Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Young Mom 'VANISHES' on Cross Country Trip: Where is Katie?

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

Katie Ferguson and Adam Aviles Jr. have been involved in a relationship for several years and share two daughters. When Katie and Adam separate, Adam stays in Cody, Wyoming. Katie and the girls move in with Katie Ferguson's mother, Mona Hartling, in Dothan, Alabama. After spending the summer with her mother, Katie Ferguson reaches out to her ex, Adam Aviles Jr. She wants the girls to have time with their dad. Katie Ferguson tells her family that Adam has really "grown up" since they have been apart. Adam starts the round-trip drive from Wyoming. On their drive back, Aviles, Ferguson, and their girls draw the attention of local police. They are sitting in a parking lot with the front passenger door open on their Dodge Durango. A Trumann, Arkansas police officer asks how they are doing. Katie Ferguson tells the officer they are a bit tired but fine. Four days later, the Dodge Durango, with Adam Aviles Jr. behind the wheel, is captured by a Texas DPS patrol camera. Two things are noticeably different from the police encounter in Arkansas.  Katie Ferguson is not in the vehicle and, there is a projectile hole in the front passenger door concealed with tape. Where is Katie? Click here for a GoFundMe page, set up to help with family with expenses as the search for Katie continues. Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Mona Hartling -  Mother of Katheryn “Katie” Ferguson Alen Ferguson - Brother of Katheryn “Katie” Ferguson  James Shelnutt – Attorney – The Shelnutt Law Firm, P.C.; 27-year Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective and Former S.W.A.T. Officer; Twitter: @ShelnuttLawFirm Dr. Shari Schwartz– Forensic Psychologist (Specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy); Author: “Criminal Behavior” and “Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology;” Twitter: @TrialDoc  Justin Boardman – Retired Detective, West Valley City Police Department Special Victim’s Unit, Boardman Training & Consulting “Turtleman” Chris Adams – Swamp Survival Expert; Facebook: Wiregrass Ecological & Cultural Project/ TikTok: @GAturtleman Nicole Partin - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter; Twitter: @nicolepartin  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous young mom, just 33, goes on a cross-country trip. How do you just disappear, vanish into thin air? Her family keeping up with her as she goes, but now the big, big question, where is Katie. But right now, we have a major clue. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories and on Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to this. During the drive, Adam Avelis, Katie Ferguson, and their girls draw the attention of Arkansas police. A slight drizzle trickles as the family sit in a parking lot. At 11 a.m., a Truman, Arkansas police officer startles Katie as he approaches the car.

Katie can be seen in the body cam footage folding baby clothes. A toddler climbs in the front seat area between her parents. The officer asks how they are doing. Katie Ferguson tells the officer they are a bit tired, but when the officer asks to see some id katie says hers is in a bag in the back adam available starts asking questions did someone call the police on them is arkansas an id state available bristles at being asked for id he tells the officer they aren't doing anything wrong and here comes the clue. Just before Katie seemingly vanishes, and remember that the cop approaches them, not because they did anything wrong, but because he sees the car, folding up baby clothes. And he's asking, hey, what's going on? Why is your door open?

And we have the body cam footage. We can see her. We can hear her. I want you to see it and hear it with me. Take a listen. How you guys doing? What are you guys up to? Say it again. Trying to clean up and head over to Jonesboro. No, you do it.

Okay. Well, I was just seeing the door open and looked suspicious, so I had to come check it out. So are you guys out of Wyoming? Yeah, we're going back. You're going back? Yeah. Do you guys have a, I don't know, a car?

No, we're going back. You're going back? Yeah. Do you guys have a car? No, we're going back. No, we're going back. No, we're going back. No, we're going back.

No, we're going back. No, we're going back. No, we're going back. No, we're going back. No, we're going back. No, we're going back. No, we're going back. So are you guys out of Wyoming? Yeah, we're going back. You're going back? Yeah. Do you guys have an ID or anything? Yeah. Arkansas?

ID state? Arkansas and ID state? Yeah, I can't tell you how many times when I was in the district attorney's office, I'll be riding along to find a witness or whatever, and a cop will ask somebody for ID, and the first thing they say is, why? They don't just get out of the ID and show it. They always say, why? And, of course, in America, you can do that.

You know, you go to Russia or China, you get clubbed. But here, you say, why do you want, you go to Russia or China, we get clubbed. But here you say, why do you want my ID? And that's what he did. But as you can hear the children in the car playing, everything's fine. She's sitting in the front seat, folding baby clothes. We see her, we hear her all as well. Listen to this. Say it again. Is it an ID? Well, I just need to verify you. Listen to this. I was driving right here and I see you guys. So. Yeah, then I won't. If it's not, if Arkansas isn't a must-see. Do you have your ID on you?

Um, I don't. I know you're wearing a wallet. Just a second. What's your name? Catherine. Catherine. Um, Ferguson. Catherine.

Ferguson. Ferguson? Yeah. Out of Wyoming? Let him get his back. Well, he's right. This is her boyfriend talking. He's right.

Joining me is Katie's mother, Mona Hartling, and her brother, who contacted us on Facebook about his missing sister, Alan Ferguson. But first, a James Sheln, high profile lawyer out of Alabama, 27 years Metro major case, including SWAT. Now the lead at the Shelnut law firm, James Shelnut. Now remember we're not in L1 crim law. Just give me a yes, no. Under USV Terry, cops can stop and ask for ID if they see anything suspicious. And I'm telling you what, if they didn't ask for ID, we'd all be three inches up their tailpipe right now because you've got two children in the car. You've got a guy who doesn't want to show you his ID. You've got a woman who says, yeah, it's in the back in one of those bags. The cop is not going to go through the diaper bag looking for the ID.

But when you have children in the car, you have to find out why are you pulled over? Who are these children? Are they your children? What's happening? There's nothing wrong with what the cop did. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. They did exactly what he was supposed to do. He was investigating a suspicious situation and he did exactly what protocol is, probably followed his policy, followed the law. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Guys, we've got more body cam footage

and it's not relevant really about their ID or why they had the door open. They obviously were taking a breather from driving and folding clothes and getting the children situated. What I'm looking at is her, her. That's all I care about, her, Katie. What is her demeanor? Does she look like she's in any danger? Is there some problem?

We've got one more little bit of body cam. Let's look at it. We've been at a little bit of body cam. Let's look at it. How long have you guys been here in Truman? Just one night, yeah. You guys just passing through? Yes, yeah. Yeah, an officer came to the dollar store. What are you guys doing over in this area? Am I like traveling this way? You guys family or? Yeah. She lived with John in Alabama. Say it again. I was with my family and then he came up. Where's your family? Jonesboro? No, no, no, no. It's all the way like way down like towards Florida and stuff. And his um, I took the girls for a while and we separated for a while and then we

came back together. So he drove down to see me and we decided to get back together and take care of the girl so yeah this is just the way from cody walk alabama yeah i know i know where to be here all right all right uh a cop says all right and walks away and And, you know, I heard one thing. I don't know if you could hear it, but I have the transcription, so it was easier for me to hear it. And I would always do that with juries. Whenever there's anything they're supposed to hear, like a tape recording, and there's not an audio visual or they can't see it, I always do a transcription so they can read it

as they're hearing it. The cop says exactly, the boyfriend says it's away from Cody and Katie Ferguson says, I don't want to be here. I find that really interesting. Okay, joining me,

Mona Hartling, this is Katie's mother who has led an insane, desperate search to find her daughter. Alan Ferguson is her brother, who first alerted us to her disappearance. Ms. Hartling, thank you for being with us. Did you know that your daughter was going on this trip with the boyfriend and the children. Did you know they were heading across country? I did. Why did they decide to take the trip? It's the cycle of abuse. We came down here to start afresh, me and the babies and Katie, to get away from Adam.

We were in a safe house in Powell, Wyoming, which is next to Cody. Once we left the safe house, we saw him everywhere we went in Cody, Wyoming. So we started fresh down here in Alabama. We were down here a few months and just the cycle of abuse is why I believe she reached out to Adam. And the three-year-old, at the time she was three, wanted to talk to Daddy. Got it. Wanted Daddy. I understand. Joining me, an all-star panel in addition to Katie's mother and brother, Alan Ferguson, Katie's brother. When did you first realize Katie was missing?

You know, we hadn't talked in about maybe a month or so. And my mom had called me basically saying, you know, I'm worried about your sister. We haven't heard from her. I continued. So I got on Instagram and Snapchat and that's how we normally talk. And so I kept messaging her over and over and over and message her on Facebook and tried to call her a thousand times and nothing happened. And eventually I was over and back in Wyoming uh Adam and Katie's house I've I've been privy to plenty of times where Adam had been screaming at Katie and you know he's told her many of times that uh you know he wanted to dispose of her and take the kids and I would be there to stand up for her.

My mom would be there. And it was just a cycle of the same thing over and over. And I would tell her to leave. But during that moment, when my mom texted me that, I just knew deep down that something was seriously wrong. Hold on just a second. I want to circle back to that moment when the cop approached their car in Arkansas, in Truman, Arkansas. When he saw that car door open, we see her, we hear her, and everything is seemingly fine. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now, a longtime colleague and who I consider a friend, Chris Adams,

also known as the Turtle Man. He is a survival expert. And I believe this guy. As a matter of fact, I took the twins, my children, down to see the Okefenokee, one of the biggest swamps in the world. And Chris Adams, I trusted him. And I got on the boat with him and the children and we went through the swamp and we hadn't been out there five minutes before we saw 40 gators coming up from the water. That's how much I believe in this guy. Chris Adams, a.k.a. Turtle Man on Facebook, Wiregrass Ecological and Cultural Project on TikTok at Georgia Turtle Man. Chris, thank you for being with us.

This terrain, you know, I don't know if this has ever happened to you, but I've had it happen with plenty, plenty of people. I can't even count them. They're in a car with their loved one, and they get into an argument. And children, although they've changed my world, as I've told you, Chris, you put the children in the car, you're on a long trip, they're crying, they're playing, they're hungry, you get into a fight with the spouse or the partner, and things escalate. Very often somebody gets out and storms off. It happens. Did it happen here? Maybe it started that way.

I don't know that. I've got a lot of theories on what happened, but I want to talk about the terrain. Was she pushed out of the car? Was she forced out of the car? Did she get out of the car How could anyone survive at that time, November, in those conditions? What can you tell me? Would you have to be an expert like you, or could a regular civilian go out and live? I think it all depends on the scenario itself and where they actually got out of the car. We know that she was last seen in Truman, Arkansas, but going from there, I believe I heard mentioned possibly to Texarkana. They were going that way, yes. Very hilly country.

And, of course, you've got pine barrens, you've got large stands of oak and oak savanna, grassland areas, hilly, rocky, and there are rivers and creeks that go through there. As with any environment, one has to be careful where they actually walk through to avoid stepping in a hole, twisting an ankle, something like that. And depending on the terrain, whether it's easy or hard to navigate, will determine whether a person can survive there long term. And being that they were off of a major highway at some point or byway, normally you would be near some sort of civilization, people living there, housing community, farms. So it's not like we just think that she's out there in a wilderness area,

perhaps. I don't think there's enough information circulating around for me to determine that myself. I agree. But certainly between Truman, Arkansas and Texarkana, there's a lot of wide open spaces. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, it's not the swamp, of course, but the terrain you were describing. That's what I'm thinking about because best case scenario right now, she stomped out of the car. Do I think that happened? Probably not because she would not leave those children. If she left, she'd take them with her unless she got into an argument, likely started by

him, but got into an argument and she got out of the car and he takes off before she could get the children or they get an argument. He puts her out of the car or hits her. I don't know. There's a million ways this could have gone down. Was she injured when she got out of the car? Was she dumped somewhere? But how long could you survive? She hasn't turned up in anybody's home. Average temps, Arkansas, high 40s to 70s.

Could she have survived? There's been no report of her approaching someone's home, hospital, shelter, nothing. So for all I know, she's in the wilderness. I don't know where she is. She could be down a ravine. She could be anywhere. How could she live, Chris Adams? Well, this goes back to several cases I've been on you with now. And I always, this may sound like my go-to line, but hypothermia is always a real risk. It doesn't matter if it's 80 degrees outside or if it dips down into just above freezing temperatures.

If the body has moisture on it, if the air has moisture in it and temperatures drop or your body temperature drops, one can suffer from hypothermia. And as far as foraging foods and things, most of the woodland trees have dropped their mass this time of year. There's no acorns. There's nothing you can forage like that. And most people who don't have that experience don't know to look for those things. And that's just the reality of the situation here. I'm looking at her in the car the last time she was seen alive, and she's got on shorts and a t-shirt. Not conducive for this type of terrain at all. And I think she's got on socks. Socks, shorts, and a t-shirt. And like, you know, everybody that's got children in the car, the car is a jumble. Nobody knows where anything is. It's a big confusion. They're in the back seat playing and crying and trying to get into the front seat, like everybody's car when you have children in

the back seat. I'm just trying to figure out, Chris Adams, how she could make it. Again, to Mona Hartling, this is Katie, Katherine Ferguson, aka Katie's mother. When was the last time you actually spoke to her verbally? It was like the 5th or 6th of September. We know that Katie is alive and well October 5, October 5, there in Truman, Arkansas. We see her. She's fine. She's speaking to cops. How did we get here? How are these two, who obviously have a very volatile relationship, how are they in. Living in Wyoming, they share two daughters, both under five years old. Katie and Adam separate. Adam stays in Cody, Wyoming. Katie and the girls move in with Ferguson's mother, Mana Hartling, in Dothan, Alabama.

After spending the summer with her mother, Katie Ferguson wants the girls to have time with her dad. Katie Ferguson tells her family Adam has really grown up during their four-month separation. Adam starts the round-trip drive from Wyoming to pick up Katie and the girls. That is how these two end up in the car together. He, Adam Aviles, decides to go at her request to get Katie and the girls. And he starts the round-trip drive from Wyoming to pick them up.

That is how they end up in the car together. It's eerily reminiscent of another case. I think you all are familiar with the case of Gabby Petito. Take a listen to Hour Cut 21. How's it going? How are we doing? Good. Hey, we got a call about a male hitting a female and the two of them getting in this vehicle and taking off. I don't want to try and defend myself by saying anything here, but I pushed her away. She gets really worked up and when she does, she swings and she had her cell phone in her hand,

so I was just trying to push her away. But Gabby but Gabrielle, don't let go, I'm sorry. And more in 24. I told them to drive, we couldn't get water because I was getting thirsty. Yeah? Is there something on your cheek here? Looks like, did you get hit in the face? Um. Kind of looks like something like hit you in the face. And then over on your arm shoulder right here that's new

huh it's kind of a new mark oh yeah i don't know can i see the other side of your face so what happened here and here um i i'm not sure it was so the backpack got on the back. The Alpha Unicorps? Yeah. So the backpack got you? I just wonder if that Truman, Arkansas cop, suspected abuse. He spoke to both of them. He looked in the car. He asked for ID.

He asked her, is everything okay? What's happening? Where are you from? Where are you going? But there was nothing he could hang his hat on. And Gabby Petito, there was. Two witnesses had seen Brian Laundrie beating her in the face. You heard earlier our friend Chris Adams, Turtle Man, talking about other cases we've worked on together.

That's one of them. He was seen beating her in the face, yet they told him he had done nothing wrong within hours. Gabby was dead. Did this cop in Truman, Arkansas, have a sixth sense? You'll see what I mean. Take a listen to our Cut 7 Crime Online, Rachel Bonilla. Four days after the police encounter in Truman, Arkansas, the Dodge Durango with Adam Avelis behind the wheel is captured by a Texas DPS patrol camera.

Two things are noticeably different from the previous police encounter. Katie Ferguson is not in the vehicle, and there's a projectile hole in the front passenger side door concealed with tape. Body cam footage from Arkansas clearly shows there is no hole in the passenger side door. The front passenger seat of the car has a pile of clothes on it. Two days later Avelis is stopped again this time by Colorado State Police and just as in Texas Adam Avelis and the two girls are present, but Katie Ferguson is missing. Back to you, Chris Adams.

It reminds me so much of the Gabby Petito case. Remember, Brian Laundrie crosses the country in Gabby's vehicle using her credit card and her cell phone and gets all the way back to Florida to his mommy's house. And then they go on a camping trip with mommy, daddy and sister. What nobody notices, Gabby's not there. Everything's there. But Gabby, is that ringing a bell? Chris Adams, remember when we just went through the whole thing with Gabby?

The answers we need aren't coming forth. And what we assume is that she went missing somewhere between Truman, Arkansas and somewhere near the Texas line. So my question to you between Truman, Arkansas and the Texas line, what's the terrain? The terrain, like I said, is very hilly. But what I just was thinking about, deer season is in in the southern Arkansas zones, there are plenty of outdoorsmen out in the woods. Any sign of something different, any person walking through the woods in those places near those major highways would be on some sort of a trail camera. There would be some evidence left behind. There are thousands of people in the woods right now in Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma, that whole area.

So something amiss would be spotted very quickly. I think you're right about that, Chris Adams. Nicole Parton joining me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Nicole, thank you for being with us. I got to make sense of what I have just heard, what Chris has told me, but also what Rachel Bonilla is reporting, four days after the police encounter in Truman, Arkansas, Adams Dodge Durango is captured by the Texas patrol camera. Two things very different. Now that could be a toll booth.

That could be a red light cam it could be any number of cameras two things very different number one Katie is not in the vehicle the body cam footage in Arkansas shows a very different scenario. The front passenger seat has a pile of clothes on it. The next time he's stopped in Colorado, just like Texas, Adam Aviles and the two girls are present, but no Katie. So she's not present in Texas on cam. She's not present in Colorado. So somewhere between Truman, Arkansas and Texas, she goes missing. Also important. What am I hearing Nicole Parton about a projectile hole in the front passenger door concealed with tape.

Right. So we know in that October footage, you've seen it, I've seen it, there's no hole in the door. We can see the door. And then the next time we have any footage whatsoever, we can see there's a hole in the passenger door and it's taped up. Now we're being told. So here's a hole, someone trying to conceal the hole and tape it up. And then we also, interesting, there's a large heap of clothing covering the passenger seat. So now we know there's clothing. We see that in the first footage. But now the whole seat is piled high, a heap, a pile of clothing in that passenger seat. Is that to hide something in the seat? Well, I don't know. How many children do you have? Ten. Okay. There's any number of reasons

that all the children's clothes are piled in the front seat. Oh, true. If you look to my minivan right now, you would see the entire front passenger floor is full of children's clothing. But there's more. I want you to hear this, and this is knocking me off my feet. Take a listen again to Rachel Bonilla. Adam Avelis and his two daughters arrive in Wyoming. They move into his father's house. He has his two girls, but Katie Ferguson is not with them. After several days of not hearing from Katie, her mother calls the Parks County Sheriff's Office in Wyoming and reports her daughter missing. The last known time Ferguson was seen was October 5th in Arkansas.

That was the same day the couple was approached in the parking lot by police. Mona Hartling, this is Katie's mother and Alan Ferguson, her brother, who is beside, they're both beside themselves, and contacted me on Facebook. Mona, tell me what led you to call police? What happened that made you contact them and report her missing? I mean, he shows up, he moves into his dad's house with the children without her. Nobody noticed she was gone. No, nobody. He didn't tell anybody that she was missing.

He didn't contact the police. He didn't contact both her sisters live there in Cody where he's at. He contacted nobody. Alan? He didn't even report the one-year-old's burns. She had second and third degree burns on her, and he kept those hid so that he didn't have to take it to the hospital or report it to the police when was that he kept the burns hid when he got back from

um his mother stacy uh she has the grandbabies they are safe she's a wonderful grandmother but when i called and had the police uh involved right away I also said those kids need to be took away from him, and they did. Within two days, they took the babies away. That poor baby had burns all over her body. And the grandmother saw the burns right away. He had kept them hidden from her with a coat. How did the baby get burns? They asked the 4-year-old, Har Harlow and she said that Everly fell in the

campfire. Campfire? Yes, they've been camping along the way. Okay, that's telling me a lot and the baby Everly fell into the campfire. Everly is one, daughter Harlow is four, is my understanding. Okay, that is changing things. Chris Adams with me, survival expert. That tells me, as I suspected, that they actually camped out on this trip. I don't know that that was intended. But the one-year-old falls into the campfire. So they, she is out there. So there again, with lack of

details, we don't know where out there is. We can assume that it is somewhere off of a major highway, be it a national park, historic site, state park, but we don't know which one. We don't know what the terrain there was. And we simply don't even begin to know where to look for them unless anybody has an idea of where they stayed at. Mona Hartling, you've just heard from police and they tell you they've got the phone records, right? Yes. That should tell us where her phone last pinged. Have they told you that yet? No.

The detective was going over it with the FBI. Also joining me, renowned in his field, former detective Justin Boardman, Utah West Valley PD, Special Victims Unit. Now, Boardman Training and Consulting. You know what I don't like, Justin? So many things. But the fact that he shows up and doesn't tell Mona or Alan or anyone in Katie's family, hey, Katie didn't make the trip back. Nothing. He just shows up and moves in to his dad's house. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. That bothers me as well.

But also what bothers me is a one-year-old that has burns, especially if the one-year-old's not able to walk yet. How did it end up in a campfire? Was there a struggle? Was there, you know, that sort of thing? Well, along that line, Justin Boardman, and you should know with all the cases you've handled, if a child gets burned at a campfire, you go at least to a dock in the box at the very least, you know, a little emergency clinic. So why would you choose not to go to the ER or the dock in a box? Why?

Because you're hiding something. Exactly, Justin. Yeah, it doesn't take a brain scientist. I'm just thinking, and Justin, please jump in whenever you have a thought. You've seen these scenarios so many times. Also joining me, Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist specializing in victim advocacy. She's at PantherMitigation.com. And on Twitter, she's at TrialDoc, at TrialDoc, author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect.

Dr. Sherry, I want you to hear this. Take a listen to investigative reporter Jackie Howard. Katie Ferguson missed her youngest daughter's first birthday. Family members say she is not one to hide and she wouldn't willingly stop talking to family. But that's not what Adam Aviles is telling police. Speaking to cops November 8th, he reportedly told officers that Katie was not missing, but she just does not want contact with her mother. And there's more being said. The Cowboy State Daily reports during an interview with the children, one of the girls tells investigators that the father accidentally

hurt her mother. You know, that's reminding me of Dr. Sherry Schwartz, and we've discussed this together before. The case of Susan Powell, Josh Powell wakes up his little boys, I think ages two and four, and takes the whole family on a camping trip at midnight in the snow. When they were later asked about where's mommy, one of them draws a picture with mommy in the car trunk. And the other tells investigators, mommy's in the crystal mines. Okay? Now we've got a child stating daddy accidentally hurt mommy.

So how does a child know how to say accidentally hurt? I'm just very curious, Dr. Sherry Schwartz. Right. Well, my educated guess is that daddy said it was an accident.

And if anybody asks, it was an accident. Daddy didn anybody asks, it was an accident. Daddy didn't mean to do it, right? And at four years old, you are completely at the mercy of the adults around you, particularly if daddy is scary and does scary things, right? So if daddy says, this is what happened, that's what you're going to say happened.

I don't think the child's lying. I think the child believes daddy because this is her daddy and why would he lie to her? Just like daddy, Josh Powell said, mommy's in the crystal mines. You know, I just want to be very clear from everything I know about this family and about Katie, there's no way she would have left her children. No way. She's left her children before one time for a couple of weeks with her mother, her mother. And joining me right now is Katie's mother and brother. And they are asking, and I am asking for your help in finding Katie. The tip line is 307-527-8710.

Repeat, 307-527-8710. And I want to go back to Katie's mother Mona Hartling and her brother Alan Ferguson Mona has she ever missed the children's birthdays? No never and ever Lee this was her first birthday she would never miss a birthday she would never walk away like this. That was her first birthday? Yes. Has she ever abandoned the children before, ever? No,

she does not. She's a good mom. All she ever wanted to be was a mother. That's all she ever wanted to be. Those babies are her heart. I want to hear about how all she wanted to be was a mother. That's all she wanted to be. She looked forward to it. Is that why she got back with Avila? Because the babies wanted Daddy? They want to talk to Daddy? I believe so. The youngest never even met her father. We had the baby since Katie was with me, and we were in the safe house when the baby was born.

Why were you in a safe house? Because of him. Why? What did he do to make you go into hiding in a safe house with Katie? The abuse got too bad. What abuse? It was physical and mental.

When you say physical, what exactly do you mean? He had jumped on her, choked her out when she was pregnant, left marks on her arms, big, big bruises. She would never report it. Why did she not report it i believe fear the abuse cycle where you want it to be like the hallmark card and you believe it to be and you want the man and typically it is the man to be the person you thought you married or you thought you had children with and you believe it so much you're ready to stake everything on it,

including your life. You mean that cycle? It takes up to seven times for an abused victim to finally leave their abuser, and sometimes that doesn't even happen. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, how is it, and I've not only prosecuted domestic homicides and aggravated assaults more than I can count. I worked at the Battered Women's Center for nine years on the hotline. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, how is it that we, particularly women, have this in our heads

so strongly and we want that nuclear family to be perfect, that we are willing to suspend disbelief and continue in an abusive relationship? How does this happen? Well, there's a number of reasons. I mean, there's a very complex concept that I'll make very simple called the trauma bond. And basically, when it's really good, the relationship, it's the best ever, right? And all of your positive emotions and positive hormones are flowing. And when it's really bad, it's bad. But you know that that is followed up by the really good. And so the really good positively reinforces the bad because you know the good is coming.

But there's other factors as well. I mean, one of the most basic is you love this person. You want to believe the best of them. You want your children to have their father, their other parent in their life. You may have money issues, so you can't leave that person. So there are so many factors. And Alan is absolutely correct. It takes five to seven times. And when a victim is trying to leave their abuser, as you know, Nancy, as a prosecutor, that is the most dangerous time for them. And I heard Mona Hartling, her mother, say

that he, quote, choked her out when she was pregnant. The number one cause of death of pregnant women, and I couldn't believe this when I heard it. I had to look it up in the New England Journal of Medicine. It's homicide. Number one cause of death of pregnant women is homicide. I thought it would be a stroke or a heart attack or something to do with the pregnancy itself. No, it's not. And I couldn't believe it until I looked it up myself. Well, the very best of the relationship and the very worst of the relationship. Take a listen to our cut, 11, Sidney Sumner, Crime Online. On November 4th, someone reports Adam Avila's Dodge Durango as abandoned in Park County. Deputies investigate and find not only has the front passenger seat been removed, there is a projectile hole through the passenger door.

Officers find a loaded Glock 45 pistol magazine and Clorox wipes. They say the car smells of putrefied blood. As deputies are still investigating, Adam Aviles walks up to the car with a gas can, telling deputies the Durango ran out of gas and wasn't operable. Nicole Parton, do I understand this correctly? A projectile hole through the passenger door, a loaded Glock 45 pistol mag, and Clorox wipes. And the car smells, according to police, like putrefied blood. Right, that's correct. And the front passenger seat is missing. The seat's not even

in the truck anymore. It's missing. Also, it's reported that there were clothes and rags that were covered in blood and a lot of cleaning supplies in the back of the truck. It is hearkening back, hearkens me back to the case of missing mom of five from Connecticut, Jennifer Dulos. When cops finally get a hold of the car that her husband, Fotis Dulos, had borrowed, the back seat had been removed and replaced with a different type of back seat. Let me go now to mom, Hartling and brother Alan Ferguson. Alan, what do you think has happened? I'm going to go first, Mom, or do you want me to talk?

You go ahead, son. I truly believe that he has done something to her with the evidence they have so far. We know the blood has came back as human blood. We don't have the DNA test back, but we do know it's human blood. Me and my sister were very close. Me and Katie were raised by my mother and my other two sisters were raised by my father. And, uh, so we were just always very, very close. And, um, I heard about it.

I just knew that, uh, she wasn't with us. It's not that I don't want to give up hope or, um, anything like that. Um, it's just something that you can feel. And then when the evidence came out more and more, I do believe that he did something with her. I believe the fire has something to do with it. I believe that he possibly disposed of her in some way. I believe it was he disposed of her in water. Why do you think that?

Mother's gut instinct. And my son also is. And we've had dreams. I know that sounds kind of ridiculous. It doesn't sound ridiculous to me at all. Dreams of her coming up out of a riverbank, not a sandy spot, a river bank and walking on a dirt path. And there's a campfire. Um, and she, her arms are open and she's just coming to me over and over mom, mom, mom. And she's deceased and there's like moss in her hair. And, uh, yeah, I believe he did something. My son has also had dreams. I don't, she's not with us anymore.

He's with her. Yeah, he's definitely, she's, I truly believe she's no longer with us I also want people just to know How much of a beautiful person she was And how goofy she was And how amazing and sweet and kind Yes You know, she's not just another domestic violence victim

She was a real person She was such a beautiful kind person. And then just, uh, just a really, really amazing sister. She, um, was a mother. She was a sister. She was a daughter. She was an auntie. There's a hole inside that will never be replaced.

I want women to know they can get out of it. I've been through it too. They can get out. There is hope. You just have to make the step forward and leave. You are hearing Katie's mother, Mona Hartling, and her brother, Alan Ferguson. And I agree with them. I think that, as they put it, Katie is no justice by God. The tip line is 307-527-8710. Please help us bring Katie home. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast. Goodbye, friend.