Crime Weekly - S2 Ep101: Hae Min Lee & Adnan Syed: The Trouble With Jay (Part 7)

Episode Date: November 25, 2022

Bright Cellars is giving Crime Weekly listeners an exclusive Black Friday offer of $50 off their first box and $20 off their second box ($70 value). Take advantage of this limited-time offer by going to https://brightcellars.com/crimeweekly. That’s B-R-I-G-H-T-C-E-L-L-A-R-S.com backslash CRIMEWEEKLY. Bright Cellars, helping you discover wine you’ll love. It was an unseasonably warm January afternoon in Baltimore County, Maryland when 18-year-old Woodlawn High School senior Hae Min Lee left school in her gray 1998 Nissan Sentra and headed out to pick up her six-year-old cousin from kindergarten before going to her job at the local LensCrafters. But sometime after leaving Woodlawn High School and before picking up her little cousin, Hae Min Lee vanished into thin air. Less than a month later, maintenance worker Alonzo Sellers was driving back to his job at Coppin State College and drinking a beer when he realized he had to use the bathroom, and it couldn’t wait. Mr. Sellers pulled over on the side of the road and walked deep into the woods to relieve himself, at which point he made a gruesome discovery. According to his later testimony, Mr. Sellers said quote, “when I looked down I seen something that looked like hair, something that was covered by dirt. And I looked real good again, and that’s when I seen what looked like a foot” end quote. Alonzo Sellers had stumbled upon the body of Hae Min Lee, she had been strangled to death by the bare hands of her attacker, and within a few weeks, the police would make an arrest for her murder. But, the suspect was a person that no one would have suspected capable of such a horrific crime, the ex-boyfriend of Hae, a sweet and smart 17-year-old named Adnan Syed. But, stay with us, because, it’s complicated… Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod Ads: Prose is the healthy hair regimen with your name all over it. Take your FREE in-depth hair consultation and get 15% off your first order today! Go to Prose dot com slash crimeweekly. That’s P-R-O-S-E dot com slash crimeweekly for your FREE in-depth hair consultation and 15% off. When your day is feeling stale, just ask: what will today spin? If you’re 21 or older you can join millions of players around the world. Download Slotomania, the #1 FREE slots game, on the App Store or Google Play Store and get one million free coins. That’s Slotomania on the App Store or Google Play Store for one million free coins. Now, as a special offer, you can get $15 off your purchase of a Skylight Frame when you go Skylight Frame dot com and enter code CRIMEWEEKLY. That’s right. To get $15 off your purchase of a Skylight Frame just go Skylight Frame dot com and enter code CRIMEWEEKLY. That’s S-K-Y-L- I-G-H-T-F-R-A-M-E dot com, promo code CRIMEWEEKLY.

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And I'm Derek Levasseur. So here we are in Episode 7 of the Heyman Lee and Adnan Syed series. And Derek told me before we started recording that I can't make any more episodes, that I only get one more episode, which I wasn't expecting. I wasn't expecting for him to take such a firm stance, but he says people are experiencing the case fatigue that some people are kind of like, all right, we get it, even though there's so much, so much more to talk about. But they get it and they've had it with this case, even though I don't think it's the majority, but that's what Derek says. It's Derek's fault. He says we have to stop. So I get this episode and then one more to wrap everything up. And yay. I will take blame for it. If you guys are mad about us stopping after eight parts,

totally blame me. 100%. I have seen the comments. Stephanie's not wrong. It is the minority of you that are saying, hey, kind of had enough of this case. But for me personally, too, like I feel like I knew nothing about the case. I feel like I know a lot more now. I know that we could probably do 15 parts on this. So personally, I'm kind of ready for something new to kind of get me excited again, where it's like a fresh case and we're kind of breaking it down. I feel like we're covering both sides of this case, the people who feel one way, and then there's people who feel another way. We're trying to be litigious and do our due diligence. And I think for most of you, you feel based on the comments that we have done that. Some of you, it'll never be enough. But yes, I did ask, I didn't tell Stephanie, but I did ask if we could wrap it up within eight parts, because not only

is this going to be the longest episodically, it's going to be, I think a tie actually, but also hours wise, if we do what we've been doing on the last couple of cases in the last couple episodes, we're pushing three hours on most of them. So in total, we're going to have about 24 hours of edited footage that you guys actually see. That's not what we recorded, but that's what you guys are seeing. So 24 hours of audio or video, however you're consuming this. I feel like that's pretty good. I know Stephanie disagrees. We could do more. That's who she is. That's why I love her because she's willing to do another 10 parts. So yeah, if you're upset about that, 100% blame goes to me. Yes, it does. 100% of it. So we are here at the top of episode seven in this series. And that means that one way or the other, for better or for worse, we are coming to the end of it. So I wanted

to take this moment to go over a few things that at this point, I can say for sure, you know, for sure that we know. And I guess there's only one thing. There really isn't much we can say for sure. And that kind of lies the origin of the issues with this case. We don't really know a lot of things for sure. And even throughout this episode, there are things that I still don't understand. And hopefully running them by you guys and running them by Derek will have a little bit better understanding. But honestly, there's only one thing that I can say we know for sure. And correct me if I'm wrong, Derek. But the one thing that I believe we can say for sure is that at one point or another during his interviews with the police, Jay Wilds lied, right? He lied several times.

We know he did. Now, you could say Adnan lied. We don't know that for sure because Adnan just didn't say enough to pin him down. And maybe that was, you know, a benefit to him. He didn't say enough. He didn't specifically say that he remembered enough about that night in order to kind of pin him down and say that for sure 100% he was lying. But let's go back to Jay's first interview with the police on February 28th, where he claimed that Adnan had popped the trunk of Hay's car and showed Jay Hay's body, blue and curled up in that trunk. Jay claimed that this happened on the strip off of Edmondson Avenue. By his March 15th interview, Jay was claiming that both the murder and the trunk pop happened in the best buy parking lot and obviously

the police did question jay about his changing story and his response was that he had lied about the location of the trunk pop in his first interview because he was concerned that the parking lot of best buy might have surveillance cameras and this stuck out to me as an honest statement, not a good statement, but an honest one. If what Jay was telling the detectives was true, that Adnan alone abducted and killed Hay, and Jay simply became a part of the story after Hay's death, why would he be concerned about security cameras in the Best Buy parking lot? Because those cameras would just give support to the story he was already telling. You know, it's not as if he was being approached by the police, and they were asking him about his involvement, and he kind of like minimized his involvement in

it to zero, so he wouldn't even want them to see that he was there helping Adnan or, you know, helping him get rid of the body. Jay told the police that he saw Hay's body in the trunk of her car. Why would it matter where that happened, right? I think that the fact that he said he was scared of the surveillance cameras is very telling. I think if the trunk pop happened in the parking lot of Best Buy, and that is a big if, which we're going to talk about in this last episode, which is the next episode that we finally have to wrap things up in, if it happened there in the Best Buy parking lot. The reason that Jay would be worried about cameras is, one, he was

more involved with Hay's death than he claimed to be, or two, he was mainly responsible for Hay's death, whether he did it alone, which I don't believe, or with another person. And maybe Adnan wasn't there at all. So he wouldn't want the police to look at the surveillance cameras and see that it was just Jay and maybe a buddy of Jay's or just Jay without Adnan. That's the only reason I can think of why he would lie and say the trunk pop happened someplace else when it actually happened in the parking lot of Best Buy. Yeah, I agree. I'm not going to reiterate what you just said. I think he did lie multiple times, and that's been proven by whatever side of the aisle

you're on. So I think even the police know that he was lying. So definitely agree. And I also can't prove it, but, you know, so I want to say this isn't one of those things we know for sure. But I have a strong feeling that Jay Wilds was not at Jen Pusateri's house on that afternoon, at least not for as long, he said. I would say he wasn't there at all because we've gone over the timeline. You know, the time he claims to be there at non-cell phone, which he was in possession of, was moving

all over the place. And the cell phone called Jen's home during that time. And why would Jay call Jen at home if he was at her home? And if I'm being honest, the only thing we can be sure of is that Jay lied during his interviews. Maybe he lied because he was afraid of surveillance tapes at Best Buy. But later in 2014, Jay sat down and gave an exclusive interview to The Intercept, and he had changed his story again, even from the many changes he'd already made throughout his police interviews and trials. And this is the article that you had read before we started this series. I'd actually never read that article before, because by the time it came out in 2014, I had already listened

to Serial, and I was kind of like sure of what happened. And I also remember listening to Serial and not being sure of Adnan's guilt, but being sure that Jay was a liar who changed his story a lot. And maybe like he was just going to tell a different story in this new interview, which is basically what he did. So Jay was asked, quote, when Adnan loaned you his car on January 13th, 1999, did he tell you it was because he planned on murdering Hay? End quote. Now we know because we've gone over this. Jay has already said several times that Adnan had told him he planned on murdering Hay. Not only that, but in one of his stories, he said they went shopping at Walmart that morning so they could plan it. But here in this interview, Jay responds, quote, No, I didn't know that he planned to murder her that day.

I didn't think he was going to go kill her. We were in the car together during last period. He was ditching last period. And I said, hey, I need to run to the mall because I need to get a gift for Stephanie. He said then, no, I got to go do something. I'm going to be late for practice. So just drop me off. Take my car. Take my cell phone. I'll call you from someone else's phone when I'm done, end quote. And this is very interesting because although it's a somewhat different story,

Jay does mention that they were sitting in the car together during last period because Adnan was skipping that class, and then he brought Adnan back to school. Although Adnan did not miss his last class, psychology, he was very late to it and this matches with Jay's intercept story. But the fact that Adnan didn't tell him prior to the, you know, come get me call that he was going to kill Hay, that is a very big change. In most of his other stories, in all of his other stories, it was the night before he was calling him saying, you know, he was going to do something and then the morning of, and then many times to the point where Jay was able to tell Jen, even before January 13th, that he thought Anon was going to do something to Hay.

Yeah. Didn't he say something along the lines of, I'm going to, I'm going to kill that bitch, like in the car. So it wasn't like he laid out the whole plot according to Jay in the first, in the first version that he gave, but he did say, hey, he told me that he was going to do it. And then I'm going to call you and you're going to come and pick me up. So by that second version, by the March 15th, I believe it was, interview, Jay was giving many more details. The Intercept also asked Jay if the first time he had seen Hay's body was at the Best Buy. And Jay said, quote, no, I saw her body later in front of my grandmother's house where I was living. I didn't tell the cops it, in front of my grandmother's house where I was living. I didn't tell the cops it was in front of my house because I didn't want to involve my grandmother. I believe I told them it was in front of Kathy's house, but it was in front of my grandmother's house. I know it didn't happen anywhere other than my grandmother's house.

I remember the highway traffic to my right, and I remember standing there on the curb. I remember Adnan standing next to me, end quote. So the interviewer who was as confused as I was, because we all have the story in our head that Jay saw Hayes' body in the Best Buy parking lot or, you know, Edmondson Avenue, the strip. But he saw her body pretty early on in the day, around like, you know, four-ish, between, I guess you would say like three and four. He saw her body at that point, but now he's saying he didn't see her body until later that night. So the interviewer says, okay, let's back up. What happened when you first arrived at Best Buy to

pick up Adnan? And Jay replied, quote, I pick him up. He doesn't have any car with him. Like he's not in a car or anything, end quote. So the interviewer asked Jay, okay, well, where was Hay's car? Was it in the Best Buy parking lot? And Jay responded, quote, Hay's car could have been in the parking lot, but I didn't know what it looked like, so I don't remember. When I picked him up at Best Buy, he's telling me her car is somewhere there and that he did this in the parking lot. But that, according to what I learned later, is probably not what happened. Wherever her car was at the time I picked him up from Best Buy, I probably stayed here until he picked me up later that evening, end quote. So now we're hearing a very different story that when Adnan called Jay and said, come get me, Jay doesn't see Adnan with a car. He sees Adnan standing in a parking

lot alone, and he doesn't know where Hay's car is. And so this is when Jay claimed to The Intercept that he and Adnan drove over to Kathy's house to smoke. We're going to talk about Kathy later. He claimed that Kathy was there along with three other people, Jeff, Laura, and Jen. And once again, this is different than his original story. In this interview with The Intercept, Jay claims that this was where Adnan told him that Hay was dead. And he only admitted this to Jay after Officer Adcock called Adnan while they were at Kathy's. At that point, Adnan panicked and told Jay what happened. Jay said, quote, I say, well, we need to part ways. I don't remember if he dropped me off of my house or if I got a ride from somebody

else, end quote. So Jay says he's back home after Adnan confesses to killing Hay while they're at Kathy's. He's at home and he's like thinking about this and he's trying to like collect himself. He's feeling guilty. He's trying to come to terms with it. And then Jay said, quote, I don't know whether he calls me when he's on his way back to my house or if he calls me right outside the house. He calls me and says, I'm outside. So I come outside to talk to him

and followed him to a different car, not his. He said, you gotta help me or I'm gonna tell the cops about you and the weed and all that shit. And then he popped at the trunk and I saw Hay's body. She looked kind of purple, blue. Her legs were tucked behind her. She had stockings on.

None of her clothes were removed. Nothing like that. She didn't look beat up. End quote. First part of this, the story changing, it could be just flat out Jay's a liar. He's making it up as you go. But I also think a contributing factor could be the fact that this is after there's been a trial, right? So he's hearing different statements from different people. He's hearing timelines. And so he's remembering, let's say for a second that Jay's telling the truth as far as he remembers it. And he was wrong. Like he truly thought those were the dates and the times. And he's like, shit, my times are off. I just didn't know the right time So I guessed and now I see that the times I gave Were definitely inaccurate based on what what I now know so he's trying to play detective himself and figure out

Oh, it must have been at this time So he's changing a little bit of his story to be more in line with what the prosecution laid out which obviously Doesn't look good for J Right and then the other element of it, without giving away, I'm going to save it for part eight, but whether you believe Jay is telling the truth or not, if you're in the camp that Jay was involved in some way with Adnan, Jay's trying to minimize his involvement. I don't think Jay's telling the truth. And I think part of the reason Jay's story gets convoluted is because he's trying to minimize his involvement. I don't think Jay's telling the truth. And I think part of the reason Jay's story gets convoluted is because he's trying to

minimize his involvement. Again, if you believe that the majority of what he's saying is true, that Adnan and Jay did this together, I personally would be in the camp of Jay knew more than he's letting on to us. He wasn't some victim at home trying to process things and then kind of being blackballed or blackmailed to help Adnan just so Adnan wouldn't rat him out to the police. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So I think that's also why Jay's story can get mixed up from time to time because he's trying to paint a picture that gives him the least amount of

responsibility as possible, which I've seen in other cases that I've worked on where we get a co-conspirator and they're trying to play like they're helping me. And then when I finally get the main accomplice, when they realize that they're done, they rat their boy or girl out real fast and say, that person helped me split the cash between us. That person was the driver of the bank, whatever it was, where there's a lot more involvement than they initially told me. So this isn't unheard of in other cases that I've worked where you get into one person, they try to spin it like they basically weren't even there. And by the time you get all the pieces together, you see that they were a big contributing factor to the overall crime.

All right. So what you're saying is allegedly, theoretically, Jay and Adnan did basically everything together. And Jay maybe came to a point where he was like, well, man, I guess I got to throw him under the bus before he throws me under the bus, because who are the cops going to believe like me, this drug dealer who lives in the ghetto or Adnan, this honor student, magnet student, you know, never been in trouble with the law. Who are they going to believe if he decides to throw me under the bus? So I've got to get the jump on this. However, he obviously doesn't want to admit to the police or the authorities that he was responsible equally for Hay's death. So when he's lying, it's because he's trying to find a way to tell

that story while erasing his part in it, which makes it sound like it doesn't add up and there's holes in it and the timelines don't work because the timelines don't work if he's erasing his part in it. And at the end of the day, what's Adnan now going to do? Adnan can't come forward and say, Jay's a liar. He was there with me the whole time because then Adnan would have to admit that he too was involved with this murder. So it leaves everybody in a position where it's like, you're all lying, but nobody's actually going to come out and tell the truth because you both were equally responsible, allegedly, theoretically. Absolutely. Just a theory. And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And if you really think about it, if this were the case

Jay could have came forward and talked to police voluntarily with without any type of solicitation, however, if we're to believe Jen Jay didn't really come forward until Jay found out that cops had went to Jen and Jen's like, oh god They got me on phone records there. They're talking about. And Jen's like, oh God, they got me on phone records. They're talking about you. And he's like, yep, send them my way. Cause he knows now as much as I wanted to distance myself from this, Jen can't lie for me completely. She's going to, she's going to have to admit that she spoke to me and that there was things that she saw. Otherwise she's going to be in a lot

of trouble. So now he's automatically in defense mode again, just a theory But that would be the reason why he ultimately decided to rat out at night It wasn't like he wanted to clear his conscience as soon as Jen got pinged and they were going after her He knew it was just a matter of time before they came after him So I agree with you there and that's I think He didn't come forward like out of the goodness of his heart because he was feeling guilty What happened here is the cell phone technology was very, very new at this time. And I just don't think that any of these people involved knew how much law enforcement could find out from your cell phone, even your pager, right? I mean, Adnan, this was a cell phone that he had for the first time.

Most kids had pagers at this time. They didn't have cell phones. So Jay probably didn't realize that calling Jen from Adnan's phone were going to send the police in Jen's direction, which then is automatically going to send them in Jay's direction because Jen and Adnan are not friends. There's no connection between Jen and Adnan, but there's a connection between Jen and Jay. So now maybe the police go to Adnan and they say, hey, who's this Jen person that you were calling, you know, several times? And Adnan says, well, you know what? I don't know Jen, but Jay knows Jen. And now all of a sudden Adnan doesn't even really have to say much.

The police are going to Jay. So Jay's trying to get the jump on that. Jay's trying to get ahead of the story and ahead of the curb. And I think that's absolutely probably what happened theoretically, allegedly. Yeah. And it makes perfect sense because some people might be like, well, why didn't they just go talk to Jay first? Why Jen first? Well, remember, the phone calls that we're talking about were made from Adnan's phone. So they don't know Jay and they wouldn't know Jay unless they spoke to Jen first. So they're just seeing the calls that Adnan made and they're going down the list. And like you just said, once they get to Jen, she's going to say, well, those calls that you're talking about that

I didn't speak to Adnan, I don't really know him, but my friend Jay was calling me from that number. So he knows Jen's got to dime him out to some degree and say, Jay was calling me that entire time. So Jay's like, oh, yeah, send him my direction. Well, no, right? Because Jen has the police at her door and she's like, oh, shit. And then she goes to Jay and she's like, what am I supposed to tell them? I don't know it, none. And I have to tell them why this dude's calling me and I'm going to have to tell them that it was you.

And Jay's like, OK, yeah, OK, yeah. Tell them, tell them it was me and then I'll take care of it from care of it from there. He doesn't, he knows he didn't come forward. It really was like, you're in a, you're between a rock and a hard place. You don't have a choice, but to put your side of the story and build your narrative before it not has a chance to get his word in. Right. And think about the psychology of it. He's telling her, yeah, send them my way. And he's probably telling police when they first talked to him hey i told her to you know she talked to me quickly and i told her to tell i want to talk to you guys i was hoping that you were going to track me down i've been scared thank you for saving me and all this i have a lot to tell

you so he's trying to spin it like i it was just a matter of time before i came and spoke to you guys anyways because i was feeling really bad about this whole situation. So thank you for tracking Jen down and getting to me. Let's figure this out together. That's the spin he's going to put on it because he wants to help, obviously, Stephanie. He's the victim. Yeah, let's put this behind us now. We've got to put a lid on this investigation. I'll help you. I'll fill in all the blanks. Yeah. Real quickly, we talk about this being a theory. And yeah, you could say that as far as Adnan's concerned, because there is a possibility, a strong possibility that it's not Adnan. But these are the questions you have to ask yourself, because I do think a lot of what we're saying as far as Jay's concerned, this is coming from his mouth, not ours. He's saying these

things happened. He's saying he saw Hay's body. he's saying he helped bury her this isn't guesses by us he's giving guilt knowledge to the police as far as how he was killed that he wouldn't know unless he was involved in some way shape or form so I think the main takeaway you can grab from this is one way or another Jay Wilds was involved in Hayes death it's just a matter of did he do it alone or was there someone else? And if you don't believe it was Adnan, then you start to, you have to start to ask yourself, who could that person be? Could it be Don that he worked with? No, he didn't even know Don. So it's not Don. Was it Alonzo Sellers? Nope. From what we understand, he didn't have a relationship with him. Was it Bilal? What

type of relationship did Bilal have with Jay? Maybe there's something there because Jay and Adnan were friends. Maybe there is a friendship there. We don't know. So those are the questions you have to start asking yourself when you think about other potential suspects. There has to be some type of relationship, even if it's minimal, to Jay Wilds. If they did this together and Adnan wasn't involved. So I do think that is an important element that you have to consider when you're talking about the other person, the co-conspirator, if there was one other than Jay and I'm going to get into my theory about Jay and being the sole offender in this in part eight because I do think there's some some good stuff there but you have a theory that it was him alone because I don't think he could have possibly done it alone. Nope. I have a theory as to why it doesn't make sense and how to, and how to break that down, but we'll save it for them. But that was just something I wanted to bring up because there's a lot to take in here and to consume. And there's some things that we're saying are theory theoretical and they are, but I don't think it's very, I don't think it's a hard

thing to say that Jay Wilds was involved in Heyman Lee's death and that that's a verifiable fact. Again, he was found guilty of it. He admitted to it. This is in the records. We're not making this up. So it's Jay alone or Jay with someone else. And it does sound like it's Jay with someone else. Who that person is, you be the judge. TBD.

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. So we're back. And in the Intercept interview, they basically ask him, like, why would you help Adnan? You know, this is the big question that everybody has, that everybody's asked Jay. And honestly, I think the response he gives is lackluster and bullshit, but I'll tell you what he said. So Jay said, quote, I'm still thinking inner city black guy selling pot to high school kids. The cops are going to fry me. They're going to pin me to the fucking wall. I had cops show up and harass me before at my house. I told Adnan that I wouldn't touch her car or any of her possessions. And I say, fuck it. I'll help you dig a hole.

At the time, I was convinced that I would be going to jail for a long time if he turned me in for drug dealing, especially to high school kids. I was also running drug operations for my grandmother's house, so that would ruin her life too. I was also around a bunch of people earlier that day at Kathy's, and I didn't want them to get fucked up with the homicide, end quote. So Jay claims that after he agreed to help Adnan, Adnan left his house with the car and the body and then returned several hours later closer to midnight in his own car. He returned without shovels or tools and he asked Jay if Jay had shovels. So Jay went inside and got some gardening tools. He literally says gardening tools. I don't know why.

He says he went inside to get gardening tools. They both got into Adnan's car. And then Jay asked, where are we going? And Adnan said, quote, didn't you say everyone gets dumped in Leakin Park? End quote. And it was funny. It's not funny, but you know, you got to find humor in this somewhere. In the Intercept interview, Jay's like, oh, did I say that to him? He says this is his thought process that's going on after Adnan says this. And he's like, yeah, like drug dealers and their victims. But like, damn, why did I ever say that to him? And it's this very dramatic, like inner monologue that he's having. I think that this whole this whole

story is bullshit. I don't think that all of this happened at midnight and and all of that. But we'll talk about that in a minute. And just to kind of go back to what we're saying right there, this is a perfect example of it, where what's saying i guess could be true but also a simpler explanation is he told adnan initially hey man if we're going to do this leakin park it is that's where they bury all the bodies and adnan's like okay perfect that's it could be as simple as that but he's not going to say that that doesn't make him look good that makes him an accomplice to a murder right so he's got to spin it where adnan says to him well didn't you say this is leaking parks the spot it's just a play on words uh curses why did i say that to him yeah it's just it's like trying to

soften the landing a little bit there's some truth in what he's saying just like the the shed you talked about the gardening tools it could have been more so so, Adnan, go by my spot. I got tools over there we can use. Right? So not saying that's, we don't have anything to verify that. These are his words. And we have to always question what he's saying. Because as Stephanie said at the top of the show, Jay's been proven to be a liar. His motive behind that lying, you guys decide. But he's definitely a verifiable liar. There's so many lies they have to be because they can't all be true. But the truth is buried in there somewhere.

I do believe that. I believe that amongst several police interviews, testifying at two different trials, testifying at a grand jury, and then giving an interview to The Intercept. And also, I believe he may have spoken to Sarah Koenig of the Serial podcast. I can't remember. But all of these little things, if you put them all together and sort of like Rubik's Cube them, I think you'll have the truth there. It's just so much lies that you'll never be able to decipher. But it's in there. Yeah.

At this point, he's told so many variations of it, he probably doesn't even remember the real truth because good liars always find a way to actually believe their own bullshit. That's why they're good liars. Yeah, and this is 2014, so it's 15 years. 15 years after this happened, right? How many times has he told this story?

Yeah, and to how many different people, right? So he may be just like Frankensteining this thing together because at this point, like, what are they going to do to me? I've told so many different stories and 8 p.m., but now they're not doing it until midnight. And he specifically said to the police like, oh, yeah, it was still light enough. Like I couldn't count change in my hand or I was dark enough where I couldn't count change in my hand, but I could still see enough. You know, those are pretty specific details to remember to where 15 years later, you're not even burying her until like after midnight. It's just it doesn't make any sense. And at this point, I think he's just probably and when he gave this intercept interview, you know, he's a married man. He's got children. He owns a home. You know, he's apparently an upstanding citizen, contributing member of society. And he's still

telling stories. And I mean, unless this is the absolute correct story but in that case you could say that Adnan's entire case was a farce because you were operating on a completely different timeline the prosecution was operating on a completely different timeline for that case and that's Jay's fault so for him to be very cavalier in 2014 and saying this new story with this completely different timeline, it's just very, it's problematic. And it's almost like he doesn't even realize what a problem it is. And to be fair to the people who are on Team Adnan, this is a strong argument. This guy is just proven to not be truthful. So you could say, hey, if he's lying about this, why can't he be lying about that? Why can't he be making up the whole thing?

And I get where you're coming from. My take on it is there's things that he is saying that he would not know unless he was there or talk to someone who was there. That's solely what I'm basing this on. The guilt knowledge that he provided before it was even known by the police, including but not limited to the location of her vehicle, tells me with a high degree of certainty that he had firsthand knowledge of this, whether it was because he personally experienced it or spoke to someone directly who had personally

experienced it. That's what I'm basing this off of. I'm not saying he's not a pathological liar. I'm just saying there is some truth that you have to decipher between what he's saying to figure out what that is. But there is some truth in my opinion. So in my opinion, he definitely was there. This is not someone told him because why would he place himself there if he wasn't? He wouldn't do that. He wouldn't put himself in jeopardy. He's a kid. For all he knows, they're going to slap the cuffs on him at any minute and they're not going to believe him because he does have this guilt knowledge. Why wouldn't he just say, someone told me, but I'm scared. I was never there. And I wasn't there, but someone did tell me, but I don't want to tell you who told me because I'm scared for my life and

I don't trust police and this, this and that. And that's a completely different ballgame then. He doesn't want to necessarily insert himself. If he wanted to insert himself, he would have gone to the police before they were sniffing around Jen. But the only reason he talked to the police was because he knew they were getting close. So he definitely was there. To me, that's indisputable. And I also will say, besides the story he tells, there are certain things that still make it look like Adnan may have been involved. The fact that Adnan gave him his car and phone all make it look like Adnan may have been involved. The fact that Adnan gave him his car and phone all day, that was Adnan's idea. Jay didn't ask

him to do that. Even Adnan says it was his own idea. The fact that Adnan has all of these alibis, but not really because none of them are confirmed. The cell phone records, even the times that Adnan claims to be in possession of the cell phone, the cell phone's in places that he wasn't supposed to be. So when it comes to being team Adnan, I'm with you because Jay is a liar. And based on Jay's testimony, this should have never gone to trial, ever, because the dude couldn't keep his story straight. So I'm with you there. But I'm not necessarily with you 100% where I'm like, there's no possible way Adnan could have been involved because there's just too much that makes it look like he may have been.

But that's just my opinion, allegedly. That's right. Then you also have that call at 3.32 PM where allegedly, according to Nisha, Adnan calls Nisha and Jay's in the car with him or wherever they were. So that puts them together around the time when Jay would have been alone. So that's also not a great thing for Adnan. It's not. And I mean, you could say, oh, she was thinking of the wrong day. I could not at this point count on my toes and fingers how many alleged things happened that looked bad for Adnan where, you know, his supporters have come out and been like, well, it didn't happen that day because look at this, this, and this.

And that's great. I mean, that's what attorneys are supposed to do, to be honest. If that's your defense attorney, give them a raise because they're working hard for you and they're finding probable, or they're finding reasonable doubt. They're finding alternate options

of what could have happened. Nisha wasn't thinking of that day, she was thinking of a different day. And he didn't have, you know, the photo shoot on that day. It was a different day. And he didn't have a basketball on that day. It was a different day. And there's a million. There's more in this episode we're talking about right now. So it's just there's a lot of those. And they could all be 100 percent accurate, but it still doesn't prove that he didn't do it. It just proves that she wasn't thinking of that day or they weren't at Kathy's house on that day or things like that.

Or, hey, didn't, you know, go to a basketball game that day. It just proves that everything's muddled and everything's not clear and the timeline is not concrete. It doesn't prove who is or isn't responsible for this murder. Right. concrete. It doesn't prove who is or isn't responsible for this murder. Right. And I don't think I tried to say it the way you just said it last episode. And I don't think as I was listening back to it, it wasn't that clear. But after last episode, there was an even better example. And the example was with Asia McClain, where we had said that maybe she got the days wrong as far as the winter storm and all those things. And a lot of people are quick to say, no, you're wrong. She's a hundred percent accurate. It did happen that day,

exactly the way she's saying it because of this, this, and this, but those same people will say, no, niche is definitely wrong. It had to be some other day because of this, this, and this. So it's a classic example of comp confirmation bias. And all we're saying is that's fine. If you want to dispute it by giving facts around it, that, that may support your theory, that's fine, but you have to paint everyone with the same brush where it could be true for all or true for none. And as long as you're doing that, which is what we're trying to do, we're fine with it. Cause we are acknowledging that maybe Nisha is wrong, but we're also at the same time acknowledging that maybe Asia's Asia's wrong as well. So that's,

that's what we're trying to do here where we're not going to give someone an out and not the other person. That's all I was trying to say last week. You know, when you were telling me about a commenter who said something about two twin sisters coming forward and claiming that Asia McClain had told them that she was going to give it not an alibi because she thought he was innocent yeah yeah you want me to read the quote yeah sure so i didn't verify this this is one of our commenters you guys can research it you can debate it in the comments maybe it's completely wrong but i'll just read the whole thing uh it basically says great episode i was a little surprised that no mention was made of the twin sisters who came forward to state after judge welch vacated

adnan's conviction the first time these sisters had been classmates of asia in 1999 they say that asia told them in 1999 that she was going to give adnan a false alibi because she believed he was innocent when these sisters learned that asia was going to testify at Adnan's 2016 probable cause, this person put PCR, but it's probable cause hearing to the false alibi, they confronted her on Facebook. When Judge Welch issued his decision in late June of 2016, the sisters went to the AG and both gave affidavits to what they knew these affidavits and the Facebook messages were included in a state brief to the courts that summer so it does sound like there's some credibility to it if you're gonna

believe us that it was actually documented and would that be significant if these two impartial witnesses both stated Asia told us she was gonna create an alibi for Adnan and they were willing to go on record saying that. I think most people would consider that significant. But I had never heard about that until this commenter here. And I'm not going to say their name, but I also didn't delete the comment. So you can go find it. They put it publicly. So I'm assuming they don't care.

But that's something, too, that is very, very an interesting piece of information, if true. And I didn't mention it because I had never heard of that before. I had not read that anywhere. And like, listen, I've been really making my way through these case files, these transcripts, I am spending hours and hours with this case every day, every night. I'm up real late with this case. And still, I don't know and haven't come across everything. And I probably never will because Derek's making me stop. But anyways, that just goes to show you that there's so much out there. Let's just do an episode on the twin sisters. Let's just do a part on that. If you pulled the curtain aside and you looked deeper, you'd find things that didn't really necessarily fit with your personal bias

on this case. But a lot of people don't want to do that because they're comfortable believing what they believe because it's what they want to believe. And that's fine. And they're set in their ways. A lot of people are set in their ways. Once they make a decision, they're sticking to it. And that's fine. We're not trying to make you think any differently. But we are digging a little deeper because honestly, I think that the Undisclosed podcast did amazing work, amazing work. But I also think that they're biased. And that's just a fact. You've got Rabia, who basically Adnan was a brother to her. They were family. You wouldn't expect her to be, you know, willingly airing out things that made him look guilty, the same that I wouldn't for my brother. So it's just understandable that people get close to things and they have biases. And you can't just listen to that and be like, I know everything. Because as I'm going to

show you in this episode, there are things that were held back because they didn't look great. So let's let me ask you a question, Stephanie. And this is no shade on anyone. This is this is a way of Human behavior. I would be the same way you have to ask yourself Why did rabia decide to take this case on so vigorously because before she even looked at a single thing? She felt that adnan was not capable of doing this. She was like there's no way he did it. There's no way So she's going into it feeling that way. Now, if there was something overt that just proved that she was wrong, I think, I don't know her, but I believe she would have backed off and said, oh my God, there's video or something that shows he did it. I'm not going any further with this. He clearly did it. But going into it on that mindset that he was innocent

and not having anything concrete that proved otherwise, it allowed her to keep going. So it's not a bad thing. As you said, she's going in there fighting for her brother's best friend, operating under the assumption that there's no way he was capable of doing something like this. So obviously, yeah, naturally there is a bias there. And all I would say for us, and this is just being honest with you guys, there's no skin in the game for us. Whether Adnan is innocent or guilty, it really doesn't affect us. Ultimately, we're still telling the case the way we're telling it. It's not like we're pitching a book idea where we prove Adnan did it. We don't care. Frankly, we just want whoever killed Heyman Lee to be held responsible for what they did. Period. Don't care if it's Adnan, Jay or Bozo the clown. We just don't care. So we're coming at it from a perspective where it doesn't matter to us. Not saying you should believe us over anybody else, but that's that's just what it is. Yeah. And when you're close to somebody,

even if you do see things that don't look so great, you might unconsciously explain them away and be like, oh, this doesn't look great, but I know this person and I know they're a good person and I know they couldn't have done this. So this just looks bad, but isn't bad. And let me see how I can do some courtroom antics to spin this and make it look not so bad, or maybe just minimize it and not talk about it and not bring it to the forefront. That's normal. We do those things for our family members, for our children, for our siblings, where they do things that aren't great and somebody else will call them on it. And you'll be like, well, yeah, I'm going to explain this and justify it because this is somebody I care about and I don't want you to think badly of them. It's completely normal. Happens every day in court. I can't tell you how many cases that I've

been on where we have someone who's murdered someone or was selling, you know, kilos of cocaine right in front of a school. And the lawyer will spend 20 minutes explaining how the reason they were doing this was to feed their family at whatever it might be just to try to soften their, their reasoning behind doing it. When, when the facts are indisputable, they'll focus on character, you know, trying to soften up the jury to give them a lighter sentence. So I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. That's part of the judicial system. So yeah, you're, you're nailing it. It's a hundred percent the way it is. And I don't necessarily disagree with it. Look at Chris Watts mother, man. I mean, the evidence was there. We all knew it.

And this woman was like, not my Christopher. He's the sweetest boy in the world. Like you love somebody, you don't see them clearly sometimes. And that's just that on that. I'm sorry. That's it. So I don't think that, you know, Rabia purposely went in this like, oh, I'm going to, you know, illuminate some things and maybe subdue some things. But I think that it may have happened and it doesn't make her not an amazing woman or not a smart woman or not a badass lawyer, because clearly, I mean, she is. Yeah, I would let her represent me. standards where we expect them to be perfect, but you also have to go into the Undisclosed podcast understanding that for what it is. And that's we're trying to sort of like show the other side. All right.

So before we continue on, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. OK, so Jay in the Intercept interview, he basically says like, you know, I've been beaten up by the police and I was just this kid that nobody, this drug dealer kid that nobody was going to believe. And this was, like we said, 2014, 15 years after this happened. But Jay did say something similar in his second police interview to the detectives when they asked him why he chose to help Adnan if he wasn't involved in Hay's murder. In the transcript, Detective Ritz says, quote,

He said he was going to kill her. He despises her. The relationship is over. You know here you have information. Something's going to take place. Whether you believe it or not, you kind of believe it. And you do absolutely nothing? End quote.

Jay responded to Detective Ritz, quote, Number one, I kind of believed him. You're right. Because people shoot off at the breeze all the time. I'm going to kill you. I mean, if that was the case, I'd be dead five times over now. Number two, it had just been like a couple of weeks before I got my ass kicked by a cop for no reason. And a couple days after that, I got beat up again. So, I mean, I wasn't like about to just walk up in a police station and be like, oh, hey, here's what's about to go down, end quote. Detective Ritz is like, OK, maybe you wouldn't go to the police, but maybe like a clergyman or some kind of official or authority figure. And Jay responds, quote, Adnan knew a lot of things about like to the effect of criminal activities, end quote. And Detective Ritz is like, come on, man, you're selling weed. Like, it's not that serious. And Jay responds that if he had gone to the police and said, hey, this honor student, Adnan, is going to kill his ex-girlfriend, Adnan would have told the police, I don't know what he's talking about. He's crazy. But also, he's a drug dealer. And here's where he gets his product from. And here's who he deals with. and he's got this long rap sheet. Detective Ritz responded, you've only been arrested once.

And Jay replied, quote, on the records one time, but I got my ass kicked plenty of times after that one arrest, plenty of time. Dogs sicced on me, frisked down in front of my own house with fucking gunpoint, helicopters and shit with keys in my hand, and a name tag that says Jay Wilds on it, you know what I mean. It's not, it's not just, you know, I mean, seriously, man, I've been coming home. Some people whipped out guns, made me lay in the street in the snow, walked into my own house just so they can say I was the wrong dude. You know what I mean?

End quote. I don't really know what he means. Helicopters with keys in his hand and a name tag that says Jay Wilds on it. I think he's saying he doesn't trust the police and they've come at him for no reason before and kind of tried to pin other things on him. So he just didn't want to get involved. I think that's what he's saying. And that if it came down to his word or Adnan's word, the police would believe Adnan. Yeah. And I think he was saying also those events that he's talking about as far as helicopters, what I'm sure there's some exaggeration there, but if he wasn't ultimately charged with anything, there may not be a record of him being held at gunpoint for a crime he didn't commit. Police wouldn't want that on record now, would they? So they're going to omit the fact that that happened and continue on with their investigation to try to find the right guy. So there could be truth to that where he's had

numerous run-ins with police where he's being mistreated unfairly even though he has he's committing a criminal act on a daily basis by selling weed and so yeah and this is an uncommon thing by the way not even seeing it's unwarranted there is a lot of people in these especially in the community I used to work in where they just don't trust police because of things they personally experienced or things their friends or family members experienced. So when police are looking for help in regards to a case, they're not as willing to come forward because one, they think that they could be pinned on them. And two, they don't trust the police not to share the information that they've told them and they end up getting labeled as a snitch.

So this is a very common thing in law enforcement and it's a barrier to entry for us when we need the community to help solve a case. So what he's saying here is not something that's out of left field. And it does make sense why he wouldn't have gone to the police before Heyman Lee was murdered, because at this point he's like, yeah, I kind of think he might be telling the truth, but also I kind of think he might just be blustering. So why am I going to put myself out there and put myself on the line when something hasn't even really happened yet? But then after she's dead, you'd think that at that point, if he was being honest with himself and with the police, he may have come forward at that time because he might have information, but he didn't do that either because now he's scared of Adnan and he's scared that Adnan's going to tell the police where he gets his drugs from and it's going to pull his grandmother into it and this, this and that.

And this could very well be true because we once again have to remember Jay was only 19 years old at this time. He's a kid. He doesn't really know. I mean, he puts himself out there like he's a hardened criminal. But if you talk to his teachers at Woodlawn High School, they were like, Jay was the sweetest. Like he was kind of a nerd, you know, he was, you know, kind of like alternative in a way. And he was really just a nice kid. Like nobody referred to him as this like bad criminal element of Woodlawn, which is what he always refers to himself as. But maybe he thought that's how others saw him.

At this point, he's 19. He doesn't know what's going to happen. And maybe he's just playing it safe. Because I don't think he was as hardened of a criminal as he tried to make himself seem. Because if he was, then he would know. No one's going to go crazy trying to catch you for selling a dime bag here and there to high school students. No one's going to bring a helicopter in and to put to put you in a sting you know situation unless he was doing way more than we thought he was and in that situation i mean that's possible maybe he had not knew about that and jay doesn't even want to admit that to the police in his interviews and even now doesn't want to admit that that's possible maybe there was something jay had done that had not knew about that he still doesn't

want to admit to this day who knows right i think that could be very well the case where he's saying that he's playing the violin as if like oh i can't trust police and even if i came forward you guys would have pinned it on me or it's the fact that he knows he was maybe not an equal partner but but heavily involved in this crime and he didn't want to come forward because he was maybe not an equal partner, but heavily involved in this crime. And he didn't want to come forward because he was hoping it would just all go away. And now he's realizing that it's not. So he has to give him something. Yeah, I don't know. It's either he was doing more. I mean, just on the regular, like maybe selling something other than weed or maybe he had been involved in

maybe he had been involved in like other murders or attempted murders before and did not knew and he just didn't want to, you know, have that get out. Or he's just completely trying to make excuses for why he didn't come forward. And the real reason he didn't come forward was because he was involved in the murder and he just didn't want to get in trouble. And I think I think it's the latter. Personally, if I had to, if you held a gun to my head and said, you got to make a choice, I would agree with you. Yeah, I'm going to make you lay in the snow in front of your house, personally. If I had to, if you held a gun to my head and said, you got to make a choice, I would agree with you. Yeah, I'm going to make you lay in the snow in front of your house too. Yeah. Okay. So let's finally talk about Kathy's apartment, something that, you know, multiple people agreed happened, by the way, even Adnan. And for the record, just to get this out

of the way, Kathy is not this woman's real name. Her real name is Christy Vinson. And before you come at me, that's been revealed multiple times, even in Rabia's book. She was on the HBO miniseries, so I'm not exposing anyone. But at the time, in 1999, Christy was 22 years old. She was a student at the University of Maryland in Baltimore studying social work, and she was working at a residential group home for adolescent boys in Ellicott City. Now, at the time, she was living in a Baltimore apartment, and she was close friends with Jen Pusateri. They used to be in the same sorority. Christy knew Jay Wilds through Jen. Christy did not know Heyman Lee, and she had not met Adnan Syed before the evening of January 13th of 1999.

Now Christy claims that she remembers that night very well because, well, first of all, the whole thing was odd. But she also said she'd been at a conference through her internship all day. And when she got home between 5.30 and 6 p.m., her boyfriend Jeff was already there. And then there was a knock on her door. And on the other side of the door was Jay Wilds and a friend who she didn't know and she wasn't introduced to, but who we now know was Adnan Syed. Now, Christy said that Jay and Adnan wanted to come in and hang out. So she let them in and Jay sat down next to her in a chair and then Adnan sort of like half sat, half slumped over a pile of pillows on the floor. Christy said it wasn't necessarily unusual for Jay to be at her place, but he usually came with Jen, although he had come alone on a few occasions.

During the trial, Christy was asked if Adnan ever spoke to her while he was at her place. And she said, quote, uh-huh. Well, not directly to me, kind of like everybody in the room. We were just watching TV. It was really uncomfortable, like nobody was talking. And all of a sudden, he just like popped up and was like, how do you get rid of a high? Or how do I get rid of a high? Something along those lines. And I was like, I don't know. I think you just have to wait, end quote. She was asked what she thought he meant by that, and she responded that she took it to mean that he was high. And then she said, quote, I think he said something along the lines about something important to do. I have to go somewhere. I can't really remember exactly what he said, but the gist of it was he had somewhere to be and he couldn't be high.

He couldn't be messed up. He had to be straight, end quote. Now, remember, Jay said in his Intercept interview that Jen and someone named Laura were present at Christy's apartment that night. But Christy claims that only she, her boyfriend Jeff, Jay, and Adnan were there. And in fact, she claims that Jen Pusateri called her while they were there, but not before Adnan got a call of his own on his cell phone. Christy believes the call to Adnan came in between 6 and 6.30 p.m. because they were watching Judge Judy. She said, quote, He got a phone call on his cell phone, and nobody in the room was talking.

It was just the TV was on, so you could hear what he was saying. He was saying, like, what am I going to do? They're going to come talk to me. What do I, I mean, I can't remember exactly. This is just like the gist of what he was saying. What am I going to tell them? What should I say? Somewhere around those lines. End quote. Then Christy claims Jen called her house. Christy answered the phone and she asked Jen, like, what's going on? Why are Jay and this kid here? Who is Jay's friend? What's happening? He's like slumped on the floor, like half asleep. And Jen allegedly told Christy

that she was supposed to hang out with Jay later that night so she would find out all the details. Christy said when she described Adnan to Jen, Jen seemed to have no idea who she was talking about. What happened next was also described by Christy. She said, quote, Then I think I went back in the room, and I can't remember whether Jeff got on the phone with Jen or we hung up and maybe she called back later. I'm not sure. But we were, I remember sitting in the chair and we were just, you know, again, watching TV because nobody was talking. And the defendant just like jumped up and ran out of the apartment. He just jumped up and ran out. I remember looking at Jay and being like, what's wrong with him? Like, is he okay? Jay just kind of sat there and didn't say anything. And then maybe a minute later, Jay was like, hang on a

second. And Jay got up and followed him outside or out of my apartment, end quote. Now, Christy was asked if Jay and Adnan ever came back and she said no. She said she also thought that this was the point that Jeff was on the phone with Jen in the other room because she remembered shouting to him, they just left. And then she walked to her window and looked out at the parking lot. Christy said, quote, the way my apartment is set up is when you look down, you can see the whole area. You can see the porch and the walkway. I didn't see them standing anywhere out there. So I assumed they were in the car and Jeff was on the phone with Jen. And then the car just like started like pulling off driving. I said, oh my gosh, they're leaving. And I remember Jeff repeating

to Jen, oh, they're leaving. But I knew that Jay had to come back because his hat and cigarettes were there at my apartment, end quote. Now, Christy claims that Jay did return to her apartment later that night around 9.30 or 10. He was with Jen, and they were both acting really funny and really strange. And Christy said, quote, and I asked, you know, what's going on? And Jen was like, they were both like, well, you know, we're not going to talk about it. We can't talk about it or something. So I just kind of like dropped it. I was like, OK, end quote.

So during the trial, Christy was asked to look at Adnan's cell phone records, and her attention was directed to calls 14, 15, and 16. These were three incoming calls. Call 16 came in at 6.07 p.m. It was 56 seconds long. Call 15 came in at 6.09 p.m., and it was 53 seconds long. And call 16 came in at 6.24 p.m., and it was 4 minutes and 15 seconds long. So just for the records, it's believed that the call at 6.07 p.m. was Hay's brother, Young, calling Adnan and asking if he knew where Hay was. And actually, Young called Adnan, not actually knowing that he was calling Adnan, because what had happened was when the police were asking Hay's brother about Hay and where she could be, he went through her diary and he saw

Adnan's cell phone number, but he thought it was Don's cell phone number because the number was on a page that had like Don's name all over it and hearts. So he thought he was calling Don, Hay's current boyfriend, and he got Adnan, Hay's ex-boyfriend. And so at that point, Adnan heard from Young that Hay was missing. And then they believe the next call, the one that came in at 6.09 p.m., was Hay's best friend, Aisha. That call was 53 seconds long, and we believe that this was Aisha calling Adnan and saying, hey, do you know where Hay is? And then call 16, which is at 6.24 p.m., and that's the longer one, that was Officer Adcock basically saying to Adnan, hey, you know, I got your number from Hay's brother. Like, do you know where she is? And

this is when, you know, they talked about Adnan possibly getting a ride home from Hay that day from school. But Adnan said by the time he got there, Hay had left and she had tired of waiting for him. So this is all happening allegedly while they're at Christy's apartment. Quick note, I don't want to stop the flow here. Just something to point out in Adnan's cap. Adnan has always claimed that the call he made the night before Hayes disappearance was to tell her his new phone number. We know that he had only had that phone one day. So and hey went missing the next day.

So just an ad nonce favor here. It does look like hey was on the phone with him that night. And at least at some portion during that short interaction between the two of them on the phone, she wrote down the cell phone number that he had provided to her when he called her. So I don't know, there's down the cell phone number that he had provided to her when he called her. So there's not much to take from that. But I did say that regardless of what happened on that phone call, there was probably some truth to what Adnan was saying. I think this journal entry proves that.

Just want to put that out there. 100%. What I envision happening is Hay was on the phone with Don and she had her diary open and she was doodling while she talked to him. She's drawing hearts. She's drawing his name. I doodle constantly when I'm on the phone. I cannot be on and she was doodling while she talked to him. She's drawing hearts. She's drawing his name. I doodle constantly when I'm on the phone. I cannot be on the phone without doodling.

So that's probably what was happening. Then Adnan called. So she scribbled his number on that same page that she was already doodling on. And then Young found it the next day, which led to Adnan. So yeah, I mean, definitely that's what happened. So the following two calls after this were both outgoing calls, with a call being made to Yasser's cell at 6.59 p.m. and then a call being made to Jen's pager at 7 p.m. So Adnan told Sarah Koenig of the Serial podcast that when Officer Adcock called him, he was high.

Adnan said, quote, I do remember that phone call and I do remember being high at the time because the craziest thing is to be high and have the police call your phone I'll never forget that end quote that does have to be rough oh my gosh I know that when I'm talking to you on the phone sometimes and I'm high you make me feel super nervous and you're not even a cop anymore because you're always asking are you high are? Like, why do you need to know that? Cause I'm trying to have a serious conversation and you're like, yeah, dude, whatever, man. Sure. And you're like giggling.

Does that ever really happen in general though? There's been a few times where you've been laughing uncontrollably and I'm like, oh, you're high. And you're like, yeah. And you're like, it's late, man. It's my time. Yeah. But can you imagine like being at non and you're high and a cop calls you asking about your missing ex-girlfriend and you're supposed to like keep it together for like, what was like four minutes that call? Yeah.

Longest four minutes of your life there. It would make sense why he jumped up and ran out of the room though, right? He doesn't want, obviously want other people to hear that interaction. Exactly. So in one of Jay's, in one of Jay's version of events, he said that Adnan received that call and then like went out in the hallway. But Adnan does say he thought he was getting food when that call came in. So he doesn't remember being at Christie's when that happened, but he does remember being at Christie's that night so it's very it's very complicated but Christy was basically shown these incoming calls and she was asked you know do you think any of these incoming calls are consistent with the time that you were calling on getting this call at your apartment that caused him to be stressed and concerned and she said yes she said any one of those incoming calls could have been the one that she saw him receive because they were watching Judge Judy which went from 6 to 6 30.

now according to Adnan Jay picked him up from track practice between 4 30 and 5 and by 6 p.m they were at Christy's apartment so that does match up with Christy's version of events I also do want to mention that when Adnan spoke to the police and his own lawyers, he didn't tell them about his time at Christy's apartment that night. And when Jay initially talked to the police in his first interview, he didn't mention it either. In his first interview, Jay claims that around 6.45 p.m., he was picking Adnan up from track practice. In his second interview, Jay does talk about going to Christy's apartment, and he has him and Adnan getting there around 6.15 p.m. And then in his third interview, Jay claimed he was already at Christy's apartment when he got a call from Adnan at 5.55 p.m. to come and pick him up from track practice. So that's when he left Christy's apartment.

He went and picked Adnan up from school, And by 6.25 p.m., he and Adnan were back at Christie's together. So in this version of events, Jay claims that Adnan received two phone calls. One was from Hay's brother asking if Adnan knew where she was. One was from Officer Adcock. What they think happened, I guess, is he got the call from Hay's brother and then he got a call from Asha, and that was who he was saying to like, oh, what am I going to tell them? They're going to call me. What am I going to say? And to be honest, this doesn't stand out as suspicious to me if that's how it went down because he's high at this point. I mean, even Christy says he's high. And Adnan might be worried, like, my ex-girlfriend

is missing. And not only that, I'm not necessarily worried about that because she could be fine. But any minute the police are going to call me, because that's allegedly what Young had told him, like, oh, I gave the police your number. Any minute they're going to call me, I'm super high. And I'm going to have to talk to them. What am I going to say? What can I do? So it makes sense that he might have been panicked in general just about talking to the police when he's high and not necessarily like this guilty thing like, oh, what am I going to tell them? Because why would he be saying that to Hayes' best friend?

Yeah, I don't think I don't think he would. And I think you're right. It's more of just like, oh, what am I going to do if they exactly the way you said it? I don't think there's anything nefarious there. And I definitely don't think he was saying that to Asia if he would say it to anyone. Exactly. So we're going to take another break. But when I come back, I'm going to tell you about what the Undisclosed podcast found, where they claim that Christy is remembering a different night than January 13th. So we'll be right back. Here we go. All right. Here we go.

Okay. So let's talk about what the Undisclosed podcast discovered that led them to believe that Christy Vinson was thinking of a completely different night than January 13th, 1999, when Jay and Adnan were at her apartment and Adnan was acting sketchy and weird on the phone. So reportedly, one of their listeners was able to get a hold of the December 1998, January 1999 calendar for the School of Social Work, which is where Christy claimed the conference she was at that day was taking place. And they found out that there was no conference on January 13th. There were conferences on January 22nd and January 23rd, and specifically the one on the 22nd ran from 8.30 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. Additionally, it looks like January 22nd was a day off from Woodlawn High School, which means Adnan would have had the whole day to get as high as Christy described him instead of just the short time between track practice and arriving at

Christy's house. Although I think that's personally less important than the conference dates because you can get pretty high in a pretty short amount of time. Like he could have gotten pretty high. Anecdotally, you know that, right? Yeah, absolutely, man. Give me 10 minutes. I'm out of it. So this is interesting to me because Christy was a part of that HBO miniseries, and she was shown a planner of her classes from January of 1999. And it was also revealed that she had been enrolled in a course which included evening classes that went from 6 p.m. to 9, 10 p.m. every Wednesday, including the Wednesday that Heyman Lee went missing, January 13th. Christy herself said in the docuseries that she could not have skipped that class because she wouldn't have passed the course.

Allegedly, this specific class only met three or four times, and if she skipped even one, she would have failed, and she didn't fail. She got a B. So Christy now says, as soon as that HBO documentary came out, she says she believes there's a chance she maybe did get the date wrong. So why did Jay, Jen, and even Adnan remember this whole situation happening? I guess that would be my question. And Jen Pusateri, she testified about a call she made to Christy where Christy told her that Jay and his friend were at her apartment and acting all weird. And Jen claimed that she talked to Christy on that day and she talked to Christy's boyfriend, Jeff, and she also talked to Jay for a hot second,

even though Christy and Jay, they don't mention that. And she said when Jay left the apartment, she was still on the phone with Jeff. And Jeff told her, listen, you know, Jay left and now you're supposed to pick Jay up at Gilston Park. Now, Jay claimed that Adnan had run out of the apartment without saying a word because he knew that he was on the phone with the cops and he knew that they had to quickly go and hide and bury Hayes' body. Jay testified, quote, he was talking to the police officer and he was motioning, I'm leaving, end quote. So if we put all of these stories together from the testimony of Jay, Jen, and Christy, they once again paint a weird and muddled picture and none of it makes sense. Jay said he called Jen at 4.12 p.m. and he asked Jen if Christy was home. He then

dropped Adnan off at track practice and he went to Christy's apartment. And that's when he got the call from Adnan to pick him up from track practice. Jay picked Adnan up. They went right to Christy's house. Apparently, they're not stopping for food anymore, even though both Jay and Adnan had previously claimed they'd stopped for food because Adnan had to break fast after track practice. And while they're at Christie's, that's where the call from Officer Adcock came in. Now, Adnan got three calls at Christie's place. We already talked about that. And one of these calls caused Adnan to freak out and leave the apartment. We believe it was Officer Adcock's call. And at this point, Jen is on the phone with Jeff, who tells her that Adnan and Jay left and she needs to pick Jay up from Gilston Park. But then around 7 p.m., remember, Jen said she got a confusing pager message from Jay about not picking him up.

So then Jen called Adnan's cell phone number and Adnan told her that Jay would call her back when he was done. Because according to Jay, at this point, around that 7 p.m. hour, he and Adnan are at Leakin Park burying Hay's body. And then Jay called Jen. He called her back to tell her to pick him up at Westview Mall, which she did. Jay tells Jen that Adnan killed Hay. Jen brings Jay to a dumpster where he allegedly dumps the shovels they buried Hay with. Then they go back to Christy's apartment and act weird and say they can't talk about anything. Once again, in this version of events, this like full version of events,

they're completely leaving out the fact that they stopped at Stephanie's house, which both Jay and Jen had testified to before. Looking into it, it looks like Stephanie wasn't even home that night until I think after 10. So Jay couldn't have come over to her house. She was at a basketball game or something. I wish I had my notes with me. But yeah, she wasn't home until later. So he couldn't have come over until later. And according to Jay and Jen, they were at Christy's by that point. I think there's a good chance that it's possible Christy did have the day wrong and then kind of everybody

just went along with it. I'm not sure what's happening here, honestly, because it doesn't look like anybody remembered being at Christy's until Christy remembered that it had happened. It's even possible that the police and prosecution knew that Christy had the day wrong before the first trial. And I would assume that they checked into her whereabouts the day of January 13th, which we would assume and understand that this would have led them to the same information and conclusion that the Undisclosed podcast arrived at. And there is evidence as well that the police spoke to Christy's boyfriend,

Jeff. So Christy was interviewed for the first time on March 9th. On March 11th, Detective Ritz talked to her boyfriend, Jeff. And then on that same day, the detectives talked to Christy again. Now, there's no notes from these March 11th interviews with Jeff or Christy, and Jeff was not called to be a witness at the trial. Colin Miller, one of the hosts of the Undisclosed podcast, wrote in his blog, quote, Jeff was not called as a witness at trial despite the fact that he was the only person other than Christy or Jen who allegedly saw Jay and Adnan together that evening. He should have been a great and important witness unless he told Ritz something he didn't want to hear. I don't know whether the HBO team was able to track down Jeff,

but he might very well have some information that could point to a Brady violation if, for example, Jeff said something inconsistent with the Adnan slash Jay visit being on January 13th, end quote. So basically what they're saying here is if it was a completely different night and the police knew that Christy couldn't have been at her apartment at the time she said she was, the 6, 630 time. And they went forward with her testimony during trial. Anyways, that's a Brady violation. And apparently there's a lot of these Brady violations in this case, allegedly. And we're going to go over those in my last episode that I get because I have to shove everything into the next episode. But we're going to go over that list next time.

I'm sure the next episode will be very long. I mean, it's your fault if it is. Derek, I did promise you one last episode, but it's eight hours. Right? That's such a good idea. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, we kind of explained it, summarize it. Right. That's such a good idea. Yeah. Thank you. It's true. And I, as you said, a couple seconds ago, I would like to think that law enforcement

went to her school, Christie school and verified that there was a class that night. Was she there? Was she not there? Checked into this conference, all this stuff to, to kind of make sure that what she's remembering, you know, is in fact accurate. And then like it was spoken about by the co-host of the Undisclosed podcast, if Jeff said something to counter what Christy had said, like, hey, no, it definitely wasn't that day because of this, this, and this. And that's why they decided not to put him on the stand. Well, yeah, that would classify as a Brady violation. He's not wrong. Yeah. But I mean, we'd have to have proof, I guess, that they knew that, you know, and there's no notes from their interview with her boyfriend, Jeff. So maybe during that interview, Jeff was like, nah, it wasn't the 13th. Like, Christy has class late on Wednesdays or whatever. So she wasn't home. It must have been like the following night or the week after or the week before or something like that, if he'd said that and they just didn't make notes and they didn't introduce it into trial, that's a big issue. I don't know how you would prove that at this point so many years later. Yeah. Also, just to play devil's advocate,

it could be that they felt at the time with all the witnesses they had, Jeff was overkill. He was going to say exactly what Christy said, exactly what Jen was going to say. They didn't really need Jeff in hindsight. They should have put him on the stand if he confirmed what they were saying. I will say with the whole interaction that you just described to us, it is very interesting that what Christy describes lines up pretty much on the money with the phone calls that were made that night and also the behavior of Adnan to get up and run out on that particular day just so happens that from what Christy remembered she didn't know who he was talking to but he ran out as if he had to get somewhere right away and it just so happens that there's a phone record of the of police calling him at that exact time so it it could be just a coincidence again bad luck for Adnan but I will say it's compelling that it falls like that.

And from what you're telling me, I haven't seen it. It sounds like Christy acknowledged that she could be wrong about the date, but didn't say definitively. In hindsight, now looking at it years later, I was wrong about the date. When she was talked to about it in the HBO miniseries or docuseries, whatever you want to call it, she seemed like legitimately like confused and distressed, I would say. She seemed distressed, like, how could I have been wrong about this? Which makes me think that she didn't think she was wrong. But when faced with this, you know, these papers, she was like, was I wrong? Yeah.

And some people wonder maybe her class was canceled that night because, remember, there was an ice storm that was, you know, supposed to take place that night. And there were weather alerts going out saying like, oh, you know, freezing, freezing rain and ice are going to start like falling later. So maybe the class, knowing that it went till 9, 10 p.m., preemptively said, hey, don't come in today because we don't want you guys driving home in this bad weather. But, you know, how many years later? They're not going to be able to even prove whether that happened or not. All we know is she was scheduled to have a class. We don't know if she actually went or if it was canceled. And she's not going to remember it at that point.

And I mean, once the HBO docuseries found what they needed, that like class schedule, they weren't really going to dig much deeper because that was all they needed to spin their narrative at that point. It's a level of doubt, right? I mean, and it would be great if at the time law enforcement, again, a common theme, had gone and done their job and checked in to make sure they verified that she was where she said she was. And to be honest, we don't know if they did or not. I'm not one to defend law enforcement, but they could have. It's not in the report, but you're

right. We don't, they didn't feel like that was going to be something they were going to have to defend at court. And it doesn't seem like they did. This was an HBO miniseries years later. So they weren't planning for that. So it's one of those things where if at the time, as Christy said, if she missed a class, she would have failed it. Well, if she didn't fail the class, then obviously she didn't miss it or there wasn't a class that night. And the only way to know that now would be able to go back to the professor who was instructing the class and see what the schedule was like and to see if there was a class that night. But yeah, and we're not going to be able to do that now, obviously. And I would assume they were taking attendance if attendance was a requirement for passing

the class. Yeah, I'm sure they were. But like you said, over a decade later, are they even going to have that information? No. And with, you know, you could have like maybe HBO could have gotten in touch with that professor and stuff. But I doubt they did, because why find the truth when you can just create reasonable doubt?

Like, that's all they're there to do. They're not there to find the truth when you can just create reasonable doubt? Like that's all they're there to do. They're not there to find the truth. They're there to just make you question what you think you know, which is fine. But I get kind of impartial to finding the truth myself. And let's be honest, they didn't technically need Jeff at trial. Colin Miller makes it seem like, oh, Jeff was the only other person besides Jay and Jen who put Jay and Adnan together that evening. And that's absolute bullshit. Adnan himself put himself with Jay that evening at Christy's house. He said Jay picked him up from track practice. There's not a doubt here. It's

not like Adnan saying, oh, no, I wasn't with Jay. And Colin Miller's over here like, oh, that one person that could have proved it. Adnan put himself with Jay. So if all Jeff had to say to the police was, yeah, I saw Adnan at the apartment, they don't need him because they've got Christy saying that. They've got Adnan saying that. And they've got Jay saying that. And they got Jen. Yeah.

Where's the issue here that you have to prove just, you know, again, that he was there and not already admitted to being there. He already admitted to being with Jay after track practice. We're talking about a time that would be after track practice. So no, we don't technically need Jeff at all. And I would assume if we had it in front of us and it's assumption, but I would assume that the phone location at that time would be in that scope of where Christie's house was. It might, It's not exact, but I'd be willing to bet that if this did happen on that night, Adnan's phone would have been in the general vicinity of the tower, the panel that would have been needed for those calls to have been made, incoming and outgoing.

Oh, we're going to talk about that. Oh, okay. Well then, hopefully, if it doesn't, well then I think they got a compelling argument because that technology, those results do not change. We're going to talk about that in like two seconds. Great. Segway. Additionally, what we have here is, you know, Adnan sort of like remembered certain things. And he claims that he remembered being at track practice that night because he informed his coach that he had to lead prayers at his mosque on Thursday night, which would have been the following day.

And he also said that he remembered Hay's brother calling him, but Adnan said he couldn't remember exactly where he was when Hay's brother called, but he thought he was in the car with Jay because he stated that he kept his phone in his glove compartment and he remembered reaching over Jay to get the phone out of that glove compartment. So it sounds like Adnan was driving at this point. So let's talk about those three incoming calls that we think were from Young, Hay's brother, Asha, and Officer Adcock. The three incoming calls do appear as if they pinged at the tower where Christy's apartment was located. And by the time that Adnan called his friend Yasser at 6.59

p.m., the cell phone was pinging off of tower L651A, which covered the area of Woodlawn High School and possibly that Best Buy too. Remember that Yasser is Adnan's friend, but Yasser is also the person that the anonymous caller identified as possibly knowing about Adnan's friend. But yes, there's also the person that the anonymous caller identified as possibly knowing about Adnan's involvement in Hay's death. So the fact that Adnan's calling him right before Jay claims they were going to Leakin Park to bury Hay's body is also a little suspicious. So according to Jay, after they left Christy's apartment, that's when they went to his house, they got the shovels, they drove to Lincoln Park, and they buried Hay. And this is important because not only do we want to make sure that Adnan had an alibi for the time that Hayman Lee was allegedly snatched and murdered, but we also want to know if he had an alibi for the time period that Jay and the state

claimed Hay's body was being buried in Lincoln Park. Adnan claims that after leaving Christy's apartment, he drove home, he got some food for his father, and then he brought this food to his father at the mosque. And this happened between 7 and 8 p.m. So Adnan's home by 7, he's at the mosque by like 7.30 or 8. And Adnan's father actually testified during the second trial that during Ramadan, he would generally arrive to his mosque around 7.30 or 7.45 to get ready for prayers, which would start at eight and continue on for roughly two, two and a half hours. He would then leave the mosque and go home around 10.30, quarter to 11. Adnan's father said that, yes,

Adnan led prayers at the mosque on the 14th, the day after Hay's disappearance. And he also said that Adnan had been going with him to mosque all the days of Ramadan. He said there's no sign-in sheet at the mosque and no one kept attendance. But he knew that Adnan had been with him for evening prayers on the 13th because Adnan had been there with him every day for the prayers that went from 8 to 10 or 10.30 p.m. And that's a problem. There's a problem with his testimony, because Adnan's work records showed that some nights during the month of January, he was working his EMT job too late to be at the mosque, so he couldn't have been at the mosque every night during Ramadan with his father because some nights he had to work.

Additionally, we know that on the night of the day that Adnan activated his cell phone, remember January 12th, he was making all sorts of calls and they were pinging at all different towers between the hours of 7.30 p.m. and 9.41 p.m. when Adnan's father claims he was with him at the mosque. And listen, he specifically says in this testimony, yes, Adnan was with me at the mosque on January 12th. He was with him at the mosque. And listen, he specifically says in this testimony, yes, Adnan was with me at the mosque on January 12th. He was with me on the 10th. He was with me on the 11th. He was with me on the 12th. He was and 9 40 p.m. they show that his phone pinged at at least four different towers during that time so I personally don't see how he could possibly have been at the mosque even if he didn't have to continuously be in prayer and even if he was allowed to make phone calls here or there because people were like oh you don't understand how it works like you can make phone

calls you're not just constantly in prayer. You get breaks and stuff, which is fine, but the cell phone data doesn't lie. And you might say, oh, it does lie. It doesn't lie when we look at some of those calls on the 12th were across town, man, not even close to the mosque. So in my opinion, there's no way Adnan was at the mosque on January 12th, even though his father testified that he was. So can we really take his father's word when he testified that Adnan was at the mosque all night? I think he said from like 730 to 10 or 1030 at the mosque with him. Yeah. And it might not even be something where he's the father's trying to mislead law enforcement or anyone else for that matter. Ramadan's an entire month. So he could be confusing one night with another,

just like some of these witnesses might've done. Again, it goes across the board for everyone. Yes, he could be. He could be, except he said that Adnan was there every single night. Right. Right. So he's definitely, he might be exaggerating. Again, he knows his son's being looked at for a possible murder. I can't say that as a father, I wouldn't do something similar. So would I. Shit. It's one of those situations where maybe most nights he was there, but it doesn't appear that he was there all nights. Exactly. evening of the 13th, when Adnan was supposedly at the mosque for evening prayers between 7.30

and 10.30 p.m., we once again have a call log that does not fit that narrative. First of all, if Adnan is at the mosque, we would assume that his car and cell phone are there with him. As far as we know, he claims he was there with his car and his cell phone, but we have a call to Jen Pusateri's pager at 7 p.m. And why would Adnan be paging Jen when they weren't even friends? Like, they didn't talk to each other. They didn't really know each other. You would think that the Jen pager call would suggest that Adnan and Jay were still together. Because according to Jay and the prosecution, this is when he and Adnan were bearing Hay's body.

And the two incoming calls, which came in around this time at 7.09 and 7.16 p.m., they did ping off that tower that covered Lincoln Park. Now, of course, there's a huge controversy over whether or not the incoming call locations were accurate. We are going to get to that. But we know the outgoing call at 7 p.m. to Jen's pager pinged off of Tower L651A, which would once again be that Woodlawn High School Best Buy tower. Jay claims that this call was him paging Jen from Leakin Park, but the GPS coordinates do not put the phone in the Leakin Park area yet. So it's very difficult to understand because we've already established Adnan claims that he was at the mosque the whole time

with his car and his cell phone. He has no recollection of allowing Jay to continue using his phone and a cell phone. And really, besides a few calls to Jen's pager from that seven o'clock hour on, the only people that are called from Adnan's cell phone are people he knows. And once again, the call log shows that the towers being pinged from 7 to 9 p.m. on the 13th are all over the place. So even if you don't believe the incoming calls at 7.09 and 7.16 p.m. are giving an accurate location, you still have to admit that Adnan pretty much couldn't have been at the mosque the whole time that night because his phone was moving around. So we have two calls to Jen's pager, one at 8.04 p.m. and one at 8.05 p.m. That first 8.04 p.m. pinged off of L653A, and then the second 8.05 p.m. pinged off at L653C. Now, besides the fact that this is not a tower that covers his mosque, why is Adnan

paging Jen twice in a row, a minute apart, when Jay is allegedly not with him? So what we have here is, as far as I'm concerned, and we're going to put pictures up, we're going to be looking at the same pictures as you, and I know Derek has them in front of him as well, but it looks more like the cell phone tower L653, whether it's A or C, is more covering the area of where Hay's body was found and where her car was left. So if you go by Jay's story, they buried Hay in Leakin Park and then they drove and they were looking for a place to leave hayes car it actually does match up so if we're to believe that had not had his cell phone and his car we're gonna have to believe that he wasn't at the mosque and he was kind of in the same place where hayes body and car were left without jay allegedly because he claims that he wasn't with jay at this point but he also

claims he was at the mosque so in my opinion if we're looking at who did this and if somebody's suspicious, then it looks like Adnan and Jay were together at this point because Jay seems to know where they were going. And even though Adnan says he was at the mosque, his cell phone tells a different story. Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I think that's fair to say. The mosque also, just to add to that, L651 is right next to the mosque. That's a tower located northeast of the Adnod's Mosque. It's a lot, lot closer than L653. So just to take that in consideration, if he were at the mosque, more than likely would have pinged off L651. Yeah, and I believe that's the same tower that pings when he's at his house because his house is pretty close to the mosque. Right nearby as well. Yep. Woodlawn High School, Best Buy, Security Square Mall, all of those things more than likely would ping off L651 because they're east. I'm sorry, they're west of L653. So they would have to, if you were at those locations, you would have to go past L651 to ping off L653. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, there's going to be people out there who are like, why are you even looking at these cell phones and these towers? Like they were already deemed to be inaccurate, but that's absolutely not true.

It actually turned out that the incoming calls weren't accurate. And we have this cover sheet from AT&T because when the prosecution asked for non-cell phone records, AT&T sent them over, but they had a cover sheet on that fax. And on that cover sheet, there was a disclaimer and it says, quote, outgoing calls only are reliable for location status. Any incoming calls will not be considered reliable information for location, end quote. So basically AT&T was saying, hey, these incoming calls, you can't really depend on them, but the outgoing calls are accurate. And those calls at 8.04 p.m. and 8.05 p.m. were outgoing calls, which means they would be giving off reliable information. Now, we're going to take a quick break, our last break, and then we're going to come back and continue discussing this. So after those two calls to Jen's pager at 8.04 and 8.05 p.m., there isn't another call for an hour. And that call takes place at 9.01 p.m. and it's Tunisia

with the cell phone pinging off L651C, which is the tower that covers Adnan's mosque, his home, Security Square Mall, Best Buy, etc. For the next hour, Adnan placed several phone calls, all to people he knew and Jay did not know, including Krista twice, Nisha again, and all of those calls pinged off the same L651C tower, but then he called Yasser at 10.02 p.m., and that call pings off of tower L698B, which is the tower that actually covers the location of Jay Wild's house. Now, in her blog, while going over all of these calls, Susan Simpson, who's part of the Undisclosed podcast, she says, quote, this call is another good example of a call routed through a cell tower

outside of its normal range. There's no reason to believe, regardless of which witness testimony is accepted, that Adnan was anywhere other than his home at this time, or that he was out somewhere moving around at 10.02 p.m. at night. Adnan was most certainly home, and by chance, his call to Yasser was routed through the tower directly south." And to that I say, why? Why is there no reason to believe that Adnan was anywhere other than home at 10.02 p.m.? According to his father, prayers at the mosque didn't even wrap up until around that time, and Adnan was with him every night at the mosque. And didn't even wrap up until around that time. And Adnan was with him every night at the mosque. And additionally, as we remember, just the night before, Adnan had been driving around

late at night after 10 p.m. and making calls on his cell phone. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that Adnan would be out driving around and making calls. He had done it the night before. And I don't see how it's just, I mean, I guess it's convenient for her because she is of the, you know, the mindset that Adnan is innocent. It's convenient for her to say, oh, this is just a good example of a call routed through a tower outside of its normal range. She has no evidence that that's what happened. And it could be that Adnan was out and driving around. Maybe he was at the mosque, but he left. And instead of going straight home, he was kind of driving around to make phone calls.

But, I mean, I just don't understand why she can just write it off as this, you know, fluke just because it doesn't fit in with her narrative of Adnan being safe and sound at home like a good boy that night. Because we know he wasn't safe and sound at home like a good boy that night? Because we know he wasn't safe and sound at home like a good boy the night before. Yeah, I mean, I think it's one of those things where she's going to say, well, we spoke to Adnan, we talked to him and he said he was home. And I completely believe her. So he probably did say that. And if we're going to take everything that Adnan said at face value, then it would be a good point to bring up for everyone else saying, hey, listen, Adnan said he was at home and look at here, you have it routing through a tower that's nowhere near. So we have to discredit all tower information because here's just one example of the tower not lining up with the typical way it would be routed through a call. But again, that's going

off one person who has an incentive to stipulate what he did, which is I was at home because that's going to back up her theory that the tower information is unreliable. I would much prefer to have multiple people saying he was at home, not family members, not friends, someone else to confirm that he was in fact at home, maybe a security camera from his house or something that's indisputable to prove that he was at home to then make this leap and say, hey, listen, as you can see here, when a tower nearby is unavailable, the phone will connect to a tower that's not necessarily the normal tower it would connect to. But again, we're only going off Adnan. So she could be right, but she could also, it's very plausible

that she's wrong. And it's interesting because remember in Jay's Intercept interview, he said that Adnan came to his house, his grandmother's house at night. And that's when Jay saw Hay's body for the first time. And this actually fits with that story. So is this what actually happened? And Jay's telling the truth or in the 15 years since, you know, the whole incident had passed, did Jay have time to like actually look at, you know, Adnan's cell passed, did Jay have time to like actually look at, you know, Adnan's cell phone records and look at maps of these things like Susan Simpson has put together and say, oh, you know, that cell phone tower at 1030 or 10 o'clock at night actually shows right where I live. So I could just say that Adnan was showing me Hay's body at my

grandmother's house. Who knows? But either way, I don't think we can say for sure that Adnan was at home at that time. And I also don't think that any of his cell phone records show that he was sitting in the mosque at the same place between like 7.30 and 10.30 at night. And that's, I think, something that's a little bit indisputable. Yeah, I think based on the towers, if we're to believe they're accurate, I would agree with you. There are closer towers nearby. And then it just kind of aligns with all of it. I'm at this point, you have to go off the towers. It's not because it fits a narrative that I'm trying to support. But if we can't go on off of the data that does not change over time or does not change based on what you believe, then what can we go off of? And so, yeah, you can always poke holes in everything saying, hey, listen, it was 99 out of 100 times accurate, but there was that one time it was wrong. And that may create a level of doubt for some people. But if the best I have is 99%, I'm going to go with

that over some human being who's being implicated in the crime over the cell phone tower. That's what I'm going to choose to go with. Yeah. And I want to stress that even if we throw out those incoming calls that placed Adnan and his cell phone at Lincoln Park when Jay said they were burying his body, even if we throw those out and say those are not accurate, the outgoing calls were deemed to be accurate. And the outgoing calls show that Adnan is not sitting at the mosque, you know, praying for several hours. That's all that I'm going to say about it. And reportedly, Adnan's father wasn't the only one who claimed that Adnan was at mosque on the evening of January 13th, 1999. And you'd think that's good because it

means we have a cooperating witness. But then you find out who that cooperating witness is, and then it doesn't look so good. In the transcript from Bilal Ahmed's grand jury testimony, he claims he saw Adnan at the mosque on January 13th. And he remembered this, he said, because he helped Adnan go over his notes for the next night when Adnan was to be leading prayers. Strangely enough, Adnan himself did not remember this, but Bilal did. At 8 p.m., he said right around the time that Adnan was paging Jen Pusateri twice, he saw Adnan and helped him with his notes. But Bilal would never testify to this at the actual trial because he had completely vanished and dropped off the map by

then. Let's talk a little bit more about Bilal and his relationship to Adnan before we wrap up today's episode. From his grand jury notes, I found out that Bilal first started teaching Adnan when Adnan was just 11 years old. The cell phone that Adnan started using the day before Hay's murder was not actually the first cell phone he ever had in his possession. He'd actually been using one of Bilal's cell phones. Reportedly, Bilal had three phones. We'll talk about that in a second. Additionally, even though Bilal testified under oath at the grand jury that he and Adnan had gone to the AT&T store and purchased this new cell phone together, Adnan himself would later admit that this was a lie.

Bilal had gone to purchase the phone ahead of time, and then Adnan went to pick up the phone later with a friend of his, Peter Billingsley. Peter told the police that he had known Adnan since fourth grade. They'd become close friends by the seventh grade. He said that Adnan had told him that Hay was the second girl he had slept with, but the first girl he had loved. He also told police that sometime after Christmas, he and Adnan had left fourth period and gone to the AT&T store to pick up his new cell phone,

a phone that had already been purchased, but Adnan first needed to return his Sprint cell phone before he was able to pick up the new one. Now, we know that Peter was referring to the phone given to Adnan by Bilal because there's a call to Bilal's cell phone from Peter's cell phone on January 12th in the morning. And why would Peter be calling Bilal, someone he didn't know, unless Adnan had Bilal's Sprint cell phone? Now, Adnan claimed that Bilal had lied about them getting the phone together because Bilal had thought it looked less suspicious than what had actually happened. And although the cell phone bill was going to Bilal to his address,

it wasn't Adnan's name, sort of. It was actually put under the name Adrian Syed, Syed being spelled with two Ds. Now, you might say this cloak and dagger stuff was to keep Adnan's parents from finding out about the cell phone, but Adnan's own father testified that he and his wife knew Adnan was getting a cell phone because he needed it for his job as an EMT. And remember when anon had called haye close to midnight on the 12th the night he got his cell phone that night we were talking about like why is he calling her so much and he's trying to give her his number so initially i said i don't understand why he was driving around that night and where he was i was like was he by hayes

house was he trying to find on well it actually turns out that his phone pinged right by where Bilal was attending dental school. And in the grand jury notes, Bilal was asked if he'd had the chance to see Adnan on the 11th, 12th, 13th, or 14th. And although we never do find out the answer because grand jury testimony is sealed, if Bilal did see Adnan the night of the 12th, the night before he was murdered, what would the purpose of that have been? Now let's keep going because there's other interesting things to see in Bilal's cell phone records, which conveniently enough are not included within the plethora of documents available on the Undisclosed Podcast website. Bilal's phone records show that he contacted Saad Chaudhry, Yasir Ali, Adnan's older brother, and a young man

named Imran Hasnuddin, who was actually a classmate of Adnan's as well as a member of Bilal's Islamic youth group. So these individuals were all contacted by Bilal before they were set to testify at the grand jury or before they were interviewed in regards to their grand jury statements. Between March 5th and April 8th, 1999, during the time that both Bilal and Saad Chaudhry would spend nine days cumulatively testifying in front of a grand jury, there were 34 calls made between them. Bilal was also in contact with Adnan's initial attorney, Chris Floor, who he spoke to at least nine times between March 1st and March 10th.

It looks like Bilal was very, very, very involved with Adnan and his family and his legal team, in the beginning at least, which is crazy because during the serial podcast, he was hardly mentioned as if he wasn't that important, when in reality, when Adnan was arrested, the first person he asked to speak to was Bilal, not his parents, not a lawyer, but Bilal. And Bilal visited Adnan in jail more times than almost anyone else. Cristina Gutierrez was not initially representing Adnan, and the state actually didn't want her to. They filed a motion to try and disqualify her from representing Adnan because they felt there was a conflict of interest, given that Gutierrez had represented two of the witnesses in the grand jury trial, Bilal and Saad.

It appeared that Adnan's team, his friends and his family and supporters, they wanted Cristina Gutierrez to be his lawyer so badly that both Saad and Bilal submitted conflict waivers in support of a brief that opposed the state's motion. So basically, what it looks like here is Bilal was having some inside information from being a part of the grand jury, from being in contact with Adnan's lawyer. In Adnan's initial

lawyer's notes, it seems like he's confused and he initially thinks that Bilal is actually a cousin or family to Adnan and then later he figures out that he's not. But Bilal was getting all sorts of information from being a part of the grand jury, which it's supposed to be sealed, and also from talking to Adnan's lawyer. And this information seemed to be getting back to Adnan's parents and even to Adnan. And it's most likely because allegedly Bilal was passing this back and forth. Now, in Rabia's book, she'll tell you that the reason the police subpoenaed Bilal's phone records on April 13th, 1999, was because he provided a solid alibi for Adnan, and they were looking for a way to, quote, shut that guy down. I don't think that

they were trying to shut Bilal down. I think they were suspicious of him once they found out about the cell phone and after hearing his testimony at the grand jury, because April 13th was the day they subpoenaed his cell phone records. It was also the day that Adnan was formally indicted. And when Sprint, the cell phone company, saw the number that the police wanted the records for and they saw that it was connected to a government account, they reached out to the DEA. And this caused a Baltimore police officer who was working on a DEA task force for drug trafficking to contact the detectives on Adnan's case and ask why they wanted information for that number.

Now, we aren't exactly sure why Bilal Ahmed was in possession of a cell phone that was connected to a DEA task force, but the theory is that Bilal was a CI. Maybe he'd gotten in trouble for some stuff that he was into and he made a deal to work as an informant. Now, on October 4th, 1999, Cristina Gutierrez submitted the defense list of alibi witnesses, which include Bilal. But then just 10 days later, on October 14th, Bilal, who was under surveillance at the time, was arrested for criminal sexual conduct with a minor. When he was arrested, Bilal had a picture of Adnan in his wallet, and the 14-year-old boy he was with was the son of a refugee family from either Kosovo

or Bosnia, a family that were part of the mosque community. This boy told the police that the sexual encounter was consensual, which, I mean, in my opinion, tells you that he was groomed, and I'm sure he wasn't the only one, and the boy also claimed that Bilal had brought him to visit Adnan in prison a few times. After Bilal was arrested for this, he was basically dropped from the defense list of witnesses, and no one really ever talked about him again, which is how I believe he came to fade from this case by the time the serial podcast got into it. It was convenient for everyone, especially Adnan's side, if Bilal just went away. Now, there are, of course, allegations that the police set Bilal up so that he wouldn't be able to testify, and this is just ridiculous, as we now know that the man has a

history of doing things like this. Remember, he was the dentist who sexually assaulted his male patients when they were unconscious. And at the time of Hay's murder, Bilal was married to a woman named Sama. Sama was from Pakistan, and her marriage to Bilal had been arranged by her mother. In Rabia's book, Adnan's Story, she writes, According to Sama, soon after she arrived in the United States, people started calling her older brother, scolding her family for marrying her off to Ahmed, a gay man. She had no idea these calls were happening. Her family kept it from her while they tried to find out what the

deal was with Bilal. More troubling were the calls that told them he's not just gay, he's a child molester. End quote. According to Rabia, Sama's brother hired a PI to look into these claims, and the PI filed a complaint with the police on October 12th, claiming suspicious behavior by an adult named Bilal Ahmed, who he saw pick up a juvenile boy every morning and bringing that boy to a parking lot where they would park for 30 minutes, and then he would bring the boy back home. This was why Ahmed was put under surveillance, and why he was eventually arrested. But he was never charged. And everyone wonders why. However, based on where you stand, you might have a different answer.

Pro-Adnan people believe that the police made a deal with Bilal, that if he didn't testify that Adnan had an alibi, they would just let him go. Now, if you aren't a person that makes everything fit the mold of Adnan was just set up by every single person involved in this investigation, you might think it had more to do with Bilal's possible status as a CI for the DEA. And the fact that he did have a phone that was connected to a DEA government account might be actual proof that this is more likely the reason. I should probably weigh in on this because I will say that the majority of my career as a detective was in narcotics. And I worked directly with and for the DEA and the FBI in numerous drug operations. And I can tell you definitively,

without any speculation, that there were multiple times where we would provide a CI with a phone that was under our account for this specific reason, because we wanted to make sure we had access to it. And that if there was a text exchange between our CI and the target of the investigation, we didn't need a warrant to go search that phone. It was our phone that the CI was using. It also ensured that if we needed to get in contact with the CI for any reason, they couldn't use an excuse that, oh, my phone was off or that I didn't pay the bill because it was our phone and we knew that it was active. And if we called them, we expected them to pick up, especially if we had caught them doing something else that we were not charging them with or left it pending until they completed whatever we wanted them to do for them. So I'm not saying that this was the case here.

I didn't work this case. I can only speak from my own personal experience. And I can tell you that I never gave anyone a government issued phone that was provided by either my police department, which we paid for, or by a federal agency, unless that person was in some capacity working for us and I needed to have access to them and be able to get in contact with them. So does this sound legit that if Bilal had this phone that was connected to a DEA agent who as soon as Sprint saw that, contacted the DEA, the DEA contacts Baltimore Police and they're like, what do you need this for? Does this sound legit that this might be the reason why? It absolutely is very, very possible.

And I would say there's even a situation where we have where if we're working a case federally, we have this thing called deconfliction where you're entering certain cell phones into a database. And if any local police department or state agency or another federal agency runs a particular number attached to us, it'll flag it and it'll let us know. And we would obviously call them and say, hey, you calling that number for because that's the case that we're working on so if yeah, if one of my CIS numbers popped and I'm using him for something and Baltimore Police Department or anybody for that matter is running a number that's attached to one of my CIS As a professional courtesy and because I want to know what's going on

I'm gonna give them a shout and say hey, what do you have going on here? Without giving you too much, that number is associated with something we're working with. Did this individual do something that you're going to be taking them down soon for? Because we need to know. We need to know if there's going to be an issue with our case because of your case. So that they would absolutely contact the authorities that are inquiring about the number to see what they have and what their intentions are. Now, does it sound more likely that Bilal was a CI or does it sound more likely that the police arrested him for having sexual contact with a 14-year-old boy and they were like, hey, if you just disappear and you don't testify that you saw Adnan at the mosque that night, we won't charge you for this. So just get out of here, dude. And also we won't charge you for that, but we're also going to give you a phone

that if we ever decide to charge you, we can contact you. No, the phone definitely came from the DEA. That exists. That's what I'm saying. I'm being sarcastic where it's like, hey, if you don't decide not to testify, we're going to let you go, but we are going to give you a phone that we pay for in case we need you down the road. Yeah. Am to let you go, but we are going to give you a phone that we pay for in case we need you down the road. Yeah. Is that, am I following you? Right? So I know you're kind of being, you're being serious, but also being sarcastic. If you told me, Derek, I need you to tell me what you think here with a reasonable degree of certainty, someone's going to argue and say, you're biased. You're a cop. So of course you're going to say that. I get it.

I can only speak from personal experience. We never did that nine out of ten times Ten out of ten times if if someone who's not directly correct connected to a law enforcement agency as an officer We would only only other person that would have a phone issued by us would be a confidential informant So what I'm saying is is like we're dealing with law enforcement both ways We're dealing with either the DA or we're dealing with like the prosecution and Baltimore PD. And is it more likely that the DEA has Bilal working as a criminal informant and that's why he may not have gotten hung up on those charges? Or is it more likely that the prosecution and the police on Adnan's case were like, oh, damn, this guy's giving a rock solid alibi and like we can't even

refute it. And if he goes to court and he says he saw Adnan at the mosque that night, our case is dead in the water. So Bilal, we're going to let you get away with sexually assaulting this 14 year old boy, just so you don't give an alibi that Adnan was at the mosque, because that's what this whole case is hinging on. Do I need to answer that? Nobody needs to answer that. It's pretty obvious. So Bilal would actually go through a divorce with his wife, and those divorce proceedings would begin in early December of 1999. But his wife, Sama, who ended up being a doctor, she allegedly told prosecutor Kevin Urich that before Heyman Lee's death, Bilal had told her that Hay was causing a lot of problems for Adnan, and he was upset by that.

And he also told her that he would make Hay disappear and kill her. Saima also claims that she was with Adnan and Bilal on the day that it was reported that Hay's body was found. And she says they both talked about what kind of ability the police had to determine the time of death. And then they both asked her as a physician what to determine the time of death. And then they both asked her as a physician what her experience with time of death was. So I'm just going to come right out and say it. I believe that Bilal was sexually abusing Adnan and had been since he was young. I mean, this is now a guy who has lots of strikes against him. We got him caught with a 14-year-old boy. We have other, you know, even Rabia said something like everyone kind of knew he was a

child molester. You know, she says that, like that this is what people were calling and saying to his wife. I don't understand why she would let her brother Saad speak to him so much during the time that Adnan was in prison. I mean, they had several calls between them as we had already went over. It looks like he kind of had this reputation for that. Maybe it was kind of suspected. But I mean, he's bringing this 14-year-old boy to visit Adnan in prison. Like, it's a very weird kind of dynamic. And, you know, I think that's probably what was happening. Is it connected to Hayes' murder? I don't know if I can necessarily say it is. I know that Bilal, I believe, is being considered as a suspect in this now in 2022, even though it's been so long

and for some reason, even though he was incredibly suspicious and did these horrible things and had a lot of connections to Adnan. He wasn't suspected at that point, but now he is being suspected. I don't know. But what do you make of all of it? Do you kind of agree? Well, first off, I think it's important to know because we did have some questions in the comments. You had said, I think episode two, don't quote me on that, but you had another person that you recently found that you thought could be good for it. And everyone's like, who was the person? It's Bilal. And I knew that at the time, obviously you gave me a little bit of a heads up without any context. So there's multiple ways you can take it. I definitely think Bilal's worth looking into. He's a scumbag. So could he

have done something like this? Absolutely. It brings me back to the question I asked earlier this episode, that let's say for this conversation, Bilal did kill Heyman Lee for Adnan, maybe without Adnan's knowing or he did know. But that again goes to the question of how did Jay figure into all this? How did he get all this guilt knowledge? Was it relayed to him by Bilal, who from what I've heard, didn't have a direct relationship with Jay? Or did Bilal tell Adnan and then Adnan relayed that information to Jay? That's another scenario. But let me give you a third scenario. Not trying to pin it on him, but let me just give you this third scenario. What if, according to Jay, Jay was not with Adnan when Adnan killed Heyman Lee. But what if Bilal was?

What if Bilal was there for most of this and he might have been present and assisted in some of this? Because it does appear Adnan was very close to Bilal and Adnan was the one who still relayed this information to Jay, but omitted the fact that he was with another party. Could it be? Maybe. I think at minimum, to answer your question more directly, I don't have a problem with Bilal being considered a

suspect based on his past behavior, based on his relationship with Adnan, based on the statements that you just told me about for the first time regarding Sama, where she basically said that Bilal said to her that he would, you know, kill Heyman Lee and make her disappear. That's his words, according to his ex-wife. And then more importantly, the fact that she was a physician, allegedly Bilal and Adnan together were asking her that later that day when Hay's body was found, how they would determine time of death. Why would that be a question you would ask anyone when your good friend and former girlfriend was just found murdered? Why would that be even something that was on your mind? I guess you could say that

he was hoping that information would help lead to the killer. And he was hoping that that would lead to, you know, finding out what happened to her because it wasn't him. But I think that's a stretch. And the fact that Bilal was concerned about it as well could indicate that maybe he was more involved than we currently know. Or if it's just Adnan, he had confided in Bilal at a later time about what he had done. And Bilal was willing to help him out in any way he could. It just seems like the relationship, like you said, Bilal and Adnan were very close. I wouldn't put it that way. They weren't very close?

Well, I mean, I wouldn't put it. Bilal was older than Adnan, I believe, my opinion, that there was some grooming going on. So when you see these instances, what you see is the younger person in the situation following the lead of the older person, no matter what that lead is, right? Because you've already kind of trusted each other that this stays between you, that it's not going anywhere. You feel like you have this secret. You feel like you have this special relationship. So whatever that other person says, the older person, the person who's doing the grooming, that younger person is usually going to follow. So while we might say, hey, Adnan, as he was, the good kid that he was on his own would

not have had anything to do with what happened to Haman Lee. But if Bilal, his mentor, his religious, you know, guider, if he's like, this is bad, she's bad for you, she's like, t tainting you she's doing horrible things and if he's an in here and anon's here like building him up and like you know making hey really like what did anon say you know the devil the devil who was like making him stray from his religion saying stuff like that makes it sound like this came from somebody else who was telling anon these things and he was relaying them to Hay. And then the final straw was when Hay broke up with him. And then Bilal's like, you know,

after all you did, you sacrificed your soul, your family, what you believe in for her and for her to just leave you for another guy, like this is a slap in the face. And if you've got somebody like in your ear constantly, somebody that you, I guess, trust because they've groomed you into trusting them, they've groomed you into basically following their lead and going along with whatever they say. This is a bad it's a it's a bad recipe for for really what maybe ended up happening. So this may not have been a non acting out of, acting out of his own volition and by Bilal covering up for him. It may have been something that Bilal sort of tempted him into if this is what happened, allegedly, my opinion. Yeah. And I mean, you could have a situation where the motive for Bilal is he's jealous of the relationship Hay has with Adnan. That's his person, right? He's

grooming him for him. So yeah, there could be a lot of motives behind that. But I think your direct question was, what do you make of all this? What do you think? I think it's good. I think it's good to look into Bilal. And I would love to be a fly on the wall as far as these new DNA tests that were recently conducted. And there was, I think they said three or four DNA profiles are they being compared to below could Bilal's DNA profile be found on heyman Lee's body or her clothes or her shoes or in her vehicle if they are Bilal's got some problems shouldn't be there right I don't believe he had direct contact with Heyman Lee in a situation where he'd be in her vehicle

or on her clothes or DNA his his dna on her clothes so that is someone that i think i'm paraphrasing here but someone who might have been on the radar back in the day and is now back on the radar again could that be below absolutely and that's why we're saying a lot we're on we're just ending part seven here and i know we're not fools we're not ignorant we know that this may come off as us coming after Adnan or thinking Adnan's guilty. Well, we're just relaying the facts as we see them. But with that all being the case, things like this are the reason why I think I speak for Stephanie when I say this, that although it doesn't look good for Adnan, we don't necessarily

think he should have been charged. And there's two different things there. Now, Stephanie may feel different. We didn't talk about this off camera, but that's kind of where I'm at going into part seven, where there's a lot of things here that do not look good for Adnan. And it is the totality of circumstances. So you could make a case for why Adnan was responsible for this, but things like this involving Bilal and some of the other information that we've had that creates that level of reasonable doubt, I could see it going either way where if they decided not to charge Adnan because they didn't feel they had enough, I wouldn't argue with it. Yeah. I mean, I think they definitely didn't have enough because if you think about it, what did they go into Adnan's arrest with? Jay's version of events, which is the most unreliable thing ever. Not saying he wasn't there because we do believe he was there. Why he kept changing his story so much is a completely different question. But that's what they went into Adnan's arrest with basically Jay and then we will talk about this

next episode but there is you know allegations that when Jay was being interviewed by the police I believe the second time you can hear them tapping you know and they're asking him questions and he's pausing and he's like well and he doesn't know how to answer and then you hear like a tap in the back and and they believe that that's the police tapping on maps or or tapping on specific like Points on the call log to show Jay to guide him on where to go And if that's the case, I think you would agree that is a problem That's a big problem especially when you have somebody like Jay who's so unreliable and can't get his story straight and you're helping him get the story straight when it's

Not even a strong story to begin with to stand on yeah but I could also make the argument that that was that was Jay tapping on the table because he was nervous you know so it's like yeah that's something you don't want to even go there because there's no proof that it was the police tapping on the table it could have been anybody it could have been like I just said it could have been anybody. It could have been, like I just said, it could have been Jay. So I think take away from this part, I think the cell phone data is very important. I believe in the tower data. I don't believe that what was relayed by Susan was her name. I think it's a stretch. I think it's a stretch. And I think there's other data that we didn't dive into exactly. And you guys can go into it and look at her blog look at all the other stuff another tower to look into is l653 i believe we had discussed it a little bit off camera

that's also something to look into that's open to interpretation there's an area where l653a and c kind of merge and right at that area if you're to believe susan's layout of the pie of the tower it kind of could be in the area of where Heyman Lee's body was ultimately found. And that could be a situation where we're not talking a different tower. We're talking a different panel on the same tower, which is a lot more believable to me. So that's something you guys might want to look into as well. But overall, it's very compelling. I think Bilal is someone that has a lot in his past that could have contributed to, at minimum, why Adnan decided to do what he allegedly did. But worst case scenario, he was actually there with Adnan if Adnan is in fact

guilty. Any final thoughts from you before we close it out? No, I'm just, you know, trying to work in my mind how I'm going to fit everything into one more episode but you know i'll do it blame me all you want listen in the comments way down below derek's a scrub for closing this down you know or derek's a hero we we had enough who knows that's not gonna happen i'm sure you'll get some i'm sure you'll get some heroes listen but i i will tell you straight up just for me i am a little fatigued by the case myself because it's so much i'm not bored i'm still very interested but feel like, I guess the right word would be almost demoralized because like everything you give me, for example, one example tonight with Christie, you're giving me this stuff about Christie, who was an impartial witness, who has really no skin

in the game. And I'm writing notes, writing notes. And I'm like, this is, this is bad. This is incriminating for Adnan. I got a whole speech planned for you after you're done and then you go however someone was able to discredit it and or at least bring up some level of doubt that that may not be the case how many times yeah over the last seven parts have you done no i don't mean to i'm sorry so my notebook is filled with like 14 pages of information that then after I finished writing it, I had to cross it out because you've given the opposite side to it. So I'm like, well, that means nothing now. So I feel like I just need something new because it's, it's, we know a lot of people care about this case. So we're trying to get it right. And we're not perfect. I've seen some of the

comments that disagree with certain things that we've, how we've assessed certain situations, given some theories, some people were upset that we've, how we've assessed certain situations, given some theories. Some people were upset that we, it sounded like we were defending Christina Gutierrez. I didn't take it that way. I took it more as you giving another side to it from her own son. We're not saying he's right. We're not saying that she shouldn't have been disbarred, but these are things that are out there that we're not going and gathering ourselves. We just didn't hear about them from other people. Definitely not saying she shouldn't have been dispired.

If she was ill and she couldn't, you know, have a memory, then like definitely she shouldn't have been working as a lawyer. But at the same time, as I brought up, like it looked like a non-side fought for this woman. They wanted her to be his lawyer and then to throw her under the bus now that she's dead and she's not here to defend herself. I'm sorry if I'm not comfortable with that. I'm not comfortable with that.

You can't just blame her because she's not here. You can't blame her for everything because she's not here. And to state that she purposely threw that trial and she purposely did not defend him to the best of her ability is, I think, false because her reputation showed that for the most part she was a good attorney that's all I'm saying and you know there may be like anecdotes here and there of people who were like oh I hated her she was a bad attorney but she was like esteemed so I don't know you know there's a reason that it non wanted her as his lawyer right there's a reason she had a good her as his lawyer, right? There's a reason. She had a good reputation, right? But until she didn't do what you wanted her to do and now you're throwing her under the bus, even though she's not here to defend herself, I got a problem with that.

And I would defend every single one of you in that same circumstance if you weren't here to stand up for yourself and give your side of the story. But yeah, I mean, I just think that some people have an issue and get upset anytime they hear something that doesn't align with their own worldview. And that's something maybe you have to look inside yourself and wonder why that is. It's not our problem. Overall, when we started this, we said right out, we're not trying to dispute anybody else who's covered it. We're doing it the Crime Weekly way.

Some of it you may agree with. Some of you may not. That's the point. We're supposed to be able to have these discussions, these debates, and maybe somewhere in the middle is the truth. Because as of right now, as we sit here today, yes, Adnan is free. But if you're to believe that Adnan's guilty or you believe that he's innocent, either way you slice it, Heyman Lee's killer is not in prison right now for that crime. So that's a travesty. And that's why we're covering it because as of right now the case is considered unsolved so

we're here covering the case from all angles we brought up multiple suspects will continue to do that in part eight we'll close this all out against Stephanie's will I'm gonna drag her to the finish line against her will and and like I already said I don't I think I don't know if it was during one of our breaks or in the episode but I won't be surprised if episode eight, although it's the last episode is 10 hours. So just be prepared. I have a feeling it's not going to be a short episode for episode eight. So if you're someone who wants more, you're, you're definitely going to get it. I'm going to do my best. I'm going to, I'm not going to make it much longer than like a three

hours. I'm really, I'm going to be responsible with this and you know. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. My ears appreciate you guys, as always appreciate you joining us here on crime weekly. Uh, have a good night. Stay safe out there. We will see you next week. Bye.