Crime Weekly - S2 Ep63: Michelle Martinko: Mystery at the Mall (Part 1)

Episode Date: February 11, 2022

Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop It was around 7pm on the evening of December 19th, 1979, as Kennedy High School senior Michelle Martinko made her way from her parked car to the newly opened Westdale Mall located on the west side of Cedar Rapids, Iowa. It was a bitterly cold night, and Michelle was not dressed for the weather, so she shivered and clutched her rabbit fur coat around her body until she reached the warmth and safety of the mall entrance. Michelle was only eighteen, but she was a beautiful girl. Her friends said she was the kind of girl that turned heads, even though she seemed blissfully unaware of the effect she had on people. During her time in the mall that evening, Michelle chatted with many of her friends, all of whom would later say she was her normal, happy, sparkling self. But within nine hours, Michelle would be found dead in that same mall parking lot, stabbed and slashed over twenty times, and left to bleed out in her car. Detectives were sure that the crime had been personal, it was just too angry and violent to have been a random attack, but the decades long investigation would reveal that things are not always as they seem.  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

It was just after 7 p.m. on the evening of December 19, 1979, as Kennedy High School senior Michelle Martinko made her way from her parked car to the newly opened Westdale Mall, which was located on the west side of Cedar Rapids, Iowa. It was a bitterly cold night, and Michelle was not dressed for the weather, so she shivered and clutched her rabbit fur coat around her body until she reached the warmth and safety of the mall entrance. Michelle was only 18, but she was a beautiful girl. Her friends said she was the kind of girl that turned heads, even though she seemed blissfully unaware of the effect she had on people. During her time in the mall that evening, Michelle would chat with many friends, all of whom would later say that Michelle had been her normal, happy, sparkling self.

But within nine hours, Michelle would be found dead in that same mall parking lot, stabbed and slashed over 20 times, and left to bleed out in her car. Detectives were sure that the crime had been personal. It was just too angry and violent to have been a random attack. But the decades-long investigation would reveal that things are not always as they seem. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're starting a new case. In fact, Derek just said,

wow, it's been a long time since we've recorded a teaser. And I said, yeah, eight episodes, right? Yeah. No, it has been a while. I was getting ready to go. And then you're like, oh, I got to do the teaser first. And I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. We do. But it's been over two months. Yeah. No, really? Yeah. I mean, think about it. Eight episodes over 16 hours. I'm glad we're doing something different. Change it up.

It's got to keep me on my toes. I'm writing a lot again. So I'm looking forward to hearing this new case. Yeah. We were with Kaylee Anthony for eight episodes. She deserved it. But now we're talking about a different case. So the case of Michelle Martinko has actually been very highly requested, not just here on Crime Weekly, but on my YouTube channel as well.

So I really decided to eventually cover it on Crime Weekly because it's a case that has a lot of investigative aspects to it, you know, between police procedure and DNA evidence. So I really felt it was the perfect case to discuss with Derek. And that's what we're doing because honestly, I would want to have his input while I'm going over this case anyway. So it was a much better idea to cover it on Crime Weekly than on YouTube. But I mean, Crime Weekly is on YouTube, so we're going to do them both. It is. I always get, you know, it's funny because we always, when we're talking about it, a lot of the times I go into modes where I'm like talking to the audio listeners and I'm like, oh no, we're on YouTube as well. And then vice versa, I do the opposite where I've, you know, you got to keep switching

up, but we are available on both platforms. So if you're listening, we're on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, we're on audio. If you want to listen to us in the car as well. Yes. And this case is also, it's really interesting because it's recently, kind of recently been adjudicated and solved. But there's also a possible connection to another unsolved crime, the disappearance of Jody Hostentrut, who vanished from Mason City, Iowa, in June of 1995.

And that's another highly requested case. So we are going to talk about all of that. Do you have anything you want to say before we dive in? No, let's get into it. So Michelle Martinko was born on October 6th, 1971 to her parents, Albert and Janet Martinko. She had an older sister named Janelle, and together the family lived at 4312 Woodfield Lane in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And for anybody who's not familiar with Cedar Rapids, it's a very small town. I mean, it's not super small anymore. It wasn't even very small back in the 70s, but it definitely has a small town feel then and now. Michelle was finishing up her senior year at Kennedy High

School, and she had plans to attend Iowa State University and study interior design. Michelle liked beautiful things. She liked everything to be very, you know, aesthetically pleasing to the eye, but it also seemed that she didn't realize how beautiful she was to others. She had gone through an awkward phase like most of us do, but Michelle's awkward phase, it was exacerbated by a scoliosis diagnosis that was made when she was 12. She had been forced to wear a brace that went from her neck to her hips. And she became obviously very self-conscious about this brace, the way it made her look, the way it made her move. You know, it's under her clothes,

but still you can tell somebody has one on. And she kind of thought everybody was looking at her. And she thought everyone could tell that there was something different about her and it gave her some anxiety. But when she was 14, the brace came off and she began to develop into a stunning young woman who styled her hair in the same way as the popular fashion icon of the times, Farrah Fawcett. So like when we were younger, everyone wanted the Rachel, you know, because of Friends and it was so popular at the time. And Jennifer Aniston, you know, she became the symbol of like beauty and elegance. So everyone was cutting their hair into the Rachel, which I couldn't because I had curly hair. So I was left out of that. I'm glad about it now. But in the 1970s, it was Farrah Fawcett all day. You know, she was on Charlie's Angels. Everybody loved her. And I'm sure some of our listeners even

probably styled their hair in the same way if they were alive in the 70s. And like Farrah, Michelle's hair was voluminous and long. It cascaded down her shoulders like a golden waterfall with feathered bangs. And she never had a hair out of place. Whenever she went out, it didn't matter where she was going. Michelle was dressed impeccably. And she did turn heads. But because she didn't seem to realize how

attractive she was, Michelle had stayed humble, and she was known to be incredibly sweet and kind, even to the students who were not in her circle of friends. She and her family were members of St. Pius X Catholic Church. She was active in Campus Life. That's a non-profit organization which provides a positive place for students to go and have fun with friends and talk about relevant issues that might come up with their journey through adolescence. And they can do this without fear or judgment. Michelle was an above average student. And most of all, she loved music. She had a beautiful singing voice and she was an active member of her school's concert choir, which is who she was with on the evening of December 19,

1979. Michelle had attended the Kennedy High School Concert Choir Banquet, which was an annual end-of-the-year celebration. This year, it had happened at the Sheridan Inn, and it was scheduled to end at 7 p.m., but Michelle left a bit early, telling her friend Jane Hansen that she needed to go pick up a new winter coat at the newly opened Westdale Mall. Now, Cedar Rapids already had a mall. Michelle actually worked at that mall, but it was on the east side of town. So when Westdale Mall opened in October of 1979, just two months before this case takes place, that new mall was the place to be for Westsiders. They were very proud that they now

had their very own modern shopping center and they no longer had to travel to the other side of the town to visit a mall. When Michelle left the banquet, she was wearing a black v-neck dress with a matching scarf tied around her neck. She had on dark stockings, black high-heeled, open-toed shoes, and her trademark rabbit fur coat. It should have been a simple trip to the mall. She should have been home by 10 p.m. by the latest. But when Michelle did not return home and the hours began to tick by, her parents started making calls to her friends. One of the calls was received by Jane Hansen, but Jane did not immediately think that her friend had encountered foul play. Michelle had asked Jane to join her at the mall that night, but Jane had homework to do,

so she had declined. And when Michelle's mom called her, she remembered thinking that Michelle was going to be in trouble because she had probably met up with a guy at the mall and missed curfew, but she never could have guessed the truth of what had actually happened. Michelle's parents called the police and reported her missing at around 2 a.m. And by 4 a.m., Michelle's car and Michelle's body had been located in the northwest parking lot of the Westdale Mall, right behind the JCPenney store. You know, this is interesting, and I'm glad that it went down this way because we've talked about it in the past where you have someone who's an adult and goes missing and there's this window of opportunity where nothing happens. Like it's, you know, 48 hours or whatever.

And technically, you know, she was an adult. However, based on the circumstances, although it may not have been filed as an official missing persons report, and I don't know if it was or not, it seems like they were already out looking for law enforcement, which I have said before, may not be able to enter something into NCIC at that point, but we'll be out there looking for this person. And it looks like that was the case, which is why they found her so quickly. You said they reported her missing around 2 a.m.? 2 a.m., yeah. But I mean, if you think about it, the police were like, well, where do you think your daughter is? And her parents were like, well, we know the last place she went is the mall. So that's probably the first place they went to look. Right. They went and looked. Yeah. Went and looked and they said they found her by like 4 a.m. So it's only like a two hour difference between when she was reported to when

they found her. So like you said, they probably almost immediately went over to the mall because that would make the most sense, right? Let's start where we last know she was going. And also, what's interesting about this case is you have the situation where the parents could have waited, right? They could have waited and said, you know what? Maybe she's at a friend's house. Maybe she's going to be home tomorrow. For anybody out there who ever questions that, always err on the side of caution, call police. It didn't make a difference here, unfortunately, and it wouldn't have, even if they reported her almost immediately. Yeah. But it can be the difference maker in many cases. You've talked about it before, Stephanie, where

if you decide to wait because you feel like they may be at a friend's house or a boyfriend's house or a girlfriend's house, go with your gut. And if it sounds like it's out of character for the person that you know, report it and let the police decide if there's something they can do at that very moment. In this case, they immediately went know, I wouldn't look at my 18 year old high school senior as an adult. And and her parents said that this is not like her. She comes home when she says she's going to come home. You know, obviously no one's perfect, but you get an idea of what your what your kid does and what's normal for them. And apparently Michelle was not the type to to say, hey, I'm going to go to the mall and then come home and then not come home. So it was very clear to them. And Michelle's mother said immediately, as soon as Michelle didn't come home by like 1030, 11, Michelle's mother, Janet said, I knew something was wrong.

Yeah. I have to assume the mall was probably closed 1979, probably nine o'clock, eight o'clock. Well, it's the Christmas season. So I think they closed a little bit later that month. It was a brand new mall. Like I said, they just built it that previous October. So it's open to two months. It's the Christmas season. I believe they were closing around 10. And that's something funny for you to bring up, actually, because there's a lot of different, you know how it goes when you're researching these cases. Like some sources are like the mall closed at 10 and then some are like the mall closed at 10 and then some are like the mall closed at 11 and it's 1979. So it's not like I can call the mall and say, hey, what time

did you close that night? But I would assume probably around 10, 10 p.m. And by 4 a.m., the parking lot's empty. So it's not going to be hard to locate the one lone car that's left over. Oh, yeah. Once they go there, it's over. They're going to find her within minutes. And it's, you know, you did say it's only six days before Christmas. So that parking lot during, I'm going to, I really want to see where this goes because I know how she was found. I know the manner in which she was killed, but it's also December 19th. So I, I would assume that parking lot was packed. Like you said, right before Christmas. Packed because it's a new mall.

And there's a lot of traffic, a lot of people, a lot of witnesses, and yet nobody called in any type of assault or anything like that. So I don't know this case and that's why we're doing it this way. I don't know what the specifics of this case are because I'm assuming they're going to explain based on where her car was located, why it may not have been seen or heard by anybody else. So I did some research on the Westdale Mall and I found these pages. There's lots of these because malls are becoming a thing of the past, right? So there's a lot of these pages that talk about malls once they close down and sort of like memories of them and they put like old pictures up. And they said, you know, for basically the first six to eight months, you couldn't find a parking spot at this mall because it was so, so busy. And because of that, Michelle getting

there a little later in the evening, she actually had to park quite far away from the mall entrance. But I did wonder that as well, because this is an attack that happened in a very public place, in a very busy place, even though it's later in the evening, there's still going to be people around. There's going to be people coming and going. And it's a little shocking and brazen. It really is. That's why I always say, if you can, park as close to the door of any business you go into. Definitely a well-lit area. Try to park near other cars, all that good stuff. But let's take a quick break and we'll dive right back into it. So Cedar Rapids police officer James Kincaid was the first on the scene and he located Michelle's 1977 green and tan Buick Electra parked in the empty lot. He approached the vehicle to check for unlocked doors, and finding the back driver's

side door unlocked, he opened it to discover a very bloody scene. Kincaid said, quote, there was someone partially laying slumped down in the front passenger side seat. There was no movement. Absolutely no movement. Her eyes were open. End quote. Now remember, this is Cedar Rapids, Iowa, so they've obviously got a police force, but crimes like this, murders like this were unheard of, virtually unheard of in this place. And every police officer that worked that scene, they said even decades later, it was the worst one they had ever seen? Stabbings are tough. I've had to come into a scene multiple times where it was a stabbing. Sometimes they're dead. Sometimes they're badly injured. And I'll spare you guys the details, but I've had some scenes that will stay with me. I've had some scenes that didn't result in murder that were more graphic than murders that I responded to just because of the manner in which they're stabbed. I had one

out, I'll tell you, where we had a guy with a screwdriver and the screwdriver was actually driven right through the guy's face and through his nose. That was a bloody scene. And he lived, by the way. He lived. He lived. He lived. They transported him to the hospital with the screwdriver. The screwdriver, I walk in, he's laying down. The screwdriver is all the way in his head, all the way down to the handle. Did he have brain damage? I honestly think he was pretty much fine. I mean, I'm sure he had a little bit, but he's out there working the whole nine yards. He made almost a complete recovery. It just went into the nasal cavity and it avoided the brain and any other things that could have left him like

permanently blind or something. He was for the most part, fine. Incredible. That's like a miracle. Yeah. Like incredibly lucky. But that scene, I mean, there was still a lot of blood and I remember responding to that and I said to myself, there's no way this guy's going to make it. And yeah, he made it. Damn. Well, this was, like you said, this is a stabbing, but Michelle's attacker didn't just stab her. He slashed her too. So besides Michelle's body, there was a copious amount of blood in the car. Police found some brown shopping bags in the back seat and Michelle's purse was underneath her body. Inside the purse, they found $186 in cash. Now, this was the money that her mother had given her to buy the coat. So it turns out that Michelle's mother had put this coat on layaway for her daughter, and she was going to give it to her for Christmas. But she told Michelle, go look at it, try it on. You're very particular about your clothes. If you don't like it, you don't have to get it. But if you do like it, here's the rest of the money for the

coat and that's your Christmas gift. But Michelle had called home from the mall at 8.45 p.m. to tell her mother that she couldn't locate the store where the coat was. This was Michelle's first time at this mall. It's brand new and the two-story building had over 100 stores in it. So Michelle's mother gave her directions on where to find the store, and when she hung up, she said that Michelle had sounded excited. Now, apparently, Michelle did find the store. She saw the coat, but when she saw it in person and tried it on, she decided against buying it, so she still had the cash on her person when she left the mall that night. Of the 29 wounds, 11 were stab wounds, mostly to

Michelle's chest. There were also some slicing wounds on her chin and neck. Two of the stab wounds had penetrated her lungs, her aorta had been sliced, and she'd lost one-third of her total blood volume. There was also pretty deep slice marks between Michelle's fingers that the medical examiner would describe as textbook defensive wounds. And this showed that Michelle had fought for her life very fiercely and for as long as she could. So first thing I was thinking when you were talking about some of the slashes, the stabs appear to be deliberate. The person was trying to kill her. The slash wounds even to her face, those could have been during the struggle. The suspect has a knife.

And as he's trying to attack her, she's defending herself. And she's putting up a really good fight. And in the process, the knife is kind of swinging around. She may have even grabbed the knife where she's trying to keep it away from herself. And that may have cut her a couple times. She's got to be trying to grab it, right? Because they're between the slash marks are between her fingers. That's what that tells me that she's trying to grab it.

Right. So that's a natural reaction. We see that all the time in stabbings where, you know, what's the thing you're going to do? If you're in close proximity to someone with a knife and you don't feel like you can retreat when they're attacking you, when they take the knife and they try to stab you with it, the first reaction you're going to have is to put your hand up. And I don't recommend trying this, but it's not like the movies where you can specifically grab the knife a certain way, because they're coming down or coming to the side at a certain angle that you might not be ready for. So it might catch you between the fingers or in the palm. And that's why

you see these kind of random patterns sometimes with these defensive wounds, because it's not like you would expect where the person puts their hand up and grabs the blade and they have these two cuts. It's not like that. It doesn't normally happen that way. So it probably caught her a couple of times between the fingers before he was able to accomplish what he was trying to do. Yes. Well, also, if you're looking at this and you're thinking the money was still there, so robbery is not a motive. It must have been a sexual assault. And the police said that Michelle's dress had been pulled up, but she was fully dressed otherwise. She still had her shoes on, her stockings were still on, and there was no sign of sexual assault. That said, and if I'm jumping the gun,

just stop me. But I would think at this point, just as far as you've brought me so far, what I'm thinking, definitely not motivated by money, not a robbery, right? If they were there, they saw her purse when she got into the car, you're leaving there at minimum with the money. And the bags, the shopping bags are still in the back and things. Yeah. There's nothing's taken or it doesn't appear that anything's taken. The fact that there are defensive wounds and she's still clothed, I would think at this point, it may be even more of an inclination that this was an attempted sexual assault that went bad, where he was trying to derobe her or tell her to do something and she refused.

And that's when it escalated. That's when he used the knife. So at this point, and again, I'm sure you're going to get into all the details of it, but you know, I, I don't think anybody at this point, as we're looking at this should rule out that this was initially a sexual assault. That may have been the full intention to be a murder by the end of it, but initially it was a sexual assault and she put up such a fight that the end of it, but initially it was a sexual assault. And she put up such a fight that the offender wasn't able to accomplish that. And I know she's not with us anymore, but I'll say if it was my daughter, I'm glad the fact that she fought. I don't even know how to word it because I've never been there. I would hope that if it happened, God forbid that, you know, yeah.

God forbid if that happened to someone I love that if they went out, they went out fighting to the point where the person wasn't able to get what they wanted. Yes. And it's pretty clear that she did. And I mean, I so I agree with you. Like, you don't just go in and do something like this with no motive. And for, you know, as pretty and beautiful and like sure of herself as Michelle's friends described her. She may have been being followed by somebody. She may have been like spotted by somebody. And you would think that that would be the motive. But we will get to it. No weapon had been recovered. And the medical examiner, he said that he couldn't even tell for sure if it was a knife that had been used in the attack. He said the best way he could describe the murder weapon was to call it a sharp pointed object. That was a little strange to me because I feel like can't they usually tell what was used? You know, like a sharp pointed weapon could be like you said, a screwdriver, but you should definitely be able to see during an autopsy whether it was like a knife or a screwdriver used based on the wounds left behind. Sometimes. I'm not a pathologist. I will say that in some of the cases I had that involved a knife, you can sometimes see

what's called the hilt mark, which is basically the base of where the blade meets the handle. And sometimes you'll have a bruise or some type of marking on the skin to show that the knife went into the body all the way down to the hilt. So if they don't have that, I would assume through the autopsy report based on damages, they would be able to tell if it was a flat blade or a serrated knife, things like that. But as far as the specifics, I think it would be somewhat difficult unless they had potential murder weapons in question that they could compare it to. Probably. You're probably right. I just, you know, I think that there's some sharp pointed objects that are maybe a little bit more blunt and couldn't be confused with the knife, but

who knows? I mean, this guy could have used a piece of broken glass or something. You know, we don't know. Exactly. And this is more of a cover your, or a CYA, as we say, a C, you know, cover your ass, because although they may assume it's a knife, you don't want to say, oh, it's absolutely a knife because then if they do find someone and it turns out like you just said that it wasn't a knife, the defense will use that against you in the court. You know, they'll say, oh, well you said it was a knife. Now you're saying it's, again, it's, it's semantics, but they'll, they'll use that. So I think in this case, they're saying, Hey, listen, we can tell you 100%. It's a sharp

object, but we're not ready to say exactly what, which helps them in case they find a potential murder weapon. That's a really good point. That's a really good point. No foreign fingerprints were found anywhere in or on the vehicle. And when I say foreign fingerprints, I mean fingerprints that didn't belong to like Michelle or her family members. This wasn't technically her car. It was the family vehicle that they kind of all drove when they needed to. So no fingerprints were found outside of the people who would normally be found in the car. But police did find rubber glove impressions on the outside of the car, on one of the door handles, as well as in blood inside the car. So Richard White, he was a forensic technician. He'd photographed the scene that night. He thought that when he saw these

marks, it was in kind of a chevron pattern. And that pattern looked familiar to him. So later, he went out and he purchased a pair of household dishwashing gloves, you know, like the yellow ones, they go up to like your elbows, pretty heavy duty. And he found that as household dishwashing gloves, they did match the pattern of the rubber glove impressions found at the crime scene. Luckily, Richard White also took a scraping of blood from the gear shift of Michelle's car. I mean, they took many samples. They took many blood samples. They stored everything away in evidence. But for some reason, he sort of fixated on this blood that was on the gear shift. And he used a razor blade to scrape the blood off. He then lifted the scrapings with fingerprinting tape and he sealed that tape into an evidence bag. especially at the time, because in 1978, DNA wasn't really being used in police investigations, you know, and it wouldn't be used really until like the mid 80s. And if you think about it,

like I always think about this whenever we cover older cases, it had to have been incredibly tough to try and solve crimes back then. Like there was no cell phones. Hardly anyone had CCTV at their homes or businesses. So if the perpetrator didn't leave like blatant fingerprints behind, you would really have to rely on eyewitnesses to get leads for these cases. And as we know, you know, eyewitness testimony is some of the most unreliable evidence in an investigation. And we're going to see that in this case as well. But I just wouldn't have wanted to even be a police officer at that time because it would feel like a constant exercise in futility. I don't want to undersell how important it is what you just said there. As far as detectives having the forethought to understand

that what they're collecting today, there may not be a technology available to help them now, but it could be helpful down the road. And I'll tell you a lot of cases that are cold that aren't being solved yet. And people are wondering why some of them are probably because of how the DNA evidence was preserved at the time of its, you know, recovery. If it wasn't preserved correctly, you know, sometimes they were using paper bags over plat over things like that. The DNA they have now in storage, although it's still there, may not be usable. Seen it a hundred times.

So this is a reality. This is something we're facing now. But kudos to these detectives to take it upon themselves to make sure they were collecting the evidence properly so that one day when the technology was good enough, it could be used to potentially solve the case. Yeah, 1979, like DNA wasn't being used in law enforcement, but DNA was this, you know, newly like burgeoning technology that everyone was talking about. And they were talking about the implications for law enforcement in the future. So obviously there's going to be some law enforcement officials who are paying attention to this, most likely as well,

the forensics guys who are going to be interested in this because this is their jam. And they're going to think, you know, I can't do anything with this right now, but who knows what I can do in the future. So I'm going to make sure to really take care with this evidence. And I think you're right. There's some cold cases, a lot of them being solved now from like the 70s, the 80s. A lot of them being solved now are because you had foresight in the detectives on that case or in the crime scene tax on that case, whereas some of them are never going to be solved because they weren't trained on how to store this DNA. They didn't really know what they were doing, and maybe they didn't even think that it was

going to be relevant. So they didn't stop to take the blood or store it correctly. So it's absolutely good that a lot of these people had foresight. We dealt with that, I think, in Crystal Beslanovic, too. Was that her? Yep. Crystal Beslanovic. I've personally dealt with it in some cases. We're going to discuss Michelle Norris down the road.

And that's a case that happened in the 80s where it wasn't the best collection. And this is my own police department, but you have old school guys who, you know, might be, you know, a little bit further along in their career. And there's this new technology and this new thing, DNA. And it's like, ah, I'm not learning this. You know, you know, I'm not going that far, you know, and there it's a reality. I'm not saying we should agree with it or we should accept it, but it doesn't only apply to law enforcement. It applies a lot of jobs where you have these people who are stuck in their ways and a computer? What's that? Nah, I type my reports. I can imagine. Yeah. There's an old school detective and he's like, you're going to find out whose blood this is? Okay, science fiction. you know right imagine how it'll be even 30 the way technology is growing now even 20 years from now it's the way we're going to be able to identify people it's already happening yeah

that's kind of scary to me though so yeah even with a you know you used to not be able to identify anyone from without you in hair without like skin being attached to it they're already proving that there's there's opportunities in that as well it's just i can't wait to see what happens it's going to be very difficult to commit a crime in the future and not have left behind some form of trace evidence that's going to eventually get you convicted of a crime. So that's good for us. That's good for the good guys. Or you just get set up for a crime because technology is so good that they can do that

too. That's why it scares me. We need to stop at a certain point and be like, okay, we're okay now. Cause if we go any further, like it's getting a little out of control and scary, but,

um, just the fact that they can take, just, just bring a shop back with you. No, that won't even work. Like bring a vacuum when you're in someone's car and just vacuum the seat before you leave.

That's what I'm saying, man. Cause you just be in someone's car the next day. They're dead. You were in their car yesterday and all of a sudden you're in handcuffs behind bars. And the fact that they can take a DNA type and make a picture of what that person would look like, you know, Parabon Labs. Shout out Parabon Labs. I love Parabon Labs.

I love CC Moore. I love the whole snapshot program. We're going to talk about that in this case. And I'm so excited because it's something that I find very interesting. But before we continue, let's take a quick break. Yeah. And before the break, you mentioned Snapshot. Another case, Faith Hedgepath, which we covered.

I was using that as well. So you're right. Parabon's amazing. It's still very expensive, that technology. That's something that we got to work on getting the prices lower by making it more readily available. That's why there's a lot of foundations out there and stuff. But Parabon is very, it's very expensive. I've seen the price sheets. It's not cheap, even for a TV show when we were looking into it. So that's

the one thing we got to work on. That's the one barrier to entry for law enforcement because it's coming out of their budget. I hope we get to a point where this cool technology that Parabon offers becomes the norm, right? Where it's accessible to everybody on any case. Yeah, I agree. It is expensive, but there's a reason for that. And I think we were talking about it in a different case where they need more people trained to do that stuff because it does come down to a scarcity of manpower. There's a lot of training and education that goes into it. So that's really something that's important. But Parabon Labs does an amazing job. Ortham's another one. A lot of cases you're seeing solved now is Ortham. They're solving a lot of cases as well. It just makes me think of Iron Man's lab. When I think of Parabon Labs, that's probably what it looks like inside. It's a good name. It's really good.

It's a good, it's a cool name. So the Cedar Rapids police, they'd never seen anything like this murder. The amount of times that Michelle had been stabbed and sliced, the amount of blood lost. This attack seemed to have been fueled by a great deal of anger. And to the detectives, it looked personal. Michelle had not been robbed. A good deal of money was sitting untouched in her purse. She hadn't been sexually assaulted either. And if the motive wasn't robbery or rape, this had to have been someone that she knew who had a score to settle with her. Now, with this theory, the obvious first step would be to interview people that Michelle had known, including ex-boyfriends and friends who had seen her that night before she was brutally murdered. Michelle's family and friends, they didn't have a ton of leads to offer

because Michelle didn't really have any enemies as far as they knew. In fact, she was incredibly welcoming to people. She'd even go out of her way to talk to the less popular kids in school who didn't have a lot of friends. There was a Facebook page set up for Michelle at some point, you know, in the long amount of years that her crime was unsolved. And a lot of people from her school came on and a lot of these people said, you know, we weren't friends. We didn't talk to each other every day. But when you did talk to me, you made me feel so special. You made me feel seen. So it really seemed like everybody loved her. But there was one person that Michelle's family was a bit concerned about, her ex-boyfriend, Andy Seidel. And she'd actually seen Andy the night that she died. Michelle had met Andy at a roller skating rink when she was 15. It's such a 70s thing, you know, the roller skating rink when you're 15. I just have great,

great memories of that. Want a little quick story? Oh, yeah. Of course. A roller skating story? Yeah. Yes. So one of my first jobs was at United Skates of America. I was the floor guard there. We wore referee shirts. And I was also proud of this, by the way. Many times, the dinosaur, Skatosaurus or Rolleroo. Like the birthday dinosaur? Yeah. Or the giraffe, which later came, Rolleroo. And I was quite the skater back in the day.

I love that job. So wait, you're a good skater then. I haven't skated in years. But yeah, it's one of those things where when I go with my kids to the... United Skates is still open. It's in East Providence. If you live in Rhode Island, check it out. Awesome place.

That's a great name. United Skates. Are you kidding me? United Skates of America. That's amazing. And it was one of my first jobs and I loved working there. One of my favorite jobs of all time. Hands down.

It was like, you know, a bunch of kids from school. Everyone, you know, you get the dance, the music, the music. You're like holding hands with your boyfriend on the skating rink floor. Laser skate. Laser skate when they shut the lights down. When they put the lights down and they did all that. Yes. Yes.

And that was the club. That was the club environment, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Worked there for years. Loved it. One of my favorite jobs. So can you ice skate too?

Yeah, I can ice skate too. Not as good as roller skate, but I can definitely ice skate. It's very similar in a lot of ways. It's funny because usually tall people aren't good at skating because they're center of gravity. Well, I mean, your definition of good, I might suck based on your definition. You may see me skate down the road and go, Derek, you said you work there? I'm not. Okay. All right. Sure. That's why they put you in the dinosaur outfit so you wouldn't hurt yourself. But I was on skates. Yeah, I know. In that dinosaur costume.

I know. That's what I'm saying. I was, you know, not to toot the old horn, but toot, you know? I need to see pictures if that's the case. I don't have pictures, but I wish I did. We're going to have to recreate it then. Sorry. I apologize.

Yeah, one day I'll bring a suit out and I'll go skating again. Yeah, yeah. We hit 200,000 subscribers. I'll rent a dino costume and skate around and roller skates with a sign that says we hit 200 K on YouTube. You guys heard it. Okay. Okay.

I'm not doing that. So it's actually a cute story. Michelle had seen Andy like struggling to skate, you know, he's falling down and holding on to the edge. And so she'd approached him and she kind of teased him and she was like, do you need help? And so they skated around, they laughed

and they bonded over their love of pizza, which is such a 15 year old thing to do, because that sounds so dumb. Like you bonded, like you started dating because you both like pizza, like everyone likes pizza, but when you're 15, that's a big deal. So Andy and Michelle, they dated for two years. But after the two years, they broke up. It was kind of initiated. The breakup was initiated by Michelle and Andy had not taken it well. It was reported that he'd had a hard time letting go of her. And Andy had sort of become obsessed with Michelle. He'd call her a lot. He wanted to stay friends. He would talk to her friends about her constantly, wondering where she was, what she was up to, who she was dating, why was she dating this guy, what did she like about this guy. he was attending nearby Coe College. But he and Michelle had remained friends, and there was probably a part of him that hoped they would get back together. So,

on the evening of December 19th, Andy was also at the Westdale Mall with a friend picking out a Christmas present for Michelle. Andy told the police that he and Michelle had spoken briefly, but he asked her not to follow him around the mall because he didn't want her to find out what he was getting her for Christmas. He claims that Michelle had asked him if she could call him later. He said yes, and when they parted ways, she was her normal, happy self. Andy would, however, later tell detectives that Michelle had mentioned being worried that someone was watching her. Like I said, she worked at a clothing store at the other mall, which was located on the east side of town,

and she claimed that in the week leading up to her death, she'd seen a hideous man watching her while she was working, and this concerned her. In fact, she was a bit anxious about being at the Westdale Mall that night by herself because of this, and it's probably why she had asked her friend from choir to come with her. Question. Did you say Andy was with someone else or was he by himself as well?

He was with a friend. Okay. So there is an impartial witness that was with him, probably could account for his time while at the mall. And I'm assuming they probably came together. So they left together. They definitely came together. They definitely left together, but that did not stop the police or the community from harassing

this kid for years. Okay. And they shouldn't have done that, but I will say just because he's with someone doesn't rule them out completely because that person could be involved as well. No, definitely. It 100% lowers the chance that he was involved because then you would have to figure out what the motive would be for this other person as well. So I was wondering if somebody else was with him and it seems like this was not good for him going forward. I do want to go back to what you just said as far as her feeling like someone's following her. I love the fact that she was telling someone else about this. And my first thought when you started giving out the details of this case is there's a few options right this individual the offender saw her get out of her vehicle when she arrived at the mall

and sat in his car or her car and waited for her to come back out they saw her in the mall shopping while they were in there and followed her through the mall until she left and then obviously followed her back to her car to make sure nobody else was around, and then attacked her. And then finally, it's so interesting that you said this, but I'm like, well, those are two possibilities. But what if this person had been following her for weeks? And this was the first time because she was a social person where there was an opportunity to take advantage of the situation. If she saw someone watching her at work, this individual could have followed her home. This individual could have been watching her while she was out with her friends. And then on this particular occasion, unfortunately, she was by herself.

So there's a few scenarios that I'm running through my head right now, and I'm sure we'll start to hone in on something as we go, but all are plausible at this point. I agree. And I don't want to get too far go, but all are plausible at this point. I agree. And I don't want to get too far ahead, but- Yeah, don't give it away. Very, very interesting questions. So Michelle, when she's at the mall, she also ran into a few boys that she knew from her high school choir who had also gone to the mall after.

Their names were Tracy Price and Todd Bergen. They were planning to go to see a movie, The Jerk, actually, but they had stopped at the mall first to do some Christmas shopping, and when they saw Michelle, they stopped to chat with her for a bit. So Michelle told Tracy and Todd that she was at the mall to buy a coat, and she showed them the wad of cash that she had in her purse. And Todd Bergen remembered telling her, like, put that money away. You know, you shouldn't be waving money around like that. And she did put it away. But other than this small detail, nothing about Michelle or this situation seemed unusual. She was in a good mood. She was bubbly and smiling, as she always was. And when they left her, she was still alive

and well. Michelle saw one more person before she left the Westdale Mall that night. His name was Curtis Thomas. So Curtis actually worked at a menswear store in the mall. It was called Chess King, and he said it had been a slow night, so his manager had already let several employees go home. Curtis was standing outside the store about six inches into the mall. So, you know, there's like the little border where the store ends. And I remember I worked at a Verizon store in the mall for a while. And when it's slow, you kind of got to like heckle people a little bit. So you stand out into the mall and you're like, hey, you need a new cell phone? Hey, what was that? Is that an iPhone 5? You got to upgrade, you know, because

you're just bored and you want customers. So he's standing outside trying to lure customers into Chess King, and he saw Michelle approaching with a huge smile on her face. Curtis said that Michelle had seen him before he had seen her, but he was very happy that she was there because she'd always been nice to him in school. Apparently, Curtis had gotten into some trouble in school for showing up late to class, and he'd been given the option to either, you know, do detention or help out with the school play, Pippin. Curtis had chosen to help with the play, and it was there that he met Michelle. Curtis said that Michelle could tell he wasn't really comfortable. He didn't know anybody there. It's like a completely different crowd, and he felt out of place, so she went out of her way to make him feel welcomed every single

rehearsal. She would stand by him and talk to him for a little bit. On the evening of December 19th, when he saw Michelle walking towards him, Curtis felt his heart sore a little. I think he had kind of a crush on her. Curtis said that Michelle had this incredible smile on her face. She was dressed to the nines in her black dress and fur coat, and her blonde hair was floating like a golden halo around her happy face. And when she finally reached him, Michelle and Curtis talked for a bit. He helped a customer and then he asked if she would wait for him because he was going to take his break. She agreed and then they went to go get an Orange Julius and they sat in the food court and they talked for about 30 minutes before he had to get back to work to help his manager close the store.

Curtis walked Michelle to the mall exit. They said goodbye. She flashed him one of her winning smiles and she left the mall. Decades later, Curtis said that this moment haunts him still and he wishes he could go back in time and walk Michelle directly to her car to keep her safe. And you know, this is a very normal feeling, a survivor's guilt. Michelle's friend, Jane, felt the same way. Jane said, maybe if I'd gone with Michelle to the mall, this wouldn't have happened. You don't know that as the friend. You don't know that. What could have happened if Jane went with Michelle to the mall is Jane could have been attacked right along with Michelle. And maybe Curtis, if he'd walked her out to her car, he could have been attacked as well. So I understand that guilt and I understand feeling that you could have done something,

but you don't know that you could have done something and it's not your fault. No. Horrible burden to carry though, right? Yeah, very much. I mean, absolutely horrible. And there's nothing you or I were going to say that someone hasn't already said to him. And he probably still feels the same way today. He does.

He does. He did. He did. I'm not going to tell you how because I don't want to get too far ahead. But he has spoken publicly about this case as recently as a couple of years ago. There you go. And when he talks about her, his voice still cracks. He gets his eyes well up with tears.

It clearly very much still affects him. Yeah. And I will say this, and this isn't in any way, shape, or form, victim blaming or anything like that, but we're here. We're covering these cases. In some situations, there's not much to learn from it. It's just bad people like the last case with Casey Anthony. But in this case, this is something, because I care about everybody out

there. I don't know all of you personally, but I don't want to see anything like this happen to anyone that you care about or you specifically, regardless of how safe your area is, regardless of how comfortable you may feel when you're in a public area. And I actually was putting this on Instagram for some of you guys when I was at the gym, you know, wearing your headphones out to your car, you know, don't do it. Things like that. We have a tendency sometimes to see the best in people because you may be a good person yourself. I hope that people start living their life with the understanding that there are bad

people out there, like genuinely bad people who just want to do bad things. And although you may be doing everything right, you may be the person they choose. So whenever there's an opportunity to use the buddy system as juvenile as that sounds, or even to the point of, you know, I'll give a perfect example at Walmart. They always have someone at the door, at the door, checking your receipts to make sure you didn't steal anything. I promise you, if you're a male or a female and you don't feel comfortable because you had to park way in the back because when you got there, the lot was full. If you ask someone that works there to walk out with you, they'll do it. And if they don't make us think about it, and I guarantee you that there's going to be an uproar, but don't feel

like you're inconveniencing someone for 30 seconds when it could be a life altering thing. So when in doubt, play it safe. If you're by yourself and you can't park close to the door and it's not a well-lit area, or even if it's all of those things and you still don't feel comfortable because you're carrying bags or unable to pay attention at all times because you got to load them into the trunk, please, for the sake of yourself and your family, have someone else come out there with you. Because as common as the place may be, as new, as nice as it may be,

the fact that it's around Christmas, there's evil in this world and they don't care what date it is. They don't care who you are, how great you might be. They're looking for a victim of opportunity. And that one minute where you give it to them, they could take advantage of that. So I know, I don't want, like, I hope, and stop me if I'm wrong, Stephanie, I don't want it to come off like there's anything Michelle could have done differently.

And it was the seventies. It was a different time, really, you know. Different time. And, you know, there may be employees that will make you feel like you're inconveniencing them when you ask them to walk you out. Like, honestly, these days I don't put anything past anyone because everyone's freaking miserable and everyone hates their life and you out. Like, honestly, these days, I don't put anything past anyone because everyone's freaking miserable and everyone hates their life and their jobs and they want to show you that. But who gives a shit?

Inconvenience them, okay? It's five minutes of someone, you know, giving you the side eye in your life. So inconvenience them. And there's no shame in asking for someone to walk you out. There's no shame in that at all. In fact, I do it often. And yeah, I feel like a little old lady sometimes. I'm like, can you help me to my car? But who

cares? I'm still alive. And that's really what matters at the end of the day. And that's a lot of places like that. Shopping malls, places where you go shop for your food, grocery stores, things like that. Gas stations. Gas stations. Offenders are looking for places where you're going to be distracted. If you're carrying clothes or you're carrying food, your hands are occupied, it limits your ability to defend yourself. If they know you're going to be loading stuff into the car, there's going to be moments where you have your back to everyone behind you. They know this. So you have to know it as well and kind of be proactive.

And worst case scenario, nobody's in the lot. You get in your car and you go home. No harm, no foul, no big deal. Yeah. Well, as Michelle was leaving the mall, a teenage girl named Cheryl Adams was entering. So that's what I said earlier. This is still a busy mall. Even though Curtis was going back to the store to help his manager close up, so we're reaching closing time, people are still coming and going. People are still pulling into the parking lot. So it's just crazy to me. But Cheryl, she was smoking a cigarette and she wanted to finish the cigarette before going inside. So she stood outside for a few moments and she said she saw Michelle exit the mall.

She saw Michelle walk out into the dark parking lot and head towards her car. Cheryl then went into the mall. Curtis returned to Chess King, where he helped close up before punching out, and Michelle set out into the cold darkness alone, where a violent force was waiting to end her life. Did this witness see anyone leave the store after her, leave the mall after Michelle? No. Did she know anyone? Okay okay so she didn't see any characters following her out because this person would have to be in somewhat of a close proximity

to get to her you know before she gets in the car so that's interesting i have to feel that he followed her followed her in the mall followed her to the mall and then waited for her in the parking lot yeah okay that's that's the way I think it went down. Okay. Well, I think we're more so in that direction now when you have someone who witnessed her leaving the mall and with all of this taking place, doesn't remember, you know, remembered Michelle very clearly, but doesn't remember seeing anyone following close behind to the point where she might've assumed this person was with her. Right. So that's, that's important. I mean, at least nothing that she said.

Right. But I don't think so. And the police think that whoever attacked Michelle was waiting for her. So that suggests that they must have seen her go to the mall or go into the mall and then they waited outside or they followed her to the mall and then waited for her to come back to her car. Yeah. No one saw Michelle Martinko after that. But around 11 p.m., a mall employee named Phoebe Porter, who didn't know Michelle personally but knew of Michelle through Phoebe's younger sister, she spotted the green and tan Buick parked in the parking lot after the mall had closed.

Phoebe was the assistant manager of Pier 1 Imports, and when she took the store money to the bank drop box at 11 p.m., she saw the car and she remembered thinking, you know, how strange it was that the car would still be there after the mall was closed. Investigators believed that when Michelle approached her car, she opened the back door and put her shopping bags into the back seat. She then got into the driver's seat, placed the key in the ignition, and that was when her attacker snuck up to the car, opened the car door, and forced himself in. In Michelle's autopsy, a bruise was found on her hand that the medical examiner believed was consistent with a blitz attack. So a blitz attack is usually the sign of a disorganized attacker, and offenders like this will typically blitz their victims by using sudden and overwhelming force to assault them.

In attacks like this, the victim's body will usually be left where the attack took place, and the attacker will make no attempt to hide or conceal the crime. But in this case, it was clear that Michelle's attacker had put some planning into his or her crime since they'd come prepared with a pair of rubber gloves that they had put on before the attack. At this point, police believed that Michelle's ex-boyfriend, Andy Sedell, was the best possible suspect. I do want to mention that this theory was heavily bolstered by Michelle's family, who truly believed that Andy was the only one who could have done heavily bolstered by Michelle's family, who truly believed that Andy was the only one who could have done it. The night of Michelle's murder, Andy had called Michelle's house and asked if she was home because he had a Christmas gift for her. So this is about a year after they broke up, and Michelle's sister was telling the story,

and she made it sound like Andy had called and said, is Michelle there? And Michelle's mother, Janet, was like, no, why are you asking? And Andy said, well, because I have a Christmas gift for her. And Michelle's mother had said, oh, no, she's at the mall. Michelle's family told the police that Andy was possessive, even after Michelle had moved on and started dating other guys. Michelle's sister, Janelle, who was several years older than Michelle, so Janelle was already married and living with her husband, John Stonebreaker, by the time her sister was murdered. But both Janelle and her husband John felt that Andy was good for it. And John Stonebreaker said, quote, you wonder two things. You wonder who and you wonder why. There was only one person

in my mind that satisfied both of those questions, and that was Andy. And the motive would be, you know, if I can't have her, no one else can. End quote. Wrong place, wrong time for Andy. If we end up learning that he's not the guy because, you know, we're going to take what they're saying at face value that he was someone who did not take the breakup well. Right. And that happens. Yeah. In high school yeah yeah not every possessive ex turns into a murderer but the fact that that happened in conjunction with him being at the place where she was murdered it's i don't want to say i'm faulting the family for it because you know one plus one equals two type thing where it's like you know a lot of these cases it is personal especially the way she was killed you would think this is someone who was this was a crime of these cases, it is personal, especially the way she was killed. You would think this is someone who was, this was a crime of- A passion. They were upset. Yeah.

That's right. And so this person, whoever did this, had feelings for Michelle one way or the other. So he does check all the boxes. So I'm not going to sit here and say they're wrong because they wanted to find out who killed their loved one. But you can, again, Andy, man, timing, not good. I know. I definitely don't blame the family either because I would have thought the same thing. I have a teenage daughter. I would have thought the same thing. That would have been my main focus. But the family's not the police. So the police are the ones who are going to investigate, right? They're going to see, does this theory pan out? And if it doesn't, there's going to have to be a time where you, you know, let go of it. You let it go, yeah. up to Michelle's casket and he basically almost crawled inside with her. He was so distraught.

He was holding her body in his arms and he looked up at one of Michelle's friends with tears pouring down his face and he said, quote, I have to know who she loved when she died, end quote. I mean, Andy. That's weird. I'm sorry, Andy. That's not the place, man. It's not the place. I don't have a justification for that one. And I just gave Andy- I mean, you don't need a justification for that. I think you really loved her, man. Yeah, that's odd though, Stephanie. the love is so all encompassing that I can understand feeling that way. I don't, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do that, but I don't, I'm not going to say how people should act when they're grieving. By the way, I have no problem with him being in love with her or believing he's in love with her. I think the quote, I need to know who she loved kind of goes more towards like,

if I can't have you, nobody can. Oh, yeah. It's suspicious. That's why it's the phrasing is not if that's the exact phrase that was used i could see him saying i loved her simple done yeah but the fact that he needed to know who she loved i'm assuming he wanted it to be him obviously um you know so that doesn't that doesn't play well for what we're dealing with right now when we're trying to find out who killed her and their motives behind the killing. Yeah, I think he could have been, you know, just thinking like, oh, we're going to get back together. She needs to just go out and see the world and whatever.

But we're going to get back together eventually. Like she loves me. And he was probably constantly waiting for that validation that she did still love him. And now that she's gone, he feels he'll never know whether she still did or not. And that's probably where it came from. But yeah, wrong time, wrong place. And not a good look for you. I wonder if police at her funeral. Oh, yeah. I'm sure they were making notes of everybody there. Yeah. Well, that same day, Andy sat down with the police to answer some questions. And the detectives asked

Andy if he'd gone to the Westdale Mall that night specifically because he knew that Michelle would be there. And he denied this. He said, no, it was just a chance encounter. We just happened to run into each other, which makes sense because it's a new mall. Like all the kids are there. Michelle ran into like six people that she knew that night. So I mean, I'm not going to say that he went there on purpose. And even if he did go there on purpose, if he was like to his buddy, you know, like, hey, John, let's go to to the mall you know michelle's mom says she's there and maybe i can run into her like i want to see her that that's still not not like a proof that he murdered her right that happens yeah definitely crushes at the mall or at the movies you know hey nice seeing you here the roller skating rink

the road absolutely now the friend that andy had been with that night told police that he'd dropped Andy off after they went to the mall. And Andy's mother said that her son stayed home for the rest of the night. But obviously, this wasn't the best alibi for the police or for the people of Cedar Rapids. They were like, well, it's his mom. You know, she could, A, lie for him and want to protect him. Or, you know, maybe Andy did come home, but he snuck out after his mom fell asleep. And then he returned to the mall to attack Michelle. There was no physical evidence, though, that tied Andy to the murder. And so they had to move on, I guess, in body but not spirit.

This would have had to have happened pretty quickly that's what i'm saying like what do they think he's gonna sneak in wait for his mom to go to sleep and then sneak out you know this is like i believe he saw her around like eight ish and she left around you know her car was seen in the parking lot by phoebe at 11 so the attack had already happened i'm assuming it by that point so it would be a quick turnaround from being dropped off to going right back to the mall and happening to be there exactly when Michelle was exiting mall exit that night. He was also brought in for an interview, and he felt that the police were trying very hard to get him to confess to something that he knew he hadn't done. And this upset him, and it sort of ingrained in him a little bit of distrust for law enforcement, at least for the law enforcement officials who were involved in Michelle's case. In the weeks and months after Michelle's murder, there was really no other topic of conversation on the lips

and in the minds of the people of Cedar Rapids. The case was being discussed on radio shows, you know, townspeople were talking it over at diners, and the police warned that young women, women in general, should not be shopping alone during the last week of December. Now, this warning stayed far past December when two women were assaulted by armed men wearing ski masks. And in the week following Michelle's murder,

at least two other women called the police, reporting that they had been followed by a man in a car as they drove home from work. On January 25th, 1980, Assistant Police Chief James Barnes held a press conference during which he informed the public that the police had identified two eyewitnesses who believed that they had possibly seen Michelle's attacker in the mall parking lot on the night of December 19th. And it's kind of funny because, you know, I watched a bunch of documentaries and coverage on this case. And in that coverage, in those documentaries, the law enforcement officials who are being interviewed, they say like, oh, with the help of these two eyewitnesses, we were able

to create a sketch of what the suspect may have looked like. And that's true, I guess. But the eyewitnesses, they were only able to provide these details after being put under hypnosis multiple times. So if you search the archived coverage of this case, you know, like newspapers.com, it's very evident that this is what happened. They were pretty upfront about it back then, but they don't seem to talk about it as much now. And that's most likely because we'll find out that the sketch, it looked nothing like Michelle's actual killer. I mean, polar opposite. So the sketch showed a white man in his late teens or early 20s with brown eyes and curly brown hair. It was estimated that he would be between 165 and 175 pounds and between

five foot eight and six foot tall. So this sketch was really bad. It looks nothing like who did it. Yeah. Happens a lot. We've said it before, right? With sketches, you have individuals who want to do right, are trying to help. They genuinely are trying to help, but they just, they're wrong. Or they didn't get as clear of a look as they thought.

Or it's not even the right person. Or it's not even the right person, you know. Or it's not even the right person. I'm assuming these two individuals were not together. These are two separate parties. No, so they were two middle-aged women who, as far as the police knew, had no connection to each other. To each other, which is important because if the sketches were taken and these women were not connected and the sketch was similar well then there's some validity to it but to what you said a few minutes ago

they both could have seen the same guy but that could be the wrong guy and we've seen the same thing with the delphi murders where you know to this day the sketch were focused on that sketch and i always say like you know just keep it in mind that although we've seen the sketch everywhere, we may find out down the road that's not the guy, right? It could be someone who looks completely different. It could be the quality of the sketch that was taken by the illustrator. It could be the witness, you know, and what they actually saw, or it could be a wrong person altogether. So these are things that you have to consider when you have sketches. They're an important tool, but you don't want to base your whole case off of it. Yeah, for sure.

And I mean, I also feel if you have to put these witnesses under hypnosis like multiple times in order to get a usable sketch, like probably it's not the guy. But police actually used this sketch to go through yearbooks at Michelle's high school, but they could find no one who matched the description. The following April, a bottle was found in the Wapsipanikon River outside the city, and inside that bottle, there was a note that stated the writer was being held hostage by the killer of Michelle Martinko. The note directed law enforcement to a cabin in Paris, Iowa. It's located in the same county as Cedar Rapids, but it turned out to be a cruel prank. There was actually a lot of cruel pranks that were happening in relation to Michelle Martinko. Her mother, Janet, remembered receiving multiple calls where a young girl would be on the other end crying and saying, Mom, Mom, it's Michelle,

before a chorus of giggles could be heard over the phone and the call would disconnect. It's disgusting. Terrible. Could you imagine? Young kids, but yeah, no excuse for that. I don't care how young you are. What are you doing? No. And they probably weren't even that young. They sound like probably teenagers doing that stuff out there drinking some beer and thinking that it's going to be fun it's so sad i can't even imagine like every time i hear stories like this i obviously put myself in the position of this mother and oh i don't know i you're making this this woman relive this over and over again and apparently michelle and her mother janet were incredibly close uh michelle's sister Janelle said that Michelle and her mom were like soulmates.

So Janet took this loss of Michelle incredibly hard. Michelle's face once could be seen on the front page of every Cedar Rapids paper. But as one year passed and then another with no leads, the case went cold and she was relegated to smaller mentions in the margin. She'd be brought up now and then in the media every year on the anniversary of her death. The town did do a memorial and they remembered her and then they would post something about it in the paper. But, you know, it was it was basically just an incredibly cold case. And at that point, the police were banking on someone coming forward who knew something because they felt without that, this case would never be solved because there was zero, zero leads. I mean, there was a $10,000 reward that was offered. Nobody claimed it

because nobody had any information. But in 2006, the case file was opened up once again by cold case detective Doug Larrison. Doug Larrison had actually gone to high school with Michelle. He was one year ahead of her, and he remembered her as a sweet girl who he wanted to attempt to bring justice to. In the sample taken from the gear shift of Michelle's car, the lab had found a partial male DNA profile. For quite a while, investigators believed that Michelle's killer had cut himself while he was attacking her, mixing some of his blood in with Michelle's blood, and this blood was found in the car and on the car. With advancements in DNA technology, Doug Larrison would now be able to eliminate suspects based on their DNA, whether it matched the DNA found at the scene.

Michelle's ex-boyfriend, Andy Seidel, voluntarily gave law enforcement a sample of his DNA, but it didn't match. Surprise, surprise. It was never Andy Seidel. And this poor kid, I mean, he eventually left because he just said there was so much suspicion in the town. Like, everybody thought he did it. I can't even imagine. That must have been incredibly traumatic. Detectives then requested DNA from Curtis Thomas. That was the teenager who had walked Michelle to the mall exit. But Curtis was not so cooperative.

Like I said, he had not liked the way that he'd been grilled initially. You know, he was I think he really had it bad for Michelle. And just the thought that anybody thought he could have done this to her. It really bugged him. And I guess, you know, back in the old days, we were talking about it earlier in this episode, how difficult it was to solve crimes in the old days. So you'd need like, you know, eyewitnesses or blatant fingerprints or you need to yell at your suspect until they confess. Right. That's pretty much what what the detectives did back then. They just kind of grill you and like pressure you and put a lot of like a lot of pressure on you, hoping that you would break and confess. Yeah. And, you know, not I wasn't there, but, you know, to Curtis and anybody else like

that is a tactic. It's not personal. It is a tactic where you may not know exactly if they did it, but like you just said, apply pressure, you know, present it as if you know, it's fact, Hey, listen, you killed her. I know you killed. And I mean, he was 16, man, but more to the point where if it's a 16 year old kid that did something he shouldn't, it's usually easier to break them. The fact that they didn't, I'm sure they left that saying, you know what? We applied the pressure. It didn't work. However he feels, he's entitled to feel that way.

So Curtis, he didn't like the way that he'd been grilled and he didn't like the cloud of suspicion that had been hanging over him since Michelle's death. He felt that the police had been trying to connect him to her murder and he didn't want to help them do that. So he called the police and he told them that he was not going to be providing a sample of his DNA. Now, this is like decades later. This is a grown man at this point. And Curtis claims that when the detective on the other end of the line heard this, he shouted out to his colleagues that they had found the killer of Michelle Martinko while Curtis was still on the phone

with him. So basically, the detectives are like, hey, we need a sample of your DNA. Curtis is like, I don't really feel super comfortable with this. And the cops like, hey guys, we got him. It's him. It's him. I love that. I love it. I absolutely love it. He was being facetious, but I love it because it's a tactic where he's basically saying, hey, you know, you want to cooperate. You have this guilt over it. You know, everyone else has given their DNA. I'm sure if he truly thought that, hey, because you said you weren't going to do it, you're the guy.

I would hope that you wouldn't want to, you know, expose what you thought to the actual killer because they may flee the area or kill themselves or whatever. So it probably was something where he was being a jerk. The cop was being a jerk and was like, hey, we got our guy intentionally so that Curtis would hear it. Get even more pissed off and now want to help even more. Yeah. Well, I mean, well, at that point, if he's saying he doesn't feel comfortable doing it, what chances do you have? If he's saying, I don't want to do it, you got to try to make it so he feels like, oh, all right, you think it's me? Watch this. I mean, again, it's a psych game.

It's a game of chess. It's like reverse psychology. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. He was trying to piss him off to the point where he may submit to it just to prove him wrong.

I just, I don't know, like the brutality of that crime, the fact that they were looking so hard at, you know, not even her ex-boyfriend because he was in college at that point. So I guess it's a little bit more understandable. But the fact they're looking so hard at this 16-year-old Curtis, who's got no criminal record, you know, he's a scrawny little kid. He punched out, you know, he had the alibi of the girl who had come up and was smoking a cigarette and saw Curtis go back into the mall and Michelle walk out to her car. I mean, I would have been pissed too if I was Curtis because I'd be like, guys, I was with Michelle. I walked her to the door. Then I went back to work. I helped my manager. I punched out. There's proof of where I was at the time that this happened. And that girl was the last person to see

her, the one smoking the cigarette. Like, why do you keep coming back to me? Because what's he going to do? Punch out and then go out and kill her? By then, she's going to have gotten in her car and left. Could the time card have been manipulated? His manager was with him. Listen, if everything was on the up and up on every single case and everything that you saw was exactly the way it appeared, our job would be a lot easier. But sometimes when someone commits a crime, they do try to do certain things to hide said crime. Now, if there's someone else with him, like you said, a manager who's standing there, then yeah, I'm with you. But I'm not speaking for you. I'm obviously just speaking for myself. If you're out there professing that you wanted

to help, you had this guilt, for me personally, and I'm not talking as a cop, just me personally, if you can do something to help or rule yourself out, I would submit to the DNA test personally. That's my opinion. And you guys weigh in the comments down below. But I do think when you have nothing to hide, DNA, well, this is 2006. DNA is pretty damn good at this point in 2006. I would probably submit to it. And if you're suddenly not willing to submit to it, I'm not saying I would say you're guilty, but it wouldn't make me question some things. It absolutely would make me question some things. I don't think I'm a bad guy for saying that.

But John, you know, he talked about Andy. Andy was probably even a bigger suspect than Curtis, right? Is that fair to say? I would say that. Yeah. And Andy was like, yes, please. Let me, let me take this DNA test because I know I didn't kill her. Here you go. Um, you know, so Curtis not being willing to take it and say that it was because he was treated poorly during the initial, uh, interview or even let's say interrogation,

I think, I think is a poor excuse. But that's just my opinion. I see I don't because I would feel like Curtis. I'd be like, I know I didn't do this. I know you guys don't have anything on me and yet you're still grilling me and you're still pushing me and I still have this suspicion hanging over me. So maybe you just want to pin this on me. Some of us are more paranoid than others. That's fair. Yeah. That is fair. Like me. And see, that's how people would look at it where it's like, are you trying to pin this on me because you have nowhere else?

Yeah. It's been how long after? And they're just trying to close it? I would say just from the other side of the aisle that they're trying to rule you out definitively. And this technology will allow us to do that. You know, we haven't had something up to this point until 2006 where we're able to take DNA, analyze it against your own and definitively rule you out as a suspect. We haven't had that. So there's been a lot of speculation around your name.

We want to put that to the end right now. We want to clear your name once and for all. Fair enough. Right. But also Curtis is thinking I've already definitively ruled myself out. That don't matter. They don't have anything on me. I can't actually be a suspect because they have nothing on me. And at this point, why do I want to help them do their jobs when all it's going to do is rule me

out? It's not going to find her killer. Me giving my DNA isn't going to help them get further or closer to finding Michelle's killer. It's just going to rule me on. They shouldn't even be focusing on me to begin with. That's how I would be thinking. From the detective here, don't do that. Don't do that. But also from the detective here, you can admit that sometimes, you can admit, sometimes law enforcement, they get a little bit of tunnel vision and they do things to fit their narrative. And I'm not saying plant evidence or frame frame people, but I'm saying like, you know, they do.

That happens. We know it does. Officers definitely have been, have definitely planted evidence. I wasn't, I wasn't making allegations. But I don't know of any detective yet has figured out the science to manipulate DNA to fit someone it doesn't belong to. No, I wouldn't think that they were doing that, but I'm saying. So that's, that's what we're talking about here.

We know that they do get tunnel vision because you were like, well, it could have been him. Even though he punched out, even though he had his manager there, it still could have... No, that's tunnel vision at that point when you have a pretty rock solid alibi and you're still- No, it's not. They also were looking at Andy. So they had tunnel vision on two teenage boys. So I mean, they were looking at people who had been with her the last time. They're looking at multiple people. On two teenage boys. So, I mean, they were looking at people who had been with her the last time. You know, they're looking at that. They don't trust Andy.

They don't trust Curtis. That's another good point, Derek. Remember when we first started talking about this case and I said, well, if it's not a robbery and it's not a sexual assault, what's the motive? And you said, well, as a law enforcement official, my first thought is going to be this probably was a sexual assault, but he just didn't get to complete it. But their first thought was not a sexual assault, not a robbery. It's got to be like someone she knows. They didn't even really like, they didn't really initially go outside of that. It's got to be somebody she knows thing. That's tunnel vision. To bring it back, what we're talking about though, which is submitting to a DNA sample. I mean, there's a lot that we can go over here, go over there.

Ultimately, they were saying, hey, listen, we have this technology now. We're able to compare your DNA to this potential suspect DNA. We'd like to have your DNA to rule you out definitively. Let's say, hey, we think it's you, right? We believe it's you. Ultimately, we're not smart enough to alter your DNA profile to fit this unknown DNA profile in the vehicle. So if it's not you, we can't go there. If anything, by you giving your DNA and it coming back not to you, if we still think it's you at that point, we're screwed because no court is going to convict you when the DNA doesn't match.

Well, yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. I just, I think they could have been less dickish about it, but. I mean, that's, I mean, there's a lot of things I wish people would do different. I think I wish there's police officers that would be more sociable when they're doing it. There's also many witnesses and potential suspects that I wish were more cooperative so we could definitively rule them out. Well, eventually Curtis Thomas and his attorney did sit down with police. I guess the police were like, sorry, we treated you that way. A hundred percent. Shocker. Yeah. And Curtis did provide a sample of DNA, which also... Time out for a second. You just fought me all that time to say that I would never have given it, man. I would never have given. I would have been like, I know it's not me,

but I'm not going to do anything to help you. I can't believe you had the balls to treat me this way. Like, no, I'm not handing my DNA. And you know what? It was 2000. And what do we say? 2006 DNA is still new. And like, I still don't feel comfortable giving my DNA like I'm not doing that 23andMe genealogy crap I'm not giving my DNA to anybody so we don't know Curtis Thomas could have been a crazy person like me you said it not me I'm gonna take a sip of my water and that's fine I can admit I'm self-aware I know I know what I am I know what I'm not I'm not a little simp that's gonna give my my DNA to the police after they treated me like that go Curtis I got your back, man. So eventually, Curtis did sit down with his attorney and the police, and he did provide a

sample of DNA, which also did not match the killer's DNA that had been found at the scene of the crime. Police then tested the DNA profile against hundreds of other samples taken from multiple men in the area. I'm talking like family members, teachers, friends, principals, everybody she saw that night, etc., etc., including Michelle's brother-in-law, John Stonebreaker, but none of them matched either. Now, when Andy Seidel was eliminated as a suspect, Michelle's family was truly stunned. They had been so sure that Andy was the one. Michelle's parents had both passed away by this time. Albert had died in 1995 and Janet followed him in 1998. But Janet Martinko, she went to her grave believing that Andy Seidel had killed her

daughter. She'd even kept writing about it in the journal she kept. She was writing in this journal. She knew it was him. How are we going to figure it out? This case is never going to be solved because they don't have anything on him. And yeah, it was pretty rough. When Michelle's sister Janelle was interviewed about this, she said, I wish we could tell him we're sorry, but he won't really like talk to us. You know, he kind of moved out of the area. He joined the Navy, I believe. He was married. And by the time all of this was happening, he was married. He had his own life somewhere else. And I think he just wanted to leave Cedar Rapids and the whole mess behind him. So I don't I don't think that they have talked at this point, but he's not really having it. And, you know, they feel horrible. But what are you going to do as a family member?

You know, you have to give the police something. You have a suspicion. You didn't do anything wrong. I understand that he's upset and he probably doesn't want to, you know, hear any apologies. That's his choice because his life was severely impacted by it. Can't blame him. The next step was to enter the DNA profile of Michelle's killer into the CODIS database, but they could not do that with only a partial profile. So Doug Larrison turned back to the evidence, including the black dress that Michelle had been wearing the night of her murder. Doug Larrison said, quote, I was working with a partner at the time and we wanted to send in other evidence to the lab because maybe they had some new techniques where they could find additional evidence, end quote.

And they did. The lab found a bloodstain on Michelle's dress and this one had a full male DNA profile in it. And that full profile matched the partial profile that had been found in the blood on the gear shift. Unfortunately, even with the full DNA profile, there was no match in CODIS, which was disappointing. And the case went cold again. But do you want to give us a quick rundown of what CODIS is, just in case people listening aren't aware? Yeah, CODIS is essentially a database where DNA profiles can be entered, whether it's felons, they'll be entered in CODIS is essentially a database where DNA profiles can be entered, whether it's felons, they'll be entered in CODIS, whether it's cases like this where they have a full DNA profile,

but there's nobody who matches that profile yet. Essentially what happens is let's say my profile's in there and I commit a murder, but up to the point where I committed my first murder, my DNA had never been retrieved. I'd never been arrested before. Now I go commit this other murder. I get caught for it. I go to prison. They do a buccal swab. They take my buccal swab. They enter that automatically into CODIS. Any cases that are out there that have a DNA profile matching my own, it'll automatically connect you to that case so that the investigators can say, hey, we have a hit. There you go. Now you have your person. And there's hundreds and thousands of entries in CODIS at any one time. So a lot, a lot.

And it's not just for murders, right? So like all these rape kits that we talk about, there's still a lot that need to be done. But they open up these rape kits. They develop these DNA profiles from these suspects. In some cases, they connect it to somebody who's already in CODIS. But in many instances, they can't find a match, but that doesn't mean they don't upload it. It's still into CODIS. And now down the road, if this individual commits another offense, they can be connected

to that previous crime. Yeah, it's actually really great. And I think that there was a lot of hope, right, that it's not anybody she knows because we've pretty much tested the entire town. So now we're past that point where we think it's somebody she knows because we've pretty much tested the entire town. So now we're past that point where we think it's somebody she knows. This could have been somebody driving through, like a hardened career criminal who just is making his habit of attacking young girls in parking lots. And we're going to put that profile in CODIS and it's going to hit and we're going to finally have our answer.

So it was very disappointing when that didn't happen. Yeah, that's a tough one. I've never had that personally happen, but I can't imagine the excitement when they decide to step outside the box, re-examine the dress, and they find this bloodstain matches. They're able to retrieve it, get a full DNA, and they're probably high-fiving around the office. And then to have this happen, that must be extremely frustrating. Yeah, I think that happened a lot, too, in the early days. As soon as they had like a DNA profile, they were like, oh, that snap is over. Like we're getting this guy now. And now we know in 2022 that there's oftentimes DNA found in a scene that still isn't isn't, you know, tracked back to anybody. And there's just these random samples floating around in the system waiting to have names and faces attached to them. That's right. So when Detective Doug Larrison retired, he in the system waiting to have names and faces attached to them. That's right.

So when Detective Doug Larrison retired, he handed the case over to another detective, someone who had a personal connection to the case. Detective Matt Denglinger was only five years old when Michelle was killed, but he'd grown up with the case due to his father, Harvey, who had been the lead detective on Michelle's case in the 70s and 80s. So this is actually really cute. Matt Denglinger did a lot for Michelle's case in the 70s and 80s. So this is actually really cute. Matt Denlinger did a lot for Michelle's case. I would say that he is the one. You know, obviously, with the other detectives, Detective Doug Larrison did a lot. But Matt Denlinger, he's the one that made this happen.

And he took over the case in 2015, and it became his mission to solve it. And that is where we will pick up in the second and final part of this case next week. And you guys are not going to want to miss it because Matt Denlinger is going to find the guy. And there's a really cool process that he uses Parabon NanoLabs to do it. He uses the snapshot that Parabon has. He does some like seriously good detective work, like going and following people and collecting straws out of their drinking cups and diners and stuff, really good stuff. And then he actually confronts this man, this perpetrator. And hopefully I'll be able to play you some audio. And for YouTube listeners, YouTube watchers, viewers, you'll be able to see it.

But it's very, very interesting. And really, it's unexpected. So don't miss next week. Listen to the conclusion of this case because it just gets stranger. I'm looking forward to it. I was like, when, you know, people think outside the box and part of the reason you pass these cases onto, you know, newer, younger detectives is not only because their way of thinking is different because they were trained differently, they're using newer technology, but there's kind of like a rejuvenation to the case, right? Because they're doing it for the

first time. I remember a lot of the cases that cold cases that we would work, um, getting that folder and starting from scratch, you may not be tainted by some of the cold cases that we would work, getting that folder and starting from scratch. You may not be tainted by some of the initial impressions the first detective was tainted by, and that may help you. And so it's always good to see these cases get passed on, not because of just attrition, but also to get a new fresh set of eyes on it. Yeah, fresh eyes. Yeah. I do think not only for detectives to pass them down, but also we need to be more willing as a community, law enforcement community, to not only pass it down to younger detectives, but to also laterally pass it to people outside of law enforcement. There's a couple individuals that I've worked with who have no law enforcement training whatsoever, but are PhDs and are brilliant and have solved cases based on their unorthodox style of thinking. That's not the way we're trained, but just as effective. So I hope that continues as well, where we're seeing people

outside the law enforcement community being involved. Because sometimes when you're trying to get from point A to point B, and you're all using the same train of thought, because you're trying to get from point A to point B and you're all using the same train of thought because you're all kind of under the same type of training, having someone who doesn't look at as A as B is just a straight line, but as a circle, that's how you end up solving a case that you didn't think was solvable. I agree. We've had that talk before, you know, when we have our arguments about how police shouldn't be so like close to the chest with these cold cases. And I'm not talking cold like five years, but we're talking about like decades where they haven't been able to do anything and now maybe open it up to some other people

who have an interest in solving cases. We see a lot of online armchair detectives, whatever you wanna call them, helping to solve these cases simply because of that, a fresh set of eyes and a completely different way of thinking. And that's very important. And I do think that this specific case, it's very interesting because

it's the last person you would think. The person who killed Michelle is the last person you would think. And everybody said that. Everybody said that. Nobody could believe it. And it's just, I don't think that without the DNA, without the DNA, this never would have been solved. And this person would have continued on. And I mean, God knows what else he had done or what else he would go on to do. And that's where the connection to other cases comes in. And it's very interesting. So don't forget to join us next week. Thank you so much for being here. Derek, take us out with all the socials. Crime Weekly Pod for Instagram and Twitter. And if you want to check out our website and go to crimeweeklypodcast.com. Yeah, that's it, right?

That's it. See you guys next week. See you guys next week. Bye. Bye.