Crime Weekly - S1 Ep33: Death By The Bay: What Happened to Robin Pope? (Part 2)

Episode Date: July 23, 2021

If you have any information regarding this case, please contact Sgt. David Sexton at [e-mail] Kent Island, Maryland, located in Queen Anne County, is the largest island in Chesapeake Bay, and it is a picture perfect place, surrounded by water and large expanses of beaches. It’s a historic place that really embodies coastal living, with so much to do from biking, to swimming, to hiking through lush woods and tidal marshes. It is a place you would want to live if enjoying life is your main objective, and it is where 51 year old Robin Pope was living with her husband and two daughters when she went missing along with her beloved Great Dane Bella in March of 2013. Bella washed up on shore the next day, but it would be another twenty-two days before Robin’s body was found. The last person to see her alive was Robin’s estranged husband, Wayne Pope, but although the police have never been able to say conclusively whether Robin’s death was a result of foul play, or a simple tragic accident, those close to Robin believe they know the truth.  Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. Today, we are finishing up the Robin pulp case. So this is part two of a two-part series. There's not going to be any more after this, but we are going to wrap it up here. We're going to go over a couple more factors or features of the case. We also have an interview with somebody who was on the case firsthand. Why don't you introduce him, Derek? Yeah, Sergeant David Sexton.

We kind of teased it last week. We actually did the interview earlier this week, so we didn't want to cram all this into one episode and make it like a three-hour episode. So we really wanted to take time on certain parts of this case and then get David Sexton's opinion on those things so that we could have a full understanding of the case directly from the horse's mouth before spitting out some theories. Yeah. And I really enjoyed the interview with him because I had a list of questions that I wanted to ask him as I was going through this case. So I was able to kind of get those answered. We were able to clear up things with a timeline because we were kind of going through the gigs with the timeline in part one. You guys didn't see it, but there was about 45 minutes of discussion where we had to go back and forth with different time zones. And, oh, it took a much longer time last week to record the episode than usual, but I'm glad we did because now I feel like it's just emblazoned in my mind and I cannot forget it. And then talking to Sexton really brought that to life for me. So I think you guys

are really going to enjoy hearing his perspective on this case. And remember, he was there. He talked to Wayne Pope. He interviewed Wayne Pope. When you saw or heard that little portion of Wayne Pope's interview where somebody was saying, like, you killed your wife, that was Sergeant Sexton. So he's a badass. He's good at what he does. He knows what he's doing. I liked him a lot. Yeah, he's a good dude. And I was kind of praising him before you got a chance to meet him, but you can see he is really a genuine guy and he is good at what he does. And there are departments where we talk about how they're not really experienced and they don't get a lot of this type of crime. Maryland State Police, it's the state police. I mean, they're overseeing the local police officers

in the state of Maryland. So Sergeant Sexton was telling me he's actually in charge of all police-involved shootings in the state. Now that's what his unit's doing. So they are the best of the best in the state of Maryland. And I really appreciated his willingness to come on, be candid with us. We'll talk more about it afterwards, but he was very transparent. He's a busy guy. He had just worked the case for 27 hours and he's still the lead detective on this case. So if anything comes from this, whether it's one of our listeners or one of our viewers, you're going to have a direct connection to him. We'll be giving his information out in the actual interview. Yeah.

And I think even more than that, he genuinely cares about Robin Pope and solving her case. You can tell from talking to him. You know, I don't want to say it's personal because I don't think that he would lose professional courtesy or distance like that. But he clearly does care about Robin and he cares about seeing this case find justice. So hopefully it does. Absolutely. Yeah.

He's one of those guys where, like you said, it's all the cases that are unsolved. I remember doing a case in Seattle where the guy told you every unsolved case you have, it stays with you. He actually was tearing up in the episode where it's like, you know, it's, uh, it's one of those things where it takes a piece of you, everyone that you go to bed at night, knowing there's this, there's no answers yet. So, um, you can see that with Dave and he's had an ability to still put his best foot forward. And I can't wait for you guys to hear what he had to say. So I want to talk about what happened after the autopsy. Robin's body was released to her next of kin. Now that would be her husband, Wayne Pope. So when I heard about this part of the case, I was like, this is so bad. You know, I don't think that if it's potentially a suspicion that the spouse could have had something to do with their wife or their husband's death, I don't think that they should be considered next of kin. I think that there should be some sort of holding pattern or some sort of secondary next of kin that way. Because

what happened after he got her body was he had her cremated, right? Almost immediately. Almost immediately, just within a few days. So what we have here is if there's any sort of, I mean, they did do the autopsy and they didn't find anything because of how long she'd been in the water, because of how badly decomposed her body was. However, we don't know with, you know, technology or with a different pathologist or something like that. If she'd been exhumed at a later date, they maybe could have found something. So if Wayne Pope had anything to do with what happened to Robin, he essentially ensured that there would never be evidence of that when he had her body cremated. And I'm not saying he did. What I'm saying is if he did, that's what he did.

Yeah. And to play devil's advocate, if I was a Wayne Pope supporter, which I'm not, I think that's very obvious, I would say, listen, everything you said is right, Stephanie. Technology down the road may have helped it, but let's all be honest with each other here for a second. body was in a really bad condition when it was found. And there's no way you could have a traditional wake with her body being that condition. So if there were no suspicious circumstances surrounding this case, surrounding Wayne, I think most people would be like, yeah, no, I get why you would have a cremation because of the circumstances surrounding it. But it doesn't make you feel better knowing that the person who's making that decision because of the law, the way it's written, is someone who is probably one of the only persons of interest right now. And he's deciding what happens with basically one of the few pieces of evidence in this case. It just doesn't sit well with anybody who wants answers for Robin and her family.

He's deciding what happens with one of the few pieces of evidence in this case. He's deciding what happens with the body of a woman who could potentially have been his victim. And imagine how you'd feel. Right. Imagine how you'd feel if you're Robin's daughters and this decision is in this person's hands. And you heavily suspect that he may have had something to do with her death. It's just a very, very uncomfortable situation. Yep.

Tough pill to swallow. I do think based on what Dave told us both, some of it, he said directly, some of it, you can kind of infer without saying it that again, based on technology available today, which is pretty damn good. It will always get better, obviously, but based on what we have today, they couldn't even determine cause of death, the remainder of death. Again, body, water, 23 days. You guys do the math.

It's not a pretty picture as far as what you're left with and the condition of the skin when you get it. But that's the way it falls sometimes. And he was, like you said, he was very disappointed. Again, you'll hear it in the interview when they finally did the autopsy because of these circumstances. So Wayne Pope actually was going to take a polygraph. What happened was the Queen Anne County's state's attorney, Lance Richardson, he kind of offered Wayne Pope a deal. He was like, listen, you know, we're going to give you a polygraph. And didn't lie, then I'm going to release that information to the public. And this will help you look more innocent in the court of public opinion. Because at this point, obviously, there's a lot of talk, especially around the small town that maybe Wayne Pope's involved. And so this will help you clear your name amongst your community members, your neighbors, your friends, your family, etc. But if it comes back and it shows that you lied when answering that question, then listen, I won't release that information to the public. So basically, it's not going to hurt you, but it can only help you, which I mean, any intelligent person knows that's not true, right? And I always like, I really do appreciate law enforcement and what they do in certain cases, but I always tell people never take a polygraph test, never take a polygraph exam. I just don't find them to be super accurate. I think that they're usually just interrogation

tools. I've seen them used as interrogation tools. We saw that with Chris Watts, right? We kind of did see that with Chris Watson and the detective who was talking to him from the FBI where, you know, they were like, oh, it shows you lied. You know, who knows if it did or not. But always just talk to a lawyer before you even talk to the police to begin with. But we know that if Wayne had taken that polygraph and if they had asked him, did you kill your wife? And he said no, and it showed deception,

that's still going to make him look bad. And that's going to add to the case of the state's attorney as well as law enforcement. So Wayne agreed to do this. He even showed up that day. They said he was like waiting in the lobby. And then at the last minute, he sort of changed his mind and he left. And Lance Richardson said, you know, that invitation is still open. But Lance also did say in Breaking Homicide,

he hasn't spoken to Wayne Pope since that day. So I don't think that Wayne Pope's ever going to take him up on that invitation. No. And maybe for the reason you're saying, I remember Lance and I talking, I don't know if it made the episode, I don't know what part did, but there was something with it where Wayne was sitting there, he had been waiting a little bit, his lawyer couldn't make it that day, something happened with his lawyer. Things didn't play out the way Wayne wanted them to and he decided last minute, I'm not taking it and he just left. But yeah, you're 100% right right. Lance definitely wanted it. And he said it in the episode. I know this part made it where he was like, I just wanted affirmation that I had my guy. I didn't need to release it to the public, but I just wanted a little bit more combined with

what we already had that he failed this polygraph. And as far as your, you said this to me, you said it many times, your perception of a polygraph, you know, I definitely think it's got its flaws because it's not 100% accurate. That's proven. That's not even up for debate. And it's not even admissible in many states. So it is a tool. So from the law enforcement side, when I throw that hat on, we're not banking our whole case on it, whether you fail it or pass it, you know, we're not going to probably get a conviction based on a failed polygraph, but you're right. It is a tool that we use to let us know possibly if we're heading in the right direction. So if Wayne failed, it's just one more piece of information we have now to say, this is our guy, this is our guy. So, um, it's an interesting thing that happened. I found, I found it interesting, interesting that Wayne even agreed and showed up in the first place. But, you know, that could have been just maybe Wayne was pulling their punk card. And then when he realized they were actually going to hook him up, he's like, no, I'm going to like be cooperative. But as a citizen of the United States, I know that I have the right to pull out at any time. So I'm going to go there as if I have this good intention, as if I, you know, like an like an AKA innocent person would, you know, I'm using air quotes because I have said time

and time again, I don't believe it makes you look guilty if you don't want to take a polygraph test and you shouldn't make anybody or allow anybody to make you feel that you're guilty because you don't want to take one. But I think he was like, let me show them I'm cooperative. And then at the last minute, he was like, oh, no, I've changed my mind. I'm nervous about this. I'm anxious about it. And he has the right to do that. So it can't really hurt him if he if he does this.

It looked like he was going to do it. And then all of a sudden he pulled out at the last minute. So it doesn't make him any more guilty or look any more guilty than he looked before, essentially. I would argue the one thing is, I agree with everything you said, but I bet you there are people, I'll even say it myself included, that are like, yeah, he didn't want to take the polygraph because he knew he was going to fail it. And so therefore he looks even more guilty to me. Like you refusing to take it. I'm just talking for myself, not for Stephanie. You choosing, because I've had many people where I'm like, oh, I'm going to hook you up to a polygraph. And they're like, absolutely. Where's the machine? I'm ready

right now. Let's do it. And I'm like, no, I don't want to give it to you now. You were too willing to take it. You know what I mean? I'll pass. But so for me, him not taking it. Oh, that's sneaky, man. It's true. It's true. It's true. Because listen, we didn't have a polygrapher on our staff. We're a smaller department. And you got to bring someone in, right? Oh yeah. Money. So I would be like, hey, listen, man, we got a polygraph examiner in the next room. Machine's ready to go. Would you be willing to take the test? And they're like, yeah, absolutely. Let's go do it right now. I'm like, all right,

let me see if he's out. And then I come back on, he's out to lunch and you know what? I believe you're all set. You can get out of here. So, um, you know, I, I do think it does show a little bit of, and this is not just for Wayne. This is for anyone. When someone's completely against taking it, it does make me wonder like, why are you so nervous? Is it because you've done your research like a Stephanie Harlow, or you just know, hey, if I lied, this machine's going to be able to tell them, so I'm not going to take it. It's all subjective. It's a completely opinionated thing, but we both agree that you failing a polygraph to test, not only on a personal level, but even in the eyes of the law, doesn't hold a ton of weight anymore.

I've always wanted to get hooked up to a polygraph machine, not in an actual investigation. I did it. I did it. I would say no. If the cop was like, you want to take a polygraph? I'd say absolutely not. And then if it's Derek, he's going to be like, this girl's guilty, man, because I would say absolutely not. I'm way too paranoid, but I want to take it just to see if I can like lie and get away with it. Right. And there are, there are, there are tactics

that you can use. You can take medication. Some people in the past for FBI exams, like when they're applying for the FBI would put a thumbtack in their shoe. And what you would do is when you were answering even honest questions, you'd step on the thumbtack, which to increase your baseline, right? Yep. Yep. To increase your baseline. So there are things around it, but they ask you questions like, have you done anything to alter the test today? But I did take a polygraph test for multiple things, um, for some federal jobs and also for ID con a few years ago where they had a polygraph examiner there was more for fun, but I was genuinely nervous because he was asking me questions that I wasn't prepared for. And he was asking me things like, do you like your wife's cooking and stuff? And I was like, yikes. And the things spike in like crazy.

So, you know, like I got to the point where I remember one question he asked me was, have you ever worn makeup? And the answer is I definitely have not only on the show, but also like when I was a kid with my sisters and stuff. So I'm like, so I'm like, yeah, of course I have 400 people laughing at me now. Cause obviously the needle didn't move. So that was my experience in the public with it. But regardless of whether the point is I'm trying to support what you're saying as far as I had nothing to hide and I was still anxious and nervous, which could have caused me to look like I was deceiving the examiner. So I agree with you that there's so many outside elements that could cause something in that machine to suggest you're lying when really

you're just nervous. So I agree with you. I don't disagree at all. Yeah. I still want to take one so bad. I'm sure we can make that happen at one of these events. CrimeCon had a polygraph examiner there. She was downstairs. Her father does it. He's actually the one that gave me the exam. So I'm sure we can set that up for a future episode where we put Stephanie Harlow on a polygraph exam and I get to ask the questions. Oh, please. I will beat it. Oh, I'll put money on that one. Because I remember we were talking to Sexton too, and he was like, oh, when I was interrogating Wayne, I, you know, he seemed genuinely and sincerely to just not have any idea what I was talking about.

Like I've interviewed people, some of them, it's clear when they're lying. You know, he seemed to genuinely believe it when he said, no, I had nothing to do with this. And I said, well, some people are just good liars. You know, some people are just really good at lying. And he said, absolutely. Yeah. We got the opportunity to watch the interrogation footage.

We didn't include the interrogation footage in its entirety for copyright reasons in the episode, but you got a screenshot of it and you can hear it. He's not bad. He's pretty cool, calm, and collected for sure. And sex didn't push him. Body language was open, I felt like. He was kind of just like very... But some people are just super good liars. They are so used to it. It comes so naturally to them. It comes natural second to breathing. And I'm sure we all know at least one person like that, that they've lied to our faces. And we've been like, whoa, usually I have a really good hold on when someone's being dishonest with me and I never knew. So it's just all sorts. We talked about that a little bit. We

want to hear what you think. Comment down below whether you would take a polygraph test or not. If you were innocent, if you got brought in for questioning, you know you're innocent, would you take the polygraph exam Would you take it? And whether you would or not, tell us why. Yeah. I think the comments are going to blow up on that one. Yeah. And I think they're going to be on your side for sure. I think so. Oh, 100%. You might actually win one this week. It's great. I mean, I usually win. Oh, God. I just don't want to hurt your feelings. They know you're more sensitive than I am. I am. I am very sensitive. Well, I want to talk about the oceanographer because you had interviewed her on Breaking Homicide for this case. You guys actually went out in the boat. Looks super cool. I love going on boats, but I forget her name. Refresh my memory. Doctor, I believe it's Cecily. Dr. Cecily Stepp. Her last name is definitely Stepp. Yeah. So she said that that night that Robbins believed to have gone in the water,

the tide was very strong and it was pushing down the bay. But she also said that Robbins believed to have gone in the water. The tide was very strong and it was pushing down the bay. But she also said that Robbins' body should have reached its final destination within just a few hours. Yet she was not found until 23 days later. Now, there's a few reasons this might happen, a very few reasons why this might happen. None of them look good for Robbins. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Yeah. So she really this wasn't just for TV purposes. This woman is brilliant. why this might happen. None of them look good for Robin. Can you talk about that a little bit more?

Yeah. So she really, this wasn't just for TV purposes. This woman is brilliant. She teaches or she's a professor at a local, I want to say like in Annapolis, there's like a military base there, like a Naval Academy. She's like teaches there. She's one of the best of the best. Nobody knows that water better than her. She looked up the date and time for the currents for that area, the temperatures. She really was like, if I'm going to do this, I want to know everything about it because that's my reputation. So we loved her. And the going out on the boat, it really didn't do anything for her that day because she was

looking at past data, but it was more for TV and it was a cool shot. And it was also a different angle for us to look at the dock, which we did want. And yeah, as you said, there were a few things. First, the obvious thing, if you go into the water, regardless of how buoyant you may be, if you're conscious, you're going to float to some degree. However, if you're unconscious or already dead, you'll more than likely sink because you're not taking in oxygen. And so she believed based on the current, as you just said, if she was awake and coherent, she most likely would have floated right to the destination where she was eventually found

like a Bella who died of hypothermia. But because, and this is in Dr. Step's opinion, she believed she went in the water and at that point she was either unconscious, severely injured, or already dead. And that would explain why she not only went in the water, sunk immediately to the bottom, and then she got caught on something at the bottom. Because although it's the water, there are things that get thrown in afterwards. There's rocks, there's trees, there's all these different things that she can get caught on. So in her opinion, what happened was she immediately sunk to the bottom, got stuck on something, the gases filled up in her body as decomposition started to take place, eventually causing her to come off the object she was stuck on,

bringing her back to the surface, and then having her go down the water 23 days later in whatever direction the current was going on that particular day. Okay, and we're going to cut to break really quick, but I do want to ask you some things about that when we get back. All right, we're back. So I just want to clarify some things because I remember this is very similar to the Lacey Peterson situation. What happened, especially here, because it's March, so it's the beginning of March, she goes missing. And Robin doesn't resurface till towards the end of March. So it's cold. It's Maryland. It's very cold in March. It was very cold that night. And that has a lot to do with why the body

wouldn't resurface as well. So you said if she went into the water and she sinks immediately, which is what the oceanographer believes happened because it took so long for Robin to resurface. And if she had gone in the water when she was alive, she would have been pushed by the current out and she would have come up a lot sooner, just like Bella did. So she goes in the water when she was alive, she would have been pushed by the current out and she would have come up a lot sooner, just like Bella did. So she goes in the water. She's either dead when she goes in the water or she's unconscious to the point where she's not going to be taking in a lot of oxygen. So her body's not going to be buoyant and it won't float. She's going to sink right away. So even if she went in after a blow to the head or something that made her unconscious within a very short time, she will be dead because she's not conscious enough to swim and keep herself

afloat. Right. That's kind of what you, that's kind of what we were, what we were going over. That's the, what we believe happened. That's the reason. Yeah. Think about it this way, guys, you go into the water, you're at the beach or whatever. What are you doing? You're swimming around your plane, but you're breathing. So there's air in your lungs. So even when someone's drowning, there's usually air in their lungs while they're in the water. If you're unconscious five, 10 minutes or dead, five or 10 minutes before you're put in the water, you've exhausted all that air out of your lungs. So therefore you're just, no pun intended, but you're dead weight, right? You're just a body at that point. There's not much to keep you

buoyant, to keep you on the surface. And just like a lot of things that you would think, if she went in the water and she was alive and she was swimming and trying to get back to shore, she probably would have floated down to where she was eventually found. Because even when she was found, if you remember from the first part of this, she was found on the surface. It wasn't like there was a crew out there, a rescue crew that was looking for her or a diver that found her on the bottom. Her body floated back up to the surface and she was found under a rock that was shaped like an arrowhead at the surface. The fisherman was just literally with his daughter. He looked down, the body was right there out of nowhere. There was even some people who believed that maybe her body was put in the water afterwards, maybe only a few days prior to her being found. And that was not only discredited by Sergeant

Sexton, but even when I asked Dr. Stepp about it, her body and the level of decomposition based on how cold the water was, was completely consistent with her being in the water for that duration, that 23 day duration. Yeah. And I think that's important because I truly believe, and we're going to go over theories, what we think might have happened at the end of this episode. But I truly believe if she'd gone in there alive, being a strong swimmer, she lived on the water, she was very, very physically fit, strong, I think that she would have been able to swim, right? And she would have been able to swim down, let the current push her, find a place she could

grab onto, she could pull herself up. That's not what happened. So I 1 million percent believe when she went in that water, she was either dead or unconscious. And you also have to think if she's unconscious when she goes in the water, what is she not going to be doing? Holding her breath to prevent water from going into her lungs. So like I said, within a couple minutes, even if she's not dead when she goes in, if she's unconscious, she'll be dead very soon because she's not conscious. She's not awake to know that she needs to be holding her breath and not letting water just go into her mouth and her nose.

Absolutely. One thing here and there you think, oh, maybe she could have jumped in, but we talked about it last episode, the heels, the blouse, the fact that it appears based on science that she sunk immediately. All these little things in totality paint a pretty good picture, which is when she entered the water, she was either severely injured, unconscious, or already dead. Nothing that we found, and we're looking for outliers, nothing that we have found to this point suggests in any way, shape, or form that Robin Pope went into the water under her own

will. Nothing, which is what we're going off of. So if she didn't jump in the water, someone placed her there. And the list of people who could have done that is very short at this point. Yeah. And we even disagreed a little bit last episode because you were like, I don't think I would jump into the water with high heels on. And I was like, well, I mean, as a woman and as a dog owner who feels like her dogs are children, I probably would however once i'm in that water if I realize now I have to swim Myself to safety those those shoes are coming right off. I'm gonna reach down while i'm in the water I'm gonna unfasten them do whatever it takes get them off so that I can swim better She did not attempt to do that. No, so i'll even give you this i'll even give you this

Let's say to your point. She kept her heels on realizes very quickly She's not gonna be able to to get Bella or whatever it is. I still think based on how fit she was and how everyone, her daughters, her friends, they all said she was such a great swimmer. Even in heels, she would have at least been able to swim close to the rocks, get up on them and maybe lay there from exhaustion until someone found her. Like there's doesn't appear to be any attempt for her to make her way back to shore. And those things in conjunction with the heels are what suggests, you know, she never be any attempt for her to make her way back to shore. And those things in

conjunction with the heels are what suggests, you know, she never made any attempts. She went in and wherever she went into the water is where she stayed. She sunk immediately. She probably got caught on something almost right after. I would assume I have no information to back this up that she probably floated a little ways down the bank because I would believe the search effort was incredible. There were family friends. There were divers. I'm assuming they checked the area immediately surrounding her dock.

Oh, yeah, they did. Yeah. Yeah. So she went down right there. They would have found her. So she probably went out a little ways. And then when she came back up, the current took her back towards the shore's that's my guess because it's a big area of water this isn't like a lake guys this is like yeah this is a huge area with chesapeake am i saying that chesapeake bay

yeah chesapeake bay it's ginormous huge so it's like this is not a small area of that their head they had to search and you also have to consider because yeah they they're gonna have divers and stuff but it's like super dark down there because it's deep you know and on top of that they have those boats police boats with the sonar and stuff on them but i did a lot of research into this for another case like those sonar things they're so hard to nail down because a body doesn't really look like a body when it's on with the bottom of a body of water you know it's not like you would think you're just going to see like an arm and a head. It's like there's just all these shapes down there. And the people who are reading the sonar, they're the ones that have to determine like, well, what is this shape? Does this shape look like a body or is it just like a bunch of

stones? They can't just like look at everything that looks like a body and just go down there. Yeah, there's tires down there. There's a lot of things that should not be. Yeah. And then you also have to consider that There's a lot of things that should not be. Yeah. And then you also have to consider that whoever's reading the sonar, like have they had the appropriate training? Because I've seen a couple of cases where the people in the boats with the sonar,

they went over the body several times, but because the person who was reading it had never been in that position before or didn't have the proper training with that specific equipment, they missed it. So there's a lot of factors here that can really like you think, oh, you got police dogs and you got divers and you got boats with sonar like you shouldn't found you should have found her. There's a lot of factors here that make it very difficult

in this body of water. And I did want to talk to you about something because you said there was a massive search. There was the police and her friends and her community. Everyone was looking for her. What do you think it says that Wayne Pope never was? That's a great question. And, you know, I remember us talking about this when we were out there filming the episode. And I try to stay impartial because that's the only way to be objective in your case. So I always try to look at both sides to it.

And this is what I'll say. Super weird. If it was my wife and I had nothing to do with it, I would be searching for her. However, again, what do you always say? Don't come for me. Don't come for me here, but let me just be devil's advocate here. This is a woman. This is if Wayne Pope had nothing to do with it. This is operate under that- In that slim chance that he had nothing to do with it. This is operate under that- In that slim chance that he had nothing to do with it. In that slim chance that he had nothing to do with it. This is a woman that cheated on him. This is a woman that he really didn't have much good things to say about at this point.

If he really didn't have nothing to do with it, he might think that maybe she just took off with a man. And also take away those factors, even though there was nothing to implicate him directly at that point, it was very well known by friends and family. They all thought he did it. They all, everyone thought he did it. So if I were that guy and I didn't do it to go out and with this search and rescue team, when they're all under the assumption that I killed her, I think it would be very awkward. So I could see the reason why he wouldn't. But my mindset, if I didn't do it, would be in spite of that to go out there to prove that I really, in spite of what her and I went through, we were together 20 years. I want

to be out there and I want to find her, maybe not for me, but for my daughters. Right. And then, I mean, not only that, but he did say that they were going to go to counseling and therapy. So apparently you love this woman enough to overlook the fact that she betrayed you, that she broke your heart. You're willing to go to therapy and work it out, but you're not willing to go out there and look for her or even call her friends to see how the search is going or if there's any like updates or to just let them know like, hey, you know, I personally feel awkward about being out there because I know you guys all think I'm guilty, but I want you to know that if you need anything, I'm here. Please call me. Like, I'm just not trying to like get in your way and I don't want to make it awkward for you guys.

But if you want me to help, I'm here. I would like to be there. I just want to respect you. Agreed. 100% agree. I think I think ethically, whether he did it or not, it's a bad look and he should have been out there for his family and again, offered his services, offered his, you know, to volunteer. But I could see, like you said, if he didn't think he, you know, was a good thing, hey, listen, I want this to be

productive. I don't need people out there yelling at me saying I'm a murderer. It's going to take away from the task at hand. And maybe we, you know, we should have asked Sexton this. We didn't. I don't, and I don't think they did, but maybe they said, hey, maybe you should stay away. But I don't think they did that because Sexton has said in the past, there was a whole search team for her for multiple days and Wayne never came out.

So why would he say that if they recommended he... Dave's the type of dude that would have said, no, I told him not to go. And he hasn't. Yeah. So that was very odd to me,

but let's dive into the interview with Sexton and then come back and go over our final thoughts. Absolutely. This is a good one, guys. Make sure you watch the whole thing. It's really, really enlightening.

All right, guys. So as promised, we have Sergeant Dave Sexton. Or do you like David? Dave's fine. Dave Sexton. You guys heard me talk about him last week. We talk about law enforcement. We know the system is not perfect by any means, but it's always nice when you have someone who checks their

ego at the door and ultimately wants what everybody else wants, which is to solve this case. And he has said to me since day one, listen, I got to stay within the parameters of my responsibilities as an investigator. But if someone out there has information that can assist him in solving this case, he's all for it. And that still applies today. The case is still open. So as we sit here and we talk to him, he's going to tell us what he can, even though it's an open investigation. And if anybody out there hears anything or see something that you think is helpful, Sarge, they can reach out to the Maryland State Police, I'm assuming. There's a line they can reach out to?

They can reach out to... I can give my work email if they want to email me. So it's david.sexton at maryland, spelled out, dot gov. And guys't abuse that. If it don't just email him to tell him he's a handsome looking fella. I'll track you down. He can, he can track you down. So again, don't inundate him. Don't tell him how gorgeous he is. Just, you know, the only use it for, for obviously legitimate reasons. So without further ado, we're going to dive into it. We have some questions from last week's episode that we said we were going to talk to david about and obviously stephanie's stephanie was literally yelling at me before i hit record because she started getting into questions and she was like let's let's go derek let's get it going so stephanie the floor is yours okay so i have i have a couple questions

i wanted to talk i wanted to start with the timeline because i think that's where we um kind of struggled the most last night when we recorded the first episode. And that was because Derek did it wrong. He did the math wrong. So eventually we had to figure it out. It put us 45 minutes behind. GMT, man. GMT.

That's what the phone companies use and it's just you wish you would just do it as far as Eastern Standard Time or West Coast Time. Whatever time zone. Whatever time zone, but they don't. It would be too logical. From what we understand of the timeline, you believe that Robin left the restaurant and left Annapolis around 9.30, correct? That's correct. That would put her going over the Bay Bridge, heading back towards Wayne's house at around 10.05, right? Correct.

She talks to him on the phone. What was it, about 10.12? She's actually coming across the Bay Bridge about that time just to say, hey, look, I am on my way over. This is what we're speculating because that's what Wayne says. But I'm on my way over to pick up my mail. She needed to pick up a postal digger because the next morning she was going to work on a fencing project, kind of like a side hustle type thing for her. And basically, that's what she was telling him through his words, not through hers. But we don't have anything

recorded or anything like that. And then we have text messages back and forth between her and him. Hey, I'm coming over. Can I come over and pick up the postal digger? Can I come over and get my mail and see Bella, the dog? What was she doing in Annapolis? Because she had texted him earlier and said she was at a job interview. She was meeting up with a general manager of GNC over in Annapolis because she was looking, she was looking for another, you know, just another job, an extra, some extra cash. And, uh, she was meeting with him,

I guess for drinks or something to, to go over, you know, kind of like a, a little interview, I guess. Um, they met,

uh, and then she came back after they met. I don't know how long they, they were, uh, off memory. I, I don't remember,

but it was, it was probably at least an hour over there in Annapolis at a restaurant in Annapolis. And you believe that while she was in Annapolis, Wayne also was in Annapolis. Wayne actually told us that he had gone to Annapolis to meet with friends. I think he said between 5 and 5.30, he met with some friends for dinner. And then at some point, he was going to go see his daughter, Rachel, who was supposedly working over there. But I think, and correct, I may be wrong, but I don't think she was working that night.

But basically, he told us that he was going to go drop off some food for her. And Rachel, when we talked to Rachel, says, well, my dad really never drops food off to me. But then we found out pretty much, we were pretty sure that he wanted to find out where Robin was because he knew that she could be out with another man because of their problems in the past. So they were separated, of course, because of the marital problems. She wasn't living at home. And I think he was acting like the jealous husband, the estranged husband, and he wanted to know where she was. And did you verify that he had dinner with friends in Annapolis that night? Yeah, we talked to the friends in Annapolis. He did have dinner. And I

can't remember the time exactly, but it was probably, I want to say 5 or 5.30. But based on what I remember our conversation, that was verified. But without getting into too many specifics, you were able to pretty much confirm that even after that dinner he stuck around annapolis for a while a lot after that dinner right and so and and that correlated with the time just so happens to correlate with the time that that's when robin was there as well correct so the question becomes what you know what were you doing there if you weren't seeing seeing Rachel and the dinner was already over, which you were able to talk to those individuals, I'm assuming you had coordinates that were in line with where Robin was. I think it's there or somewhere near the mall. And this restaurant happened to be in the mall. So he tells us he was going to see Rachel. And I can't remember the name of the restaurant. Interesting. And basically that was his, I guess, alibi for being over there to see Rachel.

But I think we came to the conclusion that Rachel wasn't even working that night. She was actually with friends somewhere. I want to say in College Park. So wait, Robin was having dinner or drinks at a restaurant in the mall. Around the mall. Around the mall. Wayne was in that general area. Wayne was in that general area. He was in that general area, yeah.

And he even tells us that he was in that general area. Okay. Looking, you know, going to see Rachel. He doesn't say that he went to see Robin or he was stalking Robin or anything like that. But we were, and I can't really talk about it, but we do know that he was pretty much there to find out where she was. I don't think he found her.

He probably found her car, but I don't think he knew exactly where she was. He wasn't watching her, but he had an inclination she was there, which is why he stuck around. Real quick, Stephanie, before you go into that, Dave, just to give everyone a perspective here, because Stephanie has been researching these cases for a long time, but there's a lot of new people who don't really know how the mind of, you know, I'm a former detective, but I'm not in it anymore. You're in it. You're in the field right now. You're a Sergeant you're handling your Maryland state police, not a small department.

Let people have a little bit of an insight as to why this is important, not just for this case, but in general, why is it so important to establish going into as far as, hey, listen, motives, things like that. Why is this important to an investigator where this isn't the actual crime scene, but it's just as important because you're trying to establish a motive for it, right? Exactly. So how does that work for you? How does that go into these cases? I think with this case, I mean, we pretty much try to lock people into a story. And then once we lock them into a story, then we have to go out and do more investigation

as far as, okay, did he go to dinner with these friends? Yes, he did. Okay, did he meet Rachel? No, he didn't. Once we lock them into a story, then of course we have to check off, there's a red flag, here's a red flag. Credibility. That kind of thing, when you lock somebody into a story right away

and they're scrambling to figure out what they should say, most times they will say something and I guess maybe he thought Rachel would say, yeah, I was working or maybe he thought she was working and she would say to us, yeah, I was working that night, but that was something that he said that was in error. And we know that he didn't even – she didn't see him that night. And if your daughter's working in the mall and you're at the mall to go see her, even if you don't bring her any food or anything, why didn't you go into the shop where she was working and say, hey, I'm heading back to. Um, but I just want to say hi to you. No, that kind of thing. Yeah. So it's, so it's a, so it's checking out possible motives and also gauging the credibility of someone that you're dealing with. Cause at this point, he's a person of interest, you know, he's just someone that you're talking to obviously,

but just like in any case, guys, what, what he's saying here is, you know, initially we take it an initial statement from these people. We want to see what their initial reaction is because a lot of times if they're telling the truth, it'll just come from the, you know, from the brain to the mouth. And then it allows them to have some data to go back and cross-reference to kind of gauge whether it's a witness or a person of interest, how much they can be trusted. And like you just said, in this particular case, they get a story, they lock it in, right? They have it on paper and they can go back and do what they do, which is to confirm or discredit what they're saying. It's interesting stuff. And it's something that this is how a case starts, guys. From the start,

they're not going into it with any bias. They're just looking at it objectively. Hey, Wayne, you tell us what happened. We don't know. What's the situation? And then all you do is go back and confirm whether he's telling the truth or not. It's not that difficult. And, you know, he didn't deny that she was at that, that she came to the house. You know, her car was still there. Of course, when he called police or he called 911, the car and her purse and everything

was still there. So it wasn't like he was denying that she didn't come to the house. So we know that she came to the house and at some point, this whole thing about falling asleep and waking up and finding her parked outside and her dozed off in the car, that's all a lie. That's a lie. I 100% believe that's a lie. And he says he leaves because he doesn't like being at the house the same time she is because in the past they've had problems. And his attorney says, hey, when Robin comes by the house to see the dog or whatever, to pick up things, you leave and let her do what she does so you guys don't have any problems. There's no allegations.

We always – we were – whenever we were investigating this case initially, I was very surprised that she came over in the evening because that place is very dark. It was very cold. It was almost March 1st. The wind had been blowing probably 25 miles an hour. It's right on the bay, the house. Oh, yeah. You took me there. Yeah, you know.

You know how cold it is. It's cold, man. So we were very surprised that she came to the house by herself. I don't know if he said something to her on the phone that made her come. But I mean, she's texting him back and forth saying, but, you know, I don't think think enough to to cloud, you know, cloud her her, you know, cloud her memory or cloud her her judgment. Exactly. Just for the purposes of kind of making it more organized for the listener, I'm going to go kind of back to the timeline. And then as we go upon these areas, then I want to really pick your brain about what exactly was happening at that point. So I'm going to go back. I'm going to go back to 545. She texts him. Robin texts Wayne and says, on a job interview, what's up? We think at this point, Wayne is in Annapolis and Robin's in

Annapolis. Yes. Is there any time where he texts her and he lets her know he's in Annapolis or is he making that kind of a secret? No, he never allowed. Now, I may be wrong. I don't have the case. Like I said, I don't have the case file in front of me. But I don't recall him ever texting her saying, hey, I'm in Annapolis too. We should meet up or whatever. I don't think that... The only thing he did was he was in Annapolis with friends to eat dinner. And then at

some point he was driving around, maybe even walking around looking for her car or something just to find out where she was. And at 9.03 PM, Wayne calls Rachel. Is he in Annapolis at that point? I don't recall. I think he was in Annapolis. I don't recall that at all. Do you know what he talked to her about? No. Not off the top of your head? Okay. Not off the top of my head, no. Nothing that gave us any kind of red flag as far as conversation. Okay. So when she's driving, she gets there. All those texts come through at 1059. Can I get my

mail? Can I get my mail? Can I get my mail? Derek and I were thinking this has to be some sort of glitch. She couldn't have texted them all like that and sent them so quickly. Was it a service glitch where because it's so isolated, the phone dropped service and it didn't send the texts until the service kicked back in? Or was Wayne's phone off? So the cell phone records aren't going to show that those texts came in until 1059 because then the longer text comes in right after that as well. I think that it was a service glitch because that area, the cell service is terrible right on that peninsula. And her cell, even if his cell phone was off, her cell is still sending the text messages. So I think it had to do with the cell service itself.

And if it was, I know with kind of a storm coming through and the wind and everything, that definitely has more problems. My dog decided to come. Canine sad. He's hearing about the story. Okay. So as far as the text messages, the times, I think that was definitely service-oriented. Cell tower.

You know what's interesting, Dave? And it was something that Stephanie brought up when we recorded part one. And it's a really fascinating theory. And I think it has some credence to it because I think a lot of people, including myself, you know, the assumption is that it was a service thing where she didn't have service and then, or he didn't have service. And then all of a sudden there's this blast of these four texts that were probably sent further apart, but they all went through at the same time.

But just to, just to entertain the idea for a second, because again, you got to think of everything and explore all possibilities. You know, what if, what if he had shut his phone off for a short period of time? So she couldn't call him. And then, you know, according to Wayne, he falls asleep and he doesn't wake up till 1130. So technically at 10 59, he's, he's sleeping. It's intro. I got that in the air quotes for the audio people, by 1059, he's sleeping. It's intro. I got that in air quotes for the audio people, by the way. He's sleeping. However, if Stephanie's theory that that actually represents

the time where the phone was turned on, if there were a way to prove that, it would completely contradict the idea or his alibi that he was sleeping. I don't think you can but do you know of any he has we only had wayne's cell phone records that was the issue we don't have robin so we could be able to tell from robin's if she had sent them at different times we have we have robin's also so um i couldn't really tell you what you know i i can surmise that as far as Wayne's phone, he could have turned his phone off. He could have acted like he was asleep because he's done it before where she has come over to the house to pick up mail and said, hey, I'm coming over.

This is in the daytime. And then Wayne says, yeah, okay, sure. And then doesn't, you know, open the door for her. Just to give her a hard time. Just to give her a hard time. Because he's a control freak. Exactly. So he can do that.

So he's done that in the past. And I have no doubt that he did it this time. And maybe it was done for more sinister actions than just messing with her. Yeah. It's interesting to think though, right? I mean, it's again, not something you can prove, but imagine if you could, if you could, if there was a technology or a way to determine through the carrier that, Hey, listen, there was service in that area at that time. And you know, there was no outage or something and we can tell,

and I don't think you can, but you can tell when someone electronically activates or deactivates a phone, whether it's airplane mode or completely physically turning the phone off. Like, hey, the phone itself was not receiving a signal from 1045 to 1059. Again, I don't think it's possible, but when she brought it up last night, I said, ooh, you know what you're saying there, right, Stephanie? You're saying that if you're right, that shows right there, even though he's trying to play the whole, I was asleep. I didn't get it. Those text messages coming in succinctly like that could represent a time where he was active on his phone. You know, you know, you just,

it's an interesting question to pose. Unfortunately, we may not have the answer, but again, and it's, I'm glad you brought it up. We don't have Robin's call logs and for good reason, you have them, but I'm sure people are going to ask us like, oh, you know, did they cross-reference Robin's text messages and phone calls with this? And I'm assuming your answer would be. Oh yeah. Yeah. You guys looked into that. We looked extensively into those cell records just because we couldn't interview Robin, of course.

So basically our interview for Robin was her text messages. We knew that she was out with a job interview. We knew she asked Wayne if she could come over. I wasn't real concerned with the service issues, whether he had his phone on or not, because I had Robin's phone. We knew that she was coming over there at a certain time, but we also know that this whole thing about, oh, I fell asleep before she got here. And then an hour later I woke up. That is all total BS and a lie. You called them out on that in the interrogation.

Oh, yeah. What you said exactly, they were on the call for 13 minutes. She was only about, what, 15 minutes away at that point? If that. And I said, you knew she was coming over. And then you laid down on the couch and fell asleep and woke up in an hour when you know that your wife, your estranged wife that you're having problems with is coming over to pick up mail and see the dog and pick up this postal digger. Didn't make sense at all. Now, I can understand if she was an hour away and you fall asleep, but he was on the phone with her back and forth texting, and he knew she was coming over.

I wasn't real concerned about the timeline with the service glitches because being over there- You already came to the conclusion he wasn't sleeping. We were having problems with service over there when we were over there doing search warrants and things like that. We know that there was a delay, but I had problems with his story, especially that aspect of the story, the hour long. I fell asleep at 1030 and woke up at 1130. Because Robin would not have parked the car and just waited for him to come out to tell her, hey, you can go in.

She would have probably gone up and knocked on the door. Hey, where's my mail? And then, of course, he did the same thing that he's done in past history. We checked with the local sheriff's office there and state police, and they've had to go out a couple times for that reason where she was coming to pick up something, kind of like a domestic-related thing where she needs a police officer to be there so that nothing happens. Keep the peace. Yeah. So we know that he's done it in the past, and this night I don't think was any different. Let me ask you a question. She got there at 1030.

He says he didn't wake up till 1130. That's when he sees her in his car, in her car. He said he was sleeping on the couch. You're familiar with the layout of the house. Where's the couches? You know, when you're looking at the front door, where would the couch or the living room be?

So I think that the couch was kind of backed up to a window that, that faces out the back toward the bay. If memory serves me correct. And the house is up a little higher than where the driveway is, so he may have seen headlights. What I'm thinking is- He would have seen or heard Robin knocking on the door. She would have knocked on the door and Bella's inside. The dog's going to bark. I have dogs.

Every time somebody walks up to the house they go crazy barking so we're to believe he's asleep on the couch and she's obviously gonna knock on the door she's not gonna sit in her car and wait for him like you said bella's gonna start going crazy and barking and he's not going to wake up so i mean off the record if you want but is it your belief that in that hour period between 10 30 and 11 30 if wayne was the person who killed want, but is it your belief that in that hour period between 1030 and 1130, if Wayne was the person who killed her, is that when it happened? I totally believe that between 1030 and 1130, that that is when something happened to Robin. Whether it was, and I know we've talked about it before, Derek, as far as whether it was a terrible accident

or whether he got into a fight with her, got her to the pier and pushed her in, or maybe knocked her over, maybe knocked her out and threw her in. But there's so many theories right now that we have. I mean, I've got a couple of theories, and I know I've talked to Derek about it. I think he used the dog to get her to that area, to that point, because he's done things in the past with the dog, like throwing the dog in a pool. Yeah, we covered it in episode one.

Or telling Robin that he put the dog down. Put the dog down, exactly. And that was corroborated by a cable guy who was at her house when this happened. So it wasn't like one of her friends made up a story or something. This was corroborated by a cable guy that had no association with her at all, except for putting in cable. Yeah, no skin in the game. What about keys? Stephanie and I hit on that a little bit. They were together for almost 20 years. She was living there with him before this whole incident went down. Were you able to

establish whether or not she still had keys to the house or whether he switched? I'm assuming he might've switched the locks. I believe, and I can't say 100%, but I believe he changed the locks so that she wouldn't be able to get in. That's why she had to call him all the time to make sure that he was there so that he could open the door for her. Right. And she left the keys in the car. Whenever she got out for whatever reason, there was a reason she left the keys behind

because they were useless at that house. She wasn't going to use the keys for the house. Yeah. I want to ask you about Wayne's trip. And there's a few reasons I want to ask you about it because Derek and I were going over it yesterday. The timeline doesn't really make sense to me. Now, one of Robin's friends, Debbie, she says Wayne comes to her house around like 1.15 in the morning. Yes.

And he's asking her, have you seen Robin? Wayne's at the 7-Eleven, two towns over, at 1.07 a.m. It's about an eight-minute drive from where he was back to Stevensville. So when does he have time from 7-Eleven, between 7-Eleven and Debbie's house, to go home and see that Robin and Bella are gone? And then look for them long enough to realize that he needs to now go wake her friend up in the middle of the night. And like I said, I would have to see the timelines and all that stuff. But I know that that 7-Eleven trip was basically like

Derek and I had talked about before, kind of like, hey, look at me. I'm Wayne. I'm coming into 7-Eleven. Yeah, but where's the time for him to go back to his house, be like, oh, Robin and Bella aren't here. That 7-Eleven is not that far away from their house. I know you said two towns over, but it's really not. It's eight minutes. Yeah.

So what I'm saying is if he's at Debbie's house at 115 and he's at 7-Eleven at 107 and it takes eight minutes to drive from the 7-Eleven back to his house, when did he check to see that Robin and Bella were missing and he couldn't find them? I don't have an answer for you. I don't know as far as the interview goes. His interview states that he went to – and we always thought it was weird that he would have gone to a friend's house first. He goes to a friend's house. In the middle of the night. When his wife's car is there, she's not going to walk to the friend's house unless she got picked up by her friend at the house. Then you could just call. Just call. house unless she got picked up by her friend at the house.

Just call. So why not call 911 first? Say, look, my wife is here. We're estranged. She came to pick up something. I left because my attorney told me not to be here. And when I came back, she's gone. So why go to Debbie's house?

Why go to 7-Eleven? There's no time for him to have gone home and and saw that that robin abella so he already so he already knew that she was something yeah yeah and that's what we were trying to that's what we were trying to establish because i did say to give i'm not trying to give wayne any out here obviously um i said in the episode how i feel about it but you know it's one of those things where even if the timeline is a little off where he didn't go to Debbie's till like 1.20 or 1.30, like I was saying to Stephanie, sometimes the times the recollections can be off five or 10, maybe even 20, some people are really off. But to Stephanie's point, even if it is to go home, see that she's not there, look the house look at the dock look around process

process that hey something's not right here i need to go talk to someone it's going to take longer than 10 minutes it's going to be a series of phone calls and text messages to her first then once you've tried everything there were not there was nothing yeah there was nothing so that's what we're getting at here on top of everything else before going to debbie's house it doesn't make any sense and then he calls her at what 130 or something 140 and he says call me 128 call me yeah why did he do that as far as you remember from interviewing him wouldn't he have looked inside of her car before figuring out she was missing and saw that her cell phone was in there? So why would he be texting her?

Yeah. I don't know why he'd do that. I know maybe at some point, maybe he just thought, hey, maybe I better call her cell phone and make it look like I'm, you know, I want to know where she is. Now, I don't know. I don't know that he saw her cell phone. Well, that's what I was wondering. If he had something to do with this, if he had something to do with her disappearance and then, you know, I can't really say murder. Death. Her death. Because right now her death is still, you know.

Undetermined. Undetermined. Because when she was found, there was no blunt force trauma. There was no, you know. There was no gunshots. Clear that up for people though. There was nothing. Clear that up for people. It's not that that didn't happen. Her body was so badly decomposed, it was unable to be determined, right? It's not... Guys, what he's saying is, and it does say

there was no blunt force trauma, no stab wounds, no nothing like that. No visible. No visible doesn't mean it didn't occur it just means that she was in the water for 23 days and the the coroner the the doctor was unable to determine if those injuries existed because of how badly the body was decomposed big difference there yeah there was nothing there was nothing outwardly observed. Now, was she struck on the head and knocked out and then fell in the bay? If it was something minor, then of course, being in the bay for that long, you wouldn't see any kind of bruising or anything on the skin, anything like that.

So that's what we're looking at. I mean, that's what we think happened, that she was either struck or pushed in. And she's struggling. It was very cold. The water was very cold. Maybe got disoriented. Still wearing her high heels. Still wearing her high heels.

So, you know, definitely they think that she was alive when she went in but that's still undetermined because a lot of times um you go in and even if even if you're let's say that she was knocked out and breathing shallow you, had some shallow breathing or not breathing at all, that much time in the bay, you're still going to have a little bit of water inside your lungs. So that's why it's all undetermined. Believe me, when I was elated when her body was found and then dejected when I went to the autopsy and there was nothing to show that she had been murdered or that it was a homicide. So that's the whole problem with this case is that- Water, man. Yeah, water. It's a bitch. It's a bitch on when it comes to a homicide investigation for sure. And like I said, there are so many red flags with him, um, not wanting to take the polygraph

and telling us he was going to take the polygraph and his timeline with the set, like you said, with the seven 11 and going to his parents' house, nobody seeing him, you know, that all, uh, those are all red flags. And he had motive. He had opportunity. There were no witnesses at all, with the exception of people the next morning watching what he was doing once the dog was found. I guess I don't know if you ever touched on the dog, but the dog was found the next morning and it was determined by a vet that the dog didn't drown. The dog died of hypothermia. So the dog was able to get to the banks of the bay, but because of the riprap, the big rocks and things like that, and because of how old bella was she was almost 10 um and for a big dog

like that um that's very old she she was very old uh yeah great dean's life expectancy probably couldn't even get up or maybe she was trying to go back for robin we don't know when he um found the dog well he didn't find the dog his neighbor did she said he looked at at the dog once he made a comment like that's not the worst of it my wife and my dog went missing yesterday he walked away yet later he told you he sustained these injuries on his sides the bruising and the scratching from trying to get bella out of the water but we know from elaine jerry that's not what happened the neighbor said he never once uh once reached down to try to pick the dog up. Somebody else did that. He didn't do that.

So did you ever say to him, Wayne, that was a lie? How did you really get these injuries? How did you really get these wounds? Because I mean, I've been keeping track. We're at like four lies right now, just straight out. Yeah. I mean, we knew that was a lie. And he basically said that's where he – she doesn't – my neighbor didn't see me.

She wasn't watching me the entire time. I did try to go down and pick up Bella. We know that that was a lie. So the other speculation is maybe that he got that injury from being on the edge of the pier, whether he was pushing her in and he fell or trying to keep her from coming back. Because the water was up to, I think at the time it was a low tide. So it was only nine feet deep. Nine feet. Yeah. So I don't know how I remembered that,

but, um, must've been from breaking homicide. Cause that's what I remember. No, I had to look it up. So you're better than me. I,

we had to look at, I had to rewatch the episode too. So, uh, maybe fighting with the dog or trying to, trying to throw the dog in, you know, he's on his knees.

He tries to throw the dog, throws the dog in Robin, you know, tries to go after the dog. We don't, we don't know. There's so much speculation, so many theories at that point. What we do know is that he was there and he probably had something to do with her murder. And I can't say murder, her death. He told, he had mentioned to Debbie, I believe, Robin and I are working things out. We're going to counseling. We're going to therapy. Was there anything in her texts, anything that you heard from her friends or family that suggested Robin had agreed to try to work things out with Wayne or they were attending some sort of therapy or she'd called or had an appointment for some sort of therapy, anything you came across of that nature? I want to say, and this may be completely off,

but I do remember that I think initially they wanted to do some kind of counseling. Wayne didn't want to do it. And then all of a sudden, near the end, before her disappearance, I think he was suggesting counseling and she didn't, you know, it was basically, you know, they did not want to, they never did counseling unless they did it in the beginning. But, um, uh, I know through talking to friends and I, you know, it's been a while since I've, you know, uh, talked about that, but, uh, I know that at some point Wayne did not want to do counseling at all.

He was just, he was so incensed by, you know, her infidelity that he didn't want to do anything. And then maybe later on they, they tried to work it out. And then of course, you know, I think anybody that she met any, any, if he found out about her meeting a guy for dinner or anything, that just brought all that back. Was she dating somebody at that point? Because I'm sure at this point, she and Rob were no longer in contact. No, they were not. Rob had a fiance, so he basically, he was like, and I think Robin thought that Rob was going to stick around and he didn't once it was all out. Of course, that relationship stopped.

As far as anybody knew, I don't know of anybody. So do you think that maybe Wayne was upset because he had chased her boyfriend away, maybe thinking that this would cause her to sort of reconcile with him. And then when it didn't, he couldn't even say, well, it's no longer because she's with somebody else. It truly is now that she just doesn't want to have anything to do with me. Do you think that that could have maybe triggered him a little bit towards the end there? I think the whole infidelity was the one that that was the thing that triggered him um and him but you said he wanted to work it out at some point that he wanted even after finding that out he wanted to go to therapy or he was willing to at one point but then she no longer

was yeah i i don't think any any therapy would have helped either either of them, but I think he was just more incensed about, you know, and maybe that could be, you know, I don't know what was in his mind as far as his marriage goes, as far as if, you know, he breaks her up, if he breaks up the boyfriend relationship and then maybe she'll come back to me type thing. I don't know, maybe, but, um, you know, I think the main thing was that it was her infidelity and, you know, um, just from, you know, past history talking to friends about how he treated her during her cancer and things like that. Um, he was, uh, he was definitely a control freak and,

um, you know, and things like that. He was definitely a control freak and not real nice to his wife who had breast cancer. And that's just from friends. I never heard anything from Wayne. Right. That's from her friend. Getting away from the character of Wayne for a second and really focusing on something tangible, right? Evidence, right? Something that's objective, something that tells a story, whether you want to hear that story or not

to me is Robin's blouse. And I thought that was a, you know, there's not a ton of evidence that's been released publicly, but you guys might have more, which is fine. But as far as the blouse, what was your takeaway from the blouse? The fact that it was found perfectly intact, we talked about this and yet it was completely inside out and the blouse the fact that it was found perfectly intact we talked about this and yet it was completely inside out and the blouse correct me if i'm wrong was found right around the same time that bell was found maybe it was a day later or day before so i forgot a couple weeks after okay so it was after but but it was well before robin was found and again a week before robin was found but yet it was in a completely different condition

as opposed to some of the other things she was wearing closer to where bella was found yes correct so it followed that same current peers down um there were so many theories about that blouse uh in talking to guys from from dnr from of Natural Resources, who deal with people that drown in the bay. They talk about the currents that come through the bay. They're so strong. Sometimes they will rip clothes off and shoes and things off of people that are in the bay for a prolonged period of time. Did they – were Wayne and Robin fighting on the pier? And did he grab it and somehow it gets taken off? And then once it gets taken off, it goes back into the bay and maybe floats

or just kind of floats down to where it was found. We had so many people giving us an opinion about that. We really don't know. My initial reaction was that it was probably the bay, the current, because of how strong the currents are in that area. I mean, we're not talking about we're in a little tributary or little stream off of the bay. This is directly in the bay. You can see the other side. You can see the western shore from their eastern shore. And in between that, you see all those huge ships coming up the channel. So they are in the bay. What do you make of, so the blouse,

the blouse, we don't know exactly, but the piece of shirt, the t-shirt or whatever it is that that's tied, that's wrapped around her hand when she's found, what is, what is Maryland state police belief on that? Is that a shirt that she was wearing under the blouse or is that kind of an unknown factor at this point where it could belong to someone else or she just picked it up along the bottom of the bay? I think that was something that she wore under the under the blouse um and then all that time in the bay it probably got torn up torn up a little bit and um and then of course it's it can't uh it it got stuck on you know stuck on her wrist and that part that portion of the of the shirt the shirt we we talked about this when we we did the case, you know, stuck on her wrist and that part, that portion of the, of the shirt, the shirt. We, we talked about this when we, we did the case and you know, it's something that

still to me, I think holds a lot of weight, which is that shirt that was wrapped around her hand. And our viewers will see the picture is torn to shreds. It's literally almost unidentifiable. And yet the blouse itself is in perfect condition. And I think most people would assume that whatever happened, the blouse came off before she went in the water or immediately after, because there's no way the shirt that was underneath that blouse got that torn up, but yet the blouse sustained no damage whatsoever. It just doesn't make sense. It would have to damage the outer layer before getting to that under layer. So I don't think anybody, whether you're a detective or just somebody who watches these things would say, oh no, it's possible that the shirt underneath could get torn to shreds,

but the shirt that she was allegedly wearing on top of it had no damage whatsoever. Well, my theory is that maybe that shirt, maybe that blouse came off initially within the first two days that she was in the water on the bottom. Because once a body goes in and once you drown, you don't float, you sink. You don't sink all the way, but at some point you sink to the bottom. And then that water was very cold. That's why it took so long for her body to be recovered because that water was very cold and it kept her from decomposing like a person. If a person drowns in the summertime in 68 degree water, they are going to come up, float,

so to speak, within a couple of days. In the wintertime, if you have sub-zero temperatures or freezing temperatures, it's going to take a little while for the body to float up. That's what happened with Lacey Peterson. Yep. Yeah. The same thing. I'm still stuck on the blouse with it being not on

her body when she entered and the only reason being is we've all had a button-up shirt you and i did you know obviously stephanie where when you have the shirt on and especially this shirt because from the picture when she was alive it was very tight form fitting if you put a shirt on and you try to take that shirt off not using your hands and trying to get both arms out of the sleeves simultaneously. Good luck. I want to take a video of it because I want to see you do it. We need to put you on. We need to make you go viral.

So for me to have that shirt come off from the current or from rocks and not sustain any damage, because it would take an outside force to help maneuver it off, which I still don't think would be possible to get her arms out of those sleeves. It would literally have to be a perfect situation where one arm comes out, then the other. So it's my belief, and this isn't influenced by you or anyone, that that blouse went in the water before or after she was in the water. You can come to your own conclusions how that would happen, but that just makes more logical sense to me yep stephanie did you have anything else i see your head spinning her high heels were they were they heels that were strapped on you

know like little i don't know i don't wear high heels i hate them but the the kinds that kind of have this little like strap where you can kind of tighten them no they were slip on, but it's those heels that have the elastic band that goes around the, I can't remember if it goes around the Achilles or around the top that kind of keeps your heels on. That's why we were very, at some point I was like, wow, she has her heels on still, but those heels had this elastic band. And I remember it was kind of a thicker band that kept those heels on. It wasn't like a little strap, like a buckle. It was a slip-on and then this kind of elastic strap that kind of kept her foot in there once she put it in. Her heels, they were slip-ons? They weren't the ones you can tighten and they were still on

but the blouse was off? No, what I'm saying is the heels had this elastic band that kept them almost like... Where was it?

And her feet probably swelled almost immediately. Oh, it bloated from the water. Yeah, so almost immediately within the first...

I never had any problem with the heels being on you know of course other than the fact that why would she jump in the water voluntarily with them on you said the her body her feet are going to swell almost immediately pretty quickly water just like us like even if you go in the water you're alive after a couple hours especially if the water's so cold her feet are gonna get well my thing is if she goes in the water and she's either unconscious or or or really, she's not moving much. So she might sink to the bottom and just sit there and not move. And then that's maybe 12, 24, 48 hours where she doesn't move. And your body will start to absorb the water around you. And very quickly, you're going to start to, you're going

to hate to say it, but you're going to start to kind of absorb that and you you blow and then you take into consideration the gases and stuff that takes place over a longer period of time the minute she enters the water the process of her feet getting slightly bigger slowly starts to occur yeah just like if you're in a pool for a prolonged period of time and your your hands start to to prune and think your your skin's going to start to prune. And especially if you are deceased in the water, your skin is going to start to absorb that water. And as far as the heels, I don't, like Derek said, I think at some point during her decomposition, the feet are going to swell too.

But those heels were on very well. They didn't come off until we took them off once the medical examiner took them off. The autopsy. Even being recovered. She's going to sink. There's not going to be a ton of movement while she's sinking, bloating from the water. Then by the time she starts moving with the current when she come kind of comes back up and starts floating she's already with gases to the point where the shoes they ain't coming like i said i wish i could um yeah i wish i could know what shoes those were i can't even walk in heels without them flying off

a heel expert um don't lie i know derrick is me, I am. I'm not a heel expert, but I know that these heels were different from the little heels where you buckle them. It had a strap that actually kept them on. Once they slipped in, they were in. We're coming to the end of this, but I want to just take it full circle because we've talked about facts. There's not a lot of opinions going on here. Maybe more opinions bait from me and Stephanie, but you're just telling us what you remember of the case. And obviously part of your process being objective, you have to entertain the idea that although there's clear signs of deception from Wayne, that there is a small possibility that this was a tragic accident. Is that fair to say? It's fair to say. I mean, we have an undetermined death. So anytime you have an undetermined death,

you are going to have... Of course, with some of his statements and timelines and things like that, we're looking at something that may be something that he was the catalyst for. But like you said, maybe he left and she's with Bella and Bella goes, she's an older dog and she goes on to the pier and she falls in. And everybody that we talked to said that if that dog were to fall in anywhere or need to be rescued, she would be the first person in the water to go rescue that dog. So that could have happened.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility, but we have Wayne that gives us his, and most things don't add up, especially from the time that she arrives and then what his story is as far as what happened after she arrived. Because if it's an accident, why does he lie, right? Right. Also saying, if it's an accident and he was there, why didn't he call 911 and say, oh my God, my wife just fell off the pier and I can't find her? Yep, she went under. The other thing is, okay, let's say he did leave and she was still alive and this happened. I don't believe that at all, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility that something like that could have happened. It's 2013 when this occurs, we're sitting in 2021. Where does this case stand now without

giving away anything that you're not allowed to say? Obviously the case is still open, but what would you like our listeners, our viewers to know as they sit here today, where this case stands. It still stands as being a cold case. It's still undetermined as far as the death investigation is concerned. But if anybody has any information about anything involving this case, and I'm not talking about what you watched on a podcast or a show, I'm talking about information that you've heard pretty much from the horse's mouth or maybe some friends or family that know the whole situation. You know, I will always entertain information. And like I said, I'm not going to entertain information, you know, from people reading

an article or something like that. But if you have some evidence or in this case, we don't have much evidence, but I think it's going to be mostly things that people hear about what happened or somebody says something, then that would be great. Well, and just to put it out there, as far as everyone's concerned, Wayne is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Then he should be treated as such. So we don't want anybody contacting him, going to his place of work, reaching out to him via phone, text, email. Do not do that. Stephanie and I do not want that happening. I'm sure Sergeant Sexton doesn't want that happening. So please do not contact him in any way, shape, or form. He is innocent in the eyes of the law. And that's the way we have to look at it. Sergeant Sexton, I want to thank you for

your time. I appreciate the transparency. We talk about this a lot. Stephanie and I, we don't always agree on it. We talk about law enforcement working with the public in a way that doesn't jeopardize the case, but can still possibly assist because there may be somebody out there, like you said, that can help you in getting to the finish line, whether it's to determine this was an accident or this was something more than that. So I'm sure this is refreshing for Stephanie, right? I mean, from your perspective compared to what we usually get, and I'm sure that our viewers really appreciate this. So thank you for your time and stay safe out there. Thank you. Okay. So that was great. And we really want to talk

to you guys about it, but hold on one second and just let's hear from our final sponsor before we dive into our final thoughts. All right, we're back. So let's talk about what we thought, like that's a lot of information. What we went through in part one, what we went through at the beginning of this part. Plus, Dave Sexton's interview, which I was really enlightened about. I'm so glad that he was so open to answering our questions, too. Because there were things we went over. And there were a couple things that we heard from him that we hadn't heard before.

Such as the mall thing, right? The fact that Robin and Wayne's youngest daughter worked at this mall in Annapolis. Robin also happened to be in that general area, like probably at a restaurant at the mall that night with another gentleman. Wayne's in Annapolis that night. He tells Sexton later that he was bringing his youngest daughter food. She says she never gets the food, but we now are kind of believing that maybe he just said he was there to bring her food to explain why he was in the general area of that mall where Robin, his wife, his estranged wife happened to be at that time sharing a meal with another man. So that was a very interesting thing that I hadn't known before. Yeah, it really is. And I didn't know the specifics that it was a mall. I knew

that he was in town that night, all that good stuff. And again, to be more specific, he basically said, listen, he did have a justifiable reason for being there for a little while, but it appears that he stayed longer. So what we read between the lines is GPS coordinates put him there a lot longer. They probably talked to people that he had visited that night. Cause I guess he went out to dinner first too. And then was supposed to bring Rachel something, his daughter. So they probably corroborated his story with the people initially like, Hey, yep. We were able to corroborate your story that you were at dinner, but then that dinner ended at this time. And yet your GPS ping kept

hitting in that area for an additional hour. And it just so happens it was right in the area where Robin was. And why is this important guys? A lot of the true crime people that watch us, you already know what we're hitting at here. It's motive, right? If he's going to be pissed off that night, if there's a reason for him to take it that extra step, then what he's done in the past, it's the fact that as Stephanie has said multiple times, he said he wanted to maybe work it out. He wanted to maybe go to counseling. And yet here's this woman out on another date when we're not even legally divorced yet. And I could see how that might've put him over the edge. That might've been the thing that finally he said where,

if I can't have her, nobody can. Yeah. And the fact of the matter is, though, his alibi was stupid because not only did he not bring Rachel food, but Sexton said Rachel wasn't even working that night at the mall. So maybe he didn't think they would follow up. Maybe he thought he could explain that away after. But I mean, as as we were talking with Sergeant Sexton, I was notching down the times that that he lied, that Wayne lied. And it was a lot. It was a lot of times. And I think I said it Sergeant Sexton, I was notching down the times that he lied, that Wayne lied. And it was a lot. It was a lot of times. And I think I said it to Sexton at one point, this is a lot of times he's being dishonest. To me right there, this is something that shows you are not innocent because an innocent person has no reason to lie about these things. Yet you did

lie. Maybe he thought, oh, it's going to gonna look creepy maybe if he's innocent you know okay give him the benefit of the doubt he's like oh i go and stalk my wife this night that she ends up missing and dead so it's gonna look creepy as hell if i say i was there stalking her so let me give another excuse for why i was there but then it just makes you look worse because now you lied about why you were there on the on the night she ends up dead, right? Right, right. And what did Dave say? What did he say?

He said he always wants to lock you in their story. Yeah. So he probably hit him with that question out of nowhere. It was like, hey, what were you doing that night? Oh, it was at dinner. Yeah, but we have you still in there. No preparation for it where it's like, yeah, but we had you there another hour. What happened there?

And Wayne's got to come up with something fast. So he goes with the rachel thing and then within seconds of getting off that phone call dave or one of his colleagues are calling rachel and discrediting that that that that that alibi they they probably literally hung up the phone with wayne and call rachel before wayne even had a chance and they probably said hey uh your dad brought you food that night and she goes no he didn't bring me food okay food. It wasn't even working that night, guys. Thanks. Thanks. And then now Wayne's like, oh, man, I just got to own that one.

But he didn't really own it. He kind of just like he had no other reason. He never course corrected and was like, oh, yeah, actually, that's not why I was there. This is why I was there. He's got to own that mistake. He's got to like what I'm saying. He's like, at that point, you dug the hole. Now you're going to lay in it.

It's a loss. And, you know, we had we had talked a little bit earlier before we were recording and I said, I just think that he was trying to find her, you know? And if it's like a mall that I'm familiar with, there's the mall, there's the shopping malls. And then there's like five or six restaurants, you know, and these restaurants will have their own separate entrances and exits aside from the mall, but you can also enter them from the mall. That's the kind of thing. So maybe he didn't know exactly which restaurant she was at, but he was driving around. Maybe he saw a car in the parking lot, but he didn't know where she was. So he couldn't really verify who she was with or what she was doing. So he's like, I'm just going to wait here and see if she leaves.

And you can see in their cell phone records too, that she texts back to him at some point. She's like, I'm on a job interview. What's up? And then later she's like, oh, did you call me? Like, I truly believe at this point, he was just like waiting there trying to get some response from her to see where exactly she was and who she was with. And as he's sitting there, what's going to happen? He's going to be getting more and more pissed off. He's going to be getting more and more like, I can't believe this woman has me acting to this fool. I'm sitting out here in the small parking lot like some crazy person looking for her. I don't know where she is. I'm wasting my time. I can't believe she's driven me to this because it's not going to be his fault that he's acting creepy. It's her fault for evoking this response in him. And he's just

going to get more and more pissed off. And then, like you said to me earlier, they had this conversation. What was it? Almost 13 minute conversation. 13 minutes. Yeah. As she's driving to his house the night, we don't know what transpired during that conversation. But I can only imagine or theorize that he said something in that conversation that made her feel like she needed to get there quick. And maybe that was his plan. Like, how can I stress this woman out, make her feel like something that's precious to her is in danger. So she has to get here quick because I truly think that if Wayne Pope is guilty of doing something to his wife, Robin, it was premeditated. I don't think that it was. And I don't think that he was like, oh, I'm going to kill her tonight. But I think as time passed, probably leading up to that past week or whatever, he was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm so annoyed.

I tried to chase her other boyfriend away. He left. He's not messing with her anymore. But she's still not back with me. So now what can I do? Now what can I do? Obviously, it doesn't matter how many guys I chase away. She just doesn't want to be with me.

So like you said, if I can't have her, nobody can. And that was the plan. She could have confirmed that for all we know, they could have had a conversation about the dinner that night and she could have confirmed to him like, yeah, I was out on a date. Wayne, we're not together anymore. And we never will be. And that might have been where he was like, okay. All right. Final answer. Final answer. Final answer. All right. Okay. Good to know. Well, I mean, you started just going there. other anymore and we never will be yeah and that might have been where he was like okay all right

final answer final answer final answer all right okay good to know well i mean you started just going there do we want to dive right into theories right now ladies first i think so well let's just do it i think i think my theory's been pretty clear from the start i do believe that whatever happened to her if wayne was responsible he lured her there using her dog bella i even had talked to you about some theories previously because she gets to his house, he's not answering the door. And Sergeant Sexton said he's done things like that before to her in the past because I didn't know that either. This wasn't the first time that he had asked her to come over. She had said that she was going to come over and

then he just didn't answer the door. This is his way of exerting control over her, treating her like a pawn. He no longer has control of her as a husband or a romantic partner. But how can I still affect her? How can I still control her with my words, with my behavior? So he would just have find him and he wasn't answering the door. And maybe he was in the back already because their house butted up right against the water, right? So maybe he's got Bella out back and the dog's barking. So she goes around back to see, like, oh, I hear my dog back there barking. And he's like holding Bella over the water. And she's like, no. And she runs towards him. And that's when he strikes, throws Bella in, knocks her on the head, pushes her in, walks away. It all goes down within 30 seconds. And that's when he strikes, throws Bella in, knocks her on the head, pushes her in, walks away. It all goes down within 30 seconds and that's it because there's no sign of struggle inside. They had a team in there. I just feel like this was so well planned

and so fast because nobody heard anything. Nobody saw anything. But within, I feel like it would have to be 35, 40 seconds, both Bella and Robin were in that water and he was gone and walking away like nothing happened. Yeah, I think I completely agree with you. I agree with your theory. So I'll just add to it because I think a good investigator always tries to disprove their own theory. And you can't with this one because we talk about the idea that Wayne did leave while she was still alive. And, you know, would she have gone for a walk with Bella? It's too cold.

She wasn't wearing the proper clothing. If she went inside to get Bella, you would assume she probably would have gone through a mail at that point, picked it up, moved it a little bit, done some things before, you know, maybe packed a bag of stuff. Because she had her clothes there still. She had time to, no sense of urgency. Grab a coat because you're going outside with bella um you know if bella does fall in accidentally you know the dog's not going to sink immediately you would have time to take off your heels and even if you jump in with your heels on and realize i'm not going to be able to get to her you would be able to swim back to shore and

here's the thing it's suggestive based on the autopsy that on the report from the dog, the dog did make it back to shore. She just couldn't get on the rock. So if the dog was able to make it back, more than likely if Robin was alive and well, she would have swam back and got right next to her. She didn't. And then you think about the conversations. If Wayne's plan was to, and I think about my own personal life with people I know who've gotten divorced and have these tumultuous relationships or are in the process of getting divorced. If it's been established that I'm not going to be there when you arrive, if I know you're

15 minutes away and I'm, I'm planning from the start not to be there while you're there per my lawyer's recommendation, I'm probably going to get in the car 15 minutes before you get there and start heading to my grant, my parents' house-Eleven because I don't want to leave when you leave. That defeats the purpose of seeing you and not allowing for an allegation to be made against me, right? You'd want to be gone before your wife or husband get there. That was not the case. He got off the phone with her and got more comfortable and quote unquote fell asleep. So that doesn't really jive with what a commonsensical person would do. That's another red flag. Then we talk about the lies that, you know, he's been caught in as far as his alibi. It just doesn't add up. The thing that makes the most sense to explain why he would suddenly decide

to leave his home at such a late hour of the night, go get a coffee, go pick up a truck after she arrived. Again, in air quotes, it just doesn't make sense. And to Dave Sexton's point, to think that he fell asleep within 15 minutes of getting off the phone with her is, again, just from a commonsensical place, doesn't make a lot of sense. You're going to be fired up. You're going to be fired up. You're going

to be upset. You just heard about, you know, you just found out your wife was down and you're not going to be able to fall asleep even if you want to. So I think for most people, it just doesn't add up. And I agree with everything you said as far as how she was killed, how it all went down. I gave some, I did hint in the show that maybe there was a struggle inside and he had an opportunity to clean up. The only reason I say something might've went on inside is because you said it, I don't know if it was in the recording or after, but you made a point that the house next to them, the neighbor isn't too far away.

So just from my own experience, experience living near neighbors, you know, the house is not too far away when they argue, if they're outside arguing, whether I want to hear it or not, I can. And I would think that if Wayne was out there with Bella, Robin probably would have screamed, please, you know, Wayne, don't do it. You know, what are you doing? Like something that maybe someone would have heard. Now there's a possibility that did happen and no one heard it, but it just to me, the fact that he didn't even give her that

chance right because maybe he's not answering the door which we know right when he said he was asleep and then all of a sudden she hears bella or he's calling like robin and she walks over and she sees him crouched on the dock and she's like what and he's like bella's hurt come quick she runs over goes to look down at bella boom right on the the head, pushes her in, throws Bella in, done. That's it. Because he's got to use Bella as the reason for why Robin may have gone in the water to begin with. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense why she would even go in the water. Now he can say, maybe she went in after the dog.

That's what he said in his interrogation, right? She loved that dog. Everybody will tell you that dog was her baby. If you don't have Bella there, there's absolutely zero reason why Robin would be even near the water. So he needed to use that dog for more than one reason. And there even could have been a situation where before Robin even came outside or went around back, he already threw Bella in the water and said, hey, you might want to go

out back. Your dog's in the water. Like that scratch on his rib, he might have threw in there and been, hey, better go get your dog because she's swimming away right now. And then, you know, as she's like you said, as she's going out there, he's behind her or whatever. As soon as she gets close enough, he renders her in a able to, you know, swim back because of whatever happens, whatever it was, it was somewhat quiet or not loud enough for someone to hear. But I, I think we can both agree on this. We've talked about it. She writes,

can I get my mail? Can I get my mail? Wayne never responds to her in text. I think you're under the same belief that the reason he doesn't respond via text is because at some point immediately after that, they do come in contact, physical contact. And very shortly after that, whatever went down was quick and it didn't happen over a long period of time because of the time window we have. We know it, whatever happened. Um, so I do agree. I think we both are on the same page that, and Dave Sexton said this himself, Wayne knows what happened that night, you know, whether it was, and he gave this qualifying answer that, you know, did she fall in the water accidentally and Wayne just didn't do anything to help her yeah that's possible it's possible

it doesn't matter that's still criminally responsible for someone's death though so you're still a murderer as far as i'm concerned we don't know why it happened but this is why we covered it on breaking homicide this is why we covered it here on crime weekly and um it's a sad story all the way around for sure just to clarify like we both believe that Robin was dead in the water before Wayne Pope ever left to go swap his trucks and get his coffee. Yes. Yes. He, in my opinion. That hour where he said he was sleeping is when it happened.

If it was going to happen. Yes. And, you know, that's that we believe, again, this may be he may be innocent, but we believe that the reason for him leaving when he did was because whatever happened had already happened. And he realized, if I don't leave, there's no window where that unknown person, quote unquote, unknown person could have done this or it could have been an accident. Because even if it was an accident, I would have been here and been able to render aid. Yes.

And I mean- So he's got to leave. You all know, like if you have dogs and this is the one thing I couldn't get around with his whole, I was sleeping for an hour thing. They had Bella there and Robin's not going to just like text him and be like, can I get my mail? She's going to walk up to the door. She's going to knock on the door. She's going to ring the doorbell. Bella would be barking like crazy. That's what dogs do when they hear somebody outside. It's what they're, I mean, somebody could walk by three miles from my house and my dogs start barking. There's no way that this guy is sleeping in the living room on the couch because he wasn't in his bedroom. He said he fell asleep on the

couch in the living room. There's no way he fell asleep on the couch in the living room. Robin's knocking on the door trying to find out where the hell he is. Bella's barking and he's sleeping through that. Sleeping through Robin trying to get in, sleeping through his phone ringing or his phone getting texts from her, sleeping through Bella barking because somebody's outside knocking on the door. There's no way. So the whole I fell asleep for an hour thing, that's a lie. And I don't even believe the aspect that Robin fell asleep. I don't think she would fall asleep just randomly. So that he needs to say that, though, because if she was awake, she would have kept texting him, right? Or she would have reached

out in some way. Right. She would have kept texting him like, why aren't you answering? Why aren't you answering? No. What happened was she wrote, can I get my mail? And then he answered. They came in contact with each other, but he had to put that in there that, oh, she spontaneously developed a case of narcolepsy as well at the exact same time as me. And that's why it took a little while before I left the house. No, it took you a little while to leave the house because you had to make sure you had your ducks in a row before leaving. You had to kind of think about what you were going to do and how you were going to do it

before carrying it out. Really interesting case. Allegedly. Yes, of course. Again, we have to say it for legal reasons, guys. I know you get sick of hearing it, but we also would like the show to continue. So we got to we got to. And it is the truth.

He is innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. He may never be charged with anything based on what we know now. But, you know, at the end of the day, I think, you know, Davis said it. We have said it. There's more evidence that suggests something nefarious than this being an accident. That's all we're saying here. I definitely feel like the whole alibi was a lie though. So right from the get go, it's a bad, it's kind of a bad situation for Wayne in the eyes

of everyone who is a brain, right? So taken to everything, right? You talked about the polygraph and how you wouldn't take it, but taking the lies in the alibi, the unwillingness to take the polygraph inconsistencies with what he did that night, as far as coming back from seven 11 and going to the friend's house within like 10 minutes of like, and already knowing she's missing. Following her to Annapolis that night. Right.

Being in Annapolis, having this, this injury on his ribs that he again lied about was not true how he sustained it. And by the way, about the injury, I'm reading all the comments. Stephanie's reading the comments. I see a lot of you people who have experience with great danes and other animals that are large of size some people actually work in the field you've all said that injury is very consistent with a dog that's being picked up that doesn't like to be picked up and kicking away with its hind legs because it's like what are you doing i'm 100 pounds you never pick me up like this this is uncomfortable you don't even like me what are you doing? I'm a hundred pounds. You never pick me up like this. This is uncomfortable. You don't even like me.

Why are you touching me, man? Right. Could have scared, could have scared her or whatever. So you guys have all leaned towards that and I'm leaning towards it at well. And that would support the theory that he doesn't have any defensive wounds because whatever happened was there was an element of surprise. It happened quick and she didn't have a chance to defend herself because she didn't see it coming.

And I mean, to be fair, how could she see it coming? As far as we know, Wayne was verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, but he none of her friends, none of her family have ever said he's physically abusive, nor are there any reports of domestic violence or domestic issues that the police have had to go to. So as Robin, yeah, you know this guy, he's not the nicest guy, but no one thinks that the person you've been married to for 20 plus years is going to kill you out of the blue. No one goes into that thinking. So she's going into it thinking, he's a dick. I'm scared to leave my dog with him because I know he would do something to hurt me. But nobody's thinking, oh, you know, he's going to kill me tonight because you've slept next to this man for 20 years. That's you shouldn't have to think that. So, yeah, there's always going to be an element

of surprise there for her, because as much of a dick as she knew he was, she never thought, I think, that he would go that far. I don't think anybody did. Well, it's amazing what people will do when they finally snap. You just never know. That's why you always got to be cautious. Not the best idea to go out there. And again, we always try to put a spin or learning something you can take from this. And if you're going through a situation like this with a loved one, regardless of how long you've known them, and Robin did nothing wrong in the situation. She was actually going out there to get a post hole digger, her mail, see Bella.

She had very good reasons for going out there. But, you know, if you're going through a situation with a loved one, it's better. It's a better choice to bring someone not only for the sake of like making sure nothing happens, but also just having someone there as a support system, you know, because it could get hostile. And if he does have or she does have any bad intentions, having another person there, even if they're waiting in the car, is not going to allow them to carry that out without being caught because you have an unbiased witness there who's going to say, no, that's not

what happened. So if you can, and maybe in this case, she obviously couldn't, try to have someone with you or choose to go at a different time. And I'll tell you this, a lot of people don't know this. Don't be afraid to annoy the police. We do it all the time. Even if you can't get a friend or family member to come with you, call the local police department and say, hey, I need an officer present to keep the peace. It's their responsibility to show up and be present, whether it's the exchange of children or the gathering of clothes. They might tell you, hey, you can go on this particular day at this time, but they will absolutely go. And if they don't, definitely report it to their superiors because it's their responsibility. We do it all the time. So regardless of who you have around you, you can always have someone

present in those situations. And I strongly recommend that you do. Yeah. And the other person, I'll try to make you feel guilty about it. know they'd be like oh you feel you to call the cop who gives a shit don't worry about that person okay who cares your safety comes first and foremost and even if it's just your safety like your peace of mind where you're not stressed out you know don't go to the don't go to these people's houses late at night don't go unaccompanied i mean i would just try honestly if it was a wayne robin situation i would try to like avoid contact at all costs. The thing that Robin unfortunately had working against her was that Wayne had her dog. At the end of the day, she didn't give a shit about that male.

She didn't care about that pole digger. She cared about Bella. And Wayne knew it. And he knew he could get her to do whatever the hell he wanted using Bella as a pawn. And I think that's exactly what happened, unfortunately, because this is a woman who cared about her dog. And that means she's a good person because if you care about animals to that extent, you're a good person.

And it's sad that that's what that's what kind of led her into the spider's web. Yep. Sucks for the whole family. Sucks for friends and family. Obviously, our thoughts are with Priscilla, Rachel, the rest of the family. We're thinking of you guys. We're hoping it gets solved. We know, and Dave said this, it's going to be a tough one, but nothing's impossible. And we'll throw it down here right below again. We said it in the interview. This

is Dave Sexton's email account. Please don't abuse it. Please don't abuse it. But if you have information that might assist in solving this case, Dave wants to hear from you. So there's the email for that as well. And also just make sure that, again, we're not taking any of this justice into our own hands. I've seen some passionate response on comments. It's okay to voice your opinion, but leave it at that. Using your words, nothing else. I just got to put that out there.

They will, Derek. Because it's important. They will, Daddy Derek. You never know. It always takes one person. but again we appreciate it and also thank you to uh sergeant david sexson for doing this stephanie you're big on like transparency and and being open so he's open to it he does the egos checked at the door he's willing to for anybody regardless of who you are if you can assist in this case he he wants to hear from you. So kudos to him. Anything else? Any house cleaning things we got to clean up?

Oh, let's talk about the Day Wanderers March because we are running on our last leg for that now. Yes. So I'm wearing the shirt tonight for a good reason. As you guys are seeing this, the audio should come out on Friday. Knock on wood, the mugs and stickers that have been sold out for a little over a week are back in stock. However, this is going to be our last run on the mugs and stickers because they're made to order. So as of right now, there's about a hundred mugs and stickers left. So if you want a day one or his mug, I would strongly suggest you do it. Now you can go over to crimeweeklypodcast.com slash shop. Again, that's going to be right here. Here's the mug. And again, we've already sold

hundreds of these things and we appreciate your support. They went a lot quicker than we thought they would. And the reason we're switching it up is because we're going to try a different company for a different line. It's going to be the undercover pineapple line. And Stephanie's super excited about that. So we're going to stop with the mugs. We'll have the t-shirts for a different line. It's going to be the undercover pineapple line. And Stephanie's super excited about that. So we're going to stop with the mugs. We'll have the t-shirts for a little longer. And then I've heard you guys, I hear where you're coming from. We're going to switch these over to black too. I know Stephanie's happy about that. Yeah, so happy. I'm not good with white. So we're going to have all, when we do our undercover pineapple merch, my headphones were off for like a minute because I was struggling to get my sweatshirt off.

You should have saw her struggling to get the sweatshirt off as I was talking. It was funny. I am dying over here. It's like our AC is broken. It's a literal heat wave. Like I have been so hot. But yes, we're going to have all different colors for the undercover pineapple merch. So I'm super excited because I'm going to pick out all the colors and everything.

And we're pumped. We're pumped to bring it to you and we're pumped to wear it. So thank you guys so much for being here. Absolutely. Appreciate all the support. You guys have been amazing. The channel is growing faster than we could ever have imagined. We appreciate all positive comments, the reviews. And if you haven't already, if you're watching this on YouTube, please like, comment, subscribe. It really does. From what Stephanie's telling me, it helps the algorithm. It gets more eyes on our episodes and that's ultimately what we want. We want to spread these cases as far as we can because there's a lot of people out there who don't know the Robin Pope cases of the world. So that's the point of this. We're hoping we can help and

we're hoping we get some good news down the road. Thank you guys so much. And we will talk to you next week. Bye. Take care.