Crime Weekly - S2 Ep85: Danielle Redlick: Murder or Self-Defense? (Part 2)

Episode Date: July 1, 2022

The statistics tell us that intimate partner homicide is far more common than any of us would like to believe, with nearly one out of five murder victims being killed by a person they were in a romantic relationship with. It’s hard to understand how love and passion can turn to hate and violence, but if you look at the studies, it seems the most common motive is jealousy. But when the woman in the relationship is the attacker, and the man is the victim, and there is a history of domestic violence between them, we have to examine the details a bit more closely, because for society as a whole, it’s hard to determine what is right, what is wrong, and what is a moral gray area. In January of 2019, after allegedly dealing with years of physical abuse and emotional neglect, 46 year old Danielle Redlick stabbed her husband of over a decade. It would be eleven hours before she would call 911 to report his death, at which time she claimed 65 year old Michael Redlick had died from a heart attack after stabbing himself. During a police investigation, law enforcement discovered that the true situation was not as straightforward as Danielle had made it seem, and she was soon under arrest for murder, but during her trial all of the details came out, painting a complicated picture of a relationship that had maybe always been far from perfect. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod

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the fence, go over there, check it out. Every single bag, whether it's undercover, whether it's rogue or alias, they're all $16.50 per bag. So pick your poison, drink it all you want. It's not actually poison, guys. I don't want anybody to take it too literally. I knew Stephanie was going to say that. Even though it's a relatively known saying, I knew she was going to put that disclaimer out there. Well, you have to these days. That was really it. Yeah, there's something I want to say before we dive into today's episode on Danielle and Michael Redlich. And it has to do with the title of

last episode, which was, you know, Danielle and Michael Redlich, Romeo and Juliet question mark. And there's so many comments about like, Romeo and Juliet did this, not this. And then my favorite comment, I screenshotted it so I can read it to you. Stephanie, Romeo and Juliet did not kill each other. WTF? Oh, I saw this one. Where on earth did you come up with that? They both committed suicide when they saw the other one wasn't alive. They couldn't live without each other. They did not kill each other!

Exclamation point. All right. So, I don't know. I don't know. I didn't think this would... We talked about the title because we always do. Way more comments. Everyone knows how Romeo and Juliet ends. Why did we make that title? Derek and I definitely know how Romeo and Juliet ends. Why did we make that title?

Derek and I definitely know how Romeo and Juliet ends, okay? Why did we make that title? Well, if you had watched the video or listened, which I hope most of you did. I hope most of those comments were made. They were 100% before they watched it. 100%. You haven't figured that out. They were definitely commenting the minute they saw the title. They didn't even watch the video or listen to the audio. Yeah, but how could they have done that then? Because they don't technically know how the case ends. So why would they assume that it didn't end in that? See, that's where I'm thinking. It's people who already know the case. my bad i'm sorry because you know what we didn't those aren't our words we didn't make that up we weren't like oh daniel and michael and romeo she mentioned it in her email to him as well as in her dating profile and meet mindful and that's why we made that the title not because we were comparing them to romeo and juliet who aren't even real people, by the way, but we weren't. We weren't doing that. We don't just make things up or make titles up for effect. We're not clickbaity to that extent,

okay? So just watch the episode first. And if you're going to make a comment that includes WTF and a lot of exclamation points, make sure you watch the episode first. Otherwise, you're going to look like this guy who got called out for making a stupid comment. I'll take it a step further. Not every title is going to hit. Not every comment we make you're going to love. If we were concerned about every single thing, we always want to have respect for the families and their loved ones. And so that is not a disrespectful comment. It's a question mark. We're not saying, we're not comparing them. There's no literal sense to it. So unfortunately, we understand that sometimes

there are people who are going to be offended by what we say, even if we have no malicious intent behind what we're saying. That's okay. That's life. It's okay to be offended once in a while. We're not going out there trying to offend people. And then there are other times where people are just looking for something to complain about. And I'm not saying that's always the case, but it is the case sometimes. So we'll always continue to keep the families in mind. There's a lot more salacious titles we could come up with to really be click baity and get people just to come to the video. That's what I'm saying. And we don't. We avoid it.

And why Stephanie? Why are you calling Stephanie out in this comment? Like Stephanie's the only one here. Well, there's obviously someone from your channel or something. I don't know. Yeah, well, you said last week. I'm just a fan of Derek. That you don't get credit when you say stuff. And so they're calling you out.

There you go. You got what you asked for. I got my credit. There you go. You got what you asked for. I got my credit. There you go. You wanted credit. Here you go. Oh, you are so right. Be careful what you ask for, I guess. There you go. All right. Well, let's dive in. Let's start. Are you ready to start? Yes, I am. Let's do it.

Okay. So when we last left off in this case, Michael and Danielle Redlich were entwined in a marriage that was characterized by periods of violence that began to occur more often as time went on. After moving to Florida so that Michael could take a position with Davos Sports Business Management, which is a business school that's associated with the University of Central Florida? In 2014, this pattern continued, and eventually Danielle asked Michael to move out, which he did, but they continued to try to make the marriage work, and he would eventually move back into the family home in Winter Park, Florida. However, during this time of living apart, Danielle had found out that her husband, Michael, had been seeing another woman from his Al-Anon group, and she filed for divorce. This divorce was never finalized because Michael was able to convince Danielle that he still loved her and wanted to be with her exclusively.

But Danielle did find out that Michael was not being upfront with her about how he felt after she found a speech that he had written in which he claimed that he was divorced and single and that his wife could never be happy, not with him or anyone else. So at the end of 2018, Danielle joined a dating site called Meet Mindful. She began to communicate with different men, but her husband, Michael, who moved back in with her in November of 2018, he wasn't aware that she was exploring her options outside of their marriage. He would become aware of this on January 10th, 2019, just two days before he was found dead in his home located at 1231 Temple Drive in Winter Park, Florida. Now, Danielle testified that on the morning of Thursday, January 10th, 2019, she had gone to take a shower after getting the kids off to school and while Michael was out of the house running some errands. When she got into the shower, Danielle left her cell phone on the bedside table. When she got out of the shower and walked out of the bathroom connected to the master bedroom, she saw her husband Michael sitting in a chair in their bedroom and he was upset.

I asked him what was wrong and he said, I don't know, why don't we ask Cesar? Cesar? Who is Cesar? It's a guy that I had given my number to that I had met online, and I was talking to him, texting. So when you hear what your husband has said, what does that signify to you? That he must have looked at my phone.

Your husband says, I don't know, why don't we ask Caesar, what happens next? How do you respond? I said, you must have looked at my phone, and he had the phone in his hand, and he just held it up. He had the phone in his hand?

Okay. Do you know what, without telling me what they said, do you know what the texts were pertaining to? Yes. When Michael shows you the phone, how does it go from there? He says, I just have one question. Are you sleeping with him?

But he used profanity. What did he say? If you're going to tell us what he said, please quote him so that we know the words used. Are you fucking him? He said, are you fucking him? Yes. He says that. What's your response?

He said, no, it's not like that. I just met him a couple months ago. We've just been texting. Had you ever met this person in person? No. Do you recall what the substance of the text was yes what was the substance he was inviting me to a florida cup soccer game a soccer game yes among other texts and what else he'd sent me a picture of himself from his jiu-jitsu studio. He was an instructor. What happens next? He jumps up from his chair and he starts walking over to me and he immediately

starts yelling. What's he saying at that point? He's saying, it's not like that, it's not like that. What do you mean? And he's in my face and I'm just turning my head with my eyes closed, letting him yell. And he starts referencing the texts and he picks up a he picks up a book next to the off the dresser and he throws it in the wall and so I just put my hands up and I walked over to my closet while I was trying to get dressed in my closet I had a robe on so I was trying to put some pants on and he he did come in the closet and cornered me I fell into the wall but he he didn't touch me at that point what's his demeanor at that point in the back in the in the closet

extremely angry i really couldn't argue with him because i knew he was mad and hurt so i just said you know we can talk about this but you you're going to have to calm down. That wasn't happening. So I said, well, I'm going to give you some time. And I grabbed my bags and I was just going to go do what I was going to do. So I think it was the right thing for Danielle to leave. This is a good thing to do when your partner is irate. You know, it would give Michael a chance to calm down, and hopefully they could talk about it civilly after things were de-escalated. She went out to

do some Christmas returns, because this is right after Christmas, but Michael allegedly did not want to calm down because he followed her after she left. She first went to DSW, the shoe store, to return something, and when she left the store to go back to her car in the parking lot, she claims she found Michael parked near her car, staring at her and seething, is what she called it. She got into her car and she drove to the Gap, watching Michael follow her and pull into the same parking lot. But this time he followed her into the store, he confronted her in the store, telling her she was an effing piece of work, and because she was embarrassed, Danielle left the store. Michael followed her out, screaming in her face and poking her with his finger in her back and shoulder as she walked to her car. Now at this point, they both sat in their respective cars in the parking

lot, neither one of them leaving, both of them just sitting in their car. So Danielle decided to try and call him to see if she could reason with him. And during this call, Danielle could tell that Michael was not calming down. In fact, he was getting more and more angry. What's he saying at that point? He said, he started off saying like, little miss holier than thou has a boyfriend. Now she's not going to have a husband or a life. And then he said, and he's a Puerto Rican, too, just like your Puerto Rican stepfather. The loser that I found. I found you where I found you.

Were you able to actually have a conversation with him about anything substantive or was it just kind of the talking tone you described? Yeah. Now, Danielle eventually hung up and Michael did try to call her multiple times, but she was on the other line. So he ended up leaving a few voicemails. And I'm going to play these voicemails. They're quick, but it does give you an indication of, I suppose, Michael's state of mind. How angry was he? How angry could he get? What was he feeling? What was he thinking in these moments? Really love doing this to me. Sleeping with me and then touching him immediately. Calling him, whatever you were doing, however you were communicating. Laughing behind my back.

Yeah, my feelings are not really talking to you now. You must have really enjoyed that, didn't you? And don't tell me anymore, oh, you remember who Dan was. You are who Dan is. Your record is what your record says you are. You are Dan and that's who you've always been. A person that would do something like that. You must have really gotten a great laugh out of it the other night. Oh, I think I'm going to start studying jujitsu. Yeah, right. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu.

I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu.

I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. I'm going to start studying jujitsu. something like that. You must have really gotten a great laugh out of it the other night. Oh, I think I'm going to start studying jujitsu. Yeah, right. You must have just been howling inside through all this. I heard. Hey, you're grumbling at what you were doing to me. I'm going to take jujitsu classes. I'm going home. I'd really appreciate it if you check into a hotel.

Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back so that is interesting it does back up some of danielle's story and this goes back to episode one where i talked about outside parties other witnesses people that could corroborate her story. Because for the most part, all we have is her statements. And what's interesting about this is we don't necessarily have specific witnesses, but this is from 2019. So DSW, Gap, I would assume, especially at Gap, there's cameras, there's security cameras, and at least internally in the store for theft or whatever, employee theft, all those good things. And so I would assume that those cameras would be able to confirm some of her, her story as well. I don't know if we're going to see that or whatever, but these are things where even if there are not cameras, the fact that Danielle is making these specific statements

about him following her into the store, him pointing his finger at her, she doesn't know if there's cameras. And I don't think she does unless she worked there in the past. And I think most people would assume there are cameras. So if she's lying, she's creating a huge risk for herself because she could be creating this narrative that can be discredited by actual security footage. So to me, it does give some credence to what she's saying because again, this isn't behind closed doors in their home. This isn't a public storefront or whatever you want to call it, a shopping store. What would you call that? A gap, not a

shopping center. A retail establishment. A retail store. Let's go with that. Yeah. Let's go with a retail store, something where there are other people, there are employees. There's a lot of people there that could confirm what she's saying or make her look like a liar. So to me, that gives some credence to what she's saying going forward. And then you have the voicemails. And I will say in Michael's defense, he doesn't sound like completely out of control and like he's seething to me. In fact, when he said, I'd appreciate it if you check into a hotel tonight, please. That doesn't sound like the guy that I was picturing in my head as she was describing him. But in the same breath, he is not happy. That's for sure. true because if she could have been discredited and she could have. Oh, they would have. Yeah. The prosecution would have been like, no one followed you to the gap. No one followed you

to DSW. You're just making that up. So, I mean, it's not a 100 percent certainty that this happened, but it is, I would say, 100 percent certainty that the prosecution couldn't find anything to discredit what she had said. And they even probably sent somebody to the stores to be like, hey, do you remember this happening? You know, especially in the gap. So they probably did find some evidence of it. And, you know, they would have their cell phones later and they'd be able to do like a whole cellular map of where they were. So they would have been able to discredit her with just the cell phone information. I think they could have said, hey, Michael was home when this happened. So you're lying. So it definitely, I feel like it probably did happen.

And I'm trying to be unbiased. I really am. And there was a lot of people who kind of said the same thing that you did. Like, he doesn't sound like he's like out of control. He doesn't sound angry. And I guess I would agree. But you can hear, you can't really hear super well what he's saying, right? Because it's like playing in court and it's echoing.

But you can hear certain things he's saying, like? Because it's like playing in court and it's echoing. But you can hear certain things he's saying like, oh, give me a break. And you were probably laughing and you were probably having a grand old time making fun of me. He's clearly insecure. I'm just going to say that. The dude's clearly insecure. He's the kind of guy who thinks everybody's got an inside joke and he's the butt of her joke and she's laughing with her boyfriends about him and things like that. And we don't know exactly what he read on her phone in those messages. So maybe she was. I don't know. But he's not happy. However, I would agree that the ending statement, I'd appreciate it if you would check into a hotel. It's probably the best thing for them, right, to be separate at this point, not be in the same home because it's just going to get worse. He's not ready to forgive.

He's not ready to move on. And he doesn't even want to really talk about it. He just wants to be angry at this point. So he's going home. He says, I'd appreciate it if you check into a hotel. But apparently, Danielle had an interview later that afternoon. And this interview was to be done over the phone. So she said she had to go home and get ready for it and log into her computer. She said she texted Michael to let him know that she was coming home, and when she got there, he continued to harass her about this man, Cesar, asking her if she had met up with him while she had been out, and when she told him that she had a phone interview to do, she claims he grabbed her phone out of her hand and ran outside, and it was at this moment that their daughter, Jaden, arrived home.

From school, I would assume. Danielle claims she took this opportunity to grab her phone back from Michael, at which point he walked out of the house but did not leave the premises. Danielle went back to her laptop so that she could do her interview, but about 10 minutes into the interview, Michael walked back into the house. He sees me at the table on the phone and he starts yelling, she's a liar, she's a liar, don't hire her, she's a lying bitch. I don't want the person to hear, so I get up and I walk out the front door and get into my car to try and

finish the interview there. What do you do at that point? I lock the car and I continue to talk. What's your husband doing? He comes out the front door, comes over to the driver's side door and starts banging on the door and starts repeating the same things. So what do you do then? I ask the person if I can call him back and I just drive off to Azalea Park, which is in the neighborhood, and I continue the interview there. It's such a bad situation, you know, like such a bad situation to be in the same house at this point. Like so, so bad. Yeah. Really toxic situation for, for her. And I mean, you're, you're having issues, you're arguing. I understand being upset, finding out your wife is talking to another man over the phone. I could see how that would make me upset if she's doing it behind my back, but to say those things and to do those things while

she's on the phone with an interview, you got to have some composure. You got to keep things in check and understand that when she gets off, you can continue talking about what you're talking about, but to do that in the middle of an interview, it's not good. It's not good. And one more case where I'm sure they talked to the person that was interviewing her, and I would assume he heard what he was saying if he was yelling it in the background, and she had to obviously call him back to deal with the situation, I would think, again, like you said earlier, that both law enforcement officials and the prosecution and the defense all confirmed that that was in fact the case, because if it hadn't been, whatever side it would have benefited, it would have been brought up in court against her or for her. Dude, it was super hard to hear it because like you said, oh, he should have kept his composure and talked about it after. That's not how these guys, that's not how they operate. They are self-destructive at that point. They want to

blow everything up and they don't care if it affects them negatively. They don't care if it affects the kids negatively. They don't care if it affects anybody negatively. I've been in these situations and all they want to do is hurt you and they don't care how they do it and they don't care who else they hurt in the process, even if it ends up hurting themselves. Like it's just very, very bad, angry. It's out of control. And it's real awkward too, because yeah, there's something to be dealt with here. But at the same time, like you're not ready to talk about it. You just want to rage. That's what I'm getting from her version of events. If that's what happened or not, I don't know. But from her version of events, he doesn't want to talk about it. He doesn't want to hear justifications or excuses or come to some sort of conclusion about what happened. He just wants to be angry right

now. And until he's ready to not be angry anymore, nothing productive is happening. And I saw in the comments that some people believed that after Michael had asked her not to return to the house and told her to check into a hotel, she should have respected that and like done her interview somewhere else, knowing how upset he was and knowing that they weren't going to be able to have a productive conversation until he had calmed down. You know, since she'd probably been in that position with him before. What do you personally think about that? Like, as a police officer, do you think that would have been the right move? Well, as a police officer, yeah, I mean, it would have been the right move to have them separate. I would even make the argument that Michael not having an interview could have left and said, hey, I'm going to go.

I'm going to stay at a hotel tonight. You have an interview. You do your thing here and I'll come back. So I could make that argument for both. I'm going to speculate a little bit here and I may get some blowback in the comments. It's okay. We talked in episode one about all the things that Michael was doing behind her back and all the things that she kept catching. And let's, for the sake of this conversation here, just assume that with Caesar, it was just that it was just text messaging, you know, light flirtatious conversations, whatever it may be. I almost feel like maybe Danielle was like a little happy that he found it. Like, here's a little, here's a little, uh, taste of your own

medicine. Like, see, I'm wanted by others. You're treating me like crap, uh, doing things behind my back, uh, wanting to leave the house multiple times to be on your own. Well, guess what? I can do that as well. Now there's nothing here to suggest that, but maybe she came back thinking I'm not leaving my home because I was texting another man. Uh, you're going to act like that, but I've taken you back multiple times for the things you've done to me. How's it feel to have the shoe on the other foot? I'm going to be here. I'm going to conduct my interview. I'm not going anywhere. Maybe she thought that maybe she didn't, I don't know. I wasn't there, but I don't think she's sitting there feeling bad for him considering everything he's done to her i don't think she's sitting there feeling sorry for him like oh poor you but again only only danielle knows that what

she was thinking inside her head there's not another person in this entire world who knows what she was thinking in that moment but do i think she had to leave her home no i do not so yeah i would agree with you in like a normal circumstance if you were dealing with a normal couple who didn't have like instances of violence between them and um i think if it had been we really don't know what danielle's part is in this right we're not sure like how much of an instigator she was or how much she kind of um knowingly put herself right in situations. But I know a sane person, a sane person who has an ounce of self-preservation in an abusive relationship is going to do everything they can to not push those buttons, right?

Right. Not push those buttons ever. And you're not going to carry on an affair or like a texting flirtation to have that person find out about it. You're doing it because that's something that you have for yourself, that you're doing for yourself and something that you'd never want them to find out about

because you're afraid what will happen if they do. But I don't know though. I know if it was me, I would have gone home, grabbed my laptop, gone to like someplace else, the library, a Starbucks or something. I've been in that position before, and that's exactly what I do. I make myself scarce in those situations. So I'm not sure why she thought he would let her conduct her interview in peace.

It doesn't seem that that was historically the way he would have behaved in times of great anger. Yeah, I think you're right. I think she definitely could have chosen a different option, especially considering what had happened leading up to it with the retail stores and the parking lot. And just as a precaution, when you know you're going to be on the phone with someone who you're trying to convince to hire you, just play it safe and go somewhere so there's no risk of him interrupting your interview uh but you know hindsight's always 20 20 maybe she thought i can go there i can do it and then i can leave unfortunately for her that wasn't the case yeah not she had to leave her house like oh

she was the one who should have left but just like if you want to get this done and you don't want to deal with the fallout of whatever the hell because because that dude followed her to stores. That's crazy, man. That's like some crazy behavior that has no logic or sanity to it. He's out of his mind at this point, so nothing's going to get done while he's like that. But after she finished her interview, Danielle claimed that she kind of sat there for a little bit. She thought about everything that had happened so far that day, And she was also worried about her kids because she knew they were going to need dinner. And her son Sawyer apparently had like an event or something later that evening. So she called Michael to see if he was ready to be calm and talk, but he wasn't. She claims she asked him if he could get the kids dinner and he told her no. And he told her to get

her ass home to take care of it. Danielle texted her kids and asked them what they wanted for dinner. One of them wanted Chick-fil-A. One of them wanted pizza. She ended up picking up a pizza. When she got home with the pizza, she went into the house and saw that the only person home was her daughter, Jaden. And the two of them were in the kitchen, standing at the counter, eating the pizza. And then Michael and Sawyer returned home. The kids went to their rooms and Michael went directly to the refrigerator. He pulled out a bottle of vodka and he poured himself a drink, all the while being belligerent and staring at her angrily, making comments about like her boyfriend and Caesar and jujitsu and this, this and that. At some point during this,

Sawyer walked into the room. He's their son. And Danielle decided it would be best to leave so that things didn't escalate while the kids were home. So she went to Publix and she just started like walking around. But then she saw a text from her son, Sawyer, that made her decide she should go home. He says, Mom, they're yelling. They're cursing. Dad's drunk. I'm scared. What effect does this have on you? I'm worried. I'm thinking, oh no. I don't know if I should go home, but now I'm worried about the kids. So, and I'm worried about Jaden because I'm assuming he's referring to her.

You're assuming that your son is referring to your daughter? Yes. And your husband? Yes. Before I go home, Jaden calls me, and she's upset, and she said she needs to get out of there. So I'm listening to her as I'm walking out, and I said I'm on my way home then. And we hang up. When I get to a red light, I'm texting her about the situation, just apologizing about what's going on. And then I arrive at the house. When you arrive at the house, what's the situation as you find it? I just go into the front door and I don't see anyone. And so I cautiously slip into the master bedroom

and I don't want Mike to see me because I'm afraid that if he does, he'll still be angry. And so I text my daughter and say, are you in your room? And she responds. Are you interacting with Michael at all? No. Do you observe or do you hear him or are you aware of him in the home? Yes.

What's he doing that you're aware of? At that point, I can hear him he's yelling with my daughter and then he actually I guess he realizes I'm in the house and comes over to the master bedroom what's the first sight that you have of Michael as he comes to you charging at me he's red he looks hyper and I looks hyper. And he looks buzzed. When you say buzzed, what do you mean? He had been drinking. And had you observed him drinking before you had left previously?

Yes. What was he drinking? Vodka. So when you see him and he approaches you, is he saying anything? Yes. What's that? you is he saying anything yes what's up he's like oh there you are what do you what are you doing on your phone and he he tries to grab for the phone he doesn't get it and then he grabs me and he slams me up against the wall where is

this in our master bedroom so I immediately run into the bathroom and what do you run to the bathroom at that point he's putting his hands on me and he's scaring me and I can tell he's drunk and he's amped up and he's just screaming in my face he's basically threatening me and so I ran into the bathroom are you scared at that point of further physical attacks against you? Yeah, definitely. When you go in the bathroom, what happens next? I lock the door. Okay. So we're starting to get into it. Before we do, just a little thing that I, coming from a guy here, and I'm sure women can attest to this too, something you said before we played that clip about Michael, which I think is a playbook that should be followed by,

by everybody, man or woman. When you have a guy more upset and more focused on the person that you're communicating with, as opposed to what you may have done wrong, that is the sign of someone who is possessive, insecure, jealous, all those things. Because if you really just look at it from a binary perspective, ones and zeros, if he's going to be mad at anyone, it should be Danielle. Because, you know, for the sake of the argument here, they're still married. They're living together. Should she be talking to another man? No, no.

And if you take away all the context behind it, like just looking at the situation, you know, two wrongs don't make a right the context behind it, like just looking at the situation, you know, two wrongs don't make a right. She shouldn't be doing it. So does he have the right to be upset with her for her actions? Sure. Fine. We'll go with that. But we've seen it multiple times now, as you're laying out the story, Stephanie, where he's more focused on Caesar, you know, his nationality, what he does for a living, the jujitsu, you've mentioned it numerous times. He's more focused on this other man than he is Danielle, which, which says to me, this is a guy who's very insecure and more worried about how he stacks up against Caesar as opposed to what Danielle did right or what Danielle did wrong. So the reason I bring that up and why it's important as we, for us to talk about it is there may be someone out there right now listening to this who's dealing with something like that and understand that this is something

deeper than a relationship issue. This is a personality trait. This is a character flaw. This is not something you can fix. This is something that he or she needs to fix on their own. So if people, if you get in arguments like this, where they're more focused on who you were talking to, or even just if it's not something like this, but just maybe who you were looking at in a bar or whatever, and they're more focused on the person you glanced at in the bar, then the glancing itself, I'm not saying it's the case for everyone, but maybe it's something that you should keep an eye on going forward because it may be an indication of a bigger, deeper issue. So I just wanted to bring it up. I didn't want to skate over it. I think it's something that's important for everybody to know as you guys are in your relationships or

getting into new relationships with other people. If you want to avoid a situation down the road like this, there may be things that you can pick up that are more subtle in the beginning to help you avoid getting into a romantic situation with someone who may have this character trait because it's not a good trait to have. Yeah, I agree completely. And unfortunately, that is something that is we already know Michael was like, oh, I'm insecure about, you know, he didn't say insecure because they also never want to admit that they're insecure, right? They never want to say, I'm jealous. Oh, you're jealous. I'm not jealous. It's this, this and this. They never say they're jealous. They never say they're insecure, right? They never would say, I'm jealous. Oh, you're jealous. I'm not jealous. It's this, this, and this. They never say they're jealous. They never say they're insecure, but that's exactly what's happening. But he already said, oh, I feel weird that I'm

resentful of you because you're younger and I have to do all of this to handle my ED and handle my low testosterone and you're younger, so I resent you for that. So yeah, he's going to focus on anything, anyone who might be like his perceived arrival in these situations. And it's weird. And it really takes a lot of therapy when somebody is that badly, when somebody has that low self-worth, it's not anything you can do. And no matter how much you tell them that you love them, or they're the only one, it will not do anything. They will continue to feel that way. I agree. So Danielle says at this point, she runs into the bathroom and the bathroom is connected to the master bedroom. She goes in, she locks the door, but Michael continued to pursue her. He was banging on the door and eventually he broke it down. Now, during the trial, they did show pictures of the broken bathroom door that

Michael had allegedly kicked down on the evening of January 10th. We don't ever see them full screen, but you can see that little monitor that's in front of Danielle when she's on the witness stand and you can see they're broken. I did screenshot it. And if it's like good enough quality, I'll give it to John to insert. But I wanted to show those pictures or at least tell you that I saw them because this is important. It means the bathroom door is broken on the like a little like area, like a little room where the toilet is. And then there's another door and like my master bathroom has that. But there's no lock on that little toilet door bathroom as far as my bathroom is concerned. But she says she was locked inside of that area.

And at this point, she began to text her daughter, Jaden. Now, Danielle claims she told Jaden that she needed to get out of there because Michael was getting violent, and she told Jaden that she could leave with her since Jaden had previously expressed a desire to leave the house. 8.09 p.m. From user JD, not anymore. He just came in. 8.09 p.m. From user Danielle, stay in your room. Do not engage. Three exclamation points. 8.20 p.m.

From user JD, he's in my room. 8.20 p.m. From user Danielle, I think I'm going to leave. You can come with me. 8.23 p.m. From user JD, where are you going? What about Sawyer? 8 23 p.m. From user Danielle. I need to get out of here. He's being violent 8 23 p.m From user JD. I love you so much mom. Are you okay? 8 23 p.m

From user Danielle. I think soy will be be okay but I can take him too I just need to get him away so I can go 8 24 p.m. from user JD where are we going 8 25 p.m. from user JD do you want me to pack a bag for Sawyer 8 25 p.m. from user Danielle IDK maybe to get dessert or something I think he will pass out at some point 8 26 pm from user JD I flushed a lot. 8.27 p.m. From user JD, there is only a little bit left now. 8.27 p.m. Okay, so I mean, that's very damning towards Michael, obviously. I mean, I don't even really have to weigh in too much there.

It's a conversation between mother and daughter, not knowing that it's eventually going to be seen or heard by a jury. Clearly Michael's drunk and he's scaring them to the point where they're all, they're developing a plan via text to escape the home. It's terrible to think that that's the conditions they were under, but for the sake of what we're talking about, very damning to the idea that Danielle was instigating and she was trying to remove herself from the situation. She was saying he was being violent. She was telling her daughter not to engage. So I don't think at this point Danielle knows she's going to kill Michael. So she's just talking to her daughter.

And this is the conversation they're having. And I'm sure this is going to go a long way with the jury. Yeah. This is a conversation between Danielle and Jaden and all the other conversations that she was saying she was having when she was at Publix and things. Those are all documented as well. So these things definitely did happen. And we're going to hear some more of those. And it's just it's heartbreaking.

It's heartbreaking. So we'll get into more of those conversations between Danielle and her kids. But Danielle claims that while she's locked in the little bathroom area and Michael still trying to get her and still raging at her, Jaden came in to distract Michael so he would stop banging on the door. Danielle could hear the two of them arguing, but then Michael left the room. Now, the daughter, Jaden, would later testify about that evening. And she said that when her father had come home, he was acting distant. He wasn't talkative, but she could sense that there was tension between her parents. When she intervened in the master bedroom, she remembered this, saying, quote, At one point, they were arguing, and I got in between them, and I grabbed the bottle of liquor

he was drinking and threw it in the dumpster outside, end quote. As per Jaden's text to her mother earlier, Jaden had already dumped some of Michael's vodka down the toilet. As this was happening, Danielle snuck out of the bathroom, she got into her car, and got the car running, waiting for Jaden to come out. Danielle then drove Jaden to Jaden's friend's house, and then she went and sat on a side street in her car while she texted with both her daughter and son. She said she was waiting for Michael to pass out, because she knew he'd been drinking, and a conversation between the two of them wasn't going to be possible while he was drinking and angry. So she told her son Sawyer to let her know when Michael passed out so that she could sneak back inside her own house. And Danielle told him to turn off

all the lights around the house and open the garage so that she could get in. User Danielle, turn off lights around house and brush. 9.22 p.m. User Soyboy, okay. 9.22 p.m. User Danielle, I just dropped Jade at Currens. 9.23 p.m. User Soyboy, okay. 9.23 p.m. User Danielle, I'm sitting in Alabama in the car. 9.23 p.m. User Soyboy, I'm going to go do it. 9.23 p.m. User Danielle, on. 9.23 p.m. User Danielle, okay.

9.23 p.m. User Soyboy, the TV is on, though. 9.23 p.m. User Soyboy. The TV is on, though. 9.23 p.m. User Soyboy. I'ma keep it on. 9.23 p.m. User Soyboy. Just in case.

9.23 p.m. User Danielle. It's okay. Yeah. 9.24 p.m. User Danielle. You shouldn't sleep by me in case he gets up, okay? 9.24 p.m. User Danielle, you shouldn't sleep by me in case he gets up, okay? 924 p.m. User Danielle, I will go upstairs when I come in and we be very quiet. Sorry about all this mess. 925 p.m.

User Soyboy, okay. User Soyboy, I'ma go do the lights. 926 p.m. User Soyboy, and wind down, 9.26 p.m. User Danielle, yeah, okay, 9.26 p.m. User Soyboy, I can't turn off, 9.27 p.m. User Soyboy, the front light because he's there, 9.27 p.m. Soyboy, snoring, 9.27 p.m. Soyboy. Snoring. 9.27 p.m. Soyboy. He will notice. 9.28 p.m. Soyboy. Going in bed now. See ya. 9.28 p.m. User Danielle. All right. I'll wait a bit. Can you open garage so I come in that way? Please. Sorry, babe. 9.29 p.m. Soy boy.

I'll try. 9.30 p.m. Soy boy. He might notice. 9.30 p.m. Soy boy. Did it. 9.31 p.m.

Soy boy. Leo barked like crazy. 9.31 p.m. Soy boy. He's up. 932PM. User Danielle. THXOH. 932PM. Soyboy, he heard. 932PM. Soyboy, it's okay. 932m. Soyboy, I think he's falling back. 9.32 p.m. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll discuss. So obviously these messages are hard to hear, to imagine what both Sawyer and Jaden are going through at this point, both feeling like they had to take care of their mother as well as tiptoe around their father. And, you know, that's the impression I got from both of their text message exchanges as if they were kind of like used to this, that this was kind of something that were trying to get across the bridge without waking up the troll. You know, it's tragic to hear.

And this may be an unpopular opinion. This may be a hot take. But I believe that Danielle was a victim of domestic abuse, consistent domestic abuse. And I think that it was wrong of her to enlist her children's help in this way, regardless of what was happening to her. As an adult in this situation, you can't always depend on the other adults in the situation to handle themselves properly, but you do have the opportunity always to handle yourself properly. And whatever's going on in your marriage, you have to make sure it doesn't touch your kids. And when it starts to touch your kids, if what's happening to you isn't enough to get out, when it starts to touch your kids, that's when it needs to be a real priority to do something.

Like she should have taken both of them out of that house and left. And that was the end of it. It shouldn't have been a coming back, leaving, coming back, dropping Jaden off here, you know, packing Sawyer a bag, but he's still there and he's like creeping around the house trying to unlock doors for her so she can get in. And that poor kid's terrified. He's like, hold on. He's waking up. Hold on. He's falling back asleep. Hold on. He's going to hear. That's like traumatic for kids, man. That's some traumatic shit and it shouldn't have happened. And in this situation with what's happening with Jaden and Sawyer, I feel that Danielle is as much to blame as Michael is. And that doesn't mean what happened to her is any less tragic or you know maybe even

what happened to michael is any less tragic but this cannot happen this can't not with the kids i didn't think of it that way i don't really have i don't necessarily agree with you but i don't have i don't disagree with you either i wasn't expecting that for your take. So I know I just, I'll just, I know I'm going to get torn apart. I bet you I'll get torn apart. Why, why do you, why don't you agree? I didn't, I didn't listen to the conversation and feel like she was like specifically enlisting his help to like, just, she just wanted him to open the garage door. But now that you're saying it that way, it's changing my opinion.

Maybe slightly. I can see how, I definitely think there'll be people that agree with you the way you framed it. I think there's going to be people that agree with you. I'm also pulling on like my own experience. I had some things as a child and I've talked to you guys about it before, but I don't think anyone's ever asked me to do anything, but there were things I did. Like when, when, uh, Jaden was talking about emptying the alcohol in the toilet, I can't tell you how many times I've done that. But I wasn't asked to do it. I just did it secretly without anybody knowing.

Yeah, but did it leave like a positive impact on you that you felt you had to do that? Well, I mean, I guess how it's positive. Yeah. You had to save the adults from themselves, you know, like was this a super good time in your life, a great memory that you hold? Probably not. No, I mean, it's the reason I became a cop. from themselves? Was this a super good time in your life, a great memory that you hold? Probably not. No, I mean, it's the reason I became a cop, so you can look at it that way, but I get what you're saying. It wasn't a fun time. It wasn't a fun memory. I feel like Danielle might've been

desperate and just looking for trying to do the right thing maybe. And in hindsight, wasn't the best decision to bring Sawyer into it, but what other options did she have? I do agree with you that she could have just taken Sawyer with her and that would have been the end of it. So I will concede that point, but- Yeah, she could have said, come out here. Come out here. Who cares if the dog Leo barks?

Who cares if that asshole passed out drunk on the couch wakes up? Come out here. We're leaving. We're taking off. We're not going to stay here tonight. And we're not going to tiptoe around our own house because we're afraid the ogre under the bridge is going to wake up. It's ludicrous. Well, maybe she felt like it would escalate things if he felt like she was taking his kids. I don't know. I'm really interested to hear what you guys have to say. I'm really interested to hear what everyone has to say out there. That is a hot take. You have to do everything in your power to protect your kids. They have a very short time of childhood and they shouldn't have to feel that they have

to like intercede on their mother's behalf when they're like 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. They need to worry about themselves and their like normal kid stuff. They cannot be a part of this. This is traumatic for them because I had that same kind of stuff growing up and constantly feeling like worried about my mother. And, you know, like I had to take care of her and like I had to check on her. And it's not good. It's not mentally or emotionally good for a child when you're the one that's supposed to be taken care of. So that's my that's my opinion.

And I don't give a shit if it makes somebody mad because I'm allowed to have that. Well, just remember guys, it's Stephanie's opinion. She came up with it. She wants the credit for these things. So let's give her some credit. Well, I mean, that's my personal experience. I've had personal experiences being a victim of domestic abuse, as well as being a child who witnessed domestic abuse. So I think I have the right right now to stand up and say, in my opinion, I would have preferred not to have been either. And if y'all don't agree with me, then that's your own opinion.

And I respect it. But Michael's daughter, Jaden, did say that she'd had a conversation with her father that Thursday night before leaving the house to go to her friend's house. She said, quote, it was very rare for me to see him get angry or upset. That night he told me he was sorry that he loved me and he wished I hadn't seen him like that. The next day I went to school. Those were the last words we ever exchanged. I didn't answer him then, end quote. So, I mean, according to Jaden, this isn't super common for Michael to be behaving this way. Although I did get the impression from Sawyer's text messages that he wasn't super shocked to be having to do all this. And it wasn't like, oh my God, what's

happening? Like, I'm so worried. He was just like, okay, I'll go do this, you know, sneak in. So I'm not sure what to believe in this situation. Yeah, I'm with you. It's tough. It's tough when we're focusing on something so specific and there's years and years of good times and bad times in these relationships where we just truly don't know. We weren't present in the household. We can speculate.

We can pick apart what we do have, but it's tough to really know the truth because we weren't there. Yeah. So, I mean, Danielle, finally, Michael passed out drunk and Danielle snuck into the house while he was asleep on the couch. She didn't go into the master bedroom. She went upstairs into the loft area and she went to sleep. Now, there were no further interactions between Michael and Danielle that night. The next morning, which was Friday, January 11th, 2019, Danielle claims from the loft she could hear Michael raging around the house looking for her, asking Sawyer where his mother was. So he went to sleep pissed and he woke up pissed. Michael finally located Danielle in the loft. He was already dressed for work and

he told her that he had to leave, but he was not done with her yet, according to Danielle. That's what he said. Throughout that morning and afternoon, Michael texted Danielle asking her, like, are you with your boyfriend? Are you with Caesar? What are you guys doing? You know, belligerent, things like that. She went out to do some errands. She also picked her daughter Jaden up from school and when she got back to the house Michael was home and the verbal abuse continued. When you arrive home with your daughter is anyone at the house? Yes. Who? The cleaning ladies and my husband. What happens when you get home?

Walk in the front door my husband's sitting on the white couch in the front room and he says you better have a good excuse or lie as to where you've been what do you take that to be I'm a sarcastic snide comment how does that make you feel hearing this comment from him that we're still not getting to a point where we can speak civilly and was this comment with your daughter around or is she elsewhere at this point? She was there. What happens next? I said I'm not going to do this again today, especially with the cleaning ladies here and Jade, so I left.

Did you come back to the home at some point? Yes. When you arrived back at the home, what's the scene? My husband's not there. My daughter had texted me and asked me if she could go to her friend's house told her she could go and she said by the way dad's not home so i got the dog and went home at that point okay when you arrive home is anybody there he's not there nobody's um nobody's there okay so what are you doing then my son comes home and what's the the plan for the night for your son? He has a football game at 8 o'clock. And is

your husband a coach on the team? He's one of them, yes. So your son has arrived home. What are you doing at that point? I'm starting to get some things ready for his uniform, looking for his uniform and things. And then I had been out all day, so I hadn't showered, so I decided to take a shower at that point. When you're in the shower, does anything occur? Yes. My husband comes into the house and into the bathroom. What occurs at that point?

He pulls out his phone and he tells me, I don't know if he's actually doing it, that he's videotaping me, or recording me rather. And he says, I'm going to send this to you. Let me get one last look at you. I'm going to send this to your boyfriend. And he starts saying a lot of vulgar comments. Do you remember what he's saying? Yes. And how did that affect you hearing what he had to say? Distressed. Afraid, distressed, worried, nervous.

What was he saying? He just started, he was saying vulgar things. I hope he ups the shit out of you and beats your face in and then I'm going to beat both your faces in. How about that? Things like that. He's going to send in the pictures. So keep in mind, this is January 11th. This is the evening that Michael Redlich will be stabbed and die.

And Danielle says that during this day after, you know, she was in the shower and he did this tape recording thing, he was threatening her. He was threatening her to send her back where he found her. He was going to take the kids in the house and leave her penniless and she had better not show up at their son's football game or he was going to tell everyone there what a whore and a bitch she was. Now, this continued until Michael and Sawyer were getting ready to leave for Sawyer's football game. Danielle claims that at this point, Michael took her cell phone again and he walked outside with it and she followed him. He told her he was going to take it and throw it in a lake. And so she was desperate to get her phone back.

So she returned into the house. She grabbed some eggs and began throwing them at Michael's car. Now, Michael began advancing on her, very angry, and Danielle felt that he was going to hit her at that point, but then Sawyer walked out ready to go to the football game, and Michael and Sawyer left. This was around 7 p.m. Danielle was debating on whether or not she should go to the game, but shortly after, she received permission from Michael via text to attend, so she drove separately to Sawyer's football game. She felt that maybe this text from Michael meant that there was hope, and he was calming down enough to allow them to talk.

At the game that night, a man named Peter Dybul saw both Danielle and Michael. When Danielle arrived, she sat with Peter and his wife while Michael was coaching the football game, and Peter testified that Danielle was not her usual animated self. She was more quiet than she usually was and possibly distracted, and she informed him that she'd taken some NyQuil earlier. After the game, Peter and Michael greeted each other as they always did. They shook hands and did what he called the man hug, but Peter noticed that Michael was also not his normal self. Michael was usually very present. He would make eye contact with the people he was speaking to, but that evening he seemed very distracted as if he wanted to leave the game as soon as possible.

Another woman, Marsha Inglis, also testified during the trial, and she had known the Red Licks for seven years, and her son Ryan played football with Sawyer. Marsha said Danielle was very agitated and upset that evening, and Sawyer left with Marsha and Ryan after the game because he was going to be spending the night at Ryan's house. So what's important to know is that neither Sawyer nor Jaden would be home that night, as they were both having sleepovers with friends. Now, when Jaden testified at the trial, she said, quote, I received a text from my mom saying that she was dealing with something here and that it was-standing plans to be out of the house that evening, but according to Jaden's own testimony, it had been her mother who suggested that she would not come home on Friday nights. It wasn't a pre-planned sleepover.

So this puts Michael and Danielle Redlich alone together in their home after almost two days of nonstop and unresolved tension between them. The prosecution would claim that Danielle planned this, that she knew she was going to kill her husband that night, and that's why she went home, and that's why she made sure no one else would be there. I'm going to fast forward a bit because the version of events that Danielle gave in court is a version we're going to sort of consider her final story, but there were other stories beforehand. So let's get right to the part where Danielle calls 911. Not on the evening of January 11th when Michael Redlich actually died, but the following day. Because he's been, I just, he's stiff and he just wondered he might have had a heart attack, I don't know. From the first few seconds after she dialed 911, Danielle Redlich seemed uncertain of the story she was going to stick to. After her husband Michael Redlich's murder, she's now being charged with.

Okay, did you just find him? No, actually. It happened last night. Not calling police until the next morning. We had altercations and they stabbed themselves and I ran into the bathroom and when out, I tried to help him, and I saw he was lying in blood. And what time do you think you all had this altercation and he stabbed himself? I think it started around 10.30. He was actually choking me and trying to suffocate me first. I actually went for the knife and he was screaming,

what are you going to do? What are you going to do? He grabbed it. That's when he did it. He made a motion and I ran out of the room because I'm on probation. I was scared to death. Which is why she told dispatchers she waited 11 hours before calling for help. Police getting there to find, they say, evidence of bleach and blood cleaned up. All right. So listen to that video. A lot to kind of break down there. But first off, did she say she was on probation? Yes, she did. Okay. I'm assuming you know why you're going to fill us in later because that's the first time I'm hearing about a probation. Yes, absolutely. I'm going to talk

about that in a moment. But she was on probation at this point in time. And the reason why she was on probation is sort of related to some of the issues she'd been having. So, and it's going to speak, I mean, I feel like in the first episode of this series, we sort of went over like what her version of events is. And in this episode, we're also going to kind of look at the other side and why she may not be 100% innocent if, you know, that's what you want to believe. Or at least of look at the other side and why she may not be 100% innocent if that's what you want to believe. Or at least we look at both sides of this and see where we fall. Yeah. I want to hear everything before we weigh in because just that sounds not great, but there's so much more to this that we've already discussed that may explain

that behavior. So yeah, I'm going to reserve judgment until then. So Danielle told this 911 dispatcher that her husband was dead. She said she thinks he might have had a heart attack and he stabbed himself. Now, obviously this is confusing to the operator and she tries to get Danielle to clarify, like did Michael die due to a heart attack

or did he stab himself? To which Danielle replied that it was probably a heart attack, which the stabbing had triggered. According to Danielle, once they had their altercation in the kitchen, Michael had grabbed a knife and made a stabbing motion, at which point she'd run away from him and locked herself in the bathroom of the master bedroom. Now remember, the door to the master bathroom has been kicked down. So I'm not sure if she's saying she locked herself into the little toilet area, but the bathroom door is kicked down. So it probably can't lock at this point. While she was in the bathroom, she said Michael came to the closed door and he was yelling at her that he was going to send her to jail. She then heard him moaning, and she was scared, but she finally left the bathroom to go check on Michael, where she found him lying on

the floor of the kitchen, out of it, and surrounded by his own blood. She said she attempted to give him mouth-to-mouth and CPR, but she believed he was already gone, and after some time, she fell asleep on the floor next to him because she was exhausted and terrified. When she woke up next to his dead body the next morning, she called 911 at 9.28 a.m. Now, Danielle claimed that she had not called the police the night before because she was on probation, and she was scared that no one would believe her, and she's referring to January of 2018 when she'd been arrested. On January 26, 2018, Danielle was arrested for battery of an officer or firefighter resisting officer with violence and disorderly intoxication. Apparently, Danielle had been drunk. She'd gotten into a verbal argument with two people at a gas

station. This verbal argument had become physical, and Danielle was listed as the primary aggressor in this argument. And when paramedics were treating Danielle after this altercation, she became more aggressive. She began yelling vulgar comments. She pushed one of the paramedics and attempted to punch him. A police officer attempted to get Danielle to calm down and sit down, and he did this by placing both of his hands on her shoulders so that she would remain seated so the paramedics could continue to treat her wounds. At this point, Danielle stood up and lunged at the police officer, and when another police officer came to help keep her restrained, she attempted to bite his hand. But this was not Danielle's only interaction with law enforcement.

The next month, on February 4, 2018, Michael Redlich called 911 and reported that his wife Danielle was a danger to herself and others. The address. 1231 Temple Drive, Winter Park, Florida. Okay, stay on the line. I'm going to have to transfer this over to Winter Park. Let me talk first when they answer, okay? You better go in your room. Where are your fans? 911, do you need police, fire, or medical? Let's go. I don't want any room.

Please, dance. 911, do you need police, fire, or medical? This is Seminole to transfer for police at 1231 Temple Drive. 30, yes. Yeah, please. Don't hear us. Will you stop? All right.

I will call you back. I will call you back in five minutes. I'll call you back in five minutes. I'll call you back in five minutes. What is going on there? Hello? Yeah, I'm still there. He didn't give me a lot of information. He just said that there was a woman who was a danger to herself. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll discuss that. All right. So we're back. You know, this clip, it was once again, a little hard to hear, but what you can hear is you hear Danielle in the background of this clip. You can't really hear what she's saying, but she seems agitated. Like when he first gets on the phone and they're like, 911, what's your emergency? He's like, yeah, you know, this woman's

a danger to herself and others. And you can hear her in the background yelling no. And, you know, you hear Michael tell her to go into her room a couple of times, but she continues arguing. Very early on in the call, Michael tells the 911 operator that he's going to call back in five minutes after apparently Danielle agreed to calm down. I think I heard him say something like, are you going to stop? And then, you know, he's like, I'll call you back in five minutes. I guess the question would be, did he actually think she was a danger to herself and others? Or is this sort of like a Cindy Anthony, I'm going to call the police to scare you and get you to do what I want you to do kind of situation? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. It sounds like she was, like you said,

agitated in the background. So I think there might be some validity to it. The story that you talked about before the clip is even more interesting to me because it does show a behavior of aggression and some level of violence behavior. So I think that is very important when you consider what we're talking about here up until this point, which I kind of feel like threw a little bit of a curveball at us. I was under the impression that she was pretty docile, kind of even keel most cases, even through her text messages, even from all the video footage we've watched of her. She's very, as we've said numerous times, like monotone doesn't really get too emotional about anything. This, you know, this story that you're talking about here involving these individuals where she was determined to be the primary aggressor and then assaulting the paramedic and then biting the hand. I mean, this is something that, you know, I always say it best predictor of future

behaviors, past behavior. This could be an indicator of what she's capable of. So under the right conditions, although it does appear she might have been drunk, if she's angry enough, she does have the capability of assaulting another. So that is important. And I can see how knowing this information, how there's a group of individuals out there who believe maybe this is what happened that night when the kids weren't home. That when the kids weren't present, she decided to escalate things herself because she didn't have to put on this facade in front of her children anymore. So I could definitely see that side of the coin where if

you're on the side that believes she murdered Michael Redlich, this is a story that you would definitely grab onto and use it as your main foundation for saying, hey, listen, don't take my word for it. Look what she's done to people she doesn't even know. You're going to tell me she's not capable of doing it to Michael Redlich? Of course she is. That's what they would say. Well, I mean, that's alcohol for you too, right? I mean, you can have an anger problem.

Yeah, amen. You can have maybe not super great control over your emotions or you got something boiling under the surface and, you know, add alcohol, it's legitimately adding fuel to the fire. People drink because they think it's going to make them feel better, but it just makes them less likely to control themselves, basically, right? It's an inhibitor. It inhibits you or disinhibits you. It's a disinhibitor. And basically, you know, if you've already got something on your mind, if you already got something brewing, I've seen it a million times with the most simple thing. You go out with your friend, your friend's been cool with you, and all of a sudden your friend's had a couple of drinks and she's like,

why do you hate me? All of a sudden out of nowhere. And you're like, whoa. The truth comes out. It's a truth serum in some ways. And when you have somebody who has maybe a little bit of temper or has a problem controlling their self, it's terrible. It's the worst thing you could do. And a lot of people mentioned in the comments, like, why are Michael and Danielle going to Al-Anon instead of Alcoholics Anonymous? And it's not funny, but it is kind of funny, right? So it looks like both Michael and Danielle probably had a problem with alcohol, both of them. And instead of going to Alcoholics Anonymous, they both went to Al-Anon, which is to complain about the person in your family or somebody close to you who has a problem with alcohol. So they weren't technically working on their own problem with alcohol. They were going to these groups to vent about their spouse's problem with alcohol.

So it shows a lack of self-awareness, I think, on both parts. I agree with that. So Michael calls 911. He's like, I'll call you back. He didn't call back. But obviously, the Winter Park Police Department did respond to the address. And when they got there, Michael Redlich told them that Danielle had been drinking. They'd gotten into an argument, but she was asleep now. So police arrived at the Redlich home at 10.05 a.m. on January 12, 2019. Detective Pamela Ware was first on the scene after the fire department, and she saw Danielle standing in front of the garage wearing black pants and a long-sleeved

black shirt. Detective Ware was informed that Danielle had slit her wrists with a knife and that they were transporting her to the hospital. They also told her that the scene had been secured and there was no one else inside the house besides the victim, Michael Redlich. The police had to wait for a search warrant before entering the house, but when they did, they found Michael laying on the floor on his back with his arms stretched out into a T position, just past the foyer. He did not have a shirt on, but he was wearing jeans, which appeared to be saturated with blood. He was also wearing a belt and socks. Later, the contents of his pockets would be removed, and it was found that his phone, wallet, and keys were

on his person at the time of his death. This is also important, right? Because Danielle will claim that Michael stabbed himself, and then he was sort of like harassing her outside the bathroom door for a while and then he must have like bled to death. But the prosecution would argue, why didn't he call for help? He had his phone in his pocket. it was where he stabbed himself to try to get you in trouble or to try to mess with you, why wouldn't he have called somebody to come and help him once he realized that that wasn't going to work and he was going to bleed out? I think that's a fair assessment. I'm not, without going too far, I'm having a hard time believing he stabbed himself to begin with, but that if he did to what you just said, yeah, 100%. Yeah, super valid question, I think. Even if it had been her stabbing him, with the amount of time that she claims he was up and about walking around and threatening her, you would hope he would have called police at some point. But there was also a pile of towels near his head. There was a pile of towels near the right side of his body and his right foot. And the police also noticed what appeared to be circular marks in the blood

on the floor that signaled to them someone had tried to clean up the blood. And there was quite a large trail of blood leading from the master bedroom to Michael's body. And that trail of blood also has those swirl marks in it. Detective Ware saw a large serrated kitchen knife with blood on it located in the entryway to the kitchen. So the way this house is arranged is it's like you come in, there's like a foyer area, and then there's a living room to the right. And then there's like the kitchen sort of in front of you. And there's a little entryway between the living room and the kitchen. And that's where the knife was found. There was also blood spatter about shoulder height on the right side of the entry wall

and a blood smear on the left side. At the foot of the stairs, they found a mop and a mop bucket with pink water inside of it, as well as another pile of blood-stained towels, and in that pile of towels, Michael's shirt would later be found, and this was the shirt he'd been wearing at the time he was stabbed, as there was a matching tear in the shirt that was consistent with a stab wound located on Michael's shoulder. All of this, along with the strong smell of bleach and cleaning products, indicated to police that the crime scene had been tampered with, and someone had attempted to clean it up. There was also three kitchen knives in the sink, all with blood on them and some blood on the kitchen counter of the sink area. In the living room, Detective Ware found some bloody footprints

near the couch and near Michael's body. The trail of blood that was seen by law enforcement, it led from the body to the master bathroom, which is once again located off the kitchen. Remember, we said everything was pretty much on the first floor and it was just that loft area on the second floor. The master bedroom is located off the kitchen. And the door to the master bathroom was all the way open. There was only one drop of blood on that door, but there was blood located on the baseboards inside the bathroom door and blood located on the baseboards of the master bedroom near the closets. Police also found a pair of blood-stained women's white and black plaid pants, which had been folded. The forensics team, who later showed up to process the scene, also mentioned the smell of cleaning products

and claimed that there was so much blood everywhere, they had to be very careful while taking photos so that they wouldn't step in it. You always want to say suspected blood because I don't have a test kit there to determine. In this case, there was also such a large amount. And with the, you know, what I was showing in that picture was it was very watered down where it appeared to have been cleaned up. So some of it might have been chemical. So that's why I like to say suspected blood or apparent. I am, because of the coverage, I am having to be somewhat strategic on where I'm standing.

So I'm looking out for any points of impact as to not disturb them. Where it's possible not standing in obvious areas of light. Exactly, yes. Tough to do in this house. Very much so. At this point, have you smelled anything that sort of is catching your attention? So immediately when I walked in, there was a very clean smell not like a house that just smells nice it was a chemical like fabuloso or it had a like a lavender smell something it was just a

cleaner kind of smell but yes I did it was very apparent on two things specifically were the apparent blood smear up on the wall and the kitchen knife that also had red brown stains on it. So this is going to be the doorway here facing out to the staircase. So it is Jaden's room. So that appeared to me to be a pile of um towels with reddish pinkish uh stains on them and they were damp and what are you observing as you move towards the master bedroom or move into the master bedroom uh the sweeping uh red brown stains that are going to what uh we will see as the bathroom area again as i explained where I observe some things and keep mental notes of it, knowing that there were towels and they appeared to be somewhat wet,

shower area is wet. So I was looking to see if the shower had water on the floor as if it had been somewhat recently used. So that was what I was attempting to document to show that there was water on the tile floor in the shower. So this is back at the front door with them shut. I had walked in and immediately started taking my overall photos and did not get close enough to see that there was some blood underneath the handles until we were escorting the medical examiner's office out when I noticed the drip marks down the underneath the handle. We're going to see some photographs that zoom in on those drip marks. Yes. And that's what we see here. Photograph 3281. Yes, that is correct. So if you were a police officer and you arrived at this crime scene, the way it was documented by the CSI team, what would you think had happened there?

What would you look and see and think, oh, this is how it went down? I mean, just preliminary guess, educated guess, just looking at the photos. And I'm looking at them. I'm watching the video with you guys, but I'm watching it on my phone because i don't want to mess up the internet connection we have here as we're recording uh it's kind of tough on my phone but it just off the top of my head it does look like whatever happened obviously he ended up in in the kitchen area you're saying on the in a t-shape right there is that right around that area it's kind of like between the kitchen and the living room sort of like right yeah but it looks like whatever

happened probably initially happened near the bathroom you know maybe some similar type of attack where he was he was stabbed there because you also said that he was stabbed one time in the shoulder correct it was sort of like the the armpit shoulder area yeah Yeah. Okay. So my guess would be that he was struck, he was stabbed, he realized he was stabbed and we haven't got into the autopsy yet, but my guess would be that it probably struck an artery or punctured his heart. I mean, if it's under the armpit, I've seen people where they're shot or stabbed in that area and it severs a major artery or it severs something connected to the heart and they bleed out very quickly.

So that's probably what happened. And so he was probably dead pretty quickly where as soon as he was stabbed, he only had a few minutes before he lost enough blood and fell to the ground in that T-shaped formation. I would also say, obviously, the aftermath is pretty clear cut. It happens, whatever happens. Danielle does her best to clean up the area. It's very hard to do, but she tried her best, but you could still see in the photos leading to the bathroom and the master bedroom, there's still visibly, clearly a lot of blood. So it almost seems like she was considering cleaning everything up. And when she realized she wasn't going to be

able to do that, she decided to go a different route. As far as the blood on the door, that's interesting to me, but that could just be blood from her. She might've slid her wrists inside. And as she's going out, I don't want to be too graphic here, but it's not like the movies, sometimes sprays, things like that, and drips. And those actually look like three or four droplets that streaked. Obviously, it was a decent amount of blood that dripped down. So that could have just been her going to the doorknob, opening the handle and a couple of blood droplets getting on the door. It doesn't seem like there was an attack anywhere else in the house other than the master bedroom.

And then maybe something in the kitchen. But it seems like more so he was trying to get away or he had realized he was injured significantly and was just going to the kitchen maybe to grab a towel. Who knows? But it seems like whatever happened probably happened right outside the bathroom door or inside the bathroom. So this is very interesting that you would say that. First of all, spot on with the front door. Spot on. It is the

wrist according to the blood spatter you know specialist who we're going to get into more detail with uh in the final episode uh yes but according to danielle the attack would have happened in or the stabbing himself initially right would have happened in the kitchen area and that trail was from him going and like banging on her bathroom door and trying to get her to come out and things like that. But, yeah, it's it's it's a tough it's a tough kind of crime scene to process. And if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see in the clip when the CSI tech is explaining like, oh, you know, this is from where the blood like appeared to have been cleaned up. Danielle seems like really put out by it. You know, she's like making a face and it's like. Yeah. She's shaking her head a little bit.

I'm not sure what she's doing that for because I, it doesn't even seem like she tried to hide the fact that she tried to clean it up after, you know, there's like mops and towels and circular patterns, a lot of cleaning products. Like you didn't, you didn't clean it up very well. And you're so sweet. Cause you're like, she did her best. Well, I think she abandoned it. And I think that is interesting that she was shaking her head because I think that originally she was probably planning on trying to clean it up so there was no indication of anything. But I think when she realized there's no way to cover this up, there's no way to justify it. There's blood everywhere. It's in the tile grout. I mean, it's going to look even worse. And she went a different route. Yeah. But what would she

do with the body then? What is she going to hide the body? Is she going to clean up the whole- Maybe she was going to say it was a robbery gone wrong. I have no clue. I have no clue. But I mean, the fact that you could see he was stabbed in the bathroom and why would he have been stabbed in the bathroom? It wasn't an attack where somebody broke in and attacked him before stealing something. Maybe she was going to stage it to look like a robbery. Who knows? But clearly she realized just from the photos we saw, it wasn't going to work. And as far as you guys watching, there's something, some of you may know this, some of you may not, but you can look for a low velocity blood spatter and high velocity blood spatter. That's kind of where I'm going with

this. You'll see that there may be some cast off in the house where it's usually high velocity blood spatter. You'll see a tail on the blood droplets, which suggests that it's hitting the wall at a high rate of speed, leaving that tail behind. Whereas with the door, you see these streaks, but it looks like droplets. So like low velocity blood spatter, we did it with OJ where you'll see droplets on the floor. They're circular in shape and there's not really any tail to them. So that means it was straight down to the ground. It's usually a little bigger in size, the droplet itself, because it's just a small droplet that's hitting the ground at a low rate of speed where with high velocity blood spatter, just like if you took water or

anything like that and sprayed it onto the wall, if it's traveling at a low rate of speed, where with high velocity blood spatter, just like if you took water or anything like that and sprayed it onto the wall, if it's traveling at a higher rate of speed, it's going to leave a trail of where it hits and where it ultimately ends. So if you're looking back at those photos with that understanding, you can kind of yourself interpret certain areas where blood is found as far as what it might represent. And it's something that we used all the time. So if you're fascinated by that, that is something to kind of look at when you're looking at the blood. Don't just look at it for being blood. Look at the shape and the pattern of what you see, which may tell a story. So Michael Redlich had some injuries to his upper lip that the medical examiner, Dr. Sarah Zolvinich, believed had been made with a sharp instrument. She called it like an abraded contusion, so that usually means

more like a rubbing and scraping rather than anything else. There was also faint contusions and bruises on the left side of his chest where the main injury was also found, and that was a stab wound which was located near his left armpit. The knife had caught a major vein just under the armpit as well as pierced Michael's lung, and according to Dr. Zolvenich, Michael would have bled out from this wound within five to six minutes. There were also some contusions and bruises on Michael's left arm and wrist, which the medical examiner believed could have been defensive wounds. Dr. Sarah Zolvenich would also testify that in her opinion, there was no way

Michael could have done this to himself, and there was no evidence that Michael had experienced a heart attack of any kind. There was also no bruising to Michael's chest, which would commonly be observed when CPR is performed. Yeah, so pretty much what we thought, right? You know, going into it, it only took one strike, but it got him in the right spot. And it was, there was no way he was going to survive that all the other stuff about him possibly stabbing himself. Just knowing what I knew. I mean, it's not a very common thing where you're to prove your point, you're going to stab yourself and under the armpit, no less, you know, it's like, it just, if it doesn't sound right, it probably is not right. And that's clearly what happened

here. And I think almost immediately after he was struck, he realized the trouble he was in. Because it would have been, to put it lightly, it would have been very obvious. It would have been a lot of blood. There wasn't even enough time for him to call the police, right? From the time that he was stabbed to when he bled out and died, he couldn't even call the police. Well, he also punctured his lung. Yeah. Also punctured. He's in complete shock at that point. And he's going for the kitchen,

maybe who knows for a towel, for supplies, something. I don't know if it was first aid kit out there, but he knew he was in a lot of trouble instantly. As far as the contusions and the bruising, this is something where I get that the medical examiner can say like maybe it was defensive wounds. That may be true. We know now from what you've told us that Danielle is not completely against violence. She has been known to strike people. And I do think that their relationship was very toxic and there might've been some back and forth as far as the physicality is concerned. But we have evidence to suggest just the night before where he kind of cornered her in this bathroom doing the same thing. The difference was the kids were there. So they're both kind of putting on a front to a

certain degree because I think the natural parental instinct is to have the kids side with you. So you're always willing to mask what you really want to do slightly a little bit more because you want the kids to empathize with you and not the other person. So with the kids not being in the home, their true selves are both coming out. And I guess it comes down to, do you believe that Michael was just completely unaware it was going to happen? And she just attacked him out of nowhere and stabbed him and said, you're not taking the kids from me. Or do you believe that Michael, who would be considered the primary aggressor in many ways because of his size,

his ability to overpower her very easily. Some of the history we have from the kids, from previous experiences, the voicemails that maybe he cornered her, maybe got physical with her. They might've got physical with each other. And when she realized that it could get worse, she had a knife in her possession and she used it because that's the other question we got to talk about. And maybe you're going to get there. So if I'm stealing your steam, pull me back. But I will say if it started in the bathroom and she went into it, not thinking this was going to escalate, well, where'd the knife come from? So that's one thing I'm asking myself. Did she go into the bathroom with the knife?

How did it get there? And I think that's a big, big question because that could suggest some form of premeditation. So here's the thing. Remember when I said it doesn't make any sense? Why would she even clean it up? Like, what are you going to do with the body? It's not like you can hide the body. You can't pretend nothing happened. So why are you even attempting to clean it up? Well, the prosecution believes that she attempted

to clean it up like that so that it would be impossible to tell where this altercation had started, what happened, what Michael's movements were after, you know, he was stabbed because, you know, it pretty much was all the blood patterns on the floor were swirled. I mean, the whole thing all the way. Yeah, you could see in those pictures, even the blood trail going to the master bathroom, it was all swirled. So she didn't technically like try to clean it up. She just tried to disrupt the bloodstain patterns and things so that it wouldn't really be easy to figure out what had happened in that house because we don't really know. She says it started in the kitchen. You're saying you think it looks like it started in the bathroom due to the blood trail. I would tend to

agree with you, right? Because he gets stabbed. He stumbles from the bathroom through the master bedroom out to where he falls and dies because that's where the majority of the blood was found around his body. And she's saying it started in the kitchen. She stabbed him there, or he stabbed himself, because we're still in the first version of the story. And then she ran into the bathroom and hid, and he followed her to the bathroom, stood outside the door, and that's where the blood trail came from.

Nah, he would have already been dead. Yeah, he would have had to have stumbled back to the place where he fell and died. So if nothing had been disturbed- That's interesting. Yeah. If nothing had been disturbed, CSI probably could have figured out or a blood pattern analysis expert could have figured out where it started, where the attack happened. But with this and her attempts to clean it or disrupt it, you can't really tell. Well, that's good because this goes back to what I was just saying. It even makes more sense now.

I didn't know this was coming, but this goes back again to low velocity, high velocity blood patterns and being able to see how much blood was there, what's the droplets look like because the crime scene investigators probably would have been able to determine was this blood from Michael that was dripping out of him, spraying out of him as he was going to the kitchen? Or was this a situation where it happened in the kitchen and then maybe Danielle was going back and forth to the bathroom and as she's doing so with the knives or whatever, cleaning stuff off that she's dropping blood, she's dripping blood as she's doing so? Because there's a difference between the blood that's dripping off a knife

that was just used in a killing and the blood exiting a body after it's been stabbed. A big difference. It's a lot more significant, but to your point with the blood being smeared, it's kind of hard to tell how much blood was there before the cleanup was initiated. But I will say it is possible that there's a scenario where all of this is still true and it did happen in the kitchen. I will, that would have answered my question, which is the incident starts in the kitchen. The knife is accessible. It's grabbed, it's used, and that's it. It happens all right there. Simple explanation, right? Because if, if she takes the knife to the bathroom, I, it it still to me could be

a form of self-defense where she knows what happens to her in certain situations. She's going to go hide in the bathroom, but there's no kids to stop him today. So she's going to bring the knife in there with her as a form of a deterrent for him to abuse her. And it escalates. That's possible too. I can definitely now, after seeing the crime scene photos, start to see how this isn't as clear cut as it may have initially sounded to me when we first started, which now I know why people are captivated by this case. Now it's like, okay, I get it. Can it be considered self-defense though, if you arm yourself and walk kind of like walk around the house like oh i'll be ready to stab him if he attacks me or would it be considered premeditation because at that point if you think you need to be

prepared because he might try to hurt you and you're prepared to stab him if he does wouldn't it make sense then to just remove yourself from that situation so that no one has to get stabbed i guess like would that still be considered self-defense if she had prepared herself with a knife to protect herself? I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think so. I think that you have the right to have a weapon on you in your home to protect yourself from outside threats or inside threats. And as long as she's not going into the bathroom, and this is something they would have to prove, which is why it's so hard. As long as she's not going into the bathroom with the key word, which is intent, intent on using the knife, like, hey, I'm going to lure

him into the bathroom. And as soon as he comes in here, I'm going to stab him. That's my intent going into it. Another example would be just most people I know for myself, I usually carry a pocket knife when I go out and it's not necessarily for defense, although it can be used as that. It's also just a utility thing for me. However, I carry it on me and I know that there's a potential I could use it in an extreme situation just because let's say hypothetically, I get something happens where I have to defend myself and I stab someone. That's not premeditation. That's me having a legal weapon in my possession to protect myself. And if confronted with someone who's trying to hurt me and I can't escape that situation, I have the right to defend myself by all means necessary. If he's threatening my life, I have the right to take his life.

And so that could be the argument made here. And I could see how that would also be compelling for people considering again, what happened just the night before we have all these text messages from the kids and from Danielle basically saying without saying it, that like he was a threat that night, he was dangerous. Everyone was kind of scared of him. Although Sawyer stayed in the home, they were all kind of walking on eggshells and scared of what he could do. So it's not too far of a fetch to think that he could have elevated his level of anger towards her now that the kids were no longer in the home. What did he do with them there? What could he do without them? That's what you have to ask yourself. So just so you know, not too far of a fetch is the new thing

that's going to be said. You like that? Yeah. not too far of a fetch is the new thing that's going to be said. You like that? Yeah. Far fetched. I was trying to change it up there. Did you like that one? Not too far of a fetch. Yeah. And secondly, to play devil's advocate, because I get to do that now. Well, I mean, you also have the advantage of knowing the whole story. No, I don't. I don't think it's an advantage here because I'm still confused knowing the whole story. But if she knew how big of a threat he was the night before, can it still be considered self-defense if she puts herself alone in the home with him the next night? What would be the argument there? Does she have a right to that home?

Yes. I'm not saying personally if it's the right decision or not. We're just talking from a legal perspective, right? Yeah. Like, does she have a legal right to be in that home? Yes. But if I know that there's like a serial killer lying in wait for me in my home, I'm not going to be like, well, screw you, serial killer. This is my place. You're not going to chase me out of my own home. You know what I mean? It's like a self-preservation thing at this point. And I mean, she's pretty lucky that she was in Florida because I think they have very loose self-defense laws. They're one of the states that have the stand your ground law. And I think in a lot of cases, not just this one, when they're applying the law as it's written to these cases, it's pretty black and white. And essentially, they ask a series of questions. And if you don't check all those boxes, then it doesn't meet the standard needed to charge someone or find them guilty of whatever crime you're looking at. And in this situation, regardless of whether it was the quote unquote right decision or the best decision based on the circumstances, maybe the jury's

sitting there going, no, she should have never went back there. However, legally, does she have a right to that property to be there? And if she does, does that change the fact that even though she may have had an opportunity to never put herself in that situation, she legally was there under the right circumstance, she could be there. And she has a right to defend herself in a place where she's legal entitled to be. Yeah. And I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, or she did the right or wrong thing. I'm just asking the questions that I would ask if I was on this jury. These are the things that would be running through my mind. Well, listen, there's a whole team of

prosecutors and a police department that ultimately charged her with a crime and was trying to convict her of that crime. So you're not alone. I do think there's going to be a lot of people that are going to watch this video or listen to it and say, ah, I don't know. Based on everything I know, I don't know if it was premeditated where, you know, she was looking for that opportunity to kill him, but it might've been a situation where while they're home, she makes a decision in that moment. I'm not doing this anymore. And I'm not ending up with nothing. I'm killing him. If he comes at me again, I'm killing him. Right.

Because earlier he had threatened her. He said, you know, this is over. I'm going to take your house. I'm going to take your kids. I'm going to put you back where you came from. And that could be, you know, when you see these kind of. He's going to ruin my life. Yeah.

But not if he's dead. He's going to ruin my life. He's never going to leave me alone. And I'm never, he's going to try my life yeah but not if he's dead he's going to ruin my life he's never going to leave me alone and i i'm never he's going to try to take my kids from me and if he comes at me tonight i'm going to kill him that to me is not self-defense right you know i think there's an op if you know that it could get to that level then you should remove yourself from the situation but but going by the letter of the law, I think that's really, really subjective. And it's going to be hard to prove when she decided I'm going to kill him. It's always hard to prove intent, isn't it?

Right. Yeah. Right. What was her intent? Because the only person, the only other person there is dead. Right. So what do you really have to go off of? There was only two people in that home at that time, and one of them is no longer able

to speak. So it's tough. You're kind of left with just her side of the story. Yeah, it's a hard one. I'm torn. So meanwhile, Danielle Redlick was at the hospital due to the fact that she had cut her own wrists. We're going to take a quick break and then we will come back and talk about what happened

next. So Danielle told a Winter Park paramedic that she had cut her wrists roughly 30 to 45 minutes before calling 911, and this paramedic observed that her wounds were no longer bleeding. Danielle also told the paramedic that her husband Michael had punched her several times and the paramedic did see a light-colored bruise on Danielle's left upper arm. CSI technician Edward Bigley had been sent to the hospital around 2 p.m. that day to document Danielle's alleged wounds and he saw what looked like a bruise on Danielle's left elbow, but he also took pictures of several other areas of injury that Danielle had indicated. Bigley would later testify that he didn't necessarily see these injuries with his naked eye,

but Danielle had told them that they were there, so he took photographs. However, Dr. Kristen Vanderveld, who was the ER physician on call that day that Danielle was admitted to the hospital, she did give Danielle an examination, and other than a small bruise on her arm and the lacerations to her wrists, which were self-inflicted, Dr. Vanderveld did not observe any additional injuries. So that's important too, because Danielle's going to claim that he was choking her. You heard it in the 911 call, he was choking me. She's telling the paramedic that he punched her in the face. But the doctor doesn't see any of these injuries. That same day, Danielle spoke to an agent from DCFS, so this department for children and family.

And this agent's name was Terrilyn Tucker. Now, Tucker was there to find out where Jaden and Sawyer were and to figure out if there were family members or friends nearby who could care for them since their father was dead and their mother was being held, not under arrest, but for observation due to the fact that she had tried to take her own life. Danielle told Terrell and Tucker that before going home the prior evening, she had stopped at McDonald's and gotten some food. After she had brought the food home, she was eating a hamburger. When Michael approached her, he took a bite out of her hamburger and then he spit it into her face. Danielle claimed that Michael then grabbed her arms and pushed her down to the ground before shoving her head into the stove and rubbing his fist into her face but not punching her.

When Danielle attempted to break free, she claims Michael put his hands over her face, covering her mouth and nose, and at that point, she felt around the kitchen counter, she was able to open a drawer and pull a knife out, and she held it as if she was going to stab Michael with it. At that point, Michael took the knife from her, he backed away from her, and he began making stabbing motions towards himself. Danielle ran out of the kitchen into the master bathroom. She closed the door. She sat on the bathroom floor against the door. And through the door, she could hear Michael enter the bedroom.

And she claimed that he kept saying, Sam, Katie, which she claims was in reference to the movie Cape Fear that she and Michael had watched together three weeks prior. I've seen this movie. I have no idea why Michael would be saying this weeks prior. I've seen this movie. I have no idea why Michael would be saying this. I tried to figure it out. I kind of went back and looked at different scenes. I have no idea why he would be saying this. If you guys know any idea or have any idea of why he would be saying this in these contexts, let us know in the comments. After a while, Danielle said she didn't hear anything, so she opened the bathroom door and she saw the trail of blood, which she followed to her husband's body in the living room by the couch.

Danielle told Terrell and Tucker that Michael wasn't moving and he was badly hurt, so she went to get her phone to call 911, but she couldn't find her phone. Danielle went to Michael's body, slipping on his blood to see if he was dead, and then she grabbed a towel and began to clean the blood on the floor. She also took off Michael's shirt to see where he had stabbed himself, and she tried to give him CPR, at which point Michael began vomiting. Now, by this time, the police already knew that at least this part of the story couldn't be true because there was no signs of CPR on Michael's body, and the medical examiner had told them that Michael's mouth was clear of vomit and there'd been no vomit present at the scene.

Danielle continued to tell Tucker that she did CPR until she became exhausted, at which point she collapsed next to the body of her husband and asked herself, what was she going to do? And then she fell asleep. When she woke up on the morning of January 12th, Danielle continued to clean up the blood on the floors, and she didn't know what to do, so she decided to kill herself, which is when she slit her wrists, and then she called 911 when her wrists started to bleed. However, with her story to the 911 operator, as well as the police, as well as to Tara Lynn Tucker,

Danielle was very insistent about one thing. She had not killed her husband. She had not stabbed him. He had done it to himself. Yeah, this is fascinating. I don't necessarily believe, actually, I want to take out the necessarily, I don't believe this version of events.

And this does pose some problems because if we're to believe what she's saying and the only difference is she's holding the knife, right? Instead of him stabbing himself, the argument becomes, what was he doing enough to suggest that she was in fear of her life? Exactly. Because that is the element here. You have to be in fear of losing your life to justify taking another life simpler example would be if i'm getting in a fight with someone in a parking lot over something stupid and my fear is that they're going to assault me and i need to defend

myself by punching them i can't escalate the situation say he's got two fists up i was in fear that he was going to punch me so i I shot him. It doesn't justify the level of response. So just because he's putting his hands on her, which I totally am not for, don't agree with, not justifying it, it doesn't give her necessarily the right to use lethal force to defend herself. So that is an interesting element to this because I do not believe he stabbed himself. But if there's some truth mixed in with some fallacy here, I could see how the argument of self-defense to use lethal force could be disputed by the prosecution. Yeah, well, I guess her argument would be he was putting his hands over her mouth and nose. So he was trying to like suffocate her, right? But she had also said that he had been choking her and there's no sign from the ER physician that she had been choked. So now the,

you know, putting his hand over her nose and mouth, like trying to suffocate her thing. That's her, her story now. Which is possible. Not saying it's not, but that's not what she told people initially, which is why we're bringing it up, right? If that's the case, then just say that initially, the fact that you're saying it after the fact may be suggestive that you realized, well, there's no visible injuries or anything under the layer of skin to suggest that I was being constricted in any way by my throat. So I have to go with something different. You know, it's easy to revise history. If you're the only one who has a story to tell. You can go with what you know they're finding or not finding for that matter. Yeah. And even if like, let's say you were being choked and you didn't have any visible bruising on the outside of your throat, you would still

have like swollen and inflamed tissue inside that a doctor could see, could examine, and could say, like, yes, this person was, you know, had some pressure applied to their neck because not everybody bruises the same, things like that. So, yeah. And this is happening. The police are gathering their information. You know, they're going down the path of the investigation. And they were able to discover that so much of Danielle's story didn't make sense. And what she had been doing in the 11 hours between her husband's death and her call to 911, it was also very suspicious. They'd performed an extraction on Danielle's iPhone, and they had discovered that multiple text messages exchanged between herself and Michael that showed on records

from their cell phone providers had been deleted from Danielle's phone. So like if you have Verizon, it'll show when you texted somebody on like your bill. But then if you delete it out of your phone, it doesn't delete off of Verizon's like services or their records. So the police could see certain text messages that had been exchanged between Danielle and Michael, but they weren't on Danielle's phone. And the funny thing is Danielle had an iPhone, but Michael had a Google Pixel 2, I believe. They could not extract his phone at all. They couldn't get anything off his phone. They even sent it to the CIA, and the CIA couldn't even break it. What is that shit? That's crazy. What's Michael Redlich up to, man?

Yeah, that's crazy. And I mean, do we know what time those text messages went back and forth at? They were the day of Michael's death. Because I wonder, and we'll never know, but I wonder if when she's creating a story of a robbery or something, she's going to try to separate herself and say she wasn't there. So maybe she has Michael's phone and she has her phone and she's doing a text conversation between the two of them to kind of say like, I wasn't even with him when this happened. And then she realized it wasn't going to work and decided to delete them. I wonder if those text messages were sent and we'll never really know the exact time,

but I wonder if they were sent before or after Michael was stabbed. That would be interesting to know, huh? They were sent before he was stabbed. Okay. So that's what you need to know. They were sent before he was stabbed. I think it was maybe more of a, if you come at me tonight, I'm going to kill you kind of text. You know, maybe one of those.

Yeah, that's possible. Even if she didn't mean it in the moment after this happened, she was like, oh, shit, that probably doesn't look good. So I should delete those messages. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And something I find extremely creepy, by the way, and it makes me want to go out and buy a Google Pixel 2 at this point, But your iPhone basically tracks everything. We already know, right, that it tracks everything. But it tracks like when your screen goes on, meaning like you're using your phone.

And when your screen goes off, meaning you're not using your phone anymore. And when it's plugged into the wall, charging. There is a table of contents which lists out the call logs, the chats, the contacts, and any images that might be on the device, web searches, web history, location data. And it actually, as a portion of the analysis, produces a timeline of all user events on that phone. So phone calls, text messages, and images that might have been taken in close proximity would show up in the timeline. And it shows a pattern of life and a pattern of activity for the user of that phone. So like not sponsored by Google Pixel, but I'd rather have a phone that the CIA can't even get into rather than a phone that's like, oh, you're using me now. Now you're sleeping. Now I'm

charging. Creepy, man. I don't like that. You wouldn't. You wouldn't. Especially me. I'm paranoid. So basically, with Danielle's extraction from her phone, the police were able to prove that not only was Danielle lying about not calling 911 because she couldn't find her phone, they were also able to prove what she'd been doing during that time after her husband was dead on the floor of their home and before she called 911 the next morning. The digital forensic investigator testified that at 10.50 p.m. on January 11th, the screen of Danielle's iPhone turned on, and at 10.52, she dialed 911, 911 into her phone and pressed send, which obviously didn't do anything because that's not a real number, right? So this is something the prosecution brought up and they were like, this is premeditated. You wanted it to look like you tried to call 911,

but you couldn't and you didn't know what was happening, et cetera, et cetera, because obviously that call is not going to go through. But then later she says she couldn't find her phone. So she's kind of like contradicting herself through her versions of stories that she's telling. Yeah, no, this story is definitely fabricated. There's really no doubt about it. The 911 thing, I'll give her a pass on that one. I could see how like in the moment you just killed someone and you don't realize you dialed 911 and then you look at them and then you press 911 again and you hit send. And I could see how you could make that mistake. So you think she legitimately tried to call 911 at that point? I think it's possible. Yeah, I think it's possible. I think it's very possible that

she could have put 911. If you're looking at your husband dead on the floor and you're the reason they're dead, I'm not saying I believe that she did. I'm just saying, is it possible if we could be a fly on that wall and she dials 911 and then she's looking at him and she's crying and she's going, oh my God, oh my God. She doesn't remember that she's already entered 911 in the phone. She dials it again, hits send, and doesn't even look at her screen to see what number she dialed. And it's not going through. And then she hits end and she's back on the ground.

I mean, I could see a world where your brain is complete. I've been through a lethal force situation. And I can tell you that my brain, after it happened, it just felt like I was having an outer body experience. And it's something like I could, I've never felt again. And I hope I never do, but I wasn't, I wasn't the same person for a few, for, for probably an hour there. I was just completely in a different headspace. So I could see how it would happen. I'm empathetic to it, but I'm not suggesting that's what she did. I do think that if she was cognizant of this and intentionally put 911, 911 twice and knowing that was going to be her excuse, it's kind of a shitty excuse.

It's not really that good. So I guess it would be on par with the other stuff she said. If she really tried to call 911, why would she later say like, oh, I couldn't find my phone, so I couldn't call 911? Right. Oh, no. there's this constantly contradicting things. And I could even go even further and say, if you tried to call 911 and it didn't go through, you would hang up and try again. Yeah. kind of the other argument i'm just trying to give both sides but i'm not sitting here saying like oh no i believe she tried because if we all know 9-1-1 works yeah so if it doesn't go through on the first try you'd probably hang up and dial it again right and say oh you know let me just try a second time here maybe it'll work so you wouldn't just be like 9-1-1's broken right now i'll try tomorrow morning 9-1-1's down well i'm gonna a nap. I give him a call in the morning. Yeah.

The whole falling asleep thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was an initial thought, which we're looking at it as a bad thing, honestly. And I think it could also be a good thing because it's so poorly planned out that to me contradicts the idea that it's premeditated, that she was, you know, there's the people out there that are saying contradicts the idea that it's premeditated. There's the people out there that are saying she was happy the kids were out of the home. This was her intent. Well, she sounds like a pretty intelligent person to me. So I would think if this was a premeditated situation, she would have a better story lined up for the aftermath. And it really seems like there was no thought put into some of

the things she was saying to police immediately after, which to me suggests that it wasn't something that she had thought about in depth. So I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. However you want to look at it, if you believe her, if you don't, you could take this information and flip it both ways. Yeah. I'm going to 100% say right now, I don't believe it was premeditated. That's just my opinion. I don't think she planned to do this. I don't, it's so tough to say, but I don't also necessarily think she had to do it, but she possibly thought in that moment that she had to do it, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. So after this failed 911 call, the phone screen turned off, but it would turn on and off again kind of all through that night, indicating that Danielle was using her phone continually until about 12.27 a.m. on January 12th, at which point the phone was plugged into the charger and it stayed on the charger until 7 a.m. that same morning, so January 12th. At 7.22 in the morning, Danielle logged onto her Meet Mindful app and she began scrolling through conversations

that she had been having with some different men. And I just saw your face. As soon as I said meet mindful, you were like, oh damn. I felt a pain in my chest. I know, it's hard. Yikes. That's a hard one, Danielle.

Before she calls 911. Okay. Records also showed that Danielle had also been active on Meet Mindful the previous afternoon and evening. So all throughout the day while she's fighting with Michael and all of this stuff's happening and she's on Meet Mindful, um, talking to guys. After checking those conversations, Danielle then Googled how to slit your wrists as well as how long does it take to bleed to death after slitting your wrists.

And she does this until 9.28 a.m., when she then places a call to 911 telling the operator that she thought her husband was dead, either from a heart attack or stabbing himself. So what do you think? Is there a defense? You got something for this? I understand how this could have happened. Sometimes when you're in a really messed up state of mind, you just want to go on your dating app and sometimes you need some instructions. No, I mean, you saw my face. Yeah. So you're like, this is hard to swallow, right? I got nothing for that one. Sorry, Danielle. You tried. I got nothing for that. That you're on a dating app within hours of the death of your husband, whether it was self-inflicted or carried out by yourself before calling law enforcement, you're on your dating app scrolling

through the conversations. To be fair, she waited till the next morning. She waited till the next morning. Okay. It wasn't within hours. Maybe she's looking to see if there's something in there that could be used against her as far as she was going to leave him for another man and she's going through her conversations to see if there's anything in there that could be used against her as a possible motive for why she would have wanted to kill is this supposed to be a positive for her well no negative for her where she's going in there deleting stuff that she think could incriminate her and but i do think that law enforcement would be able to tell or might meet mindful would be able to tell or Meat Mindful would be able to tell if she deleted conversations before calling police, which they would be able to

go back and retrieve. So yeah, I got nothing. I tried. Doesn't even sound good as I'm saying it. Yeah. They had the Meat Mindful guy, the founder of Meat Mindful, and he testified at the trial. And he didn't say that anything was deleted, just that she was looking through her messages and her conversations. Yeah. Scrolling through. So. I don't necessarily think she was on there like looking to like meet someone, but maybe just, I don't even know. I got nothing. I'm just going to stop When I'm really stressed out sometimes, I scroll through TikTok. I scroll through TikTok because I specifically can't deal with anybody and I know I'm not going to get messages and stuff on TikTok because it's a platform that nobody really knows I have. So I go on there knowing that I can disconnect from the world. I don't know if I'd go on a dating app if I was super stressed because then somebody might see that I was on and maybe like, what's his name,

Caesar or Mark or John's going to try hitting me and then I'm gonna be like, oh shit, like I can't talk to you right now. My husband's dead on the floor. But I don't know what her state of mind was. We'll hear what she says her state of mind was next episode. But on January 18th, the police got a search warrant to go back into the Red Lake home and also to collect DNA and saliva from Danielle. Apparently, Danielle was not happy about this because it was clear to her that they were now investigating her, and she was still insistent that she had not murdered her husband.

It is further directed that any evidence or property seized under this warrant shall be brought before a court and proper jurisdiction to be disposed of i did not murder my husband please i don't want to get a start into a upon request order to ncl this 16th day of january 2019 signed by judge gail A. Adams. Okay. I don't think you understand. You're saying the saliva, when I tried to, when there was resuscitation done, that that's second-degree murder? No, I'm collecting saliva standards from you,

as is in this warrant, for, to be tested. Because of the resuscitation? Ms. Redlich, you just heard yourself tell Detective Ware that you did not murder your husband. You heard that? Yes. You were lying to her when you told her that, correct? I stabbed my husband. I don't consider it.

I wasn't considering that murder. Oh, so what you were trying to get across is that you acted in self-defense in this passage. Yes, I wasn't trying to get it across, but yes. That's what you thought you were communicating? No, I didn't think I was communicating that necessarily. No, because actually what you say right after that is, why would you want my DNA? Was it for the saliva for the resuscitation? That's what you say right after that is why would you want my dna it was it for the saliva for the resuscitation that's what you say next correct yes i'm just trying to figure out what's going on you were trying to give the impression that the only reason that your dna would be on mr redlich is because you tried to save him that's the

impression you were trying to give i wasn't giving trying to give any impressions i was trying to get some impressions i was curious as to what was happening. You were trying to throw her off the scent, possibly. Do what now? You were trying to throw her off the scent. You were trying to give her the impression that you were not involved in this crime, correct? I just, I can see how now there's a school of people out there, and it's probably more divided than I initially thought,

that really do think that she not necessarily like you said earlier plan this out to kill him but absolutely could have avoided stabbing him and gotten out of the situation uh without going to that extent and i feel like that's what the prosecution is really going after here i mean second degree murder obviously is different than first degree murder. They charge you with second degree, you're saying, correct? Second degree, yep.

Yeah. So there's lesser ingredients needed to be charged and convicted of that crime. So it's one of those things where it seems like that's the angle they're going with here. And they're poking holes

in her story left and right. And she's not helping either because her behavior does indicate, I agree with the prosecutor there. She is trying to, she's trying to control the narrative even in that moment when they're collecting DNA. She's trying to be in charge of

why they're collecting it because she feels it could help her down the road. I don't know. It's tough. This is a tough one. Yeah, I mean, if you heard the last thing that she said, like, I hadn't had a chance to tell my story yet, people had a problem with this because Danielle, she says she hasn't been given the opportunity to say what actually happened yet

when in fact she'd told a few different versions of her story to many people, right? Including the 911 operator, a DCFS agent, doctors, paramedics, even the police themselves. So it's like, when are you going to tell it? The second search warrant happened on January 18th. That's almost a full week after Michael Redlich had died. So if Danielle had not taken the opportunity to tell her story, when did she plan on doing so? When was she going to do that? Or was she just going to keep going with the narrative that he had stabbed himself if the police allowed that to happen? And in fact, Danielle had spoken to Detective Pamela Ware just a few days prior to

this, reaffirming her original story and also trying to get information about the current investigation and like what they had and where they were going with it you'll learn that because miss redlich has attempted to kill herself and the evidence will show that this is another example of miss redlich's efforts to avoid responsibility for this crime but she's brought to a mental health facility um she's been Baker Acted. And this Baker Act will lead to three additional statements that you hear. While in the Baker Act facility, this defendant calls Detective Ware. You'll hear the call. And I want you to listen closely to the call because a couple of things are going on in the call. you're going to hear miss redlich probing for information you're going to hear her hopeful somehow hopeful that this is not going to

turn into a murder investigation that law enforcement is going to encounter that scene and and say yep you know this looks like a suicide, yep, maybe a heart attack, and sort of close a book on it. You'll hear her hopeful that that outcome is still one that's possible. You'll hear her, and it's a small detail, but pay attention, you'll hear Ms. Redlich say, what I told the dispatcher was the truth. She'll say, she'll maintain that the story she provides in that

911 call is the real story. I've already given you the real story. And she also will say something important. Ms. Redlich will say, I've already told the folks in here what happened. So I didn't want to play the actual call because it was played in the courtroom. This had sound quality. It was just so bad. You couldn't hear anything that was being said. But you know, that was pretty much the sum of what she said. And when detectives went back to the home on January 18th, 2019, they found Danielle's journal on the counter open to a specific page. And the last sentence on that page said, quote, forgive me for all my wrongs, for I am hardly sorry, end quote. Danielle Redlich had given blood on January 12th, and although she had told the 911 operator that the only person who had been drinking on that Friday night was Michael, there was a copious amount of alcohol in her blood 13 hours after Danielle indicated that Michael had died.

So basically the next morning, there was still an extremely high amount of blood, of alcohol in her blood. And police also found a large number of empty wine bottles in the recycling bin outside the Redlich home. And of course, the police were going to talk to people who knew Danielle and Michael Redlich to get an idea of who these two people were and who they were together. One woman said she had past experiences with Danielle, and she was actually at the soccer game, or I mean the football game that night. I almost think it was the mother of the friend that Sawyer spent the night with, but I can't be positive. But it's one of those, it's like a mom of one of the kids that knows Sawyer.

And this woman would tell police that Danielle could just turn on a dime. One night, the two of them went out, and after five drinks, Danielle did turn. The woman claimed that Danielle began swinging her fists at her for no reason, and the police had to be called. This same woman saw Danielle at Sawyer's football game the night of Michael Redlich's death, and she said that Danielle had that same look in her eye, the same look that she'd had the night they'd gone out and Danielle just started swinging on her. A friend of Michael's told the police that Michael had talked to him about his marriage, describing it as rocky. Michael claimed that Danielle had outbursts, she would often get angry, and she had a drinking problem. And when Michael's friend said that they were worried and that that wasn't a good sign, Michael had responded that Danielle

was crazy, but as long as he hid the steak knives, everything would be fine. The same person said that they were aware there had been many heated arguments throughout the marriage and that Michael and Danielle had been living in separate houses for a time, and Michael had told him that he was moving back in, at which point Michael's friend had jokingly asked him if he was still hiding the steak knives, to which Michael had replied, oh yeah. This person claimed they knew that Danielle would throw things at Michael and that she had an explosive personality, but as far as this person knew, Michael had never hit Danielle. The police report claims that when they spoke to this witness, that person had no idea how Michael had actually died because his death was being reported as a heart attack. So basically, the police are saying, like, this person isn't answering these questions knowing that Danielle's a suspect for Michael's murder. They think Michael died of a heart attack. He's just talking organically about what he knows about the relationship. Another witness claimed that they had previously seen Michael Redlich with a black eye, and that had been a week before his death.

She also said she'd seen bruising on his forearm that looked like four fingerprints. We also have the testimony of Danielle's own daughter, Jaden, who had claimed that she did not often see her father get angry and lose control, but her mother was a different story. When asked what the relationship was like between her parents, she had said, quote, very toxic, tumultuous, very rocky. Yeah, it was not a good relationship. Very rocky. End quote. When asked who was the primary source of the tension in the relationship, Jaden had responded, quote, my mother. If there was an issue between them,

it would be brought up by my mother, end quote. Additionally, even after finding out that the autopsy had decided Michael had died from non-self-inflicted wounds, Danielle proceeded to tell both of her children, as well as others, that he had died from a heart attack. So once again, we did mention this in the first episode. Jaden's testimony, I think, is compelling. But we also have to remember that she is a child. She would have witnessed a lot of this stuff, yes. But she would also be sort of at the whim of what her parents were telling her on the side. So we don't know.

She didn't seem to have – she also said she didn't have like a super good relationship with her mother, but she was really close with her father. So it may just be a situation where she had a favorite parent or she was favorited by her father. I don't know. It's tough to tell with kids and family dynamics are hard and they're hard to predict. I agree. And we just don't know who is doing a better job of masking some of their other behaviors from the children. Seems like some of the stories that Daniel had told, even as far as him approaching her outside before the football game, as soon as Jaden came out, or it might've been Sori that came out, one of them came out, as soon as they did, he turned it off. So he might've just done a better job of keeping it from them. But then it's interesting to hear them say that because there were conversations going back and forth where clearly they were aware that dad had, you know, was not with the best intentions when he was drinking. Yeah, it's very tough. And that night after Sawyer's football game, when Michael Redlich went home, he stopped at a liquor store.

I think it was ABC Liquor Store. And he got another bottle of vodka. So obviously, there's alcohol fueling that whole evening again. Both Danielle and Michael had been drinking heavily that night, right? Because now we know Danielle had alcohol in her bloodstream or whatever you want to say. So it's just not a great recipe for anybody involved. And I just kind of wanted to shine a light on these things because I don't want anybody to think that, I mean, somebody in the comments, I blocked you by the way. So keep writing your comments. I'm not going to see you. But somebody was like, oh, Stephanie's always going to side with the woman. She hates men, blah, blah,

blah. Like, come on, man. I try to be fair like I'm not always gonna side with the woman and there's plenty of other people who would say that I never side with the woman so it's just like it's subjective and and on that note a lot of comments you're all listening to the same video right and a lot of people were like oh I completely understand how this could happen and a lot of people were like I don't I completely understand how this could happen. And a lot of people were like, I don't understand how this could happen. You kind of view the world through your own personal subjective experiences. And you can look at the same content and see things completely differently based on what you've been through, what you've experienced, what you know. And that's why a case like this is so difficult because it is very much open to interpretation because we

only have one side and it's up to us how much of that side we believe depending on like what evidence there is to support that side but we we do have to you know as humans and as people true crime creators who are covering this case we have to look at it in the way where Danielle may be at fault for some of this, or she could have been, you know, maybe going at it harder than she had to, and maybe she didn't have to stab him that night. We have to do that because it's only fair to do that. And we have a man who's dead, two children who have lost their father, and we have to give him a fair shake as well,

even though a lot of what we've heard about him has been reprehensible to me, of all people. I think a lot of what we've heard of him has been reprehensible, but he's not here. And we have to give him his fair day in the court of crime weekly. It's interesting going into, I'm assuming we're doing one more part, correct? One more part. Yep. I figured that seeing that I said two-parter. I knew it was coming. Yes to everything you said. My takeaway after two parts is I feel like from the limited information we have about this family, Michael had some alcohol issues. Danielle might have had some as well.

Clearly, she had some as well. She had run-ins with the law. And I feel like I still believe that Michael was the primary aggressor based on what we know, but that is only coming from Danielle. But I do feel like based on some of the things she even talked about at the Gap and at the shoe store, that's not good behavior. That's not normal behavior. It's toxic. It's manipulative. And I'll even go as far back as saying there's something deeper with Michael. And I hate to say this when the guy's in the ground, but I would even argue that there was some grooming done when Danielle was younger to make her more susceptible to what happened. Because I'm sorry, guys, it's not normal for a stepdad to ultimately marry his stepdaughter. That's just not a good way of doing things. I agree 100% with you. That is not normal. It feels icky.

I know they were two adults, but he was her stepfather. And he's the older person in that situation. He had the opportunity to not have that happening. So I think there's some stuff even from the very beginning. And now we, so if we agree to disagree or whatever you guys feel about the fact of who's more screwed up, okay, now it gets down to the law. And what we have here is basically a situation that is narrowed down to maybe an hour and nobody's really there. But what we know is that we have first degree murder, which entails having intent and pre

meditation. Well, prosecution decided not to go with that because it would have been too hard to prove. So they go with second degree murder, which does not require premeditation. And it can even in some cases not require, the act itself may have just been to seriously injure and have it result in death. So it's a lot lesser of a threshold to meet, to get a conviction. So what it really comes down to at this point is, do you believe Danielle when she says she was in fear of her life and she stabbed him to get him away from her or to live, to survive? And unfortunately, she's the only one there to tell the story. So it's basically, she has a huge advantage. And I'm really interested, I'm trying

not to look at the comments. Um, I haven't really seen anybody say anything, spoil it for us yet, but I feel like what I've seen so far that if we had all of the facts, if we were like in that house, when it happened, more than likely she would have been convicted of second degree murder, but not having the elements required to find someone guilty. I could definitely see an acquittal in the situation because what do I always say? It's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

And the, the prosecution doesn't have enough to say definitively she stabbed him with the intent on hurting him, even though she wasn't in fear of her life, who's going to be able to tell us what was going on inside of her head at the time? And they can't do that. So that's why they're focusing on her behavior after the incident to try to show that she knew what she had done and she was trying to cover it up. But I think you could also make an argument that if she was telling the truth and it was self-defense, she was in fear that it would

be looked at as like a murder and therefore was afraid and tried to cover it up because she didn't think anyone would believe her. So you could go both ways with it and you could paint the story whichever way you want people to believe it. And when that happens, when it could go either way, the jury is going to find the person not guilty. That's the way the courts work or they're supposed to work she could have stabbed him you know to defend herself and then was like oh shit i stabbed him he's going to be livid now and then she runs into the bathroom she doesn't hear him after a while goes out to check and he's dead you know she probably didn't think oh i stabbed him and like pierced his lung maybe she wasn't trying to do that. Maybe she was just trying to like get him away or slow him down and ended up killing

him, not intending to. And, and it's very possible. So it's, it's difficult. But even that, even that right there, that's second degree murder. If, if she wasn't in fear of her life at that moment, like that scenario you just laid out is really, really plausible. Honestly, I think, I think you might be onto something there. But if she's in a situation where they're arguing, they're fighting, they're hitting

each other, she gets upset and she stabs him in the rib because she just wants to cause pain. She's just trying to prove a point where they're going back and forth with each other and he's not necessarily trying to kill her, but they're beating each other up. She takes a knife off the kitchen counter, stabs him to be like, you know, Hey, what do you do in the ribs? Not in an area where she thinks it's not going to kill him. And he dies as a result of that injury. That is by definition, second degree murder. So that's why she can't say that she has to go with the, with the argument, the defense that at the time when she stabbed him, she was actively in fear of losing her life. And how can you dispute it?

How can you dispute what she was feeling or what was happening in that very moment? That's kind of scary. That's kind of scary. Does it make sense what I'm saying, though? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But somebody could like literally kill you in like the privacy of your own home. And then they could just say that they were afraid you were going to kill them, you know? And then it's up to a jury. Yeah. Then it's up to a jury and it's up to a prosecution and a defense. Yeah. I mean, that's really what we're talking about here is what were her true feelings at the time when she

stabbed him, which she's admitting to she's saying i i thought he was going to kill me well how do we how do we discredit her you really can't right and that's why they're trying so hard to prove that there was prior abuse like long-standing abuse that's all you got yeah that's all you got but what hurts her is her prior uh history of. And then you have the kids even saying like, she was someone who would go for an argument. She was not someone who was sitting in the room and he was always just berating her and over the top of her. There's probably some truth to the idea that she was looking for a fight on many occasions with him as well. I think that's

fair to say that in most relationships, marriages, it's not always one-sided you both have days where you come into the house and you're looking for an argument and i feel that that was the case here i don't think she was just some person who was just this meek person who never spoke up for herself it seems like they went they went at it yeah we know she wasn't she would say yeah she would say sometimes he'd be like oh are you putting these tampons here because you think i'm a and she'd be like no but are you a you know like yeah I'm not saying you shouldn't stand up for yourself but I'm saying in a situation where like honestly in a situation where I'm with an abusive person I'm not saying that right I'm not gonna say that because I know he's gonna lose it um that's just yeah that's just the way you train yourself to be. You handle this person with like kid gloves.

You walk literally on eggshells. So, yeah, I don't know. It's tough. Well, at least we know where we are now, right? Where are we? We know the hang up with the case. Yeah. We've dialed it in to about one minute.

Everything else you've covered, history before, behavior afterwards, text messages, phone calls, other people on dating sites and previous infidelity, all this stuff. The whole case is contingent on basically 30 seconds. What was she thinking at the time when she stabbed him? What was she thinking? And whether or not you believe her. Damn. That's really what it comes down to. That's what we're going to pick up in the next and final part, right?

Right. We're going to find out because ultimately that's what it boils down to. If you believe at the time when she stabbed him, she was in fear of her life, then she's innocent. If you believe at any point when she stabbed him, she was doing it as a means of aggression towards him where they were going back and forth. Then it's second degree murder, period. But that you can't just think it, you got to be able to prove it. It's the burden is on the prosecution to prove that she committed that crime. It's not her responsibility to disprove it.

So the prosecution's got to come up with some type of evidence that suggests beyond a reasonable doubt that she intended on hurting him or killing him. And it wasn't an act of defense. That's tough. Well, weigh in, guys, in the comments if you're watching on YouTube

and let us know what you're thinking, where you're at thus far. We definitely want to know. And I guess join us next week where we'll wrap this up and I guess kind of give our final thoughts as well. Damn, I'm like, I'm so torn right now. It's tough. It's a tough place to be in. But follow us on social media if you're not already. Crime Weekly Pod, right, on Twitter and Instagram. Yeah. And then also don't forget Criminal Coffee. It's www.criminalcoffeeco, and that's C-O dot com. You can order your coffee. You can check in on the Fight Crime tab and see how we're doing there. You can

just pop over and say hello. We would love that. Thank you guys so much for being here. And until next week, stay safe out there. All right. Be safe, guys. Night. Bye.