Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Your Child Safe Out and About | JUSTICE NATION: CRIME STOPS HERE

Episode Date: February 15, 2025

How do you keep your children safe when you’re out and about? Nancy and her team of world class experts deliver practical tips and dive deep on how to talk to your children about personal safety when you’re not at home. Presented with limited commercial interruption thanks to Lifelock. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LifeLock and use promo code NANCY or go to https://www.LifeLock.com/NANCY for 40% off. Terms apply. In Lesson #2, Your Child Out and About, Nancy talks to the mother of Cherish Perrywinkle, a young girl murdered by a predator who stole her from a big box store. What can be learned from her tragic murder? Then, Nancy is joined by her panel of world class experts to discuss keeping children safe when you’re out and about. What should you look for in a playground or amusement center? How do you avoid the dangers of public bathrooms? And most importantly – how do you talk to your kids about staying safe when you’re not at home?See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. Welcome to Justice Nation Crime Stops Here. This online education video course is designed to help you protect what you love the most, your children and your loved ones from crime. We're making it available for free for the first time with limited commercial interruptions thanks to our friends at LifeLock. During tax season, your sensitive info does a lot of traveling to places you cannot control, stopping off at payroll, your accountant or tax preparer, and countless other data centers on its way to the IRS. Any of them can expose you to identity theft because they have all the information on your W-2. Just the ticket for criminals to steal your identity. No wonder the IRS reported tax fraud due to identity theft went up 20% last year.

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Terms apply. Thank you, Lifelock, for making this possible and for being our partner. Your child out and about. I wish I could wrap my children in that beautiful colored tissue paper and keep them safe from everything and everybody. And I wish everyone around us was as well-intentioned, but that simply is not the case.

I cannot hermetically seal my children and the people that I love to keep them safe. While I believe on the whole most people are good, I know from everything I've seen, everything I've learned, everything I have done, that there are more bad guys out there than even I know of. And sometimes the bad guy is someone we already know, someone we have let into our lives, into our children's lives unwittingly, someone to whom we have already exposed our children. We are the grown-ups, and even grown-ups have a hard time taking care of themselves. But what about children?

It's our duty to take care of children. I still think back to this day to child victims that I represented in court, literally thousands of them, children that were too weak or too naive to protect themselves, to speak on their own behalf. And it was my honor and my privilege to speak for them. But what I really wish is what I can't have. I wish they had never been victims to start with, but I cannot turn back the clock and I cannot erase from their hearts and their minds what they've already lived through. But what I can do, what we can do is our very best. But how can you make the world a safer place? We may not be able to do that, but what we can do is make the world a safer place for our children by protecting them when they are out and about. How do you protect your children when you are out and about? We're going to find out. With me, Rain Periwinkle. Her beautiful

daughter, Cherish, was abducted from a major store. Also with me, my longtime friend and colleague, Mark Klass. He has dedicated his life to protecting children. Also with me, joining us for the first time, the founder of Revved Up Kids, Allie Neal, and Marlena Schiavo, investigative reporter. First to you, Rainn Peri-Linkle. You were out shopping with your girls. Yes. Gorgeous girls.

They look a lot like their mommy. And you guys started at, I believe, was it Dollar General or Family Dollar? Family Dollar. Family Dollar. You were going out of town the next day, I believe it was. To the airport. That's right. In the morning.

And you were taking them to get them some new clothes and you started at family dollar yes i do when you got there you didn't notice anything unusual but suddenly you noticed someone looking at you the wrong way and that sounds trite right he got in my face what happened like this he didn't go to my face. And? We did not exchange words. I just quickly walked away from him. Okay. I forgot about him.

Because we're in a store with other people. I forgot about him. And I just continued to shop. Where did you go when you were a family dollar? Straight across the street to Dollar General. Okay. Then what happened? While we were in the shoe section, I was trying shoes on my children. I just looked up briefly and there was an old man in the doorway to my right, way down the front of the store. And he was leering at us. I thought he was looking at me. He wasn't. Cherish was to my left. He was looking right at Cherish. At the time, did you know he was looking at Cherish? No. I thought he was looking right at

me because I'm the adult. I said, come on, girls, let's go. And we went to the clothes section. This is looking at little clothes and coloring books and hair ties and just things like that. I wish I had left right away, but the circumstances were different. So you go to a different section of the store. Now what happens? He kept looking at us. He was watching me when I went to the counter. I went there twice with a little dress that I wanted for my 4-year-old, and I was wondering, should I get it, should I not?

It was only one was $7 and one was $10. They were the same dress but different prices. So that's why I took it to the cashier twice. And then I noticed as I was paying for my merchandise, he was on my right shoulder looking right down into my hand as I was passing the money to the cashier. And that really bothered me. What did you think?

I thought he was going to rob me when I went outside. That was my first thought. You know, that really goes back to instincts. When you have that initial instinct, that gut feeling, so that three times you've had a bad feeling about him. I did a first store where he turned around, I was too close. Run. You left. You go across the street.

You continue shopping. You see him at the door staring in. You move. You go to another section. At checkout, he's seemingly looking at your money and you get the feeling he's going to rob you. Then what happened? I didn't know it was him because it was so quick see when i was at family dollar it was just it was like a flash

it was so fast i did see the black hair from his t-shirt and up but it was just so fast i forgot about him and then i saw him again across the street but it took a while to piece everything together i didn't know it was the same guy I didn't know it was the same guy. You didn't know it was the same guy, and you're at the checkout. What happens then? I paid for my merchandise, and I left. He was gone, and I said to Cherish, come here. I said, don't count your money in the store. I said, I think that guy's going to rob me when I get outside. And I knelt

down behind the stroller and I put my money in my wallet in this diaper bag that I had my children's clothes in. What happens next? There was a woman outside that had taken my children to school a couple of times in her vehicle. And I saw her. She was staggering to the trash can. She had been drinking. And I asked her, could you give me a ride to Walmart? And when I noticed her walk, I said, you can't go anywhere. I said, you can't drive.

You're drunk. And he must have heard me. I did not see him. He was not in my vision but then i started to walk away and that's when he approached me and he yelled out and offers a ride yes did you take the ride not right away i didn't what happened it was a process nancy he He said, first of all, I didn't know he was grooming me like he was throwing out a lure. And he said, you look like you have your hands full. And that made me mad because just because I have three little children doesn't mean I'm struggling with my hands full.

I liked going out with my three children. I felt good about myself. And then he said, if you really want that dress, I'll get it for you. That dress for my four-year-old, I'll get it for you. And I stopped in my tracks and I was just hesitant. And he said, you look like you're trying to save money. And that kind of unnerved me a little bit, that he had been paying maybe more attention to my actions than what I thought he was. So he had been watching you and learning things about you and your three little girls.

What convinced you to finally let him give you a ride to Walmart? He said, I have a $150 gift card. I'm waiting on my wife. And after he said that. About having the wife. Yes. After he said that, I thought she was coming. Mm-hmm.

Did you in your mind think, oh, this is just a guy waiting on his wife. He's normal. He's fine. He's got a family. I'll take the ride. Yes. Oh, he did mention that he's got a couple of little ones too. That was in his spiel. When he first started yelling out to me, he said, you look like you have your hands full. I have a couple of little ones. And then I kind of squinted at him. I thought, how old are you? Then I started to pay a little bit more attention. And then he said, if you really want that dress, I'll get it for you. He had to say that twice because I wasn't taking his bait right away. I was just standing there and he was maybe 30 feet away from me. So he was calling out to me. So the part about,

I'm waiting on my wife, that made you think he was okay. And you and the three girls get in the car and go to Walmart. We did. But it took a long time, Nancy, to get in that van. It wasn't like I just thought, oh, his wife's coming. I'll jump in that van. No. I told him I don't ride with strangers. And I was waiting for her. It seemed like maybe 20, 25 minutes. I even asked him what color car does she drive? And he said gold, a gold car. And I just kept waiting. And it was still daylight outside. A lot of people think I was out at 11 o'clock. I wasn't. I left about 6 p.m. that evening. It was daylight outside. It was starting to drizzle. So my children had their little umbrellas,

and they liked prancing around with their umbrellas. So you take the ride. You get to Walmart. What happens when you get there? The wife never showed up. We know that much. No. When you get to walmart what happens my children were in the back seat and they were fussy he had already asked me during

our ride over there he already asked me their names and how old they are i didn't know then that he was still grooming me step by step by step and foolish foolishly, I was naive. I told him their names and how old they are. I told him, my children want to get out. And he said, well, you go in first. First of all, he was doing this in steps. He took his phone out of his pocket and he just started talking. And I didn't hear the phone ring i didn't hear any vibration but i thought maybe it was on vibration

who am i to judge i don't know he pretended he was talking to his wife that we were there and he was ordering chinese food on the phone and uh he said will you get out first and meet me in the little girls section that's what he said to get out first and meet me in the little girl's section. That's what he said to me. And we're sitting there in the parking lot. And I said to him, when's your wife coming? And he said, soon. He was always telling me soon. She never showed up. He is pretending to talk to his wife on the cell phone to reinforce that he's a normal guy. He meets you in the kids section. I know why he sent me in guy. He meets you in the kids' section. I know why he sent me in first.

He was parking the van. He moved the van out of the way more, into the darkness, so it wouldn't be caught on surveillance video or people wouldn't see what he was doing. That's what the police officers told me, that he had moved the van. So I pieced it together. That's what he was doing. That's what the police officers told me, that he had moved the van. So I pieced it together. That's what he was doing for so long. When he said, you go in first, he was...

Even at that time, he was planning to take one of the girls, and he had already zeroed in on she. Yeah, she did. It's tax season, and by now, I know we're all a little tired of numbers. But here's an important number you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Here's another number, 20%. That's the overall increase in identity theft-related tax fraud in 2024 alone. But it's not all bad news. Here's a good number, 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every single second. If your identity

stolen, LifeLock's U.S.-based restoration specialists will fix it. Backed by another good number, the Million Dollar Protection Package. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft in financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with LifeLock Identity Theft Protection for tax season and beyond. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code NANCY or go to lifelock.com slash NANCY for 40% off. Terms apply. Thank you, LifeLock, for being our partner. He meets you in the Walmart. He finds you in the little girls section. What happened then?

The first thing out of my mouth was, where's your wife? He said, she's coming. And then we went back to look at the shoes again. And was i was getting concerned nancy because i was waiting for her for so long but i thought well she's driving how far can she drive so i watched him a couple of times and he kept staring at the work boots on the shelf as if he was going to buy a pair and he had his hands on his hips and he he was just parading around in front of the men's boots. And I was a few feet away from him looking at the little girl's shoes. Okay. So you guys are there for two hours, and he's hanging around this whole time.

What is he talking about? He wasn't saying much to me at all. He was just walking around leering and i was getting concerned for a few different reasons one his wife still wasn't there two my children were starting to get hungry it was getting dark i knew it was dark outside it was getting late i wanted to take my children home, wash Cherish's hair from the next morning. And I knew we had to leave early. It was a six o'clock flight.

So what happened? How did he manage to lure Cherish out of the Walmart? He said, I'm going to McDonald's. What do you want to eat? Just like that, from across the store store and he was a few feet away and that's when cherish ran up to me and stood on my left side and she looked down we're both looking at the floor and she said he's got 150 gift card i said is that what he told you she said yes and she said uh we're going to mcdonald's what do you want to eat and i said

cheeseburgers he never asked if he could take cherish and i would have said no if he did but i knew mcdonald's is inside the store so this is like a a walmart superstore yes and mark class those superstores have like a hair salon. They have an automotive area. They have somewhere you can eat. They have a McDonald's. They have all these different things under the same roof. So when we hear he took her child to McDonald's, it's not like they got in a car and drove away. They were just walking, you know know several dozen feet away to go to

McDonald's. Who would have thought something would have been wrong with McDonald's? Trust your gut. If it feels wrong it probably is wrong. Obviously she had let her guard down at this point. She had let her guard down at this point and wanted to get food in her children's tummies. How did

you know he took cherish? Because you said if they had asked, you would have said no. I watched her walk away behind him. And I, I didn't want her to go with him. But at the same time, I knew we're inside a store with people. It's not like I was outside and I said, we'll go get in these van by yourself. No, this is what some people think happened, but it's not. The truth is on the video what really happened. But they actually walked right by the McDonald's and kept going. I saw a different tape. Cherish was standing in front of McDonald's and she was looking down and then suddenly she looked up because she heard her name and then she started running. Yep. That's why I was screaming watching that. I said, she's not coming home.

So when they go to McDonald's within the store, when do you realize Cherish is gone? I heard the overhead, what is it? Yes, thank you. Talking about how Walmart is closing in 30 minutes. And so that's when I thought about going to the front of the store. But I made a detour to the shoe section because my five-year-old Destiny was whining about a pair of shoes that were too tight. And I just said, Destiny, I will go see if there's a pair of shoes that will fit you. So I tried to make it quick because I knew Cherish was at McDonald's waiting for me. So after I found out that there's no shoes to fit her, we walked to the front of the store and I finally found a cashier and I started to put some items of clothing up on the conveyor belt. And I said, wait a minute, someone's supposed to pay for this.

I said, could you watch them? And I'm looking around like this. And I ran over to McDonald's and I said, did you see a little girl with dark hair? And the young guy said, no. I said, call 911. My daughter's been taken. And he just stood there staring at me. And that's when I started doing this and no one would help me. And I was yelling out,

call 911. My daughter's been taken. And I felt like I was in a dream. No one's listening to me. I couldn't barely make a sound. I'm just staring like, what's she doing? I didn't want to scream too loud. I already felt weird because I thought, well, maybe Cherish would just walk back into the store. That's what you want to believe. She's just maybe outside with him at the door. You don't want to put yourself there. Well, I didn't want to put myself there. I didn't want to overreact and then look like a fool.

Oh, she's just outside. What are you doing screaming? When did you realize Cherish gone totally gone when i saw those two tapes uh two video surveillance tapes i started screaming saying she's not coming home when did you see the videotapes that night. I went to the security room and they showed me the tapes. They rolled back the tapes. Mark Klass with us, as well as Allie Neal and investigative reporter Marlena Schiavo. Mark, there are so many things happening in this story. Cherish was abducted. Cherish was murdered.

She was tortured, raped, molested in a white van, another white van. But there's so many problems and warnings within this story. Obviously. I mean, you don't let your children out of your sight. You don't let them walk off with somebody that you absolutely don't know whose story already isn't making sense. But when you notify the store employees that there's a problem and you believe your daughter might have been taken, particularly at Walmarts, they subscribe to Code Adam. They have an entire protocol about what to do in a situation like that. And it looks like that young man had not been trained nor had anybody else that she approached at this point. What should they do?

What is Code Adam? Well, what Code Adam is, is it sets into motion some protocols. Number one, they notify all employees that there's a child that's missing. Number two, they watch all entrances and exits. If they determine the child's not there, they immediately notify 911. And then they go through the process of looking through the CCTV tapes to see if the little girl was let out of the store. They look into the parking lot tapes to see if, in fact, to see if, in fact, the little girl is seen getting into a van and moving, which is why

when you're in a situation like that, you should always park under lights as near to the entrance as you possibly can so that you've got that kind of a barrier, that kind of surveillance to keep you safe. And Cherish's case is they didn't automatically do an Amber Alert. No, they didn't. People actually saw the car at a time and identified the car at a time when Cherish, we believe, was still alive in the van. But it wasn't connected to an Amber Alert. So nobody knew that there could be a little girl in there that's been kidnapped. But Amber Alerts can't be activated by the local authorities. I don't know if you know that. They have to go down a chain of command themselves. So you need to get various levels

of authorization before you can green light an Amber Alert. And I believe it takes two to three hours to get to that point. Speaking of being out and about, there is the case of Matthew Checkey. Matthew, beautiful little boy, was actually with his whole family. It wasn't a single mom with three children who were restless and hungry trying to find a ride. This is a whole family together at a picnic at the beach in California. Matthew needed to go to the bathroom. They thought, well, we're not going to let him go to a public bathroom by himself. So the aunt goes with him and waits outside the bathroom. Marlena, what happened? So she's waiting outside the bathroom. He doesn't come out. While she's waiting, she sees a boy that looks about somewhere. She said like a teenager walking in the bathroom.

When that teenager walked right back out and Matthew didn't, she got concerned. So she opened the door and there was Matthew in the bathroom with his throat slit. There's no easy way to say that. There's no easy way to tell the story of Matthew Checkey. But those parents were doing everything right, or so they thought, even walking him to the bathroom. And waiting. And waiting.

A public bathroom on the beach. Mm-hmm. We hear stories regarding bathroom incidents, whether somebody, they try to abduct the child, they try to molest the child, They kill the child in a public bathroom. So much to learn from that. But in this particular case of Matthew Checkey, the aunt went with him, Allie. It's a horrible case. And I don't know, other than going in there with him, I don't know what would have stopped this deranged person from committing this crime. Looking for a family bathroom. Absolutely.

But back then. Where a family goes in. Yeah. Looking for a unisex bathroom where they could both go. You look like you're counting it off with your fingers. Well, the next step would be making sure the child goes into a stall as opposed to a public, an open urinal. Or bringing the boy with you into the ladies' bathroom. Sure. The

fear associated with public bathrooms, Marlena, Shivo, in my mind should really be extended to public areas when you're out and about. One case that brings that to mind is Tika Lewis. Right. What happened? She was at a bowling alley with her entire family. They were all together. She was merely 10 feet away, just kind of playing on an arcade game, two years old, and her mother was up to bowl. She asked her brother and sister-in-law,

you know, keep an eye on her, turned her back. When she turned back around, Tika was gone. That fast. That fast. She bowled. She got the ball back. She bowled again. She turned around and Tika was gone. I don't even know if she bowled again. She said it was about 20 seconds within the first ball. She turned around. Tika is gone in a crowded, it was very crowded that night, bowling alley, which is, and there was not one eyewitness in a crowded

bowling alley that saw her leave or saw anyone take her it's like that was a great northern bowling alley was very crowded that night and the only lead they had to go on was a vehicle someone saw scratch off and it never went anywhere it never went anywhere because there were no surveillance cameras on the parking lot there were no surveillance cameras even inside the bowling alley. And that tip came in later and it just never went anywhere. They looked at fire doors, you know, the doors that are supposed to emit an alarm when you open them, but which did not emit an alarm. They tried to figure out who had gone out the front door. Nobody saw anything, but we know Tika was there with the family because other people outside the family saw her there

and saw her right before the mom turned around to bowl. Absolutely. And everybody's story has cleared that, you know, the mother took two polygraphs voluntarily. The father wasn't there. He was out of town. That alibi was substantiated. And and no one saw Tika leave. And the mother even said that door was too heavy. So it's not like the toddler sort of wandered off on her own. When I have been in, for instance, a Chuck E. Cheese or a Dave and B's, or an arcade where the children are running different ways. That's hard, Mark Klass. What can we do about it? Well, we can ensure, number one, that these locations only have one way in and out. If you have multiple entrances and exits, it's going to be much easier for somebody to get out with the child. If you're in an arcade kind of a situation, you also want to be in a

place where adults can't come in unaccompanied by children. I've noticed that with Legoland, the ones within malls, they don't let a single adult come in. You have to come in with children. And you also have to wear a little armband as well. So they categorize you. They know who you are. They're no doubt taking surveillance of you at this point in time. But you need to do those kinds of things. You want to make sure there's not multiple entrances and exits. You want to make sure that they don't let unaccompanied adults in. And if they do, you just have to keep a much sharper eye on your child when you're in there and understand that you can't take your eyes off of them for even one second.

A lot of parents even tether their children. Now, it used to be tethering with real leashes, unfortunately, but now you can tether with GPS and you can set up geofencing so that if your child goes beyond a certain point, there's going to be alarm that's raised that you can set up geofencing so that if your child goes beyond a certain point, there's going to be alarm that's raised that you can then monitor with your own cell phone. So things have come a long, long way, but one still has to be diligent and one has to know one's surroundings and be sure that if a situation does occur, you're going to be able to react correctly. Do you guys remember the case of Carly Brucha? Oh, yes. I can still see that video of her. Carly Brucha in Florida had been to a spend the night

party the night before. Remember Marlena? It was less than 10 minutes from home. And the next morning she was walking home and she was going down the street where I think she was going to take a right turn. And instead, she went catty-cornered across behind a car wash. The surveillance video shows little Carly walking. And then a guy walks up, speaks to her very briefly. He has a mechanic's outfit. Takes her arm, leads her off, and that's the last she's seen alive. That guy, Joseph Smith, an unemployed mechanic who had a criminal history,

is out and about. In fact, he was still out on probation at the time that this happened. Her body was recovered, half-dressed, behind a Central Church of God out in a densely wooded area, not that far away. And the mom is sitting at home waiting for Carly to walk in the front door.

And I think what we have today, thankfully, is Find My iPhone and the family sharing where you can actually watch your kid walking or moving about. So that helps parents where in Carly Bruce's time, she wasn't carrying a cell phone. Everyone with me I've introduced her before is Allie Neal, the founder of Revved Up Kids. My children went to her class as part of Lucy's Girl Scout program. And I was so overwhelmed and impressed by what she had to say. And I want you to hear what she has to say.

Allie, how can children fight back? So when kids get to be in middle school age like Carly was, they're beginning to separate more from their parents. They're beginning to do things more independently. And that's a really scary time for parents. And that's a time when we need to learn to equip our kids to take some ownership of their safety. One of the things that we teach kids is they need to maintain a safe space, meaning about four or five, six feet around their body, almost like a bubble. And they need to always know who's near their safe space all the time. And they

shouldn't let anybody inside their safe space unless they're comfortable with that person being there. So when kids are out, like Carly was walking, she should have her head on a swivel and she should know exactly who's around her every second. And if somebody starts approaching her who she doesn't know, she needs to be running. He never should have been able to get in close to her to the point that he could grab her by the arm. And who knows if he said, I have a gun, come with me quietly. I would assume there was some sort of a threat. But if kids can be taught to just focus on everybody around them, and we always say, especially focus on people who seem to be focusing on you when you're out.

That goes a long way towards helping them protect themselves from that type of a scenario. And then we also, of course, always say that in Rain's case, where he kept looking at her in a very unusual way and looking at the girls. So focus on someone that's over focusing on you. Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. And then always trust your instinct. Now, Carly didn't have a moment of time, right? He came up, he caught her by surprise, and he grabbed her by the arm and took her away.

So she didn't even have a moment of time to trust her instinct. Rain, I am very sorry for your loss, but I hear your story and I hear your instinct screaming at you again and again and again. Something's not right with this person, this man. And every single time you justified his behavior somehow to allow the situation to continue. So we have to believe that inner voice, that that is our best tool for safety always. Let's address children who are approached by someone, for instance, in a car and asking for directions. Right. Hey, do you know where Main Street is?

Yeah. No. No. Please, an adult should never ask a child for directions. Never. No. They should never approach them. There's no business doing that.

The child should remove themselves from that situation. Adults do not need the help of children. Right. And even bigger, older kids. We need our kids to understand that that person with bad intentions might not always be a grownup. It could be somebody who's five, six, seven years older than you. If you're a 13 year old girl, it could be an 18 year old boy who's approaching you on the street and he has no business doing that. Well,

for instance, in the Samantha Lunyon case where the little girl was two-year-old, three-year-old playing in the front yard, we are told that he asked her about his puppy, his lost puppy. Sure. Which is the oldest trick. And it still works, Nancy. That's the crazy part. It still works. So the child gets close to the car, and once the child is within 10, 15 feet of the car, it's over.

They get the child in the car, just like we were hearing earlier from Alicia, and it's done. Yeah. So what can we tell our children? So we need to tell our children, A, awareness, situational awareness, and who is around you and who is near you. I think also we have to be careful because our children are going to take cues from us. I suspect that Cherish very much trusted her abductor because he had been talking to mommy for hours. She didn't have any reason not to trust him in that moment. So we have to be careful about how we interact with individuals.

And are we teaching our children to let their guard down when they shouldn't be? When my children attended your class, Revved Up Kids, you gave very specific examples of what children should do and be aware of. What are they? And one of the things that we find is kids are taught by their parents to be very helpful, always help and also obedient, obey and do be respectful to adults. So predators use that by asking kids for help, asking kids for assistance, pretending to be hurt.

Can you give me directions? The lost dog lure. So we tell kids, one of the most important things you do for your safety is your parents need to know exactly where you are every minute of every day. Anytime you are invited into someone's home, their garage, their basement, their backyard, you check in with your parents first. If a stranger asks you for help, there's no reason a stranger should ever ask a child for help. They can go to another adult. But sometimes predators are people that our children know. They're people in that inner circle. What are they supposed to do then? So we always say, if someone you know is asking you for help, you need to get permission from your parents

first. So that's, you know, one of the big rules that we lay out for kids for safety. Always, always, your parents know exactly where you are. That's the best way to stay safe. And then there are rules that support that, i.e. I keep my safe space. I don't talk to strangers. I don't believe people who are, you know, asking me questions, approaching me, trying to talk to me. That goes to keeping safe space. That goes to not, if somebody approaches you and they're a stranger to you, you shouldn't be going anywhere near that car. What if you're walking and someone is slowly coming up near you? What can you do in that moment? Run in the opposite direction that the car is going. It's hard for a car to turn around. So if you just run the opposite way and a child needs to know in their neighborhood, in their close circle, where are the safe places

to go? So that's not just my next door neighbor. Where else in my neighborhood where I might be playing are the safe houses that I can go if I ever feel like I'm in trouble? So that's a conversation to have with your children. Talk about who your safe neighbors are. Help your kids to be able to identify those homes all throughout the neighborhood. Maybe there's four or five different houses in different parts of the neighborhood where you know the people well so that your child has a place to go. And then we also say, you know, if everything goes wrong and you're far away from home and you're not in your safe neighbors, go where there's people. Go to a group of people and activity.

Don't put yourself in a situation where you're further isolated. Maybe the child's playing at the park and they're off by themselves on the swing and somebody starts to approach them. Run toward groups of people. That's the safest place to go. And I guess, Marlena, part of what she is saying is be careful of people approaching you that shouldn't be getting close to you. Once they're close enough to you, it's over. It's for a child. For instance, on a playground, there are a string of cases where children have been abducted from softball fields, playgrounds. Absolutely. And there are so many criminals out there that are

so brazen that they will kidnap a child even if the parent is there. There was one case in Kirkland, Washington, where a grandmother, a mother, and two children are just walking through the park. The grandmother's in charge of the toddler. And this woman just comes up behind, boop, on the head to the grandmother and takes off with the toddler. Of course, they go running after her. It ends well. They catch a female abductor. A female abductor. You know, which we later learn she had mental illnesses living out of a car.

But that's not the point. The point is that they're everywhere. And it doesn't even matter sometimes if the parent is there. They caught up with her. They got the toddler back. She was arrested. There's another case that happened in New York. Um, a mom takes her two children, stay at home. Mom takes her two children out to the playground. That's right next to their home. Another mom asked for her assistance with

her child. She turns. And when she turns back again, only her daughter is standing there. The son is gone. The daughter said there's some maintenance worker that was standing on the playground. Apparently, this is the man that took her son. Thankfully, 24 hours later, he was recovered. But, yeah, so she was standing within feet of her own son. And this person just came up and said, Can I ever tell you what happened with me and the babies or us? A mother had come up to me at our community pool and was bragging that

she made her own sunscreen. And it was organic because, you know, now they think sunscreen causes cancer. So I go to Babies R Us. It's a giant superstore. And I'm down on the very bottom level on the floor looking. I stand up. I didn't find it. I turn around. John David's gone. Lucy's standing there. John David's gone.

It was just that quick. You don't have to doubt what these other people are saying. I couldn't have been down there over a minute and a half because I dug around a little bit and then got up, stood up, and turned around. He's gone. I picked Lucy up like a football and started running and screaming, lock the doors. Somebody took my baby. And they did lock the doors and everybody converged because of me screaming. And we found John David. He was wearing those little rubber Crocs. I never heard him walk off. And he had gotten three or four aisles down. But what if you've got a child that big alone in a giant store?

Babies are us. It's a predator's dream. Can I add a tip for parents for that? We always say to parents two things. A, when you go out with your child anywhere, snap a head-to-toe picture that morning on your cell phone of your child. Because chances are if someone would have said, what was he wearing? You're in a panic. You don't remember what he was wearing. Or if you describe a child who's, he's this tall with sandy blonde hair and blue eyes versus here's a picture of my kid from this morning. That'll help the volunteers who mobilize to look. Okay. So that's a really good practice. You're shaking your head.

Yes. Do you have an idea? No, I agree with that. Tell me. I think that's a great idea. And then my second thing is whenever you go anywhere with your child and you walk in the door, you need to make a separation plan. What will we do if we get separated? Where will we go? You need to have your child participate in that decision. Pick a place that your child can find from anywhere in that venue. Like if you're in Walmart, can you look up at the ceiling and can you see a sign? Or can your child find the front of the store? And pick a place and have your child be part of that decision so it sinks into your child's brain where they're supposed to go. That way, if they do get separated from you, they're not walking around the store crying and looking lost for their mommy. Allie, Neil, when someone approaches your child,

or when Carly Bruce, or when you see him physically grab her arm, when that happens, what should your child yell out? We use, well, yes, we use fire with older kids because I think older kids tend to be more likely to be abducted alone out in public. With little babies like your kids, just yelling out anything is going to draw attention to them. So when we teach kids, we're teaching them to scream no. I've always been told that if they yell, a passerby may think, oh, that kid's in trouble. It doesn't want to get reprimanded. But they're still dragging out kids.

That's what I tell the children to yell. Yeah. You're not my mommy. You're not my daddy. Let me go. It doesn't actually always work. In the case I was telling you about in New York, they're on a subway, and he's saying, I want my mommy, I want my mommy.

And this guy was acting like, oh, we're going to find her as soon as we get to the cops, as if he was helping him. Yeah. He was four years old, this child. For me, it's about... The other people on the crowded train thought, oh, this man's helping him. Okay, she's fine. A four-year-old little boy on the subway in New York.

With a kidnapper. And what happened? Oh, well, he took him all the way uptown, spent the night with him, and then dropped him off back into the subway to a subway clerk, and that's when the clerk called the cops. And he was recovered, Chris. You mentioned something about a crowded beach. Oh, that was a personal story of the same thing that happened to you

in Babies R Us with my daughter when she was two years old. And I put a bucket down, look back up and she was gone. I mean, it was like that. And I did a 360 in a total panic. And I was with a group of friends and she had already made it 40 feet ahead of me heading towards the water. So what do we need to do regarding playgrounds? I always look for a playground that has a fence around it if I can find it. I try to find, like in an arcade or any other amusement place, I try to find one that only has one entry exit. So I can look at it, or people that are working there know who's coming in and out.

What else should we look for regarding playgrounds and amusement places? Once you get in there, I think you should try to make a judgment call as to whether or not the other adults that are there are supervising children or not. And if you find someone that's obviously not supervising children, that's somebody you totally have to keep your eye on because they're not there for a good reason. No, no good reason. And don't be complacent. I think a lot of times parents, when they go to the same places over and over again, there's a sense of comfort and safety there, regardless of whether it's true or not. You see your children playing, everything's fine, week after week after week.

Then you're okay reading your book. You're okay talking to your girlfriend on the phone. And you're not honed in on watching your children. And same thing in the stores. If it's a store you shop at all the time, you just feel a sense of safety. When you say that, y'all, I got you. That really hit home. I go out with the children. I look around. Every single mom and adult is just like this glued to an iPhone. Yeah. You could just steal all the children and herd them up like cats and put them in a van and be gone and nobody would look up from their iPhone. Yeah, you're probably right. So just paying attention, just being vigilant all the time when you're out with your kids is really, really critical.

Let's summarize what we know. Here's how I would summarize that. A lot of these points have already been made. That parents should know where their children are all the time, so the kids should be telling the parents where they're going to be. That they should be using the buddy system. That they shouldn't be alone because being alone isolates them, that they should trust their feelings. If something feels wrong, it probably is wrong and they need to put distance between themselves and whatever that is, that they should feel comfortable walking up to people they don't know, so-called strangers, people they don't know, particularly police officers in uniform or anybody in a uniform or a mother or even the vast majority of men, although men tend to be the problem, and they will help that child get out of the situation

that they're in. And I really believe that you should give kids, even young kids, a cell phone. It gives you, it tethers you to them. It gives you the ability hopefully to track them if something goes wrong. And that you should also, as well as a little GPS tracker, as well as talking about safe places with your kids, show your kids areas to avoid like alleyways and dark stairwells, where if they're alone and somebody is lurking, they could find themselves in a world of hurt. Yeah. Yeah. And I had one more when I was talking about the out and about and picking the place. Also remind your child that you would never, ever leave without them. So if somebody says, I saw your mommy go out the door looking for you, that is not true. Make sure your child

knows that you would never leave without them. That is a lot of information. Let's break it down. How to keep your child safe out and about. Number one, so obvious. In a store or anywhere, don't let your child out of your sight. Don't let your child talk to strangers and don't rely on strangers to watch your child. Alert the store immediately if your child is missing so they can trigger a code item. Always have a separation plan in case you do get separated and have that conversation with your child. Let them participate in making the decision of where to meet up. Make sure your child knows you would never leave without them. So if a stranger tells them that, that's not true. Public bathrooms.

Whenever possible, find a unisex or a family bathroom. Never send your child or a family bathroom. Never send your child into a public bathroom alone. If you need help, ask an employee or security guard. Never accept help from a well-meaning stranger to watch your child in the bathroom. Teach your child to use a private stall, never an open urinal. Teach your child never to speak to a stranger in the bathroom. Avoid public bathrooms with more than one entrance.

Make eye contact with every person who enters the bathroom while your child is in there. Stand at the door and talk to your child loudly while they are in the bathroom. If for some reason you must let them go in by themselves. When you are at an amusement center, a bowling alley, an arcade, look for play places that only allow adults in if they are with a child. Why would a single adult be in a child bouncy house? No reason. Stay away from people who are not there supervising children. Go to places where you're required to have a wristband or a stamp to enter or re-enter. Look for play places with only one entrance and exit. Owners must be running comprehensive background checks

to eliminate known threats. In parks and playgrounds, again, look for places with only one entrance exit. Fenced playgrounds are the best. Look for playgrounds where alcohol is not allowed. If possible, choose playgrounds or parks that are not visible from the interstate. What about in your own neighborhood? Parents must know where their children are every minute of every day. It's not that hard. Always have your child check in with you.

Remind your child there is no reason an adult should ever ask for help. That goes for teens as well. Adults can go to other adults for help. Children must be indoctrinated to keep a safe space between them and strangers and to never approach a stranger's vehicle. If a car pulls up behind your child, train your child to run in the opposite direction. Your child must know safe places in your neighborhood, if there are any. Speak to your child about these issues. Who are safe neighbors?

What houses should they go to in case of an emergency? If they are away from home, go where there are people and activity and never ever teach this to your child. Let them isolate themselves away from other people. If your child is in danger, they must make a lot of noise. If they are afraid or in danger, you must tell them what to do if they feel unsafe. Remember the little girl at Walmart who kicked and screamed and managed to get away from a predator?

She was taught that. Children must trust their instincts. If someone's telling them to do something they don't feel is right, they've got to scream and put distance between themselves and that person. Go to an authority. Tell them what has happened. Use the buddy system. Consider giving your child a cell phone so they are tethered to you digitally.

I know it seems overwhelming, and it is. But you are the parent. This is your duty. It may seem overwhelming, but again, there is no second chance.