Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Zone 7: The Serial Killer’s Apprentice - Revisiting Wayne Henley Jr. Case and Dean Corll

Episode Date: September 28, 2025

CSI Sheryl McCollum welcomes back Dr. Katherine Ramsland and Tracy Ullman to discuss the release of their documentary The Serial Killer’s Apprentice. This two-hour film revisits the chilling case of Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. and Dean Corll, blending archival footage, exclusive interviews, and rare audio recordings. Dr. Ramsland and Ullman share behind-the-scenes insights on producing the documentary. They reveal what has surfaced since the book’s release, and why this case, rooted in grooming, complicity, and trafficking, continues to offer powerful lessons today.   Resources: Zone 7 Part I The Serial Killer's Apprentice | The Story of Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. Zone 7 Part II How to Prevent Young People From Falling Victim to Predatory Criminals The Serial Killer's Apprentice How to Catch a Killer The Mind of a Murderer: A Glimpse into the Darkest Corners of the Human Psyche, from a Leading Forensic Psychiatrist John Wayne Gacy: Devil in Disguise The Serial Killer’s Apprentice documentary is now streaming on HBO Max (Originally aired on Investigation Discovery (ID) on August 17, 2025)   Highlights: (0:00) Sheryl kicks off Zone 7 with Dr. Katherine Ramsland and Tracy Ullman, introducing The Serial Killer’s Apprentice documentary (2:00) How the documentary expands on the book with new interviews, archival footage, and Henley’s own voice (4:00) Condensing the sprawling Dean Corll case into a two-hour film without losing depth (8:45) “Corll picked two adolescent boys to do his dirty work for him.” – Dr. Ramsland on how predators groom children into crimes (11:00) The purpose of the documentary: helping parents, teachers, and kids recognize signs of grooming and recruitment (12:45) The Devil’s Den murders and how predators hide in plain sight (17:15) Henley’s cries for help that were ignored, and how the film reframes him as both victim and accomplice (22:15) Tracy Ullman urges viewers to move beyond the old “fixed villain” narrative, while Henley confronts the reality of being part of a trafficking network and how it reshaped his view of guilt and remorse (32:00) Henley’s evolving understanding of his role, his remorse, and why the full truth behind these crimes may still be unfolding (36:45) Sheryl closes with a quote from A Darker Shade of Magic: “Some people steal to stay alive. Some people steal to feel alive.”   Thanks for tuning in to Zone 7. If you are enjoying the podcast, please leave a rating and review. Your support helps us continue to educate, investigate, and advocate. --- Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an Emmy Award-winning CSI, a writer for CrimeOnline, forensic and crime scene expert for Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, and co-author of the textbook Cold Case: Pathways to Justice. She is the founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, a national collaboration that advances techniques for solving cold cases and assists families and law enforcement with unsolved homicides, missing persons, and kidnappings. Dr. Katherine Ramsland is a professor of forensic psychology at DeSales University and the author of numerous books and articles. Her works include How to Catch a Killer, The Mind of a Murderer, and The Serial Killer’s Apprentice. She is also a frequent contributor to crime documentaries and television shows, where she shares her expertise on serial killers, criminal behavior, and the psychology of predators. Tracy Ullman is a writer, producer, and investigative journalist who specializes in true crime storytelling and victim advocacy. She co-authored The Serial Killer’s Apprentice with Dr. Katherine Ramsland and has conducted research into John Wayne Gacy and sex trafficking networks. She also served as an executive producer on The Serial Killer’s Apprentice documentary, helping bring new perspective to the story of Elmer Wayne Henley Jr. And Dean Corll.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Y'all, they are back, and we are so fortunate, renowned criminologist, Dr. Catherine Ranslin, and executive producer, Tracy Olin, are here tonight, and they've got big news that I am so excited. to share with all of y'all. Dr. Ramslett, welcome, welcome, and will you tell us what's happening? Well, it's great to be back here. The last time we were here, we had Wayne Henley with us as well. We did a couple with him. And that was based on a book that we had written about his case. And now we have the documentary version of it, a two-hour documentary on the ID Network on August 6th. 17th, Sunday night. So 9 to 11 Eastern Time, and we're hoping that people will really respond

to that. There's more in it than was in the book because there are people interviewed for the documentary that were not part of the book. So there is yet more really to discover for anyone who has read it and those who haven't. It's quite a case. And it's disturbing. shocking, but so relevant for today. When I first learned about it, I got real excited. I figured there would be some people that weren't in the book. But anytime you can watch the person talk, and that includes you, doctor, you know, you get to me, I get so much more from it.

Like I can, you know, hear the way you, you know, present it and, you know, that kind of thing. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I do. And, you know, obviously I'm interviewed on it, but also we have some excerpts from the many hours of taping that I did when I was talking to Wayne. So you have footage from the 1970s when all this happened. You have Wayne talking on tape to me. You have me talking about the case. You have other experts talking about the case.

So it really is a different experience than reading the book, though it's the same story. And Tracy, I mean, obviously, you and Dr. Ranslet are not strangers to TV. And you have even been the executive producer on a documentary. So this is familiar ground for you. Right, right. It was a pleasure to make this. And, you know, Catherine and I partnered on the book, but we also worked very much hand in hand on the documentary because she was so essential to giving context to this story.

Of course. And I, you know, the first thing I thought about was, man, that might be a little difficult to take this masterpiece that y'all have done and then put it in live form. But then I thought, that's what Dr. Ransland does all the time. That's what I do all the time. That's what you do all the time. You take a textbook and you bring it to life. And, you know, Tracy, the same for you, you take material, you take information, and you put it in film form. So I am so excited, August 17th, I cannot wait. But I have this question now, Dr. Ramsley, were there components that you found difficult to take a chapter and then flip it into like a sound bite? Was there anything that was a challenge for you? I think it was that I knew we're going to take a really

large story and condense it down to two hours. So right up the bat, that's challenging. And then, of course, you want to figure out what is really essential to get across in this story. And who else are they going to be using to piece in? So for me, it was simply telling the story as I know it, you know, and reaching back to the 1970s when the Dean Coral story happened when these murders happened. And to be able to talk about it in the clinical way that I typically have while viewers are watching these really horrendous images, because you do get footage of them digging up some of the bodies and going into Dean Coral's house and seeing what the torture implements that were in there, seeing Wayne Henley as a 17-year-old kid, skinny guy talking to, weeping on the

phone as he's talking to his mother. So I think trying to get all that into a two-hour show was challenging, but it worked well, I think. I've watched it a couple of times, and I really enjoy the sort of way it's been packaged. Well, you know, Tracy, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm Southern. So I love a good story, and it's hard for me to condense anything. I mean, and somebody says, do you want ice cream? I don't want to just say yes or no. I want to tell them all the reasons. Like, you know, when I was a child, I loved, you know what I mean? So when I think of this book, there is a global picture that even when I was reading it, I thought, man, there is so much more that they're going to be able to connect from that book.

It's not just Dean Coral. It's not. There's a lot more, if you look at crime in general, if you look at the way crime is committed. And I'm one of those people. If you take a theft or you take a murder, you can dissect both and get to the same motive. Yeah. I mean, you know, when we wrote the book. together, Catherine really took the lead. My strength was that I had known Wayne for a few years

before we connected Catherine. And then I was very much into the sex trafficking aspect of this story and uncovering that. So when we finally had to sit down with a team that included members of Dick Wolf Entertainment and ITV America, they hired in a what's called a showrunner, somebody who was going to give a look and feel to this story. His name was Alexis Roby. And then they also had a producer, Zoe Vock. And all of us did about five different jobs as we went through what we could possibly do with a small budget, a relatively small budget. And, you know, in the end, it was pretty incredible, the amount of archive that we had to show what literally happened.

And then we put in the recordings of Wayne. We had a way of scrubbing through those by having them artificially intelligent and transcribed that way. And once we were looking through those things, we were able to discern, okay, this is going to be relevant to what we're talking about here. This is how we're going to show the grooming that went on. And once that cut was put together, then we had Dr. Ramsland come back in and she was basically on a set

where we kind of showed her talking with Elma Wayne Henley but there's a little bit of fakery that goes on that way and once you have the story put together with all those different components it really brings you back into the early 1970s

in Houston and in America and it really gives the context of we were a country that was we were changed by these murders and we didn't really know why or how until you know we really you know dr ramsland and i dug into this and i think now it's much more obvious what those changes ended up being and i think that's the global picture that interests me so much because it's not just murder like serial killer absolutely but when you're talking about the grooming and the sex trafficking, those are elements that a lot of people do not realize

are so ingrained in some of these cases. And that's partly the takeaway from the book and the documentary is to recognize that this isn't something deep in the past, you know, 50 years ago. This is about kids today just as much and even more so because they're more vulnerable than they were back in the 70s. And it's not just vulnerable to predators looking for prey. These are looking for partners. They're looking to groom kids to help them. That's essentially what we're talking about is an adult, Dean Coral, picked two adolescent boys to do his dirty work for him by leveraging them and more or less trapping them by using things that matter to them until they were in too deep to get out.

And this is the thing that kids face today. There are all kinds of sophisticated predators on the Internet looking for vulnerable kids to bring into the criminal enterprise they have. And we're seeing that right now with all the Epstein stuff, that kids can be recruited to recruit other kids. And on it goes. It's pretty horrifying. and we want people to understand what are the signals and what should they be doing

when kids say they need help. And doctor, that's something you have said, and I'm quoting here, there were hard lessons to learn to help us navigate today's world. That's what you're talking about. Yes, very much. You know, there's a meme out there. Then it says something to the fact that it used to be you had to protect your child from one person.

Well, now the whole world has access to your. child. And even some of their own associates, other kids might be in on something and finding ways to, you know, to exploit their trust. So Tracy, I think the ultimate goal that y'all are trying to do with this documentary would be what? How would you condense it? I think that, you know, it is very relevant for Dr. Ramsland to mention Jeffrey Epstein in this instance because we have this staring us in the face right now is a societal issue. And the modus operandi is the same across the board. When you talk about John Wingasey, when you talk about Dean Coral, Jeffrey Epstein learned ways of operating that are directly related to these men. And when you think

about them operating, they cannot operate successfully without others empowering. them. Other people in power clearing the way so that they don't get arrested so that they do have access to other victims as well as other people that will be paying for their services. And so, you know, Dr. Ramsland and I were discussing earlier, we don't know have as much as we should about the Jeffrey Epstein case because with everything else being comparable to these other cases, is there any form of pornography that surrounds this case? Are there any murders that surround this case? These are questions that have not yet been answered. They haven't been asked, really. And so when you have a modus operandi that's copied over and over again,

what elements have people copied? And, you know, we're just trying to give an example of what's possible as part of this story. And you know, Dr. Tracy brings up a great point. The young man that just murdered the mom and dad that were walking with the two little girls in the state park, one of the first things I said is he will have pornography on all of his devices, child pornography specifically. I think the children were his target. I think those parents probably thought we're together, we're in a state park, we could not

be safer? That, yeah, and I don't want to make it seem as if every place in the world is dangerous. But, but on the other hand, predators look specifically for places that people feel safe and pose as people who seem safe. He was a teacher. He was an ordinary looking guy, aside from the strange hair, but he was an ordinary licking guy. And so they really want people. to be off guard, to not see them coming. And they play a long game quite often. They will groom a whole neighborhood, a whole town, a whole city to believe certain things about them so that they can operate under the radar.

And I think, you know, we don't know that much yet about his motivation and background. We know some things. But I think as it's going to come out, you know, you're probably right that he was certain. out there targeting possibly those kids. But yeah, he was a dangerous individual who found a seemingly safe place to operate. Tracy, when you're looking at the documentary and y'all have added people that are not in the book and the interviews, so you're going to have information that's maybe new to y'all. How did y'all craft that if it was something that y'all were not prevy to before? I think the thing we wanted to do was to get everyone back into Houston in the early 1970s.

We did not want to say, okay, we've got all of this noise going on with 50 years having passed from this case. We want to bring you back into Elmer Wayne Henley's world. And so one of his best friends at the time, Angela Michaels, she, you know, was able to talk about what a good person this was. We were able to talk about them going to concerts, what an average individual this person was. And so to think about Amoyne Henley, before all this becomes publicized, you start to see a teenager. who really would never have gone in this direction if he weren't guided there, if he weren't manipulated and threatened. We talked with one of his fellow Cub Scouts, Mark Nelson, and you just get this mundane picture of a community that comes together at the Henley household

and these Cub Scouts meet up and they're talking about all sorts of activities and the Henley parents, you know, Mary and Elmer Sr. are, you know, guiding these meetings and all the kids respect them. And there is no sign of anything untoward until you see that family start to break down. You start to see the insertion of Dean Coral and his methods of grooming. And everything takes a sharp right turn. the wrong direction. And as a teenager, Elma Wayne Henley doesn't have the ability to stop that. He's responding to all sorts of insecurities, all sorts of lack of intelligence that you might have as an adult. And for so long, we've kind of superimposed on him. Well, he should have known. Will you try being a young team and understanding all of these kind of different ways, you know, somebody like Dean Coral could manipulate you. It's very difficult even as adults to grasp. I think it's important to also point out about the documentary is that it is balanced.

We have relatives of victims talking on it. We have law enforcement discussing it. We have people who just don't think that Wayne was a good guy and we have people who do. So you're really getting a balanced picture of the response to the crimes and the fact that Wayne is in this odd position of being both a victim and a perpetrator, and it's very difficult to try to find language to talk about someone like that. Sure. And here's the deal. When he's been on Zone 7 twice, he has stated very clearly he wants to help at least one child.

that's his whole purpose for working with the two of you and now being a part of the documentary how do you think this is going to maybe affect him like I know y'all have talked to him I mean is he excited about it

yeah I think I think he feels that it was worthwhile and it was a long process and with ups and downs as documentary making can be but I think he is happy to have finally have had the opportunity to tell his story fully without being, you know, having it distorted in some manner as has happened to him before. And that this could potentially reach not just

kids who could be in trouble, but counselors and teachers and parents who deal with kids who need to understand how important it is to listen. Because the essence of his story is that he did try to tell somebody. He tried to tell several people, adults. He tried to get away several times. This is something that's not well known about him. But what happened is people thought he was crazy or drunk or on drugs or something. They just ignored his cry for help. And he wants people to understand you have to listen no matter what it sounds like. You have to at least try to help these kids. And I think he believes that this. will in fact achieve that goal.

And Tracy, you know, I have watched court go from just some people like the prosecution and the defense standing and talking to almost more theatrical. They have, you know, video now. They have all kind of charts and graphs that can move and you can show things in real time. Tracy, to me, when I think of what this. documentary could do for Wayne, especially with Catherine talking to him, is how they're going to make it look, correct? Correct.

That people are going to have the opportunity to hear him in a way that I don't think they could in the book. But this will give them an opportunity to say, wait a minute, he was a victim. Then he became a perpetrator. Now he's trying to help. So, again, for you being a documentary executive producer, that is part of the story that I would want to really bring to light. It was such a privilege to be able to match up story points with what Dr. Ramsland and Wayne Henley were discussing. But I must admit, I was in charge of scripting the second episode.

And the very exciting part of that for me was the very last act where we start to ask our participants both for and against Wayne Henley, now that you know that this had to do with sexual trafficking, where there was pornography generated of the victims, how do you feel about that? and to have one of the victims, family members, say, look, somebody had to take those photographs, somebody had to send those photographs to a publisher, somebody had to put together the magazine and then distribute it. That for me, as people are reflecting the thoughts of that insult to injury for the victims, that was a very exciting part of putting that together to really bring those voices to a symphony that describes sex trafficking and what really happened in this case. And that has never been done before. Unbelievable. And, you know, Dr. You and Tracy were so

gracious to allow me to talk to him with y'all twice. And I know how that affected me. I mean, for days and days, I just kept replaying some things that he said and knowing the background and knowing the crimes. I can't imagine for you. This is, in some way, it's a testament to your career, but it's also, again, using your genius to help other people so that lay people, teachers, parents, counselors, football coaches can get this information. That's what I'm hoping for. And I will say, I didn't actually expect it was going to move. in this direction when I I had one of the original notions about Henley being a you know a bad kid who sold his friends for money to you know this predator because that was the original

notion that was was passed around in the original true crime books about this but um I wanted to talk with him because he seemed in in one brief interview he about his artwork he seemed intelligent and self-reflective and I thought well maybe maybe I have something to learn and so I'm hoping that is the same effect on other people who've already made up their minds based on outdated information and even even incorrect information I hope that's the same experience they will have when they listen to him and they they see what this case really was about and which was not represented in in the original accounts of this of this case and it's an unbelievable window into just the most horrific types of crime that again target children and I'm going to go back

to the young man we were talking about in the state park he not only was a teacher but he got that job over and over and over in different states So they're there and they're going to, you know, go to the places where they can get to the victims of choice. And let's not forget the female teacher who was also recently caught engaging in a relationship with an underage child. It's not just guys. Oh, absolutely. Excellent point. Yes.

And that's the thing. if you're wanting to be with a child of a certain age, then you're going to be a little league football coach or you're going to teach you to the elementary school or you're going to be a mall Santa. You're going to gravitate to those jobs. Yeah, there's all kinds of ways in if you really determine. Of course.

Tracy, what do you think when the documentary is out and people are going to be able to engage and talk about, it and hopefully start asking some questions, what do you want them to be able to take away from it to use immediately? You know, there's, I actually want to kind of flip that question. If it's okay, what I don't want to you flip anything you won't. Thank you. I'm here flipping. The thing that I don't want people to take away are people who are are dead set in seeing this individual as one of the worst criminals of all time. You know, the things that he did while he was under the influence of a complete, you know,

completely manipulative, dangerous individual, the things that he did were not things that he would have done had he not met that person. And so when you think about him committing murder, we have to put that in context. And if people are constantly banging the drum of this is a more than 50-year-old narrative, the narrative has to stick. We have to see this individual as dangerous, always dangerous, and never redeemable, no matter what he says and no matter what new information we have, that's something that I will be very frustrated if people,

decide to seize on language or, you know, parts of this story without viewing the entire body of information. What I would hope people do is they say, oh, my goodness, I can't believe. And this was the same for the investigation into John Wayne Gacy, and I think it will prove out in the investigation of Jeffrey Epstein, is that what we've had here are people that are in power, who have access to these illicit activities, they exploit them, they benefit from, you know, expressing their perversions, and then they get to write the history

that we've now had for the past 50 years assigning Elma Wayne Henley Jr. All of the viciousness in these crimes. And what I want people to take away from is, no, this was a child. You know, this afternoon, Dr. Ramsland and I were saying, you know, can we accurately get the age at which Emma and Henley would have been involved in these crimes? And we went between 14 and 15 years old. And the conclusion we both came to is that's still very young. when I imagine my three children being that age, you know, these are not capable individuals.

These are still fully forming individuals. And so I just feel as though, you know, if we can look at this with a new information, then we see how many people prevented Dean Coral being discovered earlier, how many people must have known. he was creating pornography, how many people must have known that they were purchasing his pornography and that there was a ring that surrounded him that was, you know, very wealthy and very connected. So what we want to walk away from is let's take a good look at who we're dealing with. Let's understand why that individual might be making a suggestion about taking

our kids and kind of, you know, doing things with them that are, you know, it just doesn't make sense. Why don't we go ahead and question authority a little bit more? That's what I'm hoping people will walk away with, not that they will be afraid of anyone, but that they will be more informed about how to behave in these situations and not take situations in which authorities are presented to us and take them just lock, stock, and barrel, everything that they do. Oh, that must make sense. You know, I did a lot of research into the former Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert, as a result of looking into these cases. And when I think about how many victims Dennis Hasterd had, even though he continued to progress in power and status and wealth,

and you look back on him now and you think, you know, it's just horrible that we empowered him and we shouldn't be letting people get away with these things. And, you know, Doc, she mentioned Gacy and, you know, he was part of a sex ring. I thought that was going to come out at Delphi that there was a sex ring. When I first heard that one man was texting one of the victims and said, hey, meet me at the bridge on this day, this time. and there just happened to be a second individual, a child killer on that same bridge at the same date and time, I thought surely these people know each other.

And then they were found on the property of another man that had a background. And I just thought, this has got to be a ring. I don't know that it's definitely not. The problem with relying on the information we have is that there's a cognitive error we make that. All the information we have is all there is, and that's not necessarily true. There could be things we will find out later, or which will never be uncovered, but which are nevertheless true. I'm not trying to feed a conspiracy theory here, but I always am very careful about

saying that we have the final story on any case, because I've watched, just this case, for example, I've watched how it evolved as we've. come up with more and more information, there's still stuff being found that we weren't even able to add in because it's only been found recently. So I think that I wouldn't say definitively there wasn't one or that we'll never find out. I think that is a case that has some dark spaces yet still, I think. I would agree with you 100%. Because I've even said, I can't fathom The coincidence that would take. I imagine y'all get a lot of questions, but I bet one is about Wayne, did he ever have any remorse or does he have remorse now?

You know, having spoken with him on a regular basis, sometimes twice a week for the past five years, we've had many discussions about Wayne's remorse and how he wish, you know, one of the first conversations that him and I actually had. starting in March of 2020, was I said, did you realize that you were part of a sex trafficking ring? And he said, he was very intimidated by that. He said, I don't think I know what you're referring to. I said, I need you to know that a lot of your victims appeared in pornography that you had no responsibility for. I said that pornography was distributed over years and found again and again in various collections. and him hearing this was just mind-blowing to him.

He had never even considered it. He had heard of a syndicate. He had understood there might be other people in Dallas associated with Dean Coral, but he had never been able to, he just wanted to follow along with what had been told to him in court. You are responsible for these murders that you've committed, and you will forever be, you know, at the receiving end of guilt. And he just kind of bang that drum all along.

And so once we started talking about, wait, this is a reality that you are not the sole apprentice of this individual. More than likely, there were apprentices before you that no longer existed when you got there. And then to kind of bring him into police records that he had never had access to, that they knew right away that there was pornography of the victims, that they started to associate this with an individual in Dallas named John David Norman, but that this individual who was

arrested initially for having four tons of child pornography in Dallas managed to escape on bond to the suburbs of Chicago, uniting with associates of John Wayne Gasey. when you think about that whole large scenario, I think that Wayne finally got some relief in the idea that, wait, I was not old enough to consent to this. I didn't even understand maybe what was happening. And the behaviors that I experienced were merely for survival. And that was something that I think both of us had to convince him of instead of just that he was responsible for every single murder that happened. Yeah. And so when I first talked to him, one of the very first things he said to me was don't try to talk me out of being responsible for this. I thought, wow, what a way to introduce yourself. And, you know, but I knew that eventually I would be introducing him to the literature from neuro psychology and the teenage brain and, you know, things like that that would help him understand much more about how easily kids are to manipulate. And, you know, I didn't want him necessarily to take a stance of resistance, but repeatedly he has expressed remorse and he doesn't understand why people don't think he's capable of it, which was the idea. You know, back when he was trying to do some media in the 1980s and 90s, people just didn't believe that he could be genuine or

or have any real deep feeling about being remorseful. But he's horrified at what he was capable of doing under the influence of Dean Coral. And he, as he says in the documentary, I'm still living my life inside Dean Coral because I'm here because of Dean Coral. And these are not the things I would have ever wanted to do. He wanted to be a minister.

And he read the Bible every day, carried a little pocket Bible around with them. And, you know, that's somebody who's not a person who wanted to bring harm to others. And so I think that it's hard for him to understand why do people question his ability to feel the remorse that he says he has. And yet we do come across that a lot. That's powerful. And I just appreciate you both. I mean, y'all know how I feel about your work. It is invaluable, and it is something that needs to be in the hands of every teacher and counselor and parent and coach

and anybody that deals with children in any way. So I just appreciate you both. And congratulations on the documentary. That is significant, and it is well earned and deserved. Thank you. Thank you so much. We really appreciate you, Cheryl. Anytime, anytime. Y'all, I'm going to end Zone 7 the way that I always do with a quote.

Some people still to stay alive and some people still to feel alive. Simple as that. From a darker shade of magic. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone 7. This is an IHeart podcast.