Crime Weekly - Cari Farver | The Disappearance, the Texts, and the Woman Who Wouldn’t Let Go (Part 1)

Episode Date: May 15, 2026

Support John's Youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@LordanARTS On November 16, 2012, 37-year-old Cari Farver was reported missing by her mother, Nancy, after she suddenly stopped showing up for work and answering calls. No one had seen Cari since the morning of November 13, but her phone was active, sending messages and posting online, making it seem like she hadn’t disappeared at all. Still, Nancy was adamant something was wrong. The messages didn’t sound like Cari. As detectives began looking into Cari’s disappearance, they started receiving reports that she was stalking and threatening multiple people. For more than two years, the behavior continued, growing more intense and dangerous than anyone could have imagined. And by the time detectives finally uncovered what was really going on, they were left trying to untangle a case so complicated, and so bizarre, that prosecutors worried a jury wouldn’t believe it was true.  Try our coffee! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. https://www.FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF for 50% off your first box PLUS FREE daily greens per box! 2. Pocket Hose - Text CW to 64000 to get 2 FREE gifts with the purchase of ANY Pocket Hose Ballistic Hose! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On November 16th, 2012, 37-year-old Carrie Farver was reported missing by her mother, Nancy, after she suddenly stopped showing up for work and answering calls. No one had seen Carrie since the morning of November 13th, but her phone was active, sending messages and posting online, making it seem like she hadn't disappeared at all. Still, Nancy was adamant that something was wrong. The messages didn't sound like Carrie. As detectives began looking into Carrie's disappearance, they started receiving reports that she was stalking and threatening multiple people.

For more than two years, the behavior continued, growing more intense and dangerous than anyone could have imagined. And by the time detectives finally uncovered what was really going on, they were left trying to untangle a case so complicated and so bizarre that prosecutors worried a jury wouldn't believe it was true. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Lavasser. So, Derek, we wanted to talk about something, right? Yes.

Something that is impacting the true crime community, and we want to make everyone aware of it and make a call for support for one of the very important person to both Derek and I and to the true crime community. Yes. John Lorden, also known as Lorden Arts on YouTube, has been in the true crime content game even before me. And I don't know if before you, but it's been in. a long time, but more importantly, he's just an amazing human being. I've had the opportunity

to meet him a few times. I know Stephanie, you are even closer with him. You had gone through some things and he was there to support you as well. My first memory of John was actually when we first met at CrimeCon many years ago and we had our little table and we were right next to John and John was already kind of like in the game, knew the crime con experience and was super helpful and and nice and walked us through the process. And at that point, nobody knew who we were. We've talked about it before we had maybe like 10 people come up to our table. And I just remember how kind he was.

And as I have talked to people about John over these last couple days when he made a video on his channel, we strongly recommend you go check it out. We're going to have his link in the bottom of the description here. And as I was talking to people about John and wanting to do something for him, I reached out to CrimeCon and they were even saying like John's an angel. Like every year, he's so easy to work. work with. He's humble. He's always thanking us for having him here. And it's, it's terrible that he's going through this. So for anybody who doesn't know, John recently put out a video, like I just was

mentioning that we're going to, we're going to have the description box with his link and all that stuff. But he basically said that he's been editing his own videos and he's been watching himself on camera for so many years. There was like a joke inside his home where basically he's looking at his own face every single day, not only when he's monitoring his video as he's recording it, but also while editing it and he noticed something on his neck that looked different than it has in past videos. So he decided to go get checked out and he learned that he does in fact have a mask that is cancerous. So John put out a video and basically said, listen, I'm going to have to take the next month off. I'd really appreciate if people stick around and watch some of the pre-recorded content that I'm

going to be putting out because I'm going to be unable to record. And, you know, not only does he do a great job for the victims and their families and he's a good representation of what true crime is, the reality is as creators and we do this full time, if we don't work, we don't make money for our families. And with him going in for the surgery, which Stephanie, you were just texting with him, is going to be a rough road. He's not going to be able to record. And unfortunately, the bills don't stop. Now, John's not going to say that directly. He's not looking for a handout. but we want to help him out. We want to support him and we want to make sure that people go and

watch his videos. And so we'll have his YouTube channel at the bottom here. Again, he's known, but if you don't know him yet, he puts out great videos and we'd really appreciate it if our community goes over there, supports him, let him know you're thinking about him, watch the videos, comment on him, like the videos, make sure the algorithm is recognizing him so that he's able to still make some money during this time when he's going to be unable to work. But he's also a great human being. So you should be supporting him anyways. He is the best human being. John has been in the true crime game, as Derek said, for a long time. He's an OG. And this is one of the nicest people I know in the world, not just the true crime world. I met him years ago when he was doing a podcast

with Danielle Hallen. Also a super nice, amazing human being. These like just were too nice. Like you said, two angels together. They genuinely cared about the cases they were covering. John has always cared. He does very thorough work. His mind works in the way of somebody who's been looking at and examining true crime for a long time. He is a sweet, kind, good-hearted, genuinely good person. He's always been supportive of me. He's always been there for me personally and professionally. I just cannot say enough good things about him. And if anybody deserves support in a time like this, it's him. And if anybody doesn't deserve what he's going through right now, it's him.

Yeah, it could happen to any of us, too. This is such a scary time. I know I have someone close to me right now who is just diagnosed with cancer. They're going through it. Just had surgery. And this is a healthy person, a young person for kids. And it can happen to anyone in a moment's notice your life can change. And I'm thinking about him, thinking about his family.

and he's going to get through this. The prognosis is very good, according to him from his video. Go watch it yourself. But we want to make sure that he's taking care of during this time when he's unable to work. And go over there, drop him a comment, let him know that Crime Weekly sent you and that we want you to support him not only now but going forward. And we're thinking about you, John. You're going to be coming through this just fine.

Unfortunately, he won't be at CrimeCon this year. And he's a staple there. So we have some more ideas planned for how we're going to help John talking with CrimeCon. but for right now, instantly what you can do to help him is go over there, support his channel, show him some love. We would greatly appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you so much, guys.

We really appreciate it. All right. So let's get into the case. Carrie Leah Farver was born on November 30th, 1974 in Des Moines, Iowa to her parents, Denny, an insurance actuary, and Nancy, a secretary. She was named by her father as her mother had named her older brother Adam two and a half years earlier. Denny chose the name Carrie after singer Carrie McDowell, a 10-year-old performer who had just appeared on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show singing somewhere over the rainbow. Now, Denny and Nancy loved

their children endlessly, but by the time Carrie was 18 months old and Adam was four, they realized neither of them was happy in their marriage, and they made the decision to separate while remaining friends. Nancy moved with the kids to Macedonia, a small town in southwest Iowa, with fewer than 300 residents, where her family had been for generations. Even though they no longer lived together, Denny remained very involved, and he and Nancy worked together to make sure their kids felt supported and spent time with both of them. Five years after the separation, Nancy married her first love, a man named Mark, and Carrie served as the flower girl in the wedding. Mark stepped easily into the role of a second father and became an important part of her life. Growing up in Macedonia

through the 70s and 80s, Carrie was active in singing and community theater alongside her family, and in school she was part of the gifted program. From a young age, people described her as an old soul, and she had a way of drawing people in. She was known for being tender-hearted, but also protective, and if she saw someone being bullied, she would step in and stand up for them. She didn't speak badly about others, and she approached people without judgment, making it easy for her to connect with just about anyone. She was also deeply caring, and if someone around her was struggling, wanted to help however she could. In 1993, Carrie graduated from Carson, Macedonia High School, and she went on to attend the University of Kansas for a few years before going to work as a secretary.

In 1997, she started dating someone she had met at college, but that relationship didn't last long. As they were breaking up, Carrie learned she was pregnant. Now, she and this boyfriend, they tried to stay together, but it didn't work. They ultimately went their separate ways before the baby was born, leaving Carrie preparing to become a single mother. Nancy and her husband Mark made it clear that Carrie and the baby could live with them. They would help however they could. So they were very supportive of her pregnancy. And I think that's important to note because at this point, Carrie's very young, right?

She's just started college, basically. She's in college. And not only is she about to become a mother, but she's going to become a single mother. And a lot of parents could kind of maybe find out. more on the bad decisions you made or the things that you had done that didn't work out the way you had planned. But it seems as if Carrie's parents, her mother and her stepfather, we're like, hey, you know, stuff happens. Don't worry about it. We're going to, you know, welcome a new person to our family.

You can live with us. We'll help you in any way that we can. We'll make sure you can still, you know, be able to achieve your things and go to college and do all those things that you wanted to do and plan to do. so you can get your life started correctly, and we will, you know, basically be a support system for you and help you with the baby since the father isn't going to be around. As you should, right? I mean, we hear these cases where parents will kind of like disown their child after something like this.

I wouldn't even call it a mistake. But at minimum, if something like this happened with Tenley or Peyton, regardless of how I felt personally, her child is, you know, not to blame for any of this. And they're still your flesh and blood. and they shouldn't have to suffer because of your opinions on what their mom did. So, yeah, I mean, this is the right call. It should be common sense. It should be what you do.

Well, Nancy also suggested that Carrie, who was really good with computers, take a six-month course so she could build a career in that field. And this was right around the time, too, that computers were a new and emerging thing and careers and computers were taking off. So that's actually good advice. And this course was expensive. But Nancy's parents, so Carrie's grandparents, Max and Louis, and they stepped in and they paid for it.

So overall, it looks like Carrie has a great family. Yeah, they're supportive. That's for sure. Supportive. They put their money where their mouth is, basically. They're not just a family system that's like, hey, we support you, but then when you need them and it's like nowhere to be found, they actually pour in words and actions. So Carrie enrolled in this course and a little more than halfway through it, she gave birth

to her son, Max, who was named after her grandfather, and also just a great name in general. that's a timeless name, Max. I love it. So after Max's birth, they moved in with Nancy and Mark. And Carrie took to motherhood immediately. Max became the center of her world. And while she was raising him on her own without active involvement from his father, she had this strong support system with her mom, her stepdad, her dad, and her grandparents, all helping raise Max with Carrie, which is amazing. So 10 weeks after having Max, Carrie completed the course, and then she actually got a job working with computers, and this gave her a strong start in a new career. But things weren't easy, which is understandable, and Carrie's life wasn't always stable. So over the next decade,

she would get married and get divorced twice, and she changed jobs multiple times. Now eventually, Carrie was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and she began taking prescription medication. There were times when she stopped taking it, because she said it made her feel numb. But over time, things began to level out, and her life became more stable. She and Max eventually moved into a historic home in Macedonia that had belonged to her grandparents. And Carrie loved it. She loved the interior decorating. She did all she could to make it her own.

She made the home warm and welcoming, filling it with a mix of antiques that had been in the family for generations and newer furniture that she had picked out. The home meant everything to her, and being so close to her mom and stepdad meant they could continue playing an active role in her and Max's lives. By the spring of 2012, Max was 14 years old, and things were going well. In May, Carrie started what she considered her dream job as a computer programmer for West Corporation. Their offices were about 45 minutes away in Omaha. Now, even though the commute was kind of long, Carrie enjoyed the work, and no matter how busy she was, her son, Max, remained her priority. She showed up for everything for him, whether it was football games, track meets, basketball, baseball, you name it. She was always there, always supporting him the way that her parents and her family had supported her.

But while 2012 brought that dream job, it also brought heartbreak. Carrie's father, Denny, was battling stomach cancer, and he was actually put into hospice. And Carrie and Max made sure to spend as much time with him as they could. So I'm pretty sure that one, you have cancer and you're put into hospice, it's kind of an indication that this is terminal, right? I'm not off about that. Like if you're not in the hospital anymore and you're not receiving like direct medical treatment all the time, once you go into hospice, it's kind of the doctor's saying and you acknowledging there's nothing I can do here medically. Like I'm just, I'm kind of, I'm losing this battle with cancer. Yeah.

My understanding of hospice is at that point, the aggressive treatment that had been taking place is it subsides and it's more about comfort and being around the people you love. Yeah, so that's why I think, you know, Carrie and Max, they're trying to get over there as much as possible, spend as much time with Denny as they could because his life was coming to an end. Now, at that point, Carrie's focus was on family and work, and she wasn't even thinking about dating. But that changed in the fall of 2012 when she took her black Ford Explorer to Hyatt Tire in Omaha. And that's where she met Dave Krupa, the mechanic there. she later told her friend Amber that there was an instant attraction with Dave. And while she thought he felt it too, he did not ask her out. So after she left, she looked him up and saw he was on plenty of fish.

So for those who don't know, plenty of fish is a dating app. I don't know if it's still around. I don't even remember that being a thing. You know, the only reason I know what it is is because I worked at Verizon around this time. And so obviously people were just handing over their cell phones to me. And not that I was going through them. I wasn't going through them. Definitely were.

I would. You can't. Okay. By the way, you can't. But I kept seeing around a certain time, I kept seeing this app, plenty of fish, plenty of fish. And eventually I was like, I thought it was a game or something, you know. And I was like, what is this plenty of fish? And one girl was like, oh, it's a dating app.

So this is like before Tinder? Yeah, I think it was. Like it was a precursor to Tinder. Okay. Yeah. Plenty of fish. But it was kind of like around the E-Harmony time where do you remember like E-Harmony? And then there was another one, Match.com.

Yep. And those were like the big ways that you would find like online dating. But a lot of the times you would like meet people who weren't necessarily in your area. And then plenty of fish came out. And that was like, hey, you can narrow it down to a specific geographical location. Right. And then kind of plenty of fish became the hookup app. Whereas Match.com and E-Harmony were like, oh, if you want a relationship.

You're on Match.com and E-Harmony, and if you want to just, like, hook up with someone close by to you. Plenty of fish is there. Hook up, plenty of fish. Do you think that's what it means? I don't know. It just sits where my head went. Hook, hook up, hook a fish. What?

Maybe, yeah. And for the record. Maybe plenty of fish is like there's plenty of fish in the sea. Like you have one tonight. You got another one tomorrow. Yeah. Well, plenty of fish is still around. For anybody who wants to know, I just looked it up.

It's still a thing. Plenty of fish still existing. I don't know. I'm not going to sign up, but I can see the website. So it's still around for anybody. All right. Well, is there like a fish? Yeah, two fish.

Yeah, okay. Right on the front page. Two fish kind of flirting with each other. Two fish. How cute. How cute. I mean, if it's called plenty of fish, they should probably have a whole bunch of fish in the logo. But so Carrie looks on plenty of fish and she sees that this cute mechanic from

high attire, Dave Krupa, he's on the app, right? So she then created an account hoping to connect with him there. And a few weeks later, Dave came across her profile and messaged her, but still didn't ask her out. So about two weeks after that, Carrie went back to Hyatt Tyre. This time, the connection was evident. And they both knew the other was single. So Dave finally asked her out. And Carrie, of course, said, yes, this is what she's been waiting for.

This is what she's been setting up for two weeks. They exchanged phone numbers and they made plans to go on a date at Apple. bees three days later on October 29th. Now, Dave Krupa was born in October of 1976 in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. He was the first of three boys born to Tom and Trish, and he grew up in what he described as a picture-perfect household with supportive and loving parents. After high school, Dave moved to Denver, Colorado, and joined the National Guard, but he left after two years. Then he attended college and earned an associate's degree in automotive engineering. He eventually moved back to Sioux Falls, where he built a career as a mechanic.

And it was around that time that he met Amy Flora. The two of them started dating. They built a life together. They went on to welcome two children into the world. By the fall of 2011, so the year before, Dave meets Carrie, Amy and Dave had been together for over 10 years, and Amy wanted to move back to her home of Council Bluffs, Iowa, which is right next to Omaha, Nebraska.

So their family made the move, and Dave took a job at Hyatt Tire in Omaha, but things between Dave and Amy were not going well. Dave hadn't wanted to get married while Amy did. And this caused tension and eventually they decided to break up. And I think that this is pretty common, like especially if you meet someone young and then, oh, one thing leads to another, you know, you're pregnant. I feel like what Dave experienced and what Carrie experience is kind of the two ways that these things go,

especially back then in like the 80s and the 90s. If you're together, it doesn't matter if you're together two weeks, two months, two years. Even if you're young and you got pregnant, it was like, okay, we're going to get married. And so a lot of time you'll see that these people are ending up married, but they don't, you know, they're not compatible. They don't have the same. It's more because it's like the quote unquote right thing to do. Right thing to do. Which is obviously the wrong thing to do.

Don't marry someone just because you feel obligated. Yeah. Especially if you don't. even really know them, you know, like, yeah, stay with them and see where things go. Yeah, give a shot. It ends up being this thing where two people are together when they don't have the same path in life. They don't have the same goals.

They don't have the same compatibility as in what they want or who they are. And then this is exactly what ends up happening. And it becomes a stay together for the kids thing. And if you've talked to any kid who's been in a stay together for the kids kind of family, it's not, it's not the best case scenario. It's not as good as you think it is. And then like the parents suffer and you think as a parent you're doing it for the well-being of your child, but your child tells you years later when they're adult, they're like, that sucked. You shouldn't have done that, you know?

So this obviously was, you know, something that would eventually come between Dave and Amy, the fact that Dave was kind of an unwilling participant in the marriage. And Amy, I'm sure, was able to pick up on that pretty clearly and strongly. And so things were rough between Dave and Amy at first, but over time, they did become more amicable. They kind of just started getting along and, you know, they got used to the fact that they were not together anymore. But after the breakup, Dave moved into an apartment in nearby Omaha so he could be closer to work. And by June of 2012, he was feeling lonely. He had regular visits with his kids, but outside of that, he was basically on his own in a new city where he didn't really know anyone. And within weeks, he realized he wanted to start casually dating again.

So he joined plenty of fish. See, casually dating. Casually. Plenty of fish. A.g.a. hooking up. Yeah, let me get a bunch of fish and see which one tastes the best, I guess. Which one's going to bite? Which one's going to bite?

Which one's going to get on the hook? What's going to get on the hook? And like I said, casual. Dave was not looking for anything serious. He just wanted someone to have fun with. And he, you know, I will say to as a testament to his character in that, in that scenario, he was making that clear to every woman he would eventually speak to. According to Dave, he wasn't love bombing anyone or promising all these. Yeah, he was just like, listen, I don't want to talk about the future.

I don't want to talk about marriage. I have kids. Want to hang out. Want to have someone fun to hang with. More than likely want to hook up, have sex. I want a friend who I can sleep with. If he's making that clear up front, nothing wrong with that. I agree.

I agree. I mean, I'm not, it's not like my cup of tea for. Most people might say, no, I'm out, but at least he's being transparent. But you know, there's always the, there's always the people, whether it's men or women, when you're dating someone and they're like, oh, I'm not looking for anything serious. They're thinking their head, I can change him. He's not looking for anything serious until he sees how amazing I am and I make him fall in love with me, right? Yeah, they like the challenge. Yeah, they like the challenge. And it doesn't work out. They're pissed.

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So while Dave wasn't looking for anything serious, the first woman he met on plenty of fish would become a major part of his life for many years, whether he liked it or not. And I would say that maybe this person was one of those persons who liked a challenge and then got pissed when it didn't work out. So her name was Shana Elizabeth Goiler. She went by Liz. So when Dave saw her profile, he thought she was attractive.

So he asked her out on a date. said yes, and they met it at Perkins in Omaha. Do you remember Perkins? I used to work at one. Best pancakes. So Dave was nervous because he hadn't dated since he was 22, but things went well. They quickly realized they had some things in common, including that they both had kids who were around the same ages, and Dave made it clear that he wasn't looking for anything serious, and Liz said she understood. She told him she was busy with her own life, her two kids, her four pets, her cleaning business. She had way too much going on to add more commitments, and Dave, of course, he liked that answer.

And they went on a handful of similar low-key dates. Nothing really happened until the fourth or fifth date when Dave kissed her. And they went back to his place. And one thing led to another. And they hooked up. They had sex. So Dave later told author Leslie Rule for her book, A Tangled Web, that this whole experience had helped him get his confidence back. Which I'm sure that Liz wouldn't have liked to have been described.

as that, right? Stepping stone. Yeah. He's like, you're not, I don't want anything serious with you. I just want you to help me get my confidence back so I can find something that I actually want to be serious about. It's like, wow, what am I supposed to say to that? Listen, Liz, you're not wife material, but you did help me get my confidence back.

So thank you. Thank you. High five. Yeah. But it was clear that Liz really liked David. And he liked that she was sexually adventurous. And those were all appealing things. to a man trying to date again for the first time in over a decade.

Somebody who was kind of down for anything, fun to hang out with, and also made him feel good about himself, right? He needed that. He needed to see himself as a man that could be desirable to women again. But beyond that, Dave didn't really think there was much of a deeper connection. He felt like he couldn't have a real conversation with Liz, and he didn't see anything more long-term or more committed developing. And to make matters worse, after a few weeks,

Liz started to become really clingy. You know, she's busy with her dogs, aren't cleaning business, and her kids. She doesn't have time for more commitments, but, you know, she fell for Dave, clearly, and she wanted all of his time. And she constantly wanted to know where he was, which didn't sit well with him,

especially since he had made it clear from the beginning that he didn't want anything serious and that he planned to date other people, and she had made it clear that she was totally fine with that, and that she wasn't, you know, that kind of person because she was so busy with her own stuff. So all of a sudden, like, hey, I was up front and honest with you.

You clearly didn't believe me. It was once again something you saw as a challenge. And now, and I get that. Like, it makes her feel bad about herself, you know, because maybe she liked Dave more than she expected to. And so mutually she thought, if I'm feeling that, he's got to be feeling that. So to know that he's not feeling that,

while Dave's confidence is building, Liz is crashing, right? And yeah, that can cause some emotional rift. which is why I don't think you should casually date people or have sex with them because there's always going to be tricky emotions that get involved. Yeah, I mean, there's always a possibility. This isn't really, this isn't really valuable to what we're talking about here tonight. It's valuable to life. Yeah, I think it is. I mean, if someone prefaces a dating relationship by saying I'm not looking for anything serious, there is a small chance that they could change their mind, right?

if, you know, things start to go in that direction. But it's not likely. And so I would say if you're looking for something more serious, there are plenty of fish in the sea. And there are people out there who are going into it with a mindset of this could be something serious. So I would tend to start that direction because more than likely if you go the other way, you're going to be disappointed. Yeah. And I think a lot of men in my experience, and I've talked to, you know, friends who are girls and things, a lot of men use. that as kind of like, well, I told you I wasn't looking for anything serious, you know,

but then they're also calling you all the time or messaging you or when you're together. Saying one thing, action showing another. Yeah. That's fair. Yeah. When you're together, they seem like they're really into you. And so in your head, you're thinking, like, I'm falling and I feel like more serious about this.

So maybe he's feeling that way too because his actions are not matching his words. And I do think like once again, like Derek said, it is actually relevant to this. case, as we'll come to find. Oh, you think it is? Okay. Yeah. How you handle a dating relationship, we'll see. How Dave and Liz, how their relationship started and what it became. So what I'm saying is I don't think it's enough for a man or a woman to say at the beginning of a relationship, oh, I don't want anything serious, but then to continue on in the relationship long term, like if you're telling someone you don't want anything serious, then they shouldn't really be around for a long time.

You know what I mean? Okay. I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm with you there where, I don't know, I'll be interested, predominantly our audience is women. So I'm interested to hear the feedback there. I think it's just some mixed message. I do think you're right where if you're like, I don't want anything serious, but you're getting together,

even if it's for sex three or four times a week, that's not casual. That's consistent. I mean, even you're watching movies together, you're sharing stuff about your lives, stuff like that. You're not just walking in and having sex. There's conversations before, during and after.

Yeah, you start to become, you know, you know each other. And you start to become almost each other's support system in a way as friends would be. But you're also having sex, which confuses that friend relationship. And I just think that, you know, emotions do get involved and it gets complicated. And so a lot of times men get angry and they're like, well, I told her, I didn't want anything serious. But then you kept having sex with her for months. You know, they call it a situation ship now, right? It's a situation ship.

I'm going to get hate for this, but I could see the other side of that where it's like you're not going on dates. You're just hooking up. Even if you're hooking up consistently, I'm not looking for anything serious, aka I'm just looking to have sex. Yeah, well, you're your friends, right? So let's say you go on, you grab coffee together, you're getting dinner together, you see a movie together. Now, this is a relationship. You're just not giving me the commitment exclusively of a relationship. What's going to end up happening is the person on the other end of that is going to end up feeling used, right?

Right? For sex, for companionship. But if you said it initially, is it their fault or yours? Like, if you started saying, I don't want anything serious. I mean, I feel like at some point, Liz should have had a conversation with him instead of getting clingy. Or when she starts to feel like she is getting clinging, she needs to have a conversation and be like, hey, I'm... Crush for this one. Yeah, I'm more invested in this than we had initially discussed. And, like, I want to see if you're on the same page.

And if you're not, I'm going to have to end this so I don't get him. Because I'm getting into a place where I'm going to start. start caring about you and then I'm going to get hurt. But that takes a lot of like emotional regulation and also self-awareness and communication, which a lot of people don't have and they don't want to be the person to like say that because then they feel like I'm like needy and I'm going to be rejected. Nobody wants to be rejected. So it's uncomfortable.

I'm interested to see how this all plays into this because I don't think at this point Dave did anything critically wrong, but we'll see what happens. No, I don't think he did anything critically wrong, but I think that both men and women have to realize that just saying at the beginning, I don't want anything serious. Right. I agree with that. Isn't enough. You have to reinforce it somehow. If you're saying, I don't want something serious, but yet you're doing all the things that would indicate it's serious. And it's going on for weeks and months. Action speak louder than words. I'm with you.

All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Do you ever open up your refrigerator and see all the healthy food you bought with good intentions and immediately, close the door again. Totally. I look in the fridge. I just went to my local market, Dave's market. Shout out to Dave's. And then all of a sudden, now it feels like a second job where I'm done for the day, but now it's just getting started. That's when I realized for me, eating healthy isn't a willpower problem. It's a capacity issue. It's a setup problem. And that's why we love factor. Everything's already done for you. These are fully prepared meals designed by dietitians and crafted by chefs delivered straight to your door.

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He continued seeing her. But he kept telling her they would never be together and that this was casual. So he is reinforcing this with his words, but he's still having sex with her, which is going to cause Liz to feel like she's being used. So at the same time, he went back on plenty of fish and he started meeting other women going on dates regularly. And he did not hide this from Liz. Once again, I will give him credit for that. If she asked what he was doing and he had a date, he told her. But every time he had plans with another woman, what would happen? Liz would show up at his apartment beforehand and want to have sex with him. So she's trying to stake her claim.

Yeah. Right? She's trying to, you know, make sure he goes on this date thinking about the mind-blowing time he just had with sexually adventurous Liz. And that she's like distracting his brain from these other women or like, I'll show you what these other women have to measure up to. And this I will say not self-aware. Yeah, or trying to lower his libido. His libido, right. All of the things.

Probably all of the things, right? There's definitely some psychological warfare going on there. Yeah. Where it's like, I'm going to put you in a position where you just want to go to sleep. Yeah. This also comes from a place I think of like knowing your worth. I would agree with that. Like if I'm with someone and I like them and they've made it clear that they don't want to be exclusive.

And that's done with you. Yeah, that doesn't feel good with me. I'm just going to, I'm going to cut out, right? I'm going to cut my losses. I agree. As a guy with two daughters, if a guy's not reciprocating feelings and he's telling you directly, I don't want anything to do with you long term, then don't give him the other aspect of it, you know, the sexual side of things.

He loses that as well. Yeah, because now who do you have to be mad at? Yeah. And I will say, like, listen, Liz is doing all of the things, but she's got cancer. kids and she's got a business and she got dogs. Like, this feels exhausting. This feels exhausting to be doing for a man that has let you know you're not the one. Like, he's just not that into you, right?

So after this happened three times, Dave realized, no, she's trying to get him to stay with her and cancel his dates. Yeah. But that didn't work. He would leave for his date anyway. And you know, she got more and more pissed off every time it happened. She was like, this did not work. My plan did not work. I got to try something different next time.

I got to try a different position and different piece of a lingerie. Also, just to knock Dave a little bit. He could easily say don't come over. Yeah, well, I guess she would show up. She wouldn't, like, call ahead of time. All right. Well, if she was just randomly showing up, okay. But if there's any indication where she was like, hey, I'm going to come by.

And he's like, well, if you want to. No, even just randomly showing up, like, as a man, you have to have enough self-control to be like, no, I can still say no. Even though you're in person and you look really good, I can still say no to you because this is starting to get a little crazy with. Yeah, sending messages too. Yeah, exactly. So there were also issues whenever Dave went to see his kids. So he would drive to counsel bluffs and meet Amy and the kids at a public place, something completely normal for parents who share custody.

But Liz absolutely hated the visits because it meant Dave was seeing Amy. And she would make comments about how much time he was spending with Amy, suggesting he was cheating. And Dave would remind her that he was there to see his kids. And what he did with his time wasn't her business. So now Liz is also jealous of Amy, who Dave's already been with for 10 years and it didn't work out. So she's jealous of his future girlfriends, his current girlfriends, his past wife, basically any other woman in his life, which is a bad sign. I know we've talked about Liz a few different times here and we're talking about how she should have taken a hint and got out of there and stopped, you know, giving him the certain benefits of a relationship without the actual relationship.

I got to put some blame on Dave here, though, because he has all these red flags that are being shown, and yet he's thinking with the wrong head, right? He sees it. He knows what's going on. He's having these uncomfortable conversations where he has to remind her it's none of her business. But clearly he can see that she's emotionally invested. She's jealous over these things. It's not going to lead anywhere good.

You've got to stop having sex with her. If someone's accusing you of cheating when you're technically not in a relationship. Yeah, with your baby mama. Like, I mean, that's a red flag. You need to make a conscious decision not to see her anymore. And he didn't up to this point at least. I mean, don't act like men don't cheat with their baby mamas, though. That's what I'm saying.

He could be sleeping with his baby mama. It wouldn't be crazy to think that he's out there having sex with a woman that he had a kid with. Two kids, yeah. But if he is, it's none of her business. However, if you're involving her in your life consistently and she's voicing these opinions, it's kind of your bet that you've got to lay in it. Like you're sending mixed signals at this point. get out of it.

Yeah. He's showing you who she is and yet you're not, you're not getting out of the situation. They're both showing each other who they are. Right. Right. Some people like this kind of toxic relationship. I will say that. They like,

I think it's clear why he's sticking with her. Well, remember, she gave him his confidence back. So. Right. And I mean, let's just be bummed. We're all adults here. She was probably good sex. They had been seven sex for a while.

She was sexually adventurous. He liked the convenience. He liked the, you know, I guess the adventure of it. Yeah, you know, and so he's out there trying to find new fish. but at the same time going back to the one that he's comfortable with. And to be candid, something that's pretty much, it appears to be automatic at this point where he wants to hook up, Liz is available. It's familiar.

It's comfortable. He knows he can kind of try new things with her where you might not feel that comfortable doing that with somebody you just met. Yeah. So it's like once again, all the benefits and comfortability of a relationship without giving that person yourself, which is unfair. Yeah. And so a lot of what the other things that he's experiencing, as far as her calling him out

for cheating and all this other stuff. He thinks he can manage it. Yeah, well, not working good. Well, we've been in true crime long enough to know. To know, and ain't going to end well. With some people, you can't. So this all, of course, became a huge point of contention for Dave. It really bothered him that Liz was being so jealous, but no matter what he said,

Liz didn't back off. She kept pushing and pushing, becoming more jealous of the time he spent with Amy. Eventually, Dave told her he didn't want to talk to her anymore because he didn't need the drama. She left him alone for a few weeks, but then reached out again, asking for help with something at her house. And because she was a single mom, Dave agreed. But would you believe it after he helped her out with what he was there to help her out with,

they had sex or at least she suggested they have sex? And then they did have sex. And just like that, they were back to talking again, which would you believe it was probably Liz's plan the whole time? She didn't need help with anything at home. Come on. It's a tale is oldest time. That is a trick that goes all the way back in the book.

of tricks that men and women use with each other. You know, it's the same thing as like leaving something behind at somebody's house. So they have an excuse to see them again. She gave him some space for a few weeks to prove she could, to prove she wasn't crazy. All right, I can leave you alone. But then she's like, all right, he's probably missing me. He misses, you know, what we had together. And he's going to come over to help and I'm going to be wearing something cute,

something low cut. And then it's going to happen. And then just like that, they are back on talking again, having sex again, in the same toxic pattern that wasn't working out for either of them before they're back at it again. So this was the start of a cycle between Dave and Liz. Surprise, surprise. Things would go well for a few weeks and then the same patterns would start again. Liz would become clingy, jealous, and accuse him of cheating with Amy and Dave would get frustrated and tell her he didn't want to see her anymore. Then she would back off and disappear for a few weeks, come back asking for.

her help, Dave would go over and they'd get back together. So as time went on, Liz's behavior escalated and she became less willing to back down when Dave put up boundaries. Yeah, because at this point, Dave has sent her a message, I can't stay away from you. And she's in her head thinking, he's into me. He just, you know, he's afraid of commitment or he's not able to love, but he, he's into me and he loves me. He just can't admit it. Like, because you keep coming back. You keep coming back. So she now wanted constant communication, right? Because she thinks she's got him. And she would text, email, she would call Dave dozens of times throughout the day.

She'd even show up at his apartment unannounced to try to talk to him. And by September of 2012, they had only been seeing each other on and off again for a few months, but Liz was already pushing for a commitment. Dave kept saying no, but she continued to bring it up, suggesting they try a four-week commitment where they would only see each other. during that time so he could see what it was like. So basically she's saying, we'll be exclusive for four weeks. We will only see each other and you can get an idea of what it's like.

Well, he was with Amy for 10 years. He knows what it's like. He told Liz no three separate times, but she kept asking. And eventually he agreed just to get her to stop. Oh. So at that point, he wasn't really seeing other women anyway because he was busy. with the kids in dealing with Liz constantly contacting him. So it kind of felt easier to just say yes, like play into it, appease her.

And then at the end of the four weeks, I can be like, yeah, as I thought this wasn't for me. And hopefully that sends a sign that all the other signs haven't sent before. Yeah, but again, he could have also said, you're pushing me too much. I don't like the pressure. We're done. No sex, no nothing. But it sounds to me reading between the lines, he didn't want to give up the second. side of things. So he agreed to appease her because there was something still in it for him.

I don't think that he was doing this out of the goodness of his heart. He was benefiting from it as well. So again, I'm going to say this phrase a couple times, thinking more with the wrong head in this situation where the only reason he was willing to do it was because, candidly, he wanted to keep having sex with her. Yeah, which is, you know, the epitome of what she's feeling. I'm being used for sex and I want to prove that I'm not being used for sex and that I have more worth than that. When that worth has to come from within Liz. All right? So he kept his word and he didn't date anyone else during those four weeks. But during that time, Carrie came into high attire to have her explorer worked on. And he did. He felt an immediate connection with her. So what Carrie was feeling and she was like,

I wonder if he's feeling it too. He was. But the reason he didn't ask her out was because he promised Liz that he would be exclusive for four weeks. Okay. And listen, Dave's a simple man who, yes, is a man and he thinks with the wrong head. But at least he's like trying to keep his word here. Like he's trying to do the morally correct thing. And he's trying to be honest with Liz and he's telling her I don't want anything serious even though he's sending the wrong, the wrong kind of messages, because I think for a lot of men, sex is something different than it is for a lot of women. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong technically. But he did not ask out Carrie, even though he did want to because of what he had promised Liz.

Can I just ask for all the viewers out there that are like me, anyone who's listening or watching right now, a lot of what you're describing here is it safe to assume much of this is coming from his account of what he remembers, how it happened? Is that fair to say? Yes. Sort of. I just wonder, you know, where the truth really is. There is, yes, there's documented evidence, yeah. Okay.

Of the timelines. I'm sure most of it's true, but as far as the reasoning, the motives and the intentions and all that. Well, also, Dave didn't want to cross any boundaries because Carrie was a customer at that time. That would make more sense. Yeah. It would be difficult to go that far without knowing for sure that the feeling would be reciprocated because you can get fired. Yeah. I mean.

That makes more sense. Self-preservation opposed to being concerned about how it would make Liz feel. It makes more sense to me. According to him, it was a little bit about it. Okay, well, according to him. So Dave is keeping his word to Liz. He doesn't want to cross any boundaries because he's got a job there. And, you know, he needs a job.

He's got kids to provide for. And he doesn't want to get fired. But the second time Carrie came in, his four weeks were coming to an end. And he'd seen her on plenty of fish. Because remember, she, you know, made a connection with him there. He knew she was single. and she thought he was single and he technically was, but not technically. So before Carrie left, Dave asked her out and they made plans to go on that date three days later on October 29th.

So by that day, the four-week commitment was up and Dave once again made it clear to Liz. Okay, I did the four weeks. I did what you asked. Yeah, nothing has changed. Nothing changed. It's still what it is. I'm still not looking for anything serious. I'm still not looking for a commitment with you, with you.

That should have been Liz's cute. to be like, okay, no problem, have a good life. Yeah. And then as planned, Dave and Carrie went on their first date, meeting at Applebee's. And from the beginning, they were having a great time. But before they were even done eating, Dave's phone started blowing up with texts and calls from you know who, Liz. So he ignored all of them.

But after they continued for 10 minutes straight, Dave started to think something might actually be wrong. So he got up, he went to the bathroom and answered. Liz then said she needed to get her things from his place right now at that moment. Despite not seeing him for a few days, she had chosen the exact moment he was on a date to be concerned about a couple of shirts, a toothbrush, and some pans that she had left there a few weeks earlier. Dave told her that he was on a date and to leave him alone. And then he went back to the table with Carrie. That ain't going to go well.

Did you have to tell her you on a date, man? Well, I think she already knew he was on a date. She did. I know. I mean, I don't think he was telling her anything she wasn't aware of. Hence the reason she was calling at that moment multiple times for a toothbrush. It's just like add insult to injury here. So despite the interruption, Dave still felt like things were going really well with Carrie.

And he asked her if she wanted to go back to his apartment, which was nearby. Dave. Damn. What are we thinking, Dave? Damn, Dave. Knowing, knowing Liz is lurking. Is always lurking? Yeah, that's a risk.

That is a risk. As the one of the like three percent of guys that are listening to this episode, I'm going to say that Dave doesn't sound as innocent as I, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, is a risk. he's portraying himself to be. I'm just going to be that guy. Or he's just not that smart or he literally just... That's what guys use as an excuse. I'm just dumb. I didn't think about it.

He knew exactly what he was doing. Some men are like actually dumb, man. Yeah, I mean, it could be a combination. But I'm going to say it, you know, I think this dude's a player. Definitely a player. That's my opinion. Yeah. Maybe it's a girl dad in me, but this guy seems like he's out there just slinging it.

Yeah. Trying to hook up with women. Well, yeah, obviously. That's why he's on playing. plenty of fish. Like you have one girl hitting you up saying, I'm at my place. I need my stuff. And he's like, eh, I'm on a date. And he's trying to bring another girl there that same night. That seems pretty idiotic to me. Yeah. And this is the first, first date for him. Trying to bring her back to the apartment. Yeah. So it's also like, do you really like Carrie? Yeah. Or do you really just want to have sex with her?

There you go. Okay. So Carrie says yes, right? Because she's into Dave. She's been trying to get him on her hook for two weeks. And when they left the restaurant, they headed over to Dave. apartment together. Almost as soon as they got inside, Liz started ringing the bell at the security door of Dave's apartment building. Shocker. Which he should have known what was going to happen. Yeah, I mean, come on. She said, I got to get my stuff right now. You know she's in like a very intense state of mind. She was probably at Applebee's. She was probably watching him leave the apartment. She was probably at Applebee's. She probably followed them back to the apartment. So Dave left Carrie in the apartment and he went down to talk to Liz, who was crying and upset and saying she needed to get her

things. And if I'm Carrie right now, I'm like, I'm out. I'm out. Yeah, for sure. Your phone's blowing up at dinner. You're going to the bathroom all sketchy, making calls. Said you were single. Some crazy crying woman at your door.

Yeah, exactly. No, I'm out. So Dave was like, you can't get your things right now, whatever, but Liz refused to leave. So Dave left her at the security door. He went back upstairs to explain the situation to carry, telling her that a woman he had been seeing was nearly hysterical and refusing to leave. And at this point, Dave's like, yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm just so, I'm catniped to these women.

You know, you felt the connection immediately, Carrie. You get it, you get it. You just, they keep coming back. It's what happens. It's a curse. They just, they're hysterical about me. I'm like the Beatles. And Carrie, instead of seeing this as a red flag, she was completely understanding, right?

She laughed it off. She said something like, we've all been there. Call me when you get it straightened out. So Dave walked Carrie down to the security. door where Liz was waiting. What the hell? He didn't introduce them. And neither women acknowledged the other as he let carry out. And Dave's in his glory right now, right? He's like, look at these two women, just like sending daggers at each other, not even exchanging pleasantries over little old me, Dave, the catch of Omaha, the catch on plenty of fish. Oh,

this had to have really been stoking his ego. So, Carrie went back to her car. She started driving home. At the same time, Liz rushed inside and dramatically started gathering her things from Dave's place. But when she was done, she didn't leave. She stayed, of course, to argue and crying. Eventually, Dave asked her to leave and she did. And not long after that, he called Carrie.

She was still on her way home. So Liz wasn't there for that long. And she invited him to come out to her place. So she's like, all right, the night's not over. The night is still young. It didn't work out at your place, but what about mine? Now, Dave said yes. He hopped in the car immediately.

When he got to Carrie's place, they continued having a good time, just like before. And Dave couldn't help but notice how much he liked her. She was beautiful. She was fun. She was really smart, which stood out to him. And then as they were sitting there, she told him she didn't want anything serious. Those words were music to Dave's ears. After months of Liz pushing for more, Carrie's laid-back approach to relationships felt like a relief.

And he ended up spending the night. And over the next 10 days, they saw each other about every other day. Even though neither of them wanted anything serious, they were doing things together that Dave had never done with Liz. They went shopping for a better couch for his apartment, which had been more of a bachelor setup with bare furniture. And Carrie, who had a talent for interior decorating, helped him pick out something much better that he liked. And in return, Dave helped Carrie look for a car for her son Max, who would be driving soon. So they're doing relationship stuff, right? This is reminding me of that movie, Friends with Benefits.

Or what's the one? Is that Ashton Cudger? Okay, but it's not, I'm saying the wrong movie then. It's the one with Justin Timberlake and Milakunis. Oh, that might be friends with benefits. Whatever one, that one is. I get all those rom-coms. Yeah, like this is, I think you might be right.

But my point being... I think you might be right. Well, you know, I know my rom-coms. You know you're Justin Timberlake. I definitely know JT. The thing about it, it's kind of like this, this gray area because just like in that movie, there's a sexual relationship where you're meeting up late night,

it's hookups, and you're not, you're not cuddling through the night, you're not going out interior decorating, you're not doing all these relationship things, but it seems like Dave wants a relationship just without the title, which gives him an opportunity to still say, hey, we're not exclusive.

So if he finds someone else, he's like keeping that door open. It's like all the, benefits of the relationship without committing to it. Yeah, I think Dave wants a relationship until he thinks the other person does. Yeah, that too. I just think he's looking for the bigger, better deal all the time. Well, he wants to keep one foot out the door in case. Like, there's no commitment. He didn't, he didn't want to get married to Amy, remember? So I think just in general, some people have issues with commitment. He wants the benefits of a relationship when

they're convenient for him. Yeah. So here's the thing. Carrie tells him. Carrey tells him, she doesn't want anything serious. Liz told him that too, remember, in the beginning? She was like, yeah, I don't want anything serious either. Now Carrie's saying to him, and Dave's like, okay, this is good, let's do it. But in this situation, Dave's kind of into Carrie now. Like he really likes her. And during that time, Liz kept trying to contact Dave, but he completely ignored her now,

which only made her more upset because now he's found someone he likes. He's enjoying this person's company. He can have conversations with her. He can do all the stuff with her. And he likes, you know, sleeping with her. So he has what he needs now. There's not a part where he needs to, like, fill a hole in his life. And Liz is worthless to Dave now.

This is horrible to say, but that's exactly what we're dealing with here. And Liz is understanding that. And she's becoming really angry. So around November 7th, Liz called Dave and said she thought she'd left some pans at place and he offered to bring them to her. But once he got there, she immediately jumped on him and they had sex. Yeah, I'm putting to blame on Dave. Dave has no control over himself.

No, I'm putting the blame on Dave because, again, like she jumped on him. Come on. Come on. I mean, she might have, but you can still say no. Did you speak to Dave before this script was created because Dave is a victim in every sense of the word? No, Dave talked to Ann Roll, the author who wrote the book. But listen, she may have.

She jumped on him, Stephanie. But that doesn't mean that you're... What was he supposed to do? But that doesn't mean that you can't be like, peel someone off you. That's what I'm saying. You know? Oh my God. She jumped on me.

And I'm trying not to be too vulgar here, but like... But what does that mean? How did your pants get off? How did you, you know, let's... How did everything else happen? Come on, man. She jumped on me. She jumped on me.

I couldn't, I could... Period. End of story. I had her pants on my hand and I was smacking her with him, but... Did you file charges, Dave? Was it that bad? Belcro. Come on, man.

He went over there. He wanted one last hurrah. Yep. But in her head, in Liz's head, it's not one last hurrah, right? It's once again,

hope being dangled at front of her. It's also confirming to her like there's still something there. There's still something there. Even though he's seeing someone he really likes,

he still wants me. But for Dave, the sex with Liz didn't change anything. He continued seeing Carrie and he continued spending as much time with Carrie as possible.

And then on November 9th or 10th, Carrie's explorer was vandalized with silver spray paint on the hood and down the side along with a deep scratch. So Carrie and her son, Max, spent hours removing the paint, but even so, Carrie didn't appear to be angry. She was surprised, though. Her car had been parked in Macedonia, where nothing bad ever happened. I mean, there's 300 people that live there. So I think we know where this is going, right? Oh, no, no.

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All right, we're back. So a few days later on November 12th, Carrie was scheduled to start a week-long project at work that would require long hours. Dave offered to let her stay at his place so she wouldn't have to commute back and forth, and she accepted and arranged for her son Max to stay with her mom and stepdad. Yeah, I was about to say a totally normal thing for just two people who are having sex. Yeah, right, exactly. Come on.

So that Monday, Carrie went to work as expected, and she got out sometime between 8 p.m. and 9 p.m. And then she went back to Dave's and spent the night. The next morning, Tuesday, Dave left for work at around 6.15 a.m. when he left, Carrie was awake and on her laptop working on coding that needed to be finished soon. She also called work around that same time and left a message for her boss saying she was working on things. The plan was for her to finish the code that morning, go into the office, meet with coworkers, and verify everything.

They were on a deadline and everyone was depending on her. But Carrie never made it into the office that morning. Her supervisor was shocked because she was always reliable and always on time and she had just called with an update not long before. By mid-morning, when Carrie still hadn't shown up, the supervisor called her, but it went straight to voicemail. The supervisor left a message and continued trying to reach Carrie throughout the day, but there was no response. Carrie's phone wasn't completely silent that day, though. At around 10 a.m., Dave got a text from Carrie's phone asking if he wanted to live together,

and that immediately caught him off guard because they had already agreed the relationship was casual. Now, Dave's thinking, like, man, I let this woman spend a few days with me and Dave, the catnip Dave, worked again? What is my deal? It is a curse. These women always want to just marry me as soon as they spend a little time with me. So he responded, no. And then less than 30 seconds later, another text came through that said, quote, fine, I hate you. I'm dating someone else. I don't want to see you anymore. Go away. End quote. Now, Dave didn't know what to think. He's probably thinking, why is every woman that I meet absolutely out of her mind? Why am I so appealing to all these women, he was completely thrown off because this didn't feel like the Carrie that he had gotten to know.

But at the same time, he reminded himself that he didn't really know her all that well yet, and he didn't want to deal with the drama, so he put his phone down and he went back to work. Now, when Dave got home that evening, Carrie was gone. And after that, he didn't receive any messages from her for almost two days. Carrie's job didn't hear from her either. The only person who got a message from Carrie's phone was her mom, Nancy, who received a text on Tuesday saying that Carrie had found a new job in Kansas. And that didn't make sense to Nancy because Carrie was already working her dream job.

And she liked living close to her family and her father was in hospice. And there was all these things tying Carrie to where she was. And this is just not like Carrie at all. Over the next few days, Nancy kept texting Carrie asking things like, when was she going to pick Max up because they were supposed to go to a wedding for Carrie's half birthday where Max would be the usher. The wedding had been moved up because Carrie's father was not doing well. but Nancy never got a response, which was unusual because she and Carrie talked every single day.

So at this point, Carrie's basically left, not going to work, not picking up her kid, not doing anything. And this is sending up a ton of red flags. It's not typical for Carrie. And Carrie never showed up for the wedding either, which was completely out of character for her. She wouldn't have missed something like that, especially with her dad in hospice, and she would not have left Max and her family without any communication. But Nancy didn't have Dave's contact information. She didn't even know anything about him.

She didn't even know his last name or where he lived. So she had no way to reach out to him to ask if he had seen Carrie. She was left trying to figure things out on her own. Then on Thursday, November 15th, Carrie's employer received a text from her phone saying she was resigning and that she was sending Liz Goiler to replace her. This is bananas. So later that same day, Liz filled out an online application with the company and listed Carrie as her reference. Carrie's supervisor was just absolutely confused, completely shocked by the whole scenario.

The idea that Carrie would try to send someone to replace her didn't make sense, especially since Carrie knew the company had a strict hiring process and wouldn't just bring someone in like that, especially someone who didn't have a background in computers when you're doing coding work. But she did stay at a holiday inn. You don't get that reference. It's a commercial. Because they have a business center? No, it's like the holiday in commercials where they're like in a surgical room.

They're in a hospital and, like, this person's about to have surgery and they're looking at this guy putting on gloves. And he's like, oh, are you a heart surgeon? He's like, no, but I did stay at a holiday in last night. Yeah, because I think it's because they have like a business center, right? Yeah, it's supposed to be for like traveling professionals. Whatever it is. So, like, yeah, she has no background in computers, but, you know, it was a joke that didn't land. She did stay at a house?

Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sure it landed for some of you out there. I'm sure it did. I'm sure it did. But I was like, really, did she stay at a holiday in? Like, do you know this case? No, but that all said, this is. wild. Like, I'm trying to let you get through the context here, so I'm not like interrupting the

whole time, but to think that Carrie would not only recommend someone based on all the things you just said, that's not their practice, it's not their policy, but then to recommend the woman who was sleeping with the same guy as her, crazy. Well, nobody would really know that except Dave, nobody would know that except Dave, but also take Dave out of the equation. Carrie didn't know Liz before Dave. All she saw her was in passing. She saw her once, yeah. So she's not going to recommend a woman that she's never interacted with before. But nobody knows that except Dave.

Nobody knows it. But crazy if the person sending this text is who I think it is. Why would you expose yourself like this? But anyway, okay. She's not right in the head. Okay. Yeah. Obviously. I'm listening. I'm listening. I know this is a multi-parter, but I'm like, where are we going with this? It feels like we're going already. Yeah, it feels like this is going to be a slam dunk. But I digress. Let's see. All right. So also, also, Also on November 15th, Dave's phone started blowing up with messages from Carrie that said things like, quote, I hate you. You've ruined my life. You're a terrible person. End quote. Because now Liz is mad. Because Liz is like, hey, I thought he really liked Carrie, but he hasn't messaged her either. So, you know, I have to get a response out of him. Liz is doing what Liz would do if it was her, but she's doing it as Carrie. And so Dave believed Carrie was the ones sending those messages. He had no idea that just one day later on Friday, November 16th, Carrie's mom reported. her missing to the Potawatomi County Sheriff's Office, which served Macedonia residents.

A deputy came to Nancy's house and took the report, but it was clear he did not think the situation was suspicious. I mean, we've seen this a million times. Carrie's an adult. She has every right to disappear, not call her mom. She got a new boyfriend. You know, she's got all these responsibilities. She wanted to, like, take a break from them.

Yeah. Can I address this quick, though, because although it happens all the time, I talked a lot about this on detected perspective because it's always unsolved. and I practiced what I preach here. Okay. There's a distinction, right? And I think we have to make it clear. As a police officer, when you respond to a call like this,

and someone says there's an adult, there's no previous medical history, nothing that would suggest that this is something you need to report right away. There is a clear difference between reporting it, entering this person into NCIC, and doing the investigation. Simply put, you can tell the complaint. the person trying to make the report. Unfortunately, they're an adult. Maybe they don't want to be found.

I can't report them missing yet. They have a right to do what they want to do and have that privacy. However, if you don't mind, I'd love to have their car registration. I'd love to have their phone number, any potential addresses they would go do. The phone numbers of people, they were friends or colleagues. I want all of that. Why? Just in case we have to do something later.

But in reality, what I'm going to do and what I also, always did was I went and found that person. I conducted the full investigation without the report. And it usually ended with me calling the person and finally getting a hold of them, whether it was directly or by me just being a nuisance and contacting all their friends and being like, hey, listen, I need her to call me. I don't care where she is. She doesn't have to tell me, but I need to hear her voice. And normally I would get that call. What do you want? Listen, sorry. Just so you know, so-and-so is looking for you. I didn't take a report.

You're good to do what you want. I just wanted to hear your voice and have you tell me you're okay. Once I got that, I'm good. So I say all that to say, I don't know where this case is going, but there's a big difference between, hey, I can't do nothing and not making the report. I totally agree with that in most circumstances, although this one is a little odd. But there should be a follow-up in this story where you tell me, yeah, Derek, they didn't take the report, but they did contact her and speak with them.

That is the proper procedure. Or they contacted her employer or they contacted this guy that she was last known to be with who Kerry's mom didn't even know. So it's like, well, yeah, this guy could be like a murderer. No doubt. No doubt. There should be an investigation. There have been dozens, if not a hundred different cases where I was being contacted by a significant other. Someone who's, you know, had some stock and where this person was.

and they would be calling me after the fact like, yeah, I still haven't heard from this person, and I already knew where they were, and I knew they were safe. And I'm like, yeah, listen, unfortunately, sorry, I can't report them. There's more context of these stories sometimes where this person may not want to be found by this other individual, whether I agree with it or not. Not my story to tell, not my decision to make. But I hate when we hear this because of the technicality of the law, officers wipe their hands clean of it.

I can't take the report. And this happened on my job, by the way. When I was a supervisor as a sergeant and I would get the report or the dispatch log and I would say to them, all right, did we track them down though? Did we at least put eyes on them or have ears on them? No. What do you mean? No. They're an adult.

Yeah. Talk to Carrie's boss and they'd be like she never misses work. This is really out of being. You have multiple people. One phone call, right? One phone call. But they, no, I didn't. She's an adult.

What can I do? You can find her. Find her. Make sure she's okay. call the employer. Like you said, everything you just went through. I want to know that she's okay. And then once we know that, I'm good with it. But this, it's nonsense. I get so frustrated with this response and it's, it's prevalent throughout law enforcement because they always rely on this, right? There should be documentation showing, hey, this is what I did. Right in the dispatch log,

don't have to pull an official case number. Although I didn't take the report because of this, this, this and this, I did speak to this person confidentially. They're fine. Normally not the case, though, as you know. No, and that's what's annoying. I mean, once again, this I think has changed in recent years. And I'm going to give you credit because you've been doing this longer than me and all of you listening and watching. It's the public pressure. It's the embarrassment that comes with them not doing their job and then podcasters and YouTubers and television shows and streaming services calling them out by just presenting the facts and all of us going, well, why wouldn't the conversation we're having right now,

well, why wouldn't they have followed up with it, even if they didn't take an official report? So now there is that policy where supervisors and patrolmen are saying, I don't want to be on Netflix, you know? And if that's the reason they're doing it, that's fine. And just the amount of cases where it's been proven that there was something going on that could have been.

No doubt. You don't know until you follow up on it. They don't want to be on the next episode of Crime Weekly. If that's the reason they're doing it, I'm fine with it. But you are right. has been a change in recent years. And I strongly do believe it's because of crowd solving and podcast. And that is one of the benefits to having true crime creators have a platform where they can expose this behavior.

And even though they're not legislators, they can enact change. Well, Nancy pushed back. She told him she understood all of that. Carries an adult, whatever. But this wasn't normal for her daughter. And something was wrong. But no matter what Nancy said her concerns were not taken seriously. And things took an even more difficult turn when the officer asked about mental health.

And Nancy shared that Carrie had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and was on medication. So the officer told her situations like this happen all the time where someone stops taking their medication, starts acting erratically. Nancy told the officer that wasn't what was happening, but he didn't listen. And the only action he took was entering Carrie into NCIC. So especially if you're having a mental health episode, that's even more of a reason to track Carrie down now, I think, right? So he's like, oh, she's off her meds and she's bipolar and she's acting erratically. This happens all the time.

She'll be back. This is even more of a reason to make sure she's okay. Am I wrong? Of course. And everyone knows, I think, at this point, what NCIC is. Is that fair to say? What do you think? Oh, yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah.

National Crime Information Center. It's basically a national database that all police departments have access to. You can enter people for missing persons. You can enter stolen vehicles. you can enter anything you can think of. If you're looking for someone, this is the database you would enter it in. And this is where you see in the movies,

TV shows, whatever, where they'll, you know, I'll say 37 to 311, can you run a 28 on or 29 on this person? The dispatcher then looks into NCIC. It's not an internal database. They will run that person and it will report back if they have any warrants not only locally but nationally. It'll let you know if it's an extraditable warrant. It's all in there entered by the individual agency.

is responsible for uploading that. So I will say this is better than some of the cases I hear because at least what this does is if she's stopped by an officer, whether it's under a good circumstance or a bad one and they say, hey, what's your name? I just want to enter you into dispatch. At that point, the dispatcher's job is to run all those people, even if it's just like a normal routine stop, like, hey, there's a party going on. I just want to document these people or here.

The dispatcher, if it's accessible and convenient at the time, if they're not, too busy. They're supposed to run those people to make sure that there's no violent offenders, nobody with warrants. And at that point, they would respond back to the officer and say, hey, just so you know, that person's currently entered as missing. And that's where you go from there. So I like the fact that they at least did that. It was the least they could do. Yeah. And you know, we've done this a long time. That's not even the case a lot of the time. But I think the standard should be, I'm not only going to enter her into NCIC and hope that someone runs into her. Well, he probably did that because of the bipolar, because of her not having her medication.

I agree, but he should have went and found her for those reasons. He should have conducted his own independent investigation, confirmed she was okay, and then you don't need to enter into NCIC because you already know she's fine. So there's an acknowledgement that she could be in danger by entering her into NCIC, because you're not supposed to if you think she's fine, and yet no investigations conducted. They're contradictory, the actions. Yeah.

So I don't like it. Well, it was like the easiest thing you do without having to do anything. It's lazy. Thank you. It's laziness. They just don't want to be involved. So then on Saturday, November 17th, Carrie's phone texted her mother Nancy again, this time asking Nancy to let a woman into Carrie's house to pick up a bedroom set she had supposedly purchased.

The text included a photo of a $5,000 check made out to Carrie with bedroom set written on the memo line. There were a media. idiot red flags for Nancy. For starters, Carrie didn't have a matching bedroom set. Her furniture was a mix of antiques, many of which had been in the family for generations. And Nancy couldn't imagine her selling any of it. The check itself also looks suspicious. It was a starter check. So they're the ones that you get at the bank before your real checks come. There's no name or address printed on them like a normal check would have. So the whole thing felt off like someone was pretending to be Carrie. Yeah. No phone call, by the way. All text message. Yeah. That to me as well. as a red flag because I'd say, hey, can you call me quick? Yeah. You know, can I hear your voice? Then that's exactly what Nancy did. Nancy texted back saying she needed to hear Carrie's voice before she would do anything.

I love it. And then the responses became angry, calling Nancy a bad and controlling mother. And that confirmed it for Nancy because the person texting her was not Carrie. Carrie had never spoken to Nancy like that, not once. They had a good relationship. They were supportive of each other. They weren't a toxic family dynamic. and clearly the person texting did not know that.

And the messages themselves had grammatical and spelling issues, which was another red flag, because Carrie was very particular about things like that, even in texts. So Nancy contacted the police again, relaying information about the conversation, but they still didn't see it as concerning. Ridiculous. I know. They believed Carrie was fine and would come back. And part of that may have been because her Facebook and phone remained active.

In fact, multiple people in Carrie's life, including Carrie's mother Nancy, Carrie's son Max and Carrie's friend Amber kept receiving messages from Carrie's phone. Dave also received dozens of messages a day telling him he belonged to Carrie and referring to Liz as a whore. So it wasn't long before Liz reached out to Dave and told him that his crazy ex-Carry had found her number and address and was harassing her as well. She claimed she was receiving threatening messages and that Carrie had even broken into her garage and spray painted the words, horror from Dave on the wall. Liz told Dave how upset she was to be targeted by his stalker. And Dave thought things with Liz were over and he hadn't planned to see her again.

But now he felt obligated. He felt bad. He felt like he had to meet with her and talk about what was going on. He apologized for what was happening to her. She accepted. And they started seeing each other. They started seeing each other again on and off. I'm not a fan of Dave in case you can't tell.

Yeah. So basically, Liz planned this whole elaborate thing and she got what she wanted out of it. Allegedly. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Dave either. I'm going to be honest. So things did remain rocky as they would, but one thing always seemed to pull them back together. And that was the fact that over the next three years, both Liz and Dave would be the targets of a relentless stalking campaign that would escalate into arson, gun violence, and more. So Liz is orchestrating a trauma bond to keep this man in her life for three years. Insane. All of that's going to have to wait, though, Derek.

It's going to have to wait. But I do want to round this episode out by saying this could have been solved very quickly. I can't believe that they let Carrie be missing for three years. No, it's insane. Just as simple as, hey, Nancy, I see you're receiving phone calls from Carrie. She won't call you back. Okay. We know how to solve that.

We're going to take this as a report. We're going to secretly call AT&T, Verizon, whatever service she has. This is 2012, right? We're going to get the coordinates for that phone. We're going to have you keep interacting with this person so that they keep their phone on, which is going to result in more pings. We're going to triangulate it. We're going to pin it down.

We're going to go to that location. We're going to locate Carrie or the person with their phone, and we're going to figure out what happened to her. Done. Case over. This person thinks they're in the clear. They're going to keep their phone on. interacting with people, it's solved. I mean, this is not brain surgery. And so the fact that

none of that was done or even just, I wouldn't have gone this route. I like to be a little bit more creative. But if you were really lazy, you could also just leave a voicemail on Kerry's phone saying, hey, this is Officer Lavasser. I need you to call me back immediately. If you don't, we're going to report you're missing. And then if you don't get a phone call back, then you know something's up. But I wouldn't have done that route because it spooks not only potentially Carrie, but who has her phone, I would have gone the other route, file the report, get it approved, go to a judge, get the search warrant for the phone, track her down, make sure she's okay, or get the drop on the person who's currently in possession of her phone because the people closest to her,

her own mother, who knows her better than you, is saying it's not her. What more credible witness do you need in that? So that's what I would have done. And she never comes back and just leaves her son and her life and everything behind? No, it's crazy. And I'm frustrated not because, of the case. I'm frustrated because I know this is a multi-parter, and the reality is we shouldn't be covering it. It should have been a slam dunk. None of this other stuff that you're going to cover

for the next couple episodes should even have transpired. And when you go down to the foundation of why that occurred, it's law enforcement. It's the inaction, it's the laziness, it's the incompetence, it's all of that. And that is my job here. Like, I can't defend this. None of this other stuff.

Like they probably couldn't have stopped whatever happened to Kerry. I don't know what happened to you. I'm hoping you tell me that she's still out there. My gut tells me that's not the case. And they may not have been able to prevent that. That's on some other people and we'll get into that. But the whole going on for three years. Yeah, this is on law enforcement.

This is at their feet. Obviously the person responsible, which I think we're all looking, we're all looking in Liz's direction. We're all looking at you, Liz. We're all looking at you. but there's so many more layers to this. And I'm glad you're covering it because just like with Crime Weekly News earlier this week, talking about Athena Strand, right?

There's not a lot we can do to go back and change what happened. We can only learn from it. And this is an opportunity to learn from it and call out bad police work. Because again, like we said mid-episode here, the public pressure and the exposure to this bad police work is in a way, effectively how we get it to stop. By having our own people, meaning me, calling them out, saying you're morons. What are you doing?

And if for no other reason than that, it usually does have people say, I don't want to get called out, man. I'm going to go cover my bases. I don't want people to know I'm a moron. Yeah, exactly. And if you are, just quit. Just quit, man. Go find another job. But this is a insane case.

Yeah. This is. I can understand why, as you said, there's a book about it. Yeah. And a non-rule book. Oh, yeah, man. This is like, I can only wait to, I can only imagine where this is going to go. But it's an interesting one, that's for sure.

Any final words from you? There's one of the announcement I had to make, but that was it. No, I'm good. I mean. Just a real quick one for anybody who doesn't know, Stephanie and I have a coffee company called Criminal Coffee. We donate a portion of the profits to solving cold cases. We also donate to foundations that are there to support victims and their families.

And also try to find the bad guys. right now for anybody who doesn't know go over to criminal coffee co.com. We have a few sales going on, but one of the biggest ones are for our decaf drinkers. If you haven't tried decaf or you're someone who wants to stock up on it, we have decaf k cups. We're going to have small runs in the future. But right now we have an extreme discount on it because we want more people to try it. Lowest price we've ever had to be up on the screen here. We also have flavored coffees like hazelnut, French vanilla, and then our singular roasts like undercover roast, alias,

and Rogue. Rogue is probably our most popular. Hazel knot is so good. Yeah, they're all great. And again, portion of the profits go to solving cold cases. We have a couple other cases we're working on right now and we're continuously donating to foundations.

And you're able to go on to the website for transparency purposes and see where your money is going. So if you want to support that cause and get a great cup of coffee, go check us out at criminal coffeeco.com. That's going to do it for us, guys. We're going to be back next week. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

Bye.