Crime Weekly - S1 Ep37: Mystery on Highway 18: Asha Degree (Part 1)

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

“She’s my baby, we just want her back”, a statement that seems so simple to most of us, but to the mother of nine year old Asha Degree, it was a simple plea made from a desperate heart. When you wake up and find that your small daughter has vanished into thin air, there isn’t much you can say, because there isn’t much that you know. In the United States, more than 99 percent of children reported usually make it home safe, so it wasn’t illogical to have hope that Asha would have been one of those children, but as the years passed, and no new evidence came to light, it became clear that Asha Degree was in that much smaller percentage of missing children, the ones that never do come home. Today on Crime Weekly, we are revisiting this case, and hoping that someone out there knows something that can bring peace to the family of Asha Degree, who to this day still searches for their daughter, and have not given up hope that she might still be alive. Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

She's my baby. We just want her back. This is a statement that seems so simple to most of us, but to the mother of 9-year-old Asha Degree, it was a simple plea made from a desperate heart. When you wake up and find that your small daughter has vanished into thin air, there isn't much you can say because there isn't much that you know. In the United States, more than 99% of children reported missing usually make it home safe. So it wasn't illogical to have hope that Asha would have been or could have been one of those children. But as the years passed and no new evidence came to light,

it became clear that Asha Degree was in that much smaller percentage of missing children, the ones that never do come home. Today on Crime Weekly, we're revisiting this case and hoping that someone out there knows something that can bring peace to the family of Asha Degree, who to this day are still searching for their daughter and have not given up hope that she might still be alive. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're talking about the case of Asha Degree. This has been covered by podcasts and YouTubers before, but it is a very important case to me. Any case where there's a child missing

is important to me because, you know, there's such a small chance they could still be alive out there somewhere. But either way, as a parent myself, as a mother, the not knowing, and we've talked about this in past episodes, the not knowing where your child is, what happened to them. It's a daily torture. And that was our question, I believe, last week for Lauren Spear, wasn't it? Would you rather know or not know? And I think the majority of people, I think I saw one comment where somebody was like, yeah, I'd rather not know. But 99.9% of people said the not knowing is the torture. The not knowing is the worst. So I really want to hopefully get her case out there. It's been over 20 years at this point, but there's still a chance, not only that she might still be alive, but that there is somebody out there that knows something and hopefully will come forward with that information. Yeah. That's the goal of what we do, right? That's our purpose. It's not just to tell these stories. We tell some cases that are solved so we can take things from it and apply it to our own lives, meaning us and our listeners and our viewers. And then with these unsolved cases, it's using our platform to do good. We're going to cover thousands of cases over the years.

If we're able to solve one, whether it's a murder or a missing child, it's success because that's one case that wouldn't have been solved without us doing what we do. So without you guys doing what you do. So in order to do it, even though this isn't the funnest thing to talk about, it sucks actually as parents, like you said, it's a necessary evil. And we hope that with just one of these cases, we get an outcome that's unexpected, but definitely wanted. Yeah. And this case is crazy too, because I'm not going to ever say like, oh, you know, certain kids were doing things that got them kidnapped. But there are obviously like risk factors, you know, that make a child more likely to be kidnapped.

And Asha was in none of those risk factors. Like her family was very protective. They did everything right. You know, maybe not right for you or right for me, but they did what they felt was right for them. They protected their children at all costs. So for her to go missing or have been abducted, it just doesn't really make a lot of sense. So it's a very big mystery.

And I'm hoping that somebody comes forward or something breaks and it becomes less of a mystery. Okay, so Asha Degree was a shy and quiet nine-year-old who lived at 3404 Oak Crest Street in Shelby, North Carolina. And Shelby is a suburb that's located between the bigger cities of Charlotte and Asheville. And those who live there in Shelby, they describe it as a quiet, community-oriented, and family-friendly place to live. Asha lived in a two-bedroom duplex with her father, Harold, who built pianos at Kauai American Manufacturing in nearby Lincolntown, and her 10-year-old brother O'Brien, who attended the same middle school as his sister. When Asha went missing in February of 2000, she was a fourth grader at Falston Elementary School,

and no one could figure out how or why a seemingly normal and happy child could just vanish into thin air. As far as risk factors go for abduction, like we said earlier, Asha was on the very low end of the risk factors. Some might say that Asha and her brother O'Brien were a bit overprotected. I wouldn't personally say that because I personally believe that you cannot protect your children enough, especially when they're little and vulnerable like this. But I've seen that comment or comments like that made in this case from time to time that the family was overprotective. The Degree family, they were very close. They attended Mass every Sunday as a family at the Macedonia Missionary Baptist Church in Waco, North Carolina, and Asha never missed her weekly Bible study at the church. Harold and Aquila, her parents, they were very

serious about education, so both Asha and her brother O'Brien had almost impeccable attendance records and perfect grades. Every day after school, they would come home and do their homework, knowing that they wouldn't be able to go outside and play until that was finished. The family did not have a computer, so the children didn't have access to the internet because their parents didn't want them talking to strangers online. And neither Asha nor O'Brien had a cell phone, so they would need to use the house phone if they wanted to communicate with friends. What Asha and O'Brien watched on television was even monitored by their parents, and neither child was allowed to ride their bike if they wanted to communicate with friends. What Asha and O'Brien watched on television was even monitored by their parents,

and neither child was allowed to ride their bike outside of their neighborhood alone. Now, a lot of Asha's father's family lived in the same neighborhood. Asha's grandmother and aunt lived right across the street, but Asha was still cautious when opening the front door of her house. Harold's sister, Patricia Banks, said, quote,

She doesn't even open the door for me without getting her mother's permission and I'm her aunt. End quote. So like I said earlier, Harold and Aquila, they did everything right to protect their children from potentially negative external influences. But they still ended up losing their daughter. And that's really a truly terrifying thought as a parent, I think, that you can do everything right and still have something bad happen. And Ash's mother, Aquila, said, quote, I never let them out of my eyesight, and that's why it's so hard. I always knew where my children were, except for now, end quote. Yeah, this story really drives home

what we've been saying all along, which is there are cases that you guys have probably heard or listened to and said, well, I would never do that, or I wouldn't allow my child to do that. And maybe you're right. But it's good to throw these in there as well, because as Stephanie just said, you can do everything right and still have it happen to you. And it's scary to think of, but we want you to be scared because there's a reality out there that there are people living by you right now who potentially want to cause harm to you or someone you care about. I'm not trying to scare you. That's just the reality of the situation. So if this story

scares you as a parent or as a sibling or as a someone who watches a child for a loved one it should because we want you to be more cognizant of your surroundings because even though you think you're doing everything right if someone has an ulterior motive they may try to capitalize on that one second where you let your guard down so we want to tell you don't try to avoid that as much as possible so that you don't end up like this family, because this appears to be a very good family who just became very unlucky in the situation. Yes, very unlucky.

And like I said, I don't even feel like they ever let their guard down. Really, it was just it was just really unlucky. It's just the best way I can put it it because this is devastating and it's terrifying is terrifying As somebody who is overprotective too. It's it I don't like it So it makes me think of john walsh It always brings me back to adam walsh because you know everyone we're going to cover that story at some point for sure even though it's you know, it's solved essentially now, but it's important because it's another case where This family did the right thing and it only took one second and it changed their lives forever.

So this isn't an isolated incident. It happens to good families all the time. And yeah, in most cases, it turns out 99% of the time where the child's returned or located, who wants to be in that 1%? Not me. So that's why we do this. And I think that the reason they are found and brought home so often is because it's usually some sort of family abduction or some sort of custody issue or something like that. But typically when a child is taken by a stranger, I think, what is it, four hours? Within four hours, they're usually killed. The statistics are bad.

If your child is not found and it does turn out that they were taken by someone, they're usually killed. The statistics are bad. If your child is not found and it does turn out that they were taken by someone, you're right. With each passing minute, it becomes less and less likely that that child will be found alive. It's a frightening thing. That's why they have the Amber Alert. That's why when something like that comes in, there's no delay. It immediately goes out to the surrounding area because minutes are as valuable as gold. You know what I mean? It's something where they have to get that information out to as many people as possible. That's why you get your alerts on the phone. And usually when we get those alerts, within a few minutes, they get canceled. The Amber alerts get canceled. Oh, we found them. But they're basically

erring on the side of caution where they're like, hey, listen, we'd rather put it out there, inconvenience you for two minutes to be on the lookout for whatever vehicle or description we put out rather than withhold that information and have this person get outside the area that we think that they might still be in. You know what pisses me off? No, what? People who complain about getting Amber Alerts. People complain about getting Amber Alerts? Oh my God. Oh my God.

Really? Yes. I think you can turn it off, but I'm not going to, even if I know how to do it, I'm not going to tell you. You should not. Do you know, can you turn it off? Do you know how to do it?

I believe you can, but I'm not going to say it. That's disgusting. If you turn Amber Alerts off on your phone, I'm just going to say it. I could be wrong. I'm just going to say it. If you turn off Amber Alerts

or you complain about getting them, you're a shitty person, period. I'm not going to even say allegedly. I'm not going to say, don't come for me because that shouldn't be controversial. Yep. You can definitely turn it off. There's a whole.

Oh, my God. Now they're going to look it up, man. No, nobody in our audience is a terrible, shitty person like that. If you are unsubscribed, go somewhere. We don't want you here. Don't turn off Amber Alerts and don't complain about them. OK, because when it's your kid or your niece or whatever, you're going to wish, you know, to the high heavens that there's a million Amber Alerts going out every five seconds.

Like there should be more Amber Alerts, honestly. But all right, moving on. So Asha, what a sweetheart she was or is, you know, we don't know. We don't know. But it's hard. We do refer to her in the past tense because she's forever nine in our minds, basically. She was described as the kind of person who makes friends with the kids that no one else wanted to play with. Her brother, O'Brien and

Asha, they were like super, super close. They were only a year apart. They went to the same school. They walked to the school bus every day together. They were very a year apart. They went to the same school. They walked to the school bus every day together. They were very close. And you could tell that he admired her, like the way he talked about her. As a 10-year-old boy, he admired her and he respected her and he really, really loved her. And O'Brien said, you know, she just couldn't stand to see anyone feel bad ever. So if there was a kid getting left out at school or getting bullied, she would immediately make friends with that person. And her mother said Asha was a soft-hearted child who cried at all the sad parts in movies.

And she loved watching movies, but sometimes they wouldn't make her cry. They would give her bad dreams. So after watching Mars Attacks, Asha woke up in the middle of the night, terrified that aliens were going to invade the Earth. her bad dreams. So after watching Mars attacks, Asha woke up in the middle of the night terrified that aliens were going to invade the Earth. And she had a nightmare after she saw Michael Jackson's Thriller video. Her brother O'Brien, who shared a room with Asha, said that she had a big problem with the graveyard scene. I remember being a kid when that music video came out. It terrified me too. Like now I think it's cool, but those zombies dancing and then like coming out of the graves.

Yeah, it was hard as a small child to see that. But Asha was scared of a couple of things. She was scared of thunderstorms. She was scared of dogs. And I think that's mainly because she didn't like the dogs to jump up on her. But even though she was timid, Asha excelled at everything she tried. She handled math and science with ease. She loved to read.

Her older brother had helped teach her to read using Clifford, the big red dog books. And because she had taken to reading so quickly, Asha also became a talented writer, especially in creative writing. And when she grew up, she wanted to write and illustrate books. Asha also loved to sing, and she would belt out gospel songs when she was in the car with her family. But when she was in front of people, she was so shy, she refused to try out for a solo in her church choir because singing in front of a lot of people that weren't her family, it terrified her. That's why her family was surprised when Asha

said she wanted to play basketball in her fourth grade year. Her parents had thought that she would be afraid to play in front of all of these watching crowds. But when Asha started playing point guard for the Falston Bulldogs, she excelled at that as well, averaging four to six points a game and making many new friends. Asha was a favorite at falston middle school her basketball coach his name is chad wilson isn't that funny as a basketball coach i don't know why wilson isn't that like a ball wilson is a brand of a of a basketball yeah among other things right among other things but like sports equipment right yeah it's sports equipment like a fake name i was like ch Chad Wilson, is that really your name?

Basketball coach Wilson? He actually is a co-owner of Wilson. Stop, you just made that up. Totally messing with you, yeah. So Chad Wilson, he's her basketball coach. He loved her positive attitude, and she was regularly awarded student of the week. She was also given the opportunity to pick from her classroom's treasure chest. This is an honor that was reserved for students who went above and beyond. So,

the week before she went missing, Asha picked a black Tweety Bird purse from the treasure chest, and she was very happy with her selection, which is maybe why she brought it with her when she left her house in the early morning hours of February 14th, 2000, a day that also happened to be her parents' 12th wedding anniversary. So let's take a quick break before we dive into the details. The days leading up to Asha's disappearance seemed fairly normal. So on Thursday, February 10th, Asha and O'Brien, they walked to the bus stop together as they did every day. Once at Falston Middle School, Asha and O'Brien walked to Asha's fourth grade classroom hand in hand as they did every day. It's so cute. Like they would hold hands and he would walk her to her class every day.

He would drop her off at her fourth grade classroom and then he'd go on to his fifth grade classroom. And then once school was done for the day, Asha and O'Brien went home. They both had keys to the house, so they would go inside and start their homework while they waited for their parents to get home from work. Now, Aquila typically worked a 9 to 5 shift, but Harold's hours were different that Thursday and the following Friday. Harold normally worked the second shift, which would have been between 5 p.m. and 1 a.m., but these two days he was scheduled for the first shift. So this is basically the same shift as his wife, the nine to five, a regular day shift. So the next day, Friday, February 11th, school was out for the day. So the kids stayed with their aunt Keisha while their parents were at work during the day. That evening, they both attended basketball practice in the school gym and Asha's coach, Chad Wilson, said that practice was normal and she behaved as she always did, saying, quote,

Asha was her usual fun-filled self. She had a good practice, end quote. After practice, they went home and the next day, which was Saturday, February 12th, both Asha and O'Brien were playing in basketball games at Burns Middle School. So Burns Middle School is in Lawndale, North Carolina. It's right next to Shelby. It's just like a two-minute drive from Shelby. That night at the basketball games, the girls' team played first, and there was a lot on the line for the team because they'd gone undefeated that season. But three minutes before the end of the game, Asha fouled out, and her team lost. Asha reportedly took this loss very hard, and she was seen crying on

the sidelines, and according to her mother, Aquila, Asha felt that the referees were cheating and hadn't been fair to her. The coach, Chad Wilson, said, quote, I don't think the referee was trying to single out Asha. Sometimes kids don't understand all the rules of the game. Bad calls are just a part of the game, end quote. So does she not understand the rules of the game or was it a bad call? That's my question. Did she think that the ref was not making a fair call, but he was making a fair call? Or did he make a bad call, but she just was supposed to accept that because it's part of the game? I couldn't understand that. I think it was probably a combination and and it sounds like from his quote maybe he was throwing a little bit of a dig at the ref being like hey you know

what bad calls are part of the game and clearly you made a bad call so she wasn't wrong and complaining about your bad call or or identifying a bad call but she but you have to understand that it doesn't help to complain about them because it's not going to change the rules. The refs are in charge. This hits close to home too. It's one of those things where my daughter's eight, you know, because we do basketball practice on Mondays, I coach my daughter Tenley's team. So all this is, I'm having this conversation with you and it's interesting because I can see me having that conversation with Asha because I've had it with Tenley. So it's amazing how these cases, they always find a way where you're able to put yourself in these individual shoes and it becomes personal. It's just interesting how much the people can be so different, but you still find so many commonalities.

We are all so much more alike than we think. It's so true. It's so true. Yeah. Especially when you're talking about kids. Like, I think the ref should have like eased up a little bit. I mean, as a basketball coach, like for for small girls, do you find that the refs. Now you sound like my mom.

Right. No, what I'm saying, they're nine year old girls. Like, yeah, you shouldn't be making bad calls as a ref. Like, be fair. Yeah. No NBA. No, what I'm saying, they're nine-year-old girls. Like, you shouldn't be making bad calls as a ref. Like, be fair. Yeah, no. This is not NBA. I also think that, you know, I didn't know Asha personally, but, you know, I coached my daughter's softball team as well, and we made it really far into the playoffs, and

we lost. And I know that the girls were looking for a reason, you know, oh, that wasn't a fair call. They're young. They're little kids. So sometimes there is a little bit of embellishmentishment and that's your job as the coach or the parent to kind of explain to them that listen sometimes you win sometimes you lose and that that's part of the game as well yeah and honestly like if you look at asha right she seemed like a little bit of a perfectionist she seemed like somebody who was

young but was incredibly like adept at many different things. Like she probably didn't face failure a lot. So when it's your first time kind of losing, when you've just been so good at everything, it can hit hard and you can kind of look for external sources to blame for that because you are a kid. So she has kind of this like adult mature brain where she's just really good at things,

but at the same time, she's still a little kid. And I know little kids like that who seem like adults. They seem like really to have a handle on things. They're like super motivated. They're good at everything. But then you see that they can become like children again very quickly because at their heart and in their brains, that's what they are. Yeah. She was used to succeeding and that's why sports are great. It's part of learning about life, learning that sometimes regardless of how hard you try, you might come up a little bit short just please don't say everybody gets a trophy again okay oh i know i got crushed for that remember that in the beginning i had some comments i said the participation trophy thing or whatever and people they did not like that sorry

they hate they hated it although you just brought it up. So now here it is. Yeah, I'm throwing you under the bus. Here we go. Here's a shovel, Stephanie. There you go. I support you. Don't worry. Thank you. Well, Chad Wilson also said that Asha was not the only one who got upset about this loss, right? All the girls had been disappointed and several of them had shed a few tears.

But after a few minutes minutes Asha was back to her normal self she was smiling joking having a good time with her other teammates and then when O'Brien played his game Asha sat with her mother in the stands to watch and Chad Wilson Asha's coach said quote I sat behind her for part of the boys game and tossed a towel over her head and joked with her she didn't show any behavior or say anything that led me to believe she was unhappy End quote. After the game, Asha attended a sleepover with a dozen of her cousins, and this sleepover was hosted by her 15-year-old cousin, Katina. So a lot of Asha's family lived close by. She was very close. She

had lots of aunts and uncles and cousins. And everyone at this sleepover said Asha was fine. She was happy. She was dancing and laughing. But they did stay up very late. They watched Soul Train and they were like learning the dances and laughing at each other. And then later they watched Showtime at the Apollo. And if anybody remembers, Showtime at the Apollo came on really late. Like I want to say midnight maybe. It's been a long time since I've watched TV and it's been a long time since Showtime at the Apollo was on. I don't know if it even still is on, but it came on late.

And this is a sleepover with many girls, so they're staying up late. They're not getting a lot of sleep. So the next morning, Asha did go to church with her family at 11. And then they all went to lunch at her aunt's house afterwards. But when they got home, Asha was tired. So she laid down in her room at 630 in the evening and fell asleep. Two hours later, a storm was rolling in.

There was high winds, a lot of rain. There was lightning. And Asha, who was scared of storms, she woke up and she ventured into the living room where her mother and brother were watching television. When Aquila and O'Brien saw Asha that night, they said she was wearing a pair of jeans and a t-shirt that she'd gotten from her family reunion, which had taken place the previous summer in Atlanta. It was a white t-shirt with purple writing on it that said, Sun Degrees Hot in Atlanta. A half an hour later, a car outside slid into an electrical pole and

this knocked the power out at the Degree home as well as several other surrounding neighborhoods. Asha and O'Brien would usually take baths in the evening, but because of the power outage, their mother told them to just get into their pajamas and go to bed. They could have their bath the next morning before school. Asha changed into a white nightgown with red trim and a teddy bear printed on the front, and both she and O'Brien climbed into their separate beds in the same room. Now, it seems that this evening, Harold Degree was at work. He got out of work around 11 p.m., and he stopped at a store to buy some Valentine's Day candy before heading home. Power was restored to the home and the surrounding areas at 12.30, and this was right around the time that Harold arrived back to the house. And when he got home, Harold looked in on both of his

children as he usually did, and he found them sleeping soundly. He went to bed himself about two hours later, you know, around 2.30, because when you get home from work, if you work overnights and late nights, you can't go right to sleep. You've got to wind down a little bit. I used to work at a nightclub, so I know that I'd be getting home at four and not going to sleep until 7.30, but he goes to bed at like 2.30. And this was about the same time that O'Brien heard what he thought was Asha getting up to use the bathroom. And a few minutes later, he heard like the springs in her bed squeak. And O'Brien assumed that Asha had gotten back into bed and gone to sleep. So a few minutes later, O'Brien heard Asha's bed squeak again.

And he figured that she was just kind of like restless and moving in her sleep. But no one in the house heard anything else, and everyone slumbered on. The next morning was February 14th. Asha's mother, Aquila, woke up around 5.45 a.m., and she started drawing a bath for the kids. Now, Aquila would later go on to give an interview to Jet Magazine, so I'm going to read in her own words what she said happened that morning. She said, quote, I opened the bedroom door. My son O'Brien was under the covers, as he usually slept. I called his name and he jumped up, as usual. I realized that Asha was not in her bed. I looked

beside the bed because sometimes she would get up at night and lay there. I asked that Asha was not in her bed. I looked beside the bed because sometimes she would get up at night and lay there. I asked O'Brien where she was. He said he didn't know. I checked the couch. I checked downstairs. I checked the kitchen. I checked every closet in the house. I went in my room and put on clothes and told my husband Harold that Asha was not in the house. I checked our cars. She was not there. My husband said maybe she was in my mother-in-law's home. She lives across the road. We called my sister-in-law's house.

She was not there. That's when I went into panic mode. I heard a car next door. I didn't have shoes on. I put shoes on and ran outside. I called my mom and told her that Asha was not in the house. She told me to hang up and call the police. I threw the phone at Harold and went outside, end quote. So when she says that Harold said,

you know, maybe she's at my mom's house. And then she said, I called my sister-in-law. That's kind of confusing the way she words it. But the mother, Harold's mother and Harold's, I believe it's Harold's sister-in-law lived across the street with Harold's brother, as far as I can tell. There's a lot of relatives in here and they sort of pop in and they all seem to like live in the same area. But they called Harold's mother and they were like, is Asha there? Because she lives right across the street. Asha was not known to leave the house and just go there without telling anybody. But at this point, this is a last resort. And Aquila says she threw the phone at Harold and ran outside. She threw the phone at

Harold so that he could call 911 after her mother told her to have Harold call 911. Yeah. And just so we're clear on the timeframe here, Harold, Asha's father, checked in on O'Brien and Asha at 1230. So we know as of 1230, there's a visual representation of Asha. We know definitively at that point, she's in her bed. And again, someone might say, well, what if she had made it to look like she was in her bed? We're going off the assumption that he was able to see his daughter's head or body, something clear where he said, okay, there's daughter, their son probably gave him a kiss and a hug or whatever. But 1230 is the last time that someone has seen her.

Now, O'Brien- I think O'Brien saw her get up to go to the bathroom, but then he just heard her bed squeak and thought that she was getting back in bed. And then he heard her bed squeak again and thought she's just restless. So that's 2.30 a.m. So at 2.30 a.m. Now in here, it says O'Brien heard what he thought was Asha getting up to use the bathroom.

But you're saying, you're saying that- So I guess when he said what I thought was her getting up to use the bathroom, he says this afterwards because he's like, well, I thought she was getting up to use the bathroom. He says this afterwards because he's like, well, I thought she was getting up to use the bathroom, but maybe she was getting up to leave. Right. He didn't he didn't know if she actually had used the bathroom.

OK. And he heard. So you're saying he saw her, though? Yeah. OK. So so when I was listening to you, it said heard. But we're to assume now that O'Brien actually physically saw her get out of the bed, but he never saw her return. It

was just the noises he heard that he assumed were her again, for the reasons that she jumped into the bed, it squeaked when she got in and then she was moving around a little bit later. And that was just her kind of adjusting herself as she got into bed. That's interesting. And I don't want to draw too many conclusions from it because we have a sound that if he saw her get out of bed, so we know she's out, someone came back into the room and got onto her bed. And although he thought the second squeaking was her just adjusting herself, that probably that might represent the time when she got back out of the bed and at that point. So just something to keep in mind. And again, 1230 was the visual, but then you have two hours later, you have Harold going to sleep and O'Brien seeing or hearing Asha get out of the bed. So we're at about 230 AM before Iquilla gets up at 545. So that's important. We're looking at about a three hour and 15 minute window that's in question. So keep that in mind as we go forward. Yeah. It seems like the standard narrative is that she was there at 2.30,

but shortly after O'Brien heard her and saw her go to the bathroom is when she left or somebody came in and took her. But the general belief is that she left of her own free will. But why would she do that is the bigger question, right? That is the big question. And I think we don't want to assume anything. But if we're playing this out, if this was someone who came into the home unannounced, unexpected by Asha, and then again, you hear it wasn't like she went to the bathroom and he never saw or heard her again.

It does appear that she came back to the room and left and got up again voluntarily. So you could make the argument that this was someone else, but it's just, it's unlikely. It's unlikely that someone else would get into her bed and then get back out. And if she was abducted or grabbed by someone in the house, you would expect some type of sound, something that, you know, in the house would have heard her. Do we know the size of this house? Was it a big place? Was it smaller? This isn't like a JonBenet mansion. No, it's like a two-story duplex. So I believe they lived in half of it, right? They lived in half of it. And what we do know, and we end up finding out, is Asha took a book

bag with her that was packed with some things, clothes and stuff like that. So what he could have been hearing at that point when she came back in from the bathroom or wherever she went was her getting her things together or grabbing her bag that she had already pre-packed because it's dark. I don't see her packing this bag at 2.30 in the morning. So she puts her hand on the mattress to reach under her bed. And so he hears squeaking, thinking it's her just being restless or moving around in her sleep, but it's really her grabbing her bag. But he's half asleep at this point. So he doesn't remember or recall her leaving the room after that. but nobody in the house heard anything. And like you said, no, it's not a big, big place. And all the bedrooms are pretty close together. You know, it's a duplex, so I assume it's rented. And we all know that those walls and these rented places can be paper thin. Yeah. And you would expect to hear or see some sign of struggle if this was a kidnapping. And there was none. And he was in the room the entire time. They shared a room. Their beds are like, what, six feet apart? Not far. But we will use the squeaking of the springs to try to establish a timeline because we know she wasn't there by 545. So again, for you guys that are taking notes at home, you're looking at about

a three-hour window, which is not a big window at all. So keep that in mind. Keep your notes going so we can keep this timeline in perspective as we're trying to figure out what happened. Let's go to a break really quick and come back and tell you what happened after. All right. So Harold Degree called the police at 639 a.m. to report a missing child. The transcript shows that Harold told the dispatcher that Asha was gone and so was her book bag and her pocketbook or her purse. She took her Tweety Bird purse with her. He said he didn't know what else she had taken with her at that point or what she had been wearing when she left. The first police officer who was at the Degree home, he got there around 6.45 a.m., and then within 15 minutes, it was as if the entire town of Shelby had, like, congregated outside the home. Aquila Degree later told Jet Magazine, quote,

By that time, every neighbor in my street was up because I was walking up and down the road screaming my child's name. By 7 o'clock, we had every cop in the county here. Every news reporter had shown up. Five or six local news channels were here, local newspapers. By the time seven o'clock came, I was plastered all over the television, end quote. So do you think he calls in the missing child at 640, the first cop is there by 645, and by seven, pretty much like every cop in the county was there at the house. Is that a pretty good response time for a missing child? It's a really good response time. And I'm sure

that was based off all the things that you laid out in the beginning of this episode, which is Asha wasn't someone who was in trouble a lot. She wasn't a habitual offender as far as a child that was a runaway constantly. You can walk into a home and see very quickly how tight knit of a family and also how strict the parents are. I'm trying to phrase it properly, but basically, nope, she doesn't have a computer. She doesn't have a phone. She has a computer, but she doesn't have a phone. She has to get access to go on it.

And you realize very quickly that this girl isn't a candidate for a runaway. So it's all hands on deck at that point. Not saying it shouldn't be for every case, but if I'm being completely candid, there are situations where a police officer shows up and they realize that this is Derek Levasseur, someone who runs away every single week and does it the same way. So is there the same level of response from a human level? No, there isn't. But with a case like this, where it's like, oh, this fits all the criteria of a kidnapping at that point, let's get everybody here and try to kind of establish a grid.

So hopefully whoever took her, it's only been a small window. Maybe we can kind of box them in where whoever did this doesn't have a chance to escape. Yeah. And I think one of the cops later said, you know, nine years old, it's kind of even young to be a runaway. Like kids don't really start running away till 12. I think he said 12 years old is when they would they would typically start running away. Nine is still pretty young because nine year olds, he still gets scared by stuff. They don't want to go outside in the dark. Like I have a nine year old son. This kid's not going outside in the dark. I mean, he can't even fall asleep at night without me laying in bed next to him still. And he's going to be 10 this month. So they still have-

A fourth grade is young. Yeah. They still have these fears. She was scared of the storms. It was storming. It was raining when she left. She's scared of dogs. I mean, we know dogs are outside, yet she still ventured out there by herself anyways. So it didn't look like a runaway situation. Well, that's the other thing too that you established by kind of leading us into this a few days before, because one of the first questions you're going to ask as an officer is, was there anything that transpired over the last couple of days where you guys had an argument, something she didn't agree with, that she'd want to go somewhere and do something you wouldn't allow her to. And for the most part,

the only thing that we really have is this basketball game where she was a little upset. That wouldn't justify running away from home when the people that she was upset with don't even live there. So they're looking for a reason why she would leave the house voluntarily, and they didn't have that. So then you go to the worst case scenario, which is she was taken. And that's why I think you got the response you did. Yeah. And of course, they asked the parents that. You're right. You're absolutely right. They were like, hey, is there a fight happening? Is there something happening at home that would stress her out or make her want to get away? And they answered honestly, like, no, everything's been normal. These past couple of days have been completely normal. And she had a little like setback at the game. But as Coach

Wilson said, you know, she recovered from that like setback at the game. But as Coach Wilson said, you know, she recovered from that within a couple of minutes like kids do. They get upset about things and then they start playing with their friends and they're over it. They're not going to like bring it home with them. So she wasn't upset about anything.

This was completely out of the blue. Yeah, that's how it happens. I'm glad to see we have that response time because that's what you would expect in a situation like this. And the police brought in canines, police dogs, to see if they could pick up Asha's scent and to see if they could figure out which way she had gone. But they were unable to find her scent, which was strange because the canine handlers claimed that the dogs could pick up the scent of a live human for three to four days, like after they've been missing, depending on the weather. And moisture actually helps in this situation, whereas

in forensics, a lot of the time we've talked about how water and moisture does not help. But in this situation, it does because scents actually drawn to moisture. So it kind of holds onto it for a lot longer. And on the morning that Asha had gone missing and had been raining, because like I said, that's also odd. Asha was afraid of thunderstorms and she'd left without a jacket. So she's not dressed to go out in the rain. And by 8 a.m., volunteers from fire departments and rescue squads from around Cleveland County had arrived and began searching the area around Asha's home. By noon, a North Carolina Highway Patrol helicopter was in the air, searching the area from above. By 2 p.m., the State Bureau of Investigation was on the scene, and they had sealed off the house, only allowing the family

members who resided there to go in and out. Almost 100 volunteers gathered at a nearby Baptist church where a command post had been set up and they were directed to search a three mile wide area around Asha's house. Yeah. And I just want to double back for one second about what we said about canines, because I know the perspective from people I speak with is that canines are perfect. Oh, it's a dog. If they didn't pick up on something, there was nothing there. I actually was the sergeant in charge of reestablishing our canine unit for our department. We had lost it and it's a very expensive unit to have. And I was able to put together a thesis and convince the chief to bring back the canine unit, which is still active on the department today. Here's what I'll tell you from what I learned from my experience

overseeing that unit. The dogs are very good. They have like, I think it's like 300 receptor cells in their nose compared to us. It's like super something super crazy. And the dogs in general are very good, but the dogs are only as good as their trainers. And there are a lot of elements that can affect that. And I've had good handlers and I've had bad handlers. And the dogs, it's ironic, but they really reflect their owner. They kind of take on that personality as far as drive and their ability to perform their job. And I'll give an example where I was in narcotics and we would have a consent to search a car and I would bring over the dog first, a canine from my agency or a different agency to kind of do a cursory search to maybe hit on certain areas that

we should focus on when we're doing the actual physical search. Dog would search around the car, not hit on anything. And, you know, we're still going to search it obviously. And then I'd go in there and literally under the front seat is a kilo of cocaine. If you don't know what a kilo is, it's, if you can see my, it's huge, it's about $30,000 worth of Coke. And I'd pull, you know, I'd pull it out and show the canine handler. And000 worth of Coke. And I'd pull, you know, I pull it out and show the canine handler. And I'm like, what happened here? Oh, you know, I didn't, I didn't get that spot or whatever. It's like, dude, it's a kilo. So the reason I bring it up is just, you know, look into the fact that the canine didn't hit, but don't hang your hat on it. It's not the

end all be all. It is an aspect of it that you have to consider. And I'm not saying that this dog wasn't, you know, I could find out if I do a little research that this was one of the best canines in the state. I'm just saying, as we talk about this case and we talk about other cases, don't automatically assume that because the dog didn't pick up on a scent, there wasn't one. That's all I'm saying. I mean, it was her house. So you'd assume that there'd still be some sort of scent around the house, right? And that's also something that does happen. There might've been a scent. There definitely was a scent of hers in the house.

Sometimes the dog can be overstimulated where there's so many fresh scents and maybe her scent is so strong, he's not able to track it because it's kind of everywhere. So there's so many variables that we could talk about when it comes to the effectiveness of the dog. And that's why, you know, without going into all the nitty gritty of that, there are a lot of outside factors in every situation that can affect the canines performance. So when I hear this as someone with this experience, that's what I'm thinking. And now you guys will too.

Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Like there's so much scent and it's moist in, you know, outside cause it's raining. So maybe they were like, wait, there's so much scent and it's moist in you know outside because it's raining so maybe they were like wait there's so much like she's all over this place you know she's played outside here she's all over this place we don't really even know where to start so that could have been what happened so so many possibilities but but later there's another site where she was suspected to have been and they didn't pick up her scent there either so that's another thing we'll get to so the police found no sign of forced entry in the degree house all the doors had been locked when the family had woken up that morning so if asha had left she'd locked the door behind

her there was no sign of a struggle in the bedroom or the house um and her bed looked as if it had been slept in but it was left unmade which was unusual for asha because she would make her bed looked as if it had been slept in, but it was left unmade, which was unusual for Asha because she would make her bed as soon as she woke up every single morning. O'Brien, who slept just feet away from his sister, like I said, he heard nothing. Nobody heard anything. And Aquila and O'Brien and Howard, they answered questions. They were cooperating fully with the police. But Bob Roadcap, who is a chief deputy with the Cleveland County Sheriff's Office, he announced that early on, you know, everyone is still a suspect and they're not ruling anything out. So obviously the family, we've talked about

this before, they're going to start there. They're going to ask questions. They ruled the family out very early on. I think it was just a couple of days. They said they've been completely cooperative. They've been out there searching for her every day. They have kept consistent with their stories. They would not say whether or not the family took lie detector tests, but I feel like at this point, it's pretty straightforward. The police stopped looking at them as suspects very early on. It's so interesting. And again, as we kind of dissect this case, you really want to know how they were able to rule them out so quickly. And this is nothing against the family, but you want to know how they were able to rule them out so quickly because you have other cases like JonBenet where, yes, there were more elements of that. I'm in no way

comparing it, but you had a ransom note, all these other factors. But in cases like this, when there's no sign of forced entry, no sign of a struggle, no reason for the child to have left the home, there was nothing tumultuous taking place leading up to the event, the first people you would look at and not rule out definitively until you had something substantial to say there's no way they could have done this would be the parents, would be the parents and would be the siblings, anyone under the roof of that house. So the fact that they were able to rule them out so quickly, I'm not saying it wasn't warranted. I would just like to know the specifics of that because it would have to be a lot in order to say definitively there's no way they could have any involvement with this young girl's death or disappearance there's still some people online who who think that they might have had

something to do with it i'm not surprised by that i personally don't um i'm not saying they do either i'm just saying i'm not surprised that that should cross people's mind yeah it should it should be something that that you consider anyways if you're if you're into true crime and you're looking at these cases from a standpoint of critical thinking and kind of keeping an open mind, of course, that should be something you look at. Right. There's a reason the case hasn't been solved yet. Yes. But there were sightings of her after after leaving the house in that morning.

So it's probably why they ruled them out or one. They know that. Exactly. And again, I knew you were going there, but it's like the critical thinking aspect of it. Always looking at every possibility. You're going to come to stuff later in the story that's going to answer that question for everyone watching or listening to this. But it's something where I don't want people looking at this and just saying, oh, they just ruled them out because they were good people. There's more to the story that you

guys are going to hear where you're going to say as well, okay, now I'm on board. Now I get it. Yeah. And it's absolutely, I'm sure they had Harold's alibi, like what time he left work, what time he got back. They probably saw that their cell phones hadn't left the house, things like that. I don't even know if they had, what was this, 2000? They had cell phones, right? Oh, they definitely had it. I mean, it's funny because when you said 20 years ago, you're thinking, oh my God, that's- Like prehistoric. Were we still using stones to create a fire at that point? But the reality is we're in 2021. And so it wasn't, technology was pretty far along. Obviously, it's come a lot longer, but yeah, they were able to track coordinates with GPS technology and

things like that in 2000. that um i have to think that that's because he's in shelby north carolina like this isn't a big a big town there's there's not a lot of crime there you know so on and so forth so he probably hasn't seen like some of the abductions and stuff that bigger cities and and and things like that see but yeah these law enforcement officials will be constantly stumped by how out of the norm this disappearance is. You'll see that as the case goes on, they are just, they can't wrap their heads around it. And I think that it really bothers them. Some of these law enforcement officials took this very personally. Like one guy was like, I can't sleep at night thinking about this. I can't sleep at night thinking about her. I have to know where she is. I can't stop until I find her.

They went days without sleeping because they just couldn't put two and two together in their head. They were like, none of this makes sense. None of this adds up. So she has to be somewhere. She has to be just somewhere hiding, and she's just going to come out and be okay. Investigators also announced that they believed Asha

had left the house of her own free will. But once she'd left the house of her own free will. But once she'd left the house, she'd encountered trouble. And this was mainly due to the eyewitness accounts from several truckers who'd been out on the morning of February 14th, driving through the early morning darkness to whatever destination they were headed to. But let's take a quick break and we'll talk about that. All right, So we're back from break and I wanted to talk about what Stephanie just said as far as the effects it has on law enforcement officers, because I was in a smaller department as well. And we were fortunate enough to not have

many child abductions, kidnaps, things like that. And so, you know, I talked about her before. I'll talk about her probably a thousand more times as we do this show. Michelle Norris, literally lose sleep about it all the time. I can honestly tell you this case happened before I was even a police officer. And I still think about it all the time. I have the file to my left in a safe. I pull it out and I constantly go over my own notes that actually I got to freshen up the documents I have because they're photocopies because I've written out them so many times. But cases like this do stick with you because as human beings, we don't like having that lack of resolution, having that puzzle with all the pieces, but we just can't figure it out. And

these officers, as much as whether you like officers or not, it does become personal for them because a lot of them are fathers or brothers or whatever, cousins and have experienced things like this. And in a small town like that, it's only a few degrees of separation. Everyone knows everyone. So they're relying on you to find this young girl. And when you can't, it really can take a mental toll on you. But to what we were talking about earlier, where you finished up before the break, now it's starting to make sense for people because as you're going to get into

right now, there were eyewitnesses that saw Asha not with her parents. And that's obviously extremely important because if you're to think that they were involved in some way, you would expect that these witnesses who are unbiased and objective would say, yes, I also saw a man or woman, and that person would match the description of one of the parents or O'Brien, and they didn't. So that's why it's important as we're going forward to understand how they were able to rule the parents out. But I don't want to steal the thunder. I know we're going to go over the eyewitness accounts, and it'll give you even a deeper understanding of why these officers came to the conclusion

of ruling out the family, or at least the immediate relatives, I should say. So the first person to see Asha that morning was 25-year-old Jeff Rupp, and he was a truck driver for Sundrop Bottling Company. He was driving northbound on Highway 18 at around 3.45 in the morning when he spotted a little girl walking southbound with a book bag on her back. Now Highway 18, this is a rural two-lane highway. It starts at the South Carolina state line and travels north into Shelby. And then it connects Shelby to the town of Folston, Bellwood, Morgantown, and Wilkesboro. So this stretch of highway that Asha was seen on,

it was located about a mile from her house. Jeff Rupp said, quote, I seen a little girl walking down the road with her book bag. She had on a little dress and white tennis shoes, and her hair was in pigtails, end quote. So Asha had been seen going to bed wearing a white nightgown, and she always wore her hair in pigtails, like always. That's how she wore her hair.

Jeff was worried about this little girl who was walking in the dark through the rain completely alone. So he turned his truck around and drove back towards her to see if she needed help. But when he drove by her for the second time, Jeff claimed that she ignored him. And he said, quote, I went back, but she never did look up at me. She looked like she knew where she was going. She was walking at a pretty good pace, end quote. So Jeff Rupp passed by Asha one more time when he turned around to go back the way that he'd originally been traveling. And it was at this point that he noticed as he watched her in his rearview mirror that Asha was veering off the highway and she was going into the fog and darkness, like off into a field.

Now, about a half an hour later, Roy Blanton Sr. and his son, Roy Jr., they were also driving on Highway 18 and they were finishing up a trucking run for Porter's Transport. They were also heading north when they saw a small figure walking on the highway. Roy Blanton said, quote, it was a small figure wearing light-colored clothing. I thought it was a woman. I couldn't tell if it was a child. Thought maybe it was a domestic violence thing where a woman left the house and was out walking, end quote. Roy was worried because it was still dark and, you dark and it was foggy and the rain was causing low visibility, so he sent out a warning on his CB radio in his truck to warn

other nearby truckers that there was a person walking on the road, on the highway, and they should keep a lookout so that this walking person wouldn't accidentally get hit. Now, the clothes that she was wearing, they're reported differently, depending on what you read. So Jeff Robb definitely said she was wearing like a little dress, which leads us to believe she was still wearing her nightgown that she left the house in that she was wearing when she went to bed. But some sites and some sources say that Roy Blanton Sr. saw a figure wearing a long-sleeved white shirt, white pants, and white shoes, like dressed all in white. So it leads me to ask the question, was this the same figure? Because Jeff Rupp definitely said this is a little girl. You know, he drove back to see her

just to make sure because he was worried because it's a little girl. But Roy Blanton Sr. said it was a figure, probably a woman, couldn't tell if it was a child. He thought it was some sort of domestic violence thing. And he just sent out this call on the CB radio to warn other people. Was this the same figure? And how could it have been the same figure if Asha had veered off the road, off the highway? Would she have been back on the highway a half an hour later for Roy Blanton to see her? So this gets a little confusing. What do you think? So when I'm hearing it, there's a couple of thoughts that come to mind and thinking about it. When I was a kid and I'm walking, if I saw a suspicious person or a vehicle pass me multiple times or be in my area and I got nervous. I would not make eye

contact with them. And I would usually veer off into a driveway or a parking lot to make it look like I had arrived at my destination and there might be somebody waiting for me. So the behavior that we're hearing initially, as far as Asha veering off the highway. He did pass her multiple times, three to be exact. She could have looked at that as suspicious where maybe this person was going to try to hurt her. So she veered off the highway to try to avoid this person because again, the truck's not going to come off the highway with her. So by going into the woods, maybe standing by for a couple minutes and then coming back, that could potentially explain that behavior, why she did that. She was maybe in fear. Do I believe Roy Blanton saw her? I would want to

know exactly the distance between the two spottings, but it would be a big coincidence to have someone, because let's be honest, guys, it's not normal to see someone walking along the highway. I know we've all seen it, but every time you do, it's an anomaly. It doesn't normally happen. It's very dangerous. So to have Roy Blanton see this figure 30 minutes later in an area where she would have been if she had stayed on the highway is either a huge coincidence or it was in fact Asha. And I think the description of clothing, because he didn't have a good eye on it he was partially guessing and that's why i always tell witnesses don't guess only tell me what you know

not what you think and so i would think that he did see her if i i would think that it's too much of a coincidence at that time to see someone who even somewhat matched the description of our of our victim and as far as the dress as opposed to a nightgown it's possible that she was no it was um jeff said he he saw her wearing a little dress dress and the other pants and a long sleeve shirt yeah so i don't take too much in that um and it also could be like my initial thought was yeah it's the nightgown again but i don't know why she would be wearing a nightgown out to go out. Um, it's possible, or she was wearing something else similar that, that, you know, was in fact a dress and not the nightgown that's possible as well.

But as far as the discrepancy in the two descriptions of clothing, Roy has said he didn't have a good look at her, you know, he couldn't even tell. So he was really trying to fill in the blanks to be helpful. Um, but I think based on the timing and the location um I think it's too big of a coincidence not to be her honestly But again, that's just my that's just where i'm coming from based on the time frame between the two So i'm going to ask you this question again after I tell you more information. Okay, please do okay I'm going to

I know I know it's coming. So during the first day that they were searching for Asha, the State Bureau of Investigation, they obviously, they're questioning Asha's family, her friends at school, her teachers at school, her coaches. They also interviewed employees at convenience stores along Highway 18, trying to find someone who knew where Asha may have been heading or like if she'd told anyone that she'd been talking to someone who she was going to meet with, etc. They did talk to her friends and her friends were like, no, she never said anything.

We don't think she was talking to anybody. But I've always thought like maybe they just didn't want to get in trouble. I mean, these are young girls. Maybe they just didn't want to get her in trouble. mean, these are young girls. Maybe they just didn't want to get her in trouble. Maybe they literally thought, especially at the time, whoever she was with could be trusted because Asha had told them that. But I would think as they got older, if she had told them something, it would eventually come out. Don't you think? You would think so. And again, once she's gone missing for multiple days at that point,

even a young child, in years that a child would realize clearly whatever they thought think so and again once she's gone missing for multiple that you know days at that point even a young child yeah yeah in years that a child would realize clearly whatever they thought was the case was not and she was in trouble if she was even still alive um and you would think they would come forward but yeah there is that uh uh there is that element we were dealing with young people that they they feel now that so much time has passed the fact that they never said nothing initially they're kind of stuck and they that's that's a that has passed, the fact that they never said nothing initially, they're kind of stuck. And that's an element of it as well. True. I mean, but they'd be, I mean, they spent 20 years. They'd be in their 30s now. You think that, I don't know. Guilt.

I know. I mean, so many things. That's rough because that's a true unknown. That's true unknown. So when night fell on February 14th, obviously the volunteers had to hit pause on the search. But the sheriff's office was like, don't worry. You know, like it's not that we're not out there searching for her. We're still sending like officers out on patrol in the area. We're going to continue looking for her if she's lost and she needs help. We'll make sure that there's someone there.

But the searchers couldn't keep looking through neighborhoods and woods and stuff at night. The next morning, February 15th, volunteers went back out at first light to look for Asha. And this search effort, it was truly something to be proud of for Shelby. I'm proud of it and I'm not even from there. So obviously people who knew the family were out looking, they went out to look, they knew the family,

they were friends, but there was so many others who had never met Asha or her family, and they came out in droves. They just could not stand the thought that this little nine-year-old girl could be out there somewhere alone for like another minute. So, I mean, there was one guy, he was in his 20s. He said, you know, I have a four-year-old daughter. I don't know the family, but I'm going out to look. And he actually took like time off from work, unpaid time off from work. And he was out there every single day looking for her. Law enforcement also set up a roadblock on Highway 18. And this started at 3 a.m. on February 15th and continued for three hours.

They were pretty much hoping to find a motorist who had seen something that Monday morning, maybe on their commute to work. But no new clues came from this roadblock. So the reason that they set it up at three o'clock was, this is never said, but I'm assuming it's because that's about the time that she was seen on Highway 18. So they're going to go and set this roadblock up, hoping that anybody who normally drives that route, even if they're going to work super early, may have spotted her as well. The fact of the matter is they talked to a lot of people who were like, yeah, we were driving this way on Monday, but we didn't see anything. And that's always stuck out to me too, because it's these truckers, but nobody else saw her. Yeah. It's possible that she was trying to avoid being seen as well.

It really, I mean, it's possible if the plan was to run away from home and not want to be brought back, you would do some minor things to make sure that you're seen by as little people as possible. And that, again, would explain why she kind of veered off the road because she noticed that that trucker had taken notice into her and was probably going to stop her. So it would explain why there's a lack of sightings because maybe she was doing that intentionally. But here's the thing. She's wearing all white. So if you're trying not to be spotted, you don't wear all white, right? Yeah, she's nine. She wasn't sure to think it out.

She clearly didn't think it out all the way. But she clearly chose to wear all white for a reason. So was she wearing all white because she knew she'd be walking on a dark road and she didn't want to get hit by a car? Was she wear all white for a reason. So was she wearing all white because she knew she'd be walking on a dark road and she didn't want to get hit by a car? Was she wearing all white because maybe she had been communicating with someone and they were like, hey, walk around, you know, walk down Highway 18, wear all white so I can see you and I'll pick you up? Was she wearing all, what was the reason? You know, if you're going to try not to be seen, you're going to dress in

dark clothing. I feel like even a nine-year-old would know to try not to be seen, you're going to dress in dark clothing. I feel like even a nine-year-old would know that. Yeah. I mean, you would think so. But again, we can't always explain the minds. I can't explain the mind of my eight-year-old, which she does sometimes. So to think that you're going to execute this plan where you're going to run away from home without being detected, it's a lot. One thing I want to bring up, and you may have more information on this, but it was something that I was looking up because obviously there's a lot of information about this case online. And I wanted to have a visual representation of where was this highway in relation to their home on, what is it? Oak

Crest, did you say we said earlier? Oak Crest Drive. It looks about, Highway 18 is right near the house. It's very close. It's about a mile away to get to the highway, to actually get on the highway. About a 20 minute walk. About a 20 minute walk. If you're walking about eight minutes, if you're driving, and then it brings into consideration where on highway 18, because highway 18 runs a long way all the way up to 182. And you're going to probably get into it a little bit more. I don't want to give away, but if she was heading North, there was something in that direction that might explain why she was going that direction. I don't know if you're going to be bringing that up,

but I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. She was heading South. She was heading South. They were heading, they were, they were going, the truck was going North bound because I do know it looks like if you're heading towards 182, you did have Falston Elementary School up that way. So this is the exact same route that she would take to walk to her bus stop, that she and O'Brien would take every morning to walk to the bus stop. There was a theory that she was sleepwalking even, that she'd gotten up, grabbed her book bag, and started walking the normal route that she would. I don't believe it because I don't think that her normal route to walk to the school bus would bring her

to Highway 18. And I'm not an expert, but I think sleepwalking for 20, I mean, I guess it's possible, but if she didn't have a history of that. She did not have a history of sleepwalking. She had never sleptwalked before. She'd never sleepwalked before. So it's just a theory. It's one of those theories that comes out when it's like you've exhausted every other possibility and it's like maybe there's this half a percent chance that this could have happened. I think it's a strong theory, but I just don't think that a sleepwalking nine-year-old would have gotten herself a mile away to Highway 18. And she was cognizant enough to veer off the road for whatever reason. So again,

it's just something I wanted to bring up for the YouTube version. We'll definitely throw up the map because if you're not familiar with the area, you won't know. But to kind of give you an understanding of, well, how far was she walking? How far did she live from the highway? It wasn't that far. It wouldn't take her long. So again, with the time window that the sightings were seen in relation to when they believe she left the home, which is around 3 a.m., it does line up. It does match, which is important when you're trying to establish credibility and validity of the witness testimony. It all lines up. This person's telling information about this young girl, what she was wearing, the time

in which they saw him. It would line up with the theory that she left the home around 3 a.m. So that's important when you're trying to establish what witnesses are worth listening to and which ones you might want to put aside for now. So a spotter plane from the SBI was sent into the air and this plane was equipped with heat sensors and infrared equipment. Obviously, they're looking through like more dense areas of forest and things to see if there's any heat signatures in there that would show maybe a little girl hiding.

And the search was expanded to the area of Highway 18, where Asha had been spotted by the truckers. And one of the residences in this area belonged to the Turner family. This was the home and business of Charles Turner, who owned Turner's Upholstery at 2953 Falston Road in Shelby. Now, Charles's wife, Raleigh, and her daughter, Debbie, they were approached by a couple of searchers on horseback, and the searchers were like, hey, this little nine-year-old girl's missing. Can you check any of the buildings on your property for signs of Asha? So Raleigh and Debbie, they proceeded to look through their three outbuildings and this rundown barn or shed, depending on, once again, the source.

Some people call it a barn. Some people call it a shed. To me, it looks more barn-like. It's got higher ceilings. It's kind of big. But usually this barn was used to store old discarded pieces of furniture because this was a furniture business. And it also stored this pretty large farming tractor. So in this barn, the Turners found several items that they claimed had not been there before. There was a white pencil from the 1996 Atlanta Olympics. There was a green marker and some candy wrappers.

Near the tractor, there was also a wallet-sized photo of a young black girl and a yellow Haribo. So I don't think we've even said it, but Asha Degree, she's black. There's this little wallet-sized picture of a little black girl and this yellow Haribo. So Charles Turner would later tell the media, quote, there was a little picture next to the tractor. The Haribo was an inch and a half long, there was a little picture next to the tractor. The hair bow was an inch and a half long and it had a little teddy bear on it. It was solid yellow, end quote. So the next day, the Turners brought the photo of the little girl that they found into the police.

They didn't bring the other items in. They just brought the photo. But when law enforcement showed this photo to Asha's parents, they said, you know, not only was this not a picture of Asha, but they didn't even know who the girl in the photo was. So when the Turners were told that the picture that they'd found in their barn wasn't Asha, they assumed that the other items they found in the barn were unrelated as well. So they kind of like put them in a pile and put them to the side. They like stored them on their enclosed porch and they didn't bring them to the police. OK, we're going to take one more break before we finish up for today. So investigators continue to search for Asha and the search was extended to 25 miles from around her house. Flyers were passed out. They put out APBs.

They were finding nothing, and each search party returned empty-handed and heavy-hearted. The police purchased a pair of shoes the exact same size and brand as Asha's so they could compare to any footprints found. They even made photocopies of the bottoms of the shoes so that searchers could have like a physical copy to carry with them and compare to any footprints that they found. This is actually really great. I was impressed. I'd never heard of this happening in cases before. I'm sure it does, but I'd never heard of it happening and I think it was brilliant. And Jeff Rupp, the trucker who'd seen Asha walking on the highway Monday morning, the first one who had seen her, he was brought to point out to law enforcement the exact place that he believed Asha had veered

off the road because at this point Cleveland County Sheriff Dan Crawford believed that Asha may have gotten spooked while she was walking and then gone to search for shelter maybe Jeff himself spooked her by driving by her repeatedly you know and she's like this dude's trying to kidnap me I'm not going to make eye contact and I'm going to get the hell out of here. So she may have even been trying to, you know, get out of the rain because she doesn't like storms. But Jeff pointed to an area of Highway 18 near a field owned by the Turner family. Remember of Turner's upholstery. He was also given a polygraph, which he passed. So the next day, which was Thursday, February 17th,

the search was refocused to this area. And this brought them to the Turner's property again. Now remember, there's a lot of law enforcement working here. You've got SBI. You've got the FBI. You've got the sheriff's office. So you have a lot of different law enforcement agencies working. Then you have all these volunteer firefighters, fire departments, search and rescue teams.

So they weren't all kind of apprised to the fact that this little photograph had been found in the Turner's barn, and the Turners had already brought it to the police, and Asha's family had been like, we don't know who that picture is. So when they go to the Turner's property again, the searchers are like looking around the area and they found some candy wrappers on the ground. And obviously kids like candy. So they approached the Turners one more time and they asked if they'd seen anything odd within the past few days. And the Turners were like, yeah, I mean, we've already had people here asking us about this little girl. We did find some stuff in a barn, but the police said it wasn't affiliated with with Asha so this was a rickety old

barn didn't even have a door on it so it's not locked it's not closed Asha could have easily slipped in and gotten out of the rain so obviously law enforcement comes in now and they want the rest of the objects that they had found that the Turners had found in the barn along with the picture that Asha's parents hadn't recognized, and they presented these other articles to Harold and Aquila and found out that even though the picture hadn't rung a bell for them, the other items did. Harold and Aquila said that the pencil, hair bow, and marker were Asha's, and the candy wrappers most likely had come from a bag of candy she'd been given at school during a Valentine's Day party held in her classroom a few days before she had vanished.

A massive team of searchers was then sent to the Turner's property, and they began an inch-by-inch search. They were concentrating on finding anything that looked as if it had dropped out of a book bag that they believed Asha had with her, anything that had been overlooked during previous searches. The smallest thing, it wouldn't matter. They did inch by inch. Now, at this point, most of the law enforcement officials who'd been involved with the search, they had not slept in days. There were stories like the police officers getting a little cranky.

And I think it was one of the firemen. He was like, listen, yeah, they're cranky, but they haven't slept in four days since this started. So just like bear with us. But this new evidence that was found in the Turner's barn, it had given everyone renewed hope. And before sending the volunteers out for their inch by inch search, Detective Wayne Thomas announced, quote, I don't know about y'all, but I'm not giving up until I find this child. End quote. A canine dog was brought back in to see if Asha's scent could be picked up on the Turner's property,

but once again, no scent was found, and the disappointed volunteers, they basically had to pack it up at nightfall after finding nothing more but a few more candy wrappers. So they did find more candy wrappers outside the Turner's barn. Some of the candy wrappers were from Asha's favorite candy, so they figured she'd been there. Her stuff was there. They just didn't pick up her scent there.

Right. Well, we know she was there. And that right there is telling as far as the dog not picking up a scent because you have items that were identified as Asha's from her parents and yet no scent pickup, which doesn't, that doesn't compute. Um, but to go back to what we were talking about earlier, you said you were going to ask me the question again. Um, it still kind of holds true because I would love to know where the second individual Roy saw her in relation to the Turner's home, because it could explain where, as the theory was laid out earlier, the truckers driving by multiple times spooks her. She goes off to find shelter. She's in there. She has a quick bite to eat. She's maybe rummaging through the backpack. Her pencil

falls out. It's probably dark inside the barn, especially at that time. So she doesn't see that she's dropping these items. She has the candies and then she continues on her way, maybe continues on Highway 18, which is where she's seen again later, about 30 minutes after the first sighting. Correct so far? Yes, because that was the question I had. How did Jeff see her veer off the road? Obviously, we're assuming she veered off the road to go to the Turners, because this is a spot right by their field. And then she doesn't spend really much time there before she gets back on Highway 18 to be seen by Roy Blanton Sr., right? Yeah. And then she doesn't spend really much time there before she gets back on Highway 18 to be seen by Roy Blanton Sr., right? Yeah. And I mean, you got to look at it.

We're just looking at it as people now. And so if you're to think that this young girl, again, the theory that this was a runaway, she was leaving to go on an adventure or going to whatever the case may be, you would assume that this Turner place, if there was no evidence found that she had known about this shelter prior to this incident, that was an unexpected stop. She stopped there because of something that threw her off her path, which was A to B, which was down highway 18 to somewhere where either she knew she was going, or at least something that was familiar to her from her bus route. Her veering off to go to the Turner shelter, in my opinion, is nothing more than she was spooked. She stopped there to kind of get some shelter. Maybe it was still storming. Maybe she thought that trucker was going to come after her. She had the candies and she got back on the

highway. So I think it does give some credibility to Roy seeing her again, because if Highway 18 is what she knows, she's going to leave the shelter and go back onto the highway and continue down her route. So I think it does make sense based on how far Turner's house was from the highway where she could easily veer off. She's not sitting in there for an hour. She has a bite of candy. She's probably leaving in a rush and back on the highway she goes so this case drives me crazy i'm oh yeah they all do it's crazy but there's like a little spoiler here a lot of people feel that asha was never in that barn um not only because the dogs didn't pick up her scent but

because there was another guy who lived like pretty close by um he said he didn't hear anything the police talked to him and then there was another guy who kept like a bunch of dogs behind the barn. So I don't think he lived there, but he just like stored his dogs there or something. And he was like, I don't understand. Well, he must have lived there, though. So maybe it was the same guy who lived in the trailer. But he said, I have like 12 dogs back there. They bark at everything. Anytime somebody walks up, they bark. They didn't make a sound that night. So some people believed whoever took Asha planted those things there. And that leads me to talk about that picture, that picture that was found in the Turner's barn. Because to me, it's one of the strangest parts of this case. That picture has never been identified. It's been posted online. The police have asked, you know,

anyone know who this little girl is? Like, are you this little girl? Did you know this little girl? Is this your child? Still to this day, no one has come forward with any information about it. Now, many people online have theories about what this picture means because it's really hard to believe that the photo is not connected to Asha in some way. It was found along with her belongings after she went missing. Her family didn't recognize the girl in the picture, nor did the Turners. Some people think that this might not even be a real girl. It kind of does look as if it could be computer edited. So maybe they took like a composite, like two or more pictures and sort of like

edited them together to make it look like a girl, but it wasn't a real girl. It's kind of crazy. Maybe it was used by some sort of predator to lure Asha away. Maybe someone was pretending to be this little girl, or maybe someone was grooming Asha and communicating with her. And he's like, oh, yeah, look, I have this little girl with me. You guys can be friends. There's even theories that this little girl may be another victim of the same person who took Asha. And maybe he or she left this picture behind on purpose, like some sadistic, Zodiac killer breadcrumb trail, you know, sort of playing a game with law enforcement. But like I said, to this day, little girl in that picture has not been identified. It looks like this picture is kind of the one that a school photographer would take.

You know, it's posed with one of those like interchangeable backdrops. It's not great quality to begin with. And around the neck of this little girl, it's super blurry. It's just very creepy. And for anyone who's watching on YouTube, pay close attention to this picture. Let us know. Have you ever known a little girl who YouTube pay close attention to this picture let us know have you ever known a little girl who looks like this girl in this picture or maybe even you were the little

girl in the picture I know it's a long shot but it's a shot nonetheless you know I personally have heard of this case before and until I dove deep into it I didn't even know about this picture so I'm hoping that we get this in front of more eyes and figure out if maybe this is a real little girl. We can figure out who she is. And there are some online users who believe that that photo could be of another missing girl, a little girl named Lenora Jones, who went missing from Tacoma, Washington in July of 1995. Lenora was three years old. She was known to wear her hair in braids. She went missing. She's never been seen again. The little girl in this picture looks a bit older than four, though. So, but what if she was kidnapped and this creep is like taking school pictures of her

and leaving them in barns of where he takes other victims and stuff? Who knows? It's just super creepy. Like, what do you think about this picture? I mean, it could be everything. It could be nothing. How could it be nothing? Well, it could be nothing in relation to where that picture. So when we go to a crime scene,

and whether it's for larceny or robbery or murder, you want to collect every piece of evidence. And it's unfortunate, but in some cases, you may have pieces of evidence that are of value mixed with pieces that are not. Now, that being said, to find a photo of a little girl who resembles Asha in the area where her is completely just mind boggling and crazy to think that that could have been a photo that was left there by someone else at an earlier time. Listen, that photo could have been something as simple as Asha cut out something or grab something because it looked kind of like her and she liked the dress that the girl was wearing in the photo. It wasn't cut out like it was a it was a picture

like a wallet what i'm saying i'm saying like it could have been something that was something she found where she said oh that girl resembles me we don't know that's the thing but i will say this about the candy and stuff because i know there are people who believe that someone could have planted it there and the dogs and all this stuff. But again, this was not, if it were someone leaving a signature or something that wanted to be found, um, this person, this killer would have had to know that a trucker or someone was going to see her at that very moment to inform police that she veered off the highway to lead them to the area where he or she was going to plant evidence so that it would either mislead the police or give them some type of signature to

let them know that he or she had Asha. So I think if they were going to leave something behind to say, I have Asha or I did something to Asha, it would have been left in a more obvious place where it would undoubtedly be found. To me, sometimes the most simple answer is the right answer. And it sounds to me like the girl was eating candy in there. She was very tiny. She maybe got in there without the dogs noticing, ate the candy, and then she left and she was rummaging through her backpack. Because also, if you're to believe that this was planted there or this was left by someone else, her offender, why not just leave the whole bag? Why are you leaving little things here and there?

I don't know. I mean, I'm asking these questions- The bag will be found later. Well, but I'm saying why not leave it all there if that's what you're doing? Because it's a breadcrumb trail. But a breadcrumb in such an obscure location, you're really giving the law enforcement a lot of credit that they're going to find that without knowing that there's going to be a witness that sees her veer off at that very moment. They're basically relying on someone

they don't even know exists when they're planting it. Does that make sense? So you think that it's possible that she had that picture and it just fell out of her bag? I do. Yes. Where did she get it from though? Because this is Shelby, small town. They showed this picture around. Nobody at the school knew this girl. Nobody knew, like, where did this picture come from? If I knew that answer, we'd be getting somewhere now, wouldn't we? Yeah, but if you think it's possible, you got to figure out why it's possible. It's not only that I think it's possible.

It's I can't find evidence to say it's not possible. But you can't find evidence to say that it is, right? Right. No, exactly. So I'm not saying it is, but I'm not going to say it isn't because there's a real possibility. You know, listen, little girls hang photos of celebrities. I know that isn't the case here on their walls, things that they inspire to be like things, hairstyles that they want down the road. I know again, in this particular situation, it was braids. where i see what my daughters collect and i can't i i can go to tenley's desk right now half the stuff on there i couldn't explain why she has it sometimes it's a sticker or something that makes no sense whatsoever but you know if asha was here we would be able to ask her but is it possible that that she kept this photo for some reason yeah it's possible i don't know i don't know why she would, just like many others. So is it possible someone gave it to her as a ploy or mailed it to her or

handed it off to her at some point? Because I can't imagine where she would get it from if nobody in her area is that little girl, is what I'm saying. Yeah. And you know what? You bring up something that's worth diving into now as well, because when we talk about if she was going to meet someone, I would think based on cases that I've looked into case that I've read about cases that I've worked with you, that this person, if this was an adult, you know, or someone who was older and, you know, was taking advantage of a situation, they would more than likely have her meet them at a location close to where she was living. They wouldn't have her walking down a highway where she could be seen or this person can be seen. And they wouldn't have them meeting them in an area of a field where from my understanding,

from what we know, it wasn't a place of familiarity for Asha. She knew about the school. She knew about the bus stop. So that would be a location, but it wouldn't explain why she would stop at that midpoint, that location, or why this offender would stop there. So that's why I'm having a problem with it. But again, these conversations that you and I are having right now guarantee you law enforcement was having those conversations as well. They're still having them when they're doing their cold case investigations and they're going through the case and they're having new detectives look at it to try to give some new insight to what could have happened. This is why this case is so fascinating.

And this is a major reason why it hasn't been solved because these little things could mean a lot, could be the answer to the question, or it could be just something that's intended to throw law enforcement off, which is exactly what it's done and why you and I are discussing it today. So that's our question this week, guys. As far as the picture goes, do you think that it's connected to Asha's disappearance or do you think it was just an innocent thing she had in her bag that dropped out along with the candy wrappers and the pencil when she was rummaging through trying to find her favorite candy?

Let us know in the comments if you're watching on YouTube and if you're listening on Spotify or Apple or whatever. Let us know through social media or our website. You can leave us a speak pipe. Don't forget, you can always do that. We'd love to hear from you. I also found it very strange that the canine dogs were brought to Asha's house and the Turner's property, two places she was assumed to be on that rainy Monday morning, yet the dogs could never pick up her scent at either of these locations. You know, I always have found that strange. But you said, like you said, you know, it could be more about the handler. It could be more. I don't know. I feel like at the Turner's property, if she'd been there in that barn,

they should have picked up something, right? Been able to like follow her path if she went back to the highway or at least be able to pick up her path from the highway to the Turner's barn. Like what's going on with these canine dogs? Are they the worst canine dogs ever? I mean, I think, I think we should, again, that's why I prefaced it at the beginning. The fact that the dog wasn't able to find a scent for Asha around her home, even if it's the wrong scent, you know, just not leading to where she went. The fact that there was no scent detected is not promising that they would find a scent at a location, you know, just not leading to where she went. The fact that there was no scent detected is not promising that they would find a scent at a location, you know, a few miles away. So that's why I bring it up because I don't think the police were kind of hanging their hat on this, but it's something where it might add a mystery that doesn't actually exist. The answer could

be as simple as the dog just wasn't that good. You think they use the same dog? I don't know. It was a question I had. I figured we didn't have the answer to that. I don't have the answer. I looked for it everywhere. I'm assuming it was the same dog because, unfortunately, like I said earlier, dogs are very expensive and they're not just in every single department. So a lot of cases, one dog for a police department will be leased out or used in other surrounding communities because of the cost associated with it. So I would think it's the same dog, but I can tell you that we have purposely brought in

multiple dogs for this exact reason, because one dog might have a better pickup on a scent than the other. Well, the discovery of these items in the shed or the barn, whatever, it was the first tangible evidence in Asha's case. And when the searchers went back out the morning after the Turner property search, even though they hadn't found anything before, they were a bit more hopeful that at least they had gotten on the right track. Maybe they had figured out where the path was. They now had over 500 people combing through this area looking for any sign of Asha. And Sheriff Dan Crawford said, quote,

my gut tells me at this point that foul play is involved. I think she left on her own. My biggest fear is that she is somewhere hurt, not able to get help. What if she is only a tenth of a mile further from where we looked? End quote. Crawford also said that Asha's parents had been totally ruled out as suspects. They'd cooperated fully, answered all the questions, never changed their stories, etc., etc. Also, he mentioned how quickly they called 911 to report her missing. So there wasn't an extensive gap of time. And some of these missing child cases where the parents are suspected by law enforcement and by the public, you've got like this kid going missing and then they don't call the police and report their kid missing for like six hours, right? So then that's obviously

suspicious. Like why did you not report that your five-year-old kid was missing for six hours? That's always suspicious. So, you know, they basically said we don't suspect them. But on Friday, February 19th, Aquila was rushed to the hospital after experiencing shortness of breath. She's obviously stressed out. She's going through a lot. This is horrendous. I can't even imagine, and what happened was the sheriff's department had received a tip that a young girl had been seen walking near some railroad tracks near Highway 18, and even though this tip produced nothing substantial, it was obviously stressful enough where Akilah had this very stressed out reaction at being delivered a scrap of hope and then having it ripped away. And this happens quite a bit. And we'll get more into that in part two.

There's more things to get discovered. Asha's book bag gets found not shortly after she goes missing, but over a year after she goes missing in a very strange place. And there's suspects, there's people who are persons of interest, there's a vehicle that she was possibly seen getting into. So there's a lot more evidence to come and there's a lot more to talk about. But overall, what do you think of what we've covered so far today? Not taking into consideration what you're going to cover next week, right? But taking it at what we've covered so far, I think Sheriff Crawford nailed it. At this point in our story, in this investigation, you have a scenario where his gut tells him foul play is involved, but there's a reality where he's literally feet away from finding her and is in

the woods or whatever and and it's kind of goes back to the delphi case where you know the night before they search for these girls and they just missed them basically because of the elements and you know it was they were fortunate enough to find them the next day but there are cases where we don't even know about because they were never found where there was probably a body within feet from where the search was conducted. And due to the conditions of the weather and then animals and all these other things, eventually the body was kind of, you know, decomposed and then was, you know, taken away by the animals and will never be found because of that. So is that possible in this scenario up to this point? Yes.

In the case that we're talking about right now, yes, it is. And I can only imagine the effect that has on her family, the law enforcement community, and everyone else involved because they all want the same thing, which is to find her. But it's a fascinating case. And I think what we can take away from it at this point is it does appear to be a voluntary. This wasn't an abduction.

This wasn't a kidnapping from the home. She left voluntarily, not from the home. And there's two scenarios where she was either going to a destination to where she really didn't know where she was going to end up. She just wanted to get away and someone encountered her and took advantage of the situation. Or she was going to meet someone who had malicious intentions from the beginning. She was groomed. They were able to get her out of the house. She was able to get to that location, even if she made a pit stop. And ultimately, that's why we haven't found her to this day. But I think those are the two real

scenarios that we're left with. So I agree. And I think that's very intuitive of you, especially not knowing the full case, because what we come to find, especially after the book bag is found, the way it's found, there's no way she put that book bag there herself. Somebody hid it there, right? So somebody encountered her at some point, whether they lured her out. And if she was groomed and if she was lured out, how would that have happened, right? Because she didn't have a phone. She didn't have access to the internet. Her parents made sure of that. She was sheltered. So it would have had to have been a trusted adult in her life who did this. And there are many times since this case has kind of gone cold where law enforcement has made statements like, someone in Shelby knows something.

Now, why are they making these statements? That's not a benign statement, in my opinion, to, someone in Shelby knows something. Now, why are they making these statements? That's not a benign statement, in my opinion, to say someone in Shelby knows something. The police must have some kind of information that points to, like Delphi, something happening closer to home. So she may have been lured away. She may have been groomed.

Or she left on her own, even though I know that is the most common theory. I just cannot get my head around why this very meek, kind of, you know, shy nine-year-old girl would leave her house all alone in the middle of the night, in the middle of a storm. It's raining. It's cold. She doesn't have a coat on. It's dark. And she just starts walking on the highway for an adventure. You don't go out for an adventure in the middle of the night. I'm 37 years old and you will not catch me leaving my house at 3.30 in the morning to go out for any kind of damn adventure in the dark. Nope. I'm terrified of the dark. Okay. I'm not wandering around outside in the dark. I'm scared. And she was scared too. She didn't even let her aunt in without giving you know getting permission from her mother so why would she leave if not with a destination in mind um asha doesn't seem to me like the kind of girl

who's just gonna be like let's go on an adventure tonight and see where where the road takes us she had to have had a destination in mind so what was that destination and we're gonna talk more about that next time yeah i think it's know, too, there's also definitely something to me that says there's more to the story as far as what was going on at home than we know. Oh, you think? And it could be... I mean, it could be as simple as Asha felt like her parents were too controlling. It could be that simple where there was some disagreements about the amount of control they had over her life as far as who she could hang out with, what she could watch. It could be as simple as that, or it could be more,

but there was obviously something that caused her to want to leave her house. She's getting older. She's nine. She's getting older. Maybe she wants to- Dissension in the home. Maybe they found out she was watching Soul Train or something and they got upset about it because she was at a sleepover and they really monitor what she watches at home. Maybe she's not allowed to watch that at home. For me, it was The Simpsons. My mom did not want me to watch The Simpsons. Okay. But every time I went over to my friend's house, that is exactly what I watched. And my mom would always get very, very upset. She was a single

mother. She didn't have a lot of time to control what I was doing when I wasn't under her eyes. So you're right. I never even really considered that. You just see a happy family, especially like Asha and O'Brien. I mean, what a bunch of cuties those two were. They were so close. And I have a son and a daughter and they hate each other. They want to kill each other every single day. So that's so sweet to see that. So you see a happy family and you kind of don't pray or pry further because they're devastated. But yeah, I mean, they didn't have to be abusive or horrible to her for her as a nine-year-old girl getting older to want more freedom and maybe exercise that and maybe be upset about that. I mean,

maybe want a computer at home. This is the year 2000. Yeah, definitely. I would even go as far as saying that if this conversation happened between, because again, we're piecing this together, it's an open investigation, but I would even go as far Yeah, definitely. or she wanted to go on the computer for this thing. We said no. And she wasn't happy about it. She was upset. It could be something as simple as that that triggered it where she's like, I'm leaving. I don't want to be here anymore because kids overreact. But she didn't leave a note or anything. When I pretend ran away when I was nine, I would leave a note like, I'm leaving.

You're so mean. You're the worst mother. You're never going to see me again. And this is what you get because you really want to drive that home because you don't really want to run away. You just want to let your parents know that you're hurt yeah you're hurt and you want them to to realize that so it was nothing like that i don't know it's just strange nope it's definitely uh it's definitely a one that uh makes you stay up at

night even though we're not directly connected with it because again you want closure for the family you want some type of resolution i want to know where she is and what happened to her yeah of course but of course and i'm sure i'm sure the family does as well i'm sure they do but um come back and and join us next week we will dive more into the evidence and there is uh there's a lot more to come so we will see you then thank you so much for being here don't forget to subscribe if you're watching on YouTube by the way. We never say that because we do it for the podcast

and we put it but don't forget to subscribe and you should also share. You should definitely hit like and you should go on the podcast platforms and give us five stars because we love you

and we hope that you love us back. I agree with everything she said. Until next week guys thank you so much for being here. Bye. Later.