Crime Weekly - S2 Ep61: Caylee Anthony: Little Girl Lost (Part 7)

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Agatha Christie once said that a mothers love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity, it dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path. Most parents feel that their main job is to protect their children from the terrors of the world, and they take this job very seriously, so when we hear of a child that seemingly was tossed to the side and forgotten, we have a very negative and visceral reaction. After all, children are the future, and they deserve a fighting chance. Two year old Caylee Marie Anthony had this chance stolen from her, she had her life stolen from her, and to this day we still don’t understand why. Caylee disappeared on June 16th, 2008, and it would take six months for the world to find out what had happened to her. Her skeletal remains were found inside a laundry bag, discarded in a wooded area. There was evidence that little Caylee’s mouth had been duct taped at the time of her death, and all eyes were on her young mother, Casey Anthony, who had failed to report the toddler missing for over a month, and during this time, Casey was seen at nightclubs and bars, having the time of her life.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are diving into, what, the seventh part? Seventh part? Seventh part. And we thought it was going to be the last, but I put out an announcement that we actually have two more parts. So they'll be tonight and next week. Now, guys, you don't know what's happened behind the scenes for the past two days. This is Tuesday. We were supposed to record on Monday, but oh, what a mess. We've been having issues with webcams and software and all sorts of technological stuff that I don't understand, but Derek does. And we spent hours yesterday

trying to get everything to work. It really didn't. So, I mean, we don't need to go through the whole thing, but we did want to give a shout out to the Elgato capture card. Yes. Elgato. Thank you. I don't know if I'm holding that right. It's not a paid endorsement. They don't even know us, but I had their lights too. They've always just worked. And now we went with this Cam Link card. The video should actually look better to you guys. It should be in 1080p now. So if this works tonight, we don't have any issues. Thank you to Elgato for coming through because everything else we tried just did not work. It was a nightmare. New computers, you named it, like she said.

So we're fortunate to be with you here tonight. If you guys are thinking about starting a podcast. We're fortunate to be with you tonight. Like we just escaped like, you know, a volcano. You said it though, before we started, this is two weeks in the making. It feels like this was hard, but there are a lot of things you don't see behind the scenes that happen in every episode. And it's part of having a podcast.

You know, if it's technical issues with the mics and we're happy to be here, wouldn't have it any other way. Technical issue after technical issue. But we are here and we're ready to dive in. So I'm going to start off pretty much where we left off. And I'm going to bring us to December 11th, 2008, when the meter reader, Roy Kronk, was back at his normal route in the area of Suburban Drive when he once again wandered off the beaten path to relieve himself. Now, according to Roy, at this time, he again saw the suspicious gray bag and what appeared to be a small human skull. During his court testimony, Roy said, quote, I was standing behind it, so I was looking at it from behind,

and I still didn't why Roy did this. Yeah, it's a little odd, right? It's very, very odd. I mean, I understand at this point, like the police have not taken you seriously. They've come to the area. They've looked around. They said it's not what you think it is. They said that the area had been searched by law enforcement. So maybe Roy was like, okay, well, if it's not what I think it is, then what is it? And he wanted to get a closer look. I don't think it was nefarious, but knowing that it was Kaylee, it's obviously horrible. It's tough to hear. Yeah. And I would say we did hear the 911 calls and we know that he was trying and we're not here to bash Roy because if it wasn't for Roy, maybe we never find Kaylee. Who

knows? For real. And Roy has gotten bashed enough, man. And you had said before, you mentioned it in passing. There are some people out there that believe he could be involved and he just wanted to, you know, tell them where the body was to try to make it look like he wasn't involved. I don't think that's the case. That's possible. But either way, he didn't he didn't kill Kaylee. So to me, it's not relevant.

No, it's not relevant. And I don't think he's involved. I think he just was in there taking going to the bathroom and he saw something. But I will say, I hope it never happens to any of our listeners, any of our watchers. But if you come across something like this, and I'm saying it as almost like a joke a little bit, but don't be poking around with things because now your DNA is in the area. You could contaminate the crime scene even more. So try to disturb the area as little as possible and keep calling. Just keep calling and hopefully eventually you'll annoy someone till they come out. But don't go in there

and start poking around yourself because you could actually hurt the case. Yeah. I mean, I don't think any of our listeners would do that because they know better. Yeah, I would hope not. Roy should have been listening to Crime Weekly, man. That's it. He missed out. We weren't around yet. So we'll give him the pass. Yeah, I understand, Roy. So later that afternoon, the Orange County Sheriff's Office spokesperson, Carlos Padilla, announced that they had found a skull in that area been in that location a long time. It would have been very difficult to get into the swamp, let alone see something in there underwater in very dark conditions. There was a little gap in the air potato curtain, and ironically, there was a discarded yellow sign with black lettering for a daycare center just at that opening. But that was the only access point to the woods. You could have walked five feet to the left or the right and never seen it, but once the vines and overhanging vegetation were pulled back, the whole gruesome picture became disturbingly clear. End quote. Kaylee's

body was found in a wooded area on the corner of Hope Spring Drive and Suburban Drive, just 20 feet off the road. And if you remember, Hope Spring Drive is the road that the Anthonys lived on. The skull and a leg bone were located behind a log. The skull still had hair attached to it, as well as several pieces of shiny gray duct tape. The rest of the skeleton was found scattered about, distributed through animal activity, and they would be found in a radius of over 30 feet. Some of the bones found had evidence of being bitten or scratched at by animals, and some bones were smaller than your little finger. baby blanket before being placed into two garbage bags and then inside a gray canvas laundry bag with a metal reinforced tag and a brand tag identifying it as a Whitney design. The medical examiner's investigator, Stephen Hansen, collected the bones and articles of clothing found in the

area, such as a pair of shorts, size 24 months. He also found a foot to the left of the skull and the collar and tag from a size 3T shirt. Iron-on letters that appeared to have come from the shirt were also found, spelling out, here comes trouble. The remnants of a child's diaper were also collected into evidence. I don't know why, but in these true crime cases, when these things happen and they find a diaper, it's so heartbreaking to me. To know that this child was old enough or young enough to still be in a diaper. There's nobody more innocent or more vulnerable than a child that young. It's just completely devastating. Yeah. I don't know if you remember the story I told you, and we're not going to go too far off the beaten path, but I did a child molestation case. And in order to identify the

daycare worker that had molested the child, we had to pull out every single diaper from that daycare for the past two weeks. And it was hundreds. And eventually we did identify the person who had changed this girl's diaper. And I agree with you a hundred percent. Even as an investigator, I remember finding the diaper with blood in it. And it just told me how young this little girl was. And it makes you want to do some things that are not professional, you know, because I'm a human being. But I can completely relate to you.

It's a human instinct because it does put in perspective how young the victim was. And it's a real, it's a tough pill to swallow. Yeah. I mean, we knew how old she was, but the diaper, it makes it physically palpable, right? I do have a question and maybe you're going to hit it. The Winnie the Pooh blanket, was that ever tied back to Kaylee's home? We will get there. It was. We will get there. Okay. I'll wait. Because I do think that's important depending on what story you believe. A lot of this stuff was tied to Kaylee's home. I would assume so. Yeah. I mean, that's why

every time we go through this stuff, it's like, how did the jury hear all of this and still come back with not guilty? You know, I've seen that a lot in the comments about a foot from Kaylee's remains. Crime scene technicians found a red Disney bag in his book, Imperfect Justice. Prosecutor Jeff Ashton makes sure to clarify that the bag and its contents were never tied to anyone involved in the case. But the proximity of this bag to Kaylee's body and the contents of the bag were odd enough that he wanted to make sure he talked about them. And I also want to mention that Casey worked at Universal Studios. Universal Studios is basically part of the Disney sort of brand. It's right there. And she lived in Orlando. Disney is big in Orlando. So it could

either be like Casey brought this bag there because she works at Universal Studios, or it could be like this bag was there because it's Orlando and everybody's big on Disney in Orlando. It's a big thing. It's in like every store, every shop. Right. So inside that bag, they found a Gatorade bottle with what was described as a murky and translucent liquid inside. Also inside that bottle was a syringe. And when the contents were tested,

they were found to be consistent with a cleaning product that contained trace amounts of chloroform. The liquid and the syringe also showed the presence of four testosterone compounds. Ashton tried to trace the syringe back to the manufacturer, wondering if this substance had possibly been prescribed to George Anthony. Sometimes men who are getting on in age will get testosterone supplements from their doctor to keep them virile or whatever. But in the end, Jeff Ashton, the police, they were unable to find anything concrete that could tie

this bag back to the Anthony family at all. But it is interesting, right? It's interesting that that Gatorade bottle was there with the trace amounts of chloroform, like very close to her body. Yeah, that coupled with the fact that there were identifiable compounds found in the trunk of Casey's vehicle that were also chloroform. It just seems like kind of an awful coincidence. Right. But it could be just that. It could be a coincidence. It could's not what you know, it's what you can prove. So he might have a gut intuition that that syringe and that bottle is connected. But again, he has to be able to prove that in a court of law. He might assume that to be the case, but unfortunately, that piece of evidence was just not going to work for him because as he said, he couldn't trace it back. So these are a lot of the hurdles you face in the investigatory process, both as a prosecutor and as a detective. Yeah, I think he found it relevant enough to mention in his book, right?

So I think along the way, he possibly found something that made him believe it was connected to this case, but nothing he could prove or say publicly. So he just inserts in his book. But I think if it was completely irrelevant, he probably wouldn't have even mentioned it in his book. Why would he? Yeah. I'm sure there was a lot of things that happened during this case that were irrelevant that, like you said, didn't make the book. So if we're going out on a limb here without knowing him, I agree with you. I think he felt like there's probably something to it. So I can mention it here in my book, although I couldn't bring it up in court because it wasn't enough there. So I agree with you 100%. He thinks there's a correlation between it for sure. And that's honestly why I love when

the lawyers, the prosecutors and stuff write books about the case because there is stuff they can't talk about in court, but they do find a way to put it in their book with a lot of framework, a lot of precursor, like, hey, this isn't proven or anything, but I just wanted to tell you guys. So I do enjoy that. Not saying it's connected, but there was chloroform found in the trunk, chloroform found in the syringe. Not saying it's connected, but it could be connected. Well, there were obviously going to be questions about why it had taken so long to find Kaylee,

considering that this area had been covered during searches for the missing child. There's a lot of theories out there, but the true answer is most likely a combination of all of them. The area where Kaylee was eventually found, it looked very different in December than it had in August, when Roy Kronk had first called in. The Atlantic hurricane season, it usually lasts from early June to late November, and it affects the Atlantic Ocean, the Caribbean Sea, the Gulf of Mexico, and as a result, Florida as well. So Tropical Storm Cristobal had brought moderate rainfall to the area, causing some flooding on July 16th, and Hurricane Dolly dropped heavy rainfall on the area the week after. And then in mid-August, Tropical Storm Fay hit the Sunshine State hard, causing massive

flooding and even 36 deaths. Since the area where Kaylee was found was located on a downslope from the road, this area would have been under several feet of water in July and August when most search parties were out and about. And since Texas EquiSearch had specifically told its volunteers to avoid areas of standing water because there's a safety factor there, it's very likely that her remains would have gone undiscovered. But your friend, Jim Clemente, you know Jim, right? I know Jim very well. Great friend, great colleague, and a brilliant investigator.

Yeah, he's great. He's a former FBI criminal profiler, if you guys don't know. But he told Oxygen that he didn't know how thorough the search was to begin with. And I do like that Jim Clemente, I think he calls it like he sees it and he'd be calling people out all the time. He's pretty straightforward. He's a straight shooter and he don't care if you're law enforcement, civilian, he'll call out bad police work. And like I said, brilliant guy, little side note for him, for all you Criminal Mind fans, he is one of the writers or was one of the writers on that show when it was around. And he wrote a few episodes for Criminal Minds. Yeah. I really liked the JonBenet Ramsey thing he did. I know they got a lot of heat for

that, but I think they did a really good job. Him and Laura Richards. Oh, yeah. A lot of heat. A lot of heat. They got, yeah. A lot of legal issues, the whole nine. But he stands behind what he said in that episode. And he'll tell you that if you see him. I think that that is exactly the person he is. He says things, there's repercussions, but he doesn't back down. And I respect the hell out of that. I was actually with him in Indianapolis when he kind of, like right after he found out about the legal aspects of it.

Let's say he wasn't in the best of moods. But we did have a great dinner in Indianapolis. You know, you got to just, if you got good food, you got legal aspects of it. Let's say he wasn't in the best of moods, but we did have a great dinner in Indianapolis. You know, you got to just, if you got good food, you got to go with it. Can solve a lot of problems. You really can. So Clemente said, quote, in the FBI behavioral analysis unit, we have a child abduction response plan. And in it, it says to immediately search concentric circles around the last known sighting area, which was Kaylee Anthony's home. The problem is that since Casey said that Kaylee was last seen

far away from her home, I think it put people's minds in a place that Kaylee must be much farther away. End quote. Clemente also felt that many of the volunteers were not trained well enough, saying, quote, I don't think they were actually searching thoroughly. What has to be done is a thorough search, a forensic search, which doesn't mean that you just walk by or look at things or push things aside. It means you do a grid search and you literally take apart or open every child-sized container. Anything that a child's body could fit in, you have to open it up, end quote. Why do you think they didn't start searching around her home to begin with? You know, especially since the police seem to suspect her as soon as the case came on their radar.

Why did they sort of take Casey Anthony at her word and search kind of in different areas looking for Zannie the nanny and not really focus a lot on the area around her home? I don't really know because Jim's right. The search should have started around the home if they believed that she was involved and she had been at that house before, during, and after Kaylee's disappearance. It really doesn't make a lot of sense. He's right to put it simply. But if you want to speculate a little bit, we do think the investigator in this case did a pretty good job. And like you said, he knew Casey was not telling the truth. But I do feel like there might have been an element of them believing that Casey had some issues or whatever while she was away from the home and maybe someone that she was hanging around with might have Kaylee or might have done something to Kaylee. And therefore they were trying to track down the source of who could have been responsible for what happened to Kaylee, even if Casey was involved. Because looking from the outside, knowing Casey kind of as we do now in part seven of this, I feel like I know her.

It sounds like someone who, if you're to kind of profile Casey, if her boyfriend or someone she cared about did something to Kaylee accidentally, she might cover for them. Like, because she's that type of person. It makes no rational sense to you and I. But I do believe they felt like there was another involved participant and they were trying to track that person down. And again, even if they felt that way, as Jim said, the search starts at home and then expands. And they didn't do that. I don't know if they would have expanded all the way to that wooded area down the road, but it seems pretty damn close as I'm looking at the map. And you would think that wooded area would have been searched because what if Kaylee had wandered off on her own and just got over there? Maybe there's no

malicious activity behind it, but she got lost and they may have found her alive maybe if they did it immediately, because if she was just confused at where she was. But Jim's right. I have nothing to discredit what he's saying. He's on the money. On behalf of Casey's friends, I take offense at the unsavory character's comment because we all know that Casey Anthony was the most unsavory character out of her entire group of friends. Dude, like they're over here like unsavory, man. We're just hanging out.

Casey's the one who's crazy over here. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe it's the stigma of like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to go there. Is it because her boyfriend was from New York?

Is it the stigma of New York? Because they take offense at that too. No, not the stigma of New York, but I think like the club scene and things just get, I mean, from my experience, limited and I wasn't a club person, but I never had a good experience at a club. It always ended in someone, you know, taking something they shouldn't have or a fistfight in the parking lot. It never worked out for me. So you're not doing it right, man. I wasn't doing it right. An hour after the discovery of Kaylee's remains, which at that point had not yet been confirmed to be Kaylee, the police arranged for Casey to find out about the news so that they could observe her reaction. She was brought to the jail clinic to talk to the chaplain who, per jail policy, would give her the new information.

But while she sat in the waiting room, a breaking news report flashed on the screen. So if you're watching on YouTube, you will see the way that Casey reacted when she heard about a child's body being found half a mile away from her home. Basically, as soon as Casey heard the news, she crumpled she put her head down she began to cry now some people have said this is an indication of guilt she would have no way of knowing for sure that the child found was her child yet she seemed to know that it was kaylee therefore she must have been the one to put kaylee there people who believe this do not think casey was crying because she was devastated that her child was dead they believe she was crying because her hiding spot had been found and it was not going to end up being a positive thing for her. Others say that Casey could have instinctually known,

given the close proximity to Hope Spring Drive, that this was her child and she was mourning her. So we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back from that, I want to know what you think about the reaction and about whether this was her just instinctually knowing it was Kaylee or if it was her realizing that Kaylee had been found, which was going to make her case of being innocent much more difficult. All right, we are back. So what do you think about Casey's reaction? So to put it in my analysis, first off, you have to ask me, what do I think? Do I think Casey was involved? And I do. So whether it's Casey killed Kaylee or Casey was involved in the process of hiding Kaylee's body, I believe that could to be true. So I don't think it was a surprise for Casey to find out via the news that Kaylee was found in this specific

location. So then you got to go to the analysis of her reaction. And I agree with the people who think this is the moment where she realizes I might be in a lot of trouble here because she doesn't know the level of decomposition or anything like that or how I might be in a lot of trouble here because she doesn't know the level of decomposition or, you know, anything like that or how they might be able to connect it to her. So I think it's a moment where her reaction is genuine, right? Realizing that she could be in a lot of trouble and this might be her freedom disappearing on the screen right in front of her. But the reaction is more about self-preservation than it is about finding out it's the death of her daughter. Because as you alluded to in this breaking news, they didn't say definitively it was Kaylee. So I find that to be very important and very interesting at the same

time, because it seems like she knew it was Kaylee and And for extrapolate that out, the only way she would know that definitively would be if she was involved. I think it's a stretch to say she automatically connected the dots because it was in the proximity of her home. I don't, I'm not there. Maybe some are, but I think that reaction was more so like, if they don't have a body, it's going to be hard to convict me of murder. Now they have a body. I'm in trouble. That's my takeaway. What did you think?

I agree. Because if what the story she was telling everybody was that Zanny the nanny had taken Kaylee. That's right. If Zanny the nanny had taken Kaylee, how would she end up back by Hope Spring Drive? That doesn't make any sense. So they hadn't confirmed it was Kaylee. They wouldn't confirm it for quite some time. As you know, DNA testing takes a while to come back. And as soon as she heard the news report, and it's on

video, we're going to show it to our YouTube viewers. But as soon as she heard that news, she crumpled. She was crying. And I think, like you said, she was crying more for herself than for Kaylee. Yeah. Couldn't agree more. At the medical examiner's office, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner Gary Utz and Medical Examiner Jan Garvalia, henceforth referred to as Dr. G, they got right down to work trying to decipher what the evidence collected all meant. Dr. G also called in John Schultz, a forensic anthropologist and expert in the recovery and identification of skeletal remains, and he was from the University of Central Florida. She also called in Dr. Michael Warren, a forensic anthropologist from the

University of Florida who specialized in the analysis of children's skeletons. First, Dr. G sent the most intact bone that they had found, which was the tibia or the shin bone. They sent that to the FBI to verify that these were Kaylee Anthony's remains, but the results would not come back for another seven days, which is actually pretty quick, a pretty quick turnover for DNA results. And I'm sure it has a lot to do with the fact that this was Kaylee Anthony. And like I said, the entire country, even parts of the world were holding their breath at this point to find out, was this child Kaylee? Yeah, they can expedite it. They can put a priority on it. I will say from my experience

working with the FBI, they don't like to do that too often because every case is important. It may not be as publicized as others, but a lot of families are waiting for DNA results. So I will tell you from behind the scenes, do I think it happened? I absolutely do. You're 100% right. But they don't normally try to make that a common practice because, again, who's to say Kaylee's case is more important than someone else who's waiting on DNA results in another case that you just may not know about. So I will say that in their defense, there's usually not a preferential treatment. But I'd also be lying to you if I said that when a case like this comes across their desk,

they are not as interested in the results as you and I are. Well, I think with this case, too, there was sort of a ticking clock because Casey was in prison and they wanted to charge her and they wanted to get the trial going. But how can they do that when they when they don't have a body, when they don't have a lot of physical evidence? So in this case, the FBI may have been like, OK, we need to get this over there as soon as possible so that they can bring this to trial. And that may move you up the list a little bit. I understand. I think you're right. I think you're right. And I also think another element is as much as they may have believed Kaylee was dead, there's also a possibility that she's still alive and being held against her will. So they want to confirm or rule out this body as Kaylee

because if it's not her, then that means she could still be out there and still alive. And it just, it raises the expectations even more to find her as soon as they can. So you're right. There's multiple variables to it that would move it up the ladder automatically.

Yeah. And we are going to go over Kaylee's autopsy and the findings. You know, it's a sensitive subject. We will be as sensitive as possible. I know that this can be upsetting to some people. So if there's something that bothers you in it, skip forward a little bit, but we're going to try to keep it as low key as possible, because I know this is hard when it's dealing with a child. Yeah. It's tough with the kids, right? It's always tough. And we try to find that balance where it's like, we're telling you the story in its full entirety,

so you're getting the full picture, but also being sensitive to parents out there and also the families that might be listening to this. So yeah, I think that's a good safe trigger warning for anybody who might be sensitive to it to be prepared that some of this stuff does get a little sensitive. Yeah. So Dr. G found several overlapping pieces of duct tape over the lower skull, including the mandible, which is the lower jaw, and a portion of the maxilla. So the maxilla is the bone that forms your upper jaw, and it's made up of two bones, right and left, that fuse together right under your nose and above your lip. So the glue on the tape, it had disintegrated,

which left only the mesh fabric-like part of the tape, but it was still stuck to Kaylee's hair. Under the tape, all of the teeth were still present in the mandible and the jaw was still attached to the skull. Dr. G found this remarkable because she claimed that especially with the teeth of children, there are no roots to keep them in the jaw and they typically come right out. Dr. G said, quote, The duct tape told us that it was put there before she started decomposing.

The question is, was it over her nose? Was it over her mouth? It was certainly in that area. Could I have gone out on a limb and said she was suffocated with that tape? I can't say for certain, but the duct tape was put there for a reason. End quote. I wanted to go over something with you that we talked about a few episodes ago, a few parts ago when I brought up the duct tape and we were talking about the potential that the duct tape was added after the fact to make it look like a kidnapping. And you said

something that resonated with me. It stuck with me because you said, no, you know, I think that they wanted to make it look like, you know, I thought maybe they added the tape. And I think you said something along the lines of, oh, they put the tape around her head multiple times to make it look like a kidnapping because you would want to wrap it around multiple times so they couldn't take it off. Right. Yeah. And when you said that, it really struck a chord with me because I think you're right, but I think I would change it up slightly and say, and this is going to be, not the easiest thing to hear. I think because the tape was wrapped around her head multiple times is highly, highly suggestive that Kaylee Anthony was still alive and possibly coherent

when the tape was applied. Because if she wasn't, you would only need a small strip to kind of replicate the idea that, oh, she was kidnapped, she was duct taped. And like you see in the movies, you just put a little tape across. But the fact that it was wrapped around multiple times is highly suggestive that she was still able to pull it off if it hadn't been. And I also think not to get too far ahead of ourselves, this is a strong indicator that this is a homicide over an accident. And so the people that are in that camp, that this was done intentionally, whether it's chloroform, whether it's like manual asphyxiation, the tape was applied to hinder her ability from

breathing and speaking. Just something to point out. I know we might dive into it in the final part, but when you said that to me, no, you don't apply the tape once you apply it multiple times because otherwise you would just take it off. And I was like, you're right. You would just take it off, wouldn't you? So you would only do that if you were really trying to prevent the first person from removing

it. And as a And as a young two, three-year-old girl, you and I would be able to take that off. But I don't know if my daughters, even at six, that'd be a struggle for them. That's what I'm saying. Several layers of duct tape on top. Duct tape's pretty, I mean, it's made out of fabric, right? It is. It's made out of fabric. So it's pretty difficult to rip in general. It's supposed to be, you know, but then when you add one, two, three layers, you're reinforcing it to the point where, yeah, even like, you know, a smaller person who doesn't have a great deal of physical strength would have a hard time

removing that from their mouth. And it's terrifying to think about that on a two-year-old. Right. And we're not doing it to sensationalize that aspect of it, but the big question that we had was too, do we think this was accidental or intentional? And also, do we think Casey was involved in the hiding of her body if she wasn't responsible for Kaylee's death? And as we're trying to answer that question, I think this tape is so significant in trying to get closer to that answer as far as whether this was an accident where Kaylee would have already been dead. Let's say hypothetically, she drowns in the pool. Well, if she drowns in the pool and you're trying to make it look like a kidnapping, you throw a piece of tape over her mouth. If that's what you

want to do, there's really no need to reinforce it. That would gear towards the accidental theory. Tape around her head multiple times? I don't think so. Doesn't sound like an accident in that sense. So we have to talk about it because when we say whether we think it's an accident or not, to foreshadow it, this is a big part of my rationale behind it. I think it's for everybody it should be. Well, Dr. G certainly thought the whole she accidentally drowned theory was ridiculous, but we will get into that. Great. So a thorough examination was done to identify whether there had been trauma to the skull. They found none. The team also found rootlets growing into the bones of Kaylee Anthony. A rootlet is a small root. It usually remains underground. It lacks buds or leaves, and it typically anchors its parent plant to the ground. Now, these rootlets, they were very

interesting to Dr. G, who said, quote, what was really telling, and this is really important, is there were rootlets, little roots growing into the bone. When the roots are growing into the bone, the bone has to be totally decomposed first. Roots don't grow into rotting flesh, end quote. The evidence all pointed to Kaylee having been in that exact place for quite a while. Dr. G said, quote, These bones had to have been there for months, and there was nothing inconsistent with them being placed there about the time she went missing, and that's very important.

This was a child that was just dumped in the woods like a piece of trash, end quote. The rest of the skeleton was examined under a microscope to see if even the slightest fracture or sign of trauma or injury could be found. They found nothing. There was no sign of traumatic injury to the body of Kaylee Anthony. At this point, there was no cause of death, so the team wanted to attempt to test the remains for signs of substances, but this was not going to be easy because toxicology is usually done by testing blood or tissue, but poor Kaylee was completely skeletalized. All Dr. G had to work with was dry bones with no soft tissue on the bones or even marrow inside the bone. Dr. G said, quote, we're trying to leave no stone unturned. If there

was something that could be answered from this body, we wanted to find it, end quote. So she called in Dr. Bruce Goldberger, the head of toxicology at the University of Florida. They looked for illicit drugs, prescription drugs, over-the-counter drugs, and they also wanted to check for chloroform because they knew from the police and the media that there had been levels of that substance found in Casey Anthony's trunk. Dr. Arpad Voss had identified high levels of chloroform in a portion of carpet taken from the Pontiac Sunfire, and the levels were so high that it was the most prevalent compound discovered in the trunk. Dr. Voss would admit that extremely small amounts of chloroform could be produced by

human decomposition, but the amounts revealed in his test were a thousand times greater than he had ever seen from a decomposing body. After hearing about these results, Detective Yori Malik had decided to check the search history of the Anthony home computers to see if anyone in the house had attempted to buy this chemical online. Detective Sandra Kahn, a computer forensics investigator, she first checked Casey's laptop, the one that she had been using while she was living at Tony's, but there was nothing found. Detective Kahn's initial search of the Anthony's desktop computer also revealed nothing, but then she moved her attention from the active files

to the unallocated space on the hard drive. And you probably have a much better understanding of this stuff than I do. But to my understanding, when you permanently delete something from your computer, the information gets sent to another area of that hard drive where it can be eventually replaced with new information. But until then, it still remains on your computer, even though you think you've erased it. Am I correct? Absolutely nailed it. When you delete something from your computer and it goes, you know, you empty your trash, so to speak, it's still on the drive. And like you said, it's now allocated to be written over, replaced. And some people will go to the extent of formatting

their drives. That's how when you delete your card and you want to refresh it, you have to reformat it if you really want to clear it. But if you just delete it, it's still there for a short period of time and can be recovered by software that you can buy online. But law enforcement does have even a better software that is used in situations like this, but even more used in child molestation cases or pedophile cases where we can go to sex offenders' homes if they're like a level three, and we have permission to search their computers at any time. And we can use this recovery software to actually find if they've deleted things recently that they think are gone, but unless they've completely reformatted their drive, we can still find it. So a lot of applications.

So as the police, you have the permission, the ability to check any registered sex offenders computer at any time or level three? No, it's not only level three. There's a contingency for their release, right? Like they'll serve their time for their crime. And part of their release will be registering where they live, reporting to their probationary officer, notifying law enforcement if they move. And some high-level offenders also agree they sign over their Fourth Amendment right in some respects, where their right to have their apartment searched or their computer searched, they forfeit that right. And part of their release is that if there's any reason to believe that they might be involved in this type of activity, detectives can

go there unannounced and search the premises and the computer. And there have been multiple cases where I've been involved in that and that's happened and that person's probation is revoked, they're recharged, and anything we find there will add on to what they're already on probation for. Listen, this might be an unpopular opinion, but I love that. And I think it should go for every single child sex offender who gets released from prison. Because personally, I don't think if you've sexually abused a child, you should ever get out of prison. But if you do, you forfeit all your rights as a human being and you can be imposed upon at any time. And I guarantee you, if they had people like checking these people's houses on a monthly basis, a lot of them will be going back.

Yeah. I wouldn't disagree with that aspect of it. I'll say usually with the higher level offenders, the reason they're labeled that higher level is not only because of the crimes they committed, but the likelihood that they'll re-offend. The recidivism rate, right? Is that what's called recidivism rate? I have no clue, but if that's the word, I'll give it to you. You're probably right. I learned about that in forensic psychology, recidivism. Sure, sure. We'll roll with that. But yeah, so if they're more likely to re-offend, they're obviously labeled a higher level. I will say there are some cases that. But yeah, so if they're more likely to re-offend, they're obviously labeled a higher level. I will say there are some cases that I've had, and this might be an unpopular opinion

as well, where I've had cases where you have someone who's a sex offender, a registered sex offender, but you can look at the case and you see that this individual was 17 and the victim in the case was 15 or 14 or something. Again, none of it's good. I'm not condoning any of it, but it's something where they felt they thought it was okay and they might be wrong. Very rare that that's the case, but that's why we have the different levels of registration. And I do agree with you when you have a high level offender like that, a high level sex offender, who's on the registration list, I agree with you as well. The privacy and safety of the children in that area where that individual lives outweighs that person's privacy and security, in my opinion as well, because they've

already committed the crime. Now they have to deal with the inconvenience from their actions. And I do think that our responsibility ultimately lies with protecting the children in that area. Yeah, better to deal with the inconvenience than the lifelong trauma that these children will have to live with. Of course. Yeah. 100% agree. So we're about to dive in to specifically what Detective Kahn found on the Anthony's computer. And it's going to be an extensive conversation. So let's take a quick break now and come back and dive into that. Okay, so Detective Kahn, she found repeated references to the word chloroform in the unallocated space on the Anthony computer hard drive.

It turned out that on two days in March 2008, someone had searched for the word chloroform and even typed into the search bar how to make chloroform. Now, this is a very important linchpin in this case. Later during the trial, Casey's mother, Cindy Anthony, would say under oath that she had been the one to search for chloroform, but she hadn't meant to search for chloroform. She'd hadn't meant to search for chloroform. She'd meant to type in chlorophyll because she was worried about one of her small dogs eating bamboo leaves in the backyard and getting poisoned. But on the days that these searches took place, March 17th and March 21st, it appeared that Cindy Anthony was not at home at all, but she was at work.

Computer records revealed that someone using Cindy Anthony's credentials was logged into her work computer at the hospital for nine hours on both of these days. Computer expert Kevin Stenger testified that he had found no reference to chlorophyll in the searches done on the Anthony's computer, and the only reference to dogs was a search for fleas. The only searches for bamboo were in reference to furniture and a tiki bar. So this is ridiculous. I can't believe Cindy Anthony did this because there's no way she was searching for chlorophyll. If you're worried about your little dog eating bamboo leaves and getting poisoned, you would search for something like, can my dog get poisoned by bamboo leaves? You wouldn't search for chlorophyll. And I don't know if she's an

idiot or she thinks everyone else is an idiot or if this was some last ditch like Hail Mary attempt to save her murdering daughter. But it's disgusting to me. This is once again, going back to Cindy Anthony. It's beyond just her supporting Casey at this point. It's beyond even her enabling Casey at this point. She's actively chosen Casey over Kaylee at this time, in my opinion. You know, and it's something where I've been, I don't want to say a cheerleader, but I've been a big proponent of the idea that Cindy and George were not involved in the death or the disposal of Kaylee. I believe that I still right now as I'm sitting here, believe that, but this right here, and you've mentioned it numerous times

in the series, you've kind of alluded to this whole chloroform thing. I don't get it. I don't, I don't have, I could try to make a justification for it. And I think you might've hit on it. The fact that maybe she realized this looked really bad for Casey and deep in her heart, she was trying to cover for her because she didn't want to lose two people she loved. I don't know, no matter what the reasoning before it, completely ridiculous. Couldn't agree with you more. And so it definitely throws me off because I don't believe they were involved, but I can't come up with a reason why a rational person who wants to find their granddaughter would cover for anyone, including their own daughter, who might be responsible for the death of someone you care

about and is missing. So I don't get it, but I will tell you it's a head scratcher for sure. And there was a million other excuses she could have made that would have been more believable. And she had time before the trial to come up with one, but this is the one she went with. And I just, I can't, I can't even. I can see here, looking a little bit ahead, you're going to talk about George as well. Do you mention the fact, because I remember we talked about it again on a couple of previous episodes that it's important to note that as we just mentioned, this information, the search history was deleted. So not only did you have the dates in question, but it's important to note that it was deleted around a time and a date after Casey Anthony had been interviewed by police.

So she would have had to know. No, this was the Anthony's home computer, not Casey's laptop. Correct. And from what I was reading, and maybe it's wrong, maybe someone in the comments will correct me. From what I was reading when I was looking at some research, some of the Reddit stuff that they were saying, Casey had an interview with police. And shortly after that interview, that date and time in question was when the search history was deleted. And no one would know about that search history being there unless they were the ones who originally searched for it. So the fact that the search history was cleared shortly after Casey was interviewed by police on one of those occasions she was interviewed is interesting if it's true. If it's not true, I'm sure Stephanie, I can see you're already typing away and maybe someone will weigh in the comments, but I was seeing that multiple times on

multiple websites that have talked about it. But again, I didn't see it in a police report, so someone may discredit that. But as far as I know, that is how it was ultimately deleted and added to that space where the person who deleted it thought it was gone. So I'm reading right here. Computer expert John Bradley, who created the forensic software that law enforcement uses to recover deleted information, testified on Wednesday that the search history was deleted intentionally rather than by an automatic function of the computer. Bradley described the March 2008 web surfing activities, starting with the Google search for chloroform. He said the computer user also looked at information, often in Wikipedia, on alcohol inhalation, death, self-defense, hand-to-hand combat, head injuries, ruptured spleen, chest trauma, and internal bleeding. The user spent a total of three minutes and 11 seconds

on five sites related to chloroform, Bradley said, noting the user appeared to have gone intermittently to Facebook and MySpace pages. That were hers, right? That were Casey's, wasn't it? Yeah. So there is a correlation there. So wanted to put that out there because it's, again, if we're not driving home the point that Casey's involved yet, I don't, you know, just add this to the list. I think it's important to just, even if we don't know when it was deleted, the fact that it was intentionally deleted, because I don't go around deleting my web browsing history. Like I delete pictures and files and stuff that I don't need to free up space, but I never go into my internet or like Google or Safari or anything and like, oh, I need to delete my internet history.

Somebody knew what they were doing was wrong and they wanted to delete it before somebody saw it. And if Cindy Anthony was looking up chlorophyll, I can't imagine why she would think that was so important to delete. Correct. Exactly. She wouldn't have gone back to delete it because it's an innocent mistake. But someone who knows that maybe police are starting to look at them and remembers what they did that day, they would have a reason to go back and delete their search history for those days. So George Anthony, he wasn't actively employed in March of 2008, but he was working here and there. And on one of the days those searches for chloroform were conducted, he had worked a 10-hour day. And remember, Lee Anthony,

Casey's brother, he's got a girlfriend, he's got his own place. He doesn't live there. Unfortunately, the results of Kaylee's toxicology tests came back negative. No trace of any drugs could be detected in her remains. Dr. G said that although she strongly suspected that it had been an asphyxial death, possibly mixed with drugs, she did not have enough evidence to give a cause of death. However, Dr. G did give a manner of death, which she clarified was an opinion based on available information, And she listed the manner of death as homicide. So to just clear that up a little bit, like cause of death is something that needs to be scientifically supported. Manner of death can be the medical examiner's personal opinion based on what he or she has seen during the examination, et cetera. So she couldn't say whether Kaylee had been strangled or suffocated. We know that there was no blunt force trauma. We know there was no trauma on that child's body at all, but Dr. G couldn't say exactly what had caused the death. But she did say, based on the

evidence, this was clearly an intentional homicide, not an accidental death, not an accidental pool drowning, et cetera. Yeah, because they could also rule it homicide, suicide, accidental with the manner. That's usually where you have that. And the cause of death is the scientific means in which it was carried out. And they'd usually support that by the autopsy or like you said, toxicology results. So yeah, nailed it. She could have listed manner of death as unknown. She could have done that. Yeah. She felt strongly enough about it that she said homicide. Yeah. I've had that happen numerous times. We've talked about cases where that's the ruling. Robin Pope, you had that where it's like undetermined.

It's my worst words I can hear. Undetermined. And you know what you know, and you have some circumstantial evidence to support it. But if you have that ruling, you can't charge someone with a homicide if the death isn't ruled a homicide. It's that simple. I mean, you could try, but. You ain't going to win.

I've tried. Well, the next step was to check for fingerprints on evidence collected from the scene. Over 300 scraps of plastic bags had been taken into evidence, but there were no prints found. There were also no prints found on the duct tape or the laundry bag. So do you think that whoever left Kaylee there, allegedly Casey, do you think that she wore gloves to specifically not leave fingerprints? Because you'd think that on all that stuff, and I mean, they had bags and bags of stuff that they collected from this area where Kaylee was found. Out of all that stuff, not one fingerprint. That's suspicious to me that you wouldn't have one fingerprint.

Yeah, I mean, definitely could be gloves. That would be the simple explanation, right? If, you know, if they're wearing gloves, it would, it would allow, it would, it would inhibit the ability to transfer, you know, DNA to have trace evidence, but then you, you know, you could also have hair fibers that fall out of your hair, skin cells, all these things. I also think a strong contributing factor here is the elements. You know. You can have DNA that's there and with the elements over a month or so, whatever it is, that DNA will deteriorate and it could inhibit their ability to get anything that's usable. So I do think the elements in which the DNA is there and how it's preserved is a big contributing factor in finding anything useful.

But yeah, the simple answer, like you said, is just the person was covered up. They didn't drop any hair fibers. They had gloves on. That would be the obvious answer, but it could be also an environmental thing as well. And you've said before, water is forensics' worst nightmare. It's a nightmare. Because, and there was a lot of it. There was a lot of it there. Yeah. We've had cases where the victim's there, right? And you find them over a certain period of time where you have the victim and you know the victim didn't just die where they were, like there was a struggle. And because it took so long for us to find them, there's like no other DNA evidence showing them at any other spot in the room or in the wooded area. And it's because the elements got to it.

And so there's a lot of contributing factors. It's not like you see in television and the movies. There are some times where the animals' elements can really have a lasting impact on the overall investigation. So while looking at the duct tape under different wavelengths of light, FBI forensic investigator Elizabeth Fontaine saw what looked like the faint outline of a heart on the portion of tape that would have been directly over Kaylee's mouth. And this was a very interesting discovery for law enforcement because they had found a sticker in the shape of a heart at the place where Kaylee's remains had been found. The hair that was still present on Kaylee's remains was also tested and it matched the hair that had been found in Casey's trunk. In length, in color, and microscopic

characteristics, including that distinctive dark band located at the base, which they call death banding. Both sides began preparing for a trial that would capture the nation's attention and not let go. The prosecution had to figure out what angle they were going to go to trial with. In his book, Jeff Ashton said, When we combined the presence of chloroform with Casey's behavior during those 31 days, we couldn't believe that Kaylee's death had been an accident. As a prosecutor, as a parent, as a person, I couldn't see how any mother would act the way Casey did if the death had been truly accidental. As we sat around talking, all of us could relate one story or another about the panic that arose from even the momentary loss of contact with one

of our kids. There was no scenario we could imagine in which a mom could experience the accidental death of her child and then proceed to drive around with the dead body in her trunk, watch a movie and spend the night with her new boyfriend. Those did not seem like the actions of someone whose daughter had died in a freak and tragic accident. They seemed like the actions of someone who wanted her daughter gone. The reason Casey seemed so happy after Kaylee was gone was that she was happy that Kaylee was gone. End quote. Well said. We talked about this as far as scenarios. You talk about the journal that you had mentioned early on. We talk about maybe a sense of jealousy between the love that Cindy had for Kaylee and Cindy's concern for Kaylee and wanting to raise her and

take care of her. Casey maybe not feeling like she had received that as well. And then just her actions, the things that she had done before Kaylee's disappearance and after, still wanting to live that college life like she didn't have a child. So I think there's a lot to this and I think a lot of people feel the same way. And I'm in that camp as well. I think there's a lot to it. And I think a lot of people feel the same way. So, and I'm in that camp as well. I think there's a lot to it. So very well said. Yeah. I think there was some resentment there for this lost youth that Casey felt she had given up because of Kaylee. And I was a teenage mother. I understand those feelings, but I also never directed them at my child. It was like, oh, I wish I'd had more time, et cetera, et cetera.

But whose fault is it? It's my fault. I can't blame anyone else for that. Of course. Yeah. Well, you're a normal person. I think that's where the outliers come in, the people who, instead of taking responsibility, decide to blame others, which seems like a common pattern for Casey. And for her family, right? Yeah. And for the family, absolutely. And so in this situation, you might be looking at a case where Casey blamed Kaylee

for her inability to go and travel and do what she wanted to do and all these things. She was looking at Casey as a burden, all which is interesting because you have said numerous times that nobody had ever seen anything that would indicate she was a bad mother

or didn't love Kaylee. But why not just give her to Cindy and George then? They wanted her. They wanted Kaylee. They would have taken her. If Casey said, I don't want to be a mother anymore. I'm out. I'm going to go jet setting.

Cindy and George would have raised that child. I mean, I don't know if Kaylee would have been better off being raised by Cindy and George if she turned out like Casey, but they would have taken her. She would have still been alive. I agree. There was definitely outs. She had opportunities to still see Kaylee, but have her taken care of and allow her to go do the things she wanted to do if that's what she wanted to do. And that's why I said what I said on the previous episode about the idea that this might've been a crime of passion, a thing in the moment where she was frustrated by Kaylee's actions. We got a lot of feedback on that in the comments. And that maybe this is signs of someone who was frantically calling Cindy. Because I went back and looked at the calls. Not only did she call Cindy's cell

phone, she called Cindy's work in that small time window. And it was one of those things where if she was frantically looking for someone to tap in after work to relieve her babysitting duties of watching Kaylee, maybe she got really frustrated in the moment and was searching some things and decided to take action, which would explain why she didn't take Cindy up on her offer to just give Kaylee up to her, which she had offered literally the night before. I don't think it was a crime of passion. This is clearly, in my opinion, premeditated because, look, she's looking up chloroform in March, in March, months before. She's telling the parents and the family of Jesse Grund when Kaylee is still very young, under a year old, that Kaylee is going to hang out with Zanny the nanny. This was all kind of planned out.

So it's possible that Casey in the back of her mind was like, I might need a plan B. I might need like a parachute and I'll be prepared if I do. But in my opinion, if you have a plan B in your head to kill your child, you can't call that a crime of passion. That's premeditated all day. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of people going to agree with you. And I think there's a window where you can have thoughts of doing something and you're like, ah, but I would never do that. And then in the moment where you're upset, you do. But like I said, that's why this case is so polarizing, right? That's why Kaylee Anthony is walking free right now. I think a lot of the questions, and I'm sure we'll get into a part eight about the jury, but I think a lot of

the conversations that we're having here, our listeners, our viewers are having as well. They're asking the same questions. And so I think it's safe for us to assume that the jury members who are the jury's made up of people just like you and I, they're having those questions too. And if you can't find a definitive answer, that's where you end up having a hung jury or a jury that finds her not guilty because although they know something's off, they just can't pinpoint what it is and why that is. So I think these discussions that you and I are having, these possibilities, these scenarios, these theories, totally normal, especially when you consider the outcome that we have here in

this case. And if I'd been in that jury room, people would have been like, well, what about this? And I've been like, nope. Because I mean. Spoiler alert here. Spoiler alert. I have a feeling that you would have been interviewed by Baez for 10 seconds and then you would have been ruled out as a potential jury member. They would have been like, nope.

Because you would have been like, child, guilty. Yeah. Okay, you can go. Thank you. They never put me on juries, man. No, no. You would. Never been on one of my life get her out of here you would have been escorted out by court security immediately the sheriffs would have been pulling you out being being like get her out of here she's going to influence the rest of our jury no she gotta go don't let her near the courthouse for the next three months uh bias would would have been like, sir, not only is she not on the jury, but we'd like to file a restraining order.

Well, what I'm saying is you said like maybe you have a thought and then you act on it later. Right. But like if I have a thought, like maybe my husband pisses me off and I'm like, man, I'm going to kill this guy. I'm not going to my office and like, how do you make chloroform? You know, it's like a fleeting thought. I'm not putting the time and the research into figuring out how to execute it. And to me, that's the difference between a moment of frustration where you have a fleeting thought and then later you feel ashamed about it and premeditation. Like, oh, let me actually research this so when the time comes, I know how to do it. It's disgusting.

You ain't wrong. Listen, what you just said is the definition of premeditation, right? So it's like you're not wrong. And one of the precursors for first degree murder is premeditation. So it's like, yeah, I'm with you. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not going to sit here and die on that hill. No way. Not for Casey. No, no, no, no. Law enforcement descended on the Anthony home. And that night, Jose Baez met with George and Cindy Anthony, who had just flown back in from California after doing an interview with Larry King, during which Cindy passionately insisted that her daughter was innocent, saying, quote, there isn't a motive and they haven't found a motive. They told us they thought it was an accident and she's scared and tried to cover it up. They don't feel there's a

motive, end quote. Baez claims that when he went to meet with them, Cindy Anthony was still in denial about the child's remains belonging to Kaylee. When he told her that he had reason to believe it was Kaylee, he claims she and George went into the bathroom of the hotel room where he overheard what he thought was a quiet argument. And when they returned, George asked Jose Baez what the police knew. So once again, this is Jose Baez. And we have to remember that he's going to try to throw George Anthony under the bus later during trial. So I'm not going to say he could be making it up, but he could be making it out of, you know, into something that it isn't. They could have been arguing about a multitude of things. They could have been arguing about, you know, the fact that they'd been in California doing interviews. You know, they were doing so many media interviews during this time, by the way.

They were all over the place. It was literally going on everyone's show. It was kind of, I think it was a little much. They could have been arguing about anything. And when George comes out and says, what do the police know? That's not necessarily like, oh, what do they know? Because we need to know if they're on to us. It could just be like, what do the police know at this point? You know, it could be completely innocent. Absolutely. Hey, what do they know? Do they know who's responsible for this? Absolutely. Calling in forensic experts from around the world. And these are some big names that I think some of us will know. Dr. Timothy Huntington.

He was an entomologist from the University of Nebraska. And I believe off the top of my head, an entomologist is somebody who deals with bugs, right? That's correct. And then we have Dr. Werner Spitz, a forensic pathologist who's worked on a number of high profile cases, including the investigation into the assassinations of both JFK and Martin Luther King Jr. He also consulted on the JonBenet Ramsey case. I love him. I think he's very smart. Dr. Kathy Reeks, a forensic anthropologist from Northwestern University. Dr. Reeks actually inspired the character Bones from the Fox television series.

Bones, one of my favorite series of all times. And then there was Dr. Henry Lee, who's my hero and one of the foremost forensic scientists in the world. This is a team of heavy hitters, which again begs the question, like, how was Casey Anthony paying for this? Experts like these, they cost big bucks to bring in for a trial. It could have been the pictures that Jose Baez was selling to the tabloids and stuff, the pictures of Casey and Kaylee. It could have been from that. But how was her defense team paying for such, I don't know, really in-demand experts to testify on her behalf. I don't know for certain, but I think there's definitely some money coming in from interviews, things like that, whatever they're doing, photos. But I also think there's an element where people have a lot to say about court experts, not always good stuff. And I think there's some truth to what they put out there as far as they

can be bought, their opinions can be bought. But if we're just looking at it on a simple level, I do think there are good people out there. And when this case is getting national attention, both as a expert in whatever field you're in, whether it's entomology or forensic pathology, if you have an opportunity to weigh in on a case involving a young little girl and you believe one way or the other that you have something that can contribute to finding out what happened, you may do it for free or you may take a lesser fee in order to get involved. And so that may be the case here where there were some discounts handed out. I have had experts who I've worked with take discounts, vast discounts because of the case and because of their willingness to help. And then to be fair, there is also an element where these people are independently employed, privately contracted,

and what better way to get your name out there as an expert for future cases than to be on a case that's going to get national exposure. So I'm not saying that's what they did, but I think I'd be remiss if I didn't mention it. Yeah, that's possible. I can see how that's possible. So on December 18th, Jose Baez heard a news report that the same person who had found Kaylee's remains on December 11th had also called the police three times the prior August, alerting them to this area. In his book, Presumed Guilty, Jose Baez wrote, quote, The introduction of Kronk, the meter reader who found Kaylee's body, was a major turning point in the case. presumed guilty, Jose Baez, end quote. During the trial, Jose Baez would wield his Mack truck with careful aim at Roy Kronk himself. Baez presented his theory on what had happened with Roy. He said that Roy had seen the skull on August 11th,

but he didn't want to share the reward with the other two guys he was in the van with that day. So he returned to the area later and hid Kaylee's remains, hoping the size of the reward would increase. Now, this reward would eventually be raised from $10,000 to $255,000, and that is when Roy finally insisted that the police come out and check the area. Cronk's attorney argued that this was ridiculous because his client had repeatedly contacted law enforcement in August. Baez's response to this very logical statement was the following. On December 10th, the day before Kaylee's body was officially found, Kronk's car had broken down on his way to work, and he was told that he

needed to replace the transmission, which was going to cost him over $1,000. Because he was broke, Kronk figured that this was the best time to collect on his rainy day plan. Baez claims that Kronk asked one of the two officers who arrived on the scene, quote, do I still get the reward even though she's dead? And will my ex-wife find out about the money since I owe her child support? End quote. Kronk's supervisor would also testify that when he showed up at the scene, Kronk said to him, quote, Alex, I just hit the lottery, end quote. Jose Baez even suggested that Roy Kronk had killed Kaylee himself. He said that Kronk was obsessed with duct tape, had, but he used this distraction to raise reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors,

which leads me to ask, is that what he was doing with the swimming pool story as well? You know, sometimes these hotshot lawyers, they get such big egos, they kind of tell on themselves, you know, and then it's hard to trust them in future cases because they're like, oh, yeah, I never really thought that that was going to happen. I just used it to distract the stupid juror or the stupid jury pool. And, you know, now I got away with it. And then you're going to see him represent somebody else. And you may be on that jury and you may be thinking, is that what he's doing now?

And I just think that he should have kept his mouth shut on this. Yeah, I don't I don't disagree with you there. I mean, the whole saying, you know, throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. And, you know, disagree with you there. I mean, that whole saying, you know, throw shit at the wall and see what sticks. And you do get accused of that. But to go back on Kronk, because this is the first time I'm hearing about these things, which appear to be true, because I'm assuming it came from both the officer and Kronk's boss, you know, that these were verified of actual statements. Really stupid to say it. Not only that, really insensitive. But I don't think just because he made these insensitive comments that you can correlate that directly to him being involved in a murder. In fact,

I would argue that these statements are suggestive that he was motivated by money and not by the means to kind of throw off the investigators as far as with his possible involvement with Kaylee's murder. But yeah, very insensitive, not smart, and absolutely, again, definitely puts a bad taste in the jury's mouth when they're trying to evaluate Kronk as a potential witness. Yeah. Being stupid and insensitive isn't a punishable offense by law, though. So it's clearly like a distraction that's being used because the real answer should be who killed Kaylee, not who found her and how long was she there and what was his motive?

Because yeah, maybe he was motivated by money. It doesn't really matter though because we still have Roy Kronk to thank for finding Kaylee when everyone else had failed. So I don't see how it's relevant. You know, maybe he's greedy, stupid, insensitive. He didn't murder her. So why are we even talking about it, Jose?

Yeah, there's zero evidence that suggests he knew of Kaylee or Casey before the incident, that he had any connection to anywhere where Kaylee was last seen, that he would, you know, nothing. There's nothing there, no DNA evidence, no forensic evidence, nothing. But like you had laid out for everybody, basically what Baez did was take something that's true, as far as his statements to police, statements to his supervisor, use that to discredit him as far as a person of character, and then elaborated on that by saying, not that he can prove it, but hey, if he's willing to say things like this, is it possible that he killed her? Maybe. He didn't have anything concrete to substantiate that allegation or that possibility, but he basically

elaborated on what he could prove by saying, hey, look over here and consider the fact that maybe he's also responsible for something over here, even though I don't have anything to support it. Listen, in the sense of we may not like the guy, all those things, but that is what lawyers do. Not saying we agree with it, but that is what they do, which is kind of what you just hit on. Like, it's hard to believe them going forward if you know they're implementing those tactics. And more importantly, they're good at it. They're good at it.

And so it's like, Jesus, damn, that's a good, that's a good move. And we know again what the outcome of this case was. Do I think Baez's actions and his tactics in the trial contribute? Of course they did. So yeah, it's definitely part of the game when it comes to the whole process of the investigation, to the arrest, the trial, to the verdict. This is all components of whether you get justice or not. I mean, it was an effective move, but you can't trust him. No. I will say something.

I got to be very careful what I say here. And I haven't even told you this story, but I'm going to say it. I got a DM from somebody who is friends with Baez. And I was able to kind of verify it based on some of the other information they said. And I'm not going to say their name, nothing like that. But they were just saying, hey, I heard you and Stephanie talking about Jose and I want you to know like friends with them. And he's actually a pretty good guy. You know, he's a smart guy. And I don't agree with, you know, his involvement with that case. I personally feel like she did it. And, you know, although

he's never specifically talked about the case with me, I will tell you that he does separate his job from who he is as a person. And I think he's great. And my response to that person right here, I did respond to him in the DM. But also it's like he may be a good person, but that's still his job. And it's still reflective of who he is as a person as well, in my opinion. I don't just take off the jacket of what I do at work or here on the podcast and I'm absolved of anything I say or do. But it was cool. This person was nice, not trying to spin us a certain way or anything, just giving us another perspective. But I thought it was interesting because I did do a little

research and I see how they're connected based on what this person was saying. And so it was an interesting story. I'll have to tell you more later, but it was an interesting story. I'm sure he's a great guy. I don't like him, period. And I don't need to. Jose Baez doesn't care if Stephanie Harlow likes him, right? Yes.

He doesn't care. Same thing here, yeah. But exactly what you said, like I can't separate what a person does for a living with who they are as a person. And I was arguing about this with my husband yesterday because I hate pharmaceutical companies. I think pharmaceutical companies are evil.

And I know that they jack up prices on medication that people actually need to live. And I'm like, pharmaceutical companies are evil. And he's like, yeah, but not everybody who works for a pharmaceutical company is evil. And I'm like, yeah, probably not. But if you know what's happening at that company and you continue to work there, like, yes, I think it does reflect a little bit negatively on you. Am I gonna hold it against you?

Am I gonna, you know, go and attack you? No, but like in my mind, I don't necessarily trust you. And that's just how I operate. Not everyone is like that. But even Chris Watts had friends, you know, we have to remember that the most evil people in the world, Scott Peterson, Chris Watts, Jack the Ripper, they all had people who thought they were great guys and who were friends with them. It's just how you look at somebody and subjective.

But no, I don't like Jose Baez. No, I don't. Because I will always affiliate him with this. Yeah, I'm with you. I think that's what he's known for. And I said to this person, you know, we do have to admit, like, he's part of the reason he's so famous now is because of this case. So he made his bones on the back of Casey Anthony in this case and the outcome of it. So you have to bear the burden that comes with that fame, which is your actions that helped, if you believe that Casey's responsible, get away with murder. So that's part of it. I do want to say one thing

about defense attorneys, though, that's been bothering me. I don't dislike all defense attorneys, but I do dislike the ones that use the tactics that Jose Baez has used, where he not only tries to defend his client, but now he's pointing fingers at possibly innocent people to try to pin these crimes on them. I have a big problem with that. I'm a big live and let live person. So if you want to defend, you know, child murderers, then go for it. I'm not going to tell you what to do. But when you bring innocent people in like Roy Kronk and, you know, possibly George Anthony and Lee Anthony, too, like Lee Anthony, you know, hasn't done anything. Guys pretty much tried to keep out of it and be low key. And you're going to literally say things

that are going to destroy their reputations, their careers, their lives. I've got a problem with that. I think it's evil and I don't like it. So that's where my issue comes in with it, with the defense attorney thing. But let's take a quick break and we will come right back. So as soon as Kaylee's remains were found, the police sealed off the Anthony home and they began removing items. They did find several prescription medications in the home, all under the name Cynthia Anthony or Cindy Anthony. We have some medications for high blood pressure, an opioid pain reliever, a muscle relaxer, a diuretic, an antidepressant, an antibiotic, an anticonvulsant that's also used to treat panic attacks, and a medication for acid reflux. But no Xanax, right? The closest thing I could find to Xanax would have been the clonzapan,

which I think is like Klonopin. Andanax would have been the Klonzapan, which I think is like Klonopin. And that appears to have been prescribed to Cindy to prevent or treat panic attacks. The crime scene techs were specifically looking for items that would match those found at the site where Kaylee had been found. So they wanted to collect all the tape from the home to try and match it to the tape found on Kaylee's mouth. They wanted to collect garbage bags and laundry bags from the home to do the same. They also looked for chemicals that could be used to make chloroform. Usually that would be bleach and acetone. Now, apparently they did find bleach, but no acetone, which I have a hard time believing. Like there wasn't one bottle of nail polish

remover in that house. Nail polish remover has acetone in it. There wasn't one bottle of nail polish remover in that house with Cindy, with Casey. I've seen pictures of Kaylee. She's got nail polish on her fingernails. So I don't know if they looked hard enough, but we'll see. Detectives did find a laundry bag in the home and it was Whitney brand. Now remember the laundry bag that Kaylee was in was also Whitney brand. These laundry bags were sold at Target in sets of two, one cylindrical and one rectangular. The bag that Kaylee had been found in was cylindrical, and its rectangular counterpart was found in the Anthony home. Later, Casey would admit that she had, at one time, been in possession of both laundry bags, but she'd used the cylindrical one to hold a bunch of colorful plastic balls that her neighbor, Brian Berner, had given her for

Kaylee to play with. She had no idea where it was now. They had also located gray duct tape stuck to the vent hole of a red gas can found in the Anthony's shed. This was one of the gas cans that Casey had stolen from her father when she ran out of gas, and the tape was the same brand as the duct tape that had been found on Kaylee's mouth and skull. The brand was Henkel, apparently not a very well-known brand. A chemical comparison of the two pieces of tape showed that they were identical in composition and they had been manufactured in the same way. There was no DNA found on the tape from Kaylee's mouth, however. In Kaylee's bedroom, the detectives were faced with a cute and coordinated Winnie the Pooh theme. The blanket that her remains had been found wrapped in

featured Pooh Bear and Piglet, and detectives found this identical pattern everywhere in Kaylee's room. Her bedding, her curtains, the skirt on her crib. Cindy Anthony told the police that the blanket Kaylee had been found in was part of the matching set they had used to decorate her room while they were happily awaiting her arrival into the world. So I don't, I don't, I'd like to sit here and weigh in on this, but I think I speak for 99.9% of our subscribers or people who watch. I don't really think I have to. It's pretty self-explanatory. I feel like

I'm just going to be reiterating what you just said. So I'll just, I mean, just to emphasize it, the patterns, the characters match the bedroom bedding, the duct tape, the composition was the same, and they have the ability to do that. In fact, it's too bad they didn't have the tape roll because they would be able to match up the two tears. But I mean, this is pretty close to that. And then again, you have the laundry bag. As you mentioned, there's partners to each other.

There's cylindrical and then obviously rectangular. You just mentioned that all. Circumstantial in and of itself, but together it's very compelling evidence and suggestive that whoever or whatever happened to Kaylee happened in that home from the putting her into the laundry bag to the taping of her head to the wrapping of the blanket, all items that would be found in the Anthony home. So back to what you said earlier about the Zanny the nanny, you know, theory, this would have been a situation if, even if it's not Zanny the nanny, it's just a random kidnapping. This person would have had to have kidnapped Kaylee, snuck back into the Anthony home, taped her up with a duct tape roll that was found in that home, or just happened to pick the same duct tape roll that was manufactured and created by this brand, found a similar laundry bag that sold at Target that happens to be in the Anthony home.

And oh, by the way, maybe the blanket Kaylee could have had with her, but it doesn't seem like she left with that blanket when George Anthony saw her leaving that day. Well, she had a book bag. And she had a book bag. And she had a book bag. So like it could have been in there, but I would assume, let's say the blanket was in there. I'm assuming the duct tape and the laundry bag wasn't. So, you know, you want to rule out the Winnie the Pooh blanket that maybe she was carrying that around. Fine. I'll give you that one. Duct tape and the laundry bag. Nope. You lost me. And then the fact that she was found in such close

proximity to the home. Guys, you know, we're all the fact that she was found in such close proximity to the home. Guys, we're all saying the same thing here. I think everybody's saying the same thing. So I'm not going to go any more than that, right? I mean, that pretty much sums up what you just said, right? Yeah, it's pretty freaking blatant, I think. The laundry bag thing to me is ridiculous. It comes in a set of two. One's missing. Kaylee was put in that exact same one that's missing. But no, it was a laundry bag. I stored a bunch of colorful balls and I have no idea where it went. Come on, man. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm with you. I got nothing else to add to that. It tells its own story. On December 20th, CSI techs and investigators returned to the house on Hope Drive. And this time they were looking for the clothing that Kaylee had been wearing

when George Anthony had seen her leave the house on June 16th. Remember, George had said that she was wearing a blue jean skirt, a pink shirt, and white shoes, but that was not the clothing that had been found near her remains. In Casey's bedroom, law enforcement found a roll of heart-shaped stickers

that were similar in size to the one found at the crime scene, as well as the sticker outline found on the duct tape that covered Kaylee's mouth. This sticker, this heart-shaped sticker, to me is very important. Do you agree? Why do you, before I weigh in, why do you think it's important? I want to see if we're on the same page. I mean, I think it's important to pointing at the fact that Casey did this, allegedly,

right? Casey did this. The same sticker found in her bedroom amongst her scrapbooking things. Why would you wrap duct tape around your child's mouth three times and then put a heart sticker over her mouth? So I agree with the reason why you're saying it's important. I think it's important because I kind of like the duct tape and the laundry bags. These are all items that are found in the Anthony household, right, at a later date. So again, it suggests that whatever happened to Kaylee happened in that home, okay? And we know who was there, who wasn't, who was capable and had access to the home, who didn't. As far as the sticker on the mouth directly, I mean, that's some diabolical shit, right? Like if you're thinking that that's what happened, I'll throw out another scenario.

I'm not saying I believe this or whatever, but I'm just saying that another scenario, how the sticker could have got on there. I always wonder, I see cases that I've personally worked on where facts, and I'm doing quotations for people listening on audio, where the facts come out about the case that I know which ones are true and which ones are not and things I can say and can't say. And there are things that are out there to this day that I know are not true or are embellished or slightly off. And do you know, before I go down this path, if the picture was ever shown of the sticker on the duct tape or anything like that before I continue? What do you mean? To the jury? To the jury or to anybody. Is there any evidence that we can see the sticker?

Yes, it was shown to the jury. They testified about it in court. Yeah. Okay. And if I remember correctly, the heart wasn't still on the duct tape. It was in the vicinity of Kaylee's body, but there was a shape on the duct tape that suggested the sticker was on there at one point. Yeah. So you know when you put like a bandaid on and it's been on for a while and then you rip it off, you have like little sticky pieces left on your skin. It was like that in that outline. Okay. Got it. So I definitely think it happened. I definitely think the heart was on there. What I would like to see is how the heart was on there. Was it right on the mouth? Was it more to the left? Because the reason I say that- It was right over her mouth.

So it could be what you're saying, which is the diabolical side of it, like that sticker was put on afterwards, which is just- It was put on afterwards. Absolutely. That is the suggestion. That is the belief. Could it be possible that during a struggle or doing something like that, the sticker, the adhesive got onto the duct tape and stuck to it? I'm just throwing it out there. I'm not saying I believe in it, but I'm just throwing it out there. Right dead center on her mouth, right on her mouth. Like how convenient.

That's why I brought it up. Like we know it was dead center. We know it for certain. Yes. Elizabeth Fontaine, she's the one who did it. She looked at it under like this infrared light. They had the duct tape. They have like forensic ways of telling where it was located on her head etc etc and elizabeth fontaine

said they removed it what do you mean well like they removed like i shouldn't say removed it but they basically separated it put it out on whatever lab table or whatever they did to kind of see where it was as far as measurements and how it would wrap around her head, all that stuff. Exactly. So Elizabeth Fontaine, the CSI tech, who is very, very well known, and she does a really great job. Like nobody can say anything about her work. She says that when she puts this under, you know, the light, she sees this heart outline, a heart-shaped stickers found close to the body, probably came off due to the rain, right?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The heat too also, the humidity. There's a roll of heart stickers that are the same shape and size in Casey's bedroom. Yeah. So it is diabolical. Yeah. I'm going to suffocate you, but I love you.

So what you're saying is not only is there a connection to tie it to the perpetrator, however this happened, it happened in the Anthony home because the roll of stickers, right? But also you're taking it a step further by saying, hey, this contributes even more to the idea that this was intentional and there was a really devious, demonic mindset behind it. I don't know. I don't know if there was, I think it was intentional. I don't know if it was devious or demonic or if this is what I

think is probably more likely happened. Casey allegedly wrapped this duct tape around her child's mouth. Kaylee suffocated, most likely alone because Casey doesn't have the balls to sit there and watch it happen. And then when she was dead, Casey was like, oh, I feel so bad. What a loss. And she put the sticker over her mouth as some sort of misguided endearment. I don't know. Like, mommy loves you. You know, I don't think it was done like I'm so evil for doing this. I think it was Casey's twisted way of trying to make herself feel better about what she had done. I had to do this, but it didn't mean I didn't love her kind of bullshit. It enrages me is all I will say

about it. Yeah, no, I don't. I mean, I don't know. I think I see a lot of comments about the heart on this on the duct tape as well in our comments on Reddit, different places on our Instagram. So it's definitely something a lot of people harp on and talk about. And it bothers many of our listeners, many of our viewers, as it should, as it should. So it's interesting. And unfortunately, I think the right answer is we'll never know. We'll never know for certain what it actually represents. I think at minimum, from an investigatory angle, we want to go with the detective perspective. The one concrete thing I think you can take away from it is that, again, the elements found at the crime scene where the body was found. Here's another item that isn't only in the Casey Anthony home,

you know, in the whole country, but highly unlikely that it would be found in there if it didn't actually belong to that same sticker roll. And just one more checkbox to say, whatever happened to Kaylee happened before she left that home. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the one thing we can all agree on that that's, you know, you can take that away from the sticker, the duct tape, the laundry bag, et cetera. No, because Casey will just be like, no, when I brought her to Zanny's, I brought her with a laundry bag and a blanket and duct tape and heart stickers. Did you say Scott Peterson when you brought her to? Oh, no, I'm sorry.

You said Casey. My bad. Yeah. Because he would do the same thing. I was being sarcastic. Oh, I was saying. I'm like, what the hell? Yeah, exactly.

He would do the same thing. You could literally be like, hey, Casey, I got your picture right here, you know, leaving the house without any of those items. Oh, yeah, but it was the angle. I had it on the other shoulder. You just couldn't see it. That was a deep fake. Yeah, there would be something. So, yeah, no matter what, unless you literally have video of her committing a crime like in the act, even then she'd probably try to find a way to spin it on you for, hey, why were you filming me, though? That's against my right. She would never admit to it. She'd be like, that's a girl that looks like me, but can you prove it is me? Well, those are the clothes you were wearing when you left your house.

Anybody could wear. I actually gave my friend those clothes. That's probably her. Like, try to pin it on someone else, man. That's why Casey and Jose Baez are honestly perfect for each other. But get this, man. That's why Casey and Jose Baez are honestly perfect for each other. But get this, man. You had admitted yourself after hearing this as a person who's worked in law enforcement, who's investigated cases. This is circumstantial evidence, but it's compelling when all placed

together. And it tells you that Kaylee was killed in that house, right? Well, listen to this. Jeff Ashton claims that when they returned to the home on December 20th for the second search, George and Cindy Anthony were visibly annoyed and borderline hostile. He claims that they were angry that Kaylee was dead, and they were also angry that Casey was still their only suspect because apparently they still believed their daughter was innocent. Well, at least they're consistent in how they have viewed and treated Casey Anthony her entire life. It's never her fault. She's never done anything wrong. It's always the other people who are just

they're viewing her in the wrong light. She's misjudged. So I want to talk about the chaotic mess that George Anthony became in the wake of his granddaughter's disappearance. But first, we're going to take a quick break. I think this is our last one, right? This is the last one. All right, we're going to take our last break and we'll be right back. So, on day 32 of Casey's trial, the defense called a Crystal Holloway to the stand. Now, Crystal had been one of the volunteers who'd been helping to search for Kaylee before her body was discovered. Crystal claimed that during the search for Kaylee, she was having a sexual relationship with George Anthony. In court, she said, quote, I initiated the sexual contact around August of 2008, and we had sex about 12 times. Cindy was always home, sedated, nonstop sleeping. I was

giving him sex and money, about $4,000, because he said he couldn't pay his bills, end quote. Crystal also went on to tell psychiatrist Keith Abloh, quote, George was like a kid acting out behind the back of his controlling mother. Cindy was everything in that family. He's a wuss. She was always taking control of the conversations. George always looked to her and deferred to her. She's a controlling bitch and she's ice cold. End quote. Crystal Holloway also claimed that at some point during the search, she felt that George knew Kaylee was dead, but they were keeping everything going because it was bringing in money, especially from networks who were paying the Anthonys for interviews. Crystal claimed that

in November of 2008, George Anthony came to her home and confided in her. His eyes filled with tears, and he told her that what had happened to Kaylee was an accident that had spiraled out of control. Now, George Anthony denied ever having a relationship with Holloway. He referred to her as just another volunteer. When he was presented with a text message that he had sent her where he said, quote, just thinking about you, I need you in my life, end quote. He admitted that he had sent it, but he said it wasn't flirtatious. He just meant he needed her and all the rest of the volunteers in his life. Okay, George. George is Scott Peterson, just less smooth. Yeah, the similarities are scary.

I need all the volunteers in my life. I love them all so much. But I only texted one of them to tell them that. George also insisted he had never told Crystal that Kaylee's death had been an accident. Crystal claims that when she began to pull away from George, he attempted to take his own life. On January 22, 2009, the Anthony family lawyer, Brad Conway, contacted the police and reported George Anthony missing after he failed to show up for a meeting. Conway told the 911 dispatcher that George had left the house with several bottles of medication and pictures of his granddaughter, Kaylee. Law enforcement sprung into action and they located George at a seedy Daytona Beach motel where they found him despondent. With him in the room was a five-page suicide letter that he had written addressed to his wife

Cindy. It read as follows, quote, Cynthia Marie, as you get this letter, this should be no surprise that I have decided to leave the earth because I need to be with Kaylee Marie. I cannot keep going because it should be me that has gone from this earth, not her. I have lived many years. I am satisfied with my decision because I have never been the man you, Lee, Casey, and especially Kaylee Marie deserved. I have never been the man that any of you could count on. I have always let each of you down in more ways than I could remember. I do not feel sorry for myself. I am just sorry I burden all of you the way I have. My loss of life is meaningless. I cannot be strong

anymore. Kaylee Marie, our granddaughter, I miss her. I miss her so much. I know you do too. You were always the one that provided for her. What did I provide? I blame myself for her being gone. You know, for months, as a matter of fact, for a year or so, I brought stuff up only to be told not to be negative. I sit here falling apart because I should have done more. She was so close to home. Why was she there? Who placed her there? Why is she gone? Why? For months, you and I, especially you, always questioned, why? I want this to go away for Casey. What happened?

Why would she not come to us, especially you? Why not Lee? Who's involved with this stuff for Kaylee? I'm going crazy because I want to go after these people Casey hung with prior to Kaylee being gone. That is why I got that gun. I wanted to scare these people, you know? They know more than they have stated. You cannot sugarcoat, kid-glove these people. They need hard knocks to get info from. Sure, that will not bring Kaylee Marie back. But

was Casey threatened? You know, Casey does not deserve to be where she is. I miss her. I miss her so much. I'm worried for her. Her personal safety is always on my mind. I cannot function knowing our granddaughter is gone. Kaylee Marie never had a chance to grow. I have taken what meds was given to me with alcohol and I am ready to give up. As I can tell by my writing and thinking, I am getting very stupid. Wow, what a word. Stupid. Yes, I am. Again, I do not feel sorry for myself, but yes, I am stupid. Cannot deal with this stuff anymore. The loss of Kaylee Marie.

The loss of Casey. The loss of us, Cynthia Marie. The meds. I am ready. Saying goodbye. Please understand it is for the best. I do not deserve life anymore. Any more us.

You know, I never got to say goodbye. I'm at this place and all is getting fuzzy and my writing is all over the place i love you i am sorry i will take care of kaylee once i get to god i am so tired at least i shaved today wow i'm tripping out i am sorry i love you cynthia marie kaylee here i come end quote there's a lot there um first thing I when I was doing some research for b-roll and for the last episode like finding video to put in the uh to put in the episode I came across a cross-examination of uh George Anthony from Jose Baez it was really if you guys haven't seen it definitely go check it out it's's on YouTube, widely available.

But Jose Baez really goes hard at George Anthony, and he questions him a lot about this suicide and what it really means. He had already at this point in the trial made allegations that George Anthony had molested Casey Anthony. And he was going back and forth with him. And I'll spare the details. But essentially, like, you know, was this remorse? Was this out of, you know, some regret you had about the things you had done to Casey? And, you know, is it possible that you could have done this to Kaylee as well? And he was insinuating a lot of things. And George was really pushing back on him. He was very it was a very it was respectful, but it was also very assertive.

He was assertive. He was assertive. He was like, you're you're trying to paint me in a light that I'm not. And then he brought up this. He brought up, isn't it true? You tried to commit suicide and George took a really deep breath. And he was like, yes, yes, sir. That is true. So I didn't know where Baez was going with it. But for me, I think you could look at it. It does seem like he genuinely tried to kill himself. Nobody has stated that this was a grasp for attention. He literally tried to kill himself. And so you would think, and it's not a guarantee, but in most situations like this, where the person is getting everything out there before they meet their maker, so to speak,

it's usually a dying declaration where they'll confess to the things they did. Not to go off track here, but as we recently learned, we're not going to do an episode on it, but Brian Laundrie's notebook was found. They examined it. There is admissions of being responsible for Gabby's death. Brian Laundrie knew he was not coming back. He knew he was going to kill himself. He knew he was going to take his own life. So why not just tell the truth? To get Casey out of trouble. That's his last way that he can be there for his family because he's never been the man they deserved. And now he can do something good. He could have admitted to it even if he didn't do it.

And yet he didn't. He didn't admit to doing that. He didn't admit to doing anything to Casey. He didn't admit to any aspect of it where he could have potentially been involved with the death or for what people more believe is the coverup and the hiding of Kaylee's body. And this would have been the opportunity to do it. Listen, me and Casey were sorry for what we did, his reasoning for doing it, his involvement. This would have been the time if you're about to go meet whoever you believe in, this is your last opportunity to clear the deck. So, you know, legal things are out the window. But to this point, when he thought he would be dead, he still believes that his daughter, Casey, is innocent and that she is being coerced or being threatened by an outside entity, which is kind of interesting because that's what I hit on earlier,

right? Like they believe there's someone in her circle or someone that's controlling her and she's taking the fall for it. It appears that he truly believes that. And also, you know, he's going back to the fact that he could have been there more to help prevent this, which I think is suggestive that he didn't have any involvement with the disposal of Kaylee's body because it seems like he genuinely doesn't know who's responsible. Really interesting stuff. I think it actually strengthens the case that he wasn't involved. But if you go watch that YouTube video, Baez has a completely different perspective

on this and he's able to contort it and fit a narrative that maybe the reason for him wanting to commit suicide was the guilt from not only what he did to Casey, but maybe his possible involvement in what happened to Kaylee. It was really, really a fascinating cross-examination. I strongly recommend you check it out. I felt it was very uncomfortable. I'm not a big fan of George Anthony, obviously, but I would never use somebody's suicide note against them. Like, I wouldn't do that. Clearly. I mean, if if something was in that suicide note that was obvious, like I did this. Yeah. Then. Yeah. Then that's an admission of guilt. Go ahead. But to take this man's words and twist them to make them fit some weird narrative to get this very guilty girl off the

hook for for murdering her daughter. It's gross and uh the one thing that i did find interesting in the note was he said for months as a matter of fact for a year or so i brought stuff up only to be told not to be negative and i think that's very telling because i think it was george anthony the whole time because he was the one who checked up on casey back in the day when you know she said she was working at sports Authority and he was like, I'm going to go check it out. She's not there. You know, he was checking up on her and Cindy was like, why are you checking up on her? Stop doing that. That's Cindy telling him, be quiet. Don't be negative. Don't say stuff like this. I think it's Ben George the whole time who's been pushing back against this. Yet in the

following paragraphs, he's like, who did this? Who did this? Why wouldn't Casey come to us? I'm going to go and get her friends. So I think he's torn between what he knows and what he wants to believe. Yeah, what he wants to believe. Yeah. Yeah. And we know that to be the case because you have police interviews that he was basically behind the scenes being like, you know, I think I know where this is going. Any heads up you can give me be greatly appreciated. So yeah, I agree with your assessment. He definitely brought up some scenarios that involved Casey being the perpetrator and Cindy didn't want to hear it. Yeah. Cindy was like, shut up, man. Shut up. I truly believe she didn't want to hear it, which would explain why she's taking responsibility for chloroform searches,

even though it wasn't like an innocent misunderstanding. She was clearly just flat out lying. I allegedly, but yes, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Allegedly. But she was just flat out like taking responsibility for something that. Under oath, she's willing to go to prison or jail for her philandering lion trifling daughter.

I really think that they got to a point, especially Cynthia, where they felt like willing to go to prison or jail for her philandering lion trifling daughter. I really think that they got to a point, especially Cynthia, where they felt like the police was out to get their daughter. And it went from being like, hey, help us find Kaylee to you're just trying to pin this on our daughter and you're missing and you're not looking for the real killer right now. Well, they're delusional. They're delusional. Yeah, I think that's what it got. But are you surprised, again, to go back to what you did Delusional. They're delusional. as far as what happened after Kaylee was found. But it's really not that surprising when you consider what we talked about for almost four hours, as far as how they handled situations where Casey was not being truthful

or doing something she shouldn't do. There was never accountability. There was always a justification and then sometimes a collaboration to hide those lies. So this, when you really look at it, is par for the course and not really a far deviation from the way they've treated Casey her whole life, which was to always see the best in her, even when there wasn't, in spite of how obvious it was that there was no truth to the narrative they were portraying. So I've seen some comments saying that were specifically me being too hard on being too hard on the parents. Right. And then but a lot of those comments also followed up with their own anecdotal and personal experiences. Like I'm a mother. My son was a drug addict for years. He stole from me. He lied to me. And I always loved him. I'm completely on board. I also want to really state and make it clear that being a drug addict and murdering your child, they're on different planes. They're on different levels. I think one you can come back from and one you can't. And I also want to say that I'm

sure all of you out there saying this truly do love your children, but there is a difference between love and codependency. And I think what the Anthonys have, that's not love. That is codependency. That is a very unhealthy and toxic sort of environment and dynamic because this woman, Cindy, lied under oath, allegedly, she would have done jail time for that. She could have been tried as an accessory if they found out she knew more, if she'd been purposely trying to cover her daughter's tracks. She put herself in jeopardy to get her daughter off the hook. Now, is it because she truly believed that Casey was innocent? I cannot believe that. I'm sorry. And I know you do, Derek. I know you

think that George and Cindy truly believed that Casey was innocent. But these aren't stupid people. They're college educated. They have brains in their heads. They're able to go to work and function every day and make snap decisions and critical thinking. But not when it comes to their daughter. And that's why I say this is not love. This is codependency. Because with love, sometimes you have to have tough love. I love you. I always will. But you've got to pay the price for this, honey. And I'm here for you. I'll do whatever I can.

But you have to face justice. You did something wrong. That's love. I definitely think there's a combination there. I believe that I believe they to this day don't think that Casey killed Kaylee. But I do believe that they think one of Casey's friends or acquaintances were responsible. And Casey knows what happened, which was kind of that jailhouse video where you see Cindy leaning in and you can tell us and all these things.

But it's too late at that point. You've already created an environment for Casey her entire life where she's seen this before and she knows that you're going to ultimately find a way to contort the story to support her too. I wanted to tell you something. That's why it's not too late. It's never too late to pivot. It's too late for Casey because she's expecting you to behave in a certain way like you always have, but it's not too late for you to turn around and do the right thing for once. Yeah, but you're preaching to the choir. I'm saying these are the people we're dealing with, right?

Like they can be innocent in the sense that they weren't directly responsible for anything, but their perception of their daughter is so misguided, is so off that they're just completely blinded by their love for their daughter to an unhealthy manner. And that's why I want to give a little funny story here. And I promise you guys, as I'm telling you this, you know, Stephanie and I are parents. We're normal people just like you. We got normal problems just like you. And I feel like every

week I have a story to tell about my youngest daughter, love her to death, Peyton. Um, here's the last week it was lip gloss, by the way, thank you for the suggestions. None of it has worked perfectly, but one of them actually did help. But here's an email. I'm looking at my phone right now. I'm not going to read it verbatim, but essentially it's from Peyton's teacher. And it's saying, you know, she was found with nine erasers that didn't belong to her, that belonged to other students.

And when the teacher inquired about the erasers, Peyton proceeded to say, they were given to me. And the teacher quickly pointed out that one of the erasers in thereton proceeded to say, oh, they were given to me. And the teacher quickly pointed out that one of the erasers in there belonged to her, the teacher. And Peyton said, well, I don't know how that one got there. You must have gave it to me. So she wanted us to have a conversation. Now tell me. So you're raising a little klepto, man. So wait, wasn't she the one that stole that thing from the store once and you made her bring it back? That was telling. That was telling. Peyton's giving me gray hair, guys. You can't

see it on this camera, thank God, but I'm getting the gray hair from Peyton, but I love her. But she came home and there were a couple options. I asked her what happened and she said, you know, she starts crying. They gave them to me. I know she's not telling the truth. So I didn't let her go. I didn't give her that. I said, no, you took them. And I will not support that. You're going to give them back tomorrow. You're going to apologize. And if you continue, you're not going to be able to go to school anymore. And she was a little hurt by it. But instead of justifying her actions, she realized that there's nowhere to hide. Nobody's going to protect her and get her out of it. And I said, hey, listen, I'm on board with your teacher,

Mrs. So-and-so, I won't say her name. And she realized, oh, I'm in the wrong. They're all coming at me. They're not giving me an out. And again, it's a small thing, but it starts when they're kids and it continues when they're adults. And I think that there is a lot of value in her knowing when she went to school next day, I love her. I'll always protect her. But when she's wrong, I'm going to call her out for it. And I hope that stays with her. So again, the chronicles of Peyton Levasseur, you know, I'm sure there'll be more to come. Hopefully this is the worst it gets, but I highly doubt that. So what did she do? Did she just like go around to all the desks, just like swiping erasers off? I honestly don't know, man.

I don't know. Sticky fingers were in full effect. Tell her to call me. I need to know what her what her whole like game plan situation was. Was was she like wearing a long sleeve shirt so she could like slip them up her sleeve and nobody would notice? Was she just tossing them into a little bag as she went? I the whole way she got caught was the teacher saw her and her friend talking and the friend was like, hey, can I have that back? And Peyton was like, patience, patience.

I'll give you it in a minute. And that's she's like, give her what? And then she. So it's bad. I'm laughing because I'm talking. We're talking as adults here. Yeah. But I can tell you right now there was no smiling.

There was no laughing. There was no condoning the actions that had taken place in that moment because I know it's a traumatic moment for her, but it's going to have a hopefully a lasting impact as far as like you can't do things that you know are wrong. Lie about it and expect me to be happy about have your back. Yeah. Yeah. Be happy about it. And you let you watch TV. She didn't get TV that night. Little things like that.

Nothing that's going to scar her, but enough that she's going to remember it. And I'm talking about a six year old. But I do think some of the things that if we were to apply this situation to Cindy and George, my guess would be they would have went back to the teacher and said, well, she's telling us that the girl, the students gave it to her. Yeah, absolutely. We didn't punish her because we believe her. And Casey would see that and hear that and go, I'm never wrong. So never wrong. That's the thing though. Payton's six, right? Yeah. Six, six year olds are supposed to do that. They're supposed to push their limits. They're supposed to see what they can get away with. And that's how they learn how to stay in their lane. Because somebody says, no, you could get away with that. That's normal at the age of six, but not at the age of 20 something. Right. But it was it was allowed to go on for so long. But it was never too late for Cindy and George to stand up and say, you're on your own, sweetheart. Like, we love you. We always will. You always be our daughter. But we cannot get you out of this one. I agree there. They could have turned it around at any point. They never did. By the way, man, Peyton and Bella are going to be best friends because Bella is exactly like them. And she will lie to you like a psychopath with a straight face. And I will believe her and I'll be

like, oh yeah, I mean, who could lie that easily? And then I find out she's lying and I'm like, damn, I can't even believe this. Peyton, did you draw the lipstick on that chair right there? No. Peyton, do you still have the lipstick in your hand right now? Yeah, but that's not the same lipstick. It's the same color. It's missing half the stem of the lipstick. Is it possible it's the same one? Somebody put this in my hand.

She looks down out of the side of her eye like, damn it, I still have it. She looks down and she's like. Where did this come from? Man, I'll tell you. I read the email and I'm laughing inside, but I'm mortified reading. I'm like, am I really going to have this conversation? But you know it's normal. It's not like, oh no, this is terrible. She's ruined. You know it's normal. And as long as you handle it properly, she's back on track. But that's exactly how your daughter acted when she got caught in a lie is exactly how Casey acted in her 20s when she got caught in a lie. She denied, she made up random stupid excuses like colorful balls in a laundry bag. And now I don't know where it is. Like just random stupid excuses walking around Universal Studio like an actual child.

So there's definitely delayed mental and emotional development there, but that doesn't mean she's not culpable. Absolutely. So a little side story there. You know, I promise I won't let Peyton turn out to be like Casey. We're going to start doing a GoFundMe to raise money for Peyton's bail one day. Yep. Yep.

So before Kaylee's remains had been found, the prosecution had made the decision to not seek the death penalty because they didn't have a body. But now the situation was obviously different. I'm going to try and explain in the best way I can why Lawson Lamar, the state's attorney, decided to ultimately seek the death penalty. And maybe you can help me along the way because you probably know more about this than I do. But in Florida, the death penalty is a possible sentence for any first degree murder conviction, but aggravating circumstances must also be present. So they felt that Kaylee's young age was an aggravating circumstance all in its own. But the prosecution genuinely believed that Casey had killed her daughter by placing duct tape over her mouth,

which suffocated her. Suffocation, while conscious, is considered by the court to be a torturous way to die, which would be another aggravating circumstance. Jeff Ashton explains that if the jury were to determine that Kaylee had been unconscious when the tape was applied, the aggravator would not apply, but there was no evidence that Kaylee had been unconscious. She hadn't been hit over the head, and if Casey had given her chloroform to knock her out before putting the tape over her mouth, that would suggest premeditation, which is also an aggravating circumstance. So the state felt that they had sufficient evidence to now justify the death penalty, but it would only be an option for the jury. They did not have to sentence her to death, even though it was on the table. Jeff Ashton also talks about

mitigation, which is the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something. So for instance, if Casey had a diagnosable mental health disorder that would have impaired her ability to think clearly and logically, that would be taken into account as a mitigating circumstance. But as we know, Casey's interviews with mental health professionals and results from her psychological tests showed that this was not the case. When Casey's defense team heard about the decision to reintroduce the death penalty, they challenged the prosecution's legal basis for seeking it. Jeff Ashton gave a statement in open court, in front of the defense, the judge, Casey Anthony, and the media. And he said, quote, Kaylee was almost three when she died with duct tape over her nose and mouth. Any child of

that age should have had the physical ability to remove the duct tape covering her airway and preventing her from breathing. And the evidence in this case would show that Kaylee was, if not average, above average in that regard. A juror might conclude then that she must have been restrained, either chemically or physically. If chemically restrained, her killer prepared some substance that would render her physically unable to resist, administered the substance, and awaited its effect, and then methodically applied three pieces of duct tape to completely cut off the flow of air through her mouth or her nose and let nature take its course. At least Kaylee wouldn't have had fear. How would the jurors apply those facts to the law that the court would give them? If she was physically restrained, her killer would

have had to restrain her arms by some means, applying tape while she was conscious as her killer looked into her face. Maybe her killer even saw her eyes as the tape was applied. First one piece, then two, then three, so that no breath was possible. Could Kaylee have understood what was happening to her? Did she try to resist? Could her killer see the fear in her eyes as the tape was applied? These are questions only the jurors will be able to answer in this case. One thing we do know is this.

If we have gotten to this stage, those same jurors have already decided that the face that Kaylee Anthony saw in those final moments of her life was her mother's face. Anyone who contends that no juror could find that these conclusions call for a sentence of death is only fooling himself. And on that note, that very sombering note, I think Jeff Ashton very clearly described the situation as it happened, how terrifying it would have been for Kaylee, how evil you have to be to do that to a child, much less your own child. And yeah, we will pick up with the next part, the final part. We're going to talk about the trial. So we're going to reintroduce some of this evidence that

we discussed in this part. We're going to reintroduce it and we're going to see what Casey Anthony and Jose Baez's responses to it, how they try to explain this evidence away, how can't talk about that anymore. But some scenarios that are really a hard pill to swallow, but they are reality. And when you're talking to a jury, you're talking about this case, you want to paint those pictures because you want to put it in perspective for the jury members. So it's a really fascinating case. And that's why it's going to be our longest series to date. When we get done with this, it'll be eight parts. And I think it's a really fascinating case and that's why it's going to be our longest series to date. When we get done with this, it'll be eight parts. And I think it's warranted. The case is polarizing. We've been getting a lot of positive feedback as far as what we're contributing to our

research and investigation as far as our perspective on the case. So I think it was worth doing it this way and we'll finalize it next week with what's the kind of the wrap up here. We'll talk about the trial, obviously the acquittal, things like that, what the jury may have thought and why they had came to the conclusion they came to. Does that sound about right? Yeah. And I mean, spoiler alert, a lot of those jury members have now come forward and said, we think we made the wrong decision. Now that could be because of all the stuff that's come out after, all the content that's come out, pretty much highlighting just where Casey was wrong. But I think that it also has a lot to do with the fact that when you're in that situation

as a jury, there's a lot of pressure to come to a verdict, right? There's other people, they don't want to be there for five months. They want you to make a decision and they want you all to get on the same page and make a decision. And I think that there's a lot of pressure in those scenarios where some people who might be holdouts and might be like, I think she's guilty, get kind of moved to the other side because there's a mob mentality in the jury room. And I've heard this said on multiple occasions where many jurors in many different cases have been like, I never wanted to vote not guilty.

But at some point I was the only holdout and I didn't feel like I had any other choice. Yeah, I think you're right. And I'm really looking forward to hearing those conversations because I would definitely like to know how they came to it. I can see already from what I know about the case, the reasonable doubt that would be brought in where a jury member may go the other way. Personally, I don't think I would have gotten there, but that's why they would never pick someone like you or myself to be on a jury. For those reasons, if we speak honestly in the jury questions, they're going to throw us right out of the room. So looking forward to that. A couple house cleaning things. Can we do that real quick and then we'll wrap it up? So without, we can't say it and I hate when people do this,

but I'm going to do it anyways. Stephanie and I are taking on a huge new project that we're both super excited about. We can't say anything yet, but it's going to take up a lot of our time. So the reason I bring that up- Yo, I hate when people do that. Hate it. Absolutely hate it. I was like, what are you doing? I absolutely hate it. Sorry, not sorry. Don't come for me. Yo, he did not tell me he was going to drop this.

He said, we can't tell anyone. We can't. But now you're hinting. This isn't right for these. The reason I'm bringing it up is because some of you already know I had it on the YouTube page, the Keep You Safe kits. It was something we did as a niche thing. I have one more pre-order going.

It's till January 31st. So what day would this come out? I think it's going to be the Wednesday. So I just looked it up. It's going to actually be February 2nd that this video comes out. So I will wait for the YouTube people as well. I'll close it February 2nd, but I don't have any here now. I'm going to order as many as people request so that everyone gets it. They've been selling out. And then after that, I'm probably not going to do it for a while, if ever again, because of this project. That's why I brought it I'm probably not going to do it for a while, if ever again, because of this project. That's why I brought it up because this is going to be something that's going to

shake up the game and it's going to take us a lot of our time. We're still going to do our show. Everything's staying the same there, but instead of focusing on other things, we're going to really both collectively be focusing on this. It's for you guys. So just know that it's for you guys. You guys are going to love it. You guys are going to absolutely love it. We're super pumped about it, but that's why I'm saying the keep you safe kit. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you don't need to. But if you want to check it out, go over to my website, official Derek.com slash shop, pre-order it. If you want it, you will get it. If you pre-order it, they're going to have them handmade there. And then that'll probably be the end of it. So don't say I didn't give enough time for everybody to get them.

That's all I wanted to put out there. But yeah, I'm sorry for pissing everyone off by teasing you guys for something we probably won't be able to announce for a little bit. If you don't know about it, you don't need to. Yeah, at this point, if you don't know what it is, but if you want it, and if you don't know about it and you want to check it out, go over to the website. And there's a description for each item. It's basically a personal defense kit that had became a thing on our live, you know, alive a long time ago.

And we've put it, I put it up a couple of times. It's sold out every time the pre-order has been out for a while and there's already been a bunch that are pre-ordered, but I'm just going to keep it open so that everybody who's DMing me saying, I didn't get it. I didn't get in time. You can get it. And for our international listeners and viewers, unfortunately, we can't ship it to you guys because there are items in there that would be considered illegal weapons, essentially. So can't do that. And I apologize. Don't blame me. Blame your country. I don't know what else to tell you, man. The UK, we get a lot of UK people who are like, can you send it to me? I'll pay extra. And I'm like, no, I don't want to get arrested. So when we go to CrimeCon in, no, I don't want to get arrested.

So when we go to CrimeCon in London, will I not be able to bring my little thing? No, no, I will not let you on the plane with that. I'm going to have you keep. I do. I do not need you being arrested at the customs. No, no, no, no. Can't do that. I'm going to be in the Tower of London.

The bracelet you can wear. You can wear your bracelet over there. That's about it. You know, that's about it. Um, and you kind of just mentioned it. I guess we could say that too. We're going to be, we haven't even promoted it yet,

but we are going to crime con Las Vegas. I don't think we've said that on this cause we agreed to do it after our last episode. So if you don't follow us on social, Stephanie and I will be in Las Vegas for crime con 2022. It's the weekend of April 29th to May 1st. If you haven't bought tickets yet and you want to go and you want 10% off, and I guess there's not many tickets left, but use our code CRIMEWEEKLY, all one word, and you'll save 10% on your pass. CrimeCon's a great

time. It's going to have podcast row. There's speakers, there's exhibits, there's merch. There's so much to do there. It's over 3000 people. And if you buy a ticket to CrimeCon using our code and you send it to us to show us that you did, we will do a meet and greet with you guys. Yeah, we're going to meet up with everyone. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to be there. And so that's Vegas. And then as you just alluded to, we're also planning on going to CrimeCon UK, which is in London this year. It's in June. We'll give you the dates. It'll be on our social, but also you can use the same code when it's set up. Wait for us to announce it on social, but you'll be able to use the Crime Weekly code and you'll get a discount there as well. So it's a smaller event in the UK, but we know we have a lot of people over in the UK

that watch us and support us and listen to us. So we want to come over and meet you guys. And listen, same goes. If you're in the UK and you use our code to go to CrimeCon in the UK, we're going to do a meet and greet with you guys there. 100%. But you guys are buying the beer because that shit's expensive in London, okay? I'm kidding.

We'll buy the beer, but still, it's expensive in London. Okay. I'm kidding. We'll buy the beer. But still, it's expensive in London. It'll be fun. So a little bit of like a house cleaning thing because we've been off for two weeks. And I think that's a nice segue to say, if you want to keep up on some of the things we're doing and you want to hear about it, make sure you follow us on social media. It's at Crime Weekly Pod. You can go on Instagram and on Twitter.

And if you want to check out our website, it's CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com. If you want merch, it's CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com slash shop. He's so good. He's so good. That was perfect. I don't need to take us out. We'll see you guys next week. Goodbye.

Bye.