Crime Weekly - S2 Ep104: Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins: From Meyers Lake to Seven Bridges (Part 2)

Episode Date: December 16, 2022

Go to https://Surfshark.deals/crimeweekly and use code crimeweekly to get 85% off a 2 year plan plus 3 extra months for free! https://brightcellars.com/crimeweekly Bright Cellars is giving Crime Weekly listeners an exclusive Black Friday offer of $50 off their first box and $20 off their second box ($70 value). Take advantage of this limited-time offer by going to brightcellars.com/crimeweekly. That’s B-R-I-G-H-T-C-E-L-L-A-R-S.com /CRIMEWEEKLY. Bright Cellars, helping you discover wine you’ll love. It was a hot Summer afternoon in July of 2012 when young cousins, Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins happily rode away from Eizabeth’s house in Evansdale, Iowa. No one could imagine that these two little girls would never return home, and even though their bicycles and belongings were found within hours of them being reported missing, it would take months to find their bodies and lay them to rest. Over the last decade, the loss of Elizabeth and Lyric has had ripple effects through their community, and the stress and pain of never knowing what happened caused a rift amongst their family members. And with the recent arrest of Riched Allen, the suspect in the Delphi murders case, law enforcement has been investigating a possible connection between Allens and what happened to Elizabeth and Lyric in Evansdale just five years prior. Both crimes took place in small Midwestern towns of just a few thousand people, Evansdale is only three hundred miles from Delphi. Both crimes involved the horrific murders of two young girls who were out together alone, and there has been discussion about how the dates of both disappearances are anagrams of each other, with Elizabeth and Lyric vanishing on 7-13-12, and Abby and Libby going missing on 2-13-17. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: Wherever you go this holiday season, bring a little wonderland with you. Go to the App Store or Google play to download Best Fiends for free. Plus, earn even more with $5 worth of in-game rewards when you reach level 5. That’s Friends, without the r—Best Fiends. Download the FREE Upside App and use promo code private to get $5 or more cash back on your first purchase of $10 or more. That’s $5 or more cash back on your first purchase of $10 or more, using promo code, private. Go to HelloFresh.xom/crimeweekly18 and use code crimeweekly18 for 18 free meals plus free shipping!

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek the dates here just for everybody to know we won't be having a podcast episode the week of Christmas. We're taking that week off. Yay. And probably everybody will be so busy with a million things happening, you won't even notice. But just for everybody's information, there will be no audio podcast on December 23rd. And then that means there will be no video podcast that following Sunday, which is December 25th, Christmas Day. We'll be back in audio on December 30th. And then that following video will happen on January 1st, 2023, which is crazy. That's the new year. And that will also be

our start of season three, season three of Crime Weekly. How exciting. So we'll make sure to talk a little bit more about that in our last episode of the year. But crazy that we are already in our third season and we got to start it off with a bang. We got to have a really good case to really dive into the new year and the new season with. Isn't that always the situation? We're always talking about it where it's like, what's the next one? What are we going to do next? And we definitely have, unfortunately, a lot of cases to choose from. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. We're actually, to bring you behind the curtain a little bit. You probably just watched last week, part one of this series. This is actually the same night. So we changed our shirts. We're going to be

recording part two. And the reason we're doing it is our, our editor who's awesome. Shannon is going to be on vacation next week. So we're recording two in one night, but well worth it because Shannon has been, according to you guys, such an upgrade to the channel. So we're happy that you guys are enjoying her editing. And it's not a bad thing for us because we're going to get this done tonight. We're starting this. It's midnight when we're starting. So if you see me fall asleep in the middle of the episode, I'm all right.

I'm still here with you. So today or tonight for us, I mean, it's midnight, midnight 06. So technically it's a new day. But today we're going to pick up where we left off last week with the discovery of the bodies of the two girls who had been missing since July 13th, 2012. 10-year-old Lyric Morrissey and her cousin, 8-year-old Elizabeth Collins. The remains of these two girls were found in Seven Bridges Wildlife Park, a 125-acre wildlife area near the town of Redland in northeastern Iowa. It's a very isolated area meant for hunting, fishing, kayaking, and other outdoor activities, but reportedly it was also a place that may have been sometimes used for people who were up to no good. In a 2015 article I found in the Des Moines Register, it says, Since 2010, Bremer County Sheriff's deputies have written at least 28 incident reports at Seven Bridges Wildlife Area,

ranging from a dumped methamphetamine lab to people tearing up the park on four-wheelers, said Sheriff Dan Pickett. Reports increased after the bodies of Lyric Cook Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins were found in 2012, a sign that people were paying more attention to suspicious activity, Pickett said. In July 2013, a trapper reported finding a knife stuck in a tree near the site where the bodies were found. Pickett said. Last September, deputies took another report of a knife found stuck in a tree. End quote. So it's not a completely deserted place, right? Like people will go there, but it's also not like a public park where people are going and bringing their kids and just chilling for the day. It's not really like a chill recreational area.

If you're there, you're hunting, you're fishing, you're kayaking, you're doing some sort of outdoor activity, or your intentions are probably nefarious. Seven Bridges isn't a place you happen upon it sits at a dead end of a gravel road there were no street signs leading me to it deer stood in the road as I came upon the park one small sign acknowledged the park as a public hunting area Myers Lake has the inescapable din of traffic noise. At seven bridges, one's company is the bugs which swarmed my camera. It's a miserable, humid, muddy place to be in the summer. Yeah, so that video kind of confirms what I was picking up from what you had said before the clip. It does seem like a place that was frequented by a lot of people, but also whoever the offender is and how they got their

bodies out to that location, they had some level of familiarity with it, probably personal familiarity where they've been there before, whether it was for recreational use or because of some of the more things that we talked about from a criminal perspective where they had a drug problem or they were out there doing things that they shouldn't be doing. And that was a place they knew that they could go and maybe not seen by law enforcement while there. This is someone who didn't just pick this out of a map and just drive there. They had known the location and knew that if they went there, they would be able to dispose of the bodies without being caught or without being seen.

And you would only know that if you'd been there before. And maybe without the bodies being discovered for a while. Right away. Yeah, exactly. So they knew it wasn't a place that was highly populated. And again, that's not a guess. They had to have known that from past experience. investigations. So you're buying yourself time, you're giving yourself distance, and what are you buying yourself time for to get away, basically, or to go back to your life as if nothing happened. So that even if, because, you know, imagine they took these two girls,

did they bring them to this Seven Bridges wildlife area that same day? Did they hold them someplace for a few days or a few hours? But if you don't know exactly when those girls ended up there, you don't have an alibi for when their bodies were left there, right? So anybody can just kind of keep going on with their life. And by the time they're found, which at this point is five months later, it's going to be really hard to pinpoint who was acting strangely at that time or who missed work or things like that. Yeah. And I know you had hit on it quickly in episode one, part one, I should say, where statistically speaking, it's not likely that when a child is abducted, that they're held at a location for extended period of time, it creates too much risk,

but it does happen from time to time. And based on the amount of time that passed between the the abduction and the discovery of their bodies is it possible maybe this episode y'all you'll completely cancel that out but is it possible they could have been held somewhere for a few days a few weeks a few months yeah it's possible I do think that the body's condition decomposition the in the the autopsy reports may discredit that theory, especially we talked about it in Heyman Lee's case, stomach contents usually come into effect if it's still in a condition where animal activity hasn't taken over the bodies to an extent where you can no longer determine those types of things. But yeah, it's all something that could be considered, especially as you

mentioned a couple of minutes ago, they could have been there for months and not been discovered. They could have been dropped there only a few weeks before that, depending on weather condition, things like that. But I will say with decomposition being a factor that usually suggests that they've been there for a while, the level of that decomposition will ultimately tell the true story. How long? Well, the tough thing about this case is, you know,

obviously autopsies were done on Elizabeth and Lyric, but to this day, the details of those autopsies were never revealed. Nothing really has been revealed. And we did also see this with the Delphi case. And I think that a lot of it has to do with, you know, wanting to have that guilt knowledge. But also these are young girls. So you don't really want to reveal the details, the horrific details to the public because they're young girls and there's a level of privacy there. And there's a level of just, you know, maybe it's a taboo thing and you just don't want to talk about it that much. We still don't know to this day, even with Delphi. And there's so much publicity around that case and so many people speculating about that much. We still don't know to this day, even with Delphi, and there's so much publicity around that case and so many people speculating about that case, we still don't know

the exact details. And that's the case with Elizabeth and Lyric. And that means we don't know exactly where the bodies were found in this area. We don't know whether they were buried or concealed, what state they were in, if they were dressed, undressed, if there was signs of sexual assault, if there was items or evidence found at the scene. We don't even know how Elizabeth and Lyric were killed or how long it's believed they were deceased or if they were in that place for a very long time or if they had been moved. We don't know any of that. Yeah, I think it's for the reasons you

just said. Obviously, out of respect for the families and also guilt knowledge, you would assume that the only people that are going to know information about that crime scene where the bodies were eventually found would be individuals who were directly involved with this crime. And so you want to keep as much of that to yourself so that if you do get a potential suspect and they say something maybe accidentally or on purpose, you're able to write that up in a report where a judge or jury finds it convincing as well. Because if there's any leak of that information and the defense can prove it then anything they might have said that could link them to the case will be thrown out because

anybody would have known about it so that is probably a big factor for it from an investigatory standpoint um but yeah as you mentioned if it was a horrific death and they were able to tell um the cause of death with which i'm assuming again i shouldn't assume it all depends on decomposition right but even with decomposition you can usually tell based on where the decomposition is the worst, what type of injuries they sustained. And in that situation, they would be able to determine cause of death. And that's not something that they want everyone being aware of for multiple reasons. So it doesn't even seem like the parents of Elizabeth and Lyric know how they died. But it is kind of debatable because we'll hear later in an interview with Elizabeth's mother, Heather, she mentions she does not know how the girls died.

But she also mentioned that although she did not go to the funeral home and view the bodies her sister misty did and so it's possible that misty may have gotten some insight on the cause of death from from being at the funeral home and seeing the bodies but also it seems like they they weren't told by law enforcement specifically how how these two girls were killed there's a few things we can garner that the parents may have been told just through like interviews because the parents were doing a lot of interviews and they would sort of say things now and then,

which you would kind of catch and you'd be like, wait, are you thinking that you have some inside information? For instance, we don't know if Elizabeth and Lyric were already dead when they were brought to seven bridges or if this is where the murder took place but elizabeth's father drew he said something in an interview that makes it seem as if he at least believes they were alive when they got to the nature park i can't imagine how scared they were when they were taken there i don't like to go there alone. Of course, no. It's pretty, it's out there. If you were yelling, no one would hear. It's pretty sad to think. It's one of those things where it could be two things, right?

It could be because if you're out there and you want to do something, as he mentioned, nobody would be able to hear you. It could also be because nobody's around and no one would see or hear you. That's where you would dump a body after the fact. I think ultimately with this case, two big factors that they're going to have to determine. One is predation as far as if there's how much animal activity occurred out there on the bodies, and then also insect activity. Pat, in other cases where we've brought in entomologists to analyze the different types of insect activity on the body, specifically fly larvae, things of that nature where they can determine the age of the maggots on the body, which will give you an indication of how long the body has been there. That's a big factor in these cases. I know even in 1988 for a cold case that I did, I mentioned her all the time, Michelle Norris, that was a big factor in it.

So that'll be a factor here. Kaylee Anthony. Kaylee Anthony as well. Yep. When you have predation and bad decomposition, you have to rely on things like that where the skin tissues have been, for lack of a better way to describe it, been eaten by insects or animals. And that's really the only way to determine an approximate time of death. Yeah. to determine an approximate time of death. Yeah, but it does seem like Drew maybe, I don't know if he would necessarily be assuming

they went to the park when they were still alive, but maybe it's something he heard from law enforcement which led him to believe that. And also in a recent interview, Drew said something else about him hoping there would be a break in this case because of new DNA technology, which then leads you to wonder, well, did the police recover DNA from the scene? Because why would you think that there might be a break in the case with new DNA technology if there wasn't DNA to test? So once again, little things that we sort of have to pick up as we go along from different interviews, because law enforcement was very secretive about this.

I mean, for six months, all the public knew was that Elizabeth and Lyric were no longer alive. And a mourning period began, which was difficult for many people because there were a good amount of community members who were holding out hope that the girls were still alive somewhere. Hundreds of people attended memorial services for each girl and the two cousins were laid to rest in Waterloo Memorial Park Cemetery. Six months later, a lead investigator in the kidnapping and murder case released a new tip hoping to gain more information that might lead to whoever had done this. Apparently, there had been three tips from three separate people who had told police that they'd seen a white SUV parked on Arbitus Avenue. That's a street that connected to the bike trail where Lyric and Elizabeth's bikes had been found.

Two of the witnesses had come forward within days of the girls going missing. The third witness came forward months later. Two of the witnesses said that they saw the white SUV parked between two bike trail signs. The other witness said they saw the SUV parked near the woods on the east side of Myers Lake, just a few hundred feet from where the bikes were found. But all three witnesses claim they saw this white SUV between the hours of 11.30 a.m. and 12.30 p.m. on July 13, 2012. The vehicle itself was described as a large, clunky, older model white SUV. One witness said it looked like an older model boxy Suburban. I've also heard it referred to as like a Ford Bronco.

But I have a huge question, which is if two of these witnesses came forward early on within days of the girls disappearing while the girls were still missing, why didn't the police release the description of this SUV at that point so that more people could come forward if they'd seen the same vehicle that day? And maybe those people would have more information like a plate number or a partial plate number, maybe even a description of the driver, some defect on that SUV that would make it distinguishable from another white SUV. Like, why didn't that happen? I don't have an answer. I completely agree with you. There's nothing else I can say. I have the same questions. You would think, oh, you don't want to arise too much suspicion or attention to it because it may be nothing. Well, who cares?

Put it out there. And then if you're able to rule the SUV out, make another announcement saying that suspect vehicle is no longer a suspect vehicle and that it's been cleared. Like they did with the white van guy who saw himself on TV getting gas and he was like, it's me. And then they were like, okay, he's not a suspect. Like, why didn't they do it? The two people saw it right by the lake where these girls' bikes were found. Yeah. That's a problem. That's a problem. Yeah. Like you said, if there was defects on the vehicle, something that was specific to that vehicle that could have helped them identify it, you would think they would get that out there immediately. But for some reason they chose not to to maybe they didn't want the guy to like change his vehicle

or or something like that but i mean yeah or it could be just that whoever took the report it could have been just a patrolman or two different patrolmen who took the narrative put it in their notebook wrote it in a little incident report and it wasn't seen by the detectives in time which that's a problem, which happens because not one detective taking all these statements, right? It's police officers, patrolmen going around and not all patrolmen are created equal. Not all detectives are created equal where you could have someone who's, you know, 20 year veteran phoning it in and you have another somebody else who just got on the job and they're not connecting the dots and not relaying

it to the right people. And sometimes information slips through the cracks. And then years later, you have this come up not to go back to Delphi. I don't want to go off the path here too much, but Richard Allen was someone who was interviewed almost immediately after this happened. He was someone who's been on the radar from day one. So I know we don't want to focus on the negatives, but it was a question I asked myself where this information that was reevaluated when they looked at the witness statements again is when Richard Allen was someone that they decided to check into again, but there really wasn't anything new that happened now that put him on the radar. It was just a reinvestigation of the initial facts where someone within that

the agency or outside agency said hey what about this guy we should look into him more so that does give me a little pause where i'm like okay well this isn't some random person we just found out about we knew about him all along and this could have been the case here where if they had put this out initially maybe they would have been able to identify this person at minimum. And even if it does, there's nothing to connect them at that point, maybe down the road there is. Dude, I don't get the Richard Allen thing, man. Just thinking about it. Like he was there. He admitted to being there that day. He looks like bridge guy. Sounds like bridge guy. Sounds like bridge guy. Okay. And then he was interviewed more than once and gave conflicting statements. So why does it take anybody coming in years later and being like,

we should look at this Richard Allen guy again, because he was like one of the three people that was there. This is ludicrous. I agree. I'm hoping there's more that comes out with that, to be honest with you. I'm hoping there's more that says, oh, okay, I understand why you went back to him. But just on the surface, it doesn't look great. And again, I'm appreciative that someone took the time to go back and look into this guy if it turns out to be him, but it does raise some questions for me, for sure. Yeah. And imagine in this case, right, with the Evansdale murders, if they'd had that white SUV report, which I mean, I think they did. They didn't say like it got lost or anything, but. Right. They wouldn't.

Well, I mean, it looks better than just being like we had this information six months ago and we just didn't tell anybody, even though it could have like found the person. there was any like not you know not in the park obviously but like convenience stores gas stations stuff like that on the same strip like to that the entrance to the park is seen if there's like white suvs of that description driving by grab their plate numbers go and run them etc etc like you could have found the person you could have found the person even if it was too late you could have had that person in custody and that person would be facing justice to this day. And instead, 10 years later, you have an unsolved double murder of two little girls. And that's absolutely ridiculous. And nothing has ever really been said about this white SUV again, even though I think it's important. And reportedly, law enforcement believes there's a high probability that it's connected to the Evansdale murders. So just a very odd an odd thing i i agree

i don't i don't have any excuse for it without being there and knowing what was happening inside that station i don't understand the rationale behind not releasing that information if it was learned almost immediately because for all we know at that point i need to put this out there but uh lyric and elizabeth could have still been alive in that van. Yeah. And like, why are we not talking? As far as we see, as far as we know, this is the only like solid piece of evidence that they really have. And to just not utilize it is, I think, unforgivable. But let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay, so at this point, police seem to accept that this was probably a stranger abduction and they made sure to let us all know how incredibly rare that was, especially

one that happened in broad daylight. In fact, the FBI claimed they could only identify a handful of similar abductions, not in Iowa, but like in general. And that was 15, including Lyric and Elizabeth. And these 15 had happened between 1976 and 2012. Investigators on the case were also very clear that they believed whoever had done this lived locally, and like you already stated, Derek, was familiar with both the Lake Myers area as well as the Seven Bridges area. During a February 2015 press conference at Evansdale City Hall, Police Chief Kent Smock said, quote, I think you will all agree that Seven Bridges is extremely remote. We have no doubt that the person or persons responsible with this crime are very familiar with Seven Bridges. Yeah, I'm not going to keep doing it but this case is

unbelievably similar to the delphi case and it does appear based on the specifics so far as we've covered them this is a local person this is not a transient this is not someone who was just driving along the highway and saw these two girls this is someone who has a familiarity with both locations and would have a reason for being in the area where these girls were riding their bikes so i don't think that's like deep investigative work it's it's kind of common sense but very similar to delphi you have to wonder then why is it 10 years later right and no suspects no person of interest no arrests i mean what did we say on delphi too before richard we we said it that this was a local person this had to be someone who was familiar with the Munon Bridge and all that stuff.

So, or is it Monon Bridge? I always get that wrong, but. Monon, but yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's like the pharmacist in Delphi. Like, that's crazy to me. Yeah. So more than likely, again, this individual or individuals who did this is known to community

members. The difference being in this one, you don't have a video of the person, which Delphi just drives me insane thinking about the fact that this guy was right there and nobody ever said, hey, that looks like Richard if it is him. But with this case, you really don't have anything other than a white van.

But I will say even that in this local community, I'm sure there's a few of them. There's probably not hundreds of beat up white vans or suvs that probably could narrow it down to a certain degree well we also have to keep in mind that like evansdale is so small so like somebody could be from outside of evansdale and been stalking the girls in that that area but be from maybe more like the seven bridges area you know what i mean like be familiar with that area. So maybe not local to the girls,

but this is an area, and I'm going to kind of talk about it a little bit more, but it's like a small town surrounded by other small towns that all sort of like merge together to make like one big like community. You know what I mean? But this seems like an area that's off the path. Like this person would have to have had something going on there, whether it was work, they could have been a construction person, someone, an occupation that put them in that area.

They weren't just driving around those streets looking for girls to abduct. They were there for a purpose. So even though, like you said, they might be from one of the outside towns, something brought them to that location on more than one occasion, because if they had seen the girls on one day, now, granted, you could say they were there that one specific day to carry out a certain job. It could be, like I said, a handyman to someone doing some plumbing or something, and they saw them and they took advantage of it. Or if it was someone who had seen them before, because they were riding bikes constantly,

that just reaffirms the fact that they had business there or they knew they had friends it or if it was someone who had seen them before because they were riding bikes constantly that just reaffirms the fact that they had business there or they knew fr they had friends or family there and they were familiar with the area and had seen these girls on multiple occasions and learned that when they were riding around they were by themselves so either way this person had a reason for being in this specific area because as you this wasn't the the monon high bridge where it's like public people it's a tourist attraction this was a side street these kids are riding their bikes now if we're to believe that they weren't abducted in that location and it was closer to the to the lake that changes the game a little bit but i feel like we don't feel

that i don't i we don't believe that i don't think they were abducted at the lake i think it was somewhere before and the more i hear from you the more i believe that whatever happened to them happened before they got anywhere close to the lake and the bikes were just dropped there to maybe throw uh investigators off because even the purse and the cell phone it doesn't i feel like if there was something that happened there, someone would have heard or seen it. It seems like those items were just kind of thrown there. I think they were staged, honestly, because if you think that much work went into it. Yeah. If you look at the bikes, like it looks like you threw the purse and the phone over the fence, like you were trying to hide them. Like you didn't want them to be in full view on the path, but why wouldn't you do that to the bikes as well why would you leave the bikes in the middle of the

path in like full view if you're gonna hide the phone and the purse it looked like somebody wanted the police or whoever to think like the girls got off their bikes here left them in the past and walked towards the lake right and maybe they're hoping hey maybe they don't drain the lake and they just assume they're in there or maybe they do drain the lake and it takes them three to four days and while they're doing that, they're not looking for me. Yeah, it's true. No, definitely. It doesn't seem like they were at the lake and they were doing the bike path when they had to be back home. It seems like that was a result of whatever the offender decided to do. Yeah. And that's kind of why I brought up in the

first part of this series, the John Deere and the meatpacking factory because, like I said, it seemed like there's these couple of businesses that sort of are really like heavy in the employment in's say and sees these little girls in the afternoon riding their bikes now they know exactly where to find them so I would hope that the police checked that meat packing plant and John Deere to see if anybody there drove a white van or you know like whatever like any kind of like do you guys have alibis for this day or when did you punch out for lunch just things like that especially when you run out of leads. Like you said, when we were talking about Hayman Lee in the last case, and you were like, oh, I'd be going to the library and checking the library, even though it's not connected to the school. At that point, when you don't have anything else to do, you got to start thinking outside of the box, even though I don't think checking those kinds of things is technically

thinking outside the box. Yeah, it's kind of what you should be doing naturally. Also checking all possible. I mean, it's 2012, so I don't think Ring was out then, but I'm sure someone in the comments will hit me with it. But looking for security cameras, doorbell cameras, although this doesn't sound like an area where a lot of people are investing in security cameras, but you should still be checking because you never know.

Well, they had that security camera in that business that showed Elizabeth and Lyrick something, anything, right? Along their route to see if there's anything. So on Thursday, August 21st, 2014, the Evansdale police unveiled a web page that would act as a source of information related to the unsolved case. Now, unfortunately, that website is now defunct, but it originally did include an offender profile which had been developed by the FBI. The offender profile included, in part, that 1. The offender is familiar with both Myers Lake and Seven Bridges Wildlife Park. Two, the suspect chose Seven Bridges Park because they were familiar with it and knew it was secluded. Three, the offender blends in and may be part of

the Evansdale community or part of the surrounding communities. Because like I was trying to say earlier, Evansdale and Waterloo, they sort of blend in with each other as does Cedar Falls, which is on the other side of the Cedar River from Evansdale and Waterloo. So all of these three smaller communities kind of mesh together to form a larger one. For instance, like the day that the girls went missing, Elizabeth's mother was running errands in Cedar Falls. So everything is like right around the corner.

It's a short drive away from everything else. And people live in one community and work in another, et cetera. So even though Evansdale itself had just a small population of 4,500 people, in reality, over 100,000 people lived in that immediate area, which now makes things a little bit more complicated. Definitely expands the scope of the investigation. That's, yeah, absolutely. For sure. But like you said, there's a reason this person's in Evansdale. They hopefully aren't just prowling for little girls to take. So that should have been checked into. Yeah, no doubt. I mean, this place clearly you can see it's not this main road that they're riding their bikes on where someone just happened to see them.

They were in that area. And it's one of two things. They were in that area for work or friends and they had been watching them a few days and they'd seen him multiple times. I would say actually it was probably someone who might have just been passing through because they were working or saw someone. I don't think they probably saw them multiple days, but saw them alone, looked around, didn't see anybody trailing them, didn't see anybody sitting outside. And the minute they saw them for the first time, they acted. Kind of like Athena Strand where you just, this individual saw her, saw an opportunity, took advantage of it. Yeah, and it's terrifying to think about. Here's another question I have for you, because the FBI offender profile goes on to say that the suspect likely used quiet coercion to gain the girl's compliance when he wanted them to leave the Myers Lake area.

And it's possible he used a ruse or even threats of violence. So would quiet coercion be kind of like what happened in Delphi where you've got a knife or a gun and like, hey, come with me or else? Yep. It's exactly what it means. And that's exactly what I think happened. It's an area where this individual could have a knife

or a gun in their vehicle. And it's just like, hey, what are you guys up to? Hey, can you give me directions real quick, girls? Can you tell me how I'm lost? How do I get to this? And as soon as they walk over, because they're unsuspecting and they get close enough, he shows them what he has in his possession and they freeze. And they're going to do whatever he tells them to do at that point, including get in the truck. Sad to say, but it's the truth. It's the same way that whoever, even if it's not Richard Allen, it's the same way that

individual got them down the hill. And I said it before we had, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who said it, but we didn't even know about the audio where he says, I have a gun. They kept that as guilt knowledge. No, where the girl said he has a gun. He has a gun. I apologize. And we knew we knew it we said it this guy had a knife or a gun in his possession because to get to feel confident enough to go up to two girls instead of just one because usually we just choose one easier to

Control and to think that one of these he couldn't kill them both at the same time So one of them is standing by while this is occurring. And there's a reason that happens. It's this fear from whatever they're in possession of that if they try to run, they're going to use that on them. So it's absolutely horrific. And I feel like this case is probably very, very similar to Libby and Abby's case as well in that sense. Or there's more than one person. That is absolutely an option. And in that case, it changes the game. It doesn't usually happen

like that if it's this in the moment type thing, because now you have to hope that your counterpart is on board for what you want to do. And usually this, hopefully the sick fuck is only one of them and they're not two in the same van, although you are the company you keep. So maybe. But yeah, if it's two people, that changes the game. But if you're putting me in a corner and saying, hey, what do you think? Probably one person and the scumbag used a knife or gun to gain control of the two girls. So the offender profile goes on to say that the suspect may have been experiencing stress related or legal troubles, spousal problems, unemployment difficulties, financial strain, mental health issues in July of 2012. And the suspect may avoid discussing the case or they may have shown interest in the case, but either way, they likely

followed the media for developments in the case. They also said the offender may have attempted to abduct other children or adults in the past. And finally, following the disappearance, the suspect may have altered his or her physical appearance, such as changing hairstyle and facial hair. They said the offender's vehicle may also have been altered with a new paint job or new upholstery. And I think this is pretty basic for an offender profile for something like this. They usually say the same thing, like, you know, usually going through some sort of like stress-related issue, financial problems, marital problems, things like that. Those are always triggers for sick individuals who will attack and prey on little girls or little children.

It was reported that investigators believed there was only one person involved with the abductions and the murders, but Drew Collins, Elizabeth's father, has expressed the opposite opinion recently in a 2022 interview with the Gazette. Are they sure that it's one person? No. No. I don't know if you know the statistics for a single person kidnapping and murdering two people is super, super rare. Like, they can't even do statistics on it because it's so rare. Because it's only happened since they've been keeping track in 68.

I think it's only happened 17 times. Yeah, I won't argue statistics with him, but I think it's more common than we know because a lot of these cases go unsolved, right? So a lot of these cases where multiple kids are abducted, we don't know who killed them. So we really don't know the true statistics because they're not all solved. But I'll, just based on what he said i'll i'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say yeah it's more likely where you have multiple victims that you have multiple offenders but i do think there are many occasions as well that maybe we're not aware of where the individual is able to gain control by using some type of instrument whether it's a gun a knife could be a blunt object. It could be a lot of things, especially when you're talking about girls that are this young.

I mean, it's not going to take much to traumatize them and to freeze them up because this isn't something they experience often. Well, I think he means like the statistics of two people being like taken at once. Oh, I thought he meant two people being taken by one person. I could have misinterpreted yeah so i think he did mean that but how would you know that's what i'm saying based on what they have which is probably a limited you know pull to pull from yes you have that small sample size sure uh but i also think that just an opinion when you have more than one offender you're more

likely to solve the case and because there's always someone who is usually the primary offender and you have that second person who has some guilt over it and ends up coming forward and I always say that if more than one person knows it's no longer a secret so you have those cracks in the armor and I mean it's one of those things where I always know when I have more than one person who's involved in a crime, pretty easily you can identify the weak link and that's the person you go after. So if you only have one person and they're solid and they know that nobody else is aware of what they did, they have this level of confidence that no one's going to contradict what they're saying. And so I feel like you probably have more solved cases involving multiple individuals because it's actually a bad thing to have more than one person

because you have that weak link. So when it's the one-off, the one person doing it, that's why you have these serial killers that are their lone offenders. They go years without being caught because no one else is aware of what they're doing. So I think you're right too, that it's hard to find a partner in crime for these kinds of things.

Like these are sick proclivities. It's not just like, you know, your typical rabble rousing, go out and get drunk, you know, act crazy. Like this is something that you really have to have, I think, a sickness in you. And it's going to be tough to find your counterpart where you can just go out and do these things. And the other person is not gonna be like you know what is wrong with you right I mean there is one instance I can think of you've got a they are his serial killers Henry Lee Lucas and then Otis I forget his last name because it's like 1246 in the morning but you guys will know what I'm talking about they did do that they rode together, cross country, and picked up victims together.

But I do think that's the exception and not the rule. I agree. No, I completely agree with you. And how do you even broach a topic like that where you're sitting there with your buddy like, hey. You into this? Yeah. I thought about the, it's a very, it could go one or two ways. It's either going to be someone who's going to be into it or they're going to knock your teeth out the minute you say it.

So it's not something I think people are publicly- I think they met in prison, honestly. See, that would make more sense, right? Or online, something like that, where you have this anonymity behind you where you can talk about these things and then maybe eventually meet up. But it doesn't seem like that's what we have here. So I agree with law enforcement in the sense of this is probably a lone operator who had something with him where he was able to control the two girls. And you wouldn't have to control them for a long time, right? All you have to do is control them long enough to get them into the vehicle, and then you can use what you have to restrain them.

And that's it. It's game over. They don't know it yet, but that's the end of it. So that's something. It only takes a few minutes. And that's honestly why these kinds of people go after little kids, because they know they're not going to fight back. They know that these kids have been taught to obey adults. So they use that to their advantage and they know they have a better chance,

whether it's one or two, you have a better chance of getting away with this because you've got a vulnerable individual or individuals in your grasp and they don't know what to do and they don't feel like they have the confidence to tell you no or to fight back. So that is a big issue. And that kind of leads me, what Drew said in that interview clip, that's going to lead me into the where are they now section. And right after this next break, we're going to discuss what Heather and Drew and Misty and Dan have been up to since losing their daughters. But we'll be right back. So I believe that a big reason why Drew seems so knowledgeable about abductions and statistics and things like that, and why he believes more than one person is involved is because he and

his wife Heather really became part of the parents of missing children community in the aftermath of Elizabeth's kidnapping and death. In October of 2012, Heather and Drew spoke at the 10th Preventing Abuse Conference in Des Moines about child abductions and how they're connected to underground pornography networks and drug cartels. Tony Nassif, the person who organized the conference, had been following the story of Johnny Gosch and his abduction, which had also happened in broad daylight in 1982. Johnny's mother, Noreen Gosch, was also speaking at the conference, and Noreen has made claims that her son was kidnapped by a

child pornography ring, and that Johnny was actually able to visit her in 1997 for a short while before he had to return to these people. He was with another boy. Have you heard of Johnny Gash's case? No, I have not. He was one of the first kids on milk cartons, and he actually was in Iowa as well. And I know that a lot of people are going to say that this sounds like conspiracy theory and like pornography rings and stuff. But trust me, I've actually spoken to Noreen. Gosh, I've spoken to Johnny's mother a couple years back when I was considering covering this case, Johnny's case, and I read a book called A Franklin Cover-Up. And if anybody doesn't believe that there's something to what Noreen says, you should definitely read that book because there is something to it. And I understand why people believe that there's these groups of individuals, high-powered individuals, who basically steal children and use them for their own sick needs. We know that there is something like that. It's called sex trafficking. It happens all the time. And it's just, this is a little bit more obvious and more really connected to like,

well, I don't want to get too deep into it, but read the Franklin cover-up if you're interested. I actually considered doing the case. I talked to Noreen. I was doing some digging, and I got some threatening phone calls, and I decided to pull back from that. So at the end of the day, I do think that there is something to it. That's all I'll say. So Tony Nassif, he had actually read Noreen's book. She wrote a book about everything that she believed, and he began doing his own research, which he claims opened his eyes to a lot of what was really happening. And he said, quote,

when I read it, I said, my gosh, she's writing about the things I'm just discovering. She discovered human trafficking 25 years before it had a name. And she was saying things back then that people thought were a little far-fetched, but in actuality, she was right on target because I confirmed what she was saying all along, that there's organized pedophile networks, not just

lone pedophile abductors, end quote. So Heather and Drew, they also became close to Noreen and other parents who had experienced the loss of a child through abduction and murder, and they actually worked together to attempt to make some changes. For instance, in December of 2012, they met with the governor of Iowa, Terry Branstad, to attempt to convince him to reinstate the death penalty when it came to child murder. Drew Collins said, quote, there's things that have to be changed in our government and in how these people are prosecuted and the amount of time they get. Anyone that murders a child, they don't deserve to be with us anymore. That's just unacceptable. As a state and as a nation, we need to start protecting our children, end quote. And I agree with him. I don't understand

why you would ever murder a child and be able to ever see the light of day again. It doesn't make any sense to me, but yet it happens. It does happen. Now, before Elizabeth was taken, Heather and Drew had a good marriage. And after she was gone, they sort of teamed up together. They tried to make something good out of what had happened to her. They tried to make a difference for other parents, but the pressure became too much and Heather and Drew separated in 2016. Drew said, quote, how I dealt with it a lot of times probably wasn't good for a marriage. I just kind of blocked myself out and would just hide, end quote. Drew said that his other three children, his son Kelly and his daughters Amber and Kelly, they also lost their childhoods. He said he didn't feel comfortable to allow them to travel freely around,

to go to friends' houses. You know, everyone that they were in contact with had to be vetted and checked. They couldn't ride their bikes without an adult present. He said that even if they wanted to just leave the house to go out to the car and get something they'd forgotten in the car that was in the driveway, he would walk them the few feet to the car and then back into the house. And I mean, we were kind of, we're talking about something similar in part one of this. We feel that way now. I can't imagine how we would feel if one of our children was taken. We probably would never take our eyes off our other children. Yeah, that's true. Or not take our eyes off the first one. But I, yeah, no, I get what you're saying. I get the example you're making. Yeah, if something like that happened, you'd two relapses, one on October 2nd, which

would have been Lyric's 11th birthday, and one on December 5th, the day the girls' bodies were found. It was reported that along with continuing to use meth, Dan also began to manufacture the drug again, and a year after Lyric's disappearance, he would finally hear his fate. At his sentencing hearing, Dan Morrissey told the judge, My problem at that time was not drugs. My problem was grief. I really still can't accept it. End quote.

But Judge David Stout was not having it, replying, Since you were released from custody after your daughter's unfortunate event, you were utilizing other women you knew to go to stores to buy or steal pseudoephedrine so you could manufacture methamphetamine. The fact that your child was in your home when you were arrested on these events show that you don't use very good judgment concerning yourself as a parent to subject them to those conditions, to those situations, to those individuals, and that behavior is certainly not good parenting, end quote. Couldn't agree more. Got nothing else to say. Couldn't agree

more. You didn't learn your lesson the first time. And I think it's an excuse because he was doing things like this before the incident and he's still doing it after. So I don't have a lot of sympathy for him. Yeah, it's tough because you think you'd want to protect your remaining children even more so. Like Elizabeth's father, Drew, kind of became like super overprotective, but it seemed like Dan kind of went the other way. Yep. And those are the types of people where, I hate to say it, but at that point, you need outside agencies to step in and take control of the situation. Because at minimum, the kids aren't in a good situation, a good environment. Yeah. And I mean, get this, because he entered a plea agreement on three

separate drug charges and Dan Morrissey was sentenced to 90 years in prison to be served at the Fort Dodge Correctional Facility. Now, apparently in Iowa, they have like this thing where you get like three days for every day served or something, but basically he has to serve at least one third of his sentence to be considered for parole. Dan Morrissey claims that being in prison initially was tough. He said he would have constant panic attacks and he felt very angry towards child predators who were imprisoned with him. It was then that he returned to his faith and to God.

He asked for help and he read the Bible. And as he read the Bible, he could hear Lyric's voice calling out to him saying, Daddy, it was in 2013 that he reached a turning point with the Des Moines Register printing, quote, he meditated alone for hours and listed everything about her that he was thankful for, that she was conceived, that she was healthy, that she was saved by Jesus Christ. The last year she was alive that I had her was a blessing, Morrissey said. That immediately turned everything from feeling negative emotions to letting things go. Morrissey said that he knows that people judge him for his addiction and the crimes he's committed, end quote. I don't like that. I don't like when people say like, oh, well, she was saved by Jesus Christ or like this was God's will. Like,

no, if she'd been protected properly, this wouldn't have happened. And, you know, you can't just pull this stuff out of your ass to make yourself feel less guilty about it. But I understand. He says he doesn't want to like feel this weight. He wants to turn the negative into a positive because he feels bad and it's heavy on him and it makes him miserable. So, you know, in a way it's kind of denial, but I don't know.

That's just my opinion on it. I don't want to go too deep with it, but I will say, and I'm going to probably get some shit for this, but these are the times where I do question even my own faith. And I'm not like a super religious person, but I do ask myself if there's a God or any higher being that you believe in, why would you let something like this happen to these two little girls? What lesson can be learned from that? What they experienced before their demise? What is the lesson in that that there's demons among among us yeah we already knew that god so i don't get it and you say oh well they were angels yeah but there's easier ways to go so i those are things where for me personally i do questions

certain things that i believe in because i don't see the i don't see the lesson in it but i'm sure in the comments i'll have people coming at me for that one. But that, that this is something where I agree with you and I don't understand how this could be viewed in any way, shape or form. I know he wasn't saying what happened to him was a blessing, but having them for this limited time was a blessing. But yet the way they were taken from you, I don't see how you, I don't see how you put a positive spin on it, but I guess if he's being genuine, more power to him. Right. Cause I don't,'re right. Who would do that? What kind of God would even do that? Yeah, it's very tough to grapple with. As for Dan Morrissey's ex-wife, Misty, she has started over. After Lyric disappeared, Misty was extremely distraught.

She wanted to numb the pain, so she began using again, and this would lead to a downward spiral that would lead to her arrest in 2013, where she would be sentenced to two 10 years in prison. She was released after only a year, and she began to pick up the pieces of her life. Misty left Evansdale. She settled in another small town, St. Lucas, where she began working on a chicken farm, met a man, and had three more children. She admits that her life will never be normal, but she is clean now and looking forward to putting all the negative emotions behind her. Misty claims that she knows that people still judge her and look at her with suspicion, but she loved her daughter and she regrets her past

actions. She's recently also talked about her own theories about what happened to her daughter and to her niece. You know, you talked about the police and the investigators saying it's likely someone who knew the region. It could even be someone you know, someone who maybe is close to your family and that everyone you met was a suspect that you were um do you do you feel like you know who did this now um no it it's that's a heavy thing to put on someone that you know um if you don't really have hard facts it's really a and I know what it feels like to have someone put a speculation on me,

you know, and which is it mine to own. And so I never have been one to guess at that kind of thing. I've heard all sorts of different theories and I've heard everybody's, you know, thoughts or whatever. I personally believe if it wasn't someone on the actual police force or somebody in authority and it's being covered up then the person's probably dead and there's so many factors too I mean so like we don't know

if they were raped or molested or if it was a pedophile issue if it was then that person probably would have reoffendedended by now. If it wasn't that, then, you know, how does it get covered up for this long in such a small area? You know, I'm just, there's just a lot, there's more questions than there really are answers. And, you know, rightfully so, the police don't give you any information. So speculation just really does nothing and so there's just a long time ago I had to give up the the desire or the need to guess at any of this what do you wish people understood about you and about lyric at this point I I don't want people to understand me or her. I don't. It's not necessary.

What I do want people to understand is there is a world of criminal, pedophilic people out there that are destroying our planet. planet and it goes through Hollywood through the government and it is not talked about enough it is not dealt with enough it is not investigated enough and if anybody's going to do anything that would really be the place to start and and start conversations you know start doing something about you know if there was any justice for Lyric and Elizabeth, it would be in getting to the source of where this stuff starts from. There's a lot there. I mean, I do definitely agree with some of the things she said as far as, you know, could it be someone within law enforcement or government? And that's why there was never any leads on this. Who am I to say that's not possible? But then she says,

you know, if this is some, this is probably someone, if it's not law enforcement that it would, or someone in government, the person's probably dead. That's not necessarily true. They could still be out there. And she said the reasoning was because they would have reoffended. Well, we don't know if they've reoffended or not. We've never caught them. So, but she's not an expert. That's not her field of expertise. She's just giving her opinions as a as a mother. I do think what she said at the end there is important. We do have a bunch of sick individuals in this country and it's hard to catch them. kind of set up systems where they're using different types of computer software and sites and code words where they're allowed to connect with other people just like them. And it is a national thing. And it's not just this low level thing where it's people who are having economic issues. It's like, as you said earlier, some of these people are people in high profile positions and have power and money. And this goes not only for this country this entire world So it is a big issue, but it's not talked about enough, and I will say I was sitting here thinking about it It's like I know there was some problems with it But shows like catch a predator where I know there was some issues as far as entrapment

And it was a guy who killed himself on the show, but shows like that I really honestly and I am former law enforcement, so I i'm biased but the guy that killed himself on the show yeah there was a guy who killed himself where he was he was caught he was someone who was in the judicial system they didn't get him at the time but then he went back to his house they had the house surrounded and he committed suicide was he a predator he was a predator yeah he was he was someone who was like having these internet exchanges with a young or someone who he believed was underage. But I think the main problem here. Yeah, you know, I am with you.

But it's one of those things where I think there was more of an entrapment thing where it was ruled to be a form of entrapment where they're setting them up. And we will save that conversation for a different day. But personally, I felt like it was a deterrent because it started, it had this national attention where you had these sick fucks that were less willing to go on the internet and do these types of things. Cause they didn't want to have Chris Hansen walking in on them. Honestly, I feel like they, it wasn't stopping them completely,

but they had to be more careful. So if the, it's not only about catching them, it's about deterring them from doing it. And I just feel like we need more of that, more of those types of agencies, individuals, shows, whatever it might be. But even these YouTube things where I see these, I don't love when people are doing it privately, but they're setting up their own stings and they're catching these guys

in parking lots and they're confronting them and throwing it on YouTube. I'm clapping for anyone who can't see it. I love it. It's great. I don't really care what happens to them after that. I'm clapping for anyone who can't see it. I love it. It's great. I don't really care what happens to them after that. I don't want any- Be careful.

Be careful when you're doing that, obviously. Yeah, be super careful. And I'm not condoning violence or anything like that, but I have no issue with you calling out someone where you have documentation proving that they believe they're talking to an underage female or an underage male, and they're meeting up with them in a parking lot

and they got condoms in their pocket. I got no issue with that. So yeah, it's a bigger conversation. And as you said, you tried to talk about it with a previous case and you started getting calls and stuff like that. So it is a big, big thing. It's not isolated to just economically deprived communities. It's everywhere.

Yeah, and honestly, I don't want to deter these people. I want to catch every single one because you can only deter them for so long, right. The threat of Chris Hansen walking into your living room is only going to be so much of a deterrent because it's a compulsion that they cannot ignore for very long. And that's the problem at the end of the day. What do you think about her tone of voice in this interview, specifically the part where she said, you know, we don't know if they were raped or sexually abused. And then she's very conversational about it and kind of like laughed afterwards. Like, is this a coping mechanism or is this odd? Nope.

I think it's completely genuine i think she's just she's gone she's not the same person she was she's broken and i feel like after a while you're just so broken and i've never personally experienced this but it's even when the girl said you know what do you want people to think about you she's like i don't i don't care yeah i don't care. She seems really over it. She's like, I don't give a shit. I'm ready to go and see my kid again one day, hopefully, you know, in the after. She's over it.

She's moved on as best as she could. And that now she's kind of desensitized everything. Cause I'm sure any scenario that we could talk about, she has already thought about it. So I don't personally understand the mindset she's in, but on some level I can relate where it's like there's certain things where at first you cared about them. And then now you're like, hey, it is what it is. And I feel like that's the point she's at with this case.

She knows that her daughter is not coming home. They've already found her. And there's been no information given to her from the people that are supposed to solve the case So she's at the point and she passively said it there words at this point She's like it could be a police cover-up for all we know because there's been such a lack of information in the case Well, there's um, there's rumors online that it's like a police cover-up the captain Ken smock He was fired in 2015 and they said like I'm just telling you what they said online I couldn't find any hard proof But this is she's reading this stuff too by the way because they're talking about her and so she's reading this stuff and she's said like i'm just telling you what they said online i couldn't find any hard proof but this

is she's reading this stuff too by the way because they're talking about her and so she's reading this stuff and she's seeing it uh ken smock was the police chief he was like fired in 2015 the guy who found the bikes or claimed he drove past the bike so that dude was allegedly the best man at Ken Smock's wedding. And then the hunters who found the bodies in Seven Bridges Park, they were not actually hunters. They were like a group of family. They were like a family, like a family group. And the father worked for this dude. That's all the allegations out there. So that's where I think the police cover-up thing comes in because there's rumors and gossip going around online. I will say I did look into it, but I couldn't find anything substantial. I couldn't find anything solid.

Of course, I looked into it. There was also allegations that Elizabeth's parents, Drew and Heather, were friends with like a pedophile or something or like, you know, somebody who, somebody named Buzz. But like, I looked into that too. And it seemed that he did have some charges like early on, but he had cleaned up his act. I don't know. Either way, nothing was substantial and nothing could be connected to anything solid. So it's not even an actual theory I can explore because there's nothing there to explore. But yeah, there's a bunch of rumors online. Yeah. It seems like law enforcement has been pretty tight lipped about this one. And there's been less leaks than even with Delphi

because with Delphi, we did have some leaks where potentially we do know the cause and manner of death. So even this one was less. And there's a purpose behind that. We may not agree with it. There's a purpose behind it. And if they do find someone, and this case is only 10 years old, I know for some that's a long time, but in the grand scheme of cold cases, that's not that long. So you do have a situation where they're hopefully going to release more information at some point if they don't have a lead soon. But at this point, they feel it's beneficial to make sure that the only people who know about what actually happened as far as what they do have is law enforcement officials. Yeah. Well, I actually want to also talk about Heather, Elizabeth's mother and Misty's sister and what she said this year when they did the 10 year anniversary of Elizabeth and Lyric's death.

But let's take a quick break first and then we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. So understandably, after Elizabeth and Lyric were killed, it caused issues between sisters, Misty and Heather. And although Misty claims they have reconnected, Heather recently did an interview with ABC Channel 2

expressing a continued suspicion towards her sister. We talked about how close you all were really as a family, how close the girls were in kind of linking you with your sister and her family. Then the frustration of when this horrible thing happened and in your gut you knew it was something awful had happened. And you talked about your frustration with Misty when she wasn't there. What is that relationship like now? So my relationship with Misty is... I met with her for the first time in years last week we were

out at the grave and spoke with her that was the first time in probably four years four and a half I would go in like spurts try to talk to her and that kind of stuff. I don't wanna be around the chaos. I'm never done drugs. I can't be in part of that. I can't be in that lifestyle. That's not me.

So then I would have to step back out. And then I would see her doing really well, so I would step back in. But it never lasted very long, so then back out. And then this last time I was just, I'm done. I just can't do it. It's very, it's really hard on me. It's very trying.

Now she has three little nieces, you know, three little, I have three little nieces. She has three daughters and younger ones and I, you know, I don't even know them. I just found out what the last one's name was, the last kid she had, which I never thought would happen, but it's just how it is. I just, I just hope and pray all the time that her and her husband Dan, they're divorced now, but her and Dan didn't have anything to do with it. I'm already devastated as it is. I don't know how much more devastated I could be to know that they were involved in any way. Or because of their drug use.

Because of their drug use, they were involved. I know that Misty went and saw the body. Kent Smock went and picked up Elizabeth and took her to Paternwood's funeral home. Misty went to a different funeral home, but she picked her up and took her there. She saw Larry's body. I chose not to, Drew chose not to. I don't think I would ever get that image out of my face,

out of my mind, just like, you know, when you see a dead animal on the side of the road who's picking at it? Other animals. There's no way with a dead body, you know. It's the same way with a dead body. So we just chose not to, and we chose not to know how they were killed. Because us, we only want the killer and the people that worked on

the case to know. We don't want anybody else to know. We felt that's just, that would be like the safest way. Like it couldn't get leaked out, you know? And then we, you know, I just don't know. And then, so we had Elizabeth buried, her body buried. Misty, which was very, very upsetting still, as she had her body cremated. Which to me, like, Elizabeth can still, if there's some test or something like that, they can still do tests on Elizabeth they can on Lyric her body's cremated um I tried talking to Misty about that like begging her not to have that and she didn't listen so when you know when she did something like that, to me is like, what are you hiding?

Like, what are you hiding? Like, you know, science keeps growing. You know, you see it all the time in cases. Like, what are you hiding? You want her body cremated, like, then that like also gives me more suspicion, like, why would you have her body cremated? It's still to say, it just, it baffles me. I don't get it. Does that fear that there's a connection

that live in your gut? So just things like, you know, her body cremated, her, um, their resistance to talk, you know. They didn't care if they were using drugs. That was the least from DCI. They don't care. They just wanted to talk about their daughter and niece, you know. Like, that's all. They wanted to talk about that day,

just questions, normal questions that they ask. You know, they interrogate you. They want you to do a, they want you to be polygraphed. They want you, they want your phones, they want your records, they want, you know, any device you have. If you have a computer, they want it, you know any you know device you have if you have a computer they want it you know all those things that you know you start putting together it's hard not to

think like you know how much a part do they have of this you know not like them taking them but like you know what part of the drugs had somebody do this you know so is that your theory do you have a theory of what and, um, that someone just knew that they were going to be there and that Misty and Dan maybe owed somebody money and that they, you know, Elizabeth just happened to be there. Wrong time. They took them. Um, I think maybe it was just to be a scare tactic and then it was bigger than they thought it would be, you know, and, you know, they were in deep trouble, you know, more than what they thought they would be, you know, if they just took them and said, you know, if they knew, you know, well, yeah, if this person money, I'll just say, hey, you know, but I think it might've been too big at that time, you know, because I mean, it went out pretty fast. I mean, as soon as, you know, I went to the police, you know,

it was out, you know, it was Facebook nonstop, and anything we could do to get that out there, just, I don't know, I think it might have just been bigger than what the people or person took them, I say people because two kids, it's usually only you know one person one kid or even two people one kid to take two kids you know I say it's pretty hard for one person so she's had a lot of things there what do you what do you make of all of that that was a long clip I will say I can understand the strain the idea that your sister was involved in this or her activities before this led to it. It'd be hard to get over that. It seems like it caused a lot of stress on the whole family. I'm sure on Misty's side of things where she's looking at her relatives and

she can see how they're judging her. She probably wanted to remove herself from the situation if she wasn't somehow involved and move on with her life. I do think that she brought up an interesting point about the decision to cremate. I don't know what the rationale would be behind that. I think she was right on when she said science is constantly evolving and you don't know what they're going to be able to tell later by preserving that body as best as you can. At that point, you want your daughter to be able to tell a story if there's a story to tell. As far as the last half of it where she's speculating as far as what might have happened this is no disrespect to her but as she pointed out she knows nothing about the case she's chosen

to know nothing about the case not even to go see the body so it's purely speculative and you guys listening or watching right now could come to some conclusions as well, just based on what you've heard tonight. I don't necessarily agree with her, but she's entitled to her opinion. To me, I don't know if that's how this would have went down. I feel like this person may have been someone who had seen the girls at some point or seen Lyric at some point because of their relationship with Misty or Dan, maybe. But I also think it's equally plausible that this was just some random scumbag who was driving around because they were working that day or had some business in that area where there was a friend or family member. They saw the girls alone. They had something on them that they could use to control them. And that's what they did. I really hope that the parents

weren't directly involved. And if you forced me to choose, I would say that they probably weren't. If anything, it was a residual effect of the company they kept, the people they were around, or maybe one of these individuals who were there for Dan or Misty happened to see Lyric and Elizabeth might've been collateral damage, but it wasn't to take them for ransom or anything like that. Dan and Misty didn't have any money. They didn't have anything to offer. So what's,

what are you going to get out of taking them? Even if they owed you money, if anything, this was something where they saw Lyric before, had a feeling about her and were in the area and saw her again. And maybe that might be how they were able to get Lyric to come over to them. If they did, Hey Lyric, remember me?

How are you guys doing? And as soon as they get close, then the element of surprise takes place. But again, it's all speculative. It means no different than what was just said by Misty's sister. So we can all have our opinions and we're all entitled to it. Yeah, so I feel similarly. I think if it was somebody who was connected to Misty or Dan, they probably don't know about it. Right.

It wouldn't be something that they were aware of or set up. Yeah. I don't think they're directly involved. Yeah. That would be – although, you know, like I will admit that once again, I said this in in part one people on meth have done worse things i know for a fact that there have been many cases where people have given their children over to pedophiles in exchange for meth it's happened that's a fact however i will say if that did happen i would think that the police would have put those pieces together

by now because it would be somebody that Misty and Dan would be in contact with. There would be signs of that in their devices, on their phones, things like that. They would be able to put that together. So I will say I don't think that they were involved, at least not knowingly. But I do feel bad because I understand why Heather would feel that way. Because when you're faced with the unknowable, you have to find a boogeyman. You have to find somebody to point the finger at. You have to find something solid to grab onto. And the random person, the stranger, the faceless person who could be giving you your medicine at the pharmacy or walking by you at the grocery store, that's good enough because you can't place blame with with somebody you don't know with a stranger you

have to have something a little bit more concrete and this happens in family dynamics anyways without even this this horrible situation it all always happens so it's it's unfortunate i don't know how close heather and misty were before this but if they were close and this this has completely come between them forever when they should have been turning to each other for strength and comfort. It's just very sad that they had to sort of go through this alone because they not only both lost their spouses, but they lost their sisters. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they weren't close just by what she was saying as far as like, I don't do drugs. So I would assume the conversations internally amongst the family are, what are you doing? You have kids, you know, you shouldn't be doing this. Why are you conducting yourself this way? And then this happens. And I'm sure part of her is like, you know, this wouldn't have happened if you had been doing the right things. Yeah. And I mean, I also can't blame her for that either, because drugs destroy families. Drugs destroy relationships. You know, you get stolen from,

you get lied to enough times, you start to not trust that person and you start to feel that this is somebody that you cannot be vulnerable with and you can't be safe with. So I completely understand that. But yeah, maybe they were close at one point, but you know. So let's move on to the theories and the potential suspects. A little less than a year after Elizabeth and Lyric vanished in broad daylight, two more young girls vanished in Iowa. 15-year-old Kathleen Shepard and 12-year-old Desi Hughes. The two girls were walking home from school together on May 20, 2013, in Dayton, Iowa, when they were approached by convicted sex offender Michael Klunder. Desi was able to escape,

but Kathleen's body was later found in the Des Moines River near Boone, Iowa. Now, in this case, we do have the unique opportunity to hear the methods that a man like Clunder uses to abduct young girls because Desi got away. She survived and she was able to talk about what happened. And she said that she and Kathleen were walking home. Clunder pulled over in his pickup truck and asked if they wanted to make some extra money by mowing his lawn. The girls told him that they would have to ask their parents and he told them to climb into his truck. He'd give them a ride to somewhere where they could call their parents and ask. It was May 20th. Desi and her friend Kathleen Shepard were trapped inside this red pickup truck driven by registered sex offender Michael Klunder.

He was taking them to a hog confinement where he worked. I don't know. I just kept thinking this wasn't right. Klunder got Kathleen out of his truckUCK AND DESI, JUST 12 YEARS OLD, TOOK A CHANCE AND MADE HER ESCAPE. I HAD TO RUN THROUGH A LOT OF WOODS AND CROSS THE FIELDS AND GO THROUGH MORE.

I COULDN'T REALLY SEE ANY BUILDINGS. SHE MADE IT TO THE NEAREST FARM HOUSE, BUT WASN'T CERTAIN SHE WAS SAFE. I ACTUALLY WAS KIND OF AFRAID BECAUSE I THOUGHT HE WOULD BE NEAR HIS HOUSE.

SO I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TOAR HIS HOUSE. SO I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE HIS RELATIVES OR SOMETHING. SO I REALLY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO. I HAD TO TAKE A CHANCE TO FIND OUT. THE GUTSY MOVE PAID OFF. A STRANGER TOOK HER IN. I ACTUALLY THOUGHT THAT WHEN

SHE CALLED ME, I THOUGHT THAT I MISUNDERSTOOD HER. I THOUGHT I WAS OVERREACTING FOR NO REASON. AND WHEN I GOT THERE, I REALIZED SHE WAS SERIOUS AND THAT WAS ABOUT WHEN IT HIT ME WHEN I FIRST GOT THERE. HOW OFTEN DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

EVERY DAY. IT'S THE ONLY THING ON MY MIND. HER GOOD FRIEND HAS BEEN LAID TO REST. SHE WEARS A K AROUND HER NECK AND TODAY STOOD ALONE UNDER A TOWERING EVERGREEN IN DAYTON. IT'S ALL COVERED IN PURPLE, THE

TREE, A GIANT RIBBON, FLOWERS AND BALLOONS, KATHLEEN'S FAVORITE COLOR. PEOPLE HERE ARE NOT TOO EXCITED. THEY'RE JUST NOT IN THEIR FAVORITE COLOR. THEY'RE JUST NOT IN THEIR

FAVORITE COLOR. THEY'RE JUST NOT IN THEIR FAVOR ALL COVERED IN PURPLE, THE TREE, A GIANT RIBBON, FLOWERS AND BALLOONS, KATHLYN'S FAVORITE COLOR. PEOPLE HERE MOURN FOR KATHLYN AND KNOW THAT DESI'S MERE EXISTENCE IS A MIRACLE. I TELL HER EVERY DAY, I'M SO GLAD SHE'S HERE.

EVERY DAY I TELL HER, SHE'S SO SICK OF HEARING IT, BUT I DON'T CARE. I TOLD HER TODAY, I WAS GLAD SHE'S HERE. PRETTY COOL, YOU GET A LOT OF PEOPLE NOW THAT YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW OR DON'T REMEMBER JUST

COMING UP AND HUGGING YOU. SHE COULD HAND. PRETTY COOL. YEAH. Pretty cool, you get a lot of people now that you don't even know or don't remember just coming up and hugging you and shaking hands. Pretty cool. Yeah, so many people call you a hero and rightly so. Yeah, and I really hate it. You hate that? Being called a hero, being called brave, I hate it. I can't stand it. Really? I don't feel like I am, so I'd really like to just be called by my name.

Why don't you feel like you are? SO I REALLY LIKE TO JUST BE CALLED BY MY NAME. WHY DON'T YOU FEEL LIKE YOU ARE? BECAUSE I'M NOT BRAVE. I RAN. THAT'S COWARDLY. AND I DON'T FEEL LIKE A HERO BECAUSE I COULDN'T SAVE HER. SHE DID THE BEST SHE COULD DO. WE'D STILL BE LOOKING FOR BOTH OF THEM, I BELIEVE. AND WE WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW WHO LEFT WHEN WE WERE AT OUR HOUSE.

THOUGHTS OF THAT DAY FILL NEARLY EVERY MOMENT AND HAUNT HER AT NIGHT. I DON'T SLEEP UNTIL, LIKE, 3 IN THE MORNING. I CAN'T SLEEP. AND WHEN I DO't sleep you know I do sleep it's pretty crappy you know when she said that's cowardly I ran I know that broke my heart I know yeah she said me she's back right she's with us but she never came back you know her life has changed forever she'll never be the same because of that incident so he you know she survived but mentally I couldn't imagine at that young age going through forever. She'll never be the same because of that incident. So, you know, she survived, but mentally, I couldn't imagine at that young age going through something like that, losing your

friend and feeling this guilt of, I got out, she didn't. Yeah, I'm sure that's something that's going to weigh on her for the rest of her life. Terrible. Absolutely terrible, which is why you and I are pretty open about our opinions when it comes to pedophiles and people like that and what we think should happen to them. We don't run from it. Clip it. Kill them all. If it's proven that that's what they do, they should not be in a prison anywhere. If they do go to prison, whatever happens to them in there is not enough. If they do go to prison, don't let them out. If they do go to prison, they shouldn't be there very long, if you know what I mean.

Well, listen, then you're going to love to hear what happened with Klunder. Oh, please. Please tell me. Yeah. Well, before I do that, I'm going to let you know that it was later revealed through Kaplan's parents that before approaching Kaplan and Desi, Klunder had approached Kaplan's younger sister, 12-year-old Jessica, but Jessica ignored him and just kept walking. Kathleen's mother, Denise, said, quote, there's no reason why this man should have been out to

begin with. I was floored to learn that somebody with the history of his past crimes was even able to be out and walking around, end quote. So at the age of 42, Klunder had already kidnapped a 21-year-old woman who eventually managed to escape in 1991, and later he also abducted two three-year-old girls who were later found alive in a garbage bin, although one of the girls had been choked. He was released from prison in 2011 after serving less than half of a 41-year sentence for those two kidnapping cases, and the Department of Corrections spokesperson Fred Scaletta said that officials declined to seek Klunder's confinement for treatment when his prison sentence expired because they didn't have enough evidence for a court to declare him a sexually violent predator, and Klunder had

successfully completed a sex offender treatment program and did not show any signs that he could potentially be a further problem. Even though looking back in his history, we can see that Klunder was sentenced for attempted burglary and assault in 1989 when he was just 18, and he was ordered by a judge to receive sex offender treatment during a prison term of up to five years, which he only served two years of, meaning he was released in 1991, the same year he abducted that 21-year-old woman. Isn't that repetitive behavior enough to determine that there will probably be further problems down the road with Michael Klunder? The fact that he did it, and then he got out,

and then he did it again the same year he got out. Just ridiculous. But now we have Michael Klunder, you know, taking these two girls, these two young girls in broad daylight. Kind of the same thing that happened with Elizabeth and Lyric in the same state, even though we keep hearing that it's so, so rare. prayer and after clunder killed kathlyn by stabbing her he also took his own life which pisses me off to no end why kill her then if you're just going to kill yourself why would you kill her and not let her go home to her parents if you know that you're not going to be caught anyways because you're not going to be alive what a dick it. It's a coward. He knows what's coming and he's a coward. That's what these people are. That's why they prey on young, innocent children, because they're not going to approach you or me because they're losers and they're cowards. And that's what they do. They go after people that they can overpower and that they can control. People who are still developing

as far as their mental capacity is concerned, because they're not going to do that to you or me because they're losers and they don't have any place on this planet. So when they finally do what they want to do and they know they're going to have to face the consequences, especially because one of the two girls got away, he knows what's coming. He's too much of a coward to face his actions and handle them like an adult. I won't even say like a man. And so he kills himself because that's the cowardly move. That's why a lot of these mass shooters do what they do. They conduct themselves in a certain way and then they kill themselves because they don't have the balls to actually go to prison or go to a court system and answer for what they did. Well, on that note, let's take a quick break, our last break, and then we'll come back

and talk about if Michael Klunder is possibly responsible for what happened in Evansdale. Okay, we're back. So police claim that they do not believe Michael Klunder was responsible for the abduction and murder of Lyric and Elizabeth. Police Chief Ken Smock claimed a specific team of investigators had been tasked with looking into Klunder as a suspect, and they were able to determine that he was not in Evansdale on July 13, 2012. Smock said, quote, we never closed the door fully, but we're very comfortable saying we're no longer interested in looking at him, end quote. I don't know how they could just write him off so quickly because it's such a similar MO,

but even to the place he brought them, he brought them to this out of the way pig farm area, and it's such a similar MO to just have them say,, no, we were pretty sure he wasn't in the area on that day. Like, it's just such a tough pill to swallow. But we're not running the investigation and we can't push them in that direction any further. So Chief Ken Smock also encouraged people to keep calling in tips, saying by no means did law enforcement have all of the puzzle pieces, and the murders were still being investigated actively. On May 4, 2018, a potential breakthrough in the case was uncovered when a 36-year-old woman named Teresa Catherine Girlman, for reasons unknown, put herself and her eight-year-old son Henry in the path of an oncoming train. While detectives were investigating these tragic deaths, which they later ruled a murder-suicide, they became aware that Teresa had been a client at a place called Genesis Development, a non-profit that provided support to people with disabilities.

Now, allegedly, Teresa had told her community support specialist that she, quote, might have inside knowledge on a previous crime, end quote. The community support specialist that she, quote, might have inside knowledge on a previous crime, end quote. The community support specialist relayed this information to law enforcement when she was questioned, and she told them that if they searched through Teresa's home, they might find evidence or information about a crime. And when asked specifically which crime, she responded that it had something to do with the two Evansdale girls who'd been found dead in the woods. Now, initially, I couldn't find any more information on this, but apparently Teresa alleged that she had a letter from or about two men who were involved in what had happened to Lyric and Elizabeth.

So detectives got a search warrant. They went to Teresa's home to search for anything connected to the murder suicide or to the Evansdale murders, but nothing new was uncovered, at least not that we know of. And Mike Krapf, a special agent in charge with the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation, reported that agents had talked to Teresa before her death, and apparently she had gone to them and claimed she had the same information about Elizabeth and Lyric, but agents vetted her information with negative results, which I think means that they probably put two and two together. Maybe she wasn't mentally right. I mean, she put herself and her son in the path of an oncoming train. So probably this person isn't super mentally healthy, right? Yeah, I don't, I mean, there's no disrespect to her, but I do agree with you.

There are people who have actual mental disorders. They have things going on that we can't explain. I mean, there's science behind it, but ultimately they're hearing and seeing things that aren't really there. And it could have been a situation where she hears about this case. It's part of her sickness where she starts to develop this theory, this idea in her head that she's part of something bigger, where she thinks she knows the individuals who are involved and there's more to it. But to your point, what you just said, all that being the case,

this woman drove in front of a train with her son. She stood. She stood in front. I'm sorry. She stood in front of him. So she obviously wasn't in in front. I'm sorry. She stood in front of him. So it's, yeah, she obviously wasn't in the right state of mind. Uh, I, you could have people out there who say, yeah, she did this because of this conspiracy, this coverup. And she knew that they were coming for her. So she took, so she killed her son, her eight year old son, Henry. Yeah. It doesn't really, doesn't it, you know, maybe you see that in the movies. I'm sure it does happen from time to time. I don't think that's the case here um for two girls out of evansdale iowa but not only that

i mean it's it's it's not impossible nothing's impossible we're not discounting anything of course we're not sitting here saying yeah with 100 certainty it's not true but just looking at it agents did go speak to her they obviously tried to vet what she was saying to them. Then they then went to her house after the fact and also searched the house and did not find anything tangible, at least that we know of that, uh, had a link in the case that maybe helped push the ball forward. So is it possible she had something of course, but just based on what we're hearing in the state of mind that she appeared to have been in, it's probably more likely that due to her mental disorder, she was going through something where she was seeing or hearing something that may not have existed. Now, if you if you wanted to argue against that and if you wanted to kind of probe further, you could say, hey, maybe she she did.

She was aware of something. She wasn't aware of how high up it went. She went to the police. They covered it up. She figured out that they were going to come for her and not only that, take her son, because we're talking about a pedophile ring. So she thought that they would be better off dead. But there is surveillance footage of this woman waiting for the train to come, stepping onto the tracks and pulling her son, Henry, onto the tracks with her. So she could have just been paranoid and having delusions

and thinking that was what was happening. And it doesn't have to be a reality, but we're open to either or. Yeah. As a patrolman, I went to a lot of calls where we were to respond to someone who was having mental health issues and you walk into the house and they're telling us that there's bugs in the smoke alarms and in the microwave and that people are listening to them. And as you're sitting there talking to them, other than what they're saying, being able to be factually disproven, as they're speaking to me, if I didn't know better, I'd believe them because they're not bullshitting you. They actually believe that. So there are many instances where- Well, do you look for bugs to make sure there's no bugs?

I mean, I can tell you, this is a true story. I've had situations where I'm like, man, we can pull down the smoke alarm. Look, there's nothing in there. Oh, see, they got rid of that one. They must've got rid of that one. Come over here. And they watch us start ripping down walls. And you can tell pretty quickly that there's something going on there. And then as they start to talk more, you or pull up medical history for you or whatever, you can see that this, this is something that's been going on for a while. But yeah, when you're talking to them face to face, if I didn't know any better, I would believe them that there was someone listening in on their conversations and that they were part of this bigger thing that I wasn't aware of and that they were, my eyes were covered to the truth and it happens and maybe I'm the idiot and they, you know, they

really were, but now I'm on surveillance. Or at least some of them, at least some of them. I mean, Stephanie, do you, I mean, you believe your house is bugged for sure? No, I sweep for bugs all the time. There's no way my house is bugged. Okay. All right. But like, if you look at somebody like Simon Monjack and Brittany Murphy,phy like before they died they believed that the government was like tapping their phones they believed that they were

being monitored things like that and then they died mysteriously like you know you look at stuff like that and you're like holy shit like is there something to this but i get what you're saying like they these people are so confident about it they truly believe it to the point where you're like what am i the crazy one here? Like, am I not seeing this? So I get it. And by the way, not making light of the situation. It's a serious thing. Mental health issues are a serious thing.

Just saying going in there as an officer, you do encounter situations where it's very obvious that what they're telling you is not true. And we obviously get them the help they need or get them to the right people that professionals. But in the moment, there is a second where you need or get them to the right people, the professionals. But in the moment, there is a second where you're listening to them and you're like, I've seen this movie before where the dumb cop comes in. He's like, sure, ma'am. Sure, this is happening. And in reality, it is happening.

So I'm like, am I that guy right now? Maybe I should check the smoke alarm. And then the men in black pop in. I'm like, let me check that smoke alarm real quick because imagine I opened it up and boom, there it is. But yeah, in most instances, it turns out to be, if it is, I'm running. I'm out the door. I'm like, Sally, you're on your own. Because by then they know you're on to them because they're listening. I'm stepping out of the room and saying, oh, nope, I didn't see any bugs, ma'am.

I'm leaving. I don't know anything. I'm going to get in my cruiser and go have my donut. See you later. It's crazy. But I mean, we know that people do get bugged. So we're not saying that everybody who believes they're being listened to is not actually being listened to. But I do feel like it's sad.

It's sad if people are paranoid and they think these things are happening and they're not. Because then there's nothing you can do about it. You know, it's just a very sad thing to think about. And I will say one final thought on that. It doesn't have to be this big conspiracy. She might have known an individual in her personal life who had confided in her at some point or told her something. And it's true where it's not like this something she's experiencing in her head.

It was a personal relationship he had with someone where there might have been two individuals in her life that she knew were involved in this based on their behavior during the time when the girls were, you know, initially went missing and then before they were found and then after there could be a lot more to it, but because her mental capacity had decreased over time, she wasn't able to pull that information back up and relay it to police. And she probably got very, very paranoid because she knew it and it just like planted a seed that kept growing out of control. Yeah. So I'm not just sitting here, you know, putting everything off to just her being quote unquote, you know, not in the right state of mind. And she's just delusional. There could be some

truth to what she's saying. And it might not be this big conspiracy thing, just someone she knew. And that's, that's, that's what it is. But unfortunately, she's no longer here. So there's no opportunity to look into that further. Well, moving on to another theory. After all of this is happening, there was a point where a string of attempted child abductions drew serious attention and concern. It started in 2016. Reports were coming in from all over Iowa of a man in a silver car who would pull up next to young girls and try to convince them to get in his car, showing them a $100 bill that he said he would pay them if they could just help him with something. For a long time, police didn't even know where to start because there was a lot of

discrepancies in the description of the man, depending on who they were talking to. And most of the time they were talking to kids, right? So kids don't have the best way of like describing people. So some people would say he was like 30. Some people said he was 50. He had black hair. He had brown hair. So the descriptions were always different. And at one point, the man in the silver car was trying to kidnap young girls one after the other with a report coming in from algona and then less than an hour later another report coming in from humboldt and estimates were that he had tried to entice at least 19 girls into his car in as many as nine different counties and he was successful in sexually abusing at least two of them. Eventually, this man was caught. His name was Jeff Lee Altmaier. He was 58 years old, driving a 2004 Silver Ford Focus, and his victims were

all girls as young as 6 and as old as 13. Jeff Lee Altmaier was originally from Baldwin, New York. He is a military veteran who was honorably discharged from the National Guard after serving between 1977 and 1983. He married a woman named Ginger in California. In 1985, they went on to have two sons together. In 2015, the parents of a 15-year-old girl contacted the Ankeny police, saying they were concerned about their daughter, texting a grown man. And that grown man turned out to be Altmayer. And I also read an article in the man turned out to be Altmayer. And I also read an article in the Des Moines Register about Altmayer and there was a statement made in this article

that I found interesting. It said, quote, it was the stuff of parent nightmares, a stranger swooping in without warning trying to kidnap their children. Experts say it rarely happens. The vast majority of child kidnappings involve a family member or friend known to the child. But here were the rare cases over and over in Iowa, end quote. And I mean, just from what we've talked about, it's true. There does seem to be a lot of like high profile child abductions that have happened in Iowa between Jeff Altmayer and Michael, what was his name? Michael Klunger or whatever. That dude, I mean, it's like insane that all of this is happening in a short period of time all in Iowa when the police keep saying like, this is very rare. This is in most areas, it's pretty rural, it's pretty spread out. And I wonder, no disrespect, but I wonder about the law enforcement capabilities, the amount of training, education, technology experience that goes into these local police departments and their capacity to solve a case

of this magnitude. Because you are, yeah, the FBI can come in after the fact, but really, the critical timeframe is the first 48 to 72 hours. And that's going to be heavily dictated by the local guys, the people that are on the ground every day, what they're familiar with, how they know the area, the people that they associate with in that community that they can go to, to try to find these children as quick as possible after the fact yeah you can have federal agents come in and assist and kind of monday morning quarterback give a profile all that stuff but at that point the damage is done so i i will say that you do have situations where certain areas are more prone to certain type of criminal activity

because the offenders themselves know that the capabilities of law enforcement is lackluster. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I do know that's a fact in certain areas of the country. When I was doing cases for discovery, a lot of the cases we did were in areas where police departments were either financially tight or just from an experience perspective, you have a lot of individuals who are there straight out of high school and they haven't had a lot of experience or training. So crimes like this are more, they're more capable of occurring because the lack of, I don't want to say it, but the lack of quality with the agencies that are designed to protect the individuals within that community.

I'm trying to be nice here, but that's probably as best as I can put it at two o'clock in the morning without being disrespectful. OK, so the question is, could Altmayer have been responsible or involved with what happened to Lyric and Elizabeth. Officials have not confirmed or denied whether they believe he is. Blackhawk County Attorney Brian Williams has said that investigators are aware of Altmaier and the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation agent who filed the criminal complaint in one of Altmaier's cases is the lead agent on the Evansdale murders. And Blackhawk County Sheriff Tony Thompson said he finds it interesting that at least one of Altmayer's crimes involved approaching two girls at once, even though, once again, the authorities have made it a point to comment often about the rarity of double

abductions and the rarity of stranger abductions. I don't know if I think he's good for it because he did sexually assault two girls and they are still alive. So why would he switch up his MO? But especially if he hadn't been caught after he left those two girls alive, I'm not sure. Because you would expect this was going down in 2016, you'd expect that in 2012, why would he kill Elizabeth and Lyric and then go on to sexually abuse more girls and leave them alive? It's not really the same MO, but people have been known to do crazier things. They have been known to change their MOs up. Yeah, you're right. He could have changed it up. Maybe he felt like the circumstances were different where he didn't feel the need to

kill them in the second situation. But I'll also say this, yes, he's good for it or he could be good for it. But I'll also say that every single registered sex offender in that community, in that radius who had some type of business there, whether it was friends, family or work, they also could be good for it. So there's a lot of individuals who have shown themselves to be the monsters that they are, and they're interacting with young kids. And this could have been a situation where they didn't go into it with this plan. But when they saw these two girls alone in a place where they could take advantage of it, they decided to act. It could be that simple. So yeah, they could be someone who is a repeat offender,

or this could be the first time that this person went to the point that they've always thought about going to. And it, it, it, the girls has found them in a, themselves in a situation where just like the previous case, he approaches them. Hey, you want to make some money or I got some food, you know, whatever, candy, whatever they get close enough. Maybe they don't even voluntarily get in the vehicle, but at that point they're so close that the offender uses whatever they have in their possession to control them, to instill fear in them so they don't feel that they have an opportunity to flee.

And it could be just as simple as that. First time offender or repeat offender, I'll leave that up to the FBI profilers to figure that one out. They're way smarter than I am, but that's kind of my take on it. I don't take anybody off the table. Anyone who's committed an act like this before that lives in that immediate area, they could be good for it as well. Well, allegedly they checked the alibis of those people. Of all the sex offenders in that community? Yeah. Within the general, there was like 10 and they checked their alibis. So yeah, that was one of the first things they did. Yeah. Props to them. Then that's obviously something you should be doing. So credit to them on that one. And that just goes to show you, yeah,

maybe it wasn't these guys. So that even leads more to the truth where it could be someone who had never done something like this before, or at least had never been caught for doing it before. They could be someone who's done this multiple times, could be a serial killer, but just never put on anybody's radar.

Kind of like, what's his name from Delphi, right? Yeah, it could be him. Or even you think about Israel Keys and just before they're caught where it's not that there has to be a first, right? And so were Lyric and Elizabeth this person's first? Were they their fifth? We don't know. We don't know who the person is. So how can we really say one way or another who this person is or what they were capable of before this. Exactly. And the FBI profile is sort of very vague. The FBI profile doesn't say, like I said, it's standard FBI profile for something like this. Somebody is kind of

dysfunctional, somebody kind of on the outskirts, somebody who kind of isn't super emotionally well-adjusted, things like that. we get it that that's that's like everybody these days you know so um but yeah we we could see is this a first-time offender do you think they've done something like this before things like that to give a better profile otherwise we're just trying to fit all of these suspects into a very uh obscure sort of cookie cutter we don't even know what shape the cookie cutter is so it's hard to say is it is it is it this guy is it this guy is it this guy and on that note we have the possible delphi connection and this theory isn't something crazy that like you know the web sleuths have come up with but this seems to be a legitimate theory

that even law enforcement has acknowledged looking into and people who support this theory point to the similarities in the the cases they got two young girls abducted at the same time, which, as we know, is not very common. Both sets of girls taken in broad daylight in these outdoor natural spaces that were popular with the locals. But maybe you wouldn't know they were there if you were from out of town. And both sets of these girls' bodies were found in areas that were popular with hunters. There are other similarities that people have pointed out, like both crimes happened on days when the kids were not in school. Both states start with the letter I and end with the letter A. And I believe Iowa and Indiana are the only states that start with I and end with A.

Both states are Native American words. Both cases were unattended children. Both states are Native American words. Both cases were unattended children. Both communities are known to have drug problems. Personally, for me, I think most of these are just coincidences. Obviously, the connection to drugs is not far-fetched, especially if that drug is meth, which we've talked about. This is a substance that literally changes a person beyond recognition. They do things that you wouldn't normally do. You don't care about anything. So it's not hard to believe that there is a possible connection with drugs. But I think there are more differences in the cases than similarities. For instance,

in Delphi, Abby and Libby, they weren't transported anywhere, you know, besides a short distance down the hill. Whereas Lyric and Elizabeth, they were brought from Myers Lake to Seven Bridges. It's quite a distance. I mean, if they were ever at Myers Lake, it's just as likely, we've already discussed this, that the bikes and their items were planted there to throw law enforcement how the scent dogs could have been tracking the scent of Lyric and Elizabeth to the bikes or Elizabeth's purse. It didn't necessarily mean that they were ever there. And even, I forget his name now, but the original chief of police who was on when this kidnapping happened in 2012, he said, it means these items in the bikes were there. It doesn't mean the girls were there. So obviously he understood the possibility that they may not have ever been there. Also, Monon High Bridge was really isolated, as was the Seven Bridges Nature Park, where Lyric and Elizabeth's remains were found. But Myers Lake and Evansdale in general, as we have discussed, were not super isolated areas. So this abduction would have probably happened in a place that, you know, they may have been seen, they may have been spotted.

But I will say that the newly arrested suspect in the Delphi murders, Richard Allen, does look a lot like the sketch of a suspect who was prowling around Iowa in a white van trying to snatch little kids in July of 2012. So the same month that Elizabeth and Lyric were abducted, there was another suspect in a white van basically going around Iowa just trying to grab little kids off the street. And remember, there was a white van or like a white SUV seen near Myers Lake on July 13th when Lyric and Elizabeth went missing. And reportedly, a man in a white SUV seen near Myers Lake on July 13th when Lyric and Elizabeth went missing and reportedly a man in a white van tried to abduct 11-year-old Kirsten Fort in Duburk on

July 20th and then on July 31st two people reportedly a man and a woman in a white Chevy Astro van attempted to snatch a five-year-old boy who was riding his bike. That happened in Cedar Rapids, which is right across the way from Evansdale. And then there were two abduction attempts on July 25th in Story County, Iowa. These two incidents happened within three hours of each other and 30 miles apart. There was a man driving an older model white van who approached an 11-year-old girl who was walking on the street. He asked her if she wanted to get in. The girl ran away to a neighbor's house. That was around 2.45 p.m. And then around 5.30 p.m., a man driving a black van pulled up to a 12-year-old girl and a 10-year-old boy. He told them that he had air conditioning in his van and

he offered them a ride, but both kids ran away. At the time, law enforcement said this string of attempted child abductions could be connected to what had happened in Evansdale. But once again, they never elaborated and no one's ever talked about it again. I don't know. The Delphi suspect, Richard Allen, he's lived in the Delphi community for at least 16 years. He's got no criminal history except for two speeding tickets. There is some support in the statement that it seemed whoever had killed Abby and Libby had some experience with this type of crime before and had potentially gotten away with it before. But if that's the case, Richard Allen has been very lucky or he's very smart because he's never gotten caught until now, obviously. And to pull off two double abductions and two double murders successfully without leaving a trace of yourself behind would be pretty difficult, I think. Like,

let's say Richard Allen was involved with Delphi. He says he's innocent, but let's say he was. And he got out of the Monon High Bridge area without you know anyone seeing him or without anybody questioning him they probably would not have found him I mean we were talking about it how did this guy get questioned and he was seen at the park and still it took this long to even arrest him so if he'd gotten out of there nobody had seen him and he was like I wasn't there what would have happened he would have have been completely, you know, nobody would have known. And the only reason they did know was, how do you think they found him? Because they were looking at license plates and stuff of cars that were parked at the area.

I think they interviewed people that because his car, his vehicle was parked close by. It wasn't in the Monon High Bridge area in that lot, but they had been able to track down people, I think through some surveillance as well, to see who had been in that area. And they went back and tracked him. I felt like they said his vehicle was parked at that area, but it had been backed in almost, so you wouldn't be able to see the plate. I'd have to go back and refresh my memory as far as how they were able to intercept him. But there was clearly something where they had information i know there was one thing in the witness statement where there was two young girls

apparently who had stopped and talked to him and he was rude to them something like that and and he confirmed that that interaction happened there was some something there where two other girls had identified him um having some type of interaction with him so but as far as this case is concerned to bring it back not make it all about delphi, I think it would be pretty easy to go back and see whether or not he was in Iowa at the time when this incident occurred. More than likely, if he is responsible for what happened in Delphi, they're going to be able to confirm or discredit really quickly whether or not he could be responsible for this one or any others in that immediate community or in the surrounding community. looking at some of these other

Instances you talked about where there's possible Abductions attempted abductions completed whatever you want to refer to any one of these individuals could be somehow connected To lyric and Elizabeth in my opinion. How could you rule people out when we don't have a suspect? Yeah, they gave this generic, uh, FBI profile where they're saying this person might be that, but I can tell you, and you guys know this, the FBI profiles aren't always correct. It's a general based on statistical history, who the person, what type of person does this. And the FBI will tell you that they don't know for certain that this person's going to that mold but in general from their own

Research these are the types of individuals who conduct these types of crimes So any of these instances where these abducted abductions were were conducted or attempted in these areas Could they be someone who's tied to lyric and Elizabeth? Of course, but there's really no way to rule it out or confirm it at this point, because from what we know in the public eye, they don't have any potential suspects right now. There's people that they've probably looked into, but there's really been no information, not even like in Delphi, where you have a video or a photo of someone who the police are considering a quote unquote person of interest. They don't even have that right now. So if I, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but if I had to say, there's probably a lot of speculation about around this case internally, but it doesn't seem like they have any concrete evidence that links to one or two specific people. I think they have more than we know. That's why they're keeping everything so like secretive. I

think that they, they probably do have some suspects, but they're not going to publicly name them, of course, because you don't do that when you have a child case because people take it very seriously and very to heart. And you'll have people attacking other people if anybody gets named publicly as a suspect. So that's the issue. But I think they have some suspects in mind. I think it's worth looking into that white van person who was going around in 2012 all over Iowa trying to snatch kids off the street. I don't know why that was never looked into more. But what you probably have, like in Richard Allen's case, there was surveillance. There was stuff that was able to figure out if he was there or not.

In 2012, you didn't have that as much. Right. In this particular case, you definitely had the one video from what we know of. Yeah. But could there be more? Yes. Like I said, there's so many people who have analyzed down the hill. We didn't know, the public didn't know that the girls had said right before that, he's got a gun. I mean, how critical was that piece of evidence where everyone in the web sleuth community would have been analyzing that they purposely kept that part out. Why? Because if

they found someone like this Richard Allen who owned a gun that happened to match the shell case and that they knew about the whole time that was between their bodies, it could be a critical piece of evidence that could help charge someone with these murders. And guess what? That's exactly what happened. Richard Allen has a firearm that matches the caliber of the unspent round at the crime scene. Not only that, ballistics match up with the extraction striations. Why would he keep that gun, man? Why would he keep that gun? Well, I mean, here's the thing about these guns. They're registered to you, right?

You could just say somebody stole it. You could get rid of it and say, like, oh, I haven't had that gun in years. Somebody stole it in 2017. Like, what the heck? And they never released that a gun was used in Delphi. So it's not like you could be like, oh, I knew that the gun was used, so I got rid of it. Like, no, you could just say someone stole it. Like, why would you keep it? Nobody said he bright stephanie nobody says bright and if i have to

guess if he is the guy he probably didn't even remember because of the moment where he extracted he racked around he might have thought he was racking around into the chamber i've had situations where you already got one in there you rack it it to load it, not realizing it was already loaded and you actually shoot a shoot around out. So he's focused on that in tunnel vision. He might not even known that he dropped around. He might've left that crime scene thinking I didn't fire around. I didn't leave around. I'm covered. This gun's good to go. But that again, allegedly if he's the guy, but still that being said, that's why you keep certain pieces of information. So the, to the point you just made, I do believe or I hope that they have more information because in the scheme of cold cases, this one's 10 years old.

So it's not new, but it's not necessarily old. And there's 2012 technology wasn't as good, but it's also not the Stone Age. So they could have evidence that they're not sharing with us. And hopefully, just like when Delphi, there's information that they have that they're not telling us that they're going to be able to link eventually. Or worst case scenario, you have some up and coming investigators or some outside entities that get involved in this case, relook at everything that was done. And just like in Delphi, at least what it looks like on the outside, somebody went back over witness testimony and made a correlation between Richard Allen and what they had at the crime scene. And someone said, hey guys,

maybe we should go back and interview this person again. And sure enough, that started the snowball effect and here we are. So maybe, just maybe, we have something similar occur in this case at least i hope that for for lyric and elizabeth and their family yeah absolutely and guys i know this is actually a pretty popular case with a niche sort of audience so if you know a lot about this case and you're watching on youtube put some info in the comments section the more information you have the more information we share the better chance that you know we understand this case better and hopefully maybe somebody out there is listening and can and can contribute something else and and I do want to see this solved and I think it will be

solved and I think that the police do have quite a bit and you know they're looking into Richard Allen they're also looking into into Altmayer. So who knows, maybe it's one of them and maybe it's somebody we haven't heard about yet, but well, we will, we will find you. Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. And I, it sucks that we're leaving this one with some, a lack of resolution, I guess. But as I said, in part one, I haven't said it too much in part two as parents, but as anybody who cares about someone out there just use it at minimum if you don't have anything to contribute to this specific case and you want to take something from it take this this is not isolated to iowa it's everywhere there's people like this in your

community right now i guarantee you and they may not have acted yet but they could act tomorrow and even if they have acted maybe they haven't been identified so there's i'm not trying to make you paranoid but i'd rather you be on that side of things as opposed to being complacent and have something happen like this you know to you so learn from these cases adjust your own behavior so that hopefully this doesn't happen to you or your kids or someone else that you love because we hate covering these cases but it's a evil. And until we start taking more of a responsibility as far as where we are, who we frequent, the situations we put ourselves in, this is going to continue to happen. And all we can do is live a more structured life,

make sure we're being a little paranoid as Stephanie likes to joke about, but I agree with her. I'm glad she does it. I care about her, care about you guys. I'd we're being a little paranoid as Stephanie likes to joke about but I agree with her I'm glad she does that I care about her care about you guys I'd rather you be a little paranoid then walk around with your headphones in thinking everybody's good and and nobody has any malicious intentions because it's not true and so I hope that's what you guys get out of this at minimum is to learn grow and spread this information others I could tell you the first thing I did after hearing about Athena Strand was, was, was tell Jana. And because Jana sometimes gets in a situation where, you know, she's not paying attention. And I told her about this case

and it absolutely broke her to hear about it. But I'm like, how many times have you seen the Amazon driver outside the house? You know, I'm not saying that they're all bad, but you just, you don't think about it until it happens. So I want her to be aware of these situations because, you know, I don't want that happening to my kids. So that's, that's why we share this information. We learn from it. We educate ourselves.

We become more informed and we become more prepared. Yeah. Be aware. Trust no one. That's my motto. Not a bad way to live. Guys, everyone on that that note stay safe out there and have a good christmas yeah right have a happy holiday what a segue what a segue by the way guys

don't trust anyone but have fun during christmas around the all these public events where all our all of our listeners are going to be walking around holding their children or having those like remember the old phone cords that they used to like leashes that you walk your kids on. It was still a thing. Uh, no, you get judged if you put your kid on the leash.

Yeah. Now it's a judge thing. Okay. Yeah. All right. Noted. Noted. Yeah.

Just, you know, make sure you watch them. You don't have to put them on a leash. Just make sure you watch them. All right. Make sure you know where they are. And,

and that's all. That's, that's all. And if you need any more paranoia, let, call, talk to me. Five minutes. I will make you the most paranoid person you have ever been in your whole entire life. You won't leave your house. I don't. But anyways, guys, have a good Christmas. Have a good holiday. Whatever

holiday you celebrate, celebrate it with love. Celebrate it with your family. Have a great time. And we will see you very, very soon. Later. Bye.