Crime Weekly - S1 Ep58: Caylee Anthony: Did the Parents Know? (Part 4)

Episode Date: December 31, 2021

Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Agatha Christie once said that a mothers love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity, it dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path. Most parents feel that their main job is to protect their children from the terrors of the world, and they take this job very seriously, so when we hear of a child that seemingly was tossed to the side and forgotten, we have a very negative and visceral reaction. After all, children are the future, and they deserve a fighting chance. Two year old Caylee Marie Anthony had this chance stolen from her, she had her life stolen from her, and to this day we still don’t understand why. Caylee disappeared on June 16th, 2008, and it would take six months for the world to find out what had happened to her. Her skeletal remains were found inside a laundry bag, discarded in a wooded area. There was evidence that little Caylee’s mouth had been duct taped at the time of her death, and all eyes were on her young mother, Casey Anthony, who had failed to report the toddler missing for over a month, and during this time, Casey was seen at nightclubs and bars, having the time of her life.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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apply. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. Today, we are jumping into the fourth part of the Kaylee Anthony series. Now, in the last, the last what? I would say 10 to 15% of the last episode, we kind of went over Casey's journey as she left her house on June 16th, where she went, cell phone pings and things like that. And both Derek and I, when we finished recording that episode, we were like, oh, is this more in-depth than we kind of gave it credit for? And I wanted to kind of go over in a quick five-minute refresher the cell phoneings, so that we can be more clear about the movements of Casey Anthony on June 16th, 2008, which was the last time anyone saw two-year-old Kaylee Anthony.

Because I think that is a very, you know, it's a linchpin in this investigation. Like, where did Casey go? What did she do? Who did she call? Where was she? Things like that. Do you agree? Yeah, not only the pings, but I, again, we stayed on for a while after we were done recording. And you had found something that even we were thinking, you know, in four minutes, she made multiple phone calls or in two minutes, she made four calls. But it was actually even more than that. And I don't want, you know, we'll get there when we get it. But I was saying that it kind of looked like someone was frantic and looking for someone to help. And that was based on just the four calls in two minutes that went unanswered.

But in fact, it wasn't just even to her mom. So it almost like drove home the point even further that there was something at that moment that she really needed to talk to someone, even though she had this big blowout with her mother the night before. So we'll get there. But it kind of reemphasized what we were trying to say or piece together as a possible point where whatever happened to Kaylee took place. Yes. So on that morning, June 16th, after Casey woke up, she went on the computer to check her Facebook and MySpace accounts. She did this between 7 a.m. and 9 a.m. At 10 a.m., Casey went back on the computer. She uploaded a picture of the interior of Fusion Nightclub to her Photo Bucket account. So Fusion Nightclub is the nightclub that her boyfriend, Anthony Lazzaro, does promotions for in Photo Bucket.

For those of you who don't know, it's kind of like Dropbox or the Dropbox of the 90s. Casey also got a call from her boyfriend, Anthony Lazzaro, around 11.47 a.m. And the couple spoke on the phone for roughly 20 minutes. At 12.50 p.m., George Anthony claims he walked Casey and Kaylee out to Casey's car, and he helped get Kaylee into her car seat. As she was leaving the house, Kaylee was texting with her boyfriend, Tony. George Anthony claims he saw his daughter and granddaughter drive away, but the cell phone pings from Casey's phone show that she didn't go far. Between 1 p.m. and 3 p.m.,

the three cell phone towers that Casey's phone pinged off of were the same three towers that her phone would ping off of if she was at her parents' house. Casey called Tony Lazaro at 1 p.m. and they talked for 15 minutes. In a later police interview, he claimed he didn't exactly remember what they had talked about, but he said that he and Casey had not made plans to hang out that day until he talked to her on the 16th. So basically, this hadn't been something they discussed the night before or the weekend before that they were going to hang out on June 16th. They made those plans when she called him that morning. After getting off the phone with Tony, Casey texted her ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, twice,

once at 1.26 and again at 1.27. Now, this is believed to be the approximate time that George Anthony would have been leaving the house to travel to his job at the Lexus dealership. At 1.44 p.m., Casey called her best friend, Amy Huizenga. They talked for 36 minutes, not about anything specific. Amy said it was just friend stuff. After this, it's believed that Casey actually returned to the house because there was a 30-minute gap in her electronic activity. And at 2.52 p.m., Jessie Grund called Casey, most likely in response to her two texts earlier. At 3.03 p.m., while Casey was still on the phone with Jessie, her father, George Anthony, called her, but she didn't answer this call.

Now, at the time of this call, 3.03 p.m., George Anthony was at work at the Lexus dealership. During this call with Jessie, Jesse Grund claimed that he thought he heard Kaylee's voice or Casey talking to Kaylee. And he also said that Casey told him she was no longer moving into her parents' house with Amy, but now her mother, Cindy, wanted her out of the house and her parents were getting divorced. Now, it was at 1.50 p.m. We talked about previously, someone at the Anthony home was signing into AOL and looking up things like foolproof strangulation. And in the previous episode, we did theorize that this might have been George Anthony because Casey was apparently not home at this time. And she was on the phone with Amy at this time.

And George wouldn't have left for work yet. But when I looked into it, there are sources that say George would have already left for work by this point, that he wasn't home when those Google searches happened. So I Googled how long it would take to get from the Anthony home, which is located at 4937 Hope Spring Drive in Orlando, Florida, to the Lexus dealership where George Anthony was working, located at 305 North Samorin Boulevard in Winter Park, Florida. And according to Google Maps, the longest it would take is about 25 minutes. So I don't know if I buy that he would leave this early to get to work because that's like over half an hour of leeway.

But it was a new job for him. I did find that out. This was only his second day on this job. And we do know he did have a hard time kind of being consistent and keeping jobs. So George may have been taking extra kind of being consistent and keeping jobs. So George may have been taking like extra precautions to get to work really early. You know, if you're not early or late kind of thing. But that still leaves us not really knowing who made those internet searches from the Anthony home on June 16th. But we do believe Casey was home and George

probably wasn't. I'm a little confused because from what you're telling me, Casey was on the phone at 144 with Amy Hazinga, and that was for 36 minutes. Yeah. And are we to believe that during that phone call, she was already home at 144? Yes. Okay. She was already home. So she would be at the house.

As far as George Anthony, again, I can't get into the mind and I don't know the sources that are saying he was already gone. I mean, I don't know how valid they are, but I do agree with you. Let's say he wanted to be early for work. It takes a half hour to get there. Not even 25 minutes. Let's say it takes a half hour. He's got to be there for three, but he wants to be there at least 15 minutes early. Cause you know, that's still very early, but shows initiative. That would mean the earliest, the latest he would leave or the earliest, however you want to look at it, would be 2.15. That would still put him there 15 minutes before his shift is even starting. I mean, even if you want to say a half hour, that still only puts him at 2 o'clock.

So either way, I think there's a real possibility that both of them were there. And I think the digital pings support that as well. So I think it's more than likely if we had George's cell phone coordinates, which I'm sure the police do, they may have both been there at that time. We don't know for certain, so I'm not saying it as if it's fact, but unfortunately we can't base our opinions off of it. But I, what I do think is important, and I said it last episode, and again, I'm not there to speak to Jesse, but it sounds like from the information that you've researched, Jesse is pretty confident that at 2.52, he was on the phone with Casey and it was clear to him

that either he heard Kaylee in the background or Casey talking to Kaylee. I still believe that to Kaylee. I still believe that to be true. Jesse has no incentive to lie. And, and, you know, you had said earlier that if she was still on the road, maybe he heard another, you know, another child as they were, you know, driving around or whatever. If she's at her home at two 52, which nobody's disputing that there's really only one other, there's only one child that Jesse would have heard. And in a home, I think it would be harder to mistaken a noise in the background for being a child when it wasn't, you know, could it have been the TV maybe, but that seems

like a stretch. Yeah. But we are going to get there in the timeline. There's another point much later in the month, maybe even into July where Jesse was on the phone with, with Casey and swears he heard Kaylee. So I don't know how much I believe. Not that he's lying, but I think you kind of hear what you want to hear or you hear what you're accustomed to. And like he said, every time he talked to Casey on the phone, he could hear Kaylee in the background. So it may have been just his

mind playing tricks on him. It's hard to say a reasonable person wouldn't do this because she's not reasonable and we've established that. But I also think that the conversations, the context of like the conversations at this point, I mean, again, with a pathological liar, maybe she's just able to, you know, separate herself

if, you know, Kaylee's already dead at that point. But the conversation she's having about not moving in with Amy at this point and wanting to move out and all these things, like it doesn't sound like someone who's just had something occur that they're trying to kind of

put together and figure out how they're going to cover it up. It seems like she was genuinely more concerned about that. Now, for most people, that would suggest that nothing had happened at that point. But I do have that filter on where it's like we are talking about Casey Anthony here and she has the ability to lie right to your face at any point but i still find it hard to believe that she would be having these types of conversations only hours after killing kaylee but i guess it is definitely possible i i acknowledge that so i also wonder because to me the conversations like you know tony was like well i don't know what we really talked about and amy was like just friend stuff you know stuff like that and it's just like shooting the shit kind of it almost seems like she's trying to build an alibi and i wouldn't

put it i would not put it past her at all to like put up on the computer a home video of like kaylee talking and then get on the phone with jesse you know what i mean like i wouldn't put it past her to do something like that i was seeing not saying it happened. It's a theory, you know, but if he really heard what he thinks he heard, not only then, but even later in that month when we know, you know, even though we don't know, we know, we know Kaylee was gone by then. I agree. Then, then who knows? I wouldn't put anything past Casey. I think it's a great way to say it. You know, and that's why it was important to dive so deep into like the capabilities of Casey as far as her lying. Because now as we're sitting here today saying, is it possible she did these things that are absolutely egregious? Yeah. Yeah, it's possible.

Yeah. It was important to lay down and illustrate the roadmap of her lies and how easily she did it and even how she lied about everything, stupid things, things that didn't seem to matter. She would lie about everything. That way, the whole time, we're not explaining to you, but guys, remember, Casey's a liar because she lied about this, this, and this. We had to lay it all there, all out right away. You definitely established a baseline. Yes. I mean, we drove that point home. There's a baseline there as far as her capabilities and

what is normal for her. So anything that we're saying now is we're kind of like hypothesizing out loud. It's all possible. It's all based on that baseline though. Yeah. Yeah. Because a normal person, any other mother of a missing child, I wouldn't be like, do you think she was playing videos of Kaylee in the background to make people think Kaylee was still alive? It would never cross my mind. With Casey, I absolutely think that she probably could have. Well, I will say this and that's why we can move on from it. It's, we're not certain here, but I have always thought that like there would be something in her timeline, whether it was driving, whether it was pings, whether it was text messages

or phones, that would be out of ordinary for even her. And I do think we're going to bring up some stuff that may be a better indicator of something not going according to plan. Absolutely. So at 3.35 p.m., Casey called her boyfriend Tony, but he didn't pick up. Now, between 3.35 p.m. and 4.10 p.m., there was no activity on Casey's phone. Now, during this time of cell phone silence, a witness claims to have seen Casey and Kaylee at a Walmart in Castleberry, Florida. His name is James Thompson, and he says that he recognized Casey and Kaylee because a week prior they had come into his electronics store that he worked at. And so I guess, you know, they had come into the electronics store. He remembered Kaylee

because she was being good and he was like giving her a beanie baby because she was being good. And he had a very strong recollection of Casey and Kaylee. And he said that at 4 p.m. on Monday, June 16th, he saw Casey and Kaylee leaving the Walmart. And he said Kaylee was a good 10 feet behind Casey and she looked angry. Kaylee did as she had to open a heavy door by herself because her mother had not held the door for her. James Thompson said, quote, she had better things to do. She would almost rather Kaylee not be with her. She was in the way, end quote. So at that time, around 4 p.m., Casey's cell phone appeared to be turned off, but at 5 p.m., it would turn back on. It would put her in the vicinity of

her boyfriend's apartment, Tony Lazzaro, which was less than four miles away from that Walmart. Now, this sighting of Casey and Kaylee was never verified. And by the time Thompson told law enforcement about what he had allegedly seen, it was a year later. The surveillance tapes had obviously been recorded over. But in an Internet thread, James Thompson has defended this by saying, quote, the reason why it took so long to give my statement is because I called to talk to investigators several times and they took my name and number and never called me back. I finally had to take it upon myself to go to my local police department and make my statement and have them deliver to the appropriate person just so I could get this heavy burden off my chest, end quote. happened the way he said. I know I get accused of defending police a lot on this and that's okay

because I do believe most police officers want to do the right thing. And in my personal experience, when you have a little girl like this missing, it's all hands on deck. And I think if there was information that this guy was trying to deliver when Kaylee was still actively missing, they would have been all over it. So I have a hard time believing him, but I do acknowledge that I am former law enforcement and I am blinded by my own biases if you want to go there. But I'm not discrediting Mr. Thompson. He could be telling the truth, but it is hard for me to believe. But that's only because I know how my police department would work and how I would operate.

And I know not every police department is like that. So I don't know how to take this. It would be extremely relevant as we're, you know, right? Like when we're trying to establish what happened to Kaylee and when it happened, you and I are beating ourselves up over this earlier timeline because we don't know if Kaylee was still alive or not. And yet if this was established to Walmart security cameras, we wouldn't be having that discussion. We would know that at least at this point, she was definitively still alive. And yet we never will because of the reasons you just

laid out. Yeah. I don't think it's a real sighting and I'm not saying he's lying or, you know, I don't know. I don't know if he is or not. But I will say that it could have been a different day. He could have mistaken the day. A million things could happen. It kind of brings me back to the Scott Peterson case. Absolutely. to it and things like that. And sometimes when you have an outlier of an eyewitness sighting that doesn't fit in with the rest of the evidence that's presented to you, you have to wonder, because if he saw them at four, and as we talked about last time, Casey shows up at Blockbuster with Tony four hours later, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Now, could it have happened? Could something have happened to Kaylee after four? I suppose so. But was there anything purchased at that Walmart? Do they have

any record of Casey Anthony buying something? There's nothing to support the sighting. So we can't really put it in as a cemented piece of evidence. Yeah. And if she is still alive at that point, why have your phone off at that point? I mean, you're at Walmart. People are going to see you on camera. You can't assume that the people who see you aren't going to report it. So if you're trying to stay off the beaten path, you don't go to a Walmart. So you're going to turn your phone off so people don't know where you are, but you're at a superstore. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Right. So I think there are some holes in it just from looking from the outside in, just on that level. So I have a hard time believing it. So I don't, again, I don't know personally, as I'm writing my notes, you guys do what you want to do. We all got to keep

our open minds and kind of look at this how we want to look at it. But for me, it's not something that I'm hanging my hat on. No, I agree. And like I said, maybe not malicious, but could be, could be just somebody wanting to insert themselves. We've seen that a million times before. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. So at 4.10 p.m., Casey called her father, George, at work. She then called her mother, Cindy, but there was no answer. At 4.13, she called Cindy again. No answer. At 4.14, Casey called George at work again. Then she texted her boyfriend, Tony, at 4.18, and she called him at 4.19. Two minutes later, she called Jesse Grund again, but he did not pick up.

Now, between 4.25 p.m. and 6.31 p.m. there was no activity on Casey's cell phone. It appears to have been turned off. But at 4.25, before the phone shut off, it showed that Casey was in the vicinity of Gentiva, and this was Cindy Anthony's workplace. So it looks like Casey was trying to call Cindy, call her, and she wasn't getting an answer. So she may have driven by where Cindy worked to see if Cindy was at work, but there's no evidence that she went inside and tried to talk to her mother or anything like that. Okay. So this is the point I was talking about. So we have a consistent baseline of how she makes her phone calls, how she conducts herself. We also know pretty certainly that there was a major fight the night before between Cindy

and Casey where Cindy essentially said, you're leaving and I'm keeping your daughter. So they're not on good terms. We all agree to that. This was established by Jesse, who said that Casey told him and also Lee. I mean, so it's pretty substantiated. And between 4.10 and 4.25, which is only a 15 minute period, you have one, two, three, four, and then a text. So four calls, then a text at 418. Then she called him, Jesse, at 419. Two minutes later, she calls him again. So there's like, what, five or six calls there in a matter of 15 minutes and a text message? Don't take my word for it. To her mother, to her father, and to her ex-boyfriend. All people she trusts. Yeah. So did she want to talk to one of them specifically,

or was she just making a bunch of calls to make a bunch of calls to have activity? We don't know. We don't know. My take from this, again, I'm reading it, watching it and hearing it, just like you guys, that sounds to me like there's a sense of urgency. And it's not only about the consistency of the calls and how quickly they're occurring. It's the fact that one, she knows George is at work and this is a new job and she's calling him. She called him two times, at least two times, almost back to back. I would love to know her phone record prior to that, although there wasn't many days. I think you said this was only his second day at

work or third day at work, right? So this was his second day at work, yeah. Second day at work. I think most of us reasonable people would not be calling our loved one the second day at work. That's obviously not a good look, right? So you don't call unless it's an emergency repeatedly. Then she calls a boyfriend who again, she trusts. And then the real kicker for me is she calls Cindy multiple times and is pinged in the general vicinity of where she works. This is the same woman who choked her the night before. Casey doesn't seem like a forgiver to me.

She seems like a grudge holder. And she seems like someone who if in the right situation would give you the silent treatment for an extended period of time, which she's probably done in the past because she's used to getting her way. Yes. Unless she needs something, right? Does she, unless she needs something, she doesn't seem like the type of person who reaches out first as the bigger person. Is that fair to say? Absolutely. So to me,

from my set of eyes here, this is not normal behavior for Casey Anthony. And it suggests to me that this might've been around the time when something occurred. And it does make sense as far as what we said last episode, when we talked about, could this have been a situation where Casey's at home making phone calls on the computer doing things and whether it's accidental or intentional, something happens in that timeframe where now she has to kind of figure out how she's going to get out of this or she wants to talk to someone who could help her figure out what the next best thing to do. I will say that if this was premeditated, I mean, it still could be an accidental drowning that was intentional, made to look accidental, and this could be her building an alibi. But either way, it sounds like something where there was an incident that just occurred, and now she's trying to get in touch with people. That's what it represents to me.

Absolutely. Like I don't call my parents over and over again unless I need to talk to them that moment because nobody does. You know, you leave a message. Hey, mom. Hey, dad. Get back to me when you can. Or hey, Lexus dealership.

My dad's George Anthony. He works security there. Can you just have him call me when he has a chance? You don't keep calling repeatedly unless you have something you need to discuss that moment. That's just my take on it and yours too, I think. Yeah. And then you have, like you said, after that, from before 25 to 630, there's no activity on the device. So that would suggest that it might be turned off. You know what she did as soon as she turned the phone back on? Hit me with it. Well, at 631 PM when the phone goes back on, right? Casey called her mother, Cindy, again. No answer. At 632, she called, again. No answer. At 6.32, she called Cindy again.

No answer. At 6.32, after getting no answer on Cindy's cell, Casey called the home number. So she called the Anthony house. This call disconnected after one minute. So it does appear that somebody was home and answered, but there's no record of what was said. She might have gotten even the answering machine, maybe. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah.

Casey called home again at 7.06 p.m. Now, this call lasted two minutes and disconnected at 7.08 p.m. Did she talk to somebody or did she leave a longer message? I don't know. But it is believed that at this time, Casey did speak to her mother because later Cindy would tell the police, quote, I had gotten a phone call. God, I don't know what point in the evening. And she said she had a lot going on and that she wasn't

going to come home. They were going to crash at Zanny's that night and her and Kaylee were just going to stay at Zanny's, end quote. Yeah. And we know at that time, as we're going to get into that, that's where she's, you know, later that night around, I think it's around eight o'clock, right? She's seen a blockbuster. So to me, this is all in my mind, kind of lining up for an incident occurring around, you know, that four, three 34 o'clock window, her trying to reach out to people, then in her own mind, starting to create the lie, whatever she's going to go with. And now she has to really substantiate that lie. And how does she do that? By calling Cindy and telling her, you know, Kaylee's going to be going to stay at Zanny's and she's going to be staying at Zanny's

because if she's already established in her mind that Zanny's going to be the fall person, she has to create that narrative where that window of opportunity could have occurred for Kaylee to be kidnapped by Zanny. Yeah, but she already told her father that and she had multiple opportunities to leave messages or shoot a text over saying just that and not have to answer questions, which I do feel like somebody avoidant like Casey would prefer to drop a quick text. Hey, mom, I got a lot of my plate tonight. I'm going to be getting home late. We're probably just going to crash at Zanny's and that's it. And then you don't have to answer questions or give specifics or catch yourself up or have your mother get upset. So it seemed like she desperately wanted to talk to her that day, but I don't think that it was just to tell her, we're going to spend the night at Zanny's. So maybe she was calling her all day and she was going to tell her something. By the time Cindy finally got on the phone, maybe Cindy had an attitude and Casey was like, all right, I can't trust you. I can't let you in on this.

And that's that. Yeah, I think that's possible. And I have a question for you, by the way, that I was seeing in the comments and I want to address it because I'm sure you know more about it. But if we play this scenario out where earlier in the day she told a lie and had Kaylee tell a lie to George that she was going to Zanny's. That could have been because she was, as you put out there as a possible scenario, like she was basically having Kaylee create the lie for her homicide, or it could have been something where she was in

pout mode. She was leaving, basically driving around because she was basically just, you know, acting like a brat. Right. And she was trying to create that she had places to go and all these things. And she wanted George to feel bad and call her or whatever. And then maybe she relayed that lie later to Cindy because she knew she already said it to George earlier in the day. So it would line up. However, there were a lot of comments on our YouTube page, and it seems like it's got a little bit of weight to it.

I don't know if it has any facts to support it, but a lot of people were saying, hey, we believe that Zanny was code word for Xanax. Yeah, that's a common theory. Okay. I don't think so. There was one comment that said, oh, what if she wanted to go out that night and she gave her some Xanax, put her in the trunk to relax her or whatever. And I mean, that just seems crazy to me. But I just wanted to address it because, listen, we always ask you guys to weigh in the comments and, you know, might as well throw it out there.

Not saying we believe it, but if that's an opinion that's out there, we might as well address it. No, it's definitely a theory that's out there. I just, the thing is the nanny's name wasn't Zanny. It was Zanata, you know? So, like, I guess Zanny was, like, short and it kind of rhymed with nanny, so maybe Casey thought it would be cute. But it's not as if Casey was a person who used Xanax. It's not as if she had it on hand. And I kind of feel like if you want your kid to fall asleep while you're out partying,

the safer bet is Benadryl that you can buy at Walgreens rather than giving your child prescription anti-anxiety medicine. I feel like even Casey Anthony would find that to be a little egregious. She's two. Kaylee was two. So yeah, maybe giving her a little cup of Benadryl. She has a nap in the apartment or something while you're doing your thing, that makes more sense. I don't see her giving her prescription Xanax. And there's no evidence of that besides the fact that people put two and two together because Xanaxes are sometimes referred to as Xanies when they're taken recreationally. Of course. I don't want to keep getting caught up on it. I, again, agree with you. I think it's a little bit of coincidence that the drug is called Xanies as

well. And yeah, anything's possible, but it doesn't really make a lot of sense. I agree with you. I think it's a little bit of coincidence that the drug is called Xanny's as well. And yeah, anything's possible, but it doesn't really make a lot of sense. I agree with you. But I just want to hit this point home one more time before you continue on this timeline. We have a pretty baseline for how Casey conducts herself on the phone. We see her using the computer, making calls about the club throughout the day. We see a clear point in the timeline where something changes. Her pattern of behavior changes. To me, that suggests a timeline where shortly before those calls were made, something happened. And then we have silence basically for a couple hours. And we know that at 8 p.m., there's no sighting of Kaylee. And allegedly, according to Casey, Kaylee's at Zanny's. We know that's not true. She's not with Cindy. She's not Kaylee's not with Cindy. She's not with George. So to me, that four hour gap right there, when we eventually do see Casey again for the first time is suggestive that whatever happened to Kaylee had already happened at that point, probably around that four o'clock timeframe. And then whatever happened to Kaylee, whether it was being placed in Casey's trunk or, you know, brought to the ultimate location where she was

eventually found. That's when that took place because we do have a sighting of Casey and there's no accountability for Kaylee at that point. So I think whatever happened had already occurred. And this would again, be taking into consideration that if we're to believe him although it's a little sketchy kaylee was still hurt at 3 p.m by jesse grunn so you have a three o'clock to eight o'clock window with a four o'clock spot where something happened something where casey had this sense of urgency to talk to the people she was closest to and they didn't answer it all kind of lines up for me but i know we still have a lot to go, so I'll reserve judgment. But that's where my head is at right now as we're going through this

timeline. Yeah. And I mean, is it possible that Casey was like, oh, you know, I'm going out tonight, but I don't want my mom to watch the baby because now this gives her validation that I need her and I don't need her. So I'll figure out another way to have Kaylee with me and still do what I want. And maybe she would give her something to make her tired. Yeah, I do think that that's possible. It could have happened. But where would it have happened? Why would she have given her the Xanax like in the middle of the afternoon? Because by the time she saw Tony that night, Kaylee wasn't there. So why would she be giving her that stuff so early when she wanted to, you know, party later that night? Like you wouldn't give her anything in the afternoon Kaylee wasn't there. So why would she be giving her that stuff so early when she wanted to party

later that night? You wouldn't give her anything in the afternoon when you're just driving around and hanging out at home. So that's why I think it's just not too reliable of a theory. But once again, with Casey Anthony, I don't think anything's too intense. I don't think she would ever be like, oh, that's going too far even for me. There's no such thing for her. So it's possible. I just don't think the timing works out for it. No. And also, haven't we established that Casey's was known to sometimes bring Kaylee along and let her hang out with her friends? That's what I'm saying. She would have brought her to Tony's apartment and maybe given her something there so that Kaylee would go to sleep and then Casey and Tony could hang out. But I can't see her doing it at like 3.30, 4 in the afternoon when she's not even with Tony.

I mean, he's still at school at that point. Or give her something while with Tony and leave her in the car. And just hope that that medication is going to last long enough where Kaylee's not going to wake up. Wake up and freak out in a car alone. No, she would have brought her upstairs. She would have put her in bed. You know, it's the best way to do that. So I don't, it just doesn't make sense.

And by the way, if we had witness reports or accounts from friends that said, hey, she was known from time to time to come in for a party and have Kaylee sleep in the car, completely different ballgame. You and I are completely different. There's no history of it. Doesn't mean it's not possible, but there's nothing to support it at this point. I think it's more likely at this point when you're seeing Casey on film, unfortunately, Kaylee's already deceased. I agree. So between 7.21 and 8.03 p.m., Casey's phone seems to be turned off again. But during that time of cell silence, Casey and her boyfriend, Tony, are seen on surveillance at a blockbuster video at 7.58 p.m., but Kaylee is not with them. Later, Tony was asked if there

was anything off about Casey. Did she seem nervous or upset? And Tony said, no, she was behaving like the normal, close girlfriend she always was. And after leaving Blockbuster, they returned to his apartment. Tony's roommate Nathan was there. He was in his bedroom playing guitar, wearing headphones, but he remembered Casey and Tony coming in. Tony and Casey watched both of the movies that they had rented that night, and then they went to bed sometime after 1 a.m. Now, Casey's cell phone was once again shut off and had no activity from 12.01 a.m. on the 17th until 10.59 a.m., and then she probably woke up around that time. She turned her phone on and checked her voicemail. She then called her friend Amy, and this call lasted for about eight minutes.

Then her phone went dark again from 11.30 to 2.12 p.m. And when she turned her phone back on, she called her father, George, at work. This call lasted three minutes. At around 2.30, the Anthony's neighbor, Brian Berner, saw Casey arrive at the Hope Spring Drive home and back into the garage, which he said was unusual for her. After this, Casey made some calls to her boyfriend and her friend, Clint House. Clint was actually a friend of Tony's. And then her phone went dark again from 2.49 to 3.15 p.m. She turned on her phone for like one minute. Then she posted on Amy Huizenga's Facebook wall, quote, cheer me up, lady.

I love you and I can't wait to finally get you moved in, end quote. Then Casey's phone went dark again from 3.15 to 3.47 p.m. And at that point, she sent some texts to her boyfriend, Tony. She called him twice at 4.04 PM. Neither call was answered. And then her phone went dark again between 4.05 and 5.20 PM. So this is, I think, probably uncharacteristic for her, the amount of times that she's turning off her phone during these two days.

You know what I mean? It's like she didn't do that. She was attached to her phone. She's always texting people, always Facebooking, always calling people. But now she's turning her phone off for long stretches of period of time, sometimes short stretches period, like 30 minutes, sometimes two hours. That's strange. I want to throw something else at you. You might not have this information, but I'd be willing to bet that if we were able to go back, we would find that George Anthony was working on the 17th.

He was. She called him at work. There you go. Why is that important? Because if you notice, she went back to the house at what time? Right after she talked to him, basically. And where would he not be at that point? At the house. She wanted to make sure he was working and not home. There you go. Yeah.

There you go. I mean, you don't have to be a detective to put two and two together. I mean, she was waiting to go back and get the shovel and make sure that george wasn't home to say why are you grabbing a shovel why are you digging up bamboo roots yeah in my entire life i've never probably seen you hold a shovel and now today you're looking for a shovel that you want to take with you to go she was specifically waiting and maybe even called him to confirm yes she did because it was his third it would have been his third day at work, right? So she doesn't know a schedule by now. She doesn't know what days he has off.

Making sure he's not going to go in late this day or something came up where she pulls up and, hey, he's there. So she, hey, what are you doing? All right, just checking in. Notice today she didn't call Cindy? No, not yet. No, no call to Cindy yet because now she's got a different plan. She's got a different...

Initially, when it first happened, maybe she was uncertain. If this wasn't premeditated, uncertain how to handle it. And her natural reaction was to call mommy, to call daddy. The people who have bailed her out and all of her mistakes and lies throughout her entire life, that was her natural reaction. But when that didn't happen, when they didn't answer, she had to come up with her own plan, which might, which might have involved, okay, Zanny's the fall person. I have to make this look like a kidnapping, which may explain the duct tape. in the trunk and then later placed her in the location. But at minimum, whenever she dropped Kaylee off at that location, it was quick and she had to go back to maybe cover her tracks a little bit more and needed the shovel. Yeah. And the weird thing is she's not even living at the Anthony home at this point, right? She's doing everything in her power to avoid being there for an extended

period of time. And she's telling Jesse and all her other friends like, oh, Amy and me aren't moving into my house anymore. But she's still telling Amy that they are moving in together. And I don't I don't understand the end game here. No, it could be just as simple as what you've said before, which is like now she's putting up a front. Now she's trying to trying to be consistent in what she's been saying before the incident because she knows it's going to come into question down the road.

I mean, it's the sometimes the simple explanation is the right one. I don't know. It's tough to get into her mind. Yes. Well, so remember, her phones turned off from 4.05 to 5.20 p.m. And during this time, she visited her friend Chris Stutz at his parents' home. That's when she told him her father was cheating on her mother, they were getting a divorce. And she said she was planning to buy a $250,000 house on Curry Ford Road for just herself and her daughter, Kaylee. So now Amy's out of the picture completely. And now Casey's got money to be buying a $250,000 house. It's just all lies. And I'm not sure why. Nobody asked. But she volunteers this stuff. So her phone turns back on at 5.20 p.m. And then at 5.23 p.m., it goes dark again until 8.38 p.m. We don't know what she was doing in this time.

But later, her boyfriend Tony found a receipt in his vehicle, which Casey was driving, showing that she had stopped for gas at 6.31 p.m. at a Hess gas station located at 11300 University Boulevard in Orlando, Florida. That day, Casey's phone would go dark another three times, from 847 to 927 p.m., again from 939 to 1120 p.m., and then again from 1128 p.m. to midnight. And just a real quick clarification for anybody who doesn't know why this is important, for anyone who's not familiar with it, even if she's not using her phone, the phone is constantly going to ping off these towers because it has consistent service in case somebody calls her or whatever. So the fact that there's no pinging going from the tower to her phone and

then back suggest that the phone's not sending out a signal or receiving a signal. Yes. So these are indications that the phone is either a out of range, out of service or turned off. It's the only two options. And there's no evidence to suggest she was in some desert area where there would be no reception. Correct. I mean, here, it's still pinging off the tower that's in this area constantly. It's every couple minutes. So the fact that you have these long durations with no pings is highly suggestive that she was deliberately turning off her phone so that it wouldn't be located at a later date. Yeah. Usually we would say, oh, the phone had no activity at this time.

So either it was purposely turned off or the battery died. But looking at it this way, like 8.47 to 9.27 p.m. And then it turns on until 9.39 p.m. And then it goes dark till 11.20. And then eight minutes later, it turns back on again. That's somebody clearly purposely turning their phone on and off. The battery's not dying, you know, three times in that couple hour space. Yeah. And it goes back to the initial frantic calls.

And then correct me if I'm wrong, but if we're to believe that maybe the Walmart thing happened on a different day or not at all, her phone went dark for about an hour and a half there too, right? Was it 425 to 510, something like that? Five something, yeah. Where right after these frantic calls, phone gets turned off. So just keep it all in mind. So after Casey and Kaylee left on the afternoon of June 16th, Cindy and George Anthony did not see or hear from her for much of the rest of the month. Like they would hear from her every so often, but they really didn't see her that often. She was purposely trying to avoid being there at the house. George Anthony would later

tell investigators that he did not speak with Casey for almost a week. And prior to that, the longest time he had ever gone without seeing his granddaughter Kaylee was at the most a night or two. He said as the days passed, he became worried, but he talked to his wife about it. And Cindy said that she'd been in contact with Casey and everything was fine. However, by the 23rd of June, George was becoming concerned. And he said, quote, I mean, I talked to Cindy about it. I mean, because like I said, her and Casey were extremely close and just concerned about, you know, where she might be. And if I'm not mistaken, Cindy says, well, she's with a friend. She's been working a lot. I think she was thinking of doing some traveling or something like that. And I said, well, you know, it would be nice to have, I used

to call, refer to Kaylee as our little girl. And I says, well, I wonder how our little girl is doing. God, I'd sure love to hear her voice. I haven't heard it for a week, end quote. So that's kind of sad. Even if George Anthony is a little bit of a creep, you know, that's very sad because I can't imagine like having your granddaughter with you every day, waking up with her, putting her to bed, and then you just don't see or hear her voice for a week. That has to be extremely, extremely tough. So let's go to a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, so Casey had been in contact with her mother, as we discussed. On the 16th, she told Cindy that she and Kaylee were going to spend the night with Zanny the nanny.

And on the 17th, Casey told Cindy that she had too much on her plate. She had too much going on at work to make it back home that day. Then on the 18th, Casey told Cindy that she was going to a convention for work at the Universal Orlando Hard Rock Hotel. Now, according to Casey, or at least according to what Casey told her mother, she remained at the Hard Rock until June 20th. And then at that point, her boss, her job at Universal Studios, sent her to Busch Gardens in Tampa to help organize an event at a hotel there. Now, Cindy couldn't remember which hotel Casey claimed to be working at. Casey told Cindy not to worry about either her or Kaylee because they were having a great time. Casey said she didn't go to Tampa alone. She was accompanied by Kaylee, Zannie the

Nanny, Zannie's sister Raquel, and Casey's co-worker Juliette Lewis and Juliette's daughter Annabelle. So just as a quick spoiler alert, Juliette Lewis is not a real person. Juliette Lewis does not exist. So I'm going to go ahead and assume Juliette Lewis's daughter, Annabelle, also does not exist. We already know Zanny doesn't exist. So I'm going to also go out on a limb here and say Zanny's sister, Raquel, doesn't exist. And let's just say like it is, you know, Casey wasn't in Tampa. She wasn't at Busch Gardens. She wasn't doing any of that.

But Casey told Cindy that while she and Juliette Lewis worked, Zannie and Raquel were going to keep an eye on the kids in the park at Busch Gardens. And they were all having so much fun that they were going to stay through the weekend and enjoy the park together. Cindy asked Casey about Kaylee, like, doesn't she need fresh clothes or shoes or toys or something? And Casey told Cindy not to worry because Zannie always had a ton of extra clothes for Kaylee and they'd all gone shopping together to buy her new clothes too. So they were all set. During this entire time, Cindy Anthony never spoke to Kaylee on the phone once. Cindy did ask Casey if she could talk to Kaylee, but there was always a reason that Kaylee could not come to the phone. And these excuses would range from the benign, like, you know, Kaylee isn't here, she's at the pool with Zanny, to the extreme and unbelievable, like the excuse she gave Cindy on June 23rd.

On this day, Casey and her merry band of imaginary friends were supposed to have left Tampa and returned to Orlando. And Cindy was like, okay, you guys are coming back into town. You're clearly not working today. So can you stop by? Or at least can you have Kaylee call me? And I guess Casey was like, yeah, yeah, sure, we'll do that. But at 5.30 that night, Casey called her mother and said that Zannie and Raquel had gotten into a bad car accident on the way back to Orlando. And Zannie had to be admitted to the hospital in Tampa for a concussion. And Casey, always the selfless individual, she had sent Kaylee back to the hotel in Tampa with Juliet and Annabelle, and she had stayed in the hospital at Zannie's bedside. So Kaylee couldn't come to the phone, and they wouldn't be able to stop in and

say hello because she was in the hospital with Zannie. And Kaylee wasn't even with her at that time, so you can't even talk to her. Now, we obviously know Casey wasn't in Tampa at some work event. We know this because Casey did not have a job, but also because we have the benefit of hindsight and police records to show what Casey was really doing during the first week her two-year-old daughter was missing. She had basically moved in with her boyfriend, Tony, and she was living the untethered life of a single, childless college student. On Friday, June 20th, Casey was messaging people to meet her at Fusion nightclub that evening, and that night she was dancing away, wearing a little blue dress, smiling for pictures with friends, and participating in a hot body contest. The club photographer that night said, quote, smiling for pictures with friends and participating in a hot body contest.

The club photographer that night said, quote, She seemed happy, as were most of the people there that night. I mean, as you can see from the photos, she seemed all right, having a good time, just like people our age would that night. End quote. So a woman named Maria Kish, this was the girlfriend of Clint House. Clint House used to be a roommate of Tony's. They were, you know, friends. And Clint also DJed at Fusion Nightclub. Maria said that Casey was at Tony's apartment all

weekend and no one ever saw Kaylee. You know, I think one thing's very clear here. Regardless of what happened, Casey's a scumbag. Congratulations. There's no way around it, whether she was actually missing, which I don't believe, or this was intentional or accidental. No matter which way you slice it, Casey's a horrible person. Yeah, I agree. No doubt about it. I agree, yeah. I'm going out a little bit on a limb here. I feel more confident about Cindy than I do about George, but I know that this is a theory out there, so I want to talk about it. I do think a lot of this,

you know, I'm assuming a lot of where you're getting this from is police records and court testimony where Cindy saying she's having these calls with Casey, which to me is highly suggestive that Cindy was not involved with the incident or the cover up afterwards. I agree. Okay. And I, and I, I know it's a little harder with George because it doesn't seem like there's as much there, but also again, if he was in on it, I don't know if Casey would have been as apt to move out unless it was at his guidance where he's

like, you got to go because Cindy's going to figure it out, which is possible. But I do think this is slightly suggestive that he may not have been in on it either. Based on conversations that him and Cindy were having, yes, he could obviously be lying. I get all that, guys. But to me, it sounds like she wanted to get away from both of them. That's my take on it. And maybe that'll change when you hit me with something. But that's where I'm leaning because I do know that there is a strong scenario out there that maybe both the parents were involved or at minimum George was. So I'm also considering that as I'm hearing all this information. So I agree with you.

Casey's a scumbag. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that George or Cindy were involved in any cover up. All right. So you're in that camp. I wasn't sure where you, we hadn't talked about that. You don't think for anybody who didn't get this from when you did it on your channel

or you, you, you do not think that George, you don't think highly of George. You never said that, but you do not think that he was involved in the incident or the coverup. Yeah. So don't get it twisted. I don't think highly of George at all. Yes. I got you there. I think both Cindy and George have done reprehensible things. And I think that in the end they were responsible for how Casey turned out is what happens when you- Yeah. she's a product of their parental skills. But I mean, we can say that about a million people, right? One thousand percent. And that doesn't mean that they're going to murder a child and then cover it

up or cover up the murder of a child. I don't I don't think that they were involved. I don't think there's any possible way that they could be. And I mean, these people. Interesting. I didn't know where you fell on that. Yeah. So like if you look at Casey, not even in interviews after, but like just during this time period, she is not upset. Nobody's seeing her cry. Nobody's, you know, even noticing she's not acting like moody or quiet or withdrawn. She is out there. She is the the essential extrovert. She's dancing on tables. She's in a hot body contest. She's hanging out with her boyfriend watching movies. She seems fine. And even if Casey thought Kaylee was just missing at this point, that's fucked up, right? Okay. So either way you cut the pie, it's horrible.

But Cindy and George in interviews, and you can even hear when Cindy calls 911, like these people are frantic and they are heartbroken. Like, I mean, in some of these interviews, George just sits there and cries the whole entire time. So they're clearly broken up about it. And would they be crying if they had participated in a cover up? Probably yes, but it just doesn't it doesn't make any sense. Whatever happened to Kaylee was strictly Casey's responsibility alone. And I truly believe that. Now, we might come across something that makes us think like, oh, well, let's explore this theory. And we have to explore that theory anyways. We've got to explore the theory where

Kaylee accidentally drowns in the pool and then George helps Casey cover it up. We have to see how much credibility there is to it. But I will say now where I stand, I don't think it's possible. Possible, plausible, two different things. Everything's possible. I don't think it happens. Everything's possible, right? If he's in the vicinity, it's possible. But plausible, I don't think so. And I also think that if the police had something that they could have hung their hat on as far as implicating George, they would have. That's not saying that maybe internally they felt like he was involved and he didn't just have enough.

That's possible. But the fact that they didn't go after him, I think, is also suggestive that investigators didn't feel he was directly involved in any way. Well, you know, I would love to see his cell phone pings for those days. I was 100 percent. But. But here's the thing. Police have. I don't think they do. I bet you they have. I don't think they do because check it out. I don't think they do because by the time this whole theory about George being involved with it even comes up,

you're like at the end of the trial. Jose Baez sprung that on everyone. No police officer when Casey first reports Kaylee missing or when Cindy first reports Kaylee missing, is going to think like, oh, yeah, the father's involved. So they're not going to pull his cell phone records. He's not a suspect. He's not a person of interest. They're focused on Casey. And by the time Jose Baez brings this up, I mean, it's like, what, two years later? Those cell phone records don't exist anymore. You can't get those. They decided to charge her a year prior, right? I mean, it was- They arrested her in July of 2008.

So her arrest is right around the corner here. Yeah. So I'm saying they had already thought that she was- But she never said anything about her father doing anything. Well, I'll say this. I hope to God that if they arrested her in July of 2008 and knowing who she is and how she kind of relied on her parents that they damn well should have checked alibis out for both George and Cindy. I guarantee you they did

not. Well, if that is the case, that's terrible police work. I'm hoping you're wrong. I have nothing to dispute what you're saying, so I'll leave it at that. But I hope you're wrong because it would be very easy to confirm or discredit whatever George said he was doing during that time frame. And if they didn't do that, that's terrible police work. So I will just say, I don't know if that happened or not. I'm just hoping that your assessment, your assumption is wrong because that would be really embarrassing. I'm going to make a note to myself because I guarantee you it's in either Jose Baez's

book or the prosecutor's book, but I'm going to make a note to myself because I guarantee you it's in either Jose Baez's book or the prosecutor's book. But I'm going to double check. But I guarantee you, like, I'm 100 percent that they did not. Did not check his. Well, that's crazy. If that happened and they didn't at least confirm that he was nowhere in the vicinity of where Kaylee was eventually found before or after, almost immediately when they were doing the pings for Casey. They didn't find Kaylee until several months after, even after they had arrested Casey too. Right. But they still, they were getting pings for Casey. I personally, because of the

closeness of them and living in the same house, and I would have gotten ping traces for all three of them. I agree with you. I would have too. Boyfriends as well. Boyfriends, Tony, Tony, Amy, all them. Yep. That's all. There's nothing wrong with that. A judge would have given me a search warrant for that. They would have signed a search warrant for that in 10 seconds based on the fact that they were communicating on the day of the alleged disappearance. Let me tell you something, though. I legitimately think and I mean, listen, this is Orlando, Florida Police Department. All right. They're not like the best. Historically, I haven't had any interaction with them. They're not the best. I mean, it's Florida. So listen, I think that they genuinely believed Casey at first. The Zanny, the nanny had Kaylee. You know, it's you're talking about this Hispanic nanny. You know, she's kind of sketchy. She lives in the sawgrass apartments. I think they legitimately just like chase this wild goose trail for so long. And by the time they came back and they were like, all right, plan B, all of that stuff was gone because I worked for Verizon.

They don't they can't keep those cell phone records for much longer than a couple of months. They don't have the storage capacity for that. And they're like systems, they're cloud systems. So yeah, I think that. By the way, Zanny was a real person, right? Wasn't she like an actual,

there's an actual woman who never met Casey Anthony before, but she actually sued her. I was looking it up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She civilly sued her for defamation. I mean,

of course there's Zenaida Gonzalez is all over the freaking place. Yeah. But she was like, Hey, I don't know this woman at all. And by the way, that Zenaida Gonzalez has a record. Like she was like, hey, I don't know this woman at all. And by the way, that Zenaida Gonzalez has a record. She's had some criminal past.

Yes, that poor woman was pulled over the coals because of freaking Casey Anthony. More collateral damage of Casey. Yeah, and there was clearly nothing that was ever established by law enforcement to suggest that this person,

this individual who did exist, but just happened to have the same name had any contact or connection to Casey? No, for our purposes here, Zanny the nanny is not a real person. She does not exist. Are there Zanata Gonzalez's out there in the world? Yes, absolutely. But not anyone that was a nanny for Kaylee.

Yep, absolutely. So on the evening of June 20th, right after Casey's in the hot body contest, they go back to Tony's apartment. Tony said Casey had she got pretty drunk that night and he was trying to get her to go to sleep because she was probably annoying the hell out of him. But she kept babbling about how she could sing and that she should be a singer. And this is just, you know, I'm saying this is just to show you like what's on her mind. She's drunk. Your daughter's gone. But you're thinking about like your next career as a singer. You're not like crying because, you know, when you're

drunk, your inhibitions go down. So if something's been bothering you all day, you have too much to drink. That stuff comes out, whether it's positive or bad or sad. It's going to come out. And she was just letting all the wrong stuff come out. She's an idiot. She's an idiot. Like she's a sociopath, man. I usually try to, I'm usually empathetic and I'm like, well, nah, she's an idiot. I mean, listen, I can, I do have a very good talent for compartmentalization. I do have an on-off switch. I find it to be very effective for this, my child. That's the one place I can't turn the on-off switch on and off. So she's a psychopath. So there was a diary that was entered into evidence during trial. It was a notebook, a diary that Casey allegedly kept.

And this notebook had the words Carpe Diem, seize the day, written on the back of the first title page, as well as the words, every day is a brand new beginning. Casey would love if every day was a brand new beginning. It's probably why she wrote it. But the first entry in the book that we see, it's dated June 21st, and it reads as follows. I have no regrets. Just a bit worried. I just want for everything to work out okay. I completely trust my own judgment, and I know that I made the right decision. I just hope that the end justifies the means. I just want to know what the future will hold for me. I guess I will soon see.

This is the happiest that I have been in a very long time. I hope that my happiness continues to grow. I've made new friends that I really like. I've surrounded myself with good people. I am finally happy. Let's just hope that doesn't change, end quote. All right, so on the same page that the words Carpe Diem are written on, you can also see in the upper corner, the numbers 03. And Casey's defense team would later argue that she had written that entry in 2003. So she had

written in June 21st, 2003, when she was still in high school before Kaylee was even born. But people have argued that Casey could have originally gotten the journal in 2003 and not started writing in it until 2008. And there's even evidence that the notebook being used for that journal was not sold until after 2003. So it's kind of just another piece of the puzzle that we won't know whether or not it fits, but it's certainly interesting. I would have to wonder what was going on in her life when she was like 17 and in high school where she was saying, I have no regrets. I'm just a bit worried. I want everything to work out okay. She's very like

not clear about it. She's sort of elusive about what she's talking about, which you would think if she's talking about breaking up with a boyfriend or, you know, traveling to a new country or something, she would be more specific about that. Like, I'm really nervous about, you know, breaking up with Mark. We've been together for so long. I just hope everything works out and I made the right decision. She doesn't say that. She's very, like, vague about what it is she's hoping works out. So I don't know.

What do you think about it? I think as much as I couldn't care less for Casey Anthony and I have no respect for her or her intelligence, it would be very stupid to leave any paper trail that you carried out a murder or that you... Yeah, but you just said you don't have a respect for her intelligence. I don't. I don't. So that's what I'm saying. I'm prefacing by saying if anyone would do something like this, it would be a Casey Anthony. Or a Joel guy. Or a Joel guy, where he writes down his list. But I will say, all that being said, if they were able

to prove that this was written after Kaylee's disappearance and or death, I do think this would be a strong motive for this being intentional, right? I mean, I think if that was substantiated, me who is leaning towards accident here, like negligence leading to an accidental drowning, this right here would contradict that hypothesis because this sounds to me like someone who is unhappy with Kaylee was not being fulfilled in their life because of this quote unquote hindrance. And now because of their decision is happy again. So this would say motive, motive, motive.

But I do think it is very plausible again, to use that word that this might've been a journal entry. Cause it does sound like a girl who could be talking about the decision to leave a boyfriend or something like that. And if we're to assume that she has any grain of intelligence and she went through all these things to try to create this narrative, to write a journal entry like this would be pretty stupid, although not out of the question for Casey Anthony. That's my take on it. She is stupid. She's a stupid person. She tells different lies to everybody, never thinking they're going to talk to each other.

I mean, she didn't get away with this for very long, right? But I think it was written after. You think it was written after? I do because you know what? I have, I like to buy notebooks. So every time I go to Target or like Walmart or something, I buy a new notebook and then I'll like write the date in it, you know, and I'm like, I'm going to write on this every day and really like, you know, get my life together. And then I never do. But then later, years later, I'll pick up the notebook

and I'll be like, oh, I love this notebook and I'll start writing in it. So it's possible. I think it was written after because why would you be so elusive about what you're talking about in a journal or a diary? Like you're thinking nobody's going to see this. The only reason you would be so elusive is because you think there might come a time where somebody might see it. So you don't want to come right out and say what it is that you're talking about. Yeah, I can't. I can't discredit that. All right. Let's take a quick break while you think about how stupid Casey Anthony is. Done. We'll be right back. All right. So on Monday, June 23rd, the Anthony's neighbor, Brian Berner, claims he saw a pickup

truck at the Anthony home, and he heard two voices, Casey's and the voice of a man. Now, it turns out that Casey had run out of gas, and Casey knew that her father kept gas cans in the shed, so she and Tony showed up, they broke into the shed using a tire iron to break the lock. They took the gas cans and they left. Tony then drove Casey back to her car where she filled her tank with the stolen gas. Now, the next day, George Anthony goes out to mow the lawn and he obviously notices that the shed's been tampered with and his gas cans are missing. So he called the police and he reported a burglary. And then he told the neighbor, Brian Burner's son, like, watch out, you know, an FYI, like our property was trespassed on. It could be, you know, repeat offenders. You might want to lock everything tonight, et cetera. Now, in reality,

even though George was like telling the neighbors this and he was filing police reports, he was heavily leaning towards the gas having been taken by his daughter, Casey, because she had done things like that before. On June 24th, the same day that George Anthony finds out the gas cans are missing, Casey stopped at her parents' home to grab some clothes. She did not have Kaylee with her and George Anthony, who was home, he was like, where's Kaylee? How is she? Casey said Kaylee was with Zannie and she was fine. But then George said that Casey looked at him and said, quote, it's a shame what happened in the shed, which prompted George to walk out to the garage. And then he said Casey started following him. And he was like, I'm checking your car.

You know, I think you took these gas cans. And she was like, no, dad, like, you know, let me help. I'll show you. It's fine. And she tried to stop him from going into the car. And by the time they got to her car uh she was pissed so she he said she like threw open the trunk and grabbed the stolen gas cans out and then she like threw them at his feet and she said there's your effing gas cans yeah you know this story's stupid

again but for me why it's so significant is it's kind of the last nail I needed to, in my opinion, if we're, you know, I believe this story is so stupid, it can't be made up, right? This really, to me, now, with a couple of things. No, Anthony Lazaro said, like, yeah, that absolutely happened. Yeah. Yeah, this happened. where she came home at 2.30 after talking to him to grab a shovel, which is the first thing that suggests that George isn't involved because she needs the shovel, not George, right? That's one. And then we have the lack of communication between Casey and George over this timeframe where if he was involved and he had helped cover it up, you would think there would be communication at least

between those two that would be- Longer than a minute or two. Right. And above what their normal conversations are as far as her phone records and in fact i will say that this was this point was made by jose baez he said it's very odd that in the months leading up to this casey and george are calling each other all the time they're talking on the phone all the time but after kay goes missing, there's very little contact between them. Right. There you go. And then you have this, which is clearly they're not on the same page. He doesn't trust her. She doesn't want him near the trunk of the car for whatever reason. It's her vehicle, right? The trunk of her vehicle, the Sunfire?

Her vehicle in her name. It's in her parents' name and they let her drive it. Hey, don't get me in trouble. Don't get me in trouble for possession of vehicles. I'm not going there. I'm staying away from it. No, Stephanie, no. But she doesn't want him around the car. She's stealing from him. Clearly he's not in on it. And for him to bring up this conversation to police and whoever he else brought, it wouldn't look good for her. And clearly he didn't have a problem bringing it up. So there's clearly dissension. It's not about the gas cans. He's concerned about Kaylee. He's telling her that I know you're full of shit right now. Something's not right. And that to me really drives home the point that this man had nothing to do with the death of his granddaughter or covering up, in my opinion. You know what this also tells me about Casey?

Scumbag? What else we got? I mean, we were always idiots. Yeah. I mean, all of the above. But she's got a bit of a temper, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely.

She stole. So she takes what she needs. If it's not given to her willingly, she'll take it. She doesn't give a shit whether you're offering it to her freely or she has to break into your shed to take it. If it's what she needs, she'll get it one way or the other. And then she has the balls to go in and make some snide comment like, it's a shame what happened in the shed. It's kind of like challenging him like, yeah, confront me about it. She wants attention. She's a little kid who acts out to get attention. But then when she gets the attention and she realizes she's about to get in trouble, she's sort of like a meltdown. Like, oh, no, I'm not going to let you find those gas cans and get mad at me. I didn't get fired. I quit. And now I'm going to grab the gas cans out and throw them at your feet so I can in some way make myself look like a victim in this twisted situation where I'm not the victim at all. But as long as I'm the loudest one and I'm the angriest one, that means I'm the victim. Endure the perpetrator. Sounds about right.

It sounds about right to me. Yeah. I mean, I got, I mean, there's not enough, not enough words to describe Casey and there are not any good terms, but, but yeah, looking at this from an investigatory standpoint, you've presented a lot of things so far that suggested that George is not involved. And there's been very little presented that would suggest he was involved. I mean, the only thing we really had, stop me if I'm wrong, is this search that was done around a time when they both could have been home. And even that search was more about suicidal thoughts. Could have been something about him and nothing to do with Kaylee. Right, exactly. So there has been nothing so far. And even that search was more about suicidal thoughts. Could have been something about him and nothing to do with Kaylee. Right.

Exactly. So there has been nothing so far. And by all means, I put your research up against anyone. But if people out there have things that are concrete that show George was being deceitful to police or whoever, this does not sound like that. And just minutes after this interaction, Casey sent a message to her friend Troy Brown that, no, her friend Amy had not moved into her house yet. In fact, she herself had barely been living in that house for the past nine days and ended the message with,

drama, I'll fill you in later. Earlier that day, Casey had told her mother Cindy that Zannie had to stay in the hospital in Tampa longer for observation. And the reason Casey was back in Orlando and was able to stop in at the house was because she had to grab some clothes. She also had to grab Zannie's insurance information from Zannie's apartment. A bit after 3 p.m. on June 24th, Casey uploaded two pictures to her photo bucket account. Now, if you're watching on YouTube, we will include these pictures. But for those listening on audio, I will describe them. One was a picture of two people. It looks like a boy and a girl. Their backs are to the cameras.

It's like written, you know, it's drawn. It's not written. It's drawn. It's like a drawn picture. And the words that are on the picture say, those we meet change us forever. The other picture was appeared to be painted on a wall, kind of like graffiti. And it's a little girl wearing what looks like a schoolgirl outfit and kind of plus signs trailing away from her. And Casey does this a lot. She either sees pictures that she likes online and then she'll just save them to her photo bucket account. But they get a little darker as time goes on. Okay, so remember, this is June 24th. At 3.12 p.m., Jesse Grund called Casey. He said he didn't know where she was when he was talking to her, but he said he heard Casey talking to Kaylee. He told police, quote, whenever Casey got on the phone, Kaylee is immediately

wanting attention. She wanted the attention on her whenever her mother was on the phone, and she wanted to talk on the phone. But I remember Casey specifically telling Kaylee in the background, stop doing that. No. And then I heard Kaylee, you know, gibberish in the background. And then she told Kaylee to get off the table, told her to sit down. I remember hearing that specifically. End quote. I will say that there's no doubt in my mind that whatever happened to Kaylee had already occurred at this point. And as far as what you said earlier about Casey doing something to throw people off, this is the time you would do it because you're trying to throw off the timeline. it might not even be kaylee it could be another recording but casey's making a conscious effort to acknowledge the kid in the background kaylee stop doing that you know like table get off the table because it wouldn't be enough just to hear her in the background he has to definitively hear casey communicating with kaylee because now jesse will tell police kaylee was still alive on this

day on the 24th i heard heard Casey talking to her in the background. So back to what you were saying earlier, I don't know if she would have done it that early in the process. Cause I think I personally think Kaylee was still alive at that point at three 52. I think that was Kaylee. Here's where if, if Jesse's right in what he heard, this is definitely an intentional act of deception. Yeah. Like you're pretending your child who you know is dead is alive and you're yelling at her to get off the table.

Like I want to kick this woman in the face so hard. I don't condone violence, so I'm just going to. Well, I woke up today and chose violence and it's directed at Casey Anthony. Now, you know, you might say like, well, is Jesse sure this happened on the 24th? Jesse says he is sure that this conversation happened on the 24th because it was the day he resigned from the Orlando Police Department. Did you know he worked at the Orlando Police Department for a little bit? He did. I did not.

So it's the day he resigned. And right after he got off the phone with her, he called the police department where he was working. And he spoke to a person who opened the back door at his job for him so he could go in and like give his resignation. So he remembered specifically this was June 24th. Now on June 25th, Casey spoke to her friend Amy on the phone and she mentioned that there was a horrible smell in her car that seemed to be coming from under the engine and she couldn't figure out what it was. Amy would later tell the police, quote, she was like, I think maybe my dad ran something over with my car when he borrowed it and it smells like something died in my car, end quote. So I think that even though it took pretty long

into the trial for Casey to point a finger at George Anthony, it looks like she might be trying to set up a little bit of that narrative here with Amy because George didn't borrow her car. This has been like over a week or just it's been what, about nine days since Kaylee is missing and nobody's seen her. And in that nine-day period, George Anthony did not borrow Casey's car. Casey had her car. So for her to say, oh, I think my dad hit something when he was driving my car, when he borrowed my car, it's a complete red herring because George didn't do that. So is she trying to already set the narrative that she might be trying to rope George

in to what happened to Kaylee? Possible. I personally feel, based on what you've told me, that Kaylee was really planning on sticking with, I dropped my child off with Zanny the nanny. Zanny the nanny must have taken my child. I can't find Zanny the nanny now. Like, I don't think she ever planned on implicating her parents. I think what happened, and we talked about this maybe last part,

the part before that, is when she finally was charged with a crime, Baez, who is, regardless of what you think about him, pretty good lawyer, said that whole- No, I of what you think about him, pretty good lawyer, said that whole scenario you're going with, this fictitious person who you have no record of, supposedly took your daughter. If you do that, you're going to prison for the rest of your life. You can stick with it if you want. That's what you're telling me. But if you do, you have no shot at winning. We need to know the truth. And if we're to think for a second that maybe Jose Baez has even a small part of him that's ethical,

it could have been a scenario where she never specifically told him the truth. But I know there's a lot of rumors that will get there. I see the eye rolls, but just let me play this out. I did not roll my eyes. You looked off to the left. Yeah, it was like a shocked, like I'm trying to think, does he have a shred of anything ethical in him? Personally, I do not think so. And I think that he did know. I think that, I mean, he said like when he visited Casey in prison at one point, she was like, oh, could you be my godfather? You know, like these two had an odd relationship.

You know, you know know way more than me, but either way, this was an audible, I think, during trial, where this was the reasonable doubt aspect that Baez was going to play out. So I don't think it was until much later that this scenario where George was involved in the disposal of the body came into play because it supported whatever narrative they were going with as far as Casey's defense and this being an accident. I think this quote, I think this spontaneous utterance, if you will, by Casey was coincidence. She was, again, just throwing it on someone else other than herself. It wasn't coincidence. You mean the fact that she used George's name just happened to be convenient at that moment.

Yeah, it was just- But she was trying to set the narrative that something died in her car? Yeah, possibly, because she knew what the smell was. I think George is just the scapegoat at that point. I don't think she's thinking, again, we already said she's not smart enough to do a lot of things.

I don't think she's thinking, okay, option one is Zanny the nanny. Option two will be my dad. I think it was always going to be Zanny the nanny for her. And that's what the narrative she was creating. But she knew when Amy brought up the smell, what she was referring to. And because she knew what the smell was, she insinuated that it might've been from a dead animal, not something like, oh, you know, maybe I just had food in here or whatever. She went to the route of, no, I hear you. This sounds like someone

died around the vehicle. It just doesn't make sense that she would even bring it up if she knew what that smell was. Because if you're going to pin it on Zanny the nanny, Zanny the nanny doesn't have your car. You would know if Zanny the nanny had borrowed your car. She didn't say, oh, I think that when Zanny borrowed it, she must have hit something with a dead animal. I think legitimately, I think legitimately Casey Anthony smelled that smell and didn't put two and two together because she's not smart. She could have just been like, oh, you know, Zanny borrowed my car a couple of days ago. I wonder if she hit an animal. Then you're really kind of going with that narrative. Otherwise, you're smelling something and you're too dumb to put two and two together that what you're smelling is the remnants of a body decomposing, a body that your daughter,

a body you put in there. You're too stupid to put that together. Yeah. And I think that's the scenario, whether it's accidental or intentional. You're right on your spot on the body. The car was used based on science, coffin flies, the, the cadaver dog, you know, and I know the dogs aren't always a hit guys. I said that in the, in Lacey's thing and it's true, but the presence of the coffin flies are very suggestive that there was a dead animal or a dead person in that vehicle at some point. And, uh, we don't think there was any dead animals in there. How did this jury find her not guilty? Yeah. So that to me is that this vehicle was used for the transportation of Kaylee. And yeah, that is what it is. That's what that smell is for sure. And in the heat down in Florida, it would have happened pretty quickly.

I was just thinking the same exact thing, dude. I was like, it's only a couple of days. Like, would it have really been that drastic at that point? I was like, it's Florida. I was just thinking the same exact thing, dude. I was like, it's only a couple of days. Like, would it have really been that drastic at that point? I was like, it's Florida. I was, my mind was in the same place. Well, I don't think Kaylee was in the car at that point, obviously. No, no, no, no. I can tell you from experience that it doesn't take long for the body to expel fluids, gases, et cetera.

And all those things would be absorbed by the carpeting in that trunk. Exactly. And that's as far as I'm going to go out of respect for, for Kaylee's, you know, family and all that stuff, not Casey, but you guys can put two and two together. There would be remnants that wouldn't even maybe be present to the eye that would be embedded in that carpeting that you would be able to smell at a much later date, especially if it's hot outside and in a closed area like a trunk. You got to remember those trunks, I don't know the specifics of the sunfire, but usually there's an access point or there's at least gaps between the back seat and the trunk.

And so those smells would go into the cabin of the vehicle. Yeah. It's like when you have garbage in your garbage can and then you take the garbage out and bring it outside, but you come back in and you can still smell that smell in the garbage can. There's like fumes and things that get left behind. And that's exactly what happened. I just think she was too dumb to realize that. And as far as the engine compartment, very simple explanation for that. When you have a vehicle that has the air conditioning on, the air conditioning system will suck in air from the interior of the vehicle and then blow it back out into your face. So you think it's coming from the engine.

From the engine. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. What an idiot. So Casey spent the night at Tony's that night and she uploaded a bunch of stuff into her photo bucket account. She uploaded a picture of the words La Vita Bella, which is Italian for the beautiful

life. And this is significant because shortly after she would get a tattoo of these words. She also uploaded pictures that said, I love tattooed boys, two skeletons kissing, a picture of some art with the words, quote, with love and kisses, nothing lasts forever. And a picture of an apple carved into a skull, like the apple itself is carved to look like a skull, as well as other pictures. Before we continue on, let's take our last break, and we'll be right back, and we'll be with you for the remainder of the episode, break free. All right, on Friday, June 27th, Casey told her mother that she was back in Orlando, finally. Now, remember, this entire entire time she has not left Orlando. She's been there the whole time, but she told her mother she's back in Orlando,

but she was going to be staying at the Hard Rock Hotel again to work on an event she was planning for Universal Studios. And on this day, Casey actually ran out of gas again, twice in one week. And she texted her friend Amy the following, quote, There was definitely part of a dead animal plastered to the frame of my car. My car ran out of gas again, two weeks in a row on Friday. My stupid car runs out of gas. Wow. End quote. That's what happens when you don't have a job and you can't put gas in your car and you got to steal it from your dad's freaking tool shed. Yeah. And this just tells me that Casey was thinking about what Amy had said and

was concerned that she had smelled that and she was thinking about it all night. Put two and two together. Yep. Oh, there was definitely an animal and it was an animal. She was. No animal plastered to her car. Come on. Yep. Yep. Nope. She was definitely thinking about it all night. And this is such a trivial thing if it's the truth. Right. So you're not going to bring it up again. Right. So the fact that she made a conscious effort to text it to her. It shows you something. It shows a guilty conscience. It was on her mind way more than it should have been. And Casey also told Amy that Kaylee was with Zannie the nanny at the beach for the weekend. But she told Cindy that Kaylee, Juliette Lewis, Annabelle and Zannie had arrived back in Orlando after the car accident. And she also told Cindy that her ex-boyfriend Jeff Hopkins was back in town. Casey said that she was with Jeff from the 27th to the 30th. Once again, Jeff Hopkins is a real person, right? But just kind of like Zanny or Zanata Gonzalez, he has nothing to do with Kaylee. He's not her boyfriend. He was never her boyfriend. He never had Zanny the nanny watch his kid. He doesn't have a kid. It's all these lies. Like you always say, you know, the best liars take a grain of truth. And so that's kind of what she was doing there.

Now, on this Friday, June 27th, when Casey ran out of gas in her white Pontiac, her boyfriend, Tony Lazaro, came to save the day. Apparently, her car had run out of gas by the dumpster in the parking lot of Amscot Financial. This is a Czech cashing place on the corner of Goldenrod and Colonial Drive. An employee of Amscot Financial named Catherine Sanchez noticed the car on the same day, but she didn't do anything on that day besides just kind of take notice of the vehicle's presence. Now, the car was still there when she left work that night and the next morning when she arrived for her shift at 7 a.m. on Saturday, June 28th. Now, on this day, she did approach the car.

She wrote down the license plate number, and she kind of walked around to see if anyone had left a note on the car to indicate that it had broken down and they'd be back for it. She didn't see a note, but she said inside it looked a little messy and she saw a blanket in the back seat. She said she also noticed a smell near the vehicle, but she was unsure of where the smell was coming from because the car was parked so close to the dumpster. Catherine Sanchez then called the Orlando Police Department to let them know there was an abandoned car in the parking lot. The police told her the car had not been reported stolen, and so she

notified her compliance officer, who told her to wait one more day before calling the local towing company that Amscot had a contract with, and then the towing company would have the car removed. The next day, Sunday, June 29th, Catherine was not scheduled to work, and when she did go in for her Monday morning shift, she noticed the car was still there. And so she called Johnson's Towing Company at 7 a.m. Two hours later, tow truck driver Gary Ridgeway came and took Casey's car away. That same day, Cindy Anthony called Casey to tell her that she was off from work for a week. So she was taking a vacation from work, but she was going to stay home and she would like to babysit Kaylee. You know, she was not going to be working for a week. She would like to see Kaylee and spend some time with her.

Cindy said it had been weeks since she'd seen her granddaughter and she missed her. So Casey told Cindy, you know, listen, I've got it covered. Zannie actually can't watch Kaylee this week because, you know, she's in the hospital still, but Zannie's roommate, Jennifer Rosa, she's going to be with Kaylee at Universal Studios all week. So she keeps bringing in all these new people. And Cindy would later tell the police, quote, that was part of my frustration because I was off that week and I told her I could have watched Kaylee.

She said they were doing character breakfasts and she was taking her around the park. And that was pretty much the whole week. And I don't remember specifics on Tuesday and Wednesday. I just know it's the same story every day, end quote. So I do have to say, I feel like at this point, if this was me, I would have been calling the police to do a welfare check by now.

Because remember, Cindy hasn't seen Kaylee since June 16th, but she also hasn't even heard her voice on the phone. She doesn't trust Casey. She's accused Casey of being an unfit mother, of being negligent, of not being able to take care of Kaylee on the phone. She doesn't trust Casey. She's accused Casey of being an unfit mother, of being negligent, of not being able to take care of Kaylee on her own. And now it's been quite a long time, half a month, right? Since you've seen your granddaughter, heard her voice, you know, she's with Zannie the nanny. Zannie got into a car accident. You'd think you'd be worrying like, oh my God, why did Zannie get in a car accident? Is this person the right person to take care of my granddaughter? And now Jennifer

Rosa, this other random person, Zannie's roommate, has my granddaughter all week while I'm off for work and I can't even see her. I would have been calling the police and saying, I need to have signs of life for my granddaughter. If Casey doesn't want to bring her around, and she doesn't want me to see her, fine. But I need to know she's okay because I'm worried. And she didn't do that. Yeah. I agree agree with what you said but i'll play devil's advocate just for a second you know she had this big fight with casey choked her allegedly allegedly and she could have been interpreting this like the lack of communication as casey's way of like being like oh you want to threaten to take my kid away from me whatever i'll show you show you. I'm not, I'm going to passively keep her from you. So she could have been interpreting this behavior as,

oh, Casey's punishing me because she knows it hurts me that I'm not seeing Kaylee. And there might've been a thought through Cindy's mind where she's like, if I do a well, because I don't think at that point you're thinking, I think she killed Kaylee. You know what I mean? I don't think she's thinking that. So she might be thinking, which is more reasonable, if she's basically just trying to prove a point and I combat that point by calling police and getting them involved, I'm only going to push her further away and I may never see Kaylee again. So that might have been going through her mind as far as her apprehension, even though I think their intuition, their gut was telling them something was wrong. I just don't think they thought it was this severe at this point. I know. But, you know, sometimes when your gut like is overriding your your logical thought process, like, yeah, she's punishing me. I don't want to like drive further wedge. But at the same time, I'm not sleeping at night. I cannot rest until I at least know Kaylee is OK. Like, you know, and she could have told the police that like, I don't need to see her. I'm not trying to interfere. I just need to know that she's all right and she's healthy and happy and

she's doing okay. And I mean, that would have been my only, like, I would have been tunnel vision on just hearing her voice to know she was okay before I could like continue on with whatever else. Yeah. No, I mean, hindsight, definitely. I agree. I mean, you know, I wish she would have made that call too, but I'm just trying to put myself in her shoes, which is hard, but that maybe she was really concerned that if Kaylee was fine and this was just Casey trying to get back at her, that it could actually have an adverse effect where she would confirm that Kaylee's okay, but she would also be confirming that she wasn't going to see Kaylee anytime soon after calling police. Possibly. Yeah. She may have been trying to placate Casey. Yeah. Well, also on Monday, June 30th, Casey dropped her boyfriend

Tony off at the airport because he was flying to New York to visit with his family and he would be gone for a week. Now, this means that Casey, who didn't have access to her own vehicle because she left it in the Amscot parking lot, she now would have access to Tony's Jeep for that entire week and she used it to drive right over to Ricardo Morales' apartment right after dropping Tony at the airport. She, you know, hung out with her friend Amy there because Amy was living with Ricardo at this point. And then they decided to go to Target and do some shopping. And Casey actually remained at Ricardo's apartment for the rest of that week. Like she spent the night there. She basically

lived there. But Kaylee was never with her. Amy said that while Casey stayed at Ricardo's with her, you know, she would ask Casey, where's Kaylee? What's going on? And Casey would say, you know, she's so busy. Like I'm really upset because I barely got to see her this week, but Kaylee's having fun and I'm so busy with work. So it's all going to work out in the end.

On July 1st, Ricardo Morales woke up and found Casey and Amy chatting in his living room. He sat with them for about five minutes before going to work. Around 10.15 a.m., Casey called her ex-fiancé, Jesse Grund, and asked if she could come over and take a shower at his apartment before she went to work. Jesse said that Casey claimed she had been staying with her boyfriend, Tony, but she was out of town and she didn't have a key, and she couldn't go to her parents' house to shower. Jesse told Casey to come on over and when she arrived, he expected to see Kaylee with her. But when she got there at 10.39 a.m., there was no Kaylee and Jesse claimed that Casey did not look like someone who needed a shower.

He said, quote, She looked normal, cleaned up. She had a bag told her that she had to work until five that night. She also said she was talking to her crazy mother on the phone. Later, Casey went to JC Penney's and got her nails done, and she used her mother's credit card to pay for the service. So at this point, Casey has no money coming in, right? So how is she doing anything, right? She's obviously not putting gas in her car, but she's getting her nails done because

priorities. I was going to say that. It's not going in the gas tank. That's for damn sure. Priorities, you know, you got to have your nails done. And what she was really doing was stealing from everybody because while she's living at Ricardo's, she's stealing money from him. She's using her mother's credit card to get her nails done. So she doesn't have time to talk to these people or give them the time of day, but she has time to use their money without their permission. Now, the next evening, Casey was seen at Miller's Ale House with five male friends. One of them was Brandon Snow.

We talked about Brandon briefly in one of the past episodes. This was the man she'd been messaging. He was like in the military. She said she had missed him and wanted him to come home and take her on a cruise. And on this day, Brandon was on military leave and he'd been able to travel from North Carolina to Florida for a visit. Now on this night, Casey also runs into somebody else, but I'm not going to talk about that right now. That's going to be next episode because it's very interesting. But on this night, Cindy Anthony called Casey eight times in a 24 minute period. None of these calls were answered. So now it's Cindy who's the frantic one. Now it's Cindy who's making multiple back to back phone calls. And I think in a way, this gave

Casey some pleasure that she had her mother scrambling, you know, that that just two weeks earlier had been her making all the phone calls and trying to find help and trying to like connect. And now she kind of felt maybe she had the upper hand in some leverage. And I think she was pleased by that in a way. Definitely possible. Like, hey, you know what? You weren't there when I needed you. Now you can go to voicemail. Yep. So the next day, which was Thursday, July 3rd, Casey got a tattoo on her shoulder. The tattoo said La Bella Vita and the tattoo artist Bobby Williams, who had known Casey for seven years. He claimed that Casey had called a few days ahead of time to make the appointment. And at that time, she had told him that her daughter

Kaylee would be with her. But when she showed up alone, Casey claimed Kaylee was with the nanny. But Bobby Williams said the meaning of the tattoo made sense to him at that point, because when he saw her, Casey seemed really happy. And so he assumed she was living a beautiful life and she wanted to commemorate that on her body. Now, the whole fact of getting a tattoo while your daughter's missing is obviously egregious. But the fact that it says La Bella Vita, the beautiful life, that's even worse, right? Like your daughter's missing. You either A, don't know where she is or you know where she is and you know she's dead.

And this is the tattoo you decide to get on your body. Like what's beautiful about this life without your two year old daughter? What's beautiful about this life where you don't get to wake up and see her happy face and hear her say, I love you, mommy. What's beautiful about that life? You know? Yeah. Regardless, it's all wrong. It's all wrong. And, you know, she's not at this point reported missing. Kaylee, that is. She's not reporting missing. There's no red flags. No one out there looking for her. Nobody's looking for her. So optically to everyone else, it looks normal. It actually looks like maybe what Casey's saying is true. You could, I'm not even giving her an excuse. You could put it on Casey was deliberately doing these things to give off that perception that things were fine because why would she be out there getting a tattoo? You're going to get a tattoo just to make a perception that things are fine.

Pathological liar, man. She does some crazy things. I'm not saying that's the case. I'm just saying she may have thought if I'm sitting in my house crying the whole time, which I don't know if she'd be crying, but if I'm not doing what I would normally do, this may come back where they can start to narrow down the timeline of when I started acting different. So I'm going to continue to act like an idiot and do stupid things.

And that's par for the course. So it won't raise any red flags. But internally, knowing what we know now, knowing what we know about the phone records and about the fact that Zany the Nanny doesn't exist. Um, and how many days have gone by since when we believe the incident occurred, when many people believe the incident occurred, um, to be able to do this, uh, with a straight face just shows how terrible of a human being that Casey Anthony is, regardless of what you believe happened to Kaylee. And you're just making point after point, proving why people have such a dislike,

I hate, if you will, for Casey Anthony. I mean, it's not even, she wasn't even thinking about Kaylee. That's the point. What happened is she gets hooked up with Tony. And if you see pictures of Tony Lozaro, he's got tattoos all over him, right? Not Casey. Casey doesn't have tattoos all over her. All of a sudden she's looking up tattoo ideas. She's got tattoos all over him, right? Not Casey. Casey doesn't have tattoos all over her. All of a sudden, she's looking up tattoo ideas. She's saying, oh, I love tattooed boys. This, this, and that. She's emulating him.

Now she's like helping him with the shot girls. She's a club promoter with him. She's emulating him. Oh, he has tattoos. He likes tattoos. I'll get a tattoo. That's why she got the tattoo. So you're saying the tattoo was for self-serving reasons, not an alibi. Absolutely. Fair enough. Fair enough. So before leaving that

night, the tattoo shop, Casey made an appointment, another appointment to get another tattoo. She made it for July 19th and she promised her tattoo artist, you know, I'll bring Kaylee to this appointment this time. I know you want to see her, you know, et cetera, et cetera. But Casey would be in police custody before she had the chance to get her her second tattoo or the chance to make another excuse to Bobby Williams about why Kaylee wasn't with her. Having some time on her hands because she wasn't working, this was causing Cindy Anthony's anxiety to skyrocket. Basically, all she could do was sit home and think about where Kaylee was. You know, she's surrounded by her toys. She's surrounded by pictures of her, memories of her. And Cindy's mind is like going into a tailspin.

She was constantly calling Casey, asking about Kaylee, but there was always different excuses. And Cindy was beginning to feel that something wasn't right. Now, when Casey finally answered Cindy's call and Cindy was like, where are you? Where's Kaylee? Casey told her mother that she was at work at Universal Studios and Kaylee was actually there as well, enjoying a fun event that had been created for the children of Universal Studios employees. So Cindy was like, all right, let me take matters in my own hands. She decides to drive to Universal Studios and she called Casey from the parking lot. And she's like, I'm here. So where's Kaylee? I want to at least see her. I want to see you. I want to see Kaylee. Where are you guys at? And you would think that at this point, Casey's going to be like, oh, shit, I'm trapped. You know, I'm going to have to produce Kaylee for my mother

or she's never going to go away. But Casey, instead of, you know, thinking, let's come clean. Let's, you know, make this right. She managed to buy herself some more time when she answered Cindy's call and found out where Cindy was, Casey informed her mother there had been a last-minute change of plans. Her ex-boyfriend, Jeff Hopkins, had invited Casey and Kaylee to go with him to Jacksonville, Florida for the 4th of July. They were already in the car on their way there. Cindy was not satisfied with this, but there was nothing she could do at that moment. So So she enlisted the help of Casey's older brother, Lee. The first place Lee started was his sister's MySpace page. And he did this hoping to track her down to any bars or nightclubs she might be at. Because remember,

the entire time that Casey's saying, I'm in Tampa, I'm in this place, I'm in that place, she's still posting on MySpace like, I'm at Fusion tonight. I'm here in Orlando the whole time. And I don't understand why Cindy Anthony didn't take to the internet before this to disprove it because she had already been able to print pictures off of Casey before, but she doesn't use this as a clue. I'm not sure why that might be. But Lee used what he found out on MySpace, and he actually went to a couple of places. And one place he went to, he missed his sister by one minute. She had gotten word somehow that he was out there looking for her and headed to the bar that she was at, so she left.

Lee called Casey often. She didn't answer his calls. So he had his girlfriend call Casey, and Casey did answer the phone. But when the phone was passed to Lee, Casey snapped at him, she got angry, and then she hung up on him. So when Lee reported this back to their mother, Cindy, Cindy took to social media herself to send a message. The MySpace post was titled, My Kaylee is Missing. Cindy listed her mood as distraught. So remember on MySpace, you could have like a profile song, and then every time you posted, you could pick a mood.

Happy, joyful, Cindy was distraught. And here is what the post said, quote, She came into my life unexpectedly, just as she has left me. This precious little angel from above gave me strength and unconditional love. Now she is gone, and I don't know why. All I am guilty of is loving her and providing her a safe home. Jealousy has taken her away. Jealousy from the one person who should be thankful for all the love and support given to her. A mother's love is deep. However, there are limits when one is betrayed by the one

she loved and trusted the most. A daughter comes to her mother for support when she is pregnant. The mother says without hesitation, it will be okay. And it was. But then the lies and betrayal began. First, it seemed harmless. Ah, love is blind. A mother will look for the good in her child and give them a chance to change. This mother gave chance after chance for her daughter to change, but instead, more lies, more betrayal. What does the mother get for giving her daughter all these chances? A broken heart. The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead, she tells her

friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space. No money, no future. Where did she go? Who is now watching out for the little angel? End quote. Yeah, there you go. Right?

This is what I was saying earlier where I was like, maybe it's possible that Cindy's viewing this behavior not as something like is wrong with Kaylee, but Casey is using Kaylee to hurt Cindy, right? This is your punishment for putting your hands on me, for holding me accountable, for threatening to take my child from me. Now I'm keeping you from seeing her. And that's kind of what this post says to me, but it is ironic because she says- Now she's gone and stuff like that. Right.

Yes. And she calls her her little angel. And but I do think just to clarify, so nobody misinterprets what we're saying here. We're not saying that like Cindy knew and was passive, you know, like secretly hiding what she knew. I genuinely think she's spelling it out here because she knows Casey will see it like you're deliberately keeping Kaylee from me to try to hurt me all because I'm trying to do the right thing. Yeah. But there is a little bit of emotional

blackmail in here. And it makes me wonder if this kind of was their dynamic, right? Like this, this kind of guilt tripping, like, you know, you know, a mother that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills. Like if you're trying to mend fences with your daughter at any point, telling the world that everything that was done for Kaylee that was good, that was motherly, was done by you and not Casey, was she interacting with Casey like this throughout their relationship or throughout Kaylee's life? Was she constantly like, well, I'm the one that feeds her. I'm the one that pays her medical bills. You're not even a mother. Stuff like that, that's toxic. And I'm not saying- Yeah, I'm sure she was throwing that stuff in her face too. Yeah, I'm not saying what Casey did was right or what Casey allegedly did was right.

But what I'm saying is this poor communication, this passive aggressive guilt tripping, kind of like throwing everything in someone's face. Because I don't like that when someone does something for someone and then uses that something they did to get something that they want. Like, I did this, so now you got to give me this. So I think that kind of was their dynamic. And I understand how that probably got old pretty quick. She signed up and created this account specifically to leave this message for Casey and for others out in the world to know what was happening. And I would say most likely for others out in the world because she had Casey's number. She was still talking to her. She could have texted her all of this, but she didn't care if Casey saw it. She kind of wanted to make sure that everyone around her knew, you know, Kaylee's not here

and it's not because of me. It's because of Casey. I think it's spot on. I think it's spot on. It was her way. Maybe she was trying to communicate with Casey. She wasn't getting through. So she decided to use the outlet that Casey was so in love with and constantly using for her own reasons. Hey, if this is the way I got to communicate with you, we'll use your medium. Yeah. If this is the only way you listen, you're so obsessed with MySpace. So here I am. And you're very concerned about your perception on social media, right?

You're at the optics. So let me bring you down a notch and tell people that although you're posting all these things about how great your life is. And how great of a mother you are and et cetera, et cetera. Like you're not. Let me bring a little bit of reality to you because your friends aren't going to like this too much. Just a really toxic, problematic, unproductive kind of dynamic here.

Real bad. And that's where we're going to end today. All right. In the next part, you know, Casey finally gets arrested. She has to answer for 30 days of partying and carrying on all while her two-year-old daughter was nowhere to be found. Yeah. No, we're getting to it. Now, I know we came to a lot of conclusions in this episode or where we're leaning. And I think, you know, as you said, we're going to get to the arrest next week. And obviously we'll be talking about the trial. And I do think I'm honing in on what I believe, and I don't think it's any secret to you guys out there who are listening or watching where I'm leaning. The one thing that's

still up and we're not going to have a definitive answer. We'll have an opinion, um, is what happened, you know, was it accidental? Was it intentional? I know how I feel about Cindy and George at this point. I'm pretty locked in on that. I mean, I'm open, but I'm pretty confident about that. And we'll see. We'll keep going and we'll keep dissecting and maybe you guys feel differently. So obviously weigh in the comments if you do, for sure. We want to hear your opinions. Let me ask you a question though, because you came into this case knowing the basics and knowing a pretty good amount about it, but not as deep and as specific as we're getting day by day.

Is what you thought happened or how you felt about it changed since doing this case for the podcast? Yeah, no, definitely. I was on the fence about accidental intentional because I didn't know the details about it. I did hear about the browser search and looking up, I believe it was like chloroform or something like that at one point in a different browser. So I thought that, you know, I was like, oh, maybe she did kill her daughter. And I also was based on the limited information I had. And from, you know, the pictures you see out there of George, I thought it was highly likely that he was involved in it as well. And so I'm glad we did this because I don't feel that way anymore. I really don't. I may not like some of the decisions

he made as a father throughout it, but nobody's perfect. So I'm not here to judge. I've made a lot of decisions that I maybe would do different now if I had the opportunity with, you know, my kids, you're always learning. But I do not think he was involved. So that's my main takeaway from the parents. Jury's still out as far as I'm concerned, as far as whether this was accidental or intentional. Although there are mixed messages, you know, with the journal entry and stuff that may suggest intentional. But like I said, I don't know. We're not prophets here. We can't see, you know, and we also can't see into the past any more than anybody else. So although we'll give an opinion, that's all it really is, is an opinion. And we're kind of trying to fill in the blanks because we don't have all the pieces. If we did, I would hope that

Casey Anthony wouldn't be a free person right now if we did. So that's how she was able to get off. I'm holding out for a deathbed confession. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I feel like this is a big thing and it's a huge thing. Like worldwide, it's a huge thing. You know, everybody knows the name Casey Anthony and that's a lot to like keep to yourself because if this is what happened, like if she knows exactly what happened, which i think we both can agree that she probably knows exactly what happened definitely does she's never told another soul she couldn't right so this is a secret she's kept to herself only herself for so long and she's she's not an old person you know she's got a lot of years left and hopefully as she grows time matures age, maybe get some mortality salience, realizes things about herself. Maybe she will, you know, leave a letter behind telling us all what happened when she when she finally goes to wherever the hell she's going. Probably hell. Yeah, I can definitely see after four parts where the hatred for Casey comes.

And it's not only about what she potentially did to her own daughter, whether again, whether it was accidental or purposeful. It's what she did after the fact. And it's just like there's so much here to dislike. And I think that's where a lot of it comes from. A lot of the passion about her comes from as far as people hating her so much. And I think that's where a lot of it comes from. A lot of the passion about her comes from as far as people hating her so much. And it's warranted. Because it really does look like she killed Kaylee so that she could go and party and be a partier, right? Because that's exactly what she did. She didn't get rid of Kaylee and then spend, like you said, time in her room crying about it. It was like immediately Kaylee's gone.

Now I'm partying every night and I'm calling friends all the time and I'm getting my nails done and I'm getting tattoos and things like that. And not to say people would have sympathy for her, but you're right. If this incident had occurred and then Casey wasn't seen for two, three weeks because she was hiding out at someone's apartment in sweatpants all day and nobody knew why, but she was just constantly crying in her room. I still think people would have a dislike for her, but it wouldn't be like this. But she would clearly be having feelings about the situation that would be more in line with what a normal person would feel, especially if it was an accident, especially if it was an accident. Exactly. And can you imagine this two-year-old,

this beautiful two-year-old baby, Kaylee, she's dead. And Casey's the only one who knows. So I don't know. I mean, obviously this isn't something that's probably relevant, but to me, it's like this little girl was gone and there was nobody grieving for her. And that bothers me. Nobody was able to grieve for her for months. She was alone out in like nature. I mean, animals picked her body apart. The skeleton was all in the whole world is dancing on tables and everyone else thinks that Kaylee's still alive. So there's nobody shedding tears for her during these early days of her being dead. And for some reason that that breaks my heart. It's like Casey not only killed Kaylee allegedly, but then she feel like depersonalized her like she didn't matter. She threw her away. And that's why people hate Casey Anthony. Yeah. And I'll say from, again, from an

investigator's point of view, looking at how she did these things to Kaylee and then kind of went out for a detective, we would look at that as, there's not a lot here that suggests motive, maybe the journal entry, but this behavior after the disappearance of Kaylee is suggestive of motive, right? Why did she do this? That's what the prosecution did. That was their case, basically. Yeah. After this incident occurred, if you're to believe that it was an accident, she didn't act like it was. She acted as if there was a hindrance in her life, in her ability to go out and do these things. And as soon as she removed that burden, right, her daughter, she started conducting herself in the way she always wanted to.

And so even though it's after the fact, and as you said, prosecution ended up going this route, this behavior that occurred after the disappearance is highly suggestive of a motive that this was intentionally an act that was carried out and this was a deliberate homicide. I can see it all day long. Real quick to change gears, and this is going to apply specifically to people watching us on YouTube. Although our audio people out there, the downloads and listens for audio have been unbelievable. We've hit multiple milestones. We're coming up on 5 million downloads for our audio downloads. But more specifically, I just wanted to thank our YouTube audience. At the time of recording this, we'll probably be past it when you see it. But at the time of recording this, we're very close to hitting 100,000 subscribers. I know this is

something that Stephanie, you've already accomplished. So congrats to you. This is the second time you're doing it. But for me, it's my first time and I know it's a big deal and I know that it's not something that's guaranteed. Ultimately, people have to come back every week and watch the content and subscribe to it. And the only real acknowledgement you have is that people subscribe and stick around with you on the journey. So I just want to personally say thank you to everybody for joining us. This will be my first time doing it and it means a lot and we're going to continue to improve and get better and we couldn't do it without your support. So I just wanted to say thank you. Thank you guys so much. And we're really excited about 2022.

We've got things planned. We plan to grow a lot. We plan to make everything easier for you guys. Other ways to get our content, other ways to get our content early if you want. Yeah, people already signed up for Patreon. Yeah, if you haven't signed up for Patreon yet, go ahead and do that because they are demonetizing us left and right on YouTube, on my channel too. It's been a nightmare. So we really do appreciate you guys being here. And at the end of the day, that is what counts. So if When we started, I said, I left it blank for you guys. It'll definitely be going there.

And the milestone to accomplish it in such a short period of time, because we haven't been doing YouTube for a full year yet. So, you know, really, really grateful. That's all I can say. It's a nice, it's the best Christmas present. I can tell you that much. Thank you guys so much. And until next time, well, once again, we don't have an outro.

We don't have anything fancy that we say, but we will see you next week. Bye. Bye.