Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - YouTube Mom Ruby Franke in Court, Blames Her Little Children for Sex Abuse, Porn

Episode Date: September 14, 2023

Ruby Franke makes shocking claims in court. The mom accused of child abuse, claims that one of her minor children sexually abused siblings, and molested several other family members,  and children in the neighborhood, for years.  Franke alleges one of her children began looking at pornography at just 3 years old.  Franke says two children played a "patting game" with each other, but did not give details to the court about that game.  Franke provided no proof of her allegations. The judge then said that her alleged abusive child 'will then need to be placed in a home with no other children.' Joining Nancy Grace Today: Heidi Nestel - Executive Director of Utah Crime Victims Legal Clinic (a non-profit legal firm that provides free legal representation to victims in the criminal justice system) and Former County Prosecutor; FaceBook: Utah Crime Victims Legal Clinic, Instagram:  @utahvictimsclinic Dr. Dana Anderson – Forensic Psychologist, Forensic Expert; Twitter: @psychologydrcom, TikTok: @psychologydr Jason Jensen – Private Investigator (Jensen Private Investigations), Cold Case Expert (Salt Lake City, UT), and Co-founder: “Cold Case Coalition;” Investigations; Twitter: @JasonJPI, Facebook/Instagram: “Jensen Investigations” Brad Watts - Licensed Professional Counselor and Certified Sex Offender Treatment Provider (who specializes in working with families where sibling sexual abuse has occurred); Author: “Sibling Sexual Abuse: America’s Silent Epidemic;" bradwattslpc.com, Instagram: @bradwattslpc  Shelby Asher, BSN, RN, NYSAFE, SANE-P, SANE-P - Sexual Assault Forensic Nurse Examiner and Forensic Nurse Expert with Godoy Medical Forensics (extensive background, and training in pediatric physical and sexual assault); Twitter: @godoyforensics, FB: Godoy Medical Forensics Incorporated Emily Ashcraft- Reporter, KSL.com in Utah; Twitter: @emilyjaneen3     See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Incredibly famous YouTuber, a mommy vlogger, Ruby Frankie, her family now says she should be, quote, put away in jail forever. Really? You're saying that now? Well, where were you when her children, and this is a mommy vlogger that gives millions of people parenting advice. Where were you, Frankie family, when she was duct taping her children and starving them? Where were you when she was keeping them hidden in the house? Now you want her in jail? Day late, dollar short.

I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. This now notorious mommy vlogger, you believe she is telling all of us how to raise children? You know, I learned that police or defects would go to the home and the children would actually hide. They wouldn't speak to the teachers or the school detectives that tried to find out what was going.

And you know what? Shame on them, not the children, but the cops, defects and school detectives who didn't follow up. When you have a child that basically hides from you, when you're asking it a simple question, there's something horribly wrong, but they just dropped the ball and it resulted in a little boy starved, bound with duct tape, sneaking out and running to a neighbor's home to try to get something to drink and eat. Yeah, and then when Ruby Frankie ends up in court, guess what she does? I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for this. She actually blames her children and said that at

least one of them started watching porn when he was three years old and that they're molesting each other. What? Oh, did they starve themselves to and bind themselves with duct tape? Guys, let's just start at the beginning with a 911 call. Listen. I just had a 12 year old boy show up here at my front door asking for help. And he said he just came from a neighbor's house. And we know there's been problems at this neighbor's house.

He's emaciated. He's got tape around his legs. He's hungry and he's thirsty. I'm sitting outside with him on the front patio. He asked us to call the police. So he's very afraid. He's 12 years old. Okay. And are the neighbors out of their home or is anybody looking for him that you can see? No, we are homes are far enough away. I'm not sure. How did you get out of the house? He said he just left through the porch at the neighbor's house.

Her name is Jody Hildebrand. I didn't tie into the houses are far apart. So he walked just under the block to get to our house. He rang my doorbell and asked me to call the police. So it's my understanding with me, an incredible panel, but first to Emily Ashcroft, reporter at KSL.com in Utah. Emily, thank you for being with us. From what I'm deciphering from the 911 call, I'm sure we'll learn exactly the answers to all of these questions. Is it the little boy wanted them to call 911? He's 12 years old and he's very afraid, emaciated and bound with duct tape. Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

He tried to get out and that is a good strategy to go to a neighbor's home and ask for emergency help in this situation. This kid must have been so afraid to run to a neighbor's and beg them to call 911. Let's listen to more of the 911 call to find out what else we can learn. His ankles are taped up, and he won't tell us why. Okay. But he has duct tape around each ankle. Yeah, there's sores around them. I think there's a good chance he's been... He also has... Oh, and he has been around his ankle. Yeah, there's sores around them. I think there's a good chance he's been... Oh, and he has been around his ankles. I mean, his wrists as well. Okay, this boy has been...

This kid has obviously been... I think he's been detained. He's obviously covered in wounds. Okay. Let's get the paramedics headed over that way, okay? Oh, that's a good idea, too. Let's see. Has he told you where his mom or dad are?

Do you know where your mom is? I really got these things. Well, actually, I don't know where my mom is, but I do know where my dad are. You know where your mom is? I really don't know. Well, actually, I don't know where my mom is, but I do know where my dad is. He's not anywhere here. No, no, no. Okay. No, he doesn't seem to. He says he knows where his mom is. He doesn't know where his dad is. So much to figure out right there. I want to go to Shelly Asher. Listen to all these initials. BSN, RN, NY, SAFE, SAME-P. Sex Assault Forensic Nurse Examiner. I know that much. Forensic Nurse Expert with Godoy Medical Forensics. Extensive background in pediatric physical

and sex assault. Shelby Asher, thank you for being with us. Did you hear the male 911 caller break down in tears saying he's got duct tape around each ankle, around his wrist, and there's sores around them? That means, in my mind, he's been duct taped for a long time, and now there are sores forming. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. You know, I wouldn't be shocked. It really, you know, there are some dependent factors. Depends, like you said, how long they've been there, how tight these were on his extremities. But yeah, generally, I'd expect to see, you know, some patterned injury, meaning ligature like marks around in this case, his ankles and wrists. I definitely expect to see abrasions, lacerations due to, you know, the shearing of the skin

in those areas. What do you mean by shearing of the skin? You know, the top layer kind of rubbing off like an abrasion just from that friction of having that bound his ankles and wrists. I'm just thinking about this little boy and his little sister that was back in the home. Listen to more of that 9-1-1. He just says he doesn't live around here. Is your mom around here. You've seen her lately. He doesn't know where she is right now. What's your mom's name? Ruby Frankie.

Ruby Frankie is his mom's name. F R a and Katie. He says he, uh, what's happened to him is his fault. Oh dear to hear their comments to you as quick as they can, okay? Okay, yeah. I just want to make sure. He's fine. I've got him sitting here. My wife, we got him water and something to give him something to eat because he's really hungry and he's a young man.

He's here in his stocking feet. So he escaped. Does he have anything with him? No, he's wearing a long sleeve shirt and shorts and it's way too big for him. Can you tell me what color the shirt and shorts are? Okay, the ambulance is here. Joining me, thank goodness, is a forensic psychologist and consultant at psychologydoctor.com, Dr. Dana Anderson. Dr. Dana, thank you so much for being with us.

It really struck me when you can hear the little boy saying in the background, living separate, they're divorcing. My dad is, quote, nowhere. He doesn't know where his mom is. And even more striking, he says this is he says this is his fault. It's his fault that he is starving with his bones poking out. It's his fault he's covered in wounds. And nobody's really telling us what those wounds are but I do know that there are open sores associated with the duct tape on the wrists and the ankles and at one point I read across his body which I'm taking to mean the waist or the chest in some manner.

I know those are wounds. Other accounts say open wounds. But he says it's all his fault. Okay, you know what? If someone asked my children right now, where is your mom? They would say she's in the studio. I wouldn't have to tell them where I am. They know where I am and I know where they are.

According to where I left them this morning and according to Life360, which I monitor constantly, if someone asked my children, where's your dad right now? They would say he's at his office. We know where each other is supposed to be. So one, he doesn't know where his mom is. He doesn't know where his dad is. He says, dad is nowhere. And he thinks all of this is his fault.

The his fault. You know, it reminds me of battered women? It's always their fault. They're getting the hell beat out of them. Sometimes the life beat out of them. When I worked at the battered women's center, I remember when one woman got a horrible beating that landed her in the hospital. Her husband said he wanted Mexican for dinner.

She made tacos and he beat her because she made enchiladas. Wait, he wanted tacos, she made enchiladas, something like that. And she thought that was her fault. So help me out here, Dr. Dana. Yeah, it's just heartbreaking to hear that 911 call and just putting myself in his position. That boy, you know, is brainwashed, just like you said, like battered woman syndrome, just that battered syndrome. So over and over, they're being led to believe that it's their fault, that there's something wrong with them, that something that they're doing that they need to stop. And that's why they're being abused and that they have to rationalize the punishment and then this is what

you often hear in victims who have just been beaten down emotionally and psychologically over time they try to cope and rationalize make sense of it so confusing to your brain why this is happening so they can say well it's my fault if i wouldn't have done that if i could have done better but i did this why do people do that why do they think it's them like oh my husband cheated that's my fault because i'm overweight no it's not it's not your fault that he did that if you isolate a victim for so long and isolation is what's happening in this case and you only have that authoritarian figure telling you it's like brainwashing. OK, I've got a theory, Dr. Dana.

What about this? You can't accept that the person you love so much is a monster. OK, here's an example. A friend told me about an acquaintance that shot his dog with a BB gun repeatedly, and the dog kept crawling toward the owner. The dog, that's the only thing the dog knew. This is who feeds me. This is where I sleep.

This is my, I guess, master. And even though the guy was shooting him with a BB gun, the dog would crawl toward the owner. And I've never understood that. And when I'm thinking about this, how awful it must be for a little child, baby, to accept the mom has left me alone. The mom is starving me. The mom bound me. I don't know where she is. I don't know where my dad is.

And so they blame themselves because sometimes that's easier to blame yourself than to accept your whole world's falling apart. The one person you love hates you. It's so terribly conflicting because this is also the mother, the person that's supposed to be nurturing or has nurtured you at times. This is a person that's supposed to feed you and has before.

They need that person. They're reliant on them as babies or children are on their parents. Poor kid, his whole world falling apart. Well, the little boy says, my sister's still back in this home. So the cops finally show up and do something instead of looking in the window and see the children cowering and do nothing. Take a listen to our friends at KUTV. The neighbor clearly moved This boy has been, this kid has obviously been, I think he's been, he's been detained. He's been, he's obviously covered in wounds. Once officers arrived, this is what they discovered inside Hildebrand's home.

There's a panic room inside the garage, downstairs, underneath the garage. Yeah, some of that audio you just heard is when law enforcement appeared to be trying to find some of the boys' siblings. Okay, who is this person? Hildebrandt. So Emily Ashcroft, let me understand this. Jodi Hildebrandt, we believe, was a marriage counselor to vlogger mom with over 2 million followers, Ruby Frankie. She then became a friend, moved into the Frankie home for a period of time, and then it looks like became her co-host on Connections,

a kind of an offshoot of Eight Passengers. Eight Passengers was Ruby Frankie's show, for lack of a better word. Yeah. So more recently, that's the YouTube channel that they've been running. And they have an Instagram together called Moms of Truth. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. OK, I'll tell you what I know about this friend, co-anchor Jesse Hildebrandt speaks out. This is Jody Hildebrandt's niece. I want you guys to take a listen, if you can stand it, to our cut 78. This is Jody Hildebrandt, the marriage counselor, describing what happened to her. Listen. I was physically, I was forced to sleep outside in the snow. I was, like I said, isolated for up to 12 hours a day.

If someone spoke to me directly, if I wasn't wearing duct tape on my mouth, I had to just stare at them and not respond because she also had systems of people that would report back to her if I broke any of these rules. And her whole thing, which is deeply, darkly ironic, is that everything stems from shame and how horrible shame is. And that all of the reasons, like all of mental illness, all tics, so like OCDs, addiction, everything stems from shame, which is just horrifying because she is the greatest perpetuator of shame. And this is who Ruby Frankie has with her children. Also on our panel is Executive Director, Utah Crime Victims Legal legal clinic it's a nonprofit who represents the victims former County prosecutor Heidi Nestle is with us Heidi

thank you so much for being with us so the children are starved they are covered in open wounds they are duct-taped at least at the wrist and the ankles and quote across the body. The little boy says dad's divorcing. He's quote nowhere. I don't know where mommy is. And they're in this home with this woman who's I guess her theory is to shame people into a certain behavior. What happened?

I know there have been many calls to this home. Why are the children still there? That's an excellent question. I mean, these are the most serious physical charges, physical abuse charges that we have in Utah, but they've been charged with. And so it makes sense that this did not just happen overnight. This abuse was going on for a long time and it does call into question, you know, who saw what, especially as far as Ms. Hildebrand is concerned. The reason she's been charged for the exact same crime is because in Utah we have a complex liability that if you aid or encourage someone to commit a crime, that's as if you're committing the crime yourself. And so it's appropriate that she's been charged

and likely will be held accountable for these atrocious crimes. You know, Jason Jensen is with me. I agree with everything Heidi Nestle just said, Jason Jensen. Jensen, private investigator, owner, Jensen Private Investigations, co-founder of the Cold Case Coalition. And you can find him at Jensen Private Investigations dot com. Don't you see a similar transaction happening? You've got the adult niece of Jody Hildebrandt saying, I wasn't allowed to speak to anybody. I had duct tape on my mouth. And now we see these children bound in duct tape. What about that, Jason Jensen? I'm not surprised.

How can you sound so calm? I'm just curious. I'm not surprised. I'm surprised as hell. And I see it every day. But the hypocrisy of this woman being a mommy vlogger. Look, I do the best I can with the children. I do. And I know I'm not an expert. And it would be a cold day in H-E-L-L that I try to give parenting advice. I want people to give me parenting advice. And her children are duct taped.

They're starved, Jason Jensen. Well, yeah, I'm shocked. Where's the outrage? Probably because I'm not going to disrupt your show by personally being emotional about it. But that makes me feel better about you. You're trying to save crime stories. OK, go ahead. Exactly. So basically, the reason why I say I'm not surprised is this came out of somewhere in her path. It wasn't just something they invented. So clearly this is something that she's been cultivating and using in her past, I guess, therapy sessions, which clearly is, you know, in my definition, cruel and unusual for what

she's using against her own family members, let alone, uh, you know, the Frankie family, what she put these kids through is cruel. It is torturous and it is criminal. So it's going to be hard for them to justify. And then, you know, for what Ruby Frankie tried to raise in her hearing as the excuse for it is abhorrent. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, you're not going to believe what you're going to hear next.

It's not just Ruby Frankie. It's not just J.D. Hildebrandt. The system had a hand in this. Brad Watts is joining me. Listen to this, Brad. Hour cut 6061 from KSL. Records reveal officers responded to Frankie's home in Springville 15 times between March 2019 and last week. In April 2022, records show DCFS asked Springville PD to drive through the neighborhood. In September last year, Frankie's oldest daughter asked police to

check on her younger siblings after hearing from neighbors that Frankie had left them home alone in Springville for days. According to police records, the kids were seen through the windows but would not answer the door. But neighbors told officers Ruby Frankie would leave her children home for extended periods of time and go to St. George to spend time with her friend Jody Hildebrandt. Records show police went back to the Springville home four more times after that to assist DCFS. But nothing was done. And when school members tried to speak to them, nothing was done. Nothing at all. So the children continued to starve and be bound.

That's not all. Take a listen to our friends at KSL. This is Shelby Lofton. Neighbors told me everyone noticed the Frankie's windows being covered in paper earlier this year. We drove by the Frankie's house today. No one looked like they were home, but the front door, which looks like it's cracked, is covered in several strips of black tape. Neighbors told us Kevin Frankie, Ruby's husband, moved out of the family home about one year ago. Kevin Frankie is now back at that address. So Brad Watts, licensed professional counselor, certified sex offender treatment provider, specializes in sibling sex abuse and I want to talk

to you about Ruby Franke's claims it's all our children's fault that they're abusing each other. He's the author of Sibling Sex Abuse, America's Silent Epidemic. And you can find him at bradwattslpc.com. Brad, what do you make of the fact that police didn't help, defects didn't help, the school detective and counselors, they didn't help. Oh, they were, and the neighbors, they all noticed, they all knew something was wrong, but they did nothing. Nancy, this is just mind-blowing. I mean, one of the first things that popped out to me is the fact that they didn't do their due diligence on anything. It's a complete failure. And I would think just anybody kind of around or familiar, you make those calls and then you go in and investigate in the home. And the fact that

all these different opportunities that they drop the ball on this is just really horrific. And, you know, we see the results with the kids. I can't help but wonder with all these different calls, all these different people, you know, seeing red flags from the family, why in the world this wasn't investigated. So I'd really be interested to hear what their excuses for this is. Denying the children food and care, leaving them alone for days.

If this woman wasn't famous, you don't think she would have been arrested by now? All you have to do is listen to her on her eight passengers are now the new connections with her hench person, Jodi Hildebrandt. Take a listen to Ruby Frankie on eight passengers.

I just got a text message from Eve's teacher and she said that Eve did not pack a lunch today. And can I bring a lunch over to the school? This happens quite often when you're having, raising children because I know that her teacher is uncomfortable with her being hungry and not having a lunch and it would ease her discomfort if I came to the school with a lunch. But I responded and just said, Eve is responsible for making her lunches in the morning and she actually told me she did pack a lunch.

So the natural outcome is she's just going to need to be hungry and hopefully nobody gives her food and nobody steps in and gives her a lunch. And my kids are literally starving. I hesitate to say this because it's going to sound like I'm like a mean barbarian but I told the kids I said I'm not even going to let you eat breakfast until you get your chores done. You're the mother and she is the child. This is not a relationship where you trust her. That's not your job as a mother. In fact, your job as a mother is to constantly be scrutinizing her,

to constantly be judging her choices against principles. That's Ruby Franke speaking on a podcast late last year for Connections, a life coaching platform founded by her business partner, Jodi Hildebrandt. They're at the end, you're hearing our friends at KUTV and the little girl that wasn't having was six years old. Okay. I was also struck when she refused to let some of the children have Santa on Christmas morning. Take a listen to our cut 28. So we sat down with them and we let them know how deeply sorrowful we've been because of the choices that they've been making and how it's affected their teachers at school. It's affected their peers. It's affected our home, the siblings.

And we just laid it out very clear. And we told them that this year they are not going to be visited by Santa. We let them know that Christmas morning, their four older siblings will be getting Christmas presents to open and that they will have the gift of love from their dad and I. Yeah, I wonder why he left. But that said, he didn't just leave her. He left his children to starve in a hellhole. Ruby Frank actually appears in court and astonishingly blames her own children for their suffering, even claiming that her children watched porn at age three and that one child molested many other children. Sex molested them. Listen to our friends at Crime Online.

Shocking stories continue to follow Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrandt as family members speak out and share their personal frustrations with the women. But the most shocking thing so far has to be from Ruby Frankie herself. The Daily Mail reports that in court, Ruby Frankie sobbed as she appeared for a shelter hearing for her four minor children to determine custody. Speaking between sobs, the mother of six claims that one of her minor children sexually abused their sibling and molested several other family members and children in the neighborhood for years. I find that really difficult to believe. And I'm going to go to our expert, Brad Watts, who has written Sibling Sex Abuse America Silent Epidemic. If this had been going on for years, it's very hard for me to believe that a neighbor had not reported it. I would be

lying on the police HQ steps, screaming for justice if a neighbor attacked one of my children, a neighbor child? Yeah, I don't believe this for one minute, especially given the other circumstances that the children are starved, bound with duct tape and have open sores. Yeah, Nancy, absolutely. There's all kinds of red flags that just incongruent with everything in the home. Yeah, it doesn't appear in any way that that would happen, in my opinion, just because to one of the red flags to me is a three year old looking at porn. So so she's

presenting it as her three year old child is seeking out porn. Well, a three year old not able to seek out porn on their own. They would come across it or it'd be shown to them. And then just with the strict, abusive nature in her home, how is that happening? And how is, I agree with you, how is a neighbor, if he's doing it to all these family members, all these different neighborhood kids,

in my experience, it gets reported, it's talked about, it's brought up. And then she's just keeping that, you know, to herself and all that. I don't buy it. I just don't buy it at all. It doesn't make any sense to me. Heidi Nestle is joining us on the Utah Crime Victims Legal Clinic. And all the years I have prosecuted and investigated child molestation, I've never in my life heard of a three-year-old going to the TV and finding porn and watching it. That is a lie, Heidi. You're absolutely correct.

I mean, as your panelists just said, it either didn't happen or the child was presented with it or exposed to it by someone who is older and can make those kind of searches. This just doesn't make sense. I don't, the legal argument to say, you know, I'm absolved from responsibility or my responsibility is mitigated because there was a sex abuse going into the home, That doesn't make sense legally to make that argument because as the parent, you have a legal and moral responsibility to protect your children. And in Utah, we have mandatory report laws. So if this had been going on, the parent is responsible at some level. And so it doesn't make sense legally for her to be making this argument. If anything, it aggravates the situation as opposed to mitigating her liability.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want you to hear what happened when a school resource officer attempted to speak to the children. Take a listen to our cut 76. A school resource officer attempting twice to talk to the children, once unsuccessfully at school and again later at home. When he asked to talk to them, to the mom and the children, they all went in the house, locked the doors and would not respond to any of our attempts for contact. It's very concerning when we hear that there were this many people that sounded the alarm that there might have been something happening at this home. So you were hearing from our friends at GMA. So I'm not sure how this goes down. The school resource officer says he tried to speak to them, but Ruby, Frankie and her children all went in the home and just locked the door that the children went silent when he tried to

speak to them at school. So what, they just drop it? Just, okay, yeah, I can't talk to them. Never mind. That's over. Case closed. Also, the windows are covered with paper. No one can get to them. They're locked in the home and no parent is home.

But I find it really hard to believe. I'm going to throw this to you, Jason Jensen, that the school resource officer child does have that ability to refuse to speak to the officer about something at home. Oftentimes it's because the child is instructed not to engage with any form of police officer or something like that while at school. So you would think that that would pose a red flag for the investigator, But I've read many reports where that's actually occurred here. But they just let it go. Guys, I want you to hear more of this mommy vlogger with millions of people taking her advice. Ruby Frankie, take a listen to Our Cut 95.

Go win. We are going to a movie, so go get on your shoes. What is it? Does it even matter? If someone asked me if I wanted to go to a movie, I wouldn't ask what is it. Run and get your shoes or you're going to not go. Hurry. Everyone run.

Hey, this is Ruby. I was wondering, is Brooke available to babysit? Sorry. Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing. What a good idea for spring break. Mom, I'm really sorry. I am not taking Eve unless you come and give me a huge apology. It just hurts me to hear the little baby. I mean, you can tell she's, what would you say, Jackie, four or five, maybe?

Yes, I have. If that crying, saying, Mommy, I'm sorry. And now listen to this, 96. You come give me a hug, and you come say you're sorry. No, again, where I can pay attention. It was not very thankful of you. I was excited and I told you to go get on your shoes and your jacket to see a movie and you should say okay and be grateful instead of well what movie well I don't know let me think about it. That's not very, and I'm not going to take a girl who's not grateful.

Can you show some more gratitude? Okay, give me a big hug. I mean, is that common to force your victim to apologize to you? Just trying to figure that out, Brad Watts. No, I mean, it's so hard to listen to Nancy. I mean, just, you know, these children and the way she treats them. And, you know, I keep thinking that with my therapist eyes, just this family and these kids and how much they need to be in therapy and all

that they're, they're going to have to work through. And again, kind of going back to your point, you know, where's dad, you know, fighting for these kids. I think he needs to be behind bars, too. He's responsible. You can't just drive off and leave your children with a demon from hell and then act like you had no responsibility at all. So when she is brought into court, and by the way, isn't it true, back to Emily Ashcraft, KSL, is it her or Hildebrandt that claimed that they have an ailment and they're on the sick unit where they get better treatment? I think they've both had some medical issues since they've been in jail.

So I think both of them. But most recently, Hildebrandt apparently had some significant medical issues that that was filed in court documents. What issue? It was vague as to what those were. I bet it was. Both of them amazingly get medical issues when they go behind bars and they end up in a much better position in the sick bay. Guys, I want you to hear more of what Ruby Frank did as if she hasn't victimized her children enough. Take a listen to our Cut 81, our friends at Crime Online.

After years of watching Ruby Frankie promote herself as an expert at parenting, family members now feel it's time to speak out and set the record straight. To that end, Frankie's sister-in-law, Cynthia, told the Daily Mail, quote, I don't think she should get out on bail. I do believe the allegations against her. After all of this, she should be put away forever if convicted. Cynthia is the wife of Frankie's older brother, Alan, and she said she had no idea what was going on behind closed doors. She said, quote, I don't know what to believe from her. I think she's lying. She's putting the blame on her two kids to validate what she did to her children. At this point, I think she'll say anything to save herself. To Shelby Asher joining us, a forensic nurse examiner, how often is it

that you see children victimized while everybody stands by and twiddles their thumbs? Yeah, so, you know, not common. Obviously, with children, it does take years and years for them to come forward in regards to sexual assault. You know, that's because mostly of fear. They are taught to believe that nobody's going to believe them. Nobody's going to listen. Nobody cares. You know, as far as sibling sexual assault, it is one of the least reported. So it is hard to establish and understand the prevalence. But if that were happening, you know, the question that comes into play and that comes to mind is, you know, if this is happening, where are they learning this behavior from?

You know, are they repeating behavior that they've experienced? You know, if this is happening, where are they learning this behavior from? You know, are they repeating behavior that they've experienced? You know, often children do reenact what they've experienced. I'm very curious. Heidi Nestle is joining us, executive director, Utah Crime Victims Legal Clinic. And you can find her at Utah Victims Clinic. clinic. Heidi, I think it would be a simple matter of getting the other children to testify, especially the older daughter who was so worried about her siblings. She called police to go check on them. There's a reason for that. You're right. And you can be assured that the children are going to be interviewed. That's standard practice in criminal investigations. And in Utah, we use a Children's Justice Center system where I'm confident that each of the children will be interviewed by a

forensic interviewer. And so hopefully we'll get now they'll have the opportunity to talk about what's happened to them, how they've been raised and the different potentially abusive scenarios that they've had to endure. So this investigation is going to take a while, but assuredly these children will be interviewed and have the opportunity to speak about what's happened to them. If you know or think you know anything about the mistreatment of the children of Ruby Frankie and the husband, Kevin Frankie, or any knowledge regarding Jody Hildebrandt, please call better late than never. Tip line 251-847-2202. Repeat 251-847-2202. We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend. This is an I Heart Podcast.