Crime Weekly - S2 Ep102: Hae Min Lee & Adnan Syed: The Conclusion (Part 8)

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

It was an unseasonably warm January afternoon in Baltimore County, Maryland when 18-year-old Woodlawn High School senior Hae Min Lee left school in her gray 1998 Nissan Sentra and headed out to pick up her six-year-old cousin from kindergarten before going to her job at the local LensCrafters. But sometime after leaving Woodlawn High School and before picking up her little cousin, Hae Min Lee vanished into thin air. Less than a month later, maintenance worker Alonzo Sellers was driving back to his job at Coppin State College and drinking a beer when he realized he had to use the bathroom, and it couldn’t wait. Mr. Sellers pulled over on the side of the road and walked deep into the woods to relieve himself, at which point he made a gruesome discovery. According to his later testimony, Mr. Sellers said quote, “when I looked down I seen something that looked like hair, something that was covered by dirt. And I looked real good again, and that’s when I seen what looked like a foot” end quote. Alonzo Sellers had stumbled upon the body of Hae Min Lee, she had been strangled to death by the bare hands of her attacker, and within a few weeks, the police would make an arrest for her murder. But, the suspect was a person that no one would have suspected capable of such a horrific crime, the ex-boyfriend of Hae, a sweet and smart 17-year-old named Adnan Syed. But, stay with us, because, it’s complicated… Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod Ads: Now, as a special offer, you can get $15 off your purchase of a Skylight Frame when you go Skylight Frame dot com and enter code CRIMEWEEKLY. That’s right. To get $15 off your purchase of a Skylight Frame just go Skylight Frame dot com and enter code CRIMEWEEKLY. That’s S-K-Y-L- I-G-H-T-F-R-A-M-E dot com, promo code CRIMEWEEKLY. PDS DEBT is offering free debt analysis to our listeners just for completing the quick and easy debt assessment at www.PDSDebt.com/crime. That’s P-D-S-D-E-B-T.com/crime. Take back your financial freedom today by visiting PDSDEBT.com/crime. This holiday season, trade late nights for silent nights and get started with Stamps dot com today. Sign up with promo code CRIMEWEEKLY for a special offer that includes a 4-week trial, plus free postage, and a free digital scale. No long-term commitments or contracts. Just go to Stamps dot com, click the microphone at the top of the page, and enter code CRIMEWEEKLY. Right now, BÉIS (base) is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase by visiting BEISTRAVEL.com/CRIMEWEEKLY. Go to BEISTRAVEL.com/CRIMEWEEKLY for 15% off your first purchase. That’s B-E-I-S-TRAVEL dot com slash CRIMEWEEKLY.

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apply. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're going into our eighth and final part of the Hey, Min, Lee, and Adnan Syed series. I'm ready to really dive in because we have a lot to talk about today. And despite popular belief, I don't want this episode to be four or eight hours. You know, I would like it to be a digestible sort of episode that really wraps everything up. So I do think that, you know, we might be bouncing around a little bit because I just wanted to cover important kind of, you know,

details that I didn't get to cover before and that I'm not going to get to talk about going forward because this is our last episode. So hopefully it's not too disjointed, but I do think it's understandable and it will also make a lot of people happy who have been bringing up things in the comments like, why aren't you talking about this? Or why aren't you talking about this? To sort of like wrap everything up, put a bow on it, and at the end we'll give our personal, you know, like opinions on the case and final thoughts. Does that sound good? Sounds great to me. And I the end, we'll give our personal, you know, like opinions on the case and final thoughts. Does that sound good? Sounds great to me. And I think that is something we talked about before you started writing the script for this, where we were kind of going back and forth as far

as some of the dissenting opinions and what they were basing that opinion on. What were the things they were going towards? And I do feel like when we went over our checklist, we have hit every single thing that people were bringing up as a potentially justifiable reason as to why Adnan's innocent. So I feel like we hit those things tonight. I think the one thing, and I don't know, I haven't read the script yet, but I do know some people talk about the police, the investigators themselves and how they had a pass. Are we hitting that tonight? No, that wasn't on our checklist, Derek. And the reason I say that, and that's why I didn't think we did. I acknowledge it. I've seen some of the stuff with Ritz, I believe his name is. So I'm not sitting here saying

that they were good cops because clearly they weren't the greatest cops because take away what they did after this case or what they were exposed to before as far as what they were involved with. Regardless, just as in a vacuum, this particular investigation wasn't conducted at the level it should have been. And that's part of the reason why we're here. So not even acknowledging those things about what lengths they were willing to go to get their person, whatever it was doing, just looking at the case from a factual standpoint, they could have done a lot more and we might not be sitting here today. But as far as do I think these two officers may have skirted the line or done things that weren't ethical? Yeah, they could have absolutely been pointing Jay down a certain road to make it line up. But that's those two individuals or three individuals. We've talked

about pathologists. We've talked about lawyers. We've talked about all these different witnesses. They would all have to be in on it. And I think we both agree that that doesn't appear to be this collaborative effort amongst many different people from different backgrounds who all decided to get together to go after one person. So we're not going to hit on that tonight, but we do acknowledge that these cops were not the type of cops you want working your case. And that's that minimum at maximum. They probably shouldn't have been police officers at all. Half the stuff you guys have pointed out to us, they were involved in. They shouldn't have been there when they were there. So other than

that, I think we hit everything else. Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the things we kept coming back to throughout these seven episodes that we were frustrated by the way the police investigation went down. We were frustrated because if it was you or, you know, a cop who knew how to do an investigation properly, you would see a lot more stuff documented. We would have a lot less questions. We wouldn't be asking like, oh, did they check this out? I hope they check this out. You know, we wouldn't be asking that stuff. And that leads to so much of the confusion that this case has, along with the fact that Adnan had no alibi, kind of was very shady about wanting to be specific and Jay being too specific, you've really got a cluster that contributes to our confusion and frustration with this case. So they didn't do a good job. That goes without saying. But I do agree if you're going to talk about a higher conspiracy, I'd have to have some

motive of why these cops had such a hard-on, honestly, for this 17-year-old kid that they'd never encountered before. Adnan had not been in trouble with the law before. What was their problem with him, somebody they didn't even know, who was literally a kid with his whole life ahead of him? And you could say they were racist or they were against his religion. But once again, as Derek said, then you're going to have to add in all these extraneous people who were part of this investigation, who were also in on it and who were also against Adnan and his religion and hated him and wanted to see him

spend his life in prison strictly because of who he prayed to. And that's very, very difficult to believe that that could happen in 1999, you know, or anytime, really. That's not, I feel like we've kind of progressed as a culture since then. And there'd be people and checks and balances that would be in place if those two detectives were on the warpath, specifically for some prejudice. And they'd be

like, hey, guys, you got to chill out. Like, you can't be doing this. You can't be doing this. And that doesn't seem to happen. It seemed like everybody was kind of on the same page, which is, Adnan was suspicious and they followed that lead and maybe they were overzealous. We will never really know. We'll never really know so much about this. But here we are. Here we are. Episode eight. The final episode. So in these past seven episodes, we have covered the majority of the timeline, even though we did like bounce around quite a bit, right? So we started from when Heyman Lee and Adnan Syed were newly dating and in love. We went through their tumultuous on again, off again, hot and cold relationship, which was defined by, you know, this really passionate connection, but also these secret meetings and keeping things from both sets of parents. And

this ultimately led to feelings of guilt on both sides. And we went through Hay feeling as if what she and Adnan had was not necessarily maybe worth the trouble of him compromising who he was, of her compromising who she was. Once the rose-colored glasses were off, Hay began to fall for a new guy, an older man that she worked with at LensCrafters, Don. And when she could no longer hide her feelings for Don, Hay broke up with Adnan, not for the first time, but for the last time. We also talked about how Hay and Adnan reportedly remained friends, best friends, and how they gave each other Christmas gifts and how Hay would sometimes still give Adnan rides here and there. We talked about the day that Hay Min Lee went

missing, how the timeline really isn't set in stone because so much is still left unknown, once again due to really a lackluster police investigation, and we talked about how Hay's body was later found in Leakin Park and that she had been manually strangled to death. We went over how law enforcement went through Adnan's cell phone records. This led them to Jen Pusateri, a girl who was not friends with Adnan but who was very good friends with Jay Wilds, a former Woodlawn High School student who still sold weed to some Woodlawn High School students, including Adnan Syed. We talked about Jay's claims that Adnan had confessed to him that he'd killed Hay.

And we talked about Jay's claims that he had helped Adnan bury Hay's body in Leakin Park. We talked about Adnan's alibi for the day that Hay went missing and how it can't be verified. The fact that he was at track practice, the fact that he was at mosque that evening for evening prayers, none of those things can be verified by, you know, multiple witnesses. And we also talked about Jay's changing stories and how none of those stories can really be verified. We know that Adnan was arrested. He was charged with first degree murder. And now I do want to quickly go over his legal fights in court, which is something that we have referred to throughout these episodes as far as like what certain people testified to on the stand and things like that. But we haven't really spoken about them in detail and we haven't really

talked about, you know, how they went down because he had more than one trial. So Adnan's first trial began in December of 1999. And within a week, that trial would end in a mistrial. Now, a lot of people actually don't know why this trial ended in a mistrial. So I'm going to tell you. And it really didn't have anything to do with Adnan or the evidence at hand. It had more to do with Adnan's attorney, Cristina Gutierrez. So it seemed that Cristina Gutierrez was kind of ready for a fight and I believe it was the first or second day when she was kind of getting feisty and she called Kevin Urich one of

the prosecutors an asshole and then the prosecution complained to the judge about it the other prosecutor was like hey Christina Gutierrez just called my co-counsel an asshole and then the judge William Quarles, he was like, oh, I didn't hear that. So, you know, it kind of moved on and nothing happened from there. But then a few days later, there was another incident where Yurik asked the judge if he could show an exhibit to the jury. And this exhibit happened to be Adnan's cell phone records from January 12th, 13th, and 14th. And then Christina Gutierrez basically said out loud, like, oh, no, we can't show those to the jury.

I haven't seen them yet. And Yurek was like, no, that's not true. You have seen them. You've already acknowledged that they're here and you've already agreed to allow them to be part of the evidence in this trial. And Gutierrez was like, yes, but I haven't physically seen this exhibit. I haven't looked at these specific records. So Judge Quarles called both sides to the bench. And he basically outright accused Christina Gutierrez of lying. He said, quote,

Ms. Gutierrez, if you're going to stand there and lie to the jury about something that you agreed could come in, I'm not going to permit you to do that, end quote. So then Christina, she tried to respond and she was like, I'm not lying. And then tried to explain herself. But the judge cut her off and he said, quote, that was a lie. You told a lie. I'm not going to permit you to do that, end quote. So at this point, Christina Gutierrez, she's defensive,

she's pissed. And she was like, it wasn't a lie. And I resent that implication. And then an argument ensues between Christina Gutierrez and Judge William Quarles. And it was obviously loud enough that many members of the jury were privy to this exchange. And they kind of heard what was going on. They basically heard the judge accuse the defense attorney of being a liar. So the judge, Judge Quarles, he then received a note from one of the jurors. And this note asked, quote, in view of the fact that you've determined that Ms. Gutierrez is a liar, will she be removed? Will we start over? End quote. So as soon as Christina Gutierrez realized

that, you know, the judge had gotten a letter like this from the jury, she obviously felt the jury was tainted against her, that they wouldn't trust what she had to say, which is valid. I understand exactly why she felt that way. And she filed a motion for a mistrial, and then Judge Quarles granted that motion. And reportedly, allegedly, before this mistrial was declared, trial one was going well for Adnan, and the jury was polled after the first trial, and they had given indications that they were going to vote to acquit, at least by that point in the trial. And by this time, basically what had happened is the prosecution had given their, you know, they go first. The prosecution goes first, they deliver their narrative, and then the defense will follow. And the prosecution had pretty much

put forward their whole case. And all the jury hadn't heard was the AT&T expert testimony and Jen Pusateri's testimony. And I guess Christina Gutierrez polled the jury once the mistrial was declared, which she can do to kind of get an idea of how they're feeling and which way they were leaning. And I guess the jury was leaning to acquit Adnan. But I will say that the AT&T testimony did seem to be a big factor in him being found guilty in the second trial due to those pings. So we don't really know how the first trial would have gone had it been allowed to continue. Yeah. And I had heard some things that clearly doesn't appear to be the case where possibly this all this exchange happened because

Christina Gutierrez felt like she was losing the first trial. But from what you're saying, that doesn't appear to be the case. And I was seeing it not in any valid sources, but we had talked about this before we recorded today on Reddit, some different people going back and forth. And there are some pretty good sources on there on certain occasions. But some of that I also think is a telephone game where people start to speculate. And as it gets spread, goes from speculation and an opinion to Some unknown source that they can't find again, but what they did have a source at the time that confirmed this to be true

So I feel like what you explained makes perfect sense It does happen from time to time and I think even though Gutierrez felt like maybe she felt like she was winning that trial It could change very quickly where the jury's starting to feel one way. But now you have a judge who, in most cases, the jury looks up to and looks to for guidance as far as their mannerisms, how they're interpreting information. That could sway a jury where now anything that comes out of Christina Gutierrez's mouth, especially her closing argument, the jury could be looking at her with this lens of, I'm not going to believe a word she's saying because even the judge thinks she's lying. A hundred percent. That's exactly what would happen. Yeah, I see where she's coming from. So makes sense. Can't have that happen. So I'm glad we have clarification on that now that it wasn't something specifically to do with the case itself. It was more so a communication between lawyers and judge that was unfortunately overheard by the jury. Sometimes they'll clear the room when they have those conversations. I guess

in this case, the judge didn't plan on it going there. And unfortunately, by the time it did, it was too late. Well, check it out. So apparently, because I spend way too much time looking at each detail, apparently they have these white noise machines that they'll play at the bench sometimes if they don't want to clear the whole room. And so they'll play this white noise at the bench, and then that's supposed to cover up the conversation. But yeah, Christina Gutierrez got heated. And I'm going to be completely honest with you, I don't blame her because that was messed up. That could have just been a miscommunication. She was trying to explain herself about what she meant by she hadn't seen it or seen that exhibit. And the judge was just like cutting her off and calling her a liar. And where I come from, if you call me a liar, you better come correct. And you better have your argument lined up. And you better not be cutting me off when I try to explain why I'm not a liar, because those are fighting words. Okay. So she got heated and I understand you shouldn't be calling people a liar and the judge should have known better. And I don't know if this is a hot take, but Judge Quarles should have known better. You can't be calling the defense attorney a liar

because yeah, the jury's going to second guess everything she says now. It's terrible. Real quickly, will I be seeing you at the next conference? I know I'm going to be there representing the fanboy club for Jose Baez. Are you going to be there as the president of the Christina Gutierrez fan club? What conference? The defense lawyers? Yeah, where all the fan clubs get together. And so me being such a fan of Jose Baez, I feel like you've showed a lot of passion over these last few episodes about Christina Gutierrez as well. hard for people who were underserved she fought hard for people who couldn't afford the kind of caliber of defense that she provided them and I respect the hell out of that and also like don't be calling me a liar man those are fighting words I understand you got to get upset you can't let people just be willy-nilly I don't care who you are judge no judge you're not calling me a liar and getting away with it hell no well noted my My fanboy club, my lawyer is still

practicing. Yours is unfortunately deceased. I'm not making a joke there, but was disbarred. Your lawyer is still a liar and I'll call him that. Oh yeah. Fighting words, like I said. We're sending a letter. Cease and desist. Send him a letter because if he wants to argue about why I think... Cease and desist. Send your boy Jose Baez a letter so we can argue about why he's a liar because i've got my argument and i will come correct but i do want to mention something about reddit because i read in one of our reviews there was like a one-star review and somebody was like reddit is not research you're an idiot okay first of all we don't use reddit as research second of all listen i was on board with the whole reddit sucks like several years ago, but people know their shit on Reddit, okay? They know their shit. Not all, but some.

And if you can find the gems, you are like very lucky because especially with this case, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages of transcripts and interviews. And there would be points where the Redditors and especially like a few that I found, I want to send you guys fruit baskets or something because you made my job much easier. They would be like, oh, if you want to see where Jay says this, it's on page blah, blah, blah in the transcript. And then they would link it, man. They would link it. It's like having your own personal little research assistant. So like, no, Reddit's not research, but having them help you find your place in the case quicker is research. I agree with you. We were talking about this earlier today. I was someone who had this negative perspective of Reddit before starting with you. And you were like, yeah, I went to Reddit. Remember, I was like, I don't use Reddit.

But doing, especially in this case, I have had to do some of my own research, especially for my closing opinions and also to kind of vet things out that you've said to make sure that we're on the right page, different things like that. And I will say 100% it's exactly what you said, where you're looking for a particular item, a particular document, a lot of these individuals have already done it. So it saves you a little bit of time where you're looking for the autopsy report or a particular affidavit. So, yeah, I'm not sitting there being spoon-fed opinions by people that are nameless and are using these anonymous tags to, oh, maybe they're on to something there. But more so, I'm definitely open and receptive to hearing what people have to say. But more so, I'm focusing on the documents they're providing and the links to it.

And then you develop your own opinion, which everyone can do. And like former detective, I see, I definitely see value in Reddit, especially if you're going to the more credible, there's some posts that are just trolls, but there's some good ones there where people are really just trying to find answers. And it's a good group to be around. Yeah. Well, giving a one-star review on a well-researched podcast and then using your excuse for that to say say Reddit isn't research, you're a troll. Okay. With this series, we can get a lot of one-stars. We can get a couple of one-stars here and there.

People are not happy with us being honest about our own opinions while also just putting out the facts as we see them. So it's going to happen when you cover a case like this, that's so polarizing. We, but we knew this, we said it before we covered it. It's not like we're surprised by it. When you cover cases that are known by a large, a large group of people,

you're going to have individuals who disagree with you. And in some situations, those people can't deal with someone having a differing opinion than their own. And so they really can't. That's the thing. They're not even giving us like they're not even giving us the chance to explain because it just it triggers them so badly to hear something that doesn't coincide with what's

already in their head that they lash out. So everyone who's here who loves us because we know you guys are out there. We see you go over there. Give us a five star review on Crime Weekly to just like tamp out those trolls and salty people who just don't like to step outside of their echo chamber and wipe them out because they need to be. Great. We need a lot more ones. I don't think so. I don't think so.

We have more amazing people than we have sucky people. I agree. I agree. We haven't had that many, to be honest with you. We had a few here and there, but most people are pretty constructive, even if they don't like what we're saying. So shout out to everybody who's already rated and give it because we do read the comments. We do read them all. So before we keep going, let's take our first break. We'll be right back. So Adnan's second trial began in January of 2000, and this trial was to be heard by Judge Wanda Hurd.

And Christina Gutierrez was once again Adnan's lawyer. She went into this second trial with the same strategy as the first, to basically convince the jury that someone else besides her client had been responsible for the murder of Hay Min Lee. And really, that person she wanted the jury to know was Jay Wilds. So Gutierrez claimed that the only reason Adnan's group of friends hung out with Jay was because Jay was connected to Stephanie. And if Stephanie broke up with Jay, no one would even call or associate with Jay. Christina Gutierrez said that there was speculation that Jay was at the high school all the time and he would often borrow Stephanie's car, but sometimes he would borrow

other people's cars a few different nights a week because he was cheating on Stephanie. And Christina Gutierrez continues on to say that about a week before Hayes' disappearance, Jay had borrowed someone else's car to meet with this other girl that he was cheating on Stephanie with. And actually, I'm just going to read from the transcript. Quote, and as this particular day, all of the students went to an assembly, Hay Lee, with her particular, born of her brand of loyalty and commitment, confronted her soulmate, who she saw as shielding the guy from being caught by his girlfriend, by persuading her, Stephanie, to not go look for Jay because he knew Jay would have another woman with him. And yes, Hayley was upset with Jay Wilds, whom she didn't like. She never chose to

be with. Hayley and Adnan never went out with Stephanie and Jay Wilds. She didn't have to tolerate Jay Wilds because she never chose to spend her precious available time with her chosen one in the presence of others unless it was an event. But she reserved most of her anger on that day towards her boyfriend. How dare he hide another man who was cheating and lying on his best friend, end quote. So I've got some problems with this because I'm not in the Christina Gutierrez fan club at all. And honestly, I see why people mention that, you know, maybe she didn't do the best job of defending him, but that doesn't necessarily mean she did it on purpose. Once again, you know, lawyers, defense lawyers, they have to they have to make a decision going in. Like, where am I going with this? What plan of action am I taking? And this was what she decided to do, basically saying that Jay was cheating on Stephanie. Hay found out. Hay got mad at Adnan because Adnan was covering up for Jay.

And because of that, Hay, I guess, was targeted by Jay. And I just don't buy it because, first of all, we know she's saying this happened a week before Hay's death. A week before Hay's death, Hay was not dating Adnan. She didn't consider him to be her soulmate. She may have gotten mad at him if she found out that Jay was cheating on Stephanie because she knew that Adnan and Stephanie were good friends and Hay and Stephanie were friends as well. So she may have had a conversation with Adnan if that happened he's never really said anything about it he didn't mention anything about it on the serial podcast but I he they weren't dating at this point so I don't really understand where she's coming from and it's almost as if she

doesn't understand the timeline because she keeps referring to Adnan as Hay's boyfriend, her chosen one, things like that. But at this point, Adnan and Hay are not dating and they haven't been for, you know, roughly, I believe it was two or three weeks that they had broken up. They'd broken up before Christmas. Yeah, I'm looking at this too. And if you guys are watching on YouTube on audio, it's not going to affect you. But if you're watching on YouTube, I have like eight pages of notes that I'm going to go over with you tonight. And as we're still, I left room here to add on to certain things that I want to discuss. One of them being, if something came up tonight and one of them is now going to include this

small portion of the relationship between Jay and Hay, because I was uncertain as far as were they super close? Were they just, were they friends because of association with that non and Apparently that wasn't the case which I do put thing plays into Not the scenario that you just talked about as far as maybe hey seeing something and that being a motive But also the other theory as far as Jay would have called hey and said hey Can you come to the mall with me and pick out a charm? That wouldn't be something that would happen and if it did happen I think based on what you said to me mall with me and pick out a charm, that wouldn't be something that would happen. And if it did happen, I think based on what you said to me, Hay would probably say no. So just something

that I'm adding here as I'm writing. So don't think I'm not listening to you, but really interesting stuff. I mean, if any of this actually happened and I don't, I don't see how any of this did happen. It's like the first we're hearing of it in the second trial that Jay was cheating on Stephanie and Hay found out and got in a fight with Adnan about it. I mean, I would say this, she's got to get it from somewhere, right? She didn't just pull it out of thin air. So I would assume that Adnan told her this. Adnan told her, Hey, Heyman Lee does not like Jay Wilds. Okay. But I mean, do we have cooperation from any other single person that this happened no no that's fair but i think i think it's even if this scenario didn't happen adnan simply saying uh when me and

hay were together she didn't like me hanging out with jay she didn't like the association between the two of us she saw jay as a bad dude and really didn't like what he was doing with his girlfriend and you see this all the time where if your buddy's someone who's a scumbag, your girlfriend or wife doesn't want you hanging out with that person because you are the company you keep. So I think it's not much of a stretch for Adnan to maybe mention to Christina. She would have never had a relationship with Jay because she didn't like him. So that could also be a motive why Jay's out here saying this stuff about me

because he knew Heyman Lee never liked him. Yeah, but that's stupid. That doesn't make any sense. And the timeline doesn't add up because she's saying this happened a week before this whole assembly and Hey yelling at her boyfriend Adnan about protecting Jay. This happened a week before Hey went missing, but they weren't dating. Hey and Adnan were not dating. They'd been broken up by then. So the whole timeline doesn't just,

it just doesn't make any sense. But anyways, Christina Gutierrez basically says it was Jay. It could only have been Jay. He knew where Haye's body was. He knew where her car was. His shovels had been used to bury her. And I think this is where she really messed up because we've already established the fact that we feel the same way. Jay had to have been involved, right? He had to have been there. But he's also never denied those facts. He said he was involved. He said he was there. He said that they used his shovels. He said that he helped Adnan bury Hay's body. So it's not like she's telling us something that's like earth shattering. But he also said that Adnan was there, right? So

I guess in my opinion, Christina Gutierrez, she does a good job of acting as like a prosecutor towards Jay Wilds, which she didn't need to because he had already admitted to all of that. But during all of that, she does seem to have forgotten to defend Adnan because we aren't really blind to the fact that just because you've proved Jay was there, it doesn't automatically mean that Adnan wasn't. So she wasn't really able to prove that Adnan wasn't there because once again, we have no alibi. So she just spent a lot of time trying to convince us that Jay was there, which he'd already admitted to. So I don't know. It must have been really, what kind of defense would you have at this point when your client doesn't have an alibi?

What's the most you could say is you just try to pin it on somebody else, but that somebody else happened to claim that he did this crime with your client and you haven't disproved that. That is a conundrum. I think what you're saying is exactly what happened, where she's looking at her client. He doesn't have a strong alibi. I think what you're saying is exactly what happened where she's looking at her client. He doesn't have a strong alibi. Nobody can really put him at a particular location that would not be where Hay was at the time. Nobody can vouch for him and say, there's no way he could have done it because he was with me. And he doesn't have particularly a great memory about what happened that day, which doesn't look great as well. And then you have the situation

where as far as the defense is concerned, it's not their responsibility to prove or disprove the prosecution's case, but their job is to raise reasonable doubt to enough where the jury says, yeah, the prosecution makes a good argument. However, the defense has also brought up some other scenarios that are equally good. And therefore I'm doubting whether who's telling the truth or who's right. And in that particular case, if that's the situation and there's been enough reasonable doubt brought to the table, the jury's responsibility is to find the defendant not guilty. And so I think she was really focusing on that intentionally because she really didn't have a lot of key points to go to as far as showing that Adnan could not have committed this crime. She had to kind of, I don't want to call them distractions, but like you said,

raise other potential scenarios that had some validity to them so that the jury would say, yeah, you know what? The prosecution, they make some good points, but I don't know about that Jay. He just as easily could have done this all by himself and hopefully get that acquittal. Well, it was done badly then. It was executed poorly because she didn't bring a valid or a believable motive. Are we supposed to believe Jay Wilds killed Hay because Hay found out that jay was cheating on stephanie and she got mad at it not about it like that's not a good that's not a good enough motive and we know that's not even your opinion by the way that he was found guilty so clearly the jury

agrees with you that she didn't make a good argument right yeah and i do see though why people might have a problem with christinaierrez's strategy, because what she should have been doing was trying to raise reasonable doubt about a whole different part of the case, which was Adnan's alibi. So she should have been saying, and maybe Asia McLean would have been the right person to bring up at that point, because you may not be able to prove Asia's alibi 100 percent, but it does plant a seed of doubt in the jury's mind and that's what the defense is supposed to do so the fact that christina gutierrez did completely ignore asia and kind of write her off as a valid witness somebody who could have potentially raised reasonable doubt was a bad decision it was a bad strategy however i will once again say that's not necessarily nefarious it It's just she chose the wrong strategy for that client and for that case. We see this happen with defense lawyers all

the time. If you remember Jose Baez, he was initially saying like, oh, Casey Anthony didn't know anything about this Casey Anthony. And then all of a sudden out of nowhere, he drops the bomb that like George Anthony killed Kaylee. And nobody expected that. And it was out of the blue. He pivoted. He switched gears halfway through the trial because he realized his initial strategy maybe wasn't as convincing as he hoped it would be with the jury. And a good defense lawyer is going to sort of watch the jury and see how they're reacting to things. They're going to have, you know, an idea of body language and things like that. and they're going to tailor their strategy to that as they go on. But Christina Gutierrez didn't seem to do that. So I do understand why people have an issue with how she defended Adnan. That was just a bad choice of strategy. I don't think it was nefarious or purposeful. Asia had been a part of that second trial and she'd brought up that alibi, the library alibi, it could have raised enough reasonable doubt to make a difference and he may have been found

innocent. So I do completely agree with the pro and non people on that matter, 100%. It would all depended on how well Asia testified. That's what it came down to, how much they believed her. When she's on that stand, the presentation, prepared she sounded, believable she was. And I agree with you. If they believed Asia after her testimony was done, well, Adnan can't be in two places at once. So I agree with you. It could have resulted in a completely different outcome. I mean, dude, because I don't really believe Asia.

Like logically, like my logical brain, I don't really believe Asia. But for me, that's still reasonable doubt. Like it still makes me think and makes me wonder enough where I would have a problem finding this like teenage kid guilty of murder and putting him in prison for the rest of his life. So and I do think Asia would have been a killer witness to like, you should have seen her. I don't know if you saw the HBO Dacu series, but she was on it and she spoke very confidently. She doesn't falter. She makes eye contact. She sounds very sure of what she's saying.

And I think she would have made a very good witness. Yeah, what could have been? Yeah, but that's how life goes. That's the lawyer that you chose and this is what they chose to do. And I did remember reading something where Adnan said Christina Gutierrez was never bad to him. He never mistrusted her. He never felt like she wasn't paying attention to him. She was constantly in contact with him. She made sure that he had cream for his skin when he had a rash and she got him new glasses and things like that. She was always wondering how he was doing. And he said, you know, I just I trusted her. Like I left the strategy portion up to her because she's the lawyer and she knows what she's doing. And why am I going to, you know, get in the way of that? I would say, you know, you should be

privy to what your your lawyer's strategy is. If you're if you don't want to go to prison for the rest of your life, you know, you should probably be more of an active participation in your like own defense. But once again, he's a kid and he doesn't realize that he needs to be. He thinks the adults are going to take care of things. So I get it. It kind of sucks. And he doesn't seem to have ill will towards her. So I'm not sure why so many pro and non people do have ill will towards her because I don't think she did this on purpose at all. And if somebody has evidence that she did. Defending Christina again.

If somebody has evidence that she did because there's a lot of claims going on. They're like, how dare she? How dare she defend Christina? If you have evidence that she's this bad person who maliciously tried to send Adnan to prison, email me, Stephanie Harlow at StephanieHarlow.com. I'll read it. I'll look at it. And I will give it the benefit of the doubt and an open mind. Please give me some proof and evidence.

So during the prosecution's opening statement, Kevin Urich, he laid it out for the jury, saying that when Hay broke up with Adnan, she did it because she truly loved him, and she knew that the relationship was causing pain and trouble for them both. And Yurek said, quote, The defendant, however, had a different reaction. In order to have this relationship, he had to live a lie. He'd had to lie to his parents. He'd had to lie to his religious friends. He was living a lie, denying to them that he was engaging in the activities that

were forbidden in their culture. This is a great sacrifice. It was a double life for him. He was leading a lie. And when it ended, that's all he had left was that lie that he'd been leading. He became enraged. He felt betrayed that his honor had been besmirched, and he became very angry and set out to kill Heyman Lee, end quote. Yeah, that's a really weak argument, man. Like, I don't know. He just said leaving, leading a lie and living a lie and lie, lie, lie a lot. And, you know, once again, I think we did discuss this during one of the first episodes. devout religious person in order to prove that hey min lee breaking up with him after she had like led him astray would have caused that reaction in him that you know he would turn on her based on like his culture and and traditions and things like that i think if it non killed her it was more of a honestly like no offense to you because you're a man, but more of like a manly like ego pride thing. Like how dare she do this to me? I sacrificed everything for her. Like

I did lie to my family, but it wouldn't have anything to do necessarily with religion. It would be like I put myself in a bad position for you and then you just left me for someone else. And were you dating this person when you were dating me for someone else and were you were you dating this person when you were dating me I think that's the big thing here that a lot of people overlook because there was overlap with Don and Adnan and maybe we don't like to talk about it because it does you know not shine a great light on hey but once again she was a teenage girl and teenage girls do these things but she did appear to be sort of having a relationship

with don before she'd officially broken up with adnan and if he found out about that once again an ego thing a pride thing and that would have caused him to lash out i really don't think it had anything to do with like um his his muslim religion or things like that so you kind of you kind of caught me there because i don't want to give too much away of my final thoughts because I have a lot of notes here, but I will say I disagreed with you. And then I agreed with you because it kind of felt like you were saying both things. I do feel like Adnan felt, he wasn't a religious person where he was a devout Muslim and found it serious. Because if he did, he wouldn't have dated her in the first place. But I do think he viewed what he sacrificed for her by creating

this dissension with his own family members, having them really be upset with the life he was living, and him kind of passively pointing that out to her like, hey, look what I've done for you. You're the devil. Ha ha ha. I feel like there was some truth to that. So when he realized or potentially realized that her eyes were wandering towards another person, it was an ego thing in that sense where it's like, how dare you not respect what I've sacrificed, what I've done for you. And to have maybe a final conversation with her about it where he's looking at her maybe in the car remembering her as one person where they talked about how much they loved each other and in that conversation he sees nothing but space behind her eyes because

she's thinking about another man she's already moved on and that could enrage him to know that she's truly over him if that's what happened so So I don't love the way he worded it. I agree with you there. And I don't think he was sitting there going, how could she disrespect me and my religion like that? But I do feel like some of the things that double life that he was living for her, for her to turn around and slap him in the face by doing this. There is that egotistical aspect there where it's like, how dare you disrespect

me like that when I've done so much for you? So I think we kind of, are we on the same page? I feel like we are. Yeah, absolutely. I just don't think, I don't like the way that the prosecution kind of brought it back to like his tradition and his culture and his religious friends. Like you don't have enough to support that. And what I think, like, if you look at the dance, right, the dance that kind of was the catalyst to them breaking up for good. His parents came, made a big scene, dragged him out of the dance, yelled at Hay. And what happened? He got on his bike and he went back to that school to see her in their faces, like basically saying, like, this person's more important to me than you are at this point. I care more about what she thinks about me and how she feels right now than I care about what you think about me

and how you feel right now. And that's a big thing to do as an adolescent boy, a young boy growing up to finally kind of make that distinction between like your familial love and romantic love and move away from one and into the other psychologically, it's a big shift. So he may have felt like this was a big thing that I did. This was a big show of my devotion.

I thumbed my nose at my own family, the people who've always been there for me, for you. And then you turn around and do this, like that meant nothing to you when it meant everything to me. So that's where I'm at, yeah. So we're on the same page then. And by the way, this isn't completely speculative. If you're to believe anything that Bilal said, he was telling friends this as well, people he was close with that, that this thing that was going on with Hay was actually affecting him enough where he was confiding in people he was

close to letting them know how much it was affecting him. So again, this isn't just out of left field from what we've heard from other people that were close to him. This definitely had an impact on Adnan. Before we continue, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Okay, we're back from break. And I wanted to kind of tag something on to what you said before we went to break when you were saying that Adnan was talking to people about how, you know, this whole thing with Hay was kind of tearing him up. And we do have evidence of that outside of Bilal and she said Adnan came into her classroom and he was saying the same thing. Like, can, you know, a relationship between people who are of two different backgrounds and two different cultures and religions work? Like, why is it so hard? Things like that. So this was definitely on his mind. And it is possible, you know, that it was too much for him. He hadn't developed the coping skills and the self-esteem and the self-confidence at this point to not feel completely betrayed by this. So Adnan was found guilty in the second trial on February 25th, 2000. And like I said, the jury was polled after this. They usually will do that. They'll do that like after they give the verdict.

And I can see in the transcripts that all of the jurors said that, yes, they were in agreement. So it was basically unanimous. And there was one juror who it says no audible response in the transcript. So either they didn't respond or the person transcribing didn't hear them. But basically, listen, like every single juror member was like, yes, I'm in agreement. Yes, I'm in agreement. And it was two hours. I'm going to bring that up later in this episode. But two hours is a very short time for a jury to go out and debate and talk about a case. This is important, right? Because you're not just talking about some random guy who's on trial for murder. You're talking about a high school kid. You're talking about, you know, at this point, an 18-year-old that if you come back and say guilty, he's going to be in prison for the rest of his life. His life is over. So you want to be damn sure that you're doing the right thing. His life's in your hands. And they came back within two hours. So they were clearly convinced. And I do want to talk to you a little bit about the judge in this case, Judge Wanda Hurd, who has recently come out in the wake of Adnan's charges being dropped,

and she's announced that she still stands behind his conviction. In October of 2022, when all of this started happening, all of these new developments started happening, Judge Hurd came out in support of the family of Hayman Lee, who were demanding more information about the alleged evidence that had prompted Baltimore State Attorney Marilyn Mosby to overturn Adnan's conviction. The family lawyer, Steve Kelly, said, quote, if the wrong person had been behind bars for 23 years, the Lee family and the rest of the world want to understand what new evidence has led to that conclusion, end quote. And as we've discussed already through these

episodes, we would later find out that it was apparently the DNA tests that were done on Hay's shoes, the shoes that they believe she was wearing on the day that she disappeared. And because Adnan's DNA was not on those shoes, his conviction was overturned. So here's what Judge Heard said, quote, As the trial judge in this matter, I would direct the court to the transcript of the trial. As I recall, no evidence or testimony that Mr. Syed handled the shoes of Hayman Lee. The absence of touch DNA on her shoes would seem to be an unusual basis to eliminate Mr. Syed as Ms. Lee's killer in the face of other overwhelming and riveting testimony of the eyewitness Jay Wilds, who testified that he assisted Mr. Syed in the burial of her body. A reading of the trial

transcript will show that the jury verdict was supported by substantial direct and circumstantial evidence. However, transcripts do not always reflect the tone, manner, and delivery of witness testimony. I heard the evidence and all testimony. The verdict and the swift manner of the verdict being reached made it clear to the court that the jury weighed the credibility of the witnesses who testified and were subject to rigorous cross-examination. The jury appeared to have considered all of the evidence, the witness's testimony, followed the law and instructions given by the court, applied the law to the facts, and reached their verdict, end quote. Judge Hurd also says that

Jay's testimony was backed up by physical and documented evidence, and she scoffed at the idea that Christina Gutierrez had not defended Adnan to the best of her abilities, saying that at the time of that trial, Gutierrez's legal talent and skill were outstanding. She was at the top of her game and she took full advantage of the fact that she already knew what the state witnesses were going to say since she'd had the unique opportunity of being able to watch almost all of the prosecution's portion of that first trial. And, you know, during that first trial, the one that ended in the mistrial before the defense even had a chance to present their side of the story. So basically she's saying the defense was at an advantage going into the second trial because they'd already kind of had a dress rehearsal of what the prosecution was going to say. And the prosecution didn't have that same advantage.

So Christina, yeah, she really used that going into the second trial. Oh, so this is where you're going? Okay. All right. We'll be ready for that one on the next one. You know? Yeah, absolutely. That would be a huge advantage.

And I will say to Judge Hurd's point, once again, to know that the jury only took two hours to decide on a guilty verdict in a case where it's really important and you would feel that you'd have some reticence when you're dealing with a younger kid like this and you'd want to make sure you got it right. It looks like there were very few arguments raised in the jury room. And we've all kind of seen this on TV, you know, dramatized where the jury goes out and they have

to all kind of agree before they go back and they can't agree. So they're in there for like 12, 20 hours and there's like 12, 20 hours and there's like one or two holdouts and all the other jurors are like harassing these people and like, come on, just change your vote so we can go home. This did not happen here. Two hours. You know, they went in, they were pretty much like, let's take a, this is how I think juries happen, but they go in and they're like, let's take an early poll. Like initially before we even discussed this, how was everyone feeling? And they probably went around and, you know, got an idea of how people were feeling, whether they're going to say guilty or innocent or not guilty. I mean, not innocent. And then from there, they just like ironed out

the details and came back two hours. That's pretty, it's pretty substantial. Yeah, that is pretty overwhelming that they would come back that fast with a trial that has so much weight on it where, like you had said earlier, a 17-year-old kid could go away for the rest of his life. But I do like what the judge had to say there about the actual testimony itself. Because when you're reading it on paper, you're basically just going off the words. And sometimes words on paper just don't sound right, or they might sound more impactful than they really are. And there's something to be said for being present and hearing

the conviction in someone's voice when they're saying something, how sure they are of what they're telling you, or they're telling the jury, or they're telling the lawyer asking the question. And I don't know what exactly she's referring to, but it sounds like from what you just read to me, there was something about Jay Wilds that she believed. I'm not saying she believed it in its entirety, but enough to her where she knew or she felt like there was truth in what he was saying. And that can be sometimes, again, when you're seeing a transcript, it's just words. But when you're interviewing someone or when you're questioning someone, when you're cross-examining someone, how certain are they? Are they looking away? Are they pausing? Are they taking time to think about it? When they say it, are they delivering it with their chest because they're remembering what they said, or does it

sound like they're making it up as they go? And are they uncertain even when they're saying it, the transcript doesn't relay that. So that's a really interesting take. And I absolutely agree with it. I can, I seen it firsthand with interviews that I've done where we have the video and ultimately we're going to use that in court, but there's also a transcription of it as well. I've seen it firsthand with interviews that I've done where we have the video and ultimately we're going to use that in court, but there's also a transcription of it as well. And when you see it on paper, an interview that I felt like we really had the person dead to rights based on how they responded, their mannerisms, right? You read it on paper and you're like, eh, it doesn't sound as great on paper.

You definitely got to see the video or listen to the audio. So good argument. I didn't think about it from that perspective, but yeah, I think being in that courtroom definitely gives you a different dimension of the case itself. It's not two dimensional or I should say one dimensional like a piece of paper is. Well, it's all about tone and context. It's like texting, you know, it's so hard to communicate. It's texting my fucking, yeah, excuse me, my worst thing ever. So hard to communicate during text because you don't know, like, how is this?

And it's stressful for somebody like me who reads into everything because I'm like, what do they mean by this? You really do, too. That's a great point. And it drives me crazy. You know, and I'm like, you know, if you say something, I'm like, is he saying this to me with an attitude or is he not? Like, I would need to be with you in person to know. And if I was with you in person, I would know because you're pretty open about, about your emotions. If you're, if you're pissed at me, I know, but in a text, I'm like,

is he pissed at me? How many times have I called you after a text and been like, let me just talk to you on the phone. So, yeah. Cause I'm like asking you like 20 questions. I'm trying to figure out, am I in trouble? Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, it's true. It's true. It sounds so simple. That's a great example. Text messaging.

The tone and intonation in which a person says something can have a dramatic impact on how you absorb that information. 100%. And I feel like also, I mean, she wrote this in October of 2022. So she must feel very strongly about this still to even come out, put a target on herself at this point over 20 years later to still say like, you guys weren't there at the trial. I was, I heard everything. I'm a judge. I didn't get here by just, you know, not knowing what I'm talking about. I judge people for a living.

And I judged this witness to be truthful, you know, enough truthful enough where I found it was plausible that Adnan was a part of this. And it could be, you know, the physical evidence she's talking about could be the cell phone pings and things like that. I think it was. Yeah. And she also saw like Adnan said he's at the mosque and he's got his phone with him, but he's not at the mosque. He's driving all over the place. So just there, I know he's not being truthful. Why is he not being truthful?

Things like that. I think it was a combination of what Jay was saying, you know, her weeding through the bullshit, hearing what Jay was saying, and then comparing it to the cell, like you said, the cell phone coordinates, the lack of memory, things like that, all of that in totality, that's the conclusion she came to. And I mean, she wasn't the one who found Adnan guilty. It was a jury trial. So yeah, she has some skin in the game because she is proceeding over the trial, but ultimately it's not a direct attack on her. If anything, it's an attack on the jury. And yet she's coming out saying, Hey, listen, I was there. I was obviously part of the

sentencing, but I agreed with the jury, even though I wasn't the one deciding whether he was guilty or not. Exactly. I was going to say that she has no skin in the game. Like she's not responsible for the verdict at all. So it's not as if she's feeling defensive of her decision and she feels like she's being accused of making the wrong decision. And this is the weight of the world on her shoulders. She's she didn't make that decision at all. And she's saying, like, I think they made the right decision. And I think it also is giving respect to the jury who sat there and took their time to hear this case. And they felt that he was guilty. And then for it to just be thrown out on some, like, random no DNA on shoes evidence. It's almost like insulting to the

jury who gave their time and really put thought into deliberating and figuring out whether they believed he was guilty or not. You know, that's what our justice system is supposed to do. And it's flawed and it doesn't always work. But she's saying it worked here. I believe it worked here. They heard what happened. They they followed instructions. They came to a verdict. And why are you telling them that they're wrong now? Yeah. Yeah. I. They came to a verdict. And why are you telling them that they're wrong now? Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying not to weigh in too much here because a lot of this is stealing my thunder for the closing here. So I'm like, damn it. She's saying my points. She's saying all my points. But that is one of my points. And I'll just repeat it at

the end. But yeah, I felt like there's a point where the reasoning behind the vacating of the charges based solely on this, my understanding of it, and I'm not a DNA expert, but the lack of DNA in a particular case doesn't automatically say that the person who you were looking for as far as DNA is concerned is innocent. It just means that their DNA was not there. What that reason is, I'll leave that to the experts who deal in DNA trace evidence. But yeah, I would think the absence of DNA doesn't automatically rule out a person. It's interesting. There were some other things that she had mentioned as part of her reasoning behind vacating these charges. And I won't say them now because I'm not going to have anything to say at the end. That's what I'm saying,

man. There were other reasons, right? And there were reasons that both you and I can understand. Yet you made a big show of talking about this DNA. And it makes me feel like you think the public is stupid because they just can't understand the fact that like this kid should have never gone to trial to begin with because there wasn't enough. You can't just say that and the general public that you think is stupid. They need to hear the words DNA because they watch too much law and order. And that's the only way that they're going to actually, you know, go for this vacating of the sentence. But that's really like disrespectful to most people who once they hear what's happening, like Judge Hurd, like Derek, like myself, who are like, what even does this DNA have to do with anything to begin with? And now we think you're shady and we were suspicious of your motives because why did

you feel like you had to throw that red herring at us when you could just talk to us like intelligent people and say, listen, we don't have faith in this investigation any longer. We don't have faith in the case that the state built any longer. And we don't think that there was enough for this kid to go to trial to begin with. And now we want to clean up our mess. Why can't you just say that? We would respect that. But you got to throw in weird random DNA tests on shoes that we don't even know had anything to do with this. It's just ridiculous. I'm not saying anything else.

I mean, yeah, there's other things. I'll say it at the end. But I will say one quick example. A lot of you are familiar with this case. A lot of you don't know this, but I covered Rebecca Zahal on Breaking Homicide. And by far, it was the most controversial take. Or I should say, I didn't even think the take was controversial, but it's the most controversial case I've ever covered publicly.

You got heat for that too, right? Yeah. I mean, heat in the sense that people didn't agree with me. No more heat than we're getting on this case, to be honest with you. It's something where you're giving a different opinion. You're going to have people come after you. But for those of you who are not familiar with the case, there's a brother involved, Adam Shackney, who many people believe that he killed Rebecca Zahal. And one of the things that I really hung my hat on was the fact that in the crime scene where this act took place, there's not a single piece of DNA linked to Adam Shackney. No DNA, no trace evidence from Adam Shackney on any of the evidence in that room. And I'm like, well, that kind of makes him either a ninja or he wasn't the one who did it.

And many people, some experts as well, came out and said, oh no, he still could have cleaned the room. So even though there's an absence of DNA in that case where you don't have nothing from an evidentiary standpoint as far as DNA is concerned or trace evidence, even not a single hair from the guy in that room. A lot of people still believe it's him. And in fact, it went to a civil trial and he's on the hook for millions of dollars now to Rebecca Zaha's family. Obviously, there's a lower threshold in a civil case. But I'm just pointing it out that there are many cases where the masses believe that someone is guilty of murder and yet there's no DNA present. And again, it's back to what you said. It's no DNA present on shoes that we don't even know whether they're involved in the case or not. So it's odd to me

that that would be a factor, like you said, but there are some other things, but I do think it throws people off by making this DNA evidence, this new DNA result, the main kind of the icon of your argument. Yeah, it was performative, basically. It was it's disrespectful to our intelligence, I think. But and I also would like to point out, as a reminder, Adnan's fingerprints were found in Hay's car. Car, yeah, of course.

Yeah, that's supposedly the place where where this this murder took place. This is where she was strangled in her vehicle. And it not fingerprints are in there. Now you could say like, well, you know, he had been in there before. And that's fine. You can completely say that. And I still don't think it's enough to to, you know, say he's guilty. But Jay's fingerprints were not in that car at all. You are really stealing all my stuff. Sorry, but you can't say he did it alone is what I'm saying. You can't say he did it alone because there's not one of his fingerprints found in that car. Right. So that's what I'm OK. I'm going to. I think that. But I think that's important.

Right. I mean, I'm glad you're saying it. I'm joking. I'm glad you're saying it. You know, it really sucks. It's just because of how long it took to find hay it would have been so much more compelling to be at that crime scene sooner because the evidence obtained at leakin park would have been extremely instrumental in this case because those are that's a location where if by chance they had found jay's dna or trace evidence or adnan's dna trace evidence more specifically

adnan because he's saying he was never there. They go up there, they find a rock like Crystal Beslanowicz, where you find something, a stick, a rock, something that has Adnan's DNA or some type of trace evidence on there. He's done. That's it. Game over. He's lying. But when you have it in the car, like you said, it's not as impactful because he has a justification for being there. But with weather and how long it took to get up to leakin park to find her we just talked about it with prebble penny you have bacteria weather conditions water rain snow whatever it might be that gets in there and it can affect the integrity of any type of evidence that might be left behind it makes it a lot harder But the real treasure was at that crime scene on Lincoln

Park. That's where the real story was. And unfortunately, it took him a long time to find Hay. And that probably washed away a lot of their evidence. Yeah. And the thing is with the car fingerprints, like even if Jay's fingerprints were in her car, he could have easily explained that away because he's admitting that he was there and he was part of it. And he could have been like, oh, yeah, my fingerprints are in the car. Yeah, Adnan actually had me grab the door and hold it for him one time. He could explain that away, but his fingerprints were not in the car. He claimed, he said, he told Adnan, I'm not touching this car.

I'm not getting in this car. You drive it. And it looks like that was the case because his fingerprints were not found in the car. It looks like he was never in her car if they, you know, fingerprinted correctly. Yeah. And apparently they did because they found other fingerprints. All right. Let's take a quick break.

We'll be right back. So I also wanted to talk about an interesting article I found on this website called the Marshall Project. And basically they say they're like unbiased true crime reporting. I don't know. But what I'm saying is not going to matter whether they're unbiased or not, because apparently they took like a poll of a panel of defense and prosecuting attorneys who had listened to the serial podcast and then done their own research into the case. And then these attorneys gave their opinions on whether Adnan was guilty or innocent. And like the general public, they are completely, completely split. But I did want to tell you what some of

them said because they all make good points, whether they're arguing for his innocence or for his guilt. So Sarah Lustbader, she's a public defender from the Bronx, she said Adnan was not guilty. And her reason given was because she didn't think he was a psychopath. She said, quote, unless there's a side of him that no one has told Koenig about, she's talking about Sarah Koenig from the podcast, the idea that he would become a psychopath for long enough to plot to strangle someone he cared about, carry out that plan and deny it, but never show other signs of psychopathy before and never after is exceedingly unlikely. Furthermore, Adnan is a smart guy, and this here is not a smart crime. None of that is

dispositive, but to me it makes guilt unlikely." I mean, first of all, Adnan is a smart guy, but he was a smart 17-year-old guy, so how smart is that? It's not as if he's like this. In one breath, she's like, he's not a psychopath. And in the next breath, she's like, I'm surprised that if he was this smart as a 17-year-old, he couldn't pull off a better crime. Make up your mind about what he is. But I don't believe Adnan is a psychopath. I agree with her. But you could argue that he did show some signs of being a little bit, you know, dishonest and manipulative. He was known to lie to people, mostly his parents. He'd also been caught stealing from his mosque. We know he was drinking and

smoking weed. So no, it's not like he was in and out of jail, but he was 17 years old. So he didn't really have a lot of time to be in and out of jail and show like these psychopathic tendencies that she's referring to. But the next attorney, Marcus Kipirios, who was a former prosecutor, he said he thought Adnan was guilty. And then his reason was that you don't have to be a psychopath to commit murder. He said, quote, the more I listen to Adnan, the less I like him. This is absolutely someone who could have committed this crime. It's very telling that the jury only took two hours. That means a lot. 15 years later, we don't know how the evidence was presented. We can't feel the witnesses out. But only taking two hours? I mean, here's what else I know. There's been no motive presented for anyone else but Adnan. You always look at motive. I wanted Adnan to be asked. If not you, who? Meanwhile, look at the way she was killed. She

was strangled. Very personal. There was a relationship there. That's why I don't buy the whole maybe a serial killer did it angle. What people have to understand is that there are a lot of people who kill who are between normal and psychopath. A person can be capable of strangling someone in a moment of anger or whatever without being all the way at the level of a psychopath. People try to paint Adnan as this virtuous guy, but he could have done one bad thing. And I'll say, if he's so virtuous, why is there such a lack of emotion on his part? In discussing the murder of someone you loved for which you've been unjustly imprisoned for decades, you'd get emotional, end quote. It sort of goes on like this for the majority of the article. Now, I will say the prosecutors seem to think that he did it, and the defense attorney seemed to think

he didn't, until you get to Joseph Seffer, Brooklyn Defender Services. And he says he's not guilty, but he also says, quote, My gut is that Adnan probably did it, albeit with a hell of a lot more involvement on Jay's part than Jay had admitted to. That being said, no fucking way would I say Adnan is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. No way. Jay led the cops to Hay's car. That's an objective fact. Therefore, he was part of whatever it was that caused her death. We also know this.

Of the 14 pings on the cell phone records, Jay got 10 of them wrong. He lied about everything before 6 p.m. that day. But he was not lying about where the cell phone was after 6 p.m. Those were the four that he got right. So maybe we can believe his story as to what happened after 6. The only thing is that Adnan's phone was inside Leakin Park, but they didn't do any study of Hay's body, so they don't actually know when she was killed. So who cares if Adnan's phone was in Leakin Park on that day? For all we know, Hay was still alive for days

after, end quote. So that is, you know, something a good defense attorney will do that maybe Christina Gutierrez should have done this. He's basically saying, like, you don't know exactly when she was killed. You don't know when she was dead. You don't know when she was buried. You just have Jay's word to go on. So by that logic, if you don't know exactly when Hay died, you can't prove that it was on January 13th. So you can't prove that Adnan was in Leakin Park to bury her body. He could have just been in the park or just driving by it. Yeah, I think I agree with most of what he said. I think lividity changes that a little bit.

I also think the fact that Adnan had said he'd never been to Leakin Park, he didn't know about it. The fact that his phone was pinging in that area doesn't bode well for him. And it just coincidentally, we believe Hay was killed that time, not only because of lividity, because it doesn't sound like she was held captive somewhere. She was in the same clothes. Does it appear that she had been kept alive for days on end? They could usually tell that by stomach contents, things like that. People who are way smarter than me would be able to explain that better. But there are scientific ways of determining if she had still been alive for multiple days after her disappearance. It could be as far as

going to see what she had for lunch that day and to see if it had a chance to be digested by her stomach, by her intestine. So again, way smarter people than me that could debate that part of it. But I will say a lot of what he said, I think there's some truth to it. There's two different things going on here, what you know and what you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. And they are very important. I would actually argue it's not as important what you believe, it's more important what you can prove and prove it in a way that it rises above whatever reasonable doubt is being presented. And I think you and I have said this throughout these eight parts. There's a lot of reasonable doubt here. And, and, and so you could go either way with this and I don't think anyone could argue with you. So I take both points and I see,

I see elements of each argument that I agree with. Yeah. So the whole stomach contents thing is interesting. You say that because I have seen this brought up on Reddit threads, you know, people have asked, yeah, they've asked like, asked, were the contents of Hay's stomach ever looked at? She was with friends at lunch that day. They would know what she had for lunch, or you could see what was on the menu for lunch. You could see how digested it was, et cetera, et cetera. Was this ever done? And that would give a more appropriate time of death. It would let you know at least whether she had died that day or another day. And I will say, I don't know if it was ever done. I can't see it

in the autopsy. No, I mean, it would be usually with cases where there's possible foul play, that is something they'll go do a more extensive autopsy and they would do things like that, see what the stomach contents are, et cetera. So, but you have the autopsy report in front of you and you're not seeing that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to go out on a limb and say it was done. I don't see why it wouldn't have been done. You have a young girl who was murdered. You'd want to try to determine an exact time of death or at least the day of her death. So that's interesting. I'd be willing to bet, maybe I'm wrong, that the stomach contents were examined if I had to put money on it. Because the autopsy report itself did come up with a time of death for her, didn't they?

Yeah, but I don't know if they based that on stomach contents. Well, they probably based it off of lividity, stomach, probably a combination of things where they said that she had died around that date I can't see it anywhere I mean I'm looking at the autopsy report right now all right so it might be a little bit of a splice here if you're listening or watching we just both pulled out the autopsy report and from what we can see and by all means if there's something we're missing maybe an addendum or something it doesn't appear that the stomach contents were examined. The only thing I can see that's even close to that is her bladder. It was empty. As Stephanie pointed out, sometimes that can be caused due to strangulation at the

time of the death. So that doesn't really give you any indication. But from what we're seeing from the autopsy report, doesn't have any description on what contents were found in her stomach at the time of her death. Yeah. They talk a few times about her being, you know, autopsy report doesn't have any description on what contents were found in her stomach at the time of her death. Yeah. They talk a few times about her being, you know, not having alcohol in her system, but that you can get that from a blood test. You wouldn't get that from looking at her stomach contents. So I think it's strange. I think it's strange that it wasn't done or if it was, it wasn't talked about. I do think that's strange. There might be a justification for, I always get hesitant to talk about these certain things because there's probably a pathologist watching

this right now like, no, you idiots, you wouldn't do it because of this reason. Well, we're not experts in that. So I know with Michelle Norris, I mean, we examined her stomach contents and that was in 1988 when they did her autopsy or a month after that she was found Memorial Day weekend in the 1980s. And we found the candy that she had bought from the store only hours earlier, which is how we were able to determine that she was deceased shortly after she disappeared. So I would think it'd be something that'd be done. I'm sure we'll get some comments on it. I'm sure people have looked into it. And I agree with you though, on the surface, like why wouldn't you check her stomach contents to see if there's food in her stomach that wouldn't have been there on the day she disappeared? So it would be very easy to know if I think it was Inez Butler was the teacher, if Inez Butler was referring to that same day, January 13th, if you knew what was in his stomach.

And, you know, once again, it would also put to rest all of these people who are saying and there's a lot of people who are saying, oh, no, she was held someplace else. And I agree with you. There's no evidence that she was held someplace else and she was wearing the same clothes. But then again, if you were held captive for like several days, I don't see your captor who's planning to kill you, you know, bringing you all different, like fashionable choices to choose from. You'd probably just remain in those same clothes. Right. But ideal, not ideal, not out of the question. But yeah, I agree with you. There's definitely other elements to it. You know, I think common sense always says, oh, well, she must have died shortly after she stopped responding or went off the map. That is common sense, but that's not always the case. I mean, I agree. If she was held captive, what was the motive for that? She wasn't sexually

assaulted. You would normally think that was the motive for holding a young girl captive. I don't understand why else. Like, do you want to, you know, a partner in like board games for like a night of board games? why else would you kidnap her and keep her alive and then kill her? It doesn't make sense. There's no motive to do that. So just logically, I would say that you and I both agree this probably isn't the case that she was probably murdered within just a couple of hours of her going missing, right? We agree. I think it brings this conversation full circle by going back to what the first person said in that whole poll that they took, that whole panel, which is that we weren't in the courtroom. It was 14 years prior to their assessment of it.

And being in that courtroom, hearing what Jay had to say and the way he said it, as far as his involvement and what he witnessed, may sway you to believe him. And at least at some points, he's absolutely telling the truth where he starts describing how they buried her body, what they did, what he was told by Adnan, Adnan telling him he wanted to kill her beforehand. There might be certain elements of it where he starts to get descriptive about his participation in those moments. Hey, listen, I was there. We covered her body. We used my shovels, all these different details where the jury might say, yeah, we don't believe everything he's saying. We strongly believe that he's softening his involvement before the incident. But after like that attorney said, after 6 p.m., it seems to start lining up because at that point, Jay is admitting because he has no other choice that there were things he was a part of and you can't really manipulate that part of what he was really concerned about is the premeditation, how much culpability he can have, how responsible was he for Adnan deciding to carry this out. And that's really where he was trying to distance himself. So I think being in that courtroom 15 years ago may sway some of us who are listening,

may convince you and I more as well, where we might be in that courtroom going, yeah, that sounds pretty spot on. And that's also part of the reason why the jury believed that she was killed on that day. Well, first of all, I mean, he didn't want to talk about what had happened before 6 p.m. in an honest way, right? Because that's when the murder happened. He doesn't want to be tied to the murder. He doesn't mind being tied to the burial, which happened after 6 p.m. because he's already admitted to that. when the murder happened. He doesn't want to be tied to the murder. He doesn't mind being tied to the burial, which happened after 6 p.m., because he's already admitted to that. But anything that happened before 6 p.m.,

if it's sketchy, if it doesn't add up, it's because Jay's trying to minimize his... Yeah, he's trying to minimize his part in the murder. And on that note, I will say, I think we can all agree, everyone listening, I would hope that this is the one thing we can agree on. Jay was involved. Not only did he know where her body was, not only did he know where her car was,

but he knew what she was wearing. He described what she was wearing. Okay, so we know he was involved. And if you believe that Jay was involved, which once again, I think we all can agree to that or else how does he know this stuff, right? If you agree that he was, then we can also agree that there's no way Hay was kept alive for several days because where would Jay have kept her? Who's keeping her alive? Why would he do that? And he described how the burial went down. And I do believe he's telling the truth about the burial and that he was present for it. So I think that this defense attorney is just using that as how he would proceed in court, as how he would raise reasonable doubt. But I think that it would still be shot down by any good prosecuting attorney.

I mean, the fact that Jay was able to describe Heyman Lee's steering column in one of the handles where you would change the wipers or whatever being broken off during the struggle and sure enough when law enforcement locates the car that piece of the column is broken off on the floor that is obviously not something that had been rolling around in her in her her the driver's seat of her floor for days on end and it just had been there that clearly happened during the assault right during her murder and there's only one or two people that are going to know that information he knew it and like you said not only did he know that detailed information he knew where the car was in the first place he

knew where hayes body was he knew parts of how she was buried being near a large log things like that things you wouldn't know or you couldn't be fed by law enforcement. We can question the cell phone. Not even the cell phone pings, but more so the timeline that he laid out and what had happened, what didn't happen, what things were said, what things weren't said. But there are indisputable facts that he brought up before the police even had knowledge of them. So yes, I am 100% on board with you, even if there are people who are not. You can argue that Jay is a pathological liar in some ways, especially when it comes to kind of minimizing his involvement. But there are elements of this case that he would not have known at the time when he did, unless he was directly involved or had spoken to someone who was.

Not even spoken to somebody who was. These are things he physically saw. Well, talk about like the steering column and stuff. If he is not the person who killed Heyman Lee, then he was told by the person who did kill her what happened in that car. Well, he said Adnan told him that during the struggle. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. So he doesn't have to be there, but if he wasn't in the car, then he talked to the person who was. So I think it's important. And going back and looking at some of the things that people have put online from other podcasts and things, a lot of that, I feel like even in there, some ways they do acknowledge that there are certain things that he says that the jury's still out on it as far as they're concerned.

They don't know how he knew this. And usually they'll go back to, well, he probably did it all by himself. That's usually where they go with it. And when you say, hey, listen, there are things that he knew that the police did not feed him. How did he know that? Well, maybe he did it all by himself. That's always- But his fingerprints aren't in her car anywhere. Exactly. Yeah. It's a back and forth, man. It's a tough one. You can't have one without the other, but I will say, and I said it earlier, the lack of fingerprints in the car doesn't automatically rule that scenario out either it'd be very difficult to do it'd be very difficult to erase his fingerprints and not all

the other people's fingerprints well he could have been wearing gloves could have been wearing gloves but then you'd still expect you know some touch dna maybe some have his hair or something like that like you'd still expect to something, right? I mean, and you would, I would think so. Yeah. But I,

I think at this point, if people can't acknowledge that he is somehow connected to this more than just a person who's a really good guesser, then we, we can't, we probably are not going to come to a common ground. Yeah. I can't help you,

man. See, I was being nice. That's ridiculous. Like there's no way that he wasn't there like i'm just saying he says he was there so it's not even like me saying something that could get me sued like he says he was there and i'm agreeing with this day there's no way he wasn't there okay when was intercept 2014 2014 he knew way too freaking much man and just he he

could describe what she was wearing he knew that that she wasn't wearing shoes, things like that. Yeah, does he lie about some things? Yeah, but we know why. We know why he's lying about some things. He's trying to cover up his actual part in the murder. But there's no way he did it alone. And if you ask me, there's no way Adnan could have done it alone either because you've got two vehicles here. Two vehicles.

You can't just be walking around, catching the. You have to have like a getaway driver. You've got to have like a partner in crime. And so Jay did it with someone else or Jay did it with Anon, but Jay did not do it by himself and Anon did not do it by himself, period, point blank. Yeah, no, we'll go over all of it. I have all the theories that kind of been hit on both on our series and then also things I've seen online. Some of them will hit quickly. Some of them will go more in depth on. But I think we're going to kind of go over those different theories and evaluate how plausible they really are, knowing everything we know now. Okay. Well, I do want to bring you back to Adnan's cell phone records. Because, you know, remember last episode we discussed how allegedly incoming calls were not reliable or as reliable as outgoing calls.

So the incoming calls showing that Adnan's cell phone was in Leakin Park during that like 7 o'clock hour when Adnan and Jay were allegedly burying Hay's body. Those pings could not be trusted, but the outgoing calls were reliable, which is how we know that Adnan was not hanging out at his mosque for hours on the night of January 13th, 1999. And one of those outgoing calls at 8.04 p.m. did ping off the tower by the disposal site of Heyman Lee's car. So it's worth noting also that the AT&T cover sheet, remember that cover sheet, that's the cover sheet that gives the disclaimer. And it says, you know, there's possible issues with the location in regards to incoming calls. No one really knows where that cover sheet came from or like who wrote it, who made that claim.

Sarah Koenig of the Serial podcast, she actually ran into the same issue. She's trying to figure out like who said this and why, where did this cover sheet come from? So she did her own digging on this because she wanted to know where the claim originated from. On the Serial website, she said, quote, last year when we were reporting the Adnan Syed case, we here at Serial website, she said, quote, Last year, when we were reporting the Adnan Syed case, we here at Serial actually spent a good chunk of time investigating this very same disclaimer on the fax cover page from AT&T. Dana emailed and called AT&T repeatedly, but they never answered the question about the disclaimer. Dana also wrote to Werenwouts. So that's Abe Warenwouts. He's the cell phone expert from Adnan's trial who testified about these pings. So Dana also wrote to this guy asking for help understanding

the cell records, but he never responded. Finally, Dana ran the disclaimer past a couple of cell phone experts, the same guys who had reviewed at our request all the cell phone testimony from Adnan's trial, and they said, as far as the science goes, it shouldn't matter, incoming or outgoing, it shouldn't change which tower your phone uses. Maybe it was an idiosyncrasy to do with AT&T's record keeping, the experts said, but again, for location data, it shouldn't make a difference whether the call was going out or coming in, end quote. So like I said, in that passage, she refers to someone named Warren Witts. That's Abraham Warren Witts, the expert witness on cell phone technology who testified during Adnan's trial.

He was a radio frequency engineer for AT&T. testified during the trial and said, hey, these calls are showing that at the time Jay Wild says they're burying Hayes' body in Leakin Park, Adnan's cell phone is in Leakin Park. And later, he basically retracted it and he said if he'd known about that cover sheet disclaimer, his testimony would have been different, but he didn't know about it. So another expert witness on cell phone technology, Chad Fitzgerald, who was an FBI special agent, he testified at the post-conviction hearing, and he's actually accused Adnan's lawyers of presenting him with cell phone records that they had manipulated in order to win their bid for a retrial. Fitzgerald said that one document he was shown

during the hearing did not include dates or times that certain calls originated, omissions that he says are crucial to understanding their meaning. He told defense attorney Justin Brown, quote, it's offensive that you handed me manipulated evidence and tried to undermine my expertise. I figured out what you were doing. I think you got caught in your game, end quote. So there's something else about these records. Apparently, Justin Brown, who's Adnan's new lawyer at this point for like his appeal process and stuff, because they got rid of Christina Gutierrez, he like claimed, he was like, oh, I didn't mean to present you with this, you know, this doctored like cell phone records that don't have dates or times. This was all I had. This was what I had, which, I mean, this is 2016, I believe, when this is happening. It's a good 15 or more years after the original trial where these actual cell phone records were used, undoctored. So to

believe that he didn't have access to the actual cell phone records is a stretch. It's a leap of faith to take. I don't necessarily believe that. Allegedly, that's just my opinion. But he did try to kind of like give this guy Fitzgerald certain cell phone records that would be harder to decipher, I guess. And Fitzgerald also testified that the original cell expert, Abraham Warrenwitz, was accurate when he placed Adnan's phone at Baltimore's Leakin Park. So, oh, quickly, also, before I move on, when I was reading this article about Fitzgerald and the PCR hearing from 2016, I found a few sentences about Asia McLean and her library alibi that I'd never seen before. And I read that, quote,

under defense questioning, a security guard at the library who testified anonymously said that he could not recall Syed there that day, end quote. Like I said, I had never actually read anything about a security guard before. That's been pretty well buried. So I think this is new information for me, and I just wanted to drop it in here before we move on and I forget. So we do need to take a break really quick, but I do want to get your opinion on this new cell phone information that we're hearing from Fitzgerald. So we'll be right back. Yeah, so we're back from break. I'm not a cell phone expert, but my thought, even when you were

saying originally about the cover sheet, my understanding of cell phone technology is that there are towers that are located throughout the state of Rhode Island. And depending on what tower I'm closest to, whether I'm making an incoming, an outgoing call or receiving a call, the signal goes from their phone to a tower, to tower, to tower, till it gets to the tower closest to me and then bounces off that tower to my phone or vice versa. If I'm making a call, whatever tower is in my immediate location to give the strongest signal and to get the quickest response, it'll bounce off that tower and continue on. It doesn't randomly select.

If I'm in Rhode Island, it's not going to randomly select a tower in Connecticut because the signal from my phone has to reach said tower. That's always been my understanding of it, but I wasn't going to, I didn't feel confident enough to question what AT&T is saying about their tower, their cell phone tower. So I still won't question it right now, but yeah, I would think that if the outgoing calls are usable, then the incoming would be as well. But that's my opinion on it. But I think either way, it's still bouncing off in the vicinity of it. I don't think that the cell phones are randomly selecting towers just based on how they feel at that moment. I think there is a science to it and you can reasonably predict what tower it should be bouncing off of. And if it's bouncing off said tower, then it's giving you a reasonable idea of the area that that phone was in when that call was made or received. So that's the thing, right? It's not necessarily saying that your phone's always going to just go off this one tower because there are concessions made, which we talked about a few episodes back, if it's a high traffic area,

you might get picked up by another tower just to give you better service. It's gonna be whatever gives you- Or if you're between two towers that are somewhat close to you, right? Like if it's like one's five miles away, one's six miles away, it could choose the one that's six miles away.

I get that. Possibly if there's a lot of traffic, but I will say in 1999, when very few people had a cell phone, probably wasn't this huge, like rushing traffic where you had to compete for cell phone towers. And also basically what Fitzgerald is saying here is like, it doesn't matter whether it's incoming or outgoing, it's going to ping off the same tower. So if there was problems with the incoming calls, there'd be problems with the outgoing calls. There can't just be problems with one and not the other. Like scientifically, that's not possible

and it doesn't make any sense. So we aren't really sure like where this cover sheet came from. You know, we don't really know. And AT&T, I guess, never responded to Sarah Koenig to kind of tell her where it came from. And I think that's a little bit shady if you ask me. I'd be very curious if anybody's been able to track down exactly where this fax cover sheet came from. And I think that's a little bit shady if you ask me. I'd be very curious if

anybody's been able to track down exactly where this fax cover sheet came from. Yeah, probably AT&T is like, why'd they say that? That's not true. But now we can't. It's in court documents now and they're building cases off of it. So my final thoughts on the cell phone locations, and we might talk about it again, but my opinion is that they're accurate, is that for the most part, within a relative location, a distance, they're pretty much spot on. There are times during these cell phone pings where neither side is questioning like, oh, yeah, Adnan's saying he was there, and that's where the phone location is. It's only when the location is incriminating that it becomes skeptical and it's something that's highly questioned but there are multiple locations throughout that day where everyone's like yeah that makes sense they said they were over here they were so how can some be

accurate but others be not not be accurate if they are that's about above me but i would like to assume that most of them are following the same type of science, the same type of technological process, where it's something that's repeatable and that you can replicate to show a consistency as how the system's supposed to work. That's just my opinion. I've never had an issue with cell phone towers where we've been tracking someone or use it at court where it was thrown out because they were able to prove that cell phone tower data is not reliable. Never happened to me. And I will say like online, so many people who are in law enforcement are saying the same thing. And I think that this was made to be such a big deal, this cover sheet and the incoming calls aren't reliable. And it was just said so much that people

just bought it and they never really looked deeper into it and really looked at the science behind it, which doesn't make sense according to the experts. So the people who know what they're talking about. So if you are going to trust the experts in some areas, you have to trust the experts in all areas. Once again, you can't cherry pick who you believe and why you believe them when it's their literal job to tell you how something works and why it works that way. Yeah, I mean, I got hired in 2004. So a few years after this had taken place, and I can tell you it wasn't immediately. I wasn't in detectives right when I got hired. But pretty shortly after that, we had a case involving an individual who was turning his phone on, turning it off.

We're trying to locate him. He was a wanted subject for a murder. And we were able to subpoena the records from AT&T and they were reporting GPS coordinates or cell phone coordinates to us where we were able to triangulate the area that he was in because he wasn't moving. He was hiding out in a particular apartment, but we kept getting constant pings off, you know, two or three towers. But when you compare the data to each other, it always pointed to a central location between those towers, not somewhere outside that scope. So we were able to locate a house in that area that he was associated with, and we found it. When Susan Simpson said, Adnan's at the mosque, but then his phone pinged across town. And she's like, this is an example of a cell phone ping that is absolutely not anywhere close to where he actually is. And it's like, why?

Why is that an example of that? Why did you just pick that? Oh, because it doesn't fit with the narrative that he was at home or at the mosque. I get it. That's my point. We never, and I remember that particular case, we were getting a ping every couple minutes. Every time he turned his phone on, we'd get it. That's my point. We never, and I mean, I remember that particular case, we were getting like a ping, like every couple of minutes, every time he turned his phone on, we'd get it for a couple of minutes. And we had hundreds of pings and that, you know, they were all, you know, within a reasonable

degree near each other, but there was never one where it's like, bing, oh shoot, that one's way outside in another state. It just didn't have, or even on the other side of the city, we never had like this outlying ping. So that's only my anecdotal experience. Doesn't mean 20 detectives couldn't come on to look at what we have, which is scientifically proven, which is physical, which doesn't have a bias one way or the other, and that is the cell phone data. So on that note, let's talk about something else that stood out in Adnan's cell phone records. After looking through five weeks of Adnan's cell phone calls and their corresponding towers, it appears that Adnan's phone only pinged off that

Leakin Park tower twice, on the night that Hay was abducted and allegedly murdered, January 13th, and then again on January 27th, over a week after she'd been missing. So I mean, I guess at this point, the question is like, what was Adnan doing in or around Leakin Park on January 27th? And let's talk about the theory. So on the evening of January 26th at around 10.30 p.m., Jay Wilds actually got arrested during a traffic stop. He was booked and he was put in jail. Apparently, he resisted arrest. And allegedly, Adnan found out that Jay had gotten arrested or that he was in police custody. And suddenly, we see Adnan's cell phone is pinging in Leakin Park. And according to, you know, what times these pings are happening, which is, you know, around the four o'clock hour,

it looks like after school, Adnan drove directly to Franklintown Road, where he could then drive by the park and the area where Hay's body had been left to see, you know, is there a police presence there? Is there caution tape? Are there people processing a crime scene? You would be able to see if the police had just found a dead body, because there would be signs of that even from the road. Obviously, from the road is where you would be able to see it, because that's where all those vehicles, all the police vehicles and the coroner van and things like that, that's where they would be parking on Franklintown Road. And if you remember, that's the road that Alonzo Sellers was driving on when he pulled over and went to go pee.

You know, this particular piece of information to me is not a good look. And there are people out there who say the fact that Adnan Syed never tried to reach out to Heyman Lee after her disappearance is incriminating and bad. And I see where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree. Oh, I do. Well, yeah. I think a lot of people are on your side. I think this is a lot more compelling because on one hand, we've been led to believe that Adnan Syed had no knowledge of Leakin Park. He didn't know it existed, according to multiple people that never been there, never knew about it.

We talked about it at length, that multiple people had been buried there. And apparently Adnan Syed was not familiar with Leakin Park at all. And yet he's driving by that location, at least on one occasion, because there are some people who say, oh, he could have been just driving down that road. Well, if he has eyes, then he probably noticed a park on the side of him called Leakin Park at one point.

Yeah, if you were driving down that road, you'd be aware of the existence of Leakin Park. Precisely. They make it sound like he's not even on that side of town, like that they go to a different park and he's not even over there. And what would be the reason that Adnan would be driving by the park on this day, the day after Jay gets arrested? Right. That's the other issue. That's in that there's two there's two prongs to that. One, at this point, we know Adnan has the phone. So if we're to believe Jay's the the guy that committed this crime it's a huge coincidence

then that adnan's driving by that location and pretty close to where hay was buried but more importantly the timing of it right we talk about these coincidences and bad luck for adnan i'm being sarcastic obviously when i say that i hope most of you pick up on that it is very very compelling and very incriminating to have a possible co-conspirator be arrested. And within a few hours of possibly learning about said arrest, you're in the area where Heyman's body will eventually be found. I do believe that coincidence happened. I think this is too much for me to say, okay, yeah, maybe it's just, again, poor Adnan,

bad luck, buddy who's going to implicate him in a murder and basically point them to Lincoln Park as the burial site. He's going to happen to go by that burial site or in the proximity of it within hours of his alleged co-conspirator being arrested. I just, maybe I'm biased because I'm former law enforcement. Go there, put it in the comments. I'd like to think it's just kind of a little bit of common sense, but I know for sure there will be people that have a rebuttal for this and have a way of explaining it away.

I'm ready for it. Okay. So yeah, the theory is that Adnan finds out Jay's been arrested and Adnan doesn't know why Jay's been arrested. And he immediately thinks that either A, Jay's gone to the police of his own free will and he's going to turn on Adnan now, or B, Jay's been arrested and in order to save himself, he's going to give the police information about Adnan. So Adnan is concerned and he wants to drive by the park to make sure that there aren't police there recovering Hay's body. That's the theory. And the question that I saw a lot by people who didn't want to believe that this is what was happening, and I'm not saying this is what was happening, this is the theory supported by physical evidence, but I'm not saying this is what was happening.

But the people who don't want to believe that this was happening, they ask the same question. Well, how did Adnan know that Jay was arrested? Well, I mean, let's just use our brains here for a second. When Jay Wilds was arrested that night to the 26th, he was with Jen Pusateri. Now, Jen Pusateri is going to now go to Jay's girlfriend, Stephanie, and maybe Jay even asked Jen and said, Jen, let my girlfriend know what's going on because I only get one call and maybe I'm going to call a lawyer and maybe I'm going to call my parents or my grandma, but I can't let her know what's going on. So tell her for me. So Jen calls Stephanie and then Stephanie goes to school the next day. And I don't know if it was first or second period that she had with Adnan, but pretty early on in the day. And then she talks to her

friend Adnan and she's like, yeah, man, Jay was arrested last night. He's in the police station right now. This is crazy. He's in jail. And that's how Adnan knows. It's not hard to make that connection. So let's keep going further because it's funny. After pinging off of that Leakin Park tower, L689B, Adnan's phone pinged off the C sector of that tower that covered the location of Hay's car. So it looks like he went from the Leakin Park area, didn't see any cops there, and then drove over to where Hay's car was to see if her car was still there or if it had been taken into evidence. And he wants to see if Jay's turned on him by now. This is alleged. Allegedly what happened. All right. And the calls.

Alleged as far as his thought process, but these pings are not alleged. Exactly. They're a fact. Yeah. And the calls that he made that pinged off that tower were to Jay's friends, Patrick, one of the guys that Jay called on January 13th when he was driving around, and Christy. These are people that we've heard a million times Adnan didn't talk to, people who'd been called on January 13th and everyone who was pro-Adnan said, oh, well, these couldn't have been calls that Adnan was making because they were Jay's friends. And Adnan doesn't know them. And why would Adnan be calling them now? And, you know, they weren't even stored in his phone. So was Adnan calling Patrick and Christy so he could get like information on what was going down with Jay

because after he didn't see any police in Lincoln Park and he saw Hayes car was still there, maybe now he's calmed down a little bit and he's like, let me see if I can get, you know, some insight into what's happening because after he calls Patrick and after he calls Christy, he calls Jay's house. So for people who say, oh, this wasn't Adnan in the car, it was Jay. Let's talk about that. Like I said, this is just a theory. Adnan could have just innocently been driving around town, getting high before going home. And he just happened to drive by Leakin Park and the area where Hay's car was. And like Derek said, these horrible coincidences that keep making him look like he had something to do with it.

But I will say it is weird that in a call log over five weeks, over 1,000 calls, the only two times his cell phone pinged at that Leakin Park Tower was the day Hay went missing, January 13th, and then that January 27th day, the day after Jay was arrested for something unrelated. Never did his phone ping off that tower at all in that whole time, five weeks, a thousand calls, just twice. It wasn't a frequent, yeah, it wasn't a common occurrence. It wasn't someplace he drove often. He didn't drive past it on his way home. That's what we're trying to say. And so some people also say like, okay, maybe it's not Adnan making these calls and driving by these sites. Maybe it was Jay. Maybe he'd already gotten released from prison because he did get arrested on January 26th around like 10.30 p.m., I believe. So maybe by 4 p.m. the next day, he was already out. He was out. assume that once again, Jay was in the possession of Adnan's car and cell phone. And Adnan's never

mentioned this. He's never said like, oh yeah, I let Jay borrow my car all the time. I let him borrow my car every Wednesday or actually the week after Hay went missing, I let him borrow my car again. It's never been brought up. And you'd think that would be something that Adnan would remember. So then people are saying maybe Jay and Adnan were in the car together. I think this is possible. I think that Jay and Adnan could have been in the car together.

And it was Jay making these calls to Patrick and Christy. But then you'd have to ask, like, why did Jay call his own home? Or maybe he wanted to talk to his grandmother. Who knows? They could have been together at that point. And so my favorite theory that the pro and non people make, and I actually, I like this theory. I'm not going to

lie to you because it's interesting. And I think that there's some weight to it. So they say maybe Jay picks a non up from school and they're driving around together and Jay purposely makes these calls by Leakin Park and then by Hayes' car so that it looks like Adnan did it and so he can continue framing Adnan. And like I said, to be fair, because it's a great, you know, it's a great theory. I don't think that Jay was that smart and I don't think that either Jay or Adnan knew enough about cell phone technology to realize that that would even come into play. I don't think they realized that the cell phone and the records and where he was when these calls were happening and pinging.

This is 1999. Cell phones are brand new. People don't understand this stuff yet. I don't even know where the cell phone towers are in my area right now. That's what people don't even understand this stuff like today, you know, so there's no way that jay Well, you know i'm a tech guy I have no I couldn't tell you where my cell phone tower is that i'm sure I could look it up now with the internet And stuff, but I don't know right now if you ask me

There's no way jay knew enough about cell phone technology to know that he would be pinging off the right tower or that anybody would Even be looking at that stuff Um, so so can I weigh in on this quick? Of course. So this is something that I talked about. I did a lot of research going into my final thoughts tonight because I know I had to be well prepared. And this was something that I spent a lot of time on. And this is why at the beginning of it, I said it was so incriminating because of the facts you just laid out. I'm not going to repeat them. But just to just to overall kind of to to double down on what you just said. Hey, goes missing at non's phone.

We don't know who has it on the night of her disappearance is in the area of these two locations, you know, Lincoln Park and where Heyman Lee's car was eventually found. OK, no problem. There's a lot surrounding that that could be brought into question. Was Adnan even in the possession of the phone on those nights? I'm with you. Okay. However, as you just said, thousand times, not one other time, other than after the time that Jay's arrested. And we have no information that indicates anybody, but Adnan had that phone. Okay. I personally still, that's why I said, I think this is way more compelling as far as an argument to say Adnan was directly involved with this than the fact that he didn't

try reaching out to Hay after she disappeared, because this is something that can, will not change with time and different people respond to trauma different ways. He might've realized they can't get ahold of her. Why i going to try calling i would personally try you may personally try but everybody's different so i'll give them that but the cell phone data doesn't lie it is what it is and so for me this was something where i read it and i had to read it a couple times because i thought maybe i was reading it wrong so uh yeah i'm really glad we put this in here because i think it's something that regardless of what side you're on, we can dissect the day in question because a lot of it's coming from

Jay Wilds and none of us really believe everything he's saying. But whether Jay's in the car or not, there's no indication that, like you said, Adnan had given Jay his car and cell phone again on this particular day and brought him by these locations. So we have to assume at minimum Adnan's in the vehicle with the cell phone. And here he is going by the two locations where, which will both be crime scenes at some point. And this is before Jay ever talked to the police. Before Jay talked to the police, before his body is found, I want to make two points. Some people also said, like, well, why wouldn't, when Adnan found out Jay was arrested, why wouldn't Adnan just have first called Jay and been like, what's up?

Well, obviously, exactly. Why the hell would he do that? He's super paranoid right now that Jay's working with the police, so he's not going to call Jay, who could potentially be with the police and be like, yo, look way more guilty. Dude, what's up? What's up? What happened to the police? Did you tell him anything? Like what's going on? He's not going to do that. So first he checked it out. He cruised around. He didn't see anything unusual. Then he called Jay. I believe Adnan was in that car alone. I don't think Jay was with him on the 27th. I will say that. Now, will I say it's a possibility Jay was? Yes, it's a possibility. But in my opinion, Adnan was alone in that car.

And that's why you see the call to Jay's house after he's already checked out both of those sites, because he's now a little bit comforted that like there's not a huge police presence and there's not like helicopters and searchlights looking for him and and maybe it's not related and so then he calls jay and he's like hey i heard you got arrested last night everything okay you know and then jay's like yeah man traffic you know violation whatever and that's what happened stephanie not only that he would go by the location and see hay's car still there exactly so he knows he's comforted that Jay hasn't gone to the police. It's not even about police presence. He's driving by and there's her car.

Nobody found it yet. On we go. Exactly. Could be that simple. And about calling, hey, like I think that it's very suspicious that he didn't try to call her. I know a lot of people do. I might be in the minority on that one.

Because of how close they were, right? Remember how freaking close they were how everybody in a non-sight and i'm sorry i'm being like glib right now but it's just so freaking ludicrous it makes me so mad that they can just talk out of their asses for hours oh he loved her he would never hurt her they were best friends he gave her a picture frame and it said best friend he didn't care that she was like moved on he just wanted to be there for her and help her fix her car whenever she needed it, even though there was another man in her life. And he was just he loved her.

He's a good guy. OK, you can't say that. And then also excuse the fact that he did not try to reach out to her at all, because even if you know other people are reaching out, there's still a part of you as a human who cares about this person that's going to also try to reach out. Because maybe Hay left. Maybe she'll pick up from me. Yeah, maybe Hay left, right? And she did run away.

And maybe now she knows that you're concerned about her and you're trying to reach her. But if you didn't, she might think you don't care. If you think she's still alive out there somewhere, you want her to know that you care enough to give a shit to send her a page and be like, hey, it's me, you know, call me back. Like, I am here waiting for you. Like, we're all worried about you, me included. You just wouldn't be like, well, other people tried. So because you think she was still alive, you think she was still alive and you care about her so much and your best friends, best freaking friends, but you can't even text her. I mean, not text her, page her to let her know that,

you know, even if you can't communicate or send a message, just to let her know you're thinking about her and you miss her and you wish she would come home like every, all her other friends are doing. So I think all of this stuff combined looks super bad in my opinion. I get it. You're not, you're definitely not the only one. A lot of people, and that's, what's great about us. We, we are two different people and we have different opinions. And your opinion is probably more in line with a lot of people out there. But you said you would have paged her. You said you would have.

Yeah, probably. I probably would have. So how do you not think it doesn't look suspicious? Because even though I would have, I'm a different person than Adnan. And he might be someone who's more like, you know what? She's gone. There's nothing I can do at this point. I'm just going to try to help whatever other way I can. And I know there's certain people who might think I'm involved, so I'm just going to stay away from it. I'm not justifying it. I'm not, I'm not defending it. I'm just saying for me,

if you're to compare that to what we just talked about apples and oranges, I think, I think there are two different things. One's about the psyche. One's about the mind and your opinion on how you react to a traumatic situation, how you handle that. The other is indisputable. The other is something that 100 years from now will still be true and exactly the way you laid it out. Oh, Derek, nothing is indisputable in this case. The cell phone towers were wrong. He was at the mosque when they showed him driving by Lincoln Park on the 27th. I know you're joking right now. I know you're joking right now, but real quick, tell me this. And I know you're not saying this, but for those people who are going to say it's inaccurate. So out of the other thousand times where this happened,

the other thousand pings, they were never inaccurate again? No. Not one time? No, just that one time. Just the one time. And it happened to be the day after Jay was arrested. Now, if we had numerous pings, I'm being honest here. If out of those thousand pings, we had numerous pings that were hitting in those areas, for me, this information would be kind of a moot point. I'd be like, well, it's always pinging over there.

You could be driving by a thousand pings only two times. Five weeks, a thousand pings only two times. Five weeks, a thousand pings, two times. Okay. Needle in a haystack shit. I completely agree. It looks bad. It looks really, really bad. Yeah. And I saw that and I was like, Ooh, we didn't even discuss it. Actually. I don't think I brought it up to you, but I have it in my notes here. And it's like, yeah, you know, it's one of those things where that to me, either the cell phone tower data is inaccurate all the time or it's accurate all the time. You can't have it both ways. It can't be accurate on most days and not accurate on that one particular day. rationale. What is your rationale? I'm very interested to know, and I'm not even being sarcastic, like, because sometimes people come up with theories like that whole, you know, Jay was trying to set him up by calling as he drove by. Like, sometimes people come up with theories and I'm like, I don't think so, but damn, wouldn't that make like a good book or a good movie plot, right? Like that would make a good storyline in a movie. That's very creative.

So I am interested to hear like what, what you have to say for sure. I think the common practice on this one would be not necessarily to dispute what happened, but divert, bring up something else that's also compelling. Yeah. But, but what about this? Well, what about this shows he didn't do it? Yeah. What about what? Because I don't know how you look at this regardless of what side you're on and say, this is a good thing. This is something that, or even not, it's a good thing, but you know what? I don't think this actually tells us much, Derek or Stephanie. I don't think this is, I don't think this is notable information. No, no, dude, there will be people who say that. Oh, well, you're just

assuming Stephanie told Adnan that Jay was arrested. You're just assuming that he knew when he drove away. And if he didn't know, then it makes everything you're saying false. And he just happened to be driving by. Like, you can totally say that, but it doesn't hold water. It just does not hold water at all, in my opinion. And if it's not Stephanie or it's not someone, it could be he just heard it through whatever. It could have been anybody. It could have been just overhearing a conversation from someone else we don't know it's a million different ways he could have found out through the grapevine that jay had been arrested the previous night and it doesn't have to be this hey adnan did you hear just however it was heard he got wind of it and immediately went to oh

i gotta go see one what he was arrested for, but more importantly, what is he saying? And the best indicators to drive by these locations and see if there's any police presence or to see if Hay's car is still there, because if her car is no longer there and you haven't spoken to Jay yet, you might have some problems. And this gives further indication that neither Jay nor Adnan had any freaking idea how cell phone locations worked. Because if Adnan did, there's no way he would have driven by that day because it looks suspicious as hell as we're sitting here discussing. He didn't really know. I think if Adnan really understood how cell phone location stuff worked, he would never have

called Nisha that day on the 13th and made that mistake that really stands out like a sore thumb when it comes to his timeline, which is he was at school. I think a lot of things would not have happened. He probably would have left his cell phone at the mosque or at his house on that evening, January 13th, and then driven around and did what it doesn't seem like he understood that he was being tracked by this cell phone because it was 1999. It was his first cell phone. And a lot of people didn't understand that. Yeah, I agree. I definitely am not putting it in the camp of Jay knew he needed to pin him here. If he framed him, he already did the framing. This isn't going to make your case case any stronger i know looking at it now we're like oh this is the smoking gun but

he would have no way of having that foresight or knowing that no i mean and again this is before he went to the police this is before he even knew the police were going to check the cell phone records go to jen yeah he didn't go to the police that's another thing we need to keep coming back to he did not go to the police the police kind of like picked him up and connecting him with jen and then jay was like oh just tell them to come to me right but technically it's not like jay sought the police out for no after after continuing the framing yeah and and if you're thinking that jay is this criminal mastermind who would even think to do this like January 27th frame up job, then we'd have to question why he was so stupid in every other aspect where he told 25 different stories,

which makes many of us not believe half or a lot of what he has to say. This was a guy running a criminal enterprise out of his grandma's house. All right. He's badass. That's his words, not mine, by the way. It was a criminal enterprise, criminal organization. What was it? What was it? What was this phrase? You know, I was involved and I was running a criminal operation out of my grandma's house. So, you know, the cops were on. Okay, buddy. The helicopters, helicopters in the sky. Yeah. Yeah. He's this modern day Pablo Escobar, basically. Yeah. Pushing dime bags. So I do want to talk about the issue of lividity in terms of Hayman Lee's body because Derek tells me this is a big point of contention for the pro and non crowd.

Therefore, we do need to go over it. This is not my area of expertise at all. Neither is it mine. Well, I was just going to do my best with it and then hopefully that you can come in and help me out. But basically. We talked about it. We were trying to break it down today. We don't just talk on this, on this episode. We're talking every day and we spend time on this last week and today. And we feel like we have an understanding of it, a grasp. But I think I speak for both of us when

we say we're not physicians. And so we're, we're no better than you guys in this sense. I mean, I've had cases where we've had lividity, obviously. I've experienced it. I've worked around it, had to figure out times of death because of it. But by no means am I an expert. I let the pathologist decide that usually. But I mean, in this case, it does seem to be pretty straightforward. Not according to the forums. Okay. So the state, with the help of Jay Wilds, obviously, they put the burial of Hay's body happening around that 7 p.m. hour. That's also when those incoming calls pinged at the Leakin Park Tower. But according to some people, the lividity of Hay's body does not support a burial time of 7 p.m. They say that the earliest she could have been buried was 10.30 p.m. that night.

So Dr. Carell, who was the medical examiner who performed Hay's autopsy, she stated that Hay must have been face down when liver was fixed because she saw anterior or frontal lividity and Hay had been buried on her right side. This is what the autopsy says. It says frontal lividity and that hay was found buried on her right side. And obviously, this poses like a contrasting sort of opinion because anterior lividity, once again, means frontal lividity, which means, and can you explain lividity a little bit? It's just like where the blood pools, basically, when you die. Wherever you're laying, the blood pools, basically, when you die, wherever you're laying, the blood will pool in that area because it's no longer circulating. Am I correct?

Yeah. It's pulled down by gravity. Yeah. No longer circulating. So for an example, if I die while laying flat on my back, the blood will settle on my back and on the back of my legs. It pools up because gravity is pulling it down because like you said it's no longer being circulated and you'll get this bruising this heavy bruising on your entire back of your body you will have cases where there's compression on the skin so the areas where my calves or my lower back or upper shoulders are in contact with the ground and there'll be like a white spot there because the blood, you know, comes down to the floor where your back is, but then pulls over to like the areas that are not

being as compressed as much. And that's where the blood settles. So you will have compression areas where if the arms or legs are resting up against something, you may not have lividity in that specific location. And that's basically because the, what are they, like the capillaries or something? They're compressed, so they can't hold the blood. And that's why you'll see that they're not open enough to receive that blood. So that's why you'll see those pressure marks.

Had a case like this with a female victim where she was found face down and we found a diamond pattern on her lower abdomen. And I was like, damn, that diamond pattern, Devin Schmidt, it's on Breaking Homicide. That diamond pattern looks so familiar. I've seen it. I've seen it. We'll come to find out. I'm looking at the crime scene photos and you have this bruising in this area, but you have this diamond pattern that was from pressure that she was laying on something behind. Sure enough, I'm looking in the room, I'm looking in the room at the crime scene photos and I see a PlayStation remote control in the corner. Sure enough, it's a PlayStation remote. 100% after seeing it, that's what it was. So what I was able

to deduce from that was that there was no PlayStation controller under her body when she was found. So clearly that remote control was either removed by the offender or by the person who found her and tried to perform CPR. And it was kicked across the room onto the floor. But those are things that you can find in some cases due to lividity, due to that compression, where if there's an object under the body where the blood is trying to settle, you may be left with an impression. So the lividity is going to tell you such as like that, if the body was moved, if a person died and then the body was moved after they were dead, or it can also tell you or help you determine time of death too. Great point. I'm glad you brought that up. Something

that could be a misconception for some, when you die, when Leviticus settles, right, wherever the pooling, wherever the bruising occurs, if you turn that person over after that, the blood does not shift and then settle in that new location and the bruising dissipates on where it originally was and goes to the new location. Like Stephanie just said, that's how we can determine if a body was moved. If you're laying flat on your back and liver mortis, lividity sets in, and then after it's fully set in, you are flipped over for nefarious reasons or just because they're working on you or whatever, the blood, the pooling, the bruising will remain in

that original location. So if you come into a crime scene that's allegedly undisturbed and you have someone laying flat on their face, but all the lividities on their back, a hundred out of a hundred times, they've been moved before you got there. Okay. So that's a great foundation for what we're going to talk about because what we have here is an autopsy that says she's got anterior or frontal lividity,ity was frontal and she was found laying on her right side, then she must have been moved after the lividity fixed, which can take several hours. So what we have here is the blog of Susan Simpson. Remember, Susan Simpson is our buddy over there at the Undisclosed podcast. She said, quote, if the body were buried on its right side sometime during the 7 p.m. hour, this would preclude the anterior lividity described by Dr. Carell, which means that Jay's story is dramatically and provably false with respect to the events of January 13th, 1999. Although the 7 p.m. burial story would be disproven if looking solely at

the autopsy report, two critical questions remained about the report's validity. First, was Dr. Carell correct about the anterior lividity? The autopsy photographs were in black and white, which is far from ideal, but multiple forensic pathologists were able to conclude after reviewing the photographs and the autopsy report together that Dr. Carell was correct in finding anterior lividity. All found that the lividity was anterior and even on both sides, meaning that the body was laid out flat, not leaned to one side or the other at the time lividity fixed. Second, was Dr. Carell correct that the body had been buried on its right side? The autopsy concluded that it was, but because the state never permitted the defense to obtain copies of the crime scene photos, we could not independently confirm this. However, there's no reason to defense to obtain copies of the crime scene photos, we could not independently confirm this.

However, there's no reason to think that this part of the report was an error. End quote. It wasn't. It wasn't an error. She was an error. Because at that point, like she said, her pictures that she had of the crime scene were in black and white. That's because she was getting them from, you know, photocopies basically of the discovery. And no one had the actual pictures or pictures of

Hay's body until quite a while after this. And when those pictures did come out, it became much more clear what had actually happened. But Simpson goes on to say that they finally did get a hold of the crime scene photos for episode five of the Undisclosed podcast. And the pictures were looked at by an expert, Dr. Helvati, who confirmed that the body was positioned on its right side. And because these photos were in color, she was able to confirm the presence of lividity on the anterior surface of the torso. And then Susan Smith goes on to say, like, this proves that she was moved because she confirmed lividity on the anterior or frontal surface. And also she was laying on her right

side. So she clearly was moved. But I guess she missed that specific part where it says anterior surface of the torso, the top half. This is the big argument and debate in the Reddit forums and on Twitter. This is something that people go back and forth on. This is the part. Yes, this is the top half, the torso. No one ever said that there's evidence that Hay had this fixed lividity on the anterior portion of the bottom half of her body. So this is important and we're going to circle back in a minute. So Susan Simpson also admits something here in this blog post that is surprisingly unbiased, or she just, you know, had to eventually admit to it. She says, quote, in addition to the lividity findings, though, it's worth noting that these findings are also highly significant in terms of what they show about the crime scene.

In particular, the body was not at all concealed to the degree that I had expected. She goes on to say in this blog post, like, Yeah, I experienced from seeing these photos the same thing that Alonzo Sellers described experiencing when he walked by the body. You could see her shining black hair. You could see, like, the white of her shirt, things like that. It was easy to see. He would have had to have known exactly where he was going. And, you know, it turns out to't as densely, like, you know, foliaged as they had made it seem and Hayes' body wasn't completely hidden and he didn't,

you know, have to just find the body because he already knew where the body was because he had put it there. So moving on, during the HBO series, Dr. Jan Gorniak, the chief medical examiner of Fulton County, she pointed out these diamond pressure marks found on Hayes' shoulders. And these were pressure marks like Derek was describing earlier, something that stopped the blood from settling into that area. So lividity does cause discoloration in areas of the body where the blood has settled due to the gravity. The pressure marks are caused by basically an interruption of the blood settling, something externally putting pressure on portions of the body that does not allow the blood to settle there. So Hay had a series of three similar sized pressure marks, two on her right shoulder

and one on her left shoulder. Now, Dr. Gorniak claimed that Hay having fixed anterior lividity and these double diamond shaped pressure marks, it meant that Hay had to have been face down on top of whatever object or objects had caused these pressure marks for at least 8 to 12 hours after her death. And given that Hay was not killed until 2.30 p.m. or later, this means she could not have been buried until at least 10.30 p.m. And now this means that there's two reasons why Hay could not have been buried at the time Jay claimed initially, which was that 7 p.m. And now this means that there's two reasons why Hay could not have been buried at the time Jay claimed initially, which was that 7 p.m. hour. And remember, the calls were identified

as Leakin Park pings. They came in at 7.09 and 7.16, not at 10.30 or after. Now, I will mention really quick before I debunk all of this. In Jay's version of events that he gave to the Intercept, he has Adnan coming to his house with Hay's body and then returning later after midnight. And that's when they go and get the shovels and they go and bury her body. But there's no pings at Lincoln Park at that area. So if Jay's telling the truth about this later burial time, then he probably, maybe they left the phone at home. I think more than likely a bunch of people who were pro-Adnan and wanted to prove that the burial didn't happen at that 7 o'clock hour latched on to that 2014 Intercept article and what he said and tried to use it to prove that Hay had been in a different place. And she wasn't at Leakin Park until like after midnight. So you could say like maybe there was something in Hay's trunk that could have left those marks because she was in the trunk for a few hours.

If she was buried at that 7 o'clock hour, she was only in the trunk for about five hours. Levitity would not have probably set in to a fixed level by then. But if she was in the trunk until like almost midnight lividity would have set in by then and and is there something in her trunk that made those those marks personally i don't think that's what happened at all because there's only lividity on the front portion of her torso it looks like what happened is once we we see the pictures and there are people who have seen the pictures and i do have a representation because i didn't want to see the actual picture. So somebody drew a basically a drawing of, hey, how she was positioned in the crime scene photo for people who don't want to look at the actual photo. There's also a model photo out there, like an actual model. You can see that someone recreated of the of the photos. Yes, exactly. So what you have, how she was actually laying is she was twisted. So the

front portion of her torso was facing down and the rest of her body was laying on the right side. So we're going to put this up for everybody who's watching on YouTube. Go look at it. If you haven't, it's hard to explain. Go look at it. If you're really invested in the case, go look, do some quick searching. If you're not on YouTube or just come over here and look at it or search it on Google, you have to see it to understand it makes a lot more sense. To achieve what Susan Simpson was saying that Hay would have had to have been laying completely flat face down for this anterior lividity to have happened. That's absolutely false because Hay only had that fixed anterior lividity on her torso, not on the bottom part

of her body. I don't know if Susan missed that part or maybe she didn't have the right pictures by that point. I don't know. But it's absolutely not true that Hay would have been laying face down for 8 to 12 hours in order to get that lividity. Now, what about those diamond pressure marks? I believe it was the blog that Susan Simpson wrote, and she said something like, there was nothing at the scene of the burial that could have made those marks on Hay. And I call bullshit. How would you know that? How would you know that? We know from the way it was described that Hay was left in that shallow grave, that there were rocks, heavy rocks placed on top of her, a few heavier rocks placed on top of her. And if her torso was facing down towards the ground like we see it is, is it crazy to think

that there's rocks on the ground underneath her that could have been pressing into her chest and causing that pressure marks where the blood wasn't settling when when it was uh settling in her body i mean it's so sad to think about and she was facing down you know her hips were twisted so this part of her her chest her shoulders would be pressed into the ground and if there was rocks there which there are because it's the ground and you dug into the ground, tree roots, anything like that, even harder pieces of earth that, yeah, that's going to make that same, those same marks. It doesn't have to be anything specific and it doesn't have to, you know, be something that she sustained in a trunk or anything like that. You said that the marks on Devin Schmidt were like diamond shaped, right? If you know what a PlayStation remote looks like, the four circular buttons that are in the shape of a diamond.

Yeah, it was those four circular buttons in the shape of a diamond. And then you had the D-pad, the other diamond next to it. And I was like, that looks so familiar. Sure enough, looking in the photos, there's the thing. So, yeah, I agree with you. I think it's pretty much, it makes sense. And to kind of double back to the whole lividity, we have to remember that Hay was not found until February 9th. So a little less than a month after whatever happened to her for her to believe that she died on January 13th. So my understanding of

it is, like you said, lividity sets in usually between eight and 12 hours. That can be changed based on conditions, elements, things like that, but that's a general rule. And it does appear based on the way her body was found, that the lividity supports the fact that she was killed earlier in the day. And within that eight, you know, that eight hour window, she had been moved from wherever she was, whether it was in the trunk of a car, whatever it was, she was moved to Lincoln park before that eight hour mark before that time set in. And that's when Levitity took place. As far as it determining time of death, my understanding is a month later,

Levitity wouldn't really be able to do that. You would have to rely on the conditions following the time that she was killed to when she was found. Decomposition would play a big factor in that. Like we had said, stomach contents, all these other things, those outside elements, fly larvae, like those types of things as well. The stages in which the fly larvae are found, because you will have that maggots and things like that, they will take those maggots and they will be able to look at them under a microscope and determine how far along in the process they are to kind of get a general idea of when the body was placed there. So those are the types of things that they use to determine time of death when it's that far out. So lividity wouldn't play into time of death other than that first 8 to 12 hours. And I do think based on what we're seeing that it does fall in line with a window where I agree with you. If it were closer to 1030 p.m., the Levitity would not be consistent with her positioning of her body.

And it is. Yeah, I agree. It's clear to me that this girl was it's not like she was kept captive for a couple of days or she was dead and her body was in a certain place for like the better part of a day and then she was buried. It looks like this all happened within, you know, a five, six hour period before that lividity set in. I don't see why anybody could say like, oh, we don't know what was at the burial site that could have caused these pressure marks. There's rocks all over the place. This is nature. They definitely could have, and you can't say what else could have caused it.

So once again, I will say, I think that the team at Undisclosed and the team at HBO, what they did was a great thought experiment. That's what a defense team is supposed to do. It's supposed to raise reasonable doubt, which this did for many people. But once again, I don't think that it proves anything. They were focusing on the words in the autopsy that said, on her right side, without having a complete understanding in all the context to comprehend that this meant that Hay was twisted at her hips, which once those photos came out, we realized that that was the case. And this really shouldn't be a discussion any longer. And I will say that it does not matter whether she was buried at 7 or 1030 or midnight. Once again,

all this does is discredit Jay and make him look like a liar, which we already know. He lied. He had to have lied because everything he said can't be true. What this doesn't do is make Adnan look innocent, right? It just means Jay's not being completely honest about what went down that night. We already know that. It doesn't prove that Adnan wasn't responsible or wasn't involved. Once again, they want to keep distracting and throwing things at us that make us say, hmm, oh, Jay's lying. Jay lies, man. We get it. So I'm going to move on to the next inconsistency in Jay's story that the people who are pro-Adnan focus on. And this is the allegation that Adnan called Jay from the Best Buy parking lot. Remember, he killed Hay, had her in the trunk of her car. This is where the alleged location of the trunk pop happened when Adnan showed Jay Hay's body. And Jay said that Adnan called him from a payphone in the parking lot because Jay had Adnan's cell phone.

So when Serial talked about this portion of the case, Sarah Konek claims she could find no conclusive evidence that a payphone ever existed at the Best Buy on Security Boulevard in Windsor Mill, Maryland, which is outside of Baltimore. Now, Jay had drawn a map for the police, a hand-drawn map of the parking lot of Best Buy, and he had drawn this payphone in the corner of the parking lot right outside the Best Buy store. And then one of Adnan's classmates came forward and she was like, no, there's definitely not a payphone at Best Buy because I shoplift from that store all the time. So I'm very aware of my surroundings at that store because I would know where everything was located because I shoplift all the time. I never took that as anything because it's like, I don't know, I don't know. Like, I don't really I don't understand why anybody was supposed to take that as, you know, something like concrete.

But apparently, after hearing this episode on the podcast, a lot of people went to that very same Best Buy to do their own detective work. And not surprisingly, once again, yay Redditors, they did a really great job. Baltimore native Robert Hunt went to the store to check it out and he said, quote, it always occurred to me that there would be, at least in 1999, pay phones at a store like that, end quote. And I agree. I remember back in the 90s and even the early 2000s, there was pay phones everywhere. I worked at a Target in 2001. We still had a pay phone in there. So Hunt actually went and he found an area of carpet in the vestibule or the lobby of the store. And he said it looked as if it was covering up a

stand or a pedestal. And on the wall near that, there's an area that looks as if something was attached to the wall. As for the area that Jay indicated on his map, Hunt said, quote, it's about 30 to 35 yards from the front door. It does not seem like a logical place to have payphones. I cannot see any evidence or residual proof that there ever were payphones in that spot, end quote. I also found a Reddit post titled, there was a payphone at Best Buy, and the user wrote, quote, my husband is a supervisor at the Security Boulevard Best Buy, and he's worked there for 11 years his dad worked there with him for even longer until he retired a couple of years ago i asked them if there had

ever been payphones at the store and i didn't think they would remember but they both definitely said yes there used to be two payphones in the lobby area at that location he doesn't remember when they got taken down but now there are two panels in the wall where the payphones used to hang end quote and she posted a picture showing you know basically something similar to what robert hunt had described an area that looked as if something had been plugged into the wall and then sort of like covered up in my opinion once again the payphone or lack thereof it does not show a non's innocence it just shows that that Jay lies and he gives a dozen versions of this story. We don't know what's a lie and what's true. We don't know if payphones were there in 1999. I'm sure they were there at some point and I'm sure that's what these people are seeing.

But was that phone there in 1999? We can't say. But does it mean that Adnan couldn't have walked over to the next door that did have a payphone and call from there? He could have done that. Now, Jay specifically said that he saw the payphone. Once again, who knows? His first version of events didn't even have them at Best Buy, so who knows at this point? But once again, I know that people really hang their hat on this payphone thing and like, oh, the payphone wasn't there. Therefore, Jay is lying about everything. We can't say that because we don't know what Jay is saying, whether it's a lie or the truth.

But I do think there is some truth in what he's saying because he was clearly there when Hay was dead, whether he was there for her murder or whether he was there to just bury her body he was clearly there so some of these things he's saying are not lies is the payphone a lie is the payphone just a reason for him to use best buy as an excuse when really the trunk pop happened by his grandma's house who the hell knows only jay knows that and possibly adnan if he was involved and no one's gonna come forward and set us straight at this point over 20 years later. And I don't think the payphone is that important. Once again, Jay lies about stuff and he gets stuff wrong.

He could have been drawing a payphone he saw in another Best Buy parking lot. There was another Best Buy in this general area. He could have been drawing that payphone. He could have not even known what he was talking about and just pretending to draw a payphone. Who knows? But there were payphones there at one point, but that doesn't mean they were there in 1999. So I don't know what it means. Nothing. Yeah, it could be as simple as, and Jay has said this to police, that he was running a criminal organization, operation, whatever it might have been, out of his grandma's house. And when he originally gave the story, he was trying to separate himself and anything he had going on from this incident that

he was referring to, because he didn't want to bring heat to where his clientele was coming on a daily basis. So he said the Best Buy location as opposed to his grandma's, because I think he wanted to avoid, again, bringing cops to that area. But also, if Adnan felt comfortable enough to come directly to his grandma's house, wouldn't that be more of an indication that Jay was maybe a little bit more involved than he wanted police to know? By saying Best Buy, it's almost like he showed up unknowing what he was about to see. Oh my God, I show up at Best Buy and I think I'm just picking him up and here he surprises me with Hay's body. Now, if Adnan had told him what he was going to do, maybe Jay said, hey, meet me at my grandma's after this and we'll go from there if it ends up going down.

That's not a good look for Jay. But we know that Adnan did, according to Jay, Adnan did say what he was going to do. He said, hey, I'm going to kill her and then I'm going to call you and you're going to come get me and help me get rid of this body. So that could have been i do believe jay went to the best buy parking lot whether he was just picking it down up because remember in that like different version of events he said oh he didn't see hayes car that time he picked it down up he just picked him up in the parking lot and brought him home and then later it non showed up who the hell knows trying to make sense of it is just gonna drive you crazy when at the end of the day as we we're going to discuss in these closing statements, none of it really matters. None of it really matters because none of that timeline Adnan or Jay have a rock solid alibi

leading up to that, the day of events, right? That you can, we can bring into question, we can go back and forth all day about how it went down, where they ended up, were they at the mall, where was Adnan at school? Why was he late to class, right? All those things, it all depends on what you want to believe. But there are indications that Jay's lying about the morning. There's also indications that Adnan was lying about the morning, right? So yeah, I think I don't, I don't necessarily say it doesn't matter, but the one thing I take away from it is neither one of these individuals have a solid alibi. And I don't think Asia's account of what happened later in the day is solid either. So yeah, I leave that first morning

of the first part of the day up till about 3 32 p.m when we get that call for to nisha which we're going to talk about the the whereabouts of jay and adnan are kind of up for debate so i think most people will agree with us out there as far as theories i think we got to put a bow on some of the things we talked about earlier and then we can talk about what we've talked discussed more recently because some of us might think we got to put a bow on some of the things we talked about earlier, and then we can talk about what we've talked, discussed more recently because some of us might think we just kind of skated over it, but we can kind of go through them quickly. Some we'll spend more time on than others. For people on YouTube, I have seven pages of notes just from last, from yesterday, coming up to these final thoughts. I wanted to come up with like a page of notes. I think I have

like 34 or 35 pages of notes scribbles from these last eight episodes. This is what I've consolidated it down to without trying to be too redundant for you guys. So there might be some splices in here because I didn't write a script. I'm not as eloquent as Stephanie is. I just wrote down my notes and Stephanie's like, you're a psycho for having all those handwritten notes, but that's what I have. It made my hand hurt seeing it. It made my hand hurt writing it. So a couple of quick things. We'll go right into it. So discuss the theories. And then I'm going to give you guys my opinion on Adnan and more importantly, in my opinion on Heyman Lee and who's responsible for what happened to her. So to start, and I apologize if I'm not looking at the camera, if you're watching on YouTube,

because there's no way I have any of this memorized. First off, the random person unidentified offender theory that in many cases, as I said in episode one, is a possibility. To put it quickly, I don't think it's a possibility anymore because of Jay. Jay knew about what happened. He had guilt knowledge that he shouldn't have known. So therefore, the idea that this person was not connected to Heyman Lee in any way, shape or form, and it was just some random person to me out the window. Do you agree? Do you

disagree? Anything you want to add? I completely agree. Okay. So that's out the window. Then we get to the Don did it theory. This is a little bit more something where people are going to probably push back on a song, but for me, he really didn't have a motive for far as what I've been told, you know, in what I've heard, he, he was with a humanly, they had a good relationship. It appears that they might've been sexually active already. So it doesn't really seem like he was trying to get something out of her that she wasn't willing to be a part of. Um, and, and I guess the big thing here, which is going to be the point of contention. I feel that if his alibi was not solid, uh, someone would have been able to break that apart, whether it would be a lack of employee, uh, verification, other people saying that

they were there with him, maybe cameras in the area, maybe customers that went into the store that day, they would have been able to, to break down his alibi very quickly. I don't think this is as massive conspiracy where his mom was changing time cards on certain days and not on others we also went over the time cards and showed that where the adjustments would have taken place on previous weeks they didn't happen on that week so what do people think the motive is for don like do you ever have a clear answer of what the motive is? Because there is no motive, but if people have an idea of what they think the motive might be, then why isn't that motive equally believable when it comes to Adnan? Because then those same people will be like, oh, why would Adnan kill her? He wasn't mad about her date. Why would Don kill

her? If you can't even say what a motive is and you just believe that he did it because you don't want to believe Adnan did it, then you have to question what your biases are. Yeah, it would have had to been premeditated because he would have had a plan that day. He left the LensCrafters and there would have had to have been something leading up to it. And the way Hay used her diary and how she spoke to other people, you would think someone would have came forward and said, yeah, Don and Hay had been having some major issues. It doesn't appear to be the case. So for me, I don't feel like the Don did it theory is very viable. I can't say 100% it's ruled out as with really any of these, but I don't believe it's plausible.

Yeah, I agree. Like I would like to see just one semblance of a decent motive. And if you don't have that, like I said, if you don't have that, then you can't say that people who talk about Adnan's motive, being that he was angry and hate for breaking up with him, you can't be like, that's not a good enough motive and then not even give us a motive for why Don would do it. And as far as I know- Most people just don't go around killing people for no reason. There's something behind it that causes them to act that way. A hundred percent. Unless they're like a crazy person, like a psychopath, and then you'd think he would have done it again by now, right? I'm sure it's another thing that looked in

previous history. Does he have any history of violence, any criminal activity, any previous girlfriends? These are all things you'd want to look into. So for me, Don's out. Next one, I know how you feel about this one. You kind of went on it tonight. Alonzo Sellers. I know he was someone we discussed. To put it quickly, it sounds like he has a solid alibi that was confirmed by law enforcement. Forget all the other things that you brought up tonight. Just can't be in two places at once. It appears that they were able to confirm he was working that night. Is that what it was? Correct? Yeah, he was working. Yeah. Okay. So this next theory is something that we probably have to discuss a little bit more and by all means interject. order to, you know, take suspicion away from a man that they believe is innocent. Like everybody was so up in arms, like Adnan spent this much time in prison and he was innocent. But yet you're going to do the same thing to Alonzo Sellers, who has even less motive and even less physical evidence tying him to Hayes murder. You're going to put all this speculation on him and talk about

all of this stuff that literally has no merit or substance to it and put a cast a light of suspicion or a shadow of suspicion on this man who's innocent in order to what take it take suspicion away from Adnan who you believe is innocent but you were so offended that this innocent person went to prison like make that make sense just please show me your work do the math that's all I want to know like how did how do you like reconcile that within yourself how do you how do you do that okay keep going she really loves alonzo sellers guys and i wasn't lying no i don't i don't like him i don't like hypocrites okay the next theories we're going to get into to me they have a lot more substance to them and there's and and for this next one i I would say is something that you feel strong about.

You've said numerous times, it's that Bilal did this. Bilal killed Heyman Lee. No, I did not say that. I said- You said he could be good for it. Yes. So hear me. And I'm coming from the perspective of, and I wrote here, possible, not likely, but definitely had knowledge. As I'm writing this, these are all kind of bullet points because I wasn't necessarily writing them for you guys it's just for me to kind of recap what I what I feel and what I had

thought throughout the the series so for me I wrote a list of bad things things that don't look good for below so I wrote conversations with his wife about hey so he had brought up conversations with with his physician wife his doctor wife that Adnan was having some issues with Hay. And I believe you said, don't quote me here, he had said he would help make her disappear or it'd be better if she disappeared. Please correct me on that.

Yeah, actually I have it right here because somebody made a comment about this, by the way. So I'm gonna read it. So we have a comment from somebody called YouTube user. And she said, she, or I don't know why I'm assuming I'm so sorry. I'm assuming that you're a woman. It's because the little number or letter next to her name is pink. But they said this is another great episode, guys. I did want to say something about the Brady violation concerning Yorick slash Bilal's ex-wife and her words in a Baltimore Sun. I assume

she means Baltimore Sun article, on November 1st, 2022, they posted that Yurik transcribed the note weeks ago for the Maryland Attorney General's office in a footnote to the transcription that says he told her that he would make her disappear, he would kill her, that Yurik wrote more than two decades ago. He, Yurik, said the threat present day prosecutors are attributing to an alternative suspect, Bilal, was actually made by Adnan Syed. I don't understand the comment fully, but it makes it seem like Adnan's the one who said that. I have seen the note that's something that was brought up and Yurik said it wasn't something that was, you know, they had access to it, that the defense had access to it. That's up for debate. But for this argument, I'm just saying, let's say Bilal said it, maybe Adnan said it, but for the looking at Bilal as a potential suspect, I think that's something that if he did say it, obviously not a good thing. But moving on from that, he also,

Adnan and Bilal, asked again, his wife, Bilal's wife, a physician, could they determine time of death after? That to me is a very odd question to ask specifically about someone that you don't really know or that you're used to date. So that to me is concerning. The phone situation for me is a problem. He provided Adnan with a phone prior to the incident a sprint phone then he helped him he assisted him in getting this new phone as someone who's supposed to be a mentor somebody supposed to be looking up to I know parents said they were on board with it I don't know if I buy that it just seems like he was helping him get access to a phone for whatever reason we don't know but that's not something that I personally experienced from mentors so I don't know why he

always wanted Adnan to have a phone on him and why he was helping him and assisting him in getting those phones, but just something to be aware of. Then we get to the something that you brought up and you made a lot of, we talk about motive with Bilal. There's potential signs of sexual abuse, not only against Adnan, but other kids at the, at the mosque. And if Adnan had confided in Hay and Bilal was possibly aware of that, that would be motive for killing her. That would be a reason where he sees that Hay and Adnan are no longer together. Hay is starting to date other people and therefore

her loyalty to Adnan is dissipating and she could be a problem. Lucene's, you know, loose lips sink ships. He doesn't need this young girl out there talking about what's going on in the mosque. He doesn't want the threat of that hanging over his head now that they're not together. Yeah. Yeah, that could be a motive. And I think it's still, as I'm sitting here right now, it's still a potential motive if we're looking at Bilal as a suspect. But then you have to talk about the specifics of the day in question and how realistic is it that Bilal carried out this action on his own? And I do think it causes some it poses some issues and problems.

So first off, I have, you know, how well did Jay know Bilal? Because, again, we both agree Jay was involved in this situation somehow. And you had mentioned to me when I brought this up to you the first time, Jay and Bilal did know each other. How close they were, I guess that's up for debate, but they absolutely knew each other. But if they did know each other, and it appears they did, and Bilal did it, why would Jay blame Adnan? Why would he cover for Bilal and blame a friend of his? And then I also wrote down the question question because these are some of the things i'm doing as i'm writing because i'm a psycho uh if balal did do it uh tell adnan uh that he did it maybe adnan told jay but to protect balal adnan told jay as if he had done it even though it was below are you following me there where blau goes to adnan hey i did this

for you you need to help get rid of the body. I need you to do with this. I need you to facilitate this. I have to go. Adnan is loyal to Bilal. So he doesn't want to implicate Bilal because he doesn't completely trust Jay in that way. So instead of relaying the information the way Bilal related to him, he relays it from a first person perspective as if he did it, knowing that's what Bilal had told him. Yes. that's what we talked about last week. I think after we finished recording our episode last week, I feel like I called you when I was washing my face and I was like, the only way Jay doesn't know that Bilal's involved is if Adnan just does not relay that information, which is possible. It is possible. I don't think there's a situation where it's a collaborative effort between Bilal and Jay directly. I just, it doesn't seem like the

dynamic was there for that. But I did have some more points and also questions regarding this one. This goes back to something we mentioned earlier tonight relating to Bilal. We still, there's still some mixed DNA in there, so this could change, but it doesn't appear right now that there was DNA or fingerprints from Bilal inside Heyman Lee's vehicle, which is obviously important. Whoever killed her, you would think during the struggle, there would be some amount of trace evidence transferred to the vehicle from the offender if they weren't completely covered in latex. Right. So the fact that Bilal's if his DNA is found on her shoes or anywhere else that they just recently tested, Bilal's got major issues and he could be, he could be our guy. He absolutely could be the guy. But then some more issues with it.

Small window. He would have had to have intercepted Hay shortly after school ended without being seen by anybody else who would say, hey, that's, that's Adnan's friend Bilal at the school. Or he wouldn't just randomly come to her at an intersection hoping he's going to run into if he did this this was premeditated he has to get to her before she leaves the school and more importantly he has to convince her to go with him and if he's under the impression that he knows she knows about what he's done would she even be willing to go with him those are a lot of ifs and I don't, based on the person that we've discussed and described Hay as, she'd be willing to go with just some random friend of Adnan's when she has to pick up her cousin at

daycare in an hour. So I think there's a lot of reaches there to say, Bilal went on, did this, whether Adnan knew about it or not, and he was able to execute this offense without ever being seen or detected by anyone. What do you think about that? I agree, but I just can't get past this feeling I have, this instinct that Bilal is very much more involved than just getting Adnan a lawyer and everything in the aftermath. There's something there, whether he urged Adnan to do it, whether he kind of was whispering in his ear, like, you've got to get rid of this girl. Like, even if you were doing that, you'd still be responsible in some way, shape or form. So he didn't have to like physically do anything.

But he was Adnan's mentor, his like religious teacher. Right. He he had a big impact. He had a big influence on Adnan. Even if you take out the fact that we do believe, even though we have no concrete evidence, that there may have been some grooming happening between Bilal and Adnan or from Bilal to Adnan. Even if you take that out, just the part that he played in the mosque, in the community, would have meant he had a big influence on Adnan. So if he was in Adnan's ear constantly being like, I can't believe this girl did this to you after all that you did for her, after all you've sacrificed, see, this is why she was evil. She was the devil. Like you should just, like, I can't believe she's going to walk around and you're going to let her do that. Like he could have been in his ear and Adnan's impressionable. He's trusting of this person. And that could have been very impactful and driving. So whether Bilola was actually involved or if he knew it was gonna happen because he orchestrated it

because he arranged it, because he manipulated and brainwashed it not into thinking that this was the only way he was gonna be free from the shame and this guilt as a man who had had this done to him and his ego bruised, whether either of those things are true, he was involved, allegedly, my opinion. And I just don't know to what extent. But I think that the police or at least, you know, the state's attorney's office, maybe they do know more about

Bilal and his involvement than they've released. And then and more than we know. Yeah. And that was another question I had, you know. If they are looking at Bilal as a potential suspect, something Marilyn Mosby said is that some of these potential suspects weren't vetted fully. Well, one way you would have vetted Bilal is to check the GPS coordinates for his other phones on the day in question. Where was his phone? Yeah. Yeah. He had more than one phone. Check them all. Were any of those phones in the area of Lincoln Park, in the area of the park and ride? Were they at Woodlawn Elementary School at any point, the library? That is something you'd probably want to check out, right? I mean, did they even get his alibi at the time, right? Because they probably

wouldn't have because he wasn't even on anybody's radar until after Adnan was arrested. Yeah. And so for Bilal, we're going to move on to a couple more theories a few more but with balal where i leave with balal is it's definitely possible at minimum everything we just described is what you would refer to as reasonable doubt in a lot of situations because they didn't both do they didn't both strangle her so if if we can't rule him out definitively that's a problem when you're convicting someone of murder because this is something that is still viable. And I do believe, I have no proof, that when Marilyn Mosby is referring to other potential suspects that were known initially but weren't vetted properly, I think I speak for both of us when I say we believe that she's

definitely at minimum referring to Bilal. Yes. Okay. So we're on the same page there. So let's table Bilal for a second. We're acknowledging that it's possible. So we're on the same page there. So let's table Bilal for a second. We're acknowledging that it's possible. Then we get to our buddy Jay, right? We get to our buddy Jay and wow, man, everything's surrounding Jay. And so there's a couple things about Jay specifically. We know that he has guilt knowledge. We know that he knows about things that he shouldn't know about unless he was there and actually did it himself or was talking to someone who did. He lied a ton. We're going to acknowledge that. He's lied out his ass. The reasons behind that lying, you can come to your own opinions on that

one. Possible motive. I say that lightly because I'm going to get into some of the theories that would suggest a possible motive, although we kind of hit on it in the episode tonight. We don't think they're very plausible. And then I hate to put this out there. I'm not saying he was like this hardened criminal, but but Jay was a criminal He described himself as a criminal in some ways to law enforcement when he decided not to come forward He was running a criminal operation out of his grandma's apartment. He had had run-ins with police. He had been arrested What was it the 26th you said I mean someone yeah, he wasn't like I said this like felon That's like, you know this hardened criminal out there, but he was a guy who got in trouble. So it's a big escalation to go to murder, but he wasn't

someone who was not familiar to law enforcement. I think that's fair to say. So yeah, I mean, he's in that world. Not unfamiliar, you mean? Yeah, I'm sorry. Unfamiliar to law enforcement. So with that being said, the first motive, some of these, the first theory, some of these we can hit quick. And I'm just trying to do our due diligence here because I'm trying to cover everything that you guys may hit us with in the comments. First one, sexual advances gone wrong. I don't think that's likely.

It's kind of like with Bilal. I think, again, he would have to intercept Hay at the school. He would be in possession of Adnan's car. When he did that, it would expose him to Adnan possibly, where Adnan's going to be like, why is my car here? He would have cell phone pings from Adnan's phone at the school at that time as well. Probably have multiple pings because I was looking at some information. There was kind of like a bus loop there. So even though the school got out at like 2.15, you'd be stuck in that bus loop for a little bit. So you might have multiple pings there if you made any phone calls, things like that. Again, small window of opportunity. School lets out at 2.15. I do believe that Hay was dead

by the time three o'clock rolled around. She was supposed to pick up her cousin between three and 3.15 at daycare. She never got there. So at minimum, she was unable to physically get to that location. So she was either dead or incapacitated or being held against her will. Not seen by anyone No one ever saw jay at the school again. He would have to intercept her at the school In this particular situation where he gets her at the school they go somewhere. He makes a move on her Doesn't like her response decides. Oh shit. Now. I gotta strangle her and kill her. I just for me I don't think it's possible. I can't say it's a hundred percent not I guess a possibility

But I don't think it's possible. I can't say it's 100 percent. Not, I guess, a possibility, but I don't think it's very plausible, I should say. off of school and that's why we haven't found her pager like if that's the case that why wasn't her pager in her car or with her body did somebody page her and they didn't want us to find out about it i don't think that they would be on on the school grounds i think they would bring her to them she would go to them yeah yeah and why if she what is that what are they saying to her that that's yeah exactly that's a that's a good question if it's below maybe he's saying And why? What are they saying to her? To get her. Yeah, exactly. That's a good question. If it's Bilal, maybe he's saying, Adnan's in trouble. I need your help.

You know him so well. But Adnan's at the school. Yeah, but maybe he's saying he's in trouble mentally or something. Come meet me. Yeah, I need you to meet me. Do you think she would do that? Well, if she doesn't know that he's allegedly a pedophile, yes, she would. Maybe Bilal's assuming Adnan said something to Hay because they were so close, but maybe Adnan didn't and Bilal just didn't want to take that chance and to have that

loose end. And that's back to Bilal again, which I can't, more talking about Jay here, but I agree with you on the Bilal thing. And I will say the pager does bother me. The fact that the pager was never found, that's obviously concerning. What happened to the pager? Was it just something that was tossed because they felt like it was an electronic device and they didn't want it being tracked? Who the hell knows why they would dump it? Or more simply, there was a page that came in and that page was extremely critical to this case and that person knew it and they disposed of it somewhere else.

I think that's it, but that doesn't mean that that page didn't come from Adnan either. Adnan could have walked somewhere and paged her, and when she called him back, he said, you know, my car broke down, you know, or I need a ride. Can you just please pick me up really quick?

And that's how he ended up getting in her car. It doesn't mean that that page came from someone other than Adnan. It could have come from anyone, but I do believe the reason the pager wasn't found was because that last page told a story of who she last spoke with and who she may have met up with. Yeah, no, I think you're right. And to tie this back to Jay, and I added this later after the episode tonight because I was still making notes, all these scenarios surrounding Jay, we have to acknowledge the fact that if we're to believe adnan uh and what he might have said to christina gutierrez haye was not a huge fan of jay so all these scenarios being laid out here for her to just be willing to go with him somewhere doesn't

seem like she really liked adnan hanging out with him never mind her hanging out with him uh to sort of hang out with him without adnan doesn't seem very likely but to keep it rolling uh another theory haye saw and this wasn't seem very likely. But to keep it rolling, another theory. Hay saw, and this wasn't something we discussed, but I did see it on a couple comments, couple forums. Hay potentially saw Jay and Jen together. And you had hit on this a little bit, like he could have been cheating on Stephanie. Hay saw it.

He saw that Hay saw him, and then he asked to kill her because she's going to go and tell Stephanie. He's always with Jen. They're best friends. They're together all the time. She was with him when he got arrested She will she brought him to Stephanie's house. Why would hey seeing J with Jen his best friend that he's with every single day Cause him to be like, oh shit. He saw me with my best friend now. I must strangle her stupid stupid motive So I just wrote no. No, thank you. That's what I wrote. I literally just wrote no.

For the reasons above and what you're saying here, it just doesn't make sense. Seems like an awful escalation for, you can just tell her, hey, he's lying to you. That didn't happen. Or yeah, I was with Jen. She's my best friend. Yeah, yeah.

She didn't see what she said she saw. So here's the big theory. I saved it for last. This is the one that I think most people hang their hat on. And that's the idea that Jay was so jealous of Adnan and Stephanie's relationship that he resented him. And he wanted to frame Adnan to remove him from the equation. That's the one that I hear the most. That Jay set this up to frame Adnan so that he would go to prison and that relationship

between him and his and Jay's girlfriend would be over yeah okay so a couple issues with that I mean it's not impossible but a couple issues with it uh well I guess a couple things for it the charm in the car you brought that up that that whole scenario where Jay calls, hey, I need you to come help me pick out a gift for Stephanie. Would you mind coming? Yeah, no problem. I got to pick up my cousin. I'll come over there quick and do it. But that goes back to what I just said. Hey, and Jay were not close. They were not cool like that. I don't think hey would have ran over there for Jay to help him pick out a present when she didn't really like Jay. I just don't see it happening, especially when she had somewhere to be at three o'clock. It'd be a very small window. Secondly, if Jay had called Heyman Lee, I would assume to make it more credible, he probably would have paged or

called Hey from Adnan's phone because she definitely would have responded to it. You think you would see a paper trail on the cell phone records showing a page to heyman lee's phone where he reached out to her to have her come meet him he's got the phone on him he's using it for everything else why not use it for this he would go to a payphone and do this doesn't make a lot of sense unless he really did orchestrate this whole thing where he was trying to avoid a paper trail getting hay out to see him i I just really wasn't buying that. There's a bigger thing. And I said it to you a couple of days ago. I almost held on saying it, but I want to pose, I pose this question to Stephanie. I want to pose it to you guys, as far as this theory is concerned,

because sometimes it doesn't have to be that deep. You don't have to look all these different directions. You can just use common sense. And sometimes a simple explanation is the right one. Not always, but sometimes. And in this particular case, if you were to believe that Jay Wilds hated Adnan Syed so much and resented his relationship with Adnan's relationship with Stephanie so much that he was willing to go out of his way to kill an innocent girl and then to implicate himself in a murder, risking his own freedom he wanted to frame adnan why not avoid all that and spend your mental your brain power setting adnan up having him meet you somewhere and then killing him just kill adnan avoid all the risk get adnan to a location kill him bury him at leakin park and walk away from it and hope the police never connect the

dots. Then the only person that knows that secret is you. And you avoid integrating yourself in a murder by having to go to the police to frame Adnan in the first place. It just seems like the ultimate, I don't know how many people know this expression, but going around your ass to get to your elbow. Now, Stephanie brought up some points and i'm sure you'll make them again because you you were i wanted you i don't want you just to be an echo chamber but that's kind of where i'm at where if i hate adnan that much that i'm willing to risk going to prison for the rest of my life i might as well make sure i accomplish my mission and get adnan out of the equation directly and then see where the chips fall. Yeah, because we've talked about this before, but I will reiterate, Jay was taking a big risk by placing Adnan with him when Adnan claimed he was at school. Jay doesn't know what Adnan's doing or who he's talking to while he's at school. So

if Adnan was truly at school and Jay was like, nah, he was with me. Any number of things could have happened while Adnan was at school. He could have been given an exam. He could have met with his guidance counselor. He could have had a huge discussion with a teacher about something. He could have taken a picture with a friend. Any one of those things, the smallest thing that Jay could not have planned for could have happened where the police would be like, I don't know what to tell you, Jay, but when you say that Adnan was killing Hayman Lee, he was at school. And here's a picture of him with his history teacher and their project that they made together. He's running a track. He's running track right now. Yeah, exactly. It just doesn't. It's way too big of a risk to take. It's not like Jay

said, oh, Adnan was with me and Adnan was like, actually, I was home alone. Adnan's like, I was at school where there's like hundreds of other people. And Jay would have no way of knowing what was happening while Adnan was at school. And if anybody there could give him a solid alibi. And at that point, you're left holding the bag and you're going to prison for murder alone by yourself. That's it. Yeah, I agree. And by the way, adding to it again, we've said it multiple

times, I believe, as we know right now, there's been nothing released that indicates J Wild's fingerprints, trace DNA, anything is in Heyman Lee's car. And he would have an argument to maybe say he had been in there before and that's why he's there. But from what we know, there's been nothing presented in court or in any reports that we've seen where some of the fingerprints identified in the car amongst Adnan's fingerprints belong to Jay Wilds. And I would think that if he were involved, you would expect to see that at certain portions of the vehicle and you don't. So I do think that's a big component. Yes, he could have worn gloves, but as Stephanie Stephanie had said in the episode if there's a struggle like that where he's strangling a young girl She's gonna fight clearly she did from the steering steering column being busted on the wiper blade indicator or whatever it is

There the blinker is that what you would call it the blinker control you would expect some trace DNA Maybe just a couple hair fibers something skin DNA something to kind of smear onto the car. Something from his clothes, something from his gloves that he was wearing on her neck when he was strangling her, allegedly. If he's wearing gloves in the car and there's no fingerprints, well, if he's strangling her in the car, he's got to have those gloves on and you're pressing into somebody's skin. You'd think that there'd be fibers from the glove maybe left on her skin or on her clothing. Something. He wouldn't be just a ghost.

Once again, 18-year-old, 19-year-old kid. He doesn't know shit about forensics or how to protect, you know, every part. He's not Dexter, for God's sake. You know, so it's like something would be in there. But it looks as if Jay was never in Hayes' car ever, which begs the question, like, well, how did her car get to the place where it was left? And how did her body get to Lincoln Park? Right. And about the gloves, I hit on it earlier where I'm giving, you know, I'm giving alternate theories where I'm like, oh, maybe he was wearing gloves. But I just want to say from my own personal experience, you live in New York.

I live in Rhode Island. Unless I'm going to be outside for a long period of time, even if it's freezing out, I don't care if it's 30 degrees outside. I don't usually throw gloves on to go from my house to my car. If I'm out there shoveling or something, I'll throw gloves on, but I'll keep my hands in my pockets or whatever. And I usually don't like to wear gloves. Maybe people are different. The reason I bring that up is I know it was cold that day. It wasn't freezing But most of the time if you're gonna be going into a view from that from the building to a vehicle You're probably not gonna throw winter gloves on if you're gonna be sitting in a car and if you are you're gonna take them Off, you're not gonna be driving around with winter gloves on so whether you believe it's below whether you believe it's J

Whether you believe it's Adnan My vision being in that vehicle, they're having a conversation, whoever this person is with, hey, they're not sitting there with gloves on. They're probably sitting there with their bare hands. And this happened, Spunt, in the moment. Even if it was premeditated, it was a surprise attack. He wasn't sitting there and he could be anybody you wanted to be talking to her, putting on gloves in front of her, and then proceeding to strangle her. I just don't see that in my eyes, in my head. Some of you may say, well, how the hell do you know, Derek?

And I guess you're not wrong, but that's just not how I envision it, where this person is going, uh-huh, yep, let me just throw on these gloves, latex gloves, even more so weird. Oh, what's this? So this is just a little like a lab coat sort of thing that I wear over my real clothes. Don't worry about that. Keep talking. Keep talking about your boyfriend, Don. No, I just I just don't see it. I just don't see I think the strangulation probably happened with their bare hands. And that's just that's that's speculation on my part. I agree. Actually, I think the whole glove story is actual bullshit. I do think that whoever strangled her, it wasn't necessarily premeditated.

It was kind of like in that moment. Yeah. I'm going to see if like I can get what I want out of the situation. And if I can't, maybe there was something in the back of this person's head that said, if I can't, I'll kill her because they had already been like brainwashed by, you know, some sort of religious mentor or something. But once they realized like they weren't making headway, it was this snap and this, what do they call it? Crime of passion, even though I hate that term. Yeah. Yeah. But this person could have been thinking about it, going into it. Yeah, exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. They could have been definitely fantasizing about this, this idea of doing this because of how they felt about, hey, so that does

bring us to adnan right and and there's really they're kind of the same but to kind of separate him a little bit you have the theory that adnan did this by himself and then basically dragged jay into it after the fact where he was like hey you're a criminal if you don't help me i'm gonna snitch you out to the police and therefore implicating myself as well. I'm going to show them your operation at grandma's house. Yeah. He blackmailed them. Hey, you're a criminal. You don't want, I'm going to tell them where your weed is because they're going to be more concerned about that than the fact that you were potentially, or I was potentially involved in a murder. I just think there's too many moving parts to it. That's what I wrote here. It's a big risk to go into this,

not with Jay's blessing in some way, where Jay's in the car with you telling you, this is what I would do. I got your back. You give me a call. I'm there. I know where we can bring the body. And by the way, Jay never came forward after the fact when this all went down. He could have came to police the next night and said, hey, I'm not going down for this.

This dude called me up, brings me over. There's a body in the car. He made me go to this crime scene, but yeah, I'm not going down for murder. I got other things going on, whatever is whatever, but he decided he was going to ride this one out and hope that it never got linked back to him, which is a big risk. Exactly. Exactly. If you're going to frame someone, you think you're going to make the police think you're having this good faith, like, you know, you're coming to them and like this happened. I can't live with this. Like I was dragged into this. You're going to bring it to their attention. You're not going to wait for them to like identify you through, you know, all of these different means or all these different pathways. A means that you don't even know if they're going to be able to do that. I just think that scenario is Jay lying through his teeth because he's trying to minimize his involvement.

I think the second scenario is more likely, which is that Jay advised, assisted, and participated in the death and disappearance of Heyman Lee. And if you're to believe this particular scenario, it was with Adnan Syed. And if that's the scenario, I think Jay and him had discussed it. He had probably told her in the car, like Jay said, I want, I'm going to kill her. And he had said, man, listen, I'm right to die with you, whatever you got to do. I've seen things like this before. I have buddies who may be done, who, whatever lies he was telling to try to make himself look like a hardened criminal, as he described himself in some ways. Hey, if you do this, you can go over here. I feel like he was a lot more involved than he wants people to know.

What's the motive for Jay in that scenario, though? I thought about this. And again, we're just speculating here. But there have been times where you call someone on the carpet when they talk about being tough and they don't expect you to call them out and when you do they freeze or they don't know what to do and it could be a situation where truly and this isn't trying to give jay any any you know way out here where adnan's talking in the car like i'm gonna kill that bitch and he's like yeah man if she did that to me i would choke her out she'd be dead they'd never find her again i'd help you bury that bitch if i if you had to like basically i'm gonna one-up you you're saying that dude i i'll do this i'll kill somebody for breakfast not knowing that adnan's like no i'm really gonna kill her and so then when it happens now he's like

oh now i'm pot committed i already told this kid i'd help him him. And he does. And he called me on the carpet, man. He called me on the carpet. So he gets the tools. He brings in the leak in park. All these things where he's facilitating a lot of this. That's why he brings him to Kathy's house because they're trying to get a game plan together. Kathy wasn't a friend of Adnan. She was barely a friend of Jay's.

Christy. A.K.A. Christy, right? So they bring him there that's that's jay's doing where they're kind of going around smoking weed talking the shit out trying to think about where what the next steps are so um it could have been jay pumping him up too like oh if she did that to me she's sleeping with this other dude yeah that'd be a wrap that'd be done with it so we'll never know that's the whole part of this conversation that it's literally a he said, he said. They both have their opinions. Nobody knows the truth, but Adnan Syed and Jay Wilds,

they're the only ones that were present. We can make some reasonable deductions based on the call logs and the cell phone pings. But as far as what happened that day, it's open to interpretation. Although I will say there are things that show that Jay is lying, but there are also things that show that Adnan's lying, specifically him saying that at 11.30, he got dropped back off at school

and yet he's 45 minutes late to his one o'clock class. So these are things that pose some problems for Adnan as far as his credibility is concerned regarding that day. That's the only thing I'll say about that. Yeah. And honestly, if you look at it, no one else has a motive besides Adnan. And you might be like, oh, this isn't a good enough motive. Being jealous isn't a good enough motive. And like, I agree with you because I'm a normal person who doesn't kill people, right? So I don't think it's a good enough. I don't think there's any motive good enough to kill someone. Yet people still do kill other people over this kind of shit. People kill other people because they're cheating. People kill other people because

they broke up with them and chose someone else this happens every day all the time and uh you know it's not like he's the only one that has a motive like you don't you can't really say what jay what reason like like derek said if if he wanted to frame anon for hayes murder then why not just kill it not why would you kill hayes she didn't do anything do you announce the person you have a problem with it n's the person you want kept away from your girlfriend. And God forbid, you know, your girlfriend Stephanie ever finds out you killed her friend Hay just to set up Adnan, like she'll never forgive you. If you take Adnan out, that solves your problem. And, you know, there's less of this like hullabaloo and all of these, you know, different like steps that you have to take, which which clearly didn't end up working out, really, because, yeah, I guess he did, you know, point the finger at Adnan.

And some people believe him, but most people say this guy's lying about everything and we don't know what what he's saying is the truth or not. And that doesn't lead to any credibility. If you killed Adnan, this is done. It's done. You don't have what he's saying is the truth or not. And that doesn't lead to any credibility. If you killed Adnan, this is done. It's done. You don't have to worry about Stephanie. You don't have to worry about killing an innocent girl named Hay that you don't even have any relationship with. I can't imagine that Jay and like somebody was saying, I don't think Adnan's a psychopath. I don't think Jay's a psychopath where he's just going to kill a girl he barely knows to get some guy away from his girlfriend. It's not a good motive is what I'm trying to say.

Adnan's motive at least makes sense. And we have seen that it historically happens. Jay's motive makes no sense. It's so backwards. It's so convoluted. And if you wanted to make it fit, I suppose you could. But why would you want to make it fit that hard? It's because you want to ignore the fact that Adnan maybe was involved with this. And that's fine. I understand. But he maybe was involved with this. And that's something I think that a lot of people have to now face and accept the possibility. So with Adnan, it's almost like you read my notes.

So with Adnan, we talked about the scenario that Jay and Adnan did this together, right? That this was something that was carried out. And I know I'd be foolish not to acknowledge that people want to hear our opinions on Adnan and do we think he was involved or not. So I did go a little deeper with Adnan. Some of it is a refresher on what we discussed over eight parts because I don't want to just say what I'm going to tell you what I think about that scenario with Jay and Adnan, but I just want to bring a couple of things back to your attention. I know this episode's going long and apparently

none of you guys care about it. So I'll just keep going. So you mentioned motive. Okay. So this is something I wrote about motive with Adnan. Okay. Motive, jealousy, Don, disrespect. Okay. And I kind of elaborate on a little bit. She disrespected him. She disrespected his reputation. She disrespected his family by having him do what he was doing for her and not reciprocating what he felt about her and moving on to another man. It was an ego thing and he was extremely upset about it. And this isn't just speculative because here we have different things. He was displaying problematic behavior. What were those things for me? Anyways, he was ingraining himself into Hay's schedule, including but not limited to going to teachers that he knew she

confided in and trying to interject himself in a situation where he would either cross paths with Hay or he maybe get some inside information about what Hay was discussing with certain teachers. Again, not speculative. Hay picked up on this as well. We know that by the call she made, I believe, to Mrs. Schaub. And clearly from her own behavior, Hay was uncomfortable with the behavior he was displaying, which is why she said to Mrs. Schaub, don't tell him I'm on the phone. That's not normal. And that's why she said in that letter to him, people break up all the time. You're going to be fine. But this is ridiculous. You got to chill out. That's not verbatim. Obviously, I'm paraphrasing. But yeah, it's basically like you're going too hard on this. You need to just

get over it. People break up all the time. You're going to be OK. Why would she say that if he wasn't going a little hard and being extra? Going a little hard. And clearly clearly she was uncomfortable. And I don't think anyone should have to feel like that after a breakup when she can't, she feels uncomfortable to go see a teacher that she's close with because she's up. She's concerned that her boyfriend's going to be meeting her there unwarranted. So that's one thing, uh, showing up to work when a car had the accident or whatever. That's again, that is something that, depending on who you talk to, they'll feel different about it. But I ask myself, if Hay had moved on to Don,

Don's already there, at minimum, you don't want your ex-boyfriend crossing paths with your potential current boyfriend or future boyfriend. So me personally, if I'm Hay, I don't want that occurring. So I'm not gonna ask both individuals to come out and help me with my car. Probably gonna pick the new boyfriend, but I won't go that occurring. So i'm not going to ask both individuals to come out and help me with my car Probably going to pick the new boyfriend But I won't go too deep on that one because I think people can make arguments for both sides again

Hayes no longer with us don was already working that day. So it could be just as simple He was walking out to his car But the fact that adnan showed up I would love to be a fly on the wall to know if he was asked Or he just invited himself that could contribute to what we just talked about with the teacher. And finally, the night before. I know not everyone agrees with me. I do believe he called and said that he was calling multiple times that night, late at night, to give her his phone number. But I absolutely believe in my gut there was a deeper agenda.

He wanted to know where she was and who she was with. And she was probably on the other line, which he could tell because you could tell when people are clicking over. And he was able to come to a reasonable conclusion that she was on the other line with a guy he really didn't like, Don, the guy she left him for. So I'm sure as any person would feel that did not make him feel good inside getting off that phone call at at 12 30 in the morning uh which that behavior that feeling probably carried over to the next day and i also want to bring up the fact that we mentioned it quickly in the in the series but

there was a note found that was written on and i believe i'd not acknowledge that it was his handwriting that said i'm going to kill and it was on a note that was originally about Heyman Lee, right? It was a note being passed back and forth. It was that note that she wrote him saying like, chill out. You're going to be fine. Like, you know, basically leave me alone. And then, yeah, they were passing it back and forth. And he said he didn't remember writing that, but. Didn't he acknowledge it was his handwriting or something along those lines that it appears to be his handwriting? I don't know if he ever acknowledged that it was his handwriting, but it looks like his handwriting because you can see the other notes that he's writing to Asia. You can see

that it looks like his handwriting. I would go out and I'm not a handwriting expert. I would go out on a limb and say it is his handwriting. Okay. Either way, again, all of this circumstantial. And then finally, if you don't believe myself or Stephanie that Adnan was upset with Hay, don't take our word for it. Take Jay's and take Bilal's. And there was probably other people, but Bilal told his wife. Lots of other people said that he was upset. He was upset.

He was not cool with this. He had not moved on. He was not dating other women and he was over Hay. And it was kind of like he was indifferent about who she dated that was clearly not the case nobody's going to convince me of that well he was talking to other other girls right he was talking to nisha and things like that but just because you're talking to other girls and i hate this implication that that gets made well he was moved on he was talking about just because you're talking to other girls doesn't mean you're moved on. OK, it means that she moved on and now you're forcing yourself to move on because you don't want it to look like you haven't moved on.

But you're just going through the motions and you're still hung up. These are high school kids. I have a 21 year old daughter who it feels like was in high school like yesterday. And I've been through this with her, with her friends. Mingya, these kids do not move on. OK, it takes forever and they all it's all drama and they're all texting each other like oh I heard so-and-so's talk this this whole like yeah he was completely fine with it and he moved on and he's 17 they try to act like he's an adult and

even most adults don't take it that well so I completely 100 million percent agree with you they tried to make us think so hard that he was just perfectly fine with it and he had moved on and she wasn't important to him. But you have these statements from his friend, Peter Billingsley, who said he'd had sex with one other girl before, but he had never loved anybody before. Hey, that's his first love. That's important. That's impactful to a young man. And to a young man who maybe doesn't have the best grasp on his emotions, who maybe doesn't have a great set of coping skills yet, when that person leaves you and crushes you, it feels like you've been crushed. He was not

over it by January 13th. I can tell you that much right now, in my opinion. But yeah, I don't know why they're trying to make it seem like he was just so easy breezy, you know, so cool about it. Everything's cool, man. No, no. Most adults don't even act like that. But definitely 17 year olds don't. They're in the constant state of like emotional heightenedness, you know, heightened emotions constantly. No, nothing's ever cool with them and it's exhausting. Yeah. So that's motive. I just wanted to cover on Adnaud's motive and that's something that I've thought about extensively over these eight parts because I don't take, again, not that my opinion is going to change anything, but I don't make any statements without really considering the implications of what I'm saying and how significantly I'm not doing it just to be clickbaity. So that's motive. I'm going to hit on a couple points regarding the day in question. And one thing after the day in question, you can probably guess at what that is. And the reason I'm going to hit on these super quick is because this is how I came to the conclusion that I came to. So I think they're important just for me,

the things that stood out because we talked about a lot. So first thing, allegedly Adnan tells multiple people that day that he's going to be getting a ride from hay at the end of the day Even though earlier that morning he had his vehicle with him. So that to me is a problem He had his vehicle with him, but he's yet asked he's he's anticipating or has already asked. Hey For a ride home i'm assuming to go get his track closed before practice because that had been done before And it was not uncommon even when he had his vehicle to have hay do that for him so not completely out of the question and apparently that happened on the day she disappeared uh he says to police that he was at school after 11 30 he went with jay for a little bit came back however the only real piece of documentation

record that we have of that day where we can say, hey, Adnan's telling the truth. He's right where he said he was, is a classroom, a class that started around 1, 1.30. He was 45 minutes late. And it aligns with partially what Jay was saying as far as them going out and smoking weed and going to the mall and then coming back. So you can say what you want about Jay, but based on this tardiness, it's more in line with Jay than it is with Adnan. Here's where it gets interesting for the day in question. I'm not going over a lot of things for the morning. I've said it numerous times tonight. I feel like you could pick both sides apart indefinitely.

We could be here for 20 parts doing that. Where I really want to focus is at 3.32. And the reason I want to focus at 3.32 is because that's when the call is made to Nisha, who is a friend of adnan's Not a friend of jay's. It's a two minute and 20 sec a 22 second call I know you had hit on the fact that it might be a butt dial. I don't believe that Nisha has said that she remembers the call. She remembers adnan being on the phone and then handing it to jay I believe that happened

I believe that happened. No one's that phone call can't be manipulated. It happened on that day. It's in the call log. The only thing to pass it away is that, oh, it was this random butt dial that happened. I refuse to believe that. I don't think that's the case. I think it was Jay and Adnan setting up an alibi together saying, if we call Nisha and hello, we're at a video store, not necessarily a video store that Jay worked at, but just like a blockbuster or something.

It's 1999 or maybe they just say they're at a store,, not necessarily a video store that Jade worked at, but just like a blockbuster or something. It's 1999, or maybe they just say they're at a store. But if they call Nisha and they say they're at a store right around that 3.30, 3.40 time, later when it comes out, oh, hey, didn't go to pick up her niece around that 3.15, 3.30 time. So where were you when that happened?

Well, we were talking to my friend Nisha, you can ask her. So I think that they were trying to set up an alibi and it blew up in Adnan's face. So he acted like he didn't remember making the call, in my opinion. That's what allegedly I think happened. And I think you might be onto something there. And the reason why I'm focusing on it is because we can bring into question what happened even during the time when allegedly Hay was killed. But what happens is this intersection at 3.30 where Adnan and Jay are together. And I think what's as important as what happened before Hay went missing and when she was you know, when she allegedly was killed. It's also what happened after between the suspects of this case. What was their behavior after, for most parties believed is already dead? What would they do the rest of the night? I think that's equally important. So that brings in

anything after 3.32 when now we believe Adnan has been reunited with his phone and Jay is with him as well. Because the next big thing that I wanted to point out was the 5.30 to 6.30 time period where most parties, whether you're on Team Adnan or Anti-Adnan, believe for the most part that this interaction at Kathy, aka Christy's house, did happen. And the call logs for that day also align with it. Again, Christy, aka Kathy, doesn't know what call logs are going to be shown to the police for Adnan Syed's phone. And yet the way she remembers it based on what was on TV aligns perfectly with her memory of the interactions that Adnan was having on his phone. The call from allegedly Hay's brother happened there at 6.07.

There was apparently a call from Asia at 6.09, very quick, 53 seconds. And then the call at 6.24 from Detective Adcock, where allegedly, allegedly Adnan tells him at that point, yeah, he was supposed to give me a ride, but I got tied up. So I didn't get to her. And, but I know Adnan says he doesn't remember that, but at that moment, when the police make their first contact with Adnan, he gets spooked. He walks out of the house because he doesn't want people to hear the phone call and they're never seen again. I feel like that behavior is indicative of somebody who's like, oh shit, I'm on the radar already. And that's why the abruptness when they left, they were trying to make plans. They were trying to get off the road for a little bit. So they went to

Jay's house. Adnan basically walked right in with him, even though he didn't know him. You mean Christy's house. They were trying to get off the map. So they went to Christie's house. They went to Christie's house. They're sitting there. They're laying low, smoking weed. But they've got Hayes' body in her car. And now that he knows he's on the radar, he's like, well. They got to make a move. We got to make a move. We got to bury her now. Yeah. They got to make a move. And there's no way Kathy would know that his phone records were going to support what her observations were. Right. So I know that you brought up the idea that 14 years later she's on this HBO docu series and now she's even questioning herself. Yeah, no, I didn't go for whatever reason. They moved it to a next day or something because of whatever. Yeah, something happened. But I feel like it's you have a lot of people there.

And I think the reason they didn't have Jeff testify is because he probably said the same thing as Kathy or Christy. So you have that as the night progressed, the phone starts pinging in locations where Adnan says he is. But the the pings don't support it specifically. He says he's at the mosque, but the cell phone data does not support that. It's other places. And we know at that point, Adnan has his phone. So either he's lying about being at the mosque or the cell phone data is corrupted. And we went over that at length tonight. I don't believe that. Some of you out

there may. I don't think Stephanie does either. I believe the cell phone data is accurate. If it's accurate for certain points of the day, when Jay had the phone earlier in the day, then it's accurate at night when Adnan saying he's at the mosque. And yet his cell phone is not using the tower located closest to the mosque. Yeah. Cause y'all be saying like, Oh, Jay, definitely. Jay definitely wasn't a gens that day at all because the cell phone pings. So he wasn't a gens. And I agree with you, but then you can't be like, Jay definitely wasn't a gens. But then you can't be like, Jay definitely wasn't at Jen's and then later be like, oh, Adnan definitely was at the mosque. The cell phone data is wrong. You got to make up your mind. I agree that Jay wasn't at Jen's

and that Adnan wasn't at the mosque later that night, like at least not for the whole time, because that's being consistent with how I'm viewing the evidence. And me and you are on the same page. And then the final thing, which I feel is probably the most significant, is January 27th, when on January 26th, Jay Wilds is placed under arrest and Adnan makes a mistake. He makes a mistake. He gets panicked. Paranoid, yeah. And he goes out to the two crime scenes to see what's going on. Did Jay flip on me? Do I got to make a run for it? Do I got to move things? And not knowing how cell phone data works, he goes by those two locations just to get an indication of what might be transpiring.

And as we said in this episode, if those pings had even happened 10 times over the thousand different GPS pings that you had, I would say, ah, it's not as strong, but a thousand pings over that period, only two times where Heyman Lee's car was parked and where Heyman Lee was buried only happened twice. And it just so happened the day after Jay was arrested. I don't think that's a coincidence. And the day that Hay went missing, January 13th. Right. Jay went missing. Hay went missing on the 13th. Doesn't happen again until the time Jay's arrested.

I just feel like that's too much of a coincidence. Until the 27th and then never again after that. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. So some of you may be like, ah, I don't see it. I think that's extremely compelling. And I think it indicates something. It indicates a mistake. So with all that being said, here's my final thoughts on the idea that Adnan Syed killed

Heyman Lee with the help of Jay, of course. All right. I'm going to read off of this because I wrote a lot here and I want to try to make sure I get it right because I want to be correct in what I'm saying. So even after charges being vacated against Adnan, it is still my opinion that it's very possible he was involved in the murder of Heyman Lee with the assistance of Jay. I just feel like there's a mountain of circumstantial evidence against him. And it would be irresponsible for me to say with the lack of exculpatory evidence in this case, that in no way, shape or form, it's possible that he's responsible for her death. I just can't do it being a professional for as long as I was. Now, that being the case,

we have to evaluate the totality of the circumstances. And when you're evaluating the totality of the circumstances, yes, you're considering the circumstantial evidence that implicates a particular individual, but you also have to evaluate the information that raises a level of reasonable doubt against said person. You can't discredit that. And as we discussed a little while ago about Bilal, some of the DNA evidence, some of these other scenarios that could have taken place, I do think those situations do raise a level of reasonable doubt where if the jury during the second trial had acquitted Adnan Syed, I would not have been opposed to it. Because I do think there were certain things, specifically the lack of vetting regarding Bilal, that could have convinced me as a jury member not to convict him. So if that had happened at that second trial, I would have had no issues with it. However, with the recent vacating of the charges,

based from what I've understood on, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, it was mainly the DNA evidence that came forward where there was a mixture of DNA, none of it linked to Adnan, but also it was the lack of vetting of other potential suspects in this particular case, where it was for her, Marilyn Mosby, a combination of a few different things where she decided to vacate these charges. I don't feel like that evidence in and of itself, which for the most part was known during the second trial, would be enough to go back and vacate these charges. So it's my opinion that the decision to do so was more politically motivated than based on some type of exculpatory evidence that definitively ruled Adnan Syed out

as a suspect. That's where I fall on it. Again, this is my opinion. I have no significance in this case, no skin in the game. It doesn't really matter to me. The only thing that matters to me is that a young girl was killed and we're in a situation now, because that's really what this whole series was about, is getting justice for Hay and her family. We're in a situation where one, the person who killed her was originally caught, went to prison for over 20 years and got out on some things regarding the case, a technicality, politics, whatever you want to call it. There's another situation where the person who did this, where Bilal was responsible for this and was able to manipulate the situation and avoid detection. And he's in prison for something else now, but he's actually the guy we should be looking

at. So I'm hoping, although I'm not very optimistic about it, that if it was not Adnan, that this new DNA evidence, this mixture of DNA will link to someone who is a potential suspect, has been on the radar, and this may put them over the edge. But I have a hard time believing that any prosecution at this point, based on what's transpired with Adnan, would be able to get a guilty conviction of another individual with all this reasonable doubt you would have

because for 25 years they thought it was Adnan Syed. That's where I fall on it. Very long-winded. You guys wanted more episodes. You got two episodes in in one tonight and i'd have to say it's poss partially my fault right yeah i was i was over here thinking like last episode you were like i'm fatigued with this case it's just and i get it because it's like so so much and i hear you in the comments and you're like people are saying i get confused with all the different things like me too man it's like a lot and you want to keep digging but it's not like things get clearer the more you keep digging so it was best that's what

it was for me and i maybe i i i felt the comments so people were like oh you're fit it's more so i feel like you can never hear it all but i I feel like I heard enough to make an educated opinion on it. I feel like we could beat both sides of the aisle up more if we wanted to. But that's all we would be doing. That's all we'd be doing. Any closer to the truth, because any truth that existed out there has been buried a long time ago. And at this point, I wonder, wonder you know maybe in 50 60 years are we gonna see a deathbed confession from jay wilds is he gonna finally no not at non no no after all

of this man and if he did this and he can walk around talking at colleges smiling at the camera no he'll never um come clean because honestly like Adnan, if we're talking about him being the one who killed Hay and the reason he killed Hay, if we're looking at it like that, someone like him, he's going to think, I did my time. I did enough time for this. I was a kid. It was an accident. I didn't mean to do it.

I served over 20 years. I have nothing to feel bad about at this point. Yeah. And just to reiterate, it's my opinion where we weren't, we didn't go into the same. We're going to show how Adnan could have done it. It's just the direction we went. It's just direction where it went for me at least.

And I told you in episode two that I wasn't going to shy away from it. I believe in what I'm saying. Is it possible with someone else? For sure. But just based on what, what I know and the holes and add-on story and some of the behaviors afterwards and and the phone pings it's just too much for me to sit here and say oh no i you know yeah i think they got the wrong guy there's no way that anybody who who's listened to these even half of these could say like 100% he wasn't involved.

And that's why it bothers me and it boggles my mind that people still do. And that shows me that like, I can't really take anything you're saying seriously because you're not keeping an open mind and you clearly just go, you've gone into this with a bias and that's fine. But I can't debate this with you

because it would be like hitting my head against a wall. This isn't for you. This is for the people who are on the fence who really have have only been exposed to to really one side of this case. If you're honest with yourselves, the majority of the coverage on this case has been geared towards Adnan's innocent and we're going to prove it. And, you know, serial undisclosed, all of the main stuff that's been put out about Adnan has been very geared towards like he's innocent. We did this to see if we felt the same way. I told Derek earlier I wanted to find out and feel that he was deeply. Why would I want that to be the ending to the story? I don't want that. But I also can't deny it just because I don't want it. That's not how life works. I feel like going into it, you were like very anti-cop in this one and were leaning towards he might not be guilty.

No, I'm still anti-cop in this one. They screwed up, man. Oh, yeah, for sure. But I feel like you were like, eh, there's a real possibility here. I wanted him to be innocent. Of course, he was 17. You know, to think that this is what your life amounted to now and that even if you don't come forward and say what happened, you still have to live with this in some way, shape or form. Like, that's not the outcome I wanted.

But we have to I think what we did was we did this for Hayes family, because I think if you if you look at the perspective of Hayes family and you think that Adnan did this as Hayes family and you see all of these people out there cheering when this guy walks out and you see all of these people like basically if you saw that HBO docuseries, they villainized Hayes family. They made the Hayes family look terrible. They made her community look terrible. And you've already been victimized. You lost your daughter. And now people are cheering for who you believe to be her killer to get out and, you know, championing for his innocence. And everybody's completely forgotten her, forgotten her name, forgotten why they're here in the first place. We did this for Hayes family so we could give a different perspective than has been really out there in the mainstream, a full perspective, I hope. And if we didn't gear it enough towards like Adnan's side, that's because there's a million things, a million hours worth of Adnan's side out there. We wanted to show the other side and I hope we did. And that doesn't mean that we want him to be guilty. We don't. Why would we want to? I don't think it matters at this point, Stephanie. He's never going to prison again. Whether you believe it or not, I can assure you based on what had just transpired, he

will never, unless there's a video or a confession by him, he will spend the rest of his life as a free man. Maybe that's how it should be. Maybe it's a miscarriage of justice. We may never know. Yeah. Well, let's wrap this up now I guess there's nothing left to say 28 episodes 27 hours later

we're wrapping the series up we hope you guys got a lot out of it I know I did thank you for the extensive research Stephanie thank you for agreeing to cover this because I had asked you to cover this one I didn't really know much about it I really do feel informed about it now I feel good about my opinion now at this point knowing everything I know We would love to hear your comments down below Make sure you're weighing in and like Stephanie said at the beginning a lot of work went into this So if you if you whether you like our opinions or not, but you appreciate the work that was done Make sure you leave us comment. Make sure you leave us a review. We'd really appreciate it as always

We will be back next week. We appreciate you tuning in. Stay safe out there. Have a good night.