Crime Weekly - S1 Ep5: The Guy Family Murders (Part II)

Episode Date: January 1, 2021

Lisa Guy, and her husband of over thirty years, Joel Guy Sr. were dead, brutally murdered. Pieces of their body strewn around the home where they had lovingly raised their children in for years. The house was no longer a place of laughter, love, and life. It was now a violent crime scene captured on the body cams of Nashville police officers, and in photographs taken by forensic teams. Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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and in photographs taken by forensic teams. Hello and welcome to Crime Weekly presented by i-D. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. On this podcast, we do talk about difficult subjects. We're talking about real crimes and real people. And due to the graphic nature of some of this content, listener discretion is advised. Hey, everyone. Welcome back. Stephanie, ready for part two? I'm so ready for part two. And I just want everyone to know that it really is normal and I think natural for the both of us to want to talk more extensively about these cases. So I'm really happy that we're able to do some multi-parters on this podcast. And going forward, there's going to be a couple of them

because a lot of these cases, they do need a deep dive. It would be an absolute disservice to try and fit a story like this into a one-part podcast. If we did that, it would have to be three hours. So guys, be prepared for this because Joel Guy's two parts. There may be one to be three hours. So, you know, guys be prepared for this because this, you know, Joel guys, two parts, um, there may be one that's three parts. We may do for it. We're going to, we're not going to restrict ourselves to a time limit. We're going to let the story dictate how many parts it's broken up into, because we feel that you guys would care more about getting all the facts, getting, getting the details of the case. That's what we're going to bring to this podcast instead of, you know of trying to make it some short little concise podcast just to fit a time limit.

Absolutely. And I think when we have discussions about certain things, it's so much different than the thoughts we would have had on our own. So I want everyone to feel like they're just sitting with us, maybe having a drink, having a beer and talking about true crime. Absolutely. I'm ready to go. You ready? Yeah. Well, we do have a lot to talk about this week. But first, we've talked about the podcast from ID, a brand new podcast from ID called The Clown and the Candyman, before on our podcast. And now I've had a chance to listen to it.

And I got to tell you, I am hooked. It's about two infamous serial killers, Dean Corll and John Wayne Gacy. And these are serial killers that pretty much everyone has heard of. But there's some information in this podcast that you probably never have heard of. Yeah, no, it's interesting. I've been listening as well. Again, for those of you who don't know, it's about these two serial killers. They're thousands of miles apart and they brutally murdered over 60 teenage boys. Really tough stuff to listen to. But again, it's informative for me. That's the angle that I approach it at. So I'm really it's keeping my interest, which is not an easy thing to do. But I have been following along religiously. Yeah, because, you know, for the longest time, the police said that these two serial killers who operated pretty much at around the same time, they were not connected at all. But I.D.'s new podcast, The Clown and the Candyman, it's showing you that they actually

were connected by this horrible network of pedophiles. I hate pedophiles, man. I hate them so much. And these pedophiles were apparently partially financed by prominent members of American society. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. We were hearing about these things being exposed more these days too, right? So I definitely recommend everyone go check it out. It's available now. And if you haven't been listening, that's okay. That's the beauty of podcasts. You can go back and catch up on all the previous episodes and get caught up with us because I'm sure this won't be the last time we're talking about it. Nope, nope.

Two killers. One everyone's heard of and one you might not have. Operating thousands of miles apart, but secretly connected. How can you resist? So Derek, when we last left off, we talked a little bit about what the police saw in the house when they initially went through. But now I want to talk about what the forensics team found when they did a more thorough walkthrough and they began taking

pictures and collecting evidence because I really want to illustrate how callous and needlessly violent this crime was. 61-year-old Joel Guy Sr. had been stabbed 42 times, causing damage to many of his internal organs, including his lungs, liver, and kidneys. His son Joel had stabbed him so deeply and so violently that his ribs had been scraped and a few of them had actually been severed completely. Joel Sr. had been killed first while Lisa was out of the house grocery shopping at the Turkey Creek Walmart Center, and that wasn't far from the house. While Lisa was picking out her son's favorite ice cream and planning the menu for that evening's dinner, her leech of a son was brutally murdering the love of her life. But Joel Sr. fought back, and I honestly don't think that Joel Jr. was expecting

that. The evidence showed that at some point, Joel Sr. must have gotten his hands on a knife and he attempted to defend himself. Joel Jr. had defensive wounds on his right hand, on the palm of his right hand, and the state of the room showed that Joel Sr. had not given up easily. The stab marks in the futon indicated that there had been a struggle, but in the end, it just wasn't enough. And I really think that's because Joel Jr. had initially caught Joel Sr. off guard. So he had the upper hand. After Joel Sr. was dead, Joel Jr. waited for his mother, Lisa, to get home. He then lured her upstairs somehow, and he attacked her when she reached the top of the stairs. When Lisa Guy was murdered by her son, she was facing him,

and she knew exactly what was happening, which is a truly horrifying thought. Lisa had been stabbed 31 times, with nine of her ribs being severed completely. When both his parents were dead, Joel started the physically taxing process of disarticulating their bodies. Now, Derek, during the trial, they discussed the difference between dismemberment and disarticulating their bodies. Now, Derek, during the trial, they discussed the difference between dismemberment and disarticulation. And I think it's interesting and it's also important to talk about. So can you elaborate for us a little bit? Yeah, this is, it can get pretty graphic, so I'll try to keep it, you know, as PG as possible. But I think for most of our listeners, dismemberment is probably the term they're more familiar with. That's the term that

I hear more on the news and on movies, podcasts, all those things. And that basically means to remove a body part, whether it's through cutting, tearing, pulling, or any other horrific way you can think of. So cutting a leg in half by cutting through the bone, that would be an example of dismemberment. You're cutting through the bone and cutting through the leg. You're separating the body part at whatever area you want. Now, disarticulation, on the other hand, is a little different in the sense that it refers to separating the body at the joints. So the articulating points of the body. So area like your knees, your elbows, wrists, shoulders, that's where the separation would occur. And unfortunately, we are seeing examples of that in this particular case.

Lisa's legs had been cut off below the knees. Her arms had been removed at her shoulders. Joel Sr.'s hands had been removed at the wrists and his arms had been removed at the shoulders. His legs had been removed at his hips and his right foot had also been removed. Now, Dr. Amy Hawes, the medical examiner, described her overall impression that the crime scene was a very complicated and unusual one due to the various chemicals that were scattered throughout different areas of the home, many blood spots as well in different areas, and multiple dismembered or disarticulated body parts in rooms throughout the home. Now, it was also very warm inside. That's something that the police noticed when they first

came in because Joel Jr. had jacked the thermostats up to over 90 degrees, both the upstairs and the downstairs, and he also placed portable heaters at different places in the home, strategically next to other plugged-in electronics like hair dryers. It was a way of speeding up the decomposition of the bodies of his parents, and I think it was also a way to accelerate his inevitable plan of having the house go up in flames, which would destroy potential evidence that might point to him as the culprit. Now, Amy Haas said there was a slight odor of decomposition in the home, but the main smell was that of chemicals. Yeah, I'm sure the amount of chemicals that were found in the house, it must have been really bad. I've been in situations where you've had chemicals that have been used for the manufacturing

narcotics, things like that. And the minute you walk in, your throat closes up on you and you know, instantaneously, you're dealing with something that you got to be very careful with because it could have a long-term effect on your health. So I'm sure that was part of their whole controlling the crime scene that probably took place before they even started breaking down the evidence itself. But as far as trying to alter the death, this is actually a pretty common tactic that is used by offenders in a lot of premeditated murders. They try to throw off investigators by heating up the body or cooling it down in an attempt to, as you said, alter the process of decomposition.

I actually remember years ago researching Richard Kuklinski, a.k.a. the Iceman. He was a known mafia hitman. Have you ever heard of the Iceman? Yeah. Yeah. I've heard of it, actually, as you were talking about it. I was getting flashbacks. It's horrific. Yeah. So he was actually, he got his nickname for this exact tactic. He would freeze the bodies of his victims before disposing of them. So this isn't something new for criminals. It's been around for a very long time. And just so I'm clear, he would want to speed up the decomposition of the bodies so that it would make it harder for investigators

to determine time of death, right? And that way you kind of don't even really need an alibi because they can't even tell when they died. So pretty much they can't say you don't have an alibi for the murders because they can't pinpoint the exact time that they died. Am I correct in that? Yeah. So let's say just for the sake of the example, right? The victims were killed on a Friday. So there's a scientific process where a lot of forensic pathologists will be able to determine the time of death based on how badly decomposed the bodies are. So if they died on a Friday, they know based on the historical evidence surrounding decomposition, what their body should look like on, let's say, that Monday, right? However, just like with anything, you see animals in the woods or anything like that, when you have someone or something that dies in the woods, but

is out in the hot sun, obviously the decomposition process is a lot further along on that Monday than it should be. So like you just said, if the body comes in and it's badly decomposed, it would suggest that they were killed earlier in the week. And in this particular case, Joel was still at school or somewhere else. So it would say, hey, couldn't have been him. These people have been dead for over a week now and he wasn't even in the area. So it couldn't have been him, right? But obviously if you're going to do that, you can't leave around all the evidence that would suggest you attempted to speed up the decomposition process because then they can reverse engineer it and figure out when they actually died. Yeah. And I really, like I said, I think that something happened in his plan very early on,

which completely altered it. And I think he just gave up at one point. I don't get the impression from Joel Guy Jr. that he's super dedicated to really seeing anything through. I think he's the kind of person who could sit there and write a plan in a notebook because that's easy. But actually doing the plan, going through with it after you. And I don't think, like I said, he doesn't understand how physically hard and difficult it is to murder two people. I don't think it was emotionally difficult for him, but he wasn't in great shape. Let's be honest. It's not like he was hitting the gym three or four times a week. He didn't, he didn't really think it through that it was going to be a difficult process. He definitely

didn't plan for his father to fight back. And then, obviously, what he had to do to the bodies afterwards, that's going to be a lot of work. I think he was like, well, whatever, I'm just going to leave all this stuff there. The house is going to catch on fire. Nothing will ever be found. But that's not what happened. He actually placed the bulk of his parents' bodies in blue storage bins filled with muriatic acid. And those storage bins were found in the master bathroom on top of sheets of plastic.

And a roll of plastic sheeting was also found on the bed of Joel and Lisa Guy in the master bedroom. But Lisa Guy's head had been removed from her body by her son after her death. And he had placed it into that large stock pot on the stovetop. And that was what had been simmering in that pot when the initial four police officers entered the residence on Monday morning. Now, remember those things laying on the kitchen table as well, the purse and the wallets? When I did my video on YouTube for this, some commenters thought that the police had actually laid the things out like this in order to take pictures for evidence. But it was actually Joel Jr. who had done this, removing his parents' wallets from wherever they'd been located,

taking their money out, taking their credit cards out. And what he did with the money after he took their lives was kind of interesting, but not surprising once we know a little bit more about him. So he actually paid his tuition at LSU. He prepaid the rent on his apartment. He prepaid his utilities for his apartment. What do you think about that? Yeah, it's terrible, but it reaffirms what I said earlier. Unfortunately, Lisa and Joel Sr. were nothing more than a source of income to Joel Jr. From everything I've seen or read, he never showed any signs of wanting to be around them simply because he loved them. It was all about the money. And when they informed

him that they were no longer willing to provide for him financially, he had no use for them. Unfortunately for Lisa and Joel Sr., Joel Jr. realized that he could potentially squeeze a few more dollars out of them by killing them. And him taking the money out of their wallets after brutally murdering both of them, it really just shows how little he cared for both of them. Yeah. I think it illustrates like his, his actual motive too. I mean, like you said, motive means opportunity, right? It was his first order of business to, to like pay off his bills. And, uh, we'll talk about that a little more when we touch on, on the trial, but I do want to ask you, Lisa's head in the pot. Yeah.

For me, I don't think it was like a personal thing. I don't think there was any like psychological thing to it. Like, you know, him, you know, wanting to do more to his mother because he didn't like her. I think he was just, again, in the process of trying to dismantle the bodies. I think maybe he felt like, you know, boiling the head would decompose it a little bit more, break it down a little bit more. I really don't know. I was I saw your video and you kind of like you didn't you you hinted to the boiling pot when the police officers first went in and then you didn't bring it up again to the end. So it was kind of a surprise.

And then researching it, there was really nothing mentioned that I saw that suggested why he did that. The bottom line was that she was dead because he never admitted to it. So he won't he wouldn't be able to say, well, this is why I did that. The bottom line was that she was dead. Because he never admitted to it. So he wouldn't be able to say, well, this is why I did that. Yeah. I mean, there's a possibility he was experimenting and trying to find ways to break down the bodies faster. And he figured, hey, let me try it with her head and see what happens by boiling it instead of using the muric acid. But who knows? For us to try to get in the mind of a monster like this, it's always difficult, but that's why we do this, right? We're trying to understand these individuals more so we can maybe prevent it from

happening in the future. Well, I have two sort of theories, I guess, but one- Hit me with it. Well, he put her head in the pot. I can't wrap my head around it. Literally, I can't understand it, but he was trying to set fire to the house. So maybe he thought like, if I put her head in the pot, put it on boiling, like maybe having that stove on will just raise the heat in the house, which will help with everything. Also, it seemed like in his notebook, he was trying to frame his father for Lisa's murder, you know, because he said initially that he was going to make it look like there'd been an intruder, but then he scratched that out and said, no, he needs to

be blamed for this. So it can't look like there's an intruder. So I wonder if that was kind of part of his narrative. I don't know. It just doesn't make any sense. No, but you bring up a good point because he said he was going to put her DNA or his DNA under her fingernails, which would suggest some type of assault or defense, right? So you bring up a valid point, but I guess not only was he trying to frame his father, if that's what happened, but he was trying to make his father look like the monster that he was by adding insult to injury and throwing her head in a pot. I don't get kept giving Joel Jr. money after Joel Guy Sr. had said enough is enough. So he was probably resentful. And like you said, maybe he was just trying to, not only kill him, but kill the memory of him afterwards.

Right. Slander him in death. Yeah. That makes a lot, that makes sense to me. It was personal for him in the sense where even though it was his mother's head, it was more of an attack on his father. So Joel, obviously he gets captured or arrested. He actually went back home to Baton Rouge and they apprehended him at his apartment in Baton Rouge, which I don't understand why he would do that. But I think he really thought he did a good thing here. I think he thought he was in the clear. But during the trial, Joel's lawyers tried to make it seem as if he hadn't known he was getting cut off because they're trying to take premeditation off the table, in my opinion. A crime of passion is going to fetch their client a far lesser

sentence. But the prosecution was like, no, you know, not today. They had plenty of evidence showing that Joel had planned his crimes at least 19 days in advance. On November 7th, Joel Guy Jr. was caught on surveillance purchasing several supplies at two different locations. He first went to Ace Hardware in Louisiana and he bought a few bottles of food grade hydrogen peroxide and these bottles were given to him in tied off bags because this chemical is really dangerous if it comes in contact with human skin, hence the tingling that Stephen Ballard had felt on his face as he walked through the house. Joel Jr. then went to Lowe's and he bought an Irwin pipe wrench, which was later found in the master bedroom, and he'd used

that to remove the shower head in the bathroom. Because remember, he removed the shower head in the bathroom specifically because one of the pieces of his plan was to put his mother in the tub and rinse any like physical evidence off of her. And after he removed the shower head, he put a really long garden hose where the shower head would have been. And I think that he was going to use that shower hose to flush everything down the toilet and into the public sewage system, which was also in his notebook. He also purchased Clorox wipes, which were later found at the scene. He purchased a bunch of things that were later found on the scene. But on November 18th, he purchased extension cords and a timer from Home Depot. And that timer was supposed to play a part in his plan to set a fire at the house after he

murdered his parents. Both of these items were found at the scene. He left the store and then he went back in a few minutes later because he forgot to buy something. He ended up buying a commercial bleach sprayer. This was also discovered at the scene, but it was still in the box, so it doesn't look like he'd used it. On November 19th, Joel was caught on surveillance again purchasing a K-bar knife. And I think a K-bar knife is a military kind of knife. That's what I got. That's right. Yeah. Okay, good. And this was a K-bar knife is a military kind of knife. That's what I got from... That's right.

Yeah. Okay, good. And this was also found at the scene. And he bought it from a store called Academy Sports in Baton Rouge. And on November 21st, he was seen on camera again, buying a blue stairlight bin from Walmart, the same kind of bin that his half-sister Michelle had seen in his car when she was at her parents' house for Thanksgiving. A blender had been found in the master bedroom, and when he was apprehended later in Baton Rouge, a commercial-grade meat grinder was found in the trunk of his car. So this is always kind of, once again, cementing in my head that he was interrupted, that he didn't get to finish his plan, because in his notebook, he'd said, you know, use the meat grinder to grind up the meat and use the blender for this, and he never ended up using either the blender or the meat grinder to grind up the meat and use the blender for this. And he never ended

up using either the blender or the meat grinder, but he had them both there as if he planned to use them. What do you think about that? Yeah. I think there's a lot you can kind of unpack there. Obviously, he had a very well thought out plan. It was interesting that the attorneys tried to say, listen, there was no premeditation. It wasn't about finances because the things that he purchased become very important. And the investigators did a great job of going back and tracking all the surveillance footage down to show this because there are certain things that Joel Jr. could justify. Oh, I bought a bin. I bought a blender. But when you start talking about chemicals and the bleach sprayer and even the meat grinder, for me as a detective, I'm bringing him in the room and I'm saying, hey, where's the deli? Or what are you grinding up? What meat are you grinding up for?

Is that in your apartment you're doing that? Or do you own a sanitation service? Or what do you need a bleach sprayer for? Because those aren't common items that you or I would buy normally. So he's got to have a reason for purchasing those items. And he obviously doesn't. The second aspect of it, what this really shows for me, because I always try to dial it down to one specific thing that the criminal really didn't anticipate. And you're going to be probably surprised by what I say here. But he had this thought out plan that it sounds like this wasn't going to happen in a few hours. He was going to go through the process of dismantling the bodies,

doing the cleaning of the crime scene, disposing of whatever's left over. He probably anticipated this happening over a series of days, but what screwed him up was the employee calling and asking about his mom not showing up to work. He didn't anticipate it happening that fast. He probably figured, hey, maybe after a few days, maybe somebody would call and follow up, but who's really going to care? He didn't bank on how lovely and great of a woman his mother was and them knowing how good of an employee she was and knowing this was so uncharacteristic for her that they would follow up immediately. And that was the reason his plan went off the rails. Yeah. And some people have theorized that he, because he leaves at one point,

and we're going to talk about that in a minute, that he left and he came back and the police were there. I don't think so. Once again, it's kind of not really ever laid out because he never admitted to this, but I think what happened is he had his parents' cell phones and he saw that they were getting these calls, getting these texts. Where are you? Maybe Jennifer White had even said, I'm going to call the police if you don't answer me. And that's when he freaked out and took off just hoping that the house would catch on fire and take care of it for him. Didn't have that in his notebook. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think that's something that people really don't understand. It doesn't matter how smart you are, how thoroughly you plan things out. It never goes according to plan, nothing. And we'll get into it a little bit more, but, and this is another thing I hope the listeners

take away from this. Jennifer whited in this particular situation, she went with her gut. Yeah. Even the initial police officer was like, oh my God, why is she calling me so quick? Everything's normal. But by her taking the initiative to make that call, and then by following up when she wasn't satisfied with the results from the initial search, that's why they were able to solve this case so quickly. So kudos to her and anybody listening. If you ever have something like this occur, whether it's a relative or even just an employee, take her lead, do what she did because look at the results. Yeah. Follow your gut, advocate for yourself, advocate for your friends. I still think that there's some cases that happen where you try to

report someone missing and you're told you have to wait 48 hours. That is not a thing any longer. You do not have to wait 48 hours. Correct. Absolutely. Well said. So at some point after he killed his parents, Joel obviously had to attend to his own wounds, right? He had to fix himself up before he could, I think, go about the work of disarticulating their bodies. So Joel actually went into the bathroom on the second floor and he took off his clothes, which had a lot of blood on them. He left them in a pile on the bathroom floor. And then when the forensics people came in later, they show pictures of this. You can see it in their video. There's blood all over. There's blood on the sink. There's blood on the floor, all over the place. And then Joel went to the same Walmart

that his mother had just been at hours before. Here he bought some first aid supplies, bandages, and they had the surveillance footage during the trial. And you can see that he's specifically not using his hand that was injured. And it's kind of like wrapped up almost makeshift like, or he must've opened the bandages before he even bought them and kind of wrapped it up in the store. I'm not sure. He then returned to his parents' house. He got down to business, you know, disarticulating their bodies, paying off all his bills with their money. And later at the trial, a man named Michael McCracken testified. Now, Michael McCracken had been roommates with Joel Jr. at the boarding school that he'd attended for two years.

And after graduating, Michael McCracken actually went to LSU, but Joel enrolled at George Washington University. He only went there for a semester before he dropped out, and then he returned to Baton Rouge and he enrolled at LSU. And at first he moved into the same apartment complex that Michael McCracken was living in while also attending LSU. But Michael McCracken was rooming with a different person at this time. But at some point, Mike's roommate moved. He moved to Greece. And then so Joel moved in with Mike and then they were roommates once again. So if anybody knows Joel as well as anybody could know Joel, it's Michael McCracken. Altogether, over the course of boarding school and college and living together in Baton Rouge, Mike and Joel had known each other for a total of 10 years. And you could say that Joel definitely saw Mike more than he saw anybody in his family. And now they were living together again.

And when Mike testified at the trial, he said, you know, he felt he was Joel's only friend. Joel didn't have a lot of friends. And also, according to Michael, he didn't really know a lot about Joel's family. He said that they never visited, they never called. You know, they didn't call, they didn't write. He did admit that Lisa guy had come there once, I believe. And he also knew that Lisa was paying for all of Joel's bills. But Mike said he didn't

even know Joel had sisters, which is crazy because Joel wasn't talking about his family. And during the trial, his lawyers, Joel Jr.'s lawyers, tried to make it seem, I think, like, you know, poor little boy. Nobody loves him. He lives far away. Nobody wants to visit him. They don't care about him. But it turns out this was actually Joel's choice. He wanted to be isolated. He had chosen to remain behind in Baton Rouge when everyone else moved to Knoxville. He chose to not have contact with these people. He didn't reach out to them. And additionally, he didn't even want his aunts, his sisters, or really anybody outside of his mother and father to know where he lived. So this is clearly how he wanted it. And that's not a really great defense, in my opinion. Mike McCracken also said that Joel,

during high school, had been kind of an introvert, kind of an outsider, but after high school, he'd become even more isolated. He preferred to spend most of his time in his room in the apartment. He'd be on his computer, you know, watching YouTube videos, doing whatever he was doing in his room. Who knows? But Mike testified that there was weeks during which he wouldn't see Joel at all, even though they lived in the same apartment. By the time 2016, the year of the murders, rolled around, Mike, Joel wanted his cake and he wanted to eat it too, right? He wanted to get money from his family, but he didn't want to be a part of his family. Yeah, I would agree. I think we've, we've touched on that multiple times.

Um, and the proof is in the pudding, so to speak, right? Like you can see through the, you know, 27 years of his life that Joel Jr. has displayed a history of kind of disliking his family, right? I mean, that's according to his own sisters. And now Mike McCracken, who, again, got to be careful how we say this, because this is our opinion. This is my opinion. I don't know what the relationship really was between Mike and Joel Jr. I will say by reading the letters, by reading the transcripts, it does seem like they were very

close. Was it sexual in nature or was it just a good friendship? We may never know, but there was definitely a close friendship there. The way they spoke to each other, that's not the way I speak to my best friends, but again, it could just be the dynamic and the relationship they're in. But that said, there's no doubt that those two are very close. So for Mike McCracken to say he didn't even know Joel Jr. had sisters, that is not normal for someone who is considered to be a best friend. That is not normal behavior to keep that from your best friends that you actually have siblings. So yeah, it was a red flag. But again, I think for prosecution, it just again showed that, as you just said earlier, the only purpose

that Joel really had for any of his family members were his mother and father. And that was because his mother and father were providing for him financially. And I want to go back to something you said where this isn't how you would speak to your best friend. And, you know, I'm not saying that people don't speak to their best friends like that. But I am thinking that somebody like Joel, who didn't seem to show any emotional caring for anybody, he probably wouldn't be speaking to and his father like that. It just seems like he wasn't that much of an unemotionally aware person. So that's what made it seem strange to me because yeah, maybe some people love their best friends so much they would talk to them like that. And we're going to read to you a little bit of what Joel and Michael said to each other. Maybe some people would behave that way, but I don't think Joel would. And before you read it, I want our listeners to really think about the contrast between the individual who wrote his plans in a notebook to what you're about to read. Because you're going to see a stark difference, and yet they're written by the same person.

So keep that in mind as Stephanie's reading this, because I think that really is going to put it in perspective for you about how he felt about his parents and how he felt about Mike. So this jailhouse phone call took place between Joel and Mike on December 10th, 2016. Joel specifically said to Mike, you know, I don't have to worry about my apartment manager like taking my stuff and throwing it out into the street because I prepaid the rent for several months. And Mike was like, well, how did you do that? That had to have been expensive. And Joel specifically says, quote, yeah, one of the last things my mother did was pay for that. So end quote. And as we know, his mother did not pay for that. He paid for that after he had killed her. Yeah. It's, it's insane. It's, you know,

just, I know you're going to get into it and that's, again, like his mother owed that to him at 27 years old. That's just the mindset that he was in and that's what he felt he deserved. It's really fascinating stuff. A large deal of entitlement there. That's an understatement, entitlement. Oh my God. But he also says to Mike, quote, consider me dead and move on with your life. I genuinely want you to be happy.

I thought we genuinely had a very realistic chance of being happy if I got around to doing that. And well, I pretty much fucked everything up. I don't really have much of a chance of being happy anymore, but you do. You do. And eventually you're going to meet somebody and you've claimed I've been an albatross around your neck before, but I certainly would be now. I mean, I'm in freaking prison. On that basis, I think you should just sort of consider me dead and move on with your life. So I'm not going to try to initiate any more contact with you beyond sort of, you know, the practical concerns we discussed later. And I may do that with my lawyer because I genuinely want you to be happy. And that's pretty much the end of my outburst. So there you go. End quote. And Mike responds to Joel and says, quote, it hurts my heart. You've been my best friend for my entire adult life. And I don't know if that will ever change because of what you did. I'm not totally surprised. I don't know what to say. Just angry and lost and confused and disappointed

and upset. And I'm mourning you like you're dead, even though I'm talking to you on the phone. It's taking everything I have to process and maintain my sanity. And Joel responds to Mike, quote, I mean, I don't know if there is anything to say. I'm in here and there is, you know, basically tell me I'm a fucking idiot. Tell me why did I do this? Blah, blah, blah. How could you? I mean, have a stream of consciousness about anything and everything related or not to anything I just said, end quote. So the lawyers or the prosecution, they did focus on this jailhouse call because not only because of Joel saying the last thing his mother did was pay off his rent, but also because he says, tell me I am an idiot. Ask me, why did I do this? So he's essentially admitting guilt. He's not saying to Michael McCracken, I didn't do this. He's saying, ask me why I did this.

In my opinion, that's him saying that he did do this because an innocent person wouldn't be sitting there on a jailhouse phone call telling his best friend, ask me why I did this. I'm an idiot, blah, blah, blah. Do you agree? Oh, no, 100%. That was an admission of guilt. I mean, he's not on the phone claiming his innocence by any means. Like, listen, believe me, trust me, I'm going to get through this. I didn't do it. He's asking his friend to say, hey, ask me right out. Why do you think I did this? I mean, clearly for me, I guess, depending if you're on the defense side or prosecution side, you might look at it differently. But as an investigator, as a detective, this is part of my report.

This is part of my evidence that I'm presenting to the prosecution saying, listen, this is a subtle admission of guilt. At no point during this call does he say, I'm innocent. Not once. Not once. And he knew he was being recorded because, I mean, in jail or in prison, when you're on the phone, there's a big sign there usually that says, you know, these calls will be recorded and monitored, etc. They let you know that you're being recorded. And when we're talking about that, I do want to reiterate, Joel never said he did this. When he went to trial, he pleaded not guilty. But before jury selection even started for the trial, Joel Jr. had a request of his attorneys that he wanted them to basically

ask the DA to seek the death penalty in the event that he was found guilty. And that's very strange. And his lawyers were like, no, we're not going to do that. The DA hasn't even said they want to ask for the death penalty. They have no plans to. So no, we're not going to ask for the death penalty. And Joel actually went to the judge and he was allowed to represent himself on this one piece where he was trying to compel the DA's office to seek the death penalty, which they did not. So the fact that he wants the death penalty, some people might think this is because he's feeling guilty and he doesn't want to live with this guilt. You know, he doesn't want to spend life in prison with this guilt. But as we had talked about with Chris Watts, we're assuming that he has guilt. We're assuming he regrets what

he did. And I don't think he did. I don't think he regretted anything. I don't think he had any guilt. In my opinion, it was a legal move to try and make it harder for the jury to find him guilty because it's going to be much harder to look at somebody and give them the death penalty than it is to give them life in prison. What do you think about that? Yeah, I think you're onto something there. I think it's a psychological thing. I think jury members are normal people like you and I, and to ask an individual to find someone guilty, knowing that if you do, the result will be, in essence, you killing that person. That's a tough thing to do for a normal person, to know that you're responsible for the death of another human being in your deliberation and ultimately your opinion on whether they're guilty or not. So that could have been one aspect of it. The other angle here is he knew he was cooked and he's such a coward, in my opinion, that he's such a coward, he didn't want to go to jail.

He didn't want to go to prison for the rest of his life. He just wanted to end it all. I wouldn't even be surprised. And again, I'm not a forensic psychologist, but if there was some level of a mental disorder there, something that contributed to him being the type of person that he was throughout his life, and then thinking that this was the solution to kill his parents, to consciously think, hey, you know what? How do I get more money out of this? Oh, I'll just kill my parents. That's not a normal thing for someone to think. So there is a strong possibility here that he had some mental disorders that had never been clinically diagnosed. And this was his way of essentially committing

suicide through the courts. If he was going to be found guilty, he wanted to be killed. That's the other angle here. I see where you're going. I feel like he's a little bit too much of a narcissist to want to do that. And I keep flapping back to the Casey Anthony trial where the prosecutors in that case, they saw the death penalty and they had a lot of evidence, but it was mostly circumstantial. So I think they overkicked their coverage a little bit there. They wanted to see her go away, but the jury's sitting there and they're looking at what they have, what the prosecution had. And they're saying, can we send this woman to death row based on this? That's going to be so much harder. I think he's so manipulative. He spent his life manipulating people and successfully at that. I mean, how long did he live without having

to pay a dime out of his own pocket? So he clearly was pretty good at doing that. But either way, that's what he wanted and it was denied. And his lawyers did try to put a defense up. I can't really judge them for how poor the defense ended up being because what did they have to work with? I would never have wanted that job. There wasn't really anything they could say once the evidence was out on the table. Joel's lawyers tried to say he was friendly and happy that Thanksgiving weekend. Look at him in this picture, smiling with his parents. Friendly and happy people don't murder anyone. This is not true. And I'm over here thinking, yeah, he was friendly and happy because he knew he was

going to kill his parents and that his money troubles were going to be over, that he would have enough money and he wouldn't have to worry about getting a job. His lawyers also said, you know, the way that these attacks happened, how many times his parents were stabbed, how very gruesome and vicious it was. That kind of attack suggested anger and rage. And, you know, Joel was happy and outgoing at Thanksgiving. So and he didn't even know that his parents were going to cut him off yet. They were going to tell him at Christmas. They brought up many people to the stand, Joel Guy

Sr.'s sisters from Sigornsville, Joel Guy Sr.'s daughters, and most of them did testify that the guys were not planning to tell Joel Jr. until Christmas Eve. But if you remember, Michelle testified that her father told her they just decided to tell her Thanksgiving because he was there. But I guess the lawyers are trying to say, well, you don't have firsthand knowledge of this. It's just secondhand information. So you can't prove that he knew on Thanksgiving that his parents were going to cut him off. What do you think about that? Do you think he knew or not?

No, I think he knew. I remember seeing something in the documents where Michelle actually referenced the fact that she saw the blue bins already at the house, right? They were in Joel Jr.'s car, correct? Yes, but I'm wondering if, because Joel Sr. had already cut him off, maybe Joel Jr. could have known that it was the other shoe to drop, right? Yeah. I'm sure as in many relationships, you have one of the two partners, whether it's the mother or the father, one of them is more softer on the child, right? They make excuses for them. You have the authoritative figure, probably in this case, Joel Sr. saying, listen, he's 27 years old, Lisa. It's time to cut the cord. He's got to either sink or swim here. And Lisa is saying, well, he's a little different. He's misunderstood. And basically Joel Sr. was like, I'm not giving him any more money.

So to try to offset that, so there wouldn't be conflict between Joel Jr. and Joel Sr., Lisa goes out and gets another part-time job just to pay for it, to say, hey, Joel Sr., don't worry about it. I'm paying for it. It's my money. We've seen this before, right? This is a common thing. So yeah, I think Joel Jr. probably knew mom's going out on a limb here, but at some point, Joel Sr. is going to get his way and I'm going to get cut off because mom can't do this forever. Yeah. So either way, if he knew that he was getting cut off or not, he most likely would have assumed it was going to come at one point. His mother was getting older. She'd have to retire at some point, regardless. She wouldn't be able to have a job just to pay for his bills. So it was definitely planned. He definitely knew it was going to come at some

point and he didn't want to have to stand on his own two feet. And yeah, you're right. I do feel that this kind of dynamic is really common in families. It's sad because oftentimes, you know, when these parents aren't on the same page about how's sad because oftentimes, you know, when these parents aren't on the same page about how to raise children or, you know, especially when it comes to an adult child, the mother or the father, this doesn't have anything to do with gender. They might want to help the kid more, you know, like, oh, let's just help him get on his feet. Like, let's just get him through to this next point. Like you're, you're a parent. That's the, that's what bothers me the most about this. They were nurturing

of him. They were helping him. They cared about the quality of his life to the point where I'm sure they had argued about it at some points and caused discord in their otherwise really happy marriage. And he just didn't care about them at all. They were just people to be used and thrown to the side afterward. And when Joel Jr.'s lawyer said he was happy and outgoing, I'm thinking to myself that I know people like Joel Jr. And he was probably really happy because he knew his problems were going to be over. I said in my video that he was probably laying in his bed the night before he did this, like a kid on Christmas Eve. His parents are sleeping peacefully in the next room. They don't know what's about to happen. And he's sitting here going over his plan in his head. He's so excited. He's so antsy. He can't sleep. He knows it's going

to happen tomorrow. And then he won't have to pretend to like these people anymore. Then he won't have to make a show of coming to Thanksgiving or at least showing up once a year just to show his face. He won't have to pretend to know the names of his half-sister Michelle's kids. He was just so excited to be rid of the whole family because once he killed Joel Sr. and Lisa, he wouldn't have to deal with any of them. Right. And it brings up another point as far as motive, because we keep going back to the idea that he saw the writing on the wall and realized that the gravy train was coming off the rails. And it's very possible. But there's also another angle here. It's still financial in nature as far him financially, but I'm sure he was catching a lot of slack for it. So when it came to the financial resources, it was more of a dripping faucet, right? He was squeezing the money out of them as needed. Well, look at the notebook, right?

Look at the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were at play here. This was an opportunity for Joel Jr. to go from getting money on a monthly basis to having a large sum of money available within a few months. Again, hundreds of thousands of dollars, instead of having to squeeze it out of his parents every month, he would have the ability to do whatever he wanted between the property and obviously the insurance that would come from it. So that's the other angle here. Listen, he was tired in his opinion of, you know, trying to find ways to manipulate them for the couple of thousands of dollars he got each month. He wanted all of it and he wasn't willing to wait anymore. And this was his opportunity.

So whether he knew it was coming to an end or not, that might not have mattered. He might have already made up his mind. Yeah. And I think you're right. He wanted the money without it being held over his head, you know, entitlement on his terms. Agreed. And we also have to remember that the biggest portion of the assets was Lisa's life insurance policy, which was through her employer and was retiring. So when you're not working at that job anymore, you're not going to have that life insurance anymore. That ends. So he was also facing a ticking clock. So even if they didn't tell him that they were going to cut him off, he knew that they were moving from Knoxville. They were moving to Sigornsville. He knew that Lisa was leaving her job and he most likely knew when she was going to be leaving her job. And he would have known that once she didn't work at her job,

where she got the life insurance policy from, that life insurance policy would be null and void, and he would have no chance. So he had to do something before that date, which I believe was December 2nd, if I remember correctly. Yeah. Yeah. You're just reaffirming what we're saying, right? Like at the end of the day, I know at trial, a big part was proving the motive, the reasoning behind why he did this and when he did it. And again, it doesn't come down to just them cutting him off. It could have been a lot more than that. It could have been a totality of circumstances where he knew she was getting ready to leave her job. That insurance policy would have ended. So the amount of money he could get in one lump sum would have been a lot less if he waited

any longer. So again, is he going to come out and say all of this? He probably will go to his grave with us not knowing. But when you start to put the pieces of the puzzle together, it does make a lot of sense, right? Yeah. And the prosecutor in the case said during the trial, why did he make all of these payments right after he killed his parents? You know, his utilities, his rent, all of this. Why would he be so quick to pay for everything in advance? Well, she theorized it's because it takes a while for an estate to be settled. You know, there's got to be an investigation process before an insurance company is going to pay out on a policy, especially, I think, in this situation where the holder of the policy has been brutally murdered and there's a

fire and, you know, all of the things he expected to happen. He knew there would be an investigation. So there would be a couple of month period where he wouldn't have any money coming in because he wouldn't have the life insurance money and his parents are dead. So they can't give him any more money. And the prosecutor theorized that this is why he paid all of these in advance to give himself a cushion to get himself through those months before the life insurance policy paid out. Joel Jr. was found guilty of these murders after only roughly three hours of deliberation. So he's currently facing life in prison. Yeah, you know, he got what he deserved.

I don't think anybody expected for the jury to take long to deliberate in this trial. If you take anything out of this case that's positive, you can take in the fact that clearly, I don't believe Joel Jr. wanted to go to prison. This was in his notebook. This wasn't in his plans. And yet here we are, you and I are speaking, and as we are, he's in a prison cell right now. But at first I was almost kind of upset because I was like, oh, this is what Joel wanted. He wants to just be somewhere and read his books and whatever and have everything provided for him, meals, a roof over his head. And that's what prison would give him. But then I thought, don't they make you get a job when you're in prison? They definitely do, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, you're going to have responsibilities. So absolutely. He's doing

more now in prison than he was probably having to do in the outside world. So there is some karma here. Doesn't bring back Joel Sr. or Lisa and nothing is going to ever, you know, help their family in healing by knowing he's working in a prison. But again, from a impartial perspective, it's good to know that he's in an orange jumpsuit making plates for registration plates that could be on someone's car. And it is sad because Lisa and Joel Sr., they were people that worked really hard. They devoted themselves to making money, saving it, providing for their family, raising their children. They were finally going to be able to devote their time to each other. They

were going to move to a smaller place where they'd be closer to family. They were going to spend time together and enjoy their well-deserved retirement. And he stole that from them. And it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating, but at least, you know, he got caught in the end. Stephanie, what's your takeaway from this overall? I mean, we, with all these episodes, we're going to kind of have this moment where we kind of want to call it like a debriefing. Right. Where we kind of break down the takeaways from this incident and how we can learn from it. What are your takeaways?

I mean, as far as once again, and we went over this with the Chris Watts case, what could Joel and Lisa guy have done differently? And I hate to even talk about that because you don't want to look at the victim and say, what could you have done differently to not have become a victim? But I think it's really important that as a parent, you have to teach your child to become self-sufficient, to become a productive member of society. Like there's only so much that you can do for them. Once they become an adult, there has to be a point where you do cut the cord and you have to have them stand on their own two feet, but you can't let it go this long because then they do become entitled, right? They do become selfish.

They do become narcissistic and lazy and useless. And I think Joel was all of these things. Joel Jr. was all of these things. And I get it. I'm a parent to three beautiful children and I would give the world to them. And it really, I feel like it would be hard if they ever asked me for something that they truly needed for me to say no. So I hope I never have to even deal with the situation, but Joel really should have been taking care of himself long before 2016.

Yeah, I agree with you. And I see the perspective that you're coming at it from, and I'm coming from the same. I'm taking off the detective hat at this point, and I'm putting on the parent hat. And as a parent, there's a fine line between helping your child and hindering them. And in this particular case, I think all of us as parents have to step back sometimes and, again, go with your gut. This was not normal behavior. And maybe, just maybe, if at a younger age, Joel Jr. was seen by a professional because clearly his behavior was not normal. If he was taken somewhere and maybe put on the proper medication or given the proper counseling, whatever it may be. Maybe it doesn't make a difference, but maybe it does. So again, by no means are we bashing

Joel Sr. and Lisa at all. Because the reality is if we wanted to put it out there, there's really not much they could have done. You can't see this. You're never going to, there's never in your wildest dreams. You're going to think your own child's going to kill you. So let's just put that right out there. However, if you're going to take anything from it, learn from this. You just read the story with us. You just listened to the story with us. And as you were probably listening to Stephanie tell this story, you were probably saying yourself, oh my God, it's so obvious. Look at the behavior Joel Jr. was displaying. Why didn't they do something? Well, don't look at it from that perspective. Look at it in your own life with your own children and take that same approach, use that same filter. And again, not saying it's going to ever get this extreme, but maybe there's something,

there's a lesson that you can take out of what we've discussed here today to help you in your own life or to help your child. And I think that's, what's really important here. Our condolences are with everyone from Lisa and Joel Sr.'s family. Nothing's going to replace them, but hopefully with Joel Jr. being put away for the rest of his life, there's some peace for them in that, some closure. Yeah. It's like that old adage, give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for life. That's really what we have to, I think, continually remind ourselves of as parents, because our main instinct is to nurture and to care for. But there comes an age, I think probably around like seven, eight, nine, where you need to start letting them do little things for themselves and, you know, teach them life skills so that they can become productive

members of society. And then you want that for them, right? You want that for them. You want them to be happy. You want them to have friends and a career and do things and have money of their own that they're proud that they made and they put in their own pockets. That's what you want for them. Even though it's hard in the beginning, in the end, it's the best thing for them. So we really hope that the families of Joel and Lisa Guy are doing okay, especially around the holidays now because this did happen around the holiday. And I'm sure the holidays for Joel Sr.'s children, his daughters, are never going to be the same again. And that really breaks my heart. So you've heard our opinions.

We want to hear yours. Okay. So make sure you head on over to our social media media Crime Weekly pod on either Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. Again, it's at Crime Weekly pod, or you can go over to www.crimeweeklypodcast.com. Click the contact page and you can either write us a message or you can leave us a voice message via speakpipe. And we really want to hear from you, not only about the format of the show, again, as Stephanie and I have said multiple times, we're learning here with you guys. We want to give you what you want. So we're always open to constructive criticism. But if you want to also weigh in on your opinions as far as this case is concerned or any other case, head on over. We'd love to hear it. Derek, before we go, should we give them a teaser, a little taste of what our next episodes will be? Yeah, we're working on the next script, the next investigation. It's going to be a case that probably most of you are familiar with, JonBenet Ramsey.

And, you know, you may think you know everything about the case, but stand by because we're already finding some things that probably needed to be addressed a little deeper. And we're going to do that. Thank you guys so much for being here with us. Crime Weekly, presented by i-D, is a co-production by Audioboom and Main Event Media.