Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Young Mom's throat slashed, almost decapitated. Tiffany Mead survives to tell cops she didn't try to kill herself.

Episode Date: October 29, 2019

Tiffany Mead sits behind the wheel of her car, discussing child support with her estranged husband. One of their children is in the backseat. In the next few moments, he slashes her throat with a knife, watching her bleed. Mead makes a desperate call to 911, initially claiming she tried to commit suicide. But at the hospital, she tells detectives what really happened.Joining Nancy Grace today to discuss the case is: Julie Rendleman, NY Criminal Defense Lawyer John Cardillo, Former NYPD officer Dr. Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst Dr. Michelle Dupree, Medical Examiner & Author of “Homicide Investigation Field Guide”  Alexis Tereschuk, Reporter at Radar Online   If you are a victim of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE and need help in the United States, contact: The National Domestic Violence Hotline [phone]-SAFE (7233)This week's podcast is sponsored by the new Wondery podcast Bad Batch. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bad-batch/id1482851200 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Today on Crime Stories, we head to Utah. and I just need to ask a few questions, okay? Okay. What did you use? Do you still have the knife with you? No, I threw it out the window. How much are you bleeding? A lot. My shirt is soaked. What's your name? Tiffany Meade.

Joining Nancy Grace, New York criminal defense attorney, Julie Rendleman, John Cardillo, formerly of the NYPD, Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. And Alexis Tereschuk from Radar Online. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. tried to commit suicide. P and I just need to ask a What do you do? Still hav

No, I threw it out the wi you bleeding? Oh wow. My your name? Tiffany need. with you? Tiffany? My hus Okay, where's your husba to him? Are you there? Yeah. Okay, is he sitting down? Yeah. Do you have a dry, clean cloth that you can apply pressure to her neck?

I got my shirt, so... Well, we need something. Are you applying pressure? Yeah, she had her hand on her throat. Okay, do you know why she did this? I don't know. And what did she use to cut her? She said she threw it out the window, did she? A knife. Okay, where's the knife right now? Somewhere down in a goalie or something. Is there an officer? You let me know when an officer shows up. Okay, we see a lot. Wave your arms and honk your horn. Honk your horn.

Is she still conscious and breathing? Okay. Okay, are they there? Okay, I'll let you go. Thank you. You are hearing a 911 call by a beautiful young mom, Tiffany Meade. As she calls 911 and says she has slashed her own throat in an attempt to commit suicide. But the brutal throat slashing of this Utah mom takes the investigation into a very, very surprising path. I'm Nancy Grace. This is

Crime Stories. With me, an all-star panel, Julie Rendelman, New York criminal defense attorney, John Cardillo, former NYPD and host of America Talks Live on Newsmax TV. We're now on psychoanalyst out of L.A., Dr. Bethany Marshall, South Carolina medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Michelle Dupree. But right now to RadarOnline.com's investigative reporter, Alexis Tereschuk. Alexis, tell me about the slash to this young Utah mother's throat. Well, police really were very suspicious from the very beginning because this slash was straight across her throat. And it was really deep.

And they knew that when they have seen other people that have tried to commit suicide this way or have done this to themselves, that it would never be so straight, it wouldn't be so precise precise and it would never have gone that deep. People can't do that to themselves, they've said. So they knew. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, South Carolina medical examiner, what Alexis is saying, I don't quite get it. Explain to me the significance of the direction, the trajectory and the depth of the slash on Tiffany Meade's throat, a young mom of 22. Well, Nancy, she makes an excellent point. If someone is going to slice their own throat, depending on whether they're right-handed or left-handed, they will typically, first of all, they'll typically have some what we call hesitation marks because this hurts.

And there'll be some slashes that are very superficial. And then if they're very determined, they will actually cut deeper. But when we cut, we're not going to cut it straight across as in this case. We're typically going to hold the knife in a direction where it'll be a little bit behind the ear, slanting upward, and then come across the neck and then maybe upward again. And again, whichever hand you're holding the knife in, that side of the wound is going to be much more shallow simply because of the way that you have to hold the knife. And so these are things that would be readily noticeable on the victim. You know, the way you just rattled that off, Dr. Michelle Dupree,

with me, Dr. Dupree out of South Carolina, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree, could you slow that down again? Slow that down and tell me again the significance of what Alexis Torres-Chuk has just said. Sure. When someone is committing suicide with a sharp force instrument like a knife, they are either right-handed or left-handed. Typically, they will make what we call hesitation marks, which is the initial cut. And because it hurts, they'll be very superficial, but there'll be a few attempts before they actually make a deeper cut and then really do harm to themselves. In addition, whichever hand they're holding the knife with, let's say it's the right, if we take a knife or an air knife

and slice it across our neck, it's typically going to come at an angle near the ear and then go straight across and then go up again as we come to the end of that side of our neck. The side that we're holding the knife in is also going to be less deep. It's going to be more shallow because, again, of the angle of the knife. And so when we talk about the injuries that we see on Tiffany, they would be against this. They would be more lateral, more straight across, indicating that she did not do this to herself. Dr. Sheila Garvey, the Ogden Regional Hospital Emergency Room doctor, treated Tiffany and was struck by the severity of the wound, noting, as Dr. Michelle Dupree has, that most self-inflicted stab wounds

are not that deep. In fact, she nearly cut off her head. Yes, she had sliced suit. I don't even understand how she was speaking. Listen. Just before midnight on July 23rd, 2013, Deputy Sheriff Jason Sorensen, responding to an attempted suicide, found 22-year-old Tiffany Meade in her car. It was a really severe wound. Tell me where it was. It was straight across her neck, all the way across. In the car seat was her two-year-old son. Her husband, Chris Ertman, was pacing the sidewalk. He had no shirt on. I noticed he had blood all over his hands. By the time lead detective Bob Thompson arrived, Tiffany had already been rushed to the hospital. You were hearing our friend at CBS 48 Hours. That was Erin Moriarty. Listen to this.

Well, she tried to commit suicide and I helped her out. I didn't exactly help her out, but I tried to save her. I assisted in saving her. Okay. When you say her, who are you talking about? Tiffany. Tiffany? So, you had said she wanted to

meet up last night tell me about that well I was supposed to pay her child support so I thought I had my money order for it so I was going to meet up and get there and wasn't there and she's all pissed off and I told her to chill out and I don't know how it happened. She cut her throat. She has a history of being suicidal. I mean, I love her. I mean, I wouldn't hurt her just because I love her. I mean, if I wouldn't hurt her, I wouldn't try to save her life. Joining me right now out ofA., psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall. Explain to me what Dr. Michelle Dupree was describing called hesitation marks. Now, I understand what she's saying, but what do hesitation marks mean psychologically, Dr. Bethany Marshall? Because there were no, quote, hesitation marks on Tiffany

Mead. Well, with any type of suicidality, a person, unless they're extremely impulsive. Right there. What is suicidality? I've never even heard that word. Somebody who is suicidal, who wants to harm themselves, who no longer wants to be on this earth, who wants to, or we say prematurely, terminate their life, they're going to contemplate. They're going to think. They're going to plan ahead. They're not going to be in a car with their children in the back seat. First of all, just looking at the behavioral evidence, this young woman was sitting in a car. Her husband was there, her two young children,

evidently in the driver's seat, she had her hand on the steering wheel when she called 911. So right there in terms of behavior, why would you be there if you're going to kill yourself? If you're a young mom, you're going to be away from your children and have your children in a safe place. Secondly, just a part of our evolutionary biological heritage is that we human beings want to survive. So we are not going to want to slit our own throats. That is something that's not going to be natural type of behavior. So she would have had to work up a great deal of courage to commit this act, which means trying it again and again. Similar to somebody who overdoses on pills, they might drink a bunch of vodka and then take some Xanax or Ativan and then take some more pills and then take some more and then finally drift off to

sleep. They're not going to do it all in one fell swoop. It's going to take a great deal of determination, of courage, unless they're impulsive and they just sort of jump off a building or something like that. But that's not how women behave when they want to terminate their lives. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What is the address of your emergency? I'm in front of Davis High School. Okay, what's going on there? My neck's bleeding. I need help quick. What happened? I tried to bleeding. I need help quick. What happened?

I tried to commit suicide. Please help me. All right, and I just need to ask a few questions, okay? Okay. Do you still have the knife with you? No, I threw it out the window. How much are you bleeding? A lot. My shirt is soaked. What's your name?

Tiffany Meade. Okay, is anybody with you, Tiffany? My husband and my son. Okay, where's your husband? Can I talk to him? Are you there? Yeah. Okay. Is he sitting down? Yeah. Do you have a dry, clean cloth that you can apply pressure to her neck? I got my shirt. So, well, we need something. Are you applying pressure? Yeah. She had her hand on her throat. Okay, do you know why she did this? I don't know.

And what did she use to cut her? She said she threw it out the window, did she? A knife. Okay, where's the knife right now? Somewhere down in a valley or something. Is there an officer? You let me know when an officer shows up. Okay, we see the knife.

Wave your arms and honk your horn. Honk your horn. Is she still conscious and breathing? Okay. Okay, are they there? Yeah, the ambulance is right here. Okay, I'll let you go. Thank you. Wow. Once again, the 911 call by this young mom, Tiffany Mee, to report her throat has been slashed, she's bleeding profusely, and she needs help.

As a matter of fact, the emergency room doctor says she nearly cut her head off because the gash was so deep. Quote, she was critical. She just about cut off her head. That's part of what the emergency room doctor said. You know, to Alexis Tereshak, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com, I didn't understand. Her children were in the car. She tried to commit suicide in her car with her children there? Her youngest son, she had an older son

who was four. It was her two-year-old baby was in the car at the time. Okay, granted, I'm just a trial lawyer, but having studied and assessed methods of homicide and suicide for many years, I have learned that suicide and homicide as well, but suicide can be typed geographically. It can be typed more specifically to your gender, your age, even down to specifics about you. It is highly, highly unlikely, statistically speaking, that a woman will kill herself, A, in front of her child, and B, by slashing her own throat. That is statistically almost unheard of. To Dr. Michelle Dupree, you've certainly seen your fair share of dead bodies,

thousands and thousands of them to be exact. Weigh in. You're absolutely right, Nancy. Typically, women take a much less aggressive method to commit suicide. They don't like the mess and they certainly wouldn't do it in front of loved ones. In fact, many times they will actually leave a note saying, please don't let my children or my husband see me like this. This is very unusual that this would be the case. And also not only a mess such as a bloody room or carpet, the self-disfigurement is an impulse in women that very often we don't see in men,

an impulse not to do it. Men very often will commit suicide by gun, by crashing their cars, just all sorts of violent and aggressive modes. Women more likely will overdose We'll jump out a window. Poison. That's more typical of how women commit suicide. You know, what I'm noticing, John Cardillo, former NYPD and host of America Talks Live on Newsmax TV, they all seem pretty calm. Mommy's bleeding out in the front seat. Nobody seems to be upset about it. Neither her nor the husband. Yeah, I mean, that 911 call is, to me, says it all. Number one, you know, having responded to a couple of suicides, luckily one where the person didn't succeed, two where they did, one being a police officer, unfortunately, where the spouses were all present.

The spouses were hysterical doing everything. They were screaming into the phone for 911. They were trying to stop the bleeding, even in the ones that were clear fatalities. It is just beyond all logic and reason that your spouse attempts to commit suicide in that way, slicing their throat. And you see them bleeding from the neck with a gash that was almost resulted in decapitation. And you have them make the 911 call and self-implicate. I never responded to a suicide with a woman that was this violent. Typically, it was pills.

It was asphyxia after pills and alcohol. I can't ever recall a time when I responded to a woman with a knife or a gunshot wound because of the disfigurement component, the crime scene component, et cetera. Now, if this is not bizarre, take a listen to this. What's going on there? My neck's bleeding. I need help quick. Okay. What happened? I tried to commit suicide. Please help me. But Tiffany Meade knew that was a lie. She was forced to say that. Her then-husband, Chris Erdman, was sitting next to her in the car Meade was driving. Minutes earlier, Erdman used a knife to slash her throat.

He was angry because Meade wanted to leave their marriage. It was one of those fold-out knives. I remember that click, and he put his hand over my mouth, and he slit my throat. He said, don't scream. Stay calm. And if it's not already bizarre enough imagine your husband your child in the backseat your husband sitting next to you and he can't stop you from slashing your own throat so badly you nearly sever your head take a listen our friend erin moriarty he just watched me sit in

my car and believe for a while and then he leans down and he said, you know what I want. I said, okay. And he said, say it. And I said, I love you and I want to be with you. And he said, okay. And then he said, seal it with a kiss. And he leaned in my car and kissed me like nothing could happen. And so he told me that before he would allow me to call for help, that we had to come up with a story. And I told him I would say whatever he wanted me to say. I pulled out my phone and I was the one that called 911.

Okay, Alexis Tereshchuk, Bethany Marshall, John Gardillo, and Julie Rendelman. Dr. Michelle Dupree, you're great, but Dr. Bethany, I need to shrink. Did you hear that before her throat was slashed, he forced her to kiss him and avow her love for him? Nancy, this is so bizarre, so terrifying. It's so disturbing. I almost am afraid to wade in and analyze this, but I have to hold on to the concept of psychopathy, that this guy is a psychopath. And we know with that personality disorder that whenever they get their feelings hurt on some pathological level, of course, not like you or me, that they have this cold,

calculated, revengeful interior. And all they want to do is slash and burn. And he did not slash her throat because he wanted her back. He slashed her throat because he wanted to see her bleed. Let's be clear about that. Because he wanted to have power over her. He wanted to terrify her. He wanted to be in the ultimate position of authority where she would do whatever he wanted her to do. This guy had been plotting and planning revenge. I'm sure, I don't know what had been happening in the prior year. I wouldn't be surprised if he had been stalking her, trying to hurt her in other ways, trying to be revengeful, maybe financially withholding perhaps child support checks. I

know that she had met him there so that she could get her child support check. So that suggests that he was withholding the check as a form of power over her too. But this guy is just a pure evil psychopath. That's the only way to understand it. This is ABC for Salt Lake City, Utah's Marcos Ortiz. Ertman used a knife to slash her throat. He was angry because Meade wanted to leave their marriage. It was one of those fold-out knives. I remember that click and he put his hand over my mouth and he slipped my throat and he said, don't scream, stay calm. And I didn't scream. That's because inside her car was their two-year-old son. She had no idea if he was watching, so she didn't scream. I didn't want the last thing.

If Noah remembered me, if I died, I didn't want the last thing if Noah remembered me if I died, I didn't want the last thing he remembered of me was his mother screaming that she died using her hands. She says Earthman kept her arms down, preventing her from stopping the bleeding. She finally caved in and told Earthman she wouldn't leave him.

Earthman agreed to let her drive to get help, but told her to say she tried committing suicide. He was at her side as she fought for leave him. Ertman agreed to let her drive to get help, but told her to say she tried committing suicide. He was at her side as she fought to stay alive. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Police and paramedics arrived and took Meade to the hospital. Then the truth came out.

I let them know Chris did this to me. He tried to kill me and I told him to save my baby. Erkman was brought in for questioning. Detectives checked the wounds on his hands and photographed him for their records. Chris, why are you here tonight? Well, she tried to commit suicide and I helped her out and I tried to save her. I love her. I mean, I wouldn't hurt her. Joining me right now, renowned New York criminal defense attorney,

Julie Rendelman. Julie, how in the world can a defense be mounted for this guy, Christopher Ertman? Well, here's the thing. I mean, you know, the argument is, you know, that you have now two conflicting stories.

You have his version, which is that she flashed herself. You have her original version, which is that she flashed herself. And so, you know, a defense attorney at that point, without knowing more, because we know that there's much more to this case that we eventually find out, is going to use that to at least create that aspect of they have not proven this case beyond reasonable doubt. And the other issue is whether or not he intended to kill her versus intended to injure her. I think those aspects are another thing that the defense would potentially hone in on if they felt that they couldn't get past the notion that he had been the one who stabbed her. Well, Julie Rendelman, everyone joining me out of Manhattan, a renowned criminal defense attorney out of New York, Julie Rendelman.

What about his 911 call? I've played it twice for you. He doesn't sound upset. He doesn't sound excited. He doesn't sound hysterical, agitated, nothing. Well, I think, first of all, neither of them sounds that way, which is incredibly peculiar. She can't talk because her throat's full of blood. But there's also a child in the back. So there might be some argument to be made that the two of them are acting as calmly as they can because there's a child in the backseat. But look, I mean, you're asking me how I defend him. And so the argument is very simple, is that both of them from the start say that she is the one who slashed herself. And also there was some evidence that she had had and suffered some depression and mental illness. So that might help in terms of the defense's argument. I'm not saying it's a winning argument, but it's certainly the argument we're going to use. Well, you know what?

Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, I'm depressed now just hearing that. That's why Julie Rendleman wins so many cases. I mean, she lays it out like that. Somebody might actually believe it. But I'm getting depressed just hearing it. And you know what the irony is? This is National Domestic Abuse Awareness Month.

And you know what? I think I might start crying. I have been working at the Better Women's Center. I worked there for nine years at night when I was a prosecutor. And we came up with this program and that program and this helper and that helper. And I feel like we're right where we started, Bethany. Well, I think you're right to cast this case in the light of domestic violence, because that's really what this is. I'm sure this couple had a long history of domestic violence.

And when you think of domestic homicide, and it's so I've said this so many times before in your program, and it's important for women to know women are at the greatest risk for domestic homicide as they are about to leave a relationship. That is the witching hour. And or when they gain their independence, let's say you are a woman, you are being abused, you're under your husband's control. He's taken away your money, your resources, your autonomy, but you decide to go to college or you strike out and you get your first friend or you get your driver's license and you're about to drive. What happens? You are getting and becoming independent.

And the more independent you become, the more anxious, frightened and vengeful your husband becomes. He will try to have control over you. And how will he try to have control? Maybe in some small way by brainwashing, maybe in a larger way by trying to kill you. So if you're about to leave a relationship and you have a disturbed husband, that's when you need to protect yourself.

That's when you need social support. When you sleep at night, make sure that you have all your papers around you. Every courthouse has a help center. You can go to the help center and you can have somebody help you file paperwork so that you can file a TRO or so that you can leave your relationship. You can also protect your children. That's the number one reason women do not leave domestic abuse situations is that they are frightened for the children and they believe

that the husband can take the children away from them. Your husband cannot take your children away from you. Your children are yours, and you can prove your case in court, and there are resources there to help you. If you or someone you know or love is suffering from domestic violence, dial 1-800-799-SAFE, 1-800-799-7233. Just talk to them. Tell them your situation. Wait till there's a safe time to speak freely. Well, as you heard Julie Rendleman explain what a potential defense was going to be, well, she was right. Listen. To be honest, because I love her, I mean, I'm not the type of guy to hurt someone. You seem like an honest guy.

I don't think you've been in a whole lot of trouble. Okay? But you're looking at some trouble tonight. I have her statement to the officer saying you cut her throat. She's a liar. I've got her on 911. And it sounds very coached to me about I cut my own throat. She doesn't talk very well on the phone.

And if you don't mind, I can stop talking about this. There he calls her a liar. Well, it didn't work. But that's not the end of it. Listen. If I wouldn't have hurt her, I wouldn't have tried to save her life. But the detective didn't buy his story. He's placed under arrest, and eventually he pleads guilty to aggravated

assault. These days, the scar from the attack is still visible. Mead tries to avoid looking into a mirror, but she still believes she made the right decision to leave him, even if it came at a price. I know it's scary, but don't stay for the kids. And the biggest thing is once you leave, you're not safe. That's the most dangerous time. And I didn't know that. While in prison, Ertman again tried to have Meade killed by hiring a hitman. Alexis Teresha, doesn't everybody behind bars know by now their calls are recorded? Well, as my mom always says, criminals are stupid. So this guy did not know, did not remember that maybe.

He was recorded. The officer that had investigated this case, just something about it stuck with them. They just knew that something was strange. They spent five, they spent listening to five months of his calls because they knew that he would say something. They finally realized he was looking for a man named Richard and they decided to find out who this Richard was because they understood what he was saying was that he wanted to get rid of Tiffany. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We realized that we had to tell Tiffany what was going on.

We have an obligation to keep her safe. It was a hard conversation because we have to tell this victim who's already scared to death that he's trying to hire somebody to kill her. My heart just dropped. I mean, I don't think there's even words to describe how it feels to hear that someone that's already tried to kill you is trying to hire someone else to kill you. It was just, I was devastated. She was trying to get through that healing process and it was so very painful to watch her emotions and understand that he's not going to quit. He's just not going to quit. We contacted a local police department and had her house put on extra patrol.

I constantly lived in fear. I remember telling her, if you're scared and it's two o'clock in the morning, I'll come up to your house myself. You don't have to hold this burden alone. Jen said her big thing was just keeping me and my little boys safe. And that meant the world to me. You are hearing Sergeant Bob Thompson on the case, Captain Jen Daly, Tiffany herself, from our friends at Oxygen's Murder for Hire. You know, I don't get it. John Cardillo, you're already behind bars

for slashing your wife's throat in front of your baby boy in the back seat, number one. And when I heard the mom saying how she didn't want to scream because that would be the last thing her son heard of her, it made me think of Emily Mason, who was running through her home, screaming and running from her killer. That's the last thing her two little girls heard, is mommy running through the home. So now we have him allegedly behind bars ordering a hit on her. Yeah, I mean, this was great police work, Nancy.

So what I would assume, now we were talking about an attempted murder and a pretty brutal attempted murder investigation. So I would assume those detectives went out and they spoke to family members. They spoke to neighbors, friends, coworkers, other parents at the daycare or kids' schools. And they put together a fact pattern by which this guy had a history of threatening her, had a history of her being terrified for her life. You can hear it in the 911 call when she says she tried to commit suicide. That's because she was afraid. She knew that he was capable of murder.

And so these detectives did a great job. They said, look, we put this fact pattern together. This guy wants her dead for all the reasons the doctor mentioned earlier, the control, watching her bleed, watching her writhe in fear. And they monitored him. And I'm a big proponent. I said on my show, I said when I do these analyses that I'm a big proponent. I said on my show, I say it when I do these analyses, that I'm a big proponent of not just profiling, but of monitoring. When you know somebody's a bad guy, whether they be incarcerated or not, monitor them because chances are they're going to try to do it again. To Julie Rendelman, I don't get it. He's behind bars for slashing his wife's

throat. And according to police, he is trying to order a hit from behind bars to get his wife murdered. How would you defend that? So look, it gets harder and harder. The one thing, you know, we were talking earlier about the idea that people don't realize that they're being taped when they're behind bars.

He did. He actually was very, very careful, at least initially, about how he went about it. In fact, when one of the people came to visit the potential suitor to kill his wife, he didn't speak. Instead, he put up a piece of paper with her address. So he was very, very cautious in the way he did things. And he used certain language that never made out the words, I want my wife killed, instead kind of alluding to it without saying it. So any defense attorney is going to grab onto that and say, he never actually said he wanted her dead. He just,

you know, the language is just being assumed on the part of the prosecutor that this is what he wanted. I can see that being played out in court. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, joining us out of LA, he tries to murder her twice. What does that tell you about his mindset? Well, that tells me he has the mindset of the stalker, but a stalker with homicidal overtones. And remember, stalkers stalk because they feel that they have a special

and unique relationship with the victim, even when there's evidence to the contrary. In other words, he still believes they're in a love relationship. He still believes there's something special between the two of them and that she is obligated to him. So what happens is that the stalker gets stuck in feelings of rejection, like, hey, we're an item. Why aren't you calling me back? Why aren't you here for me? And so they go after the victim in order to punish the victim for having rejected them. So to say it again, they feel that he felt there was a special relationship. She's rejecting him. He's going to punish her for that. And this is probably all he's thinking about

is he's sitting around in jail with nothing else to do is how he's going to get back at her. And there's an overlay of the fact that now he's behind bars and she's roaming the world free. So he's going to feel preoccupied by the fact that she has something he doesn't and he wants to obliterate her because of it. Take a listen to our friend Aaron Moriarty at CBS 48 Hours. How are you? Just chilling. I took a couple of pictures and just want to verify with you. Yeah.

Do you see that yeah is that right yeah is that her yeah okay so what was telling me was you know make it happen yeah yeah just you know have fun and you're saying i mean all the way right not, have fun. And you're saying, I mean, all the way, right? Yeah, have fun. Okay. So when do you want me to have this done by? Just whenever you can. Is there a time period?

I mean, is there a... No, no. No? Sooner the better. Sooner the better? Yeah. Okay. Well, let me throw a number out to you just so I make sure we're on the same page. Yeah.

Because I'm thinking about 5K. Yeah. Does that work? Yeah. But just so we're clear, I'm talking about, you know, there's no way to come back from it once I do it. I know. You're good with that? Yeah, you know.

Okay. Well, I'm planning on taking care of it this weekend. Okay. All right, and once I get some of the money or whatever, then I'll get it worked out, and, you know, we'll go from there. Okay. I'm looking at the inside of Tiffany's car. Tiffany made a young mom, and her car seat is covered in blood. I don't know how she lived based on the amount of blood. The facts,

the helpline, and the photos are at CrimeOnline.com, where we are highlighting Domestic Abuse Awareness Month. Did you hear him say to the hitman, Alexis Tereschuk, quote, have fun? He did. He said it multiple times. Just have fun. Have a good time while you're killing the mother of my children that I already tried to kill. And I'm sitting in jail for it. I would really like to know if this is what a real conversation is like when it actually works, because this to me sounds so crazy. Like I can't even believe that he, these are the words that were coming out of his mouth. He was so vindictive from day one. You know, she was just a teenager when they met. She was in high school.

He was living out of the country, serving in the armed forces. And he abused her from day one is what she said. You know, she was so young and had these two babies almost immediately after they got married and just spent years trying to destroy this woman's life. And so to end it with have fun just makes you so, it creeps me out. It thinks that he wants him to do something really, really brutal to her and have fun while you're torturing my wife's death. Before this happened, Tiffany had finally had enough of life with him and she ran away with her boys. They moved in with her

parents. She moved on with her life, working full time and going to college at night. She even started dating. And that's literally the kiss of death, Dr. Bethany Marshall. It is absolutely the kiss of death because this guy has pathological jealousy. And remember, men who, this is important for women to know because it's Domestic Violence Awareness Month, men who are what we call malignant narcissists, they are extremely fragile. They cannot stand the fact that their wife or girlfriend is out free in the world, enjoying themselves, having friends.

So when we talk about a malignant narcissist, what we're talking about is a man who wants to destroy. They're extremely fragile. Everything hurts their feelings at some deep level and they want to destroy. They're very destructive men. So whether that's to destroy the bond between a parent and her child, whether it's the wish to destroy the child's mental health, to disfigure the woman so that she no longer is beautiful to the rest of the world, that is the MO, the disfigurement, the destruction. And you can see that even as he's behind bars, he wants to destroy her life. It's not just kill her, it's destroy her life, destroy her family, destroy good feelings. Well, as Julie Rendleman, a renowned criminal defense

attorney out of New York, pointed out, the issue is going to be of intent, was he really trying to kill her? The defense easily could argue that Ertman let Tiffany call 911. If he wanted her dead, why do that? And gave her his shirt to help stop the bleeding. So, long story short, even behind bars, he is still trying to have her killed by ordering a hitman. At the end, when he's convicted, he comes up for parole in just 2029. To you, John Cardillo, former NYPD and host of America Talks Live on Newsmax TV. What's the chance of him getting parole? Well, it should be slim to none. I mean, in a case like this with the overwhelming evidence, it should be slim to none.

But I just want to make a comment, an anecdote about the doctor had said, you know, you and the doctor commented on him saying, have fun. And she said, well, is that a normal conversation? I've heard worse. I mean, we've had drug cases where they referred. I remember one. We worked on a federal task force where they were referring to kilos of cocaine as various kinds of fruit, pineapples and oranges. And they said, well, and if any of those crossing guards are in the crosswalk, just blow by him. Meaning if there are any cops, just blow them away. And once we got one of them on, so yes, they do. These, these bad guys who are homicidal and psychopathic and sociopathic, they really do talk that way and are often caught that way on the wiretaps. But to the parole question, I would hope that we have an intelligent parole board

that says absolutely not. Where I live in Florida, we've seen them be pretty tough on crimes like this. A friend of mine's dad was killed when my friend was 18. The guy comes up for parole about every five years, and finally the family appealed to the state, and they've extended that now to every 15 years. So his elderly mom doesn't have to go through it. Luckily, they've denied parole. I think in a case like this, they certainly will, especially if the child recalls it and is at an age for the subsequent parole hearings where they can then testify themselves if the board allows it. That's going to be pretty powerful testimony. He's right about that being very powerful testimony to Alexis Terescha at RadarOnline.com. He is coming up for parole. Do you think he'll get it? Why or why not? I do not think he will get it because of the law enforcement, the detectives in this case.

They have worked so hard to prove that not only was he a criminal when he tried to murder her, but behind bars, he continues his criminal actions. There's no repent. There's no apology here. He is continuing to live the life of a criminal and i think that police officers i think that the parole board would take their word hold it in such high standard with such high regard that they would not release him to you dr bethany marshall what can women do to protect themselves okay first of all you have to know the signs of an abusive relationship. Acknowledge that you're in one. Jealousy towards pets. Financial abuse. Somebody always keeping tabs on your whereabouts.

Isolating you from your friends and loved ones. Blaming you for anything and everything that goes wrong and holding you responsible for their violent behavior. You have to know that you want to opt out of that relationship. There's no way to fix it. Get help and support. There are domestic abuse support groups in every single community. You have to take precautionary measures and that is, you know, once you leave, change your online usernames and passwords. Only use a safe computer, go to the library. If you're planning to leave, use another computer so that you're not stalked or tracked by your partner. Document the abuse, Nancy. You always have to document it.

Be ready for emergencies. If you have to leave your house, have all your important documents. Always know where to run, where to go, get a restraining order, get psychological help, build up your support system so that you don't feel that you can't leave because you have nowhere to go. Tiffany Meade, a young mom and her son, lived. Today she encourages women not to stay in the relationship for the children, but to leave, to save their own lives so their children will have a mother. We wait for the parole hearing. As justice unfolds, Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Last word, 1-800-799-SAFE, 1-800-799-7233, the toll-free domestic violence hotline.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.