Crime Weekly - S1 Ep38: Mystery on Highway 18: Asha Degree (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 27, 2021

Check out Vodacast for this episode! -- http://feed.vodacast.com/56618488/Crime%20Weekly/38:%20Mystery%20on%20Highway%2018:%20Asha%20Degree%20(Part%202) “She’s my baby, we just want her back”, a statement that seems so simple to most of us, but to the mother of nine year old Asha Degree, it was a simple plea made from a desperate heart. When you wake up and find that your small daughter has vanished into thin air, there isn’t much you can say, because there isn’t much that you know. In the United States, more than 99 percent of children reported usually make it home safe, so it wasn’t illogical to have hope that Asha would have been one of those children, but as the years passed, and no new evidence came to light, it became clear that Asha Degree was in that much smaller percentage of missing children, the ones that never do come home. Today on Crime Weekly, we are revisiting this case, and hoping that someone out there knows something that can bring peace to the family of Asha Degree, who to this day still searches for their daughter, and have not given up hope that she might still be alive. Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

Bettering your business takes working with the best. With the James Hardy Alliance, you gain access to leads, training, networking, and support from the number one brand of siding in North America. Achieve new levels of success by joining the James Hardy Alliance today. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're continuing on with the Asha Degree case. This is part two. We're going to go over the rest of the evidence, the rest of the information, the rest of the timeline. And then in part three, we're going to go over theories, which there are quite a bit of, plus some of our own personal theories and our own thoughts about this case. So I do want to dive in. There is still so much to go over, and I'm excited to get Derek's perspective about what else happened in this case and what else was found.

When we last left off, they were still searching for a nine-year-old ASHA degree. On February 20th, 2000, that was the sixth day of the search. And although those who were still looking for ASHA, they obviously went and they gave it their all, they turned up empty-handed and the ground search was called off at the end of the day, indefinitely. The spokesman for the Sheriff's Department, his name's Bob Roadcap, he announced that the department had received more than 200 calls and a special department had been set up to conduct follow-up interviews and pursue every tip. He said, quote, what we need now is for

someone to call us with information. It's like she just vanished, but nothing in this investigation has been halted. I can promise you that. It's still a full-blown case. End quote. Roadcap also said that if something substantial came in from the tip hotline, they would call in as many searchers as possible. I think he said, you know, within a matter of hours, they could get between 50 and 500 people out there searching. And they were not going to give up. He mentioned that the whole thing was incredibly bizarre, how Asha's trail just seemed to end in that old shed on the Taylor's property. And he said, quote, it's like she stepped off the face of the earth. No one has been able to place her beyond that spot, end quote. into the search and they'd begun combing over the same areas twice and three times. So do you feel that when an actual search for a missing person is called off, law enforcement has reached this point where they believe that the person they're looking for is no longer alive?

No. No, I think that they, I'm sure behind closed doors, they're definitely having suspicions about what happened to her because the trail went cold and because of the statistics surrounding it. When a person's missing for that long, the likelihood of them being alive, whether it was an abduction or they were hurt in the woods, either way, if they haven't been seen by anyone, if they're injured or worse, if they haven't received medical assistance by that point, it does sometimes change from a search to a recovery mission. And I will say this, even though they call off the search, I bet you there's still things that are going on. I know that we might call off the public search,

but there's still more specific searches taking place. So I don't think necessarily when they say search is off, that doesn't mean she's dead. It just means that they truly believe they've done as much as they could at that point. And it becomes redundant. And I mean, 9,000 man hours, we've talked about some previous cases where the reaction wasn't that quick. The response wasn't that fast. And even when they did respond and do the search, it wasn't that efficient or effective. That doesn't appear to be the case here. So in my opinion, it wasn't for a lack of effort that they weren't they were unable

to find Asha. Yeah, I mean, and everybody was searching for her, you know, not just the police. I think her coach, Wilson, I forget his first name, but his last name was Wilson. He was out there every single day of the search for 12 hours a day. So there were so many people who were personally motivated to find her on top of law enforcement and trained searchers and volunteers looking for this little girl. And it just wasn't happening. Like they were going over areas that they'd already combed with a fine tooth comb. They just couldn't find her. And more than that, they weren't even finding any evidence that she'd been anywhere, which I think is extremely frustrating, especially when they found her stuff in that shed. And then they were like, oh yeah, this is it. We're on the right track now. Let's look around this area. And then to find nothing in that area, it literally was like she stepped into that shed and disappeared. I think it's kind of, I'm not a hunter, but I think it's kind of like a hunter where you might pick up on like a blood trail

for a deer you just shot or something and you have to follow it. But there are times where a hunter will shoot a deer, find a blood trail for a certain distance and then lose it. And unfortunately they know the deer is dead somewhere in the area, because the woods are very they're a large portion to cover at some point they just have to give up because they know they're not going to be able to cover their tracks enough to know which areas they cover and what they didn't so i'm sure grid was implemented during this time they they marked off all the areas covered they feel like they searched those areas um as good as they could and that point, you have to just rely on new information, something that may heat up the trail again, some random call, an anonymous call,

some new piece of information that's found out, another piece where a neighbor or someone who's walking through the woods or something finds a piece of evidence that would suggest Asha was there. Unfortunately, it's a waiting game. And I think at this point, that's where they were. Well, in March of 2000, a child interview expert with the DOJ, so the Department of Justice, was brought in to re-interview Asha's brother, O'Brient. And for those of you who don't remember, O'Brient was just a year older than Asha. They were very close. And this woman also interviewed some of Asha's friends. The child interview expert, her name was Kimberly Poye, and she wasn't really able to get a lot of

new information besides the fact that Asha apparently had been keeping a few dollars in her wallet. And she had showed that she had a couple of dollars to her friends on February 10th, which was four days before she went missing. Now, it's still unknown where Asha got this money from or whether she would have still had it on her person when she vanished. But that same month, a billboard was erected on Highway 18 with Asha's face on it and a number to call if anybody knew anything. And this billboard was put up right at the spot where Asha had been seen by that trucker, Jeff Rupp. And once again, for those of you who don't remember exactly everything that we talked about in part one, Jeff Rupp was that 25-year-old trucker. He was the first person who saw Asha.

He drove past her, and then he went back to pass her to see if she was okay. And then he drove past her a third time, and he's the one who saw her veering off the highway and going towards the area where the Taylor's barn would have been. And I read something today where they said the distance between where Asha would have gone off the highway to the Turner's shed, she would have had to have crossed like two football fields with, and she would have had to have gone over a creek and kind of like up a hill. So not the most ideal terrain for a nine-year-old girl to cross, quite a ways. It wasn't just like she turned off the highway and there was the shed. They think that this light that was left on outside of the shed or the barn, it kind of guided her there. She would have been able to see it through the early morning mist. She would have thought, you know, there's somebody lives here. I can get help. And she

would have been able to find that barn, which just had the door. They had no door on it. So she could have just gotten in easily. Yeah. And I still think, and I said it last episode, and after doing a little bit more research with having a limited amount of information to go off of, I still believe that although Jeff had good intentions, I really believe in my heart that the reason Asha veered off Highway 18 was because of Jeff. I think that she got nervous. I think she was frightened that he was going to do something bad.

He had some nefarious intentions. And seeing that light, she felt like she could be safe because she got far enough off the road where the trucker wouldn't be able to follow her. I believe that. And I haven't seen anything that would make me believe otherwise. Yeah. A lot of people think that he spooked her, but he didn't mean to. 100%. Not his fault at all. He had no idea what she was doing out there. He had no idea what she was doing there alone. And she was a shelter child. So she was probably warned about stranger danger and all of

that stuff by her parents and you know it it kicked in when she needed it to but unfortunately if if he had been able to make contact with her if she could have climbed in i know i know she could have climbed in he would have brought her home she would have been at the end of it fine i know but i would never tell my nine-year-old daughter, yeah, get in a truck with a trucker who says he's trying to help you, you know? So it's really one of those no-win situations here. It's sad that we have to teach our kids they can't trust, you know, even somebody who appears to be a helpful stranger.

Like, you still can't trust them. Well, that's why we said in episode one, right at the start, where parents can do everything right, but sometimes just luck, like timing and luck can be the deciding factor. And that's why I said the parents were unlucky. Yes, there's more to the story, but just the series of events that took place, if just one little thing changed, you and I might not be here today talking about this. So that's what I meant by it. And little things like this is why I felt that way. And yeah, it's unfortunate. I wish we weren't here talking about it.

Agreed. Well, a year and a half passed before anything substantial would come up in Asha's case again. We're going to take a quick break before we talk about what was found about 18 months after she went missing. Okay. So it was August 2nd, 2001, a 44-year-old Burke County contractor named Terry Fleming was doing some grading work in the woods off of Highway 18. So I think that grading, I'm not sure. I think it's just like evening out the ground. Am I right? Yeah, absolutely. Grading out, leveling out the ground. Yep. Okay. Usually rock or sand or soil. Good. I'm glad that I was right because I meant to look that up and see exactly what it was and I forgot to do that. Grading out the... It also

can be grading it out where you're going from a lower level to a higher level, but doing it in a like... Even way? Yeah, subtle way where it's not like a... A gradual. Yes. Gradual way. Yeah. Subtle way where it's not like a gradual incline or yes, gradual. It's a great word. Yep. So Terry was the owner of Precision Grading and he was basically working on creating a driveway through this area of the woods. So I think they were building a house like in the woods and these people wanted a driveway that went off the highway to their house. So that's what he was doing there. He was using a heavy-duty 47,000-pound backhoe to dig up the earth, and while he was doing this, he uncovered a black plastic bag, a garbage bag. Terry later told the media, quote, I noticed it for a while and didn't bother it. I go in and

clean up areas all the time and never think about it, but this looked strange to me, end quote. Terry finally opened the garbage bag after coming across it multiple times, and inside he found a black and beige book bag. He opened the book bag and he saw a name and a phone number written inside. So Terry said he wanted to call someone, try to call maybe that number, try to call the police maybe, but he claims he was working under power lines, so he wasn't getting good cell service, and he ended up just leaving the book bag where it was. He said he didn't touch anything inside,

he didn't remove anything, nothing. But he did write down the name and number that he found in the book bag on a separate sheet of paper so that he could figure out what to do about this discovery later. But then he went home and he had some work calls and paperwork to do and stuff, and he completely forgot about it until the next day. And the next day, he shows his wife this number and this name. And the number was Asha Degree's home number. And it was her name. So it was her book bag.

And Terry's wife was like, hey, this is Asha Degree. She went missing like a year and a half ago. It was all over the news. Like, you need to call somebody. So this area off of Highway 18 where Terry was working, it was about six miles south of Morgantown, North Carolina, and almost 30 miles north of where Asha Degree had last been seen on the highway. So obviously, Terry calls the police at around 10 a.m. the day after he finds the book bag. He reported what he had found, and within 45 minutes, the site was secured by law enforcement and Burke County police had contacted the Cleveland County

Sheriff's Office. So Burke County and Cleveland County, they're neighboring counties. They're right next to each other. You know, I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't probably already registered in most of our viewers' minds right now. When we talked about this case in part one, there's a few possibilities. There's a possibility that Asha got lost in the woods, got hurt somewhere, and they didn't find her. But then there's the possibility that she was kidnapped, she was abducted, and she may still be alive or she may be dead. This right here really puts to bed the idea or the theory that she was hurt in the wood, injured in the wood somewhere, and they just couldn't find her. Or that she just ran away of her own free will. That she just ran away of her own free will. This is what she decided to do, finding that book bag 30 miles away and seeing that it was buried to some degree.

We don't know how much he dug down to find it. It was pretty well hidden, yeah. Dug down. So that says somebody did that. And then secondly, if it being buried wasn't enough, it was placed into a garbage bag. Again, that has to be a human interaction with that book bag. And there would be no reason for Asha to do that whatsoever.

So this is highly suggestive that Asha was taken. Whether she's alive or not, as we're sitting here right now, that's still open. I mean, there's a possibility she could have been kidnapped, kept somewhere,

and she may still be alive as you and I, Stephanie, are having this conversation. And we hope she is. But I do think that whether you're an investigator or just someone who listens to true crime, Asha was more than likely taken by someone. And this someone is the person who more than likely buried this backpack because they didn't want it to be found. Exactly. Exactly. If somebody took her, which clearly this, why would Asha go 30 miles away from where she was seen on the highway and bury her own book bag, which is everything she packed when she left the house.

Somebody encountered her when she was out. They did something to her and then they tried to hide the evidence. Yeah. It's an unfortunate thing. Like you, you, it's, it's not bittersweet. That's a wrong phrase, but it's like you want more information. You want to know what happened. Because again, you asked this question to people in the comments, I believe it was two episodes ago, would you rather know or not know? Well, you'd rather know, but I'm sure finding this piece of

information for the family, it must have thinking that. It must have been terrible because again, it doesn't take someone who is in law enforcement or whatever to know this is not good. This is not a good indication of what happened to Asha on the day she disappeared. I was just thinking that like, if you're her parents, they find her, you know, a couple of her belongings in the shed,

not far from her house, like a mile and a half from her house. So you're thinking, okay, she ran away. She may be scared. She may be lost in the woods. We're going to find her. A year and a half passes, this book bag gets unearthed. And as her parent, your heart must break into a million pieces because you know, at that point, not only did she go missing, but she encountered foul play. She encountered somebody who most likely meant her harm. And now you are tortured with that new realization after a year and a half of having to suffer every day, not even knowing where your nine-year-old daughter is. It has to be completely devastating.

Like you're being killed over and over again. I can't even imagine. Well, the search of this area, because obviously they want to see if there's more evidence around and if there's possibly a body around, it took place on a 20-foot embankment. And also it included a nearby creek. And both of these areas had not previously been searched by police. Why would they? They were so far away from where she went missing. There were 100 people searching this area and it was very treacherous. There was thick brush. There was like snakes. People said there was like snakes jumping out at them. These were like jungle-like conditions, and they kept this up for seven hours. They were told to keep an eye out for light clothing, such as the clothing that Asha had

allegedly been wearing when she was seen walking on Highway 18 the morning of her disappearance. They were also told to keep an eye out for potential grave sites. They would do that by looking for mounds of dirt, sunken areas, or unusual vegetation. A cadaver dog was also brought in, but once again, they found nothing new besides some scattered bones that ended up belonging to various animals. The Cleveland County Sheriff's Office would never reveal exactly what was in Asha's book bag, and you see this a lot in this case. It's kind of frustrating because they'll tell you just this small little information, but then they do not elaborate on it at all.

They did say, however, that there was clothes in there, and 99.9% of the items found inside the backpack had belonged to Asha. The backpack had been double wrapped in a garbage bag, which law enforcement said they believed had not belonged to Asha, and the garbage bag with the book bag in it had been buried, hidden. The sheriff's office gave a statement saying, quote, it's highly unlikely she placed them there herself. We have reason to believe that was not Asha's plastic bag, so it certainly heightens our suspicions that one or more people were involved, end quote. It's also believed that this book bag had been buried months before it was found, and the bag and its contents were sent

to the FBI in Quantico for further testing, which they did complete in 2003, but the results from those tests were never released to the public. So there's a lot of speculation about what exactly was in Asha's book bag, but there's a blog called Finding Asha Degree and the person who writes this blog, I believe it's a woman, she's gone through multiple reports about the book bag and she's put together a list of its alleged contents. So there apparently were several articles of clothing inside, including Asha's favorite pair of jeans that had a red stripe down the side, a long-sleeved white nylon shirt, a red vest with black trim, black overalls with a Tweety Bird decal on them, a black and white

long-sleeved shirt, and her basketball uniform. Her Tweety Bird purse was also located inside the book bag, along with a pair of black shoes, Asha's wallet, and house keys, and three family photos. Now, there's some confusion or controversy, I guess, about the basketball uniform, which seems to have stemmed from a February 2001 article printed in the Charlotte Observer, in which they state that the uniform, the basketball uniform had been found in the book bag, but it's not listed on the FBI website with the other contents of the bag. However, other articles have printed that Asha packed her basketball uniform. So we don't really know for sure and there's never been any confirmation one way or the other. There was also two other items that may have been in her book bag.

There's been a heated debate online as to whether or not these things were actually found in the bag or if they were found at a later point and then connected to Asha. But the FBI's website does confirm that they were in the book bag, even though investigators didn't bring these items to the public's attention or release images of them until 2018. So when the book bag was found, the sheriff said that 99.9% of the items inside were Asha's. That meant that maybe these few items were not belonging to Asha. And these items were a concert t-shirt, which featured the New Kids on the Block, and a Dr. Seuss book titled McElligot's Pool. So it's a Dr. Seuss book. Neither of these things were identified as belonging to Asha, but the book had been checked out at the Falston Elementary School Library, and that was the same school that Asha attended. The Cleveland County Sheriff's Office posted image of these two things on their Facebook page in 2018, and they asked the public to think about whether they or anyone that they knew had owned a New Kids on the Block t-shirt, like the one

pictured, or if they remembered checking out the Dr. Seuss book, or if they owned a Dr. Seuss book that they no longer had or they'd lost track of. Apparently, the book had been checked out early on in the year 2000, right around the time that Asha went missing, and since the library records didn't go back that far, they obviously needed help from the public. Now, law enforcement would never reveal why these two items were important, like what their connection was to Asha going missing, or how they figured out that these items did not belong to Asha. It's believed that the Dr. Seuss book probably had some sort of checkout card inside, You know when there's like a card inside and it says you have to return by this date. But there was no corresponding records from the school to point it to the person who had

checked it out. And I guess that Asha's parents said, no, she never checked this out. She didn't have this book. The New Kids on the Block t-shirt is very odd to me as well, because if you think about it, Asha went missing in 2000. So she was born in 1991. And although the New Kids on the Block, they did see a great deal of success and fame in the United States, they basically enjoyed most of that in like the 80s and the early, early 90s. So it's

hard to understand why a nine-year-old girl in the year 2000 would be a fan of this band who, you know, by the time she was born, they were already kind of going into their downswing. The band did have a reunion of sorts, but that didn't happen until eight years after Asha went missing. So I did some, you know, looking into this and I found out that during the summer of 1990, the New Kids on the Block, they went on a magic summer tour. And this did bring them to North Carolina, Charlotte, specifically on August 9th in the year 1990. But then between 1994 and 2008, they didn't tour at all. So either this shirt did not belong to Asha at all, and it was somebody else who had put it in her book bag, or she'd gotten it from a friend or somebody, but no one she knew admitted

to having ever seen it or giving it to her. Nothing. Yet, according to the FBI's website, it was found in her book bag. What do you make of this? And were you a New Kids on the Block fan? First off, huge New Kids on the Block fan. My first concert I ever attended was a New Kids on the Block concert. I had the belt to, yeah, I was rocking the belt. Um, but I really want to kind of unpack everything you just said. So before we do that, let's take a quick break. So a few things here, cause you really, you covered a lot there and I know what you're saying as far as the FBI, the FBI not being able to confirm that

these two items belong to Asha, but just to throw out another alternative theory there. They did. So on the FBI website- They're saying 100% it's not hers. Yes. They're saying those items were not hers, but they were found in her book bag. Although local law enforcement, like the Cleveland County Sheriff's Office, they never said they were found in the book bag. And if you think about it, the book bag was found in 2001 and the police never even brought this to the public's attention until 2018. So here's my thing about it. I'm pulling from personal experience here. I'm the one, I empty my daughter Tenley's book bag all the time, her, and also her winter jacket pockets

when, you know, she, you know, during the colder months and I can't tell you, and she's only in the third, she's going into the third grade. How many times I pulled things that were insignificant, but then things of value. And I'm like, Tenley, where'd you get this from? This is, who's it? What is this? And she's like, oh, my friend said I could borrow it for the day. Or so they like trade things, you know, throughout the week. So I'm just interested. I'm not disputing it. I'm just interested to see, or no, I should say, you know, one, if they were able to confirm that it definitely in no way, shape or form could have been hers. I'd be interested to know how they did that because I don't know how they would rule out the possibility that this book and the shirt was borrowed from a friend where they were

just exchanging stuff. And that was something that she wanted to get back to that person at some point. So she took it with her because it was valuable to someone she cared about. That's just a theory of mine. Again, we say this all the time. The agents and the officers working in this case have way more information than you and I have, but that's just something that's running through my head because if they're able to definitively rule out the possibility that although Asha's parents

couldn't identify these items, I don't know how else they would, if they don't know who the shirt belongs to, how do they know for a fact it doesn't, it didn't belong to her at that moment where she was carrying it around for someone. And maybe that someone is a nine-year-old girl or an eight year old girl. And they just didn't know that the police were looking in, you know, looking for it. Cause I'm sure there was a lot of those shirts made, right? That's one thing I have. I don't know if you will want anything to add to that. Well, they asked her friends, asked her friends right yeah yeah i would assume they showed him pictures yeah i would assume they asked her friends they asked the teachers yeah they asked the teachers at the school like is this your shirt did you give this shirt to her no one could figure out where that shirt had come

from it's crazy and it even goes back to that photo right you know not to break up the photo like there are items in in her bag or that might've been in her possession that don't appear to belong to her. And I, as an investigator, you know, other than talking to the family, other than talking to the kids at the school, which eight, nine-year-old kids, it's kind of a tough way to interview because they're not the most credible witnesses, but I'm assuming they always went back to the parents. Yeah. I would. And said, Hey, does your kid have a shirt like this? Right? Yeah.

And they said, no, of course not. And they're telling the truth. Right. They're the ones that do the laundry. Right. Yeah. They would know. So that's one thing where I definitely think if you don't know about it, it's worth exploring.

I love that they're doing this because if you don't know the answer, you need to find out. Can I ask you a question though? Yeah. Before we move on? Yeah. Okay. So they find the book bag in 2001, shirts inside of it, according to the FBI website.

Yep. Why do they not ask for the public's help until 2018? Who the hell's going to remember checking out a damn Dr. Seuss book from the library? You know, how many years later? Like, that's a lot of years. That's like 17 years later. Who's going to remember owning a New Kids on the block t-shirt 17 years later? Am I doing the right math here?

2001 to 2018. That's 17 years, right? Yeah. Even basic math's hard for me. So I don't have an argument. I don't have an argument for that because it doesn't seem like it would hurt the case. And so I don't see why you wouldn't put it out sooner, even if it wasn't immediately within like three to six months, put it out there, give you a little time to go to the students and teachers. But I don't have a good argument for 17 years. when an agent or an officer or detective has a case and they're assigned case one two three

and they may be in detectives for 15 years and they have that case the entire time but then that detective retires or they get promoted to sergeant or something and it gets assigned to someone new or it gets put back into the the the the cabinet or i should say the uh the database the internal database where that may not get assigned to another detective for a couple months. And then that detective may keep it aside in this cold case file and never open it unless someone calls them on it, like a witness or a tip comes in. So I'm not saying I agree with it,

but there have been times where we pull out cases that happened 20, 30 years ago, and they haven't really been touched since. So just by promotions and through attrition from people leaving agencies, these things can fall through the cracks. Is that what happened here? I don't know, but is it a reality? Is that maybe an answer? Absolutely. Hate to admit it, but it's the truth. It can get lost because there are millions of cases that the, you know, Asha degrees of the world, these missing kids for the FBI where they're looking into them and they get, they get put aside for new possible reason why, oh crap, this is 17 years. We should have put this out a long time ago. Let's put it out now,

even though it's probably not going to do anything at this point. Because it really wouldn't, right? I don't see the reason. I don't see, sometimes you and I debate as far as certain information they want to give out and you're like, oh, I don't know. And I'm like, I could see why they would hold that back. A Dr. Seuss book, a New Kids on the Block t-shirt.

I think the sooner you get it out, the better because the more of a chance of someone remembering that they gave it to her or that they had traded or a show and tell one day and they had stuck it in her back, whatever the case may be. But one more thing I wanted to go back to the double bagging of her backpack itself. For me, it's really not good because if someone was just trying to hide evidence, you know, they, they kidnapped her or they killed her. I don't think they would take the time to put it in a garbage bag to preserve it because they don't care if it gets destroyed. That's better for them.

I kind of feel like it was a keepsake. I kind of feel like it was a keepsake because if you think about something, you have this backpack and this backpack could come back. If you're the bad guy, this backpack could link back to you. If it's found in your car, in your garage, anywhere, if that's found on your purse, on your person, you're in trouble. So why wouldn't you just burn it? Why wouldn't you throw it in a river?

Why wouldn't you? There's so many different things you could do. But to put it in that garbage bag is a form of preservation because it's going to keep some of the water out. And so for me, I'm not a psychologist, but it sounds like something you would do if you intended on going back and maybe looking at it or getting it at a later date. And it probably was in those garbage bags for a period of time before it was buried, where they were keeping it somewhere so that it wouldn't be completely identifiable just by walking by. It was inside of a garbage bag. But then to keep it in that garbage bag and bury it as opposed to physically destroying it,

there's only so many reasons why you would do that. And I feel like it would be signs of a keepsake where they didn't want to keep it near them because then it could implicate them. I know that's speculation, but what do you think about that? It's a really good point. I was even thinking, you know, because it wasn't two garbage bags, it was one garbage bag, but like- It was double wrapped. Double wrapped. So they took some time with it. They really wanted to make sure it was watertight.

Yeah. So I was thinking maybe they're trying to hide like the scent of Asha inside the bag. Like maybe they don't want it to be picked up by dogs maybe something like that but even so that goes back to your original question which is why not destroy it then if you don't want it to come back yeah burn it throw it into a big fire yeah it's game over so they clearly maybe wanted to come back and and view it as a trophy go through it relive the attack on this little girl. Yeah. Yeah.

That's scary. And so it was just something that crossed my mind. I have nothing to substantiate it, but I just think common sense would be if you're worried about something being found, you're not going to bury it in the woods and preserve it in a way where if it was dug up, it would be in pretty good condition, right? Your DNA could be on it, things like that. So it's like, it just feels like it was done where it was a remote location where only the person who put it there would know where it is. And it would be in a decent condition if they decided to go back and dig it up and look at it again.

So here's another question. All of this stuff, including the new kids on the black shirt and Dr. Seuss book, the whole book bag with the plastic bag around be keeping quiet? And why won't they give a little indication of what they found or didn't find? I would say this, if they didn't find anything, they definitely wouldn't tell us because they want the person who did it to think they still might have something. And as far as if they do have something, why they wouldn't reveal it, I know you and I won't agree on this this but it's because they feel like they have a partial you know a partial dna that they could maybe link to something down the road as technology advances and they don't you know if they don't have anything yet what's the point of putting it out hey we found dna we don't got all your dna yet but just you wait. If technology catches up, we got you.

You know what I mean? So I don't know why they would release that it was unsuccessful. If it was successful and they were able to match it to somebody, you and I would be having a much different conversation today because they would have went and bagged this guy. So I almost wonder if they did find some sort of partial print or partial DNA profile. I hope so. Because later, they'll come across these suspects and they get DNA and hair samples and stuff from these suspects. It's a good sign.

So that is right. Or I was thinking maybe they were doing that just in case they found her one day and then they would have this DNA on file to compare against. But it could be that they did find something at Quantico on this bag. And you might not be wrong, too, by the way. You might be right where they didn't find anything on the bag and they're just grabbing DNA because they may find something down the road that does have DNA and they're not going to go back and, you know, ask these individuals again to submit samples. So it could be either, or both are very plausible. They might have nothing from the bag

and they're just getting this DNA in case they find something down the road. Or as we just suggested, they got partial DNA and they're using something down the road, or as we just suggested, they got partial DNA and they're using that and the technology available now to try to see if there's any similarities between the DNA that they found and these people, whether it's familial or whatever it might be, so that it could start to get them on the right path that they speak to someone and they do find that it's a partial match. It might not be able to be admitted in a court of law, but you could probably have a DNA specialist say, hey, I don't have a ton to say definitively that it's him, but from what I do have, it's possible. That's very interesting. It is a little frustrating

from our standpoint that we know these forensic tests were done on something that very likely was handled by the person who was responsible for Asha going missing. And we don't know what they found. I think you nailed that. I mean, I think definitively, whoever put this bag there absolutely knows what happened to Asha. No doubt in my mind. Well, in February of 2001, an inmate at the Mecklenburg County Jail wrote letters to law enforcement officials and the Charlotte Observer claiming that he knew what had happened to Asha. Now, this is different

than the one you sent me the other day. It's a different inmate and a completely different chain of events. So this man's name is Baron Ramsey. He had a lengthy criminal record and he'd actually attended school with Asha's mother, Aquila. So he claimed that in the early morning hours of February 14th, 2000, which was the day that Asha went missing, he and another Cleveland County man were driving along

Highway 18. He said they were coming back from Hickory, North Carolina, after purchasing drugs. And Ramsey claimed that he was in the passenger seat, the other man was driving, when their vehicle struck a little girl who was walking on the road. Now, according to Ramsey, this little girl was still alive, but unconscious, and they put her into the back of the pickup truck and kept driving. After that, Ramsey was dropped off at home by this other man, who drove away with this little girl still in the back of his truck. But a few days later, Baron Ramsey went with this man to Moss Lake near Kings Mountain, and the two of them threw her body into the lake. Baron Ramsey claimed that he had been feeling guilty about this, and he wanted to bring Asha's family some sort of closure.

So investigators searched large stretches of Highway 18. They were looking for some sign of like an accident, a hit and run. They were looking for like car parts or skid marks or even blood to corroborate the story. They also dragged Moss Lake twice. Once they used an underwater infrared camera and they brought in dive teams from Gastonia and York County, but they found nothing. The following October, Baron Ramsey was transferred to the Cleveland County Jail because he told investigators that he was going to arrange a meeting with the man who was driving the pickup truck that morning and police officers. But once he was in this less secure facility, Ramsey began making plans to escape with other inmates until a fellow prisoner tipped off the guards. So until November of that year, this is after he says this, this is after he's transferred to Cleveland County. The police had not told Asha's family about this tip because they obviously they don't want to get their hopes up.

And they frankly had never really believed Ramsey's story. He'd failed several polygraph exams and the alleged meeting he was supposed to have set up. It never happened because he was too busy planning his jailbreak. But Asha's mother, Aquila, told the media, quote, when we first heard it, I was angry because it was a lie, end quote. So she, you know, the family never believed it either. She probably knew this dude from high school and she's like he's trouble why somebody would do this I mean we see it in almost every case honestly somebody claims they know something because they either just want to cause more pain

or they want some sort of plea deal or some sort of reward yeah they want some reward for their part in it. But it's just very disgusting to re-victimize this family. And around this time, Asha's brother, O'Brien, he was having a very hard time trying to deal with his little sister's disappearance. I mean, he was her hero. He was her protector. He loved her so much. And losing her from his life, it was just incomprehensible how much it affected him. He started sleeping in his parents' room at night, and he was seeing a mental health professional twice a week. He was very, very scared and sad. But before we continue on, let's take a quick break. So before the break, you were talking about O'Brien and it's easy to sit here and kind of be like, oh, you know, he can't beat himself up for it. You know, he's he's not responsible for this.

And but you know what? We wouldn't know. We haven't been in that position. He he was the only one there who heard his little sister get out of her bed. And I'm sure every day it goes through his mind. Like, what if I just rolled over and said, hey, go back to sleep, you know, get back. What are you doing? Get back. Just, just by interacting with her, it might've deterred her from leaving. So I, I'm not even going to sit here and say that he shouldn't feel bad or that, you know,

cause it's not going to matter to him. He's probably not even going to listen to this, but you know, I'm sure he's heard other people say that to him. And at the end of the day, he's going to feel the way he feels and he has the right to do so. As far as this scumbag, whether he was involved or not, what was his name again? Baron. You kind of just nailed it. These guys, they're opportunists, right? They're opportunists. He knew Iquilla. He probably knew the story of Asha and was in jail and thinking, how can I get to her lower facility where the security isn't as extreme and maybe I can plan my escape. And this might've been the rationale. This might've been the plan he came up with. Some of these guys are pretty smart and he had a pretty intricate story

as far as what happened to Asha. I will say this, whether he's telling the truth or not, who am I to say? It doesn't sound like he did, to be honest. But when we were talking about this initially and we were talking about her walking on the side of the road, the lighting conditions, the fog, is it possible that she got hit by a car? Yes. Yes, it is. Absolutely. Now, the person hitting her and clearly doing something with her body still makes them culpable because they could have easily called and said, hey, listen, I'm driving on the highway and this poor little girl came out in front of me. I didn't see her.

And yeah, it's dark. And I don't think anybody, I don't think they would have been charged criminally unless they were driving under the influence. But which is also possible, right? It is. And then that would explain why they did hide her body. But it definitely is a possibility. I don't know it's not a lot more faith in people than than i do i i think that most people i mean like you said they could have been drinking they could have had drugs in the car there could have been a million reasons they could have been

on probation they could have had a criminal record they They maybe thought that this was going to be better for them. But you've caused torture to an entire community and an entire family for 20 years now. Where's your head on it? If you consider the... Because the shed still can happen. The Turner shed can still happen where she dumped some of the... All that can still be plausible where she gets spooked from the truck driver, Jeff, she dumped some things in there cause it's dark and she's eating some candies and some things

fall out. She gets back on the highway and then she's struck by a car. But I mean, do you think it's less likely? I know where my head's at on it. Do you think it's less likely considering that her book bag was found 30 miles away in the woods where it was kind of like protected, but then buried? How does that play into your thought process? So it actually makes more sense if somebody had hit her accidentally and then was trying to hide her and the book bag for it to be preserved because maybe they're feeling guilty at this point. So they're like, we don't want to just burn this girl's stuff like we we killed her and now we're going to just burn her stuff and like everything they may have gone in the book bag seen the family pictures

felt guilty seen this little girl's clothes and just thought you know let's just wrap it in a bag and bury it and whatever happens happens like we wore gloves if it ever gets turned up at least her family will have this stuff back even if they don't have their daughter. Like it almost makes that's just me, though. That's that's how I'm thinking. Like if somebody doesn't want to get caught for like murdering a child, I would think you would destroy the evidence, not bury it in a preserved bag or something that's going to preserve it. But I don't know. It's very tough.

And the fact that it's separate like her body wasn't found there so like they went deliberately like put her body somewhere if she's dead and they put the book bag somewhere completely different which which is only the reason why i think like this was done at a later date after whatever happened to asha this person decided to put it there because of whatever their intentions i don don't know. I just, I feel like if, if, if she was struck by a car, whatever she had with her at that time, if they make the decision that we're going to take this to our grave because we're not going to go to jail for the rest of our lives for a legitimate accident. And we just don't trust the police that I would

get rid of everything. I mean, I'm saying this in the most respectful way I can. I'm getting rid of, I'm getting rid of, of Asha and I'm getting rid of everything that would link me to her. Um, I wouldn't be taking the time to drive around with her backpack just because I'd be too scared that I might get pulled over by the police or they might already be on to me and they could stop me and find it in my trunk. So I would be, I'd want to get rid of that stuff immediately. Or again, I hate to say this, please guys guys, don't come for me on this one.

But I'm just going to keep driving. If I were to do that, I would stop. I would stop. I'd call police. I'd render aid. That's you and I. But if I struck this girl and I saw that she's on the side of the road, I'm going to keep driving. I don't want to touch her.

I don't want to do anything. If I'm a bad person, because anytime I interact with her, now there's a possibility of a transfer of trace evidence. So I'm not going anywhere near her and I'm going to keep driving and pretend like I didn't see anything if I'm a scumbag. Oh, I was just thinking about something too, though. It just occurred to me. So check this out.

Remember, Jeff Rupp was the first trucker who saw her that morning, right? That's right. That's right. And then that other dude, I forget his name because it's not right in front of me, but he saw her a little while later. He put out a call on his APB. There's a person walking on the side of the road. Just so you guys know, don't hit this person. Yeah. Don't hit her. What if one of the truckers heard this and this trucker maybe has a tendency to be in a predator or an abuser? And we know like I'm not I'm not trying to say that all truckers are horrible like serial killers. But if you look historically, right, many times we do see like Otis Toole and people like that, truck drivers, they prowled the highways looking for victims so what if his message reached the ears reached the ears of somebody who did not have the best intentions and was like oh there's a woman or a child walking alone on the road in like the early morning it's

dark nobody else is out well thank you thank you for x marks the spot and I will go and find this person now it just occurred to me like as we were talking about it. I mean, it's plausible. Absolutely. Oh, there's a little girl walking on the side of the road and I'm 10 miles away. I'm going to head that way. It's completely possible. I still lean towards that. I still lean towards this being a predator situation. I'm really hoping for the sake of Asha and her family that this individual, you know, Asha is still alive somewhere, you know, and I'm hoping that's the case. Because the fact that if she was struck by a vehicle to not have any evidence, and again, we don't have to get into the details of what type of evidence could be left behind.

You mentioned a couple of things, broken taillights. Car parts,id marks yeah you know something something yeah some sign of uh yaw marks or something in the road where the person tried to say yaw marks yeah is that what they're called like tire tread marks yeah stuff like that yeah so um the fact that the absent of all that is it still a scenario that we are able to rule out yep of course there's a lot of scenarios we can't rule out. But I think the bag, the backpack being wrapped in this garbage bag and 30 miles away. 30 miles away.

That's not around the corner. That's a little bit of a drive. Someone took some time. Someone took some time and 30 miles is a long distance away from where Asha would have been taken. And the way they described this area where the bag was found, very wild, overgrown. They said jungle-like conditions, you know, snakes popping out. It wasn't meant to be found. It was not meant to be found.

They did not know somebody was going to be building a house out there and there was going to be a driveway being put in there. They thought, let's go, you know, as remote and wild as possible so nobody's going to stumble upon this. You know what I wonder, and they probably will never tell us, it could have been something that was natural to the area, a rock or a pole or something that would distinguish that specific area from an area 10 feet away. Because if you go there to see this item again or to retrieve it for whatever reason, you're not going to want to be there long. You're not going to want your car to be on the side of the highway where someone else could pass by and see your vehicle and your license plate. So they'd want to know exactly where it is if they have to go back.

And I wonder, again, if we had access to those files, if there was anything that would distinguish that place from somewhere else for the person who put it there. And Terry Fleming, he was the one, you know, precision grading. He may not have even seen anything like that because he's just going through this huge ass like truck tearing the ground up. So there may have been something to mark the spot, even if it was a natural landmark. But he will he might not even know because he didn't realize there was anything to look for until he found that book bag a couple of feet underground. A rock formation, twigs, something like that, where it wouldn't stand out to anyone else unless you knew what you were looking for.

Yeah. He might have destroyed that. On accident, obviously, not purposely. On accident, of course. Yes, of course. A 43-year-old man named Danny Ray Johnson was arrested after confessing to the abduction and rape of an 11-year-old girl who'd gotten separated from her mother at a tractor pull event in Cleveland County. So what happened is this guy, Danny Ray Johnson, he allegedly took this young girl into a forested area not far away from the tractor pull. He assaulted her and then he left her there tied to a tree. Luckily, the child was recovered and brought to the hospital

where she did get better. She was treated for minor injuries. I'm sure her mental state was not as treatable because that is horrific. Danny Ray Johnson, the scumbag that he is, he lived in Lawndale. So that's 11 miles north of Shelby, and Shelby was where Asha lived. And Danny's house was located very close to where Asha's book bag had been found. He'd also confessed to an earlier kidnapping and rape of another woman, and deputies had interviewed Danny Ray Johnson the same month the book bag had been found. And even though authorities found no evidence that would connect Johnson to Asha Degree,

they did ask him for DNA and hair samples since the crime that he had been arrested for had been against a young girl right around the same age as Asha, right around the same location. And Johnson willingly did give police access to his DNA. He stated he had nothing to do with Asha's disappearance and he thought maybe he was even in jail at the time that she went missing. So authorities admitted that they had obtained his DNA

for the purposes of elimination, if nothing else. But we know that they probably, like we were talking about earlier, they'd probably have to find Asha first to even have DNA to compare Johnson's to unless they had recovered something off of her book bag or the bag that was wrapped around her book bag. We mentioned that earlier. And I'm sure this individual,

as with others, there's a lot of bad guys around there. So it's unfortunate that this isn't an anomaly. But again, this is their job to go through that tedious process of, regardless of how unlikely it may be, eliminating individuals one by one. But I do think there's something to the idea that whoever put this book bag in the woods, why did they choose this location? Why did they choose this location? I'm sure it's not right next to their house. That would be pretty stupid, although not completely unheard of.

Unless he wants to revisit, right? But if he wants wants to revisit and even if he only lives like five or six miles away but something that he passes by frequently you know that would it would make sense why the person would choose this specific location to bury this backpack because it's an area that they're familiar with maybe not that specific area of the woods but something that they pass by religiously and it wouldn't be difficult for them to hop out of their car at two o'clock in familiar with, maybe not that specific area of the woods, but something that they pass by religiously. And it wouldn't be difficult for them to hop out of their car at two o'clock in the morning and know exactly where they put it. Or maybe they were not from the area and they were on their way out of town and they didn't want to carry it with them. So they drove and they drove

for a while after whatever they did, Dasha. And then they were like, I got to get rid of this. Let me pull over here. But why not? Why take the time? So we can, we're beating a dead horse here, but for me, it's like burn it, throw it in the next body of water that you see, or literally roll down your window and throw it as far in the woods as you can. Why take the time to bury it and not only bury it, but preserve it? I just, it just tells me that they were going to come back for it at some point. That's truly what my heart says. And again, not a psychologist by any means, but that to me suggests this individual intended on coming back for it at some point. I agree with you. It does seem like that, doesn't it? There's so many reasons why you would not take the time to wrap it, bury it. I

mean, if you're driving out of town, I'm taking that thing. I'm hawking it into the next body of water I see along the side of the road. I'm not saying you're not going to catch my truck parked over there with my hazards on for any period of time, because even while you're in the woods, just just digging, someone could drive by, see your plate and just report it down the road saying, hey, I don't know if this means anything. It just you're running a risk that it's unnecessary unless it means something to you to make sure you bury it in a way that no one will find it unless you want to find it. I think you're right, because I was even thinking maybe his DNA was on it or his fingerprints were on it.

So he didn't want to just toss it out the window. But then why not just destroy it if you think your DNA or fingerprints are on it? Yeah, it's there seems to be only one logical reason why it would be buried like that and wrapped to, like you said, keep moisture and water out. They wanted to go back and look at it. We bury, you know, at least I do. You know, I buried my hamster in the backyard for my daughters when when when she passed away. You know, I could have just buried it in the ground and not really when when when she passed away you know i could have

just buried it in the ground and not really taking the time to do anything with it but i wanted to protect it from the elements from animals from all these different things so you take that time to preserve it by putting in a box wrapping some type of plastic around it to keep water from getting into it you want to preserve whatever's inside of there sounds like what this person did with that backpack you know could be wrong it could just be just a weirdo um but if you're so concerned about this backpack maybe coming back and connecting to you down the road why would you make the effort to to protect it in any way you're right we don't know but i mean just that's the only thing that makes sense to me it makes sense and it's it adds another layer of like creepiness to it,

right? Oh yeah. No. Well, I mean, think about it. Anyone who's abducting children is obviously, you know,

there's only one place where they should go and there's only a few things that should happen to them. And I'm all for all of them. The most painful, the most, um, the better, but,

um, clearly the person who would ever commit a crime like this, um, the, the reason they do things are unexplainable to people like 99 point, 100% of our viewers, I hope. They're just something that's not, it's not something that we can easily process because it's not something a human should even think about or consider. Also, it almost seems like this may not have been their first rodeo, right? Like somebody who's going to orchestrate this disappearance where it literally seems like this girl vanished into thin air after the shed and then have the forethought to say,

I want to revisit this crime. I want to revisit what I did to her. So I'm going to make sure to preserve what's left of her so that I can come back and touch it and smell it and look at it and relive this in my mind. Maybe not the first time they've done this. And that would even give more credence to the idea that that was a keepsake. Yes. That was a keepsake. So yeah, no, it's possible it definitely wasn't their first time. Well, before we keep going, we have a little bit more to talk about, but let's have our last ad break and then we'll be back and wrap up. Okay, we're back. So in November of 2004, authorities followed a tip that brought them to the corner of Shelby and Rube Spangler Roads near Lawndale,

North Carolina. A detective from the Cleveland County Sheriff's Office had received a tip that pointed them to this area, but authorities, of course, would not comment further on what the actual tip was. This area was about six miles away from the home of Asha Degree. The police started digging behind an abandoned trailer while the medical examiner stood by. So obviously, whatever this tip was, it was like, we think she might be buried here or they wouldn't have brought like an Emmy, I think. Because obviously whoever sent this tip and said that they believed she was there. After four days of digging and finding nothing, they packed up and went home. Dan Crawford, so remember

Dan Crawford used to be the Cleveland County Sheriff's Office. Well, he was the sheriff. He was the sheriff when Asha went missing. Then he ran for re-election. He didn't win, so he was no longer the sheriff when this search happened in 2004. So he praised the investigators for following this tip, but he told reporters that it didn't really make sense to him that Asha's body would be buried so close to the location from which she had gone missing because her attacker would have to risk driving with her belongings after burying her to the much further location where her book bag would later be found. Crawford also gave his opinion that it was unlikely that a sex offender was involved because they wouldn't typically be out prowling for a victim that early in the morning. I don't know how I feel about this. I mean, I get it. So like it's, you know, 3.30 in the morning, 4.15 in the morning. If you're a pedophile and a sex predator, you don't expect that a nine-year-old girl is going to be wandering around on the road, on the highway at that time of the morning. But however, I don't think that this was planned. I think that whoever took her took a chance,

saw an opportunity, grabbed her. And it wouldn't make sense that it was just a normal person who didn't have this affinity for children who didn't have like this affinity for children or didn't have some sort of like sick twisted pull towards children or, you know, young people. So I don't know how I feel about that. What do you think? There's a couple of things you can take away from this. First off, you know, yes, he's right there. You know, this Asha was a victim of opportunity. It probably wasn't planned. But to what you said earlier, unless the sex offender has a job and that job happens to be driving early in the morning because they're a truck driver or something like that, where they're a sex offender during the night hours, but their day job, so to speak, is to drive long

distances where they can find victims of opportunity and carry out their conduct without being linked to it. So yeah, maybe, but maybe that's why this person hasn't been caught yet. The other thing that I don't want to get completely away from, although with what we've found so far doesn't suggest this, we can't 1000% rule out the possibility that Asha could have been groomed. I know there doesn't appear to be evidence of this or nothing at least released to us that, you know, she was groomed and convinced or coerced to leave her home because there was something that she was going towards that was enticing to her. And that could be a sex offender who had been kind of grooming her to set this up. And I'm not talking about a sex offender that may be online or something like that, because it appears to be that the amount of exposure Asha and her brother had to computers

and phones was limited. But you know, listen, I was reading Reddit. I'm a Reddit person now. I'm going to be honest with you. I was reading Twitter. I was reading some different articles. You know, I haven't ruled out anyone except really the immediate family members. I'm not ruling out teachers. I'm not ruling out coaches. I'm not ruling out fans of Asha's who are watching her at our basketball games that she might have known and trusted. I'm not ruling out any of them. I agree. Sorry. I agree.

I'm not. And so one of them could have lured her out of her house and had this whole thing orchestrated. The only thing I do agree with him on is that whoever did this, it does appear that it happened a good distance away from her house based on the Turner shed and all that stuff. So I would say that I don't think the person would come back towards Asha's residence to dispose of the body because it's too much of a risk. But that's about where I agree with him. I still think there's a lot of plausible scenarios, some of which Asha's offender was someone she knew or the sex offender was someone who just happened to be driving on the highway that morning.

And she could have met somebody online, right? Because yeah, she didn't have a computer or internet access at her home, but she probably did at school. This was 2001. Okay. I was in school. Well, not in 2001, but right before that, I would have been like a junior in high school. And it wasn't to the point where schools and teachers and stuff had realized that you could get into trouble as a kid online because the internet was still kind of new and burgeoning and you could pretty much do anything. You pretty much do anything. And we did.

OK, we did on the computers at school. And a lot of her family members lived very close to her on the same street. She was just at her cousin's house for a sleepover a couple nights before she went missing. They were watching TV, dancing, having fun. She could have been using the computer at her cousin's house or her grandmother's house. We don't know what kind of internet access she had. I'm sure the police have looked into that, but it's not as if she would have had no ability to get on the internet at all, especially when all her friends probably were. And also, I mean, if she was doing something that she didn't want people to know about, she would take some steps to make sure that it wasn't linked back to her.

So, you know, I still think that's a very unlikely scenario. It's possible, but it's very unlikely. But I'm just saying, you know, for me, you know, if we found out five years from now that this happened to be someone she knew, like I said, like a coach or a teacher or someone who came to her basketball games, I wouldn't be surprised in the least, not at all. Because she did appear, if those, all the other clothes, we kind of, we didn't dive into it too much. It appeared that she had been, she had packed for a few days. This wasn't just, you know, she had a couple of pairs of clothing, the basketball outfit, which would have been probably more for the night when she had practice. So she was preparing to be gone for a little bit.

And where was she planning on staying? How is she going to eat? Where was she going to sleep? Did she have these things worked out before she left? Did she think she had something lined up? What was she planning on doing? Sleeping in the woods? So I think there's something to be said about the items that were found in the bag

that some could draw a connection to and say, she felt like she had a place where she was going to be able to lay her head at night and feel safe. Yes. And get this right. The items she packed, the clothing items, I think they're telling if she went missing early in the morning on Valentine's Day, she had packed her favorite jeans with a red stripe on the side. She packed a long sleeve shirt and a red vest. Was she planning to go to some sort of Valentine's Day party? Was she told that they were going to go to some sort of Valentine's Day party? Black shoes, they weren't sneakers. They were like sort of dressier shoes. What was this girl told that she packed these specific items? That's why this case is so interesting, right? And that's why it hasn't been solved because, you know, I'm sure the police have their theories, but there's probably not too many of those theories that they've been able to say definitively. Nope, not possible anymore because of this exculpatory evidence that we have. So because there's so many scenarios that are still in play, they got to explore every tip they get because they there's still a lot of things that have gone unanswered at this point. Right. And former Sheriff Dan Crawford, he believed that whoever had taken Asha had done so in a moment of opportunity, saying, quote, and once they did whatever they did to her, they knew they couldn't let her go. Once they crossed that barrier, they can't back up.

Then fear sets in and they don't know what to do, end quote. So it does seem to be the standard narrative from law enforcement that Asha left the house of her own free will, that she wasn't really lured out. And while she was out there, that's when she ran into foul play. But it is very possible. Yeah, but it is also very possible, like you said, that somebody was grooming her and all of these other unknowns, the backpack and the picture and the shed and the items she had. And it seemed that she knew where she was going. Like that one trucker said, she seemed to walk like she had a goal in mind, like she had a place. Yeah, that does show that this wasn't just her running away or leaving and just going to walk until what?

Like you said, she felt she had someplace to go, like a place to lay her head at night. I wonder if there's any correlation between the fact that it was February 14th, which also happens to be her parents' anniversary. Was she going out early to surprise them? I don't know. She was wearing red. I don't know. I don't think so because she had packed clothes

and she'd packed a few sets of clothes like she was going to be away. Away for a little bit. Yeah. For a couple of days. But I do have my own theory, which we'll get into. Yes. Next part, which does have something to do with the February 14th date.

OK, well, hold off. Yeah. Well, after this, you know, the case went very cold for an extended period of time until February 9th of 2015, when the FBI announced that they were re-examining the circumstances of Asha's disappearance. A $25,000 reward was offered for information that led to the discovery of Asha or the arrest of her abductor, and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children released an age progression photo of Asha showing what she would look like as a 24-year-old woman. On February 14th, the 15th anniversary of Asha's disappearance, her family walked from their home

to Highway 18, the spot where she had been seen by Jeff Rupp. It's the same thing that they did every year, the same thing they do every year to remember her and to keep her memory alive. Asha's mother told the media to pray for them because they still believed that Asha was out there somewhere, alive, and they had not given up on her. On May 15, 2016, the FBI and Cleveland County Sheriff's Office announced that they had received a new tip. Someone matching Asha's description had been seen getting into a dark green car around the area she was last seen on the day that she was last seen. Once again, she goes missing in 2000. They talk about this tip in 2016.

I'm not sure why it took so long. And this was once again, like, you know, I do like to go on Reddit myself. And there's people on Reddit saying, like, don't tell me that this tip came in like 16 years later. Like somebody remembered this little girl getting into this exact car on this exact date at this exact time 16 years later. Like y'all probably had this tip the whole time and you just ran across it when you reexamined the case and went through the old case files. And that's a problem in my opinion. Yeah. No, it's I could see where people are coming from. I could see where people are coming from that you would say, something doesn't seem right here, but they did put it out. And I wonder if-

16 years later. If they did get it 16 years later, I'm not going to dispute what you're saying, but I'm just saying we're assuming that they did get it 15, 16 years ago and just waited to this day to put it out. No, I don't. I don't think that's what I'm not trying to be mean to you. I don't want anybody to. Sorry, Derek. Derek, may I please speak? Derek, I'm raising my hand. May I please speak to you? You may. Thank you so much, sir. You're welcome. Okay. So what we think happened, me and the Reddit crew, we think that this tip came in shortly after she went missing but it was overlooked so in 2015 the fbi is like okay we're re-examining this case we're bringing

in a different set of people we're gonna go through all of the tips we're gonna go through all the old evidence so when they're going through all the old evidence and all the old tips they find it they find a witness statement yeah and they, hey, we've never heard of this before. This was never released. That's the issue that we're talking about. And like you said, it could have a lot to do with somebody gets promoted or somebody gets fired or somebody gets moved to a different department, right? You're nailing it.

But still. I think the idea that that's what happened is a real likelihood. And I think based on the detail of the witness account gives more credence to what you guys are saying like rust on the wheel you're going to get to all the description yeah exactly very specific i think very specific considering it was 16 years later when this person recalled this so i think there's truth to it and i and i and i know for a fact what you're describing as i said earlier when there's a change of guard where someone gets promoted and that detective's folder who, you know, was really messy and how he, you know, kept his reports or whatever, they go through John's stuff and John's got papers all over the

place. And then someone who's maybe a little bit more organized, a newer detective decides to digitize all this and put it into a PDF. And then now as everyone's re-examining it and looking at it some for the first time they're reading these witness accounts and saying hey did anyone ever follow up on this person right here this girl tammy came out and said this no that's the first time i'm here hey call crawford call some of the guys that were working it back then ask him if they know anything about this this has actually happened to me by the way and then we call the old timers and they're like oh no yeah that. Yeah, that's that's new for me. And then they're like, whose tip was that?

And they're like, Todd. And they're like, oh, Todd, his desk was always a mess. But it's like, come on, man, the missing girl. Not to get sidetracked, but Judy Rawlings, the police department was nice enough to give me some of their files. And I went through all these recordings that they had. They had finally digitized them and i found a recording where a prison inmate uh implicated one of our main suspects in uh in the murder of judy rawlings and i on camera i'm breaking homicide bring the captain in who was in charge at the time i play the tape for him and he's like i've never heard that tape before and he was pissed and this

was on like so it it happens at himself pissed pissed no yes we won't go there because this isn't about him but more pissed at the detective who was on the tape because according to him this was never relayed to him you know it was never filed it was something there's a lot more to this but he was definitely he was not happy and the scene was super awkward i remember our producers being like we're gonna stand in the back of the room but uh i played it for him i go i actually swore i you know and they just bleeped it out i was like this is a huge you know f up and you know he was like i don't disagree with you so to everything you you just said, I think that's a very likely scenario that this was uncovered by an agent or someone who just took on the case and said, they dropped the ball here.

And even if they didn't believe it was something that was relevant, that's not their call to make. They should have at least put it out. So we're going to put it out now. Yeah. I think that it's probably a lot more common than most people want to even think about. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. So here's the description of the car.

The car was described as being an early 1970s Lincoln Mark IV or a Ford Thunderbird with rust around the wheel wells. Alan Norman, who was the sheriff in 2016, he said, quote, this vehicle right now is considered a vehicle of interest, and it was occupied two times on the day of her disappearance, end quote. Sheriff Norman also said that the new tip had been generated after a meeting of the Joint Task Force that met regularly to discuss Asha's case. So yeah, exactly what we said. They got together the Joint Task Force, they started going through the stuff, and they're like, oh, what's this. They got together the joint task force. They started going through the stuff and they're like, oh, what's this on the post-it note? Yeah. So the sheriff

said that this should show people that the case was being worked on regularly and would continue to be worked on until there was closure for Asha's family and community. And the FBI spokesperson said, quote, the eyewitness we've done many interviews with and we've done our own investigative steps with that information, end quote. So some online believe that when the sheriff said the car was occupied two times the day that Asha went missing, he meant that there was two people in the car. Because apparently cops will say, you know, this vehicle is occupied X number of times. That's like police vernacular for the number of persons in the vehicle. Like, do you know what I'm talking about? Is this a thing?

Oh, yeah. That's how I stop a car. 19 to 311 going to be stopped on Raleigh and Lake vehicle one, you know, registration plate so-and-so occupied two times. Now, if I say over the thing, occupied four times, usually that's indication to another officer to start heading that way to back up because now it's four against one. So do you think that that's what Sheriff Norman meant when he said it was occupied two times that day, that there was two people in there? One million percent. As you were reading it, I was like, oh, so there's two people in the car. So clearly this witness said there was a

driver and there was a passenger. Somebody in the passenger, Yeah. Yep. Or whether that passenger was in the passenger seat in the front or in the back, but there was definitely two identified individuals in that vehicle. Yes. So we may be dealing with more than one offender at this point. Absolutely. If this vehicle is in fact, if everything's credible and yeah, that's a real strong possibility. Well, so it would be another three years after this car tip got revealed before law enforcement released pictures of the concert tee and the Dr. Seuss book. And then the 18th anniversary of Asha's disappearance came and went with nothing more substantial to go on.

Harold, Aquila and O'Brien were truly suffering by this point. They almost didn't make their annual walk in memory of Asha because Aquila felt it wouldn't accomplish anything. You know, she's feeling hopeless at this point. I don't blame her. But then O'Brien, who, you know, he's the real MVP. I love O'Brien, man. I got to tell you. I don't know him, but I love him. And I'm sending like all my thoughts to him. I think he's just the sweetest kid. But he reminded her that the reason they kept going out there, rain or shine, snow or sleet, every year was to remind people of what had happened to Asha. O'Brien told the Gaston Gazette, quote, I know where my mom was

coming from, but it felt really weird not to walk, end quote. Almost two decades after seeing his sister for the last time, O'Brien also wondered if he would even recognize her if she passed him on the street. He wondered if he would even recognize her voice if she spoke to him or her laugh if he was like on a crowded bus with her. It's devastating. Like, you know, you said earlier, O'Brien shouldn't feel like it's his fault, but he's going to feel some sort of responsibility anyways. He was her protector. He was like her little hero. He held her hand and walked her to class every morning. He walked her to the school bus. They slept in the same room. When she woke up with nightmares, he comforted her. It's so devastating. Very, very sad. And even though so

much time had passed, the Degree family still held hope that Asha was alive. And Aquila sent a message to her daughter saying, quote, I don't know why you left, but it doesn't matter. We just want you to come home, end quote. Two investigators who were active on Asha's case, they went to Quantico. They met with agents in the FBI's Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit. And together, they apparently made this psychological profile of who Asha's abductor could have been like personality wise. But once again, this report was never made available to the public. Yeah. The report not being made to the public. I know where you stand on these things and I could see them using it as information to maybe

narrow down their suspect pool, their person of interest pool that they probably established over the years. But I also think there could be something that might be of value to the public. And even if they don't know anything about Asha's case, but to be aware that this individual could be out there in their community and to maybe be on the lookout for some of the tendencies they might display that might seem normal to you until you read something like this. You don't want to overreact. You don't want people carrying out street justice just because this person matches two or three things in this 15 page report or whatever it is. But I do think there's some value in informing the public of this person, especially in that immediate area, so that they can be vigilant and be on the lookout for someone who may display some of the tendencies associated with a person who would fit this

profile. Yeah. I just don't understand what the benefit of withholding any information 20 years into this, if there's not been a trace of of her I don't see the benefit of withholding really any information because at that point like you don't what you can do um if you are going to assume that like some grown person or persons did this you know maybe in their late 20s 30s 40s 50s even 20 years has gone by you're running out of time here like you know you had you had to trust the public that they're not going to go and be some vigilante and just start go attacking people who match the psychological profile. That's less likely than them actually using the information to protect themselves and be vigilant. But at this point, you haven't been able to accomplish this, maybe you can put this information out to people who

can do something at 20 years in. And I do want to say, if this was your daughter who was missing for 20 years and all of this information is being withheld from the public, and I'm not asking with any preconceived notion of what your answer is, but would you want some of these things to be made public so that you could have more eyes on it and you could have more brains working on it? Especially given like the what the true crime community looks like in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021. You've got armchair detectives, which is a derogatory term that's used sometimes. But these people are out there solving crimes, bringing people home, like bringing closure. They're out there doing that.

So if you can't do it for 20 years as the police department, not saying that they didn't try to do everything we could, a pat on the back. Good for you guys. But now it's time to bring in like some help and widen the scope. What do you think? You ready for this? I agree with you. It's a moment. I have shown this publicly in the in the cases that i have selected

i do think there comes a point especially when you start in 20 25 30 years where the traditional course of action where everything's kind of kept close to the vest goes out the window. And I think you laid it out perfectly there. This is not saying the agents didn't do everything they could. It's not saying they didn't try their hardest, but whatever they've done, it hasn't worked. And for me at this point, I think it's an opportunity where you release almost everything and allow some type of crowd solve some type of group think because clearly whatever has been done for the last 20 years has not worked. And at that point, you're waiting for some miracle. You're waiting for some break in the case, a tip or some new advancement in technology. The only reason I would say you wouldn't release it is if they had a profile

or something close to DNA profile for this person, and they were literally just waiting for DNA and they don't want that. They don't want to tip off that suspect. That would be the reason why they're not releasing it. So for everyone out there, even though I agree with you, the reason they are not releasing everything is because the person who did this or the people who did this, by you putting everything out there, you're also showing your cards to them. That's really the only reason guys. It doesn't have to

be more difficult than that. It doesn't have to be more deep than that. It's just as simple as, yes, if they could market where it would only go out to the people who genuinely want to help, I think most cases they would, but the people who did this or even other individuals who might want to carry out an act like this in the future, they can use this information as intelligence to not only see how police operate, but for more, the more specific, this case, the suspect and offender can see what they have, what they know and what they don't know. But I've proven in the past, I do think there comes a point where if you haven't solved it yet, you kind of got to roll that dice because I'm

pretty confident in saying that the suspect knows at this point, you don't got them yet. That's where I'm in at it, but we do agree. So do you think then that they have a suspect? Because I mean, it's 2021, DNA is evolved. I don't. Okay. I don't think they know who did it. I don't think they know who did it. I don't think they know a ton. I think they know a lot about what happened that day. They got a lot of statements. They probably have identified a hundred different people who were on that road at that time. They have their names, dates, date of birth, addresses, social securities, but I don't think they know what happened to Asha. If they did, I think they'd be kind of

honing in on the scope of the possibilities. And it really just seems like they're looking for something that might point them in the right direction. So then there's really no reason they shouldn't be releasing more other than the fact that by them releasing everything the suspect who's out there or suspects will absolutely be reading it as well if they're even like still alive alive if they're if they're still alive which we hope they are because i'd want to find them um unless they died in a very painful way but if they're still alive that's the only thing that would be such a tough pill to swallow is for them to be sitting back and either like, you know, relishing in the fact that like you, they got away with it or knowing how close you were to catching them or not catching them.

That's the one element of it that kind of sucks, but I do think it's risk worth reward. You got to put the ego aside and I've done it with other cases. I've said it publicly 20, 30 years in, although you and I don't agree on like five or 10 year old cases. I think those are still relatively new in this, in the context of cold cases, 20, 30 years. It's a long time. You've had your time and it's time to, for the sake of the family, allow them to know everything you have as well.

And so that's, that's why I do agree with you. And I know a lot of law enforcement officers don't agree with me on that, but that's just my stance on it. And as a human being, I have the right to have an opinion. And I do believe there is a point where when you've exhausted all options, it's time to reach out to unconventional avenues. And that would be crowdsourcing and using people like Web Sleuth and these armchair detectives and allowing them to dive into the details.

And you'd be surprised at what they can find. Seriously, we've seen it happen. Yeah, we have. Podcasters have solved cases. No investigative experience solving cases. So I completely agree with you. I know that was a shock, but I do. My ego won't let me feel that it was a shock. I just feel like you finally come around.

Okay. All right. All right. Well, whatever. Enjoy your moment. I'm going to. I'm relishing in it. Because I mean, at this point, right, in the timeline, we're in November of 2020. It's been legitimately 20 years as of a year ago and in November of 2020. So this is right before COVID hits, right? A 53-year-old convicted pedophile named Marcus Mellon, he wrote a letter to the star claiming he had information about Asha that he wanted to pass on to the FBI. The letter said, quote, Asha Degree has been missing for over 20 years. About four months ago, I had found out her whereabouts and what happened to her. She was killed and then took and buried. I do know how and what town she is in. I hope you get this letter

and come see me. It's on the up and up, end quote. So Marcus Mellon was serving 14 years for sex crimes against children that he'd committed in 2014 in Cleveland County. But when he wrote this letter in late 2020, the Alexander Correctional Institute, where he was being held, they experienced like this big COVID outbreak right after. And law enforcement announced that they'd gotten the tip and they would investigate it when the pandemic was under control. So it's actually not right before the pandemic. I was wrong because November of 2019 would have been right before the pandemic. This was like towards the end of 2020. So my bad. I'm so sorry. They get a huge COVID outbreak. The police can't go in and interview him about this because they're on lockdown. But several months later, after an

investigation into Mellon's claims, including interviews with Mellon and another inmate, police discovered that the stories given by these two individuals were second and third hand, and they'd not led to any new information. Sheriff Norman told the Shelby Star that tips from inside jails and prisons are tricky because they can sometimes come with ulterior motives, such as trying to get a plea for other crimes. However, they are still taken seriously by law enforcement and followed up on. Norman said, quote, you take all information received extremely seriously and we run it to the very end, regardless of who provides that information, end quote. Yeah, glad you and I talked about this when we were going back and forth. And I had said that, you know,

even though COVID was going on, they were going to get around to it and it looks like they did. And it doesn't appear that they have much faith in it. And again, it's second, third hand information. It probably was a lot more vague than he had kind of portrayed to the star. That's what I was thinking. He was like, I know how and I know where. Yeah. But you don't.

Yeah, exactly. And so it always, when you get them in person. He was like, I know how and I know where. Yeah. But you don't. Yeah, exactly. And so it always, when you get them in person, you're like, okay, what do you got? And it's like, well, you know, it's not exact information, but I know they were, I know they're in the state. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, how do you know? She's in North Carolina, guys. Yes, exactly.

Okay. So I'm sure it does sound like he's not ruling it out completely, maybe for the sake of who might be listening to what he has to say, you know, the potential suspect. But it doesn't sound like it revealed anything that was substantial. Well, this is pretty much brought us up to date with evidence and timelines. But in the third and final part of this series, we will discuss theories. Series and theories rhymes. I just figured that out as I said that sentence. So we're going to discuss theories in the next episode. And there's a lot of them, including popular theories, theories put forth by law enforcement, online

web sleuths. I mean, they have a lot. And we're not going to talk about the theories that seem completely out there, but there's so many theories that are sort of laid out in a way where you didn't think about it before, but as you're reading it, you're like, oh, yeah, I can see how that would happen. And like I said, I have my own personal theory that I've never heard discussed anywhere else that it kind of occurred to me just from one sentence in one article that I read. And I've never seen this information printed in really any other article. It was just one article that I read. And I've never seen this information printed really in any other article. It was just one article I read and it got me thinking and I kind of formulated a potential theory. And we'll talk about that next time. Do you have any closing thoughts before we

leave? I do have a few closing thoughts. I wanted, because I haven't said it in a few weeks, I want to thank everyone for the speak pipes. I still listen to every single one. I forward them to Stephanie. I hear some of the ones you guys were, it's kind of a funny story, but obviously you guys got some great accents. And because I said it, Stephanie said it, now all you guys are calling in from all over the world with these really cool accents. I'm not going to say this person's name. We actually had one the other day. I don't know if you had a chance to listen to it yet, but she literally was like, Hey, I'm on the toilet right now. But I just wanted to say I love you. Did her name start with an A?

I believe so. Yeah, I know. She's like, I'm on the toilet right now. It's all echoey. I'm like, that's different. That's different. Oh my God, I laughed so hard and I needed that laugh that day. So thank you.

She was like, hey. Yeah. She was like, hey. She was all excited about it. But no, I just want to say I appreciate it because you guys have given us a lot of positive comments and case suggestions. And it's cool to put some voices with some of our listeners and our viewers. So I know we haven't been playing them. We have so much going on in these cases.

We really want to focus on the case, but do know we are listening to them and we appreciate them. And it just means a lot. And I wanted to acknowledge that because I know we haven't in the last few months, we've been growing exponentially and we're trying to perfect this channel so that you're getting the most out of it. And just know that the speak pipes have not gone unnoticed. We still listen to every single one. We've been growing exponentially and that is due to you guys. Really? It is. We sit here, we're doing the same thing, whether two people are listening or 200,000, but the reason we're growing is because of you guys and your love and support is absolutely invaluable.

We appreciate it so, so much, so much. One final thing, Stephanie doesn't know I'm going to say this, but I'm going to say it. And I didn't ask for permission here because I don't have to, right? But I want to say it anyways, because I think it needs to be said, you know, we read the comments and we read it because we want constructive criticism. We want to grow the channel. There's a lot of comments that you guys and suggestions you guys have made that we've implemented. And we use it also for feedback as far as our sound quality, all this stuff. So obviously I saw a lot of the comments that were coming in after our little debate last episode. And I'm bringing it up because, again, Stephanie's not asking me to, but I think I should bring it up because it involves me.

Understand this. Stephanie and I have a great relationship. And she allows me to speak my mind. I allow her to speak hers. We've argued off camera. We're good friends. It's going to happen. We're just exposed to speak hers. We've argued off camera. We're good friends. It's going to happen. We're just exposed to you guys. And I can promise you, I'm going to offend her at some point.

She may offend me, even though I wasn't offended by her comments. And just understand, you guys can voice your opinion, but it's more for yourself because we have a good relationship. And I would just say, keep it on the case because ultimately that's what we're here for. We want to bring exposure to these people, to their families, and to allow you guys to take something from it so you can better protect yourself and the people you care about. So I didn't want to not acknowledge it because my name's being thrown around a lot and Stephanie didn't ask me to do this. Actually, I could tell she's a little embarrassed that I probably am, but, but Stephanie is

my friend. We have a good relationship and I was not offended by it for anybody who thinks I was. There was a couple of people said it. I have thicker skin than that. I've heard a lot worse. I'm sure she's heard a lot worse and we're cool. So don't worry about us. Focus on the cases. Keep the conversation in the comments about these cases because I think when we start talking about things that really don't matter, we're losing sight of why we're here. So that's all I wanted to say on it. And I apologize. Don't come for me, Stephanie. Yeah, I am a little embarrassed. But yeah, I felt a little misrepresented because it was just a joke when I said you weren't raised right. It was like a joke.

It was clearly a joke. I felt bad. I felt bad. And I didn't want to go off in the comments. I know you put up a thing. And Stephanie does care about you guys. She loves you guys. You're like her family. She always talks about her supporters and all the, how she grew up in this, in this YouTube game. And there's a lot of you there that she really considers like family. So although she may not want to admit it, she does value what you guys think. And I want you to know that it definitely was misrepresented a lot of ways because we talk to each other a certain way and we're genuine with you guys on camera. We don't bullshit you guys and put on these different hats when the cameras go on.

So what you're seeing is a lot of how we talk to each other, sometimes even worse when the camera's not on. That's just how we are. We have like that brother sister relationship where there's really no, it's happened very fast, I think, which is uncomfortable for some people, but we're just, we're close. So that's all I wanted to say just to kind of put my two cents in. But I would just say overall, let's keep it focused on what matters. And that's these victims and their families.

Yeah. We're rock solid. And I would never, I would never say anything like that. Like mean like that. Oh my God. I felt, I felt bad. I was like, oh my God, I can't believe people think I would say that like that like mean like that oh my god i felt i felt bad i was like oh my god i can't believe people think i would say that like in a real way like i'm not like i know i'm a bitch but i'm not like a mean person you know so and i was all good i was like

you should hear some of the things he says to me when the cameras are not we we battle i mean listen that's part but it's fun that's part of a real it's a real relationship you guys are seeing here it's not it's not fake so um that was really it but you can you can definitely take us out i think i covered all that uh all always crime weekly merch positive note yeah over there crime weekly yeah go over it i know we have new merch coming out very very soon i'm so excited and that's going to be with a different company that has better international shipping we heard you guys we actually we actually one of the drawings that we received from one of you guys, we went back to her, we paid her to make the illustrations more specific because we really wanted to dive

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