Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Young Mom Poisons Lover's Drink With RAID ANT KILLER: Cops

Episode Date: August 25, 2023

Veronica Cline has a night out with friends and comes home to her daughter and the baby's father. She tells the father that she wants to enjoy drinks with him, but ultimately those drinks make the dad violently ill. After 30 minutes of vomiting, he is able to call for help. Cline has already left the home, but not before admitting to him that she has put insect killer in his drinks.  The father manages to record the confession in which Cline says she has poisoned his drinks with Raid and wished to do the same to their little girl.   Joining Nancy Grace Today: Dale Carson– High-profile Criminal Defense Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself; Twitter: @DaleCarsonLaw Caryn L. Stark– Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert, and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice Robert Crispin – Private Investigator, Former Federal Task Force Officer for United States Department of Justice, DEA and Miami Field Division; Former Homicide and Crimes Against Children Investigator; Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations, Inc. CrispinInvestigations.com, Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations, Inc. Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School Dr. Lyle D. Burgoon, Ph.D. - Toxicology Expert, President and CEO of Raptor Pharm & Tox, Ltd., and Fellow of the Academy of Toxicological Sciences; Critical Science Podcast: https://critscipod.com; Twitter/X: @DataSciBurgoon   Nicole Partin - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter; Twitter: @nicolepartin  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a fun night out on the town End up with severe stomach cramps, intense projectile vomiting, a 911 call, and a trip to the ER. How did that happen? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Well, it all starts out pretty innocently. Take a listen to this. Klein was out drinking at a bar last night when she called him saying she was coming home and wanted to have a drink with him at the house. He told him after two drinks he started feeling sick,

then throwing up for 30 minutes before he could manage to call for help. Out drinking at a bar, the lady calls the male, says she wants to have a drink with him. He agrees. She goes to his place, and then suddenly, after they have drinks at his place, he begins projectile vomiting. Vomiting for 30 minutes? 30 straight minutes? With me in all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now, but first to Dr. Kendall Crowns, the chief medical examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. Never like a business there, I'm sorry to say, Dr. Kendall Crowns, lecturer, University of Texas and Texas Christian University Medical School. Dr. Crowns, should vomiting, projectile, painful vomiting last 30 minutes? Well, not typically, but occasionally in instances in which you might have food poisoning or got a hold of a bacteria like Shigella or something along those lines.

Like what? Shigella, salmonella okay it right is shigella is it salmonella or is it something different they're different what is shigella uh they're they're bacteria that are uh associated with food that can get into your system and then they can cause basically food poisoning and can even cause well they'll cause vomiting project projectile vomiting and then eventually can cause hemorrhagic vomiting as they cause irritation in the stomach lining what is hemorrhagic vomiting your your blood bloody vomit okay shigella you said a bacteria that gets into your food could it get into your drink probably not unless you're drinking something

like that has a milk product or something along those lines so shigella is from milk products gets into your food could it get into your drink probably not unless you're drinking something like that has a milk product or something along those lines so shigella is from milk products you can get food poisoning from bad milk uh and i but not alcohol okay so what is salmonella i thought that is the bacteria you get in food and drink it's also another bacteria that's associated with food poisoning because i've never heard of shigella until right now when you say bacteria where does it come from uh it can be on your skin it can be in the whatever the uh surfaces that you're around it can be around anything it's just the dirtiness of the environment you're in that's what it's typically called as opposed to salmonella which is a bacteria that grows inside the food uh shigella salmonella can

usually be associated with growing within the food and it can also be on it can be in the environment as well let me understand something uh to nicole parton joining us crime online.com investigative reporter the victim he didn't have any food after she came over they just had drinks right that's right they just had a few drinks there was no mention of any food well do we know what the drinks were we just alcoholic beverages that's what we know because we have been covering and investigating cases for instance at these all five-star, all-inclusive resorts where people go and they go to the bar. It's typically in Mexico, by the way. They go to the bar and suddenly they get sick and die. We found out that is from illegal alcohol. Basically moonshine and these high-end resorts. I'm talking about five star

trying to cut costs will put the unauthorized alcohol moonshine made in like factories into the high-end top shelf bottles to trick customers and then they are tainted and the victims die. So there are ways to be poisoned, food poisoning, by beverage.

So if we're talking about alcohol, yes, people will mix methanol in them in the moonshine. There's often they don't properly okay dr kendall crowns i don't like interrupting you because you know so much more than me but injecting methanol what's methanol methanol is an is a is another form of alcohol but it is not digestible it breaks down into your body body into dangerous chemicals that can cause blindness and death and they'll usually be associated with vomiting as well and it's often it can be found

in the moonshines that you're referring to when they don't properly distill them instead of forming ethanol they form methanol. Okay methanol is that what's used in rubbing alcohol? What is methanol? Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol, and that also can be added in the drinks to try and... We see this in chronic alcoholics that can't get a hold of alcohol. They'll drink the isopropyl alcohol in the medicine cabinet. Okay, let me ask you a question right there. We had a couple over several years ago, and I found after they left, you know those huge bottles of the gold-colored Listerine? Have you ever seen those, Dr. Kendall Crowns? They're really big with a black top.

Well, my dad always got those, so I get them too. And they just it just tastes terrible but anyway when the couple left I was putting clean towels in the linen closet and there was an empty one of those huge containers of Listerine shoved down behind the towels I said David why did you put this in the towels he said I didn't and this was before the, so I knew they didn't do it. The Listerine also contains ethanol, actually. I forget what percentage it is, but you can get drunk drinking Listerine. Man, you must really want to get drunk to drink one of those huge bottles of Listerine.

Yeah. Okay. You know, I'm going to blame you for getting off course, Dr. Kendall Crowns. You're such a talker. You can take SprayNet and spray it into a cup and drink that as well because it'll give you alcohol. Because it's mainly alcohol. What is SprayNet? SprayNet is hairspray.

It's that classic hairspray you can get in the 80s to poop your hair up and give your rooster tail bangs and stuff like that. It's a good old-fashioned hairspray. You know, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I never know what I'm going to get. I guess it's like a box of chocolates when I come to you with a question. Joining me also, Dr. Lyle D. Bergoon, Ph.D, toxicology expert, present CEO of Raptor. Oh, as in the dinosaur. Raptor Farm and Tox LTD, fellow of the Academy of Toxicological Sciences, talks at truthblog.com. Dr. Bergoon, what about the fact that this woman goes out a mom i might add to a baby

is having a great night on the town she doesn't want the night to end she comes home to meet the guy they have a few drinks and all of a sudden he starts projectile vomiting it's not he wasn't sick before she got there. So it's not like the chicken pot pie he had for dinner four hours before made him sick. I mean, I'm just a JD. You're the MD. You and Dr. Kendall Crowns. But it seems to me like she and that drink is somehow connected. I mean, if it was food poisoning from supper he may have had several

hours before why did it manifest in this very aggressive manner after she gets on the scene yeah i agree it's um you know when we do a causal analysis in toxicology investigations you know such as this one the first question we ask is the but four question which you're obviously very familiar with because that's the same thing we present in court, right? And so we would ask the question, you know, but-for, this woman coming in, was he projectile vomiting? Probably not. You know, and given, you know, like you said, food poisoning is generally pretty quick and onset.

You know, he drinks two drinks and all of a sudden his projectile vomiting. It's highly unlikely he would ever get to the levels of alcohol poisoning to cause that kind of effect. Is this Dr. Burgun talking or Dr. Crowns? Dr. Burgun. So to both of you doctors' question, alcohol poisoning, I think, is something that occurs over the ingestion of many, many drinks. But this was really quick. Nicole Parton, didn't he just have two drinks? He had about four drinks, and it was after the last two that he became very sick. But it was in a very short time frame.

Within about an hour, all of this went down. Guys, take a listen now to our friends at WESH. We noticed a can of Raid sitting in the driveway of the couple's home, and deputies shared a picture of the spray found inside. The victim told deputies he had to wait nearly 30 minutes before he could call 911 for help. I don't like the sound of that. When EMTs arrive, they see a can of Raid sitting in the driveway of the couple's home. I don't know. You know, isn't there Raid that can kill outdoor bugs like ants? crime stories with nancy grace robert crispin joining me private investigator catch this former federal task force officer for the u.s department of justice dea the miami field division

former homicide detective now at Crispin Special Investigations. And you can find them at CrispinInvestigations.com. This is in your neck of the woods in the Florida jurisdiction. And there are a lot of bugs down there because of the semi-tropical weather. So a lot of people using Raid outdoor spray for ants or outdoor bugs, I guess, is pretty common, right? Yeah, I mean, listen, it's not uncommon to find different pesticides, Raid or anything when you get to somebody else's house. But as the scene starts to unfold, and you see the, you know, you start talking to your victim, and you find that it's a rapid onset.

And clearly, he wasn't feeling bad when she got home. He wasn't feeling bad when she said, let's have a cocktail. It wasn't like, oh, I'm getting sick. I don't feel good. No, it's like, yeah, come on home. Let's have a cocktail. And then the rapid onset, the violent throwing up. Then he gets to 911 and they arrive.

As this unfolded, they started to put this together. And where's the girlfriend? Hmm. I haven't heard any mention of her yet. What I'm saying, you're a PI. When I go to a crime scene, I look around, seeing raid outside the home in the driveway in a buggy area that's semi-tropical. That would not raise a concern for me. It's not as if she had Drano sitting on the kitchen counter not at all guys

take a listen to our our cut 18 wait for it our friends at KCAL her husband is a doctor as well and his name is Jack Chen he has videos from July 11th 18th 25th, allegedly showing his wife in their kitchen with a big bottle of Drano. Now, according to Jack Chen's lawyer, in one of the clips, you can see Chen's wife removing a piece of saran wrap that was placed over Chen's lemonade drink. She then pours Drano allegedly into that cup and puts the saran wrap back on top. That's not all. Take a listen to our cut 16. Our friends at ABC 7 take a listen to what Drano did to this otherwise loving husband and father. Radiologist Jack Chen says he noticed a chemical taste in his drinks in March. He set up a hidden camera in their kitchen capturing video evidence of his wife Yu Yu allegedly taking Drano from under the sink

and pouring it into his lemonade in three separate instances in July. A doctor diagnosed Chen with two stomach ulcers, gastritis, and esophagus inflammation. Okay so in that case with Dr. Chen the Drano is sitting right there on the counter and caught on a video cam underneath the counter. And on that recording that thank heaven the husband set up because he became suspicious. He had a wide pan shot of the kitchen. Then he had a camera under the sink, under the sink counter, and you see the wife's hand reach in and get the Drano and take it out, pour it in the drink, sit it on the counter. To you, Dr. Lyle D. Bragun joining us. Dr. Bragun, Drano, what would that do to your insides? Drano is pretty nasty.

It's a very caustic base, which means it has a really high pH. And what's going to happen is it's going to burn all the tissues as it goes down from your mouth all the way down to your esophagus. It's going to burn all that tissue up and it's going to scar it. You're going to end up with inflammation, like I said. In the stomach, it's going to scar you you're going to end up with inflammation like i said in the stomach it's going to cause a lot of chemical reactions you know it's not uncommon these cases like they said to develop ulcers you know that's exactly what i would expect to see in this kind of case it probably would also in the short term lead to diarrhea and nausea potentially vomiting if the amount of drain is high enough.

You know, it's interesting. I covered and investigated a case. The defendant was named Lynn Turner. She had one husband die of what appeared to be a heart attack. Then a boyfriend died of what appeared to be a heart attack. Turns out she was slipping antifreeze into, I believe it was lime jello, and feeding it to them. So they, I then found out, which I had never known before, I always wondered why do pets drink antifreeze? I mean, when I smell something chemically, I don't want to ingest it. Well, I found out that antifreeze can actually have a sweet taste to it.

So to you, Dr. Kendall Crowns, it seems to me that Dr. Chin would notice he's drinking Drano. Yeah, you would think so. I mean, it would burn quite a bit as it goes down. So I would hope he would realize it. It was disguised in a lemonade drink. Yeah. So was she putting small dosages? Take a listen to our cut 17, our friend Amy Robach, GMA.

These surveillance images show the moments a California man says he was secretly poisoned by his wife. The images, part of a restraining order filing by Dr. Jack Chen against his wife of 10 years, Dr. Emily Yu. This poisoning occurred over a period of time that caused him in part to suspect his wife of 10 years, Dr. Emily Yu. This poisoning occurred over a period of time that caused him in part to suspect his wife was poisoning him. And so he placed surreptitious recording devices in the home. The 45-year-old dermatologist was placed under arrest and later released on $30,000 bail. So that poisoning was over time. So she, who, by the way, the wife was also a medical doctor, she was poisoning him a little bit at the time. So is it possible to you, Dr. Kendall Crowns, that it wasn't enough? And there he might have thought it had an odd taste, but not enough that he wouldn't drink it?

Yeah, I mean, that's possible. If she's doing the long-term game of chronic exposure to kill him, it's possible he just doesn't realize that the poison or the Drano in there, he just thinks it's an odd taste. And if she does it enough, he's just like, oh, she must do something weird with this drink. It always tastes weird, but isn't really thinking about that she's slowly poisoning him. That's actually common in the poisoners is they introduce small amounts of the material over time and don't necessarily always

do an acute situation. Karen Stark joining me, renowned psychologist, TV radio trauma expert. You can find her at karenstark.com and that's with a C in case you're trying to find her. Karen, I was just going to tell you a funny anecdote. And I guess I'm happy because in this case, the victim who doesn't want us to say his name lived. I don't have a dead body yet. It reminds me, I saw this recipe. The children, my children love, don't judge me. They love sloppy joe mix. They love it. And I put a secret

ingredient, brown sugar in it. Okay. So I found this recipe, Karen Stark, and I know you love to order out and go to fancy restaurants. Okay. But I made a sloppy joe tater tot casserole. Don't ask too many questions. What could go wrong? Quit making faces, Sydney. You wait till you have twins. Yeah, I saw you. I saw the face. Okay, it sounds good, she says. Okay. And we actually had guests over. Well, I was rushing around getting everything on the table and they had started eating and there was a little pause, but everyone cleaned their plates. I finally ate a bite. I'm like, okay, there's something really wrong with this. And there was, I think there was something wrong with the ground beef. Nobody got sick,

but it just had a peculiar taste. But because I had made it, no one said, hey, did you poison me? They ate the sloppy joe tater tot. It was a thing of beauty, Sidney. Quit laughing. The whole top was beautifully golden brown tater tots on top of a bed, a steaming bed of sloppy joe. Anyway, that said, what about the mental framework when somebody you love? I remember growing up, my mom would come in the

middle of the night if I was sick and she would give me something to drink and maybe some medicine or some chopped ice. I would never think to say, mom, turn on the light. I want to make sure you're not poisoning me. So people may taste something unusual, a tinge of something icky. But because of who's giving it to you, you would never think, they're poisoning me. That's right, Nancy. It's all about trust, right? Like your friends are at your home and they trust you. They assume that you're not going to hurt them.

And if you're in a relationship with somebody, you would assume the same thing. Right. You would just assume why would that person want to do anything to harm me? So you're drinking something that tastes bad. You're you're tasting something. You're not going to make that assumption. me is Dale Carson, high profile criminal defense attorney, also in the Florida jurisdiction where this went down. Former FBI agent, former police officer with Miami Dade, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. And you can find him at DaleCarsonLaw.com. Dale Carson, I mean, when the EMTs arrive, they see a can of Raid sitting outside the home. As Robert Crispin and I discussed, it's a semi-tropical area. A lot of people, not me, but a lot of people use very, gosh, I want to say harsh, aggressive type of bug sprays to get rid of the bugs so they don't come in the house. I get it. So being in Florida, being that this man and woman were intimately familiar with each other, what's the reason to suspect her? Well, we had this happen to an FBI agent in Atlanta when I was there. And his wife over a period of time as one of your other speakers indicated poisoned him

and he she found a root doctor to give her the necessary material in order to put it in his food and over about a six-month period he ultimately got to the point where he was dreaming and having nightmares, at which point the two assassins came into the house and actually shot him. And so I'm familiar with that process, and it's deadly as hell. And you wonder why people would quietly do things like this. He happened to survive. He took a hit directly in the chest that went through the inner space between his sternum and his lungs and missed every vital organ. But he was lucky to survive and would have obviously responded to the attack had he not been drugged or poisoned as it were. So what I'm saying here is that there's not cause for alarm yet.

This could be Shigella. This could be Salmonella. The raid can is easy explainable, but why was the onset so quick after she arrives? Take a listen now to our friends at WESH. Deputies were called to Klein's DeLeon Springs home about 4.30 a.m. by her boyfriend, who also lives here with the couple's year-old child. The boyfriend told deputies Klein came home from a bar and asked the victim to continue drinking with her. According to the report, the victim said he consumed two alcoholic beverages when he began feeling sick.

So it was just two beverages. Okay, there's a little confusion on that. Was there two or were there were there two or were there four? But the plot thickens. Take a listen now to our friends at WKMG. She's trying to come up to me right now and she's going to our daughter right now. I need to get off of her. He tells deputies Klein told him what she used to poison his drinks and that she wished to do the same to their daughter. And more from Wesch. The suspect allegedly told him she added Raid Roach Spray to his last two beverages and that she wished to do the same to their child. According to the deputies, the victim said the bug spray made him so sick

he was vomiting for half an hour. Prolonged vomiting, pain. Straight back out to Nicole Parton, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Nicole Parton, it's a miracle that he was able to call 911. But did I understand that correctly, that she said she also wanted to poison the baby? That's right. And he was able to actually have the mindset to hit record on his telephone. And he has this entire conversation recorded while he's fighting for his life vomiting. She says, yes, I poisoned you with the raid roach killer. and I want to do the same thing to our child.

It's amazing to me that he had the wherewithal to punch the record button. You know, Karen Stark, I've read stories and actually interviewed people that get an amazing burst of energy when it comes to saving their child, even lifting a car, one person lifting a car or some daring feat. You get that adrenaline. You get that inspiration. For yourself, you may not have it. But when she allegedly tells him, I'm doing the same to the baby. He somehow dragged himself to the phone

and called 911. Have you ever seen anything like that? Personally, I haven't, but it doesn't surprise me because now you're talking about just not his own death and his need to survive, but a child. And that is going to give him tremendous amounts of courage and we know that adrenaline it really comes forward in that kind of a crisis it's a fight or flight and he fought everything began unfolding very quickly take a listen to our friends at west news and after deputies arrived they say the victim became sick again and was ultimately taken to the hospital. Put your hands up. Put your hands up. Do it now. Suspect Klein had left the house before deputies got on scene, but a canine unit located her a block or so away.

Show me your hands. Walk towards me now. Walk towards me. Walk towards me walk towards me talking show her hands do it now show me your hands pocket put your hands up put your hands up do it now hands up put your hands up show me your hands walk towards me now walk towards me walk towards me stop stop right there get on your knees stay right there right here watch watch Do not move. You're good. Howdy, good boy. Good soup, buddy. Good boy. Howdy, good dog.

Emergency traffic. I'm talking to you. Wait, I'll find that Batman. Alpha 317, what's the situation? Good boy. Howdy, good dog. Good soup, buddy. Good boy.

Good soup. Did he bite you anywhere? Um, just on my knee. Okay. All right. Yeah, I should have looked at him. Perfect. Okay. good soup did he bite you anywhere okay all right okay you know right there I love the officers tone of voice he's like get on your knees get on your knees show your hands good boy good boy good boy you're great dog did he bite you anywhere just the way he is responding to her versus the dog okay Nicole Parton I guess when you're dealing with a defendant that you think just poisoned the father of her child with raid bug spray you don't know if she's going to pull out a knife or a gun from god only knows where on her body and start shooting. What happened?

Absolutely. And when she heard him making that 911 call, she ran. She went out the door and she ran and was trying to get away and hide in the bushes. Of course, when the police arrived and heard what was happening, they immediately went after her and had to treat her as a perpetrator. She had potentially, allegedly, tried to kill someone, so they had to go after her. Where does the dog fit into this scenario? The lead investigator,

the policeman who came out on the 911 call, called for backup and said, hey, she's ran. There's a victim here. The alleged perpetrator's on the run. They called for backup. They brought in the canines, and they found her.

To Dale Carson, high-profile criminal defense attorney, joining us out of the Florida jurisdiction at DaleCarsonLaw.com. You know, in many jurisdictions, the judge in a case no longer gives a jury an instruction on flight. In other words, if someone runs from the scene or bond forfeits, to me, that's an indication of guilt. Why else would they leave? But you can still argue it to the jury in your closing argument. That doesn't look good. When your lover, your sweetheart, the father of your child is desperately ill, he's the one that calls 911-1-1 to get help and the minute he does you run and hide in the bushes classic classic textbook example of flight as indication of guilt i mean when i see a cop i don't go and hide in a bush right well that would ruin the defendant's

effort at any kind of argument that she wasn't guilty or not involved. When you have someone who's sick, everyone, and particularly on a jury panel, expects you to call for help instead of fleeing the scene, which tells us that she is, that's clearly an indication of guilt. To Dr. Lyle D. Bragoon, toxicology expert. Dr. Bragoon, what is in, well, first of all, how did you decide? Were you a little boy when you said, I want to be a toxicologist? I'm all about poison. When did you decide you wanted to focus on toxicology? You know, it's a funny story. When I was a little boy, I wanted to be a game show host. I was inspired by Bob Barker, I guess. Now in college, that's when I decided that I was

really fascinated by poisons and how they work and how they operate in the body. And I was inspired by my mother who had chemical induced diabetes. And so that's really, I was trying really hard to understand how she got chemical-induced diabetes. And that's when I decided to become a toxicologist. Wow. How did she get chemically-induced diabetes? It's kind of an interesting thing. Back when my mom was around, it was very common to give steroids orally, as opposed to inhalation like we do today to control asthma so she had asthma she was given oral steroids and the corticosteroids in particular what happens is those actually activate your fight or flight response which increases your

blood sugar and because she was taking these chronically, her blood sugar was chronically high, which then eventually causes the pancreas to not work properly, causes diabetes. And then eventually, you know, if she had lived long enough, she would have become insulin dependent as well. Wow, that's an incredible story. And just know deep down inside, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I'm coming to you next on why you wanted to become a medical examiner crime stories with nancy grace dr lyle d bergoon what is in raid Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Lyle D. Burgun, what is in RAID and what does it do to your body? So RAID has, it's actually mostly mineral oil. A lot of people don't realize that.

It's about 30 to 60% mineral oil. They won't tell us exactly how much. And then just the tiniest amount, less than one percent is actually the active ingredient insecticides which are in the first room and then say for meth for him which those are the things that will actually kill the bugs those are neurotoxic neurotoxicants for the insects and so they don't have to be at really high concentrations because the insects are so tiny. So most of what's actually going to harm humans is that mineral oil. Trying to wade through what you're saying.

When you, if someone ingests raid bug spray, what does it do to your insides? If it's mostly mineral oil, not much. Well, it actually does quite a bit. Mineral oil is a little bit more irritating than most people realize. Mineral oil, medicinally, at very low concentrations, is used if you have constipation. It'll form a water-tight film around the insides of your intestines, especially your large intestine, prevent the water from being absorbed by your large intestine, keeping it inside the feces so that you can then defecate easily. When you get in higher concentrations, what starts to happen is it starts irritating the small intestine

and a little bit of the stomach, and it'll activate your brain to start vomiting because it sees the mineral oil as a harmful toxin. Okay. See? Did not know that. You're hearing Dr. Lyle D. Burgun. Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us, Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County, that's Fort Worth. Dr. Kendall Crowns, you have autopsied literally thousands, thousands of patients. First of all, why did you become a medical examiner? Well, my dad taught criminology. And so I was always kind of around, you know, forensic investigations and things of that nature. And when I was a kid, I wanted to be a doctor. He told me about forensic pathology and introduced me to one of the local medical examiners.

I saw my first autopsy when I was in ninth grade. On a human? Yes, on a human, yes. I kind of wish I didn't know that, but it makes me like you even more that you did your first autopsy. At what age did you say? It was ninth grade, so 13, 15. It was just fascinating to me. What do you make of this?

I mean, it's on tape. The guy had the wherewithal to push record much. It reminds me of the little girls in Delphi, Abby and Libby, who recorded their killer saying, down the hill, down the hill, and probably more that we don't know about yet. But how does your mind keep working, the fight or flight response, you do anything you can to survive. So people can do quite amazing things in these situations to keep going and to keep their wits about them to help them survive. So even recording it, he's trying to survive.

I've seen people do any number of things in an attempt to survive. Even people who hang themselves will clutch at the rope to try and get it off their neck before they die. So the mind is an incredible thing and it often wants to preserve itself. Nobody wants to die. Take a listen to our cut three. This is Molly Reed, WKMG. Veronica Klein is now being held here in the volusia county jail without bond now the victim told deputies that he had to wait 30 minutes after he was poisoned to call 9-1-1 29 year old klein in court this afternoon now facing a charge of poisoning with

intent to kill there's no way i would release this client on just supervised release. Here's Klein over to be set at no bond. I cannot believe this woman has walked out of jail, no bond, ROR, released on her own recognizance. Karen Stark, got a question for you. Have you ever heard the catch-all phrase that, the question, why do men like crazy women? Why don't they like women that have a job and they're responsible? What is it about pure crazy that would attract someone?

Because this woman already had two priors for wielding a knife. Yes, for wielding a knife. Why would he stay with her? Well, the thing that's hard for us to understand, Nancy, but happens to be true in many cases, is that crazy women are very exciting. And men are attracted to the fact that they're outgoing, exciting. They say things that, wow, I can't believe she said that. Isn't that something nobody else would say? Because she's crazy. Yeah. And it happens much more often than you would

think because they've never encountered anything so exciting and they have no idea what they're in for. Adele Carson, some people call it exciting. I find it tedious and irritating to make one bad choice after the next. And especially when you have children, why would you want to be with someone like that that's making one bad decision after the next that's had trouble with the law, wielding a knife for Pete's sake, and exposing that person to your children. I mean, you see it all the time where one person in the relationship is charged with a violent crime and the other person has gone along for the ride. We see this constantly in domestic violence cases in Florida.

And I can simply tell you that it has an impact on everyone around that family. The parents, the grandparents, the children particularly get damaged. Florida has started charging individuals in those cases with child abuse. So if you get charged with fighting in front of your family and there's a child in the room, you're going to get tagged with child abuse as well. So it's very, men, in my experience, are often very short-sighted when it comes to selecting women that they'd like to be involved with. Involved with. Well, that's certainly one way of putting it. You're certainly putting. Put it mildly.

Involved with, i.e. sleep with. Okay, Jill Carson, for once you put perfume on the pig, but I saw right through that. Nicole Parton, I'm looking at this woman. You would never know that she is capable of poisoning the father of her baby with Raid, Ant, and Bug Spray. Why is she out on bond, and what happens next?

I just checked on her as we're speaking and she is actually still in custody. She is being held without bond. Oh, so that changed. I'm glad to hear it. And that's where she needs to stay until this goes to trial. We wait as justice unfolds. If you know or think you know anything about suspect Veronica Klein, age 29, out of DeLeon Springs, Florida, dial 386-248-1777. Whatever you do, don't give her a job in the jailhouse kitchen. Goodbye, friend.

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