Crime Weekly - S2 Ep59: Caylee Anthony: Deny Until You Die (Part 5)

Episode Date: January 7, 2022

Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Agatha Christie once said that a mothers love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity, it dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path. Most parents feel that their main job is to protect their children from the terrors of the world, and they take this job very seriously, so when we hear of a child that seemingly was tossed to the side and forgotten, we have a very negative and visceral reaction. After all, children are the future, and they deserve a fighting chance. Two year old Caylee Marie Anthony had this chance stolen from her, she had her life stolen from her, and to this day we still don’t understand why. Caylee disappeared on June 16th, 2008, and it would take six months for the world to find out what had happened to her. Her skeletal remains were found inside a laundry bag, discarded in a wooded area. There was evidence that little Caylee’s mouth had been duct taped at the time of her death, and all eyes were on her young mother, Casey Anthony, who had failed to report the toddler missing for over a month, and during this time, Casey was seen at nightclubs and bars, having the time of her life.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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when you buy an 8-foot fiberglass ladder. Shop these deals and more this Father's Day at Lowe's. We help, you save. Valid through 615. While supplies last, selection varies by location. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So I've been sick for 10 days and my voice may sound a little weird and I may sound out of breath sometimes.

Don't take it personal. It's not you. It's me. But we are launching into part five of our Kaylee Anthony series. I know a lot has happened before this and it's going to be hard to kind of keep that all in your head. But just bear with us because we are getting into the meat and potatoes of this case now. Derek, do you have anything you want to add before we launch in? No, I just want to say everyone who signed up for Patreon already, we announced it last week. It's over a thousand people so far. Thank you for supporting the channel. Thanks for supporting our little community.

We really appreciate it. And we're going to keep on working for you. Yeah, we might need it after the couple of days that Derek's had struggling with technical issues. Yeah, you might notice we're not trying to hide it. You might notice as you're watching this on video, there's a slight flicker in it, like every like three to five seconds on both sides. We record remotely to just avoid the technical aspect to it. We use a third-party software to record. And ultimately they've established that there's been some updates recently and it's affected its ability to communicate with Google Chrome. So that's what that little flicker is. It bothers the hell out of me. So I hope it doesn't bother you as much as it's bothering me.

But there's really not much we can do instead risk, you know, besides risking everything and changing a bunch of settings and being in a position where we might not be able to record at all. So these are the unfortunate things to recording remotely, you know, whether it's COVID or distance between Stephanie and I, but this is part of the reason why this week I was talking to Stephanie and saying, Hey, we really got to talk about the idea of, you know, sooner than later doing a in-person studio, which is going to be a lot of work. Won't lie. But, um, it's getting to the point where it might, I hate relying on people and services that we can't control at all. And we try to do everything right for you guys. And this is just one thing that like we have no say over. So it's frustrating, but hopefully it's not too bad for you guys.

It's, you know, we'll do our best to make it as painless as possible. I think they'll fix it soon because Derek did make them aware of it. And, you know, they're like, okay, we're on it. So they might fix it soon. But, you know, there's always that possibility, a very strong possibility that it'll just be another issue next time. And, you know, they're like, OK, we're on it. So they might fix it soon. But, you know, there's always that possibility, a very strong possibility that that it'll just be another issue next time. And, you know, we're going to have to find a more permanent, better solution anyways. So you guys are really helping us out because it's going to take time. It's going to take some money. But I think the end product will be so much better for everyone.

Oh, if we do it in person? Yeah. Oh, my God. If we do it in person, it's god if we do it in person it's gonna be insane we're gonna be insane the problem is we live so far from each other you know that's like you know it's it's not the easiest thing we'd probably have to do bank more episodes when we get together and it's a logistical thing but again that's where things like patron and youtube not demonetizing our videos and all that good stuff comes into play. These sponsors that most of you are super cool about, some of you complain, but that's ultimately what supports

the channel and allows us to buy this equipment, to buy these cameras, to do all these things. So I could talk about this for an hour because it's super frustrating, but thanks to, I won't mention them yet, but thanks to our third party provider for giving me two free hours of recording time for figuring out your problem. I really appreciate it. You guys are awesome. All right. So, yeah, some frustrations over here, but we are pushing forward.

The show must go on and go on. It will. a MySpace post that Cindy Anthony wrote and posted on July 3rd, a post that we honestly believe she intended for her daughter Casey to see because she just created that MySpace account to post that. And that's clearly what she wanted. I'm not sure what type of reaction Cindy was hoping for. Maybe she thought it would kickstart Casey into doing something to prove to her mother that Kaylee was alive and well. But since Kaylee was not alive and well, that isn't what happened. Instead, as soon as Casey saw this MySpace post, she texted her ex-fiance, Jesse Grund, telling him there was something going on with her family and that if Cindy tried to call him, Jesse should say nothing and stay out of it so that Casey could handle it.

The next day was Friday, July 4th. Casey called Jesse and asked him what he was doing for the 4th of July. He said he was spending the day with his family and he asked her to clarify what she had been talking about the day before when she texted him. Casey told him that she didn't want to talk about it at that moment, but she would probably tell him about it later when she was drunk. So for the 4th of July, Casey and some of her friends were going to Thornton Park to party at the home of a man named Will Waters. Casey and Amy Huizenga headed over there early around 3.30 p.m. to help Will decorate his back deck. Will said that Kaylee was not with Casey at all that day, and there was no mention of her until later that evening when they were all sitting outside drinking, and Casey told

Will, quote, you know I have a daughter, right? End quote. Casey told everyone at the party that Kaylee was at SeaWorld with Zanny. During the day, Cindy Anthony texted Casey to see if she and Kaylee wanted to watch fireworks together as a family, which is so sad. Oh, my goodness. Just rereading it now and thinking about it. Cindy just wanted to have Kaylee and Casey come over and they all have, you know, fireworks together. And Casey said, no. Casey said, we're out of town. She said that she and Kaylee were with Jeff and his son, and they were all trying

to be a little family themselves. So pretty much Casey is like, I don't need your little family bonding time. Me and Jeff and his son and my daughter, we're making our own little family here. But she obviously wasn't with Jeff and she wasn't with Kaylee. So around 9 p.m., the whole group that was with Casey, they went to Lake Eola to watch the fireworks, at which point Casey talked to her boyfriend, Tony, who was still in New York visiting with his family. Now, according to Will Waters, Tony told Casey that he didn't know when or if he would be returning to Florida because his father wanted him to stay in New York. And Casey got upset and she asked

Tony why he had brought this up on the phone. And she told him, quote, I don't want to talk about this now. It's not a good time to be talking about negative things while watching fireworks. End quote. Seems like it was never a good time to talk about negative things with Casey, right? Yeah. Very avoidant. This is a person who procrastinates, I think. This is a person who procrastinates the shit out of everything she does because she'd rather do that than face anything head on. Will Waters, he also said that Casey took care of him and his house that night. He said he had gotten a cut on his face while he was outside playing football and she rushed right over with a cold towel and wiped his wound. And then when everyone else was outside playing football, Casey was inside the house sweeping the floor,

cleaning the counters, basically making everything spotless. And Will said he kind of fell for her after this. He said even his friends could see that he was totally a love bug. He said even though this was the first time he had ever met Casey, he loved being around her because she had awesome energy. Will said that he felt Casey was into him as well, even though Amy had told him Casey had a boyfriend. The next morning, Will texted Casey asking if they could hang out again, and they spent the rest of the day together getting food and coffee and going to

Ikea, where Casey told Will that she and her daughter were moving in with Amy. And Casey said she paid so much for Kaylee's nanny, it would only make financial sense to have a friend move in with her who could help her with Kaylee. And this is crazy to me, right? Because she's talking about Kaylee with Will. She's dating Tony, but Tony's in New York and he just told her last night he may not be coming back. Now, Tony does end up coming back very shortly, actually. But Casey's almost kind of like trying to line up another boyfriend before she even breaks up with her first boyfriend, who she claimed that she was in love with.

And she's telling this new guy that she might want to date. You know, yeah, I'm going to move in with my friend Amy and my daughter Kaylee and Amy's going to help me with Kaylee. But we would have to assume at this point that Casey knows that Kaylee is gone. But there were a couple of comments and it was funny. Some of the people who tagged me in it to let me know, they believe it's Casey who's commented on our YouTube videos. But basically, there was this person in there saying like, listen, there's validity to the fact that Kaylee was kidnapped by this woman, Zanata. And this right here to me, it disproves it because all of us, most parents have know a babysitter or nanny or whatever you want to call it at some point but if we're to believe this to be true kaylee's going on multiple days even like weeks where like zanny the nanny has been in possession of her daughter the

entire time and she's told this this story that zanny the nanny had her child to cindy to boyfriends to she's basically if if this is all true Kaylee's been with Zanny the nanny for like weeks weeks now almost a month so and that's that's where that's where the whole lie kind of falls apart for me because if this was something where the day after Casey dropped Kaylee off to Zanny the nanny that day when George you know she told George I'm going to see Zanny the nanny yeah if Kaylee was reported missing the day after you know Kaylee said to George I'm going to see Zanny the nanny. If Kaylee was reported missing the day after Kaylee said to George, I'm going to see Zanny the nanny, right? There was like a 24-hour window where Casey drops her off, goes to pick her up the next day. They're nowhere to be found. Maybe it's an abduction. Maybe it's a kidnapping. But we're talking, like you said,

weeks and weeks where to believe based on what Casey's telling different individuals that Kaylee's been with Zanny the nanny this entire time. That's to me where that whole that theory falls apart. You know, and so I agree with you. Kaylee's long gone by this point, unfortunately. I mean, you could look at it two ways. Like you could look at it and say, oh, you know, we're at the beginning of July here and Casey's still talking about how she's going to move in with Amy and Kaylee and this, this, and that. So she must think that Kaylee is still alive. Or you could look at it the other way and say, you must know by now that your nanny has never given your child back to you. So is this really the conversation that you would be having? Like, oh yeah, me and my daughter are going to move in together when you haven't been able to find her for weeks and you're afraid that the nanny kidnapped

her, which is what you told people later. So either way you look at it, it doesn't add up. Yeah. I believe that she obviously knew Kaylee was gone at this point. And maybe where her rationale was, because again, this is before she met Baez and he told her that this whole abduction plot wasn't going to work. I think in her mind, she was trying to create the narrative that everything was right in the world and she planned on moving in with Amy and her daughter so that eventually when she couldn't hide it anymore, she could go, oh my God, Zanny the nanny took my child. And know, I think, and she was just taken forever to get around to it. It wasn't until much later during trial

when she changed her narrative. That was because someone who's much smarter than her was like, yeah, that's not going to work. And I'm on your side. I'm your defense lawyer. And I'm telling you, it ain't going to work. So I do think that might've been the rationale behind why she was going so in depth with these lies.

You know, we're going to move in and saying that this new guy was going to meet Kaylee at some point. I think it was all a facade. Yeah, because I don't know who this person is in the comments saying that there's like merit to this Zanny the nanny kidnapped Kaylee thing. Like if it is Casey, what up, girl? I can't be. If you're going to talk in our comment section, you're going to need to tell us something real. All right. We're going to need to know you could talk all you want, but I've got questions for you and they're not about Zanny. All right.

So if you're going to keep coming back, let's talk. Let's have a real conversation. But enough with this, because there's absolutely no evidence to support that at all. None. But so so Casey's hanging out with her new potential boyfriend, Will Waters, and then they hang out all day. And then after that, Casey brought her boyfriend, Tony's Jeep, to get a car wash. And then he was flying home from New York or flying back to Florida from New York. So then she drove to pick him up at the airport. But the entire time she's getting his Jeep washed, she's driving to the airport to pick him up.

She's walking into the airport. She's going up the escalator to his gate. She's on the phone with Will. And at one point, Will was like, hey, do you need to get off the phone with me and get into boyfriend mode? And Casey was like, no, no, just keep talking. Like she's on the phone with Will,

basically up until the point that her current boyfriend walks off the plane. Something interesting does happen this evening, though. We've seen a lot from Casey. Lying, stealing, using people, drinking, shopping, putting out feelers for new boyfriends every five minutes, but we haven't really seen a crack in her armor, right? Everyone who saw her or talked to her since the day her daughter went missing, they claimed she was always in a great mood. She was happy. She didn't seem to have anything bothering her. But after she picked Tony up from the airport, they went home and they went to bed. Casey was apparently having a little bit of a rough time. Tony said that he woke up in the middle of the night, but Casey was not in bed next

to him. So he went looking for her and he found her sitting cross-legged with her laptop open and she was crying. And he saw what was on her computer screen. It was a video of Kaylee, her daughter. So this is pretty significant to me. I think, I don't know if she did this often and it was just kind of the first time he saw her do it, or if it was kind of like hitting her, maybe talking about Kaylee at the 4th of July party. Maybe it got her thinking. Maybe she started feeling bad about what happened. But it's definitely, I think, impactful and important. And Tony said this was the first time he noticed Casey having issues at night. But from then on, she would often wake up in a cold sweat. And when he asked her what was

wrong, she said she was having nightmares. It's interesting. It really is interesting because I have a theory I want to throw at you later. And this might contradict it slightly, but it's interesting because of the timing of it. You know, if she had been doing this the whole time and there was just no witnesses who saw it and therefore that's why we're not talking about it. Fine. It's possible. She could be she could have been doing this every single night for all we know since the day of whatever happened to Kaylee. Right.

Which if we had proof of that, I think you could make an argument that maybe it might be an accident. Right. There's you know, there's a feeling of grief there. Right. Yes. But having this happen so much later, if this is the first time it happened or relatively one of the first times this happened and with how much time has passed, I don't know if it would necessarily be grief or more so like, what did I do? Yeah. Or like, I'm afraid I'm about to get in trouble because how much longer can I

hide this? Yeah. You've been hiding for a while. The walls are closing in on you. People are starting to ask questions. Cindy's, your mom is putting out things on, you know, on social media. This is not going to last much longer. You're going to have to eventually start to put into play whatever plan you have. So however you want to view this is, I guess it's in the eyes of the beholder. And I did throw out a theory in one of our earlier episodes about it being an accident. I'm going to throw something out to you later that I haven't talked to you about yet. And it's completely the other end of the spectrum, but this will come into play in that as well. And I have a question because I'm thinking about it now. It's been quite a while. We're July 5th now. Kaylee went missing June 16th. And Cindy Anthony's been worried and she's been posting stuff on MySpace.

Why do you think she never called like any of Casey's friends, like even Jesse Grund or even like Universal Studios, right? Like where Casey allegedly worked, where Jeff allegedly worked, where Juliette Lewis allegedly worked. Why wouldn't Cindy call Universal Studios and say, hey, can I talk to where Juliette Lewis allegedly worked, why wouldn't Cindy call Universal Studios and say, hey, can I talk to this Juliette Lewis person? And then Juliette gets on the phone, she wouldn't because she doesn't exist, but let's say she did. And then Cindy could ask her like, hey, have you seen my granddaughter Kaylee recently? Is she looking good? I just want

to make sure she's okay. Why do you think Cindy didn't call any of Casey's friends to try to at least get a sign of life about Kaylee? I can't get into her mind why these people do the things they do. But like I said before, I personally feel that Cindy did not think anything was actually wrong with Kaylee. She was hurt or dead. She said, who's going to look after the little angel now? We can't see her. I haven't seen her. I haven't heard her voice. She said, who's going to look after the little angel now? We can't see her. I haven't seen her. I haven't heard her voice. She's clearly stressed. Why not just call to give yourself peace of mind? Because I think she was trying to, up to this point at least,

before putting up the post, communicate directly with Casey because I think there was something that occurred. The argument that night, she allegedly choked her. And I think she was under the belief that this was Casey's way of getting back at her. And if she started calling friends or Universal her job, it would only push her further away. I'm not saying I agree with it, but you're asking personally, I don't think she was. And she felt like Kaylee was in danger, like actually in danger. I do think she would have done those things, or at least I hope she would have. I don't know Cindy Anthony. So you don't think it crossed her mind at any point in that one month period that Kaylee could, and I'm not asking sarcastically, by the way, I'm truly curious, that Kaylee could be in danger or not being taken care of. I mean, she said Casey was an unfit mother. She clearly never trusted Casey to take care of Kaylee by herself before. But now for an entire month, she's hands off.

It's a change of behavior a little bit. I know. And in hindsight, I completely agree with you. I just not being in that household, I always try to put myself in their shoes, which isn't always possible. And it's definitely not possible here. I don't know the dynamic. I don't know what would have been going on in that household to make her think that way. I do know I've been in situations where I never thought an individual was capable of doing something and then they do.

And then after the fact, I'm like, I can't believe that they did that, whether it's really good or really bad. But you don't know what they're capable of until after the fact. And this may be one of those cases. All right, let's take a quick break and we'll come back. Discover the life changing benefits of Meow Greens for your cat. Ever see your cat slowing down or having health issues and wonder, what can I do to make them better? Well, my friend, add Meow Greens to your cat's food for 90 days and I guarantee you'll see changes that will amaze you. Greetings, I'm naturopathic Dr. Dennis Black, inventor of Meow

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tryroughgreens.com. Use promo code TRYROUGH. That's T-R-Y-R-U-F-F. Go to tryroughgreens.com. Use promo code TRYROUGH. That's T-R-Y-R-U-F-F. Go to tryroughgreens.com. Use promo code TRYROUGH. You discover the shipping. You don't have to change your dog's food to improve your dog's health. Just add a scoop of Rough Greens. Okay, so on Sunday, July 6th, Cindy Anthony tried to get Casey to bring Kaylee over again, but Casey said they were still with Jeff Hopkins and he had taken her car to get an oil change and a tire rotation, even though we know that her car was sitting in a tow yard and she was driving her boyfriend Tony's Jeep. On the same day, Casey's grandmother, Shirley Plezia, wrote an email to her sister, Mary Lou, saying, quote, I can't believe that Casey. I wonder what she is up to. Why would she be anywhere other than Orlando? Does Universal have theme parks in those other cities? Or is she just out gadding about? And is she taking the baby with her? Or is

a sitter taking care of Kaylee? Who knows what she's doing? I can imagine Cindy is beside herself with worry, end quote. Because remember, Casey had told her mother, Cindy, that she was out of town with Jeff. So she wasn't even in Orlando. The next day, Monday, July 7th, Casey ran into a friend at Subway and he asked her how Kaylee was. She said Kaylee was fine. Kaylee was actually on a play date that day. That evening, Casey posted the following on MySpace. Quote,

On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken. Trust no one, only yourself. With great power comes great consequence. What is given can be taken away. Everyone lies. Everyone dies. Life will never be easy. On the worst of worst days, remember the words spoken. Hold your head high. Smile. Laugh. Love unconditionally. Tomorrow is a brand new day. End quote. I think that's Casey's motto, man. Tomorrow is a brand new day. It doesn't matter what screwed up shit you do today. Tomorrow you've got a blank slate. And as far as I can tell, these aren't lyrics from a poem or a song. I Google searched them. I even broke them up. Casey seems to have written this herself. And I mean, obviously, there's certain generic things in here like,

with great power comes great consequence. I think that's from like Batman, isn't it? With great power comes great responsibility. So what is given can be taken away. You know, she's kind of pulling a little bit from like the Bible, pulling a little bit from Batman, maybe some Beatles songs. It seems pretty generic, but this does kind of speak to her state of mind. It seems like everybody was kind of starting to be a little bit more aggressive, wondering where Kaylee was. Even her friends were asking. Every time she sees somebody, they're like, where's Kaylee? And she's got to make up a new story.

And so I think she's thinking like, oh, the only person you can trust is yourself because she's the only person she can be honest with about what happened. Right. And I think it's also guilty conscience, right? If you know what's going on, every time someone asks you you very just like in passing, hey, how's Kaylee? Not a big deal to them, but to you it's a huge deal because it's like, oh my God, they're still asking me because- I feel like you're being attacked, right? And yeah. And you feel like you're being attacked because you know

what happened and you feel like they might know. And so it definitely weighs on you, I'm sure. And I don't want to pass over what you said there as far as when they asked where Kaylee was, she said, oh, she's on a play date. She's no longer with Zanny the Nanny. So again, going with that theory, if you want to discredit even longer, now we're looking at July 6th, 7th, whatever date is there, where now Zanny the Nanny allegedly doesn't have Kaylee anymore and she's with a friend on a play date so again just further digging a hole into the whole zany the nanny theory at least at least that theory is in my opinion completely gone yeah and i also feel like that myspace post maybe was a little

bit of a message to her mother as well you know what i mean like oh i can do this on my own trust no one but yourself i can't even trust you and it's kind of like when you can tell when, you know, somebody's fighting with their boyfriend online because they post like a meme and it's like, if you if I cut you off, it's because you gave me the scissors, you know, like stuff like that. And you're like, oh, Amanda's fighting with her boyfriend again. So it's kind of like this passive aggressive. I'm not going to talk directly to you, but this is meant for you. I agree. I think you're right. I think it's definitely meant for someone. And again, going we'll have to find the opening. but going into the theory I want to lay out, that would line up with it. So the next day, Tuesday, July 8th, many of Casey's friends were flying out to spend the weekend in Puerto Rico together. So

Amy was going, Ricardo, remember Ricardo, Casey's ex-boyfriend that she broke up with for Tony Lozaro, he was going. And she actually kind of like made them believe that she also was going basically almost up until the moment that they left. You know, she was like, yeah, Puerto Rico. Yeah. And then like the day they go to get on the plane, she was like, I can't go to Puerto Rico, man. I can't get away from work. You know, so she made up an excuse about why she couldn't. So instead, Casey helpfully offered to drive her friend Amy to the airport in Amy's car, which she had Amy fill up with gas since Casey was going to be driving Amy's car around the whole week she was gone. Now that Tony was back from New York and he was using his Jeep,

Casey needed another vehicle to use because she abandoned hers in a freaking parking lot. And you know what? There was nothing wrong with that car. There was no flat tire. It wasn't out of gas. The battery wasn't dead. There was no reason for her to leave her car in the parking lot of that Amscot Chalky Cashing Place, which I always am wondering, why did she do that? Why did she leave her car there? Why did she not hide it someplace or rent a storage unit and put the car in there if she really didn't want it to be affiliated with her? Because she knew it would track back to her. And she never says like, oh, somebody stole my car. I thought maybe at first she was going to make it seem like Zanny had taken her car and stolen Casey in it. But she never brings that up. So it's just very confusing to me yeah no i agree i think

the leaving the vehicle behind uh after we know there's a strong smell coming from it that's been acknowledged by her and by other people as well as friend by her friends i think she felt like that vehicle being present around people she was close to was going to raise a lot of flags and it already had at that point so she wanted to i don't know if she abandoned it to the point where she was like i hope the police find it and take it but just basically i'll leave it over there for now and maybe the smell will eventually go away or something you know something along those lines she may not have thought that it would get towed you know that's what i'm saying i don't think she'd want it in in custody of anyone i think she just felt like i'll leave it here'll be fine. And her being oblivious to what's going on around her, she might not even know at this point her

car is an impound. I don't think she does. Yeah. Okay. So Casey dropped Amy at the airport right before 6 a.m. And at 9.30 a.m., Casey texted Amy and she gushed about how much she missed her. And they'd be reunited soon. She's still telling Amy and her friends like, I'm going to get to Puerto Rico sometime this week. Like once I can get away from work, I'm going to fly out there and meet you. You know, we're going to see each other soon. But at the same time, Casey was going on a shopping spree using checks from her friend, Amy's checkbook. So basically Amy's checkbook had been in the glove compartment of her car. Casey took it and then just started spending all of Amy's money. At noon, she was at Target buying Eggo waffles, spaghetti, cherries, yogurt,

Juergens lotion, paper towels, and a whole bunch of stuff. She spent about $111 of Amy Hazinga's money. That night at 10.14 p.m., a picture was uploaded to Casey's computer. It's a drawing of a little girl who many people have said they believe resembles Kaylee Anthony. And she's looking up at a teddy bear hanging on a noose. And the words, why do people kill people who kill people, to show people that killing people is bad, are written at the bottom. So do you want me to read that over? Because I don't know if that's proper English.. So do you want to read that over? Because I don't know if that's proper English, but why do people kill people who kill people? To show people that

killing people is bad. Basically, if somebody commits murder, why do we put them on death row? To show them that killing is wrong. And that's interesting to me because it's almost like Kaylee might be thinking like, well, what happens if I do get caught? What happens if they find out? Am I going to get the death penalty? And if so, that's wrong because that's not going to teach me not to kill someone because you're killing me and you're not teaching me anything here. I think she's honestly so narcissistic that she's wondering and thinking maybe a little ahead. Like if I get caught, am I going to go to prison? Am I going to get life? I could get the death penalty. I mean, this is Florida. And then in that situation, you know, poor me, that shouldn't happen to me. That's not right or moral. Yeah, I don't. I think it's a great analysis. I think

you're onto something there. It's she started to, again, in line with the laptop and knowing that the walls are closing in on her. At some point, this is going to come to a head. She started to think about the ramifications, the consequences of her actions and what the results could be. And yeah, I think the worst case scenario for her would have been death penalty. She's scared. She's thinking about that now. It's been a few weeks since this occurred. A lot of thoughts, I'm sure, that you and I will never understand are running through her head. Yeah. So Casey, if you are in the comment section, that's what I want to know more than anything. What the hell was your plan? What was your plan? How long did you think it was going to go on for? How long did you think you were going to get away from it? And as the days ticked on, were you stressed because you knew that your time was coming to an end? Because I would love to know what the plan was. You don't just dive into something like this, this grand fabrication and web of lies without hopefully having an end game or a plan B or another direction to take if something goes wrong with one of the legs of your journey of lies. What was the plan? I can't imagine that there ever was one. And that's

a little worrisome because it looked like she was kind of flying by the seat of her pants, living one day at a time and just hoping for the best. I agree. I think she was deaf and she was hoping that this was going to go away, but she was realizing very quickly it wasn't, especially when it came to her mother, Cindy. Yes. Well, two days later on Thursday, July 10th, Casey went shopping with Amy's checkbook again. And this time she was getting more bold. She wasn't just shopping for food. She bought a beret. She bought a couple bras, a jacket and a hoodie and some other articles of clothing, spending $137. Then that same day, she went to another Target and bought more food, bread, orange juice,

some more cherries and straws, Bud Light, Sudafed, and much more, spending $155. I don't know, man, why she would need so many damn cherries and straws. She just bought cherries and straws two days before, and now she's buying more cherries and straws. Do you think it's for drinks? Do you think it's for mixed drinks? I have no clue. She does seem like the Shirley Temple kind of girl. I like Shirley Temple, so let's not. Okay, there you go. Okay. Well, so does Casey.

There's nothing wrong with a Shirley Temple. Don't bring Shirley Temples into this, okay? She likes Shirley Temples, but you know Casey's has some vodka in it. Yeah, it probably does. So Casey also spoke to Cindy Anthony briefly on this day, still pretending that she was out of town. And she said that she and Jeff were going to dinner that night and they would be back in Orlando on the 12th, July 12th. At 2.21 p.m., Casey uploaded a picture of Tupac or a picture of a Tupac quote. She uploaded this to her computer. And the quote said, you can spend minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months overanalyzing a situation, trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could have,

would have happened, or you can just leave the pieces on the floor and move the fuck on. I don't know if Casey ever overanalyzed a damn thing in her life. Doesn't seem like she did. But this is, I think, another sign that she's sort of like, you know, okay, so like when you're really trying hard to keep something together and you're lying and, you know, all of this and people are believing you, everything's good. But then when they start pushing back on you, you get angry, you get defensive and you get to this point where you're like, fuck it. If you don't believe me, you don't believe me. All I have is myself. I don't need you people. And I think this is where Casey is. It's like this defense mechanism. Like, I know you people are going to be coming at me and attacking me soon. So even before you do, I'm going to put up my walls. I don't care about anything anymore. So you can't hurt me kind of thing. I do feel like that's kind of the progression right here. The last thing you said there,

where she tried for a little while, she's realizing it's not going to work. And now she's changing her whole perspective on the situation where she's like, you know what? I don't really care anymore. Whatever happens, happens. I'm over it. If I got in her mind, if I'm going to be in jail for this, then who cares? You didn't fire me.

I quit. Yeah. I do think that's kind of the, you know, usually it's like the stages of grief for her. It's like the stages of accepting the fact that you're going to prison or you really think you are. And I don't know. Why didn't she just fly to Puerto Rico and then not come back? You know, no money, Stephanie. Please. She's stealing money from Amy. I'm sure she could have seduced one of her boys. She could have gone to

Jesse Grundham and like, hey, I need four hundred dollars. I'll give it back to you. You know, or manipulate one of her friends into paying for her way like she could have gotten there. It's very strange. Yeah. I don't know why she wouldn't go. You're right. I don't know. It makes sense. You think that would be the best thing for her is to go but get the hell out yeah maybe maybe she felt like okay if i go where's my daughter this whole time you know they're gonna be wondering cindy's gonna be wondering what's the excuse for that how do i justify me being in puerto rico for however long and there's no accountability for katie you think that she's thinking this is an immediate admission of guilt. Like she probably considered it, right?

And then she was like, if I do, it's over. Like I can never come back and no one will ever believe me. I'll even take it a step further that she was probably pissed off that she couldn't go to Puerto Rico because of this burden that she was trying to hide. And it was like, oh, well, if I go, then everyone's going to know. So I can't go. So she's sitting at home, pissed off, stealing money from Amy, writing these stupid quotes because she's pouting at home because all her friends are in Puerto Rico having a good time. Damn. Well, this whole time that Casey's friends have been in Puerto Rico, she was communicating with them and she kept telling

them like, I'm going to meet you out there. But she also kept delaying her arrival. And finally, on Friday, July 11th, Casey texted Amy and told Amy, you know, maybe I'm not going to be able to make it. But if I do, I'll be there first thing tomorrow morning. But if I can't, I won't be there at all. So on this day, Will Waters, her guy that she was trying to hook up with, I guess, he was trying to get in contact with Casey because they'd been planning to have a date. And he planned a really good date. He was going to take her on a helicopter ride around Saw Island because I guess she had told him she'd never been on a helicopter before. And he was so smitten with her. He just wanted to really impress her. So Will called. He made the reservations and everything. He told Casey, this is when we're meeting,

blah, blah, blah. But then he called her that day to tell her, like, when to be there and everything. And she didn't answer any of his calls or texts until hours later, after the reservation had come and gone, when she texted simply, sorry, can't make it. And that was it. Now, around 8 p.m. that night, Casey actually called her mother, Cindy. And this is ironic. This is crazy. But Casey wanted to know,

why haven't you been calling me or texting me all day? Why haven't you been trying to reach me today? This is what she asks her mother. And Cindy was like, what's the point, Casey? You're going to be back in Orlando tomorrow. You told me you were coming back on the 12th. Why would I be blowing up your phone today? So that's weird. Why do you think she wanted to know why Cindy wasn't calling her? Do you think she was paranoid that Cindy was like onto her and investigating and like trying to find her? And that's why she was too busy to call her. And this made Casey worry that like Cindy was going to blow it wide open any minute. Very possible. I don't know what would be running through her head at this point. Yeah, it could be like, hey, the fact that I'm not hearing from

him may not be a good sign. There might be something going on behind the scenes that I'm not aware of. Uh, and then it also could be something where, and we're going to dive into this, but Casey being jealous of the love and attention that Cindy has for Kaylee and not her, you know, maybe this is an underlying thing that Casey's really resentful towards Kaylee for. And maybe that's going to play into my theory that I'm going to play out later, my hypothesis. So it did seem like Casey maybe felt that the only time Cindy ever reached out to her was to ask about Kaylee. Right. You know, so there might be something there. I agree.

So the next day, Casey used another of Amy's checks at Winn-Dixie for almost $100. This was the same day that Casey was supposed to be bringing Kaylee back to Orlando. And she had told Cindy that they would come over and see her. But then Casey called her mother and told her that Jeff's mother, you know, this sweet woman with cancer who didn't even exist, she was getting married in a surprise wedding, like a last minute wedding. So they were all going to stay in Jacksonville for that. I'm not sure, but at this point, Casey may have been aware that she was running out of town because she couldn't have expected this to go away forever.

And she couldn't have expected Cindy to believe that every single day there was something else popping up that was preventing Casey from coming home. Derek's telling me we got to take a break. So let's do that really quick. We'll be right back. All right, so we're back from break. And before we continue on with the timeline, Derek's mentioned multiple times that there's a theory he's sort of come up with and he wants to talk about it. And I'm honestly dying to know what it is at this point. And hopefully it will be something that we can sort of look at as we continue through the episode, but lay it on us,

man. Okay. So I'm not going to dive too much into some of the specifics of the theory because we're going to talk about it later as far as the search. You guys had mentioned numerous times in the comments about the Marsha Clark special. I went back and watched it as far as the discrepancy in the times things were searched. You guys also have mentioned numerous times about the chloroform. Trust me, guys, we're going to get there. There's a method to our madness. Stephanie can attest to it. We're going to be covering the chloroform at length. Right, Stephanie, as far as- Yeah. First things first. Yeah. It is coming there. We're laying out the baseline.

At this point, the police don't even have her car. So there's there's no even chloroform on anyone's mind at this point in the timeline. But yes, we will talk about it next episode when we go over the evidence that the prosecution and Jeff Ashton would use to bring against Casey in court. So the last theory I laid out to you guys was more so on the line of Kaylee was home with Casey. Casey's not paying attention. She's on the computer. There's an accidental drowning. And she starts frantically calling the people she's closest to. I believe Ricardo was one of them. She called him at one point. Then she immediately called her dad and then her mom jesse she called jesse oh she called jesse okay someone she was jesse amy cindy george all right away right away at that moment okay and i said oh that could have been a sign of something frantic something just happened she was looking for assistance help on what what to do if she had fell in the pool and that's still possible it's very possible especially when you consider chloroform, as I've looked up, can be found in swimming pools because it is a derivative of chlorine, right? Not again what Stephanie has been saying. And I want to be open to all scenarios and what could play out. So I want to throw another theory to you guys. And the reason we'll throw it out here is because I gave you the accidental pool drowning theory where it's solely Casey who is covering this up. But that would mean that this was an accident. And that

would mean that basically Casey's biggest crime was not telling people about it, the disposal of the body, all those things. Let's play another angle here, because I was thinking about the phone calls as I was listening to him again. Let's say Casey and Kaylee are home. George is at work. And you guys have pointed out from the Marsha Clark special that there was a discrepancy in the time in which I believe the phrase was foolproof suffocation was searched. And that we were under the assumption it was at 152. But if you're to believe the experts in the Marsha Clark special, they were using an outdated software when they examined the browser and it actually was 2.52 PM. And I don't need to tell you guys this, but if that's true, if that's accurate, then that means there's only one person who could have searched foolproof suffocation. And that would be Casey

Anthony. In addition to that, they pointed out in the special, which I thought was pretty important, that sandwiched in between that search was entries into Casey's MySpace pages. So again, a reasonable person would believe that more than likely it was Casey doing that search. Why do I bring that up? And we'll, again, we're going to come at that again. I'm just hitting the high points of it because it's important for this theory. But let me throw this scenario at you. Casey's at home. She's frustrated and she's having a moment because Kaylee's aggravating her for whatever reason. She's crying. She's asking for attention, you know, spilling stuff, whatever it may be. And Casey is really upset, not having time for it. She just got told the night before by her mom that she was going to take Kaylee from her, which in her narcissistic way of viewing it might

have not looked at it as her love for Kaylee, but her lack of love for her. So she's sitting in her room and she's frustrating and she's getting more and more mad as Kaylee's crying and not cooperative and not listening and not being quiet for her. And she gets frustrated. And in that moment, she wants to punish Kaylee. And how does she do it? Well, I bring up the duct tape that we're going to talk about when Kaylee's found. Again, we're surface level here.

Why do I bring it up? I think you've mentioned this already too, Stephanie. Stop me if I'm wrong about the tape. Yeah, we did in the intro of episode one. What's important about it? Well, if this was a kidnapping, again, everyone's different, but I would think you would put a piece of duct tape over her mouth so you can still take it off to speak to her, to feed them, whatever, if you're really kidnapping them. That wasn't the case here. This was wrapped around her head three times. Yes. To me, that says frustration. That says I'm upset. You're doing something aggressively to prove a point.

Does she grab her with the duct tape and wrap it around as she yelling at her to shut up, to be quiet, wrapping it around her mouth. And this tape might have been right after she searched foolproof suffocation. And if you're to believe that the chloroform was part of this, she could have used pool water or some other substance in the house after she duct taped her to put it over her face to suffocate her, therefore intentionally killing her. The reason I bring this up is a few different things, because I said to you guys in the episode when it came up that these

phone calls, these text messages might have been a sign of being frantic and not knowing what to do. What if they were actually calls for help because she wanted someone to come home sooner than later to take Kaylee off her hands because she didn't want to have her there anymore because she was aggravating her. So she was calling before Before, before the duct tape, before. Before everything. She's calling people that she's close with. Jesse, mom, dad, Amy, because she wants to get out of the house. She wants to get Kaylee in someone else's possession because she's over it.

She's had enough of her for the day. When nobody responds. No, she does. She talked to Jesse and Amy both on the phone that day. Earlier in the day. What I'm saying right before that incident at the, what was the timestamp on it? I'm talking, it was within minutes of each other. It was like four or five calls. It was like four or five calls that she made that went unanswered in

a matter of like two minutes. Those were to her mom, her dad, and Tony, her boyfriend. Are you sure it was Tony? Because you said Jesse a couple seconds ago. Were you referring to the earlier calls? Yeah. She talked to Jesse and Amy after she left the house, allegedly. And then she started calling her mom, her dad and Tony. Right. Because the calls I'm talking about are the ones that literally it was like four or five calls in a matter of two minutes that went unanswered. And to me, that might suggest that she was trying to get Kaylee out of her hair and nobody was responding. Nobody was helping. So she took things into her own hands. And that's what I wanted to bring up to you guys, because if that's the case, if it's true,

then obviously this was a homicide. And I think it's important to point it out because in one way, I've made the narrative fit that those four calls could have been, or five calls could have been a call for, you know, help. I need help. My daughter just drowned. Conversely, it could also mean that it was the motive behind the killing. She was frustrated. She was upset.

No one was helping her. So she took things into her own hands, which would, for many of you out there who brought it up to us in the comments, explain the duct tape being wrapped around her head three times. I hate to put this in your guy's head, but I can envision that. I can see someone being upset, yelling at a child, doing that as a sign to like, you know, show them, you know, this is like this. I want you to shut up. Here's how I'm going to shut you up because you're not doing it yourself. And that could have led to the chloroform being used or whatever Xanax being used. Because again, if we're to believe that the timestamps right shortly before that, she might've been looking up foolproof suffocation. So it's not

a far stretch to think that she was looking that up. And then when she maybe didn't find something that was easy to do within the house, she got sloppy and decided to use a combination of duct tape and some substance like chloroform or Xanax. So I just wanted to bring it up because you brought up the journal entry that was from years ago that you believe might have been more recent. Just, you know, the dates were off. And again, when we think about means, motive, opportunity, you know, the motive from those journal entries, from her behavior afterwards, how she was acting after Kaylee's disappearance would suggest that she wanted to be free. She wanted to live the college life. She wanted to be young again and not have the responsibilities associated with having a child. So there's your motive. Well, means and opportunity, the means would be being alone in the house, the opportunity being alone, no one around, no witnesses, and the means would

be using the duct tape. We might be going too extreme here. It could be as simple as just putting your hand over their mouth and nose. She's only two years old. It wouldn't take much to suffocate a small child with your hand. So there's so many things that could have happened in that home that we're not aware of, which would explain why in that moment, Casey goes silent after those frantic calls, you know, after those calls for help. And then the reason that we smell what we smell in the car later is because Kaylee is in that car deceased for almost 24 hours, if not longer, you know, by the time she's with Tony later that night, she's already dead. And it isn't until the next day when she goes to get the shovel at the Anthony household that she disposes of Kaylee's body at that location nearby the house.

So again, I won't go too deep. I wanted to throw it out there. And I think it's important as you guys are developing your own opinions, you may have your own theories that are completely different from what I laid out, but now you have this accidental drowning theory and you also have this murder theory. And I think depending on how you perceive what Stephanie's laying out to you right now and going forward, you may be able to fit those pieces into different theories in your own way. So that was really it. But what do you what do you think about that? I mean, it looks like around the same time the term neck breaking was searched. The search term bag over the head was used. I don't see her wrapping the duct tape around Kaylee's head out of anger, I guess. I feel like if it was either an accident

or she purposely did it, but I don't see her like, shut up, I want to put this all over your head, and then leaving it there not knowing that she would die. So I just don't see her being super angry and going into the murder. I feel like that's something she would have really thought about and worked her way up to. Why would she use duct tape to do that instead of a bag over the head, which I'm sure the family home had many of those garbage bags, shopping bags, things like that. I'm not sure. I don't see her calling people trying to get Kaylee out of the house or off her hands because she knew her father was at work, his second day at work. She knew her mother was at work. She never tried even calling her brother Lee, who may have been another option to watch Kaylee for her. So I don't really follow that part of the theory,

but I could be wrong because we're talking about Casey Anthony and who knows. Hear me out for a second. And I'm pulling from my own personal experience. Call me a bad dad. If you want, there have been times where I've been home working and my two kids are going nuts and Jana is out at the store or doing something. And I'm texting her going, Hey, how much longer do you get home? Cause I need you to, I need to tap you in here. And so if Cindy was working during the day, we're talking four o'clock. I don't know what time Cindy got out of work at, but it could have been something where she was texting her, calling her to see when she was going to be home. That's what I was saying. Like, you know, how much longer do you get home? Cause I got to get out of here. And then, and as far as the tape,

just envision this for a second, as hard as it is initially, Kaylee's not behaving. Shut up, Kaylee, shut up. I'm trying to do something be quiet. Stop crying She goes over to her she puts the tape around her mouth and even after she puts the tape around her head three times Because I looked at the pictures you can kind of see the way it wasn't done It wasn't done carefully, right? It almost seems like it was just kind of erratic So imagine kaylee sitting there now with duct tape around her head, crying, still not being quiet. And she has either already searched these terms or is now searching them. And then however she decides to do it, whether it's the use of some, you know, agent with the chloroform or by hand or whatever it may be, because she's still crying with the tape

on her mouth, it escalates. You know, I just, I think it, I think the fact that I'm saying in my first theory, it's an accidental pool drowning, but we have definitive proof that someone, and it's at high likelihood, was Casey searching foolproof suffocation on the day that we both believe Kaylee was killed or died. It's too hard for me to ignore. And I'll even add one more thing to it. This whole search, right? If we're to assume it wasn't Casey. It has to be Casey because what I'm looking at now says it was done on a password protected account that belonged to Casey Anthony. And not only that, let's take that out for a second.

I was seeing things on the Marsha Clark special where they were saying, again, this hasn't been verified by myself or Stephanie, so take it with a grain of salt, but that when Casey is eventually interviewed by police, someone goes back home or someone's at home later that day and deletes that search history. Oh, yeah. We're going to talk about that. Okay. So, I mean, I have to be honest with you guys and I can't sit here and say accidental pool

drowning, but not acknowledge those things. So I wanted to throw out that theory because at the end, we're probably going to say what we think. And I will tell you that this is why, you know, we're at episode five and who knows, this might be another two parts. I don't know, but there's a reason for it because there's an evolution and a progression as you learn more things and start to put the puzzle together. So I won't, I won't take up

any more time because I could go on for hours, but I wanted to at least put that in your minds. It's very hard for me to see Kaylee's death being a calculated murder like that by Casey. And no one hates Casey more than I do. I literally wrote here, this is what I wrote when I wrote these notes. You're saying she put the duct tape around her mouth and then either Googled foolproof suffocation to see like basically how to finish it. No, I don't. I'm saying it's a possibility. What I wrote down here was, and it's a contradicting statement, not premeditation, but premeditation. And what I mean by that is there could have been a moment if I had, if you said to me, Hey, Derek, you got to say what you think, you know, as far as the the order the chronological order of it I could see a situation with where

before the tape before the tape she's searching these phrases neck breaking foolproof suffocation and then as like a way of like okay last resort here before I go to what I'm searching I'm going to just cover this kid's mouth with duct tape and hopefully she shuts up. And maybe at that point she gave her some Xanax or she gave her something else to try to sedate her. And for whatever reason, it didn't work to the level Casey wanted. And that's when it escalated. And that's why I say it's premeditated in the sense where she was already searching these terms. But when it came down to doing it, it was very erratic. It was kind of emotional. It was in the moment where this duct tape was thrown around this poor kid's head

multiple times. And that in and of itself, if put around her head the right way, could suffocate a small kid if it's so tight they can't pull it off. Absolutely. So it could be as simple as that. We're looking for all these chemicals and things. But if she put it around her mouth and her nose and left it on there for an extended period of time, I mean, think about how small a two-year-old's nostrils- I don't want to think about that. No. Yeah. But again, that's where we are and I wanted to put it out there. I just always saw it as like it was either an accident or she snapped in the moment and did something like literally in a split second that she regretted after and knew she had to cover up after.

And maybe, you know, I always saw it because by the time Kaylee was found, she was so badly decomposed. There was no way to test for chemicals or to even really decipher a cause of death. The only thing that they had to go on was that duct tape, which was left over, right? That's all they had to go on because she was a skeleton at that point. So I almost wondered, was it like a shaking thing? Did she get so mad? Like you said, Kaylee's running around the house yelling and Casey grabs her and starts shaking her. She starts shaking her. She's like, come on, I just need five more minutes, five more minutes. And she's shaking her really hard. And then Kaylee's gone. And now Casey's

like, I've got to come up with a plan. Someone kidnapped her. How would they kill her if someone kidnapped her? They would suffocate her. How would I make it look like suffocation? Let me wrap duct tape around her mouth. I always kind of thought it would be one of those like for her to just purposely like cover Kaylee's nose and mouth with duct tape and then sit there while she's suffocated. I can't imagine it, but it's Casey. So it's Casey. And we think about like Chris Watts. We think about some of the stories that I just,

it's not. So I, and again, the first day we threw out did have that play to it where it's an accidental drowning and now she's got to make it look like a kidnapping. But even I, we try to put our minds in, you know,

in the same mind of these people and it's impossible, but it's like, if I was going to make it look like a kidnapping. But even we try to put our minds in the same mind of these people and it's impossible. But it's like, if I was going to make it look like an accidental kidnapping or a kidnapping, I'd probably just put a piece of duct tape. If I were going to do something like this, you put a piece of duct tape over her mouth and that's it. I don't see me sitting there wrapping duct tape multiple times around the head of my dead daughter. You see her doing it to her alive daughter though? Like that's worse. There's things, there's examples of child abuse that I've seen, you know, with video that's been recorded that, you know, parents do to their kids in the moment

where the kid, we've all seen the videos. You can look them up where a small baby is crying. Like I'm talking an infant and you see these parents beating these kids. No, no, no, no, no. We got to stop. I don't want to talk about this. But hear me out for a second. I won't talk about that, but doing these things, right? And expecting their actions to cause them to stop crying, right? But what does it actually do? It causes them to cry more, which is where I could see this possibly being a scenario. We don't have to go any further. I wanted to throw it out there because I laid out that theory about the pool drowning and then possibly the coverup of using the duct tape, all that stuff. But there's a lot of things that Stephanie is laying out to you

about Casey's behavior. And I was saying earlier how some of these things, as far as like Casey saying, why haven't you called me to Cindy might be saying in her head, wish you would have called me that day when I needed your help. When I was looking for someone to come help me out because Kaylee was driving me nuts and you were nowhere to be found. And this is your fault. Yeah. And now you're calling, but when I needed you, you were nowhere to, you know, I couldn't get in touch with you. You couldn't be bothered. So I went a little long there, but I wanted to put it out there. But before we get into the next section, let's take another break. Okay, we're back. We're going back to the timeline. While Casey was trying to keep all the pieces

from falling into place for everyone, Simon Burch, the operations manager for Johnson's Wreckers Service, was inspecting a white Pontiac Sunfire that had been sitting in his lot for several days. A notice had been posted on the front door of the Anthony home on July 11th. This notice was intended to alert the Anthonys that they had a certified letter waiting for them at the post office. Cindy and George claimed they did not see this notice until Sunday, July 13th, but on that day they were busy and George didn't get to the post office to get the letter until the following Tuesday, July 15th. The certified letter was from Johnson's Towing and Recovery and it said that Casey's car had been towed from an Amscot parking lot at the end of June and it was now being held in an impound lot. George headed right to the lot, but when he got there, he was told that his wife needed to be present because the car was registered in her name. When Cindy arrived, Simon Birch walked George Anthony out to the lot where Casey's

Sunfire was parked. George Anthony had brought a set of keys from home, and upon unlocking the driver's side door, he was presented with a foul-smelling odor. Now, Simon Birch, the manager of the Johnson's wrecker lot, he said he immediately recognized the smell. He said he had smelled it before in the vehicle of a man who had killed himself, whose body had remained in the car for five days. George Anthony described it as an overpowering odor, something that anyone within a few feet of

the car could have smelled. George said that the car was messy inside. He saw Kaylee's car seat and some other objects, but his main thought was to get inside the trunk of the vehicle and see where that smell was coming from. And he actually said that as he walked from the front of the car to the trunk, he prayed to himself and he said, Please don't let this be my daughter or my granddaughter. He clearly thought that what he was smelling was the smell of a decomposing body. Inside the trunk was a bag full of garbage. There was Arm & Hammer liquid detergent and a pizza box with maggots inside of it.

Simon Birch motioned towards the trunk and he said, this is your smell. And then he removed the garbage and tossed it into a nearby dumpster. Later, George Anthony told the police that the smell reminded him of something he had smelled during his time in law enforcement, a decomposition of possibly human remains.

George drove the Sunfire home. He said he wanted to drive with the windows open because the smell was so bad, but it was raining, so he had to drive the entire way there with the windows up. And when he pulled it into the garage, Cindy walked over, and she was also hit with the smell for the first time. And at that point, she yelled out, Jesus Christ, what died? Inside the car in the front seat was Casey's work bag. And in the back seat, there were a pair of gray pants, also belonging to Casey, that Cindy promptly threw in the washing machine because she said they smelled nasty. They also found Kaylee's backpack on the back seat. This was the same one she had been holding when she drove away from the Anthony's home a month prior on June 16th. Kaylee's favorite doll was sitting in her car seat. Now at this point,

they've got the car home. It clearly smells bad. Kaylee's not inside of it. Kaylee's car seat and her stuff is inside the car. But Cindy and George say, well, what should we do at this point? Let's go to work. They both went to work, which I think is very odd because to me, this would be a discovery that would now, if I wasn't thinking something was going on before and if I wasn't thinking there was something suspicious going on before, I am now. Especially because Kaylee had just told Cindy that she was with Jeff in like, what was it, Tallahassee or something? I forget, some other part of Florida. And that her car was having problems. So Jeff had brought her car in to get like the tires rotated and the oil changed.

But clearly he didn't because here's the car right there. And it was never with Casey and Jeff, wherever they were. But instead, Cindy and George decided to go to work. And Cindy said she made George go into work. He didn't want to do it. And later, George was asked why they hadn't called the police immediately. And he said, quote, because Cindy said she was going to handle it. I was upset with Casey. I said, I want to know where she is. She says, George, I'll handle it. So that was the extent of our conversation. End quote. When Cindy got to work, she told her boss and her co-workers about the discovery of Casey's car and her supervisor told her to go home and handle her family stuff. Her boss was probably like, what the hell are you doing here? Like you haven't seen you haven't seen your granddaughter in a month you get the car home

it smells like there's been a dead body inside of it and then you come into work by the way not to backtrack too much but why was the trash in the trunk we don't know i'll tell you why the trash was in the trunk to cover up the smell of the case he put it there after amy called her out on the you know the car smelling like a dead animal. You know, she said, oh, it was probably my dad. She's like, I got to throw something in here that would explain why my car smells like that. And that's why, who puts trash in their trunk? That much, you know, that amount of trash that would be, oh, they may, this might be it. I mean, you got to be a really disgusting person to do something like that. I don't know many people. I mean, it's Casey, man. Yeah. Yeah. I think the trash was put there to try to explain why the car smelled the way it did.

And I will also say the fact that it smelled that bad, that we're hearing all these stories about how pungent the smell was, it's highly likely, again, from my experience with dealing with decomposing body, this isn't something that happens, this type of smell at least, after a couple hours. It's 24 hours, that type of heat. Absolutely. Which is why I was saying earlier, it more than likely she would, you know, Kaylee was in the trunk for an extended period of time, at least until the following day.

So, I mean, there's also the option, you know, Tony Lazaro lived in an apartment building. When you live in an apartment complex, sometimes there's no garbage nearby. There's like a dumpster and you got to like either walk to the dumpster or drive to the dumpster if it's far away. Casey was always trying to go out of her way for the men in her life, like cleaning for them, mothering them, taking care of them, anything to make her indispensable to them. So she may have been like, oh, yeah, Tony, I'll clean up your kitchen and, you know, take the garbage out. And she threw the bags in the trunk, planning to drive to the dumpster. And then she just forgot or she said, I'll do it later. I don't feel like doing it now. Who knows? Or she said, hey, I'll take a trash for you. I actually need that. Yeah, that's possible too. I need that because I don't think reasonable people

would forget that you just picked up a bag of trash and threw it in your trunk because all people know what's going to happen if you do that. And then by the way, if the trash was the reason for the smell, when Amy said to her, hey, what is that? She would have remembered that she has trash in her trunk from the other day when she forgot to drop it off. But she didn't say that. She said, oh no, I think my dad hit a dead animal. So either the trash wasn't in the trunk at the time or it was in there and she knew why it was in there. You could be right. Yes, man. I don't take pleasure in that. I don't take pleasure. It's just, we wonder, does she really plan these things out? Does she use any foresight? And at times it seems like she doesn't. And then at times it seems like she's planning everything

out to the minute detail. So it's very, very confusing and not consistent the way she lies and keeps this lie going. Fair. Very fair point. Well, while all of this was happening, Casey was picking up Amy from the airport. Amy got back from Puerto Rico. And after that, Amy dropped Casey off at Tony Lazzaro's apartment. But Amy would get a surprise phone call later that night from Cindy Anthony. After Cindy got back from work, she began going through Casey's car for more clues, and. The entire time she claimed to be in Jacksonville with this car, she wasn't. The car was here, you know, and she's telling Amy all of this stuff. And Amy has no idea that this is happening because, you know, Cindy hasn't called her before this moment. So Cindy was like, hey, can you tell me where Casey's staying? Like,

I need to find her. I need to get to the bottom of this. So Cindy drove in Casey's car, the Sunfire, to pick Amy up after Amy agreed to show Cindy where Tony Lazzaro lived. And when Amy got into Casey's car, she commented that the car smelled bad. But she also mentioned that Casey had told her there must have been a dead animal stuck to some part of the vehicle. Once at Tony's apartment, Cindy confronted Casey. And what actually happened is Amy went up to the door. Amy knocked on the door and Cindy like hid, you know, like off to the side so that Casey wouldn't see her. And when Casey opened the door, Amy stepped back and Cindy sort of like got in front of

Casey's face. And she demanded, you know, show me Kaylee right now. I need to see her right now. And Casey was like, listen, Kaylee's fine. You don't need to see her right now. And Casey was like, listen, Kaylee's fine. You don't need to see her right now. And we need our space from you. So they argued back and forth for a bit. And then Casey and Cindy walked into Tony's apartment. Tony was inside playing video games with one of his friends. He's probably like, what the hell is going on? You know, he's like,

I'm just playing Call of Duty over here. And there's like angry women screaming in my apartment. So Cindy told Casey, you know, go get your things. We're leaving. And then she looked at Tony. And according to him, she said, quote, I hope you're rich because Casey is going to take all your money and leave you high and dry. End quote. So Tony said that Casey.

Yeah, right. Well, I mean, at this point, I'm kind of like annoyed with Cindy because I'm like, oh, you act like you've got the down low on your daughter. Like, you know what kind of shitty person she is. Yet for the last 30 days, you've been letting her lie to you and not doing any legwork to find out what was really happening. And it's not like you could say, oh, Casey's not a liar, though. This is so out of character for her. Casey's a liar, man. She lies about everything all the time. So there's no way Cindy legitimately thought for 30 days that everything Casey told her was the truth.

And she made no effort to check these lies or claims out for herself. And now all of a sudden she's like, oh, Tony, this this girl here is a piece of shit. I hope you better protect yourself. It's kind of like bullshit. Is it possible, although it took way too long, completely agree with you, I got no rebuttal. Is it possible that although it took her way too long, she's finally getting it? Like the smell of the car and the fact that the car wasn't in Jacksonville where she said it was, she starts to put two and two together. Again, not giving her credit here.

Oh, great, great. I'm so glad you did after a month. But is it possible where Cindy finally, after taking a very long time, put it together that something's wrong with Kaylee? Derek, there's no way. It took her 30 days to realize Casey was lying. And once you realize Casey is lying, not about everything maybe, but about some things, that's when you have to check. She didn't. And let me talk to you about a situation that would happen in an alternate universe. Let's say that Cindy Anthony got her head out of her ass within a couple of days of not seeing her granddaughter. And she does all of this stuff and the police get involved.

And maybe we find Kaylee before she's a skeleton and we're able to figure out how she died because she wasn't that decomposed. You know, if she goes missing on June 16th and even like 18th, 19th, Cindy's like, you know, I haven't seen my granddaughter in three days and I've never gone this long without seeing her. I'm going to do my own investigation. Now we find Kaylee sooner and we're able to actually determine whether or not she died. And hey, now Casey Anthony is in prison for life as she should be. So that's a different, you know, situation and scenario that could have happened if Cindy

Anthony had gotten her head out of her ass. But I digress. So Cindy's over here being sassy with tony and then tony said casey you know ran out and told her mother to shut up when she said that about him being rich and then they both stormed out of the apartment and tony's like all right go back to my video game back to call of duty yeah he's like i can't do it wasn't even a thing back then. But, you know, you guys get the joke. Well, it wasn't. Call of Duty in 2000, what year? 2008? Yeah.

I mean, maybe he was playing like, what's that one game where you steal cars and shoot people? Grand Theft Auto. Grand Theft Auto. It sounds like GTA. That was there. Yeah. He's playing GTA.

COD was not around yet. Well, it does seem like another odd thing is Cindy's in Tony's apartment and she's like telling him off, you know, but she never asked him, hey, have you seen Kaylee? You know, Casey's little daughter, when's the last time she was here? Is she okay? She never asked him about Kaylee while she was there. And that seems to me to be completely bizarre because this is where Casey's been staying. So you'd think like maybe Tony, her boyfriend, who also lived there, would have an indication of when the last time he saw Kaylee was. And then Cindy would have more information. But she doesn't even bring Kaylee up.

Yeah, I mean, that's so hard. You know, I try to go off what you're telling me. It's like you told me initially she went there and the first thing she asked Casey was, where's Kaylee? I want to see her right now. Maybe she didn't think to ask the dude because we're not sitting here saying that Cindy's a genius. It took her 30 days. She's a nurse.

She's not stupid. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. In the spur of the moment, she's so upset. You know, she's directing her anger and her questioning at Casey. I do think she could have asked him. I mean, how do we know for certain 100% that she didn't say to him? Have you seen her? Have you seen Kaylee? I mean mean because he said she didn't he said later said she never asked

me he said like his police interview like that yes there's his police interview she didn't ask him all right she didn't ask him and the worst part is is she's i can't do it like she i'm gonna use her own words who's looking after the little angel now, Cindy? Because she seems more intent on making Casey look bad and, you know, dragging her across the coals in front of her boyfriend than to find out what's actually going on with Kaylee. And that's just my opinion. But we'll continue. Fair enough.

Way in the comments, guys. On all this stuff we've talked about. I mean, this is probably gonna be our longest episode ever. And listen, I'm not blaming. I'm not blaming Cindy. Obviously, this is Casey's fault. It's not a blame game. It's about like, OK, Casey did something and she messed up.

But now all of these other people who could rectify the situation or at least bring some closure to it sooner, they're just completely standing by and doing nothing. And there has to be some blame laid there as well. You have a little girl who's gone, who's advocating for her, Who's looking for her? You knew she was missing. You knew that you hadn't seen her. You knew that your husband hadn't seen her and your son hadn't seen her. So who's looking out for her? Who's advocating for her? Nobody. I'll say this. One positive note for Cindy, at least. 95% my, just my take on it, that Cindy had zero to do with the disbursement of Kaylee's body. I don't think she was involved. I don't think, I think all this

behavior as, as much as you're pointing out, I don't think Cindy had a single grain of salt to do with any of it. Like, I don't think she knew anything about it. That's why she's reacting. No, I'm not, I'm not pointing it out to even say she may have had something to do with it. I'm pointing it out to show you the level of narcissism that exists in these people where it's I want this and it's tunnel vision on that. Right now, I met at Casey and Kaylee's fallen to the wayside. And it seemed like that was the case with all of them. And that's a problem. So there's some responsibility to be laid at the feet of George and Cindy Anthony, who had it in their power to do more, and they did nothing.

That's all I'm saying. I think that's fair. I think that's fair. I think that's fair for sure. It's not their fault that she's dead. Oh, no. But I do think there's some responsibility there that Kaylee wasn't found earlier

with more evidence still intact. Yeah, I think you could put two and two together a little faster if you weren't blinded by your kids bullshit you choose to be blinded to their bullshit that's your choice i'm gonna i'm gonna be quiet you're going at me now no i'm saying like they're gonna come at you in the comments i know they are still leave derrick you're gonna start calling me cindy too i'm not i'm not mad at you derrick i'm mad at the situation could have fooled me you choose to believe your child's bullshit is okay don't hit me don't hit me stephanie i'm sorry i'm gonna hit you now all right anyway hey you know what this is why we

record remotely right here you're right if you were in arm's length i would definitely throw you would definitely throw something from your desk to my giving you a little slap if we do ever record in person i'm gonna have these little balls that i can just shoot at you there's like a there's like a there's like a cut in the between of an argument and it comes back and i have an ice pack on my head and nobody it's just like so derek you do agree with me right yes stephanie i agree with you okay now we can continue how can you not agree with me on that you choose to believe your child on bullshit like that's a choice at some point you're not a you me on that? You choose to believe your child's own bullshit. Like that's a choice at some point.

You're not a four-year-old kid who's just like going along with the tide of life. You have a choice. Whatever. Hey, Stephanie, I'm with you. Whatever you say. All right. Okay. Don't act like I'm abusive.

No, no, never. Never would I say that. Stop. That's it. It's over. People already hate me. Now they definitely do. Anyway, so they leave. Right. They leave. Cindy, Casey and Amy leave Tony's apartment and they drove to Amy's house to drop her off. And Amy goes inside and she's like, you know, I'm going to check my bank accounts because while she was in the car with Cindy before they picked up Casey,

Cindy had told Amy that Casey was stealing from everybody. She'd been stealing from her parents and her grandparents for years. And this made Amy remember an occasion where she had lost $400 and she couldn't find it anywhere. And Amy had asked Casey if she knew where the money was because Casey was sleeping at Ricardo's as well. And Casey told Amy that she'd seen Amy sleepwalking with the money. And while she was sleepwalking, Amy was sleep talking about how she was going to put the money someplace safe. And Amy believed her. But now Amy realized that Casey had probably stolen her money. And so she signed into her bank account and she found out that Casey had stolen from her again. Her account was completely

drained. Later, Amy would send messages to their friends, letting them know what Casey had done, but also telling them that there seemed to be bigger things to worry about at that point, since all this time, Kaylee had been missing. Yep. Everything's starting to come to the forefront now. Dominoes, man. Yeah. Yep. Let's take our last break and we'll be right back. And then for basically probably the next hour, we are ad free. There we go.

All right, we're back. So we're at July 15th now. On July 15th, Cindy Anthony called 911 three times. We're going to play all three calls for you. We're going to play that first call for you now. Hello. Hi, I drove to the police department here on Pershing, but you guys are closed. I need to bring someone into the police department. Can you tell me where I can, the closest one I can come into? What are you trying to accomplish by bringing them to the station? I have a 22-year-old person that has Grand Theft sitting in my auto with me. So the 22-year-old person stole something? Yes. Is this a relative? Yes.

Where did they steal it from? My car and also money. Okay. Is this your son? Daughter. Okay. So this your son? Daughter. Okay. So your daughter stole money from your car? No. My car was stolen.

We retrieved it today. We found out where it was at. We retrieved it. I've got that, and I've got affidavit for my banking account. I want to bring her in. Okay. I want to press target. Where did all of this happen?

Oh, it's been happening. No, no, but I need to establish a jurisdiction is what I'm trying to say. Oh, I live in Orlando. Yeah, but what address did these thefts occur at? Well, I guess my residence, I guess. That's actually going to be in the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office, ma'am, not the Orlando Police Department. All righty. Let me transfer you over to the communications section for Orange County.

Okay. Now, is the Orlando Sheriff's Department the one on 436 that is that open this afternoon, this evening? The substation you're at on Pershing, if it's Orlando Police, we're open primarily during the day. Uh-huh. But that's not the sheriff. That's the city police, which does not have jurisdiction for your address. And then there's the sheriff's department on 436. Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to transfer you to the sheriff's communications section,

and you can determine that. Hold on. Okay. So my next thing will be down the trout thing and we'll have a court order together. If that's what you want to say, we'll do it and you'll never... Well, then you have... No, I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.

All right. So as you can see, Cindy does not talk about Kaylee at all during this call. She simply says that her daughter stole her car and her money. Cindy doesn't seem to be super stressed in this call. She doesn't sound panicked, even though she knows at this point that Kaylee's not with Casey. I tend to think that this call was simply made to scare Casey. Maybe Cindy thought that if Casey thought she was going to be arrested, she would tell her mother what she wanted to know. Because you can hear in the background while the call is being transferred, Cindy's telling Casey, like, listen, I'm doing this now. And then my next step is going to get a court order if that's the way you want to play it. And Casey responds, that's not the

way I want to play it. So you can kind of tell it's almost like a game is being played. She's like threatening her with the possibility of authorities being involved. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And if it was that serious, she wouldn't be probably doing it in front of her. Exactly. So the prosecutor in Casey's trial, Jeff Ashton, he would also comment on the lack of important details in this first 911 call, saying, quote, I was impressed by the omission of significant details like the trunk odor and the amount of time that had elapsed before Cindy reported the grand theft auto. To me, Cindy's call presented like an annoyed mother hell-bent on consequences for her unruly daughter, end quote.

I find it very odd that Cindy did not mention Kaylee being missing at all during this call. I find it very odd. I think it goes back to what you said, where she was using it as a tool. Like, I'm going to get the police. You're not going to listen to me. I'll call the police. This is a two-year-old child. You don't know where she is, and Casey won't tell you.

Don't kill me for this, but is it possible still at this point she thinks that casey's doing this keeping kaylee from her deliberately as a form of punishment and that's why she's not i am going to kill you for this because i'm abusive so i'm going to kill you for it no that's possible yeah but i mean once again that's possible not saying you would act like that not saying i would react like that's probably what was going on but that's that's stupid then yeah i think she thinks that like that's the one thing that casey knows she has over cindy because cindy's voiced it numerous times that like she has a lot of love for kaylee she wants to raise kaylee and so i think cindy at this point not realizing that her daughter could potentially be a murderer is like you're doing this to hurt me.

You're keeping her from me to hurt me. I don't know where she is. I don't know who she's with. Yeah, that shows you the narcissism, right? Like, it's always about Cindy. Kaylee's missing because of me, because you're trying to hurt me, not because something could be wrong with her. Yeah, I mean, it definitely is. I would hope by that point you and I would have probably put in there that her car smells like death.

But yeah, I think we would have. But during this time, right, Casey sitting in the car with Cindy, she's not wavering from her story that she'd been telling the past month. She said Kaylee was with the nanny. She was fine. Everything was fine. Once Cindy and Casey got back to the Anthony home, Cindy called in backup in the form of Casey's older brother, Lee. George Anthony was still at work and he would be until 11 that night. So Lee came over and he walked into the garage where Casey's car was parked and he noticed what he called a very potent, very strong smell throughout the garage. Lee talked with Casey in her bedroom and Casey told him that Kaylee was with the nanny and Casey was not going to interrupt her sleep schedule by going and waking her up just to prove to her family that Kaylee was OK.

Lee said he was confused. He didn't understand why Casey couldn't just bring her daughter home. He was like, I'll go and get her. Why can't she just come home? And he claims that Casey said, quote, because maybe I'm a spiteful bitch. End quote. There you go. That's that's that's the impression she was given.

Cindy was I'm doing this to piss you off and to get back at you. bitch, end quote. There you go. That's the impression she was given, Cindy, was, I'm doing this to piss you off and to get back at you. Yeah, well, Casey continued to play the victim. She complained about the way Cindy treated her and how many times Cindy had told her that she was an unfit mother. And Casey told Lee, maybe I am. So Cindy was actually present for much of this questioning. But at one point, she walked out of the room to make her second 911 call, which we will play now. 911, what is happening? I have someone here that I need to be arrested in my home.

They're there right now? I have a possible missing child. I have a three-year-old that's been missing for a month. A three-year-old? Yeah. Have you reported that? I'm trying to do that now, ma'am. Okay, what did the person do that you need arrested?

My daughter. For what? For stealing an auto and stealing money. I already spoke with someone. They said they would patch me through the Orlando Sheriff's Department and have a deputy here. I was in the car. I was going to drive her to the police station, and no one's open. They said they would bring a deputy to my home when I got home to call them.

So she stole your vehicle? Yes. When did she do that? On the 30th. I just got it back from the impound. I'd like to speak to an officer. Can you have someone come out to my house? Okay.

Okay, I've got to ask you these questions so I can put them in the call, okay? Okay. 30th of June? Yes. Okay, how old is your daughter? 22. Okay, what's your name? My name? Her name.

Her name. And you said you have the vehicle back? Yes. I have the statement. She's there right now? Yes, I got her. I finally found her after a month. She's been missing for a month. I found her, but we can't find my granddaughter.

Five foot one and a half. Thin, medium, or heavy built? Thin. medium, or heavy built? Thin. Color hair? Brown. What color shirt is she wearing? White. What color pants?

They're shorts. They're, um, plaid. They're like pink and teal and white, black, plaid. Does she have any weapons on her? No. Isn't that telling you where her daughter is? Correct. Okay, we'll have a deputy after you as soon as one's available, okay?

Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. When Cindy left to make the call, Lee told Casey, listen, mom left the room, She can't hear us anymore. And he pressed his sister to tell him the truth. Casey finally told Lee that she had not seen her daughter in 31 days and that Kaylee had been kidnapped by a woman who Casey had hired to be the child's nanny, Zineda Fernandez Gonzalez. Casey claimed the last time she had seen Kaylee was when she dropped her off at Zanny's apartment on June 9th between 9 a.m. and 1 p.m.

Casey said she had been conducting her own investigation into where her missing child was. She said she had slept in her car outside the apartment complex for a while, and she'd been going to all of those bars and nightclubs because Zanny was known to hang out at these places. She told Lee that this very day that they were talking, July 16th, she'd gotten a call from an unlisted number. And when she picked it up, she heard Kaylee's voice. But when she asked Kaylee to put an adult on the phone, the call was cut off. So this is something that's always bugged me. Her timeline is obviously wrong because she said she dropped Kaylee off on June 9th.

And that was the last time she saw her. But we know that's not true because Kaylee was last seen on June 16th. Correct. Yeah. So it's very odd, right? It's not even odd. I know exactly what's happening here. She's trying to throw people off, make it harder for them to look into it. She's sitting in her back room. She's hearing her mom on the phone with authorities and she realizes very quickly that police are coming and they're going to want to know where her daughter is and they're not going to take oh she's with the nanny she's fined for an answer they're going to go over there and immediately so what she's doing is literally making this story up on the fly with lee and testing it out on him can't even remember she

doesn't she hasn't really prepared for it too much and that's why she's throwing out june 9th as a date because listen the jig's. Mom's on the phone with the cops in the other room. Things just got real. And so the cops aren't going to come there and take whatever you don't worry about it. She's fine. That's not how it works. So she knows that she's got to think and she's got to think really fast. And this is the asinine scenario that she comes up with where her dates aren't even right. And that just shows you how unprepared she was going into this conversation with Lee. This was not expected. She wasn't planning on doing this. But when Cindy got the authorities involved, she's got no choice now. Now it's now it's got you got to put something out there.

Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Actually, I thought at first she was trying to throw people off. Like if I give them the wrong date, then they'll be kind of like chasing, you know, a dead end for a while until they figure out what it actually was. But yeah, you're probably correct. They all saw Kaylee after that date. So, I mean, they're not going to go along with your shitty story. They're going to say, no, I saw her on the 16th. You'd be surprised because Cindy Anthony also gives an incorrect date for when the last time she saw her. Yeah Jesus. Cindy, you're not helping me here. I'm trying. You're not helping me at all, Cindy. If you're watching this, damn. I hope she's not watching this. And if she is, let's talk, Cindy. Let's sit down with Casey and talk. Let's all of us talk. Jesus. So Casey also told her brother Lee about Jeff Hopkins, the guy that she was with for so long and they were going

to be a little family. She said she'd met Zannie through Jeff. So Lee started making some calls and Cindy Anthony made her third 911 call, the only call where she seems truly scared and stressed out. Play that call now. 911, what's your emergency? I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff saying I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she's been missing. Okay, what is the address that you're calling from? We're talking about a three-year-old little girl.

My daughter finally admitted that the baby's in the store. I need to find her. Your daughter admitted that the baby is where? That the babysitter took her a month ago. That's what my daughter's been looking for. I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can't find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself.

There's something wrong. I found my daughter's car today, and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car. Okay, what is the three-year-old's name? Kaylee. C-A-Y-L-E-E. Anthony. Kaylee Anthony? Yes. Okay, is she white, black, or Hispanic? She's white.

How long has she been missing for? I have not seen her since the 7th of June. What is her date of birth? How long has she been missing for? I have not seen her since the 7th of June. What is her date of birth? Um, 8... 8, 9, 2000... Oh God, she's 3... She's 2005. So it's Carrie's missing!

Carrie's missing. Casey just had a poker a month ago. She's missing from a month ago. Okay, I understand. Can you calm down for me for just a minute? I need to know what's going on, okay? I'm going to try and talk. Is your daughter there? I'm on the and tell you. Is your daughter there?

I'm on the phone with them. Is your daughter there? Yes. Cindy says something's in this call that stand out. She says that Casey's car smells like there was a dead body inside of it. But she also says she has not seen Kaylee since June 7th, which is also inaccurate. I mean, she took Kaylee to see her father on Father's Day at the senior home. So I don't know. I wonder if this was a mistake or if she just didn't have the exact date. I'm not sure why. It's been over a month. Yeah, I think she's frantic. Is it possible, and maybe you're going to get into this in the next couple of lines, that she overheard what Casey was telling Lee in the background? No, but she was outside. And even if she had, Casey said June 9th,

Cindy said June 7th. These people are crazy. Like, that's what I'm saying. They're so freaking narcissistic. You don't remember the last day you saw this two-year-old that you all claimed to love so much. She was the center of your universe. And nobody remembers the last day. I mean, if this was my granddaughter or my daughter, I would be marking the days on the calendar. Yeah.

I'll tell you, Witnesses, we've talked about this before. It's amazing how far off with dates and times, because you think it's something that when you talk about these cases in hindsight, you would know them all. I can't tell you how often people were off by literally weeks, literally weeks. They would tell me something and I would have the phone record in front of me. I can't show them that because I'm trying to establish credibility and they're genuinely telling me something that they believe and they're just completely, they're not even in the ballpark. It's, it's a, it's a definitely something. Cause you, you would assume like you see on TV and in

the movies, when a witness tells you something that's gotta be, you know, what they're telling you has got to be accurate. They may be telling you the truth from their recollection, but it can be well. I'm not saying that's the case here. I don't think it's the case with Casey. It could be the case with Cindy. But either way, it's not a good look. I agree with what you're saying as far as like there should have been some even before calling.

If that's how you're feeling, you should have your dates and times. I mean, you're off by a week, man. Yeah, it's a freaking Yeah, that's a lot. A freaking week. That's a lot. Okay. And also, get this. You could hear in the call.

After all this time, after all the lies, it seemed like Cindy's first instinct was to still believe her daughter's tall tale about some nanny kidnapping Kaylee and Casey deciding to be a vigilante detective instead of calling the police. I wasn't partying at nightclubs, mom. I was out trying to find my daughter and I thought maybe she'd be at the bottom of a bottle of Tito's or maybe behind the bar at the hot body contest. Cindy's on the phone with 9-1-1 like, the nanny kidnapped my granddaughter. After Casey lied to her for a whole month and Cindy believes that Casey was like out

there looking for Kaylee this whole time without asking help for anybody. Yeah. No, you still think she's you still think she's like this redeemable person? Because I do not. No, I mean, it's. Yeah, I know there's bad, you know, there's good people who are bad parents make bad decisions. I don't know what to make of it here. I'm kind of looking at Cindy and George as are they accomplices? Are they someone who could have been involved with the death or the coverup of Kaylee's death? And no, no, we know you

don't think that, but they are enablers. They're enablers. They enabled this to happen. And I think why you, you know, we spent two episodes talking about Casey's childhood and all these things. That's why it was important because they were the ones raising her. And so all these things right now that are occurring, I don't want to say all of it because sometimes parents do a great job raising their kids and they turn out to be murderous, right? Like, you know, but there are instances, many instances where things could have been prevented and it could have been prevented at an early onset of, you know, when they were kids. And you're right. They're enabling them through the behaviors that they're allowing, which ultimately escalates, progresses, becomes worse over time. And here we are where this is where we are right now in this story where, you know, Casey's still lying out her

teeth about everything and anything, including stealing money from her friend while she's on vacation. She was sleepwalking, man. Yeah, No, it's ridiculous. And I do think there's some accountability there for Cindy and George as far as what they allowed to take place in their household, because your responsibility is to raise your children the right way and have them be good, productive members of society. And if they're not, in many cases, it was preventable or avoidable if you were a little bit more strict with them, And they clearly were not. So in that sense, I completely agree with you. They helped create this monster.

Now they're dealing with it. Yeah. Well, the 911 operator wanted to talk to Casey herself, obviously. And Cindy tried to give the phone to Casey. And you can hear Casey saying, I don't have anything to talk about. What a bitch. But she does eventually get on the phone. And here is that conversation.

Can I speak with her? Do you mind if I speak with her? Thank you. I called them two hours ago. They haven't gotten here. Can you speak finally? And this is from Danny. He took her a month ago. Ma'am. Ma'am. Okay, if Danny cares to talk... they want to talk to you. Answer the question. Hello? Hello?

Yes. Hi. What can you... can you tell me what's going on a little bit? I'm sorry? Can you tell me a little bit what's going on? My daughter's been missing for the last 31 days. And you know who has her? I know who has her. I know who has her. I've tried to contact her.

I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, about a minute. Okay, did you guys call and report a vehicle stolen? Yes, my mom did. Okay, so has there been a vehicle stolen too? No, this was my vehicle. What vehicle was stolen? It's a 98 Pontiac Sunfire.

Okay, I have deputies on the way to you right now for that. But now your three-year-old daughter is missing. Kaylee Anthony. Yes. White female. Yes, white female. Three years old, 8, 9, 2005 missing. Kaylee Anthony. Yes. White female. Yes, white female. Three years old, 8, 9, 2005, her date of birth. Yes.

And you last saw her a month ago? 31 days. From 31 days. Who has her? Do you have a name? Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter?

She's been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years. Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter? She's been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years. Why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago? I've been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid. Okay. Can you give me the name of the nanny again? Like, spell it out for me? Zenaida. Z-E-N-A-I-D-A.

Last name? Fernandez. Fernandez? Hyphen Gonzalez. I think the officers are here. The officers are there? The officers are there? Yes.

Okay, hold on a second. Don't hang up on me yet. I need you... Okay. So you'd agree Casey doesn't seem to be worried, stressed out. She doesn't even really seem to want to be talking to this 911 operator at all, right? She didn't want to get on the phone. And, you know, basically, that's it. She says, my nanny took her.

That's it. And I know it was stupid, but I went looking for her by myself. When the operator asks, why did you wait so long to call? I know it was stupid but i went looking for her by myself when the when the operator asks why did you wait so long to call i know it was stupid yeah that was great the operator goes well why didn't you contact us 31 days ago and she was like oh you know trying to do my own thing i know it was stupid it doesn't it doesn't make any sense it and that's why we're we're here talking about it because for 99 the population, it wouldn't make sense if someone kidnapped your child under very there's no circumstance where you wouldn't get authorities or other people involved. I can understand her saying maybe, oh, I don't want to get authorities involved because that might have them do something bad to Kaylee if they're looking for money or whatever, if there's like a ransom attached to it. But I would absolutely go home and immediately tell my parents like that.

You know, I would tell someone. So she does say later to the police, like, oh, I was afraid something bad would happen to Kaylee. But she also never says that there was a threat of that. Right. It's not as if Zanny was like, I'm taking your kid. And if you call the police, you'll never see her again. You know, that was never explicitly said.

And Casey never said that it was explicitly said. Yeah, because it wasn't. It doesn't make any sense. And that I could buy. If that was the only thing where she's like, I came home that day on the 16th and I told my parents that, or the 17th even, I went to go pick up Kaylee. They're nowhere to be found. I need help. And then you have other people who could help you who aren't authorities involved, at least with the thinking process behind closed doors before you go to authorities. She told no one. She decides she's going to be, you know, the detective, the, you know, the private investigator. She can do whatever she can. She's going to find her on her own.

Going to nightclubs. And she's going to be doing undercover surveillance at nightclubs to find her. It's ridiculous. I'm not going to say anything else. It's ridiculous. So while this was happening, you know, the police showed up at the end of Casey's conversation with the 911 operator. You can hear that the police are arriving at that point. And Lee Anthony, he called Jeff Hopkins because he knew Jeff Hopkins from school. Jeff Hopkins was a real person, but he was simply an acquaintance of Casey's.

They'd never been close. They'd never dated. His mother didn't have cancer. She hadn't gotten married the previous weekend. He didn't have a son named Zachary or a son at all, and he had never introduced her to a woman named Zineda Fernandez Gonzalez. Lee also drove over to Tony Lazaro's apartment to bring back Casey's laptop and a book bag she had left there. The laptop appeared to have been wiped or it had crashed and everything before that day, July 15th, was gone. I think personally when Cindy told Casey to go and get her stuff and Cindy was there like talking to Tony, I think that's when Casey did it because she would have had to have done it that day, right? She would have had to have done it that day in order for it to be wiped before the 15th of July. So she either did it while they were at Tony's apartment and she knew

her mother was there to pick her up and she knew shit was going to hit the fan or she did it when Lee brought the laptop back because by the time the police looked at it, everything was white. It was gone. Yeah, I think it's possible knew we've said it multiple times in the episode she realized that you know it was time to face the music you know everyone was in on it it wasn't a secret anymore and everyone was aware kaylee was missing and they were all starting to ask about her at that point so it was only a matter of time before she was going to have to answer and they were going to probably start to look at her. And they would look at her computers and things like that, her phone, etc.

So she was trying to cover her tracks. So the police show up. And while they're there, Casey was not talking to them. But she was texting her boyfriend, Tony. And she told him, listen, my daughter has been missing. And he said, you know, why didn't you tell me? And she said, quote, I'm sorry I didn't tell you. I love you. I need you. End quote. She also told him, quote, I'm the worst person in the world. If they don't find her, guess who gets blamed and spends an

eternity in jail. End quote. And for this, for what she said in this text to her boyfriend, I will never, ever, ever believed that she was not involved in what happened to Kaylee. I will never, because this is her first thought. This is the narcissistic shit that's going through her head. If they never find my daughter, I will never be able to hold her again, kiss her again, hear her voice. If they never find her, guess who's going to jail? And it's disgusting to me. I believe this one sentence illustrates Casey Anthony's selfish and narcissistic nature probably better than anything else. And this is how all the Anthonys were. It was always about them. Everything that impacted

anyone around them, it was always about how does it impact me? I don't care how it impacts Kaylee or my mom or all of these people that are now spending their time and resources looking for my daughter. But if they don't find her, I'm going to spend an eternity in prison. I agree with everything you said. The fact that that's her thought tells us that she had already been thinking about it. She was wondering how this was going to affect her, not what was going on with her child. And it also feels like it's a little play like, oh, poor me. I can tell you right now what's going to happen her, not what was going on with her child. And it also feels like it's a little play like, oh, poor me. You know, like I can tell you right now what's going to happen. They're going to end up blaming me just because they're going to have no one else to blame,

almost like setting it up like she knew where this was going. Well, yeah. And I mean, like the fact that she doesn't even think anything's wrong with saying this to begin with, that's a problem. That's a problem because hearing that sentence makes me cringe and I can't believe she said it and thought, this is okay, send. So Casey sat down with Detective Yuri Malik with the Orange County Sheriff's Office at around 4 a.m. on July 16th. Malik told Casey that he was looking at her typed and sworn statement and he said he wanted to give her a chance to rescind her statement and tell him a different story. He was like, I don't care if you want to

go back. Tell me what really happened. I won't hold it against you, but I need to know. And Casey responded, quote, that's the truth and I'm sticking with it, end quote. I'll read you a portion of this statement. She said, for the past four weeks since Kaylee's disappearance, I have stayed at Anthony's apartment in Sutton Place. I have spent every day since Monday, June 9th, 2008, looking for my daughter. I have lied and stolen from my friends and family to do whatever I could by any means to find my daughter. I avoided calling the police or even notifying my own family out of fear. I have been and still am afraid of what has or may happen to Kaylee. I have not had any contact with Zanetta since Thursday, June 12, 2008.

I received a quick call from Zanetta. Not once have I been able to ask her for my daughter or gain any information on where I can find her. Every day I have gone to malls, parks, and any place I could remember Zineda taking Kaylee. I have gone out and tried to find any information about Kaylee or Zineda, whether by going to a popular bar or restaurant. I have contacted Jeff Hopkins on several occasions to see if he had heard from or seen Zineda. On Tuesday, July 15, 2008, around 12 p.m.,

I received a phone call from my daughter, Kaylee, end quote. This is disgusting that she's pretending that Kaylee called her that day, by the way. It's pretty bad. But the reason what's interesting about this is this interview happened on the 16th. Yeah, 4 a.m. So they were up all night, pretty much and what i would guess is this detective mellick probably had already done like a cursory kind of like you know preliminary investigation where he probably was on the phone or went by jeff hopkins house and probably already looked up this as a nata no he has he has not yet

okay he has not gone to kind of look what's interesting to me is if it's four o'clock in the morning hear me out here again i gotta find you know, I'd like to know the specifics, but before I'm interviewing anyone, the minute patrolmen show up to this call and they realize that this, this kid's been missing for 31 days. The first thing we're doing is putting the mom in the car or, or, or at least getting the information and driving over to the last known location. Like that's what they're about to do. Okay. So the, okay. I would assume that would be one of the top, because before you do anything else, you got to find the child. That's number one. But we'll continue on. I'll weigh in as it goes. But he clearly does not believe her. So he gave her an opportunity just after reading it like,

is this really the way we're... Okay. He didn't even need to investigate to know that he shouldn't believe her because the fact that she had not reported her daughter missing for 31 days. They knew something was up. They knew something was up. This probably isn't their first rodeo. They've seen things like this before in other situations. They already knew that Kaylee was not in a good way at this point. There was something going on and the mother was somehow involved.

Yes. So Casey told the police that Zineda lived at the Sawgrass Apartments in apartment 210. She said that she had dropped Kaylee there on June 19 but no one ever showed up. So by 7 p.m., Casey still hadn't heard from anyone and she was feeling frantic, so she decided to go to a neutral place, her boyfriend's apartment. She said she didn't feel like she could go home because her parents would ask where Kaylee was. And of all the friends and family she'd been talking to for the past month, the only two people she had told about Kaylee being missing were Jeff Hopkins and Juliette Lewis. So when Yuri Malik asked her for Jeff Hopkins' phone number, Casey claimed that she would have to look for it because there had been some issues with her cell phones. Casey said she had two cell phones, her personal phone and a

phone she'd been given through work, and she would swap her SIM card out depending on which phone she was using that day. So this whole thing gets very complicated because, you know, it's a lie. And Casey seems to be making it up as she goes along. She says the new phone she just received from work, it wouldn't hold a charge. So she started using her older phone, but then she lost that phone, but apparently not the SIM card that went inside of it. The phone that wouldn't hold a charge was also the one that held Jeff's number, the one that she lost. But Casey claimed she'd left it on her desk at work and it had been stolen. She said she filed a report with Universal Studios Security nine days before

talking to Yuri Malek. Casey said that Jeff and Juliet changed their numbers all the time. She said Jeff used to work at Universal Studios, Juliet also worked there until she moved back to New York recently, and Zineda had also worked at Universal Studios as a seasonal employee. At the end of the interview, Yuri Malek asked Casey why she had not called the police after days or even weeks of her own unsuccessful investigation. She said, quote, I was naive enough to believe that I could find Kaylee myself, which obviously I couldn't. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved or my parents, which I know would have

done the same thing. Just the fear of the unknown, fear of the potential for Kaylee getting hurt of not seeing my daughter again, end quote. There's so much in here that as an investigator is gold for you because there's so much you can go over, corroborate, discredit, cross-reference, compare, contrast to other people that she's mentioning. She's giving so many details that can be checked, right? Like where people worked, places of employment, timestamps, conversations that were had. Security reports, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's so much in there. You can determine whether she's being credible or not, whether she's telling the truth. And so as an investigator, you're sitting there just listening

to her, letting her talk, letting her, you know, diarrhea of the mouth because everything she's saying, especially when she starts including places of employment, names, phone numbers, times that she did certain things, things you can go again, you can go check. It's going to be incredibly important to the case down the road, especially for prosecution purposes if it ends up going that way. So yeah, she's basically hanging herself here and the detectives allowing her to do it. Yeah. So Casey Anthony and Yuri Malik, they took a little drive followed by by uniformed officers in a patrol car. And one by one, they visited the places Casey claimed Zanny the nanny had lived at in the over four years that Casey had known her. They knocked

on doors, but no one knew Zanata or Zanata's mother, Gloria, who Casey claimed often lived with this nanny. Casey flashed a smile at the detective and she told him she was sorry she could never remember exact addresses because she'd been to all of these places so many times she would just go there on autopilot. So she basically, she didn't have exact addresses because she wouldn't know where she was bringing these people, these police officers, until they pulled into an apartment complex, right? At which point she would randomly pick a unit or point at a door or a window and say, that's the one. And that's why she couldn't give them exact addresses. So Yuri Malik dropped

Casey back off at her parents' house at around 6 a.m. But before he pulled away, George Anthony approached his car and he told the detective about the horrible smell in Casey's sunfire. Yuri Malik did not call it a day, though. He drove back to all of those addresses that Casey had claimed Zannie lived at because now the workday was getting started so he could ask some real questions of the people who would actually have the answers. He was told by the manager of the Sawgrass Apartments that the unit Casey claimed Zannie had lived in had been vacant for 142 days. The manager also said that a woman named Zenaida Gonzalez had inquired about an apartment on April 17th, but she had never lived there. Another apartment on Hillside Drive,

it ended up being a seniors-only facility. So you'd need to be over the age of 55 to even be considered as a tenant there. And according to Casey, Zanny was only 25 years old. But get this, a scrap of paper had been found in Casey's car. That paper had an address on it that was located right across the road from that senior facility. That address ended up belonging to Casey's ex-fiance, Jesse Grund. So Yuri was like, you know, Yuri Malik, he said she probably just saw that senior facility at some point while she was at Jesse's, not knowing that it was a senior facility, and then told us that Zenaida lived there. there are things that people display that you could tell they're not being forthright with you. And I can envision Yuri sitting there or walking with Casey as she's pointing things out. And as he's asking her questions as they're driving and her behavior is uncertain. Not only is what she's saying not making sense, but the way her conviction in which she's saying it, I guarantee you is

telling him she's lying to me. I don't know how long Yuri had been on the job or anything like that. He's good. He's a good detective. So he's got time on the job and he's sitting there listening to what she's saying as far as what's coming out of her mouth. But he's also observing her behavior and how uncertain she is about the information she's relaying to him. And that in and of itself, he's evaluating and he's using her body language to say, whatever she's saying, I'm going to obviously write it down because that's my job.

But I can tell you right now, I put a good amount of money on it. She's not telling me the truth. And then that's being substantiated by him going back there and talking to people who can disprove what she's saying. So I can imagine, I wish I was in that car because I'm sure it was a very interesting ride. Yeah. And she's flirting, you know, she's she's all like, you know, it's like kind of what you do as a girl sometimes if you get pulled over and you're like, was I speeding officer? You know, I'm sorry. I don't know exact addresses. I'm such a dead. And Yuri's not buying it. No, she's trying to pull this cutesy little like I'm just a little girl act. And no, he knew from the get that she was lying.

But he has to follow these leads. Like you said. Ultimately, he's just trying to find the girl. He's just trying to find Kaylee. Yeah. And he's not going to be like, oh, I think you're lying. So I'm not going to do it. But the next stop for Yuri Malik and his detectives was Universal Studios to find out if they

could get contact information for Juliette Lewis and Jeff Hopkins. So Yuri Malek met with Leonard Tutora. That was Universal Studios' security manager. And while he's in Leonard's office, he put Casey on speakerphone, but he didn't let her know that he was sitting in Leonard's office at that moment. And Yuri said, hey, Casey, it's me, Yuri Malek, and I need you to verify some details about Universal Studios. And he asked Casey to repeat her work number, her direct extension, and the name of her supervisor. She gave him a number, which didn't exist.

She gave him an extension, which didn't exist. And she gave the name of her supervisor, Tom Manley. And he didn't exist in the Universal Studios database either. Neither did Juliette Lewis or Zenaida Gonzalez. They also found out that Casey herself was not an active employee there. She'd been fired two years earlier on April 24th, 2006. At this point, Yuri Malik knew for sure that Casey was lying. But he didn't know why.

And he also felt that it was going to be a feat in itself to get her to not only admit to lying, but to tell the truth. So he decided to put her in a position where she would have no choice. He called Casey and he was like, listen, I'm going to send some cops there. I'm going to pick you up and I want you to come to Universal Studios, bring your ID card. So a couple deputies picked Casey up at her house and then she told them, she was like, oh, you know, I don't have my ID card. I lost it. But she still accompanied them to Universal Studios. And what followed will go down in history as the most desperate and ridiculous attempt to die on a hill that I've ever, ever seen. They could take Casey Anthony at Universal Studios with the police and turn it into an SNL skit at the main gate. So Yuri's there, the cops are there, Leonard, the security manager's there.

And everybody knew that Casey didn't work there except for the security guard who was manning the gate. And so Casey walks up and she's like, hey, I work here, but I lost my badge. So, you know, look me up in the system. And the security guard looked her up in the system and he was like, you don't work here. And she was like, yes, I do. And he goes, no, you don't. And she goes, yes, I do. And they argue about this for like two minutes, solid back and forth. And the police are standing there and they thought like this would be the moment that Casey realized she'd been beat. She'd come clean. She'd be like, I don't work here. But that didn't happen. She argued with the guard for several minutes. She insisted she worked there. She demanded to be let in until everyone felt bad for the guy that she was bickering with.

And then they let her in simply to see what she would do next. I'm going to read an excerpt from Prosecutor Jeff Ashton's book where he describes what happened once she got inside the park. He wrote, quote, To their surprise, Casey strode confidently through the maze of office buildings that housed the business side of Universal Studios. She took a left at the first building, walked to the end of the roadway, and then took a left again. At the next intersection, they crossed to the opposite side of the street through a parking lot, passed the first of two connecting buildings, and entered

the door of the second. By this point, the cop's curiosity had morphed into incredulity. As they went through doors and turned corners, each of them silently tried to figure out how far she was going to take this. Somehow, the charade that should have ended back at the security gate was still going on, and no one, perhaps not even Casey, could predict when or how it would stop. What kind of person would do this and to what end? It was no longer a mystery whether she was lying. The real mystery was why. Just as confident as she had been when she left the security gate, she led them halfway down the building's main hall and then stopped suddenly. Shoving her hands into her back pockets, she turned to them, flashed her cutest

shy girl grin, and said the words they'd been waiting to hear ever since she arrived. Okay, I don't really work here, end quote. Yeah, I mean, that's embarrassing. You know, to be serious for a second, this to me is beyond being a pathological liar. I think there's a psychological disorder here. And I'm not a medical professional, but to go to this extent, there has to be something mentally not right with you. And I don't say that to be funny. No, absolutely. I agree. I agree. I'm not, I think there's definitely an underlying illness there in her, you know, that's not computing right in her head. And I will say as the detective in it, you're sitting there going probably a little let down to a certain degree.

And I'll tell you why. Because if this is the sole person that you're going to rely on to find this now three-year-old girl, you're in trouble. Because there's tangible evidence in front of her that's around every corner. Literally, that's proving she doesn't work there and she's lying. And yet she was willing to ride it until the wheels fell off. So to think that she's ever going to be able to tell you the truth about something that is incriminating on a legal level. She would never. The hope can't be high. And so I'm sure as funny as it might've been for them a little bit, because we desensitize everything,

as they're probably sitting behind her going, is she serious right now? Yeah, they were. I'm sure it was also very demoralizing, realizing, unfortunately, that she was more than likely the last person to see Kaylee. So she's their most important witness and that's her level of credibility. So extremely frustrating for them, I'm sure, at that point, because although they got her, it's that gotcha moment, even though they got her in a lie, it just goes to show them that they're in a really bad spot. Well, they had no idea she would take it that far, right? That's it. They thought immediately as soon as she realized that she couldn't get in, she'd be like,

okay, and she would tell them what happened. Or not even get in the car, Stephanie, to go there. But when she was in there, they were like, okay, we didn't realize the level she would sink to. And now we don't know what level she won't sink to. Over on a place of employment. Yes. So at that point, I can only imagine what they're thinking. It's demoralizing because you know, it's an uphill battle because everything she said at that point,

besides her name and date of birth, you have to bring into question of whether it's true or not. It goes back to a question I asked earlier in this episode. What was her plan through all of this? And clearly, I'm thinking she never, ever had one because what was her plan going to Universal Studios, man? She got in the car. She's like, yeah, let's go, guys. Let's go to Universal.

What was her plan? She didn't have one. It was about buying time and she would deny until she died. I don't think she had a plan. I don't even know what she was thinking, not to go back to whether this was intentional or accidental, but regardless of which way it was, afterwards, you know that you've disposed of Kaylee.

You have to have a plan because eventually someone's going to start asking questions and it doesn't appear like she even gave it a lot of thought, like she put any effort into it. Like, is it possible? And I'm asking you this, is it possible that she really thought she was going to just be able to say, my poor kid was taken by this nanny and they were just going to treat her as a victim the

whole time and she was never going to be questioned or evaluated for her level of credibility? Did she really think that was a possibility? I mean, I guess so. I guess you're right. She did. I don't think she even thought it through that far. I don't think she did. Clearly, she's got the dates all wrong, everything. And back to what I was saying earlier, her giving this narrative, if you're going to lie, the last thing you want to do is bring other people into the equation because those people can make or break you.

So good liars will have things that they know can't be confirmed or discredited, right? Like you don't want to start talking about phone calls you made or places you worked or places that may have cameras or places that may have other people who had been there. Or like the sign-in logs and things like that. Yeah, anything. You don't want to go. And she picks Universal Studios, this huge corporation that probably has some of the best technology like of, you know, any corporations in the world you got like disney universal studios you know like yeah bad it wasn't well thought out no and again she's bringing all these other people in there she's thinking people that don't exist though so she could honestly just say like well i thought that's

what her name was juliet lewis that's what she told me her name was i don't know what her real name was jeff hopkins that's a great one you know Oh, Jeff Hopkins' son, he doesn't have a kid. It doesn't take a detective to disprove that one. Oh, that's it. End of story. You're lying about something that's kind of trivial. So yeah, the question becomes, how far are you willing to go? And I'm sure they realized at that moment, it was pretty extensive. And again, at that point, they have to start treating her as a suspect, even though they might not be saying that they realize that she's not telling the truth and she's somehow involved, but not in the way that she's portraying to them. So the police, they're like, we can't even wait to get her back to the station. Like,

we need to talk to her now while she's thrown off a little bit, you know, so they get her into a room in Universal Studios so they could question her again. And Yuri Malik, he looked at Casey and he was like, listen, I know everything that you've said to me up to this point has been a lie. And Casey responded, not everything. Casey insisted she didn't know where Kaylee was. Yuri Malik kept pushing and he said

he knew that Casey was probably afraid and maybe Kaylee wasn't in a good place, but this whole thing had become such a mess it needed to end. Casey told him she agreed, but she still didn't know where Kaylee was. Malik told her that Zanny had never lived in any of the places Casey had shown him. Casey was like, all right, but I still don't know where Kaylee is. He even told Casey that he understood that what happened to Kaylee may have been an accident. He gave her an out. He said, quote, I've never met you before. And I could look at you as a person who's scared, who's concerned, and who's kind of afraid of what's going to happen because of

something bad that's happened before. Or we can look at you as cold, callous, and a monster who doesn't care, who's just trying to get away with something bad that's happened and is trying to cover it up, end quote. Yeah, this is an investigative tactic, by the way. You know, it's a way of, it's giving him now, I told you before, we've done it with child molesters, things like that, where you justify their actions so that they feel like you're on their side. Yeah, but I mean, knowing what Casey would later claim, right, that Kaylee drowned accidentally in the family pool, you would think she might take this opportunity to come clean and admit there'd been an accident, but she didn't. The police told her to try and put herself in their shoes. They were like, you know, you claim that you really want

to find your daughter. You want our help to find your daughter. But all you've done since the moment we came on the scene is lie and give false information and send us on wild goose chases. Does it seem like you really want to find your daughter? And she's like, I get where you're coming from, but my story is the same. Yuri Malik even said to her at one point, he was like, listen, accidents happen. I've had to sit with many distraught mothers who have lost their children in swimming pool accidents. He says this unprompted, not knowing the defense that she would use later at trial. He's saying accidents

happen. I've had to be with these parents. They are distraught. They're devastated. They're not bad parents, but accidents do happen. You can tell me. They told her everyone makes mistakes. And if there'd been a horrible accident, she needed to tell them before she wasted everyone's time and landed herself in prison. A mistake could be understood. Lying about it could not. At that point, Casey said, quote, my mom told me flat out yesterday that she will never be able to forgive me. And I even told her I am never going to be able to forgive myself. Every single day I have been beating myself up about this. I've been running in circles. It's all I can do at this point. I learned the biggest lesson from all this. I made the greatest mistake that I ever could have made as a parent, end quote.

Now, during this interview, according to Yuri Malik, Casey remained calm and stoic. She spoke in a very monotone voice. She never appeared upset or worried. She never shed one tear. And this is, I think, something that's common when you see people, and, you know, talking about mental illness, when you see people depersonalizing, when you see them sort of disconnecting, they do get that monotone voice. It's like they're separating themselves from themselves so that they're not feeling the things and they can talk in a calm manner. So and that is something that one of Casey's friends did

say about her, that she had an off switch, that she could just turn it off when she was too upset or something was stressing her out. So from Universal Studios, the police brought Casey to the Orange County Police Department, and they put her in a room so that they could discuss amongst themselves what to do with her. They had no evidence that Kaylee was no longer alive, and they had no evidence that Casey had done anything to her. But Yori Malek felt that Casey failing to report her daughter missing for a month was at the very least child abuse. So on the afternoon of July 16th, Casey Anthony was arrested on charges of child neglect. And that is where we will end today's episode. Right call. You don't really have nothing yet, but you definitely at minimum,

based on her behavior, on the lack of of reporting the inconsistencies in her statement uh you know it's a good start and and it's something to maybe keep a tab on her because now she she has a charge you know over her head maybe they can use that as leverage later well yuri malik said he was afraid that she might if he didn't put her in a cell and like keep her at the station she would go home and like take her own life which i don't believe i don't think he knew who he was dealing with at that point oh yeah she exactly yeah she's way too narcissistic way too focused on self-preservation to ever hurt herself um so but he was afraid he said that that she would go home and smart he definitely knows his stuff he was he's very good i would have felt the same way you know because the day you know he's probably thinking

at that point, she can't be as, she can't be this bad. She's just playing me. And as soon as I let her out of here, she knows the jigs up and she's going to go kill herself. She believed a lot of what she was saying. She has convinced herself of that. That goes back to the mental illness. I won't weigh any more than that.

Not that I don't want to. I mean, this is a record for crime weekly here. If you're still with us, I just want to say thank you. Congratulations. Oh, they're still with us. They're here. We'll see how the retention rate goes. Let me see a show of hands, guys.

Show of hands. But yeah, we want to thank you for sticking with us through this entire episode. We covered a lot. It was a lot of substance in there. We want to also say a personal thank you to our editor, John, because he's doing this with one day less than he usually has because of all these debacles with our technology. And we decided it was the perfect time to give him a two and a half hour episode. And it's my it's equally my fault because I was talking a ton this episode as well.

What do you mean equally your fault? Were you placing all the blame on me? Usually it's you. Usually it's you because you're the one with the, you know, books for scripts, which are awesome. But I am definitely a contributing factor here, equally to blame, because I went on a narrative about my theory for a good 25 minutes. So without a doubt, I take responsibility. But I do think it was warranted everything we covered. We're now at the point where Casey Anthony's whole thing is coming unraveled and she's under arrest.

She's been arrested for a crime. You know, what do you think? I'm assuming we're probably not going to tie this up by next episode. So the next part, we're going to go over the evidence and then also things that she said. I mean, because she does address the Jeff Hopkins thing, too. Like, you know, we're going to tie up the loose ends and then we're going to talk about the trial. But by the time we get to the trial, we've already gone over the majority of the evidence. So I do want to talk about what the jury was thinking, right? Because

they did find her not guilty, which doesn't mean innocent. You know, that's a common misconception. Not guilty does not mean innocent. They did find her not guilty. Then afterwards, once they were out, the jury did have some things to say about that decision. And so I do want to also discuss that and a little bit about where Casey is now. So two more episodes, I'd say. Sounds good. I'm ready for it. I mean, fascinating case. I didn't, you know, I see it in the comments, everyone saying they thought they knew this case. Then they hear it. They've been hearing what we've been having to say, and they realized it was a lot they didn't know. Again, thank you always for the comments, questions.

We're definitely seeing them. That's why we kind of weighed in on some of them tonight as far as Marsha Clark, Chloroform. We hit them a little bit. We'll hit them more. As always, thank you for the support. We're going to keep going. What is that? Stars.

I thought this whole time you've been writing notes about what I've been saying. No, I was. I was also doing that. But sometimes when I have to pay attention, I have to doodle to keep my mind on what you're saying or I'll wander. Show that again. Okay. I'm not going to weigh. I'm going to reserve judgment. I'm not going to say anything. Okay. Why? No, no reason. I literally thought you were like attentive. I was attentive.

This keeps me attentive. I used to get in so much trouble in school. My teachers would be like, stop doodling. And I'd be like, I can't pay attention to you if I'm not doodling, man. I would say something and you'd be like this. And you start writing. I'm like, oh, I got something good there. And you're writing four stars you know it's kind of like what you do to people in interrogations

you know like freak them out and they say something and you're like hmm and you write it down they're like what the hell is he writing i was thinking i was hitting on some stuff and real and really those five stars perfectly wow don't ever question me again about like picking up my phone or something never again all right i'm gonna take us out this week for the first time ever we appreciate you guys joining us here thank you for all the support we will see you next week oh i actually messed up i didn't even hit all our stuff that's all right oh yeah you didn't see see how hard it is when you're on the spot yeah i know i didn't think you're gonna give it to me i thought you'd be like no i have to take us out it's always man you take it all right you know going to give it to me. I thought you'd be like, no, I have to take us out. It's always me. I'm sick, man. You take it. Take it.

You know where to find us, crimeweeklypodcast.com. Our socials are at Crime Weekly Pod. Appreciate the love and support. We'll see you next week. Bye.