Crime Weekly - S1 Ep12: The Murder of Faith Hedgepeth (Part I)

Episode Date: February 19, 2021

Faith Hedgepeth was born on  September 26th 1992 in Warren County North Carolina. She was part of the Haliwa Saponi Native American tribe and her parents Roland and Connie Hegepeth whose parents divorced only a few months after she was born. Her father Roland moved to Hickory North Carolina, a four hour drive away, and Faith remained with her mother and sister Roland who was eighteen years older than Faith and who felt as if she was a second mother to her baby sister. In high school Faith was very active, actively participating in many clubs and organizations as well as cheerleading, and she was also an honor student which earned her the Gates Millenium Scholarship, a program meant to promote academic excellence and provide the opportunity for outstanding minority students with significant financial need to reach their highest potential. Faith was accepted at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and she and her family had high hopes for her future. Faith knew she wanted to help people, especially children, by becoming a pediatrician or a teacher, and once she completed college she would become the first member of her family to hold a college degree. Faith had her whole life in front of her, and with her intelligence, excellent people skills and big heart, she would make a positive impact on the world. But on September 6th 2012, Faith’s bright light was extinguished. She was found beaten to death in the off campus apartment she shared with her friend, Karina Rosario. Faith was naked from the waist down, her shirt had been pulled over her head, and next to her a hastily scrawled note on a fast food bag was found. The note said quote, “I’m not stupid bitch. Jealous”. Since that day, Chapel Hill police have been tirelessly trying to find the person or persons who brutally murdered Faith Hedgepeth, who was just weeks away from her twentieth birthday. To her family Faith  symbolized love and hope, to her friends she was a constant source of positive energy and fun, and the question still lingers today. Who killed Faith Hedgepeth, and why? Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

Hello, and welcome to Crime Weekly presented by i-D. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. On this podcast, we do talk about difficult subjects. We're talking about real crimes and real people. And due to the graphic nature of some of this content, listener discretion is advised. Hey, Derek. So I just wanted to ask you a question because the other day you FaceTimed me and you were wearing a blazer, like a dress-up blazer with a t-shirt underneath it. And usually when I see you, no offense, you're wearing like a baseball cap and a sweatshirt. So was it a special occasion? Yeah. Well, as we were talking about,

I was lucky enough to be asked to moderate one of the panels for IDCon and it was a lot of fun, actually. Oh, and now that we're talking about it, IDCon, Dead of Winter, is this Saturday, February 22nd. And it's so exciting. You know, it's a convention. It's the middle of COVID quarantine, so we can't do our normal things. But ID is still bringing us all of the, you know, the same fun and speakers and all of the information you want. They're bringing together the very best experts in true crime to discuss your favorite cases. And the best part is it's completely free and completely virtual, which is awesome. Yeah, it really is cool. And I've had the opportunity to attend in person and now virtually, and they really did a nice job considering the circumstances. So you can join me as I discuss the case of the Long Island

serial killer with the hosts of the Unraveled podcast, Billy Jensen and Alexis Linkletter. If you want to check it out, again, as Stephanie just said, it's free. You can go to idcondeadofwinter.com to sign up and learn more about the cases and true crime experts that we'll be discussing at IDCon. And if you sign up, you'll receive a 30-day free trial to Discovery+. So anybody who's having reservations about Discovery+, right now, I do hear it sometimes on social. Here's an opportunity to check out a great conference and get 30 days of Discovery+, for free on us. Yeah, it's a really good deal.

I have a lot of streaming services and I use Discovery+, a lot more than I thought I would. There's so much on there. Not even just the true crime stuff, but all the other stuff. I love the HGTV stuff myself. Yeah, it's great. It really is. And again, you're getting that for free. And I've heard some of the other panels that are going to be taking place that day. They're really good. I can tell you, I can't give too much away, but the Long Island Serial Killer panel that we did with Alexis and Billy was great. We also had someone else from the special, Rob Trotta. He's a former detective from Suffolk County PD. He was on to give his insights.

So really informative panel. Strongly recommend you guys check it out. But enough about IDCon. You ready to get into the episode? I am very ready. Let's dive in. Faith Hedgepeth was born on September 26, 1992, in Warren County, North Carolina. She was part of the Haliwa-Saponi Native American tribe, and her parents, Roland and Connie Hedgepeth, divorced only a few months after she was born.

Her father, Roland, moved to Hickory, North Carolina, a four-hour drive away, and Faith remained with her mother and sister, Rolanda, who was 18 years older than Faith and who felt as if she was a second mother to her baby sister. In high school, Faith was very active, participating in many clubs and organizations, as well as cheerleading, and she was also an honor student who earned the Gates Millennium Scholarship, a program meant to promote academic excellence and provide the opportunity for outstanding minority students with significant financial need to reach their highest potential. Faith was accepted at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and she and her family

had high hopes for her future. Faith knew she wanted to help people, especially children, by becoming a pediatrician or a teacher. And once she completed college, she would become the first member of her family to hold a college degree. Faith had her whole life in front of her, and with her intelligence, excellent people skills, and big heart, she would make a positive impact on the world. But on September 6, 2012, Faith's bright light was extinguished. She was found beaten to death in the off-campus apartment she shared with her friend, Karina Rosario. Faith was naked from the waist down. Her shirt had been pulled over her head, and next to her, a hastily scrawled note on a

fast food bag was found. The note said, quote, I'm not stupid, bitch. Jealous. Since that day, Chapel Hill police have been tirelessly trying to find the person or persons who brutally murdered Faith Hedgepeth, who was just weeks away from her 20th birthday. To her family, faith symbolized love and hope. To her friends, she was a constant source of positive energy and fun. And the question still lingers today. Who killed Faith Hedgepeth. I'm glad we're doing this one. It's one of those situations where you work a lot of investigations over a career. I worked a lot of cases as a detective. And then, you know, I've had this different career after law enforcement where I've worked as a private investigator, you know, on a professional level in my own private life. And then also, I've been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to travel the country and look into cases that are a little bit more known, but still have really gone nowhere. And Faith Hedgepeth was one of those cases. For anybody who doesn't know, I worked on a show for Investigation Discovery called Breaking

Homicide. We did two seasons of the show. The first season was with my co-host, Dr. Chris Mohandy, a really respected forensic psychologist. And Faith was one of the first cases we had the opportunity to investigate. And it was a really, first cases we had the opportunity to investigate. And it was a really, really fascinating case at the time. I was looking forward to going down to North Carolina and speaking with her family and going to her apartment building and speaking with police and her friends and all that good stuff. And we got the chance to do that. So when we started getting suggestions for Crime Weekly to do this case about this woman, Faith Hedgepeth, clearly it's one that I wanted to work on with you because it's something that although I'm not one of the original investigators, I do have a personal story attached to it. It was just kind of on my list and I was going to talk about it, but I did work with Investigation Discovery on their Missing Pieces episode when they did the series, or it wasn't a

series. I think it was just a one hour special on faith, but I did work with them on their Missing Pieces episode. And I remember when I was looking over the case for that, I said, this is insane, especially for YouTube and podcasts. You like to have these additional things like surveillance footage and 911 calls and things like that. Something you can really sink your teeth into, listen to and pick apart. And this has it all. It really does. From a TV perspective, I know the producers really wanted to do this one because of the things you just laid out. It has everything from a TV perspective, I know the producers, you know, really wanted to do this one because of the things you just laid out. Like it has everything from a storytelling perspective. And then on top of that, you have faith, you know, Hedgepath, who was a beautiful young woman,

talented, you know, had aspirations to be a doctor, a pediatrician. Like, it's just like, you could make a movie out of this. You really could. And the unfortunate thing about everything you just said is just that like everybody has covered this case. Everybody has, including myself, you know, but there's not a network that hasn't, you know, broken this case down and kind of given their own spin on it. So the unfortunate thing with this investigation, and I came to find this firsthand, is there's a lot of information out there about this case. And some of it has really picked up steam where it's now kind of portrayed as fact. But when I was down there, a lot of this stuff was never confirmed by law enforcement. So the only unfortunate thing about this investigation as we talk about it

is that some of the things you listeners may have heard about this case and may say, oh, well, I remember hearing this in so-and-so's other podcast or so-and-so's YouTube video. It's not saying it's not true, but we're going to try to stick to as much of what we know to be certain as we can. We'll discuss those other things, but just keep in mind that the law enforcement has been very tight-lipped about this case they've released some things slowly but even stephanie and i were talking the other night and it wasn't until 2014 when they were almost they were forced to do it that they released documents and audio tapes and all that stuff so i think it was two yeah it was two years two years after february 2000 so um just keep that in mind you know we're trying to be objective and keep it based on things we know

to be certain, but we will obviously discuss the theories and some of the other potential evidence that's been thrown out there by numerous sources, not just YouTubers and podcasters, but like ABC News. So it's a really fascinating case. Everyone has an opinion on it and I'm really looking forward to diving into it with Stephanie. Yeah, I think even some things I read on like mainstream media network outlets and things like that couldn't be fact checked in other sources. So it's one of those cases because the police didn't release anything. There was a lot of speculation going on. And then there was a lot of even legitimate news networks running stories that weren't necessarily completely true or can't be substantiated. So

I'm interested to get into it. We're going to separate fact from fiction as much as we can. And we both have our speculations and our theories. So hang in there and we'll get started. Let's dive into it. When Faith the Hedgepath started at UNC, she was the typical college freshman, excited to embark on her next chapter in life and looking forward to living the complete college experience, which included making a lot of new friends. One of the first connections Faith made at UNC was with another student named Ty Michael McNeil, who met her during orientation. The two immediately started a relationship, even though Faith was still

somewhat involved with her high school sweetheart from back home, Alex DeMere. During Faith's freshman year, she also met and became friends with Karina Rosario, and it seemed as if they essentially became inseparable. For a time, they lived together with another student on campus, but then Faith took the spring 2012 semester off from college and Karina moved into an off-campus apartment with her boyfriend, Eric DeCoy Jones. Yeah. And that other student you mentioned was Kiera Dixon, really nice woman from the North Carolina area. I had the opportunity to speak with her during our investigation in North Carolina for break and homicide. And she was very close with Faith before her death. And

as you alluded to, they lived together for a short period of time. But we'll get into her more later. But I did want to mention her because she did give us some compelling information about Ty McNeil, who you also just mentioned, that's going to be worth mentioning later. Well, I'm not sure when Faith took the semester off if she remained in the area of the college or if she went back home. But when she returned to school and she wanted to start school again, she actually moved in with Karina Rosario. I'm not sure if at the time when Faith returned and moved in with Karina, if Eric DeCoy Jones was still living there, Karina and Eric were having some issues. Yeah. My understanding is that before Faith moved in with Karina, Eric DeCoy Jones had already moved

out of the apartment. He was still living at the complex, the Hawthorne complex, but was not living in the apartment. Yeah. So by the time Faith re the Hawthorne complex, but was not living in the apartment. Yeah. So by the time Faith reentered the picture, Karina and Eric, their relationship was already spiraling and Karina ended things. And Eric didn't seem to be happy about this. And he also seemed to believe that Faith had something to do with his girlfriend breaking up with him since it's reported that at some point between May and July of 2012, Faith told a friend that Eric hated her and that he was going to kill her if Karina didn't take him back. No, and yep, you're correct in that. And actually, Yuna Chavez, Faith's friend,

said it to me and Chris while we were in North Carolina in our interview. And it actually, you know, not everything makes the show, but that part, that part did. Yeah, Yuna Chavez will also become a very big part of this case. She plays an integral part. And what Karina had to end up doing was sort of make her separation from her ex-boyfriend a little bit more official. On July 11th, 2012, Karina Rosario issued a restraining order against Eric Takquoy Jones, citing two specific incidences of his behavior that had scared her. The first was on July 5th, when Eric had allegedly broken down Karina's bedroom door. When the two began arguing and Karina threatened to call the police, she said that Eric took her phone from her. He also broke her bathroom and closet door

and pushed her down on the floor when she attempted to get away. On July 11, 2012, at around 7.30 p.m., Eric broke into Karina's apartment right after she had gotten her locks changed and the Chapel Hill Police Department was called to respond to a domestic assault. One of the responding officers received several reports of Karina being seen with visible injuries that were reportedly inflicted on her by Eric. Several reports also stated that Eric viewed Karina's roommate and friend Faith as a barrier to his relationship with Karina because of Faith been instrumental in encouraging Karina to file this restraining order against Eric in the first place, which I mean, I think is exactly what a good friend should and would do. his booking photo for a marijuana charge. I actually went to his last known address, which was near the campus, not the apartment complex address, but a location nearby. I thought, I think it might've been a family member, but it didn't appear to be a good address.

Somebody else was living there. His name or nobody's name matching the Jones name was on the mailbox. Was the marijuana charge the only criminal record he had? That's all that we had. I didn't have access to his criminal record, but when we pulled it up, one thing that did pop up, it might even have been in like a dispatch log that we found where it showed the marijuana charge and we were able to pull his actual booking photo off one of the websites, I think that had it because we definitely had access to it. We showed it in the show. Well, even though all of this was going on, you know, it's quite dramatic, Karina and Faith seemed to still have a very strong and close relationship. On Sunday, September 2nd, after she'd finished her waitressing shift at Red Robin in Durham, North Carolina, Faith and Karina

both went to Faith's mother Connie's house to celebrate Connie's birthday. The following Tuesday on Connie's actual birthday, Faith called her mother to wish her a happy birthday, and the next day on Wednesday, Faith texted her father Roland and told him about her plans to attend a rush event at UNC's chapter of the country's oldest Native American sorority, Alpha Pi Omega. During these conversations, Faith was reportedly her usual self, and neither of her parents noticed anything off about her behavior or her demeanor. On Thursday, September 6, 2012, Faith went to the event, the rush event at the sorority, and that was around 6 p.m., and while she was there, she received a text from Ty Michael McNeil

at 6.44 p.m., and this text was basically asking her if she still wanted to hang out that day. Faith did not respond to this text, and according to Ty, the two of them were not technically in a committed relationship. It was very off and on, but he was in love with her and believed she felt the same about him. He knew that she was still in contact with her high school boyfriend, Alex. And when she went home for visits, the two of them would be together, I assume sexually. And this had been the way it was for the better part of two years. Yep, absolutely. And Ty himself, when I spoke to him, confirmed that. And so did Kiera Dixon as well. So like we've all

kind of had before, she came to college with this boyfriend back home, Alex, and they were on and off again. And apparently, at least from Ty's perspective, he knew about Alex. And according to him, from what he told me directly, that's kind of the reason that they didn't take their relationship any further. You know, according to him, she still had something going on back home and I wasn't going to do the back and forth. And, you know, I assumed he was leaving certain things out, but that was the general consensus. And then he told us in our interview that, you know, just a week prior to this, him and Faith had been together sexually and he was under the impression

that they might be back on and maybe things were not good at home with Alex. Well, that's kind of what I'm confused about because he made it seem like it was steadily off and on, right? It wasn't like, oh, we see each other and then we don't see each other for six months. It was kind of like this was a regular thing and he just knew that she had a boyfriend at home. And it was kind of like one of a regular thing. And he just knew that she had a boyfriend at home. And it was kind of like one of those, you know, different area code things. Yep. Yeah. No, you're right on. You're right on. He understood he was the other guy. And, you know, I think, I don't think he liked that. I don't think he approved of it. And that's

what I was saying earlier, where it's like, we probably all experienced some type of version of this where it's like, you know, if you've had multiple relationships, you're transitioning from one to the other. You know, I'm sure Ty wanted her to himself. And there were some things that Kiara had said to us as well when I interviewed her that would affirm that. But yeah, there was definitely a love triangle there between Alex Faith and Ty McNeil. No doubt about it. Yeah. But do you think Alex knew about Ty? It's a great question. I tried to interview Alex and he did not want to be part of the show, which is understandable.

My guess would be that he probably did because Faith and Ty were not secretive about their relationship. I don't know if they were like posting on social media, but I think there was an understanding that Faith was possibly seeing other people on campus. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, this night when Ty texted her, do you still want to hang out later? It seems like they'd already had some sort of conversation where they brought up that they might be seeing each other that day, but, um, she did not respond.

Faith did not respond to Ty at this time. And why she didn't respond is unknown. Maybe she was busy. Maybe she meant to reply, but she had forgotten. Regardless, Ty would not receive another text from Faith until right before four in the morning the following day, the morning of her murder. Yeah. And we know now a little reason why Faith didn't respond and you're going to get into it. But when we go over the timeline, she had other plans that evening. So even though her and Ty had had an interaction a week prior and he was under the impression maybe because of a previous conversation that they were going to hang out,

she had other plans that evening. And one of it started with the Davis Library. due that week, and they stayed at the library for the next several hours, returning to their apartment complex, which was called Hawthorne at the View, and it was located just about 10 minutes, a 10-minute drive away from the UNC campus. The two friends then left their apartment shortly after this, and they drove to a nightclub called The Thrill, and this nightclub was located on Rosemary Street. Now, The Thrill has often been reported as being an under-21 nightclub called The Thrill. And this nightclub was located on Rosemary Street. Now, The Thrill has often been reported as being an under-21 nightclub, but from what I could tell, it wasn't that exactly. The place seemed more like a bar, and it definitely sold alcohol. So maybe sometimes they did under-21 nights, which would make complete sense in a college town. And

since this was a Thursday, it also makes sense that Thursdays could have been their under 21 nights. I used to work at a nightclub and we would do under 21 events during the week to bring in revenue because obviously the busiest days for a nightclub and a bar are Friday and Saturday. Well, I actually did go to the Thrillz Facebook page and I spent like 20 minutes scrolling all the way down to 2012, which took forever. And I discovered that on the Thursday night Faith was there, the Thrill was hosting the Carolina cheerleaders. And they invited everyone to come and enjoy half off drinks with their favorite cheerleaders. So it appears that on this night they were serving alcohol. They probably just stamped the under 21 hands. Right. But do we believe that Karina

and Faith were drinking at this club that evening? Yeah, I think the assumption is that they were drinking not only because, you know, from a commonsensical point of view, but also it's alleged that they only stayed at the club for about 90 minutes before leaving. And the main reason they left was because Karina was complaining that she didn't feel good, presumably from, you know, maybe drinking too much or drinking something that didn't agree with her stomach. But before you continue, I want to double back because you had mentioned Davis Library. And this is one of those things where I'm going to bring it up, but I want to preface it by saying I was never able to confirm this with the police or with Faith's parents. But it's alleged that while Faith and Karina were at Davis library,

that Faith left for a short period of time to go visit a male friend. I don't know who that male friend was. I don't know if it actually even occurred. I've never spoken to Karina Rosario. So, and I would think she would be one of the few people that would know other than the male himself. But it's a really interesting piece of information that I wasn't even aware of at the time when I was in North Carolina. I learned about it afterwards and it would obviously be a significant piece of information. I've seen it reported everywhere too. And I would assume that that information would have to come from Karina. You would think, but she's never spoken publicly. So could it have gotten out from someone else? Or is it something that was said in the police reports? I would think maybe it's from

the documents that were released in 2014, but knowing about it now, as you and I are sitting here, I would definitely want to know who that person was. And I would want to know what the encounter consisted of between him and Faith at that time. It wasn't for a very long period of time. It could have been as simple as just meeting up to grab a textbook, or it could have been something as involved as something sexual in nature as well. They're young kids on college campuses. There's a wide range. And I personally would love to know what that encounter entailed. And more importantly, did the police look into it and did they vet this individual to make sure that whatever story he was telling was accurate?

Yeah, I think that it could have been in those documents, the police documents. It was a lot of pages. I think it was something like 150 pages that was released. And I tried scrolling through it. I mean, I did scroll through a lot of it, but so much of it's redacted and it drove me crazy. Just redacted one, redacted two, redacted three. Like you get so confused because these redacted one and two and three, they represent people and you can figure out who they represent,

but then it just gets so confusing when you get to redacted nine, 10, 11, and 12. So it could have been the police reports. If Karina told the police that she could have told a friend that, it could have been the police reports. If Karina told the police that she could have told a friend that it could have gotten out. I do believe that it happened because of how widely it's been reported and the police have never come out and said that it's not true. I agree. And yeah, and that's, it comes down to the point of, you know, as we're getting into

this case and as we dive into the specifics, I think everyone will understand why that encounter is so significant, right? You know, we're sitting here today because this case is unsolved, you know, and someone out there who, you know, was involved in some way, shape or form in Faith's life, even for a short period of time is the perpetrator. So, you know, everyone's a suspect until ruled out. And this individual that she met up with is no different. So I'd like to think that they did that, but it'd be even better to have that confirmed by police that this person was ruled out. Yeah. And what's interesting is Karina and Faith, they arrived at the nightclub together. They parked Karina's car in this little parking lot area. They walked to the thrill and they went inside. But when they left,

they didn't leave at exactly the same time. Yeah, you're right. That's exactly what happened. And I can't tell you how significant that was for me. There was actually surveillance video from the thrill nightclub. And I probably watched that video 100 different times. And I just kept trying to see something that maybe everyone else missed. And unfortunately, I didn't, but I remember it like it else missed. And unfortunately, I didn't. But I remember it like it was yesterday. You have Karina Rosario walking out first with a gentleman at 2.06 and 50 seconds. And then you have Faith walk out at 2.07 and like 10 seconds or 12 seconds.

So there was like a 20 second delay between the two of them leaving. And she walked out with a different individual. And apparently they sat outside for only a couple of minutes and talked to these guys. I wouldn't be able to say it's an argument because I can't hear what they're saying, but her hands are going, she's moving her hands, it looks very animated. And then the young man that Faith walks out with, we're not sure how she knows him, but it's reported that she had either met him the previous weekend at Thrill or she had just met him that evening. Yes, it was another gentleman. And it does appear that at minimum, Faith was comfortable with this person because you can see in the video that she actually has her arm on him. So at minimum, she was comfortable in the situation. But Chris and I broke down this video for days. And I guess it's all in the eyes

of the beholder, right? Because when I first looked at it, I was like, you know what? 20 seconds doesn't seem like a lot. But my perception of female friends, when they go to the club together, girlfriends, they usually stick together really close by because you never know. There's some characters in there who they don't know how to keep their hands to themselves. And I usually see the buddy system in play with female friends. And that's a good thing, by the way. I strongly recommend that. But to have them walk out separately, even though it was only a 20-second difference, to me, was there some dissension between them at that moment? Were they not on the best of terms or maybe just even at minimum annoyed with each other? And that might explain what you just laid out, which is, you know, it looked like Karina, her conversation was a little bit more dramatic. And was she venting, you know, was she venting to this guy about something that was occurring with faith? And that's why faith was kind of lagging behind talking to this other guy. Maybe she was aware that Karina was upset or maybe she was oblivious to it. But it was interesting to see Karina so excited when the whole reason behind them leaving was because she wasn't feeling well. It didn't look like a person who was presenting themselves as someone who was under the weather. Yeah. She certainly wasn't doubled over in pain or hanging

on to the guy for support. I mean, who knows? She could have just wanted to leave and said she had a stomach ache. Absolutely, absolutely. And for the record, Thrill, the building is still there, but we went to the establishment. It's under a different name now.

It's not the Thrill Nightclub anymore. Okay, so Karina and Faith, they leave together. They leave alone. They get into Karina's car and they drive away. They head back to their apartment. What happens after this is only known by two people, Karina Rosario and Faith Hedgepeth. The women returned to their apartment at around 2.30 a.m. At around 2.40 a.m., their downstairs neighbor, who was up late watching television, heard some noises coming from their apartment. This woman, the downstairs neighbor, whose was up late watching television, heard some noises coming from their apartment.

This woman, the downstairs neighbor, whose name is Joy, told police that it was a trio of noises that sounded like thumps, like a heavy book bag being dropped or an end table being turned over. Between the hours of 3 and 4 a.m., there was some activity on both Faith and Karina's cell phones as well as on Faith's Facebook page. The activity on Faith's Facebook page happened at 3.30 a.m., and the police have never released what specific activity it was. At 3.40 a.m., a text message was sent from Faith's phone to the phone of Brandon Edwards. Now, Brandon Edwards has been called the ex-boyfriend of Karina Rosario. Sometimes he's just referred to as somebody that Karina liked or was kind of messing around with, not her boyfriend. But either way, it was reported that Brandon had seen Karina

and Faith at Thrill earlier that night. Now, the text that Faith sent said, quote, Hey, B, can you come over here, please? Karina needs you more. Aha, you know. Please let her know you care. End quote. Three minutes later, another text from Faith's phone to Brandon's phone says, quote, then. And, you know, it's believed that the word then was a correction from her previous text

where she had typed aha, A-H-A. So if that's accurate, the original text would have read, Karina needs you more than you know. And that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, absolutely. That's my interpretation of it as well. So a minute after this at 3.44 a.m., Karina's phone called Brandon Edwards' phone. Another call from Karina's phone to Brandon's phone happens at 3.52 a.m. and again at 3.55 a.m. and again at 4.14 a.m. But it doesn't appear that any of these calls were ever picked up as they lasted roughly only about 30 seconds and Brandon never responded to the text sent from Faith's phone until 12 hours later at 4.16 p.m. on September 7th. And at that point,

he responded with, who's this? Suggesting that he didn't have Faith's cell phone number saved in his contacts. He just didn't know who he was. Yep, absolutely. And we really looked into this as well because there's a couple of things. First, let's go back to what you just broke down as far as the neighbor living downstairs. First and foremost, this neighbor downstairs, she's an older woman, a lot older. She's in her, I want to say in her 70s or 80s. She's old. And I didn't expect that being in a college kind of environment, but that was the case. And these thumps are significant because depending on what school you're in, you know, the girls get home at around 2.30 AM and then within 10 minutes, she hears these thumps. And as you laid out, not just thumps, like the sound of like furniture being turned over. And you and I discussed this

a little bit and you made some really great points because girls come in from a short time at the club, had a couple of drinks, you're kicking your boots or your shoes off, you're throwing your purse, whatever you're doing, you're throwing things around. And, you know, it's very possible that this was just them being loud in those moments. But my personal opinion is that this was something more than the normal thumping that this woman, I would presume, had heard in the past from these girls. That she knew the difference between, oh, that's just them walking around up there or them dancing.

And this was something where it was significant enough for her to remember it. The other side of that coin is that she's looking back on it. Police are involved. She knows someone was killed up there, and her mind plays a little bit of a trick on her where now she's embellishing what she heard because she knows what transpired up there, and she's trying to be helpful. And I don't have to lay it out. We know why that's so significant, right? If we're to believe that those thumps were the actual attack on Faith, that's at 240.

And that means that everything else you laid out after that involving Brandon, you know, the text message from Faith's phone was written by someone else, more than likely her killer. And we know at that point, it's believed that there were only two people in the apartment, Faith and Karina. So again, I'm not going out on a far reach here and saying, if we had definitive proof that the attack occurred at 240, Karina's the killer, right? But we don't, but we don't. And that's why we're still talking about this case today, because we don't know if that's when the attack occurred. And if it occurred later, after Karina left, it's a whole different ball game. But just to go into what you said about

the text message between specifically Faith and Brandon, it's interesting because the response the next day when he writes to Faith, who's this, is compelling to me because that's highly suggestive that although he was close with Faith, he wasn't that close. And he clearly didn't have her number saved in his contacts. And it makes me wonder a couple things. Did Faith have his phone number saved in her contacts? Or did she get it from Karina? Or is it possible that, again, if we're to believe she was killed at 240, Karina texted Brandon from her phone, not knowing that Brandon didn't have her number. I mean, to be fair, it's even possible that the

murder didn't happen at 240 and Karina texted Brandon from Faith's phone because, you know, she wanted to kind of set the scene for when she would then call him about a minute later. So if he got that text and he was like, oh, Karina really needs me and then she called, maybe he's going to pick up the phone. We don't know what was going on between Brandon and Karina at that point. Were they on the outs? Was he not talking to her? Did something happen at the club earlier where they had argued, Brandon and Karina, and that's

why she was trying to get a hold of him? We don't really know what was going on there. What I find odd about Brandon's text the next day is because it's after four o'clock in the afternoon when he texts back. And, you know, he was a UNC student. This was, you know, you know, pretty localized area. And by this time, Faith was already found dead. And it was all over the news. And, you know, it was all over the news and it was all over campus and it was a school day. So I just have a hard time believing that he'd seen her the night before at the club. He was close with Karina, at least. We don't know had a late night the night before and didn't wake up till two in the afternoon and was rolling around his bed and really his only connection to faith might have been karina and she was preoccupied again i i see your face i'm just go ahead say what you're gonna say you don't think he's gonna have like a crap ton of texts you know from like his friends and people who

know that he knows karina like dude you know your girl's roommate got killed last night. Like, you don't think that, and those are going to be the more relevant and sooner in his phone. He's going to see those sooner. So I agree. But the thing is he wouldn't have known that this text message was from faith. It could be, and that's why he asked who's this. Cause it could be from a dude. It could be from one of her other friends. So do you get what I'm saying? He didn't know it was from Faith because he didn't have her in the phone. So that could explain that where he might have known that Faith was killed. But in addition to all those text messages that you're talking about, he might have got, he gets this random text message from a number he doesn't recognize talking about Karina. And now he's even more

intrigued because of what he learned. So that's a possible explanation, but I agree. It's definitely, it's perplexing. And we both agree that it hinges on one thing here, right? Like if we were able to determine definitively what time Faith was killed, it's a whole new ball game. And the time of death in this case, you know, it hasn't been determined down to that hour. They just know it happened within a few hours before she was found. So, you know, we don't know the exact minute that it occurred. And that hour difference, that two hour difference is a whole different case. So that's why we're sitting here discussing it. That's why the case is unsolved because of that time, right? There's a real possibility that everything we're going to talk about,

and we've already talked about as far as text messages being sent from a face phone and her activity, that it was actually her. And if it was actually her, then that's why we're in a position right now where her killer is probably still on the loose somewhere. Yeah. I mean, there's a possibility that it was her, that's for sure. But I mean, she sends another text message that night. And this text message goes out at 3.52 a.m. And this is the response to Ty McNeil. If you remember, Ty was the guy that Faith had been seeing on and off, you know, for the past two years. According to Ty, like you said, they just slept together the previous week. And he'd also texted her earlier that evening to

ask if Faith still wanted to get together that day, and that was a text she'd never responded to. Now, the text she sent at 3.52 a.m. did not acknowledge Ty's earlier question of whether she wanted to get together or not. It was way past the time, so that might be why. But it was quite lengthy, and it said, quote, I know you're probably sleeping, but I just wanted to let you know that I love you. Not a day goes by that you don't cross my mind. I know it will be like this for the rest of my life because of what we've been through together. Besides that, I still feel the same and love you the same. Sorry for being in my feelings, but hey, without feelings, we wouldn't have life. Sometimes I feel like you are my life. End quote.

Yeah. When I first learned about this text message from Ty McNeil, we were on camera and I was interviewing him and he pulled out the text messages. And it was a tough read because if you believe that this text message was written by faith, this was one of her, probably her final moments, some of the things that was going through her head while she was, you know, at home. So that's tough. But then you step back and you separate emotion and you think about it. You just spoke about the text message that was sent to Brandon Edwards from Faith's phone at 3.40 a.m. So this text message was only sent 12 minutes later after that text message to some, you know, some guy who she, you know, knew, but was only, you know, acquaintances with, as opposed to someone she has a relationship with. So my takeaway was two things. There was a lot of

action happening around three 40, you know, the Facebook activity from face phone. Then right after that, you have the text message from face phone toPhone. Then right after that, you have the text message from FacePhone to Brandon. Then right after that, you have the text message to Ty. And so you could look at that and go, man, that looks like somebody got her phone and was trying to create the illusion that she was still alive, right? That's one theory. Then the other side of the token is, well, maybe she was watching the struggle that her friend was having with her boyfriend, Brandon, and it made her appreciate Ty a little bit more. And she got in her feelings for a second, as she said in the text message to him and, you know, decided to reach out to someone she cares about because she was happy. She had someone who cared about her where Karina couldn't even get Brandon to pick up her phone calls. Yeah, really good point. And the whole thing about all that action happening, I mean, I would call it like a flurry of action because they got home at about 2.30 and all of this stuff

doesn't start happening until over an hour later. And according to Karina, when they first got home, she went into the bathroom and she was throwing up. And then she said Faith came in and gave her like, you know, a little trash bin to throw up in and then Faith decided to go to bed. stuff's happening, technically Faith would have been asleep already because Karina said she didn't feel like going to sleep right away. So she sat on the bathroom floor and just like called people and texted people. Yeah. And you brought up another interesting point, which is there's a lull, right? There's a lull between the thumps, you know, I put them in the air quotes, the thumps hurt around at 240. And then about an hour later, there's this big flurry, as you described it, which is accurate, of activity. And from what we know, and again, this is what sucks about not having everything. From what we know, there was no activity on Faith's phone between 230 and 340, which that may not be true, but we

don't have the police reports. But from what we know, there wasn't anything. And then all of a sudden it ramps up and you wonder why is it's because the perpetrator had time to think like, I got to create an alibi or is it just coincidence? But it is at the, at the least very, very interesting. And I will say this one thing that I was determined to find out when I was down there and I was, I failed miserably was whether or not Faith had a passcode on her phone. Because that would be significant because there would only be a few people, if anyone, who would have access to that passcode. Maybe Karina because they were so close. But if she had a passcode on her phone, and I did ask Yuna about it, she believed she did, but she wasn't certain. If she had a passcode on her phone, I did ask Yuna about it. She believed she did, but she wasn't certain.

If she had a passcode on her phone, then it might be more suggestive that it was in fact Faith who conducted this activity or she had a login password for her Facebook and it wasn't just automatically opened when she clicked on the app. That was something that ran through my mind. I really wanted to nail that down. But again, I asked police about it. I asked friends about it. No one could give me a straight answer. Which is odd. It's odd, but the police know. The police know the answer to it. I mean, I was trying to pick their brains on camera and I was even trying to butter them up off camera. They just were a steel trap. They wouldn't give me anything. It was really frustrating because usually I can pull the cop to cop stuff off camera, a wink and a nod. They weren't giving me anything. They had been

around the block too many times with ABC and everyone else under the sun and Lieutenant LeHue. She might've been a captain at the time now, but Lieutenant LeHue, she wasn't giving me anything, no dice. Either that or Chief Blue either. They wouldn't give me anything. So when you asked her friends and her family if she had a passcode, did they just not know or did they not want to tell you? No, no, they didn't know. Like Yuna believed she did. I asked Yuna and Yuna because Yuna had a lock on her phone.

I said, oh, it reminds me. Did Faith, did you guys all have locks on her phone? She goes, I believe she did. I believe she did. I even said to her, did you guys share passcodes? And she's like, no. But again, she was living with Karina, faith-wise. So maybe, maybe, I don't honest. That's how my nine year old son figured out what my passcode is. One day he just took my phone and opened it and I was like, how did you know my passcode? And he's like, I've watched you put it in. When you live with someone, you're with them day in, day out. You don't remember to be guarded about these sorts

of things. You're in your own home. You feel safe to just enter your passcode. It's fair. I'll tell you though, it would be interesting to know for certain, wouldn't it? So much about this case would be interesting to know for certain, wouldn't it? So much about this case would be interesting to know for certain. Agreed. All right, let's take a quick break before we continue, because we still have some phone activity to discuss, but this time it involves Karina's phone. So after this, after this flurry of activity, there's no activity on Faith's cell phone or social media, as far as we know. And once again, that could not be the case. But I just find it

hard to believe the police would release certain information, certain phone calls, things like that, and not specify others, especially if it was in this time period, but who knows. And then according to Karina, after Faith went to bed, Karina decided to leave for the evening, even though she'd been feeling sick earlier at the club. So Karina called a friend of hers, Jordan McCrary. He was a UNC soccer player who she had had a sexual relationship with. Once again, this is not a boyfriend so much as, you know, just somebody that she's, you know, seeing and kind of messing around with. So she asked him to come pick her up, which he did at around 4.27 a.m. And at this point, he drove with her back to his own apartment and they stayed there for the rest of the night. Now, the strange thing was when Karina left the

apartment early on the morning of September 7th, she failed to lock the door behind her. Yeah, she failed to lock the door, which again, something I really want to dive into when we look at Karina as a potential suspect, because there's some things about that that don't add up to me personally. But as far as Jordan's concerned, yeah, he was a great soccer player for UNC. I did some research on him. He was really, really good and popular guy. And we tried to speak to Jordan. I really wanted to talk to him for the obvious reasons. He didn't want to speak to us. However, his roommate, who he was still close with, agreed to talk to us through text message and answer a couple of questions while we were out in North Carolina. And he couldn't confirm that the times, but he did state that by the time he got home, the roommate that is, he was working at a club that night, that Jordan's door was shut. And that usually meant that they were either sleeping or had company. Yeah. But that to me, that timeline didn't really add up because I forget exactly

what it was, but he said he, so the roommate of Jordan was at work that night and he made it sound like he had to, you know, settle the cash register. And it's like, what, two to thirty three. And then he went home. But she, you know, Karina doesn't call Jordan to pick her up until four twenty seven a.m. So, yeah, technically this roommate would have come home before jordan and karina arrived back So maybe at this point when the roommate came home jordan was in bed And then he got the text from karina or the call and he left and went to go pick her up But it's possible and the roommate also says that jordan never never confirmed

Exactly what time it was right? He never confirmed what time it was. He He was very vague with us. It almost felt like Jordan was giving him permission to say certain things and making sure he didn't say certain things. To your point just now, you're definitely right. That could be the case he got there home before Karina, or it could just be a misinterpretation on Chris and I's part because first and foremost, I don't know how long he was at the club after hours. It might've been one of those clubs that says they close at two, but really closes at three. They just shut off the lights. Wait, did he work at a club?

It sounded like he worked at a club as a manager or security guy. Yeah. That's what the impression I got from... I'm paraphrasing our text conversations, but I believe he was either a bouncer or a manager at a club. Not the thrill, not the thrill, by the way. And he got home very late. And again, just the way he said it to us was that everyone was kind of tucked in for the night when he got home. But again, it's very possible. It's very possible he beat him there and then just didn't hear them come in.

But he did state that they spoke the next day about Karina being there. And Jordan confirmed that she was, in fact, at his place that morning. Yes. And we know she was because the next morning when Karina woke up, she attempted to call Faith, allegedly to get a ride home since they both had class that day. But when Faith didn't pick up, Karina called another friend named Marisol. And Karina explained to Marisol that, you know, I need a ride. I've been trying to call Faith. I can't get a hold of her. I'm concerned. And, you know, well, that's what Marisol said. And I got this from, you know, your Breaking Homicide episode on Faith's case. And you actually got to speak to Marisol in person about this day.

Yeah, it's a tough one. Took a lot of convincing to get her to do an interview with us in person. She's still, understandably so, very emotional about this case. But for what it's worth for our listeners out there, because they may not have seen the special, not for my own reasons, you should definitely watch the Breaking Homicide special. I was really proud of the work we did in that case. But if you don't watch it, what I can tell you from all my years with experiences, I found Marisol to be very credible and very believable. So anything she had to say about the case, although she was emotional, I took it at face value because she doesn't appear to have any reason for lying and she didn't appear to be there because she wanted to be on camera. I can tell you for certain it took a lot of convincing to get her to do

anything for us. Yeah, she was very emotional. It was hard to watch at times, but I thought it was an excellent episode. Actually, I really enjoyed it. It was well-paced and there was a lot of information. But Marisol was actually friends with both Faith and Karina, and she referred to them as being like her little sisters. She said they were all very close. They spent a lot of time together. Marisol also said that Faith and Karina were very close. So on the morning of

September 7th, Karina reached out to her and said, you know, she was worried that Faith wasn't answering calls or texts. And she asked Marisol if she'd heard from Faith or if she could reach out to Faith to see if she would pick up. Now, this is a little, I've never really, and I haven't talked to you about this before, but why would Karina be calling Faith and texting Faith, not getting a response? Why would she think that Marisol would get a response? Was it because they'd had an argument and maybe Faith was mad at her or she thought Faith would be mad at her and that's why she wasn't answering the phone? What do you make of that? You can take that a couple of ways, right? I mean, again, it all is about perspective.

It doesn't make sense that she would call Marisol to ask her to call her own roommate. I agree with you a hundred percent. And so it could just be a little bit of just a- I need a ride. I need a ride. So I'm going to segue with, start with that and then segue into, Hey, I'm here with this guy, but he really doesn't want to bring me home now. You know, he does. He wants, you know, we've all, we've all been there. Right. And he doesn't really want to bring me home. So I need a ride home. And this is kind of my segue into it, or it's the other side of it where she knows what she's going to be walking into and she wants someone there as a witness. Well, that's exactly what she got, if that's what she wanted, because Marisol,

you know, did try to call Faith and didn't get a response. But she called Karina back and she was like, well, you know, I'm available. I can come pick you up. And so Marisol picked up Karina. And when they arrived at the apartment complex, they saw that Faith's car was parked there. And so Marisol told Karina, you know, Faith must have just overslept. And Marisol also said that if Karina wanted, they could go in together and wake her up so that they could get ready. And then Marisol would bring them to campus so they wouldn't have to ride the bus. Karina agreed that this was a good idea. And the two women entered the apartment building together.

And when they got inside Karina's apartment, they both started yelling Faith's name, you know, trying to wake her up so she could get ready. But then they got to the bedroom and they saw Faith. She was partially wrapped in a comforter from the bed. She was half on the bed and half off of it. And she'd been brutally murdered. There was blood everywhere. Yeah, blood on the pillows, blood on the comforter. It was a tough scene for anyone to see, especially someone who had a personal relationship with Faith. This was a really small

apartment, by the way. I got to kind of see the layout and there's only one bedroom in there and they could have yelled for a second, but they walked in the door and immediately, almost immediately that you just go to your left, the bedrooms right there. And it's right after like the little living room area and they would have, they would have seen her. So, and I will say this for anyone who's out there, like, you know, Derek, did you push her on this? Cause they're probably asking it. I pushed Marisol on the idea, like, you know, looking in hindsight, was there any ever a moment where she felt like Karina was trying to guide her? Like, and what I mean by that is like trying to set her up to volunteer to come inside, you

know, like trying to manipulate the situation where, you know, Karina was like, oh, you know, I guess I'll go up there by my, I don't know if anyone's in there. I'm kind of, you know, nothing. And Marisol was adamant about the fact that like, it was all her, like she was just being nice and, you know, offered without any inclination from Karina that that's what Karina wanted. So either she's telling the truth or Karina is a very good manipulator. It's one of the two. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I was thinking that too, because, you know, there's, there's going to be times where we are going to look at Karina as a suspect because I mean, yeah, it's like when a woman gets murdered and you look at her husband or her boyfriend first, like the person that lives with her, the person that's closest to her and has the most access to her. So we are going to look at Karina in that light sometimes. But in this case, if everything that Marisol is saying is accurate, Karina wasn't, you know, cajoling her to come up there to be a witness or a participant in like her finding the body of her friend. Absolutely. That's the impression that Marisol gave me for sure. So at 1101 a.m., Karina called 911. And when the police arrived, they found Faith with her black shirt pulled up over her head. It was a T-shirt and she was naked from the waist down. On the center of the bed, there was a paper bag from a fast food restaurant with this message written on it.

And that's the message that I mentioned in the teaser where it said, I'm not stupid, bitch, jealous. And, you know, just a strange kind of message to write. But the whole scene is strange, right? So this is a white bag. And I looked at all the pictures of it and the bag looked as if it had been crumpled up at one point, you know, like you would do if you got food from a restaurant and you came home and ate it and then crumpled the bag up to throw it out. But then obviously somebody had at one point sort of smoothed it out so that they could write on it. Now, the odd thing about this bag, besides the cryptic message written on it, is the fact that although this was a very bloody

crime scene, there was not a drop of blood on the bag. The bag was analyzed by a handwriting expert, and I mean, I think it's been analyzed by multiple handwriting experts, but this specific person believed that the message was written by someone who was experiencing a roller coaster of emotions, someone who had written it with their non-dominant hand sort of to disguise their handwriting. And I think it was the person who was on Breaking Homicide. He said he believes that the writer had been a woman due to certain language, like the words bitch and jealous. Yep. That was Tony Iantosca. Yeah. The note, the note was fascinating and, and, and you just laid it out perfectly. The note was found in the bedroom and there was blood spatter everywhere.

And yet not a single drop on this bag, which is significant, which suggests that the note was added after the fact was brought into the room after the homicide had occurred. And we did, we had an expert come in, Tony Iantosca, and he, you know, as you just said, there was a roller coaster of emotions. This appeared to be someone who was enraged. Their handwriting wasn't consistent at some points. It was very like thick and, you know, the person was pushing down on the pen. At other points they were writing lightly. And he did. He suggested that in his opinion, it was more likely that the phrasing being used would have been written by a female. I wasn't completely convinced of that. I mean, it based on some of the other interviews Lieutenant LeHue did with other media outlets, that the bag was from a popular restaurant called Time Out. And it's believed that Faith went to that restaurant the night before her murder, And that's where the bag was from. So she came home with the food they ate. The bag was probably in the trash or left on a counter or something. And the suspect, like you said, uncrumpled the bag and then wrote on it. But one thing I'll

pose to you now, and I'll leave it open-ended the question, but the thing that struck me about the bag was not only the bag and the handwriting itself, it was the fact that whoever wrote this note killed Faith and then felt that they had enough time to find something to write on, a writing instrument, and then to write out this note and leave it on the bed before fleeing the area. And that might not seem very significant, but if this murder happened in the heat of passion and this was a spontaneous thing or whatever it may be, and this was someone who wasn't supposed to be at the residence, then they don't know if someone's going to walk in at any moment and they have to get out of there as soon as possible. So to take the time to write that note before fleeing the area, that seems significant to me. Or if it was somebody who didn't know her, which is a theory, and I personally don't prescribe to this theory, but if it was somebody who didn't know her, they walked in, saw a one bedroom apartment with one girl living there and just assumed she lived alone and thought

they didn't have to rush. Okay. So yeah. And so you're giving the theory like just completely random person. Okay. And we both, I'll put that out there right now. We both don't prescribe to that theory at all because to get up the stairs, first and foremost, you know, Faith's apartment was in the very back of an apartment complex and you would have to know a lot of things about Faith and to randomly pick this apartment to check. And you wouldn't even know the door was unlocked unless you went up there and hand checked it. So I definitely hear the theory. And like you just said, we hand checked it. So I definitely hear the theory. And like you just said, we both don't agree with that.

I think it's more likely that this person felt comfortable enough to write this letter because for some reason they knew no one else was coming back to the apartment in a reasonable amount of time. And they would still have time to get out of there before being discovered. So it would have to be somebody who knew that Karina wasn't there or Karina herself. That's my thought. Well, I do want to talk a little bit about this bag because when, what was it, Tony Iantosa? Iantosca. Iantosca. Yeah, it's an easy one. When Tony said that he thought that it was a female writer. Once again, I mean, I don't think based on the words bitch and jealous that it might be a female, maybe, maybe jealous, because I can't see a man saying, you know, you're jealous to a woman. You know,

it just doesn't seem like language that men use with women, but I've heard men call women bitches all the time. So that's not necessarily something that discounts. It was a female writing it, but I think it is, I don't know, I guess important that they tried to hide their handwriting. Yeah. And I will say this in Karina's defense, because I know I'm inferring some things because it's common sense in a lot of ways. I will say this. If Karina killed Faith and went through all this trouble to create this alibi that she was still awake and she was texting other men and she wanted it to look like a sexual assault, right? Like declothed her and took off her pants.

Why would you then throw a paper bag on the bed that suggests it was a female who is upset with her? Right. It kind of contradicts the whole the whole staging. So I'll give I'll give Karina that for sure, because that didn't line up with the theory that Karina staged this to look like a sexual assault. That that bag would be unnecessary. The bag would be unnecessary if Karina staged it to look as if anybody that didn't know Faith went into that apartment. Right. Because if you don't know Faith went into that apartment, right? Because if you don't know faith, why are you leaving such a personal and angry message for her? Completely agree. Yeah. It's definitely something where it makes you question some things for sure,

because it doesn't align with any theory perfectly, right? I mean, it can be interpreted and kind of manipulated to fit certain scenarios, but it's a, it's a little bit of a, it leaves a little bit of a question mark for sure. Yeah. And the message itself, since, you know, it's written on a paper bag, there's no punctuation depending on you read this message. It could mean completely different things. I'm not stupid, bitch, jealous. I'm not stupid, bitch, jealous, you know, like punctuation is so important and not even sure what this message would possibly mean. So this bag note has always stuck with me because much like the Ramsey ransom note, it doesn't really fit in anywhere. It doesn't make sense in so many ways. The message itself

is unclear. It's also unclear why someone would leave a note for a person they just murdered since Faith was dead. Who was the note intended for? Faith wouldn't be able to read the message since she was no longer alive. Now, some people speculate that the note could have been completely unrelated, like maybe it was there from a different day or it was like a joke between friends and it just happened to be there. But that doesn't follow because this bag note was placed in the middle of a crime scene and it didn't have any blood on it. So the only reasonable explanation is it didn't have blood on it because the bag was put on the bed after Faith's murder. So who did her killer write the note for? That's what was staged.

Yeah. I mean, it's tough. It's a tough way to look at it because clearly if they killed Faith, they already knew she wasn't going to be able to read it, like you said, or the individual felt like they just beat her really bad and she would get the note when she eventually woke up from being unconscious. If that's I don't see how you would look at that crime scene and not know that you killed her, though. I think that's really that's a hard one to believe. Yeah, this was a savage and brutal attack. I mean, multiple, you know, hits. And well, we're going to get into that. You've read the autopsy. I have. And we conducted numerous experiments to see how brutal it actually was. And it's it's I mean, a fracture of skull. I mean, it's significant. Now, this isn't often reported, but near Faith's body, there was a used tampon. And police also found a Bacardi red bottle and a wine bottle that they took into police custody as evidence. Now, according to Faith's autopsy performed the following day, Faith had multiple lacerations and bruising to her head and face, and her skull had been fractured. I believe there was also bruising on her arms and legs.

Now, due to the proximity of the Bacardi red bottle to Faith's body, as well as the fact that there was blood found on the bottle, police concluded that it had been the murder weapon. Now, at first, when I was watching Breaking Homicide, you guys were kind of going back and forth, like, maybe this isn't the murder weapon, wouldn't it have broken? And when that was happening, I was saying to myself, like, no, that battle wouldn't have broken because Bacardi is all I drank in college. So much so that I never want to touch another drop. And those bottles are unbreakable. They're so sturdy.

I mean, we would toss them from across the room into like the recycling bin and it would hit the wall. It never went in the recycling bin. Sometimes it would hit the floor. Those went in the recycling bin sometimes it would hit the floor those things never broke yeah yeah and it was it was you know you have some levity on set and i can tell you that behind the scenes this was like the biggest debate on set with like me and chris but also the director and then all the producers and like even like the camera guys like we were all like weighing in on it between like scenes because it's like half the room believed no way and half the room was in the camp of like yep absolutely could be the case and chris and i were like getting in heated debates over it because he didn't think anyway we were talking about this like dinner like later those nights and i'm like dude i'm telling

you the bottle would 100 be capable of fracturing someone's skull. The bottom of those, those bottles, they're like all glass. It's just like, it seems like they just put all the weight of the glass in the bottom to keep it from tipping over. And so in the show, which you saw part of the reason we went to like these,

these force experts, I'll just call them that these, they actually focus on accident reconstruction, but they have the instruments to measure pressure and how it would affect the body. And because there was such a dissension between us about the bottle itself, that's why we went and did all these experiments. And I'm so glad we did. I felt like Mythbusters. It was a great portion of the show. I think it did so much more than for you guys to just say like, oh yeah, you know, it definitely was the bottle. It could do it. To actually see, you know, they used the dummy. And it was, oh my God, it was so hard to watch because you just imagine this girl, she's 19. She's tiny. She's unsuspecting that this is about to happen. And this is how she died. And it wasn't an easy death. It wasn't painless. It was horrific and savage, unnecessary. But you see that as you're doing

this experiment. And I think it really, it hits home. Like it makes you empathize way more with the victim. And then it was almost like a vice that you put the bottle in and that was supposed to measure the pressure. Right. So the first thing we did was measure how much force would be needed to fracture a skull. And then could that force be generated by the speed of the bottle? And don't quote me on these numbers, but they had said it would only take like 12 to 14 miles per hour. You would only have to swing the bottle at 14 miles per hour in order to fracture the skull. And in the show, you see them swinging the bottle and it was at like 24 miles per hour. So it was like half that. So we concluded not only could the bottle inflict that the force needed to fracture the skull, it could do like two or

three times that amount. And the speed needed could have been inflicted by a male or female. And it didn't matter body size, anyone could do it. It wasn't a lot of force at all. And then the second experiment that you talked about was, okay, now we know the amount of force needed to inflict the fracture. Will the bottle sustain its integrity under that amount of pressure? And again, we had the bets going, but it superseded the amount needed by like twofold. Yeah. So basically when you say, is it going to retain its integrity?

You mean, is the bottle going to break under a certain amount of pressure? And it was 500, 500. Yeah. Four or 500 pounds. Yeah. You were paying attention. Look at that. Four to 500 pounds.

And it went way past that mark. Way past it. And even as we were talking, the bottle was still under pressure and it just like, it never, it never even cracked. Did it ever crack? No, we pulled it out. We pulled it out and it was fine. We did use other bottles, other experiments to try different things out because we're working under the assumption that if the bottle was used, it would have been the bottom of the bottle that made contact with their skull and the perpetrator would have been holding the handle. And we did some experiments where it's like, okay, the bottom would have survived, but would the handle itself, which is a more narrower piece of glass,

would that have snapped off by one of the hits? And that wasn't the case either. What? Yeah. You could have done like four or five blows because remember, the bottle was intact when police found it. So if the bottle is the sole weapon here, not only did the perpetrator strike her in the head multiple times with that bottle, but the bottle never, you know, snapped at any point. So how would they have been holding the bottle to cause that damage? Probably by the handle. Right. And so we, we confirmed that. Yeah, it could be done where

the swinging motion with the speed needed to fracture the skull would not snap off the bottle. Oh, the neck. Okay. I get it. So you don't mean that they would use the neck portion as a weapon. You mean holding it, would it break from just the pressure of holding it? Of holding it. Exactly. Cause that, that, you know, the weakest point is what the, obviously you're looking for the point where it would actually break down. It would be in the neck area and that's probably what they would hold the bottle by. And that held up as well. I have a feeling that all of these additional experiments you guys did were just to have fun by yourselves, like little boys. It was interesting. I love science and I

love technology. I say it all the time on the show. So I am absolutely fascinated by it when you can take a type of technology that's not intended for this purpose and reapply it. I don't know if we'll talk about it because I'm going to be going to trial for it, but we solved the murder case in Seattle and I decided to bring in a biomechanical engineer to recreate a fall because it was believed that our victim might've suffered from a seizure based on her bruising. And we brought in a biomechanical engineer from the University of Washington to prove how these bruises couldn't have been sustained by a natural fall. And again, these individuals were not used in any type of murder case before.

They were mainly there to see accidental falls and what they meant for workman's comp issues and stuff. And when I told them this was for a murder, they were excited to work on it. And it's actually something being used now at trial. So I love when you can think outside the box. And that's why I love doing these cases with you and having listeners, because there may be someone out there right now who's listening to this podcast, who has no investigative experience, but has a specialty in some area that I or you haven't even thought about yet. And they have a method or a scientific experiment that could apply in this case and move the ball forward. And that's so exciting to me. And that's what

makes me want to do these types of cases because we're not just sensationalizing them. We're putting them out there because maybe someone who hasn't heard about our case has something in their toolbox that can actually help. I even look at it as, you know, even to go like deeper and more general than that, maybe somebody's listening to this and they've never thought about going into law enforcement or going into anything like that because they don't think they'd make a good investigator or a police officer or whatever. But they're listening to the science aspect and they're saying, well, maybe that sounds awesome. I love science. I'm really strong in that area. Maybe I want to go into forensics because that's what we need, strong people who are passionate about what they do and can think outside of the box. Completely agree. Love it. I love when I

have someone who works underneath me in law enforcement, like when I was a sergeant, that just thinks differently. I don't want the people that think like everybody else, because we're all going to come to the same conclusion. I want the person that questions the question. Well, you've got that with me. you know. I know I do. I know that. I'm the worst for that. My husband's always saying to me, like, are you just trying to like be annoying? Are you trying to play devil's advocate with everything? And I said, I mean, there was maybe a point in my life where I purposely did it and now it just comes naturally. I know everything and I need to question everything. It's true. I'm with your husband well i do want to talk about uh the dna found at the scene because this is a big

a big issue i think we spent like 20 minutes talking about just the dna on the phone the other day even though we didn't mean to to go into it um so there was dna found at the scene dna that did not belong to faith or Karina, but it's always been very unclear about what exactly this DNA was. Now, it's often been reported in the media that it was semen. And you said you did speak to the Chapel Hill Police Department and they were able to confirm that it was semen? Nope. That's the whole hang up here is it's been heavily reported that it's semen. But I can tell you firsthand, as I sit here right now, I asked them specifically, was the DNA used to create this phenotype that you're going to talk about? Was it semen? And they said they wouldn't tell me.

So that's the holdup for me because it's been widely reported by everyone. So I believe that it was in fact semen and that's why they're so caught on it. But I can tell you that at least I it's never been confirmed to me by anyone in a position of authority for this case. And it's never been confirmed. Yeah. By police. I mean, I've seen it reported in articles like crazy, but I mean, I can't imagine why any of these media outlets would have more information than like, say you did when you went on breaking homicide and you're sitting with the actual police and talking to them, especially if they'd already released that information to other media outlets.

And what makes this so frustrating is because, once again, it is often also reported that Faith was sexually assaulted, but there's no actual concrete evidence of that. Am I correct? You're absolutely correct. Yeah. And again, to double back to the semen real quick, you know, it's inferred in a lot of ways because I've watched the other specials because that's part of my job to look into it. And like in the ABC News special, they say right in the special, you know, semen was found and taken off of her body and used to develop this phenotype. And then it cuts to the

interview with the ABC reporter and Lieutenant Letheu. So it seems like it's coming directly from her and maybe it is. I just have to be careful in what I say that it wasn't confirmed to me. And now in regards to the sexual assault, again, I've seen interviews where Letheu confirms that she believes Faith Hedgepeth was sexually assaulted, but we had access to the autopsy report. We brought in Dr. Sarah Weck, who is considered one of the top pathologists in the world. And he says right in the report, just reading it, that there was no signs of sexual assault. So I don't know where that's coming from, but that's the whole point of not having

the full story and police keeping things from us where they have more information than we do. So I hate to say it, but I have to defer to LaHue in this one because although Sarah Weck is telling me something based on what he's reading, she has the whole story and he only has part of it. Yeah, but you've never heard it directly from her, correct? Or did she say that in the special? She said it in the special. I saw it with my own eyes. She said that they asked her, do you believe Faith was sexually assaulted? And she says, yes. But this is something else that we had spoken about earlier on the phone. It's very difficult, I think, sometimes in a case like this to distinguish sexual assault from sexual activity. Correct. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. And she was

sexually, we know she was sexually active at least a week prior to this, you know, and I'm assuming maybe before, you know, maybe even more recent than that. So I don't want to get into the terminology because I'll screw it up. But the layman's terms with Sarawak said there was no signs of sexual assault from the report that was written. But the semen, if it was in fact semen, whatever this DNA is, it's definitely significant because the police have said so. And they had this phenotype developed and they have it out there and they believe that this DNA potentially belongs to the killer. So whatever it is, it's significant. I don't think they would be hanging their hat on it if it wasn't. Another thing about the DNA or the alleged semen is it's reported as

being found in different places. So according to ABC Channel 11, which was a North Carolina local station, they actually got that semen from a sexual assault kits. And this very well could be, that makes perfect sense. But Investigation Discovery, they also covered this case and they reported that the semen was found next to Faith, not on her, which it adds to the confusion. That's the problem. And I prefaced it at the beginning of the show, right?

I said, listen, there's a lot of things we're going to discuss, but some of it has been portrayed by so many people. It's kind of discerned from fact from fiction at this point, because it's kind of the telephone game, right? But the reason we're doing it this way is because if this case is solved next week and it comes out that there wasn't semen, we're going to at least have a clear conscience in saying, hey, listen, we prefaced it by saying it may not be semen. We didn't know. It was never confirmed to our eyes or ears. So we're just covering ourselves and to try to be as accurate as possible that it could be semen. It may not. We don't know if it was found on her body or near her body, which I think we can both agree is

extremely important. So the fact that we don't know is why I don't like to speculate too far as far as the DNA is concerned. But I can tell you this, the fact that this don't know is why I don't like to speculate too far as far as the DNA is concerned. But I can tell you this, the fact that this DNA was found on or near Faith and hasn't been linked to anyone yet, and they've done a lot of analysis, they've tested against hundreds of people. The fact that they don't have a match yet, this is a question that they need to answer before moving forward in this case. They have to identify this

person, see what their relationship was to Faith, and find out how their DNA got into that apartment before they can go after anyone or rule anybody out. Yes. And so this is obviously, it's male DNA that was established. And something interesting that I found in People Magazine, and People Magazine has a pretty big true crime presence at this point, and they do very extensive articles. But the police located the pen that they believe was used to write the note, the note that was written on the paper bag, and they swabbed it and they found DNA. And the DNA found on the pen was a match to the DNA found on or next to Faith's body. And this is, it's kind of crazy to me. Like this kind of does bring me back to like that Ramsey ransom note, you know, how it just doesn't fit in. And why would somebody go to these lengths to, you know, maybe not leave their

fingerprints on the murder weapon or, you know, anywhere else in the apartment, but then they just pick up a pen with their bare hands and write this ransom note with it, or not ransom note, but this paper bag threat note. No, you make some great points. And the only thing I'll say about the bottle, and again, without having access to it myself, the bottle was covered in blood, dried blood. And so it's possible that the individual, when they were holding the bottle, they were holding it more with their smearing of the prints themselves. And that coupled with blood being on their hands, probably as they're assaulting her from the cast off, it may have made it very difficult to one, extract their DNA from the bottle because you had face DNA all over it.

And to separate the two is difficult, although it can be done. And then secondly, to get any type of print off that bottle with how it was covered in blood may have been difficult as well. So the pen and the paper would have made it a little bit easier to extract DNA. Yeah. But I mean, I'm going to assume that they fingerprinted the apartment, right? And most likely found fingerprints there of people who should have been there. Faith, uh, Korea, maybe even Eric Takoi Jones, uh, Brandon, you know, um, the tie people who had been there. So any sort of like outlier fingerprints anywhere in the apartment, they would have known. So I assume the person wore gloves or

was one of those people. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and again, it's one of those things where we don't know, there may be multiple sets of prints that they haven't matched to anyone yet, and they're just not sharing that information. So that's, you know, I understand why they do it for the case, but that's why we're limited in what we can put out there because we don't know. I agree with you. I would assume based on the DNA analysis that they also printed and dusted the entire place. And maybe they got some positive results where they have prints that match the suspect. But again, we just don't know. They could have even gotten touch DNA off the bottle. But like you said, with the blood and everything, I know that makes it very hard to full profile. It could be a partial profile that they just can't really even talk about because it's not able to be tied to anyone. Yeah, but it definitely can be done because when I investigated the OJ Simpson case, I can tell you even back then with the DNA technology being as new as it was,

they were able to separate a mixture of blood which contained OJ Simpson, Nicole, and Ron Goldman. So it can be done for sure. And again, maybe they have, but they're just not saying. Well, there was a lot of speculation when Faith was murdered or, you know, questions, I should say, about why the Chapel Hill police were being so protective over her case. One of their first actions was to go to the court and have the records sealed. And that would have been understandable with it being so new. But the police court and have the records sealed. And that would have been understandable with it being so new, but the police continued to have the records sealed repeatedly for the next two years. So usually if police records are sealed by court order, that order will expire after a month or two.

And then, you know, every time that date was approaching where the order was going to expire, the police would go back and have it extended. And this happened for two years. And it was reported that not even Faith's family was really looped in on the progress of the investigation. So do you know how much Faith's immediate family was aware of the investigation as it was happening in that first two years? I don't, but I can tell you that they have a good relationship with the Chapel Hill Police Department, more specifically Lieutenant LaHue. I know they talk regularly. And even during our interviews, they never spoke badly about the Chapel Hill Police Department. And my guess is that they know more than they're willing to share because of the

integrity of the investigation. And they don't want to be the reason anything doesn't happen. But I do feel based on just my interviews with Connie and Roland that they do know more than just the public. And maybe that's because of their relationship with the police department. But by no means do I think they know something significant enough where they think they got the person. They just haven't been able to link them yet. Because based on my conversations with Roland, at this point, he might have acted on his own. So in a case like this, where you have parents whose child's been murdered, are they ever privy to the entire investigation? No, they definitely don't. And I'll tell you why. And I'll use myself as an example. If I was Faith's father and they came to me and said, Hey, Derek, here's what we know. And we're 99% confident based on

this, this, and this, that this person killed your daughter. But unfortunately, there's kind of a technicality right now. We need to have this other DNA identified before we can definitively go after this person. I don't know how I would react. And I know I'm supposed to be the model citizen here. But if I knew what I knew about the case regarding Faith and how she was killed, and I knew based on what I've seen that this person was the one who killed her, I would probably act on it without their blessing. And I'd probably end up in jail.

And I'm just saying that honestly. And so for that reason, law enforcement doesn't give the family too much because that's the extreme of what could happen. But it could also just be as minimal as the father or the mother decide to take the case in their own hands and conduct their own investigation based on what they know. And that would hurt the integrity of the investigation as well. So you, not you, but police, law enforcement in general, you're asking people to put a lot of faith into law enforcement at this point. Like, I don't know, it would drive me crazy if it was

my child, I'd want to know everything. And it would really upset me if I wasn't getting all the information because it's that control thing. This is my child, so I'm invested in her. But how do I know you're as invested in my daughter as I am? And how do I know you're doing everything that you can just because you say you are? That's the biggest issue we have. I mean, most of the time when the case isn't solved, the family doesn't think we're doing enough, right? I mean, when do they come to you and usually say, oh, my case has been unsolved for two years. You guys are doing a great job though. You know, they're always going to blame law enforcement.

And I'm not even saying that in some cases, their assumptions as far as law enforcement not doing enough is not true. But unfortunately, the situation is what it is. And there is a policy and procedure within law enforcement agencies throughout the country. And the policy is you don't divulge information that could be used in the court of law at a later date to convict someone, because if that information is shared and it's out to the public, the attorney general and the DA will absolutely crush the investigators for divulging that information to the public, the attorney general and the DA will absolutely crush the investigators

for divulging that information to the parents because now it can no longer be used as a form of credibility or validity. I understand like the legal ramifications, but emotionally, right? Like that's hard as a parent. And like you said, you know, they want to blame the police. Well, I mean, I hate to sound like this because I am supportive of law enforcement. But if the case doesn't get solved, it's kind of the police's fault. Like, that's just how it is. Your job. It's your one job to solve these cases. And if you can't or don't for whatever reason, I mean, not that it's like, oh, you're a horrible person.

You didn't solve this case. But yeah, it's it's your fault. Yeah. I mean, that's a deeper conversation because I definitely don't completely agree with you, but I will say this. There's also a difference between solving it and solving it in the timeframe the parents expect. And that's something to keep in mind too. You and I have had conversations off the record where it's like some of these cases are 20, 30 years old. I am of the belief where I fall in the same school of thought as you. It's like, if you haven't solved it in that amount of time. Let's open it up and allow some other people

to take a look at it. But if it's only been, you know, five, 10 years in relation to, I know that's tough to, I see your face. I know that's tough to, to, to swallow, but it's at the same time, that's still a reasonable amount of time where new information from witnesses who have direct information to solving the case could come forward after they have this epiphany and give you that piece of the puzzle you need to make an arrest. So it's a really tough balance between the emotional aspect of telling the family everything you know and being impartial and objective and approaching the case in the best way possible for a possible trial down the road, even if that's 10 or 15 years later. I can see your face. Guys, you can't see her face, but I can. She does not like this answer.

And I can tell you, we've had these debates and discussions. And maybe one day we just talk just about this. I've done cases where I see these police officers and they give their lives to these cases, right? But there's just as many where things fall between the cracks or certain cases aren't as important or certain cases just don't get the attention that they deserve. And if that's happening and for whatever reason, lack of funding or lack of manpower, it's not, you know, I just, I don't think it's, I don't know. Stephanie, listen, you're not wrong. And I'll even take it a step further and I might get killed for this one, but here's the reality. And it's a sad reality. Okay. Yes. It may be lack of enthusiasm on the

part of the detective, but here's another thing. It can also be lack of skill and experience. Not everyone in investigations is created equal. And I'm not even saying I'm the top guy out there. I'm telling you that in these bigger departments, there are multiple detectives working, and some of them aren't really that good. They suck. And I won't say names, but even in my own police department, if I got murdered tomorrow, there are certain guys in my own agency that I'd be really confident in if they got my murder case. And there's some where I would be like, well, my case is never getting solved. You know what I mean? And that's so you're as a family member, your loved one's life or the determination of figuring out who killed them and how it was done may be impacted by the person assigned

to the case and their qual and their qualifications. So you're right. You're, you're kind of putting a lot of trust in, in people that you don't know. And that's, I'm not saying I agree with it, but I'm saying that is, that is the harsh reality of it. That's a scary thought, right? The biggest pain in the ass. Well, think, think about it, right? You go, you go to get a haircut, right. Or, you know, you're not every stylist at the barbershop or at the salon is some are better than others, right? Like some are more experienced, some have better techniques, some, you know, some are smarter. It's no different. These are human beings that are detectives. Not all of them are geniuses. detectives or police officers that are responsible for solving somebody's murder,

then there needs to be more continuity of training. There needs to be better training. There needs to be constant checkups, constant check-ins where these police have to prove that they are up to date with all that they have. And I know you guys do have those and you're not a police officer anymore. I'm not mad at you, but I know the police officers have those, but I also know that it's pretty loose on, you know, whether they actually have to get them done on time. And I think there was a case, it was the Ahmaud Arbery case. And the guy who ended up, you know, being part of his shooting, he had been a previous police officer and he'd gotten suspended because he just hadn't done like his, you know, what are they called evaluations and things like that. It had gone on for years that he hadn't done his, what are they called? Evaluations and things like that. It had

gone on for years that he hadn't done that shit. So we need better policing of the police. Yeah. And think about this, Boulder, Colorado, right? We talked about JonBenet. They had one murder that year. Colorado Springs next door had hundreds. What detective unit do you think was better equipped to handle a murder investigation at that point? Right. So it's just, it's demographics, it's, it's experience. So again, we got off on a little bit of a tangent there and I apologize, but you know, we're, we're, we're back on, we're back on. All right. So the DNA sample that was found at the scene, it was actually used to compare against hundreds of individuals. Over 750 people were ruled out based on this DNA. And obviously,

these are going to be the people closest to Faith, the people she probably talked to that night, saw that night. They also interviewed over 2000 people, but no suspects or persons of interest have ever been named in this case. Although the police department is very clear that Faith's murder is still very open. And it's not a matter of if they solve it, but when. And I think they've also been very clear about the fact that they believe it was somebody who knew Faith who did this. They don't really think this was a random intruder or random attack. They think it was targeted. Yeah, I agree.

And I agree with them. You know, I said I said in the special that whoever entered her apartment, you know, they, they knew, they knew who Faith was. And I would even take it a step further and say they possibly knew that door was unlocked. But that's a leap on my part. But that's just what I believe. released an image that had been generated by Parabanana Labs, and they had used the program called Snapshot. And what Snapshot does is it takes the DNA and it creates an actual image based on the phenotype of DNA. So Snapshot is really cool because it's supposed to basically show you what the suspect might look like based on his or her DNA, his in this case. And the resulting image of the DNA that was found in Faith's apartment showed that the suspect was very strongly Native American and European mixed ancestry or Latino. Most of his genetic markers pointed to Mexican, Colombian, and Liberian ancestry with some other South American and African countries making up the balance.

Parabin believed with over 80% confidence that the suspect would have skin in the olive range with very few freckles or none at all and black hair and I believe brown eyes. It did not however make any predictions about his possible height or weight and like I said the police have made it really clear they don't believe this was a crime of opportunity. It's far more likely that Faith was murdered by someone she knew. Due to the violent nature of the crime, her injuries were likely committed by someone who had a great deal of anger and rage towards her. It was personal. And we've been recording for a while, so I think we should wrap it up and start with the theories and the potential suspects in the next

part. I agree. We definitely went longer than expected tonight. I don't think anyone's going to have an issue with that. I will say the phenotype, if you have a chance before next episode, check it out. It's really, really fascinating stuff. And I can tell you that Parabon's been a part of cases being solved. And when they actually find the person who matches the DNA snapshot, in some cases, the person looks a lot like the image they've created. So it's really impressive stuff what they're able to do. Maybe we'll dive into the phenotype a little bit more and what the results mean in regards to some of the possible theories. But this was a lot. This was a lot. And I'm glad

we went so in-depth with it. I think we hit all the points we wanted to hit, at least in this first part. Maybe we should post on Instagram on Crime Weekly's Instagram a picture, the phenotype snapshot. Great idea. Well, let's do it. Absolutely. Do we will. Yeah. When this when this when this launches, when this episode comes out, we'll we'll put it up as as an extra post. Yeah, we'll put up the post on Instagram and Twitter. And where can they find us on Instagram and Twitter, Derek? Yeah, if you don't know already, it's Crime Weekly Pod, at Crime Weekly Pod. And our website, if you're looking for where to download some of the other episodes or you want to contact us, it's CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com. All right, guys. So until next time. Why don't we have a tagline, Derek? We need a tagline. You're more creative than me when it comes to that stuff. Not at 1046 at night. So

until next time, we will eventually have a tagline. See you guys next week. Later. Crime Weekly, presented by i-D, is a co-production by Audioboom and Main Event Media.