Crime Weekly - S1 Ep21: A Mother's Mental Struggle Leads to Murder: Liliana Carrillo

Episode Date: April 30, 2021

On April 10th 2021, thirty year old Lilliana Carillo of Reseda California killed her three young children, three year old Joanna, two year old Terry, and six month old  Sierra. They were discovered by their grandmother at around 9:30 in the morning, but Lilliana was nowhere to be found, she had already fled the scene. Two of the children showed signs of being drowned, and all three had injuries that indicated they had been bludgeoned. She would later be apprehended and arrested, and once she was in custody Liliana would not deny that her children had died at her hands, but the reasons she gave for why she did this have turned this case into a convoluted maze that has raised many questions about mental health and the role of the system in protecting children from those they should be able to trust the most, their parents.  Link to Liliana Carillo's Interview: https://www.kget.com/news/crime-watch/exclusive-los-angeles-woman-admits-to-killing-her-three-children-in-jailhouse-interview/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_NhRiyowalHnbKjveNQxxA Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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Price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer. Single item at regular price. On April 10th, 2021, 30-year-old Liliana Carrillo of Reseda, California, killed her three young children. Three-year-old Joanna, two-year-old Terry,

and six-month-old Ciara. They were discovered by their grandmother at around 9.30 in the morning, but Liliana was nowhere to be found. She had already fled the scene. Two of the children showed signs of being drowned, and all three had injuries that indicated they had been bludgeoned.

She would later be apprehended and arrested, and once she was in custody, Liliana would not deny that her children had died at her hands. But the reasons she gave for why she did this have turned this case into a convoluted maze that has raised many questions about mental health and the role of the system in protecting children from those they should be able to trust the most, their parents. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're talking about a case that's currently happening. We usually don't discuss newer cases and developing cases, but I thought this one was important to talk about because there is a conversation to be had.

I've seen a lot of these cases pop up. And I'm not saying that they haven't happened in the months and the years that have passed before us. But they do seem to be happening a lot more. And I've noticed in comments on my YouTube videos when I talk about cases like this. And like I said, they seem to be much more prevalent now. So there have been more cases like this. I've I said, they seem to be much more prevalent now. So there have been more cases like this. I've seen people questioning what's going on, you know, especially when we have parents who are killing their children. And it seems like every time you turn your computer on or you're listening to the news, there's one, two, three more cases of this happening. And,

you know, the question is, why is it happening so much now? And a lot of people have asked, is it because we've all been locked up for the past year? Is it because certain instances of child abuse, neglect, or even just mental health issues are going unseen? Yeah, it's, you know, it's interesting to look at it because I know when I was patrolling the streets, everyone was always surprised to hear being forced to stay inside because I'm in the East Coast, it's cold. And then the added, the added pressure of a parent providing a good Christmas for their kids. And I worked in an economically deprived area. So you around the holidays, it was always there was a lot of calls for domestic violence. And, and that was some of the contributing factors to it so considering what's

going on in the world right now with the lockdowns i could definitely see how even in the summertime when most people would be out and have the ability to kind of spread their wings so to speak and get away from each other for a little while go to the park or play out even in the backyard it's a little more difficult to do that right now. So it's interesting how something specifically designed to stop one problem like the spreading of COVID can cause other issues. And that's just the world we live in. You have a lot of things like that where there's always positives and negatives to every decision that's made. And that's why there has to be a constant evaluation of what you're doing and the pros and cons to it. Yeah. And there has to be, I think, a system in place. If you know that locking everybody up in their homes is going to cause an increase of domestic violence, of depression, of things like that, then you need to have an answer for that new problem that solving one problem is going to cause. So I think that's kind of what didn't happen here because we've never been in this situation before.

Right. So I'm not blaming anybody. I'm not saying, you know, you should have known. But at the same time, we clearly see that this is happening now and there has to be a solution because we can't we can't go on like this. And in this specific case, whereas a lot of the times I'll look at these cases where parents take the lives of their own children and I'll say, you know, there's no excuse for this. Clearly, you had other motives. In this case, I'm not saying that she has an excuse or she's not responsible, but what I'm saying is I can't really decipher what the motive would be besides that she was really, really having a hard time. And as we get more

into this, you'll see that it goes so much deeper. And it's just rough because it's very easy when you're talking about these cases to point at a bad guy. We like to do that. It's human nature. Who do we blame for this? Somebody died. Somebody lost their life. Who's to blame? But in this kind of situation, who do you blame? You know, can you blame anyone? Well, you feel like you have to blame someone. You have to find a reason for why this happened so it doesn't happen again, so that these three young lives aren't just completely erased off the face of the earth without an explanation or some kind of lesson learned. But I don't know. I just hope that there is a lesson learned from it. Yeah, I think that's the whole principle behind what we do,

right, is to highlight these cases, but also see what we can take out of them, how we can educate ourselves to be better versions of the people we are now and as a society, how we can be better, because these social issues aren't specific or just, you know, specifically focused on this one particular case. It's probably happening to other people, other families to a lesser extent, I would hope. But it is happening and it's good to talk about it because there may be somebody out there who's listening or watching and going through some similar issues, maybe not to this extreme, but maybe something out of this we can all learn from.

So I'm looking forward to talking about it. Well, we're talking about Liliana Carrillo today. She was a 30-year-old woman, three small children. We talked about that a little bit in the introduction. The father of her children was a man named Eric Denton. And I do not believe that they were married because in court paperwork, he's referred to as her boyfriend or her partner sometimes, but not her husband. And she actually gave an interview to KGET. And through this interview, it sheds some light on a lot of things. It sheds some light on her background, her relationship with Eric, or at least her perception. And that's kind of the thing that gets a little confusing because in this interview, she says a lot of things. I think it's about 29 minutes. She says a lot of things, but it's all from her point of

view and her perception. And I do believe that this woman is very, very mentally sick. So we don't really know how much of her perception is accurate or is stemming from her paranoia and her delusions. But she claims that she had a very challenging upbringing. She never really elaborates on that part. She simply says her mother is a great person, very supportive, but she was a tough mom and also a sensitive person. And she and Liliana didn't always see eye to eye. Liliana also mentions that she's a Taurus. So Liliana herself is a Taurus. So she's very stubborn and she feels that she's been an ungrateful daughter. But at a very young age, she left her family and she sort of broke ties with an ungrateful daughter but at a very young age she left her

family and she sort of broke ties with them due to some disagreements. At some point after separating herself from her family she was actually working as an Uber driver and one of the customers she picked up was a man named Eric Denton who would go on to be the father of her three children. She says when she picked him up they they had a 45-minute drive, and this gave them a lot of time to talk and get to know each other. She says that Eric talked about his failed relationships. She talked about her failed relationships, issues with her family, etc. And according to Liliana, she also talked with Eric about the work that she did, and she claims that this work she did was going around the California area

and being an advocate against human trafficking. Liliana also says some stuff about her education. You know, she says to the gentleman interviewing her, you know, I'm not crazy. Go and look at my grades in college. I'm not crazy. Like he's telling everyone I'm crazy, but I'm not. I did really well in school you know I had a great college career I have a great career in general I'm not crazy and this it really kind of it hurts a little bit to hear it because you know that I think I mean you don't know right but the the general consensus is this woman is struggling with some very, very harsh mental health issues. And for her to be almost a prisoner in her own mind,

like she thinks she's absolutely fine. And she feels like everybody else around her doesn't see that she's okay. And everyone thinks she's crazy, but she's over here thinking, you know, I'm completely sane. What is everybody thinking? So Liliana claims that she's got this college education. She's got this advocacy career. She says she is a person who was always meant to help other people. She says she's always been a social justice warrior. She's been vocal

about things going on in the world. I can't find any evidence that this is the case, that she was some sort of a human rights advocate or, you know, human trafficking, not advocate, but advocating against human trafficking. I can't find that. That doesn't mean it's true. It's not true. It just means that I can't find any evidence of it. But at this point, Liliana claims she meets Eric.

They have a relationship. At this time, she did not know, according to her, that he was a bad person. But now, with hindsight, she believes that Eric recognized that she was in a vulnerable place in life. He knew that she wasn't in contact with her family, so she was sort of isolated and on her own, and he took advantage of this. And the reason that she's given for taking the lives of her three children is that their father, Eric, and his friends and the majority of the people in his town, his hometown,

they were part of a human trafficking group who were abusing her kids and other kids. It's interesting because I do know with other cases that I've researched, I've worked on cases that I've just read about out of curiosity, you do see something like this, right? Even if the individual is mentally disturbed, there's usually a justification for it. I remember there was a case that I looked back and I apologize, I don't remember the name of it, but it was a woman who tried to put her children in an oven, you know, like she was because she felt like the devil was going to come after them and she was trying to stop them from being taken over by the devil. You know, so in her own mind, do I believe that she truly believes this as she's saying it?

Yeah, I do. I do. It'll be interesting as we continue to talk about this to see if there's any evidence or supporting information that she provides that would suggest that there's any truth to the fact that Eric was in fact involved in any type of human trafficking whatsoever, even something that she could have mistaken as being an element of human trafficking. My hunch is that there probably isn't anything. But it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Yeah I believe that she believes it as well. And you know me.

When it comes to hurting children. I have very little tolerance. And if I sense you know an iota of bullshit. I'm going to call it out. I think she actually believes it. And my husband was kind of walking around the kitchen while I was listening to her interview and he didn't know like the full story and he said you know I believe her and I said yes but I think she she has some mental health issues happening you know because I'd already looked into the case before I saw the interview and he was like oh well that that makes

a little bit more sense he was like because it sounded legitimately like she had uncovered this ring of pedophiles. She speaks with such conviction and she speaks very intelligently and she speaks very well. She's not stammering. She doesn't seem confused. She's lucid. She's sure. And if you didn't know the background, you would think to yourself, oh, yeah, like this woman legitimately thought that something horrible was happening to her kids because

she's very, very sure of it. I had a situation like this happen before. So I own property. I'm going to keep names and everything out of it. But I had a situation years ago where there was a renter who believed that through the radio frequencies of their smoke alarms and of their microwave, they were being monitored by the government. True story. And clearly, I don't believe that's the case. But they were removing their smoke alarms because of this, which is clearly dangerous.

It's very dangerous, especially when you have multiple units because they're all wired and interconnected. So if you have a fire in that apartment, it won't notify anybody else. So that can't happen. So I went up there and I was speaking with them. And as I sat there and I wanted to, I didn't want to discredit them and I wanted to listen to them. And I did for about an hour. And I will tell you this, if I didn't have common sense, as you just alluded to, they gave some very good reasoning behind it. Yeah, compelling.

If I didn't know that clearly there wasn't being anything transmitted out of the fire, the smoke alarms, I probably would believe them. So I can see where it's coming from. But in lieu of everything you just said and everything that I just said, we have to keep in context what we're talking about here. This woman is giving a justification as to why she killed her children. And the reasoning behind her killing her children was to protect them from human trafficking. So she felt the best action was not to go to the police.

Well, no, that's not true. She did go to the police. Ah, so again, and by the way, guys, I'm not too familiar with this case. So I'm learning as we go. This is one that came up like it's current. Stephanie informed me about it, gave me the overview, and I was interested in hearing more about it. So I'm sure we're going to get into that. But that all said, she made the ultimate decision that to protect them from human trafficking, she was going to kill them. And I don't think we have to learn anymore to know that that's probably not the best choice, right? So clearly there's something going on there mentally that's not allowing her to process the information the right way, which is why we are where we are right now. So that's the one thing you got to keep in mind is it's okay to understand that there's probably

something going on there where, but even if, even if she truly believes that again, her decision, her, her, her answer to this problem was to kill the children, to protect them, which clearly doesn't make sense. So there's definitely some mental illness going on there, for sure. I agree. And, you know, I was I was thinking because I'm always trying to put myself in people's people's shoes. And I said, you know, let's say she 100 percent believes that she's gone to the police. She's taken all these avenues. But why is this your last resort? Like escape, you know, take them and run, go someplace, do something. You know, there's other industries and organizations that will take you in, you know, especially if you're, you know, dealing with domestic abuse at home, like there was other

things you could have done. So clearly, like you said, there is this sign of instability there right from the get go, because that's not ever the solution. No, absolutely not. And I'm interested now, based on what you just kind of hinted to, to learn about the background, because it sounded like there maybe had been an opportunity to possibly prevent this from a law enforcement side of it. So I definitely want to know more about that. I think before we do, let's take a quick break and then we'll keep going.

All right. So before we went on break, you said you want to dive into the background, kind of where she's getting this from, why she believes it and how this all came to be. Right. So Liliana claims that she believes for quite a while her children have been being groomed by their father and his associates. And she believes this because her children have given her reason to believe that they had been sexually abused. Liliana said that she noticed these things for a while, but she didn't believe that Eric was involved until February of 2021.

And that at that point, she took her children and she left the town of Porterville where he'd moved them. And then she took her kids to Reseda to be closer to her family. So the story kind of goes is that she realized or felt she realized that there was something up, that something was happening to her kids. But she didn't think that he was involved. So she'd go to him like a mother goes to the father and she's like, hey, I'm worried about the kids. You know, they're saying this and he would say things like, oh, don't worry about it. You're over exaggerating. That's just how kids are. You know, they're making things up. Like, don't worry about it. And so she would kind of just be like, oh, maybe I am overreacting. And then she'd move on until another incident came up.

And then at that point, she would bring it back up to him and he would just continue to tell her, like, don't worry about this. You're worrying about it. You don't need to. So she didn't think until another incident came up. And then at that point, she would bring it back up to him and he would just continue to tell her, like, don't worry about this. You're worrying about it. You don't need to. So she didn't think he was involved. And he just kind of kept telling her, you know, don't worry about this.

But then she realized he was involved. And she also claims that he moved them around specifically to isolate her. So Porterville happens to be the place he was born. And she says he brought her there because all of his friends are there, all of his family's there, nobody's there for her, and everybody who's there is going to be on his side. And then she says he was also planning to move them from Porterville to Washington State, and she left him before he could do that. So in February of 2021,

she leaves. And Liliana claimed that right before this, her oldest daughter, Joanna, who was only three, she'd made comments about hurting down there. And she also noticed that when she and her kids were at the playground, she said that they would kind of purposely try to hurt themselves. And one day, Joanna, the three-year-old daughter, she grabbed Liliana's face and tried to like shove her tongue into Liliana's mouth. So what I'm assuming Liliana means by this is Joanna was exhibiting behaviors that were not normal for a three-year-old girl like over sexualized behaviors for a three-year-old things that she must have learned from someone from someone else right yeah um that's a telltale sign of of a child molestation that's things we look for when individuals would come into a police department you know if these kids like this case are acting out sexual acts that clearly they shouldn't know at that age that's the

first thing we usually look at is are there older siblings are you know parents things of that nature who could be teaching them this and then usually we'll have a you know an organization called day one here in Rhode Island come in and interview the child if needed to try to identify where this child picked up these behaviors. Was it from someone at school? Was it from an older sibling? Or worst case scenario, is it from an adult in their life, whether it's a mother, a father, an uncle, an aunt, right? There's a cousin. It could be a lot of offenders who are the reason behind this. So do you know if when Joanna started seeing I'm sorry, when Liliana started witnessing this stuff, did she report it to anybody at this

point? Maybe social workers, anything like that? I don't believe so. And I agree with you. This is obviously a red flag, right? Huge. Yeah. But we also have to keep in mind that if somebody who may be having paranoia and anxiety about this kind of stuff, if they start looking it up online like they do, you know, when you're sick and you're like, oh, and you put your symptoms in and then all of a sudden you're down a rabbit hole. Yeah, you're down a rabbit hole and you've got colon cancer. You know, somebody who's seeing this everywhere and thinks it's happening everywhere, they are going to look that up and they're going to see what the red flags are.

And I'm not saying that she saw this online and then was like, oh, this is how I get out of it. But I think that she saw it and then almost just kind of immersed it into her story. Right. They can contort, you know, reality with what their beliefs are. Yeah. From what I'm seeing, it looks like Liliana was 30 years old when this really started to come to a head. Do we know if she was ever, you know, based on what's been released so far and with HIPAA and everything like that, there's probably not much.

Do we know if she was ever seen by professionals, whether it was as a child or as a young adult that could have maybe preceded some of these things that, you know, where we're at now that do we know if she had any type of mental illness in her history? So there's actually, yeah, there's, there's a lot out there about it from her, from her family. We'll get there. Yeah. So this isn't something that came out of left field is where I was getting from. This is something that, okay, okay, say no more.

I can see, for those of you who are not, I can see Stephanie's head shaking. That's why it's so frustrating. Yeah, I mean, that's why it is so frustrating because there's evidence that people around her had been bringing this to everyone's attention and nothing happened. Well, Liliana, speaking about Joanna, her three-year-old daughter, the oldest, she said that Joanna spoke English and Spanish and also knew sign language.

And then she said, quote, my daughter, even though she wasn't speaking the way a normal single language child would speak, she was very confident and very smart and she told me it was her dad, end quote. So this is the point where Liliana begins to think that the abuse that's happening is not some random stranger, but her actual partner and the father of her children. And, you know, she said at first she thought that Joanna didn't know what she was talking about. Maybe she was confused. But then the kids spent a week with their father because at this point he and Liliana were sharing custody. And when they got home, Joanna said it again. And when Liliana was changing her diaper, she said that Joanna was wiggling away and saying that it hurt. And like I said, Liliana would constantly bring these things

up to Eric, but every time he would tell her she was wrong or she was imagining things. And Liliana told the reporter who was interviewing her that she'd done everything a mother could do to protect her children. She'd gone to CPS and social workers. She'd filed a report with the LA County Police Department. She went to the pediatrician, had the kids examined. She'd taken the normal routes that someone takes when they believe their children are being abused and no one helped her. Like I said, Liliana says that Eric moved her and the kids to Porterville because he knew the people there, all his friends were there, and she kept saying this over and over again. It's a small town. It's a small town where everyone's going to

protect him. She claimed that Eric's friends had threatened her and pretty much told her like the harder she tried to save her children, the worse it was going to be for them. So this is what she claims. She says that Eric basically tried to gaslight her and tell her she was imagining everything and his friends would give her these subtle threats. And she said they they call each other OGs. I don't know what she thinks they mean by that, but OGs. And they would basically say to her, you know, the more you keep pushing this, the less good it's going to be for you and your kids. And so OGs, original gangsters, they would call them like, you know, you know, they're from the they're the root of the system there. Yeah. So that makes sense why she would say it in that way.

I mean, I know what OGs are, but I just didn't know what she would find that threatening for. But so that's kind of what was going on. She was getting threatened by these people, according to her. So because of this, she realized that there was nothing that she could do in order to make sure that her children weren't being tortured and abused for the rest of their lives so she she killed them to save them from their father and his friends who allegedly according to her are part of a sex trafficking operation. Liliana also claims that she had brought them to the Sequoia Medical Center and she says that the people at the Sequoia Medical Center are complicit in this because she brought the kids to the pediatrician and she says that the people at the Sequoia Medical Center are complicit in this because she brought the kids to the pediatrician and she said, you know, they're being abused and she had brought them specifically there for that. But then apparently later when she was filing a complaint

against Eric, she wanted to get those records and they said they didn't have them and they couldn't find them. And then she said the only time they gave them to her was when she went there and physically had to pick them up. So, you know, this is a sign of paranoia. Every single person is against you. Every single person is in this, you know, not just Eric, not just the town of Porterville, but the people at the Sequoia Medical Center as well. Yeah, again, and this goes to what we've been talking about, right? Like there's something here. There is a pattern that we find with people who have, you know, underlining mental issues where, you know, whatever the situation may be, whenever someone comes into their life to try to help them or explain what might be happening to them internally, they find a way because, again, because of what they're going through to contort that story, that narrative to fit what they believe, which is, oh, you're not here to help me. You're here to corrupt me.

You're here to hurt me as well. So and that happens a lot. We see it with in law enforcement all the time where, you know, I may respond to a scene to try to help someone who's going through some issues at the time. And I can try to get through to them but in many cases you do need a professional there who knows how to deal with that because it's a very sensitive issue and it's something that has to be handled perfectly it's not something you can just come off the street and be good at um there's a specific way to approach a situation like that so that as you're trying to help that person you don't lose them because the minute they convince themselves that you're in on it you're in you're an enemy yeah you're an enemy you lose them because the minute they convince themselves that you're in on it, you're in on it.

Or you're an enemy. You're an enemy. You lost them because everything from that point forward is just an agenda on your part to try and manipulate them and hurt them as well. So it's a really, really tough balancing act. And you can kind of see that here where it seems like someone, you know, people did try to maybe possibly help her in that situation. But she always looked at it as they were, again, in on it with Eric. And I think this really does go to something I've been saying now for the better part of three years. We should be interacting some sort of mental health training into, you know, police officers training.

And I know you guys get some, but I don't think you get enough. I think that you're the first, you're the first people that are called. So you need to distinguish rather quickly, is this a criminal thing? Or is this something to do with, you know, mental health, and then handle that accordingly. And you'll be able to do that better if you have some even, I think, basic, you know, psych 101 training, like what are the signs of BPD? What are the signs of, you know, schizophrenia, things like that. So you can identify them on a base level and sort of triage and figure out who needs help and what kind of help that they need. Yeah, no, you're right. And there is training for it. It's even become more of an issue now since I've retired. But even before it was something where we would get mental health training once a year, maybe twice. tough to hear, funding, right? It comes down to

funding. It comes down to funding. I know everyone listening or watching is saying, that is terrible. The fact that that's the reason, that's the excuse, but it's the reality. It costs a lot of money to bring individuals in to train, but it also is situations where just like any job, you know, police officers work staggered shifts, right? so when you have to have the guys who are working 12 to 8 in the morning stay from 8 to 4 p.m to go through this training they're being paid overtime you know and that adds up and so it's all about budgetary issues and finding the funding to provide for the it's it's again not a good excuse at all i don't think it's an excuse i think you're 100 correct. But at the same time, it's not the police officer's job to distinguish where that funding goes, right? So there's funding and the base police officer isn't like, oh, let's put money towards this. Let's put it towards this.

They're just at the bottom of the totem pole. Essentially, the people who are deciphering or deciding where that funding goes, they need to do a better job because I'm sure that a lot of money goes to things that are not as important as making sure that these calls are being addressed in the manner that they need to be addressed in. And, you know, I don't even think it would hurt to have just one person on each shift who was very well trained in mental health. And that's the person that sort of like is the agent, like, okay, this is what the deal is. What do you think? And this person who's very well trained, maybe even at like a psychologist level says, okay, this is what's happening in my opinion,

and this is how we should deal with it. And then you don't have to train everyone, but you have somebody on all the time who is capable of handling it. Yeah, there's some logistical, First, it's a great approach. And we have something like that in other areas. Like for example, every officer is trained in DUIs and how to perform what's called SFSTs, where you're standing to feel sobriety test. If you stop someone who you believe is under the influence, we all have the training and should be certified in that. But there are individuals called drug recognition experts or DREs. These are individuals who are not only receive the basic training, but go for

some intense training as far as recognizing the different symptoms and the different behaviors associated not just with alcohol, but also different types of drugs. And these are like the best of the best at this. And they have to go for a lot of a lot of extra training to do that so to your point the same should be done with you know mental illness and and having someone on each shift um who who has that extra level of training so that if a situation like this arises that individual can respond to the scene if requested by that originating officer here's and we don't have to dive too much in the weeds on this because we're not a law enforcement agency trying to solve all their problems. I will tell you as a former sergeant, someone who assigned individuals to shifts, here's

what happens. You have this training come up and it's expensive. So you send one officer from each shift, mornings,nights and, and, and, uh, days. I mean, in nights. So 12 to eight, eight to 12,

uh, four, four to midnight, three shifts. And it works out great. You send all three officers. They're on their shifts, right?

Six months from that point, all officers have the opportunity to bid off of their shift and go somewhere else. So what happens is that officer who is on nights decides, I want to go to days now because my kid's playing baseball and you can't stop them. It's like a union thing, just like any other job. So now you end up having two DREs on one shift and none on the next shift. So it's always like this logistical nightmare. So the only solution is to train as many of them as you can. And I think we're getting to a point in our society now, especially with how often this is happening.

We got to find a way through the federal government to provide the funding so that every officer is receiving as hard as this is going to be. Every officer is receiving this level of training, not only for situations like this to how to handle it, but also in situations where it may seem initially like lethal force is the most appropriate action. But with that more in-depth training, the officer may recognize what they're dealing with and know how to verbally handle it. So there's so many reasons to do it and none not to. So other than the money and money cannot be an excuse. Yeah. And I think more mental health training in general will just make a person by default more empathetic. I don't, you know, I've never met anybody who's studied mental health for any period of time who hasn't come out of that seeing things in a completely different light. Because if you've never struggled with it, you can't possibly understand it.

But learning about it helps you understand it to the point where you can at least be more empathetic towards people. I know part of our mental health training, this was years ago, was to, you know, when dealing with individuals who are schizophrenic, they actually had us put headphones on and they played this track from what it would sound like if you were, and they would talk to us. And it's like a nightmare. It's an absolute nightmare. And so you're right. You are more empathetic. It's the same thing as taser training. A lot of the times that the reason officers are tased as part of their training is so that they realize how painful it is should, you know, to understand that that could be detrimental to that person and also the risks that go with it. It should be no different for individuals who have a mental health concern. So yeah, I'm completely on board with you. And I think most people are on any side of the aisle. It just comes down to the money. It just comes

down to the money. That's usually what it is. Isn't that always what it is? You're right. It always can come down to the money. It's unfortunate the world we live in, but it's a reality. Well, we've heard her side. We've heard Liliana's side. But Eric Denton, her boyfriend, her partner, the father of her children, he's got a little bit of a different story. So Eric reported that Liliana was showing signs of some sort of mental disorder for months before this happened. So I think the number that kind of everybody agreed on was about three months that it looked like things were going downhill. According to court records from a previous custody battle, Eric said Liliana was becoming, quote, extremely paranoid and erratic, and she was making bizarre claims about

a trafficking ring in his hometown of Porterville. She'd also made statements that she believed she was solely responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic, like the outbreak of COVID-19. She felt that she had somehow brought this on. Eric told a Tulare County judge in March that he was afraid for his children's physical and mental well-being. Eric, along with many of his family members, had made multiple efforts to get help from CPS, but social workers had ultimately decided to leave the children with their mother. So Eric Denton, he has a cousin, and this cousin is a doctor, Dr. Terry Miller. So Dr. Miller's an emergency room physician in LA and she was helping Eric in these past months, like trying to get the kids, not only, you know, get them away from Liliana, but trying to get Liliana help. And she

said, quote, we kept bringing up all the right red flags about her behavior. The judge in Porterville listened and read all the information, but everyone in L.A. kept pushing it off to someone else, end quote. I don't doubt this one bit. I don't doubt this one bit. We see it in not only cases like this, but in a lot of other situations. And this is the reality, right? Like in hindsight, it's like, you know, oh, well, they should have done something, but they didn't. But the reality is not all these situations end up this severe. But this is a common story that we hear all the time about people going to people for help, people in the justice system, especially the courts. And nobody really wants to deal with it. It's always delayed, prolonged, pushed to another department. You know, it happens every, you know, in a lot of different facets of our lives.

And, you know, when children are involved, there's so much more at risk. And we're seeing that here. And don't get me wrong. I understand the hesitancy, right? You're talking about separating children from their mother, okay? You want to be absolutely sure that there's something going on before you cause that trauma to not only the mother, but the kids, you know, because there could be multiple times where you've got, seen this a million times where these false allegations are made and then you cause more harm to a family than there was even there before. So obviously you're going to be hesitant to go in and just guns blazing, like, give me your kids and leave. However, there's no reason why this wasn't

followed up on. Yeah, but you do make a great point. The judge is not only hearing what they're saying, but trying to understand the agendas behind it. And you made a great point. Yes, Terry is a doctor, but as you alluded to, she's the cousin of Eric. So automatically, I'm sure in the eyes of the judge, he's taking what she has to say with a little level of skepticism because again, she's a supportive cousin she's biased and you imagine liliana right liliana's looking at terry or doctor you know dr terry miller and thinking i don't care about anything you have to say because you're not a doctor to me you're just one of eric's ogs you're part of this conspiracy you're part of this group of people that are

trying to shut me up and abuse my kids nope absolutely, absolutely. It's a lose-lose situation for sure. Let's take another break. We'll be right back. So a little while ago, you actually brought up the fact, you know, if Liliana had any previous history with mental illness, and she was asked this in the interview by the gentleman who was talking to her. And she said that she had struggled with anxiety depression and post-traumatic stress disorder since she was a child but she said she'd never been technically diagnosed or prescribed any medication she said she did smoke marijuana but she'd stopped doing that the previous February and when she murdered her children she'd been completely sober and not under the influence of anything and she she mentions that she was seeing a

therapist. And when she was seeing the therapist, which I assume was within the last year before she killed her kids, she said that she told the therapist that she believed she had these things. She does skirt around the issue of whether or not she was actually ever really diagnosed. And she says that the therapist didn't have it in her records, and then she saw the therapist write it down. So I don't believe she was ever, I guess, actually diagnosed with these things by a doctor. But that doesn't mean she didn't have them. I mean, she would know better than anybody if she was dealing with depression and anxiety and things like that.

But she was never on any medication. Eric Denton, as well as members of Liliana's own family, including her sister, they claimed that she had struggled with postpartum depression for years, which makes a lot more sense to me than post-traumatic stress disorder. Liliana had expressed thoughts of suicide in the past, and she was known to self-medicate with marijuana. They said that she'd struggled with postpartum depression since the birth of her second child, but things got even worse after her third pregnancy. And then there was obviously mass media reports about COVID, and then there's new COVID strains, and this really stressed her out. So, you know, obviously COVID stressed her out. And then she has her third child who was only six months old. She has this third child, this youngest daughter during the COVID pandemic, you know, she's giving birth in lockdown, in quarantine.

And then every time she turns on the TV, there's a new COVID outbreak here and there's another one here and now there's another strain. And now, you know, how are we going to protect against this strain? And I do have to admit that I think the media coverage of this whole pandemic from day one has been very, very alarmist, which I guess, you know, when you're dealing with a worldwide pandemic, you do want to alarm people, but at the same time, you do have to worry and consider the mental health of people and maybe ask yourselves, do they need a break from this? You know, they've already heard about the new strain. They've already heard about the next thing that's going to kill us all. Maybe let's take a break and we don't have to talk about it on a 24-hour news cycle every single minute with a constant, you know, little ticker at the

bottom of the screen showing how many new cases and how many new diagnosis and how many new deaths and what's going on. And now the vaccine's not working. And now this vaccine is not working. It's just so negative all the time. I do notice that there was very little hope in the media this past year. It was a lot of like, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to us. And very little of we're going to get through this. I don't know if you agree. No, I mean, you make a valid point. I think in media in general, the goal is to be first. It's to get out whatever you have and to be the first to kind of put it out there. Hey, breaking news, right? That's the number one thing we hear. And what I find is that a lot of times the media puts out what they initially have, and then they'll make addendums to it. They'll redact certain things. They'll change it. But

the people who saw the initial breaking headlines may not see that. I just saw something today that I found fascinating. It was an article I was reading where, you know, Johnson and Johnson, there was this big, there's this pause on Johnson and Johnson, the vaccine. And it was a huge story. And basically saying that there's an underlying condition with certain people who've had it. And that was the only part of the headline that basically they're putting a pause on it. There may be some there may be some really bad side effects, you know, lethal side effects. Blood clots, I think it was, right? Blood clots, exactly. And then about a week later, they announced that out of the six million people who've taken Johnson & Johnson, six had displayed this symptom. So it was one out of every million

individuals. So again, one is one too many, but that's a very low number, a very low probability. And so they just did a study in the last like week and they, they pulled a bunch of people to ask them, even if the Johnson and Johnson vaccine was again offered at any point, would they, would they be willing to take that vaccine knowing what they know now? And don't quote me on these numbers. It's pretty much available, but it was like only like a quarter of the people, like 25% would be willing to take the vaccine at this point, even if the Johnson and Johnson one. Right. Not just Johnson and Johnson. Yeah. The Johnson and Johnson one now. And they relate that a lot. They correlate that a lot with the media coverage of it.

And now the predisposition is there. And that vaccine is a base is basically dead at this point. I won't take it. Not after this. No. And I mean, I'll get the vaccine, but I'm not getting that vaccine. And, you know, that's that's the thing. Like the media purports itself as this entity that's just, oh, we are worried about you guys. We're bringing you the news because we're concerned about you. But really, they need to be more upfront about what they are and what the media always has been, which is how can we, you know, in the old days, sell papers, you have the paper boys out there, like screaming the headlines, five cents, you know, this crazy thing building blew up. It's the same thing. They're just trying to now at this point, get clicks and get views. And and they they, they really do sensationalize things sometimes.

And that's not the best thing for public health, because we really do have to recognize the very negative impact that this all has had on everybody's, you know, brains and hearts. And it's just exhaustion. And there's a sense of despair that begins to set in at some point. And I consider myself a fairly happy person. I've never really struggled with any sort of depression. But this past year, for the first time ever, I've been thinking, wow, I feel really down. And I don't even know how to handle this because I've never experienced it before. So you're having not only people with pre-existing mental health conditions, but you're having a

whole plethora of people now who've never had mental health issues and they're having them now. And it's going, I think for the most part, unnoticed and untalked about. Yeah, you're right. And we're by no means saying that the media is responsible for what happened to these children. We're just saying that, you know, it's a factor. It is a factor. No, of course we're not saying that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, someone has, even a normal person like yourself or myself,

it's very alarming to read these headlines day in and day out, factor that in or, you know, add to that that this individual has a mental, an underlining health condition and they see these same type of, you know, headlines, they're going to view them very differently than you or I. So it's, again, it's a totality of circumstances that led to this. And I think the underlining factor is mental health, but these are contributing factors. Well, in the past few months before this happened, everyone said that Liliana had begun to really lose touch with reality, which I think is pretty evident, especially, you know, we can say, well, we don't want to write off right away that there may be some sort of exploitation

happening to these kids because that would be irresponsible as we don't know what went on behind the scenes but i think we can be fairly certain that liliana was not the cause of the copa 19 outbreak so she's clearly losing touch with reality yeah that and you're right that's that's a clear indication that you know if she was really steadfast on just the sex trafficking angle and that's really it there was nothing else to it you could say hey you know let's not completely discredit her here there might we might be the crazy ones but as you just mentioned when the minute she comes out and says i'm responsible for covid i think a trained professional even the normal person that just looking at this at face value is all going to go

up okay all right there's something there's some there's something off here that we have to look deeper into so it was actually late febru February when Liliana began making these allegations of the pedophile ring in Porterville. And she also was claiming that someone had been allowed to molest her daughters. She brings up in this interview three other young girls. She gives their names and then she says, I don't even know if those are their real names anymore or, you know, what their real names are, but I believe they're in danger, too. So she's she's got lots of different stories. And the police in Porterville did make a visit to the home when she went there and claimed that, you know, her daughters were being molested or her daughter was being molested. But no arrests were made. Now Liliana will claim that that's because there's something going on in

Porterville that there's this big cover-up that everybody's OGs it's Eric's hometown and she also said that she felt that every step she made to protect her kids such as calling the human trafficking hotline and things like that it only made CPS want to remove the kids from her custody even more which is funny that she views it that way because I think that Eric would view it the opposite way, that he was continually trying to have them removed from her care so that she could be checked on and they wouldn't do it no matter what. And she feels that they just kept trying to take the kids.

So that does give you an indication of two people who are experiencing the same thing but seeing it in a completely different way and it might have been some truth to what she was saying as far as the police or you know whoever was showing up we're saying hey listen if you keep saying things like this we're gonna have to go through the process of possibly removing the kids from your custody so she might be telling the truth about that where, hey, I was calling them, telling them what's going on as far as the human trafficking, as far as COVID.

And their response was always, hey, if you keep talking like this, we're going to have to, you know, take the kids away. So that's that was her view. Her version of the truth. Her version of the truth. Because they are thinking, you know, right now you're sounding like you're not mentally stable. And she's thinking, I'm trying to get help.

And every time I try to help my kids you want to take them from me more and she claims that she feels she was a target because of the work that she'd done to to stop human trafficking so i'm not sure if she believes she's a target of the people of porterville or eric or the police but because of her her past with advocating against human trafficking she believes that she was a target of this, which is so sad if you think about it to actually feel that way. I mean, I'm somebody who is a big believer that human trafficking isn't given enough attention. I mean, I've talked to people that literally say human trafficking isn't real. It's a conspiracy theory. They just, they actually don't believe that it happens. And

it's very prevalent. And it happens every single day in every state, country, around the world, it happens every single day. So I understand how you would want to advocate against that. And I understand that it is something very serious that needs to be taken very seriously. So she thinks that she's really, you know, that her children have become targets of this because she's been fighting to try and stop it. And that's just devastating. Yeah. In her mind, like you said, she's trying to do in her mind, she's doing good. But to the outside world, to everyone else seeing this from their perspective, it's a woman who's really struggling. Yeah. And she says that, you know, her phone was hacked.

Her Facebook was deactivated. This was just a grand plan to silence her, to watch her, to make sure she wasn't contacting anybody, to make sure she couldn't contact people so that obviously they could continue abusing her children. So L.A. County's Department of Children and Family Services have actually received at least two separate reports involving this family. But despite repeated conversations with Eric and the family, as well as court orders that restricted Liliana's custody, social workers made no moves to remove the children from her care. And this is a real issue with L.A. County. I do believe they have the biggest department of children and family services in the whole country. Like they have a very big department. And when I say big, I don't necessarily mean resources. I mean, they have a lot of cases. And we know that social workers

are already overwhelmed. I was a psych major. I thought about going into social work. I know exactly how much each of these social workers has on their plates, and I know how that can tend to have some kids and some families fall between the cracks, not out of maliciousness, just out of, you know, you can't split yourself in two. You can't clone yourself and be everywhere at all times. But once again, this is a question of resources. Why is L.A. County not devoting more resources to DCFS when they know that this is very, very needed and they do know it? I think one is funding, but I also think

something you said earlier in this episode that's extremely important to come back to, which is when you're considering removing the children from their mother, it's something that is taken very seriously because that's going to have an effect on the children from their mother, it's something that is taken very seriously because that's going to have an effect on the children regardless. And you want to make damn sure you're doing the right thing because removing children from their mother's custody is going to affect them probably extensively throughout their life as far as how traumatic it's going to be for them.

So I think their hearts might be in the right place, but they're just trying to make sure they make the right decision. And then couple that with what you just laid out with the system being so backlogged, probably not having, if they're going to remove the children, again, I don't know all the policies behind it, but if there's allegations of this, there might be a policy in place where the children are removed completely from that family, both the father and the mother for a short time so that investigators can decide what's fact from fiction. And again, the housing to take these three children, separate them from their parents and try to keep the children together while separated. I'm sure it's a logistical nightmare. There's

probably a lot of factors going into what is happening at this point in the story. I'm sure it is. But what's the harm in a social worker saying, you know what, I'll stay with the kids while you go get a mental health evaluation. That's okay. We're not taking them. We're not separating you. We want to avoid that at all costs. I'm going to stay with them. I'll make them lunch. You know, we'll have, we'll have like spaghetti. You go on in, have a mental health evaluation. Let's see if we can get you at your top peak performance so that you and your kids are happy and healthy there's so many ways that you can go about this rather than doing nothing and that's what happened here because Liliana's mother drove from LA where

she lived to Porterville on February 26th after Liliana began making these accusations and so I think what happened is Liliana called her mom and she was like, I think that my kids are being abused. You've got to get me out of here. And Liliana's mom, she doesn't know. Like, she's not been living it. She's not been with her daughter every single day. She doesn't know that she might be out of touch with reality completely. Or maybe she does.

And she's like, well, let me just get her here with me and things will get better. But she claimed that Liliana actually brought along the children's legal documents and Liliana told Eric that she could go to Mexico where she had family. And for several days after that, Liliana would not tell Eric where she and the kids were. So now he's very worried because he doesn't even know where they are. She says she's going to bring them to Mexico. She brought their paperwork and stuff with them. And to be honest, it would have been a much better outcome than what happened if she did have family in Mexico. And she took the kids like, yes, I don't want them to be away from their father, but I do want them to be alive where we can get authorities involved and figure out what the best

outcome is for this. Yeah, take them to Mexico for a a couple of weeks but um obviously this is also you know a pandemic i don't know how many people are just going in and out of mexico that would probably pose its own set of challenges right and eric again as i can say as a father you know knowing what we know so far that would not happen for me i'd be like absolutely not based on the condition you're in how do i even know you're really going to mexico how do i know i'm ever going to see the kids again if i let you leave so I could see how he would be resistant to that but I understand what you're saying at least if she really did have family there having her around other adult supervision to keep an eye on the kids is better than the situation with her

being alone with them so pros and cons to it but as a father I can see how Eric was completely against it oh I would be completely against it as a mother. You don't want to be have your kids be away from you in a different country. But after she said this, Eric called a mental health hotline and, you know, he said what was happening. And then he was contacted shortly thereafter by a social worker from Tulare County. And he explained to the social worker what was happening. And the social worker shared his concern about Liliana's paranoid and agitated mental state. And then they gave Eric instructions on how to petition a court to intervene. And so Eric was able to get an emergency court order in March, and the judge ruled that visits between Liliana and the kids would have to be monitored and supervised at this special facility in Porterville. So then Eric and his cousin Terry, Dr. Terry Miller, they go to L.A.

because I believe they got this emergency order in Porterville. They go to L.A. because they obviously want to let the Department of Children and Family Services as well as the LAPD know that now they have this order that Liliana's visits with the kids need to be supervised. So clearly a judge thinks that there might be cause to be concerned. Another judge thinks there's cause to be concerned that they want their, you know, their visits to be supervised. And they wanted to let the authorities in LA County know that Liliana was having a hard time mentally, that she'd taken the three kids, that she was hiding out with them somewhere in L.A. and nobody knew where they were.

Now, both Eric and Terry, Dr. Terry Miller, said that they had multiple meetings with L.A. County social workers, during which they both stated that Liliana should not be alone with her kids. They brought up this emergency order they had. And during one of these meetings, they learned that a social worker had actually visited with Liliana at some point although they were never told when or where however the social worker told them that they didn't believe Liliana would harm her children so you know this is once again where I'm where I'm a little torn here because this is a father who doesn't know where his kids are the social worker has clearly spoken with Liliana so probably knows where she is and he's kept in the dark about where

his kids are and he's just supposed to take this person's word who doesn't know him who doesn't know Liliana who doesn't know their their three children against his judgment of I'm you know been with this woman we have three children together. I think I know when she's acting normal and when she's not. And this complete stranger was like, well, you know what? I think they're fine. And you're supposed to just take that and be what? Comforted by it?

Like, oh, OK. Well, OK. Perfect stranger who does not know my family better than me. I'll take your word for it and leave my children with somebody I think they're not safe with. It's just a little bit frustrating. Yeah. And to think, I don't know who the social worker was or what their training or certifications are, but I do know that just like any job, there are individuals who are more qualified for certain areas than others. Not everyone who's a social worker is also a doctor, right? So it's one of those things where what was the qualifications of the social worker? What was their level of expertise? How much experience did they have? What were

their, you know, what were their concentrations in and were they qualified enough to make that, you know, that diagnosis or at least come to the conclusion that in their opinion, Liliana was not a danger to her children because clearly they were wrong. So I would say I would say no, they didn't have the right qualifications. I mean, listen, there's some people that are qualified and still get it wrong. It happens. Nobody's perfect. But I'm with you there that the social worker, because, again, there's some that have had a year or two on. They're out of college and they're they're they're thrown right into the fire because of the lack of, you know, social workers that they have. So I'd be interested to know that. Not that that one thing is why we are where we are today, but it is.

And it is. That's an interesting piece of information. Well, Liliana herself received the emergency court order. You know, she was I don't know if it was mailed to her or given to her sometime, but she received this court order on March 12th. And obviously, we know that this court order was basically telling her, like, you can't be with your kids without somebody else there. And she went to the West Valley LAPD station to basically say that she wasn't going to comply with the court order. And the LAPD, I guess they just were like, okay, they didn't do anything about it. And then during March, Eric did figure out where Liliana and their children were. And both he and his cousin made repeated requests to the LAPD to take her in for a mental health evaluation.

But after the deaths of these three children, the LAPD made a statement that they'd been unaware of Liliana Carrillo. So they'd never visited her home. And Eric is a little upset about this, understandably, because they did speak to the police. They were like, this is where she's at. Can you bring her in for a mental health evaluation? Me, you, a court, a judge, they don't think that it's okay for her to be with the kids and now LAPD says no we had no idea that she she even existed and both Terry Eric's cousin and Eric they find this to be an outright lie because Dr. Terry Miller says that on one occasion they'd spoken to LAPD in a parking lot and there was two police officers there they even called in a supervisor and Miller said, quote, I told them she might kill the kids. It should be on their body cam video from that night, end quote. So

she's basically saying like, no, they knew that she existed because we met with them many times. And one of these times might actually even be on camera. So that's a lie. And I do see this when kids end up dying in their parents' custody. The police department in the state or the county or the police and CPS or DCFS, if they could take accountability and say, yes, we made a mistake and now we learn from this so we don't do it again, that would be much more productive. Yeah. And I'd also say too, with these court orders, because everyone's sitting here going, oh, why didn't the police enforce that? First and foremost, LAPD, it's unacceptable to say they haven't. Clearly, I believe Terry Miller 100% that they met with him and Eric as well that they had these conversations.

I don't think they would be saying it if they didn't. But just to double back to Liliana going to the police department and saying, hey, I'm not complying with this order. This is something that I saw quite often in my career where these court orders are issued by judges, but they're not arrestable offenses. They're basically the worst that happens is you're found in contempt of court. And so it's really, there's not much the police department can do to enforce those orders. And so all that happens is that individual, if they do show up to court say hey you know the judge will say hey did you do what i told you to do and they'll say no and the judge can find them in contempt or could just say well don't do it again and i i know from experiences i've had

in other situations not related to criminal cases where the judge tells someone not to do something they still do it and the judges the next appearance, the judge kind of just lets it slide. So there's not a real significant control from the law enforcement side to enforce these court orders for anybody who's asking that question out there saying, well, you know, she said right out to him, I'm not going to comply. Even though she said that in that particular situation, that scenario, the officer's hands are kind of tied because they're not, they're, they're not designed to be enforced by law enforcement, those particular court orders. I think in this case, there was also an issue with different jurisdictions. So I believe the court order was made in Porterville, which is a different

county than LA County. So also the police at that point are also going to feel like, well, how far can we go legally with this? And I think that a lot of this, a lot of these things, all of these reports and all of this stuff are being filed in different areas. And sometimes it takes a little bit longer for these different jurisdictions and these different departments to put two and two together and kind of make sense of it all. But I did hear did i read somewhere that that eric denton is considering suing um either la county or the police department i believe it was lapd like he seems very very unhappy with lapd specifically out of everybody because it does seem like you know for weeks leading up to this he was driving all over all over California trying to get something to happen.

And he felt nobody did anything for him. I don't disagree with him one bit based on the side of the story that I'm hearing, based on how he's presenting it. If this turns out to be true, I think litigation and some legal action is the only way to go. Because what will happen, as again, as you said earlier, once people start getting into a courtroom even government agencies they start to they start to fold on each other right where is it the dfs is it is it lapd the truth's going to come out because there's going to be some type of paper trail there's a paper trail there's a paper trail and it's in the truth will come out and so i you know based on what i'm hearing unless that paper trail goes away you know what i mean no you're right you're right and but based on what we're hearing, if this was the result, my kids were killed because of their

inaction, whoever it may be, I'd be suing everyone. So yeah, no doubt about that. Let's take one final break before we finish the last part of this case. All right, we're back. So I do want to also go back to Dr. Terry Miller, Eric Denton's cousin. She she also went on to say, quote, medically speaking, this was a clear psychiatric emergency. If she came to my ER and the family told me of these delusions and concerns, I would have held her for psychiatric evaluation, end quote. But according to LAPD commander Alan Hamilton, the police department follows direction from DCFS in matters of child custody. And he said, quote, if DCFS told us they were going to the apartment and needed our help, we would have been there, end quote. So what we see here is a complete diffusion of responsibility. That's not my job. I follow their lead. They didn't tell me that

it was important that we be there. We didn't go there. That's what I'm hearing. I'll defend them here. I may get a little heat for this, but that's okay. I know we have a situation right now where we're talking about certain instances where social workers or psychologists are more qualified to handle certain calls than police officers. We're not trained to do it. And I do agree with you to the sense of like they're backing away from it. But I know from my experience that this is what would normally happen if it's not a criminal matter and it's something that's being handled.

There's already an open case on it. DCYF, that's what we refer to them here in Rhode Island, usually says, hey, this is Derek Levasseur from DCYF. I'm following up on a case on 123 Broad Street. Could you meet me over there? I just want you to be aware of it, document it. And obviously, they'd be there for my protection and the protection of everyone else. And we would automatically go. But there were many instances where they wouldn't call us. They get over there and then things start to get a little heated and all of a sudden they're calling us for someone to respond immediately and i'd get there and go well why didn't you call me initially and they'd say oh well we didn't think it was going

to go this direction now we're taking the kids based on what we're observing so now we need you here but the point i'm trying to make is there were many instances where dcyf wouldn't call us over and we'd never even know that they were in town. They were supposed to always notify us. Hey, listen, we're going to this address. No police assistant needed. But we just want to make you aware that we're out on scene. So it did fall through the cracks sometimes.

Again, I'm not I'm just trying to defend. But Eric went Eric went there himself to LAPD. I'm not saying like, oh, if the CPS or whatever, if they didn't contact the police, like that's fine. But Eric went there himself more than once. What we have here, I think, is a breakdown of responsibility. And this is what happens as societies become almost too big to sustain themselves. So as a police officer, I think, you know, when you're going into this, you want to protect and to serve. So if you have a concerned father, I think, you know, when you're going into this, you want to protect and to serve. So if you have a concerned father standing in front of you and he says, I think my girlfriend is going to kill our children.

She's saying that, you know, we're a part of a pedophile ring. She thinks she started the COVID-19 outbreak and you don't follow up on that. You are still responsible at some point and maybe not legally. I don't know. That's not my decision to make. But morally, I think you hear something like that, you spring into action. Three little children all under the age of five are in harm's way. So there has to be something. But we always do this. And this is what happens in bigger societies, the bystander effect, right? Oh, somebody else will take care of it. It's somebody else's problem, but then nobody else takes care of it. And this is what happens.

So if you keep saying somebody else takes care of it, nobody else takes care of it because they're thinking that somebody else is going to take care of it. And it's just this cycle where you have innocent people, children in this situation, nobody's riding in on a white knight a white horse to save them yeah no i mean again i'm biased but i will say just from i don't think you're biased no i think you're nice i think you're kinder than i am i think you're more understanding honestly it's just from so you know if i and we've had situations like this i have personally dealt with situations like this not to this extreme but where one parent would come in and accuse the other parent of not being fit to take care of the children, you know, never to the extreme of, oh, I think they're going to kill them.

But I can tell you in all of those circumstances, the first thing that I would do, because it's not technically, I'd still go over there. Exactly. That's what I'm saying, Derek. I know you would. As a well-being I know you would. the conditions that were under, the first thing I would do before responding over there for an immediate check would be to call, you know, obviously I'd make sure everyone's safe. But the first thing I would do, because there's no criminal matter there to enforce, I would automatically contact DCYF to get them involved because they have the ability

to remove the children where in most cases I don't, because it's, that's not what we do. We don't have housing for it. We don't, that's not what we do. We don't have housing for it. That's not our area of expertise. So I will say this, and I want people to weigh in on it because I see Stephanie shaking her head. Just at the point where I'm at, from my experience, and you guys may be disagreeing with me, I think Stephanie might, I got to put, if I have to put blame at someone's feet, the order in which it would go from my experience would be if you come to the police department, the police department would contact DCYF. DCYF would take the case over from that point and make a determination whether those children should be removed or not. They did not do that. And to the point where one of the social workers told Eric to his face, I don't think that

Liliana is going to hurt the kids. So I do think some fault falls on the police department. They could always do more. But if I have to put the blame at someone's feet at this point, I'm sorry. DC, you know, DCF is where I'm putting it. I mean, I feel like if they worried less about pulling people over and writing tickets and more about actually like the well-being of people. I mean, but honestly, like, you know that i know that the majority of revenue and police departments come from traffic stops i get it so you want to make your money no cops don't want to stop i gotta no cops don't i no you don't but i mean you're told to no right you have a quote you you're not i know we do not have a quota i was a supervisor we do not have a quota and in fact i can tell you

that one of the biggest things for me was I didn't stop anyone. And when I did stop people, a lot of the times we always have discretion. I would always choose to let them go because as someone who grew up in the city where I worked, I didn't grow up with a lot. And a $75 ticket to my family, one of six, was detrimental to the budget, a $75 ticket. So I always looked at it from that perspective and gave everyone a break. And I got talked to about that a few times, you know, but again, we're not going to go all the way there. But personally, I just... Well, I mean, that's interesting. I am actually interested to hear that because I've always been

under the understanding that the majority of the revenue comes from traffic. I would agree with that. I think traffic citations, but again, it goes to the courts more than unless it's written to the city. Because there's two different types of tickets. You can have Rhode Island Traffic Tribunal or you can have a state ticket. And if it's not issued as a municipal ticket, like an ordinance within the city, the city that writes that ticket doesn't get the majority of that money. But that's a whole thing we can talk about on an IG live or something one day, if anyone's interested in

talking about it, that's something I'm very familiar with. But overall, my point was, I do based on everything you've explained to me, and based on how I've handled situations in the past, we could always do more. And I'm sure these cops felt horrible after hearing what happened. I would hope they did. But I do got to say the person who should feel the worst is the person who told that father to his face, the social worker that I didn't think she was going to hurt him. I think they're all, I think they're all equally to blame. Like there's no hierarchy of blame here. I just think that if the police had gone there and you know if they'd seen something that would have helped dcfs you know they could have called

dcfs and being like okay i know you don't think that there's an issue here but i do feel like this woman is a little bit unstable she could definitely use like a mental health evaluation so that's just my two cents i did my part i can go home and sleep tonight. Guys, maybe this is why I'm not a cop. Guys, I want you to weigh in. These are the ones I like. Yeah, please let us know what you think. We want to hear from you. All right. So in early April, Liliana tried to get a temporary restraining order against Eric Denton. She accused him of sexually abusing their oldest daughter. She also made an abuse allegation against one of Eric's friends, Terry Miller, Eric's cousin. She says that Eric's denied all allegations, of course, and she said that the loss of his children after trying to save them for so many months has been

absolutely devastating. She said, quote, I mean, we're completely destroyed. Those kids were everything. I mean, his whole being, in essence, just revolved around those kids. He had his heart set on seeing the kids because he was supposed to pick the kids up and have them for a week end quote so this day that they died he was supposed to be picking them up to have them for a week so that's the one thing that kind of you know it seems very I don't want to say this because I really do feel bad for everybody involved in this including Liliana but I've seen this happen where when the mother or the father, whoever ends up killing the kids, knows that it's about to be the parents weekend, that's when they do it almost as like just an extra little knife to the gut. Yeah. No, I, she felt like she was going to have to let the kids

go again. And in her mind, the way it was processing things, she just couldn't stand the idea of them, those kids going with this dangerous person who was doing these terrible things to him so yeah i like that you pointed that out there because you and i are very hard on offenders especially when it comes to children but i'm really happy that you said it the way you just said it because you know and we'll probably sum this up at the end but liliana you know terrible what she did but there was some underlining issues there that were out of her control and anybody who's dealt with people with mental illnesses know that a lot of what was occurring was was something out of Liliana's control at that point and there was

some underlining factors that again we don't approve of it of course but it's tough to look at it and see her the same way we might see a Darren Schillmiller, right? So, you know, so that that's the I'm glad you I'm glad you worded it that way, because I completely agree. And I mean, people who know me, and you know, listen to me regularly, you guys know, I'm not new to this world, you know, I'll be the first person to point out that I think somebody is using the mental health defense to try to get away with something. It happens, okay? I think it happens way more than you actually have mentally ill people committing crimes. There's people who are not mentally ill saying they are so they can get away with it.

And I'll be the first person to say, yeah, I think that's what's happening here. I don't think that's what's happening here. I saw this woman's interview. We'll link it. We can put it on Instagram or something too. But if you watch it, she's sobbing. She's wrecked. You know, it's horrible.

And she speaks with such conviction. I don't think unless she's, I mean, I know she's living in LA, but this is an Academy Award winning performance if she's lying. And I'm not going to say if she is or not. I don't know. Like I'm not, that's not my job. It's up to the courts to decide this and the jury. But I do believe that she believes it.

And there's even signs that she may have been struggling with something for a little bit longer because it seems she'd also been writing a blog, and this blog was called Blog for Good, and you can't find it anymore, but I used the Wayback Machine. I got some excerpts of it and also some articles had some excerpts from it but it seemed like she had a big problem with the television show Teen Mom which I mean who doesn't have a problem with that show. It was just awful garbage television but the way she goes at it it just seems like she maybe cared a little

bit too much she took it a little too personal so in 2013 she wrote quote my sister watches this crap and i got stuck eating lunch in the living room with her they are involved in heavy drugs cannot escape them and then cry about how they can't access their chill their child i mean really all of these mothers that have been presented have, in my opinion, and forgive me if this offends anyone, but it is my opinion and I hold strongly to it, just idiot after idiot. I do not feel pity for them. There's no denying that there are a few mothers in the show who progress from their situations and grow from their troubles, but there are others that I am shocked as to how they still have custody of their child, end quote. That's a little twist.

I mean, considering what goes on to happen. But like I said, it just seemed like she would get very passionate about things and almost just internalize them. So I don't know who really gets that upset about Teen mom. Also, I mean, I was a teen mom. So there was more understanding for me in there. You know, the show, I hated it. I was like, oh my God, this is really bad because I was a teen mom, but I was never like this. You know, I remember the one girl, you probably never watched it, but the one girl just crying about how she was going to miss her Kesha concert because she was getting arrested again or something.

It was just very, very bad. But I would never really rant about it in this way where I'm like, they are all idiots, idiots, because they're still teen moms, right? And no, nobody's born being good at motherhood. I know this is a thing people think like women are just born and we're all nurturing and maternal and we're just going to be great moms. No, it takes a lot of work. And when you're a teenager, you're just not, you're not really just made for it at that point. So she was rough on them. And then to see what goes on to happen to her.

And, you know, I don't want to do this to her. I don't want to say like, how did this woman hold on to custody of her kids for this long it's it's unacceptable so i don't know what do you think about it i think you nailed it when you first started talking about it which you know again you have a personal experience with it you're going to view these things different than she did but she was a she was concerned with these people on tv uh to an unhealthy level and again not everyone who gets so caught up in these shows because you know i was on another with these people on TV to an unhealthy level. And again, not everyone who gets so caught up in these shows because I was on another show that some of you guys out there know about. It's called Big Brother.

And I can tell you that the fans are very passionate about that show because they feel like they know you. It's a reality show and I'm not an actor. So people got really obsessed with our relationships in the house, even our lives afterwards. So I can see how, you know, a lot of people do that. And it doesn't necessarily mean they have a mental health condition. But as you said. No, but you said they were fans, right? She wasn't a fan. She didn't watch this show. Well, there were people that definitely watch Big Brother just to hate, too. I can tell you that much. There are people that go on just it it's an unhealthy thing. And so, but again, knowing. Sure. We got a couple of those people listening right now. Hey guys, you guys are great. No, you know, definitely some big brother people, but, but yeah, so I see where you're going with

it and knowing what we know now in hindsight, it's always good to look back and see if you can, I think it's great conversation to try and pinpoint early indicators of something being wrong. It may not always be right, but we should always go back and try to learn from it and see what type of behavior did Liliana display that maybe future social workers and future police officers can look at when going through these situations and try to look for similar behavior so that maybe we can prevent this from happening again. Yeah, and I do think this came out of nowhere for everybody around her, you know,

because her sister said that Liliana was a great mother, loved her kids. Even, I think I have a quote later from a friend of Eric's, but even a friend of Eric's was like, I don't understand, you know, she loved those kids. So I do really think that this came out of nowhere. She seems to have, for obviously the majority of her time as a mother, been a great one, which makes it almost worse, in my opinion. And it's just very unclear about how these kids died

too. You know, it was one thing during the interview that Liliana did not seem interested in talking about. She talked at length about any of the other questions the reporter had, but when he said, walk me through that day, she, she started crying and she said, I don't want to, you know, I can't. She did say that while she was committing these murders, she was gentle. She said she did it in the most gentle way possible um which i'm not from what i see about about what came out after it i'm not quite sure that was the truth but she said she held them and she kissed them and she told them that she loved them and she was sorry and the reporter asked you know what did they say back to you and this was the part of the interview where i broke

a little bit and she kind of choked up and she cried and she said, how could they say anything? Because she's killing them as she's doing this. So how can they speak back to her? And I think it was this moment where she was reminded, my children will never speak back to me again. No matter how much I say into the universe and into the sky that I love them and I'm sorry, they'll never answer me. And you could see it in her face and it was just very impactful and I broke a little bit. But as I mentioned earlier, two of the three children showed signs of drowning. She claimed in this interview that she had drowned all three of them and all three had injuries that suggested they'd been bludgeoned. But there's also reports that they were stabbed. Eric's friend said that Liliana had stabbed them,

and she told The Sun that she hopes Liliana gets life without parole or the death penalty, saying, quote, I just can't understand how she was able to do what she did. I know she loved her babies, end quote. After the children's grandmother found them, and this is even really awful because Liliana's mother was at work and then she came home around 9 30 in the morning Liliana's not there but her three grandchildren are in their dead and from what I can tell this was a very very bad scene very grotesque and apparently the scene was so horrific that the responding police officers and first responders

are now having to receive emergency counseling. And these first responders, they arrived at the apartment just hours before Eric was supposed to, you know, come and pick up his two daughters and his son. Liliana had already fled the scene in her car. She said that she had left because she was trying to find a cliff that she could drive off in order to join her children but she crashed her car on highway 65 which is north of bakersfield california and then when a man a good samaritan he's been referred to he stopped to help her she stole his pickup truck so the man whose truck she stole happened to be the friend of the tulare county sheriff mike boudreaux is, you know, kind of like a small world, right? And Mike Boudreau went on and he was like, yes, this guy will help anybody, you know, but when Liliana was interviewed,

the reporter asked her, you know, what happened? Did you steal his car? What did he say? And she said, he asked if I needed help. And I said, I don't want help. So very, very tough. She was arrested around 2.30 in the afternoon. So several hours after she left the apartment tough she was arrested around 2 30 in the afternoon so several hours after she left the apartment she was arrested in the ponderosa area after she crashed this car that she had now as well and at first they just arrested her for stealing the car it wasn't until they brought her back to the police station and booked her that they realized she had a warrant out for her arrest for the murder of her three children and she's been charged with three counts of murder as well as an allegation of using a knife as a deadly and dangerous weapon on her

youngest child so that's where i kind of don't know what she what she means by gentle the most gentle way possible why on the youngest she was only six months old it's just do you do you believe that she was in fact uh fleeing to try and kill herself so that's kind of where i'm i'm i'm thinking that she's not being honest about that um because if you wanted to kill yourself then you would have just stayed there with your children and taken your own life you know if you really were concerned about being with them i feel like you would have just done it there like a murder suicide you don't need to drive anywhere to drive off a cliff you know this isn't belmont louise we don't need the dramatics if you were able to to kill your

children then you would have been able to do it to yourself so i do think she was just trying to get away yeah um but she was also not you know mentally well so is she trying to get away because she's scared now she thinks like the sex ring is going to be after her. I don't know what she's thinking, but I don't I don't think that her first thought was let me find a cliff to drive off of. Yeah. When you just said that, that was perplexing to me because I figured that she just was apprehended at the house where the children were killed. And that was kind of the end of story. But to think that she fled the area is a really interesting curveball that I didn't expect because, again, to your point, in a lot of these situations, you have a murder-suicide where they take their children's lives, but immediately after they take their own. And we're not going to discuss the way she could have done that, but there are means to carry that out without a physical weapon to do so.

So very, very interesting. Because again, on one hand, you think this is a woman who is not thinking in a right state of mind, clearly capable of taking her own life if she felt that was what she wanted to do. And yet she chose to flee the area. And if she was looking for a way to kill herself when in a vehicle, I've seen it in the past. You could just drive as fast as you can into a wall and that's it. Game over for most people. So that's really, really interesting to me. It kind of contradicts everything that we've heard to this point as far as, you know, her mental stability and where her mindset was. It seems like in that moment,

she almost had a clear train of thought, right? I mean, am I wrong in saying that? I agree. And our minds work so similar because as soon as she said that in the interview it did take me back it like kind of i kind of stepped out of my body for a second i was like hold up wait yeah if you wanted to die and you wanted to be with your children which i i understand then why wait why drive away why leave them there alone you know so she did say several times in the interview that she she he kept asking her like do you regret it and once again she skirted around that question she never answered him directly she said things like I wish that it hadn't happened I hate that it happened I hate myself

for for what I had to do but it was the only thing I could do so she never comes right out and says I don't regret it but I do think that that is exactly what she's trying to get at like that was my only option so how could I regret that that was the only option to keep my kids safe how could I regret that and she also says multiple times that she's trying to find a lawyer who specializes in human trafficking to help her because she's still going to expose Eric and his sex trafficking ring. So she's trying to find somebody who is, you know, has knowledge and experience with that to help her. So I do think she's going to just obviously continue fighting this. I don't think she's even in the mental state to ever say, oh, wow, I was not

myself, you know, and that's why this happened, unless she does get some help and she's on medication. But until then, I mean, no, she's going to fight this. She'll go all out. And so I don't I'm not sure what I don't know. I will say this, you know, when you look back at it and everything that we've gone over and this is a long episode tonight and we did it in in one one episode so you guys might break it down in a couple segments to listen to it but you know my takeaway after hearing everything is you know it's not going to bring the kids back but all departments all agencies involved with this case LAPD DCYF you know everybody who was involved with this case from any standpoint, from an

agency perspective, this needs to be used as an example of how the passing of the buck or, you know, not following through, even though you've passed it off to another agency, you need to work in collaboration with each other once those agencies are involved. And there needs to be a clear, concise handling of it so that it's documented so that any particular point an agency can look up something, even if it's not their direct agency, to find out where it is in the process. So that is not the dropping of a ball where you have this woman who was able to do something like this after it had been reported to so many different people within a different government with the courts, social workers, LAPD, not one of them stepped up and acted on it. They all kind of, as you pointed out numerous times, they all kind of kept pushing the, kicking the ball down, down the field, right? Until it was too late. And this, I wish I could say that this is the only time this has

ever happened. And it may not only, and I'm not just talking about cases where kids are murdered, happens in a lot of situations where someone needs help, right? Just someone who is mentally disturbed, needs help. There's a couple opportunities where you could maybe, you know, intervene and help this person. You don't. And then that person ends up killing themselves and it was preventable. So there's a lot to take away from this case from an education standpoint, as far as people involved with these types of cases on a daily basis. And I hope that if there's anybody out there listening to this that works in law enforcement,

that works in social services, that works in the medical field, hell, if you work in the court system, there may be some judges listening to this. I'd rather, me as a civilian, I'd rather you err on the side of caution. I don't care of the short-term effects that may have, but it's always better to play it safe. And, and, and, and most importantly, protect the children who can't protect themselves, even if it's from their own parents. That's my takeaway.

Yeah. And it's very sad because, you know, she she says that she wants everyone to know that she loves her children. She felt that this was her responsibility. She said that she had promised her children since the moment they were born, since the moment she held them in her arms, that she would protect them. She stayed by their sides while they were in the NICU after two of her children were born and they had to go into the NICU. She stayed there every single day. She never left their sides. This was truly, I believe, the way she thought she could protect them. The only way she thought she could protect them. And just imagine for a moment, and I'm not usually like the person who's going to

make excuses for people who kill their kids, but just imagine for a moment that you love your children so much with every cell in you, with every fiber of your being, and you feel so caged, so cornered. You feel like there's not one other person around you who wants to help you and your children. You feel so vulnerable and defenseless that you feel this is your only option to save them. And just imagine the torture that she must have been like the mental prison that she was living in for weeks or for months before she did this. Because I can't imagine that it was a spur of the moment thing. I'm sure that it had come up in her mind many times before and she said, no, there has to be another way. There has to be another way until eventually she literally just felt so hopeless that this was

the only thing she could do. And that's torture. Yeah, that's a tough thing to imagine that that was the mental state she was in. Final question, and I'll let you go first here. You know, we talked about an individual thinking that she should get the death penalty. You and I have been very vocal in past cases about certain offenders. You're the judge in this case, or you're the jury in this case. What do you think should happen? Let's say she's found guilty. It's determined that she does have a mental illness.

I don't think that's a far reach for us to assume that. What do you think should happen with Liliana? I absolutely do not think that she should get the death penalty. I don't even think she should get life in prison. And listen, this is a lot coming from me. It really, really is. But if she is, I mean, you're looking here, this could be many things. This isn't just depression. This isn't anxiety. This is something much more serious. Not that depression and anxiety aren't serious, because I know y'all like to call me out for

everything, but this is just much more serious. She's having delusions. She's imagining things. She's got this whole world in her head that is the scariest place I can even imagine somebody feeling. You're just terrified all the time. And once she gets better, if she's given counseling and she's put on medication, she can absolutely be rehabilitated. And I do believe that she cares about her children and loves her children so much that there's no

worse punishment that she's going to have to deal with than walking through every day of her life with this. But Liliana believes that she's going to prison for life. She said, I know I's going to have to deal with and walking through every day of her life with this but Liliana believes that she's going to prison for life she said I know I'm going to prison for life I've accepted that that's what it is yeah I agree she doesn't seem upset about it I mean it's probably what she wants at this point you know I mean at this point I definitely agree with you I think death penalty will be off the table just if it's determined that she's unable to even you know function on her own so that'll probably be off the table just if it's determined that she's unable to even you know function on her own so that'll probably be off the table um definitely think she should probably be put into the medical you know wing of of a jail if that's what happens or you know a medical facility uh

psychiatric ward i don't know if she should ever be allowed back into society i don't know um but i will say this i do hope er Eric sues everyone. I really do. I really do. Because that's the only time you really see changes when government agencies, the people that monitor them, for example, LAPD or something, when City Hall has to cut a check for millions of dollars. Yeah, when it affects your pocketbook, you pay attention. Yeah, that's when people start to take notice. So I do hope, and this is coming from a former officer, I hope he sues everyone because it does seem like it could, I wouldn't even say this, it doesn't seem, it could have been prevented, right? And it's crazy to think about like, you know, the immunity that a judge

has and even police officers qualified. I mean, there's all these things where you got to start holding the agencies that, you know, hire these individuals and have them working for them, even DCYF. So I hope he sues everyone. And I'm going to be following up to see where that goes. Because again, as we just said, whenever someone starts to get sued and there's money involved, government agencies tend to make changes. And I do. I support and respect good police officers. I know they're out there. The job is hard. I wouldn't want to do it. I'm glad that there are people out there who do want to do it, who want to protect us because we need, you know, to be protected.

Otherwise, it's chaos. If there's nothing stopping anybody from doing anything, it's chaos. I've always had a problem with LAPD, number one. Okay, they seem to be the absolute worst. Like forever. Since like the black and white film days lapd has been notoriously corrupt and just lazy and shitty all right but i'm sure there's a couple good good cops over there all right so don't don't take my word for it but i'm sure there's a couple no you missed it you

missed your opportunity there i'm gonna hold you accountable don't come for me don't come for me that's what you should have said i got you guys i got you no they can come for me that's what you should have said i got you guys i got you no they can come for me that's what that was that was such a nice setup come for me lapd man come for me and we'll discuss the many many cases you've dropped the ball on and turn the other way on um what what i think is la is a big place okay there's so many freaking people that live there. You lose that community aspect. You lose that one-on-one aspect. We need to get back to community policing where the police officers who are in the streets actually live in those streets where they know those people, where they're like, Hey, Ted, Oh, your lawnmower is stuck. Hold on. I got some extra gas. You know,

this sounds stupid. Like why would a police officer be given Ted gas for his lawnmower? It's about caring for each other. It's about being there. It's about, hey, I know Mr. Rogers lost his job last month. So let me bring him like a freaking casserole. So he eats tonight. It's about taking care of each other. We have to be paying attention. We have gotten to a point in a society, especially big cities like LA and New York, where neighbors don't even talk to each other. They don't even know who the person is that's living beneath them or next to them. Nobody cares. Everybody wants to be in their little insular bubble. Nobody wants to deal with anybody. But you have to care about the people who live in your community. And we have to get cops back to the place where they're policing on a smaller level and they're policing the

communities that they live in that they care about. We need to make it personal. And that's my, that's my opinion. Don't come for me. There you go. Well, listen, we're, you know, I hope Liliana gets the help she needs. Right. And I also, uh, you know, I don't think he'll be listening to this, but our thoughts are with Eric for sure. Cause, uh, it seems like he had been trying from the beginning to prevent this. And what a horrible feeling it must be to know that, you know, just nobody would help. But we're thinking one day you're you're one day all of your children are wiped out. Most people go their whole lives and they don't lose a child. And he lost his entire family in one day. Yeah, that's awful. Yep. Nope. I hope I hope he takes legal action. And I at minimum to see, as you said, where the ball was really dropped.

Let's see the paper. Everyone bring out the paperwork. Let's not just talk about it. And let's see where the ball was really dropped. Let's actually physically look at who dropped the ball and let's hold them accountable. So, Eric, we're behind you. We got you, Eric. We got you, Eric, for sure.

And obviously, thank you, everyone, for checking this episode out. This is going to be a long one. We haven't even edited it yet, but I think we know this is going to be a long one. So we appreciate everyone who stuck around to the end for this one because, you know, we appreciate, you know, your time is valuable in a day. So to spend it with us on a Friday or on a Wednesday, if you're watching this on YouTube, we really do appreciate it. Thank you guys so much. And we will be back next week with another case. And let us know if you'd like us to talk about more current cases too, because I think that that's something that's missing. There's been a lot of cases come out lately,

and I think maybe we can touch on some current and ongoing ones as well, if you guys want our opinion on them, or just to have a discussion with us in the comments section. Let us know if that's something you're interested in. We will see you next week. Thank you so much. Take care.