Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 'YOU'RE NOT SPECIAL': Kohberger's Take-Down from Victim's Sister, Orders Him to 'Sit Up'

Episode Date: July 24, 2025

Bryan Kohberger, an admitted quadruple murderer, stares straight-faced as grief-stricken parents, siblings, grandparents, and friends of the four slain University of Idaho students speak to the court through their victim impact statements. Kaylee Goncalves’s sister confronts Kohberger in a stunning statement that moves the courtroom to applaud. Alivea Goncalves says to Bryan Kohberger, “My sister Kaylee and her best friend Maddie were not yours to take. They were not yours to study, to stalk, or to silence. They’re everything you could never be: loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, brave, and powerful.” Kaylee’s father, Steve Goncalves, also directly addresses Kohberger, calling him a "joke" and saying, “The world's watching because of the kids, not because of you.” He also highlights how easily Kohberger was tracked down by police: despite all those A’s in school, he’s still so dumb. Kohberger declines to address the court after listening to hours of powerful statements from victims’ families. He takes a last-minute plea, sparing him the death penalty. The judge ultimately sentences him to four consecutive life sentences. Judge Steven Hippler calls Bryan Kohberger a “coward” who “slithered through the sliding glass door at 1122 King Road” and “now stands unmasked.” Joining Nancy Grace today: Greg Morse - Criminal Defense Attorney at Morse Legal, Author of “The Untested” [found on Amazon] Dr. Shavaun Scott- Psychotherapist, Author of “The Minds of Mass Killers: Understanding and Interrupting the Pathway to Violence” and "Game Addiction: The Experience and the Effects;"  FB: Shavaun.scott, Instagram: shavaunscott Dr. DeWayne Hendrix - Former Associate Warden at the MDC in Brooklyn, and Former Senior Warden with the US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons; Founder and President of A New Daylight Foundation, Author: "Who Are You?  See it Say it and Seize it;" @anewdaylight (IG)  @drdewaynehendrix (LinkedIn)  @anewdaylight (X-Twitter)   Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensicith Joseph Scott Morgan;" X:@JoScottForensic Sheryl McCollum -  Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, Host of Podcast: Zone 7; X: @ColdCaseTips Susan Hendricks - Outside Ada County Courthouse Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Coburger. Brian Coburger. Guilty and sentenced. Life plus life plus life plus life. That's four life sentences plus ten. Is it justice? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. In the last hours, convicted quadruple killer Brian Coburger in a court of law and now sentenced.

The families of the four victims filing out of that courtroom, many people call it closure. Let me inform you, there is no such thing as closure when the person you love the most is murdered. Let's take a listen to Judge Hippler on the bench. I'm unable to come up with anything redeeming about Mr. Koberger because his grotesque acts of evil have buried and hidden anything that might have been good or intrinsically human about him.

His actions have made him the worst of the worst. Even in pleading guilty, he is giving nothing hinting of remorse or redemption, nothing suggesting even a recognition or understanding, let alone regret for the pain that he has caused. And therefore, I will not attempt to speak about him further other than to simply sentence him so that he is forever removed from civilized society. Hippler tees it up, then he brings down the hammer. Listen. Recognizing the standards that govern this court's sentencing decisions as set forth in state B2 Hill,

I hereby sentence Mr. Kohlberger as follows. On count one, burglary, 10 years fixed, zero years indeterminate. I also impose a fine of $50,000. 10 years fixed, zero years indeterminate. I also impose a fine of $50,000. Count two, first degree murder of Madison Mogen. I sentence the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of $50,000, and a civil penalty of $5,000 payable

to the family of the victim. On count three, for first degree murder of Kayleigh Goncalves, I sentenced the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of $50,000 and a civil penalty of $5,000 payable to the victim of the family, or to the family of the victim, pardon me. payable to the victim of the family, or to the family of the victim, pardon me. On count four for the first degree murder of Zana Kernodle, I sentence the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of $50,000, and a civil penalty of $5,000 payable to the family

of the victim. On count five for the first degree murder of Ethan Chapin, I sentence the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of $50,000, and a civil penalty of $5,000 payable to the family of the victim. The sentences on counts one, two, three, four, and five shall run consecutively to one another. I remand the defendant to the custody of the Atto State Board of Corrections for to be imprisoned in an appropriate facility and execution of the sentence where he will remain until he dies. You've heard from many outlets that the defendant, Brian Coburg, will be sentenced to

life behind bars. That is not correct. This is life without the possibility of parole. And for good measure, Hippler, who I've got to give a lot of credit, an amazing judge on the bench throughout this ordeal, for added good measure, he ran the life without possibility of parole consecutively, which means that when you finish one sentence, that's when the next sentence starts. A lot of judges sentence concurrently

where one life sentence runs at the same time as the next one, which gives a lot of leeway for a defendant to get out from behind bars. I mean, we've seen it over and over again where the laws change or circumstances change and somehow a defendant sentenced to life actually walks free. Yes, it's happened quite often. Charles Manson, perfect example, Charles Manson gets sentenced to a very stiff sentence and

that would be the DP. And then in that jurisdiction, California is determined the DP death penalty is unconstitutional. So his sentence was changed, setting Charles Manson up for parole. Yes, in this case, Hippler, God bless him, sentences Coburger to life without parole, then life without parole, and two more times to run consecutively.

I've got an all-star panel, but I want to go straight to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, host of a star podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott,

even though he's been sentenced to LWOP, life without parole, at the end of that hearing today, just an hour ago, I felt empty. I felt empty. You out of this panel, have seen so many death scenes, as have I. Why the empty feeling, Joe Scott, it doesn't feel like justice. Because there's no way, Nancy, to replace these precious souls. There will always be an empty chair at every Thanksgiving table, at every Christmas table. That's what makes this so unsatisfying. You cannot replace those kids, period. End of paragraph.

That's what makes it so unsatisfying as far as I'm concerned. You know, Joe Scott, you, like me, have children. And I think about, like right now, I'm already planning the birthday. What am I going to do? What are we going to do for Christmas? And it spins out. And in my mind is this endless path of my family and me, my husband with them.

What do they have? All they had was today. The answers had been taken away from them because there was no trial. We're getting bits and pieces of information now that just make me sick, sick to think that his motive was his sick pervy fetishes that he wanted to rape women that were passed out. I mean we're learning so much more. We're learning that the defense was going to be blaming some of the victim's friends. That was the defense. We're finding out that his car was absolutely identified in the area, tagging everything multiple times that night. There's even an eyewitness that identifies him at the home

the night of the murders. This case would have been a death penalty in the end. I don't know if that even that would have satisfied a desire for justice here. We've got the future to look forward to. They've got nothing except today when they gave those victim impact statements. Joe Scott, that's all they've got. No, you're absolutely right. And look, I gotta tell you, thank you for making the comment about the word closure.

It's one of the biggest lies that's ever been sold to people that are going through grief. You do not on any level achieve closure. It's very dissatisfying. And I've dealt with so many families over the years, Nancy, that still call me, they would call me seven years after the fact, after they lost a loved one, many of them drunk. Can you imagine that in the

middle of the night, I'd still be on duty at the ME's office, just wanting to have somebody to talk to, because no one else understood and I can't say that I could even plumb the depths of it. But I was at the scene and I talked to them. And that's that one point of contact that they have, Nancy, over the years. And you never stop missing the person. You never have closure.

You know why? Because this guy, this convicted five-time felon now, is still breathing air, and their kids are not. He sentenced not just, he sentenced these families. Please hear me right on this. He sentenced these families to life imprisonment along with him. They had no choice in this matter.

They are all that remains. They have been sentenced as well. The victims in this case who were brutally murdered. From the beginning, we were told they were murdered in their sleep. That's not true. That is not true. Joining me, Susan Hendricks, you know her well. She's been with us all day long outside the courthouse. She's the author of Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi, and now she has latched onto this case like nobody's business. I want to welcome Susan Hendricks for being with us.

Susan, we found out now that Zanna had come down the stairs and she fought for her life. She fought for her life. That's nothing like what we were told to start with. Absolutely. And when new details come out, they're just more excruciating for the family. We have heard that maybe she saw something,

heard something, was getting, of course, the door dash, as you know. And then maybe he chased her. You mentioned, and I thought this was key, that this is all they had was today. I was in the courtroom, and I could see it, Nancy, building the tension. Kaylee's father, his knee was shaking. He was to the right of me. And his knee was shaking courtroom and I could see it Nancy building the tension Kaylee's father his knee was shaking

He was to the right of me and his knee was shaking and I could tell he was going through what he was gonna say So he's almost like practicing and it's all they had and they gave it everything They've been wanting to say this for so long Everything that they wanted to say and I will say there was a 10-minute break in between And I looked at Kelly's dad and I said you did a great at Kaylee's dad and I said, you did a great job in Kaylee's sister, and they said thank you, and they were smiling. I feel like it's so healing to get that out. Yeah, you know what?

I disagree, Susan. I disagree, and I'll tell you why. I hadn't had this memory over a decade, two decades, but as we were hearing about Dylan Mortenson stating that, she had to go and sleep in her mother's bed for so long after this. I remember sleeping with my mother and my father in their little bed after my fiance's murder. Those memories like Joe Scott was saying, they never go away and they come back at the most improbable moments. So all this about healing and closure. Yeah, no closure.

There's no such thing. And I really resent people that have never been through it talk about how all the victims' families are healed because they spoke for five minutes in a courtroom. But I can tell you one thing that happened in this hearing. And I know you saw it too, Susan Hendricks. Keely Goncalves', let him have it. She said a lot of what we all wanted to say to

Koberger. Listen. My name is Olivia and I'm the big sister of Kaylee Gonzalves and I was blessed to love Madison Mogan as a sister, too. I'm not here today to speak in grief. I'm here to speak in truth because the truth is my sister Kaylee and her best friend Maddie were not yours to take. They were not yours to study, to stalk, or to silence.

They were two pieces of a whole, the perfect yin and yang. They are everything that you could never be. Loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, accomplished brave and powerful because the truth about Kaylee and Maddie they would have been kind to you if you would approach them in their everyday lives they would have given you directions thank you for the compliment or awkwardly giggled to make your own words less uncomfortable for you. In a world that rejected you, they would have shown mercy. Because the truth is, I'm angry.

Every day I'm angry. I'm left shouting at the inside of my own head everything I wish I could say to you. The truth about me is when I heard the news, I didn't cry. I listened for them. I promised them I would, that I would fight for them, that I would show up no matter what it cost me. That's Olivia Gonzalva. She starts off talking about her sister, then she lays into Koberger. I won't stand here and give you what you want. I won't offer you tears. I won't offer you trembling, disappointments like you thrive on pain, on fear, and on

the illusion of power. And I won't feed your beast. Instead, I will call you what you are. Sociopath, psychopath, murderer. I will ask the questions that reverberate violently in my own head so loudly that I can't think straight most any day. Some of these might be familiar, so sit up straight when I talk to you. How was your life right before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were thinking and feeling at this time. Why did you choose my sisters? Before making your move, did you approach my sisters?

Detail what you were thinking and feeling. Before leaving their home, is there anything else you did? How does it feel to know the only thing you failed more miserably at than being a murderer is trying to be a rapper? Did you recently start shaving or manually pulling out your eyebrows? Why November 13th? Did you truly think your Amazon purchase was untraceable

because you used a gift card? How do you find it enjoyable to stargaze with such a severe case of visual snow? Where is the murder weapon, the clothes you wore that night? What did you bring into the house with you? What was the second weapon you used on Kaylee? What were Kaylee's last words? Joining me right now is a special guest, Cheryl McCollum.

She's a forensic expert. She is the founder and director of the Colquay's Research Institute, and she's the star of a hit podcast, Zone 7. Cheryl McCollum is joining us from the field. Now, Cheryl McCollum, I don't know if anybody else caught this. I bet you did. You're hearing Livia Goncalves as killing Goncalves' sister and she's reading right out of the questionnaire

that Koberger gave to all those violent felons as part of his PhD study. Did you hear? Did you prepare? How was your life right before you murdered my sisters? Before leaving your apartment, detail what you were thinking and feeling at the time. Why did you choose this victim? Before you made your move, did you approach the victim?

Detail what you were thinking and feeling before leaving your home. Is there anything else you did? She is knifing him with his own words, Cheryl McCollum. It was brilliant. It was so unbelievably delivered. You're talking about a young woman that is staring down the monster that killed her sister and she said, you will get no tears from me.

You are not gonna see me shaking my boots looking at you. And then when she delivered his own words back to him, it was like nothing I've ever seen. Nacy, you and I have seen thousands of these. Normally it's only about the victim. When she turned it on him, these are not just questions he had, but I think they're valid to what the family deserves to know. And Cheryl, everyone keeps

talking about, well, he showed no emotion. Cheryl, I never have, but I've seen people have pet lizards or sometimes maybe an iguana, but let me just go with lizard. It doesn't show emotion. It's cold blooded. It's a reptile. Throughout the entire sentencing, Coburger sat there and showed no emotion. What did everybody think was gonna happen? That he'd start crying and beg forgiveness

and say he was sorry and tell us the truth? No. In fact, anything he says from this point on is a lie and it's only for his self gratification or for his aggrandizement. Of course, he didn't even, I don't even know if I saw it blink, Cheryl. You're absolutely right.

And I think that's another reason when they addressed him about what he did, he did not give them anything that he could get enjoyment from. He didn't get that sadness, that gut wrenching, I caused this chaos, I caused this heartache. They took that away from them. I thought her words were not just brilliant, but spot on, and it might have just set the bar for everybody coming behind her. were not just brilliant, but spot on. And it might've just set the bar for everybody coming behind her.

You know, Cheryl McCall, I'm gonna ask you a personal question. In all the years I've known you, all the years we've worked together, I've never asked you, have you ever listened to testimony, or in this case, a sentencing hearing, and get physically nauseous

because I actually got sick to my stomach listening to all this and hearing what these victims families lived through in the ordeal that they're still going through. It was like the worst flashback I've had in years. You know I certainly often you know would find myself just choking up, like getting really emotional and crying because you can't hear it as a sister, as a daughter. Now, especially as a mother, I can tell you I could stay pretty good in control

prior to having Huck and Caroline. After that, I'm much more sensitive, I'm much more apt. I'm much more, you know, apt to just try to imagine the unthinkable. The just, there's no way to put into words. You and I have talked about it, Nancy. You and I have sat with more than one victim and tried to help them craft their victim impact statement. How do you put it into words what your child means to you? It's impossible that these families did a remarkable job today. There's no doubt about it. Okay, can we all agree that the families were

remarkable? Every speaker in their own way was remarkable, but is there justice? Will we ever know what happened? We may never know a motive. We may never know how this thing went down. And I've got to tell you, there's always questions and they never go away. For the rest of the victim's family's life, they're going to wonder, well, wait a minute. Did she see who attacked her? Does she have any idea? Had they ever met?

Did they fight back? What happened? And those are questions not everybody wants to know the answer to, but a lot of victims' families want to know what happened in the last moments of their child's life. You know, we read in news releases and obituaries, ex-died with their family around them. It wasn't like this for the Idaho victims.

They died at the hands of Brian Koberger who slaughtered them. And now we've got to give him three hots and a cot for the rest of his life. Now I do appreciate what Judge Hippler did. I've got nothing bad to say about Hippler. Listen to how he described that morning of November 13. During the quiet morning hours of November 13, 2022, a faceless coward breached the tranquility of six beautiful young people and senselessly slaughtered them, four of them. Who committed this unspeakable evil

was unknown for several weeks, but due to the killers incompetence and outstanding police work by numerous local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. The person that slithered through that sliding glass door at 1122 King Road now stands before the world and this court unmasked. This unfathomable and senseless act of evil has caused immeasurable pain and loss. No parent should ever have to bury their child. This is the greatest tragedy that can be inflicted upon a person. Parents who took their children to college in a truck filled with moving boxes had to bring them home in hearses lined with cottons. Or one of the roommates has passed out and she was drunk last night and she's not waking

up. Did you, on November 13, 2022, in Laetaw County, state of Idaho, kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalves, Zana Cronoble, Ethan Chapin? Yes. Oh, and they saw some men in their house. Brian Koberger gets life plus life plus life plus life plus ten consecutively, one after the other, life without parole. Will there ever truly be justice?

We've got to pay for three hots that are caught for this guy. We've got to pay for his therapy and a cot for this guy. We've got to pay for his therapy and his iPad and his vegan meals. And one day we're going to have to pay for his Internet connection so he can zoom with people to describe his side of the story and help co-author his book and his made for TV movie and blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, now I just figured out why the whole thing made me nauseous because of that. Well, one shining light in today was Olivia Gonçalves. Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up to your family home on December 30th, 2022. Which do you regret more? Returning to the crime scene five hours later or never, ever going back to Moscow, not even once, after stalking them there for months. If you were really smart, do you think you'd be here right now?

What's it like needing this much attention just to feel real? You're terrified of being ordinary, aren't you? Do you feel anything at all? Or are you exactly what you always feared? Nothing. If you're so powerful, then why are you still hiding, defendant? You see, I'm here today as me. But who are you? Let's try to take off your mask and see. Olivia Goncalves is laying into Brian Coburger, and I find it really interesting the way she talked to him and asked him these questions,

many of them out of his own questionnaire, and that he, as part of his PhD studies, would ask convicted violent felons behind bars. What were you thinking before you committed the violent crime? What went through your mind? How did you meet the victims? Just tons and tons of personal questions.

But here she talks about many of the mistakes he made, mistakes that led to his uncovering. What about it, Joe Scott Morgan? You know, he, I think, I think that he longs for this opportunity to talk to people. That's one of the reasons he didn't say anything in the closing. That's one of the things he didn't, one of the reasons we didn't have any form of allocution from him, Nancy.

He wants to control things on his own terms. I love what the judge said relative to preventing him from creating anything in the future. Can I submit one thing to you real quick? Yes. The idea that he's going to not be allowed to talk to anybody from Hollywood about a story or whatever the judge alluded to that. Understand academics are just as mercenary, okay?

Because they're going to cloak themselves and say that we need to study this guy. What the hell else do we have to learn from him? Stick him in a deep dark hole. I don't ever want to hear his name again after today to be perfectly honest with you. I agree Joe Scott. I hope I never hear him or see him again. But all this business about how he cannot appeal the plea. That's not right. There's a US Supreme Court decision that says you can appeal a guilty plea that you willingly and knowingly enter. For instance, what if a year from now he finds out that some other person confessed a false confession. He could go back and claim newly discovered evidence and have

that guilty plea thrown out. That's just an example. Guilty pleas can be appealed. So to think he'll never appeal this, that's a pipe dream. But I was noticing in the questioning and I'm going to go now to Dr. Siobhan Scott, psychotherapist and bestselling author. Her new release is Nightbird and she wrote The Minds of Mass Killers. Dr. Siobhan Scott, there's so much more to say about you, but I want to ask you about Olivia Goncalves addressing Brian Coburger in court. She says, if you were really smart, do you think you'd be here right now?

Do you? What does it feel like to need this much attention just to feel real? That and other questions, I've got them all laid out in front of me. She really called him on all of his mistakes about how he looked down his nose at everybody else and felt superior to everybody else. But now he's the one in shackles in the orange jumpsuit.

Yeah, I think she was brilliant because if you really want to jab at this guy's ego, that's the way to go about it is highlight his inadequacies, his mistakes, the ways that he thought he was such a brilliant killer and he was gonna get away with it and he didn't. And hit him in that ego because we know he has an ego and I think she did that beautifully. It's one of the awful things about psychopaths like this who are sadistic. Often when they hear the family's pain,

they get a perverse sense of pleasure out of it. They may sit there very stoic, they may not have a reaction, but inside, they're enjoying it. I've heard them say, I liked listening to the family suffering because they get off on suffering. Ugh, it's awful.

Dr. Siobhan Scott, I know that up here that killers enjoy watching on TV, watching The Hunt, watching the press conferences of people frantically looking for them. They like watching the victim's family begging. They like it. That's always been what I believed. But to hear you say it, that you know it, that you've spoken to killers that tell you they enjoyed it. I'm just wondering, Cheryl McCollum, I'm just wondering if that piece of crap, Brian Coburger enjoyed watching the victims' families suffering in court today because about based on what Siobhan is telling me, Dr. Siobhan Scott, he probably did that freaking perv.

Nancy, this is his big event. He caused all of this. Every single person that showed up today showed up because of him. Everybody upset. He did it. Everybody that wasn't there. Teachers and neighbors and friends and fraternity brothers. He caused every bit of that pain and anguish and chaos. Every police officer. He did it. This is the biggest thing he will ever do in his life. This is the only thing anybody's ever going to talk to him about, won't hear

from him about. He has nothing else to offer. But I want to say one thing about justice and I want to make this really clear. When you talk about an eye for an eye, that sounds even. Like you took $20 from me, you got to give me $20 back. There is nothing that you could do to that man that would equal justice for those children. They were beautiful. They were loving. They were given. They were friendly.

They were generous. He's none of those things. You can't get justice from him. If we put him in the electric chair and killed him, well how many times do we get to kill him? How many times can we revive him and kill him again? There is nothing mid-evil enough we could do to him. I've got a great answer for that. I would say four. I'd say four, four times to, did you say kill them and revive them again? Yeah, might go that far in seeking justice.

I mean, I don't know if there ever is justice, but I know one thing. I know Olivia Goncalves is a superstar. Listen to this. You didn't create devastation. You revealed it in yourself. And that darkness you carry, that emptiness, you'll sit with it long after this is over.

That is your sentence. And it was written on the wall long before you ever pled guilty. You didn't win. You just exposed yourself as the coward you are. You're a delusional, pathetic, hypochondriac loser who thought you were so much smarter than everybody else. Constantly scolding, turning your nose up to grammar mistakes, nitpicking and criticizing

others. You wanted so badly to be different, to be special, to be better, to be deep, to be mysterious. You found yourself thinking you were better than everyone else and you thought you could figure out the human psyche and see through it all while tweaked out on heroin. Lurking in the shadows made you feel powerful because no one ever paid you any attention in the light. Two words, the bomb. Olivia Gonzales, the bomb. Did you hear what she said? Straight out to Greg Morris chomping at the bit. Veteran criminal defense attorney at Morris Illegal, author of The Untested on Amazon and you can find him at morseillegal.com. Man, this girl's

got a future in front of her if she wants to be a felony prosecutor. Did you hear her? You're right. Constantly scolding, you know, nobody hates anything more than a know-it-all. Constantly scolding, turning your nose up to grammar mistakes. Remember, he was a TA. No, we do. Nitpicking, criticizing. Yep.

What? If there's, if there's something that will stay with him for the rest of his life, Nip picking, criticizing. Yep. What? If there's something that will stay with him for the rest of his life, it will be Olivia's allocution statement to him, or victim impact statement, on behalf of her sister. I've done this job for a long time. We can go back to the beginnings of criminals.

Criminals are morons. This guy was a nobody who wanted to be special. And he's a nobody loser moron. And she called him on that. And now all the other stuff, I think your experts are right. He liked to see the family struggle. And you know, I caused all this,

but that all stopped in his head when Olivia, and the judge said something important too. He called him incompetent. When you attack a moron and call him for what he is, is what the sister did to him. She can for what is there is no closure in these cases. The trauma is too deep. My dad used to say a parent who loses a child is only waiting to die. And so there is no closure.

But knowing the criminal mind and knowing that this is born of stupidity, this is born of a loser, a weak person, a lazy person, that sister statement, he will roll that over. And what he's gonna do is he's gonna think to himself, I'll show you, but he'll never be able to. So he will live in misery, let alone it's not three hots and a cop. Our prison systems in America are difficult.

Food is industrial level. So he will have a horrible experience. Every day will be, how do I stop death? Death doesn't create. Are you actually saying his placement is to have food that you would need? He's not getting his private chef to make him five star meals? No, no, no, no, no.

You're not understanding. Nancy, in a civil society, we can't just go around shooting people. It's not, he will have a miserable existence and Olivia's statements will ring in his head because he is going to want to show her he's somebody, but he's a nobody. And she called him on it and Bravo to her for having the courage to do that. You know what, Morris, it just hit me and all the years that I prosecuted felony cases and I would be in a closing argument and I would talk about all the years that I prosecuted felony cases. And I would be in a closing argument

and I would talk about all the mistakes the defendant made and how he got caught. Like it could be a fingerprint. It could be driving under a street lamp and somebody getting the tag ID. It could be loose lips that sink ships where they said something that only the killer would know, that kind of thing. And there were a couple of times, and this was rare for me, as you can only imagine,

that I would break a smile because such an idiot. Those were the only times when you would kind of get a laugh off the defendant how stupid and competent they were, that you would get a rise out of the defendant. That would make them mad. No remorse, no shame. But when it's pointed out to them, hey, you screwed up a hole.

That's how you got caught. That's the only way you'd get a rise out of them. And when Olivia Gonsalves was talking about, you think you're so smart. You think you're brilliant. Look what you did, idiot. Well, that's what it is. That will stick with him, Morse.

So he called him out on his, you know, the way he viewed himself that was phony. Not just you did this wrong or that, which was very impactful also, but also on, we know that you're a nobody. We know you're a loser who thinks you're special and that's why you did this, but everybody knows you're not

and very, to have the courage to be that articulate in such a unimaginable for anyone who hasn't experienced. I can't imagine, even though I've sat in courtrooms and listened to this, I still, no one can imagine what it's like unless you go through it. And also just to point out, that was very smart of the prosecutor for the family to get the appellate waiver.

We do that a lot in federal cases, at least in Florida, we don't do that much in state cases when there's a plea, which most cases resolved by. But yes, you're right, there are very now narrow circumstances he can appeal a habeas petition, an ineffective counsel, those petitions usually go nowhere fast. So that was a good thing for the family that maybe they don't realize now. But every time there's something in the paper about the initial brief was filed and now there's an appeal going to be heard that That overwhelms the family and feels like there's no,

this is going to open up again. I bet they feel a lot better when that firing squad goes down no more. Yeah. Speaking, yeah, well, that's you talking. That's not them talking. Olivia Goncalves didn't stop there. You thought you were exceptional all because of a grade on a paper. You thought you were elite because your online IQ test from 2010 told you so. All

of that effort just to seem important. It's desperate. There is a name for your condition though. Your inflated ego just didn't allow you to see it. wannabe. You act like no one could ever understand your mind, but the truth is you're basic. You're a textbook case of insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable. Your motives are shallow. You are not profound. You're pathetic.

You aren't special or deep, not mysterious or exceptional. Don't ever get it twisted again. No one is scared of you today. No one is intimidated by you. No one is impressed by you. No one thinks that you are important. You orchestrated this like you thought you were God. Now look at you, begging a courtroom for scraps.

You spent months preparing and still all it took was my sister and a sheath. You work so hard to seem dangerous, but real control doesn't have to prove itself. I just want to stand up and cheer right now. I want to cheer this woman. I know I've got other victim impact statements for you to hear, but I just want to give you one more little bit of this girl. I'm telling you Olivia Goncalves, and if this is any tiny example, a tiny example of what her sister, Keila Goncalves, was like, I mean, she would have set the world on fire. Listen. The truth is, the scariest part about you

is how painfully average you turned out to be. The truth is, as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty. Let me be very clear. Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because someone finally said your name out loud. You thought I see through you. You want the truth? Here's the one you'll hate the most. If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylee would have kicked your ass. Thank you. Thank you. 9-1 on location of your emergency. Life plus life plus life plus life to run consecutively.

That's what Koberger got today. Many people thought that a jury should at least be given the choice of the death penalty. That did not happen over the objections of about half the victims families. Just got Morgan. I want you and the rest of our panel to listen to what Olivia Goncalves said.

She says, just because you took an online IQ test, you think you're brilliant? Man, okay, that hurt. You're a wannabe and you're just basic. You're basic. You know, like a car that doesn't have any upgrades on it. It's just like plastic on wheels. That's what she's saying. And all this time, Coburger thought he was so... Yeah, he did. He thought he was a legend in his own mind.

And you know, you can see that that's demonstrated in academia, Nancy, this idea that he went to WSU and he, you know, first off he treats all of his students, those that he's a TA for, like garbage, particularly the women. I think that's kind of significant in this case. And then those that are in a position of authority over him, Nancy, he's only one semester into a doctoral program. Let's face it, in that position, you're lower than Pond Scum at that point in time. You have no voice in that environment. You're there to work and do what you're told to do. And I don't think that it would balance out in his mind. I think that for a long time, he thought that he was the smartest person in the room and he failed miserably.

I love the fact that she used this term basic, that he thought that he was some kind of superstar. I don't know for how long now, I've had people that have approached me that have said, oh, well, you know, he took these classes in college and he was exposed to this and that. Well, you know what? I watch NASCAR on Sunday afternoon, doesn't make me a damn NASCAR driver. You know, and that's about the extent of it.

He has no experience in forensics whatsoever. And yeah, he was able to clean up after himself, but in the end the science got him. He's not that bright. You know, Dr. Duane Hendricks is with us. He is former associate warden, MDC Brooklyn, former senior warden with the U.S. Department of Justice, with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He founded the New Daylight Foundation. He's the author of Who Are You?

See It, Say It, Seize It. Dr. Hendricks, you've seen it all, as have many of us on the panel. Why do defendants think they know everything? And then they're so angry when somebody says you took an online IQ test, get over it. Well, Nancy, he appears and I'm not a psychologist by profession, but I think he's a sociopath. And for some reason, I agree what Professor Scott talked about, you know, thinking, you know, some of the thoughts about him, you know,

being the smartest person in the room, thought he controlled everything, and now he's been exposed for what he truly is by the fact that he didn't say anything today at the sentencing hearing. He didn't apologize. He didn't take any responsibility for his actions. And I'm, I'm

Did you not hear me talking about the pet lizard that just goes, when you talk to it, that's Kodberger. What'd you think he was going to say? I'm sorry. I did it. No, I didn't think that, but I, but I am concerned about where you, if he's going to have, I don't know if he's had a cell has a cellmate just yet But I think the fact that he probably does want to be more famous. He does want to continue this conversation

I'm very concerned that he'll probably reoffend again Especially if they don't get the hold of his whatever his mental issues are And I'm not sure where they're gonna house him once he gets to that maximum security prison. I don't think there's a medical diagnosis for this I think you just a straight-up a-hole. I would agree with that and I do believe that he's going to reoffend again because I think he wants to keep his name in the papers his name in the light and depending on where where they house him and who they house him with, uh, is going to determine whether he is either going to reoffend or if he's going to be harmed in some, some way, he may end up being a victim of

homicide himself there in the state of Idaho. Oh, Hendrix, Hendrix, Hendrix, my poor naive Dr. Dwayne Hendrix. How many times do we hear people say there'll be prison justice. When is there prison justice? I've known of, I can count on one hand, the number of times a killer has been killed behind bars because of what he did. There was one Catholic priest who was killed because one of his molested victims happened to be in that facility and killed him.

There aren't that many cases of prison justice. There's a lot of fights and there's a lot of murders, but not in the name of prison justice. So can we just put that myth to bed, Hendrix? No, I don't. I won't. I respect your opinion, Nancy, but this who he is, because remember, I always say there's two things you don't want to be in prison one an informant one of those a

sex offender but the third is the category he fits himself in inmates don't like inmates who harm women and he killed three women since you know all that dr. Hendricks name me three people just three we'll just start with three and that have been murdered behind bars to get back at them for what they did. Said, what was it, Jeffrey Dahmer, I believe was one. I can't name the other two. Yep, that's one that was on my list.

Yeah, it's Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't have the other two, but I guarantee you. Oh, okay, so that guy was on my list. Okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, they're out there, but I don't know their names. You sound like one of the defendants

that get on the stand under my cross examination and try to blame somebody else. I'm like, well, what's their name? I don't know what they look like. I don't know. Because they're not any. There's not any. You got father John Gogue and he was 68. He was

convicted of child molestation and he was murdered behind bars by Joseph Druse out of rage at what the father had done. And the assailant was a victim of child molestation. So that's two, two in history that we can thinkation. So that's two, two in history that we can think of. So don't count on prison justice. We should meet out justice. The court should meet out justice. We shouldn't rely on inmates to meet out justice. Okay. That's two, Hendrix. I'm going to give you a timeout

while you can Google and find out if there's anybody else. In the meantime, you've heard Sister Goncalves, Olivia. Now take a listen to Mother Goncalves. I love this woman. You are entering a place where no one will care who you are and no one will ever respect you. You will be forgotten, discarded, used, and erased. You will always be remembered as a loser, an absolute failure, and when those prison doors slam shut behind you, I hope that sound echoes in your heart for the rest of your meaningless days. I hope it reminds you of what we all already know. You're nothing. May you

continue to live your life in misery. You are officially the property of the state of Idaho where your fellow inmates are anxiously awaiting your arrival. But it's okay because they're there to help you. And she didn't leave it there. She sent Koeberger a message from her youngest daughter. Listen. Quick message from our youngest daughter. Aubrey wanted to say you may have received A's in high school and college but you're gonna be getting big D's in prison. Thank you. Joining me is Susan Hendricks, who has been in the courtroom throughout covering this today.

You heard the mom of Kelly Gonzalva speak. She sends a message from the little sister Aubrey and Aubrey says, Coeburger, you may have received A's in high school and college, but you're going to be getting big D's in prison. Yeah. Okay. You don't have to spell that out for me. What was the reaction in the courtroom to that? Speaking of prison justice. I was kind of looking around and there were, of course, officers in there and there was kind of a chuckle and take it back and then applause. If there was a master class on how to get to a psychopathic sociopath, it was the Gonzales

family. It's the only time in court, because I could directly see kind of his jawline, only about 20 feet from Kober or 30 feet, that he clenched it when she talked about how he treats his students and how he's nothing and I'm paraphrasing here. It got to him and I saw it. Guys, we also heard from Zana Cronotl's sister Jasmine. Listen. Because the truth is you don't deserve power over my feelings, my words or me. You don't deserve power over my feelings, my words, or me. In the end, I realized this moment isn't about you. It's about justice for Zana, Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie.

It's about honoring the beautiful people they were and still are in God's eyes. Zana didn't get the future she deserved. She won't be the maid of honor at my wedding, the cool aunt to my future children. I'll never hear her laugh or see her light up a room ever again, but I will carry her with me for the rest of my life. I will live in her honor, fight to be the best kind of woman and someone she's proud of to make sure the world never

forgets who she was. That was so poignant, Cheryl McCollum, when the sister is describing how Zana will never be her maid of honor. I mean, and it makes you think it evokes all the future events that will never happen. When she describes the future events that are never happen. When she describes the future events that are never gonna happen, again, the families live with this loss every single day. And some of those events are gonna be so powerful

when she does get married and her sister isn't there, when she has her children and her sister's not there. But just those general days, just an average Wednesday that you can't call and talk about something funny that happened or call and say, I felt the baby or, you know, I picked out flowers, whatever it is, those are such powerful moments that will be tarnished. You know, Cheryl, you just gave me a flashback. When I found out I was going to have the twins, I was sent to Virginia Tech, remember the shooting at Virginia Tech, and I didn't have anybody to tell.

I got out of the car, pulled over to the side of the interstate and call my sister in California and I was standing on the side of the interstate and that's who I had to tell and that will never happen that will never happen for Jasmine and we also heard from Zanna's stepfather, Randy, and you could tell he has been through hell. You, man, I don't know what my limits are here, but I'm really struggling, dude. I am struggling, so I want to just be out in the woods with you just so I can teach you about loss and pain. I love God. I wouldn't take your life. That's up to Him.

But I guarantee you, you are weak. God, I would just give a moment, man. Five minutes out in the woods. Oh man. You're gonna go to hell. I know people believe in other stuff. You're evil. There's no place for you in heaven. You took our children. You are gonna suffer man. I'm shaking so I want to reach out to you but I just I hope you feel my energy okay? Go to hell. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For one moment, I thought he was gonna leap across that lectern and get Koberger by the neck. We also heard words from Dylan Mortenson.

She and Bethany have been attacked so brutally in the press since the murders. They're lucky to be alive today. Let's know what Dylan Mortenson relayed. I was barely 19 when he did this. We had just celebrated my birthday at the end of September. I should have been figuring out who I was. I should have been having the college experience and starting to establish my future. Instead, I was forced to learn how to survive the unimaginable.

I couldn't be alone. I had to sleep in my mom's bed because I was too terrified to close my eyes, terrified that if I blinked, someone might be there. I made escape plans everywhere I went. If something happens, how do I get out? What can I use to defend myself? Who can help? Then there are the panic attacks.

The kind that slam into me like a tsunami out of nowhere. I can't breathe. I can't think. I can't stop shaking. All I can do is scream. It just is like a stab to hear Dillon Mortenson describing what she's still living through. The panic attacks where she can't breathe. She said it feels like a tsunami wave hitting her.

She can't stop shaking. All she can do is scream. It's real. There's nothing wrong with her. This is normal. This is trauma that she may never get over. Listen to more of Dylan Morton. People call me strong. They say I'm a survivor, but they don't see what my new reality looks like. They don't see the panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the way I scan

every room I enter, the way I flinch at sudden sounds, they don't know how heavy it is to carry so much pain and still be expected to keep going, and that's because of him. He still parts with me. I may never get back. He took the version of me who didn't constantly ask, what if it happens again? What if next time I don't survive? Susan Henrich is joining us from the courthouse. Susan, explain to everyone how she came across

as she was giving her impact statement. Oh, that was heart wrenching. It was, her heart was bleeding. She was being honest about her life has been torture ever since she thinks when will I be next look what you took from me these were my friends and this was the only time I looked over Ryan Coburger's mother was there no sign of his father 2 sisters they were wiping tears they connected with her they felt

that I saw it but I feel for you could tell that it took everything but she had to be there. She had to read that statement. And just saying how people expect me to go on and I don't know how to. You know, Dr. Siobhan Scott, he's joining us. Renowned psychotherapist, bestselling author. Dr. Siobhan, it's hard for people that haven't lived through it and people shouldn't understand it.

I don't want them to have to understand it. But this is real. I've seen victims literally shaking all over when they had to take the witness stand and recount what happened to them, what they lived through. It's brutal. And for the rest of your life, anything can trigger it. Yeah, we're really talking about severe, severe post-traumatic stress.

And that changes the brain. I've lived through it and I completely get it. The brain can just break. We can be emotionally shattered. And we're never the same people we would have been if we hadn't have gone through something like that. And in treatment, we certainly work with survivors. We do our best to try to help them

come to some degree of healing, but the world is never safe for them again, and they're never the same. And they move through it completely differently than they would have if they'd not been through that trauma. And I guarantee you, Sheryl McCollum, just her testifying or speaking in court today will make it all come back.

And you and I have had to beg witnesses to testify. Right. Beg them, because they don't want to beg witnesses to testify. Right. Beg them, because they don't want to relive it, even verbally. She even said, I'm shaking right now. She's having to face him. But let me say this, this is my prayer for her. With all the panic attacks

and the escape plans that she puts into place, and her life of torture, she faced that devil today and I hope she understands the power in that. Guys we've all heard the name Dylan Mortenson but the other name the other girl that lived. Finally she tells us what she told police what happened that night. A few answers, listen. When I first woke up that morning, I had no idea what happened. I woke up around seven with a terrible toothache. So I called my dad, who is a dentist, and he asked what I should do.

He told me to take Advil, so I did, and I went back to sleep. I was still out of it and still didn't know what happened. If I had known, I of course would have called 911 right away. I still carry so much regret and guilt for not knowing what had happened and not calling right away. Even though I understand it wouldn't have changed anything, not even if the paramedics had been right outside the door. You know, Greg Moore's veteran defense attorney, but today I think we're on the same side for once. We're now a lawyer at Morris Legal and author of The Untested on Amazon.

Greg, that, I have no shrink, but I know what that is, it's survivor's guilt. And she is explaining why she didn't immediately call 911 while there were several hours delay because she's been attacked so much in the media. People have even written online in Ainsley, I think she was part of it. She was not part of it. She just explained what happened and who would have imagined it was a toothache. You know, people that don't experience things have the biggest mouths that speak from ignorance, and that's all that is.

I hope that she can put that burden down because the only person responsible for anything that happened that day was Brian Kohlberger. Not one human in that house had anything to do with it. They didn't cause it to last, and it's unfortunate that she lived, and she has to live with that too, right? Her friends and the therapists on the panel know this.

I mean, she lived, like you said, survivor's guilt. Her friends are dead and now people are attacking her for she should have done X. How could you not call 911? And it's, you know, I think people, it's a natural instinct. They filter logical, rational choices through trauma. And when trauma happens, logical, rational choices don't usually. That's the whole point.

And that's what's difficult. And it's, if you're gonna say anything negative about someone like that, you're just a loser. Plain and simple. And if you're on a computer doing it, you're like a loser's loser. I agree, I agree, Morse. Yeah. Now, Morse're like a loser's loser. Agree. Agree, Morse. Yeah.

Now, Morse is talking about survivor's guilt. Everybody on this panel has seen it in the courtroom, people that live. But listen to what, now Bethany is having a friend read this for her in court. I want you to listen to what she, Bethany, relays. I still think about this every day. Why me? Why did I get to live and not them? For the longest time I could not even look at their families without feeling sick with guilt.

I did not know what to say or what to do. I was terrified that my presence just made their pain worse. And I was still here when their kid, their siblings and their friends, their loved ones should have been here instead. Their loved ones should have been here instead. Their loved ones should have been here instead and not me. She's gonna carry this with her the rest of her life while Coburger makes the made for TV movie behind bars. Listen to her suffering. I slept in my parents' room for almost a year. I made them double lock every door, set an alarm,

and still check everywhere in the room just in case someone was hiding. And I still check my room every night before and I double lock it. I have not slept through a single night since this happened. I constantly wake up in panics, terrified. Someone is breaking in or someone is here to hurt me or I'm about to lose someone else that I love. Cheryl McCollum, final thought? I think the courage and grace and dignity that we saw today with every single person that took the podium was unbelievable. But I also have to say one pretty gangster move was Ethan's family who

didn't show because Brian Kurger didn't deserve it. Greg Morris, you and I have seen countless victim impact statements, but I've got to say the ones today in that Coburger courtroom, well, they weren't like anything I've ever seen before, but I still believe this case should have gone to a jury trial. I will always say that because for the rest of their lives, and just admit it, Morse, don't fight with me about this. You know the rest of these victims' families' lives. They're going to wonder.

They're going to wake up in the middle of the night. They may be driving down the road when it hits them. What was the last thing she saw? What was the last thing he felt? Did he think about me before he died? Will I ever see them again? They'll never have any of those answers. You're right. Coburn was never going to answer. If he did say anything, which he didn't, it would be a lie. And the only way they would have found answers is by a trial.

Well, I don't know if they would have found those answers though, and the prosecution could have absolutely made that a part of the plea. So there actually was a measure of control that the prosecution controlled, but a trial is not going to unfortunately answer a lot of those questions. And the death penalty wouldn't change those feelings for the family. All the questions, all the questions about what happened that night.

Whose room did he enter? Who was killed first? Did this one hear that one screaming? What did they live through? I still wonder that now after all these years. What did Keith live through? I don't really know what happened. I mean, it happens the rest of your life, Morse.

Having been in this situation with a client who was a family member blamed for a crime. Mom killed dad and blamed the son. Thankfully, the son had me as a lawyer. And to go through and you know, you're the, you're the victim of trauma, there is no right answer. There's nothing that heals that. So you try this, you try that, you think this will give relief, but a trial will not.

One thing I know in sex cases and murder cases, you have to be very delicate on how you, we get depositions in Florida in criminal cases. You have to be very delicate how you litigate a case when there's a victim and those two type things are a victim's family because you will lose any opportunity to do something decent for your client in resolving the case. So a trial will probably only hurt because you're going to get the horror with maybe one or two of those answers. Well, I've never heard an actual victim state a trial only hurt.

Just got Morgan. What about it? You know, Nancy, we've been covering this case since it happened all this time. And I've got to tell you, there's this one, these one moments that I never would have counted on that are going to be etched into my brain. And that's the sound of applause in the courtroom. I never expected it. I know you've handled a lot of cases. You've been in court.

And I'm sure you've heard applause before. But the fact that the judge gave them that kind of latitude in there, it kind of, you know, reinforced these comments that the families are making relative to Coburger as he's sitting there and everybody's cheering on and it's almost like you could feel you could feel this momentum building along the way and I know that that's very little recompense after everything that has occurred but that one moment those moments that were captured in there of the gallery applauding in there these impact statements, it goes to reinforce that all of the people on social media that are out there, that they come up with these crackpot conspiracy theories, the people in that courtroom, they're

behind these families, they're behind these victims, they support them. And I think that that's what should be remembered here. As we close tonight, I know that there will never be peace. There will never be peace or closure for these victims' families. But I do pray for them with the knowledge that the victims are now resting in peace. Good night, friend.