Crime Weekly - S1 Ep57: Caylee Anthony: "I'm going to see Zanny." (Part 3)

Episode Date: December 24, 2021

Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Agatha Christie once said that a mothers love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity, it dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path. Most parents feel that their main job is to protect their children from the terrors of the world, and they take this job very seriously, so when we hear of a child that seemingly was tossed to the side and forgotten, we have a very negative and visceral reaction. After all, children are the future, and they deserve a fighting chance. Two year old Caylee Marie Anthony had this chance stolen from her, she had her life stolen from her, and to this day we still don’t understand why. Caylee disappeared on June 16th, 2008, and it would take six months for the world to find out what had happened to her. Her skeletal remains were found inside a laundry bag, discarded in a wooded area. There was evidence that little Caylee’s mouth had been duct taped at the time of her death, and all eyes were on her young mother, Casey Anthony, who had failed to report the toddler missing for over a month, and during this time, Casey was seen at nightclubs and bars, having the time of her life.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today is part three of the Kaylee Anthony series. And I know before this, we recorded a little message for our YouTube viewers, but do you have anything to say before we dive right in? Yeah, all I would say is if you're listening to this, it's Christmas Eve. So Merry Christmas to everyone who celebrates Christmas.

If you're watching on YouTube, it's a few days after Christmas. So I hope you got what you were looking for for us. If you're watching on YouTube, we had this little thing before this segment. All we'll say is regardless of what's going on, we're happy, we're healthy, and that's all you can ask for. So very appreciative of this year, what it's brought for us, and looking forward to the future. And is that a Dunkin' Donuts shirt you're wearing?

No, just jingle. Yeah, it says jingle, jingle, jingle, but it's definitely Dunkin' Donuts colors, right? Yeah, I mean, it's also Christmas colors. Oh, I see the green at the back. It's still Dunkin' Donuts colors. It looks like a Dunkin' Donuts Christmas cup. Are you sure it's not affiliated? I mean, I have Dunk in here, but no, there's no relation.

It kind of even looks like the same font, man. Yeah, it's just a Christmas. I think it's a Cole special. He's feeling the Christmas spirit and the coffee spirit. I'm riding it because next week it's got to come down and it's unfortunate. I know it feels like it went really fast. I was decorating for Christmas and I still have more to decorate, but. But you might want to get on that.

What's the point now? You know what I mean? I kept pushing off. I was like, I have another day. Like I'll do it next weekend. I'll do it next weekend. No, it hasn't happened. But what are you going to do?

I have to say that even at 37 years old, taking down direct decorations after Christmas, like even inside the house, outside the house is the most depressing time of year. So depressing. Oh, my gosh. Because you know how long you have until you get to do it again. It's the worst. I usually let it ride for a couple weeks. At least a week or two, right?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, me too. Mid-January. Yeah. Like I'm like, oh, you got to wait till after New Year's. Then after New Year's, I'm like, we'll give it one more week. But yeah, usually by mid-Jan, it's got to come down. My tree is like a skeleton by the time I take it down.

It's like all the leaves. It's just bark. I always wait till like the neighbors start doing it. But once I'm like the only house left and I'm like, okay, I get it. It's got to come down. I want to be the only house left. I want everybody to judge me for it. Shocker.

All right. All right. We all live on our own estate too. We're like by ourselves and nobody's around. Is that true? You talk about you. We don't all live on our own estate too we're like by ourselves and nobody's around is that true you talk about you we don't all live on our own estate i'm joking i'm being sarcastic i'm just far off the road man but but in but in winter all the trees are bare so everyone on the street can see me and they're all driving by people say yeah i also have a christmas tree upstairs and downstairs so yeah you're right a little. A little bougie, isn't it? I love Christmas,

man. What do you want from me? I love Christmas as well. So get two Christmas trees. Maybe. I have like little Christmas trees. I mean, look at that tree. I mean, come on now. Everyone's jealous of that right there. So beautiful. I actually really like your Christmas tree. So Stephanie approved. Definitely an upgrade from the little wooden tree. Definitely is. All right. Let's dive in. Let's dive in. Let's dive in. It's like this case is just so disturbing. You know, sometimes I want to have a little buffer before jumping into that dark place.

But let's do it anyways. All right. So we did talk briefly at the end of last week's episode that going into June of 2008, Casey Anthony was recapturing her lost youth. She was spending a lot of time out with friends. She was going to themed parties, puking into toilets, and all that good stuff. But she was also spinning this narrative for her friend, Amy Huizenga. And she actually told this story to a lot of different people,

that basically Casey and Amy were going to live together. And the place that they were going to occupy was the home of Casey's parents, George and Cindy Anthony. So Amy would later tell police that she and Casey were very close and Casey constantly complained about her parents, especially her mother, Cindy. Amy said that Casey's relationship with Cindy was strained and hard. And Amy said, quote, I remember she told me her mom had told her that she was an unfit mother. She was extremely upset about that. End quote. Amy also said that Casey was getting annoyed because she was having to constantly cancel plans with her friends because Cindy would tell Casey that she couldn't watch Kaylee. And this seemed to be happening more frequently during the spring of 2008, causing

Casey's frustration to increase. And this is important because June of 2008 is when Casey's daughter Kaylee goes missing. Now, Casey had told Amy that George and Cindy were leaving the house, like they were moving out and they were going to sign the house over to Casey. And then Casey and Amy were going to move into the house. And apparently this was happening really soon. Casey had Amy under the impression that they were moving in to the Anthony home together in June. And Amy was so convinced that it was happening, she actually put in a change of address with the post office. And this was very confusing to the Anthony's when Amy's mail started showing up in their mailbox. But she legitimately thought that the Anthony's were moving out and they were just going to sign the house over to Casey. And then Casey and Amy were going to live there together.

Nice parents. Yeah. I mean, it just doesn't doesn't make any sense. Right. Why do I have a feeling this is not going to end up working out well for Amy? It doesn't end up working out well for anyone who knows Casey. I feel terrible for all her friends because all she does is lie to them and steal from them. Casey also has a job as a manager at Sports Authority for Amy as well.

And at one of Universal Studios as an event coordinator. Yep, yep. So on June 3rd, Casey texted Amy that she was taking her mother, Cindy, out to dinner and she'd found a place where they could stock up on essentials for their new home for cheap. It was this dollar store across from the place where she was apparently having dinner with Cindy. And the next day, Casey wrote on Amy's Facebook wall, quote, Oh, the times we will have. I can't wait for us to become roomies in another week. So this was this was like June 4th. And she says we're going to be roomies in another week.

She thought that that they were going to be moving into this house within a week. And then Casey goes on to say, seriously, by the end of the week, it will be just us girls. I can't believe it. End quote. Now, I've always been confused about this because when Casey says it'll be just us girls, it's unclear whether she's including her daughter Kaylee in that group. Like, did she just plan to live with Amy in this house? Was Kaylee going to go with George and Cindy? Was Casey planning to kill her parents to get their house? Like, what is the plan here?

Because it turns out Cindy and George are never considering leaving their house. Of course not. I think at this point they have a second mortgage out on the house because of all their debt and things. They're definitely not going to move out. There was never a plan for them to leave the house. So what was Casey's endgame? Of all the lies she tells, this one I could never really figure out. So wait, are you trying to tell me that Casey was lying? Yeah, but it's a lie that has no, I don't understand the root of it. I don't understand like why, why the lie? Is it a lie just to lie? Because that's scary, man. I've experienced some pretty good liars in my life. And what I found is that usually part of the reason they're so good at lying is a couple of things.

One, they truly believe it. They convince themselves of it. But two, they derive that lie from something that has some truth to it. Right. So it may have been something where Cindy and George said, Hey, down the road, you know, 20 years from now, whatever, we're in a position where we're going to move, upgrade or whatever, or downgrade. Maybe we'll turn the house over to you and Kaylee. And Casey got really excited about it. It starts embellishing the story, starts talking to her friends about it. And before you know it, she's in this lie that instead of just backing out of it, she doubles down. And I'm sure there was a conversation that maybe happened, but it was probably nothing like what Casey is relaying to Amy. That's my hunch. That's a good point. I never, ever have considered that because I do view her with this person that just has

malicious intent. So I'm like, when she's lying, it has to be to gain something or it has to be for some greater, more nefarious plan. But it could be just what you said. She's already got in over her head. And then she was like, I have to die in this hell now. What else am I going to do? Have you ever met that person?

I think we all have. I think a lot of people out there, you know, listening, watching right now, you have this person in your life that has a good thing going, right? They might have a new job or whatever, but instead of just saying what they actually, you know, are doing, they always have to embellish. They, you know, instead of just getting the new job, they're the new manager or whatever. It's just like, it's never enough. And they will go to great lengths to cover up that lie because now either A, they're embarrassed or B, there's a deeper rooted issue there. But obviously, Casey is on a different level than a lot of people. I don't think a lot of people do what she has been accused of doing and what was, let's be honest, what was substantiated in court that she was doing. So, yeah, I think she's someone that we may be familiar with in our own lives, just the top end of that spectrum as far as the version of a pathological liar that she is.

Yeah, I've known people who exaggerate and stuff, but I could never say I knew someone like Casey because after one or two of these lies, I would have been done. And it just feels like her friends kind of knew she lied about everything and they were like, hmm, that's just Casey. I've definitely known people like this, my personal life. I'll say that much. How do you deal with them? They're no longer in my life. Right, yeah.

That's it. They're gone. Haven't talked to them in years. And that's healthy. That's how you deal with that person. Yeah, it. They're gone. Haven't talked to him in years. And that's how you deal with that person. Yeah, that's a toxic dynamic. So it's healthy to just be like, I can't deal with this person. Yeah, they no longer are around. Well, that night that she wrote this on Amy's wall, June 4th, Casey and a bunch of her friends went to a nightclub called Voyage for the birthday of Troy Brown. So Troy was good friends with Ricardo Morales. And

if you remember, Ricardo was the man that Casey had just thrown over for her new boyfriend, Tony Lazaro. So everyone was kind of shocked when Casey showed up with Tony, knowing that Ricardo was going to be there. There was obviously some tension during the night, which is probably exactly what she wanted, but no one got punched in the face, which I personally would view as a success, you know, because the way people get played by Casey, the way she plays with their emotions, she probably would have loved if Tony and Ricardo had just like had a fist fight over her. It probably would have been the shining moment of her life. Tony Lazaro said that Casey did not spend that night at his apartment because her mother wouldn't let her.

The next night, the group went out again for Troy's actual birthday. They went to TGI Fridays for dinner, and then they went to a strip club called Dancer's Royale. But Casey did not attend on this evening. On June 5th, Casey's grandmother, Shirley Plezia, wrote an email to her sister, Mary. And in this email, Shirley mentioned speaking to her sister, Mary. And in this email, Shirley mentioned speaking to her daughter, Cindy, because it was Cindy's 50th birthday. And she said that Cindy had sounded depressed on the phone. Shirley said in this email, quote, Cindy is 50. Maybe that's part of the depression. So much responsibility getting to be too much for her. I think she had to

use her retirement funds to pay bills. Now weekly expenses are so much. She can't add to her 401k, so the company doesn't give you anything if you don't contribute. George's folly before took a lot. Casey spends more than she makes and hence doesn't contribute, but makes more for Cindy to pay, end quote. You also have to understand that Casey was not just lying to her parents about working. She was lying to everyone about working, and she would use the I have to work excuse anytime she didn't want to deal with conflict or she wanted to get out of something. So on June 6th, Casey had plans with her friend Amy and some other friends, including Ricardo, but she texted Amy at 9.46 p.m. that night saying she had made a huge mistake

of going back into work to help to set up for an event. And she'd been roped into staying because she's so important and just indispensable. You know, Casey walks in the building and everyone's like, oh, no, make sure Casey doesn't leave or nothing will get done. Yeah. Thank God for her. Right. Thank God for Casey. He said no one ever. So Casey told Amy, like, listen, I don't know when I'm going to be getting out, but I'm already really tired. And this is code if you don't know for I'm not meeting you out tonight. You know what I mean? Because Amy's like, well, when are you going to be out? Like, when are you going to be here? And Casey's like, I don't know. And I'm already feeling really tired. Amy should just

know at that point Casey is not going to show up. Now, in a separate message, Casey texted Ricardo, her ex-boyfriend, who she was supposed to have been meeting for dinner that night, to tell him that she had to stay at work. But Casey was not working and she didn't stay home. Instead, she went with her new boyfriend, Tony, to help him run a promotional event at a Fusion nightclub. Now, there happened to be a photographer at the club that evening, and he snapped some pictures of Casey. And obviously, these go on social media. And then Casey takes the pictures from social media, and she puts them on her own social media. And then what happens? Her friends, Ricardo and Amy, they see the pictures on Casey's social media, and they confronted her about lying

to them. And so she did the only thing that makes sense, right? She came clean. She was like, I lied to you. I'm so sorry. No, I'm lying. I'm lying about that. I pulled a Casey. She didn't tell the truth or come clean. She lied some more. Casey told her friends that her boss at Universal Studios had sent her to this nightclub on a work mission because his daughter was there partying at Fusion that night and he wanted Casey to check on her and make sure she was okay. And Casey claimed that as soon as she did this, she returned to work. And apparently her friends, Amy and Ricardo, believed her.

They were like, that makes sense. That checks out. Yeah, that sounds like a completely legitimate work assignment that your boss at Universal Studios would give you as his super important event coordinator they're like yeah okay Casey thanks for being so honest yeah so she's uh also a private investigator now she's she's something a security guard private security I don't know I gotta tell you you know listen Ricardo I don't know what I don't know what story she fed you but would take two seconds two seconds, if you didn't already know, to know that Tony works there. And you're already aware of Tony.

Yeah. So one plus one, buddy. One plus one. Well, people see what they want, don't they? That is true. It is true. And I mean, we're not talking about criminality there. We're talking just about common sense.

I do think people sometimes want to believe something because they love them or whatever, and they turned a blind eye to things. So yeah, that's fair. But outside looking in, seems pretty obvious what's happening here. So listen, I'm just going to say, I don't know what it was about Casey, but she did have a lot of people kind of sprung on her. And I mean, that's guys and girls included. Men and women just seem to want to believe what she said. And I will say that we're not going to get too deep into this in this series, but Casey was dating a police officer in Florida. His name was Anthony Rusciano, if I remember correctly. And she was, I guess, dating him for a while. And, you know, it turned out he he got brought in and he was, I think, fired when it when they found out that he was seeing her because he was spending time with her while Kaylee's missing, which is super odd, right? Yeah.

And he said she was really good in bed. He said she was good in bed. And there's texts that are between them. And he's texting her and like, are you coming over? Are you coming over? So, I mean, that could have been why Ricardo was like, okay, blind eye. Let's just ignore this blatant lie. Yeah. I mean, listen, who knows what was inside his head? I mean, definitely possible. I've seen all of those things. I've seen definitely guys who are with someone because they're looking at it like, hey, we're both getting something out of it.

And maybe Ricardo's doing the same thing behind her back, right? And you never know. So, it's one of those. That could be the situation or it could be that although Casey was a liar, she was manipulative, charismatic and could really sell a story. And she was a pretty girl, you know, and I'm sure, you know, she come in and she had a game plan for how to get what she wanted, whether it was, you know, specifically with men. And it does seem like in a lot of cases, she did get what she wanted. So I'm sure there was a lot of factors in that. And

this isn't the first person we've ever spoken about where they used their ability to speak, their looks to get what they want. Who else have we talked about like that? Well, I mean, I would say, honestly, even Scott Peterson, although a little, I mean, good looking guy, charismatic, knows what to say. I mean, there's a lot of people out there like that. Not even at this level. There are people probably in your own life as you're watching that, listen to this, that you work with or are friends with who, you know, maybe not for nefarious reasons, but have an ability to get what they're after, whether it's at a restaurant or at a, you know, a place where you're buying, you know buying a car or something where you can use your assets, whatever they are, verbal or physical, to get ahead.

Nothing wrong with that if you're doing it for the right reasons, I guess. I don't know. It's like these very charming people, they can use their powers for good or evil. Well, she used them for evil. So later that night, poor Amy, who is allegedly at this point, Casey's best friend. Okay. Casey said Amy was her best friend at this time. Poor Amy, she gets into a car accident. She totals her vehicle. And the next day Casey posted on Amy's Facebook, you know, I hope you're okay. Like, uh, hope everything's all right. Sorry. I wasn't there, et cetera, et cetera. So later that night, Amy's

laying on the couch at Ricardo's apartment. She's staying the night and she said everyone was making fun of her because she had injured her nose during the accident. And that's why she remembered this specific night, because at around 11 p.m., Casey showed up with Kaylee and they both spent the night at Ricardo's. Now, this is Ricardo, Casey's ex-boyfriend. Casey's in a relationship with Anthony Lazaro, and she's still spending the night at Ricardo's apartment with her daughter. So when she starts texting Amy and she texted her before and she's going to text her again, like, I don't understand what he wants from me. Like, he's still so hung up on me and he wants to be with me. It's like you keep going to his apartment and spending the night. So I wonder why he thinks that there's still a chance.

Yeah. Again, none of this is surprising. No, with three parts parts in here none of this is surprising me at this point i feel like everyone has a pretty good grasp on the type of person that casey is and this appears to be all kind of par for the course it's unfortunate that kaylee's kind of yeah being dragged into it as well you know she's staying with you know at random guys homes and stuff like that i know she probably knows Ricardo, but still, it's not how it should be done. Yeah, because Ricardo said that when he and Casey were dating regularly, she would often bring Kaylee over and they would both spend the night there. I mean, I guess on this specific night, I'm not sure where they slept, but sometimes they

would sleep on the couch. Sometimes they would sleep in bed with him. I don't know. It's odd to me. But Ricardo remembered that Casey and Kaylee both left the next morning. And apparently they both went back home because Ricardo and Amy spoke to Casey later that night. Before we continue, let's take a quick break. Okay, so that brings us up to Monday, June 9th, 2008, just about a week before Kaylee goes missing. And we've briefly spoken about Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, right? This was a woman who Casey claimed was the nanny for her ex-boyfriend Jeff Hopkins' son. And Casey had been telling her friends that this woman had also been babysitting Kaylee. And on this day, Monday, June 9th, she would later tell the police

she allegedly brought Kaylee to Zenaida's home located at the Sawgrass Apartments on Conway Road. And then Casey went to work, but she didn't go to work, right? Because she doesn't have a job. Casey was actually with her boyfriend, Tony Lazzaro, that day. She didn't drop Kaylee off anywhere. She and Kaylee picked Tony up from school and they gave him a ride to the mechanic shop where his truck was getting worked on. After that, all three went to Subway for lunch where Casey purchased subs for herself, Tony, and one for Kaylee off the kids menu. Later, Casey texted her friend Amy and said she was staying at the boys' place again, and that's referring to Ricardo's apartment. And she also let Amy know that Kaylee had used the big girl potty for the

first time that day. She said she was a proud mama. Now, I'm going through all of this because I'm not defending Casey Anthony, but there are signs as we go through this last week before Kaylee goes missing and dies. It looks like Casey is spending a lot of time with Kaylee, right? She's with her almost every day. She's going with her when she goes to see Tony. It doesn't seem like she's trying to sort of push Kaylee off on anyone. And she's texting her friends who are childless, talking about Kaylee using the big girl potty. This is something that as a young mother, I probably wouldn't have said to my friends who didn't have kids. Because when you're 17 and you have a baby, most of your friends don't have kids and they don't care about that stuff.

They don't care about it. They don't want to hear it. And they feel weird. So it does seem like she is invested in Kaylee's life. And she's not being a terrible mother or a negligent mother at this point right before Kaylee goes missing. And this is very confusing to me. Yeah, I think it's all great points. And as we're going through this and we're trying to break it down and dissect it, the big question we're going to have is we know that Kaylee is no longer with us. That's not up for debate. She's not missing any longer.

We know that she's deceased. And we know a lot of the factors that you're going to cover as far as her whereabouts before her disappearance so i think a big question that i have posed in my head and i said it i think in part one or part two where it's like it's not a matter of you know what happened as far as like we know she's no longer here but it's like how did it happen was it was it malicious in nature was it? Or was it just pure negligence? Or who was it? Who was it, too? That's still on the table, right? That is on the table. I think, absolutely. I agree with you. It's still on the table. But I do think a lot of people out there are past the hoop. I think a lot of people, maybe that'll change for me, or maybe that'll change for you as we're going. But I think a lot of people believe

she did it. But it's a matter of of did she do it accidentally or was it intentional? Like did she kill Kaylee or was she not paying attention and Kaylee was injured and died from her injuries? So I want to confess something. Okay. Confess. See, I'm good. I didn't even have to try to get you to confess. No, not even. It just comes natural to you. Just snapped and boom. I confess. It's those boy-like appearances you got. You're so unthreatening. But listen, so, you know, there was three main books written on this that I've read. Keith Abloh's book, and I forget his name, but The Prosecutor.

I forget his name and it's bothering me because it's right there in my brain. And then obviously Jose Baez's book. And I read Jose Baez's book years ago. And I hate the man. Okay. Everyone knows I hate Jose Baez. I still do to this day. I have no problem. You voiced that a couple of times. Jose, come here right now into my recording booth and I will say this to your face in the streets, wherever. I cannot stand you. I think you're a terrible, greasy person. However, rereading his book now, you know, in preparation for this. And I may have just skimmed it before because I hated him so much and I'm reading it in depth now. And he raises some evidence, some indisputable facts that have me going like, oh, this might this there might be something to this. So I definitely also want to explore what Casey claims happened, which is the fact that

Kaylee drowned in the pool and George Anthony covered it up, because I will say, and it's up to you and the viewers to kind of go down this path with me and say whether you think it's completely impossible or there's definitely some possibility that it happened. but there's some stuff that's that's that he wrote and that is facts and evidence that make it seem like it that that theory might be a little possible and it's bothering me because i would i've been so certain about this for so long and now i wonder well yeah and that's that's kind of what i'm saying right like you know what i'm saying is did she intentionally kill kaylee because she no longer wanted to take care of her? Right.

And she was getting her out of her life. And she just wanted to be a party girl. Yeah. Right. And she intentionally carried this act out. Or, and I guess you can make the argument, well, is it negligent? Because you have had good parents lose their child due to an accidental drowning. Right.

So, but in this case, and putting in context of who Casey is, I would say that this was avoidable. And if the pool scenario is true, which I also still think it's very possible, did it happen because it was an actual accident? Or did it happen because Casey was preoccupied doing something else when she should have been watching her child. And because of her actions and filling in George later, like I really screwed up here. You know, that still counts as a problem where her negligence is the reason why Kaylee's dead. So that's kind of the school I'm in where I think either theory and even according to Jose Baez, it revolves around Casey. There's really no theory out there that Kaylee was kidnapped by an unknown party. Not one. Yeah, not one that I think is plausible.

That's where we're at right now. It's like accident or intentional, you know? And then if we agree it's an accident, was it negligence or was it an honest mistake? And then if we agree it's an accident, why would you toss this body of this little child that you all claim to love into the freaking woods instead of calling the police? Like, that's another question we have to ask. Which what? Which leans towards what then? That it wasn't accidental. Well, that it could be accidental, but when they started hearing how it went down when George and Cindy come over or whatever, they're like, you screwed up here. Yeah. But to me, that's not accidental. Like if you're just neglecting your child and not

paying attention to her, like you should expect something bad to happen. She was too. Right. And that's what I'm saying where where George, being a former police officer, might have said, listen, you're in trouble here. You got problems. And George, being a former police officer, was like, let's cover up this crime. That would be that would answer your question, though, right? Like, why wouldn't you just tell the police like like a lot of parents, unfortunately, have lost the child due to a pool drowning an accidental pool drowning it's terrible absolute nightmare but usually they call police or they call the ambulance to try to resuscitate the child you know exactly there's there's something that happens immediately after and none of that happened so the question is if that's so

you're saying maybe like kaylee drowned in the pool and Casey either didn't even realize it until George or Cindy got home or she did realize it did nothing. And by the time they got home, hours had passed and they were like, this looks bad. You can't just be like letting your kid die and then not call the police and not do anything. And so now at this point we have to go into damage control. Exactly. Both scenarios really bad. But to the first one you said, which is running through my mind as a possibility, like did George and Cindy come over and find Kaylee in the pool? And Casey had no idea because she was preoccupied doing something else. Right. Bad, really bad. So we'll get there. I know we're getting ahead right now, but that's fine. But they had just opened their pool. And I will say, though, when you talk about negligence,

Casey Anthony should have been charged with child negligence, period. Like, you weren't charged with murder. Okay. But the fact is, your daughter was missing, and for 30 days, you did nothing. So that's negligence right there. That should have been a slam dunk. There shouldn't even be a question. That woman should have served some prison time, and i don't understand why she didn't i haven't gone

ahead but i'm and you might clarify this right now but she was charged with what she was charged with murder so that's so right there so there's the can't you add different charges in like why can't you be charged with both i always get caught up on this i think they when you charge so like when you're as a prosecutor going in and saying, we know she murdered her daughter. However, if you don't believe that we're going to hit her with these, you know, manslaughter charges or whatever, we're going to hit, you know, whatever the child endangerment, you're basically hedging your bets. And that hurts your case because how confident are you really, if you're doing that?

So usually I think there's opportunities. Any of the lawyers listening to this or watching this, please feel free to correct me, chime in. My understanding is you can't like charge multiple charges for the same crime and you can't like basically hedge your bets where you have different levels of it. I could be wrong. I do know at some point you can consider lesser charges like the vert, like I know, what did we just have? It was Kyle Rittenhouse, where there was an opportunity for the prosecution to allow the jury to consider lesser charges, and they didn't. I definitely am not an expert on this, and I would personally love to hear it as well.

But there is a reasoning behind why you won't see someone charged with first degree murder and vehicular manslaughter in a case where they hit someone with their car. OK, so usually one or the other. So it says on October 14th, 2008, Casey Anthony was indicted by a grand jury on charges of first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and four counts of providing false information to police. So she had all those charges. She pled not guilty to all those charges. And how a jury did not find her guilty of aggravated child abuse. Yeah. I'm not sure.

I can't wait till we get to that part. Yeah. I can't wait till we get to that part to break down the legal aspect of it, because I think a lot of people feel the same way you do. I know I do. So it'll be, it's going to, that's going to be a great episode to dive into as far as the legality behind it. And ultimately how, cause I'm assuming jury members have spoken about it since like how they came to that conclusion and why, what was the reason behind it? I'm fascinated by that. I can't, I'm, I'm holding off going there now as far as the research, but I can't wait to break that down. And I don't know if we'll agree with it, but have a better understanding of it at least.

Yeah, I would love to know. I would love to have a better understanding of that because I think she did. And it's like so far away now. I can't remember. And I haven't gotten to that part yet in this new research. But I think she did get charged with like providing false information to the police. But if you're going to be charged with that, why not? It was like obstruction, right? She got hit with like providing false information to the police but if you're gonna be charged with that why not it was like obstruction right she got hit with like one counter like it was nothing yeah because she sent them on like a wild goose chase though and like

she should have had to pay back all that money for that investigation like i don't know what happened but she she got time served for that right yes and like some some light from heaven must have been shining on her that day for maybe accidentally like the light from heaven was trying to find someone else and it accidentally ended up on Casey. And then this whole debacle happens because there was way. I mean, she lied to the police and everybody for a month. Yeah, no, I agree. It's going to be, you know, again, the only reason we're bringing it up now, it's not like we're going off the beaten path here. It's a frame of mind.

It's how you're viewing this case. It's as you're listening to Stephanie break this down, how you should. It's not just listening to listen. You're framing it as in the questions you have. How does this information align with whatever scenarios you're considering? Because it will start to paint a picture for you naturally. And it's almost like a detective when you go into it, like, you know, detective perspective, you don't want to come up with a theory and then find the evidence that supports your theory and exclude things that don't. What you want to do is let

all the evidence tell you a story. And sometimes it may not be a straight A to B path. It may take you down some different, uh, some different roads that you have to explore that ultimately lead to a dead end. Most times I feel like most times. Yeah, it does. And, and I've said it before too, where you might have four or five elements that you need to get you to where you think it is, and you might get the four elements. And then on the fifth one, the piece of the puzzle doesn't match and it's so disheartening. But if you're doing your job, you don't just discredit that. And you and you have to consider it and you go back and you try again until you find the combination that unlocks the lock. And sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't. But that's kind of what we're doing here where we all have our theories. We're listening to the known facts of the case and we'll see how this information aligns with what a lot of people think. Does it make sense?

Does it not? We'll find out. Exactly. And I think that is something to keep in mind. And as I'm going through this and I'm researching and reading through everything again, keep in mind, this is evidence, what I'm saying, all of this, the jury heard. So when you're hearing it and it's going through this timeline, the jury heard all of this. They saw, you know, text messages and pictures. They saw everything in front of them. And to know that at the end of all that, this was the decision they made. The result. It's very hard to understand that because we're going through all of this evidence.

And you're like, I kind of feel like I don't even need to know anymore. Right. You even said you were like, we know who Casey is by now. Right. You know, and and the jury did, too. So and somebody said in our comment section today on part one's video, it's hard to even contemplate or even consider that Casey might be telling the truth about something because she's lied about everything. Well, she's so unlikable.

No, she's very likable. Right. In real life. When you when you don't have all of this laid out in front of you. Right. But everyone now, a lot of people know this and it's like, she's just such an unlikable person that it's like, there's no way you can root for her. It's just like you look at her and you hear these stories about how she was and what she did. And it's hard to root for Casey Anthony. And I think that's,'s hard to root for Casey Anthony. And I think that's, and then on top of that, you have these factors around this case where nobody is claiming that there's an unknown party that we're unaware of at this point.

Everyone, including her own attorney is saying, yeah, this incident happened on Casey's watch, right? He has a different reason for it, but it was still on Casey's watch. And that in and of itself is a tough pill for a lot of people out there to swallow, especially parents who are putting themselves in her shoes and have been able to raise their kids without having something like this happen. So it's a polarizing case. Yeah. But how understanding do you think people would be if that's what really happened? That Kaylee drowned accidentally in a pool? How understanding do you think they would be versus what actually happened and how not

understanding people are of that like very understanding i think it happens all the time this situation you know pool drownings happen more than they should but they happen to good people um so yeah i i agree with you people would definitely if that was the original thing and there was 911 calls and everything to support it you and i would not be talking about this case right now no no, no, no. And Casey would have done her time and had her life in front of her. And she might not even have done any time. You know, if it was an accident, you know, the parent at that point has suffered enough

if they really didn't mean for this to happen. So yeah, she might have, nobody might even know who Casey Anthony is if she had just, if this is what happened, if she had just called the police or called the rescue and done what most parents would normally do. But yo, check it out. Isn't it kind of twisted to think that if that's what really happened, Casey now has once again supported the idea that lying gets you out of things. If she had told the truth, she would have had to face some repercussions. But she didn't. She lied and she hid told the truth, she would have had to face some repercussions, but she didn't. She lied and she hid everything and now she's free as a bird, right?

She's free. I guess it's all like personal perspective. Like, yeah, she's free, but I would hate to go through life being viewed the way I'm viewed by the majority of the public. I guess some people don't care about that, but everyone knows her name.

She gets some drinks thrown in her face every so often. Yeah. I mean, everyone knows her name and it's not only about being hated, it's what she's hated for. I think someone like Casey Anthony doesn't care whether they're famous or infamous. What did she say in one of her last interviews? I sleep just fine at night. Yeah. Well, God bless her heart because I sure as hell couldn't. No. No.

God, don't listen. don't listen derrick doesn't always talking about shine your shine your heaven light somewhere else man even on the christmas even on christmas eve stephanie still for dropping bombs she don't care she do not call in your stocking kc call in your stocking plus something or stocking yeah so that night that you know casey text amy and she's oh, Kaylee used the big girl potty. Proud mama. Both she and Kaylee spent Now, it's not clear if something specific happened between Casey and Ricardo at this time. But later, around 6.46 p.m., Casey texted her friend Amy and said, quote, So, Rick and I aren't friends anymore. He finally decided to tell me that he loves me.

And unfortunately, I'm not there with him anymore. I waited months for this to happen. And now that it has, I can't say that he is the only guy I have feelings for. It's like I have to choose. He's throwing everything in my face. Ugh, he still wants me to date him knowing that I'm starting to like Tony. I can't do that. I'm not that person.

I respect him too much to do that. End quote. The next night was Wednesday, June 11th. Amy and Ricardo went to Club Voyage again. I think that all the kids and like young adults in Orlando, right? They're just clubbing every weekend. Is that a Florida thing? Club kids every weekend?

I mean, maybe. I wouldn't know. It feels like there's definitely that like club kid culture down there where they're just like every weekend nightclub. But Casey was supposed to have met them out at Club Voyage, but she told them she was working and she couldn't. And that same day, she changed her Facebook status to in a relationship with Tony Lazaro. So, you know, you know, it's serious. I mean, marriage is the next step after you change your Facebook status.

Facebook official. It's marriage now and moving into Casey's parents' house because they're moving out, apparently. All right. Let's take a quick break they're moving out apparently. All right. Let's take a quick break while we contemplate this. We'll be right back. All right. So on Thursday, Casey brought Kaylee to the Mall of Millennia, where Tony Lazzaro was handing out flyers for a club event he was promoting. When he was done with the flyers, he met Casey and Kaylee for a late lunch at the Cheesecake Factory.

And after that, Casey and Kaylee went for a walk with Christine Marie Chester. This was a friend of Casey's who had two children of her own. They all met at Lake Underhill Park, and Christine said everything was fine and normal. Casey was as bubbly and chatty as ever, and Kaylee was well-behaved and played nicely with Christine's sons. That night, Casey was texting with her friend Amy when all of a sudden at 10.24 p.m., Casey told Amy that she had to make a late-night phone call for work, and she would call her back in a bit. Now at 11.15 p.m. that same night, someone in the Anthony home made some internet searches. A later computer forensics report showed keyword searches for Zanata, Fernandez, Gonzalez, H25, and Jacksonville.

Now, it's never revealed who made these internet searches. And it's always tough to put a face behind a computer. We went through this in the Peterson case. You know, like there's a search happening in this house at this time, but everybody in the family is home at this time because it's like 1130 at night. So you can say it could have been anybody. But our minds obviously jump to the fact that Casey made those searches. Maybe she's trying to create more depth to the identity of this nanny because she knows that a lot of people are about to start asking her about this nanny. But the searches may have also been made, you know, maybe by her parents who were trying to get some more information about this woman that Casey claimed she trusted enough to leave their precious Kaylee with. So I'm not going to just go out on a limb and tell you for a fact that Casey made these searches. I'm 85% sure that she did, but it could have been Cindy or George maybe trying to find out

more information about Kaylee's nanny. They have never admitted to that, but who knows? And you were saying as far as the context of the conversation between Casey and Amy, all we know is they were having a conversation. We don't know about what, but they were having a conversation and abruptly she said, I have to make a late night phone call for work. Which obviously she didn't because she doesn't have a job. So who knows why she got off the know about what, but they were having a conversation and abruptly she said, I have to make a late night phone call for work. Which obviously she didn't because she doesn't have a job. So who knows why she got off the phone so abruptly. But we're to assume that the conversation was normal before that with her and Amy.

Yes. Amy didn't say that there was anything crazy about the conversation. Yeah. Okay. The next morning, Friday, June 13th, Casey's friend Amy texted her very early at 6.15 AM.m. because Casey had promised to drive Amy to Jacksonville that day so that Amy could buy a new car. And Amy was texting Casey to see if she was up and ready to go. Casey texted Amy back and she said she was sorry, but she would not be able to go with her to Jacksonville that day because her father, George Anthony, was in the hospital. Casey said that George had suffered a

stroke. And I mean, did you know that George Anthony had a stroke like right before Kaylee went missing? I did not know that. It's because it's not true. It's a complete lie. It's a complete lie. I thought the same thing was catching me there. I'm like, all right, because I never heard about that. No, it was reading her text to her friends is so gross because we know this is a lie. And for me, like, I mean, I've fibbed, you know, I used to call into work and say I had mono and all sorts of things. But you draw the line when you're talking about your family members being sick or dying. I knew people who used to make up stuff like, oh, my grandma's in the hospital. She's dying. I can't come to work. I knew people did that, but I would never because it feels like bad karma or something. But I think lying about your family member being sick or like dying so you can get out of something is the lowest of the low. So Amy texted Casey back. She's like,

oh, honey, don't worry. Like, are you OK? You know, take care of yourself and your family. I hope your dad's going to be OK. And Casey wrote back, quote, he will be. He just gave my mom and I a huge scare. Love you, too. I'm glad he's all right. He's stubborn. End quote. Man, she keeps like going on with it. And later, Casey invited Ricardo Morales to meet her out at Fusion nightclub. She he did ask Casey if she and Amy had made it to Jacksonville that day. And Casey repeated the same lie. She'd been unable to because her father had gone to the hospital because of his stroke. Now, I don't think that Casey was actually inviting Ricardo Morales to Fusion Nightclub as like a friend. But she was sort of doing it in the capacity of like trying to drum up a bunch of people who would show up at the club that night and make her boyfriend Tony look good since he was running promotions for a hip hop showcase that was being held at the club that night. Casey had texted many people and messaged even more people on Facebook trying to get them to go to Fusion.

So at this point, it was like Casey kind of worked for Tony, like not officially, but she kind of felt like she was the Bonnie to his Clyde. So she was working with like the shot girls and training them and she was trying to help with promotions and stuff. You know, she kind of felt needed and necessary and utilized in this position, maybe for the first time in a while since we know she didn't actually have a legitimate job. The club photographer that night, Teddy Piper, he said that this was the third Friday in a row he could remember Casey being at Fusion. And the owner of the club would later be stunned to find out that Casey was a mother because he said this was not his typical club clientele. You know, we don't usually have

mothers hanging out in Fusion. And he had seen and spoken to Casey several times in her capacity as Tony's girlfriend slash little helper, and she'd never even mentioned having a daughter. That brings us to Sunday, June 15, 2008. It was Father's Day, and Cindy Anthony brought little Kaylee to visit with Alexander Plezia at the Avanti Nursing Home in Mount Dora, Florida. Alexander, if you remember, was Cindy's father and Kaylee's great-grandfather. And there's this really adorable video of Kaylee and Alexander snuggling. You know, he's singing softly to her. I think he was singing, You Are My Sunshine. But according to a nurse who was on duty that day, the reality of the situation was not really as sweet as the

resulting pictures and videos. And Kaylee didn't seem to feel completely comfortable at the nursing home. This nurse, her name was Nurse Angel, she said that she saw Kaylee at the home, and Kaylee kind of seemed like really tense and anxious, so the nurse stopped to play with her for a little bit. Angel said, quote, I was like, hey cutie, tell me your name, and she kind of blushed, and then I said, can I get a hug? And I picked her up and she laid on my shoulder. End quote. A source close to the family feels that Kaylee's presence at the nursing home was completely unnecessary and kind of inappropriate.

Since Alexander, he was struggling with dementia. He'd had a stroke recently. You know, he was in a wheelchair. And being at a place like this as a young child can be confusing and scary. This source said, quote, it had nothing to do with Kaylee. Kaylee was nothing more than a prop that day. Most people are props to Cindy Anthony, end quote. So I will say I don't I don't I don't have a problem with bringing small children to nursing homes.

I think that it can be scary if you don't explain things to them or if you don't let them know what to expect. But I think it's also really good for the young kids to see their grandparents or great-grandparents. And I think it really helps the residents of these nursing homes to see these little kids smiling and laughing and playing and having a great time. So I don't have a huge problem with it. But I do see where these people are coming from, where it seems like Cindy brought Kaylee there for show. Like, oh, look, here's my granddaughter. It was this big song and dance for Alexander when it was kind of awkward and not super comfortable for Kaylee, who wasn't really close to Alexander Plazia. I agree with everything you said. I was in a situation like that with my

grandmother. She was in a nursing home for multiple years and she was not in the best shape, obviously, at that point. And, you know, there were a lot of people in the nursing home who would see my younger daughter, Tenley, at the time. I only, you know, Peyton wasn't born yet. And it was a little uncomfortable for Tenley because she'd had these random people who want to, like, talk to her and touch her and all these things. And I think that would be, you know, tough for any little kid, you know, it's a little unnerving, but I agree with everything you said where, you know, we can't just like drop the hammer on, Oh my God, how could she bring her to the nursing home? So I'm with you. I'm with you a hundred percent. I really don't have any rebuttal. Like I, I, I can empathize with that

because I've been there. And we also can't put these people in nursing homes and then be like, you're caught off from the world. You never get to see a child again. Yeah. But as far as Kaylee being unnerved about it, like totally normal. Yeah. Like doesn't, I mean, there could obviously always be something to it. But for me, there's no red flags there.

And I think it can be traumatic for kids when they, you know, they're that young and their nursing homes are being brought to funerals and things like. Of course. That was, I mean, I don't remember a lot from my, from my like early childhood, but I do remember going to a funeral and I was like, I was traumatized. I was terrified. I still remember the way the person looked in the casket and they looked like a wax doll and I was completely freaked out, man. Maybe that's what's wrong with me. Come to think of it. Add it to the list. Yeah. Add it to the list. But, but I, you know, I do, I do think that people want to kind of like drag Cindy over the coals for this. And Cindy, I'm not her biggest fan, but I think I can say when I disagree with

an attack. Well, it's a popular feeling to like kind of go after someone. If everyone else is, why not? So I get it. We're going to get there. I'm sure in a lot of things we're not going to agree with, but this just to me is a, as I like to say, a nothing burger. After leaving the nursing home, Cindy and Kaylee went to the home of Shirley Plezia for dinner, Cindy's mother. They ate chili and, you know, Kaylee was kind of playing and Cindy and Shirley were talking about Casey. What were they going to do with Casey? How were they going to put a stop to her lying and stealing?

How are they going to force her to be a better mother? And the conversation's getting heated because Casey just stole from Shirley recently, like the month before. And she's mad. She's not talking to Casey. And she's kind of maybe like kind of putting it on Cindy's plate a little bit. Like your daughter did this. Your daughter, what are you going to do about it? Right. I mean, I've been in these conversations. I've seen these conversations conversations i think i can safely say this is probably how it went down especially hearing how uh shirley spoke in her emails you know kind of like shirley seems kind of judgmental by the way i'm just gonna say that all right shirley casey's grandmother shirley seemed man. She's in her email. She's like, maybe Cindy's depressed

because she's 50. Can you imagine she's telling Cindy at the table? She's like, listen, you're 50. Maybe you're too old to handle this stuff right now. And Cindy's like, lady, aren't you like 80, man? Like back off. So I can see that this was probably a strenuous and stressful conversation for Cindy. And Cindy mentioned to Shirley that she had started exploring her options for getting full custody of Casey's daughter. Cindy's brother, Rick, said, quote, they discussed it that evening.

They discussed what to do about Casey. So Cindy, according to my mom, left there with a head of steam to confront her, end quote. For anybody who doesn't know what that means, when you have a head of steam, it's like an old fashioned way of saying like, you're pissed, you're pissed, you're ready to go. You know, you're like, like the old cartoons where the person's face turns red and steam comes out of their ears. That's what that's what Cindy Anthony looked like when she left her

mom's house and drove home to confront Casey. And Cindy's brother, Rick, went on to say that he believed Cindy at that point before she even drove home had made up her mind to file for legal custody of Kaylee. So when Cindy and Kaylee got home that night, George Anthony was still at work. His normal shift during the week was 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. But Casey was home and Cindy was spoiling for a fight. We don't know exactly what happened between Cindy and Casey that evening. We have to rely on eyewitnesses to try and piece it together. Keep in mind, this is June 15th.

It's the night before Kaylee Anthony vanished. On the evening of June 15th, neighbors heard shouting coming from the Anthony home. It turns out that Cindy had printed photos off of Casey's social media accounts. Photos of Casey wearing an American flag. Photos of Casey puking in a toilet, you know, pictures of Casey out with friends, partying, drinking when she was supposed to have been at work. So Cindy's like, listen, all these pictures, I checked these dates. You told me you were working. I watched your child for you so you could go to work. And this is what you were really doing.

And Cindy told Casey that she was an unfit mother. She wanted her to move out and stand on her own two feet, but she would not be taking Kaylee. Kaylee would remain in her home where she belonged. Casey's brother, Lee, had been a witness to many of these arguments before, arguments between his mother and his sister, but later he would confide in a friend that this time it was so much worse. He said that they were shouting at each other, and then Cindy jumped at Casey and grabbed her by the neck with both of her hands in an attempt to choke her. And Jesse Grund, if you remember Jesse Grund, he was Casey's ex-boyfriend, the one she told him he was the father of Kaylee, and they were engaged, and then she broke up with him because she said he loved her daughter too much. He also said that he had heard from someone who was at the house that night that this did happen, that Cindy did, you know, choke or try to choke Casey.

And it was really bad. This is important because I personally believe that this argument this night was the catalyst for what happened next, which basically was Casey taking Kaylee from the house and Kaylee never coming back. Casey may have taken her mother's threats very seriously, and she had enough supporting evidence to believe that Cindy was probably not bluffing about kicking her out of the house and keeping her daughter, right? Because three years prior to this, Cindy had kicked her own husband out of the house when she got sick of him wasting all their money on gambling sites. In an email to her sister, Cindy's mother, Shirley Plezia, had written, quote, Cindy was doing fine, supporting the house, saving, etc., till George got them into debt with the online gambling,

getting credit cards to cover the losses, then running up credit card bills. Cindy used a lot of her savings and took an equity loan on the house. So she has two big payments on the house. She used the rest of her 401k to play catch-up on car loans and all the other bills. She saw a lawyer before about the divorce before she took him back. George's lawyer said he could get half the house, which Cindy has paid every penny on, and she would also have to pay him alimony because she has supported him all these years. Cindy asked her lawyer if they could do that. He said yes, theyimony because she has supported him all these years. Cindy asked her lawyer if they could do that. He said yes, they could, because she had been the main supporter ever

since they came to Florida. Ain't that a bitch? She said there's no way he's getting the house that she has paid for, so she has to stay married, knowing she will never get ahead again. Even if she wanted to get an apartment and sold the house, he could still claim half of everything she has. That's why at 50, she's so depressed. All these years of working and between George and now Casey, she's living payday to payday. She says she knows there is a sickness that runs in George's family. Cindy said she has thought of doing away with herself if it wasn't for Kaylee and dad and me. But with the pressure she's under, even that might not be enough to keep her from harming

herself, end quote. So this is a lot. And listen, like I said, not Cindy Anthony's biggest fan, because I do think that she was a little bit of an enabler, a lot a bit of an enabler, but this is a lot for anyone to handle. If everything that Shirley Plezia is saying is true, and in an email to her sister, I can't imagine why she would be lying. George Anthony pretty much screwed his entire family over with his bad habits, with his bad handling of money. He screwed them over, and he wasn't really working or holding on to a job in the way that he should have to provide financially. So again, we're not saying like Cindy's a saint here, but if we're to believe everything up to this point,

it sounds like Cindy was juggling a lot. She had a husband. Under a lot of pressure, right? Who wasn't reliable. Yeah. Yeah, and her daughter wasn't reliable. And in the mix of all of this, you have this innocent little girl

who doesn't realize what's going on. And Cindy's trying to shelter her from that so that she's not being traumatized by witnessing this firsthand. And it's like Cindy's trying to shelter her from that so that she's not being traumatized by witnessing this firsthand. And it's like Cindy's Cindy's basically holding everything up while everybody around her is trying to knock everything down. And that can be incredibly tough. I don't want to say I like the fact, but it's great to know that you have this altercation that was essentially confirmed by surrounding neighbors, confirmed by Lee, and confirmed by Jesse Grunt. So we know that happened.

We know there was a big dispute the night before Kaylee's disappearance, which is a good thing to know that it's not just hearsay. It's pretty much confirmed by multiple sources. Yeah, but Cindy and George Anthony said, no, there was no fight. I don't buy that. I don't buy that at all.

Yeah, you can't. Unfortunately, you can't buy them because they're involved participants, right? so we're looking for unbiased witnesses and even lee saying although it was i think it sounds like it was second nature it was like lee saying second hand he said it to a friend yeah yeah so that is a little bit you know tough but having jesse say listen casey confided in me and also neighbors, again, who wouldn't have known what happened inside the house unless they heard it. They heard it. Too much of a coincidence to not be true.

So I think it's pretty safe to say, you know, from a reasonable degree of certainty, there was a fight. There was a disagreement that night. A big one, yeah. Minimum that may have gotten violent. We weren't there but it sounds like it got violent i i agree i think they're dead they were definitely screaming at each other and it was bad yeah right and i mean because at this point it's all it's all come to a head cindy's been sort of believing casey maybe maybe believing her but wanting to believe her

wanting to believe her i think is more important. Because you almost feel more betrayed when you want to believe somebody so badly that you overlook everything. And then you find out at the end, you were wrong and you feel like a stupid, you know, you feel stupid. And so I think that once she saw those pictures, once she started doing some investigation and research, which I'm surprised it took her this long, Casey's Facebook was right there, man. But once she did that, and it was there, and she confronted Casey, it was like it all came to a head. Casey's like, there's nowhere to go. I can't deny this. That's my go to. And Cindy's like, I finally have proof and you're going to answer for this. So I can imagine it was a very volatile conversation. Yeah. And it almost sounds

like if I was hearing you right, that maybe Cindy had these photos and everything from social media prior to her conversation with Shirley. And maybe she was seeing these things, keeping them aside, but kind of biting her tongue. And then Shirley just kind of like lit the fire under like, you're looking like a fool right now. Yeah, Shirley. You're looking like a fool. Shirley was like, ain't that a bitch? Yeah, and she pulled out the – and that's when Cindy went home.

So it does seem like that might have not been the point where she realized she was being made to look like a fool, but there was, this was a totality of things where she was seeing the evidence. It was right on the wall, but she was finding a way maybe for Kaylee's sake to kind of bite her tongue because she didn't want a situation where Casey was going to remove Kaylee from her life. But you know, for whatever reason, this was not the day. This was not that day. She was not biting her tongue anymore. No. Yeah. Once again, I can see how that would absolutely happen and boil over. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Okay. So we know that Cindy had kicked George out, kicked her husband out of the house, and she planned to divorce him. She was going to be done with him until she found out how much he would be entitled to and how it would basically destroy her financially.

And she would continue supporting him even after they were separated. And Casey knew. She seemed to know about all of this because she'd been telling her friends that her parents were fighting and they were going to get a divorce. And so she knew, I think, that when Cindy was getting ready to kick someone out, they were going to get kicked out. She might take them back later if she found out they were going to get half of her shit, but she would be kicking them out. So on the night of June 15th, Casey talked to her boyfriend, Tony Lazaro, on the phone for 80 minutes. And for the record, there's no real clarity about what this long conversation entailed. I've looked it up everywhere. I remember when I first started researching this case years ago, I looked everywhere to find out what was said during that conversation.

And there's nothing I can find anywhere. They got off the phone right around 1 a.m., but they continued texting until Tony called her back a bit after 3 a.m. Kaylee slept in Casey's bed that night, which seemed to be their usual routine when they were home. They would both sleep in Casey's bed together, even though Kaylee had her own room and her own bed. And Kaylee woke up around 7.30 a.m. on the morning of Monday, June 16th, right before her grandmother Cindy left for work. Casey was still asleep, so George Anthony put on some coffee and gave Kaylee some orange juice and cereal, which she ate while she watched a video in the family room. George claims that Casey emerged from her bedroom somewhere between 9 a.m. and 10 a.m., but they did not discuss the argument that

she'd had with her mother the night before. According to the evidence, Casey had been up and using her computer for a bit before she left her bedroom. From 7.56 to 8.06 a.m., Casey was talking with a friend named Ryan online, and she was trying to convince him to come to Fusion Nightclub the following Friday. She was also researching outfits that shot girls would wear. And for anyone who doesn't know, shot girls are women. They're not girls. They're usually over the age of 18, but they're women who walk around a nightclub. They're usually scantily dressed, and they carry shots around. And that's basically what they do. And like I said, Casey was sort of trying to help Anthony Lazaro with his club stuff. And she had taken on the job of like madam of this shot girl group. Like she was their manager and she was researching outfits that shot girls would wear.

And she went to sites like Victoria's Secret and Fredericks of Hollywood. She was like researching Tila Tequila, all sorts of stuff. George Anthony claims that about 10 minutes to 1, he saw Casey and Kaylee getting ready to leave the house for the day while he was watching his favorite show, Drive Ups, Diners, and Dives on the Food Network. Kaylee, he said, was dressed in little jean shorts, a pink t-shirt, sandals, and socks, and she was wearing her trademark large white sunglasses. She also had a little off-white monkey backpack slung over her shoulder. Casey was also carrying a backpack, but George recognized it as the one she always brought with her when she was

going to work. And later, he would tell the police, quote, we just talked about going to work. She knew that I was going to be going to work that afternoon. That was just a normal conversation, end quote. George said that Casey was headed out to a work meeting, and after she got Kaylee dressed, Kaylee walked out, approached George, and said, quote, I'm going to see Zanny, end quote. This is chilling to me, man. This is chilling because, you know, I'm sure we're not spoiling anything for anyone, but Zanny the nanny does not exist. She's not a real person. So this is a woman that Kaylee would have never met in real life, right? Yeah. So I mean, what you're hinting at here is that Casey had Kaylee lie for her. Yeah. Casey coached Kaylee, right? This is a woman that Kaylee never met. So Casey must have

told Kaylee, go out and tell JoJo, because that's what Kaylee called George, Anthony, Jojo, go out and tell Jojo, you're going to see Zanny. So it almost feels a little premeditated at this point, where it's sort of like she's setting up her alibi, right? It didn't come from me that Kaylee's going to see Zanny. Kaylee told you that. Yeah, the fact that she's bringing her in on her lies is, I can see why it's so troubling. I agree. And chilling, because if we believe what happened is that Kaylee killed Kaylee and then lied to everyone about Kaylee being with Zanny the nanny, then we would have to believe that basically Casey knew that when she told Kaylee to go out and tell George Anthony, I'm going to see Zanny. And that chills me to my bones because you basically had this two year old child set up your alibi for you to murder her murder yeah right oh yeah that's terrible now of course jose baez is like we don't know if kaylee actually said that that's just what george anthony says so a valid point jose baez i can't stand you but valid point maybe

maybe if what casey says is true and kaylee died in the swimming pool and george anthony helped her you know hide it maybe that was a lie made by George Anthony to the police. I'm just going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt here. But otherwise, it is chilling. Well, I will say, to even go back further, I have a little asterisk on my page right now, because everything up to this point, it can kind of be substantiated. But when you start talking about statements from George Anthony, I have to put the asterisk next to it because there's a real potential that he was involved in some part of this. So everything he says, when there's nothing to substantiate it, it's a little harder for

me to just take it and assume it's the truth. So I'm writing everything down still. But again, I'm taking it all kind of with a grain of salt. Yeah, because at this point, the testimonies diverge, right? Casey says one thing happened. George says this happened. And those are the only two people who are home right, if he's a cop, he would know that they're going to do that. And that's why he would say that. And he would have looked up the guide before saying it. So there are ways around it.

But it's kind of like a cat and mouse game, right? You're trying to trip them up on something that you could substantiate that they're lying about. But yeah, you know, I'm listening. I'm writing. But I'm also keeping that kind of filter on it. Like there's a real potential here that George was somehow involved. And if so, you know, he would have incentive to say certain things that he's saying.

I don't know why he would say this. That would kind of contradict him being involved. But we'll see. I'm going to keep I'm going to keep an open mind. Well, Casey was close behind Kaylee and she told her father that she was going to work and she may end up staying the night at Zanny's house because she was working late. And if she got back from work and Kaylee was already asleep, Casey wouldn't want to wake her. George said that was fine, even though neither he nor his wife had ever met this nanny, which I find to be strange because they were so intent. Remember on meeting Jeffrey Hopkins, who, you know, they thought Casey was dating him and they wanted to meet him and

they set up a bunch of dinners. But Casey had been finding a way to work Zannie the nanny into conversations with her family and friends since 2006. So that's really something that I think everyone has to understand that Casey was telling people she was bringing Kaylee to Zannie. So that's two years. And they had never wanted to meet this woman that their grandchild was spending so much time with. I don't understand it. I'm with you. I can't. No justification for that either, especially if your granddaughter, who you care so much about, is going to be spending time with this woman.

Right. Like spending nights with her sometimes and stuff. Like I can promise you I would be meeting this person. I would be at their apartment making sure it was like, you know, up to code and everything. Especially knowing their daughter. Yes. Not making the best decisions. It's like, Casey, you know, up to code and everything. Especially knowing their daughter. Yes. Not making the best decisions. It's like, Casey, you know, we'd love to meet her.

Have her come over. Yeah, have her come over for dinner like Jeffrey Hopkins, you know? So at that point, George walked Casey and Kaylee out to Casey's white Pontiac Sunfire. He helped Kaylee get buckled into her car seat. He gave her a kiss, waved goodbye, and told her he would see her later. As Casey drove away, little Kaylee blew her grandfather a kiss through the window, and he had no idea that this was the last time he would ever see her little smiling face. It would be the last time anyone would see Kaylee Anthony besides

her mother. So for your records, this is June 16th at around 1 10. I got it. So we already know that Casey's not going to work, right? Because we know she doesn't have a job. So where did she go when she left the Hope Spring Drive house on that June afternoon? According to her cell phone records, she did not go far at all. She made three phone calls that pinged off of cell phone towers, the same cell phone towers that her phone would ping off if she was at her parents' house. At 1 p.m., she called her boyfriend, Tony, and she spoke with him for 14 minutes. At 1.44 p.m., Casey called her friend, Amy, spoke to her for 36 minutes. And at 2.52 p.m., Casey called Jesse Grund, the man who had once been the love of her life and her future husband, but now they weren't even friends. So why was she calling him, right? Well, Jesse Grund claims that Casey told him things were

bad at home. She said her parents were getting divorced and she couldn't live with them any longer. During this conversation, Jesse is sure that he heard the familiar sounds of Kaylee babbling in the background, the same thing he would hear during most of his calls with Casey. But if we're trying to use this timeline to figure out when Kaylee died, it's not really concrete evidence to use Jesse thinking he heard Kaylee in the background because his recollections could be flawed. He could be thinking of a different phone conversation. He could just be hearing what he's used to hearing. It's really tough to say for sure that Kaylee was alive at this point,

I guess is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. I mean, as we're trying to narrow down a timeline, if it doesn't appear that there's any incentive for Jesse to lie to us, I want to believe him because it does, again, it helps us. It helps us to kind of narrow down a timeline, but I'm with you. It's possible he heard music or whatever. You heard the windows were down and there's kids playing. He's in the car. Exactly. There are all sorts of weird noises. Weird noises. But I will say if someone's in your car, it usually does sound slightly different if they're yelling in the background where literally you have to tell them, hey, shut up, drop them on the phone. For the purposes of what we're doing, unless you're going to tell me that later we find

out Jesse was lying to law enforcement, I'm me. You guys don't have to follow my lead. I'm putting down here that it's credible that at 2.52, Kaylee Anthony was still alive per Jesse Grund. That's what I'm writing down. Obviously, I'm sure everyone's taking notes at home. If they're not driving, don't be writing and taking notes. Don't do it. But that's what I'm going with right now. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll get back to the rest of the timeline. And hopefully we will be able to narrow this down a little bit more. So remember George Anthony, when he works during the day, he works from 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.

So on this day, the 16th, it seemed like Casey was kind of just buying time, driving around, making phone calls, waiting for her father, George, to leave for work before circling back and returning to the house on Hope Spring Drive and then hopping back on the computer. But there was also activity on the computer after Casey left the house and before George left for work. At 1.50 p.m., someone signed on to AOL Instant Messenger. Remember that? That's a blast from the past. So someone signs on to AIM and then whoever signed on to AIM and whoever was using the computer, they went to Google and searched foolproof suffocation. And this is the search that I think you were talking about when you said the prosecution missed it the first time around when they were doing the forensics digital reporting and stuff on her computers. This foolproof suffocation search was the one that was missed. But the interesting thing is this search was done when Casey wasn't home because George hadn't left

for work yet. And George claims she left at like one o'clock and this is at 1.50. So I think when you said, oh, you mentioned this before, I don't even think it was in the series, but I think you and I were talking about it before we brought up Casey. But just for people who didn't hear that,

we were talking about this case in another series that we did. It might've been Lacey Peterson, I can't remember. But from what I was hearing, when you do a search warrant, they have to be very specific. And it looks like they took it literally, the law enforcement part of this,

where they searched the history for whether it was Google Chrome or whatever it might have been. They searched for Internet Explorer, but there was another browser, like a lot of of us. I have Safari and Google Chrome. They only searched the browser history for one of those browsers, right? They didn't search it for the other one, which is when later they found this, this foolproof suffocation. Wasn't it even after trial? I feel like it was after the trial man like the trial was done so just taking this

as truth right here like the 150 foolproof suffocation i just had a quick theory come to my head and it could be completely off base but i want to throw it out there do it so based on triangulation of cell phone records you know of the cell phone coordinates we know casey wasn't home and she was on the phone j Jesse could hear her in the car, et cetera. So I think it's safe to say Casey Anthony was not home when the search was conducted. I agree. And George Anthony said she wasn't home, right? And George Anthony said she wasn't home. So, and we know Cindy wasn't home. And Lee wasn't, Lee wasn't home either. No, no one was home, but George, man. So George, knowing that he's having these problems with Cindy as well, where she's not

happy with him about gambling and she's kind of, you listen, you know, a person long enough, you know what they're thinking without saying it. And he might've been starting to read the room that Cindy wanted to kick him to the curb too, because she'd already exposed all his gambling problems. Could he have been searching this for Cindy? Well, check this out. See what happens next. All right. Okay. Okay. I'm good. Hey, at least you guys know I'm not reading ahead. I'm not cheating. Let me tell you that I do not think George Anthony has the balls to kill anyone himself.

A. But hold on. First of all, whoever typed in foolproof suffocation, they spelled it wrong, but Google corrected it. And then whoever had made the search clicked on a link in the search results of foolproof suffocation, and that link was titled Venturing into the Pro-Suicide Pit. And this is apparently a blog that discusses issues around suicide, like how to do it, if you want to do it. I know where you're going. So next, whoever was using the computer went to a page that said heat can melt disposable breathing circuits. And then they visited a website about gardening. So Casey Anthony's attorney, Jose Baez, he's made allegations that the person doing these searches could not possibly have been Casey Anthony.

Because by George's own statements, she'd already left the house. And, you know, George was there alone. So Jose Baez believes that these searches were done by George Anthony, who was known to be an avid gardener and who also used AOL Instant Messenger very often. Baez believes that George Anthony was thinking of taking his own life, and Baez has his theories about why, which we'll get into later. But I mean, if you think about it, we did discuss how early on in George's adulthood, he had attempted to take his own life. And if you know this case, you'll know that after Kaylee goes missing, George does try to take his own life again. He goes to some

seedy hotel and he tries to kill himself. So this isn't out of the realm of possibility. The foolproof suffocation could have had nothing to do with Kaylee Anthony. I think as much as I don't like Baez either, I completely agree with him based on what we know, what we have here. Not only that, I didn't ask you this, but the AIM account that was signed into, everyone has their own individual AIM account. Were we able to confirm that it was George's AIM account? They didn't say that. I don't think they were able to confirm or they would have said.

I mean, because you get to enter a password. So like I had my own AIM account. My brother had his own. And like, obviously, we didn't share AIM accounts. So I bet you probably could have. Maybe law enforcement knew. It was just never revealed. And Casey wasn't an AIM user.

She was a Facebook messenger person, stuff like that. AIM is more old school. Yeah, for sure. No, that makes total sense. And as soon as you started talking, I'm like, I remember we're hearing about him being suicidal in the past, foolproof suffocation. I'm thinking suffocation of another when in actuality, he was looking as a form of suffocation for suicide. Possibly, yeah. I concur. I mean, from what we're being told, what we know, what was going on in the household as far as Casey's now considering taking Kaylee and leaving and Cindy wants her out. And George might be like, man, is Cindy on the

warpath? Am I next? Yeah. They had a huge fight the night before where it almost came to blows. Things are not going well in the Anthony household. And George is looking for a way out, exploring a way out. But Jose Baez's theory does sort of, his theory at least, does connect to Kaylee. The reason that George was doing those things. I'm not sure how much I believe that, but I do definitely believe that the foolproof suffocation search, I don't think it had anything to do with Kaylee. I think it was just George. You know, he's like, I'm alone in the house. Let me wallow in all my pain and sadness. Yeah. You was just George. He's like, I'm alone in the house. Let me wallow

in all my pain and sadness. Yeah. You have the aim, you have the garden, you have all these things that line up with that. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I mean, additional proof that this was not Casey on the computer is the fact that she was on the phone with her friend Amy at the time. We already went over the fact that she was on the phone with Amy, I think at like 1.42. So there was also a call that came in to Casey's cell phone from her father at 3.04 p.m. So this is right about when he gets to work. Now, I do want to talk about this for a second because I want to do it before I forget. And then you can remind me when we talk about this actual part in the timeline. But Jose Baez thinks that George called Casey when he got

to work because this all fits in with Casey's version of the story where Kaylee died accidentally. And then George told her, how could you do this? Blah, blah, blah. I'm going to take care of it. Because then Casey said that later her father called her to say to her on the phone, it's handled. And this call comes in at 3 or 4 p.m. to Casey's cell phone. We know that to be a fact. So that kind of like made me feel take care of it. And that's when he calls her at three and say, it's taken care of. Yes, exactly. Right after he gets to work.

This is Jose Baez's theory. And this is basically what Casey says happened. That's her timeline where Kaylee drowns in the pool. George finds out about it. He's mad. And he tells Casey, I'm going to handle this, go and do something. And then he calls her right after he gets to work to tell her it's

handled. I mean, I know. I mean, can you poke any holes in it right now? Not right now. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I got nothing to say.

I mean, it's completely plausible. Not only plausible. I know. Highly likely. I know. Like, why else would he be calling her at that time when she said she was going to a work meeting? What is he calling her for?

He never says. And I won't even say it's as likely as the other scenarios when that's all i'll say i'm not saying it's the scenario but it's not you know it's not impossible we'll say not impossible and completely makes sense if it was if we were to be a fly on the wall that they match up the only thing that doesn't align with it is the fact that jesse allegedly heard kaylee in the car but you've already brought it up. Like he could have been mistaken. Very possible. And maybe that's why Casey was calling multiple people during that time,

you know, three different people in that very short period of time because she was trying to give herself a little bit more of an alibi. And you know what? She could have gone to a freaking playground and sat there on a bench and all the kids playing in the background sounded like kids. Yeah. You know? And why wouldn't that work? work you know if she doesn't have kaylee anymore that's other people who could discredit her narrative she had to stay in the car yeah because if she gets out like if you would

have told me well she stopped at a gas station or she seen by any independent witness that's seen kaylee in the car there's nothing only two people in the car, allegedly, was her and Kaylee. So to just drive around in circles to make those phone calls. Doesn't make sense. I mean, we can look at it and say she's buying time because she wants George to leave

because she wants to go back to her house, right? Because she doesn't. She's been there all day. But she's not going any. But she's got to make it seem like she's leaving the house, I guess, to go to work

because she's got a job. And then she has no place to go at this point. So she goes back home, but she's got to wait for him to go to work. I agree that that narrative honestly doesn't make any sense to me. Why wouldn't you just stay home and then tell your dad you were working later? The narrative of her leaving so that George could do whatever he had to do and then he would call her later and tell her it was all set. And then she goes back to the house. Then she goes back to the house after he calls and says it's all set.

That makes much more sense. But 1250, right? 1250, she left the house around that time. So she left two hours. And listen, he had to be at work for three. He had to be at work at three. So he probably had to leave a half hour before that. So you're talking, you're going to leave for an hour and a half before he goes because you don't want to like you know be in the house but you were already in the house with him for hours yeah that's that's why it doesn't it doesn't make any sense but her leaving because he's like take a drive get out of here i got some i'll take care of this and i'll let you know when it's done and then her getting that that call from him at 304 and then she goes back to the

house what's the behavior like did any of the the tony amy or jesse say that casey was something was odd on the phone i know it's all kind of like going back but nothing she was cool as a cucumber completely normal nobody else heard kaylee in the background tony or amy no nobody heard her nobody said nobody said they did but i mean amy was on a call for 36 minutes yeah didn't hear kaylee once okay i mean she didn't she didn't say it if she did. Okay. But I feel like that's something she would have been asked. I would think so.

Yeah. It's tough for me, man, because I don't see the reason why she would leave for a couple of hours and then go back when her father left. No. I don't see it. I mean, unless they were fighting in the morning and he didn't want to admit it and she didn't want to admit it, but. Yeah.

He didn't say that and neither did she. No. So once George was gone and Casey was back at home using the computer again she did that for a little bit and then at some point shortly after 4 p.m casey left the house again and she made four calls to her mother cindy within the space of two minutes this is also important because jose baez and casey claim that these calls were made because Casey was calling her mother to tell her what had happened. And I mean, two, four calls within two minutes. That does seem like Casey had something she wanted to tell Cindy, especially after a huge fight where

they're probably not talking. Yeah. Calls her four times. Exactly. Why would she call if it wasn't an emergency after they had had that fight the night before but i don't know man i don't know so you know the the computer activity when she got home so so casey comes home after george calls her obviously only those two know what happened on that phone call do we know what happened as far as the computer activity search history like it was just regular you know social media stuff talking to people yeah nothing nothing like crazy nothing out of the ordinary from her. Isn't that odd though as well? Like if we're to believe that at that point,

her daughter's gone, you know, her daughter's deceased. She knows that she's no longer alive. And I'm going to go hop on the internet, do some searching. Derek, her daughter was gone. Well, her daughter was gone for 30 days and she was out partying at nightclubs. And not one person besides a very few amount of people who were with her, like her boyfriend, Tony would claim he would see her.

He saw her crying at night once. Like that's the only, only like sign that she's upset about anything during that entire month. So I think, you know, like what her friend said, remember her friend, Michelle said she had the ability to press that button and turn it off. And I think that she, she literally was so good at disassociating and, you know, some might call it compartmentalizing, that she just acted like it didn't happen so she could go on normally because that's, you know, whether or not she had done something to Kaylee herself or Kaylee had died in the pool and her father helped to cover it up,

that's traumatic either way, right? Like you're still, your daughter's gone one way or the other. You're going to be acting some sort of way. But Casey, either way this happened, she was completely cool as a cucumber, as you would say, for the next month. It also could be in that moment. I'm just talking about that day. It could also have been that George on the phone said to her,

go home, use the computer, like do something that can be can be checked. Like you just saying you're in the home hanging out. They can't check that. But computer history, phone history. Those are things are going to look so funny. I can hear George on the phone calling Casey and he's like, Casey. She's like, yeah. He's like, this is cop dad, cop dad right now.

OK, I need you to do this because this is what they're going to be looking for. You know, because he was a police officer and he would go into that mode, right? He would know. It just, again, it's odd. Okay. Because where to, oh, I guess that would kind of line up. I'm sorry. I'm speaking out loud here.

Our listeners are probably like, what are you doing? But he was also Googling or searching, whatever it was. I say Google, that's our word now, but he was also searching about a possible suicide. So is it unrelated? Or was he like, after I do this, after I've just buried my granddaughter, I'm going to kill myself? That's what Jose Baez thinks. Okay. So I'm not off the beat. Okay. I'm just, again, I got to- Jose Baez thinks he was searching that stuff because he was just like, he couldn't even, you know? that at 150. It's about an hour after Casey had left. So I do know some of this case. I know where Kaylee was eventually found. We'll get there, but it's not far from the house. So he could go there

and be back in time to search that if he's now thinking like, this is, I no longer want to be here after that. This is the, okay. All right. Well, okay. I'm with you so far. All right. So I apologize for the rambling. Oh, you're fine. It's good to think it out because it is very complicated. Like when something's not so cut and dry and black and white and you're like, oh, this may be something completely different than I originally thought. There's a lot that's like your brain feels like it's moving inside your head almost. Yeah, I'm with you. So after Casey calls her mother four times in two minutes, her cell phone traveled north and she called her boyfriend, Tony Lazaro at 419 p.m. This call only lasted one minute. Now, when you see something last one minute on cell phone records, that does not mean that the call was a minute. It was probably under a minute,

like 34 seconds or 52 seconds. But when cell phone companies bill, they bill by the minute, so they don't ever put like one minute and 52 seconds. They usually just put one minute if it's under a minute, if that makes sense. Right. So this could have been a call that went to voicemail. It could have been a call that wasn't answered, etc. Two minutes after that, she called Jesse Grund again. This call only lasted for one minute. And then there were no calls from Casey Anthony or to Casey Anthony until 5.57 p.m. when she called her boyfriend Tony Lozaro's apartment. Now, at 8 p.m., both Casey and Tony were seen on surveillance at the Orange County Blockbuster store. There's no sign of Kaylee. Tony and Casey rented two movies, Untraceable. This is a movie

about a serial killer who abducts victims and puts them into like elaborate death traps and also Jumper. And this is a movie about a man who can jump through time and space and uses his ability to rob banks around the world. So what's important to understand here is that from the time George Anthony kisses Kaylee goodbye and the time that Casey is seen at Blockbuster with Tony Lazaro, something happened to Kaylee because she was not with Casey when Casey showed up at Tony's house. Casey said that she was with the nanny. Then the nanny doesn't exist, right? So Kaylee's not with the nanny. Tony and Casey spent the night together at his apartment. Kaylee's not there. And then the next day, he skipped classes to spend the day with his girlfriend, Casey. Casey herself did make a brief visit to her parents' home on Tuesday, June 17th, though, according to her neighbor, Brian Berner,

and her cell phone records. So on this day, Tuesday, while Cindy and George were both at work, Casey's phone pinged off a cell phone tower near the house at around 2.30 p.m. Brian Berner, that's the neighbor, he said he saw Casey back her Pontiac Sunfire into the garage. She seemed to be alone, but her backing into the garage was unusual because she'd always pull straight into the driveway. That's what Brian Berner said. Casey wasn't there long, and he saw her leave shortly after she arrived. But not long after, at 4 p.m., Casey's phone pinged at a cell phone tower southwest of the Hope Spring Drive house. This location of the ping was Lee Vista Boulevard and South Goldenrod. And this is important because

this is very close to the area where Kaylee's body would later be found. Now, an hour and 20 minutes later, Casey's phone pinged at a tower near Blanchard Park in Goldenrod, so kind of still close to this area. Then there's no activity on Casey's phone between 5.23 and 8.23 p.m. No pings, no texts in or out, no calls in or out. To me, that most likely means that Casey's cell phone was turned off completely. And this phone does not start transmitting again until 8.23 p.m. And when it was turned back on, Casey's location was Tony Lazzaro's apartment. Earlier that afternoon, Casey had also visited a friend of hers, a man named Chris Stutz. Chris would later tell the police that he and Casey had dated for a bit, but the last time he had seen her was around Mother's

Day, May 17th at his parents' house. He said that Casey and Kaylee spent the night there, but when Casey showed up on June 17th, she did not have Kaylee with her, and she was also not driving her white Pontiac Sunfire. She was driving her boyfriend Tony's vehicle, which was a dark-colored Jeep Cherokee with New York license plates. Chris said that Casey had just stopped over to say hello, and she didn't say where Kaylee was, nor did he ask. Chris said that Casey's demeanor was mostly positive, but she was upset about her parents, and she told Chris that they were getting a divorce because her father was cheating on her mother. Casey said she was going to have to find someplace to live, and she told Chris she was planning on buying a house for $250,000. So do you want to talk about that

timeline for a minute? There's so much there. I mean, we can go back. I think it's more just to absorb what it is and then we can kind of dissect it at the end. But there's a couple things, writing it down here, where I look at it and you think one thing and then this timeline, these pings make you think another. Because if you're to believe that the first thing we said, as far as George taking care of it, quote unquote, you know, he would have disposed of Kaylee at this area. And maybe later George told her what he had done and she went over to the area to see it for herself. But there's also the other theory, which is that this was all done by her. And so let's play that scenario out, right?

Like, let's say Kaylee was in the car. Okay. This was intentional. Kaylee was killed by her mother, Casey. Okay. So she does something to her in that period of time. Okay. Then she makes the family still believe that Kaylee's with zanny right she spends the night at at tony's house the next day she comes home to grab some items she backs the car in and i don't

know if you're getting into it but it's okay if i talk about coffin flies here or no yeah sure okay so i won't go too much into it because i know it's gonna be part of the trial and all that stuff but there was a cadaver dog that you know hit on hit on Casey's car later, right? The Pontiac Sunfire that hit on it later that there had been, you know, this dog is specifically for cadavers and it did hit on the trunk that there might have been something in there at one point that would be a dead body. In addition to that, there was also a coffin fly larvae found in the back of the trunk as well. And this is not normal for a car because these coffinflies are specific with rotting flesh. So these are all things that would suggest that Kaylee was in the back of Casey's car at some point. The question that I'm at right now, and my head's kind of all over the place is, you know, is it scenario number one where,

you know, George took her car and, you know, drove over there and there. And maybe, I don't know how Casey would have gotten around because she had taken George's car for a little bit. My head's spinning right now. Well, she had Tony's truck later on. Later on. But how about at the time when she was out driving around talking to friends, three different friends? We don't know.

We don't know. We don't know, right? And I mean, she could have been in George's car. He might have taken hers. I don't know why he would do that. I'm just, again, trying to get into the mind of some people that don't really know or respect for that matter. So both scenarios are still on the table. I think this is why there are a lot of people that believe maybe Casey did this on her own by herself. Some of these behaviors that you're talking about here backed backed up by, again, pings that cannot really be

altered, are suggestive of that. A lot of information to consume. I definitely am going to have to sleep on this one for sure. So I'm kind of trying to figure out, because we would really like to know what happened and when did it happen. And if you remember, I don't know, because this is a small little piece of evidence from the trial but they said that there was chemical evidence in the trunk of of casey's sunfire that showed a decomposing body had been in there for for up to two and a half days that's right and when all those pings were happening that was tuesday june 17th and so that would be you know about a day and a half.

Yeah, it would line up. I mean, again, it's not an exact science. I mean, I know it is a science, but there is a margin of error for sure. The fact that they were there is not something you would normally... Yeah, a trunk is usually dirty, but you're not finding fly larvae in there. That's not how it goes. Again, it's from decomposing or rotting skin. The next day on Wednesday, June 18th, Casey returned to her parents' house when they were at work around 1.30 p.m. She backed her car into the garage again, and then she asked the neighbor, Brian Berner, if she could borrow a shovel to dig up a bamboo root. Brian said she took the shovel. She returned it about an hour later. She did not appear to be muddy or sweaty.

She was in a normal mood. She didn't seem upset or stressed out about anything. Once again, Casey's cell phone pinged at or near her parents' house until 3.30 p.m., and then there was 28 minutes of cell phone silence before it popped back on, pinging by the Econ Trail located south of Lake Underhill. At this point, Kaylee Anthony had not been seen by anyone for over 48 hours, but plenty of people were seeing Casey, except for her parents, who she seemed to be going to great lengths to avoid. On Thursday, June 19th, Casey

contacted a friend of hers named Matthew Crisp. Matthew and Casey had gone to high school together and he was working as a real estate agent. Casey got in touch with him to let him know that her boyfriend Tony's lease was coming to an end, and Tony was looking for a new apartment. Matthew told them to come by his office and he would show them some apartments, but before getting off the phone, Casey told Matthew to go to Fusion the following night. But Matthew said no. Casey also touched base with her friend Troy Brown. She sent him a message on Facebook telling

him that he and their friends should all go to Fusion the next night because she hasn't seen them in ages and she would be there all night until 2 a.m. So in the days following her daughter's disappearance, no one sees Kaylee. This is what Casey is doing. This is what she's busying herself with. She's planning fun-filled evenings at nightclubs and telling everyone that her parents were getting divorced because of her father's infidelity, which I'm not sure how true it is. But once again, there is some scandal here. There's some possible truth to this because a woman will come out later and be brought into the trial who claims she was having an affair with George Anthony. Jesus, not a surprise. I mean, not a surprise at all.

Yeah, she definitely did that. He says she's lying, but she definitely did that. And, you know, while I'm open-minded, I do have to ask the question of why, right? Like at this point, even if Casey had dropped Kaylee off with a nanny, you would think she'd be freaking out that this nanny wasn't giving her child back to her.

Like, where's my daughter? You know, the nanny won't give her back. You her. Like, where's my daughter? You know, the nanny won't give her back. You got to call the police at some point. It's been several days. And we'll see in the next part of the series that Casey claims she was desperately trying to locate her daughter and get her back home during this time. But there's no evidence of that in her cell phone or social media records. It's also really hard to see where she would have brought Kaylee or when she would have done it since her movements on the 16th show that she stayed pretty close to home until finally going to her boyfriend's apartment later that night without Kaylee. So this is my theory based

on the timeline. If Casey killed Kaylee, if she was the one who did it, I think by the time she showed up at Tony Lazzaro's apartment that night right before they went to Blockbuster, Kaylee, if she was the one who did it. I think by the time she showed up at Tony Lazaro's apartment that night, right before they went to Blockbuster, Kaylee's already dead. And I think she's in the trunk of the car. So the next day, Casey's driving all over. She's shutting off her phone so that it's not pinging for several hours. And I think that she probably brought the body out into the forest, the woods, but remembered where she had left left it because then she goes and she borrows a shovel from her neighbor to dig up a bamboo root. And I can tell you that I don't I don't think I don't think Casey Anthony was an avid gardener or a person who worked outside. She's not just going to come to her parents house and help them out with landscaping. So the shovel thing is definitely suspicious. So does she go

back and dig a hole after where she left the body so that she can hide the body better? She was only gone an hour, not long. I would like to know from Brian Berner, did she get in her car and leave? Did she walk there? Because the place where Casey ended up being found it like you said it's not far from that house you could have walked we're gonna throw the map up for everyone on youtube john multiple times throughout this whole thing so if you get you know you're gonna see it now and also when we were mentioning it before the map's up there you can see it's it's very close it's in walking distance for sure yeah i think everything you said yeah it makes a lot of sense well but that's like was was she was was kaylee buried when she was found because i don't believe she was that's

what i was going to say to you i believe that that's how they found her because it was a utilities worker or something like that yeah the body it was it was you could see it from it wasn't that far off the road oh i remember what happened now it was there was flooding it was something to do with uh remember there was like there was a hurricane or something, hurricane winds, and it rained, and it rained a lot. And I think that uncovered the skeletal remains enough for them to be seen. She wasn't in a deep grave, though. No, definitely not. Well, that's because Casey didn't come back sweaty or muddy, remember? She half-assed Doug the Grave. She can't even do anything right at this point. She's just so

freaking lazy. You do something like this and you don't even want to get sweaty or dirty when you're trying to cover up your crime. That's how completely unmotivated and how completely uninvested she was in everything that she did. It was just like, what's the least amount of work I can do for this? When I'm looking at a case, I always try to look for something that may seem trivial, but could be an indicator of one way or another. Me too. And a lot of times it's insignificant. And for me, everything you said today, there's a lot of things that are really important. important, but the statement that George made to police that Kaylee approached him and told him

that she was going to Zanny's, to me, that is currently swaying me slightly to the idea that Casey, I don't know if she intentionally did it or not, but Casey was the sole participant in Kaylee's death and ultimate disappearance and the hiding of her body. Why do I say that? But you're going to you get an asterisk next to that because you don't know if you can believe George Anthony. Well, hear me out. This is why I say that. one sentence that George was involved in this. And as a police officer, he prepared so well for this where it's like, Hey, let's make phone calls. Let's, you know, do everything we got to do, use the computer, all that. Right. You have to also believe that he would come up with a better

statement to police to support what Kaylee said before she left. Right. Like he wouldn't go with the idea of this fictitious nanny who he had never even met maybe he thought the nanny was real man well he could have thought she was real but i think at that point if he's like hey we need to work up a story here and you're gonna have dropped her off at the nannies you would think at that point casey might have said the nanny doesn't exist or something like that. I mean, maybe she wouldn't have, maybe she'd still write it out, but I would think that to me sounds like someone who's not in on the secret.

Yeah. That's what I'm getting at. It sounds to me like someone who doesn't actually know the full story. And that's why they're telling that to police, because if they did, you would think based on his history, he'd be better prepared. That, to me, slightly just sways me one end of the pendulum a little bit more towards maybe he wasn't involved.

Well, it also matters when he said it, right? Like, was it in his initial report to the police? And we're going to get into that next time. Or did this come out, you know, maybe later after she'd already tried to point the finger at him? And so now he's trying to point the finger at her. No, I didn't do anything. In fact, Kaylee told me she was going to see Zanny. Like, where'd she get that from?

You know, I don't think he's that smart, to be honest. So I'm kind of I'm on the same page with you. But you're telling me that at court, the defense was that this was an accidental drowning. That's that's that. Yeah, that's what Jose and Casey said. And they and they're they're not saying, you know, Casey ever dropped her off with this zany or anything like that. They're saying, hey, listen, this happened earlier in the day. And then my father and I got together and we kind of planned this out.

We orchestrated this. But Casey didn't have anything to do with the disposal of Kaylee's body. It was George, George, George. And so all this other stuff that we have, this tangible evidence as far as timelines and putting her in the area of where Kaylee was eventually found, that's just coincidence. Check this out, right? Because once again, the time of when they brought this up was trial. For that entire time that Casey's being questioned by the police and her parents, she keeps saying, no, I brought I brought her to Sawgrass Apartments like I brought her to Zanny the Nanny for that whole time, even after she got arrested. She stuck to that story for like,

I mean, I want to say over a year at this point. And then finally, the trial hits. The prosecution says their piece, you know, it goes and then it's defense turn and the defense comes up and there's this this theory, this thing that happened that we've never heard of before ever, because for the whole time, Casey's been saying that Zanny the nanny has Kaylee. So could it also be that that was just a convenient story to tell the jury? I mean, turns out it worked, right? It caused enough reasonable doubt to have them vote for her to not be guilty. Let me throw this at you and see if you can poke a hole in it, okay? So what if everything's true up to the point where Kaylee leaves and says if you can poke a hole in it okay so what if everything's

true up to the point where kaylee leaves and says you know i'm going to see zanny right casey's out on the road she calls three people jesse does hear kaylee in the background okay casey gets home around 3 p.m could have been slightly before that because obviously george has already gone at that point he has to be at work for three he calls her at three but she could have been slightly before that because obviously George is already gone at that point. He has to be at work for three. He calls her. But she could have been home, let's say, even 245, 240. Right. Casey and Kaylee are home.

Casey's got her mind on a she's doing she's on the Internet. You said she was doing some computer stuff when she got back home. They get home. Kaylee says, Mommy, I want to go in the pool. She goes in the pool. Okay. They get home. Kaylee says, mommy, I want to go in the pool. She goes in the pool. Okay. Drowns. Casey realizes what happens and calls her mom four times in two minutes.

Like frantic. What do I do? What do I do? And that's when she realizes she has to get out of the house because now she's screwed. She puts Kaylee in the car, not knowing what she's going to do yet. And drives over to, she calls Tony calls Jesse. No answer.

Then later that night she goes and sees Tony. She's at blockbuster. But this whole time, like you're saying, Kaylee's already in the car. Yeah. Kaylee's already in the back of her trunk. And so what I'm saying here is both stories could be true where essentially

she didn't intentionally kill her. And yet she is the sole person responsible for her death and her the cover-up of her body that's because the hang-up i keep getting on is if we're to believe it was intentional what did what did and she was already dead by the time she got back home at three where the hell did she go what did she do to kaylee to cause her death in that short period of time i don't see see it. It has to be at the house. But if Kaylee drowned, why was there tape on her mouth? Well, I think that to me is a big, and we've talked about that on Dr. Oz and all those things.

That is a question. Could it have been done so that when the body was eventually found, if it was, it would throw law enforcement off. I don't know. I don't know. But that's what do you think about that scenario that I just laid out? I think it's completely possible. In fact, I would even say that if this was done maliciously, if Kaylee was killed by Casey on purpose, it most likely would have been done at home as well. You know, a place where- But why? What's the why?

Why? Privacy. You know, no one sees you. No, but why would she do it? That's what I'm trying to get to. What's the reason in that moment? There's a fight the night before. I'm trying to get to the motive. I don't know. I don't know. There really isn't one. That's the point. There really isn't one. There'd be, oh, she wanted to keep her from Cindy because Cindy had threatened to take her. That doesn't make sense. That's a theory. But a lot of people also think that, and I think this was the prosecution's theory, was that she just was tired of being a mom and she wanted to go out and have fun and do her thing and spend her weekends out. And this was becoming too much of a burden. I know it just doesn't seem like enough. After Cindy just said, I'll keep her for you. I'll take her for you. That doesn't, that doesn't, even for Casey, that doesn't jive with me. Even for Casey, you have an out. It's

not like she's like alone in an apartment with her daughter and nobody's helping her. Like Cindy literally wants to take Kaylee from her. So at this point, instead of letting Cindy have her, she decides, I will say this, I'm fairly confident, unless you have some aces up your sleeve, that it doesn't to me fit that this was intentional, that this was intentionally done. The only thing that fits to make it look intentional is the fact that this bitch went for 30 days smiling, laughing, shaking her ass on the bar while knowing her daughter was dead. And I cannot fathom in my mind how any human being could do that. You just spent three parts.

This is our third part. I know. You just spent three parts telling us about how shitty of a person she is. I think it's completely believable. She's a shitty person, man. But I would love to sit down with Casey Anthony and look at her in her face and say, listen, off the record, I swear to God, I will never tell a single soul, but just tell me one true thing. What happened, man? What happened? If it was an accident, tell me. I swear to God, I will take it to my grave, but I need to know. Those, I talked earlier about lanes, about roads and going down different things and kind of exploring them until you find something that prevents that from being truth. The scenario that I just laid out to you where it could have

been a situation where she got back around quarter to three. She's in the pool. She's on her computer, not paying attention to Kaylee. It would only take a minute. It only takes a minute or two for this to happen, right? Right? Seconds. And she finds out. And then, and then you talk about this thing, right? We talk about why this sense of urgency to call Cindy, who was just trying to choke you the night before. That would be a reason. That would be a reason to call her frantically. What do I do? And then when she doesn't get the call, she thinks, you know, when she doesn't pick up, she's realizing they're going to blame this on me. I'm going to go to jail for this. I got to think fast. And she puts Kaylee in the car and she goes in. But again, just because

we didn't see or anybody confirmed that she backed her car in that day doesn't mean it didn't happen before she went out to Tony's. You know what I mean? We have a neighbor confirming it days later, but it doesn't mean she didn't back her car in that day as well. And again, that's science, by the way. That's science with the coffin flies and all these different things that we have, the cadaver dog. These are things that can be substantiated. I mean, listen, that duct tape was wrapped around Kaylee's face and head and head three times. So are you saying that it was put there by Casey or George or whoever to make it look like Kaylee had gotten kidnapped by the nanny and then the nanny drove her back to Casey's

neighborhood and dropped her off? I think at that point, Casey is realizing that she told the dad she was going to drop Kaylee off at Zanny. So she's thinking, how do I get myself out of this? And maybe at that point, she thought it would be a good idea to say, oh, she was kidnapped by the Zanny. And then the body would be found later. She obviously realized before court, whether it was Baez or whatever, said that ain't going to work. You're pinging all over the place.

It ain't going to work. You can't go that route. Oh, for sure. I think that's exactly what happened. Yeah. But at the time when she's like, what do I do? How do I get out of this? Everyone thinks that she's at Zanny's. Okay. I'm going to throw tape around her head. I'm going to throw her in the, in, in the area where somebody may find her eventually. But at that point, if they do, it's going to look like she was taken and

then disposed of later. But again, as, as her body was found, as she gets into a closed door meeting with bias, he goes, if you go that route, you're going to be found. No, he says in his book, he literally says to her that at one point he sat down with her and he said, I don't want to hear this Zanny's name anymore. Yeah, don't do it. He said, she may be real, whatever, but it's irrelevant at this point. It's not going to save us and I don't want to hear you even say her name anymore. And I think at that point in that meeting, he was like, we got to come up with a better story. So what have you got? So they're sitting in the room, right? Me and're casey i'm jose right jose i swear i swear it was this woman zanny and he goes cut the shit stop that might have been what you thought

you were going to go with it's not going to work i'll tell you right now what what actually happened she drowned in the pool whatever okay that's. You got to tell someone the truth. That makes more sense than you saying this fictitious person that no one has ever seen. You dropped Kaylee off there and then that was it. You had been trying to get her back. I think Casey was going to even try to lie to her lawyers to convince them that that's what happened as well. A hundred million percent. And they have their own investigators.

They have their own investigators. But in the context of what you and I are talking about right now why why the duct tape because when this initially happened within the first day or two that was the scenario that casey had conjured up in her own head that was gonna work but obviously that was nipped in the butt later by her attorneys but yeah in that, why the duct tape? That would be an explanation for it. She was trying to set up a scenario where Kaylee was kidnapped by this nanny and later found if she was. Well, let me ask you a question, because this is so sad. When they found Kaylee, they said that that her you know, she was obviously she was obviously very decomposed, but there was still hair.

Hair stuck in the duct tape. Couldn't they have tested that hair for chlorine and that would tell them if she had recently been in a pool? It's a great question. I don't know. I don't know if chlorine would have dissipated over that period of time based on the elements. I mean, chlorine, I know I'm just speaking from a layman's perspective. When I put it in my hot tub, if I don't put more in in about a week or so, there's no sign of chlorine in the water.

That's because the hot tub's hot. But what was the weather like for that 30 days? Very. I mean, it's Florida. It's humid. It's hot. Yeah. But I don't know if it stays in hair, you know, like in the follicle kind of.

I don't know. I don't know. And then you could also make the argument like if they found chlorine in there, could Kay have been in the pool the day before or they you know like yeah there's a pool there yeah for sure i would just like to know about the chlorine like because there's no evidence that she drowned that's the point there's no possible way if she had been found sooner we might have known because you'd have water in her lungs etc things like that so that was the disadvantage here when you don't have a cause or manner of death. You don't. So really fascinating stuff. I definitely want to hear from you guys. I do. This is a definitely a different episode

than we usually do. Some of you may hate it. Some of you may love it. This is a good episode as far as how we're covering it, but there's a lot of like just kind of, you know, group think going on as we're recording this. This is stuff like Stephanie and I talk a lot of the times when we're not recording. So you're just kind of getting the curtain pulled back a little bit here, but I think it, I'm not going to have any of it cut out. I think it all needs to be in there. So weigh in, in the comments, we threw a lot at you really think about it, write down what you're thinking at this point. There's, there's a couple of different ways you can go with it. And based on the evidence out by stephanie you could probably make both theories fit pretty well but i do think if you consider my theory at this point it would actually align with everything that happened as far as why and

when it happened you know as far as her making those frantic calls at three you know it's not a lot of time between george leaving and her there, but we all know it wouldn't take long for this to happen and for Kaylee to decide to cover it up. And I will say the fact that George allegedly, according to Casey, covered up this whole situation, but then she's getting a shovel a day later and going over to that area completely contradicts it, completely contradicts the idea that quote unquote, George was handling this. And yet she's going over there with a shovel. It just, it really doesn't align. It doesn't align. And for me not to believe, or for us not to believe Casey, when she says this happened earlier in the day and my dad covered it up, she's obviously not

a credible source. That's been proven over time and time again. So when we're, when we're making our decisions, the one thing I'm not doing is basing my opinion on anything that Casey has told us. No, there is no factor of this. My opinion that comes from Casey statements. I'm going off her activity when she got home, the phone call, she made things that can be substantiated, not what she said. And you know, that's kind of where I am right now as we, as we can be substantiated, not what she said. And, you know, that's kind of where I am right now as we end part three.

Yeah, I agree. I think when we go over, especially next part, because that's when the car evidence comes in and that's when a lot of this physical evidence comes in, we're going to have more to add to our cumulative knowledge base. And hopefully we'll be able to sort of hone down these theories and fine tune them a little bit more. Yeah. And if there's something that pops up where my accidental death cover up by Casey doesn't hold true anymore, I'll say it. But there's nothing here yet that would suggest it, especially, you know, I just can't find a moment. So you think it was accidental, no involvement george anthony because i i even look at it and i say like cindy

anthony couldn't have possibly known because cindy anthony's the one that called the police wasn't home and she's the one that called the police so if like cindy anthony knew what had happened you'd think that neither george or cindy would have gone to the police they would have tried to like let it ride for as long as possible and i I just don't know if Cindy would have covered for... I don't know. I don't know. I'm saying because I truly don't know. I don't think so, man. Not if it was George, especially. That would have solved so many of Cindy's problems. And she could just be like, George, you committed a crime? Oh, snap. I guess you don't get half of everything. You're going to be in prison and I'll be free of you.

I think Kaylee, at this point, more than likely, something happened at the house. I'm going with the pool because that's the most likely scenario where it can happen fast. And the fact that we have evidence that she was distracted. She can't be watching Kaylee and on the computer, right? She was on the computer doing anything. That's why I asked you, what was she doing? If she's in another room or whatever, was it a laptop? Was it a desktop? Was it a desktop?

It was a desktop. It was a desktop. There you go. So if Kaylee's out by the pool or playing outside, falls in, Casey comes out moments later, realizes it's only, again, only takes a couple minutes.

Moments later. That bitch probably came out an hour later. That too? Well, we know that she made the calls right around three o'clock though, right? The frantic calls were right around three as well i would love to know the exact time no the call from george was 304 what was the call the two the four calls in two minutes when was that those were

after four after four there you go after 4 p.m and then she left around 4 19 she was on the road calls to tony There you go. Plenty of time. So we're talking she had been home for almost an hour before making those calls to Cindy. Again, keep in mind a woman who the night before had attempted to choke her and threatened to take her child from her. I don't think she'd be calling her to say, how you doing while she's at work. Just my opinion.

But it would make sense based on the I love going with the pings because pings I've used them many times in many cases. They don't lie. They don't lie for anybody. And so the fact that I've said this before, we said it on Taylor Wright's case, although it's not exact, it will give you a general idea. We talked about the positioning of the set of the towers and how it would bounce off certain towers.

If it were closer to her home, it might have been another tower in that area. I'm sure it's a residential area. I'm sure there were a lot of towers. It might have showed if they're smart, and I'm hoping they are, law enforcement would have put one of their phones at Casey's house and seen what it looked like when it pinged off the towers at Casey's house, as opposed to if they were at the crime scene where the body was left. They said that on the day, June 16th, when she first left the house, her phone pinged off the same three towers that she would have pinged off if she was at home. But they didn't. No, they did. Okay. So you're saying the day she left, they pinged off the same towers, but you're saying

later though, was she not found more southwest? The next day, remember? Correct. So what I'm saying is it's not as if she was at the location where Kaylee was found, she would have been off the same three towers. So she was not home because they give us specific towers in specific locations instead of saying these are the same three towers that she would have pinged off if she was home. But we talked about this on Taylor, right? There's different like angles on the tower. Yeah. Like there's different, I want to say, radio towers on top of it. They face like different directions.

Right. There's like six of them. Yeah. They're directional antennas. That's what they are. Antennas. How could I not think of that word for three episodes? So on the towers themselves, there's multiple antennas.

I want to say six or seven. And if they're constantly pinging her at home at, now here multiple antennas. I want to say six or seven. And if they're constantly pinging her at home at, now here's three towers. It could have been, okay, when she's at her address, 99.9% of the time, it pings off tower one, antenna two, tower two, antenna two, and tower three, antenna two. However, at this time, it pinged off antenna four, antenna six, and antenna five, only for that time period. So it's directional. And so it's not an exact location, but it would show that her phone is in a different area of that triangle than it normally is when she's at home. I know that's probably completely confusing, but I tried. I apologize. But it would show a difference if

there's a deviation and they can use a control, right? They can go back and recreate it where, okay, if we have a phone sitting at Casey's house, this is exactly how it should look. If you have a phone sitting at the area where Kaylee was found, this is how it would look. And based on what you're telling me, it sounds like they were able to show a difference between the two. So that's what I'm going with. They were able to show through maybe a recreation that the pinging of her phone on those specific times and those specific dates were different than if she was at the house though. Yes. Yeah, I'm going to look into that more actually, because I'm sure they went into more detail in the trial and I'll pull up that day where they talk about the cell phone pings and see

if we can find out if they triangulated them and kind of narrowed them down more. Yeah. It could be as minimal as the antennas. I would even say that maybe it was a different tower that was really definitive, but we'll see. But that's my guess. For them to be able to say she was more Southwest, Her signal was pinging off a different antenna on that tower. It could have been the opposite side of the tower, right?

Where it's pinging off the opposite end of the antenna where it was North facing all day while she was at the house. And now she's pinging off the South facing. Yes, that's important. So same tower, different antenna, big difference. Is that, am I, you could tell me if I'm talking crazy right now, because if you're not following me, they're not going to follow me. I'm following you.

I just wish I had the answer. Yeah, it is directional. Understand that. It is directional, and bouncing off antenna four or antenna three does indicate a different location of that phone. And the experts can tell you that within seconds. So good stuff. I mean, we went long tonight. We weren't really long. We're not going to cut a lot of this out. Maybe John might clean

it up a little bit, but you're in our heads. So tell us what you think. Maybe you completely disagree. Maybe you agree. I don't know. We'll see. Yeah. And at the beginning of the next episode, I'm going to go over the cell phone movements again in a more coherent version just to catch up because it was a lot. But I will take two minutes at the beginning of the next episode to kind of recap. Yeah, we're going to need to. Yeah, we'll do that. There's a lot. No, I think we're good. Let's say that we will see you guys all again next week. Hopefully nothing goes wrong until then. Feels like everything's going wrong this week.

Well, you're definitely hearing us. If you're listening to this, like I said, Christmas Eve right now, enjoy Christmas tomorrow. If you're listening to this, we hope everyone has a good holiday. And if you're watching this on YouTube, we hope you had a,

and we're out, like you said, we're out on Wednesday. Hopefully you had a good Christmas. I hope we had a good Christmas. I hope my Christmas present would be that this doesn't you know get a shadow ban by youtube dude well you're not getting what you want for christmas okay because youtube is is after us big time they're not they're definitely not treating us well for christmas right now i mean this is damn have a heart you believe it at the holidays youtube come on susan yeah freaking mean, this is damn, have a heart, YouTube. Can you believe it? At the holidays, YouTube? Come on, Susan.

Yeah, freaking Susan. This is the season, YouTube. This is the season for loving your heart. All you have is hate for Cry Weekly. Did they not see the tree when they were reviewing the video?

I think they liked your wooden tree better. For real, man. No, this is a great episode. Good job with the stuff. I mean, it's so much in here, but I think it's a really visual timeline

that I think everyone can go back and kind of check out as we, until next yeah well until next week guys thank you so much for being here we will see you very soon and goodbye merry christmas