Crime Weekly - S1 Ep3: The Disappearance of Jennifer Dulos (Part II)

Episode Date: December 18, 2020

Jennifer Dulos, a mother of five, is missing. Her estranged husband, and his new girlfriend, are seen on surveillance disposing of multiple garbage bags miles away from the last place she was seen. When police go through those garbage bags they find Jennifer's t-shirt, stained with blood. They find zip ties stained with blood. It's becoming abundantly clear that five children will waiting for their mother to come home that night, and she won't be walking through the door. Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

Jennifer Dulos, a mother of five, is missing. Her estranged husband and his new girlfriend are seen on surveillance, disposing of multiple garbage bags miles away from the last place she was seen. When police go through those garbage bags, they find Jennifer's t-shirt stained with blood. They find zip ties stained with blood. It's becoming abundantly clear that five children will be looking for their mother to come home that night and she won't be walking through the door. Hello and welcome to Crime Weekly presented by i-D. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur.

On this podcast, we do talk about difficult subjects. We're talking about real crimes and real people. And due to the graphic nature of some of this content, listener discretion is advised. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly presented by i-D. So, Stephanie, I've been kind of, you know, diving into the podcast space now that I guess we're in it, right? Yeah. Trying to, you know, see some other podcasts, see what's out there, see how we can make ours better, you know, be a little different and also learn from some of the other ones. And I stumbled across one from our partner in i-D called The Clown and the Candyman. It's a brand new podcast for ID. It's about the two infamous serial killers, Dean Corll and John Wayne Gacy.

Episodes are available weekly on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or obviously wherever you listen to your podcasts. And I won't lie, I saw the cover art. I'm definitely excited about this one. I love't lie. I saw the cover art. I'm definitely excited about this one. I love the title. I'm not a big proponent of glorifying serial killers, but ID has a good way of not doing that and being informative and having us take something from it. And that's why I love that we're partnered with them. So I'm really interested to see how they approach this one. It's funny because the clown and the candy man, not knowing what you're talking about, you would think those would be

positive images, but right off the bat, I was creeped out. So I'm definitely, definitely excited to check out this podcast, The Clown and the Candyman, brand new podcast from ID. And we're talking about Jennifer Dulos. This is part two. So if you haven't checked out part one yet, make sure you go check that out. We left off at a significant turn in this case, right? The video footage. Yeah. What were your thoughts on that, Stephanie, before we dive into it? I mean, this is the first real implication of Fotis.

My first thoughts are it just seems so dumb to be throwing all of this stuff in a dumpster, not really considering that there's surveillance cameras around, having their cell phones with them and turned on. I'm not trying to tell people how to commit a crime and get away with it, but I'm pretty sure we can all agree that we know GPS is on our cell phones and even in some of our vehicles at points, depending on how new they are or what model they are. But if you're really trying to get away with a crime, probably don't bring your cell phone at the very least. Turn it off. And it just felt so, I guess, sloppy.

Yeah. And desperation can definitely have an impact on your decision-making process. You're feeling like, man, there's blood in my car. There's hair samples. You think about all the movies you've seen. Maybe whatever happened didn't go according to plan. It was supposed to be a cleaner operation than this. And he had to kind of deviate from his original plan if he was in fact involved in this, allegedly. But yeah, he definitely made some mistakes. And we're going to dive into that

right now because this video was very, very significant and it was really a turning point in this investigation. So I want to go through each different point that you kind of brought up last episode and kind of dissected a little deeper. Yeah, that would be great. And it'll catch me up and everybody else up too. Right. So first things first, there's a man and woman who both look like Fotis and Michelle seen on video in the truck, right? And we talked about why they say they look like them but didn't positively identify them. We get it, right? But it was Fotis and Michelle, and we know that because their cell phone coordinates were later triangulated, and it confirmed that at least their cell phones were in that area at that specific time.

You see what I did there? I didn't say they were, but their cell phones, without a doubt, were in that area at that specific time. You see what I did there? I didn't say they were, but their cell phones without a doubt were in that area at that specific time. So their cell phones could have been with their doppelgangers. Right. Exactly. And you see what we're doing here? We're being objective, right? The investigators are being objective, but any reasonable person, AKA a jury member, because that's who they're preparing this for eventually, right? Is going to look at that and put two and two together themselves, right? So you have their cell phones in the area and you have two individuals who look exactly like them in the area. So they're saying what they want to say without saying it, right? So that's one big point.

Then you also have, in addition to that, you have the Black Ford Raptor, which Fotis drives. Again, so you have a person who looks like them with his girlfriend that, you know, the woman with him looks like her and you have the truck and the cell phone all at the scene when they're dumping off trash bags along this road. Very significant. A couple of the things I wanted to hit on the trash cans. They're later searched and they find the bloody clothing belonging to Jennifer. Yep. We know that in addition to the clothing, they find the sponges. We talked about this earlier, right? When we talked about the luminol test and cleaning the scene, what could they have used to clean up the scene?

Well, one thing we alluded to in the beginning of this last episode was the paper towels. There was about 12 rolls that were put in there by Lauren Almeida the night before Jennifer's disappearance and 10 were missing. So that's why we included that because it was very significant. The paper towels were clearly used to clean up the crime scene. But in addition to the paper towels, now you have these sponges found in these garbage cans, probably also used to clean up the crime scene. Then you have the zip ties. This is obviously tough to think about. We're going to talk about the zip ties in more detail later. But I think most people would assume, most reasonable people, zip ties in nefarious situations are usually used to restrain someone. So we'll get into that.

Now, you mentioned something about this area as far as like, why would you go there? Why would you do this on camera? Because obviously you're going to get caught, but it's clear to me that they thought they were doing it the right way. So this area is Albany Avenue, right? It's about four miles. And these two individuals who are believed to be Fotis and Michelle, according to the police, right? They made more than 30 stops along the way. So it wasn't like they just got out at one location, dumped everything they had in this location and moved on. They went to 30 different trash cans and sewer drains and dumped things here and there along that stretch to try to break up where all the stuff was located

in case someone found one particular thing, they wouldn't find the whole truckload of stuff that they had, right? So they were trying to be smart and out with the police, but they forgot one little detail that there wasn't only one camera. There was a ton of cameras all the way down that road. And I know we joked a lot about, last episode, I said, unless the guy takes his license and holds it up to the camera, you can't really 100% positively identify him. But one thing we didn't say earlier was in addition to the trash bags, right? This male individual who's believed to be Fotis, again, according to police, he shoved like an envelope in one of the sewer drains. And luckily, the police were able to recover that later. And inside that envelope was registration plates belonging to Fotis Dulos.

What an idiot. Yeah, I think it's fair to say that he wasn't very smart in the way he disposed of, you know, the evidence in this case. And I think when you're looking at it again right, I don't think there's a person on this earth, whether it's a investigator or a jury member, who's not going to look at the series of facts that we just laid out here and come to the conclusion that Fotos, Dulos, and Michelle Tricanis were in fact in that area and were disposing of what appeared to be evidence in a crime. So let me get this straight. 30 different garbage cans?

Approximately 30 different garbage cans. Were these like residential garbage cans, like outside of people's houses? I don't think so. You got me there. You got me there. I was looking at the affidavit. It didn't say whether Albany Avenue was a residential area or like, you know, it's in Hartford.

So it could be. It could be. But it could also be just, I would think, 30, probably. Probably some residences to have that many in that short span. But Albany Avenue, I believe, is a main road. Doesn't mean there weren't houses on it. So, did he bring the garbage cans there, or were they already there? I guess that's what I'm confused about.

Were they already there? Oh, yeah. No, they were already there. They were out, and he was just driving along that road, dumping them into individual garbage cans. So why would he do that? Why would he take an envelope with the registration plates that have his name on them and leave the envelope, whether it was in a storm drain or not,

at the same scene where he's dumping all this other evidence? Was this a mistake? No, I don't think it was a mistake. And again, I was going a lot off the warrant, but if I had to guess as an investigator, I actually think this might've been a little reversed. What I think happened was that investigators were able to get his cell phone GPS coordinates for those days and saw that his cell phone was in that area during that time. So what they did is they went down to that area and grabbed every DVR that they could, every amount of surveillance footage that

they could to see what he was doing there. And when they did, this is when all this video started coming out. So I think he thought that the fact that he was in Hartford, Connecticut, when the crime occurred in New Canaan and he lives in Farmington, that they would never think to look in Hartford. But I think he didn't anticipate the idea that they were going to go and get his GPS coordinates from his cell phone. But why leave the envelope with the registration plates? Why would you be trying to get rid of those? Well, I think because maybe they were used on the truck. I mean, we don't know. They were used on the other truck. I also read something, I didn't include it in here, that the registration plates were altered. So they used like a piece of tape to cover up one of the letters or numbers

on the plate to alter the registration so that if someone saw it, it looked like it was a different combination than what it in fact was. So they could have been using the commission of the crime. So they tried to be smart about it. They got there like 25% of the crime. So they tried to be smart about it. Yep. They got there like 25% of the way. I also wanted to bring up that at some point after a homeless man discovered a folding hunting knife in one of the trash bins that were along Albany Avenue that the investigators believe might have been the murder weapon. This homeless man traded it to another man known as Fudge, and Fudge told the Hartford Courant in an exclusive interview that he sold it to an unknown person for $10. Now, this knife has never been found. How tedious and time-consuming and

honestly disgusting do you think it was for authorities to search these trash bins hours after the garbage bags were disposed of? What's the protocol when having to search through trash evidence? Have you ever had to do this, like go through trash bins with like dirty diapers and gauze? What else? It's interesting that you just said dirty diapers. Actually, my worst story with trash involved dirty diapers. In fact, I won't go too far down the rabbit hole, but essentially I was investigating a child molestation at a daycare. And at this specific daycare, the daughter was coming home and to keep it PG, there were things in the diaper, there was blood in the diaper that suggested that she was being molested at daycare. And what helped me out as the

investigator was all the daycare workers had to sign an initial every diaper that they changed. And there was a log of all the diaper changes, right? So literally when the parents come in and tell me this, they say, something's up. I think someone's doing something to our daughter at school, but she's very young. I'm not going to say her age, very young. I immediately go over to the daycare and I noticed this big, like the big commercial size dumpsters where it's like a week's worth of trash in there. And by the way, this is the middle of the summer. It's like a hundred degrees out. So immediately I call public works and I'm like, grab that dumpster, bring it to the station. So we bring it to the station and there's probably 30 bags of trash in

there. And they're basically a week's worth of dirty diapers. And there's 30, 40 kids that go to the school. So it was hundreds and hundreds of dirty diapers. So I individually with a couple guys help, we laid out every single diaper in the basement of the police station and organized them by initials. And what I was able to find out was that every diaper changed by one specific person. The diaper after that change always had blood in it. So long story short, to put a positive ending on this, brought the woman in. It was a female. Got her in an interrogation room,

broke it down. She admitted to it. But again, to get there, we had to go through all those diapers. It was the, it was the linchpin in the case. And I remember not to be graphic, but literally taking breaks to go throw up outside and then coming back and continuing, because obviously we had to go through a lot of diapers that had nothing to do with it in order to find the ones that did. It's crazy. You got to do it. But as soon as I read this, that's immediately what I thought of. So you pretty much think it's going to be dirty work for them no matter what. Oh, yeah. But it's necessary.

It's what we're trained to do. And honestly, garbage, in a lot of my cases, has been very helpful because garbage, for those of you who don't know, once it's put on the sidewalk, it's considered abandoned property. So that's a goldmine for detectives. And you're probably not reaching into the garbage cans, right? In case there's anything sharp in there, you're going to have to dump everything out first. We do. It's called the trash pull. I'm giving away my secrets here, but we pull up at like four o'clock in the morning before the garbage guys get there. We usually have a tarp inside a van or a truck or whatever. And we literally will dump the trash can into the van on the tarp and just drive off.

And then we search it at the station. But you're driving back to the station filled with a van full of trash. It's fun. It's good times. Usually the rookie has to do that. Well, you leave their garbage can at the curb, right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. For the next time that we have to snatch it.

Well, due to the totality of the evidence collected in the case up to this point, Fotis and Michelle were arrested on June 1st, 2019, and they were charged with tampering with or fabricating physical evidence and hindering prosecution, but they pled not guilty to the charges. Both were released on bond and they were ordered to wear GPS monitoring devices. Even though they had pled not guilty, investigators still knew, like you said, they had all this information. They knew it was them, but you know, there's only so much they can do to hold them. So they start to build their case. And as they're doing so, another vehicle comes into the equation based on a collection of new video surveillance. The vehicle eventually was linked

to one of Fotis' employees, Powell Gameni. Now, it's important to note that although Powell's vehicle became an important part of the case, he was never considered a suspect. Derek, I know that you researched this piece on the case extensively, right? Yes. Yes, I did. And this was some really good investigative work. This is the type of stuff that I read about. And it just makes me really excited to be a detective because this is the type of police work you always want to kind of put on a pedestal because it's really great job. So the vehicle that belongs to Powell is a red Toyota Tacoma. Okay. And as you said earlier, Jennifer Suburban was found parked on the side of the road, and the road's called Lapham Road near Waveney Park. It's a busy road, so obviously investigators were hoping someone saw who left the truck there, saw who left Jennifer's truck there, and they wanted to look into that further.

So here's where the police work that I was just talking about gets really good. You know how a lot of school buses nowadays, they have cameras right in the bus, right right? That look at the students. So it's there to keep an eye on them. You know, if anything comes up, these cameras are directed at all the kids sitting behind the bus driver, right? So the police were able to obtain the videos from the buses that drove down Lapham Road that day. And if you look at the footage, this is what's really incredible. If you look at the footage, you see the interior of the bus. However, investigators were able to use the rear view mirror that you can see in one of the angles of the camera to look through the rear view mirror of the bus and see the side of Lapham Road to see where Jennifer's

truck would have been parked. It's incredible. Really good police work. I don't know who thought of it, but my hat is off to him on that one. Yeah, that's crazy because I've seen some of that bus footage. I have had an incident with one of my children where I had to view the footage and it's not good. It's grainy. It's stuttery. It's not good. So, I mean, they were definitely going all out here. They were trying to cover all their bases. And I think they did. And on one video around 7 a.m., there's no vehicle in a small turnoff near the area where Jennifer's truck was located about 100 feet away.

Then on a different video, 40 minutes later, there is a red pickup truck parked there. At 7.57 on another video, it's still parked there. Now keep this in mind. While all this is going on, there's another surveillance video from a neighborhood surveillance camera that shows Jennifer Suburban returning home at approximately 8.05 a.m. after she dropped her kids off at school. Then at 10.25 a.m., that same surveillance camera sees Jennifer Suburban leaving the house. Right. And it's important to note that it's later found out that in this video that you're seeing Jennifer Suburban leave the house. Police believe at this point that the offender was driving Jennifer's vehicle with Jennifer inside the vehicle at that point, maybe incapacitated or at minimum restrained.

Could she have been dead at that point, maybe incapacitated or at minimum restrained. Could she have been dead at that point? Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. But that would suggest no reason for zip ties, right? And we're going to go into that. So that's why I think the zip ties are a big factor here, because if the person's dead, why do you need to restrain them? Unless they were used to restrain her inside the house. During the assault? Yeah. It's possible. It's possible. But this happened, you know, the assault and the cleanup happened all within like a two-hour window. So, we may never know. We may never know now what we're going to go through with the rest of this

case. But that was just an important note that, yes, you see the car leaving the suburban, leaving at 1025, but the police do not believe Jennifer was driving the vehicle at that point. Okay. Well, now back to that red Toyota. At 11, 12 a.m., this vehicle is seen heading north on Merritt Parkway. And this is the route you would take to go back to Fotis' property in Farmington, Connecticut. And there is multiple other cameras that investigators use to follow the Tacoma's path all the way to its final destination. One at 1125 a.m., one at 1140 a.m., another one at 12 p.m., and then finally one at 1222 p.m. This footage is important because it's another neighborhood surveillance camera, but this time it shows the red Tacoma pulling into the driveway of 80 Mountain Spring Road, which is a house owned by Fotis' real estate company,

The Four Group. And it's very close to the house that he had lived in with Jennifer and his kids. I think it's just a five minute drive. So obviously this red Tacoma becomes a major part of the story for police. So they go to speak with Paolo Giumanni. And when they speak with him, he tells police that he's a project manager at The Four Group, and he's been with the company since 2016. He went on to state that his red Tacoma had some mechanical issues, but was reliable enough to make it to 80 Mountain Spring Road, which is where Fotis told him to park because the truck was leaking oil. He would then leave his vehicle at the residence with the keys inside and take a work truck for the week. So on the day of Jennifer's

disappearance, Powell was operating Fotis' Ford Raptor for the day. And Derek, is this the same Ford Raptor that we see on Albany Road? Yep, absolutely. And side note here, police were able to use the Ford Raptor's GPS, its internal GPS for like, you know, low jack or whatever they use in the Ford. I think it's, I think in Ford, I have a Ford Raptor, it's Ford Sync. But they were able to use that, you know, if a car gets stolen, they were able to use that to confirm what Powell was saying about him being the one driving the truck to different job sites. Okay. So he's driving the Ford Raptor. However, when he returned back to 80 Mountain Spring Road, where he'd parked his Tacoma,

he sees Fotis and Michelle, and they're standing outside. And they appear to be surprised to see him. When he asked, you know, what are you guys doing? They stated that they were cleaning some stuff outside, but Gemini didn't observe any cleaning products around them. He also noticed that the keys to his pickup truck, the Tacoma, were sticking out of the passenger door lock. The three then left in three separate vehicles, and they headed to 4 Jefferson Crossing,

which was the house that Fotis shared with his wife and his children, and also the location of 4 Group office. And they did this so that Fotis could drop off his Chevy Suburban, and then Powell could give him a ride back to 80 Mountain Spring Road. It should be noted that the Tacoma was not one of the vehicles that were taken. So they all leave at the same time, but Powell's Tacoma, which is allegedly leaking oil, it stays there. It stays behind. Nobody touches it. When they leave it, the keys for the Tacoma are still,

according to Powell, in the passenger side lock. Okay. So now after making the trip and returning to Mountain Spring Road, Powell stated that when he attempted to grab the keys for the truck, which he'd seen in the passenger door just a few minutes earlier. Remember, these two houses are not far away from each other. They weren't gone. They just weren't there anymore. And that's when Fotis offered to let him keep the Raptor for the night. What a good guy.

What a nice friend. So what do we think? That these keys got swiped at some time before they even left? Well, you're going to see in about 10 seconds. Okay. Well, Powell stated that he wanted to take his truck because he was going to use it to transfer to dirt bikes. So he's like, I don't want your Raptor.

I want my car. Exactly. Right. Powell stated that Fotis then called Michelle Traconis and told her to bring the Tacoma keys back, which she did. That's weird, right? Very weird. And it makes sense when you start, again, we're assuming here, this is our opinions.

Again, we're painting a picture, but it seems to me, in my opinion, that maybe Fotis and Powell kind of left a couple seconds earlier. They had this plan all along to make Powell take the Ford Raptor home. So she took the keys with it because they didn't want anybody inside that vehicle. Right. But when Powell was insistent on it, he told her to come back. He probably said, oh, we can't push this too hard. It's going to be obvious. So he tells Michelle, who must have grabbed the keys before they even left. Right. Bring him on back. And this obviously doesn't seem too strange to Powell at the time because he's not looking at it in hindsight like we are. No, he's not. He's not.

But again, a couple of things to break down here just to remind everyone, right? So they're standing outside saying they're cleaning, no cleaning supplies. There's keys in the passenger side door of the truck. Remember, Powell didn't put the keys in the passenger side door of the truck. He left them inside. So that right there is a clear indication that someone went in his truck and at minimum moved the keys to the passenger side door. Why would you do that if you hadn't been driving it at some point, right? Then you have Fotis trying to convince him not to take the Tacoma home that night. Hey, I'll give you my truck, buddy. Don't bother taking your truck. I want to keep it for one more night. that, you know, he wanted to continue cleaning it, right? He wanted to continue cleaning it. And then. Why did he want to continue cleaning it though? What was it dirty? Because initially Powell said that he left it there because it was leaking oil. Right. And that's the thing at this point, Powell doesn't know what's occurred with that Tacoma, right? And he doesn't know what's inside that truck at that point. It's not dirty per se,

but it was used in the commission of a crime. So I guess Fotis at that point really wants to go through the truck and make sure that he's removed anything that could have been left behind. In fact, I was reading in the warrant that Michelle actually stated in one of her interviews that it looked like Fotis was cleaning a quote unquote coffee stain in the truck. Coffee stain. Okay. Well, fast forward to May 29th, Powell again leaves his Tacoma, but this time at the four group office, which is the house that Fotis lived at with his kids and his wife. I want to keep reminding everybody of the differences of these properties. And when he returned later that day, he noticed that his truck was missing.

He wasn't even there at all. So he called Fotis. He's like, where's my truck? And Fotis says, oh, I had taken your truck and I'm having it detailed. So is that strange? At any point, is Powell like, why does Fotis like my truck so much all of a sudden? Right. And to be really specific here, I think Fotis said he went to get it washed at the car wash. He tried to make it seem like it was a really specific here. I think Fotis said he went to get it like wash at the car wash. Like he tried to make it seem like it was a really like minimal thing. He, you know, Paul later figured out really quickly that the car wasn't just washed. Like the exterior, like the car was, the car was detailed and you know, that was obviously another red flag for him. But yeah,

your boss taking your car without your permission to have it clean for you. If you have a boss out there that'll hire me and do that, sign me up. I'm ready. Just out of the goodness of his heart, you know, I thought I would get it. I thought I would get it cleaned for you. And then he returns the truck, Fotis returns with the truck and then tells Powell, you know, I think you should change out the seats in this truck. And apparently Powell didn't think much of it at the time. Yeah. I think he was just like, you know, he was in my truck. He thinks it's dirty or whatever. Like, you know, I think he acknowledged it, but was kind of like not really giving it much thought. Wow. Weird. But then again, okay. On May 30th, Fotis told Powell that he should just go to the

junkyard to buy replacement seats for the truck, but he should buy them in cash. And then he would reimburse Powell for the cost of the new seats later. This is getting weird. I don't understand why Fotis didn't just, I guess, change out the seats himself when he had the truck. Maybe he didn't have enough time because Powell kept asking about it. Yeah, I think, again, he thought he was smarter than he was. He was trying to manipulate the situation to have someone else actually become an accessory to whatever crime was committed without even knowing they're doing it. You know what I mean? Gives Fotis a level of separation from the crime itself. But he can't even like put out money for new seats. He has to tell this guy to go to the junkyard and get replaced. He's awful. Oh my goodness. Well, on May 31st, after Fotis,

I guess, brings up again that he should go to the junkyard, Powell did go to the junkyard, but he was unsuccessful in finding any seats that would work. And I don't know how this works. I don't know. You just go to the junkyard and you walk around and look through the junkyard or is there somebody you can talk to and tell them what you're looking for? I don't know. Yeah. Tell them the make and model of your car. They can usually point you in the right direction. They usually organize the junkyards by make, model, years, and you can usually find something similar, but clearly there was nothing there that would work with his make and model and year of his Tacoma. That's pretty

interesting that you can just go there and it's kind of organized. You wouldn't think the junkyard is organized, but- Not all of them, but some of them, yes. The best ones. The ones in Connecticut are really good. Yeah. Well, Powell comes back and he doesn't have new seats for the car. And he notices that Fotis is clearly not happy about this. So Powell asks him right out, you know, why are you so worried about like my truck? And why are you so concerned about the seats? And why did you have my truck detailed? Finally, he's putting the pieces together.

This is all dawning on him. And Fotis eventually tells Powell that when he went to Jennifer's house on Mother's Day, he hugged her and he also held her cat. And he was concerned that one of Jennifer's hairs could be found in the truck. And at this point, Jennifer's missing, right? She went missing on May 24th. So this is about a week afterwards. And Fotis is telling Powell, like, I did see her.

And I'm worried that I pretty much put trace evidence in your truck. And that's why I want you to change out the seats. So again, Fotis Dulos tells Powell to change out the seats and get rid of the old ones so no one would ever find them. That's a direct quote from the warrant from Powell's interview. That's exactly what, according to Powell, what Fotis said to him. Super awkward. What would you do if your friend said that? I mean, I can't ask you because you're a police officer, but just your run-of-the-mill

person, even just an average person is going to be thinking this is strange. And Fotis was known to kind of have a temper. Fotis was known to be vindictive. He'd gotten into it with the neighbors before. There's stories of him really just getting into people's faces and yelling at them. So there's chances that Powell knew his employer had a little bit of a short fuse and he knew something wasn't right. So he did as Fotis asked and he changed the seats with the seats from Fotis' old Porsche, but he kept the old ones and he placed them in a garage at his residence. So he didn't throw them out. He didn't get rid of them and put them where no one could find them. He kept them as a backup plan, just in case. Smart move. Smart move. And I'm sure, obviously critical in this case, as we're going to discuss, but smart move for his own self-preservation because, as we'll learn, this

became a critical part of this investigation. Just to go into a little bit more detail on the specifics, the car wash that was used by Fotis was Russell Speeder's car wash. And as I said earlier, this wasn't just, you know, he didn't just go there and have a wash done. He actually had the truck detailed. He brought it there, he dropped it off and left it there while they detailed this old Tacoma. And what's interesting is according to police, Michelle initially told them that Fotis said he was doing this because Powell was selling his truck and she just went there to pick him up because Fotis called her and said, hey, I'm getting Powell's truck detailed. He's selling it.

Can you come pick me up? That's what she originally said. But however, there was footage from the car wash, right? There's footage from the car wash, not only from the exterior, but also the interior of the car wash facility. And later, she actually admitted to police, according to the warrant, that she followed him to the car wash and then waited in the parking lot for him to come out. And then later in the day, she received the phone call from the car wash stating that,

hey, the truck's clear. You can come pick it up. It's done. So story definitely changed a little bit there. And it gives more credence to the idea that Fotis was really trying to clean this truck as much as he possibly could while Powell was still technically in possession of it, right? He was just leaving it there during the day. And Fotis was trying to finish what he started without Powell's knowledge. Unfortunately, it didn't work because he came back to the office

and saw the truck was missing. As far as the seats, a couple of things here that you mentioned, they really raised some red flags. You have him wanting to buy different seats at the junkyard in cash, obviously no trace of this purchase. Then you have the owner of your business offering to pay for the reimbursement of your seats just out of the goodness of his heart. And also allowing him to use the Porsche seats from his car, which was wrecked. But still, the seats from a Porsche, you're putting him into a Tacoma? Doesn't really make sense to me. But again, kudos to Powell. He really did the right thing here. He made the smart move because I think it really saved him as far as ruling him out as a potential suspect and also helping police to ultimately build the rest of their case. And one final note

about the seats that I found interesting in the affidavit, Paul went on to state that during phone calls about the seats, FOTUS told him to refer to the seats as hardware and to avoid using the word seats. I mean, if that doesn't raise some red flags in addition to everything else, I don't know what would. Well, first of all, I want to say that I think Porsche owners call their cars Porsches. Oh, excuse me. Yeah. I apologize. It's fancy. It's Connecticut. So. Okay. Okay. You know, when in Rome. But also, we can say good for Powell that he kept the seats. But at the same time, like you just said, he's got all this going on with the car. His employer is acting weird. He

replaces it with Porsche seats, right? And then he doesn't even want him to use the word seats on phone calls in case he's being recorded, I assume. And it raises red flags. Powell does not go to the police at this point, does he? No, he doesn't. And I didn't include this in my research, but Paul did indicate in his interviews with police that Fotis was kind of insinuating. I think Paul had a green card and Fotis would insinuate to him passive aggressively like, hey, you don't want to get caught up in this because it could revoke your ability to be here. And so he was trying to use that as something over him to prevent him from going to the police.

And Paul mentioned this in his interviews with law enforcement. So I do think that had a part to do with it. I'm not giving him a pass here. I mean, he could obviously always have done better, but considering the circumstances, I thought he did a pretty good job. Yeah, I agree. He did a good job. But I mean, you have a woman missing, you know, five kids are sitting there wondering, where's my mom? You know, you would think that at least anonymously, he could have somehow gotten some information to the police. I don't know. But you're right.

We also have to consider the kind of area. It's very affluent. Like you said, there's, you know, mainly, I would say, without looking at the demographics, it's mainly a white community. So you've got somebody who's there and in the country on a green card, and he might be afraid that he doesn't have as much power as somebody like Fotis does, even though we couldn't describe Fotis as being a white person. But Fotis did have the business, he had the notoriety, he had the money, allegedly, even though he really didn't. So I can see how he would be a little bit intimidated by that.

Yeah. No, absolutely. Can't relate personally, but sometimes people do things and then later on, you scratch your head over it. But from what I understand, Paul was completely cooperative with police the entire time I saw a video from his attorney and said he was a cooperating witness. And again, he was influential in the things that ultimately transpired in this case. He was a big part of it. So my understanding is that police, because of the video footage containing his truck, that's how this whole thing initiated. But, you know, as soon as it did, Paul never gave them any type of resistance. And it's a good thing, you know, that he did keep those seats because based on this new information, as well as some other incriminating evidence, Fotis and Michelle were arrested on September 4th, 2019 for additional charges of tampering with evidence. On top of their, their already, you know, previous tampering with evidence charges, Fotis made bail almost immediately, but investigators weren't done.

They continued to comb the evidence, putting together a timeline based on the surveillance footage. They also obtained a warrant for the seats that were removed from the red Tacoma and then stored by Powell Gemini. Investigators took eight swaps of a blood-like substance from the vehicle, and they cut a swatch of fabric from the seat that appeared to have a bloodstain. At least one of these bloodstains came from Jennifer Dulos. Now, this was the final piece of evidence police needed, and on January 7, 2020, police arrested Fotis for the kidnapping and murder of Jennifer Dulos. Personally, I'm surprised it took that long, but I can understand why they kind of want that last nail in the coffin. Yeah, this was that nail in the coffin. Without a body, this is as good as you're going to get,

because now you have her blood in a vehicle that she has allegedly never been in before. So there's no circumstance where there can be an excuse used by Fotis to say, hey, she used to drive around in that Tacoma all the time and maybe she got cut. Her DNA had no business being in that Tacoma at any point, right? And the warrant that they use here is called the Joyce warrant, specifically pertaining to DNA. And again, cops did a great job, got the evidence they needed, and ultimately it took three arrests. But they finally felt they had enough, and clearly a judge felt they had enough to arrest Fotis. Michelle and Fotis' former attorney, Kent Mawinney, were also arrested for conspiracy to commit murder. And according to their arrest warrants, police said Michelle Traconis and

Kent Mawinney conspired to provide an alibi for Fotis on the day that his estranged wife vanished. Yeah, this warrant, they did a great job with it. And it was really extensive. It was about 470 pages. I know that you read it. I know that I read it multiple times. And they did a really great job at laying out the case. And at one point in the warrant, state chief medical examiner James Gill states that based on the blood found at Jennifer's home and the other evidence gathered throughout the investigation, Jennifer Dulos' death was a homicide of violence. The warrant also describes Jennifer Dulos as being bound with the zip ties during the alleged attack.

These were the zip ties that were found in the garbage bags in Hartford. In total, four ties were used and two were found with Jennifer's blood on them. The really sad part about this warrant is they actually go into more detail about the zip ties and they explain that based on how the zip ties were recovered and the fact that they had blood on them, that it was reasonable to assume that Jennifer was still alive when they were actually used and that they were probably used as a form of preventing her from escaping, which is, it's tough to think about. That was some of her final moments, if that is in fact what happened. Yeah. I mean, there'd be no reason to zip tie somebody if they were already dead or incapacitated.

So definitely horrible to think about because you have to think what she was going through at that point. She knew what was happening to her. And I always think about this in these cases that there's a moment usually, unless you're completely blindsided or a stranger's attacking you, where you know that somebody you previously trusted is doing something bad to you. And I have to wonder, is, does there, is there some, a moment of denial or is there just kind of like, I don't know, an acceptance of it at that point? Like my husband, my estranged husband, she knew that, that he had a violent streak. He, she knew he was a vindictive person. And, and then he does this to her. But I think even knowing that,

that your husband might be capable of doing something horrible still doesn't prepare you for the fact that he is doing it. And that's hard to swallow. No, I can't imagine. I can't imagine coming home and encountering something like that and being awake during it.

I really can't. No, and in my opinion, it also looks like Michelle Traconis started to distance herself from Fotis after the second arrest as well. I don't know why it took the second arrest to start distancing yourself, but okay. And the warrant stated that she eventually spoke to police again, and she recanted an earlier statement that claimed she'd been with Fotis on the morning of Jennifer's disappearance. So basically, she took away his alibi. According to the arrest warrant, she also spoke with investigators about handwritten notes that they had found in Fotis' home office. These notes, which authorities referred to in court

documents as alibi scripts, were a detailed list of activities on May 24th and 25th, including events that allegedly never even happened. So these alibi scripts, they outline specific times and activities for the day that Jennifer Dulos was reported missing and the day after. And according to Michelle, the notes were written by Dulos and herself to help them remember again, according to the police. The notes also listed the times and duration of phone calls and individuals called, according to the warrant. So when they say the duration of phone calls and individuals called, does that mean phone calls that are being made to provide alibis? Right. Like to give them a timeframe of where they were, when they were, what they were

doing, when they do it. Like, cause obviously that's a running log that can't be altered. And so it could say, Hey, listen, look right here. I was with this person talking on the phone. How could I have done anything if I was in the middle of having a conversation with this person on the phone? So they mapped out in these alibi notes who they were going to call and how long they would be on the phone with these people. Right. Exactly. And again, like you just mentioned, initially, Michelle said that that was because they wanted to write down and remember what had happened that day in case they were ever asked about it. So later, the, you know, alibi scripts, they were proven to be inaccurate by police. And the warrant says that included alibi witnesses who were later determined to be false. But from that,

I'm getting that these people they said they had talked to, and you know, they were going to tell the police they had talked to as an alibi. They had never spoken to these people. So it's kind of a really shitty alibi list. I mean, if the alibis aren't true, because as far as I know, and I thought anybody knew, you can't just give an alibi and then it's an alibi. You can't just be like, oh, I was with Donald Duck yesterday at the water park. They're actually going to check into that alibi. They're going to look and they're going to go talk to Donald Duck and they're going to pull surveillance at the water park to see if you and Donald Duck were, you know, on

the Lazy River. So I'm not sure exactly what they hope to achieve from that. Right. Yeah. And again, I think that's why law enforcement refers to these notes as alibi scripts, because these notes were never meant to be seen by law enforcement. They were intended to be scripts that would be, in my opinion, they were scripts that were intended to be memorized so that if they were ever questioned separately, their stories would,

they would corroborate each other's story, right? Because, hey, we're both saying the same thing. It's got to be true, right? And so the fact that law enforcement saw it obviously changed that. They were not intended to be seen by them. But you mentioned it, you know, Michelle backed off of that story later and kind of admitted that, you know, that wasn't true. And this happens in a lot of these cases, right? Like as investigators, we're going to separate co-conspirators if we feel they're co-conspirators and they're really unified when they're together. But when you separate them and one feels that they have more to lose than the other one,

and maybe they were less involved, they usually tend to be more cooperative. And as the arrests kept happening in this case, I feel like Michelle, in my opinion, was more cooperative because she saw the writing on the wall and felt like she might want to start cooperating if she ever wanted to get out of this. And I want to qualify this. Michelle is not guilty of anything right now. And she's innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. So just keep this in mind as you guys are listening to this. Michelle has not been convicted of a crime yet. And that's important to know. It's funny that you say co-conspirators, you would normally separate them and interview them separately.

This seems completely normal, but unless you're the parents of JonBenet Ramsey and then they let you get interviewed together, let you also review your initial statement before your police interview so you can make sure you have it right. But we'll talk about that one day, right? Yeah, it's almost like we should maybe cover that case or something at some point. Definitely should, yeah. So Fotis Doulos posted his bail and he was released. And his lawyer, not the one who was arrested, but a different one, Norm Pattis, he continued to advocate publicly for his client. Norm had this theory. He said that he believed Jennifer had staged her own disappearance to frame her husband for her murder and get back at him for cheating on her. He brought up a manuscript for a book that Jennifer had written about a troubled woman who's 2012 novel Gone Girl, but Norm Pattis also admitted he never actually read the manuscript. He just figured this was what had happened, and then he made sure to get this in front of the press so that the narrative could

start to take root, saying, quote, this is a person who has a pretty florid imagination and motives to use it to hurt Mr. Dulos. I think Mr. Pettis is the one with a pretty florid imagination, but that's just my opinion. Mr. Pettis also goes on to make several other unsubstantiated claims, such as that Jennifer's addicted to heroin and suffering with addiction and has for most of her life. He even implied at one point that she'd trafficked heroin from Cambodia. There's that Florida imagination coming back. Anyways, Jennifer's family responded to Norm Pettis' statement saying Jennifer had written that 500-page manuscript a full decade before Gone Girl was published. And they said, quote, trying to tie Jennifer's absence to a book she wrote more than 17 years ago makes no sense. Evidence shows

that Jennifer was the victim of a violent attack in her new Canaan home. As of today, she has been missing for a month. This is not fiction or a movie. This is real life as experienced every single day by Jennifer's five young children, her family, and her friends. We are heartbroken. Jennifer is not here to protect her children and these false and irresponsible allegations hurt the children now and into the future, end quote. And I do agree. I think that these allegations were very false and irresponsible. It's not responsible for him to start spreading any of this stuff around with absolutely zero proof. I mean, of course it's possible, right? Anything's possible. But he had no proof. He had nothing to back up these claims. He's basically just slandering her at this point. But, you know, while we're talking about it,

is this a legitimate theory that, you know, she just gone-girled herself? Well, I mean, not with everything we know now, right? I mean, yeah, I guess like initially police show up to the house and they're first like, you know, where's Jennifer? What happened to her? Before they find bloodstains in the garage, before they see surveillance footage of her leaving the house or allegedly leaving the house at 1025. Yeah. Anything's possible. Again, we always start with a really broad scope of the possibilities involving a potential victim, and we narrow them down, and we let the evidence guide our investigation, right? You follow the breadcrumbs. And the breadcrumbs in this case would not point to a gone girl incident. So I don't give any

credibility to the theory personally, in my professional opinion. And I agree with everything you said about the lawyer. Apparently, he's a pretty prominent lawyer too, like a very smart guy. And I don't, you know, he was passionate about this case. I think maybe the cameras kind of, you know, maybe caught him a little bit, but, you know, very intelligent guy from what I've seen in some of the interviews I watched. And, you know, in his defense, as a defense attorney, he was doing his job. You know, I got to give him that. I mean, Jose Baez is a very prominent lawyer as well, but there's not much good you can say about that guy. So allegedly, allegedly, I'm not a professional. I'm not a police officer.

I'm just a regular person. And I call bullshit. There's no chance, no way that that was ever the truth in different circumstances. If she was a different person, different person, if this was a world where movies came true. And it's sad because I think at one point, Jennifer was a woman who felt that things that happened in movies could come true. She was a romantic. And I just don't think it's possible. The amount that she loved her children, the way she devoted herself to them, maybe if they hadn't been in the picture, I could sit here and speculate and say, oh, maybe she, she gone girled herself, but not, not in this

situation. She loved her children way too much and she would never, ever willingly leave them. I mean, look at the divorce. She was fighting for them. No, absolutely. And at this point, you're thinking, you know, Fotis has been arrested and at minimum, he's going to have his day in court to, you know to explain himself and also allow prosecutors to lay out their case. At least that's what we think is about to happen. Well, then we fast forward to January 28th. And is that January 28th, 2019, I believe, right? I believe that would be January 28th, 2020. 2020, you're right. Yeah.

2020. This year. This year feels like three years combined. Yeah, because it happened in 2019, right? Yeah, 2019. So it was this past January. And Fotis was scheduled to attend a bail hearing in Stamford, but he didn't show up. So obviously they send police officers to his house and they found his Suburban running in the garage, hazy with poisonous carbon monoxide. Fotis was slumped over and lifeless when police pulled him out and started CPR. They were eventually able to regain a pulse,

and inside the suburban they found photos of Fotis and his children. They also found Tylenol PM and electrical tape, and they found a note signed by Fotis, and that note said, if you're reading this, I am no more. It went on to say that he didn't want to spend one more hour in jail for something that he had nothing to do with. Enough is enough. And he said that Michelle Traconis had nothing to do with Jennifer's disappearance. He had nothing to do with her disappearance. Michelle had nothing to do with her disappearance. And these are basically his last words. And I find this interesting because Fotis claimed, you know, he's not responsible.

He's got nothing to do with it. So how would he know for sure that Michelle had nothing to do with it? I guess. I mean, I feel like you can't really have it both ways. The only way he could be sure Michelle had nothing to do with it is if he had something to do with it. So otherwise he would really have no knowledge of who was or wasn't involved. So Fotis Dulos was pronounced dead two days later at 5.32 PM on January 30th at a hospital in New York. So why do you think he decided to take his life at this point, Derek? Why do you think he waited several months and three hours later knowing he was about to kill himself? Why do you think he still claimed his innocence? Was it out of love for Michelle or was he trying to protect her or exonerate her in his final moments?

You know, there's a lot that can be taken away from this. You know, I'm not a forensic psychologist for me looking at it from an investigator's point of view. You know, if Fotis did in fact kill his wife or ex-wife, which in my personal opinion, he did. And there was some truth to the idea that there were co-conspirators in this case. Those individuals who are still on this earth could still be charged and convicted of murder. So he might've been looking out for other people, or it could be as simple as just a level of narcissism where up until his dying breath, he wanted to control the narrative, maybe not only for himself, but maybe for his kids as well. I don't know. We will never know. And I just want to take this

opportunity again to reiterate to all of our listeners that Michelle Troconis has not been convicted of a crime yet. She's still going through the trial. I know there was charges changed all the way up till at least August of this year. So just remember, she is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. And that's why we have a justice system. We let it take its course. Stephanie, but I gave my opinion. What do you think? What do you think about this? I mean, I think obviously that Fotis killed his wife. I think Fotis killed Jennifer. And I was thinking while you were talking, like, would it be worth it to offer Michelle a deal, some sort of reduced sentence just to like get the truth finally? But

then I'm thinking after that, no, I don't, I don't think it would be worth it because I think most people know that he did it. We, we won't know the real why, right? We don't know exactly what happened, but even if she was offered a deal at this point and she confirmed this, I don't think we would still know exactly how it happened because it would still be secondhand. It would be coming from her and not him. And who knows, you know, he's dead and the truth died with him. Any sense or any chance of actually knowing exactly what happened, exactly why his thought process, it died with him. So no, I don't think it would be worth it to kind of give her a deal and say,

hey, we'll let you off the hook for this, and we'll just charge you with this if you tell us the truth, because I think we pretty much already know the truth. But that's not for me to say. That's not my decision to make. It's up to the family of Jennifer Dulos. I'm going to call her Jennifer Farber now, because I don't like calling her Jennifer Dulos because I'm sure she did not want to be Jennifer Dulos at the end there. She was trying to get a divorce, but it's up to them whether they think it's worth it for the closure and maybe to find her body. But it doesn't get much better. In June, Gloria Farber, who's Jennifer's mother and who had been caring for her five grandchildren since May of 2019, won a civil lawsuit that she'd filed

against Fotis for unpaid business loans that her family had made to his company, which would seem positive, but Fotis was nearly bankrupt when he killed himself while facing murder charges in the death and disappearance of his estranged wife. The estate was also essentially bankrupt with all the properties owned by Fotis and the four group currently in foreclosure proceedings. Thus, Gloria and her grandchildren will likely not receive anything from the estate. I mean, it's sad. These children lost both their father and their mother. For a long time, they were part of this very public case, which is why I didn't really talk about them too much. And I didn't use their names because I don't want to do that to them anymore. But luckily, I mean, the Farber family is not destitute, you know, and these children will have a good life with a family

who loves them and who will make sure their needs are met. But I don't think anything can ever replace that loving, warm, safe presence their mother Jennifer brought to their lives. Completely agree. And I think it might not seem like it now, but if they're able to find Jennifer's body, I do think in the long run for her family and more specifically her children,

that will carry a lot of weight. I think there's something to it. I've had victims' families that know their loved one is dead, but don't have that opportunity to heal because their loved one is possibly still out there somewhere. And it has a psychological toll on you. And I think for these children to have this whole case, you know, ended with the recovery of her body would be huge. A little bit of positive note with that is I was recently reading an article where there may be some new leads that might help them find Jennifer's body if it's still possible.

So I'm hoping that's what comes out of this. They haven't found her yet, but I'm sure the investigators feel the same way I do. And I promise you, although there's a trial going on and although Fotis is dead, they're still very focused on bringing Jennifer home. What are those new leads? They didn't say, and I don't expect them to, obviously, but it just said that there's reports that there's some new leads in the case that may ultimately help them find her body. And I will say this, and I'm going out on a limb here, you know, with everything they have in this case, as far as being able to track the vehicles involved, I would think the geographical area where her body was would be small, but then there's also a possibility that she was in the truck when he was driving back to Farmington, you know? So,

and that's a little bit of a drive. So from New Canaan. So I don't know. They know way more than I do. But like I said, I hope that the leads they have are good and they're really narrowing down the possible area where her body was. And you talked about a deal with Michelle earlier.

If Michelle was involved in this crime in any way, shape or form, if maybe that's a deal that could be made because I don't think she should walk away scot-free if she was involved, but I think it would mean a lot to the family to have Jennifer home. And I mean, we have to remember like this guy, he's a real estate developer, you know? Yeah. Great point. Who knows? I mean, have they checked every single piece of property he owned? She could be anywhere,

but I think that would probably be a good place to start. There is a lot. There's a lot of potential locations. And I'm sure he did something more than just drop her body somewhere. You know what I mean? There's more to it. So you could be right. And there's a lot that can be taken from this case. And I know we're always going to try to make an attempt to process these investigations, process these cases, and not just look at them for the story, but also how we can take something from it and learn. in this case. But what I would say to our listeners is invest in some type of security system, preferably something with video surveillance and motion centers. Why do I say that? We go back to the beginning of this case. It's believed by law enforcement that Fotis was lying in wait at Jennifer's home before she got there. So whether he had been welcomed over there or whether he just went there on his own, which they believe he went there on his own uninvited, if she had some type of

surveillance system set up with a notification enabled, she would have been notified when someone entered that home. And I know we talk about different products and stuff on this show. We talked about SimpliSafe last week. I don't care if you use SimpliSafe or whoever you want to use, but buy something. We have a Ring doorbell in my house. It's extremely beneficial and you don't really need it till you need it. But having the ability to be notified if someone goes in your home without your knowledge before you get there could potentially save your life. So that's the one thing that I think we all as individuals can do to make our homes a little safer. Yeah. I mean, as a YouTuber, I think it was,

I don't know, about a year and a half. A year and a half ago, I got my first death threat. And that was when I got security cameras and stuff. And I always tell people every time now, I get some sort of threat or something. I say, yes, please, please come on over. I have a badass security system. The second you set foot on my property, I'll know you're here. I'll have you on camera. I hear you. I was just telling you, Derek, earlier, like if you pull in my driveway, I get a chime in my house. Is that overkill? Probably. I'm paranoid. I have my family and myself to protect and I will do so at all costs. So, you know, but we also have to remember this was a rented house that she was living in. And, you know, it was very soon.

He knew this. He knew this. Yeah. It's quick to install though, Stephanie, honestly. And I get it. Rental house, all that stuff. But again, let's learn something from this unfortunate incident with Jennifer. You know what I mean?

Like we may not know her personally, but there's a lot of mothers and daughters and sisters and out there who, you know, could be, this could happen to them. And there's a lot of crazy ex-boyfriends, crazy ex-husbands, or just random stalkers who are following you and you don't even know it. So for a couple hundred bucks, whatever it may cost, put something in your house that could be temporary. You may be moving, have it there. It's a sense of security and it gives you one extra layer of protection against someone who may have malicious intentions. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely. Definitely thoughts with the family for sure. Especially Jennifer's kids, they don't deserve this. And I hope that we can follow up on this case in the future with good news that Jennifer has been found alive or dead. I mean, still a small possibility she's alive, although I don't personally believe that's possible, you know, but, and I don't think anybody does, but you never know, you know, so at minimum, I hope she's found and I hope that this family can get some level of closure, not, you're never

going to have that full closure, but something to, you know, at this point, bring Jennifer home to where she can, you know, finally rest in peace and allow the family to heal. Okay, guys, now is the time in the episode where we ask you to follow us on social media so you can interact with us. So you can tell us what you thought about each episode. So you can tell us any cases you'd like us to cover. So go to CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com. That's our website. On there, you can leave us a message. You can use SpeakPipe to leave us like an actual voice message, or you can just write us a message.

Tell us what you think. Just say hi. Tell us what cases you want us to cover. You can also follow us on Instagram and Twitter at CrimeWeeklyPod. It's just CrimeWeeklyPod on all platforms. Make sure you join us next week. We actually have another two-parter, and this is a crazy case. And Derek and I had a lot of interesting conversations about this case.

And it happened in Knoxville, Tennessee. And it happened around Thanksgiving. And I don't want to give too much away because I want you guys to be surprised, but it has to do with a young man who didn't want to get a job and ended up taking the harder way out. Yeah, it was a really fascinating case. I actually had never heard of it until you brought it up, honestly. But when we dove into it, what a fascinating case. And I think there's a lot to take from it. So I'm looking forward to going over it with you and with everyone else. All right.

We will see you next Friday. And don't forget, Crime Weekly posts new episodes every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts. See you guys later. Bye. Crime Weekly, presented by i-D, is a co-production by Audioboom and Main Event Media.