Crime Weekly - S1 Ep43: The Murder of Laci Peterson: The Motive (Part 4)

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop It was December 24th, 2002, Christmas Eve morning, and in Modesto California, where Laci Peterson lived with her husband Scott, it was a cool, foggy, northern California morning. The young, attractive couple woke up that morning, each with their own plans in mind. Laci had some last minute items to pick up for Christmas dinner at her parents home later, and she also wanted to take her golden retriever McKenzie for a walk. Her husband Scott had plans to go fishing at Berkeley Marina, about an hour and a half away from the couples home. Scott left the house around 9:30 in the morning, and did not return until 4:30 that evening. When he got home, his wife was not there, and she wasn’t answering his calls. He normally would not have been so concerned, but Laci was eight months pregnant with their first child, a son who they had named Connor. Over the course of the next few months, a massive search and investigation took place for Laci, and as Connor’s due date came and went, the need to find mother and child became more urgent, until April 13th, 2003, when the bodies of Laci and her son were found washed up on the shore of San Francisco Bay.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're jumping into, what is this, the third? Third part? Fourth? Fourth part. Fourth part? Are you sure? I am positive. Okay. Third part was Christmas Eve. But it's a good point, right? If you haven't listened to the

first three parts, you probably don't want to start this one. So the first part was kind of the overview, right? The second part was Amber Frye. Third part was Christmas Eve, where it was more like starting to get into the details of the day. Yeah. The day leading up to it and the day of. Yeah. Okay. So we wanted to talk to you really quickly about our shirts and we want to talk about the pineapple. We want to talk about the undercover pineapple because we know not everybody's a day oneer. Not everybody's been here with us since the beginning. So you probably missed the joke. But right now, Derek is wearing his Crime Weekly shirt. It's the white t-shirt. I am wearing my Crime Weekly baseball tee, which I love. It's super soft. I love the sleeve length. Like I love everything about it. But we had so

many people asking us about the pineapple design. So we couldn't even really remember completely where it started from. Well, I couldn't, but Derek did. But basically one day in one of our earlier YouTube videos, we were asking people to put a word. Oh, I remember now because they were going to win your book, right? That's right. The undercover edge, right? Yep. Okay. So Derek said, let's have a phrase that they can use to be entered into the drawing. And he said, undercover something. Just undercover.

Yeah. But that was boring for me. So I threw in the pineapple. I said, undercover pineapple. And he was like, whatever, undercover pineapple. And then that's what it was. And then it became this running joke where afterwards people were like, oh, do you know pineapples mean swingers? Which isn't necessarily true. If you see like a pineapple on like somebody's door or mailbox, that means there's a swinging party there. But regular pineapples usually mean what I say, hospitality and kindness. Right. And I thought it was an upside down pineapple. Well, I haven't looked too deep into it, but it's like usually if you see someone walking around like a store, like a shopping center or whatever, and they have an upside down pineapple in their car, it's like actually like a calling card to let everyone know that they're swingers. But listen, we, we, we know that we have embraced it. And the reason we're talking about it is not because it's anything bad, but a lot of people have DM dust and a lot of people have messaged us on a crime weekly leak, even in the comments where they're like, just joining the channel, whether it's the audio

version or the video version. And they're like, what is this undercover pineapple? You guys are selling it. People are commenting the phrase. What's the deal? Are they're like what is this undercover pineapple you guys are selling it people are commenting the phrase what's the deal are you guys like swingers like what's going on so we won't keep addressing it it's kind of i feel like i feel like most of those comments they're just messing with us though because there's no way that like you you just see like this benign pineapple and immediately think swinger pineapples are good for lots of things. Frozen drinks, snacks, smoothies, a delicious fruit that comes from warm climates. And you know what? When you come to Crime Weekly, we are hospitable and you're welcome here. And we're all part of a big community. So we're just going to go with the undercover pineapple thing because it's stuck. And now it's funny. But no, we're not

swingers. But if we were were it'd be none of your business and and now and now we're embracing it so much you can buy the t-shirt so we're stuck we're stuck we're stuck with it now i love the pineapple design i think it's so cute it's really cool yeah so that's the that's for anybody who doesn't know that's just the backstory please share it with others if you see it in the comment section especially on youtube by all means weigh in on us let it let them know what it means because a lot of people are new, which is a good thing, right? Like new people are coming in, just finding us and not familiar with the backstory. So we're going to have that happen, which is definitely, we're not complaining.

No, we love it. So yeah, you guys who are here since day one, get in the comments and let people know if they ask, but yeah, the undercover pineapple thing is here to stay. So we have so many pineapple things now. There's no choice. And technically, if you're listening and watching now, you are also an undercover pineapple. So welcome. You sure are. And if you're a swinger too, all the power to you. So let's start on the episode because we have a lot to cover today. Yes. Yes, we do. All right.

So where do we leave off? Do you remember? I don't know if it was the last thing we talked about altogether, but was McKenzie, the golden retriever, because I was really fascinated with that timeline. We've had people comment on that episode since as far as there's been some documentaries out there that have said there was a timestamp for the mailman at 1045. I talked to you about it. So I think that was the big, we covered a lot as it was over two hours after the edit. And that was the last big thing I remember. They were watching that A&E docu-series. Right. That was the person that DM'd

me. Yep. Which was, I mean, mainly fabricated. I mean, there's so many things said in that series that just were unequivocally not true. So I looked everywhere to see if Russell Graybill, that was the mailman, if he had delivered a package and it was timestamped. I couldn't find that anywhere, not anything verified. And I looked through court transcripts. I mean, I spent way too much time trying to verify this fact, I guess, from the stupid A&E docuseries, which this is not the thing I would watch if you're looking for factual information. It's mainly, you know, entertainment purposes. And I think I said to Derek, like, you know, at this point, Scott was convicted.

He went to prison. So these, you know, filmmakers, these people in the media, they felt at that point they could say whatever the hell they wanted about him, honestly. Because what's he going to do, sue them? You know, he's been convicted of this crime. So at this point, they can make all the outlandish and scandalous claims that they won. There's nothing that can happen. So, yeah, I just wouldn't take that that series as as fact or truth. You know, watch it if you want to be entertained.

But I personally don't think it was any good. And for all of you that are wondering, we don't mind saying it. I was really harping on the fact that the neighbor had said she was there around 10.15, 10.20, and then the UPS guy, not the UPS, the USPS guy was saying, hey, I went there between, what was it, 10.20 and 10.50? I went there, 1030 and 1050, and the gate was open and the dog was not barking. And defense attorneys were essentially trying to say that that shows after the neighbor put the dog back there, Lacey must have brought him inside and reopened the gate. And I was like, well, how would this mailman know exactly when he was there? Would they use

GPS coordinates? And the person who DMed me said that in this A&E documentary, they were saying that he had scanned in a package in that area at 1045. So I haven't been able to verify. If you guys have it, by all means, send it to us. If it's something tangible, we're not opposed to it. I would clarify some things because we're under the assumption right now after talking about it off camera, that the times are off. Someone's off with the times. We both believe whether we're right or wrong. We both believe that someone's off and that this mailman actually was there before the neighbor ever put the dog back because we can understand or rationalize the dog, not barking. Maybe that, you know, the dog just didn't bark, but the gate being opened again, why would Lacey have even opened the side gate again? It would make, it wouldn't make a lot of sense. So the fact that both things were the case where the

mailman's like, clearly the gate was open and there was no dog. We both believe that he was there before the dog was ever brought back. That's just, that's just where we fall on it. Yeah. I don't see her leaving to bring the dog for a walk and then leaving the gate open. But I mean, either way, I don't think the testimony of the mailman is super important. And apparently the judge agrees because we just found out Scott Peterson's not getting a new trial, right? Well, we found out that he has to be resentenced. Resentenced, yeah. He has to be resentenced because he's on death row right now. And he's got to be resentenced as getting life in prison because he's not going to be on death row anymore. It was funny because I was looking into it and I've seen different perspectives on it. I'm sure a lot of people are going to weigh in. He's definitely got to be resentenced. I don't know if that completely negates the possibility that he could get another trial on appeal. I didn't see anything that said his appeal was denied. I just saw that the judge ruled that based on what they've come up with,

and I know that the lawyers for Scott were saying he had jury misconduct. We talked about that a couple episodes ago with this, that he deserved a new trial. Maybe that's what this means as far as the resentencing, but that's not the way I took it. I took it as this was just a resentencing to be accurate with what conditions he's currently under, which is he's no longer eligible for the death penalty. That's how I took it. I thought he got rid of the death penalty months ago. Right. But he was never resentenced. They took it off the table.

It's a really odd case. They took it off the table, but he was never officially resentenced to say, hey, it's now life in prison. Well, I think there's a moratorium. I think there's a moratorium on the death penalty under Gavin Newsom in California. So I think they kind of put a stop to all death penalty cases. So maybe they have to resentence all these people now to make, like paperwork, make it seem right on paper. But either way, we basically went over the timeline of the 24th. We talked about what time Scott left that morning.

We talked about witnesses who saw Lacey or thought that they saw Lacey. We talked about Scott Peterson's warehouse, what he said he was doing that day. We talked about him coming home, having cold pizza and milk, which apparently is disgusting. It's a big thing. It's a big thing. Her comments were weighing in on it. I know. I know. I know. Listen, I like milk. I'm strong bones. But either way, we kind of ended with everybody looking for Lacey in East Loma Park because that's where she would normally walk Mackenzie. So that's where people thought she might be. Now, according to Sharon Rocha, after searching for Lacey

unsuccessfully in East La Loma Park, they all returned to 523 Covina Avenue, where they were greeted by law enforcement officials. She claims that Scott showed up a few minutes later and he did not look upset or panicked. So at this point, and I mean, for several weeks going forward, Lacey's family did not suspect that Scott had done anything wrong. They felt sorry for him and they felt that he was as tortured by Lacey's absence as they were. And Sharon says, you know, he was never a big talker to begin with. So the fact that he really didn't have a lot to say and he was kind of quiet and reserved, that was pretty normal for him. But Sharon, she wrote a book about her daughter. In her book, she says, oh, I should have seen this red flag. I should have

seen this red flag. I think in hindsight, it's easier for her to look back and see the things that Scott did or hear the things that he said and say, this should have been suspicious to me in the moment. But in the moment, it wasn't because they truly felt that Scott and Lacey had the perfect marriage. But this day, December 24th, Sharon did start to question some things. She didn't know that Scott owned a boat. So when he told her he was fishing that day, she was confused because she only knew of him to go deep sea fishing. And she didn't think the boats left that late in the day. So when you go deep sea fishing, you don't go out in like your little tin can boat out into the deep sea. You take like a boat, like a chartered boat with other people who are deep sea fishing.

And her husband, Ron, went deep sea fishing all the time. In fact, he went fishing that same exact Christmas Eve morning. So a lot of people were saying, oh, it's suspicious that Scott went fishing that morning. Ron Gransky went fishing that morning as well, but he was already back by like 10, 1030 in the morning because he'd left so, But Scott wasn't offering much information. Every bit was like pulling teeth. I figured he was beside himself and didn't want to talk. He kept his distance from everyone. And while it was bizarre, especially the way the rest of us found she was an idiot because she didn't see the signs, would they be so bold to say the same thing about Lacey's mother and her father and her stepfather and the rest of her family? Because like I said, these people were in the media defending Scott. They were telling the reporters like, no, he could have never done this, etc., etc. It's pretty clear to me that when something seems too horrible to believe or even consider, the human brain will sort of like protect itself against it.

And I think that's what happened not only with Sharon Rocha and Lacey's family, but with Amber as well. So if we're going to have a little grace to give to Lacey's family, we should offer it to Amber too. But that's just my opinion. I think you started the whole, like, let's hate on Amber thing when you were like, I think she has something to do with this. And, you know, listen, I'm glad you brought that up because I was not hating on Amber and, you know, I'm not worried about being accused of it, but it's one of those things where I was from a personal perspective. I do believe like maybe she was a little blinded.

Like some people were and this is a personal thing. It doesn't affect the case. But like what I have let, you know, him, you know, go pick up my kid with me or no, I wouldn't. And I think I know you well enough to know you wouldn't either. So there were things that on a personal level, I was a little raised an eyebrow to doesn't affect the case. And I actually think it's really admirable that she's come forward and given so much information to law enforcement to try to assist in this case. out in a room and talk about all the judgmental errors we've made when it comes to judging other people in our lives and how we're blinded sometimes by our own personal feelings, I'm pretty confident that most of us would have at least one story like this. Before we get too far off track, I want to double back to the new trial news because I was looking up the notes from what

we had and I just want to clarify, it does look like the way Scott's legal team was pursuing this new trial was to say, hey, listen, he received an unfair trial the first time due to juror misconduct. Instead of it just being a resentencing, we think it should be a completely new trial. And the judge has officially ruled that she does not believe that this one jury member and their misconduct is enough to warrant a new trial. And therefore it will only be a resentencing. So there you have it. It's a big reason why you and I decided to do this. And it doesn't look like Scott will be getting a new trial. And therefore he is guilty of killing his wife. That's simple, right? In the

eyes of the law. Yes. I think that there's a lot more in his appeal than just strawberry shortcake. It wasn't what they called the juror, Rochelle Nice. She had red hair, so they called her strawberry shortcake or something. But I think there was a lot more in his appeal that made sense besides the rogue jury theory. But whatever, that is the legal system. We is the legal system and it is what it is. We might hear more from this, but just as far as this trial, because I'm sure a lot of you guys have been following it. A lot of you were tagging us. It was a little confusing, but I did want to clarify and just say, hey, listen, based on the original reason why we started to talk about this

and cover it was because we didn't know if the judge was going to come back and say, yeah, you know what? This does warrant to be heard again by a new jury completely. And then obviously we'd start over from square one. Doesn't look like in this particular situation that's going to be the case. But I think it's fair to say, as we start our fourth episode, even though he has been found guilty and it looks like it's going to be upheld, there are still a lot of questions because we know there are people who are in jail right now who are in prison and they did not commit the crime. Could Scott Peterson be one of them?

That's what we're looking into. That's why we're covering it. And I'm sure he can appeal again if they don't get the answer they want this time around. Yep. So Lacey and Scott's home was only about a block and a half away from the footpath that Lacey would take to the park. And Lieutenant Bruce Abel and half a dozen officers went into the park immediately, despite the fact that it was already dark outside. The Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department provided two pilots and its helicopter to fly a search pattern up and down Dry Creek, which runs through the park.

They used a giant search light and a heat-seeking device, or a heat-sensing device. Sharon remembered seeing the helicopter arrive, and she thought, thank God, now they can find Lacey. When she heard the copter come back for a second pass, she told herself, you know, it had just missed Lacey the first time. But this time, when they went back, they would find her. Sharon said with each pass of the helicopter, she felt fear replace hope until she no longer heard the helicopter, and she was informed that they'd completed their search and left without finding Lacey. Detective Al Brocchini of the Modesto Police had been one of the first officers on the scene, and around 11 p.m., he approached Sharon and her husband Ron, who were still waiting outside of Lacey's house for news

because the police hadn't let anyone inside the house besides Scott. Brocchini told Sharon that she should go home. He was going to do some searches and then take Scott into the station to ask him some questions. Sharon told the detective to bring Scott to her house after so that he wouldn't be alone that night. But by 2 a.m., they still hadn't heard from him, so they gave him a call.

Scott told Lacey's brother Brent that he was still at the police station. But months later, the Rocha family would discover that he had been dropped off back home by detectives an hour earlier, at 1 a.m. Two hours later, at 4 a.m., they called Scott again, but he didn't answer. So Brent drove over to his house and came back to report that he had seen a light on inside the house, but he hadn't knocked on the door. They called Scott again, and he answered this time, claiming he had gotten home and fallen right asleep. Sharon was horrified. She wondered how in the world Scott could go to sleep when he didn't know where his wife and unborn son were. And I am asking myself the

same question, and I'm sure we're going to get into it after a quick break. You can't rely on blind faith to get the pregnancy support you deserve. Ritual's Essential Prenatal Multivitamin is the only leading prenatal backed by its own human clinical trial. Essential Prenatal is proven to deliver key nutrients, including folate, biotin, and vitamin D during pregnancy. Get 25% off when you visit ritual.com slash clinical. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Did you know that many products for pregnant women do not have their own clinical trials for safety or efficacy? That's because pregnant women are often excluded from clinical studies.

Ritual is aiming to set a new standard with their essential prenatatal Multivitamin. It's the number one best-selling prenatal and the only leading prenatal backed by its own human clinical trial. Essential Prenatal is proven to deliver key nutrients, including folate, biotin, and vitamin D during pregnancy. Moms taking Essential Prenatal had a lower overall cortisol level during pregnancy than those taking a leading prenatal. Plus, it's designed to be gentle on the stomach. Okay, we're back. So what do you think about this? Scott gets brought into the

police station for questioning. He clearly doesn't want to go to Sharon and Ron's house to spend the night. He wants to go back to his house and go to sleep. But he's passing out on a night where he literally just doesn't know where his pregnant wife is, would you be able to sleep if this was the case? No. No, I would not. It's that simple. I don't have to really dive into it too much. If my wife and unborn son are out there somewhere, I'm not going to sleep until I find them. And maybe that'll be never. But it's one of those things where I can't rationalize getting into my bed and being able to even fall asleep, even if I knew I had to. I don't rationalize getting into my bed and being able to even fall asleep even if I knew I had to I just I don't think I could I could do it so um it's odd it's hard to say the least yeah I'm sure he was tired but you'd think that there'd be some sort of like adrenaline rush going through you

like you know I can't rest until I find her like maybe he'd go out there by himself or try calling people or try going through like her computer or or her cell phone or something to find out where she was or if she talked to anybody. But he wasn't doing any of that. He just went to sleep. Al Brocchini had done an initial walkthrough of the house with Scott on the evening of December 24th. He said he saw Lacey's keys on the counter. There was also a pizza box on the counter. Lacey's purse was hanging up. There was also a pizza box on the counter. Lacey's purse was

hanging up in the closet of the master bedroom. In the washer, there were damp clothes, a pair of blue jeans and a blue t-shirt and a green pullover. These were the clothes that Scott had worn when he'd been fishing. The police also looked through Scott's truck and Lacey's Land Rover SUV. In the SUV, Lacey's cell phone was found plugged into the charger. The phone was off and would not power up because there was not enough battery life. Albrocchini also found some patio umbrellas and a blue tarp in Scott's truck. The umbrellas were wrapped in the blue tarp, but there was another tan-colored tarp that was bunched up in the truck, pushed up against the green toolbox in the bed. So let's talk about the tarp and the patio

umbrellas because didn't Scott load those patio umbrellas up in the truck so that he could store them at the warehouse earlier that morning? And then he went to the warehouse, but he didn't take the umbrellas out of his truck and store them there. He brought them back home. That doesn't make a lot of sense. No, no, it really doesn't. And I'm sure it raised some flags for the detectives as well. And I'm wondering why were the patio umbrellas in there then? Were they to hide something like a body? Obviously, very possible. Apparently, they also found a gun in Scott's truck. Not long after, the media would run with a story that claimed the police smelled bleach in Lacey's house when they did their initial walkthrough, which started the rumor that Scott had been busy cleaning up a crime scene. Later, Scott's attorneys would point to the absence of this claim anywhere in the police reports, and everyone wondered where the media had gotten this

information. But a few years later, Al Brocchini was with a judge trying to get a warrant for a different case, and the judge asked him about the Peterson investigation because the trial was ramping up. And Brocchini mentioned to this judge that when he'd gone into the house on Christmas Eve night, he'd smelled bleach in there. Now, Brocchini would later claim he had never said this to the judge. But during the trial, Mark Garagos grilled him, asking if Brocchini thought the judge was making it up. Was the judge lying? And Brocchini thought the judge was making it up. Was the judge lying? And Brocchini

didn't have an answer for that. So either the judge completely made that up or Al Brocchini actually did say that and it wasn't true and he was trying to cover. I actually, before you continue, I have a question because I was letting you go and I was trying to process it and maybe play a couple scenarios in my head, but we kind of just passed over it. The cell phone, Lacey's cell phone being in her SUV. Was anything ever made of that? Because that sounds, you know, I was waiting for you to get to the cell phone. I thought maybe the cell phone was never found, but I'm just trying to play it out here. And obviously there's a lot of people watching and listening. If you're going for a walk with the dog, I think you would bring your phone with you.

If you're inside your home, I think you would have your phone in your house with you. I don't know many people that use their vehicle to charge their cell phones when they have working electric in their house. Unless you're in the car. Unless you're in the car or going, you know, even if you're, I've never even taken my phone, like knowing I'm about to get in the car, like an anticipation, plugged my phone in and left it in there. I've never done that. I mean, I guess that's a plausible scenario, but, um, was anything ever made of this? Was this ever a bigger thing?

Because it just seems like an odd place to find the phone. And not only that, I can see it being dead because if the phone was on, it was in there for maybe a few hours. It died after that doesn't bother me. But just the fact that it was in there is a little odd to me. I don't know what to make of it. Maybe do you have any like explanation as why it was as to why that would be in there?

They never really talk about the phone. It was found in Lacey's car. It was plugged in. It was assumed that this was Lacey's phone, but they don't talk about it any further. So it's kind of interesting. Interesting. Because we're going to the assumption, right, like there are a lot of people out 2002, maybe she was someone who didn't have her phone attached to her hip. I hope, you know, I'm envious of her. You know, maybe she was someone who was like, I'm going on a walk and I want to be disconnected from, you know, everything. Maybe. But still, why would you put it? Maybe you're about to go on your walk and you stick it in your car. I don't know. It just seems odd to me. We don't have to go too deep into it, but it doesn't, that to me would raise some questions because was that a normal behavior for her to take her phone and plug it into the car, even though the car is not running? I mean, it's 2002. She may have been somebody that had it for like, you know, cause they had a house phone. So she may have been

somebody who had it for like an emergency. If she was on the road, she would have it in her car. Like I remember back in the day, you know, people used early cell phones as car phones, basically. You know, they just kept them charged up and in the car in case they, you know, got in an accident or got stuck in the snow or something. So it may have been that. But there's just nothing out there about the cell phone besides that mention of it in the police report. Okay. Another question. I'm sorry. I know we're getting off track here, but I got to do it. Where did they go the night before? Where was the place? Lacey and Scott, they went out, they got a pizza the night before. They went to where her sister worked, the salon in Modesto.

Do we know what vehicle they were in? No. Okay. Interesting. Right? I'm going to have to look that up too because. I would assume Lacey's vehicle, right? Right.

Yeah. Right. So if it was, if they were in Lacey's vehicle, did she happen to leave the phone in there from the night before? It's possible. And if she did, if she were still coherent and awake and around in the morning when Scott's getting ready to leave, what's something that she might do considering she hasn't had her phone since the night before? Go and find her phone. Go and find her phone. Where did I misplace it?

Did I leave it somewhere? Did I leave it at the party? You know, where, you know, did I leave it at the pizza? You know, whatever. Did I, did it fall out of the car? Whatever the case may be, you would think even if she's someone who's not connected to her phone, if she had left it in there the night before when they were out, you know, they got their pizza, which can happen probably by the next morning after she's, you know, done flat iron here, doing some online shopping, probably

would want to find her phone, especially if she's hopping on her laptop or on her desktop, whatever it was. That's something to me that could be interesting. Maybe everyone's listening to me right now going, that's already been explained away, Derek. But for me right now, not having a deep understanding of the phone and what was found out about it, that would be extremely interesting to me because if you're someone who believes Scott did it, like the courts, right? He's guilty. That would explain maybe why she wouldn't get her phone because the simple answer would be she forgot her phone in the car the night before and she was dead before she had a chance to go find it. All right. So I found something on Reddit.

It's like a it looks like a timeline of Scott Peterson's calls that day. And it says Scott called Lacey's cell phone while driving home. He did not see Lacey's cell phone when he arrived home. It was later located in the Land Rover. If Scott had nothing to do with Lacey's disappearance, he'd have called on his cell phone at least once before calling Sharon or before calling 911. He didn't call 911. Ron Gransky did. Come on, Reddit. And certainly before calling dozens of Lacey's friends and going door to door. No one knocks on dozens of doors hoping to find a cell phone until they first call that cell phone. Scott did not call Lacey's cell phone because Scott knew she would not answer.

And it shows the 12-24 day and how often he called her cell phone. It looks like he called her once on the way home, but he didn't call her after he got home, which is odd. Which is odd. And I think even, and home, which is odd. Which is odd. And I think even, and again, that in and of itself is odd. And I also think maybe not odd, but actually explains some things for us. Why would her cell phone be in her SUV? Maybe she never had a chance to go back for it. You know, maybe whatever happened, happened earlier in the morning and therefore she never went out to her vehicle.

And because of what we know happened, she may have already been dead very early in the morning, which would have prevented her from doing so. Yeah. And it says the last two calls on the phone are from Scott and Brocchini using Scott's phone to check Lacey's voicemail. Yeah, that's interesting. I definitely want to dive in and find out what car they went because I'm with you. I think that we're probably going to find out that they were in her SUV. They were in the Land Rover. And if they were in the Land Rover, it would make sense.

He was probably driving. She's pregnant. I'm assuming she was the passenger. She probably had her phone plugged in. Maybe it was close to being dead, which is why when they got to it the next day the phone was dead you know because the car was shut off the phone ran all night died and then instead of her coming out and grabbing the phone to charge in the house scott kills her and the phone's just left there that would that would explain it i wish i knew what kind of phone it was because if it was a basic phone, man, those things can hold a charge for a week.

Well, that's my point though. Why would she put it on the charger in the first place? Because it was close to being dead. Yeah. So even though I don't know how long the ride was, we could really dive into that at some point. But if the phone's close to dead when they leave the event they're at, she puts it on the charge to give it a little bit of battery life, forgets it in the car because she's tired or whatever. It dies because they shut the car off. It doesn't continue to charge. It runs on whatever battery life it had. And then whatever happens in the morning, she never comes out for it. Yeah. I'm actually looking at a picture here and it is a basic phone.

Yeah. So if it was a full charge, probably would last a while. But if it was only a partial charge, 10, 20% charges again, 20 years ago, a little different as far as their capabilities, as far as fast charging, all that stuff. So that is very interesting to me about the phone, because I thought that maybe the phone, I thought you were going to tell me that the phone was never recovered. They found Lacey, they found Connor, but the phone was never recovered. Because I Lacey, they found Connor, but the phone was never recovered. Because I would see that thing going in the water too, right? The fact that it was left behind, I think is very intriguing. Yeah, everything was left behind.

Her keys, her purse, her phone, everything. Well, I could see the keys in the purse, right? Like if you're going for a walk with the dog, you don't need your car keys. You don't need your house keys if you're leaving the house unlocked. You wouldn't need your purse more than likely. It's just an extra thing to carry, but your phone, you could stick it in your waistband. That would allow Scott to call you or your mother. You have dinner plans at night. Yeah. If you left willingly. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. That's why I think it's extremely intriguing because

normal behavior, unless she was an exception and maybe some relatives could weigh in on this, was she a person who usually had her phone on her? Was she someone who would leave it around all the time? But the fact that even if she did leave it in the car the fact that she was allegedly according to scott Alive all morning you would think at some point especially when she was online shopping She would probably be like, you know, hey, where's my phone by the way? You know and go grab it go look for I think I left it on the charger in the car. The fact that it was never removed from that charger indicates that she never went in there

to get it. And why wouldn't she do that? I don't know. I mean, sounds like that could tell you something as far as whatever happened, happened to her happened very early in the morning, because if she was up all day, I would believe she would have went and got her phone yeah weigh in on the comments on that one i mean i don't think i'm like i said i don't think it's a smoking gun but we have brought up some things that would suggest maybe scott didn't do it that to me is very suggestive that whatever happened to lacy whoever you believed was involved, it happened to her early. And we know who was with her early in the morning. It was Scott. Well, just the fact that he didn't try to even call her cell phone after he got home. Yeah, that's odd. That's odd too. Added to the list.

And I'm sorry, I know we got way off track there, but the phone, you went over it and I'm like, the phone was in the car? I paused so you could put something in, but you didn't. Well, there we go. Now I'm putting something in. We just got, we just went completely off script on that one. But it was like, it's something where that to me is so far the, one of the more incriminating things that I've heard. I know it might be insignificant to others, but I think it's extremely incriminating in regards to Scott.

Well, I think there's a lot to wonder, like what, what shape was the phone in? Was the battery old and it died a lot? Was Lacey somebody who always kept her phone on her? Maybe she didn't care about it. You know, maybe it was just kind of like left behind. She didn't look at it for days. Yeah. Was it an afterthought? Right. We don't know that, but it's suspicious that he didn't call her. Hey, she had it enough to take it with her to wherever she went that night. Or she might have just left in the car all the time. You don't know. Yeah. It's a good point. It's a good point. I mean, the only reason I wouldn't leave my cell phone in the car is because it gets cold and cold is bad for cell phone batteries. But if it's nice, like it is in California, it doesn't get like

freezing. I would, I would leave like a flip phone in my car all the time in case something happened. And maybe I'm not getting service on my smartphone. Cause you know, this 5g thing never works. Guys weigh in on it. Am I talking out my you know what or is there something to this where it's like, oh, you know, because a lot of you know what, you know, talking about your ass. Oh, yeah. Why didn't you say that? I was trying to be nice. I swear. You know, I know. I know we're all grownups here. I try to be, you know, because I know sometimes people listening to it out loud or whatever, you know, try to be nice, but you just blew it up. Don't listen to this stuff out loud around your children, okay? Yeah, that's a good point.

Not the best material for kids. But regardless, they go in the house. No matter what Brocchini said about smelling bleach or what the other cops said about being suspicious of Scott, they found zero evidence of foul play in that house or in the vehicles. So Al Brocchini had spoken to Scott multiple times throughout the night, you know, kind of talking to him as they walked around, getting like a rough timeline. But when he got him back to the station, Brocchini wanted to go over his timeline again, and he wanted to record. They wanted to videotape the interview. Brocchini said Scott's demeanor during this interview was calm, cool, and relaxed. He did not seem emotional at all. Like I said, this interview

was recorded. You can see it in its entirety on YouTube if that's something you're interested in. Brocchini asked Scott if he had fired any guns that day, and Scott said no and consented to having a gunshot residue test done on his hands. And that's when Brocchini spotted a fresh cut on his knuckle, which Scott claimed had come from reaching inside of his toolbox. And as we already discussed, one drop of Scott's blood was later found on the door of his truck, which he claimed came from reaching inside the cab to get something. Scott was also asked to take a polygraph, which he again agreed to without a second thought. You can see in the video, Brocchini's like, well, you know, would you take a polygraph? And Scott's like, yes, absolutely. Many people have pointed out that Scott did agree to this quickly without knowing when Brocchini

wanted to administer this test. So Brocchini could have been like, okay, you want to take a polygraph? Great. I'm going to get the guy in here right now. You know, let's do it. And even knowing or not knowing when the polygraph would happen, Scott didn't hesitate before saying yes. Later in the interview, Brocchini brings up the polygraph again, asking if Scott would be willing to take one. And Scott responded, yeah, they're accurate, right? At that point, Brocchini told Scott that the test would not be given at that point, but in a day or two. Now, you'll hear most of the mainstream coverage of this case that Scott refused to take a polygraph. And it's sort of true because the day after this, Scott spoke to his father, Lee, who was basically like, no, dude, don't take a polygraph. Like,

they're not admissible in court. You know, it's just kind of like they're going to use it to implicate you or, you know, try to get you to confess to something. And it's funny because Scott's parents seem very insistent on making sure he doesn't say anything that's going to make him look bad. So Jackie Peterson once told her son to deny everything when talking to detectives. And this prompted one investigator to conclude that his parents knew more about what really happened to Lacey Peterson. So his mother literally, this is when they had his phones tapped, but his mother, Jackie, says a bunch of crazy stuff on these calls with Scott. Oh, I can't wait to get into it. But she basically says, deny everything. Like when you talk to the cops, just deny everything. And this is good advice, I would say, from both Jackie and Lee. You shouldn't take a

polygraph because I do believe that they're used as interrogation tools. You definitely shouldn't take one without consulting with a lawyer. And yeah, like you have the right to remain silent. You should deny everything if you haven't done anything but the way they they go about it is kind of seedy and kind of a little like what do you think i mean i'm taking a lot from this you know it's first off you're right like it is a technique and i think if you're gonna call someone out for to take a polygraph you got to have the guy ready to go the polygrapher ready to go um because if you allow them to leave, a lot of people, guilty or innocent, are going to start to think about it, talk to friends and family and decide not to take it. I am a little interested.

Which is their right to do. Which is their right to do, of course. So if you're going to do it, for all you future investigators out there, if you have someone agreeing to do it, have them sign the dotted line and have them take the test right there. Don't allow them to, you know, talk to family, friends and all that stuff, because more than likely they're not going to do it because there's so much out there about polygraphs now and a lot of opinions on them. I do think it's a little interesting that Scott said he spoke to his father and, you know, his father said, don't take it. I wonder, I wonder in my head if that's really what, oh, you know, listen listen i would love to take it i wanted to take it but my dad's the one telling me not to no lee said lee said that he did he told him oh i

totally believe that i totally believe that but is that really you know was it really where scott was like dad i want to take this and lee's like no scott don't do it no son bad idea or was it like scott just probably isn't there like you know i'm not a psychologist but i have a feeling maybe i'm naive that i don't know if scott ever said to them i killed her but i think they know their son better than anyone on this planet and i think that they might know when their son is not telling them the truth about something so it's one of those things where it's like i don't want to know but i know and they might know when their son is not telling them the truth about something. So it's one of those things where it's like, I don't want to know, but I know. And they might've been giving him advice like, Scott, maybe it's not the best idea that you give a polygraph.

Kind of reminds you of like Brian Laundrie and Gabby Petito a little bit, right? Oh, just a little, just a little, just a little. So it's one of those things where, you know, I think Lee and Jackie knew a lot more than they were telling police, whether it was directly or indirectly from just from seeing Scott and how he, they know what his normal behavior is. They know his baseline better than anyone. So they know when their son's lying to him or when he's hiding something. And they might've been advising him to deny everything because they knew deep down if

he said too much, he was probably going to end up in prison, which here we are. He's in prison. So, I mean, technically, Scott did, like, refuse to take the polygraph the day after. And, you know, this is Modesto PD, so they don't have no person who can administer polygraphs. Just sitting at the station at one o'clock in the morning on Christmas Day, on Christmas Day of all things. A lot of places don't. It's a craft. Yeah. So he, he refused to do it. But what the media usually will not follow up with is the fact that later on, Scott did take one after he was urged to do so by Amber Fry,

who was urged to urge Scott towards the polygraph by the Modesto police. Cause this was after the Modesto police and, and Amber were kind of working together and they were like, he'll get him to take a polygraph. But they never say like whether he failed it. They don't they don't release any information about that either. So it's just very odd. You know, the cell phone, Lacey's cell phone. There's so much potential evidence that's out there that they give us this little like

taste of, but then they don't tell us anything else. I would like to know what's in Lacey's phone. I would like to know who she was texting. Was she texting her friends saying things like, you know, my freaking husband's never here. I think he's, you know, with another woman. He might be cheating on me, you know, Shanann Watts style.

Or was she not doing any of that? Did Scott fail the polygraph? Did he pass it? Did he pass it? And that's why we don't know the results of it because it doesn't support their narrative. It's just very odd. It is odd. I agree with everything you said. I want to talk about the fact that he ended up taking the test, but let's take a quick break and we'll get right into that. Did you know that many products for pregnant women do not have their own clinical trials

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These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. All right, so we're back from the break. I agree with everything you said before we went to it. The thing that's interesting to me is you have this man, his wife and his son are missing at this point. And the one person that's able to convince him that this is the right thing for him to do, even probably with his family contesting against it, his parents, especially is Amber. And when we think about the reason why he would go to such extreme measures to be with Amber, possibly killing his wife. It's funny that Amber was the one who convinced him. So it does really hold true that this guy

really held Amber in high regard to the point where he was willing to risk his freedom at the request of Amber. So it does kind of tie back to, I'm not saying Scott was a good guy. I don't think he was a good guy, but if you're doing some things with a woman on the side and then this happens, you would think he'd probably say, Hey, I got to come clean with you. I need some time. I can't speak to you right now. I'm in the middle of an investigation. I'm definitely a person of interest. Maybe it's best that you and I don't talk right now. I got to make decisions with a clear mind, but instead he's doing this polygraph in my my opinion, to appease Amber. So that in the middle of his wife missing and his son missing,

he is still thinking about doing things that Amber will approve of. He's trying to hold on to her. He's trying to hold on to there. And to me, that's kind of telling. You would think, even if he was on the way out with Lacey, the fact that she's giving birth to his son, that would be top priority. He would not be conferring with his mistress, I mean, by definition, to figure out what's the best plan for him from a legal perspective. But yet, even though his parents told him not to do it, Amber comes around and says, I think you shouldn't.

I'm right on it, baby. Let's do it. It just seems like it's a little telling that she would be able to be basically the sole vote to do the polygraph and that would supersede people that have known him his entire life. Yeah. Well, I mean, we still don't know whether he passed it or failed it. Yeah. And you know what? Do you think that if he passed it, based on everything you've laid out so far with, you know, the police kind of not releasing things that would be favorable to him not being guilty, do you think that if he had failed it, that would have leaked already? Yeah.

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It might've been inconclusive or whatever, but I think if he failed it, I have a feeling we would know. You know, I don't like Scott Peterson. Like, I know there's a lot of people who are going to be like, oh, Stephanie's trying to make this case for his innocence. No, no, no, no. I don't like Scott Peterson. OK, I think he's a slimeball whether or not he killed Lacey.

He's a slimeball. I also don't like shitty cops. And what you have here is a bunch of shitty cops who have tunnel vision. And they may have gone into it with good intentions, like, we really think he did this, so we're not going to let him get away with it. But what they did after is they let that cloud their judgment. And they made some mistakes that I don't believe were mistakes. I think some of it was purposeful and legally and morally wrong. So that that bothers me because, yeah, I don't like Scott Peterson, but I do like my brother and my father and Derek and my husband. And I'm not trying to see any one of these guys get caught up and arrested and then basically put in prison for life because a bunch of cops decided that's where they belonged instead of letting the jury in the legal system do its job.

So I don't like Scott Peterson. Also don't like shitty cops. Both of these things can be true at once. I agree with that. I agree. Definitely. Well, on December 26th, Scott was asked again if his home could be searched. But this time he told law enforcement that he wanted to consult with his attorney before signing anything. Now, apparently someone leaked to the media, someone leaked to the media, this is a phrase we hear a lot, that Scott had refused this search completely. And when his lawyer didn't get in touch with the Modesto police fast enough, they got a warrant and they went in anyways, removing two computers and roughly 100 boxes

of items from the home that would be cataloged and tested. Both vehicles, Scott's truck and Lacey's SUV, were also towed away and processed. Not one piece of physical evidence was found on anything taken from the home or the cars. So I'm going to talk about the Annie series really quick. And I already said it was garbage, but listen, they had the detectives on there. Detective Al Brocchini was in there and Detective John Buehler, who was basically Brocchini's second in command. He was on there. So I did get some good like quotes from them. But Detective John Buehler in this A&E series, he says the search warrant or, you know, going in and wanting to search the Peterson house on the 26th of December. It wasn't really so much like find evidence. It was to gauge Scott's reaction about us wanting to go

in and look at his house. And honestly, I think that's kind of bullshit because they'd already been in there on the 24th. Scott was cooperative. He let them go through. They walked around. They took pictures on the 24th. So why would they be like, oh, two days later, let's get his reaction when we want to go in his house? It seems kind of stupid. And I also feel like as a as a police officer, your main your main concern should be trying to find evidence, not like piss off your suspect or like get him triggered or, you know, see how he reacts. And then when he wants to talk to a lawyer before you go into his house and search, you act like that's a sign of guilt. But he just he wanted to talk to his lawyer. He already let you go in the house without a lawyer. He already

sat down and talked to the police the first night without a lawyer. Now he wants to consult with a lawyer. That's his right. That's all of our rights. So what do you think about that? I'll be transparent for the sake of expediting this because we're literally I'm in charge of the clock, guys. And I can see we're like not even halfway through our script and we're literally, I'm in charge of the clock guys and I can see we're like not even halfway through our script and we're an hour in. But I will say this, I definitely don't completely agree with you. I'm looking at it through a different lens. If I were the husband of my missing wife and son, I would want the cops at my house every day. That's just, I mean, but it's a personal opinion. If the cops weren't showing up to my house 24 seven to come in and speak with me or search my house,

I would feel like you're not doing enough. So I can definitely see your side of it. And you're not the only one who feels this way, by the way, this is a majority of people. A lot of people feel this way. And I I'm definitely skewed because I've, I've been on the other side to it. They are using it as an investigative tactic. They said it, not you, right? They're saying that that's what they're reasoning behind it. I'd be lying to you if I said I haven't done things like that to try to just kind of get a reaction out of it because I'm looking for something because they clearly felt like Scott was responsible and they were trying to catch him off guard. Whether you agree with it or not,

who am I to tell you you're right or wrong? It's a personal opinion. You have the right, like you said, to your lawyers and to consult with people that you trust. But for me, I'm just only speaking for me. If my wife and son were missing, if the police want to come, if I'm literally innocent, do what you got to do. Rip my house apart. Bring the dog in here. I don't care. I don't care. Do what you got to do.

Even if you knew that they were basically considering you like their only suspect? I know that if my wife goes missing tomorrow, they might not call me it, but I'm going to be the number one suspect. Yeah. But I have a different background to kind of understand that where he doesn't. So I see where you're coming from. Yeah. And if they'd already been in your house and then they want to go in again two days later and you're over here like y'all were already in here. I know you're focused on me, but like, don't you think you should be out there looking for her and stop walking around the house that you all already found zero evidence in? But you want to come in again? Okay. I wonder how extensive the first search was. It wasn't extensive. It was a walkthrough. They took pictures. They kind of looked around. Yeah.

So it happened with Chris Watts kind of too. They come back around and we've seen it on the body cam footage. Their demeanor changes. And they're using the baseline from the first interview, the first search to compare it to the other. Again, I'm not trying to convince any of you out there to agree with me or disagree with me. You know, that's. No, I'm sure they'll agree with you. And I think there's some that agree with you, too, as well. I think there's a lot that are going to say we don't want them in there. But, you know, if you really got nothing to hide, then there's nothing for them to find. That's the way I've always thought about it. But I know

that a majority of people don't feel that way. So I don't like that argument. That's like saying, oh, I know the government's listening to my phone calls and has access to like every single thing I search on the internet, but I have nothing to hide, so I don't care. The fact of the matter is the police have the right to use whatever investigatory tactics they want. And us as citizens, we have the right to say,

nope, you're not walking in my house without a warrant and I'm gonna talk to my lawyer and I don't need to just let you in here. So at the end of the day, if that was their plan to see how he reacted, I don't know what his reaction told them, but they considered that it made him look guilty. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everything you said, it's all opinion-based, right? I mean, on both ends, me included. And it's one of those things where I am definitely one of those people. You and I differ on that where it's like I know that my internet is being, you know, my web browsing history and all that stuff. But, you know, they definitely overstep their boundaries.

We're going way off topic here. They definitely overstep their boundaries in a lot of ways. Are you talking about the police or the government right now? I know. That's why I'm saying we're like getting way off topic. Let me keep it focused on the police because that is a whole different conversation. Yeah. When we start talking about internet, the local police are not

monitoring your web browsing server, what you're doing. But locally, if the law enforcement officers want to come in and check the apartment again, because the first search they did was just kind of like an overview. I personally wouldn't have an issue with that, but I've also been a police officer. I could see how some people would be skeptical um he clearly knew that they were probably looking at him through a different set of lenses than most people but for me and he's got lee he's got lee in his ear too now right yeah i mean they all you know but from a police side of it just to be honest you know i would be asking to search again and if you were hesitant about, I would think that you might be concerned about something. That's all.

Especially when it involves, it's not like I'm asking to search your house for some random person down the road and you're trying to come. I'm coming here to try to find your wife. Yeah, I agree. The fact of the matter is they got the warrant. They went in there that day. They still found zero evidence. Yeah.

So that's the moral of the story. But like you said, they weren't going there for that. They were going there to see if Scott was okay with them doing it. They didn't give a shit about what they'd find. They were going there to gauge him. It's so manipulative. I hate it. I kind of like it.

I kind of like the chess game. I like the chess game. Yeah. You like the game of intrigue. Okay. I like the game of, I know you did something. Let's see who you think you're slick. You think you got away with it. Let's see how smart you really are.

Yeah. Okay. You're not coming to my house without a warrant. Especially if you killed your wife. Yeah. I don't care what I've done. You are not coming in here. But anyways, listen, they also brought a police dog.

They brought a police dog to the house and they wanted to be able to hopefully track Lacey's path, like where she went walking so they could narrow down the search. But instead of heading towards the park, the police dog led everyone down the road and around the the E&J Gallo Winery, where it began sniffing around some dumpsters. Now, it was reported in the Modesto Bee on December 27th that police officers climbed into those dumpsters with flashlights. But once again, this is one of those things where they said, yeah, we climbed in the dumpsters, but they never said whether they found anything or not. But this led the police to theorize that Lacey had not left on foot at all. It was more likely she had been taken somewhere by vehicle. That same day, the Sacramento Bee reported that police had checked homeless encampments along Dry Creek in Lilloma Park. But one officer told the paper that many of the homeless had fled, most likely due to all the search-related activity. And apparently, there was a good deal of a homeless population in Modesto at this time.

I'm not sure where they are now. I haven't done my research into that. But during this time, there was a lot of homeless people living in the park, under the bridge, things like that. So what do you think about the police dog, the scent dog, following Lacey's scent down the road instead of towards the park? This goes back to what we talked about. What was it? Last case that we did, it was Degree. Asha Degree. Asha Degree. Without me knowing the dog and what their resume is, it's tough because I always tell you guys, the dogs are only as good

as their handlers. So I don't know if this was a veteran dog that had multiple seizures of, you know, and multiple finds of people. I don't know. It could be a fresh dog out of the training, you know, training just came off training and now a rookie. Fresh dog. Fresh dog. Well, that's what we do. You know, you have fresh dogs who, because some dogs after a while, they get better. Some get worse. They get, they're less incentivized to locate things. They just, they just want to sit there.

So if we're to take the at face value that the dog was really good, right? I think the theory does kind of hold some weight because you would expect if she had just walked down the road in one direction or the other, the dog would pick it up at least for a little while. And the fact that it didn't does suggest if we're to take the dog's finding at face value that she never did walk anywhere. She never did leave the place and that maybe she walked to the trash to dump something at some point, but that's as far as she really had gotten. But it's always hard for me with the dogs because like I said, I've

seen some great ones and I've seen some really bad ones. Or could it have been a trip that she took like the day before or the day before that that he was following? Right. Absolutely. But if the last thing that she did was go for a walk with the dog before whatever happened happened, you would expect the dog to start heading one direction. Even if it went by the trash, I don't mind, but like kept going because clearly she wouldn't have stopped there.

That wouldn't have been the extent of her walk. So that is interesting. It could be just the dog was terrible or it could mean a lot. It could be right on and the dog could be accurate with what it sent and said, hey, listen, she didn't leave this area. And if that's the case, again, another mark against Scott Peterson. Well, the judge actually didn't allow this evidence into trial because he said it was iffy. So he wouldn't allow this evidence to be presented at trial. And by the way, with dogs, when they find something that's incriminating or they find they're used for tracking, a lot of the times the handler has to testify and produce a history of this dog being

successful. It's a level of accuracy. And that can sometimes throw out whatever they find as well. Because if you have a dog that's never had a positive seizure or shown that they've been able to successfully track someone, it's harder to get that into court as an expert statement. Yeah, I agree. Well, on December 26th, Rudy and Susan Medina, the Petersons' neighbors from across the street, they returned home from L.A. They'd left around 10 a.m. on December 24th. So this was a quick trip, just a couple of days. But upon returning home, they discovered that their house had been broken into.

The back door of the home had been kicked in and a safe was missing. With the Medinas only having been gone for two days, there was an obvious question as to whether or not Lacey's disappearance and the robbery across the street from her home were connected. Maybe she had seen something she shouldn't have, and so she'd been taken to prevent her from talking. Now, the Modesto police claimed to have cracked the case of the robbery, as well as proved that it was not connected to Lacey's disappearance. But there is some question of that. So the perpetrators, at least the ones that the police caught, they were two men, Stephen Wayne Todd and Donald Glenn Pierce.

They were arrested and they took responsibility for the burglary, which they initially claimed had happened on December 26th, not the 24th. They also denied any involvement with the missing pregnant woman. And basically just like that, the police decided these two men were not involved. However, when these two men were interviewed by a detective from Modesto Police, they had originally claimed the robbery happened on the 27th, which would have been impossible since the Medinas were already home by then. So it's kind of been suggested that the police quickly set the robber straight about the dates and times. And they were like, listen, it can't be the 24th because that's the day Lacey went missing. And you said you don't have anything to do with her. So it can't be the 27th because the Medinas were home

by then. Well, you think it was the 26th? And they were like, yeah, yeah, we think we think it was the 26th. So they then claimed the robbery happened on December 26th between 3 a was Diane Jackson, and she lived just a short distance away from the Petersons and the Medinas. And she told the police she'd been driving by the Medina house on December 24th around 1140 a.m. At this time, she witnessed a van parked in front of the house and three men, and they were like carrying a safe out onto the front lawn. Despite this sighting, and despite two of the men seen by Diane Jackson matching the description of the two men Modesto police would soon have in custody, the police claimed that they believed Stephen Todd and Glenn Pierce when the robbers claimed the robbery happened on the 26th, not the 24th. And remember that the police dog had led officers to an area on Santa Rosa Avenue. Well, Todd and Pierce lived in the same area,

just two blocks away from the Gallo Winery. There was a watch also, a gold watch that looked identical to one owned by Lacey Peterson. And this watch disappeared when she did. And apparently Lacey had tried to sell the watch on eBay a few weeks prior, but this watch turned up at a pawn shop on December 27th. It was pawned by a woman named

Deanna Renfro. And Deanna Renfro had a long criminal history and some connection to Stephen Todd and Glenn Pierce. During the trial, Mark Garagos would bring up the robbery and the changing stories of the robbers. And, you. And some might say that this is reasonable doubt. If the robbery happened on the 24th and Diane saw them, and then you have this watch that looks identical to Lacey's watch being pawned by this woman, Deanne Renfro, it's kind of crazy. And Mark Geragos also brought up a connecting theory. So his theories, they get kind of convoluted and they overlap each other. Honestly, it feels a lot of the time

that he's just taking certain facts and evidence and throwing it against the wall to see if it sticks. But- Well, what's he trying to do there? Reasonable doubt. He's trying to create doubt. Yeah. That's it.

He doesn't care what it is. As long as something he says creates doubt in the mind of the jury member that he don't care. Yeah. I mean, but I could say in this case, we already have some reasonable doubt. I agree. But he's good for a reason, right? He's going to give you a la carte. He's going to give you everything. You pick and choose which things hit you or resonate with you. He doesn't care. As long as it creates enough doubt where you don't find him guilty, that's the whole goal. We said it earlier. If they can't go after after the evidence they'll go after how the evidence was

obtained and they'll try to create doubt in the minds of the jury members that it could be connected or maybe it's not connected that's what they do yeah man i would have loved to be a lawyer that sounds so fun but uh so mark garakos's theory was that Lacey had been the victim of a satanic cult in Modesto. And I know it's crazy, you know, before you tune out because you think it's ridiculous. And Derek and I had a conversation yesterday, which I now know he's terrified of all things supernatural. So I'm going to definitely terrorize him with all sorts of supernatural things from now on. I'm just going to send you like a haunted doll in the mail. Jesus. You're going to open it. You just going to send you like a haunted doll in the mail. Jesus.

You're going to open it. You're going to be like, what is this? She wanted to, she wanted to buy, she wanted us to go in and buy the, the house, you know,

that the movie based off of it's being sold near me. And she was like, we should do it. And I'm like, you're out of your effing mind. It's awesome. There's a fireplace in the kitchen. I was like,

well, what if I buy it? What if I buy a Derek? Will you like come over? And he's like, nope, I'm not. There's a fireplace in the kitchen. I was like, well, what if I buy it? What if I buy it, Derek? Will you like come over? And he's like, nope, I'll stay out on the lawn. I would never. No, zero chance. Oh, we're going to have so much fun.

Anyways, before you tune out because you think this theory is ridiculous, let's go over the supporting evidence. Four days after Lacey disappeared, a rape crisis counselor called the police in relation to a woman who has chosen to remain unidentified. And this woman reported she'd been kidnapped and raped by two men and two women in a brown van during a satanic ritual. During the ritual, they told this woman that they were going to commit a murder over Christmas and she would read about it in the papers. Now, the police tracked this brown van down on December 30th. It was parked at a nearby campsite, and there was four people found inside. Two of them were named Donnie and Mary Renfro. And even though Deanna Renfro's name was spelled differently in court documents, and I don't mean differently

than Donnie and Mary Renfro's last name. I mean, it was spelled differently in different ways multiple times throughout court documents. It has been suggested that this same woman, Deanna Renfro, who pawned a gold Croton watch, which was identical to one owned by Lacey Peterson, was the daughter of Donnie Renfro, who was apparently connected to some satanic cult in Modesto who had kidnapped this girl and then told her that they were going to commit a murder over Christmas. Two weeks before the end of Scott Peterson's trial, the prosecution turned over information about a prisoner in Stanislaus County Jail who confirmed the information given in a tip to Modesto PD at the end of January 2003. The officer who took this tip was named Lieutenant Xavier Aponte, and he worked at the Norco Correctional Institute. And he called Modesto police about a recorded prison call

between an inmate and his brother. The inmate's name was Sean Tenbrink, and his brother's name was Adam Tenbrink. And the discussion was about someone Sean knew, Stephen Todd. And Sean claimed that Stephen Todd had told him before he'd been arrested that Lacey Peterson had seen him and somebody's breaking into a house. And then they got into like an argument and they got into some sort of altercation. And this was what Stephen Todd told Sean Tenbrink, apparently. Now, Aponte's tip was added to a list of 10,000 or more tips, and it didn't include Lacey made aware of it until the trial was almost over when an inmate called from the county jail. This inmate met with members of Scott's defense team and told

them about the same information, basically saying like, yeah, this is going around. This is what this guy is saying. But by this point, it was so late in the trial, the motion to include this information was denied. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot to take in there. About the robbery, I always preface it by saying it's possible because I don't have anything that says it's not, but I do think it's an extreme escalation to go from a robbery to the murdering of a pregnant woman. I know that sounds terrible, but there's a lot of criminals that I've met that, you know, do some bad things, but have a code against like, you know, hurting women and children. Again, they have this code as well.

I know it's not all of them. You're looking at me weird. I dealt with these guys. I was in the thick of it. I had hundreds of confidential. Yeah, you dealt with these guys. Okay. And you know, any guys who would rob a house and kill someone in the process?

You know, those guys do, right? Yeah. I know those guys too. I'm not saying, I'm just saying, depending on if they walked into the house and she had been inside and it's something that in the moment it happens maybe, but if she was just walking by the house, my gut would say they'd probably just go, shit, we got to get out of here. We got to go. We got to go. There's people around. They have to know people are around if they're doing it in broad daylight. I also think that it's more than likely. What time did the woman say that she saw him on the front lawn with the safe,

which seems a little odd to me, but it would just be on the front lawn with the safe. Well, you got to take it out somehow, right? Well, I mean, listen, all these witness statements that we have, this is one thing I can say definitively. We have a lot of witness testimony so far. They're not all right. I'm not saying they're lying, but some of them are definitely wrong. You almost said they were lying. You almost said they're not all telling the truth.

They're not all telling the truth. And they may not know they're not telling the truth, but they're not. But just to refresh my memory. 1140, 1140 AM on December 24th. From my experience, dealing with a lot of people who steal from cars, steal from houses for drug money, et cetera, they usually don't do it in the middle of the day. It's just not a good practice because people are either home or there's going to be people around who are going to see them do it. So again, this could be an outlier.

See, I said outlier right there. Perfect. No, it's underlying that you always say wrong. Yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes. There we go. So again, it seems like a stretch. And even when you were relaying the information to us, it could be a robbery gone wrong that she was the witness to, or it could be the satanic cult that grabbed her because they wanted to sacrifice a pregnant woman on christmas day to whatever whatever their reasoning would be some pagan gods or something yeah you know all possible right i guess it's all possible but sometimes the most the most the most reasonable explanation is the right one i feel like you're giving like criminals way too

much credit though. You're like, oh, they wouldn't do that during the middle. And I agree with you for the most part. I find it. I find it very odd that they just be like carrying the safe out of this house on, you know, Christmas Eve day. But a lot of times these guys are like desperate for money. They're on drugs. They'll do anything to get money so that they can get their fix. Christmas is a very depressing time for criminals, I hear. It's very lonely. And they usually get through that with drugs and alcohol. So we don't know if they were thinking straight or if they were even caring. I don't know about these people in particular. All I'm saying is- Oh, they got a criminal record as long as your arm. Okay. Both of these guys.

13 years doing it in law enforcement, over 100 arrests every year. When I was in narcotics, I cultivated hundreds of informants every year that we used to catch other bad guys. And based on my experience, the pattern, especially with drug users, especially in my area, which was mostly heroin. They would get their fix at night. They would steal during the night. They would rob these cars, break into them overnight, get their fix early in the morning and sleep most of the day. Now, again, like you just said, I don't know these guys. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, the worst time to work was that 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. in the morning as a patrolman when I was out there,

because that's when all the known drug users were out in the street. And we would get a lot of individuals who were just on the cusp of still breaking into cars and radios, grabbing radios quick, grabbing GPSs. That's what I would look for. That's when we wanted those guys, because what we would try to do is catch those guys in the act so we could flip them. So we knew when to go fishing is what we called it because we knew when those guys were out there and what, what they were looking for. And so that's a lot of the times when we, when I made my arrest, where we could take someone for a misdemeanor and flip them to go, Oh, where are you getting your stuff at? And we would get them into a house where they have, you know, kilos of cocaine so that, you know, you'd flip them for a

bigger grab. But again, I don't know these people, but based on my personal experience as a cop, and some might be different for them. It just, it seems a little bit out of the ordinary. Doesn't mean it's not possible, but I've never come across a case both personally or just from research where, you know, a woman just walking by with her dog. These guys go out of their way to grab her because she might have saw something. Now, if she entered, there was apparently some sort of altercation. That's what I'm saying. This is what Steve and Todd told Sean, the dude that was in the county jail, that she had seen them

and then there was some sort of altercation. But I mean- So Lacey confronted them? Yes. And we do know- What do you believe? Do you believe that? Everybody says Lacey was not afraid to speak her mind.

It's not about what I believe. I believe it's possible. No, based on your research. Based on your research and from seeing the interviews with the families, do you believe that she would be someone who would, again, you don't know her as well as her family, but she would confront. I believe that if she saw something wrong happening, she would confront people. Yes, she would.

She would be like, hey, don't do that. Like the Medina's are out of town and I know they are. And what are you doing in their house? And what are you doing? You know, stealing their safe. Yeah. And it's funny that they picked that house because the Medina's were out of town. So they must have had some sort of information to know that they were out of town because you're not just going to go breaking into people's houses if they could

potentially be inside. But either way, we're going to we're going to take a quick break while I contemplate all these career criminals that, you know, who are just sitting around King Arthur's table, you know, the knights at the round table, like, I will steal, I will pillage, but I shall never harm a woman. There is a code. Believe it or not, there is a code even amongst thieves. I know that there is, but I don't think it's amongst all thieves. I'll refrain from playing. Okay, we're going to go to break.

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In the first 30 days, you'll see shinier coats and increased energy. By day 60, your cat will have a stronger immune system, less shedding, improved joint function, all due to the live nutrients that you've added to their diet. And at 90 days, they're going to have better digestion, reduced inflammation, improved heart health, and you may even have reduced their cancer risk. Fetch a free Jumpstart trial bag for your cat today. Go to trymeowgreens.com. Use promo code trymeow. That's try M-E-O-W. You discover the shipping. You don't have to change your cat's food to improve your cat's health, just add a packet of Meow Greens. Okay, we're back. And there was one other thing I wanted to bring up about this robbery. So remember that Stephen Todd and Glenn Pierce, they said that it wasn't the 24th they were there. It was the 27th. And then the police were like, no, no, it couldn't have been the 27th. And they were like, okay, it was the 26th. But get this. What's happening? What's happening on Covina Avenue after December 24th?

What exactly is happening? A search for a missing woman. Yeah. So what is all over this street? Police and media parked out in front of Scott Peterson's home waiting to get a glimpse of him. So don't you think that any one of those news vans would have seen three guys or two guys stumbling out of the Medina's house, holding a safe and breaking into the house across the street if it had happened on the 26th or the 27th, like Todd and Pierce claimed? Yeah, probably wouldn't have been the best place. Could they have gotten the date wrong?

Didn't you say that earlier? They could be wrong about the date. Yeah, they were wrong about the date when they said it was the 27th. And then the police were like, couldn't have been the date wrong didn't you say that earlier they could be wrong about the date yeah they were wrong about the date when they said was the 27th and then the police were like couldn't have been the 27th because the medinders were back on the 27th right so and it wasn't the 24th right because you guys already said it wasn't the 24th so it must have been the 26th then and they were like yeah yeah the 26th but there's no way the only day it could have been was the 24th because that was the only day that there wasn't a bunch of media and police officers and like camera crews just sitting on Covina Avenue getting pictures of the house and getting footage of Scott walking to his car. They were all over like from sunup to sundown. So I don't believe that it happened on the 26th.

I believe it happened on the 24th, whether it's connected with Lacey going missing. That's a different story. But I just want to put that in there. I think that's fair. Yeah, I think it's fair that it was the 24th. I believe it happened on the 24th. Whether it's connected with Lacey going missing, that's a different story, but I just wanted to put that in there. I think that's fair. Yeah. I think it's fair that it was the 24th. I think it's completely reasonable that these criminals didn't look at their calendar before picking it. They probably don't even have any idea of the day of the week, if they're the type of people we think they are. So I don't think they were like, oh, you know what? Remember we did that robbery on the 24th? That was a crazy one. No, no, Steven, it was the 26th. You sure, buddy? Yeah. And I think whatever the police are inferring or suggesting, if they think it's

going to help them out, they're going to go, yeah, yeah, you're probably right. But we were talking during the break and it would be interesting. We're basing a lot of what they're capable of based on past experience, based on your beliefs. And I would say it would be interesting. We're basing a lot of what they're capable of based on past experience, based on your beliefs. And I would say it would be really telling to kind of pull the records of these guys and see what their past does look like. Because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. And I would be really intrigued to take a look at what their criminal history looks

like. Are they low-level offenders, larcenies, drug convictions, all that stuff? Or are they dangerous individuals where they got multiple felony assaults? As you mentioned, some domestic assaults on there. That could be indicative of what they're capable of. Actually, it is, right? Yeah, because Derek and I were still talking about it over the break. Yeah, we're still arguing. And I was like, yo, you would say if these people are wife beaters, they wouldn't hurt a woman. He was like, well, that's different. And I'm like, yeah, well, we need to know that. Can't you look that up? I could look it up.

Not legally. Not legally. I could do it under my business, but I don't want to lose my firm, so I'm not going to do that. But I'm sure there's a lot of information out there on Reddit. I'm going to find it. You do it. You could find it.

I don't need you, Derek. If the FBI is listening to this, don't take away my credentials. No, he's not going to do it. He's a straight shooter. I'm not going to do that. But I would like to know more about them. No, he's not. He's not going to do it. He's a straight shooter to do that. But but, you know, I would like to know more about them. You know, listen, anybody's capable of it. I'm just going on my experience. But my experience doesn't mean that I can predict what someone that I have never met would do. You know, anything's possible, especially if you give humanity way too much credit because i think anybody everyone's out

to get you i don't think everyone's out to get me everyone i think most people are capable of anything and i would never sometimes i'm like hey i went and got an ice cream you got an ice cream from the ice cream guy do you know what they do with that they get on that and then the government is monitoring what you're paying with i never said that i just got a choco taco from the ice cream shop stephanie can you give me a break said that about the ice cream truck at least. But yeah, I wouldn't go be buying ice cream from an ice cream truck. 45 minutes later, I'm still getting scolded about the snow cone that I got. For a plethora of reasons, I would not buy ice cream from an ice cream truck.

But let's- Here we go. Here she goes. She's off, ladies. It's not those reasons. And gentlemen. It's not those reasons. But I did make a note to myself to find their records.

So I will dive into that tomorrow. And I'll look too. I will look too. I have no problem putting it in, but I'm going to do it the way we would do it for this and not for... I don't have a professional reason to search them, but yeah, I'm sure it's out there. I mean, you do have a professional reason. It's a professional podcast. I'm not actively working. Yes. Yeah. I'm not actively working in this case. I would get in trouble. All right. I'm not going to make you do that. Thank you. All right. So let's talk about Modesto because despite the trendy restaurants and the yoga studios, Modesto wasn't the safest place in the world to live. Modesto has had a crime problem

for some time, and it was named number three of the 12 most dangerous Northern California cities to live in. The crime rate there is 102% higher than the national average and is considered safer than only 3% of the cities in the United States. With over 2,000 violent crimes, 25 murders, 85 rapes, 1,500 aggravated assaults, 10,000 property crimes, and 1,700 auto thefts happening there a year, your chances of becoming a victim in Modesto are about one in eight, which is quite high for anybody who is wondering. Now, what if I told you, Derek, what if I told you a story of a heavily pregnant woman who went missing from her northern California neighborhood in 2002, only to wash up on the shore of San Francisco Bay wearing maternity pants with her head and limbs missing? Who would you think that I was talking about? Lacey Peterson.

But I'm not telling you the story of Lacey Peterson. I'm telling you the story of 24-year-old Evelyn Hernandez, who went missing seven months before Lacey and who was recovered in almost exactly the same state. Evelyn was the mother of a six-year-old son named Alexis, who was reportedly her entire world. She was a great mom. She loved him. And she was looking forward to giving birth to her second Alexis, who was reportedly her entire world. She was a great mom. She loved him.

And she was looking forward to giving birth to her second son, who she planned to name Fernando. Now, this child's father was a mechanic named Herman Aguilar. Evelyn and her son Alexis went missing. She was found dead. She washed up on the shore of San Francisco Bay. And no one knows what happened to Alexis. He's still missing. So obviously this story, although it happened in the same area and around the same time, it got less media attention because Evelyn was an immigrant. She didn't speak English well. She was a poor single mother. Her disappearance was not as headline worthy as Lacey's, but it still happened the same year that Lacey went missing. So obviously, Mark Garagos, Scott's lawyer, he's going to use this

to plant reasonable doubt. And he raised questions about the similarities between Lacey's case and Evelyn's case to the media. And he was like, you know, could the same person have been responsible for the deaths of both women? Perhaps the same satanic cult, you know, because he's really hung up on the satanic cult thing. And law enforcement officials have insisted there's no connection. Obviously, I think the biggest suspect in what happened to Evelyn is her baby daddy, Herman Aguilar. It turns out he was like already married. He had a wife.

He was much older than her. I believe he was 35 or 36 and she was 24. Probably he didn't want to have a baby similar to, you know, Scott Peterson. This whole story sounds awful familiar. certainly looks good for it. And he only had his wife to provide his alibi, which law enforcement thought was enough to not pursue him, although they did go pretty hard on Scott Peterson. And like you just said, these cases sound very, very similar. So why would you give so much media attention to Lacey and not to Evelyn? And then why would you go after Lacey's husband, but not Evelyn's romantic partner whose baby she was carrying?

I mean, are you asking me? I mean, there's definitely socioeconomics in there. Like you said, she was an immigrant. I mean, there's a lot. The story of Lacey Peterson is a lot more polarizing. You have this good-looking couple and this man's successful. And then very quickly, you find out that he's this double life he's living. It's like a movie, right? That's why so many networks are still covering it to this day.

But I'd be lying if I said to you that it wasn't a big part of it is our society and how we view people. It's happening right now. We were talking about it with Gabby Petito. Gabby Petito is getting all this attention, which is warranted. But there are a lot of cases, hundreds of cases out there right now, very similar, involving people of color that do not get covered the same way. And whose fault is that, Derek? Oh, it's the media. It's the media. And I would have to say, in this case, law enforcement's a little bit to blame

because they went so hard for Scott. And we're both going to sit here and think that all these mistakes they made during this investigation were just because they wanted to do the right thing, just because they felt in their hearts he was guilty. They wanted to see him behind bars. But if you're just focused on doing the right thing, why not go after Herman Aguilar with the same fervor that they went after Scott? Because if you just want to see these horrible guys who murder their love interests go to prison, then why not go after Herman Aguilar? It seemed that the Peterson case was lucrative

and profitable, not only for the media, but maybe for Modesto police a little bit. And I don't mean lucrative and profitable in the sense of money, but in the sense of exposure, in the sense of, I mean, you still got these detectives, Brocchini and the other one, Bueller or Mueller, I forget his name. But they're still going on every single like show that has to do with Lacey and Scott Peterson. They're still, you know, in there telling their side of the story, like defending themselves, etc. So it just seemed like they were like, oh, this is the one that's going to get the headlines. So this is where we need to be. And obviously, these are two different police forces. I'm not trying to obviously these are two different police forces i'm not trying to say i was just

gonna say that yeah yeah i'm not trying to say that like brokeen but i'm saying overall we wish we want law enforcement to kind of be like consistent across the board like go after the bad guys do it in a legit way they're not okay yeah every police department is different some are better than others it's just it's just like you go to certain restaurants the service is better than others because they are humans. They're not robots. And the only argument I'll make, and I'll get heat for this, but that's fine because I feel like I do have to say something. I could also make the opposite argument that Scott Peterson being a white male and Herman Aguilar, his last name Aguilar, being someone of color, you would think the

police would go after him harder than Scott, where in actuality, they were really going hard for Scott and not so much for Herman. Because we do see a lot of narratives out there where it's like, oh, if this so-and-so was a white person, they wouldn't have tried to convict him so hard. So I think there's truth to it. I started by saying socioeconomics play a role in it. She's an immigrant, probably doesn't come from someone with money, doesn't have her family out there vocally speaking about it, exposing it to the media, putting public pressure on it. So all those factors play a role in how hard these law enforcement agencies work, because here's the reality. These detectives are working the case, but behind the scenes,

the mayor is right on the chief of police's ass and it you know shit rolls downhill so it gets down to these detectives were like we need to solve where when evelyn's case i don't know if anybody was fighting for her they shouldn't have to so i'm not justifying they should have to and those people are called no i'm saying no one should have to no one should have to say evelyn should get the same treatment it should just be it should just happen but because evelyn's family i don't know the specifics of the case. I didn't even know it occurred until you brought it up. Because no one was out there going to the media about it, maybe family members, whatever it may be, it just didn't get the same attention that it should.

And I also do think based on the police department that was handling it. There's a lot of variables that I definitely am not versed enough on to know what the situation was, but it's not fair. I think that's a pretty simple thing to say, right? It's not fair. Not fair and yeah, inconsistent. Right. But that's not what Garagos was doing here. I don't know how much he really cared about Evelyn's case. Again, he was just trying to relate it to Scott's case. And again, at another level of doubt, whereas if the first two things didn't work, where there was a robbery or the satanic ritual, or it was a robbery involving individuals, part of a satanic cult, or it was this case, he was again, just, hey, let me throw it all

up there. See what, you know, maybe something resonates with one of these jury members. Maybe something different resonates with different jury member. It doesn't matter. So, you know, clearly that was his intention behind it. I don't, I think that's what a good lawyer would do. Right. You agree. I agree. But do you, do you feel like this is the weakest argument out of the three that you've relayed to me so far? I don't know if more is coming, but out of the three, I think the robbery, I think the satanic cult theory,

these right here saying like, Oh, you know, they just went extra hard for Scott. That's why we're here. Do you think that's out of the three? Which one do you think is the most compelling? The robbery. I agree. But while we're talking about the satanic cult thing again, it's going to come back into play when we talk next episode about when Conor and Lacey washed up on shore, it's crazy because there was stuff I found out that I had never heard before that was not reported a lot in mainstream media. But I do want to talk about the satanic cult for a minute because in 1990, four people were murdered in Salida, California.

This is a town that's less than eight miles away from Modesto. It was the work of what the papers called a local satanic cult. And it was reported that this group of people believed the murder of a newborn baby was the purest sacrifice. There was even a witness, a neighbor of the Petersons, who told police they saw a pregnant woman being shoved into a van. And another eyewitness saw a shady looking man driving a tan or brown van on Christmas Eve right around the Covina Avenue area. And this witness saw the man in the van 10 minutes before he saw a pregnant woman walking her dog in the neighborhood. One of the attorneys who defended this cult in court, they told the Baltimore Sun that he didn't think the theory of people like this being responsible for what had happened to Lacey was too far-fetched. Because although five members of this cult, and this cult was called

the Order of the Lion, they were eventually imprisoned for the murders, he said there were many more members of this group who were still operating on the outside. Modesto police did pursue this theory, they claim, but they also said that if there was an organized satanic group working in their city, they would know about it, even though, you know, the Salida police hadn't known about this cult lion, the Order of the Lion cult, running around Salida before they killed these people in 1990. So I think that's a little bit cocky to be like, yeah, there's a satanic cult hanging around Modesto. Believe me, we'll know about it. The whole point of a satanic cult is to not be found out. So I kind of thought that was a bit dismissive.

It is tough because it's not a common thing that you hear about. We actually had something that was taking place in the woods in the city that I worked in where we were seeing remnants of some type of devil worship going on. And so we started putting patrols out there. We had found a couple of dead cats, a couple of dead chickens. And I will say this, what we found in our case, kind of relating to this, is that it was not even a satanic thing. It was a cultural thing. We have a very diverse community and the sacrifice of certain animals was part of their culture. And to not get into the specifics, we found some of the people that were doing it and told them they couldn't do that anymore. They never admitted to it,

but we just let them know like, hey, if you're doing this, you can't do it anymore. Because there are a lot of cultures that, you know, slaughter animals and, you know, I don't want to get too off the beaten path, but yeah, it wasn't a satanic cult. We thought it could be in that particular case. I don't know. I, you know, I'm not going to lie to you guys. I don't believe this as a possible theory. So I think that's why it's coming off as I'm kind of being dismissive as well. So I'll just, I'll just own that because I don't think that's what happened to Lacey. Um, and if I'm proven wrong one day, then I just have to eat my words, but I think I'm having trouble processing it and like taking it for what it is, which I, I usually am pretty good at, but here it just seems like, as you said it a few minutes ago, the robbery theory, I think

has some legs to it where that's something that I would consider. I think the idea that she was walking the dog and something happened just where somebody grabbed her because they wanted to rape her, whatever, that's plausible as well. I don't see this as a plausible theory, but I could be wrong, I guess. I'm just having trouble really owning it and investing into it because I just don't believe it personally. That's okay. Is that fair for me to say?

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And maybe it scares you a little bit. Maybe that's it. Maybe I'm frightened by it and I don't want these guys coming from me. And so I'm just going to stay away from it. You don't want them to just be having their little Derek Levasseur voodoo doll and sticking pins in it.

Like, you don't believe in us, huh? That's it. And I'm actually going to go call my mom. But while I'm calling my mom, we're going to take one final break. We'll be right back with you guys. Okay, we're back. On December 27th, the police searched Scott's office warehouse in Modesto. Two of the most relevant things they found in this warehouse was a pair of needle-nosed

pliers that had what the police initially said was one strand of hair stuck to them, and they also found several rings of cement residue on Scott's wooden boat trailer. The pliers were found in Scott's boat, and the hair attached to it was removed and tested against two strands of hair removed from Lacey Peterson's hairbrush. Karen Kosberg, an FBI trace evidence expert, testified that the hair found on the pliers was consistent with the hair of Lacey Peterson, but the defense questioned the collection method of this evidence because apparently detectives testified that they'd only collected one strand of hair, but months later they discovered there were two strands of hair in the evidence envelope. Sarah Yoshida, a state criminalist, testified she found no signs

of blood or tissue on the pliers and the tool was rusty and it wasn't recently used. Like this was clearly not something that was recently used. Prosecutors tried to frame this piece of hair as significant because they were telling the jury that Lacey had never been on Scott's boat and she didn't even know he purchased one, which we now know may not be true. And at this time, the report of the eyewitnesses seeing Lacey at Scott's warehouse had not yet emerged because, conveniently, it was missing from the police report. Now, on the wooden trailer, law enforcement saw four to five cement residue rings. Apparently, it's very common for fishermen to make their own anchors. And as we

know, you fish all the time, fish all the time. Is that true? Do you all make your own anchors? No, not that. But I guess I don't fish enough. I just bought my anchor on Amazon. Well, it's just a simple process of using like a plastic bucket, pouring cement inside, stick a piece of rebar through it, tie a string. But the issue was the police only found one cement anchor in Scott's boat. So they felt that the multiple outlines on the trailer meant he'd made several anchors and then used these to weigh Lacey's body down so she would sink to the bottom of the bay.

Now, when the police asked Scott, you know, why didn't you just buy an anchor instead of making one? He informed them that he had done the bay. Now, when the police asked Scott, you know, why didn't you just buy an anchor instead of making one? He informed them that he had done the math, $30 for an anchor or $3 for a bag of cement. The police also found a piece of paper with a phone number written on it. And then there was also the number 30 written on it. So they called the number and they got a boating store. And the police were like, hey, what does the number 30 mean to you guys? And they were like, well, we sell anchors for $30. So, I mean, there's something to that, that maybe he just wanted to make his own anchors. Scott told the police he'd used the rest of the concrete at his home in September.

And Scott's computer showed notes that he made for himself where he was doing the math. And he was budgeting for 10 60-pound bags of concrete so that he could put up a fence. So he needed them for fence posts. And after the fence was complete, Scott returned three unused bags of concrete to Lowe's. Now, during the trial, the prosecution experts claimed the concrete used for the fence posts was not the same as the concrete that was used for the anchor. But the defense experts claimed that it was. So once again, we have a he said, she said thing like everybody pays for their experts, everybody pays for their witnesses, and they're going to basically just say whatever their side wants them to say. So I feel like it's one of those things we'll never know

if the concrete in the anchor was the same as the concrete used at Scott'sott's house yeah i didn't even know there was an ability to tell i mean i'm sure there is with different fibers and the makeup and the content of the concrete but you you do hit a great point where it's just a it's part of the game where these the prosecutor the defense can interview these experts before putting them on the stand and they're not going to tell you what to say as the expert but they may interview these experts before putting them on the stand. And they're not going to tell you what to say as the expert, but they may interview five experts. And the one who tells them what they want to hear is going to be the one who gets hired. Pretty much. That's how it works. That's how it works. So the expert, to be fair to the experts, because I do, I've testified, I know

my friend, a lot of colleagues of mine are experts. They all have differing opinions because a lot of it's not a science. So they may be interviewed for a case and they may have a differing opinion from their two other colleagues. But if the defense is looking for their version of it, guess who's going on the stand? So, you know, and then adversely, the same thing will happen for the prosecution. They may interview three people. If two of them give some credence to the defense, they're not going to put those guys in it because they're going to hurt their case. That's the system we live in. Love it or hate it.

Hate it. That is the world we live in. That's why a lot of people have a lot of issues with the courts because it's not even close to perfect. It's like a game. It's literally like they're just playing a game with each other and it's sparring and it's like they get off on it. Sometimes the better attorney wins. That's why you see sometimes the better attorney wins. You know, like that's why these high-priced attorneys get brought in for these celebrity cases, not because it looks good, but because they're really good at what they do. You know, and so these high-value people can afford them because they know it's not necessarily a matter of whether they're guilty or not.

It's just their lawyer being better than the prosecution. I wonder who was paying for Mark Garagos. Family members, right? Obviously. I would say so. Yeah. Family members and maybe secret admirers. Didn't they start a fund? Is that this case where you said they started a fund? No. I mean, they have. They have since. Since he's been in prison. No, I don't think so. But not during. So it was just on the backs of the family. Yeah. Got it. Well, Scott claims he did not make multiple anchors. He only made one anchor.

He said the residue on the trailer was from other attempts to make an anchor that failed. And many people online who have made their own boat anchors, they claim that, yeah, sometimes, usually it takes a few attempts to make the anchor because you got to get the mix right. And if you don't do it often and it's not something you're used to, that could take four or five tries. So other than the ambiguous circles on the boat trailer, there is no evidence that Scott made multiple anchors. These anchors have never been found, even though from the time Lacey went missing to the time she was recovered, the bay was checked with dive teams and sonar equipment no less than 27 times. No homemade cement anchors were recovered ever. Very significant. I mean, the water, it's a big area, but because Lacey was so badly decomposed, she more than likely, even if she were tied to

anchors, would not still be tied to them. The skin would have eroded around. She was not, no. Yeah. It would have decomposed around her areas where she was secured and she would have eroded around. She was not, no. Yeah, it would have decomposed around her areas where she was secured and she would have floated away. And that's why she wouldn't be found for a certain period of time. I will say this, and you haven't got into the real specifics of her being recovered yet.

We're going to get there. I'm sure we'll get into the details. And I'm looking forward to that because I really want to know- You're looking forward to that? It's gruesome. It's the worst part. Well, we're here to dissect it.

We're here to break it down. So we got to desensitize ourselves to a certain degree and do it. But I'm interested because just like in the Robin Pope case, the fact that she was floating, we were able to explain that based on gases, all those things. And I really want to go into that with Lacey as well

because is it possible that she had been secured by something or tied down, whether it was Scott or someone else, and that would explain why it took so long? Yeah. What is it possible that she had been secured by something or tied down, whether it was Scott or someone else, and that would explain why it took so long? Yeah. So check this out. April. April, she came up. So check this out. When Lacey washed up on shore, she was basically just a torso. Her head was missing. Her arms were missing. Her legs were missing. Doesn't get a surprise. Four months. So what the prosecution's theory was is Scott took these anchors. So he's got one that you can see, but he's got four others that he made. And he affixed them to her arms and her legs.

And the weight of the anchors, as her body started to decompose, basically pulled her limbs off. Connective tissue gone. Very, very plausible theory. I will say that. I agree. gone. Very, very plausible theory. I will say that. I agree. Absolutely. All four limbs are missing. But where are the anchors? Listen, again, we talked about it with Robin Pope. This body of water, huge, massive. Huge, San Francisco Bay, yeah.

We may think that they're going to be able, we are not at a point right now, technologically, where we can cover every square foot of the ground. And even though we can do use sonar, it's not only finding it, but it's identifying it as you're going over that specific area to go, Hey, that looks like a circular anchor. Well, they did find, they did find another anchor. It wasn't, I'm sure they found a lot of, yeah, I'm sure they found a lot. It's possible, but is it possible that they missed this, you know, four square feet of the San Francisco Bay where these anchors are? And could it be really, really deep where they wouldn't even detect it? I don't know. Because the deeper it goes, the less accurate the sonar is. Yeah. And she was only found, she was found in only a couple feet of water, right? I believe she washed up on shore. She washed up on shore. So we don't know if she

was dumped in the water, how deep she was. You would assume it was very deep where they went, whoever it was. I'm going to say Scott's name because Scott is currently guilty of murder. So I'm going to say if Scott brought her out there, I'm assuming he didn't dump her in four feet of water. And so if he dumped her way out in the middle of the bay even though it was dangerous based on the boat he was in it would be very very difficult well actually the prosecution the prosecution claims that he dumped her uh near brooks island remember that island that he that he thought you know that he saw no dumping sign and that's where he sort of was like trolling around the prosecution believes that's where he had dumped her because based, and we'll go into

this next time, but based on like currents and things like that, it would have brought her body right to where it was found if she was dumped there. Brooks Island is not a super deep area. My thing is this though, he told them he was trolling near that area, correct? Why the, would you, and I just swore, but I'm playing it out. Why would you tell them where you were trolling? If it was anywhere near, you didn't want them to go. Why would he say he went to San Francisco Bay then at all? Why would he say he went to Berkeley Marina? Well, I mean, I think that's going to be, if you say you

didn't go to San Francisco Bay, they're probably going to find evidence that you're lying. But if you say you were out trolling and there was nobody around and I, listen, if I knew I was in sector A where I dumped the body, I'm going to tell you that I was in sector Z. I'm definitely not going to tell you I was in sector B. You know what I mean? It's just, you don't, you can be a moron and know that. So I think wherever he was telling you to look or wherever he suggested you were, you

know, he might be, if he knew this was going the way it was going, I don't think he would help you if he was responsible. And again, it's a big area. It's a big area to cover. And as much hours as they probably put in in that water, it's very possible. And I know a couple of dive experts. I can compare it with them. I have a couple of FBI dive experts. Actually, Bobby Chacon, who's a friend of mine, might have been the guy because he was still on the FBI when this happened. He was in charge of the dive team. He might have been the one that worked this case. I could call him. You should call him and ask him.

But that brings us to another Jackie Peterson-ism. So on January 26, 2003, Scott's phones are tapped at this point. And he calls home and he's talking to his mom. And Scott said, you know, Detective Grogan called me today and told him the police were back again searching in the bay. And Scott's mother asked, is Detective Grogan crazy? Why did he call you? And Scott said, you know, I think he's just trying to get a reaction out of me. And Scott's mother said, quote, i can't imagine anyone being stupid enough

to say they went fishing in the berkeley bay after having committed a crime there i mean not even you scott yikes yeah it kind of gives you like it kind of gives you an indication of how scott's treated by his parents like they may pull him up and he's the golden boy but it seems they also you know there's two sides to that. Like they also have a little bit of a sharp tongue with him, like not even you're that stupid. But I mean, it's a good it's a good point. Like because even if she's found in the bay, if she's ever found, that's where she's going to be found. And that's where he put himself that morning. What I say earlier, sometimes the right answer is the simple one.

You know, I mean, these cases are not just like these criminals. They're not just going to solve it for you. They're going to make you work. And sometimes you might not have the connecting dot, which, you know, which is the big headline with this whole case, right? Like not having that definitive thing that says, yep, got them, you know, and that's why so many people think he's innocent, or I should say some people think he's innocent. But yeah, I think that's a good button for that segment where it's like, listen, I personally don't believe that Scott would lead them anywhere near where he was if he in fact killed Lacey, which according to the courts, he did. Yeah. Well, I want to ask you that question again in a little bit after we get to

another part, because there's a theory about that. But I want to talk about some more dogs first, because they didn't just bring a police dog to the Peterson home. They brought dogs to Berkeley Marina to check for Lacey's scent there and to check for signs of foul play in the warehouse and on Scott's boat. One of the dogs' name was Trimble, and he picked up Lacey's scent near the parking lot of the marina, and then he led his handler to a pylon near the end of the pier, at which point Trimble stopped, checked the wind current, and indicated that the trail had ended. So obviously, the police are like, okay, this shows you, because Trimble says so, that Scott put Lacey in his boat, and that's why he stopped at that pylon near the end of the pier.

Now, during trial, Mark Garagos argued that the scent article Trimble had used, a pair of Lacey's sunglasses, they had been compromised because the sunglasses had been in Lacey's purse, and Scott had handled both the purse and the sunglasses, so Trimble could have been picking up Scott's scent at the marina. Christopher Boyer, a volunteer captain for the Contra Costa Sheriff's Department, agreed that Trimble would smell Scott on Lacey's glasses, but he also said the dogs were trained to pick up only the scent of the person that they were supposed to track. And if Trimble had been following Scott's scent, the dog would have followed a trail that led to the ticket booth and the parking lot and all of this, which I don't know how much I believe because Trimble did go to the parking lot. Garagos also mentioned that Trimble had failed her certification twice, and she had a 75% failure rate when tracking human scents.

Another dog was brought in. This dog's name was TJ. TJ had a 75% success rate in tracking human scents, and he also used Lacey's slipper as a scent article instead of the sunglasses. But TJ did not pick up Lacey's scent at the marina people hear it and they go oh the dog tracked on it got him man these dogs they they're the blessing and a curse and i only know this because i was literally in charge of the canine unit and they were literally they gave me some of my biggest headaches so but they were cute too aren't they these not the ones that we had shout out axel he's no longer on the force but shout out ax Axel. I mean, these dogs would bite us. They would bite us literally because they bite anything that gets in your way. They would literally bite my other officers on search warrants and stuff. So the point is these dogs are not perfect.

They're only as good as their handlers. And as I said earlier, not even knowing this part was going to be in here, the defense attorneys will bring up their resumes because you do have to keep a running log of not only the training that these dogs are performing, but also their success rates and being able to differentiate between two different scents. You guys can look it up online. They'll put different drugs in a tire than a cone and they'll have them hit. And if they get it wrong, it's not like you can just swipe that to the side. They're supposed to be documenting that, which in this case, clearly they were,

and it was used against them. But to be fair, it should be. If the dog is not very good at what it does, that should be known to the jury. So I actually do not have a problem with this. I think it's a good move by Garagos to bring this up. Yeah. And I mean, if you think about it, both the dogs were kind of wrong because if you go by Garagos's theory that Lacey had been at the warehouse just a couple of days before, you'd think that TJ would have picked up her scent there. But if you go by the theory that Lacey was never there, Trimble picking up her scent was also false. So I don't feel like it tells us anything. Yeah, it kind of washes. it kind of cancels each other out right so and you know it's nothing i love the canines i am a huge advocate for i think every

police department should have a canine unit i just know that there are downfalls with them and you have to use it as a tool but not the sole tool yeah i remember when we were in nashville they had like a whole like like thing of puppies they were adopting and i was like there get in here with me and let the puppies crawl on you and he was like i'll just watch so i do love dogs i love them i think they're great but i just from the these canines are really they're they're they're weapons they're tools that's how you have to view them we love them you can't other officers aren't petting them it's not like that it's not like you see in the movies so you know i just understand that there It's not like you see in the movies. So, you know, I just understand that there are-

That makes me sad. You know, the handlers take good care of them. But I just know that there's a lot of cases where we've had dogs locate drugs and the first thing that will get subpoenaed from the defense attorneys is, hey, I want a log of all of your dog's training, any seizures they've been responsible for, any times where they've seized something and it's gotten thrown out, they've been responsible for, any times where they've seized something and it's gotten thrown out, they have the right to have all that. So we have to give that to them before it goes to court so that they can review it and decide whether or not

it would work in their favor. Well, in the aftermath of Lacey's disappearance, Sharon Rocha and the rest of her family rallied behind Scott. She told the media, quote, If you knew Scott, you wouldn't have any doubt. I've never even known the two of them to have an argument or harsh words with each other. They've just always been a team, end quote. Scott himself was avoiding the media and the cameras at all costs. And you could say that's normal because, you know, they were obnoxiously camped out in front of his house. They were accosting him every time he walked in or out, but he was avoiding them everywhere and at all times. And usually you'd see the husband of a missing woman appealing to the public for help or sending a message to his wife's potential

abductor to bring her home. But Scott did not want to be on camera. His mother, Jackie, she didn't have any problem talking to the media. She told them that she felt like she was living in Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union because her son was being unfairly attacked by the public and like unfairly persecuted by the police and suspected without any evidence. Now, if Jackie thought that Scott was under public suspicion at that point, she hadn't seen anything yet since behind the scenes at the Modesto police, they were keeping their star witness under lock and key and away from the prying eyes of the media. In the week leading up to Christmas, Amber Fry had been doing her own investigation into her new, too-good-to-be-true boyfriend, Scott Peterson. She and a friend who was good with computers started searching around online for Scott, and a few names seemed like they might fit.

So Amber started calling these people and like trying to see if it was her or Scott Peterson, but none of them were Scott. Amber decided to call an old friend named Richard Bird, who was a police officer in Fresno. She left him a message and he called her back on her way home from church. Amber stopped over to Richard's place and told him about her new boyfriend, how amazing he was, how he called her sweetie, and that made her melt. And Richard and his roommate were like, sweetie, he's only calling you sweetie because he's dating so many women. He doesn't want to like accidentally call you by the wrong name. And she was like, no, no, no. But still, you know, I would like you to look into him and make sure like he's legit. So Richard said he would look into Scott for Amber and get a hold of her if he found out anything odd. This was December 28th,

and Scott called Amber twice that night, but they were never able to connect. So even after Lacey goes missing, and he's under all this scrutiny, he's still hitting Amber up every single day. Yeah. What are you picking up from that? What are you picking up from that as far as if you're a detective, what does that suggest to you? If you're starting to try to build a case, we talk about these things, what does that suggest to you if you're starting to try to build a case we talk about these things what does that fall under what do you mean was it a fall he's still trying to like he's still pursuing this relationship even though his wife's missing which means he doesn't seem to be too worried about his wife being missing so what does that give more leverage or i should say credence to motive yes right if you're under the belief that he killed his wife for this other woman, and yet while she's missing, he's calling kill his wife, most people would not be calling their

mistress in the middle of a search for his pregnant wife. Like I said, even if he didn't love her anymore, whatever, just out of respect, he would not be calling the mistress that he's been having an affair with. And yet that was something that was concerning to him. It was a priority for him. So anybody out there, when we talk about means motive opportunity, even though this is after the event, I think most reasonable people, especially a jury member, would look at this and say, clearly this guy was infatuated with Amber and had an obsession with being with her, which would definitely lean into the idea that

he had to get rid of Lacey in order to be with Amber. Yeah, it's crazy because you'd think like if you know the police are suspicious of you, you think like they're maybe monitoring your phone calls or they're going to ask you at some point like to see your phone. And he's just kind of shameless about it. So the next night, Richard Bird called Amber and he said he had found a Scott Peterson who lived in Modesto. But this Scott Peterson was in the process of searching for his missing wife. Amber told Richard, no, this cannot be my Scott because my Scott lives alone in a big house in Sacramento. So she told Richard, you know, just keep looking. And he said he would before hanging up.

Just a few hours later, Richard called back and his voice was more serious when he told Amber that the Scott Peterson whose wife was missing fit Amber's description of her boyfriend. He worked for Trade Corps and his missing wife was eight months pregnant. Richard told Amber to call the Modesto police immediately, which she did at 1.43 in the morning. As Amber was trying to explain her situation to the dispatcher, she kind of wanted to verify. And she was like, the Scott Peterson whose wife is missing, like, what's his date of birth? And the dispatcher told her, and it happens that this is the exact same date of birth as her boyfriend, Scott Peterson. So at this point, she sort of knew.

And the next morning, Amber called again to the police. And she was like, why didn't you guys call me back? And they were like, sorry, you know, we should have called you back. But as Amber's once again trying to explain her situation over again to a new person, Detective Al Brocchini happened to be walking by the dispatch desk and he heard a bit of the conversation, so he took the phone. Al Brocchini and John Buehler drove right over to Amber's place. They told her they had been praying for someone like her to come forward. Amber told them everything. She told them that she was still seeing Scott, not physically seeing him, but they were still dating. He called her every day. And at that point, the police felt they had hit the jackpot. Not only could they prove Scott was a cheater,

but he was still cheating and he was still lying, even with his wife and child missing, which certainly spoke to his character and his weak relationship with the truth. So if he can compulsively lie to Amber, he can lie to the police. So they asked Amber if she would be willing to record her conversations with Scott, and she agreed. The next day was December 31st, New Year's Eve, and a candlelight vigil attended by more than 1,000 people was held for Lacey and Connor at East La Loma Park. Scott called Amber at 4.18 p.m. on December 31st, and he told her he was in Paris. He said he was, you know, running along the cobblestones in Paris. He was like, oh, this is so great here. The Eiffel Tower is all lit up for the occasion. There's fireworks shooting into the sky. He talked about

his crazy friend from Spain, Pascual, and how he and his friends were having a great time. In reality, Scott was not in Paris. He was standing amongst a crowd of people in East Loma Park, a crowd of people that were praying for the safe return of his wife and child while he was making calls to his girlfriend, telling her that he missed her and he couldn't wait to see her. So during the vigil, Lacey's parents and her brother, they got up and thanked everyone for being there. But Scott stayed amongst the crowd wearing a ball cap. He never got up on stage with Lacey's family. He never addressed the crowd. He was photographed several times. And these photographs have come into question because

he's like smiling and he's laughing and he seems to be having like a grand old time. Some people who know Scott, friends of his who were there, they're like, this is taken out of context. You just caught pictures of him playing with the kids and, you know, he's trying to put on a good face. But what certainly can't be denied is that Scott wanted to make sure that the news cameras present at that park that night were not seeing him standing in front of the crowd talking about his wife, how much he missed her and how much he wanted to come back. And why did he not want the cameras to see him? Because he didn't want Amber to see him on TV talking about how his wife was missing, his pregnant wife was missing. Yeah. And, you know, I'm sitting here writing all this down as you're talking. And again, looking at it as a detective detective hearing the story that you just told and the

extent that he's willing to go to to lie and manipulate this woman is this someone capable of creating an alibi yeah for the for the murder of his wife. Is he willing to go to that extent where he would plan out a story that couldn't be discredited when he's willing to do this in the middle of the search? I think most people would say yes. Yeah. So when you talk about credibility, as the detectives are hearing this, they're not saying he murdered his wife because he's a cheater. They're saying he murdered his wife because he's a liar. Yeah. And he's lying to this woman's a cheater. They're saying he murdered his wife because he's a liar. Yeah. And he's lying to this woman that supposedly he loves, you know, Amber.

And he's doing it in the middle of a search for his missing pregnant wife. So he has lost all credibility as far as they're concerned. I'm going to play a little clip of this call, but he's just so ridiculous. And then later, Amber was talking to him on the phone and she heard a dog barking. She's like, what's that? And he's like, oh, the stupid dog next to the hotel. It's so loud. It was his dog, Mackenzie, barking in the background.

And he was telling Amber it was the dog next to his hotel in Paris. So, yeah, not only is he a good liar, but he's a compulsive liar who is able to lie easily, quickly without having to put too much thought into it. He's a pathological. I mean, he's a pathological liar. Yeah. I mean, he's he has a sickness. I mean, really, he really does. And I mean, I think he enjoys it, too.

Like he's like, oh, what kind of lies can I create? Listen, let's give him a little let's let's let's try to discuss me to do this. But you're cheating on your wife. You're playing up this whole spiel that you got this house in Sacramento. You're doing all these things because you like this woman, you want to get laid, whatever the reason be, we don't care. As soon as your wife goes missing, right? If you didn't have anything to do with it, I still think most individuals, if they were that Scott Peterson would say, Hey, I got to tell you something. I was lying to you. I was lying to you. I have feelings for you.

I wanted to be with you. I was going to, but this went south. There's something going on. My wife, or maybe soon to be ex-wife, or, you know, if I stayed with you, was pregnant and she's gone. I'm sorry that you had to find out this way. I can't talk to you. I got to figure this out. I got to find him.

Not Scott. No. Not Scott. But do you think, I mean, from a woman's perspective, am I am I giving too much credit again? Like, or do you think most men, if they were had been doing what Scott was doing, would come clean at this point because they know the press or whatever is going to it's going to get back to her eventually? Or do you think most guys would continue this lie, not only continue this lie, but double down on it? I don't think either of those things. I think I don't think that a normal man would be like, oh, I've been lying to you. My wife's been missing.

I just think he would have ghosted her for a while. Yeah. I think that's fair. Yeah. I think that's fair too. He would just not call, not answered calls, and then came up with some like, oh, I was in Europe and my international plan wasn't working or some shit. But not this extent.

No. This is like he enjoys it. It's like a game. He likes living the double life. He loves it. It's like a game. He likes living the double life. He loves it. It's weird. He's psychotic. Or is it possible that the only reason this is taking place is because he wants to be with Amber.

So above all, he has to maintain that relationship. Yeah, but like you said, he knew he had her already. Okay. So if you go off the grid for a week, a week and a half and you come up with. He can, yeah. Yeah. He can make up something to make that plausible. Yeah.

Especially no disrespect to Amber, but she wasn't exactly a PI. I mean, she wasn't, she, she saw what she wanted to believe and he knew it. Right. She wasn't exactly, you know,

pounding the pavement to find out the truth was, but that's, we won't go there. We're not hating on Amber. We're not hating on Amber. Love you girl. Love you girl. Love you girl. Queen. Stephanie loves everybodyie loves everybody no i don't who's the last one you last uh asha's brother yeah i love o'connor anyways i apologize asia degree asia yeah yes we suck

so then the modesto police held a press conference right they did something a bit unprecedented at this point scott peterson had not been named as a person of interest or a suspect We suck. So then the Modesto police held a press conference, right? They did something a bit unprecedented. At this point, Scott Peterson had not been named as a person of interest or a suspect. But the police showed pictures of Scott's truck, his boat, his trailer, his warehouse, and they asked the public for help verifying his alibi. So the police said Scott claimed to have been at Berkeley Marina fishing on the morning of the 24th. So they wanted anyone who believed that they may have seen him there or seen anything strange to call into the tip line. When the police asked directly whether Scott was a suspect, they responded that they could not get into that. So journalist Ted Rowland, he's local to Modesto.

He was one of the first people who was reporting on Lacey's disappearance, he said, quote, basically by asking the public for information about the husband of the missing person, you're telling the public that we think he might be guilty here. And at that point, everyone realized Scott's on their radar big time, end quote. What this also did was give the location of where Scott had been on Christmas Eve morning, which his defense team and supporters have used to show that someone else could have taken Lacey, killed her, and put her body in the bay right where Scott had been fishing in order to frame him. Or, you know, not even necessarily to frame him, but they're like, oh shit, we killed this woman, you know, but everyone's looking at her husband and now we

know exactly where he was on Christmas Eve morning. So, you know, he's done our work for us. And they even put up an enormous billboard, a local radio station called Talk 910 AM. They put up this billboard and it featured Scott Peterson's face with the words, man or monster, vote innocent or guilty. That's a tough one. What do you think about that press conference? Is it common for police to do that? If they're not naming somebody as a suspect, you're kind of making them a suspect now. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that's pretty aggressive. I'll say that. It's aggressive for sure. Well, more suspicion arose when it was reported that Scott had sold Lacey's car and he was talking to a real estate agent about selling the home that he and Lacey had lived in. But it wasn't as simple as that. The police had taken both Scott's truck and Lacey's SUV into custody on December 26th. And by the 1st of February, they still had not returned Scott's truck to Scott.

They returned Lacey's SUV, but not his truck. So Scott claimed that he hadn't sold Lacey's car because he knew that she wasn't coming back, as the police suggested. He had traded it in for a truck so that he could continue working because he'd been contacting the Modesto PD several times to find out when they were going to return his truck to him, but they still had not. So he needed a vehicle to work out of. As for selling the house, Scott gave multiple reasons for that. Firstly, he said he had been getting threats like death threats. There was people constantly outside the house yelling, throwing things, calling him a murderer. And there had been a couple attempted break-ins

at his home. Someone had also driven a vehicle through the front door of Scott's warehouse. And Scott's brother told the police that he and Scott talked about this, and Scott said, quote, we're not staying there. There's no way if Lacey comes back that we're staying there, end quote. It also seemed as if Lacey and Scott had been planning to move anyways. Lacey had talked to a realtor in May of 2002 about finding her listings for homes that were located halfway between Modesto and San Diego. And Lacey's brother Brent had told the police that Lacey was planning to move to the coast. And even Lacey's mother Sharon admitted that her daughter wanted to move into a bigger house. Then we have the

life insurance policy, which was also used by police and prosecutors to illustrate a motive. A relative of Lacey's had told the police that Scott had taken out a $250,000 insurance policy on his wife shortly before she went missing. But in reality, Scott and Lacey had he didn't want to be a father, getting life insurance 18 months before Lacey would even be pregnant, it would seem like a strange move if that was his motive. And the man who sold the Petersons their policies said that initially Scott had only wanted a $100,000 policy for Lacey, but she was the one who insisted that they up it and she argued that their policies should be equal. This was not what the Modesto police told Lacey's parents on January

15th, 2003. I'll say this. I hear what they're saying as far as, hey, he couldn't have known that his wife was going to get pregnant and taken out this policy because of that. However, when considering murdering your wife, could a factor of it be, hey, I know there's a $250,000 policy for her as well to maybe further incentivize him to do this because that money would help him maybe create the life that he's been portraying to this other woman. I agree with you, but that's not what the police said. They said, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'm looking at it from my angle where I'm evaluating all of it and I get it. And we've already established that the police screwed up a lot here. So if we start going off of what they're doing, then we might as well just stop right now.

That's not what the prosecution said either. They use this life insurance policy in court to be like, see, he took it out planning to kill her. He took it out for her. Yeah. No, I didn't see it that way. Even, I know that's what they did, but I don't see it that way. I see it as, if you're considering, all right, I'm in a relationship with this woman. I'm married to her.

I want to be in a relationship with this other woman. I've been presenting myself as this financially well-off guy to her. I know my wife's never going to go for it. I got to find a way to get out of one and get another one. I can get rid of Lacey. And if I do it the right way, I can end up with a quarter of a million dollars. Yeah. It was the cherry on top. Yeah. It could have incentivized him more to go that route as opposed to just leaving her, right? We don't know. So that could have been the reason where he go that route as opposed to just leaving her, right? We don't know.

So that could have been the reason where he said, I can't just leave her. I want the money. So do I think it could still be a motive regardless of how the prosecution or detectives presented it? Yeah, I do. Forget what they said. I think they went at it the wrong way. And they opened themselves up to have a dissenting opinion come in like this which again shame on them have we seen this before where prosecution a la oj simpson comes at it from a wrong angle you want him to try the glove on you want him to try the glove on and then it blows up in your face well

here's an example of it the glove don't fit you must acquit was a was insistent on making him try that glove on had to do it it. Shot their shot, man. They shot their shot, all right. Shot themselves in the foot. Dad jokes. Come on. Fish all the time. Fish all the time. So Amber, she'd been recording her conversations with Scott for over two weeks. She was mainly concerned with trying to get him to say something that would incriminate him and

his wife's disappearance, even though she was still pretending not to know about it and he was still pretending that it wasn't happening. At the beginning of February, though, Amber was basically told by the police, like, confront Scott, you know, like this has gone on long enough. You guys are just having these lovey dovey conversations where he's talking about like, oh, yeah, we're going to have a future together. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. You know, we need some like substance here. So just confront him with it. See if you surprise him. See what he says. So she wanted to see if he would admit to everything, which he did. I mean, not really. He did not admit to having done anything to Lacey. But he was like, yes, I lied to you. I was still married to a living woman when we met. And I have not been traveling in Europe. And I wasn't there over the new year. Yes, I lied about all of this. But

I didn't do anything to her. And Amber was like, you know, you said you lost her, Scott. No, Amber said, you said she died, Scott. And Scott was like, Amber, I said I lost her. And I did a long time ago. Scott also told Amber that Lacey knew about the affair. Not only did Lacey know, but Scott had also told his mother about Amber. This is what Scott told Amber, that both Jackie Peterson and Lacey knew about Amber and that Scott was like with her. OK, I don't believe that that he that Lacey knew and was okay with it. I do believe that Scott probably told Jackie about it. I believe that too. I mean, you know, could it have been before? Could it have been after either way? He might've went to his mom. I think it was before. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's possible, but if not before, definitely after it's like, just so

you know, mom, this is going to be bad for me because there is another woman. So if that gets out, it's going to look bad for me. I just want to tell you. And he probably posed it like in this way. He's like, you know, why would I do anything to Lacey, mom? Like, I've already moved on. I fell in love with somebody, you know, I'm I'm head over heels for her. Why would I even care what Lacey's doing?

But and Jackie was probably like, you're right, son. You deserve better anyways. Amber may have been able to get more out of Scott, but unfortunately, the National Enquirer got a hold of one of the pictures with Amber and Scott in it. I believe it was a friend of Amber's that stole it out of her house and gave it and sold it to the National Enquirer. And so basically, the magazine called the police and they were like, hey, we've got the story. We know about this chick. Heads up, we're going to print it tomorrow. So do what you got to do, you know, because at this point, Lacey's family doesn't know about Amber. The police are keeping it completely quiet. But now the operation's compromised. So as soon as

the National Enquirer prints this, Scott's going to figure out that like they know everyone knows about him and Amber and he's going to be more on his guard. So the police needed to quickly let Sharon and her family know that the son-in-law they'd been defending had been cheating on Lacey. During this meeting, Modesto police also told Sharon that Scott had taken an insurance policy out on Lacey shortly before she had gone missing, which, as we know, was a bit of an exaggeration slash straight out lie. And Sharon and Ron Gransky were shown the pictures of Amber and Scott. And allegedly, Sharon put her head in her hands, began crying and said, why did he have to kill my baby? After the existence of Amber was made

known to the world, Scott Peterson was public enemy number one. But he continued to call her even after it all came out. He continued to call her. He continued to try and make some semblance of a relationship work. And after Amber stood in front of the media at a press conference and basically introduced herself, she was like, my name's Amber. I am dating Scott. I had no idea he was married. I had no idea his wife was missing. And I give my sympathies to Lacey's family. I hope she's found alive scott called her and he was like you know i'm proud of you that was really brave what you did the guy the guy's insane i mean he really is crazy the guy is certifiable i mean no doubt about it he does he has no he has no no shame no shame but even deeper than that the guy just has

no heart i mean he really doesn't. It just, he's a psychopath. I think he is. He really is. Yeah, yeah. He really is. To be able to do that, I mean, that's some Chris Watts level shit. I mean, it really is. Oh, Scott Peterson goes beyond Chris Watts.

Yeah, I mean, they're both in good company. But yeah, I'm with you there. I agree. And you think Scott Peterson goes beyond. See, I think the opposite. But that's a different story for a different day. I mean, his daughters were older. What he did to them.

No, I mean, what he did to them was horrible. But like his lying and covering up Scott was terrible at that, man. He cracked, you know, five minutes in the interview room with the police. He was crying. He's Chris. Chris. Yeah, Chris. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. What Chris did was way worse. I mean, it sucks. They boy, they're both terrible. Yeah, no, they're both the worst. And yeah, yeah, either way. But yeah, hearing all these things, man, it just it really does paint a picture of who Scott Peterson is.

That's that simple. I mean, is anything here again, like definitive that he killed his wife? No, but I'll get to my final thoughts when we finish this episode. Is anything this dude says the truth? No, what's the truth no that that's you just nailed it that's that's it nothing this man says is the truth everything he says is to for self-preservation or just for fun it seems at some point i mean if we're at that i mean who because why would he call her and be like i'm so proud of you for doing that like did he

actually think that this this woman was going to consider a serious relationship with him after he lied to her for months? And then his wife goes missing and he's still calling her and lying to her about it. Like, I definitely in Amber's position at this point would be like, Scott killed his wife because he wanted to be with me. So now I feel guilty and now I feel horrible and I'm going to beat myself up and I don't even want to talk to this dude anymore. Right. Yeah. No, I think I think that's a fair assessment by Amber, you know, and I think for him, we said it in episode one, the lack of self-awareness of Scott Peterson, you know, he, we talked about, we were making jokes. Like he's the guy who's at a party and thinks like everyone's like, you know, waiting for his next word. When in reality, everyone's looking at him like he's a fool. Yeah. Like next word when in reality everyone's looking at

him like he's a fool yeah like when's that gonna go home right this guy really you know as far as like how he thought he was cool with all the women and they all wanted him when in reality they all thought he was like a chump i think this kind of goes to that a little bit where i definitely think there's something deeper there that a psychologist would get to the bottom of but i really think that when he presents himself this way to amber he thinks in his mind it's working like she's totally totally buying this like i'm giving her some you know and i think maybe even he buys it like you know that's the best liar is the one who believed their own bullshit and he's probably saying they're like i'm really proud of you there might be a weird

part of it where he actually believes that he's like oh i just love you even more yeah like but not taking into consideration the context of what he's proud of her for he looks great up there honey it's crazy it's it's insane i just think this is a more of an insight into who scott peterson was what he valued and although this doesn't say hey i murdered my wife i do think for most people it does scream motive for killing my wife. Yes, I'd have to agree. Well, the searches for Lacey continued, mainly focused on San Francisco Bay, surrounding areas, and amongst those searching were Scott Peterson, his father, Lee, and his brother. This may have been why the police claimed Scott would show up where they

were searching for Lacey and he was always in a different car. They claimed he was watching them to see if they'd found anything. But Scott claims he was just out looking the same as they were and it would only make sense to search in the same areas the police had interest in. He said the reason he was driving different cars was because they had not returned his truck to him yet. So he was having to get rental cars, which was one of the main reasons he later decided to trade Lacey's SUV in for a truck because the cost of renting cars was getting too high. I don't believe this, okay?

I believe he was absolutely watching them. And there's a sister of his, Annie Bird is her name. I believe she was one of the kids that Jackie had adopted out. And she lived around the San Francisco Bay. And Scott actually moved in with her for a little while. And she said he was always like so focused on what the police were doing and where they were searching. So I definitely think that Scott was trying to see if they'd found Lacey yet.

Was trying to see like, do I have to get out of here? Which, you know, is what he does end up doing when Lacey is found. And we will get to that in the next part. revealed during court proceedings, but might give more weight to the defense that someone else had taken a pregnant Lacey and left her in the bay after finding out from the police that her husband had been fishing there the morning she went missing. We're also going to talk about Scott's arrest, the way he looked, what he was in possession of when they finally caught up with him. A lot of bizarre stuff happening here. And yeah, we're going to get to all that next time. But you have final thoughts? Final thoughts, just to kind of summarize this segment, because over the last two episodes, we've gone over a lot of evidence.

You've referred to trial a lot. I'll say this, and I was writing notes about it. The defense attorney, his job is to poke holes in the circumstances of the case to create doubt. And as we know, the threshold in a criminal proceeding is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But what I want to just emphasize to everyone out there is that there are many cases that you can go and look up where individuals are convicted on circumstantial evidence. It's not always something that shows like a video or something where it's like a no doubter. And so it's not uncommon to have a prosecution piece together pieces of circumstantial evidence to create proof beyond a reasonable doubt in the eyes of the approach of, I didn't really know a lot about this case. And, you know, I think most of you know me by now know where I'm going with this

case, but I will say, although there's been nothing yet and I didn't expect it where it's like definitively he did it. I will say there are a lot of things suggesting that he did it. And there hasn't really been anything that's undeniably exculpatory evidence. There's been things where, like I just said, the defense has poked holes in certain theories or maybe created new theories as a possible reason for her disappearance and death. But I haven't seen anything that says, no, he couldn't have done it. And I haven't seen anything that says he absolutely did it. But I've seen a lot That would suggest in totality again circumstantial evidence that he did kill his wife, but we'll like you said we'll get to the rest we'll go through it and

You know, i'll hold off judgment till the end, but I do think you've already brought up a lot of stuff Specifically his behavior with amber that I do think Is extremely critical and just to go back. I think that phone being in the car too, for me is like, I don't know if other people felt that way, but that to me is very suggestive that Lacey was dead very early in the morning, which kind of rules out those other theories that the defense put forward. Yeah. I mean, it's the, I don't want to say it's easy, but it's not super hard for a good lawyer to find something that they can say is reasonable doubt. It's a little tougher to get the jury to care, I guess, or believe that reasonable doubt or to say that this reasonable doubt outweighs everything else that's stacked up against someone like Scott Peterson. And I think that's really what happened in this trial. There was reasonable doubt. We can say that Mark Geragos did his job and he presented

plenty of reasonable doubt, but it wasn't reasonable doubt that the jury really bought into. So at the end of the day, that's what mattered. And did it outweigh what the prosecution put forward? Right. You know, really interesting. I'm so glad we covered the case. I'm so glad we're still covering it because I was telling you before we recorded, I've been enamored by the case and I'm finding myself looking at things, even though I told you guys I wouldn't. But, you know, things come up. You guys are DMing us, you're messaging us. I'm like, oh, I got to look into that. But, you know, until next week, right? There's nothing else. I mean, we covered everything. Just so you guys know, I just got to put it out there. We had a major technical issue in the middle of this episode. I thought that I was going to die because I literally thought it didn't record anything. It just froze on us, but it did. And we're finishing the last five minutes. So if I'm a little off right now, that's the reason. Yeah. He looked like he literally saw a ghost, which he will never see because he won't go into a haunted house. But- This is true.

I will say that we started recording at 8.30 p.m. It is now 1.04 a.m. So we're going on five hours, five hours of recording right now. So we are dedicated. Yes, we're dedicated. Yeah. We're dedicated to you guys.

Yeah, we are so sorry, John. But thank you guys so much for joining us. We will see you next week. Make sure you're still sending us messages. You're following us on social media. You're taking part in this case. We're getting so many good messages. We just did not have time to really put them in today because it was a long episode.

Keep sending the messages. Keep reaching out to us. We will include them. And I will say that I'm actually using your messages when I'm researching to find places I should focus on and questions you guys have. So I really appreciate it. It's been so fun sort of feeling like I have thousands of partners out there covering this case with us. I think it's cool. So we will see you guys next week. Thanks so much for being here. Bye. I'm tired. Let's end it. Bye. Bye.