Crime Weekly - S1 Ep54: Caylee Anthony: Family Ties (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 10, 2021

Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Agatha Christie once said that a mothers love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity, it dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path. Most parents feel that their main job is to protect their children from the terrors of the world, and they take this job very seriously, so when we hear of a child that seemingly was tossed to the side and forgotten, we have a very negative and visceral reaction. After all, children are the future, and they deserve a fighting chance. Two year old Caylee Marie Anthony had this chance stolen from her, she had her life stolen from her, and to this day we still don’t understand why. Caylee disappeared on June 16th, 2008, and it would take six months for the world to find out what had happened to her. Her skeletal remains were found inside a laundry bag, discarded in a wooded area. There was evidence that little Caylee’s mouth had been duct taped at the time of her death, and all eyes were on her young mother, Casey Anthony, who had failed to report the toddler missing for over a month, and during this time, Casey was seen at nightclubs and bars, having the time of her life.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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It dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path. Most parents feel that their main job is to protect their children from the terrors of the world, and they take this job very seriously. So when we hear of a child that seemingly was tossed to the side and forgotten, we have a very negative and visceral reaction. After all, children are the future and they deserve a fighting chance. Two-year-old Kaylee Marie Anthony had this chance stolen from her. She had her life stolen from her. And to this day, we still don't understand why. Kaylee disappeared on June 16,

2008, and it would take six months for the world to find out what had happened to her. Her skeletal remains were found inside a laundry bag, discarded in a wooded area. There was evidence that little Kaylee's mouth had been duct-taped at the time of her death, and all eyes were on her young mother, Casey Anthony, who had failed to report the toddler missing for 30 days. And during this time, Casey was seen at nightclubs and bars, having the time of her life. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are covering a case that I am very familiar with, that is very near and dear to my heart. Kaylee Anthony is very near and dear to my heart. And I know you're familiar with it too.

You did some work, some television work for this case, right? Yeah. How could you not be familiar with this case just as a human being? I think everybody who's anybody knows about this case. And I did some things, they call them talking head segments for, the last one I did was for Dr. Oz. But yeah, they bring you in, kind of reinvestigate the case in smaller segments. By no means is it like it's deep dive into the case itself, but you do have to do your research before you go on TV. So I'm familiar with it for sure. Well, hopefully some of the details we talk about over, you know, the next, I don't know, four or five parts will surprise you and we'll get some good reactions from you and we can get the detective perspective, which I think is sorely needed in

this case. Yeah, and I do apologize. I'm a little under the weather. So for people on audio who are listening, if I sound like crap, that's because I feel like it. If you're watching on video, then you're used to me looking like crap.

So it's not a big deal. Either way, you're on the same. We're all good here. He sounds and looks fine, but he is sick. Yeah, not feeling great, but we're going to tough through it. Yeah, the show must go on. Well, we,

we love to do deep dives on any and all cases here on crime weekly, but some cases they demand a deep dive to understand the people at the center and to attempt to understand the true motive for why any of this happened in the first place, especially when the person or persons who were involved claimed to be innocent of the crime. The murder of Lacey Peterson and her unborn child was one of these cases. We covered that recently. The need to get into the mind of Scott Peterson and to understand who he was and where he came from, that was very important for us. But Scott never came clean or

confessed what he had done. So we were left to wonder, what was his motive? You know, what was going on in his head before, during, and after? And what actually went down the day that Scott Peterson transformed from a loving and attentive husband to a brutal killer? The death of two-year-old Kaylee Anthony is another one of these cases. Her mother, Casey, was put on trial for her murder. She was found not guilty. But we all know, I'm not telling you anything new, that doesn't mean she's innocent just because a jury found her not guilty. And in my opinion, and from conversations I've had about this case, you know, very few people that I've talked to believe that she's innocent. Casey

Anthony never told us what happened to her daughter. And so we're left to put the pieces of this puzzle together to try and figure out what actually happened. And because Casey is such a complicated person, she's a compulsive liar, very much like Scott Peterson. We have to go back to the beginning and use her history and all the context that we can muster in order to try and understand the how, the where, and the why. Yeah, in this case, I agree with you that many people out there, many experts believe that Casey was directly involved in the death of Kaylee Anthony. And I think when you say, you know, she was a compulsive liar, it's not really an opinion. There were things in court that were brought up to prove that. Even her own father, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, she had made allegations against her

father at some point when they were no longer on good terms that he had also assaulted her when she was a child. There was a lot of narratives, a lot of stories coming out of Casey's camp that even her own parents disputed. I don't know what she's talking about. That never happened. So she made these allegations during the trial. Yeah, exactly. And she also accused her brother, Lee, of molesting her. Right. And there was a lot of things that came out, I believe, that were just proven not to be true. I guess I should say that some of the allegations made against

her father and her brother, I guess, could be true. I guess I should say that some of the allegations made against her father and her brother, I guess, could be true. It is hard to believe them considering why she was there in the first place, why she's on trial, right? All these other things. And I will say not to like spoil it, but part of the reason I think most people believe that Casey was involved was because there was really nothing ever that came out that was credible that would suggest otherwise there was really no other, um, stories or information that came out that was verified that would suggest, Oh, okay. Maybe there was an opportunity where Kaylee was taken by someone else. And this could have went down the way it was kind of portrayed to look like it had went down. As far as I know, from the limited investigative research that I've done,

there's really no other place. Are we going to go over theories in this whole series? Well, I mean, there's really, there's not a lot of theories. There's what everybody kind of believed happened. And then there's what Casey eventually said, which was that Kaylee drowned in the pool and then her father covered it up. So Casey eventually said, Kaylee drowned in the pool. It was an accident. And then my father, George Anthony, he said, don't tell anyone and we're going to take care of this. And then they

got rid of her body. That's basically what Casey said. Now, like you said, there's no evidence. There's nothing to back that up. That's just a claim. And it was used in court, I believe, to cast reasonable doubt, and maybe it did because she was found not guilty. But there's nothing to show that. And I mean, there's a medical examiner, Dr. G. You're familiar with her? No, I'm not. She's great. Dr. G, medical examiner. So she was actually the ME on this case. And she got so upset after I saw an interview with her. And Dr. G got really annoyed.

And she said there's no evidence to prove that Kaylee died from an accident. I mean, there was duct tape on this child's mouth that was still there when her skeleton was found. It still had her hair in the duct tape. So it's just a very, it's a strange case. I think that you're right. There's no evidence to show that George or Lee molested Casey when she was a child. She claims this, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. And I think maybe as we go through the background of this family, you might start to believe that it is more possible when we introduce you to George Anthony and Cindy Anthony and even Lee. that when you compare this case to Lacey Peterson, it's not as polarizing in the sense where there's not as much of a dissension between communities as far as like, she did it, she didn't do it. Where Scott Peterson, there's literally forums built to show how he's innocent.

Is that the case here or is it more one-sided? I agree with you. With Scott Peterson, even I would sit on the fence and be like, I really feel he did it, but it's so hard for me to really go that extra mile to say, yes, he did. Absolutely. With Casey Anthony, there's no forums online showing how she's innocent because there's no redeeming qualities to her. There's nothing you could do when you look at her movements in the days after her child went missing, when you see what she did, when you read the text messages she was sending people and what her main concern was in those 30 days when her child was gone. There's nothing that shows she's redeemable in any way, shape or form. Yeah, this one's going to be a hard one. I think in that sense that like it seems like a lot of even before Kaylee's death, a lot of negligence, right? Just as far as

her parental skills and how she treated Kaylee. So I'm sure it's going to be upsetting for some people. So be aware of that if you're not as familiar with the case, and maybe I'm sure some people aren't as familiar as they could be. I know I'm one of them. So I'll be weighing in and asking questions as we go, just like I did on Lacey. And we know you guys like that. So we'll do it again. Again, I know a little bit about the case, but I'm sure there's going to be a lot of things that I learn right along with you guys. So if I was asked to describe Casey Anthony and her family, I would say they were very surface level. They were very concerned with the way things appeared from an outside perspective, but they didn't seem to put too much energy into actually fixing issues behind closed doors. As a result, the Anthonys were secretive, detached, avoidant, and disingenuous.

And these are traits that I believe they share with members of Scott Peterson's family and Scott Peterson himself. The way the Anthonys would handle a problem would be to pretend it didn't exist, deny, lie, and justify, and then go on to act as if everything was okay and normal, even though it rarely was. And as we go through this, you will see so many similarities between Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony's, and many similarities in the dynamics of the Peterson family and the Anthony family. So on that note, let's talk about the Anthony family. But before we dive into that, let's take a quick break so we're not interrupting the next section.

Casey's mother, Cindy, was born in Niles, Ohio, the youngest child of Alexander and Shirley Plezia and the only daughter. Her three older brothers were named Rick, Gary, and Daniel. And these three older boys remembered that both of their parents had been very strict. But the parents also seemed to favor Cindy and they went a bit easier on her. So she would kind of get away with more. She would get yelled at less, etc. And because of this, Cindy's brothers, they gave her the nickname Princess.

And it seems like some resentment built between the siblings. Alexander Plezia was a disciplinarian who was described as a strange little man with a hell of a temper. But he was a hard worker and he'd often come home exhausted at the end of the day. Now, like Scott Peterson's mother, Alexander and his siblings had been placed in an orphanage at a young age after the sudden death of their mother. So basically, they were very young. Their mother died. Their father said, I can't take care of these kids. And he put them in an orphanage. Alexander himself was never adopted. And when he aged out of the system, he left high school and enlisted in the Navy. Even though Alexander was the man of the house,

his wife Shirley wore the pants in the marriage. Their son and Cindy's older brother Rick said, quote, she would just tell him what to do and he would listen. He was quiet around her because he was totally controlled by her. He could be talkative and laugh one-on-one, but when he was with my mother, he was almost silent, end quote. Now, Shirley had also been abandoned by her father, who left his family for another woman when Shirley was about three. And because of this, Shirley's mother had to work several jobs. She couldn't stay at home with the kids, and the kids kind of, you know, raised themselves. Shirley was also known to run a tight ship, and her children said she would verbally berate them if they showed up even a few minutes late for an event or for dinner. Shirley also had a habit of trash-talking people she didn't like behind their backs.

She would maliciously gossip about these people to her husband and children, and it left them all with the impression that if they felt short with her in some way, she would do the same to them. One of Cindy's brothers said, quote, It gave us the idea that you were supposed to fit her mold or else. She was a control freak. That's where my sister Cindy learned it. End quote. In the early days, the Plezia family had very little money, but when Cindy was about four, her father got a better paying job, and her mother began working part-time at Trumbull Memorial Hospital, so they were able

to move to a better house in a slightly nicer area. When Cindy finished school, she began working as a registered nurse, and that was where she met her future husband, George Anthony, who was at the hospital visiting his sister Ruth, who was sick, and Cindy happened to be her nurse. At the time, he was still married to his first wife, Terry Rosenberger. George and Terry had dated all throughout high school, and then when Terry got pregnant, George proposed to her and they got married in 1972. Sadly, this pregnancy ended in a miscarriage and Terry claims that George filed for divorce secretly, a fact she didn't know until a friend called her because they had read about it in the

court filings published in the local paper. Terry felt that George had been angry because he wanted kids. He apparently wanted a lot of kids. He wanted a house full of kids. He was known to really enjoy being around kids. And when she lost this child, he kind of gave her the impression like, this is the only reason why I married you because you were pregnant and now you're not. And now you're having trouble getting pregnant again. So I don't really want to be with you anymore. So, but you're saying, you're saying that. So basically he never told her he was filing for divorce. It wasn't until her friends called her up and said, Hey, I see you getting divorced in the newspaper.

And she was like, what? Yes. Yikes. That's an odd way of doing it. And they were still, were they still living together at the time? Yes. Or were they already separated? No, they were together.

That's an interesting conversation over breakfast. I mean. As you're reading the newspaper. That's what I'm saying, man. There's got to be more to that story. Casey Anthony's, not that we know of, not that Terry has said. Not that we know of, but there's got to be. Why are you giving George Anthony so much credit, man?

He's a creep. All right. George Anthony is a creep. He was a cop, right? I mean, I know we're going to talk about that. Okay. I don't want to go there, but it's like, I just, I mean, I'm not giving the guy credit and I'm sure, you know, I don't know who he is.

I wouldn't know him if he walked by me tomorrow, but it's like, he has to know he's going to, it's going to be a conversation if he's filing for it. Interesting. I think it's great that we're talking about this because it does go to show you the apple doesn't always fall far from the tree. The apple didn't even fall off the tree in this situation. The apple stayed on the tree and became its clone. And remember I said, the Anthony family deals with things by avoiding, by lying. They don't like confrontation. They don't like to deal with things directly. They want to pretend everything's perfect. And this is exactly how both George and Cindy behaved. And then we see this is how Casey behaves. Yeah, it's definitely, you know, kids do usually are a product of their

environment. And it does appear just from the initial impression yeah you're right the apple never left it never fell from the tree it just got absorbed into the trunk became a clone well you know terry and george they like patched things up for a little bit because i she you know she probably did confront him she's like what the hell and he's like oh that was a mistake you know made a stupid excuse they patched things up, but they did eventually separate. And Terry did not have the nicest things to say about her ex-husband. She she basically said he was nothing if he wasn't wearing a uniform. So in the mid 80s, when he was 22, George had been working as a sheriff's deputy for the Turnbull County Sheriff's Department.

And his wife, Terry, basically said he loved the uniform. That's why he wanted to be a police officer. And a source close to George Anthony said, quote, his interest in law enforcement wasn't wearing his uniform and driving around in his cruiser. It was like a disguise. I think it hit a lot of his weaknesses, end quote. Amazing what you can do when you can pass a psych, huh? This George Anthony is like a strange character, man. I wonder, you know, again, this was, what police department was this? Turnbull County Sheriff's Department in Ohio. Smaller department?

Probably, yeah. Probably, and again, we're talking- I mean, it's Ohio, so. Yeah, Ohio, you know, back in the day, the requirements to get on was basically like, hey, can you hold a gun? You're hired. You know, so it's, I mean, I would even say today, 2022. That's what I was going to say. The qualifications need to improve.

Yeah, a lot of people probably are like, oh, how cool to be a cop. I get to like drive around a police car with sirens and wear a uniform. And then they get in there and they're like, oh, there's more to it than that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's definitely more to it. But I would say, I mean, there are people still getting on today, not to make it about current events, but there are still individuals in big police departments that are able to slip through the cracks and get on, even though it's a lot harder than it once was. But you have individuals like this who come in with other intentions or

applying for the wrong reasons. And it may not be nefarious, but something like this, where it's like, oh, I thought it'd be cool to drive around in a cop car. Well, that's the wrong reason to be a public servant. But you can't really, most of the time, figure that out until they're already on. Yeah. They're not saying that in their interview. Why do you want to be a cop? I love the uniform, guys. Do I get my badge right away?

I love the badge. Yeah. They're not being pretty upfront with that. It's embarrassing. As former law enforcement, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing for George Anthony, man. Yeah, that too. Apparently, it didn't matter what the uniform was, though, because George had told his wife, Terry, that his dream was to one day live in Orlando, Florida and work at Disney World because he wanted to dress up as the Disney characters in the big costumes and then bring joy to all the little children.

OK. George, like I said, George Anthony seemed to really like kids. And a source close to him said, quote, George wanted a mother figure. He wanted to be babied. He liked hanging around with kids more than adults because they were no threat to him and no smarter. End quote. I mean, yeah. And this guy at this point was already a cop when he's making these. Yeah. He always wanted to be like a Disney character. Like I guess that was his dream. Okay. I mean, I don't know where I don't know what I say from there, Stephanie. I don't know either.

It's like I feel like it's it can't be true. No, I know it is. It's true. All right. Well, this source went on to say that George was secretive and detached. He either had a tough time connecting to other people or he didn't want to connect with other people. And he never let anyone get close or let anyone actually get to know him because, quote, there was nothing to know. At least there was nothing he would let you know.

End quote. And who does that sound like to you? It sounds like Casey. And Scott Peterson. Oh, I mean, yeah, definitely Scott Peterson. Yeah, I'm sure there's a psychological aspect to it where you start to even we think about Scott's mother, you know, and the parallels there, you know, I don't remember all the specifics, but there are a lot of similarities there.

So I'm sure there's something to it. And I'm sure there's people that are smarter than you and I who have developed experiments and kind of looked into the research to see the correlations between these types of individuals that get involved in these situations and how their previous environments with their families contributed to their actions and their behavior. But again, I'll speak for myself, I should say. Those people are smarter than I am. Listen, Scott Peterson's family is exactly like this. Concerned with the outside appearances, didn't care that the foundation was crumbling from the inside as long as nobody outside saw. And I do not understand people like this. I don't understand them. This is something I always try to be,

you know, unbiased and try to put myself in people's shoes. But I do not understand people that care more about what other people think than what the people in their home are feeling and doing and what kind of people they're becoming. It's just disgusting. Yeah, I agree. So George's marriage to Terry would eventually end. She claimed he was a compulsive liar and a compulsive gambler, and his former sister-in-law referred to him as a pussy and a mama's boy. But when he met Cindy, he was still legally married to Terry, a fact that Cindy kept from her family. Now, when we later ask ourselves how Casey Anthony turned out the way she did, we will look to her parents, her role models, to answer that question. Because Cindy knew very well that George was still married to Terry, but she didn't want her family to know because all she cared about was what it looked like, not what it really was.

The Anthony's first child was born on November 20th, 1982, and his parents named him Lee after George's father. That was Scott Peterson's father's name, too, wasn't it? Lee Peterson. It was. Yikes. It's almost like we're in some weird like Mandela effect universe. For a few years, the little family lived a normal, happy, middle American life. But in 1985, things began to go downhill. Cindy decided that she wanted to stop working. She wanted to be a stay-at-home mother, spend more time with her son. So she convinced George to quit his job at the sheriff's department, a job he held for 10 years, and join his father at Anthony's Auto Sales and Service. It's a used car lot.

Apparently, Cindy, we know she grew up poor. She didn't have a lot of money. She was itching to get a taste of the finer things in life. And she was jealous that her sister-in-law was able to live a more comfortable life financially because her husband and George's brother was running a successful car dealership in Austintown, Ohio. Cindy was far more concerned with how much money her husband was bringing home than his quality of life and contentment with his career. And it has been said by people who know the Anthonys that Cindy could be very intense if you didn't do things her way. Very much like her mother, Shirley, right?

Like who would get mad at people if they came a couple minutes late for dinner? Now, those close to her, to Cindy, they'd feel compelled to hide things from her in order to protect themselves from her disapproval because if she didn't like what they were doing, she'd find a way to punish them emotionally or mentally. She could become very withholding. She would give affection. She would give love. She would give you whatever you wanted, and you would sort of get drunk off of that and be like, this is awesome. And then the second you do something she doesn't like, she's stone cold to you. And this is emotional abuse. It's abuse. So on that note, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Okay, we're back. So George Anthony, he did not want to sell used cars with his father, but he also didn't want to rock the boat at home. Because remember, Cindy can be very intoxicating. She can make you feel very loved, very accepted. But the miserable there. George did not have the best people skills, and he had no desire to schmooze potential customers into buying vehicles. A source close to George Anthony said, quote,

George wasn't interested in dealing with customers. He didn't want to talk to people. He thought of them as dirty. He's very obsessive. George's father even enrolled him in a Dale Carnegie course and paid for it to try and help him warm up, but he just couldn't, end quote. Now, of course, we're talking about the Dale Carnegie who wrote the book How to Win Friends and Influence People. Carnegie's writings were turned into courses which were actually offered at prisons. And Charles Manson, the cult leader, actually excelled in this course. And it's said that he used what he learned to transform into the charismatic cult leader he would become because it makes sense. That's quite the endorsement, huh? Yeah, I don't know. It's a very popular book. I mean, a lot of people have a lot of success stories because of that book. I know it was a book that I read before writing my book. I wanted to be inspired. There was a couple books that I read and that was definitely one of them. And so that you will see like elements of that in my writing because I was influenced by, by Dale. Um, it's interesting to me though,

that he wasn't this sociable person and yet he wanted to kind of, he wanted to work with children. He doesn't want to talk to adults. Children don't make him feel stupid. Children don't challenge him. Children don't make him feel stupid. Children don't challenge him. Children don't make him feel inept and inferior. Okay. So it's not necessarily that he's not a sociable person. He just feels intimidated by others who are around his same mental capacity. So he likes to be the smartest person in the room. I would say that an adult who prefers the company of children and can't communicate

with other adults is definitely a non-sociable person. You were stunted somewhere. Right? Yeah. I mean, listen, you're the psych major. I find all this stuff very fascinating and it's interesting. Again, I'm assuming his father asking him or paying for him to go to these courses can be, this isn't something you're pulling out of thin air. This actually happened. So there's definitely proof. That's expensive too, by the way, those courses are not cheap. But you know, it's one thing for someone to say like a source to say, oh, he wasn't a sociable guy. It's another thing to see that his father literally paid for courses to try to help him

with his interpersonal skills, his communication skills, because that really backs up what you're saying. And again, for me, it ties back to him being the type of person who really isolated himself from other adults. And there's no way down the road, I know she's not there yet, but that Lee and Casey, this type of behavior wouldn't rub off on them. Usually you emulate your parents and George was her father. So I'm sure a lot of the things that we're going to talk about when it comes to Casey, we're probably going to find, again, those parallels to George's behavior prior to her being born. Yeah. I find with kids,

they can go one of two ways, right? You either turn out exactly like your parents or the exact opposite because you remember how much it sucked and you're like, I never want to do that. I never want to be that. It traumatizes you. Yeah, like you have someone who has grew up in a home of alcoholics

and literally won't take a sip of alcohol. They won't drink or they grew up with an abusive father and they're like, I would never lay a hand on my child because I remember how much that sucked. Yeah, that's a great point. It's a great point. It's a great point.

It could be one thing where you just kind of dive into the same path or- The exact opposite path. Yeah, like literally you become to hate it. Anything that even resembles it or even people who conduct themselves in a similar manner, you're like, nope, can't mess with you. You're triggered by that or you see it in yourself and you hate that part of yourself and you try to suppress it and you try actively to make sure it doesn't rear its ugly head. But yeah, I think for Casey, she like leaned into it, man.

She leaned into it. She wasn't like, I don't want to be like my parents. This is horrible. They're, you know, emotionally manipulative and they avoid everything and they lie. She was like, this is awesome. Let's do it, guys. Let's make it a family affair. But even as a car salesman, right, and without the law enforcement uniform, George Anthony figured out a way to put on his armor. Tim Given, he was a

business owner who kind of his business was near the car dealership, and he came to know George and his father, Lee. He said, quote, George's hair was like a mannequin's, not a hair out of place. He wore his clothes like a uniform, perfectly pressed, end quote. Now, of course, since George didn't really want to be there at the car dealership and his father was trying to push him into becoming a better salesperson, the two men argued constantly during the three years that they worked together. And it all came to a head one day while they were shouting at each other in the showroom of the dealership. A witness claimed that Lee pushed his son and George pushed back,

throwing Lee backwards and through a plate glass window. And Lee had to be hospitalized for this. Yeah, that's a former police officer, by the way. Yeah. To get to that point where you're pushing your own father through a plate of glass is pretty extreme. It's gross. Regardless of the reasoning behind it, right? Right. I agree. Yeah. There's no justification for it. But for our

purposes, right? It's not just sensationalizing it to make a good story. What we're talking about later is George's daughter. So again, we talk about the physical things that Casey might have seen as far as behavior. Well, what did she inherit, you know, genetically, right. Predispositions, you know, to violence or whatever it may be not saying that's the case, but again, as we're trying to get the whole 360 degree perspective on not only Casey, but her family and, and what influenced her, these types of stories are very important. Cause I guarantee you most people who are just looking up articles or reading the news, they didn't see these types of stories. Right. I mean, unless you're really involved with the case, you probably didn't know about this.

But when you're trying to understand an individual and what they're capable of, this is something that's extremely valuable to know. Very. And, you know, are you kind of suggesting that maybe Casey could have inherited a short fuse, maybe a temper from her father, from her grandfather? Remember, they said that Cindy's father was an odd little guy with a hell of a temper and her mother surely would also just, you know, go off on you if you showed up two minutes late for dinner. So this is not necessarily a genetic thing, but it's what you showed up two minutes late for dinner. So this is not necessarily a genetic thing, but it's what you grow up seeing that makes an impact. Right. And I'm a believer in by no means, again, I always qualify it by saying I'm not a scientist,

I'm not a psychologist, but I do believe, yeah, a lot of it is learned through your parents or your brothers and sisters. But I do think there might be something inside of us too that you have a switch. For me personally, and I've always been able to keep it in control as an adult, my dad wasn't really someone who was a fighter, but I have always had that ability where it took a lot to get me there. But once I got there, the Irish temper would come out of me. And that's something where my mother would tell me my grandfather was the same way. And yet I never witnessed that with my grandfather. I never saw it with my own eyes, but she said she saw a lot of me in him. So I do think there's some genetic hereditary type thing there where it's ingrained in you.

And that may be a good thing or in some cases it can be a bad thing where you're a product of the people who you, you know, your relatives that you may not even know that well, but something that you inherited from them and you don't realize it until you're put into a similar situation and you can't believe the levels you can go to. I never got there, but as we get further in this series and we're looking at what Casey could have been capable of, this is something to keep in consideration as far as, you know, could she have lost her temper in the same way that George lost his temper? Well, I think that's fair to say that could happen, right? Absolutely. When you have this type of research that you can look back at and say, yeah, not only could it happen, it did happen. And there's evidence that we'll go over that Casey did have a temper, that Casey had a temper, Cindy had a temper, Lee had a temper,

George had a temper. And it's that old nurture versus nature thing. Right. And I think the answer at the end of the day is it's 50 50. Yeah, I'm with you there. I agree. So later, George would tell law enforcement that the reason he stopped working for his father was because Lee had been given the opportunity to sell the business. But in actuality, he was fired after this assault. And there was a wedge driven between father and son. So after this, George was reportedly very depressed, and he attempted to take his own life. Cindy's brother Rick said that George took a whole bottle of aspirin and his stomach had to be pumped. And the reason Rick felt George was so despondent that he had attempted to take his own life was because of the domineering and controlling tactics used by his wife, Cindy. Rick said, quote, We knew George was weak and weak-minded. He was being molded by Cindy into doing things he didn't want to do.

She took his life. End quote. So we're going to take a quick break and come back to tell you the rest of the story. All right, so George Anthony gets fired by his dad. He's not a cop anymore. He has no uniform or freshly pressed clothes to put on in the morning. And not only was this taxing him mentally, but obviously financially as well. The Anthony's money problems started in 1985. And that was when Cindy basically said, quit being a cop and go work at this car dealership. And they started having some issues with money because George wasn't a good salesperson. And the following year, they welcomed another child into the world. Casey Marie Anthony, born March 19th, 1986.

She was described as a spirited and energetic child who was full of personality and loved to make others smile and laugh. Casey would go on to attend Colonial High School in Orlando, where she had a large circle of friends and boyfriends throughout high school. Her favorite subjects were math and physical education. She was an excellent student throughout most of her high school career. She even won an award for Best Helper and another award for Exemplary Citizenship. When she wasn't in the classroom, Casey was busy with a plethora of other activities. She ran track, she played volleyball and soccer, she was part of a travel club, and her favorite hobby was photography, a passion she had held onto since

she was a child. Now, Casey liked to dress up and look pretty, but she was described as a tomboy. Later, she would be given evaluations by several mental health professionals who revealed that her interests leaned more to the masculine and she preferred the company of men to women. When speaking about Casey, Dr. William Weitz said, quote, she always had a man in her life, I think for protection and security, more emotional. My thinking was that she always had a male replacement a boyfriend when she ended a relationship end quote so what he basically means is she'd be in a relationship with someone and that she would tire of that person but before she broke up with that person

she'd have somebody else lined up so that she could just jump from you know one bed to the other essentially like a serial monogamist i have a question for you. With your background, is it, I'm sure it's not always the case, but is it fair for me to say that when you have a young girl like this, who's, as you put it, you know, jumping from bed to bed or always having that male figure in her life, can this sometimes be suggestive that she did have an experience when she was younger with a male counterpart in the home that, you know, there might be signs of some type of sexual assault molestation there. Absolutely. It can be now.

That doesn't mean that it always is automatic. Yeah. It doesn't mean it always is. So it doesn't mean that every girl out there who just likes to be in a relationship or, you know, doesn't like to have gaps between relationships that that's the case for, for them.

But yeah, that that's a, that's a known side effect. I would say. They call it daddy issues sometimes. I mean, I can tell you personally that I haven't had a ton of examples of it, but there were in the limited amount of experience that I did have with it where we had a young girl usually that was a wayward child that was constantly running away. And when we found her, she was usually at her boyfriend of the week's house. And it was clear based on conversations that they were sexually involved with each other. It wasn't just friends.

In the occasions where we got them to open up, because, you know, you try to get close with them, understand the root of the issue, why they don't want to be at home. I would tell you that 90% of the time there was some type of molestation going on in the home. There was always a tie to the dad or the boyfriend or the step or some type of relationship. An uncle, some sort of male senior figure. Yeah, which made them not want to be there and basically wanted to be with, like you said, another man that could protect them. And it wasn't necessarily that they wanted to be with, like you said, another man that could protect them. And it wasn't necessarily that they wanted to have sex with those guys, but they felt like

the only way for them to want to be around them was to have sex with them, which is super sad. So sad. But that's always what I found. They used their bodies to get them in the door so that they could stay there and feel protected when it was never really about them being promiscuous or wanting to have sex. It was the only currency they had in order to be there, which is fucking horrible. But that was the reality of what we usually when we got to the root of the issue, that was usually the problem. Absolutely. And I've seen it happen, too, with just, you know, abandonment, like you're you're a young girl and your father leaves,

your parents get divorced, your father leaves, and he just doesn't, you know, abandonment. Like you're a young girl and your father leaves. Your parents get divorced, your father leaves, and he just doesn't, you know, he doesn't see you anymore. And then they try to find a replacement for that father figure. They try to find a replacement for that male figure in their life. So it can happen for a plethora of reasons, but who knows why Casey did it. I mean, she was an attractive girl. She may have just attracted men to her. She was very charismatic. She could turn on the charm just like her mother, Cindy. She could shower you with love and affection and make you feel like the most special person in the entire world. So that can be attractive to a lot of men as well. And we're not cheerleaders for Casey by no means. I'm a

cheerleader for anyone who needs a cheerleader, but no, I'm not a cheerleader for Casey freaking Anthony. Yeah. We're not setting up excuses for the long-term as far as this series goes, but- But credit where credit's due, right? We're here trying to be impartial as much as we can. And I'm definitely trying, where I'm trying to understand the whole picture, not just the last two episodes that we're going to cover, which is mostly what people already know, right? This is some of the stuff where it's like, okay, let's really look at this pragmatically and try to evaluate each piece of evidence in it of itself and see if there's value there. And I do think it's important where we're trying to establish

our level of credibility for Casey. Because again, I know what people say about her and I know all that, but me looking at it through my own lens, you know, she made accusations later in trial that she was molested by her dad. Well, there's no way in high school she knew that she was going to be in a position one day where she was going to have to pull that card out to try to save herself. So I do think this type of behavior, the fact that it can be, you can go back and kind of cross-reference it and determine whether it's true or not is valuable because her behavior is indicative of somebody who's had a traumatic experience. So I take it, I'm noting it because I do think it's important. Yeah.

I mean, there's bad people that do bad things, but it doesn't mean bad things didn't happen to them. Of course. That's a great way of saying it. Absolutely. Doesn't justify it, but it doesn't mean that there isn't some truth to what they've said about their own past experiences and how they contributed to where they are as far as we know them. Exactly. So her friends in high school and, you know, even after high school said that Casey was a very agreeable person.

She was not aggressive. She was not opinionated. She was very pleasant. Somebody said you'd be hard pressed to not like her. But Casey did have a tendency to avoid conflict at any cost. Michelle Murphy, this is a woman who'd been friends with Casey since they were teenagers, she said, quote, there's no conflict, no contentiousness, no approaching her with an issue and getting her to argue about it. She would simply not engage. If you were going to confront her on an issue, she would already be gone. If you wanted to call her on something she had done or be angry with her, she would sense it and be nowhere to be found. She could diffuse things or push them away or make you feel like maybe you had misunderstood her. I remember talking to her about some guy that I thought maybe she had shown an interest in when I was still with him. She made me feel badly for even thinking that. She was like, I would never. You have to believe me. End quote. That's called gaslighting. That's called gaslighting when somebody feels like, yo, I think you're doing this to me. And

the person's like, no, no, no. And they turn it around on you. And they're like, how could you even think that about me? Like now all of a sudden you're the bad person for thinking that when there's plenty of evidence that it's happening. And then the person's like, no, how dare you? That's what Casey did. Michelle also spoke about Casey's relationship with her older brother, Lee, who apparently would get very protective of his sister if anyone dared to challenge her. Michelle said, quote, we were all very familiar with her pattern, and Lee was a very good big brother. You didn't want him holding a grudge, so nobody was going to say to Casey, we've got to talk. You wouldn't want to offend Lee by pressing his little sister.

He'd get up in your face and be like, you know how she is. Really? Are you surprised about this? You can't just let her be. You know her, end quote. So what do you think about Michelle describing Lee's behavior like this? You know, I could see how someone would take it and not sit well with them. I can't be a hypocrite. I know there's people out there that are probably listening or watching this that'll call me out on it. There were times where my sister would get into situations. My younger sister would get into some problems and, um,

you know, I would defend her whether she was right or wrong. It's kind of like the big brother move, but, um, without knowing the true context of what he was defending her for or justifying it, you know, I don't want to sit here and be like, Oh, shame on him. Cause I'm definitely guilty of doing a variation of that. Um, so it doesn't raise like any huge flags for me, like some of the other things we've talked about. But I think it's worth noting for sure, because even when she was wrong, it looks like there was someone there to make excuses for her. That's why it's important. It's the lack of accountability. Yeah, it's the lack of accountability. There's always somebody there to make an excuse for for Casey when she's out of pocket. She's acting, you know, a fool. And her friends don't even feel

comfortable to confront her and say, you're acting like a fool because they know Lee's going to get in their face and be like, well, you just know this is how she is. Right. They're enabling her. So I'm with you there. I'm with you there. That's what I take away from that. And, you know, Michelle had more to say about Casey, which I think personally is incredibly relevant in telling since we know how this story ends. Casey's friend Michelle said that Casey had an on and off switch for her emotions and that quote, either one of us could get to a stage where we would be like, that's enough worrying or being upset. So I'm over it. Let's go out, flip a switch. It's over, forgotten, time to move on. In high stress situations, I think we could both disassociate, just shut it off, period.

She never really had long-term intimate friendships. They were all short and passionate, just like her romantic relationships, where she'd be very observant and affectionate and offer lots of words of affirmation, and then she'd move on. We've known each other a very long time, all through school, and we became friends, but it's like a butterfly. You see her, and then she's gone." But Casey's circle of friends, they called her mom because she was always the one to make sure everyone got home safe. She wasn't a drug user and she didn't really drink a lot. She never drank to get drunk because she didn't like to be out of control. And she never wanted to find herself in a conversation with someone where she would end up talking more deeply about real things,

like who she actually was or what she was all about. And this is very much how people would describe Scott Peterson, smiling and happy on the outside. Nothing was ever wrong. Everything was always copacetic. No one could ever get a peek into the actual turmoil that was happening inside of his head, the darkness that I'm sure was inside of his head. He completely concealed it, similar to George Anthony, who liked to wear a uniform to hide his weaknesses. And this theme can be applied not only to Casey, but like I said, her parents as well. When George Anthony lost his job at his father's dealership, he was desperate. So he took out a

second mortgage on his family's home in Ohio. And in 1987, he used this money to start his own car dealership that he named George Anthony's Auto Sales. It's original. It's not original. It's the worst name. Like his father was Anthony's Auto Sales and George Anthony's like, well, that's taken. Let's just call it George Anthony's Auto Sales. It's too long, George. Keep it simple. Keep it simple.

Keep it simple, stupid. But George wasn't a businessman or a people person. So it's really not the smartest decision if you're not good with business, if you're not good with money, and you don't like people. It's not a good idea to open your own business. So within two years, the dealership had gone under. The Anthonys had to file for bankruptcy and the bank took their house. Cindy Anthony claimed she had been completely in the dark about their financial problems and she was just shocked one day when her husband came home and told her they were broke. So we're going to take one more break and then for the rest of the episode, we are ad free. So psychiatrist Dr. Keith Abloh, he wrote a book about Casey Anthony, and he has a theory on why George may have withheld

this information from his wife that they were in bad financial situations. In his book, Abloh wrote, quote, maybe George hadn't told Cindy about their looming financial problems because he was too afraid of pulling the needle filled with Cindy's special brew of neediness, sex, criticism, control, and contrived compassion out of his arm. That would have been the same as him not getting high by gambling, the same as heroin addicts quitting heroin cold turkey. It would have brought on terrifying feelings of anxiety and paralyzing despondency connected to all of the suffering he had been trying to keep a lid on by trying to keep his hair perfectly in place and his uniforms perfectly pressed and his luck alive on internet gaming sites and his mind focused on female body parts. It would also have been his only chance to save himself from a life spent not truly alive, enslaved by his fear and self-loathing to a woman who behaved as though she embraced

both those qualities in him. End quote. So after losing basically everything, the Anthonys wanted to start fresh. So they moved from Niles, Ohio to Orlando, Florida in 1989. Now, Cindy's parents had already relocated to Mount Dora, Florida a few years prior, and Cindy wanted to be closer to them. She got a job working for an orthopedic surgeon, and she purchased a home at 4937 Hope Spring Drive in Orlando. And the way she was actually able to purchase this house with the state of her finances and the state of their credit after bankruptcy and everything, she did

this by assuming the high interest loan of the family that had been living there. So George and Cindy, they closed on this house on October 4th, 1989. They took their two small children to Florida for a fresh start. Casey was just about three years old and Lee was almost seven. George Anthony began working at the Orlando Centroplex as a security guard. He left that job. He began working at Snappy Car Rental as a salesperson. He quit that job too. And then he began working at the Orlando Sentinel where he apparently injured his knee on the job. So some people say he worked security for the Orlando Sentinel,

but some people also say he was like a paper boy for the Orlando Sentinel. And that's when he hurt his knee. Quick thing. We're going back. I see that this happened. You were just mentioning that this happened in 1989. So at this point, Casey was only three years old when they made this move to Florida, right? But we were talking earlier, just in case anyone is a little lost with it, we were talking earlier about some of the behavior

that Casey displayed through high school. Obviously, we're going back and forth in the timeline here. So when we're talking about Casey and the things that she did later in life, that was before this incident. So now we're backtracking to how this all came to be. Yeah, just for a second. Right. Gotcha. I'm with you. After he wasn't working for the Orlando Sentinel anymore, George began working at Falcon, Termite and Pest Control. But his inability to hold on to a job and actually, you know, stay there long enough to advance in that company and get raises and, you know, better benefits. This left Cindy to be the main breadwinner while George racked up online gambling debt and credit card debt. But Casey Anthony, she was growing up in Florida. She became a beautiful and outgoing young woman

who had an active social life and an active social media life. Casey Anthony loved social media. She spent so much time on social media. She communicated with so many people on social media, and we're going to get to that. But I think that it says something when somebody's that invested in social media. Don't you think like it's kind of very emblematic of someone who wants to present a certain face and a certain image to the world and they can do that on social media because no one can get close enough to you to see who you really are. They just see what you choose to show them. So it's very symbolic for me. Oh, yeah. I mean, and that goes with a lot of people, even people that haven't done or been accused of the things that Casey's been accused

of, where we see it on social media all the time. And it's gotten even worse with like the ability to alter your face and make yourself look a certain way and profile pics. It's crazy. But yeah, you're right. You can present the narrative that you want, the image that you want through your social media, that you want individuals who are maybe friends from high school, whatever people you're associating with to see you in a certain light. And because you have that, I guess we'll call it post-production where before anybody sees it, you can control that narrative. It allows you to kind of to do that. And that's a common theme we see with a lot of people, especially a lot of kids nowadays where nothing is what it appears to be. You got celebrities standing in front of private jets that they don't own, but presenting it as if they do. It's a crazy world we're living in, crazy times. What are you talking about? It's great. Everyone can look like a Kardashian now. I mean, online, on Instagram. The fact that you had to say, everyone can look like a kardashian

like that's the that's the that's what we're going for here now i mean it's not what i'm going for but if you want that then that's cool i'm just the fact that they're in that conversation you know that's what we're that's where we're at right now no kardashian slander here i'm just saying like if that's that's what we're striving for now people no no kardashian slander at all i love those girls man they're very interesting yeah i'm pretty sure chloe's oj's daughter so yikes you've never heard that i have i have they look identical not now not now with instagram filters and plastic surgery she she doesn't look like him as much now but come on admit it just admit i mean yeah i don't know that whole family to me i haven't i'm not a kardashian stan by any means i haven't kept up

with it but yeah maybe you weren't keeping up with the kard't, I'm not a Kardashian stan by any means. I haven't kept up with it, but yeah, maybe. You weren't keeping up with the Kardashians? I'm not keeping up with, well played Stephanie Harlow. I tip my cap to you. That was well done. That was well done. Oh, felt good. That was a good one. You're going to, you're going to hand your cap on that one for a while.

That was good. For a while. Yeah, that was witty. Yeah. I got nothing after that. We'll just leave it on that note. Yep. For a while. Yeah, that was witty. Yeah, I got nothing after that. We'll just leave it on that note. Yep. Let you go out on the high note right there. Really for Casey, anyone looking from the outside in, they would have thought she had a really bright future ahead of her. She was smart. She was beautiful, charismatic, lots of friends.

Nobody disliked her. She had a lot of things going for her. But behind closed doors, things were not good in the Anthony home. And they would continue to get worse because Casey was a lot of things, all of the things I just said, but also she was a compulsive liar. Years before she became a mother, Casey was stealing, lying, and hiding from almost everyone she knew. In fact, I would say everyone she knew. I don't think that I could pinpoint to you one person in her life that she was ever completely honest with. Casey was supposed to graduate with her class, her high school class in 2004. And she'd been doing great in school, right? But in her senior year, she started skipping classes and not handing assignments in.

And because of this, she was informed by the school that she would not be walking the stage with her classmates. But Casey failed to mention this to her parents. Now, let's be honest. She didn't fail to mention it. She didn't forget to tell them. She doesn't want to have any confrontation. She doesn't want to come clean about anything. She doesn't want any repercussions, so she just didn't tell them. So Cindy and George planned a big graduation party. They sent out invitations. They invited her grandparents to come and watch the ceremony, watch Casey graduate. They had no idea what was going on, allegedly. I honestly am going to say this several times during the series. I think a lot of the times that Cindy and George were like, we had no idea. I think they did have an idea. I think they chose to ignore it because it didn't

fit with what they wanted to believe. So a few weeks before graduation, Casey's parents were like, hey, where's your cap and gown? You know, when you graduate from high school, you have to order that stuff and then you get it, they send it to you and then you have it for graduation. But she didn't have her cap and gown yet. So Casey was like, oh yeah, the school made a mistake and they forgot to order my cap and gown. But don't worry, I'm handling it. It'll be here. But then a few days before graduation, the school called the Anthony's at home and they were like, did you know your daughter's not going to graduate? And Cindy and George were like, what? That's crazy. But they did not cancel the graduation party. They didn't inform their friends and family that the graduation

ceremony was not happening. They didn't even send gifts and money back to the out-of-town relatives who had mailed them to Casey. So you got all these people with invitations who were like, was not happening. They didn't even send gifts and money back to the out-of-town relatives who had mailed them to Casey. So you got all these people with invitations who are like, we can't come because we live out of state or whatever. We'll just send money. They didn't send their money back. With the Anthonys, the show must always go on. And go on it did. When Casey's grandparents sat in the audience at Colonial High School's graduation ceremony, they were confused when Casey was not amongst the students collecting their diplomas. When they asked why Casey wasn't walking the stage, Cindy lied, just like her daughter. She said that the school had messed something up,

but don't worry, Casey is graduating. She did graduate. She just wasn't able to walk the stage. Then they all went to this grand graduation ceremony and acted as if Casey had graduated. And then, you know, they went to this graduation party and celebrated and Casey opened gifts and said, thank you. And everyone's walking around. Congratulations, graduate. And she's like, thanks, guys. And she never graduated. And after this, Casey never returned to high school to get her diploma. It was all about the image, what it looked like from the outside. And Cindy's brother, Rick, said, quote, Cindy didn't want any negative news to come out of her house, end quote. Now, for Casey, this must have sent a very problematic message, right? You can mess up. You can dig yourself in so deep that it feels like you might never get out. But there will be no repercussions and you won't ever have to be held accountable if you just lie your way out of it and pretend that everything is fine. Yeah, I have a couple. I mean, there's so much here to unpack.

Just to go back so I don't forget what I originally wanted to ask. We talked about how Casey was doing very well in school, right? She was loved by everybody. She was very attentive, one of the top students in her class. And then her senior year, something changed. Do we know, was there anything that occurred between that junior and senior year that may have been the reason behind that behavioral change? The catalyst. I don't know. They've never said.

Nothing that we know of. No. Could have been a guy. Probably. Because do we think, are we to believe that she was involved in like drugs and alcohol prior to that? No, she wasn't. Like she was, it was very well known that Casey didn't, she drank, but she never got drunk and she didn't do drugs. Even in her senior year. Yep. She didn't do drugs and she didn't even, she didn't cigarettes, and she didn't like when people smoked cigarettes around her.

So she kind of had this straight-laced attitude, but also I think that that was a little bit of a show. Because somebody like that, when you're around all these kids your age, and they're all drinking and smoking and experimenting, and you want to be set apart, you want to be different, you want to stand out in a way, she's going to be the one who's like, oh, no, I don't do that stuff. And people are like, oh, what's going on? There's an allure to Casey Anthony because she doesn't drink and smoke, but she's so beautiful and cool. And, you know, we want to be around her. It's kind of part of her ploy, I think, to stand out and get attention.

But as far as I know, she was not into drugs at this time or ever. I think it was probably a guy or probably just her saying, I'm sick of school and I don't feel like going today. And then that just kind of snowballed. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, again, it doesn't change where we're going with this, but I wonder, you know, it's hard not to wonder what happened that changed the trajectory that she was on. You know, I wonder what it was. And if that hadn't occurred, if there was something, where would we be right now if that hadn't occurred? Would we be having this conversation? I firmly believe that we probably wouldn't. I do believe that things happen in life that change your course and can change for the worse and put you on a path of

some really bad things to come. And if it wasn't for her doing so well in school up to that point, I would say, you know, maybe this was just something that was in the home from the time she was very young and she just never was able to get out on her own and become who she was meant to be in a good way. But the fact that she did so well all the way up to her junior year, that's a long time with all the influences and temptations that you have in high school. We've all experienced it for her to do so well for so long.

And then in the last year, kind of just stumble at the finish line. That's unfortunate. Now that I'm thinking about it, and I have to double check and fact check myself and look at the dates and stuff, and we're going to get more into this in the next part, but there was a point, and it may have been right around this time, Casey's senior year, where Cindy and George, Casey's parents, were in real bad, their relationship was really bad. And Cindy actually kicked George out of the house, and he filed for divorce. And then she found out that he filed for divorce. And then a lawyer told her like, if he divorces you because he's not working right now because he was like had a knee injury and he was kind of in and out of jobs, he's not only going to ask you for alimony,

but he's going to ask you to sell the house and he's going to take half of it. And you know, you're going to be in a really bad position. So then Cindy was like, all right, George, you can come back home. This may have been right around Casey's senior year. And I'll have to double check myself and the dates and everything, but that could be traumatic. And I mean, I'm sure there was a lot of fight fights happening at the house around this time. And Casey may have just wanted to escape and she probably didn't feel like going to school. And maybe she was being kept up late because her parents were fighting. And then she just said, screw it. Who knows? But that could be something that's relevant. It doesn't have to be some crazy thing. It could be something as simple as that. Like you just said, something where she was on this path and

for some reason, a situation really got to her and it just affected her mentally and threw her off her game as far as what she found valuable in her own life. That may have changed. Her perspective may have changed based on things that she was seeing or things that she was hearing. And a lot of times it isn't in the household. Now, that doesn't mean it couldn't have been something that happened with, like you had said earlier, a boyfriend or a friend who was maybe a bad influence. Who knows?

The second thing, going back to the parents, you talked about this whole graduation situation. Do you believe, because it's definitely problematic, as you said, 100% agree with you there. Do you believe that when it comes to Cindy and George, they were doing this more as trying to be supportive parents or they were doing it more for self-serving reasons to protect their own image? Self-preservation, 100 million percent, they were not doing it to be supportive. How are you being supportive when you lie and let your daughter take money for a graduation that never happened? That's not

being supportive. Yeah. And then you don't even have her go back to school and actually graduate to legitimize it in some way, you know, like because if that's my kid, I'm going to be like, oh, you think you're going to you're going to leave school now? You think you're going to leave school now, bitch? Oh, no. Yeah. No, I lied to everyone. We took money think you're gonna leave school now bitch oh no yeah no i lied to everyone we took money and you're gonna graduate and i don't care what the hell you do after but you are gonna graduate you're not gonna make me look like a fool no it was 100 self-preservation god forbid anybody should look at cindy or george as bad parents and i think it was mainly coming from cindy because she did have these um she felt she had these big shoes to fill and you know she didn't want anybody to think think less of her look down on her so yeah 100 self-preservation in my opinion so the

the self-preservation the things they were doing for their own personal reasons for their own personal images was essentially enabling casey to say hey this is acceptable 100 right as long as i'm doing it for myself to protect my image then then it's okay. Yes. So that is a sign of things to come. As anybody who knows how the story ends, these are the things that are important to understand. Before there was Kaylee Anthony, these are the types of things that were happening in Casey's life. we get into the series later and we start talking about the the Universal Studios story, which to me is the just most mind blowing part of this case where where Casey literally brought these detectives to Universal Studios, telling them she worked there and walked them around for like an hour, like, oh, where's my office? And then finally looked and was like, I don't work here.

You know, like she literally would just deny, deny, deny until there's no way out. And I wonder where she learned it from. Again, sounds like someone else we know. We always go back to our guy. Scott Peterson. Exactly, man. He always had. Exactly. Deny, deny, deny.

And then there's always like a reason like, oh, no, you know, I didn't. I didn't actually say my wife died. I said I lost her. Yeah. Yep. Yep. One thousand percent. So after her failed high school experiment, Casey continued living with her parents rent free with no responsibilities or expectations.

And in June of 2004, she began working for Event Imaging Studios. And her job was to work the Kodak picture kiosk at Universal Studios. So essentially, you know, she'd walk around the park, take pictures of park visitors, and then try to sell them these pictures as souvenirs. And, you know, we've all been accosted by one or two of these people in the past. And I'm over here, like, I have a cell phone, dude. I'm all right. But they always try to sell you these pictures for like $35. And, you know, she was actually good at her job. She liked photography. So nobody had any complaints. She did a good job. She seemed to be, you know she was actually good at her job she liked photography so nobody had any complaints she did a good job she seemed to be you know selling her pictures but it was here in january

of 2005 that she met a man who would become very pivotal in her life for several years to come his name was jesse grund and jesse was working as an undercover security guard for the loss prevention department at Universal Studios and Casey caught his eye. Jesse said, quote, I saw this young woman, short, very beautiful, carried herself very professionally, working one of the Kodak stores, and it was love at first sight. She was definitely my type and we just hit it off and started dating. And the next thing you know, I'm falling in love with her. End quote. The relationship moved quickly, and it was very intense from very early on. Within two weeks,

Casey had told Jesse that she loved him. And although Jesse felt, you know, it was kind of early to say this, even though he was feeling the same like passionate emotions, he was like, this kind of early to like say it out loud. He also felt that deep connection immediately. And Casey knew how to make a guy feel special. Jesse said, quote, She said I was different than everyone else, and there was a definitive chemistry there. And I had, you know, dated other people before, but I felt something very different with Casey than I did with anyone else. End quote. But as most things that start out so intense, it couldn't last.

By March, Jesse was feeling a bit smothered by Casey. She called him all the time. She texted him all the time. She wanted to know where he was, why he wasn't with her. Jessie said, quote, I was just getting out of college. So she was a little, I guess the best choice of words. I think my dad says it too. She was a little clingy for me at the time. And I just took it as someone who really cared about me. She was very sensitive about everything, end quote. But Casey and Jesse remained friends, and she'd spend a lot of time at his parents' house where he lived. She even went there in June of 2005 to help Jesse's little brother fill out job applications. And at that point, Jesse's father, Richard Grund, he pulled

his son aside, and he was like, yo, your ex-girlfriend is pregnant. She's clearly pregnant. Like, who's the father? Are you the father? And Jesse was confused. He was like, what? What are you talking about? You know, he'd seen that Casey had been putting on pregnant, but she's telling everyone that she's not pregnant. So on June 4th, Casey's uncle Rick, this is Cindy's brother, he was getting married in South Carolina. Both Cindy and Casey arrived a day before the ceremony, at which point Casey's uncle Rick noticed that his 19-year-old niece was clearly pregnant. On a Topics web page, Rick Plezia said, quote, Casey was wearing a tight-fitting top and her belly was visibly extended with her navel protruding a good half inch. I asked Cindy and George when we were alone, do you have some news to tell me about Casey?

And they said, what are you talking about? I said, you know, she's pregnant. They looked at me like I was crazy. They say, no way. I said, she is pregnant. I would bet on it. They said that they had asked her and Casey told them she would have to have had sex to be pregnant. They believed her.

Everyone on my wife's side of the family said, who is the pregnant girl? Even my wife's sons and her daughter asked. It was ridiculous. I told them to take her to a doctor. They finally did in July. She was nearly eight months then. Talk about telling a lie. That is when I saw the first evidence of what a liar Casey was.

End quote. Not only a liar that Casey was. Her parents. Yeah, her parents. But again, it's like, you know, I'm looking at it and I'm wondering to myself, were they just part of the lie or were they just that ignorant where they believe that when they look Casey in the eyes and she said, Mom, Dad, I've never even had sex before. She said she was a virgin. That's what I'm saying. She told them she was a virgin and they believed her.

And I truly believe at this point, I don't think, well, like the graduation thing, right? To separate it. They knew she wasn't graduating. They were part of the lie. This sounds like a situation where really they were just, hey, you guys aren't getting it. Your daughter is a pathological liar and she's lying to you. Let your eyes tell you what's going on here.

She's pregnant. And I think when Rick went to them and said, hey, you know, Casey's pregnant. I truly believe that for some reason they wanted to believe her even though their eyes were telling them something different i don't know if they were in on it at that point that's what i said earlier though it's like willful ignorance it's like you see what's in front of you but you don't want to see it you don't want it to be a part of your reality so you're like it's not it's not a part there's no way she's this girl was eight months pregnant.

That's insane. And what was the end game? What's the end game there for Casey? It's like, okay, I'm not going to tell them. She never has one. Dude, what's her end game when she brings the cops to Universal Studios to bring him to her office? Yeah, that's true.

She knows there's no office. She has no plans. Yeah. I mean, it's like if she was going to have an abortion or something like that. No. She's well past that point. Yeah. You know, so I could see if you didn't want to tell me when you were pregnant early on

in the pregnancy because you were planning on aborting the pregnancy. But eight months pregnant and you're showing up with this tight fitting clothing. With a tight shirt on. Yeah. It's not going to do well for whatever narrative you're trying to spin. Now, listen, I've like I remember there used to be a show on A&E, I think, and it was like they were pregnant and nobody ever knew. But these girls who were hiding their pregnancies, they'd wear baggy clothes, right?

They would do everything they could. They'd stay out of sight. They wouldn't let people see them. They'd have these baggy clothes on. Casey's over here flaunting her stomach and telling everyone she's not pregnant. Well, there's literally a baby kicking inside of her. You know when you're pregnant, you could feel the baby moving, rolling, kicking, heartburn, all sorts of things. Do not tell me that Casey did not know she was pregnant. No, she definitely knew. And it's very odd to me, right? Casey Anthony, who's she's you've

seen pictures of her. She's a very petite girl. She's short. She's very slender. She could have been growing this baby inside of her for over half a year. and no one who lived with her in her house noticed. Her mother was a nurse, for God's sake. Her mother was a nurse. Yeah, this is not normal. I've definitely seen situations where parents will enable their child by covering up their lies or making justifications for things that they did that we all know are wrong. This is some next level stuff. This is it's uh when we when we put it in context of who we're talking about here why we're talking about him it does it is par for the course though i think they knew you think they knew deep down she was pregnant but they wanted to believe she wasn't maybe i think i think they knew deep down and then they asked her and she said no and they

were like all right good enough for us yeah i agree i i'm with you there i'm with you there but i don't think when rick asked and like, oh, we still haven't told anybody yet. And we're just, you know, we're still lying about it. They looked at him like he was crazy. Yeah, I think either they're good liars, but that's an odd situation. They're delusional, man. Who's the pregnant girl?

Everyone's asking. Yeah, everyone is asking, who's the pregnant girl? Yeah. And then even, you know, Jesse's father noticed and Jesse was like, she's just retaining water. Like, are you stupid, Jesse? Yeah. Only in her belly. What's happening?

Yeah. So apparently Casey had this like this effect on people where she could just gaslight the shit out of them and they'd become like her willing, willfully ignorant, obedient servants. This happens a lot with her. Well, there is like a courtesy there too, right? Where you don't want to be that person that like says, oh, congratulations or assume someone's pregnant and come to find out they're not because that's an insult, right? It's like they might've put on a few pounds.

My dad does that to people all the time. It's so awkward. Hey, congratulations. He does. Once he even touched someone's belly and I had to explain to him because he's you know he's he's a foreigner he wasn't born here i'm like listen in america you don't do that shit man you don't do it and he's like i'm just you know you can't touch people's

bellies whether they're he's like i thought she was pregnant it doesn't even matter man that's hilarious my dad so yeah i think that uh i think her parents and even her brother lee noticed because he mentioned one time he saw Casey like leaving the bathroom after her shower and he saw that she looked pregnant. And then he asked his parents and they were like, no, Casey's not pregnant. She's having female problems. Like Cindy says something about like uterine fibroids run in the family. And, you know, it's true when you have, I forget what it's called, but it's something that women have and you can get a very distended abdomen. But I personally think it looks different

than like an eight month pregnant stomach. Well, what do I know? In fact, Lee would be the last person in the family to know, to find out that his sister was actually pregnant because she did tell her parents and then they didn't tell him right away. And he was like really upset about that. He kind of held on to that for a while. So when we pick up next time, we are going to continue with this. We're going to talk about how Casey's parents reacted when they found out she was pregnant. And I'm just going to say it right now, OK, because I'm not going to be able to hide this or disguise my contempt for for the entire Anthony family. Maybe Lee, not so much. I'm undecided on him. But Cindy and George, they screwed they screwed Casey up. Now, that doesn't mean that she is not responsible for what she did, because lots of kids get screwed up by their parents and they don't go on to be, you know, dirtbags like she became, but they really screwed her up. And when Kaylee is born,

they continue to do it. Now, there are times in this case, in this story, where I will identify with Casey. I understand I was a young mother. I had my daughter when I was 17, and I know how it feels when people look at you like you're a kid having a kid. So you can't be, you know, you can't be responsible. And you were going to kind of just like take away the mothering role from you. Like the adults in your life will try to do that sometimes. But Cindy and George took it to a whole nother level. It gets real screwed up.

And I understand why Casey may have wanted to get away from them. I'll just leave it at that. No, it's all fascinating stuff. And I think that's why we do this the way we do it. As far as our format, we just spent close to an hour and a half to my real little less than that talking about Casey and her family. And we haven't even mentioned we're not even up to the birth of Kaylee yet. And I really do think that's the difference when you want to understand a story in its entirety, when you're going to come to a conclusion, whatever your conclusion is, after you listen to this whole series or watch this whole series, when you decide to make an opinion on, do you think Casey's guilty or not? Right. Do you think she did it? You're going to have the

entire story or most of it as much as we know. Yeah. And that's why some of this might seem a little like, well, why are we talking about this? It's foundational. It's context. Yeah. To understand who a person really is, you got to go back as far as you can before the cameras and the news organizations got involved before most of the people in the media sector

decided to start covering the story. They didn't go far. They didn't go this far back. And it's kind of unfortunate that people are making those opinions off a very limited amount of information. You want to make an opinion on something, get as much information as you can about the case, about the person that you're making these opinions about, and then go from there. And I think that's what we're doing. And I can tell you again, this is why I love your storytelling, Stephanie, is because these are things that, you know, I'm tooting our own horn here, I guess, but it's like people aren't going this deep. You're known to do this, but this is all stuff that may seem to some people irrelevant. Like, oh, I just want to hear about the case.

This is completely relevant when you're trying to decide whether or not this woman is responsible for her daughter's death. Yeah. You can't just go with the year leading up to it. You got to go back to when she was a child and how she viewed family and how she viewed parents and how they treated their children. Because that will give you some insight into how she may treat her own children down the road so you know it's so important not that i need to tell you this but very good job very good job and a lot of compelling information as far as the psychology behind casey and the family dynamic

with her family really interesting stuff yeah and i don't think it's interesting a lot tonight that's interesting it's a i did i think That's interesting. It's it. I did. I think that obviously everyone knows. I mean, if anybody's been following me for a while, I crack Casey Anthony jokes all the time because I truly do not like her. And I truly do believe that she did this and she knows what happened because she she says she doesn't know what happened. But I think she does. And but that's not going to hold me back from feeling compassion for somebody and what they went through in their early lives before she was a monster. Nothing's going to stop or change the fact that now she's a monster to me. But before that,

she was a little girl. She was a kid, man. She was a blank canvas that the people around her decided to just shit all over, essentially. And I see this all the time with kids. It's people ask, how do we change the world? How do we make the world better? Raise your kids good. Treat them with kindness. Treat them with love.

Show them how to treat others with kindness and love. Teach them how to live a moral life. Don't lie. Don't cheat. Don't steal. You know, it's super simple on paper, but it is complicated as a parent to do all the things. And you never know if you're doing the right thing.

But what you don't do is this shit that Cindy and George did, where they pretty much taught her how to lie. Like it was a second language to her from the moment she was born. They taught her to lie, evade, conceal, and just completely escape all repercussions. And that's not her fault. But at some point she became an adult and she had the decision. She had the decision to make it was hers. And I think she made the wrong one. But yeah, I think it's relevant and it's important. And history is important because it will repeat itself. Right. And I do think people can learn from this as well. Like all of our, all of the people that are watching this or listening to it, you know, we always try to have something in there

that we can, can apply to our own lives. And maybe it's just warning signs, things you should look for. We're not suggesting that anybody out there is doing some of the things that Casey's parents were doing, but you may see people that are doing stuff like that. And maybe it's someone you're close with. Maybe hearing these types of stories is what puts you over the edge and has you confront them on it. Or set healthy boundaries, right? Yeah. But maybe, listen, if it's your sister, your brother, who's kind of conducting themselves similarly to George or Cindy, maybe hearing this story and realizing that it didn't just start off this bad. It got to that point over time.

Maybe this is the point where you say to them, not using this as reference, but just say, hey, listen, is this really the right thing to do? Are you sure you want to go down this road? That's not going to do anything, man. You cut them off. I don't care if they're blood or what. Cut them off. You don't call them out?

You can try to call them out, but most likely if they've been doing this, they're narcissistic assholes that don't care and don't think they're doing anything wrong. So they're not going to change. You're going to be wasting your breath. Cut them off. It's okay. It doesn't matter who it is. You're allowed to set healthy boundaries for yourself. You're allowed to live a peaceful life without people trying to gaslight you every five seconds. And yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of people listening and watching who recognize qualities from Cindy and George Anthony in their own parents. And that might trigger something in them because a lot of these kids who come from homes like this end up thinking it's their fault, right? Like, oh, it's my fault that I am this way. There's something wrong with me and I have to fix it. And they don't go deeper or look back and see where it came from and where it originated. And if you can do that, then you can start solving it and then you can start healing, but not until you identify the source. All set? Yeah. All right, guys, we will see you next week. Thank you so much for being here. Remember to follow us on social media, Instagram and Twitter at Crime Weekly Podcast.

One day, we're a year in. One day you're going to say that and you're going to say it with conviction and confidence. And you're not going to be saying it as a question. I didn't even remember what time we were supposed to record tonight, man. We've been recording the same time for a year. I know. I was laughing. You're like, 8.30. I'm like, yes, Stephanie.

8.30. Before I forget, and I keep forgetting, the Keep You Safe kits, anybody who's been hitting me up, they will be done. I'm still waiting on one more item from the kit. For those of you who have no clue what I'm talking about, it's from a live. You probably have to go back and watch that, but I will have an announcement on social when they come in. I'm only going to have a hundred of the kits, but if it's something you've been messaging me about and I'm not responding to you, just understand it's because I don't have anything. But by the time this episode goes out, I should have already posted it or we'll be posting it within a day or so.

Awesome. Yeah. A lot of people were asking in the live we did this past Saturday. Yeah. And my DMs, I'm not even responding at this point because it's the same thing over and over. I'll post it. There's only a hundred, so I'm sure they'll go quick, but I will do more.

But for everybody who thinks that I'm just ignoring you, I'm not. I'll post it as soon as I have it. Beautiful. You heard that here. Keep you safe, kids. As soon as they're ready, you will be the first to know. And I'll try to get the first hundred to you before Christmas. No promises.

No promises. No promises. I thought you were going to say no promises. I'll try to get the first ones to you before Christmas. No promises. Promises. New Year's definitely. It's like just a couple days after i need that little buffer definitely by valentine's day

that i can guarantee you promises we'll see you guys next week thank you so much for being here keep you safe stay safe bye i don't know what's her our ending? Later. Bye. Awkward. Bye.