Crime Weekly - S2 Ep62: Caylee Anthony: The State v. Casey Marie Anthony (Part 8)

Episode Date: February 4, 2022

Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Agatha Christie once said that a mothers love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity, it dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path. Most parents feel that their main job is to protect their children from the terrors of the world, and they take this job very seriously, so when we hear of a child that seemingly was tossed to the side and forgotten, we have a very negative and visceral reaction. After all, children are the future, and they deserve a fighting chance. Two year old Caylee Marie Anthony had this chance stolen from her, she had her life stolen from her, and to this day we still don’t understand why. Caylee disappeared on June 16th, 2008, and it would take six months for the world to find out what had happened to her. Her skeletal remains were found inside a laundry bag, discarded in a wooded area. There was evidence that little Caylee’s mouth had been duct taped at the time of her death, and all eyes were on her young mother, Casey Anthony, who had failed to report the toddler missing for over a month, and during this time, Casey was seen at nightclubs and bars, having the time of her life.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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apply. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today is the eighth and final part of the Kaylee Anthony series, and it's going to be a longer episode. So without further ado, let's just dive in. Do you agree? 100%. All right. So we've finally reached the end. Casey was charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter of a child, and four counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer. She would be facing these charges with her lawyer, Jose Baez, by her side day after day. And Jose was ready to drop a bombshell on the court. When talking about Baez in his book, lead prosecutor Jeff Ashton referred to him as smarmy, someone who's slick, underhanded, and doesn't shoot straight. And Jeff Ashton often talks in this book about how in the beginning,

he really wanted to give Jose Baez a chance, and he was like, this guy can't be that bad. And then every time Jose Baez did something or opened his mouth, Ashton was like, he sucks. So he eventually just gave up trying to give Jose Baez the benefit of the doubt. And they sort of didn't get along. In the months leading up to the trial, Ashton found Baez to be unethical and unprofessional, especially in his dealings with the media. and the prosecution had attempted to get a gag order so that Jose would not be able to make sensationalized statements to reporters, but it had been denied. After rumors that Jose had helped Casey arrange a deal with ABC to sell photographs of Casey for $200,000, the prosecution was able to get a motion approved. This would prevent either Casey or her legal team from doing the same thing with the photos of Kaylee's remains.

And these pictures would not be seen until the trial. Now, I said that they were rumors, right? Rumors that she had sold them to ABC. But shortly before the trial, the prosecution and the defense met with Judge Stan Strickland in his chambers. And these rumors were confirmed by Casey herself. She had sold pictures of her daughter. And Jeff Ashton said, quote, I was so

disgusted by her at that moment. At the time when the sale had taken place, I was confident that Kaylee was already dead and that Casey knew it. What kind of mother would sell pictures of her dead child for a profit? End quote. This is, I mean, Jeff Ashton says it best.

You know, it's something where allegedly Casey's still looking for her daughter, right? If she's alive and she's selling photos of her daughter to these outlets, someone might say, oh, well, she needed to do that in order to make money for her defense. I think she would be the one to say that. Yeah, that's that's the easy answer. Right. But not buying it. Completely agree with Jeff. This tasteful, you know, and if we are to believe what we think, you know, that Casey knew Kaylee was dead, it makes it even that. It's not just Jose. It's not just Jose. It's not just ABC. All of them had to agree to be a part of this deal in order to get it done, and they didn't seem to have any problem doing that. They want the headlines. They want the clickbait. They want the exclusive. Yeah. No, not surprised. So Casey's trial was set to begin in May of 2011,

but in April of 2010, despite Judge Stan Strickland's reputation for being fair and even friendly to the defense, Jose Baez filed a motion to have Judge Strickland removed, stating that the judge had a clear prejudice against Casey. So during a previous hearing, Judge Strickland had made a comment saying, quote, it appears the truth and Miss Anthony are strangers, end quote. And Jose Baez had a real problem with this. You know, I guess I could understand how it seems to be biased, I guess. But at the same time, this is a judge. And what he's seeing is somebody who's lying blatantly. And these lies are proved. You know, it's like the Universal Studios thing, the Zanny the Nanny thing. These are all lies that are proved. Objectively, Casey think they should be allowed to do so. But I can see again how Baez would try to make that move, because if he feels like this

judge is not going to be favorable to his client, yeah, he clearly doesn't want that person there. I don't know what judge he would think would be favorable, you know, to his client. But Baez claimed that he wanted to get Strickland removed and he'd wanted to do that for quite a while. But he said that he knew that if he wanted to, quote, shoot the, and he'd wanted to do that for quite a while. But he said that he knew that if he wanted to, quote, shoot the king, he would have to shoot to kill. So he waited for what he believed was a situation where he could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Strickland was not unbiased and he would not be able to be fair to Casey during her trial. This situation happened on October 19th after a hearing where Judge Strickland

brought a member of the audience up to see him. So everybody else had kind of left, like Jose had gone out, all the lawyers had gone out, most of the audience had gone out, and Judge Strickland brought one of the guys who was in the audience up to his bench. And this person was Dave Netschel. Dave Netschel ran a blog under the name Marinate Dave, and in his blog, he had been covering the Kaylee Anthony case, where Jose Baez did not feel that he was being fair to Casey. Apparently, the judge told Dave that he had read his blog and he thought that Dave was being very fair in it. And Jose Baez took this to mean that Judge Strickland was endorsing the things that Dave wrote in his blog, such as an article titled, Premeditated and Pretty Stupid.

Therefore, this proved that Judge Strickland had not only made his mind up about Casey's from the trial anyways, saying, quote, at its core, defense counsel's motion accuses the undersigned of being a self-aggrandizing media hound. Indeed, the irony is rich, end quote. Zing. Yeah. Judge Strickland saying like, Jose Baez is calling me like a self-aggrandizing media hound, like, you know, pot calling the kettle black. Yeah. Yeah. That's rich. I mean, it was a good move by Baez. I do have to say too, Strickland, if that is true, everything, and I guess, you know, with him removing himself, I'm going to go on the premise that it probably, there is some truth to it. And if he's saying that to an audience member who's writing a podcast or blog or whatever, that's, you shouldn't do that. You should not do that, especially if that blog

is favorable to one side or the other. That's not professional. Although you might be slightly unbiased based on, again, common sense, you should not be voicing your endorsement of a blog that's clearly one-sided, on one side or the other. And so, yeah, I mean, that's a mistake by Strickland. He screwed up there. He clearly knew he did. And that's why he removed... I don't think he would have removed himself if there was no validity to what Baez was accusing him of doing with that conversation. But yeah, out the door, Strickland throws one last jab at Baez saying, listen, guy, we know the only reason you're here is because you see the notoriety surrounding this case. So it's funny for you to say that's what I'm doing when clearly that's what you're doing.

I do want to say for Judge Strickland on his behalf, he had been ruling on motions and things for quite a while. And he was very fair to Jose Baez. And he did, you know, deny a lot of the motions that the prosecution had filed. So it seemed like he was fair. And I do want to say that I do think some professional people can say, like, I have an opinion on this because I'm a human, but I'm still going to do my job because I know how to do my job and I know the law. And I think that's probably the direction that he would have gone in.

One hundred percent. One hundred percent. You can have common sense. And like you said, still separate that from the law, right? You're going to apply the standard, the way the law is written to whatever facts and circumstances are presented and decide whether or not it meets the threshold for whatever ruling that they're looking for. And yeah, I think you would have as well. But to bring someone up out of the audience and say anything in the middle of a trial, I think even

when you were saying it, I'm like, that has to either be a lie or a strong misjudgment on his part. He should not have done that. And for him to remove himself, I do think there's probably some truth to it. And yeah, he made a mistake. He made a mistake and he came back to bite him in the ass and Baez was waiting for it. And he got what he wanted. Well, Judge Strickland was replaced with Judge Belvin Perry Jr., who was also known to be a good and fair judge. And the prosecution was actually really happy about the change because they had gone toe to toe with Strickland many times before and they hadn't gotten their way. And the prosecution also felt that Strickland wasn't doing enough to keep Baez and his antics under control. Like Baez would get these deadlines when he would have to file things

and he would miss them and then be like, oh, what am I supposed to do that day? And Judge Strickland was like, all right, guy, just, you know, get him in when you can. It was kind of easy with him. So the prosecution was actually happy that there was a switch. And in fact, Jeff Ashton had often wished that they'd gotten Judge Perry instead of Strickland because Strickland was super laid back, whereas Perry was much more strict and he very much followed the letter of the law and he had no patience for courtroom soap opera drama. So I could spend an hour telling you the ways that Jose Baez made the pretrial phase far more difficult and time consuming that it had to be. Maybe it was because he was still pretty wet behind the ears when it

came to these big time capital murder cases, or maybe it was because he was just trying to be a pain in the ass. But Baez had developed a reputation, not just with this case, but in others as being an ambusher when it came to last minute evidence. So, for example, he would withhold things that he would have and not give them until like the very last moment. And this poses a problem for the prosecution because if he's got new witnesses or he's got new evidence, they want to vet that evidence or they want to talk to these witnesses. And when he's doing it last minute, it doesn't give them the chance to do that. Baez gave the defense a list of experts that were going to testify, but he didn't tell them what the experts were planning to testify about. Even if Judge Perry ordered Baez to deliver something to

the prosecution, he would be late in doing so, and he would have claimed that he'd forgotten in order to buy time. So several motions were flying back and forth between the two sides, adding to the mountain of paperwork that they all had to deal with. And it was making them all very grumpy and sort of hate each other. The defense and prosecution found themselves in Judge Perry's chambers far more often than any of them would have liked, with the judge acting almost like a frustrated parent, asking his children why they couldn't just get along and stop fighting. This is one thing that as a police officer, I hate because I've experienced this so many times firsthand. And it's like this chess match going on between the prosecution and the defense.

And it's not necessarily about getting justice. It's about who's going to pull the best chess move. And they use the case as their chess board, which is unfortunate. And I hope I'm explaining that right, but they desensitize themselves in a lot of, in a lot of cases to the case itself. And it's more of a, it's their business. That's their job. So their job is regardless of the case to out strategize the other side. And in some cases, the victims are the ones who suffer the most. And so I've always been super frustrated by this because you do see examples where if the defense

is way more experienced and has more training in it or whatever the case might be, they'll beat the prosecution purely because they're better, not because the case warranted their defendant getting off. And it's extremely frustrating. So you can do all your investigation, you can present the facts, you think you got a good case, and because you get a public defender who's really confident in what they're doing, smart, young, hungry, and wants to make a name for themselves, and then you get a prosecutor who is kind of phoning it in because they've been doing it forever and they're looking for the easiest way out. You can end up losing the case by nothing you did as an investigator, but just by the prosecution not putting on a better case in the defense. And that's really unfortunate because yeah,

it sucks for me as the detective, but it sucks even more for the person I'm trying to get justice for. Well, they're at war. They are. They're at war. And it's kind of like a divorce where it becomes more about winning than about- 100%. What the core matter is, like about making sure that everybody gets out alive, right? That's usually what you'd want to do, like make sure everyone gets out alive, but then it becomes more about winning and I think it becomes personal.

And between Jeff Ashton and Jose Baez, it was definitely personal. They did not like each other and it showed in every way, shape and form. And so that's affecting their ability to perform, right? Sometimes it might be better. If they're really passionate about it, maybe they perform better. Some people get too emotional and they misjudge things because they're not thinking clearly. I'll even say one more thing. And this isn't necessarily a terrible thing, but it is a real fact. I've seen it with my own eyes. Sometimes you'll have a case where the prosecutor and the defense attorney will go at each other for a week or two, right? Not these big trials that we're talking about on Crime Weekly, but just

cases that matter, people that were victimized or whatever. And these two will go at it. And sometimes the prosecutor wins, sometimes the defense attorney wins. And yet they're all at the bar, the same restaurant or hotel bar that night, kind of going over, hey, you got me there. You got me on this one. They're going to go on to the next case the following day. That really sucks. And I'm not condemning lawyers or anything like that, but I know we're going to have some attorneys in the comments. And I hope they're transparent about it because this isn't me speculating. I've literally been at those dinners and at those occasions where we all get together. So it's not always personal. Sometimes it's just, who's going to bring more ammo that day? Who's going to have the better strategy?

And sometimes it's at the expense of the victims. And conversely, just to be fair, sometimes it's at the expense of the person who's on trial because maybe they are innocent, but the prosecutor's just hammering away on the defense attorney and they're not ready for it. You could have someone end up getting charged with a crime or found guilty of a crime they didn't commit. So it does work both ways, but it's unfortunate that that's such a strong element in these cases. And you saw it here with Casey Anthony. Well, it's kind of like politicians, you know, like they're fighting on TV and they're like, we hate you. Republicans suck. Democrats suck. And then behind the scenes, they're all smoking cigar and drinking like 50 year scotch and being like these stupid idiots

think that we don't like each other. You know, it's absolutely like that. It's a game that they play and we're not part of the game. We're just a collateral damage. It's a different club. But yeah, it's definitely a real, it's a, I'm so glad you brought it up because it's a reality. There's other things at play here. These lawyers are not robots who are just going to state the facts and put on the best case possible and let justice take the wheel. There's an element of who's better, just like a sporting event. Of course. You know? Yeah. And that's why I like when these lawyers and these attorneys write books about the cases, especially with this, you've got Jose Baez wrote a book and he's like, Jeff Ashton's a loser. And then Jeff Ashton wrote a book and he's like,

Jose Baez sucks. And you're like, oh, I can really see that this must have led to a lot of tense moments. Of course. But why do you think you see. Garagos get hired by all these, you know, these big celebrities. It's his name, but it's also because he's really good at what he does. And so, you know, and again, subjective. But there's a reason that these millionaires who get into trouble usually go. You usually see the same lawyers names thrown around.

What do they all share, though, in common? These these big lawyers that everybody wants to hire. I'll keep my opinion to myself, what they all share. Well, besides that, they all share this sort of like circus act. They're big and they're flashy in court and they're like- Oh, yeah. These antics that almost keep the jury interested because a court case can be, a trial can be incredibly boring. You're going over every minuscule piece of evidence. So the jury, these are just regular people. A guy who is an investment banker and a lady who sells Avon or something, they don't really care about all these little details and it can get boring to them. So to have somebody like Jose Baez or Mark Garagos come in or Johnny Cochran, for example, they spice it up. They turn it into

a show and then the jury starts paying attention. So oftentimes it's the loudest, flashiest lawyer who gets the most attention and ends up winning because the jury paid the most attention when they were talking. Fair. Very fair. In March of 2011, Casey returned to court for three days of what is known as Fry hearings. So Orlando criminal defense attorney Richard Hornsby, he's not affiliated with the case, he just gave his opinion. He explained that the Fry hearings are a chance for the judge to make sure that the evidence in the trial is accepted by the scientific community. And if it's not, the evidence could be excluded from the trial. So Casey's defense team requested that several pieces of evidence be looked at during these

hearings. One of these pieces of evidence was the report from Dr. Arpad Voss from the Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Now, if you remember, Voss had concluded that there had been a dead body in the trunk of Casey's car after he'd taken several air samples from that trunk, and he had also identified several compounds that indicated human decomposition, as well as copious amounts of chloroform. Now, this was the first time, like in the history of law, where the smell of a human body would be presented as evidence in a court of law. So it was imperative that Arpad Vassa's findings pass the Frye standard. Judge Perry denied the defense's motion to exclude any mention of chloroform during the trial. So Jose Baez really tried that. He was like,

we shouldn't talk about chloroform at all during the trial. And I mean, he tried. What else could he do? He tried, but the judge found that there was circumstantial evidence that Casey had access to the computer that had made searches for chloroform prior to little Kaylee's death. And the judge also determined that the method which had been used to analyze carpet samples from Casey's car that had been used for over 40 years, and it was generally accepted by the scientific community. As far as the decompositional odor, Judge Perry also allowed this evidence into trial, even though the defense had brought in two scientists who testified that Dr. Voss's methods were not generally accepted by members of his field. Now, this was a huge win for the prosecution, but obviously, Jose Baez was not happy about it. He would have preferred that nobody said the word chloroform during trial. He would have preferred that nobody mentioned how much Casey's trunk smelled like a dead body. And so the wheels began to turn in his head. He wanted to come up with a

new plan that would convince the jury that his client was innocent. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. So it wouldn't take long for the rest of us to find out what that new plan was. Jose Baez would drop it on the first day of trial. But while he was working on her case, Casey was behind bars making friends to fill the lonely hours of her day. And one of them was fellow inmate Robin Adams. During the 10 months that Adams was in the Orange County Jail with Casey, they wrote letters back and forth to do that, kind of like sit outside of the other cell and talk through the little food slot. And it actually turned out that this guard, her name was Sylvia Hernandez, she was making it very easy for the two women to support their growing friendship. And she even allowed the two to be alone together in the same cell, which is obviously against policy.

Like everything that Sylvia Hernandez did was against policy. And when this other inmate was asked, she was like, I think she was just trying to be nice. She felt bad. She knew Casey was lonely, but this woman was dismissed. I would hope so. I mean, you don't know what they're passing along to each other. It could be about the case. Casey could be sending her like details to tell someone on the outside to go and like destroy evidence and stuff. Like, absolutely. It's against protocol for her reason. Right.

And when you say dismissed, this person was fired. Sylvia was fired. So it doesn't really specifically say it just says she was put on like a probationary leave while they investigated and then there's nothing else after. But well, if it was her first offense. Yeah. OK, fine. She wasn't like smuggling things in. So I get that.

She was more facilitating the relationship as opposed to like bringing in outside information for her. So, yeah, probationary maybe. But if this was if she's a habitual offender where she's doing stuff like this all the time, I hope they got rid of her. Yeah, probably not, though. You're not there to be their friends, you know? Yeah, I agree. And leave them alone in their cell. You don't know what they're saying to each other. You're not there to be their friends, you know? Yeah, I agree. And leave them alone in their cell. You don't know what they're saying to each other. You don't know

what's happening. And yeah, obviously, this other inmate, like her calls and her letters were going to be monitored, but she was in there for, you know, something small. So they're not looking as closely at her stuff. So if Casey was like, listen, they're recording everything, they're listening to everything I say. Can you just give like so and so a call? Can you give my boyfriend a call and tell him to like, you know, throw my laptop in the lake? You can't do that. Nope. So through hours and hours of talking, this other inmate, Adams, she discovered some information about Casey. She would later tell investigators that very shortly after Kaylee's remains were discovered, Casey was distraught. And she told Adams that

her daughter's body had been found wrapped in a baby blanket and placed in a garbage bag. Only problem was this information had not been made public yet. In one letter to Robin Adams, Casey wrote, quote, I look at my pictures of Kaylee so many times throughout the day and I can't help but smile at my little rock star. I miss her more than I can ever express in words. Some days the tears just won't end. I just sneezed my confirmation from God, smiley face. I've been doing that a lot lately. Very rarely do I just sneeze anymore. One of the few things I actually like the cold weather for, it stifles my allergy attacks. I do like wearing cute boots and a leather jacket and hats, mittens. I want a leather bomber jacket, that and an awesome pair of biker boots. Of course, the quote that comes to mind is from Dumb and Dumber, killer boots man, end quote.

It seems almost too perfect that in this letter, Casey said her sadness went on and on. It just wouldn't end, at least until she got to the topic of fashion, right? And don't get it twisted. Like when Robin Adams is telling people these things, she's not doing it to say like Casey's bad. She actually defended Casey. She's like she's a great person. So she wasn't, you know, going to the prosecution to get a deal for like a move to a different prison or to get, you know, a shortened sentence. She actually liked Casey and was rooting for her. And I guess nobody saw the issue with this very weird transition. So you think she was rather was trying to, like, how much do you love your daughter when you talk about her for one sentence and then you start talking about all the boots and bomber jackets you're going to buy? You know, it's it's very it's show. She's trying to pass the time in there by not, you know, thinking about it all, you know, all day long. But, yeah, it's an odd conversation to be had when you're currently on trial for the murder of your daughter. Yeah. Well, Casey even talked to Robin about, you know, trying to see if her legal team would provide her with some hair removal products that she'd seen on an infomercial in jail. She said she wanted to de-hair her bikini area before her release. I guess she had a hot

date waiting for her on the outside. And she also told Robin that she was thinking about how to change her appearance so that when she did eventually get released, because the way Casey talks, her release is like a foregone conclusion. There's no doubt in her mind she's getting out. So she said when she got released, she wanted to change her appearance so that people wouldn't recognize her. So she was like, should I go blonde? Should I dye my hair red? What colored contacts should I get? What name should I pick to start my new life? Which I think is ironic, considering we already know, you know, she did get released and she didn't change her name or her appearance at all. She didn't even leave Florida. And to this day,

she's constantly still recognized. She just had a drink thrown in her face at some bar, like I think a couple months ago. Among the many other questions I've had about the reason Casey does the things she does, this has been a big one. Like why stay in Florida? Why not leave Florida? Why not actually change your name and appearance and get that fresh start that you claimed you wanted so badly? Now, in my opinion, I think she likes the notoriety. I think she likes being recognized. You know, an anonymous blonde woman living in New Jersey going by the name Sarah Baker, she's a nobody. But Casey Anthony living in Florida, she's infamous. And I think, honestly, Casey was afraid of becoming irrelevant, of people like forgetting her name and who she was.

I agree with you. I mean, we've kind of established that Casey's a narcissist. And although this isn't the thing that 99.9% of the population would want to be known for, we're not talking about 99.9% of the population. We're talking about Casey Anthony. And, you know, regardless of, you know, she's one of those people that believes all publicity is good publicity. You know, like even when it's bad, like she's under that front. And yeah, I can see her being like, regardless of what the why, I like that people see me and talk about me and recognize me. And maybe and I'm sure there are people out there who go up to her and take photos

with her as sick as that sounds. I guarantee it. I'll guarantee it. There are people out there. Yes. Yes. Not the same vein, but you see it all the time with OJ now. People are still asking for photos with OJ all the time. It's a little different, though, because he was like somebody, you know, he was like this famous football player before. And like, I'm not saying that. Oh, yeah, I would take a picture with OJ, but not Casey. I wouldn't take a picture with neither of them. But I can see people being fans before him. And I feel like there's a lot more people out there who think he's innocent, especially his fans from before, whereas really nobody thinks Casey is innocent. Yeah. I mean, either way, it's for me, you know, if I believe even if you're the, you know, famous football player, if I believe that you killed your girlfriend or your former ex, you know, your ex wife and her boyfriend, probably going to steer clear of you.

Just my opinion. But I do think that I agree with everything you said. Casey definitely likes the attention and she doesn't want to become irrelevant. She doesn't want to become just, you become just a regular person like everybody else. And that's probably a contributing factor to why she stayed in Florida. Because what other reason would there be? Why else would you stay there? Everyone knows you there. Why else would you stay there? I have to look through Instagram now and see if people be tagging Casey Anthony in their posts.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know if they're tagging. That'd be pretty stupid because they'd get hammered if people found it. But I have a feeling there are definitely people approaching her wherever she is. And, you know, some are mostly are negative, I'm sure. But some are like, hey, can I get a photo? You know, I know people take like pictures of her from afar, you know, like they'll be at a bar and they'll be like, Casey, that is here. Right.

And she like and don't think she doesn't know. She loves it. She's got that main character energy for days. So when the defense filed a motion for a change of venue, believing Casey would not get a fair trial in Orlando, Judge Perry compromised. He said he wasn't going to move the trial, but they could pick the jury from a different jurisdiction. In his book, Jose Baez claimed that no one cared about Casey in South Florida. No one was talking about her in Miami or West Palm Beach, which is actual bullshit. Like, no one cared about Casey in any area of Florida.

But what everyone in Florida did care about was Kaylee. So it's not like, you know, there's people in Miami, which isn't far from Orlando. I mean, it's not like right next door, but still, it's the same state. It's not like people in Miami were like, who's Casey Anthony? You know, everyone knew her. They might not have cared what happened to her, but they knew her. So they ended up picking the jury from the Clearwater and St. Petersburg areas of Florida, to be quite liberal because apparently that's what Jose Baez wanted. He didn't want any conservative traditional values of like, don't kill your kids. He was looking for liberals who were going to be okay with that, I guess. I don't know what his whole motive was. Yeah. I'm not saying liberals are out there condoning murder, but it's one of those things where they'd be more understanding of the situation and be more cognizant of, oh my God, we could possibly convict an innocent girl

of murdering her child. So it's, I guess more open would be the word. Yeah, because he just said they're more liberal and then he left it that he didn't explain what that meant for the case. Right. What do you mean by that? I don't think we're talking about their political affiliations, just more willing to be open to the idea that maybe this was a kidnapping or a tragic accident or something along those lines. No, he meant their political affiliations. Really? He just didn't elaborate on why that would be better for Casey. That's interesting. I don't see, you know, yeah, that's interesting.

I guess only he knows the answer to that one. Yeah. During the three weeks of jury selection, Jose Baez was intent on finding jurors who were not young mothers. And in fact, he wanted to avoid seating women on the jury at all because he felt they would be more critical of Casey. Jose wanted males over the age of 45 who he claimed would look at Casey as a young girl who they could have sympathy for. I think Jose Baez wanted men over the age of 45, not because they would look at Casey with sympathy, but because they would look at her with lust, probably like Jose did, allegedly. Yikes. Allegedly. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I guess. I mean, maybe.

Because it's like messed up. Like men don't care about killing children, but women do. Like, come on. Yeah. That's why like I'm not over 45. I'm 38. But I mean, well, I'll be 38 in a few days. But it's one of those things where I think by the time I'm 45, I'll still be in a position where regardless of how beautiful the woman is who's on trial, if I think based on the facts that she's guilty of murder, I'm going to find her guilty. Now you could say, oh, well, Derek, you're a former cop. Of course you're going to say that. But I'd like to think that most of the male population would be able to think with their

brain and not their penis in this case, especially when the life of a little girl is in question here. So that's my opinion. But maybe he figured, hey, you know what? That may be true, but I got a better shot at the guy that I do with a woman. So I'd rather roll with that. You're probably right. So they ended up with 12 jurors and five alternates. Now, the jury ranged from a white woman in her late 60s, a black father in his 30s, a single white woman in her 30s who had no children and who claimed she'd never heard about the case, an unemployed man in his 50s who supported the

death penalty but also believed that you were innocent until proven guilty. And really, a lot of people on this jury, they did support the death penalty. And it's Florida after all. So that's I think it's pretty typical to see to see more pro-death penalty stances in Florida than you would in, you know, say, New York or Boston or something or Massachusetts. She was wearing a tight blue dress. She wasn't hanging over a toilet puking. She was dressed very conservatively. Her long dark hair was pulled back in a ponytail. She had zero makeup on. She looked like telling the jury that this was the case of the state of Florida versus Casey Marie Anthony. But it was time to tell the story of a little girl named Kaylee. And later, George Anthony would say how he really appreciated that the prosecution had spent much of their opening statement talking about Kaylee, who she was, who she was to the people around her, because Kaylee got lost in this as so often happens. Yeah. And from a tactical perspective, it's smart. You want to create that connection, especially for anyone on the jury who might have children or might be an aunt or an uncle. You want them to see their own loved ones

in Kaylee. And the way you do that is by telling stories about her, making it personal. So it's not just a name. It's now an individual who you can relate to someone in your own life. So when you're thinking about things, as far as judging the evidence, it makes it more personal for you,

which in the case of a little child, that's a good thing, especially if you're looking for a guilty verdict. I agree. I do it with most of my YouTube videos. I spend a good amount of time building up who the victim was, especially if it's a child. Little things like what their favorite TV show was. You know, so if you're a parent watching and you have a child and your child's favorite show is Blue's Clues and this little victim's favorite show was Blue's Clues. Now suddenly you're invested. And I want you to be invested in this person as if they could be your child or your loved

one, because then there's more impact there. Yeah, I absolutely agree. We did the same thing on Breaking Homicide. We spent the first 42-minute show. We probably spent the first 15, 20 minutes meeting the family, hearing about the... I'd always do the line, we want to know about your so-and-so, not as a victim, but as a person, who they were in life. And we always, that segment was always well-received. And the family, most importantly, when they had to watch the show as it came out, they always appreciated that. I always got text messages, emails, phone

calls saying this, you know, I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but this first part, we really appreciate it. So yeah, it doesn't go unnoticed. Linda Burdick said that at 12.50 p.m. on June 16th, 2008, Casey left the house on Hope Spring Drive with Kaylee, telling her parents that they were spending the night with a babysitter named Zanny. But as the jury would find, there was no such person. Linda Burdick said, quote, Kaylee's death allowed Casey Anthony to live the good life, at least for those 31 days, end quote. And of course, throughout this opening statement, throughout much of the trial, actually, Casey's very like emotive. She's shaking her head no. She's, you know, looking very, she's got her lips pursed.

Like you can tell when somebody purses their lips like that. It's a body language thing. They want to say something, but they can't. So they're like physically preventing themselves from saying it. And then Jose Baez got up and he faced the jury and he asked them how in the world a mother could go 31 days without reporting her child missing. And Baez said that the answer was relatively simple. Kaylee was never missing. He said Kaylee had died on June 16, 2008, when she drowned in the family swimming pool. Now, the following is the story that the defense told the judge, jury, and gathered audience, an audience that included Casey's parents, George and Cindy Anthony. Jose Baez said,

quote, you're going to hear that Kaylee loved to swim and Kaylee could get out of the house very easily and did so on that day. We hear about it every day or once a week or once every other week. We hear a story on the news or we'll see a little blurb in the newspaper about some poor child that accidentally drowned in the swimming pool. In the state of Florida, the number one way children dies by drowning in swimming pools. You will hear stories about a family that is incredibly dysfunctional. You will hear about ugly things, secret things, things that people don't speak about, things that Casey never spoke about. On June 16th, 2008, after Kaylee died, Casey did what she's been doing all her life, or for most of it, hiding her pain,

going into that dark corner and pretending that she does not live in the situation that she's living. She went back to that deep, ugly place called denial to pretend as if nothing was wrong. And you'll see as the evidence comes in that this is the most logical solution of the evidence. Something's not right here. Something's not right with this girl. End quote. Who's he defending? I mean, obviously something's not right with this girl. Am I right? So I just want to weigh in here real quick because I know you're going to talk more about it. You're going to kind of elaborate on it. But what Jose wants us to believe, and we've gone over this now for the last seven parts, talking about Cindy, talking about George and their actions and reactions to this whole situation.

And from what Stephanie has told me, he's not going to lean into Cynthia. He's going to basically keep her out of it, which is smart because some of her reactions, especially the 911 call and stuff seemed genuine. She was genuinely looking for Kaylee. That's, I mean, regardless of what you think of Cindy Anthony, it sounds like a grandmother who's actively trying to find her granddaughter, including going to Universal Studios. So she was put in a lot of effort. George has been a little bit more reserved. So that even being the case, I still feel like there were things, even his mannerisms, sitting at the jailhouse where he's doing the phone calls and he's trying to elicit information from Casey. That would not be the smart move of a co-conspirator.

Because what if while you're doing that, you're trying to basically build a narrative for yourself, right? Like you're trying to get yourself out of it, not be connected to it, where you're sitting there going, Casey, you're driving the ship. You're in charge. You're ultimately the boss here. You tell us what to do. And you're trying to paint yourself like you don't know what's going on when in actuality you do. You're running the risk that Casey, who's very unstable, she's going to go, dad, why are you playing it like this? You were in on it the whole time because there's a glass, there's a piece of glass or a phone call between you. So it's not like you can communicate and kind of plan this. You're running the risk by poking the bear where she's going to expose you.

So I don't think that would have been a smart move by George to do that, but nevertheless, we'll save it for the end. But I just wanted to put that out there because I do know where this is going. And for you to completely believe that you have to discredit or disregard everything that Stephanie has kind of laid out to us over these last seven parts. So I won't go too deep into it. We'll save it for the end. We should take a quick break. We'll be right back.

So Jose Baez told the jury that it had all started when Casey was eight years old and her father started coming into her bedroom and he began to touch her inappropriately. Now, during the Frye hearing, the prosecution had noticed that there were two new witnesses added to the list of expert witnesses. Dr. Jeffrey Danziger, the psychiatrist who had given Casey Anthony an evaluation when she was first arrested, and Dr. William Weitz, a psychologist from Fort Lauderdale. What was not included was what they planned to testify about. So sensing another Baez ambush, the prosecution called the defense team into Judge Perry's chambers to force them to reveal what they were hiding. The defense team claimed that these two mental health experts were going to be crucial in explaining why Casey behaved the way she did

during the 31 days her child was missing. And these experts were going to testify to the fact that Casey had been molested, not only by her father, George, but also by her older brother, Lee. Jeff Ashton and the team, they then arranged to sit down and talk to both Danziger and Weitz before the trial started. Now, on the day that they talked to Dr. Danziger, Ashton said that Danziger arrived looking uneasy, and he told the prosecution that he was uncomfortable being the vector of this information. Now, the word vector means a vehicle to spread disease. Danziger said that these were very, very serious allegations against someone in a situation where there was no other evidence

that anything had actually happened besides Casey's word, of course. Ashton said that he'd known Dr. Jeff Danziger for 20 years and he'd never seen him display such reluctance in testifying. But, quote, that day as we waited to begin the deposition, his demeanor was truly startling. In my opinion, he saw himself that day, not as a physician giving a diagnosis, but as a vehicle for the End quote. Casey had told Jeffrey Danziger that George had been molesting her since the age of eight, and this abuse had included oral sex, vaginal sex, and more. And this had gone on until she was in her early teens. Casey also told Dr. Danziger that her brother Lee had entered her bedroom once when she was a young teen,

and he had groped her breasts, but when she woke up, he just stood there looking at her, and then Lee did not return to her room to molest her again after that. Casey also told Danziger what she claimed happened on the day of June 16, 2008. She said that she always made sure that Kaylee went to bed with her, in the same room, in the same bed, so that she could protect her daughter from George Anthony's molesting ways. On the morning of June 16, Casey had slept in, and she was woken up at 9 a.m. by George Anthony yelling, Where's Kaylee? After searching the house, George found Kaylee floating in the

pool dead. And Casey claimed he walked into the house holding a limp, dripping wet Kaylee in his arms, screaming at Casey that this was her fault. Casey claimed that she ran into her room and that was the last time she'd seen Kaylee. So essentially what Casey is saying is George confronted her with the dead body of her two-year-old child and Casey ran into her room for some reason. And then, you know, she doesn't know what happened to Kaylee after. She doesn't know what George did with Kaylee. So there's no conversation between Kaylee and George where George was like, don't worry, honey, I've got this. Like, let me handle it. Let daddy handle it. I've got this. He just said, this is your fault. And then she ran into her room,

not towards her daughter, into her room. And then Kaylee was gone. Okay. I'm going to hear you out for the rest of this too, because initially when we were talking about this episodes, one, two, three, even maybe four, this was a very plausible theory and still maybe. So I want to hear the layout of the chain of events, according to Baez. Because, you know, listen, I did come into this believing this was a possibility. So and I'm, you know, I want to hear if for me it adds up. But Casey also told Dr. Danziger that she did not believe Kaylee's death had been an accident. She didn't think that her daughter could have gotten into the pool herself because she wouldn't have been able to get the pool ladder up. Casey believed that George Anthony had started molesting Kaylee,

and so he purposely killed her. This is what she told Dr. Danziger. Now, they don't really go with that theory in court. They don't talk about that part. And to me, that's telling, right? Because if you're going to bring up the molestation part, if you're going to bring up the fact that George Anthony was present when Kaylee died in the pool by accident, why wouldn't you bring up Casey's theory that she personally felt it wasn't an accident, it was on purpose? Most likely because that was going to be far too hard for the jury to buy. I mean, looking at George, who did show a lot of emotion during the trial, especially when Kaylee was being talked about. He cried. You know, he was he was there every single day. So I think that Baez was like, I can't sell the fact that this man would purposely drowned his his granddaughter in the pool.

But I can sell that he did molest his daughter and Kaylee accidentally drowned in the pool. I think part of it too, not being a lawyer myself is it's hearsay. So when Casey or bias is talking about experiences that Casey had her being molested by her father, her being molested by her brother. And then also what she personally observed with George coming in, holding Kaylee, her running into a room. Those are alleged firsthand experiences. If she started to speculate on why Kaylee went into the pool, why that happened, I think the prosecution would have objected and said, Casey Anthony is not an expert.

She hasn't had a chance to interview George Anthony. And therefore, it's inadmissible because her theory is not based on fact, and it's not something she personally experienced, witnessed, heard, or saw. So I don't think the court would have let that in. Someone, if you're an attorney, correct me on that, but I think as soon as you start going into speculation on the part of the defendant, the prosecution would immediately object to that because if that speculation isn't based on a personal experience, it's not even hearsay because

she didn't hear this from another person. She's basically just speculating on what might have been the reason behind it. Yeah, well, wouldn't her saying all of this be hearsay anyways? Because there's no physical evidence to back it up. So we're hearing it from Casey, which makes it hearsay. That's the definition of hearsay. No hearsay. My understanding of the definition is hearsay is when Stephanie, if I get up on a stand and I say, Stephanie Harlow told me this, that is the definition of hearsay where it's coming through a third person where you didn't personally see it or hear it. Somebody told you about it.

And therefore it's hearsay because that person isn't there to confirm that is what you actually saw or heard. This is speculation. I don't even think it qualifies under hearsay where it's like nobody has, nobody has substantiated Casey Anthony as an expert. And therefore her opinion on why this might have taken place is irrelevant and inadmissible. That's my understanding of it. Yeah. So maybe it wasn't hearsay what Casey was doing. It was just straight out lying. Yeah. It's straight out lying.

Which is better. At worst, right? Or at minimum, her guessing as to the reason. And frankly, that's not part of what you can admit into a court. Nobody cares what Casey thinks might've happened. But when she talks about personal experiences, like her being personally molested by her father or her brother, that may be relevant because if you're going down the road of Kaylee was being molested by George, you're basically putting two and two together for the jury by saying, Hey, we have someone here who's personally been molested and can speak to that. And so it isn't that far of a theory to say that maybe her daughter was as well. But when she starts saying it deliberately, like this is what I think, I think the prosecution would have shot it down.

Again, not a lawyer, but I think that's the standard. Interesting. Well, the prosecution also found out that during Dan Ziger's first interview with Casey, he had asked her directly and specifically if she'd ever been sexually abused. And she said no. Casey also told the same story to Dr. Weitz with small variations. Casey told Weitz that the abuse at the hands of her father had continued well into her late teens, and she claimed that she was afraid Kaylee may have been George Anthony's biological child. Now, for those of you in the comments who keep saying that you think George Anthony could be Kaylee's father, like, I get it. I understand. But there was DNA testing done.

I think we said it at one point in one of the early episodes on this case. There was DNA testing done. I think we said it at one point in one of the early episodes on this case. There was DNA testing done. Neither Lee nor George Anthony was the father of Kaylee Anthony. So that's kind of something that can't even be said anymore because it's been proven to be wrong. But we've talked about so much information in these episodes that I would understand if you had missed that part. But I do want to clarify it again. And Casey also told Weitz that she told her mother Cindy about Lee's abuse, but her mother had called her a whore and did nothing about it. Casey never says whether she told Cindy about the abuse by George or the alleged abuse by George. Another change in the story centered around the clothes that Kaylee had been wearing

on June 16th. Casey told Dr. Weitz that she'd dressed Kaylee in a nightgown before going to bed, but when George retrieved Kaylee from the pool, she was dressed in a pair of striped shorts and a pink shirt like the ones that were found with her body. Also, George Anthony was wet from the waist up, but the lower portion of his body was dry, which Dr. Weitz felt was an indication that George had held Kaylee underwater while he stood outside the pool. This is the stupidest shit I've ever heard of. Because first of all, I don't believe this story at all from Casey. I don't. Some of you might, and that's fine. I do not. And wouldn't it also be an indication that Kaylee was like floating in

the pool and he reached in and grabbed her out? It doesn't have to be an indication that he like held her under the water. That was what the dry bottom clothes told you, Dr. Weitz? Yeah. I don't buy that segment of it either. And I think even with, I don't know if Kaylee was a swimmer at that point. I don't think she was. I saw pictures. I posted them in our videos before where I think you're seeing, she's seen with like floaties on. Yeah. She always has floaties on. She's only two.

Yeah. And I found like two or three pictures of her going up that ladder. That's in question. And I think if you, if that was the route you were going, you would just put the child in the pool that I'm not going to say any more than that. You don't need to hold her down. She can't swim. So yeah, I'm with you.

I don't buy that section of it. I'm still open. I'm still hearing this whole theory because again, that part is speculation. There's no evidence that he would do that, but I'm still open to the idea of an accidental drowning, but it seems like they're going away from that where they both could have been up and this was an accident. They don't know what they're doing. Okay. Let's keep hearing more. I'm listening. But wait, there's more.

OK, Casey said that she wasn't even sure that Kaylee was dead when George left the house with her. And at different times throughout the next 31 days, George had told her that Kaylee was alive and well. Dr. Weitz did say that he'd given Casey many tests, including one to diagnose PTSD brought on by trauma, like sexual abuse, but the test results didn't support his conclusion that she had been victimized. He said he was not diagnosing her with PTSD, but all the things Casey had done in the aftermath of her daughter's death was a sign of her being in denial as a result of this alleged sexual abuse, which caused her to deny and suppress things. Dr. Weitz claimed that he believed that when Casey had told people that Kaylee was with a nanny, she actually believed this. And when Casey brought the police to

Universal Studios, she actually believed that she worked there. Now, Jeff Ashton asked him, well, what about when she turned around and said, OK, I don't actually work here. Weitz explained this is the ability for a person to go in and out of denial at random times, which is super convenient because you could just use that as a blanket defense for anybody. Then like, oh, no, when when she lied, she was in denial. But then five minutes later, when she admitted to lying, she was no longer in denial. You know, I agree. I'm with you on what you just said, but I keep thinking about something. So I have to bring it up, even though it's not completely in line with what you just were talking about. But it's a couple steps back. You know, when you told us in an episode very beginning, you had mentioned that George Anthony had stated that before leaving the house, Kaylee said to him, I'm going to see Zanny. I'm going to see Zanny. And I always found that odd because you had said, you know, that might be a sign of premeditation because Casey basically said to Kaylee, we're going to see Zanny the nanny. But I would think Kaylee had never met Zanny the Nanny, so I don't

know why she would have brought that up. And I always felt it was odd that George said that. And I wonder, just to play devil's advocate here, just to kind of really be unbiased and look at both sides, could it make sense that if George was involved with this more than we might think, where this wasn't something that he participated in. Could he have decided to say this Zanny the Nanny thing like Casey was doing? Maybe they collaborated on that so that it would look like it was an actual kidnapping by saying, oh, that came from Kaylee that that was said. I'm not saying I believe it, but again, if I'm playing both sides, maybe that's an element to it where this accidental drowning happens. And then Casey and George collaborate together to

say, okay, you're going to say that you brought Kaylee to go see Zanny. And then we can kind of go with this whole kidnapping theory. I'm not saying I believe it. I'm just trying to balance it out for the people out there who may still believe that George was somehow involved. Because although I think most people believe Casey's involved, is it fair for me to say that a lot of people think George is as well? Or is that like a misstatement by me? I don't think that. I'm sure there's some people, but I don't think it's- At least the majority. A generally accepted theory. And no, I personally don't think George Anthony was involved at all. I do not think he molested Casey or Kaylee for that matter. I don't think Lee did. It's just all very convenient that she's, you know, sitting in prison pool thing doesn't even come out until the trial. Like, why wouldn't you say that at any point while the police were giving you out after out?

Like, was it an accident, Casey? You can tell us it was an accident. Why not just say that? And I think what happened is Casey coached Kaylee to say that. Go out and tell Papa that you're going to see Zanny, right? Like you said, Kaylee never met Zanny. So Casey clearly told her to say that, which is disgusting because she literally used that child to give her an alibi for killing that child. And if George Anthony

really was on board with the whole Zanny the nanny theory, then he would have been saying that more. You know, they did a crap ton of interviews and George wasn't like, we got to find Zanny. George was like, you know, the kind of people that Casey was hanging out with, like her friends and stuff. He was like going in a completely different direction than Zanny the nanny. So I think if that was a planned corroboration between them, that probably would have been more. More fine tuned. Yeah. And more like consistent. believe that either. However, how nice would it be right now to have the GPS coordinates for George Anthony as well? We know we have Casey Anthony, but how nice would it be if we knew if they were able to get the coordinates for George to confirm or deny that his phone hit in the area where Kaylee was later found? Man, I would pay to know. It's actually an interesting question

because Marsha Clark, she claims for something we'll talk about later, but a certain Google search that wasn't found until many years after the trial. Marsha Clark was in on that investigation and she claimed that it had to be Casey who was doing it because George Anthony's cell phone pings showed that he wasn't at the house.

And then Jose Baez comes in and he's like, shut up, Marsha Clark. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't have George Anthony's cell phone pings. And Marsha Clark was like, yeah, I do. You shut up, Jose. And they kind of went back and forth. So it's kind of like strange. Like, do they have them?

Were they pulled? Because Jose Baez says no. But Marsha Clark says, we want to know. We want to know. That's a big question. And for the obvious reasons, right? I mean, she's accusing him of being the one who disposed of Kaylee's body. Well, if he was over there for even a short period of time, his phone would have, just like we went through the whole episode triangulating Casey's phone, his would have as well. Where I think that falls apart, just to go back to it, is we can't

deny the fact that Casey was asking for a shovel. And I'm saying like you saw her movements after she left on June 16th, like driving all over, you know, going like staying kind of in the same neighborhood, pinging off the same cell phone tower she would ping off if she was home. And the place where Kaylee was found was just half a mile away from her home. So, but she was still traveling. So what was she doing? Just driving in circles around the neighborhood? No, I don't think so. But I don't know. I'll say this and we're never going to be, we'll never know unless someone comes out and says it. I think Casey Anthony is a scumbag. Scumbag. I think that goes without saying. However, I will say just based on interviews

that I've done with people who are not good people and then some that are good, is it impossible that she was molested by George Anthony? Is it impossible that she was molested by Lee? No, it's not impossible. Does it apply to this particular case as far as Kaylee's concerned? They're trying to make it that way, but we don't believe that's the case. I will say, as much as I can't casey anthony there may be truth to this

However, the fact that you chose this time to reveal it for self-preservation reasons is where you lose us because you've lied so much Throughout this entire experience as you just brought up again I had it noted down here, too You never mentioned anything about an accidental drowning when you were arrested by, when you were even interviewed by police. You stuck with this theory all the time up until the point where Jose Baez got a chance to look at it and said, Hey, basically the puzzle pieces don't fit. And that's when you changed course. So even though there might be truth to what you're saying about a tragic set of circumstances that you may have experienced

at the hands of George Anthony, unfortunately, I think it's hard for most people to believe you because of your past and how many times you've lied. So it doesn't mean much, but I just wanted to put that out there that we do understand some people may choose not to say these things because of the effect it would have on the entire family. Casey is an outlier and she doesn't apply to most of you who have gone through these experiences, maybe not said anything. It seems like she's not doing it for the right reasons. That's, I think, what we can take away from it. But may there be truth to it? I don't know if it happened or not. I'm done giving her the benefit of the doubt for anything. Right. Exactly. And it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things because you've already

said it, which is important. She was using that as a way to basically develop her theory as to why George drowned Kaylee. We both agree that doesn't fly. I agree. So as soon as Jose Baez found out that the prosecution had talked to these two witnesses, the doctors, Danziger and Weitz, he removed Jeff Danziger from the witness list and Dr. Weitz never ended up testifying either because the prosecution had then gotten permission from the judge to have Casey examined by their own mental health expert, and the defense didn't want that. So basically, they wanted to put their own mental health experts out there and not have any other mental health experts contrasting what theirs said. And as soon as they found out, the prosecution was like, well, we'll bring our own person in who's going to say, you know, there's nothing wrong with this girl, like mentally, and she doesn't have PTSD, and there's no signs that she has trauma from sexual abuse. So they pulled their own mental health experts and said, we don't need it. Now, despite this, the prosecution set a meeting with George and Cindy Anthony, knowing that even without the

experts, Baez was still going to use the alternate theory during the trial. By the time Jeff Ashton sat down with the Anthonys, Baez had already met with Cindy alone, and he had told her that Casey had authorized him to say that Kaylee had died in her house and it had been an accident, and the authorities were now looking into George Anthony's possible involvement. And Jeff Ashton was shocked to find out that Jose had told Cindy this because it was an absolute lie. They were not looking into George Anthony. And he believes that Baez told Cindy this to make her distrust the authorities so that she wouldn't cooperate with them. Sounds like a pretty sound theory to me. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and find out what Jeff Ashton talked about with Cindy and George.

When the prosecution did sit down with Cindy and George Anthony, Jeff Ashton said that Cindy was angry and George looked as if he had been crying. Now, the prosecution had allowed the Anthony's to hear the news about the story that Casey and Baez intended to tell in court from their lawyer first. So the lawyer went in with George and Cindy Anthony told them the whole story. And then Jeff Ashton sat down with George and Cindy. And the first thing George Anthony said to Jeff Ashton was, quote, I just want you to know that none of this is true, end quote. And Cindy was sitting beside him. And, you know, Jeff Ashton said she put his her hand on his knee and she was like, don't worry, honey, no one no one would believe this, you know, stuff like that. That's kind of cute. You know, from these these two people, like they I don't think they really like each other, but I think that they love each other. And so they're gonna, you know, try to have each other's backs like Bonnie and Clyde, ride or die kind of thing. But she at least comforted him. George Anthony was a mess. And he said the whole like Kaylee drowning in the swimming pool, it was a bullshit story. He was like that never happened at all. On May 22nd, two days before the trial started, George Anthony met

with Jeff Ashton again, and he told Ashton that he knew Casey had done something to Kaylee. He just didn't know what. He said that the case had been about Casey for too long, and Kaylee had been lost in the shuffle. During the trial, Baez told the jury that the duct tape was the only thing that tied Kaylee's death to anyone in the Anthony home, which wasn't true, by the way, and he believed that either George Anthony had put the duct tape on Kaylee after she died, or Roy Kronk had put it there when he'd first stumbled upon her remains. This is a very scattered theory. And this is the case with a lot of what Jose Baez was throwing out. That's literally what he was doing. He was throwing a bunch of stuff out to see if it

would stick. And every time I see footage from the trial of Jose Baez doing this stuff, I ask myself again, like, how did the jury come up with their verdict? Because it's pretty clear to me, pretty clear and evident what he's doing. The prosecution called George Anthony as their first witness, and he didn't change his story one iota from the original story that he had told the police. When Jeff Ashton asked George if Kaylee had drowned and if he had disposed of her remains, George began to cry and he said he would never have done that. And while he was talking and saying this,

Casey was rolling her eyes and shaking her head throughout his testimony, like the rude little brat that she is. George also emphatically denied ever molesting his daughter or his granddaughter. On day two of the trial, Casey's boyfriend Tony Lazzaro took the stand, and he testified that Casey had told him she'd been molested by her brother Lee. Tony said Casey had told him this around either June 30th or July 5th of 2008, and although Casey had never told him that her father had molested her, she had told Tony that George would often hit her. So the judge ended up ruling this as hearsay. The jury was not allowed to hear this portion of Tony's testimony. And once again, she's still telling him this stuff

after Kaylee goes missing, right? So she could already be sort of building this plan B. She could already be building this alternate theory, this alternate defense when when she told Tony this. And once again, there's no evidence that George Anthony was physically abusive to to Casey where he's hitting her and she's, you know, showing up to to her friend's house with black eyes or, you know, bruises all over her. There's no evidence of this at all. And honestly, sorry, George, but I don't think he has the balls to do anything. And you see their dynamic often. And this is why I really wanted to stress on their dynamic where he was sitting there and he was like, you're the boss. You're the CEO, Casey. The dynamic between George and his daughter is very clear to me that she's in charge, that she runs him and not the other way around. He whoever you believe is in the afterlife. And you want to clear your conscience

because you know, that could be a consideration for where you end up and to go as extensive as he did in that letter, basically saying Casey didn't do anything wrong. I think there's, I think she might know something, but it's not her. And to say that the reason he was doing this was because he wanted to go be with Kaylee, it doesn't fit. It just doesn't fit. And at that moment, he's not trying to tell a story to police. He's speaking to God or whoever he believes in, because that's all that really matters based on what he did. And I said it before, I'll say it now. I don't believe this was a cry for help or sympathy. I truly think he was trying to kill himself. I really do. And I don't think that he was planning on surviving that day. So I don't think this was a ploy or a strategy. I think it

was genuinely trying to kill himself and he was putting down his last genuine thoughts before going to the next life. So you have to consider all that when you're thinking that this guy supposedly did all these things that he's being accused of. It just seems a little far-fetched. Yeah. And if he had done this, if he had taken part in what happened to Kaylee, the way that Casey said he did, don't you think he would have said that in this letter to get her off? He's not just going to leave her hanging in prison when he's the one that put her there or he had a part in putting her there. He still clearly loves her. And when he say like, this was all me, I did this, this is how it happened, et cetera, et cetera. So Casey

is innocent. She was just collateral damage here. Yeah. Absolutely. He could have even lied and took blame for it just to save his daughter, but he never did that. He was speaking from the heart, I believe, and genuinely putting out what he thought, which was Casey might have known more, but she was covering for someone else. And he just felt bad that, you know, he wasn't there to protect Kaylee in her time of need from this person, whoever that was. He was still blinded by his love for Casey and he was defending her to what he believed to be his last breath. So yeah, I just think it doesn't add up. We got the chance to hear that word by word from you. And it's so important because it's not a paraphrasing. You read it exactly the way it was written verbatim. And to me, it does not sound like

a man who's hiding something. Yeah. And that was hard for me to read because there was a lot of grammar mistakes in there. It was so important, though. And now even more important when you consider the angle that the defense is going with. That's why we have to talk about those details. I agree. On day four, George Anthony returned to the stand to talk about the piece of duct tape that had been found on his gas cans.

He told the jury that when Casey returned the gas can to him, the cap on the vent hole had been missing, and so he put a piece of duct tape on the hole on June 24, 2008. Now, this would pose a problem of consistency, though, because George had originally told the authorities that he'd put that tape on that gas can years ago, and he would later say it was an effort to protect Casey and kind of like stick with her story. And obviously, Jose Baez took every advantage of this change in the story during his cross-examination. But George Anthony held up pretty well. I mean, I think it's pretty clear that duct tape came from the house.

The duct tape that was on the gas cans and the duct tape that was on Kaylee's mouth, it came from that house because that tape was also found on some, you know, those flyers, like missing persons flyers for Kaylee and stuff that were put up around town. That same duct tape was used for those flyers. So in my opinion, where's that roll of duct tape? It was probably used during the Anthony's search for Kaylee in the aftermath of Casey being arrested. It was probably used and thrown away and no longer in the house or maybe left it like the command center where the people were making the flyers. Who knows? But it's gone.

Right. But nobody, including Baez, is disputing the fact that the tape that was found on Kaylee originated from the Anthony home, which is really limiting your suspect pool. Exactly. Which is why it's so frustrating to me that the jury found her not guilty. Because if you look at it, that tape definitely came from the house. Jose Baez said it himself. Right.

And so you now as a jury have to look and you have to say, do think looking at Casey and what she did makes it look much more possible that it was her. So I don't, it's like the jury wasn't paying attention, man. On May 28th, Cindy Anthony took the stand and said that Casey had been talking about Zanny the nanny since 2006. And so you would think after all that had happened, you know, Casey now accusing Cindy's husband, George, of not only molestation, but, you know, being a part of Kaylee's death and the cover-up of her death, Cindy might make an effort now to be honest, right? Not only with the jury, but with herself. Unfortunately, it seems that still waters run deep and Cindy was unable to pull herself out of the toxic pattern she had been living in

since her daughter was born. In his book Imperfect Justice, Jeff Ashton said, quote, During cross-examination, Cindy's ambivalence that we'd been witnessing for the last three years came roaring back. She spent some time painting an idealistic picture of Casey as a mother, and even when talking about why she thought Casey's long-term lies were so elaborate and detailed, she couldn't help but excuse Casey. To her, the scope and intricacy of the lies implied that they were illusions, not lies. Cindy equated them to a situation where children create imaginary people. Once again, Cindy appeared to be whitewashing every bad behavior her daughter demonstrated. The codependency

between Cindy and her daughter was striking. She was finding it impossible to make Casey accountable for anything. End quote. And remember, this is the same trial where Cindy Anthony would claim that Casey hadn't looked up chloroform on the computer. Cindy had been looking up chlorophyll on the computer because she was afraid her dog would get poisoned by bamboo roots. So yeah, clearly Cindy is in a deep river of denial. But when Jose Baez attempted to get Cindy to admit that the smell in Casey's vehicle was more like garbage than a dead body, Cindy sheepishly answered, quote, the closest thing I could resemble it to was rotting flesh, end quote. And Cindy said she had worked as a nurse for quite some time,

and she'd had some experience with decomposing bodies and that exact smell. Detective Yuri Malik took the stand, and Jose Baez asked him why the police had never questioned Casey about the family swimming pool. And Malik responded, we did ask her about the swimming pool. In fact, after the whirlwind trip she had brought them on through Universal Studios, they'd asked Casey specifically about the possibility of Kaylee dying in an accidental drowning. And Casey had fiercely insisted that this was not what happened. It was the nanny who had kidnapped Kaylee. During Karen Lowe's testimony about Kaylee's hair that had been found in the trunk of Casey's Pontiac Sunfire, the one that had the death banding on it, Lowe made it clear to the jury

that the hair could not have fallen out and then decomposed or then got that death banding. It had to have come from the body of a decomposing human being. Stephen Shaw, a hair and fiber examination specialist with the FBI, he corroborated Lowe's findings by telling the jury that he could not recreate any conditions in which a hair would show the death banding other than human decomposition. When Dr. Arpad Voss took the stand, he told the jury how he had jumped back when he'd first opened one of the cans that contained a carpet sample from the truck of Casey's car. He said the odor of human decomposition was so strong it had shocked him. Jeff Ashton also said that he himself had opened up two cans of air samples from Casey's trunk, and he had done this right

before the trial, and years later, the smell of human decomposition was still detectable in these air samples, which had been sealed since they'd been taken from Casey's car. When the medical examiner, Dr. G, took the stand, she would not back down from her ruling of Kaylee's death as a homicide. She told the jury that in 100% of the cases of accidental drownings of children, 911 was called. 100% of them. She said, quote, no matter how stiff the body is, they always call 911 in hopes that the child could be saved, end quote. So Dr. G is basically saying like if this had truly been an accident, Casey and George would have called 911 because that's how it always goes. Like if you had nothing to do with what happened, if it was truly an

accident, you'd call 911 because you'd hope that there would be a way to save your child, even though logically, you know that there's probably not. Let me ask you something real quick. I was going to say this for the end, but you brought this up. So I was as part of my analysis. Let me ask you something. If whether it was intentional or accidental, if Casey had facilitated this drowning, like I put her in the pool without the floaties, whatever, or it was a genuinely an accident. If she had called the police, what would have happened to her? Casey? Nothing. Zero. She would have been looked at as a victim. She would have been someone who everyone would have gathered around and supported and been there for her. She would have got all the attention she wanted if it was intentional. But if it was accidental, it would have been nothing.

No punishment for it. And as Dr. G said, 100% of the time when it's an accident, you do that. You know where you could get yourself in trouble is if it was an accident and you take her body and you throw her in your car and you bring her somewhere else. That's when you can get in trouble. Yeah, because that's not an accident then. Yeah. There you go. And that's not me trying to lead you down that path.

That's just common sense again, where if you're trying to avoid finding yourself in a situation, like if you have this accidental drowning and your rationale behind taking Kaylee's body to another location and trying to hide it is to avoid the possibility of being in trouble, right? Being charged with a crime. It would make more sense, especially for a former police officer, right? To say, call the police. Nothing's going to happen to us that way. Even if it was all premeditated, if they wanted to even look like an accident, that's what you would do. And so the fact that that didn't happen, I hope it leads most people down the road because we're looking at all these

things that happened beforehand, trying to figure out if the actions and behaviors of these individuals involved suggest premeditation, suggest a homicide over an accident. Well, I also ask you to look at the actions after the incident because they too can be indicative of what took place beforehand and whether or not it was intentional or accidental. So I'm glad Dr. G said it because it was going to be one of my points at the end. Yeah. And I mean, some people could say like, oh, no, you know, Casey felt guilty. She felt guilty. So she thought that they would look at her as being guilty just because she'd been negligent in allowing her child to to go into the pool unsupervised. But I can guarantee you that every single parent that called 911 when their child accidentally drowned in the pool also felt guilty. I guarantee you I will put my life on it, that every single one of those

parents blamed themselves, even if it was truly on it, that every single one of those parents blamed themselves, even if it was truly an accident, because that's what a parent does when something happens to their child. They immediately feel responsible. So even with that guilt, even with that, you know, I failed my child, I should have been there, et cetera, et cetera, they still called 911 where Casey didn't. And so to me, that suggests a different kind of guilt, a culpable guilt. Here's the problem with that. And Baez is the one that made this real for me. I could see a situation, maybe, and I really can't, but I'll play ball for right now. I could see a situation where if Casey was home alone and Kaylee drowned, because she doesn't have any experience or background in this area, she might get scared and decide to make the situation worse.

But that's not what Baez and Casey Anthony are portraying to us. They want us to believe that a former police officer. A grown ass man. A grown man who has law enforcement experience decided that it would be better to do what he did to Kaylee and transport her to a different location as opposed to calling the police and being honest and forthright about what happened. That's what they want us to believe. I could have bought the idea that this young girl made this stupid decision and actually made a bad situation worse. That's not the direction they chose to go. So sorry, Jose. We're going to

go with what you're saying and that doesn't make sense. And then Jose Baez gets to the story and he's like, we've got to edit this. Like, we've got to change it a little bit because the jury's not going to, you know, have an easy time believing that this little girl's grandfather would have just purposely drowned her in the pool. So we're going to say it was an accident. And that's what I'm saying. But to know that Casey in the beginning and probably throughout wanted her father to to have this murder pinned on him. Not just he was part of the cover up, but she wanted people to think that he had purposely killed Kaylee. And man, I mean, that is I understand things happened. You're not happy with your parents, whatever. I can never do that to a family member. And she's ruthless.

I don't really have anything to add. You nailed it. Take my part out. Dr. G also testified, saying, quote, There is no child that should have duct tape on its face when it dies. There is no reason to put duct tape on the face after they die, end quote. Then Dr. Michael Warren, the head of the C.A. Pound Human Identification Laboratory, he took the stand and he did this like composite thing. It's very difficult for me to explain because I'm not great with computers and stuff. But what he did is he kind of used three photographs of Kaylee Anthony to illustrate to the court and show where the duct tape had been placed on her face when she died. And this was very impactful. It was meant to be impactful. I believe one of the photos was of Kaylee's skull. And it would sort of turn into a little video where it would flash between the fleshed out portions of her face into the skull and show where the duct tape would have been placed over her face

when she had not been decomposed. And that was to show that whoever put it there didn't just put it over her mouth, right? Because you'd think if you want to kidnap a child and keep them quiet, you put duct tape over their mouth so they can't yell or call for help. But to place it on Kaylee's face in the way that it was placed, completely cutting off all her airways, covering her mouth and her nose, this was purposeful. This was meant to kill her. During this testimony, Judge Perry had to call for a break in the trial

because Casey was becoming visibly upset. Now, when the court was back in session, Dr. Neal Haskell also testified that the coffin flies found in Casey's trunk had been compared to the flies that were collected at the scene where Kaylee's remains were found, and he said that they were exactly the same. The prosecution presented their theory that Casey's main motivator in everything was herself. There was clearly conflict between Casey and her mother, Cindy. Cindy expected Casey to, you know, get a job, go to work, contribute to the household. But Casey

didn't want to work. She didn't want to contribute to anyone or anything besides herself. Eventually, Casey found that lying to her parents made it easier for her to do whatever she wanted to do. You know, so i got a promotion at universal studios so now i have to work really late at night i got a job at sports authority and i have to do inventory so i have to stay there longer etc etc but then casey had to start stealing from her friends and her family because she supposedly has all these jobs and these like high paying jobs but she doesn't have any money. And if she asks them for money, they're going to be like, yo, don't you, don't you work a job? So now she's got to, you know,

cover up her lies by stealing from the people closest to her. Now with that problem of time and money out of the way, you know, she's got the time because she's lying to everyone about going to work and she's got the money because she's stealing from everyone. But now Casey had another problem. She had the problem of Kaylee. Casey was telling people that she was bringing Kaylee to the nanny while Casey was at work all day. But Casey wasn't at work, right? In fact, Casey was actually with Kaylee all day long because there was no nanny. And we know this because Casey's friends remembered her bringing Kaylee around with her when she was hanging out with her friends. And then Cindy and George would get home from work in the evening, and Casey would want them to watch Kaylee while she went out with her friends and partied at night. But Cindy would be

like, what are you talking about, dude? You've been at work all day. I've been at work all day. Now you're home. Don't you want to spend time with your daughter, give her a bath, get her ready for bed, read her bedtime stories, like be a parent. Now, only Casey knew the truth that she wasn't at work and she'd actually been with Kaylee all day long. And now she wanted a break, but she couldn't say that because then her parents would know that she'd been lying about having a job. So when Casey began dating Ricardo Morales in early 2008, she really thought she'd found a father figure for her daughter. Ricardo worked hard. He was responsible. He was protective. He was good with Kaylee. He didn't like to go out a lot. He preferred to stay in at night. And Casey and Kaylee, they fit easily into this really low

key lifestyle. But then Casey met Tony Lazaro, Ricardo's polar opposite. Tony was big into the nightlife scene. You know. His job was to basically hang out at nightclubs. And Casey may have fit into that lifestyle, but little Kaylee did not. So that is the prosecution's theory, basically. And when you lay it all out like that, it sounds pretty applicable. But we are going to go a little bit deeper into that after this break. is a very good theory. Yes, it would make sense that Casey and Cindy were butting heads because Cindy would think that Casey had been at work all day not seeing Kaylee. And then when she gets home at night, Cindy's thinking like, don't you want to spend time with your daughter? Like your daughter's not going to know who you are. She's with her nanny all day and then she's with us at night.

Like you've got to be here and be a mother and be present. And Casey's over here like, yo, I was with her all day, but I can't tell you that because you think I have a job and I don't. So why didn't Casey just hand Kaylee over to Cindy Anthony, who had expressed wanting to take custody of the child anyways? Well, we don't really know. Maybe she had planned to do that until the evening of June 15th when Cindy confronted her about her lies and her stealing. In his book, Jeff Ashton wrote, quote, I imagine Casey told herself some lie to rationalize that murdering her baby was the best for Kaylee. Maybe she told herself that she didn't want Kaylee to grow up with Cindy, as she had. Or maybe she knew that it wouldn't be long before Kaylee began to really talk,

and once that happened, the made-up babysitter, the fake job, the whole world would come crashing down. When you're good at lying to other people, you get really good at lying to yourself. End quote. Jeff Ashton believed that Casey had used chloroform to put Kaylee to sleep. Then she had applied the duct tape over her mouth three times, wrapped around her head. She had then wrapped Kaylee in a blanket from her room, and then she put her in the trunk of her Sunfire to die. Casey then drove around talking on the phone. She went off to Blockbuster with Tony, snuggled up to him that night while her baby daughter slowly suffocated in the trunk of her car outside. The next day, she went back to the Anthony home, got the laundry bag and the garbage bags, and attempted to bury Kaylee in the backyard, but the shed was locked,

so she had to borrow a shovel from her neighbor, Brian Berner. Casey put Kaylee's body on the grass as she began to dig a hole. The prosecution believes that's why the cadaver dogs indicated at an area in the Anthony backyard by Kaylee's playhouse. Now realizing that digging a hole deep enough to hide a body was hard work, Casey returned the shovel and put Kaylee's playhouse. Now realizing that digging a hole deep enough to hide a body was hard work, Casey returned the shovel and put Kaylee back into her trunk. She then drove less than a mile down the road, walked 20 feet off the road, and left her daughter's body on the ground. It's crazy how a story makes sense when you use facts.

Right. Isn't that crazy how that happens? It makes complete sense. Isn't it crazy? You hear this one side. Let's say we love bias let's say we love casey anthony they laid out a theory that we've been talking about for the last for the last we've been talking about it for the last hour and where's like so many holes in it we're like what wait what but then so confusing wait she was molested wait what are we talking about here and then the prosecution comes

along and says well this is what we believed happened. And here's all the evidence to support it. From the cadaver dog, all these little things, a syringe that was found, all these little nuances that are actually things that can be proved in a court of law. And it just makes sense. The cell phone pings of where Casey was the day after. The shovel. The fact that she left the house with Kaylee, but then showed up at Blockbuster without

Kaylee. Right. Yeah. And by the way, what time was the blockbuster video again around 8 p.m around 8 yeah okay so i think that uh that that casey did exactly this i think she she did exactly this and i think when she was driving around the in her car around the neighborhood on june 16th calling tony and calling her friend and calling Cindy five or six times. I think that Kaylee was in her trunk, dying, being suffocated by this tape. And I mean, yeah, I do think she, I don't know how she got chloroform. I'm still on the fence about the chloroform. I don't know how she would have gotten it. I don't know how she would have made it. But it's Casey Anthony, man. Like anything goes, she's resourceful when she wants to be.

We've seen that. And if Casey Anthony wants something, she's going to find a way to get it. So I hope she used chloroform. I truly hope she used chloroform and that Kaylee was not conscious or aware of this happening because the alternate theory to that is that how you'd use household products to make chloroform or whatever. I want to make sure everyone knows this. And I think we all do. You know, we're only going off the searches that we have from the Anthony household. There's nothing saying that Casey wasn't out searching on other people's computers or phones throughout the last couple of months.

We're going off a very small sample size. No, but she did Google how to make chloroform. Correct on the thing. But it could have been more elaborate. And even that, you know, that was just the one search we had. The question has to be how long was she researching this? And was it from other computers as well? Or, you know, friends, laptops or whatever? You don't know.

So just having that on the home computer is very compelling. And then you think about the fact that she could have used other computers as well, public computers, library. You don't know. You don't know how extensive she went to try to cover her tracks. And there might be a lot more that we'll never know about because it was done on technology that wasn't accessible to law enforcement. Nothing else makes sense for Casey to leave on the 16th and then come back the next day to the house when her parents were gone and borrow a shovel and all of this. She don't care about digging up bamboo roots. She left this place. She's mad at these people. She's not going to come and do their

gardening. Why did the jury find her not guilty? I get it if you're like, that theory about George Anthony, that's interesting, kind of like you did but then like like you said when you heard this actual theory that made sense that lined up with the evidence and with the timeline you were like oh click boom that that makes so much sense and i can see that happening whereas with the george anthony accidental drowning pool thing you really have to like move and like squish the pieces together to even like make it make it work right we all know what happened though the jury with the jury you know they on june 5th 2011 the jury found casey not guilty of first degree murder they even found her not guilty of aggravated child abuse and they found her not guilty of aggravated manslaughter of a child. They did find her guilty of the, I think it was four counts of lying to police officer.

But she'd already been serving so much time that they basically gave her time served for that. And she became a free woman on July 17th, 2011. Now, this jury may have made the decision to find her guilty if they'd known about a Google search that Casey had made on the day her daughter went missing. Or an internet search, I should say. We all say Google search now, but you have to remember that's a browser and there's other browsers that exist. So it's an internet search that Casey made the day her daughter went missing. During the trial, the prosecution had shown evidence that the Anthony family computer had been used to make several searches, including searches for chloroform, chest trauma, internal bleeding, and neck breaking. But as it turned out, the police had missed a crucial piece of evidence.

On June 16, 2008, someone had used the computer to search for foolproof suffocation at a time when no one else could have possibly been home besides Casey. Unfortunately, the police had searched thoroughly through the Internet Explorer history, but they had missed the Firefox browser history. So when this was when this was investigated again a couple years later, they found this search. But then it was too late. You can't bring you can't bring Casey back to trial. It's a double jeopardy. And, you know, it's kind of just like, you guys messed up. You missed your shot. But I really, you know what? Knowing this jury, because I don't know who they are, like many of them are still anonymous, but knowing this jury and seeing the decision they made,

even after seeing all the evidence that we've been talking about, I still don't think it would have mattered, man. I don't think it would have mattered. And Jeff Ashton, he mentioned a lot in his book, like how the jury was kind of annoying him because he felt that they weren't really paying attention. They weren't really paying attention. And then they would go into deliberation. And he said, the only questions that were coming out of the jury deliberation, because they were like at a hotel or something, were like requests for DVDs and movies and stuff to watch. They never had questions about the evidence. They never wanted to like see a piece of the evidence again or, you know, get get further details or see part of the transcript in the court to like explain the evidence. It just it kind of seemed like I don't

know. I don't know. I don't want to say anything, but it kind of seemed like they weren't completely into it. No, I don't think it would have made a difference. I was going to say that when you're, you know, I don't want to interrupt you, but I don't think that one little piece we had how to make chloroform on there. And, you know, that didn't that didn't tip the scale. So I don't know if foolproof suffocation would have either. Unfortunately. Yeah, I feel like I personally feel like maybe this jury didn't understand what the term, you know, guilty beyond a reasonable doubt meant. Like I think that they thought that meant like we need to see complete proof and evidence that this happened. Like we need her fingerprints.

We need all of this physical evidence. We need a video of her doing it. Pretty much. They failed to look at the mountain of circumstantial evidence and understand that sometimes a mountain of circumstantial evidence can be as damning as, you know, one or two pieces of physical evidence. And, of course, I mean, I think that it was in this case. I just I don't know. So a month after the not guilty verdict was made, one of the jurors told People magazine, quote, Generally, none of us liked Casey Anthony at all. She seems like a horrible person, but the prosecutors did not of us liked Casey Anthony at all. She seems like a horrible person, but the prosecutors did not give us enough evidence to convict. They gave us a lot

of stuff that makes us think she probably did something wrong, but not beyond a reasonable doubt. End quote. They gave you plenty of evidence, dude. Plenty of evidence. They literally, unless the Candyman came out of the forest and stole Kaylee, the only really other option was that Casey did this. Like, they gave you plenty of evidence, in my opinion. A decade later, that same juror was feeling differently. He went back to People magazine and told them, quote, I think of the case at least once a day, every single day. My decision haunts me to this day.

I think now that if I were to do it over again, I'd push harder to convict her of one of the lesser charges, like aggravated manslaughter, at least that, or child abuse. I didn't know what the hell I was doing, and I didn't stand up for what I believed in at the time." Another member of the jury, Jennifer Ford, she said that she and many other jurors were sick to their stomachs after voting to acquit Casey, saying, quote, I did not say that she was innocent. I just said there was not enough evidence. If you cannot prove what the crime was, you cannot determine what the punishment should be. End quote. What do you think about that? I think if someone's looking up how to make chloroform, I think if someone finds tape, you know, a detective finds tape from the household that could only be tied back to that home. I think the actions after the incident, again, you just said it, totality of circumstances. It sounds to me like what you just alluded to, which was this person was looking for

the smoking gun, you know, basically Casey on camera transporting Kaylee out to the sunfire, you know, that day. You're not going to get that in every case. No, in most cases that go to trial, I feel like you don't get that because if the prosecution had that or the police had that, they'd make a deal. They wouldn't be bringing it to trial. The only reason it's going to trial is because Casey or other defendants are like, yo, I can like get out of this. Right. And I think it is the burden of the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that, you know, this was the case. You know, we both think they did. And, you know, clearly this person didn't. I don't think the defense presented a strong enough argument with, you know, actual evidence to support their because they would have known very quickly how we think we're pragmatic about this type of stuff. And we would have put two and two together and came to

our conclusion pretty fast. Yeah. Don't put the smart people on the jury. I didn't say it. You said it. I did. I'd say it again. I didn't say it. You did. I got no qualms about saying it as much as possible because that is a stupid decision. But so where is Casey Anthony now? Still in Florida. But a source close to her told InTouch that Casey is writing a detailed and definitive account of her life. The tragedy of losing Kaylee and everything that happened afterwards. Casey started her own photography business in 2016. It was called Case Photography, LLC,

but most of the messages she got were not about booking her for a photo shoot. You can imagine what kind of messages she was getting. So she let that go. In 2017, Casey was living in South Florida with a private detective named Patrick McKenna, who had worked on her case. He also worked on the case of O.J. Simpson. And, you know, it looked like at some point Casey and O.J. were talking about having like a reality show together. So that got really bad public response. I think they put they put the kibosh on that. In June of 2019, Casey announced that she was working on a movie about Kaylee's death called As I Was Told, saying, quote, Yes, I drank and carried on like nothing happened.

The movie is called As I Was Told because I'd done what I was told to do. I had to put on a fake persona throughout those 31 days, end quote. Apparently, once the pandemic hit, Casey had to leave the project behind, which I suppose is the one reason we can thank Ms. Rona for saving us all the torture of having Casey Anthony, you know, make a movie about what she was told. We already know what you claim you were told, but can we get some truth about what you did? So in December of 2020, Casey launched a private investigation firm in Florida called Case Research and Consulting Services. She claims she started this company to help others who are innocent but facing serious charges because she knows what it's like to be accused of something that you did not do. Yo, I wonder if

she has access to that software you have where you can just like look people up and find out where they live and shit. That's scary. That's scary. God, I hope not. I hope not. She'll be looking us up in a week. She won't be looking me up. She don't got my real name. She didn't be looking you up. Hey, there's nothing to see that go right ahead. Doesn't seem like she likes to leave Florida though. So don't worry. But I mean, like she probably does because she's not a convicted felon. She's never been convicted of any crime. I mean, she did lie to police officers. She was convicted of that. Wouldn't that stop her from- Obstruction, misdemeanor. Yeah. You know, probably not. No.

You can get that expunged after a year. Damn. Casey, you better be responsible with that, all right? The feds are watching. Casey has been out partying, socializing, trying to meet someone because she says she's ready to settle down. She's trying to find the right person to do that with since she would like to become a mother again.

To add insult to injury, man, this woman wants to have another child. I can't even. So when he heard this news, George Anthony said, quote, knowing now that she could potentially be a mom again, I hope she does better this time around than what she did last time, end quote. Okay, pot, meat, kettle, George Anthony. Like, You didn't do a very good job either. I'm not defending Casey here, but you didn't do a good job as a parent, clearly. Who are you talking to? Let's not make any more children. None of you should procreate anymore. The Anthony line needs to slowly just die out. In May of 2021, Casey was out at O'Shea's Irish Pub in West Palm Beach when she got in a fight with

another woman over a man they were both interested in. Drinks were thrown. Fists were, you know, being slung and, you know, nothing really happened from it. But this happens a lot to her. Like, she's always getting into fights when she goes out. And it looks like she hasn't changed much, right? She's still immature. She's still fighting over boys in a bar. Like that's always her main priority, the relationship, the man, the guy. Who's going to fulfill her? Who's going to complete her? And you're going to get in a bar fight with another woman over a man?

Like who are you? Grow up. And as for her parents, George and Cindy, they don't really have anything to do with her at this point. Cindy does talk to her sometimes. I heard that they're kind of in touch. And George Anthony was in a car accident a couple years back and Casey called him after to check on him, I guess. And George Anthony, I think it was this year or last, I think it was 2021 or 2020, he did an interview with Dr. Phil where he said he forgives her. He forgives her. George, you guys are crazy, man. She accused you of sexual molestation. She accused you of basically

killing your own granddaughter. And then she accused you of tossing this little girl's body onto the side of the road like trash. That's not something you forgive ever. No, I think that's a deal breaker for most people. Cindy still apparently believes that Casey is innocent. George Anthony told Dr. Phil in 2011, quote, I believe that Casey or someone else that she was with possibly gave too much to Kaylee. She fell asleep and didn't wake up, end quote. So after this, Dr. Phil's like, too much what?

Like drugs? And George Anthony's like, yeah, you know, there's been talk about Xanax or this or that, but like, you know, I don't know what it was, but I think that's what happened. And George said that he felt Casey had sedated Kaylee so that she could go out and have a good time. But as he's saying this, Cindy Anthony gets like very upset. You can see her. She becomes visibly upset and she's like shaking her head. And then she said, quote, none of her friends ever said that Casey did drugs. If this was true, they would have had a story to tell. And none of them have told that story. So I don't buy that for a moment. I'm sorry. I mean, we disagree about this, but it's the first time I've heard those words come out of his mouth. End quote. So like they start bickering back and forth. I'm actually going to link the clip. It's pretty short, like five minutes, but I'm going to link the clip in the description box or I'll have Derek do it because he's the one that does that stuff. It's interesting to watch their dynamics because George is still trying to sort of like put forth theories about what could have possibly happened. He's still like riding the fence, but he's also admitting the possibility, the likelihood that Casey was involved. And Cindy's still over here like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, not my Casey. No, she didn't do anything. So the two of them bickered back and forth for a moment about whether or not George had told this theory to Cindy. He's

like, I talked to you about it. She's like, no, you didn't. We talked about theories, but you never said that. And he's like, yes, I did. And then this shows they're still not on the same page at this point, like that many years later. And as to the theory being put forth that Kaylee had drowned, George Anthony said, quote, if this scenario that Casey had told her defense about Kaylee drowning, why go through all this elaborate stuff to tape her up, put her in a laundry bag, put her in a trash bag, put her in the woods. I can't comprehend a human doing that, especially my daughter doing that to my granddaughter. I can't visualize. I don't want to visualize that, end quote.

George Anthony was also very emotional during the statement. I felt bad. And listen, I don't like him. I don't like Cindy. I don't like Casey. Lee, I don't have an opinion on because he pretty much stayed to himself. But I don't like them because I honestly think that they created this monster and then they wanted to act like she wasn't a monster, and you really unleashed her on the world, and we don't appreciate it. But I am not a monster like Casey. I feel bad when I see people crying.

His face was red. I mean, he was like tears streaming down his face. He's clearly very upset. George Anthony shows more emotion when talking about Kaylee in that one interview than Casey ever did the entire time that we knew her. So that's what that is, I guess. A broken family, people who don't talk to each other, people who hate each other, but

still can't escape each other somehow. It's very toxic, dysfunctional. I agree. I agree. I think, you know, there hasn't been much that we haven't said yet. This is our most extensive series to date. And it was, it was warranted because this is a polarizing case that everyone feels like they know, and they do for the most part. And I think we just added the, the crime weekly touch to it by diving a little deeper.

Final thoughts on this case. I have a half a book of notes, but we've laid out everything. I don't want to just regurgitate what was already said. I think in this recent episode that we just did today, you kind of laid out the prosecution's theory, and we both agree that that's more than likely what transpired. But just to kind of elaborate on that a little bit, because that's basically where I was at going into it. But I also want to go back to a few previous episodes ago where we were talking about the phone call records and I had brought up that maybe there was an indication in this phone record of when it happened and why it happened and the sense of urgency there. And I think originally I had said

maybe this was representative of an accident taking place and Casey calling for help. But I've changed now. I've gone a different direction on it. And I think it still represents something, but different. We talked about the prosecution's theory and what it represents and the fact that Casey had this need for freedom. She wanted to be able to go out and do the things she wanted to do without having to bring Kaylee with her everywhere she went. And that's why she, you know, she was telling her parents, like you had said, you know, that she was with Zanny all day when in actuality she was actually with Casey. So even though Cindy and George thought she basically had all day to herself, she didn't.

She had Kaylee the entire time. So this was wearing on Casey this whole time. And she probably started having these thoughts for since a period of time about what if Kaylee wasn't here, what options, what would my life be like if that wasn't the case? And it starts to fester and it grows. And for me, I just want to go back and I'm looking at it right now, the phone records for that PM on June 16th to 4.25 PM, she calls her mother one, two, three, four, five, six, seven times. And the first, uh, the first year we have seven calls. I'm sorry, six calls. The first six calls, it goes in this order. 410, Gentiva. As I looked

up Gentiva Health Services, that's where Cindy works. So she called her work. The next four calls are to Cindy's cell. The final call at 414, not the final call, but the first segment of calls is at 414 to Gentiva again for a minute and six seconds, which I would think is probably her leaving a voicemail or something like that. I don't think she actually spoke to her. And then there's a series of calls in between there to a couple of text messages as well to Tony, to Jesse, et cetera. And then one more call to Cindy and then her phone has no activity for two hours. There's not activity on that phone again till 6.31. And it's to Cindy sell.

The reason I bring this up, and this is speculation on my part, but maybe there's a moment during that day where Casey's sitting at home and Kaylee's really aggravating her. She's, she's already been thinking about the possibility of doing this. And she had a huge fight with her mother the night before where her mother was already threatening to take Kaylee from her to the point where allegedly, which was confirmed by Lee, Cindy slapped Casey. So you wouldn't think she would be blowing up Cindy's phone the next day. However, she called her, like we just said, seven times in that short period of time. My personal opinion is it might have been a last ditch attempt to say, when are you going to be home? I'm done with it. I don't

want to deal with her anymore. When are you coming home? I need you to tap in. Even though she wasn't really talking to her mom, they had this huge blowout. It was like a last resort. When that didn't happen, when Cindy didn't answer her phone, I think she just went over the edge and this premeditation that was festering in her mind kind of took place. And I don't think they're far off. We found a syringe in the woods. I do think there could have been some type of creation of a chloroform or something similar to that to sedate Kaylee. I do believe that Kaylee was still alive when the tape was applied for the reasons I had mentioned in a few previous episodes as far as what you brought up, which was the fact that it was wrapped around multiple times, not just once, suggestive that she could have

still had taken it off if it was just applied on her lips. And I think there's truth to the fact that she was put into the trunk of the vehicle and maybe I'm praying to God not still alive while in the trunk of the vehicle. I'm just going to say to God, not still alive while in the trunk of the vehicle. I'm just going to say, I hope that's not the case and leave it there. But other than that, I think everything after that, which you laid out perfectly, I should say, Jeff Ashton laid out perfectly. I think the theory all lines up the facts support it, you know, the shovel, the GPS coordinates, et cetera. And then finally her actions afterwards, this whole accidental drowning that happened at the hands of her father never even became a possible scenario

until after she was talked to by Baez, even after she was brought in by police and could have said, Hey, you're, I can clearly tell you're coming after me and you're going to charge me. This is what actually happened. Nope. She was charged, put into a prison, and it wasn't until Baez got a chance to look at the case and see what the facts were, where they developed a different theory about what happened, which was based on the evidence that they had in front of them, which anybody can do. So, you know, to answer the question that I had originally when we started this episode

one, do I think this was an accident? Do I think it was intentional? It's my opinion that it was intentional. And it's my opinion that Casey Anthony acted I don't see how someone else could have done this. And Casey Anthony herself is not accusing anyone else of doing it. She's saying her father did it, which based on the evidence, it doesn't even look like he could have been he was around to do it. That was kind of long winded. So I apologize. But so I am I'm really glad that we did this series because this has been a case that that's, you know, really caught my attention as well as others. But doing it with you and going through it like this, it's made me see things so much more clearly. Like I always felt very strongly that Casey had done this to Kaylee.

But I always went back and forth, like was it on purpose? Was it an accident? And I think a lot of that benefit of the doubt stemmed from just having a hard time believing anybody could do that to a child. Like Kaylee was this sweet two-year-old little girl. She was always smiling, so cute, so beautiful. And then you got to look at it and say, this is Casey's daughter. How could you do that to a child, much less your own child? And I cover

cases on my channel all the time of children who've been murdered by their own parents. And I got to tell you, the usual main factor, the thing that usually is like a thread that ties them all together is these parents have some sort of drug addiction or some sort of problem like that. And I'm not saying it's understandable that a drug addicted parent would kill their child. But I think it does go to state of mind. This person's not thinking the way they normally would. They are focused on one thing. The drug of choice has replaced the love of the child. But here, Casey's not a drug addict, right? She's not. She's not right. She's not mentally ill. She's selfish. She's selfish. She's self-centered. She doesn't care She's selfish. She's self-centered.

She doesn't care about anybody but herself. And if you look at the evidence, because there is some physical evidence, right? It's not all circumstantial. You had the smell and the signature of human decomposition in her trunk. Where did that come from? You know, there's no other place it could have come from. You had the presence of chloroform in her trunk. I forget exactly how much Dr. Arpad Voss said it was over the normal amount that should be present due to, you know, normal, like small residual amounts from the car engine. But it was ridiculous with something like three thousand times or even thirty thousand times the normal amount to be found.

Where does that come from? That's not normal to have coffin flies in the trunk. Where would those coffin flies come from if not from a decomposing body? Kaylee's hair with death banding on it showing that it had come off her body after she was dead and decomposing. Where did that come from? These are all things that to the jury, if any of you are listening, I would say that's pretty much strong physical evidence there. And then you have the phone pings of Casey on the 16th and the 17th. What the hell is she doing? Why is she going back to the Anthony home when she's just escaped there and she's living happily with her boyfriend, Tony Lozaro? Why is she going home to get a shovel and do gardening?

And then you have the fact that Casey Anthony literally did not give a shit when her daughter was missing. She wasn't sad. She wasn't crying. She was having a great time. She didn't give a shit when she got arrested and her parents were trying to get information from her or when her friend was on the phone crying and saying, oh, my God, if something happened to Kaylee and Casey's response was, oh, I'm wasting my time even talking to you people. no other answer. She did this on purpose. I finally have come to that conclusion wholeheartedly with both of my feet. I'm no longer straddling the line. I'm no longer sitting on the fence like, well, how could someone do this? We have to see evil where it lives. And it lives in Casey Anthony. And I think it always will. I don't think that you can, with your own hands, take your child's life and ever be right again? Even if there was nothing wrong with her before, after that, how can you be okay mentally? How can you

even move forward unless you are incredibly evil? And she's evil. So I hope she doesn't have any more children. And I hope she stops trying to profit off of the death of her child by making movies and writing freaking books. And I hope also that she to profit off of the death of her child by making movies and writing freaking books. And I hope also that she has zero clients at her private investigative firm. And I hope she just ends up working at like a Hooters so she can meet some old man who won't give her children, God forbid. And, you know, like Anna Nicole Smith, who who ended up, you know, living a good life. And maybe Casey Anthony will end up like Anna Nicole Smith did, because I think that's the best the world can hope for at this point, that she stays away, that she doesn't have any more children. And for God's sake, woman, stop trying to profit off of

this. I believe that you murdered your child. I think a lot of people believe that you murdered your child. I think even your own lawyer believed that you murdered your child or he wouldn't have told you to switch your story up during trial. You know, lawyers who believe their clients are innocent don't tell them to not tell their truth and tell a different truth. So you got away with it. OK, great. And now you need to count your blessings and disappear from the face of the earth. You know, you need to just go away. We need to stop hearing from you. And that's it. That's that's it. That's all I have to say to you. and if you like but if you ever do want to talk derrick and i are open if you're gonna tell us the truth we're here for you yeah maybe i don't even know if i want to but we'll say yeah

she wanted to talk highly loud yeah we give her the shot i guess if we hire her as a private investigator do you think like she'd be she'd have to talk to us because we're her boss kind of yeah we'll see how that works out no tell, tell everyone out there, you know, kiss your kids a little harder tonight. You know, when you listen to this, you know, that's the real thing you take away from it. As a detective, that's always what I took away from it. You know, hearing these stories makes you think about the people that you love and the people that you can protect. So we hope you're all doing that. We appreciate you guys sticking with us for eight parts, eight parts in over 16 hours of what you guys actually heard.

That's literally the actual final footage and, you know, heard and saw over 16 hours. So I think it's safe to say we've covered Casey Anthony as extensively as it can be covered. I don't know if anybody else has done it this in depth this many hours, but I'd be willing to put this up against anyone. We did our best. We hope you guys got a lot out of it. Any final words before I take us out? Yep.

It is 145 in the morning on February 1st, and I am heading to the airport in about three hours. So I have to go pack. We appreciate you. Appreciate the hard work. Guys, we appreciate you joining us here. Thank you so much. You can follow us on social media if you want.

CrimeWeeklyPod, Instagram and Twitter. CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com slash shop if you want to go check out the merch store. We will be back next week with a new case. We'll see you next time. Bye. Thank you.