Crime Weekly - S2 Ep96: Hae Min Lee & Adnan Syed: Does Anyone Have an Alibi? (Part 2)

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

It was an unseasonably warm January afternoon in Baltimore County, Maryland when 18-year-old Woodlawn High School senior Hae Min Lee left school in her gray 1998 Nissan Sentra and headed out to pick up her six-year-old cousin from kindergarten before going to her job at the local LensCrafters. But sometime after leaving Woodlawn High School and before picking up her little cousin, Hae Min Lee vanished into thin air. Less than a month later, maintenance worker Alonzo Sellers was driving back to his job at Coppin State College and drinking a beer when he realized he had to use the bathroom, and it couldn’t wait. Mr. Sellers pulled over on the side of the road and walked deep into the woods to relieve himself, at which point he made a gruesome discovery. According to his later testimony, Mr. Sellers said quote, “when I looked down I seen something that looked like hair, something that was covered by dirt. And I looked real good again, and that’s when I seen what looked like a foot” end quote. Alonzo Sellers had stumbled upon the body of Hae Min Lee, she had been strangled to death by the bare hands of her attacker, and within a few weeks, the police would make an arrest for her murder. But, the suspect was a person that no one would have suspected capable of such a horrific crime, the ex-boyfriend of Hae, a sweet and smart 17-year-old named Adnan Syed. But, stay with us, because, it’s complicated… Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod Ads: You’ve earned your fun time. Go to the App Store or Google play to download Best Fiends for free. Plus, earn even more with $5 worth of in-game rewards when you reach level 5. That’s Friends, without the r—Best Fiends. Once you try Pretty Litter, it’ll be the only litter you ever use. Go to  Pretty Litter dot com slash crimeweekly to save twenty percent on your FIRST order. That’s Pretty Litter dot com slash crimeweekly to save twenty percent on your first order. Right now, get up to 55% off your subscription when you go to BABBEL dot com slash CRIMEWEEKLY. That’s BABBEL dot com slash CRIMEWEEKLY for up to 55% off your subscription. Babbel—Language for life.

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Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So as we revisit the murder of Hayman Lee, we also are going to keep you updated on any new information that's coming out because these past few months, they've been a turning point in this case and things are happening even as we speak. Days after we recorded part one of this series, it was announced that the Baltimore City State's attorney, Marilyn Mosby, had instructed her office to perform advanced DNA testing on Hayes' shoes, skirt, pantyhose, and jacket. And Mosby said, quote, the items that we tested had never before been tested. We used advanced DNA to determine that it was not Adnan Saeed, end quote. And what Marilyn Mosby means by that is Adnan's DNA was not found on those items during this

advanced DNA testing that, for some reason, wasn't done on these items until over 20 years after the murder, which I don't understand that. However, there was a mixture of four different DNA profiles on the shoes that Hay was wearing on the day she died. And reportedly, two homicide detectives with the Baltimore City Police Department are going to be helping the state's attorney's office actively reinvestigate this case, which will focus on alleged exculpatory evidence about the possible involvement of two other suspects, including a person who was reportedly convicted for attacking a woman in her car and who allegedly said he would make Hayman Lee disappear and that he would kill her.

A second suspect was convicted of engaging in serial rape and sexual assault, according to the statement from the state's attorney's office and apparently those rapes and assaults did not happen until after Hay died however when asked if all of this meant that Adnan Saeed is innocent Marilyn Mosby told CNN quote the one thing that I will say after an extensive review of all of the evidence that we just talked about we do not have credible evidence that Mr. Saeed is a responsible party in this event, end quote. So that's a lot to take in. What do you think about this, Derek? So a few things. I'll weigh in on that in a second, but I want to reiterate because overall, we were a little concerned about covering this and the

timing. And as Stephanie said, the dropping of the charges happened after we recorded episode one and we're like oh God here we go we're gonna get called out for this we're not saying that the charges were dropped but most people understood because I put it in the com the title as well where I was given a description but what's interesting about this case is I want you guys to remember that as we're covering this we're covering it from the perspective of who killed hayman lee we're not here to say oh is adnan sayid guilty or innocent that's not the main objective here there's a there's a murder that now is considered unsolved and that's our focus now will adnan be a big part of that of course he will because just like some

of these other individuals stephanie mentioned there's a reason that they're tied to it. And we would be foolish not to consider Adnan part of that with his ties to Heyman Lee and some of the things that were brought up in the original case and that we're going to bring up through this series. So again, just to reiterate for anybody who's sensitive about the fact that now that these charges have been dropped, we're still going to be talking about Adnan extensively. It's from the perspective of who killed Heyman Lee, because if not him, then who? That's number one. As far as what you just said, I think it's very interesting because when this initially happened, I said to you, I want to speak to a DNA expert. I had a couple of people in mind. I still am going to probably speak with them when we get to that portion, but I have worked cases where there's, they're polarizing cases and people believe that the individual who killed the victim is a hundred percent guilty. Even though one of my arguments as to why they weren't is the crime

scene had zero DNA evidence from the alleged suspect and people would tell me derek you're crazy you're biased because they could have wore a suit they could have had gloves they could have cleaned the air they could have wiped down everything so just the lack of dna evidence does not automatically mean the person's innocent and i don't completely disagree but here we have a situation where there's a mixture of DNA from what I read as well. And it appears that that mixture of DNA, none it doesn't mean that he didn't do it. And I think there's a difference there. They're not saying, as some people have said to us and in the comments, he's been cleared. He's innocent. No, he cannot be charged because there's not enough evidence to convict him in the court of law. The threshold, which is proof beyond a

reasonable doubt, they do not believe that would be met. And from what I've heard so far, I agree. Now, when you start talking about exculpatory evidence, that's evidence that would completely rule him out something on video or something to put him in another place. When the crime occurred, we start hearing about that. And that maybe detectives hid that information. To me, that's more important as far as his innocence is concerned than the lack of DNA that was found at the crime scene. I'd be lying to you guys if I told you I didn't do a little research into this, not extensive, but I've started to read some things. And from what I've been hearing, there may have been some gloves used, certain measures that were taken to try to avoid the transmission of DNA at the scene.

We will dive into all that, but my takeaway is this is very compelling as far as Adnan's guilt or innocence. And it definitely would be something that would be used if he was ever tried again, because no DNA there is a big deal. But for people saying that this completely rules him out, I think that's a little bit of a stretch. Um, so we just got to keep that in mind, but just to reiterate, cause I know it's a sensitive subject. It doesn't mean we're focusing this series on Adnan. He's going to be one of a few different people that we discuss. And that's, what's important because number one, as I've said all along, in my opinion is Heyman Lee. That's where, that's where, that's where I am.

Not going to move me off of that. And because of that, the ex-boyfriend, Adnan, will be mentioned numerous times because it would be foolish for us not to. Yeah, I agree. It's hard to go through this because there's so much, right? And I even find myself going through it. I'm like, oh, maybe I shouldn't even say that, you know, because he's been cleared. And maybe people will be mad if I say that. You can't think like that when you're going into these

cases. You can't think like, oh, I don't, I have to worry about what people are going to think or say if I talk about this, because then you're not being fair to the victim. I'm not going to be fair to, hey, if I'm, you know, taking out or omitting certain things because I'm worried that people will get upset. It's just not the right thing to do. So you really have to go into it completely open-minded, understanding that it could be another person or multiple other people, but it could be just that no DNA was left behind.

There's plenty of crime scenes, unsolved murders to this day where there just was no DNA that could be retrieved and traced back to somebody so just because there's no DNA there it doesn't mean somebody whose DNA is not there wasn't responsible and I mean the DNA was on her shoes I feel like that's the place where I feel like DNA would be all over because you're walking on the ground you're walking on the ground all the time you're touching things you're going in bathrooms I always think that. That's why I don't wear my shoes inside because I'm going in public bathrooms and I'm not bringing whatever was in that public bathroom into my house. And I take my shoes off as soon as I get inside because it's

gross. Your shoes pick up all sorts of stuff. So it could be possible that the DNA on Hayes' shoes isn't even connected to the person who took her life. And it's just DNA that she picked up along the way. Contamination happens all the time. And I will say it is interesting because they did say that they were testing all those clothes and her shoes and those things had never been tested before, which to me shows that there was a ball dropped somewhere. 100% agree with that. Thank you for bringing that up. Right. Those should have done been tested. That should have been one of the first things that they did upon finding her body. But there was no DNA on any of her clothing because she was left out in the elements for so long, about a month. And her shoes were found in her car. So honestly, from what I see, they can't even prove for a fact that those were the shoes she was wearing that day. That's a whole nother, another can of worms. Yeah. And I would just ask you guys this.

We know that someone killed Heyman Lee, right? Someone killed her. She didn't kill herself. So let's save just for the sake of this example. It's not Adnan. Well, then why isn't the actual killer's DNA on her skirt and on her clothes? They say a hundred percent. We know it's not at none. Well, where's the killer's DNA. It's not on there either. So if they charge someone else, it's going to be with a lack of DNA evidence, unless that mixture on the shoes contains one of these individuals.

And now if it does, we'll get into the names later. They got problems for sure. Especially if they're not someone who frequented Hayes car or, or were in contact with her often. So that's a whole different thing that we're going to dive into. But it's also like almost impossible to think about it. Even if the DNA matches somebody, you'd have to check their alibi.

And I mean, it's over 20 years, you know, at this point. Well, if it belongs to Jay, Jay's got some problems. Yeah. And if it belongs to Jay and the police knew that, they got some problems. We haven't even talked about Jay yet. I know we haven't talked about him, but for people, and that's why I just want to say, Jay, you mentioned Jay in episode one. You said he's going to be a big part of this series.

And you're right. He is. He's a huge part of the series. So we did mention him briefly in episode one. We didn't dive into it and we're not going to now. But we do have to do some qualifications here because everyone has covered this We know there's a million quote-unquote experts on it A lot of people have dedicated years of their lives to this to this case

So we're trying to be considerate of that and so for all those people that this is going to get back to and I'm sure it Will understand now we're approaching this as a cold case involving a victim by the name of Heyman Lee. And there are going to be multiple individuals that we're going to talk about. And obviously Adnan will be one of them. And so we'll just see where it goes. That still may not be a good enough explanation for some people. Frankly, I don't care because it's the truth. So we're just telling you how it is. Some of you will appreciate that. Some of you won't. Okay. So going over this case in detail from start to finish, it's going to give us a new perspective on everything, especially with this new information on hand and in our minds. It's going to give us the ability to look

at the evidence and timelines with the idea that there may be someone else or more than one someone else who had a reason to want to see Hayman Lee hurt or dead. And it's also going to hopefully allow us to come to a more fully formed conclusion at the end of the series. At the end of the day, there is a family whose loved one is gone. They thought that they had some closure and justice, and now they feel completely lost. Steve Kelly, the attorney who's representing Hay's younger brother, Young, said, quote, It's like the lines are not connecting. The family asked me to try to explain to them how the DNA evidence completely exonerates him, and I can't explain it. End quote.

Now, it does seem like the next obvious step is to take the four DNA profiles collected from Hayes' shoes and compare them against the two suspects that they're looking into now, but authorities have not said whose DNA is on the shoes or if they have been compared to other DNA profiles. But DNA expert Monika Sinha believes that it will be possible to not only exclude Adnan from being a contributor of the DNA on the shoes, but also to match the DNA to someone else. She said, quote, Sometimes it can be possible to exclude somebody and for a mixture to be too complex to interpret otherwise. That's not the usual case. I expect the fact that they could do a comparison means they could do a comparison to whoever the suspect is, end quote. And that means we should be hearing more.

We should be seeing progress and getting some very real updates that move the needle in the next weeks or months, such as a possible identification of one or both of the alternate suspects. And then we can see if these people are able to provide alibis because, you know, once again, their DNA being on her shoes isn't the ultimate evidence of their involvement in her murder. I feel like, you know, like I said, there's all sorts of DNA on people's shoes. But for now, let's do all that it is in our power to do. Keep going through the case. But we will be talking about the clothes that Hay was wearing that day and the shoes, because unlike her clothing, the shoes that have been tested were not found with her body, which, like I said earlier,

can lead to a whole different series of questions. I agree. And I will say this, just to reiterate what we said in the opening. That's right there what it is. Because Adnan's DNA is not on her shoes, that is compelling and a feather in his cap for sure. Can't deny it. And we shouldn't deny it. It's a good thing. We want to get to the truth. But we do need someone that's in that mixture to be identified for the reasons that you just said. They will be questioned and they will have to provide alibis. And if it comes back to certain people that we've already spoken about, they're going to have some serious questions to answer, especially if they

have no justification as to how their DNA got on Heyman Lee's shoes. If it's someone who's not related to her at all, but happened to be in the area at that time and could have potentially carried out this act, they got some problems. And that in and of itself could clear and exonerate Adnan, especially if they have no connection to him whatsoever. So this is a big thing for Adnan and we should be happy that we have this information, but that's what you really need to take from it. it yes it's not compelling for anybody who believes adnan is somehow responsible and that's the commonsensical conclusion to come to but it doesn't clear him completely but the results of this dna testing may lead investigators

in a different direction that might be nowhere near adnan which there are a lot of people who feel he's guilty so we'll have to see what happens, but I agree with you, Stephanie. They're going to go put this under a fine tooth comb. They're going to try to identify who this DNA belongs to. It's not always a guarantee, but if they can do that, it will start to tell a story and then it's on good investigators to start to put it together. Who does this DNA belong to? Where were they at the time of the incident? And can they explain how their DNA got on her shoes? All important questions, but it starts with the identification and the matching of the DNA, which will require the person's DNA who's been on there

to have somehow been involved with law enforcement or their family members to have logged into a DNA database for genealogical observations as far as their own backgrounds and where they're from, kind of like we saw with Golden State. There's a lot of variables that have to fall in our favor for them to make a positive identification. So let's hope that happens. No, but they do have the two suspects in mind, these two alternate suspects. Correct. That's easy. Yeah, they already have them. They can just compare dna

and then either like super easy they are potentially involved or no this isn't their dna and we can i guess scratch them off the list too even though i wouldn't even say that would scratch them off the list like that's what i'm saying it's it's just not enough to say oh the dna is not there to also go ahead and say like you definitely didn didn't do it. Cause if these two guys that they're thinking possibly did it, if their DNA is not on her shoes, then what, then what, you know, it's like, it's very complicated. It is. And I will say the shoe DNA, you gave some good explanations as to how it could get there. It could also be because the person that's on that, on her shoes was the person carrying her by her feet. So it could be everything. It could be nothing. Carrying her by her feet. Yeah. So let's say she was found allegedly, if you're to believe

some of the stories, that she was in her trunk at some point, correct? I don't want to get too far ahead. You have so much to cover. But a lot of you know the story. There was a point where allegedly Hay was in the trunk of her vehicle. Well, she got there somehow. She had to be carried. So you would think one person may have her by under the armpits, one person by her vehicle. Well, she got there somehow. She had to be carried. So you would think one person may have her by under the armpits, one person by her feet. That would explain how the co-conspirators DNA got on her shoes. I'm not saying that's the case because that requires you to believe witness testimony from someone who a lot of people do not believe. So we'll have to get there. But I think the big takeaway is, again, the DNA could be everything.

It could be nothing. But in order to find that out, we have to match that DNA to someone. And that's the big barrier to entry right now for investigators. They got to use the technology and science available to try to make that happen. In this case, we have three timelines for January 13th, 1999 that are important and then we're going to go over so that's the timeline of the victim who is hey min lee we have the timeline of adnan saeed and then the timeline of the witness who claimed he was with adnan for a portion of that day at which point he helped adnan bury hayes body in lincoln park and that's jay wilds in the next episode we

are going to cover those two latter timelines, so Jay's and Adnan's. And then we're also going to look at the cell phone data and witnesses to try and figure out which timeline is more accurate, since the recollections of Adnan and the witness, Jay, who testified against him, they are vastly different. And they both did change slightly over time from retelling to retelling but today we're talking about the movements of hey Min Lee on the last day she was alive and it's very important because for a long time everyone thought that she had done a few specific things that day or she had planned to based on witness testimony which has turned out to be less than reliable and if you want a couple of things about this case,

that could be like taglines for this case. It's the police screwed up and witness testimony is less than reliable because I've never seen a case. And that's why it's so hard to really be in control of the narrative the way I like to be. It's so hard to really put things in like an organized fashion the way I like to

because these people be changing their story every five seconds. Sometimes they're interviewed by the police the first time, and then they're interviewed by the police the second time, and their story changes from that to that. And then they go to trial because Adnan had two trials. If a lot of you aren't aware of this, he had two trials. The first ended in a mistrial because of his attorney, and then the second, that was when he was convicted. But he has two trials. Some of their testimony changed from when they talked to the police to the first trial and then changed again when they testified in the second trial. So it's a lot. And by the way, that's a problem. It's a big problem. It's a big problem when you're going on circumstantial evidence and witness testimony and the witnesses themselves can't be consistent.

And that's why a lot of people have a problem with this case. And it's justified. Yeah. And I mean, if you also look, you know, the investigation that followed, they did drop the ball. You know, they dropped the ball on corroborating evidence. And that poses an additional challenge. And it could be because Hayman Lee, she was considered to be a missing person initially. You know, she's a 17, 18-year-old high school senior.

She's got her own car. She's got a job. She's got a boyfriend. She could have very well run off on her own accord, right? So there's going to be weeks that the police are looking for Hay, not necessarily looking for her dead body, looking for her, thinking she may have just run off somewhere. And so they're not going to be pulling security footage and they're not going to be doing those things that maybe there's like, you know, a timestamp on. I don't agree with that. I think they should have been. You probably do too.

But this is what happens when you assume. You always got to go more. We've had cases like this before where other cops will make fun of someone because they're treating it like a murder when it's a larceny from a motor vehicle. Well, that's because when the real case does happen, they're going to be prepared and they're going to handle it the right way. Because what happens, and I've seen this numerous times, police officers walk into a situation, think they got nothing. They half-ass it. They're contaminating the crime scene. And as they're strolling through the apartment, they make their way into another room just to make sure, you know, everything's secured for when they leave.

And they open the closet and there's a dead body in there. True story. Actually happened. Won't say where. Won't say when. Actually happened. And now you have a murder scene. But now you've had seven police

officers in there walking around contaminating every area of that house. So it does happen. So it's always better as investigators to treat every crime as if it's a serious in nature and it's easier to pull it back than to ramp it up. Yeah. So people say like, oh, they definitely like, you know, they reacted very quickly. Why did they react so quickly when, you know, this was just a missing person? Like, I really don't think that they they they really looked at this as a homicide or anything to do with foul play until, you know, right at the end of January and like going into the beginning of February when they started kind of looking into things. And so you have to understand by the time they're even interviewing people, it's been weeks. So right off the bat, people's recollection of events is also going to be foggy because it didn't just happen. It's some time has passed between when it happened.

And we're going to see that all the time in here. And it's so, so frustrating. Yeah, it can go both ways. I think sometimes when there's a sense of urgency, it's because the police officers do a preliminary investigation, realize that this is very uncommon for the person that's missing, realize there's no previous complaints of a disobedient or wayward child where they're constantly running away from home, realize that this is really out of character for this person. They're usually very on time,ual don't really go off the beaten path without letting someone know where they are Even it's you know, we're not talking to stone age here

They can go look at her gps coordinates to see where the phone went off a lot of she's not picking up She's not answering her text messages. She doesn't have a phone. Oh, she doesn't have a phone Okay, see we're gonna get there. So no phone. She's got a pager and that's it Okay, so she doesn't there's cell phones then But she doesn't have one good to know and so we also have the situation where they're gonna interview the parents Was she complaining about where she was did she have any? Problems with the current situation at the home. They're gonna look at her diary They're gonna look at those things to see if there's any indication that she would be

Preparing to run away at any point and this could be something that would uh just confirm that so when they start to go through that see she's a great student great athlete home may be strict but they're caring they care about her they're they're all very close talking to friends she's responsible there's no indication that she's running away yeah they're going to ramp it up a little faster. It may not even be fast enough in this case, but for people who are wondering why they might have acted so quickly in some circumstances, that would be why. On the morning of January 13th, 1999, which was a Wednesday, Hay's grandmother, Mrs. Kim, saw her granddaughter leave for school at around 7.30 a.m.

Hay was wearing a black skirt, stockings, black dress shoes, and a white jacket. And she didn't live far from Woodlawn High School, so she was there before first bell, which would go off at 7.40 a.m., signaling that first period started in five minutes. Now, Woodlawn High School used block scheduling, which means the days were divided into two different sets of block periods that happen on alternating days called A and B days. So when I was in high school, we did start off using the old scheduling, the good scheduling, I should call it, where we would just have all of our classes at the same time every single day, and they were shorter classes. And then in my sophomore year, we started block scheduling

and I hated it because the classes were way longer and it was confusing because I would always forget whether it was an A day or a B day and I'd always bring the wrong books and do the wrong homework. It sucked. But for Woodlawn High School, January 13th was a B day. Although some of the students' memories of that day make it seem as if they may have been getting confused about the scheduling as well because a few of them remembered having classes that would have only happened on a days so once again these are students who are like yeah we saw hey that day we saw it on that day this is what they were doing this is what they were talking about but if they're having a recollection of a different day, then it's not relevant. But we don't know what they're actually remembering. We don't know if it's important to that day because we don't remember. We don't know if they were remembering things that actually happened on that day. And it gets very convoluted. retention because this happens all the time. They have good intentions. They want to help. And in fact, they'll provide information based on a guess, like their best educated guess,

what they saw, what color jacket they were wearing, not to be misleading or nefarious, but just because they really want to help. And so they're trying to fill in the blanks. And that's why I've said this before. I always tell my witnesses, don't tell me what you think. Tell me what you know. And when I say no, I mean with 100% certainty, no guesses. I'd rather you say, I don't remember, then tell me something and me take it as a fact. And so this is something when you're trying to figure out what people actually saw, you not only have to find out whether they're being truthful or not, but also if they have any intention. So there could be something malicious or it could just be something where they're misremembering. And we're going to get into the fact where

there are people who say they saw certain individuals that day. And the problem is we don't know if they're remembering, like you just said, something from a different day, even though in their minds, they're certain it was on the day of Hayes' disappearance. So just add another layer to how hard it is to solve a case like this. And here's another place, though. Well, the first place that the police could have and should have done a better job. What they should have done is pulled security footage to see, was Haye leaving this classroom at this time? Was she in lunch at this time was she in lunch at

this time but they didn't do that what they should have done is gone and interviewed all of the teachers they didn't really do that either they just interviewed a couple of teachers and a couple of students so they weren't really like fact checking these eyewitness statements they were just kind of taking them as fact even though none of them really like made sense when put next to each other. So it did seem at some point that the police were picking and choosing which witness statements they thought were true. Like, well, that sounds like it probably happened that day. But this girl, I don't think she actually saw them that day. She must have been seeing them a different day. And so they were just sort of like omit certain witness statements. And then what does that end up doing must have been seeing them a different day. And so they would just sort of like omit certain witness statements.

And then what does that end up doing? It ends up creating a narrative that one or a couple of people think happened. And they are, you know, confirmation bias, putting in the witness statements that they think create the story that they believe happened. Major problem. And it's not like this is a one off and it never happens. You do have situations where law enforcement goes into it with an opinion or basically they already know what happened. Now they're just trying to fill in the blanks in between.

They know the beginning. They know the end. They just need the supporting evidence. Now, in anything that doesn't support their narrative, again, something else we've talked about as an investigator, you look at every single angle. And if you think something's the case and you find information that deviates from that you got to follow it follow it regardless of how reluctant you may be because it's not what you thought and that's why

investigations like this can be very demoralizing because you really feel at the core you know what happened and then there's something that smacks you right in the face and tells you with a high degree of certainty that you're wrong. You got to check the ego and follow it wherever the case takes you. And to your point, in this situation, you have information where even if you don't believe that the police were being criminal in nature, where they're actually doing this because they're bad people. To your point, they believe they got the guy. And so anything that people are uncertain about that doesn't support their understanding of what happened, they're going to cough it up to him misremembering what happened. Ah, you know, don't worry about it. You probably

got that date wrong. So at minimum, it's bad police work. At worst, it's this deliberate intention to hide exculpatory evidence that could exonerate someone because you have it out for them. So two ends of the spectrum here, both not good. Yeah. Without supporting evidence, you can't really take anything that anyone says and just put it on the timeline. We can because we're just podcasters talking about what people have said. But as a cop, as a prosecuting attorney, you can't just be like, well, that sounds right and that doesn't. So, you know, let's fill in the blanks here. And that's what it does feel like a little bit that they did. But even though both Adnan and Hay were in the magnet program, they did not have first period together. Adnan had photography and Hay was in French,

but it did look like Adnan's photography class was right across from a set of stairs that would lead to the lower floor where Hay's French class was. Now, Hay was not an actual student in this French class. She performed duties as the student assistant to Hope Schaub, the French teacher who was going to be accompanying Hay and other students on a school trip to France the following spring. Now, according to Ms. Schaub, every day between 7.30 and 9.15 a.m., Hay would come to her class, room 309, and either do some advanced French learning independently, or she would help Ms. Schaub grade assignments or things like that. And it would typically only be Hay, Ms. Schaub, and the French department chair, Mr. Chris Parker. It's believed that on this day,

Hay and Adnan had a conversation by the steps that were near his photography class, and these are the same steps that Hay would take to get to room 309. And a student named Krista, who was in the magnet program and who had known both Hay and Adnan for the four years they'd been in school together, she testified that she was in Adnan's first period photography class and that he was on time for school that day, which was unusual because he was typically late. Krista remembered Adnan asking Hay for a ride home after school and Hay said, no problem. Now, this small detail has been contested and questioned constantly. Why would Adnan ask Hay for a ride home after school? After Hay went missing and her family called the police, Officer Scott Adcock of the Baltimore

County Police Department called Adnan on the evening of January 13, 1999. And Adnan said that he had seen Hay at school and she was going to give him a ride home, but he'd gotten held up. And by the time that he got to where they were supposed to meet, he assumed that Hay had gotten tired of waiting for him and she had just left. When Sarah Koenig of the Serial podcast spoke to Adnan from prison, he told her he would have no reason to ask Hay for a ride home because he had his own car at school that day. On the following years, I guess Adnan seems to have stopped contesting the fact that he asked Hay for a ride that day. Rabia Chaudhry does refer to this moment in the timeline in both her book and her podcast

Undisclosed. So it seems that, you know, I guess Adnan did ask Hay for a ride that day or he doesn't remember if he did or not. But that brings us to the question, why would he do that if he had his own car at school? Why would he do that if he had track practice after school, which ended up being his alibi? Why would he deny asking her for a ride when the police called him on the evening of Hay's disappearance and why would he still be denying it years later when he was talking to Sarah Koenig? Is it possible he just forgot that he had asked or was he scared that it made him look guilty once he found out she was missing?

You know, I'm not sure but many of Hay and Adnan's friends and classmates said it wasn't unusual for Hay to give Adnan a ride after school even after they broke up and reportedly Adnan did like to go home after school and change before going back to school for track practice. So Krista was interviewed by the Serial Dynasty podcast, and she said, quote, even after they broke up, she still referred to him as one of her best friends. They still talked all the time. So it was just that the friendship was still there, but the relationship was not. You know, it was hard, I think, for him a little bit just to know that she had moved on right away. But like I said, they were still very

close. So if one needed something non-relationship wise, like, you know, when Hay's car broke down and she needed help, she would call it none, even though they weren't together because they still looked out for each other. They still cared about each other a lot. End quote. So I'm going to be asking a couple of questions throughout tonight, especially with this timeline. And just so you guys have a little bit of a look inside my mind as i'm on the screen sometimes and you see my eyes wandering i don't know the details of this case i know certain things but not all so i'm treating it as if i'm the investigator and the first thing i'm trying to do is narrow down the window when the incident occurred when when hay was taken or when she was killed. So it might seem redundant and it might

seem a little bit of overkill for a podcast, but I'm going to ask anyways, just to make sure. So I just want to confirm Stephanie that going into this, Hay was seen by her grandmother leaving the house in the morning. She was seen at school by multiple individuals. I know some things that were heard that day are disputed, but from what we know, there's no dispute over the fact that Hay was in school from the time it started to the time it ended. So we know we're narrowing down the window. It's still going to be a decent size, but I just want to confirm there's no discrepancy as far as, well, Hay wasn't seen after lunch ever again. She was in school that day from what we know. She was in school that day. There's tons of discrepancies, but that is ever again. She was in school that day from what we know. She was in school that day.

There's tons of discrepancies, but that is not one. She was there. Yeah. And she's, it's believed by all parties, whatever side of the aisle you're on, that she left school that day when everybody else did. Is that fair to say? Okay. No.

Okay. And so, and to dive back in real quick, because I know we have to take our break. This, this thing, I think you bring up a great question. If it's something that was a common behavior for Hay to bring Adnan home and then maybe bring him back so they could talk, hang out, whatever they wanted to spend time with each other. And they did this before and after the, the breakup seems pretty reasonable. Might not be reasonable for us.

Like why would someone ask for a ride home when they have a car? That's fine. But maybe it was common for them. One thing I might've missed, you had mentioned the room 309 that she would go to this class and grade French papers. And you said that there was a, allegedly they were having a conversation on the stairwell. Are we to, are you, were you saying that she didn't make it to room 309 that morning? even though she normally did not well, so so it's complicated but

Hope Schwab basically who was the French teacher said that that he would be there every morning And she couldn't remember if she was there that morning, but she was at school So she probably definitely was there, you know, it's not intended It's not an attendance keeping situation because she's not an actual student. And it's usually just a couple of people in there. But yeah, hope, hope the French teacher said she probably was in there. But like, I couldn't say for certain or I don't have any attendance thing to like prove that she was there. No, there'd be no reason for her not to be there that day. And this is something that poses the problem that you pointed out, which is when you're interviewing these people months later.

Now, you know, for a teacher, every day kind of seems like Groundhog Day for the most part, right? So it's very hard to differentiate the days of the week. So when you're asking this teacher a month later, they have a good memory, but it's just like every other day. So they may go back and try to remember now that they're being asked for a specific reason but they're always gonna be a little cautious about it because they don't want to give you the wrong information so this is another situation where knowing whether or not she showed up at that classroom right that day is

actually very important believe it or not and it's for a pretty obvious reason if this is something that she did all the time and never really missed, and for some reason on this day, it was out of character for her not to show up, then you have to ask the question, why? Did something happen that day that threw her off, that made her not want to go, that there was a conversation that she had that made her upset and she just didn't want to talk to anybody. That conversation with Adnan on the stairs becomes more important if it actually took place. So this kind of circles back to the whole point of trying to interview as many people as you can on the day of the incident. And if it turns out not to be needed, that's okay. At least you have it. And investigators can go back and

look at statements from the day she went missing and know with a high degree of certainty that they're probably accurate because they were taken that same day. Exactly. And the conversation with Adnan is important because they believe that Hay was murdered in her car, right? That she left school in her car. And at some point in her car, she became the victim of a violent crime. And then her body was dumped and then her car was left somewhere. So if a non is asking for a ride, even though he has his car at school, even though we're going to find out later, is his car at school? Because his friend Jay has his car. Right.

So maybe that's why he needs a ride, which would make a lot of sense. But that still makes him a person that could be potentially in her car after school, which is the place where the murder happened. So that's why that conversation is important, regardless of whatever else she did throughout that day. I agree. No, it would be it would be advantageous to know whether or not they left together. But we'll get there. All right. Let's take our quick break. We'll be right back. So second period started at 9.20 a.m. and this was English class with Miss Efron. Adnan, Hay, and their friend Stephanie would also be in this class. And it was Stephanie's birthday that day and Adnan had gotten her a little stuffed reindeer as a birthday present that he left on her desk. Now, remember, Stephanie is friends with Adnan and Hay. That was the one he danced with at the junior prom. And Stephanie is also the girlfriend of Jay Wilds, who's going to become important soon. Now, Ms. Efron mentioned to the police that Adnan was

not doing well in English at that time, and she believed that hers was the most academic class he was taking. Adnan had missed several classes, he was not turning in assignments, and Ms. Efron of her heart with the stipulation that Adnan got his missing assignments to her after Christmas. Now, here's where things branch out and get complicated. And we introduced two events that allegedly happened on January 13th, 1999, a television interview and a wrestling match. So there's this woman, Inez Butler. She was an employee of the physical education department at Woodlawn High School, and she made several claims about that day, but her story changed a lot from her initial police interview to her trial testimony. First, Ms. Butler claimed that Hay had come to her classroom during second period

to get a set of keys that opened a specific room where Hay's lacrosse uniform was. Reportedly, Hay was being interviewed by Channel 36, which was a Baltimore public school television station, for winning athlete of the month, and so she wanted to get her lacrosse uniform to change into for the interview. So Adnan and Stephanie were both in Hay's second period class, and so was their other friend Debbie, and no one remembered Hay leaving class early that day. No one remembered her getting up in the middle of the class to leave or coming in late. Yet, a Nez Butler story puts Hay in her classroom during second period. So once again, this doesn't make a lot of sense. And then continuing on, after second period, lunch started at 10.40 a.m.

And Hay sat at a table with her friends during lunch, and her friends included Becky and Stephanie. And they both remembered Hay being at lunch and not leaving during the lunch block, which would have gone from 10.40 a.m. to 11.10 a.m. when third period started. So Becky said that she sat next to Hay at lunch. She remembered that Hay was a bit quieter than usual, so she asked her if everything was okay, and Hay gave her a small smile and said she was just thinking about Don. Becky and Stephanie also remembered having a conversation with Hay about the stuffed reindeer that Adnan had given Stephanie during second period. So they were sure that it was this day that Hay was with them in lunch because they were talking about the reindeer. And that's when Stephanie got the reindeer from Adnan, the same

day Hay went missing. However, the athletic director, Ralph Graham, would later tell police that on January 13th, 1999, he had several students in the athletic wing for a meeting with Channel 36. These students were being interviewed for Student of the Week, but Hay and one other student were the only ones being interviewed for Student of the Month. Graham claimed that the interview process lasted from 9 a.m. until approximately 1.30 p.m., and the last time he saw Hay was in the hallway outside of where the interviews were happening and this was around 1.30 p.m. as the interviews were wrapping up. Now this interview did end up airing on Channel 36. How about any school activities while you're here? I

played field hockey for two years. I've played lacrosse for two years and also managed voice wrestling. Hmm that's a lot to do. Do you have time to have a job while you're doing this? Yeah, I try to manage my schoolwork and my after school work. So many people have pointed out that during Hayes' portion of the interview, which like I said, is very short, there's a clock on the wall behind her and it shows the time as being between 1030 and 1035. And we can assume that's a.m. because, you know, she was at school. So if Ralph Graham, the athletic director, saw Hay in the hallway at 1.30 p.m., that would mean she'd been in that area and not attending her regular classes from 10.30 to 1.30. Yet,

she was seen by her friends at lunch, and she had AP psychology with Ms. Paoletti during fourth period, which started at 12.55 p.m. Not only was Hay in this class, but so was Adnan, and Hay was not marked absent or late to this class, although other students were, such as Adnan, who walked in at around 1.27 p.m., and another student, Mac, who walked in around 2 p.m. So the big question was for a long time, like, did this interview happen this day? You know, how could she be in two places at once? How could she be in the athletic wing being interviewed on camera for Channel 36 and be sitting with her friends at lunch and sitting in her psychology class? And I remember

when I initially heard this, I was like, well, maybe because it was a school sanctioned thing, her teacher didn't mark her as absent. But then, you know, the teacher was asked and the teacher was like, no, she was definitely here. And all the students in the class were like, yeah, she was here. She didn't leave these classes. So it was confusing and efforts have been made to locate the original Channel 36 broadcast to figure out what time Hay was interviewed, you know, use the raw footage to get that data and see what time the camera was on and recording her and what day the interview happened on. Because according to two adults and educators at Woodlawn High School, the interview took place without a doubt on January

13th, the same day Hay went missing. Now, if that was true, does that mean the recollections of all the students who claimed to have seen Hay and Adnan have a conversation about a ride after school or who claimed to have seen them in classes need to be called into question? But there's an answer for this. Let's continue on before we dig into that too deeply. Well, I got a question for you. What is it? I got a question for this. Let's continue on before we dig into that too deeply. I got a question for you. What is that? I got a question for you. You described what Hay was seen wearing that day for school.

What's she wearing in the video? Her lacrosse uniform. That's right. So why is that important to me? Well, it's important because we do have this educator earlier in the day saying that she came down to get her lacrosse uniform. Well, we have her grandmother saying that she didn't leave for school in her lacrosse uniform. So at some point during the day, she changed her outfit. So to me,

that does give some credibility to at least a portion of what that educator saying as far as, hey, she came down here to grab her lacrosse uniform because she wanted to wear it during the interview. As far as these students, I think this goes back to what I said earlier. It could be the wrong day. I know it was her birthday. You would think she would remember what happened on her birthday, and then you have the teddy bear. I do think that gives it some credibility. And maybe there's a world where I know for me as an athlete in high school, sometimes I'd have things, obligations I'd have to do for the sports team, but I'd be in and out of class. I'd bounce from the lunchroom because I was hungry, go back to the interview. Just because she's seen recording at 1030 on the clock in the background

doesn't mean she was there the whole time. Being a young kid, she might've wanted to go hang out with her friends, have lunch, come back, whatever the case may be. There is a world where both witnesses, both sides of the aisle are right to a certain degree the one thing i don't understand no there can't be they can't be if it says 10 30 to 10 35 and lunch was at 10 40 and they all said she was there at lunch sitting next to them and talking to them and that she was there the whole time both things cannot absolutely have happened at the same time that's why i said that's why i said to a certain degree yeah because to a certain degree they could be telling the truth and she could have been there but the part

where they're misremembering is the part where they were she was there the whole time she may have done the interview and showed up at lunch at 10 45 and then she was there the whole time. She may have done the interview and showed up at lunch at 10 45. And then she was there the whole time. She could have been ending. I mean, listen, we've all been interviewed. It's pretty quick. So she's sitting there, she's doing an interview. Thank you for your time. Hey, have a good day. I would ask the students to question, what was Hay wearing at lunch? Was she still in her lacrosse uniform? Because we know that she was wearing a lacrosse uniform. We have video evidence of that. So what outfit was Hay wearing

when she was at lunch with you? Oh, she was in her school uniform. Well, that would be awful difficult to be in her school uniform because we have her on camera at 1035 in a lacrosse outfit. Well, she doesn't have a school uniform. Well, I'm sorry.

I'm describing it as a school uniform. I apologize. Okay, because I thought you were talking about her lacrosse because that would be like a school uniform. So nobody saw her in her lacrosse uniform that day. Right, so the only people who saw it is the video evidence we have. So to me, that would tell me she threw it on

for the interview and then took it off. For all we know, all she threw on was the top and then changed out of it. So I think there is a world where she threw it on for the interview, pulls it off. She's got to eat, right? And then she heads right to lunch right after. We could have been seeing the last 10 seconds of that interview before she changed out of

it and meets her friends at lunch. So that's what I'm saying. There could be a little bit of truth in what everybody's saying. And it may be the case where she did the interview quickly and then she got to lunch and then she went to class. That's possible. That's possible. So we'll see. We're going to get we're going to get into it a little bit more later when when some some other facts come out. But she she allegedly, you know, has lunch.

Then she goes to fourth period, which is psychology. Right. And then 2.15 p.m., fourth period ends, and that technically means that school's over for the day, you know, unless you have to stay after for something or you have track practice like Adnan or something like that. But once again, we can't be sure of what happened next because we have many conflicting statements from several witnesses. So a friend of Adnan and Hayes, who's's called Becky she claimed that she and Asha Pittman who if you remember that's Hayes best friend they witnessed another brief conversation between Hay and Adnan that happened around 2 15 or 2 20 p.m in the hallway apparently Hay and Adnan were walking

past each other Hay told Adnan you know listen I can't give you a ride home I have something else to do Adnan said, okay. He would just ask someone else. Hay walked towards the exit of the school and towards her car, and Adnan walked down the hallway in the opposite direction. Now, we do know that Hay actually did have some things to do after school, and she had to pick up her little cousin from preschool, and she was also scheduled to work at the LensCrafters in the Owings Mills Mall from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. that evening. But these plans had been made before the morning of January 13th, so once again, the question's asked, why would Hay have even told Adnan before first period that she could give him a ride home after school?

Did she think that she could run him home quickly before having to pick her cousin up? Did she forget she had to pick her cousin up? I mean, it's more likely that she probably was going to do it between because if school gets out at 2.15, her cousin didn't have to get picked up until I believe like 3.15. Then Hay could probably run it on home really quick. He could change or do whatever he had to do and get back to school before Hay had to pick her little cousin up. But apparently she had something else to do, maybe even before picking her cousin up. And that's a sort of unknown that we have to ask ourselves, what was she doing? Was she meeting somebody? Did she need to go somewhere? Because that's when everything happened. Whatever happened between her leaving school and her picking her cousin up is what ended her life.

So who did she meet? Who was she with? If that question's answered, then we know who killed Hayman Lee. But the thing is, she's only got a pager, right? And that pager's never been found, not in her car, not with her body. Did she get a page at some point after she told

Adnan that she could drive him home? And then she got a page during the school day, which changed those plans and made her feel like she had something else to do before picking her cousin up who paged her. We don't know because the police never pulled her pager records and the pager was never found. That's interesting. And I'll tell you my initial thought without having any of the details around it is you had mentioned earlier that hey seemed a little off and her friend asked her about it and she said I'm just thinking about Don and maybe there's something just throwing it out there for the people if you take what we have at face value she plans on giving Adnan a ride home but Don pages her or someone

else pages her for that matter during the day plans change she's got feelings for Don she's dating him so she's basically given that not in the boot to go see Don before she has to pick up her cousin so that is a plausible scenario and when you lay it out the way you did, if you're in the camp of believing Adnan's innocent, you have two witnesses who say, we heard Hay say, I'm not giving you a ride home. And Adnan had no issue with it whatsoever and was seen walking the opposite direction. So if not him, she's going somewhere. And I know you're going to get to the whole cousin part, whether she actually picked, is it a he or she, the cousin? I believe it's a she. Okay. Whether she picked her or not, but that's just my initial thought when you say that, when we talk about potential suspects, Don is definitely going to be someone.

And then there's always the variable of who, someone that we don't know about yet. Exactly. And yeah, Don is a big thing for a lot of people. We'll get there, but I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it. We'll see. We'll talk about it. Another friend of Hay's, Debbie Warren, also remembered seeing Hay after this. She said she saw Hay at around 3 p.m. by the gym. Now, during Debbie's first police interview, which happened on January 28th, 1999, Debbie said that at the time, Hay told her that she was on her way to the mall to see Don. But Debbie's story shifts slightly, and the next time she talked to the police, which was on March 26, during that interview, she claims that she and another classmate named

Takara saw Hay by the gym between 2.45 and 3.15 p.m., and Hay and Takara had a quick conversation where Takara asked Hay for a ride home, and Hay said she could not give Takara a ride home because she had to pick up her cousin from school. Debbie also claimed that before seeing Hay, she'd seen Adnan with his gym bag, and they talked about him going to track practice. And yet another person claims to have seen Hay that day at the end of school, and that person is Inez Butler, who once again has given many variations of what happened that afternoon. When she first spoke to the police, Ms. Butler told them that she had talked to Hay on January 13th and that Hay was upset because she was having problems at home. Ms. Butler claimed that Hay had mentioned wanting to contact her father

in California. Now, remember, in the first episode, I mentioned that Hay, her brother, and her mother had left Korea to live in the United States, but that Hay's father had remained behind. So when you hear about a father who's living in California, that seems to be in reference to a man that Hay and her mother lived with in California for six months during the year 1996, often referred to as Hay's stepfather in documentation, even though it doesn't appear that this man and Hay's mother were ever legally married. So maybe Hay referred to this guy as her father when talking to people like my father in California and people didn't know the entire story behind it. But Ms. Butler also told the police that Hay was the manager of the wrestling team and Hay had told her that she would not be at the wrestling match that evening.

So Inez Butler ran a concession stand for students that she would set up outside of the gym at the end of the day and the kids could like pull up and buy snacks and drinks. So when Inez Butler testified during the first trial at the end of 1999, she claimed that on January 13th, 1999, Hayes sped up, she parked in front of the gym lobby, she jumped out, she left her car running, and she went into the concession stand to get chips and a drink. She told Ms. Butler that she would pay for the snacks later when she came back to school to catch the bus, which would transport the wrestling team from Woodlawn High School to Chesapeake High School for a wrestling match. Now, Inez Butler said she saw Hay between 2.15 and 2.20,

and Hay would need to be back at the school by 3.45 p.m. to go with the team to the match, which started at 6.30 p.m. But in the second trial, Inez Butler testified again, but this time she said Hay would need to be back to Woodland High School by 5 p.m. in order to get on the bus to bring the team to Chesapeake High School for a match that would start at 7.30 p.m. And then later, after the serial podcast began coming out, another person came forward to sort of confirm Inez Butler's memories of a wrestling match. So this girl's name was Summer. She was the other co-captain of the wrestling team, and she was fairly new. So she'd be scoring the match that night, and she needed Hay's help to kind of guide her through and make sure she

was doing the right thing. Now, Summer claims that she saw Hay on January 13th around 3 p.m. and Hay had told her that she wasn't going to the match because she had other plans. But Summer convinced Hay to go to the match because she needed her help. Summer was very upset when Hay did not show up to the wrestling match that night. And this wrestling match was used basically as a fact by the police and the prosecution in their case against Adnan even though the whole thing didn't make sense and never made any sense first of all we know that haye was supposed to pick up her cousin she was also scheduled to work that night at lens crafters and haye had never missed a shift so why would she agree to go to a wrestling match?

Why would she tell Inez Butler she was going to a wrestling match? Secondly, Inez Butler claimed the match was at Chesapeake High School, but co-captain Summer said the match was against Randallstown. For years, and even throughout the Serial podcast, we all thought that this wrestling match actually happened. And this was also bolstered by a note that the police would later find in Hay's car. The note was addressed to Don, Hay's co-worker and new boyfriend. And the note said, quote, Hey cutie, sorry I couldn't stay. I have to go to a wrestling match at Randallstown High,

but I promise to page you as soon as I get home, okay? Till then, take care and drive safely. Always, Hay. P.S. The interview went well. page you as soon as i get home okay till then take care and drive safely always hey p.s the interview went well i promise to tape it so you can see me as many and as often as you want end quote so the police and the prosecution were sure that hay had written this letter to don on january 13th and that she just hadn't had a chance to give it to him because she had been killed. In her note, she mentions both the wrestling match at Randallstown and the Channel 36 interview, but for this note to have definitely been written on January 13th, it would have to be proven without a doubt that both the interview and the wrestling match were scheduled for that day

and actually happened on that day. And as I said, we can't pin down when the Channel 36 interview actually happened, but the Undisclosed podcast did a little digging into the validity of the wrestling match, and they found out that there was no wrestling match scheduled for January 13, 1999, not against Chesapeake High School or Randallstown High School. Now, Woodlawn had competed against Randallstown the week prior, on January 5th, and Randallstown High School did have a match on January 13th, but it wasn't against Woodlawn High School. That means it is likely and plausible that Hay wrote this note to Don on January 5th,

and the Channel 36 interview must have also happened that same day, and both the athletic director and Inez Butler were misremembering when the interview happened, as they were not interviewed by police until six weeks after Hay went missing. to visit with him and he was on lunch or something, so she went back to her car to write the note, but it's possible as she was doing that, Don pulled into the parking lot and she went to see him and decided to just stay at the mall because according to her credit card receipts on that day and time, January 5th, Hay made some purchases at the Owings Mills Mall, which would mean she had skipped the match at Randallstown, which would mean that co-captain Summer must be thinking about January 5th, not the 13th. And if that's the case, and if athletic director Graham, Inez Butler, and co-captain Summer are all thinking about the 5th and not the 13th, the timeline that the police and the prosecution used is flawed. And we don't really know when Hay was last seen or what time

she was last seen. You know, what's important to know is that Hay, she was said to usually leave school around 3 p.m. to pick up her cousin. But according to many of these witnesses, Hay appeared to be in a hurry to leave school earlier than usual at around 2.15 or 2.20. And the only person who remembered seeing her after this was Debbie, who claimed she'd been outside the gym at around 3 p.m. But Debbie could have also been wrong about that day because Becky and Asha saw Hay heading to her car right after fourth period ended. So it would be super helpful to know what time Hay actually left school and what had changed for Hay between first and fourth period, where she now didn't have time to give Adnan a ride home as she had promised. I'll tell you, this whole thing to me, and maybe as I learn more, it'll make more sense, but I'm really not understanding how they weren't

able to lock this down definitively. I don't see how it would be an issue to go to the news station, find out scheduling for that day. You would think there's a history of documentation where it says, hey, John and Jane, you're the videographer for this. You're the reporter. You're scheduled to go to the high school and interview these individuals on this date. And there would be some type of recorded history of what their assignments were on the day they were assigned. Yeah, in 1999, there probably was, but the police didn't look in 1999. But it almost sounds like this is still a question though right like as you and i are sitting here talking i i mean what are we i don't see how they wouldn't be able to defeat because there's a world

where everything you just said honestly makes it sound like it was january 5th right so it's like wow i'm sitting here thinking it's january 5th but there is a situation where maybe the there was another event that wasn't initially scheduled that was a make-up date for wrestling. Again, I'm throwing out just devil's advocate ideas here. It doesn't sound like that's the case. No, because she was scheduled to work. That's right. So it doesn't make sense. I'm just trying to think outside the box, but at minimum, I would feel like we as a community, as investigators,

would be able to quickly, within maybe an hour, go to Channel 36 and say, hey, listen, you have an interview that we have here that you did with the students at the high school. I need to know what reporters did that interview and what day they went to the interview? What day did they go and speak to these students? What's your schedule look like? What day were those reporters working? If it's not electronic, if it's not digital, is there a paper timesheet that shows when they punched in, when they punched out, who was assigned to that particular topic, who went out there?

I would feel like it would be not even up for debate when that interview took place, even if they went back six months later. Yeah, but years later when everyone else was trying to figure it out, that information was gone. And I think it would have been good for the police to get that information initially because you've got a young girl who's missing and you might want to look at the people she's been in contact with over the past week or a week and a half or even you know they thought it happened that day don't you think you know a bunch of reporters interviewing these high school girls and this high school girl goes missing don't you think that could potentially be

a suspect you know somebody who was introduced to her circle who had never met her before maybe became infatuated with her maybe just wanted to like you know attack her that could have been potential suspects, whoever interviewed her. It was just not followed up. Yeah. And I mean, that note is so compelling because you did give an explanation as to why she wrote it but never delivered it, which was that she ended up speaking to Don in person, right? Just never removed the note from the car. If we're to take for a second that it was written on the 13th, well, now that means before she delivered the note, something happened.

She encountered someone or she was with Don on the 13th. And that's why she didn't give him the note because he got in the car and they went somewhere. That's another scenario. But based on everything you just said, without having the case file in front of me, if I had to guess, I would say that it all seems like this happened on the 5th, not the 13th. That's my thought. What are you thinking? Absolutely. It happened on the 5th. Yeah. It just seems like everything is compounding to all suggest it was the 5th and not the 13th, which throws off everything. Yeah, exactly. It throws off everything. So let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back. And I want to talk about this a little more. Okay, we're back. Yeah,

I definitely think that the wrestling match and the interview with Channel 36 happened on January 5th. I don't understand why the police didn't, you know, solidify that timeline. This happens a lot in this case where we look at these things that should be so easy. I mean, these are a bunch of kids at school. There should be, every minute of their time should be accounted for, you know what I mean, by teachers, by security cameras, by a bunch of different things, by email and computer logins and stuff like that. Yet, it just seems like, what's going on at this place? You know, they're all over the place.

And there's tons of times where teachers will say like, oh, actually, I can't tell for sure if she was in my class that day or if he was in my class that day. And it's like, what are we doing here? How is this possible? This should have been very easy initially for police to actually go through and check and double check

to see if these stories made sense and these timelines made sense, but they didn't. And we'll find, we'll talk about it a little bit more, the same thing happened with Adnan's track coach. I mean, this kid's like about to get arrested for murder and this track coach can't even, you know, say for sure whether Adnan was at practice that night. Like, how does this happen? And then my next question is, well, weren't there other kids at track practice, like other students? Couldn't they say whether he was there or not? Can't we track one of them down and find out if they saw him there? Didn't the police do that? No, they didn't. And some of the information could be from the 13th and some may be from the 5th. So just for example, just to recap a little bit here, we have Becky and Asha supposedly that had spotted Adnan and Hay in the hallway and Hay says, I can't bring you home. And he says, no problem. Well,

if we're to believe that's the 5th, that's irrelevant to what we're talking about. That's a week prior. Right. And then we also have earlier in the day where they're seen on the stairs and allegedly a nod asked for a ride. She says, okay, well, if we're to believe that that happened on the 13th, maybe she didn't approach him later in the day on the 13th and say, I, now I can't bring you home. Maybe she actually did give him a ride home because some of this information that we're being told could be from the 13th, like the student testimony that she was at lunch all day. Because maybe what they're remembering, which was her birthday, was in fact on the 13th. And that was the day she got the teddy bear. You mean Stephanie, when Stephanie got the, it's her stuffed reindeer.

Oh, I'm sorry. A reindeer. I apologize. So the reindeer. Stephanie's birthday. And that's why I do believe that she was definitely at lunch because they have a specific thing from that day that they remember discussing. We were talking about Adnan giving me the reindeer.

So that's how I know it was that day. And she knows her birthday. Yeah. Whereas the rest of it is very like, well, when did this happen? And it's not that these kids are trying to be like, you know, try to be misleading. No, they're not trying to be problematic. But I mean, it is problematic when you don't know what day and the same for teachers as it is for students. Every day kind of feels like Groundhog Day, doesn't it? You go to school, you go to your classes, the bell rings at 215, you leave.

And how do you know it was that day that Hayes said, I can't give you a ride? Or how do you know that it was that day that it not asked for a ride? Who knows? Exactly. And I can see some of the problems in this case right now. Is the entire police report, like basically all the narratives that these investigators did over time, are they all publicly available? No.

Okay. I would love to have access to the internal database of all these reports because I'm not saying this was the case. This is not an attempt to defend them. But sometimes there are things that are in the internal reports that don't make it to trial, but they're just basically timelines of what police did. Not only that, in many instances, especially in 1999, a lot of investigators carried around the notebooks. It wasn't computerized at that point. I mean, some of it was digital when they got home, but a lot of it was in their notepads. So there may be a running log. I have all my books from police works when I was in law enforcement. So some of these things that we're crushing them for, as far as did they go to

channel 36? Did they follow up on this? I wonder if they did. I don't have any indication that they did, but I do wonder if one of them are watching this as I'm crushing them saying, hey, asshole, I did go to channel 36 and I confirmed it was January 5th. We just never said it publicly. So now it looks like- No, they used it in trial.

If they'd never said it publicly, why would in trial, they're talking about, Oh, wrestling match and you know, news channel 36 interview on January 13th in trial. So that was the way they built the case against Adnan is what you're saying. So as far as police is concerned and the prosecution, they believe everything you talked about tonight so far was January 13th. But what you're saying and what you're showing us is it might've all been from the 5th. So as you said, the entire case that they built around Adnan could be based on the wrong date. Dude, I don't see how it could be the 13th. I don't see how it could be. Well, some of it, some of it could, could we agree? Let's,

let's kind of go back for it because I'm sure there's a lot we're covering here. A lot of different testimonies, right? Is it possible? And you can just say yes or no if you want. Is it possible that, and I'm not going to say all their names again, because I'm getting confused with all the names, but is it possible that the students in the morning saw a conversation between Adnan and Hay on the 13th where Adnan asked for a ride and Hay said yes? Yes. Okay. So that's possible still, even to this day, that is possible. Is it possible

that throughout that day, Hay was in class, Hay was at lunch, they talked about the stuffed reindeer, nothing seemed completely out of the ordinary, and that still may have happened on the 13th? Yes. Is there anybody, based on what you said, that we know definitively saw a conversation on the 13th where Hay told Adnan, I can't give you a ride home. Well, they say it was the 13th definitively, but we don't know if it was the 13th. Correct. And that's the big holdup here, right? So some of it could be from the 13th. Was this conversation in the hallway from the 13th? Because what was her excuse for not being able to give Adnan a ride home? She had to do something.

She had to do something. She had to do something. And you brought up a great point, which is if that were the case, she would have known that ahead of time. Why would she tell him in the morning on the same day, I can give you a ride home? That wouldn't make sense. I think it would make more sense that those two interactions that were witnessed by other people, one of them didn't happen on the 13th.

Or as I said, they both happened on the 13th and somewhere between first period and last period, Hay was paged or somebody spoke to her and said, oh, why don't you meet up with me before you pick up your cousin at 3.15? Because Hay would normally not even leave school until three and then she would pick up her cousin. But here she is at 2.15 turning it on. I can't give you a ride. I got something to do. She's leaving school 45 minutes early. What happened in that 45-minute period? And that's where your other person comes in. That's where Adnan, not involved at all. He's at school with his gym bag and she's meeting up with Don or someone else for that matter. But we would assume at that point, it would have to be someone who had her pager number. Yes.

Probably not an extensive list for a 17-year-old. But once again, we don't know. I think it would be a very extensive list. Do you? This girl's always on the phone, man. She's always on the phone. She's talking all the time. And you know, they got pay phones in school.

So now someone pages you in school. I used to do all the time. My pager was baby blue. I get a page. I'm like, oh, guys, I have to go use the pay phones in school so now someone pages you in school i used to do all the time i patro's baby blue i get a page i'm like oh guys i have to go use the pay phone at school i felt so cool calling who my mom usually but yeah she's always on the phone so like i think a lot of people and we're gonna find out she's in chat rooms nobody talks about this stuff okay and i'm not over here saying like oh definitely wasn't a non but nobody talks about the fact that she's leaving school earlier than she's supposed to or earlier than she usually does. And she's in Internet chat rooms.

OK, and this was early AOL style Internet chat rooms. It's the Wild West. No protection. No like things in there to make sure anybody's keeping safe. So I know it makes sense. I think right now we still got a little bit more to go here tonight, but my, my takeaway so far is there's been many cases where you cover them with me and you're starting to go through stuff and I'm sitting here going, why are we cut?

Why, how is this case where it is right now? This is a slam dunk. This is, I haven't heard anything definitively yet that says, oh yeah, I see why he was locked up. This is cut and dry. Right now, one potential suspect or one person of interest would be Adnan, for sure, based on witness testimony, nothing other than that. And then there's also this person who she appeared to have been leaving school early to try to squeeze in a meetup before picking up her cousin. With this unknown person, you can make some assumptions that it would probably be a boyfriend

or something like that, someone who she would make that effort. But at minimum, it opens up the possibility that it was someone other than Adnan who was in her vehicle, which is kind of a big deal. Yeah, we call that reasonable doubt, folks. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, folks, we call that reasonable doubt. Definitely not enough to go put Adnan in handcuffs. I know we got a lot more to go that may strengthen that argument a little bit more. But yeah, right now I'm looking at this as an investigator going, oh man, this testimony we have is shaky. It could go either way.

And if you don't know definitively that it's good information, you got to basically throw it aside and start over again because it's not on us to prove that the witness is telling the truth. If they can't remember it, that's it. They're not going to get a stronger memory in a month or two if it's already been six weeks. Yeah. And if you can't find something that corroborates their version of events, then you can't. Toss it. Yeah, you got

to. Toss it. They did not do that. Yeah. And prosecutors are going off the investigators reports, which I'm sure the way they wrote them made it sound like it was definitive. What they had put in there had been corroborated, confirmed and was all exactly the way it occurred. So prosecutors are looking at these investigative reports saying, okay, this is what we're building our case on. And as you already laid out, they have built an entire case and got a conviction on something that at the foundation was wrong. Yeah.

I can see why people are outraged. Yeah. Fruit of the poisonous tree and all that. Yeah. And it wouldn't even be fruit of the poisonous tree in this case, because that would be something where it was seized under false claims. Something where there's a car, you don't have a probable cause to go into the car. You go in there, you find the murder weapon, right? That's bad. That's egregious. Murder weapon is fruit of the poisonous tree. Yeah.

Yeah. That's egregious at that point. Cause they're literally just going around the law to get what they want out of the car. But this, this is something more of a confirmation bias thing, right? Where the law enforcement, they're the gatekeepers of what makes the final report and what doesn't. And as you said earlier, they have all this information. Some of it makes sense for their timeline. Some of it doesn't. And I, coincidentally, the things that make sense for what they believe happened is what's in the final report for prosecutors to review. Not everything else that a lot of the Adnan's defense team would say was exculpatory evidence. Those are the things that didn't make the final report, didn't make it to trial. And that is a major problem.

Yeah, it's a big problem. they built a house on a cracked and like crumbling foundation and and you're not going to have a good strong case so but i mean they made it sound like a good strong case right yeah i can definitely see the argument though now for and i've heard it numerous times where law enforcement excluded potentially exculpatory evidence which is is obviously. So they left those things out because that would have raised a level of reasonable doubt at trial and they didn't want that. So they decided to omit those facts or at least admit those circumstances, that witness testimony. And I'm sure these witness statements, even though it was six weeks later, was probably

written on paper or taken into a computer database. Were those reports submitted to the prosecutors and given to the defense? Based on what I've heard, probably not. So it looks like some of them were, right? Because you can see some of them. You can see these handwritten notes, interviews and stuff, but I definitely don't see all of that where you're like, oh yeah, they'll definitely have stuff where it's like, oh, this is how I know this and this is where I got this from and blah, blah, blah. No, they don't have any of that. So I don't know if it exists, but I haven't seen it really. We're supposed to keep them.

Officers, whether you're a patrolman or a detective, you're supposed to keep your notebook. So like a lot of times you'll see patrolmen pull out like even now in today's day and age, you pull out your pocket notebook and you like write some notes. It's good practice. When we're training new officers, we tell them like, Hey, keep those books for, keep them in your locker for three to five years, because you may have an interaction with someone on a routine traffic stop and come to find out they they're implicated in a murder. And that traffic stop that you had with them, even though there was no ticket given or anything, you may be able to prove that they couldn't have committed that murder just by that short interaction. So it's always important to be able to go back to that notebook and say, on this date and time, I stopped Stephanie Harlow and she was with me from 315 to 325. Couldn't have been her. Damn, I don't speed. I didn't say you were speeding. It was DUI. It was DUI.

And we locked you up. We sent you to the can for the night. You were disorderly. I think we'd be together for longer than five minutes then. And in the report it said, you know who I know? I know Derek Levasseur. He ain't locking me up.

Call him. And then he called me and I didn't pick up. And you said, put her in the drunk tank. I said, lock her up. Teach her a lesson. Get her a jailhouse tattoo.

All right. So, I mean, obviously this goes without saying, but Hay did not show up to pick her cousin up at 315 from school. And so the school called Hay's uncle, Mr. Kim, let him know. And then Hay's relatives, you know, they're not even, they didn't even seem like, oh, we're pissed that Hay didn't pick up her cousin. It was like they knew that this was not like her. And immediately they started calling her friend saying, like, where is she? Because we're worried. And so one of the first people that they called was Hay's best friend, Asha Pittman.

And while we're talking about Asha, I do want to get something out of the way. It looks really bad for Adnan. But nonetheless, it is a piece of evidence in this case, and it needs to be examined. And I wouldn't even say it looks really bad, because like initially, I said, this looks really bad. But as I was thinking about it more and thinking like, why would I have done this in this situation? I could see a couple reasons. But anyways, after the homecoming dance in October and after being confronted at the dance by Adnan's parents, Hay was obviously very upset. And like we said, she broke things off with Adnan at the beginning of November. But as we do know, they would reconnect for a short time after that.

You know, they got back together. They're on again, off again. And then they would break up for good again in mid-December. But after the November breakup, Hay had written a note to Adnan that said, quote, I'm really getting annoyed that the situation is going the way it is. At first, I kind of wanted to make this easy for me and for you. You know, people break up all the time. Your life is not going to end. You'll move on and I'll move on, but apparently you don't respect me enough to accept my decision. I really couldn't give a damn about whatever you want to say. With the way things have been since

7.45 a.m. this morning, now I'm more certain that I'm making the right choice. The more fuss you make, the more I'm determined to do what I gotta do. I really don't think I can be in a relationship like we had, not between us, but mostly about the stuff around us. I seriously did expect you to accept, although not understand. I'll be busy today, tomorrow, and stuff around us. I seriously did expect you to accept, although not understand. I'll be busy today, tomorrow, and probably till Thursday. I better not give you any hope that we'll get back together. I really don't see that happening, especially now. I never wanted to end like this, so hostile and cold, but I really don't know what to do. Hate me if you will, but you should remember that I could never hate you." So I want to talk about this letter in general. But

before we do talk about that, let's talk about what happened with this letter. And apparently, you know, Aisha, who is Hay's best friend, was also friends with Adnan through Hay. And, you know, because they were friends and they were teenagers, Adnan apparently showed Aisha this note and they passed it between them during health class and they sort of made notes on it. And it was kind of like making fun of the whole situation, making light of it. And I get this, like a lot of people are like, oh my God, Asha is such a bitch. Like she said she was Hayes' friend, blah, blah, blah. But it's like they're teenagers and we've read Hayes' diary and we've read her notes and things. She could be a little dramatic. She could be like

very intense. And she, you know, reminded me a lot of myself at that age. Like everything had to be poetic and everything had to be like so, so deep and extreme. And a lot of teenage girls are like that. So I could see how Aisha and Anand were kind of like maybe, you know, joking about the intensity, you know, the words that Hay was saying. But Asha is going to be writing in pencil on this note and Anand's writing in pen. And that's how we decipher who's writing what on the notes. And Asha had written the comment, no I messages on the note. And when she was asked during the trial what she meant by that, she said, quote, in health class, we learned something about I messages. And when

you're mad at someone, you shouldn't say you make me mad. You should say I feel bad when you do this and so that it's not as harsh. End quote. The rest of the comments that Aisha and Adnan wrote on the note as they passed it back and forth during health class were in regard to Hay being pregnant. And it's never like explicitly said that she wasn't pregnant, but it's generally believed that Hay was not pregnant. Adnan and Aisha were just learning about pregnancy in health class, and they were goofing around. So Aisha wrote in pencil, here's the thing, Hay's pregnant. Adnan responds in pen, you should ask her to make a list of all her symptoms and compare it with the list on the overhead. In pencil, Aisha wrote, yeah, let me ask her, are your breasts tender? Something was written

in pen underneath that, but it was scratched out. And then in pencil, maybe she was pregnant. She had an abortion on Saturday while we went to Adventure World. So they had all gone on like a trip to Adventure World. I think it's like a theme park. And Adnan was there and Aisha was there and a bunch of other people, but Hay did not go. So that's what they're referring to. And in pen on the note, it says her clumsy self probably tripped and fell on the way to the clinic and caused an abortion. In pencil, it says you would never think she's pregnant. And every time I do anything with a guy, I think I am. And then in Penn, whenever you kiss a guy, you probably think you're pregnant. She's scheduled for sonograms and she's still in denial. So listen, Aisha's asked about this later and she's like, no, I had no reason to believe that Hay was pregnant at that time. We were just messing around. But yes, Hay did have a pregnancy scare earlier with Adnan and Aisha just wasn't sure whether or not Hay had told Adnan that she thought she was pregnant. So I guess you were right in the first episode and we were kind

of going back and forth. As long as what Aisha is saying is true, Hay and Adnan were having sex and apparently Hay thought she was pregnant at one point. I believe it. I see it's not wrong in any part there in high school. It happens. You know, I mean, as far as the note, just in general with the note itself, I kind of have multiple thoughts on it because on one side I can see where it doesn't look great for Adnan because it shows that maybe the. Oh, that's not the part that doesn't look good for him. Okay. We haven't got there yet. Okay. It seems like their relationship was a little bit more tumultuous than maybe certain people want us to believe and that it wasn't all, you know, gumdrops and rainbows after they broke up. However, we can't forget the fact that in December, which is approximately a month after this, Adnan showing up to check on her car for her to make sure she's OK.

Well, they get back together. Right. So she's saying in this note, like, oh, now I'm sure that what I'm doing is right. And I don't think we'll ever be able to get back together but they did get back together so it's kind of also an indication of like yeah she could be dramatic and you know maybe she's you know that's what you do in high school you test people like oh how hard will you fight for me you know like we're definitely not going to get back together like unless you want to you know kind of that confusing I just remember being reminded of how confusing high school was it was horrible in that sense but I

will say this note and you're saying there's more so I'm gonna let you get there without going too far off the rails here but I will say if this note was written to him on descent on January 12th I mean this is really not good because this could be a potential motive right you know he was angry after reading this etc but there's a lot that can happen and it appears that it did between the time this note was written and and before her her death so yeah this note had been written after the second breakup like the second breakup in that november december that's the last breakup before she starts dating don that's right you know legitimately and then before her death. So if that note had been written after

that final breakup where it's like she's literally saying like, I'm done and you believe her at this point because she did not resume a relationship with him and he's continuing to pester her and she's like, I can't believe you're doing this. Why do you keep pestering me? Why do you keep bothering me about this? That would be a different sort of scenario and to be honest this note being written before the first breakup the first november breakup it still doesn't necessarily mean completely that he was okay with the december breakup but it just is less of an urgency because of the time it was written and because they they sort of did get back together after this no yeah and i will say in adnan's defense this note can be taken a couple of ways it's not saying that he's being possessive or stalking her or you know following her it's saying that he's being

cold so that could be taken a couple of ways so that's her see she's saying she's being cold and hostile like she's feeling cold and hostile. I do think he was bugging her because she made it seem like whatever happened at 745 this morning, I don't think he was being cold. I think that she felt like she had to be cold and hostile in order to make him understand and to have him get the point. That's the way it comes off to me. Okay. So I get what you're saying. Your interpretation is her, could it be mutual? So hostile, so cold. So she's saying like, you know, I wanted this to be mutual and I wanted this to be something we both understood, but you're not getting it. And now, you know, I have to like not give you hope and I can't even be nice to you because

now I'm giving you hope that we'll get back together. And so this has to end so hostile and cold. I never wanted this. And she did reference and I forgot that word as you reread it there. Yeah, cold, but she did also say hostile. And that's not just indifferent because cold could be as interpreted as indifferent and we're just ignoring each other. Hostile is a different thing. So what that actually means, it's open to interpretation because as you mentioned, and this isn't anything negative for Hay or Adnan, they're teenagers, their idea of what's hostile, she could be just dramatizing what it really is.

It could have been something very innocent. But based on her perception, it was like the end of the world. It was like a big deal. So the thing that really kind of got everybody going is there's something written with pen on the first line of the second page of the note, and it says, I'm going to kill. So Aisha claims that when she and Adnan were passing the note back and forth during health class, those four words were not there. She basically says like, I don't, he did not write that when we were passing this note back and forth.

I don't know when he wrote that, but I did not see it. Looking at this note here, when you are having me read it in trial is the first time I have seen those four words on there. So that was kind of like a big thing. So people were saying like he wrote like I'm going to kill her like on this note. I don't see why he would do that. Like they were talking about I mean, this is a sensitive subject and I hate talking about it, but they were talking about abortion. You know, they were joking about abortion, which weird take, man. These kids, I don't know what the hell happened to kids. It's not something you really like make jokes about, but they were. And so maybe it was just a continuation of the joke where he was maybe going to be like, well, I'm going to kill the baby. And then he was just like, well, that is too far. And so he stopped and thought better of it and just didn't pass the note back to Asha after he wrote that. And he was like, oh, this probably is a little not funny. So maybe I'm going too far. I don't know. I just I don't know. You said it was brought up at court, right? They had Asha look at it at court. Did Adnan's defense team have any explanation as to why that was written on there? They deny that he wrote it at all? No, they just basically questioned like, oh, did you see him write it? You know, the basic stuff where it's like, you can't prove when it was written or who wrote it or stuff like that. Yeah. The presumption is that he wrote it, right? Because he was in possession of it. They were going back and forth. It was probably a similar pen. It looks like his handwriting and

it is a similar pen. Yeah. There you go. So, I mean, it's a little bit of a stretch, but based on what you see, it does look like he wrote it, but they're not trying to disprove it. All they have to do is raise doubt in the minds of the jury members. So that's what they were attempting to do at that point. And the fact that they didn't have an explanation for it, some may interpret that as, okay, he did write it, but we're not going to outright admit that. We're going to just try to raise the level level of doubt as far as Asia's recollection of whether or not it was there at the time that they were going back and forth with the note.

And that's that's their job. Yeah. And like I said, you also you can't prove why he wrote it. Right. It's it's a slippery slope. He could have said, yeah, I did write. I'm going to kill. But I didn't write it because I'm going to kill.

Hey, I was writing it for you. Can't prove why I wrote it. You can tell me what was in my head when I was writing this. So that is, you know, something that that was brought up. But, you know, it is what it is. Not great. Not great, though. Like you said, not great. Got to call it what it is. Not great. I don't I don't I don't think it looks great, but let's take our last break and we'll be right back okay so like i said when hay didn't pick her cousin up or show up to her shift at lens crafters her family began calling friends they called asia pitman asia called krista and krista mentioned like hey i saw hay and anon talking after school and hay told Adnan that she could not

give him a ride. So they were talking about this whole ride situation. And so the police were called at 5 p.m., and then at 5.15, a missing persons report was filed by Officer Adcock. The investigation would soon be handed over to Detective Joe O'Shea of the Homicide and Missing Persons Department. Now, in the files, there's also a report written by the Ennehe Group or Ennehey Group. And this is a private investigation firm run by a woman named Mandy Johnson. And according to the Undisclosed podcast, it's just Mandy Johnson. So it's like run by her and then it's just her who works there. And apparently she was hired by Hayes' uncle to look into Hayes' disappearance.

Now, the report that the Ennehey group that they wrote about this, it's undated. And, you know, the Undisclosed podcast does make a big deal of talking about the fact that this report is undated. However, using context clues, you know, we can assume it was written in January of 1999, since the report states that Detective O'Shea and Detective Park, who speaks Korean, Detective Park did, they were going to contact Hay's family and then arrange a meeting with them the first week of February. And this report claimed that Hay had spent some time in DeLand, Florida with her mother a few years back, and she enjoyed her time there. So maybe she had possibly returned. Additionally, the report states that there was a possibility that Hay's father may have reentered the United States and was living in California. And Hay may have been trying to get to California to see him. As I stated previously, this was not her biological father. It was like a father figure. And this whole going to California

thing became a theory, not only because Inez Butler had mentioned it, but because Hay's current boyfriend, Don, also mentioned it. And we'll talk about that in a moment. But I do want to point this out that there's a lot of people who say like, oh, from the get go, police suspected Anon and thought that, you know, he had killed Hay. And they were like harassing him from the beginning. That's not true. As far as, you know, I can tell, they definitely were looking into like, is Hay missing? Did she go to California? They talked to Hay's family members because she did have family members in California.

They talked to this man. They were looking at like hospitals. They were putting, you know, running her license plate through to see if it was coming up anywhere. So they weren't just immediately like she was murdered. And it was her ex-boyfriend Adnan who did it because he is a Muslim. So that's it. Like, let's go get him. I think they were initially interested in him when he came to their attention as they were interested in Don because Don and Adnan were in relationships with Hay. And when something happens to a person, a woman, you know, nine times out of 10, it's, it's her intimate partner. Am I right? I mean, I won't lock in the exact statistic. Usually it's someone they know, but I think you're right. I think there might have been some more inquisitive questioning going on to Adnan and to Don. And that may have been perceived by people in Adnan's circle as if they had immediately targeted him. And to be fair to them, from their perspective, that's all they're seeing so they don't know what else is being looked into at that time but as the investigation starts to develop and they start to explore these other

possibilities like she ran away went to california you start to look at airports and things like that you can start to rule certain things out and as they rule certain things out and then speak to witnesses at the school that's a whole different story right they start to develop a story about who was in contact with her they and then the context of those relationships and that's when they start to kind of narrow in on certain people couple that with some inconsistencies and add non-statements they might have drilled down on him a little further it may have been pretty quick where they started to focus on him we're not saying it wasn't but i do think it's fair to put out there that this didn't immediately she didn't go missing and they immediately went to adnan's house and said you did it there were some other possibilities they were exploring as well as i don't know if they were working with her

but there was a pi group that was also looking into the possibility that she had taken off, things like that. So it seems like while she was missing, it was never really clear cut like Adnan did this. It wasn't until they probably found her, right? That's my assumption when they're like, oh, had to be someone she knew. No, dude, they got an anonymous call when her body was found and they were like, you need to look into this dude, Adnan Saeed, like her ex-boyfriend. So that's what I'm saying. Up until the point where she was found, they weren't really drilling down on him. They didn't even know she was dead. They thought that

she could be out there. Yeah. I mean, it depends who you ask. Some people will say like, it looked like February 1st was sort of when they started really laser focusing on him and they do a whole other series of interviews and they're really trying to get a hold of him. They're asking him different questions. But I will say, like, I think I'm not going to say that there's no chance that a police officer who may have some certain biases may look at, oh, here's Hayes' current boyfriend, Don. He's a white guy with a job and he drives a nice car.

And then here's Hayes' other boyfriend, Adnan, and he's dark skinned and a job and he drives a nice car. And then here's his other boyfriend, Adnan, and he's dark skinned and Muslim. And he seems kind of sketchy. And we know how Muslims think about women. And, you know, maybe they leaned more towards him because of that, that prejudice. I can't say for sure that that's not the case. And it's possible that it was the case. It's just we won't, I don't think ever be able to prove it without you know beyond a shadow as the former cop here i will say that based on what you're telling me about them going forward with this this timeline that doesn't appear to be accurate like i said at minimum it's bad police work but there's a very real possibility that they chose to omit certain facts

and if that's the case and it does seem like it was it could be because they just thought they had their guy and they were going to stick to it and they were going to ride it out together and keep that in house or like you just said there were some biases towards adnan because of the way he looked and because of his religion where they targeted him because they had this perception of the Muslim culture and figured if somebody is going to do it, it's definitely this guy. We don't like the way he dresses. Did he wear the hat then as well at certain times? I know he wears it all the time now. Did he wear it back then as well?

I know we have pictures with it outed on. No, I don't think he did on like the day to day. But when he was like at mosque and things like that, yes, he would. Yeah. So if you have a, if you have a preconceived notion about this religion, you may not speak it openly, but you could definitely be looking at this person going, I don't like who they are and what they represent.

And if I had to take a guess at it, it would be this guy who would do something like this because he didn't get what he wanted and he doesn't respect women or whatever their assumption of that religion is. So we talked about it briefly in episode one. Most people got it. Some people were like, oh, here you are focusing on Adnan's religion. Not us. We're saying law enforcement may have done that. That's the accusation out there. And we have no reason to say with 100% certainty, that's not the case. But again, that's not what we're focusing on. That's just part of this case. And we would not be doing our job if we didn't. It's also what it seemed like Adnan and Hay focused on quite a bit too. I mean, it's part of the relationship. It's very relevant. It was a constant battle throughout the relationship. And I would say the reason that it ended. So, yeah, it's not like Stephanie and Derek are focused on it. It's like everybody else

involved in this case was focused on it. And I will say this, Inahe Group, the private investigation firm, they wrote an entire report about like Islam and, you know, the way that they treat women and like the violent tendencies and things. So like this is why a lot of people were like, what the hell? How is this even relevant? Why is this report even happening? And what does it have to do with, you know, Adnan and Hayy? Because we don't know that he that he did anything. You have no like proof that he did anything. So why is this important? So like, no, it's not us focusing on it. It seemed to be an important factor for everyone else.

That was making their, I agree, that was making their opinions based on something we're talking about in the context of what we know was happening between them. Some people are using it as a potential motive. And I really think that's flawed. And I'm not just saying it to hop on the relevant trend, but you could make the same argument for, and I'm Catholic, but you could make the same argument. We got priests out here molesting little kids that are Catholic. Doesn't mean all Catholics are bad. So I definitely think that presumption is flawed to assume that because Adnan is a certain religion, he's more prone to do something like this. And it does seem

like law enforcement, certain members of law enforcement and PIs may have been going that route based on what you're saying. So when it comes to people being upset about that, I think it's completely warranted. And so we're not against you guys on that. We agree. Or at least I agree. I think you do. No, I agree. And and if you're gonna use religion as a motive then you're not going to be looking at somebody like at none who wasn't super devout and who kind of did skirt the line like he was a good he was a good Muslim when his parents were watching because he wanted their approval and he wanted to be accepted but he also wanted to be a normal kid who was talking to girls and maybe smoking pot every so often and maybe drinking a little bit and living the normal

teenage life if you want to use that as a motive I would look at his parents before I would look at him, because clearly they were far more upset about Adnan being with Hay than Adnan ever was. Yeah, I feel and it might be a little premature, but I feel like if you're in the camp that believes Adnan did this Adnan did this Because he's a scumbag and he's a monster and he was possessive and jealous and he did this because he got emotional and did what? He did he didn't do it because of his religion if you believe that he did it Yeah, I would say if he did it it was because she broke up with him and he was mad They started dating somebody else right away. That's right. It doesn't have to be that deep doesn't have to be that deep

It could be a jealousy thing which couldn't jealousy and money. Yeah, That's right. It doesn't have to be that deep. It doesn't have to be that deep. It could be a jealousy thing, which can- Jealousy and money. Yeah, that's right. We've seen every ethnicity, every person of every color commit crimes like this for that reason. So I do think it's misguided to focus on someone's religion as a main motive when there's nothing in his past to suggest that that would be a motive for him when he's not living his life that intensely about his religion. Like you said, it's more so the optics for his parents than it is his foundational beliefs. Completely agree. And this NHA group report kind of continued on and it talked a little bit about what Hay had left behind and what she was doing before she left. So they said, you know,

she left her Korean passport behind. She left her diary behind. She hadn't picked up her last LensCrafters paycheck. There wasn't activity on her credit cards, things like that. There was a statement that she may have taken one of her mother's credit cards, but once again, there was no activity on that card that would show that she was using it. The initial investigation also showed that Hye was active in internet chat rooms, specifically Asian chat rooms. And on AOL, she listed her interests as movies, phone, partying, TV, music, and most importantly, Don. Under her likes, Hay wrote, looking in his blue-gray eyes, fast cars like his Camaro, driving to Bel Air, selling glasses, spending as much time as possible in the lab. And her occupation was listed as part in the lab, and her occupation

was listed as part-time sales, full-time girlfriend. So she's all in with Don, and obviously the first thing the police do is track down Hay's friends. This leads them to both Adnan and Don Klindenst, and throughout the investigation, the main focus is on these two individuals. Officer Adcock reported that he had spoken to both Asha and Adnan, and they'd both told him that Hay was in school that day. And as I said earlier, Adnan told him that Hay had been intending to give him a ride home, but he'd been running late, and he assumed that she left after growing tired of waiting for him. Now, the problem initially was that Don had an alibi, and this alibi was confirmed by a second person, his manager, but Adnan didn't have such a solid alibi. Now, Hay didn't show up for her 6 p.m. shift at the

Owings Mills Mall, and this was the first time she'd missed a shift without calling. The police went there to, you know, talk, to see about Hay and also to see if Don was there because they knew that he worked at that store as well. And Don's 22 years old at this point, by the way. I don't think I've mentioned that. It's a little weird because I think that Hay was, I don't think she was 17. She would have just turned 18 the past October because her birthday is October 15th, the same as my daughter, Nev. So she's 18 years old and she's dating a 22-year-old. And I just think it's weird when grown men date high school girls, but that's just my opinion. All right. So that's like strike one against him for me. But the police go to Lenscrafters to talk to Don and they're told like he's not there that day.

And actually on the 13th, the January 13th, he didn't work at the owing mills mall location he worked at a different location so another odd fact about don was the police tried to reach him that day that hay went missing but they couldn't get him on the phone until after midnight even though he claimed he had been working that night and he'd been home since 7 p.m so don's normal store like i said is the owing's mill mall store the same one that Hay would work at. But on January 13th, he worked at a different store, the Hunt Valley store, because one of the lab techs there had reportedly called in. They needed someone to cover for him. And when Hay says spending as much time in the lab as possible, I think she meant the LensCrafters

lab, you know, where they make like the lenses and stuff, because that's where Don worked. That was his job at Lens Rafters. Okay. So he worked and what's the timeframe in which he worked? You said that night, a different location, but he's apparently at that location from what time? So I'm going to get more in depth into that in a minute, but from 9 a.m. till like 6. 9 a.m.

to 6 p.m. Got it. So when Don spoke to the police, he told them that he and Hay had just previously started dating and they'd actually seen each other just the night before at his home in Bel Air, which would have been January 12th, 1999. Don said that Hay seemed normal and in a good mood, despite the fact that she and her mother had argued earlier that day about Hay breaking curfew. Don claimed that Hay had

expressed a desire to go and live with her father in California and, quote, when asked how she would accomplish this, Mr. Clendence seemed to think she would either drive there or leave her car in the satellite parking facility at BWI Airport and fly by commercial airline to California. He did not appear as enthused about the relationship as Hayley's diary indicated that she was, end quote. So Don told police that Hay had left his house around 10.30 p.m. She got back to her house at 11.30 p.m. and then he paged her to make sure she got home okay. She called him back, and then they stayed on the phone until about 3 a.m. And a few things happened during this phone call. First, Adnan had tried to call Hay at home a few times before she got there,

and he was finally able to get a hold of her during her call with Don, and apparently his purpose was to give Hay his new cell phone number. Now previously, like we talked about, Adnan had only used a pager, but just the day before, he'd gotten a cell phone. So, Hay took the call, she wrote the new number in her diary, and then she returned to her phone call with Don. Now, in her book, Adnan's Story, Rabia Chaudhry claimed that before going back to her call with Don, Hay had asked Adnan if he thought they would ever get back together, and he told her he didn't think so, that they were better off as friends. I don't know if I believe this, right? So once again, a person doesn't have to be guilty to lie. Adnan could know that he's in deep shit

by the time he gets arrested, and so he starts making things up that make it seem like he was much more okay with the breakup than he actually was. A lot of people reported that he was very upset about the breakup after it happened. One of his close friends, Mac, said he was basically distraught about it. So maybe he's like, it looks bad if I'm this broken up about this relationship, and then she goes missing, and then she's dead. So I need to make it seem like I was super casual and super cool and okay with the breakup. Otherwise, I'm looking suspicious here. So he could have just, I don't see that really happening. She's on the phone with Don. She's like writing about how she's obsessed with him.

He's her soulmate. And then Adnan calls and she's like, hey, so you think we could get back together someday? And he's like, no, no, hey, this is better that we're just friends. It's possible, but it's also convenient. And he never mentioned this to the police. It just sort of came out in Rabia's book. So he probably told that to her. Yeah. Just as we say this before, as being people who were in high school herself, as you mentioned, she was out on a date, a late date with or out with Don that night. They get home, they've been together all night. and we've all done it where you're puppy love,

you're not only with that person all night, but the minute you get home, you wanna stay on the phone till 3 a.m. We've all done it. That's not someone who's thinking about leaving that person. And you said something there, I don't know if it's confirmed, but sounds like Adnan was calling a couple times

throughout the night while she was out. So he's expecting her to be home, she's not. He's calling her multiple times until he finally gets her And we're to believe that the only reason he was calling her that late at night multiple times Was to say hey, here's my new number in case you want it, by the way Yeah, he could I could have waited I could have waited till the next day This is the night before she disappears too. Yeah, I think I, I think there's something where we're not going to go too far with it, but I, I, I would assume most reasonable people who have grown up just like us would say that this seems like there's more here.

And unfortunately for us, there's only two people who know what happened on that phone conversation and one of them's dead. And the other one was charged with her murder so it you can't take his word for it not saying he's a liar but you can't take his word for it because he has way too much to lose by saying oh no i was like where were you who were you with what were you doing why are you home so late i know your curfews earlier than this you were out with him all night. What were you guys doing? I mean, that's, that seems reasonable to say that. And I'm not saying that because I know Adnan, I'm saying that because myself included as a, as a teenage boy in

high school, those are the types of conversations you would have. I, he might've used again, there's always some truth to it. He might've used his reasoning for calling her so many times to say, Hey, I wasn't checking up on you. I just wanted to give you my new cell phone number and you weren't even home. Right. That's possible. So there's probably some truth in there and there might've been a conversation about their relationship. I don't think so, man. It's a very short call. I think it was like under three minutes, You know, I just don't see her clicking over. Hey. Oh, hey, it's me.

This is my new number. I have a cell phone. Oh, that's great. So like, well, I have you here. What's going to happen with us? We're going to get back together one day. It just feels like something you work up to in a conversation, not something you just like boom, boom within three minutes.

And again, if that was on her mind, she would have been calling him. Yeah. I don't think he would have been calling her. And she was like, oh, hey, by the way, glad you called. Well, I'm on the phone with another guy. I was getting, I wanted to get around to asking you, are we gonna get back together or what's going on there? I mean, it's possible, but it's not probable.

We have to say it's possible, but I think it's okay to say. And even by us saying this, it sucks that we have to keep qualifying all this, but even the fact that we're saying this and we're saying that there's a very strong possibility here that the conversation was a little bit more hostile a little bit more questionable as far as what she was doing who she was with who she was on the other line with whatever it might have been still doesn't make adnan a killer but it does raise questions that could make you raise an eyebrow as to Adnan's motive the next day. Could he have been involved somehow? Would he have a reason to want to hurt her?

Those would be natural questions to ask. And by Adnan saying, no, it was just her asking me if she wanted to be with me, he could potentially be trying to squash that potential that you would ask those questions. You wouldn't expect him, whether he did it or not to admit they had a fight the night before that would be pretty dumb on his part whether he's guilty or not because he knows how it's going to look i completely agree and like we don't know and once again doesn't mean he did anything wrong but 100 it just doesn't feel probable okay that's all no three you said three minutes yeah less than three minutes and and he was calling her multiple times yeah i'm not i called her twice before she got home the third time he got her and yeah so he knew she wasn't home and he probably put deduced that she was

with someone and if he knows don he probably assumed that she was with him yes so hay comes back from her call with adnan and then don claims that Hay tried to convince him to call into Woodlawn High School the next day pretending to be a relative of hers and say she was sick so that they could spend the day together. Now, this is another hint that the Channel 36 interview did not take place on January 13th because Hay would not have missed school on the day that she knew she was being interviewed for Athlete of the Month. But I almost don't even know if I believe this, because he was scheduled to work the next day. So, like, how long would they have been able to hang out unless she just planned to, like, hang out at LensCrafters all day with him, which I suppose is possible. But Don said he was able to convince Hay that this was a bad idea. And like I said, it's very likely Hay was just fantasizing anyways, because she rarely missed school.

She was probably just saying it like, oh, you should definitely do this and then we can spend all day tomorrow and you can call into work and we can just stay in bed all day. You know, kind of the thing that you do, but you never really follow through with it. So before getting off the phone, Hay told Don that she would call him after her shift. The next night. They said goodbye, and that was the last time that Don spoke to her. Now, after talking with Don, the police contacted the manager of the Owings Mills Mall Lens Crafters location,

who informed them that Don had worked at the Hunt Valley location on January 13th. He'd arrived at 9.02 a.m., he'd taken a lunch between 1.10 and 1.42 p.m., and he'd left work at 6 p.m. Now, it seems that the police missed a couple of steps in their investigation. Understatement of the year, they never followed up with anyone at the Hunt Valley's LensCrafters location to see if Don had actually been there on January 13th. They never obtained his time card records for that day. And they also never asked Don about the note found in Hayes' car that indicated she was going to see him that day, even though the police believed that note had been written on January 13th. So you'd think that if, you know, she was planning on seeing Don and she wrote him a note that she never delivered, the police might question whether Don was more involved, but they never asked him about that. It was not until Adnan Saeed's first

lawyer filed a subpoena requesting that LensCrafters produce all employment records for Don that they found out he had worked the hours on the day he went missing. They actually found this out at that point. They didn't just take his word, his manager's word. But the police seemed to have just taken the manager's word. They said he'd been loaned out to the Hunts Valley store that Wednesday and the following Saturday. But it also turned out that the general manager of the hunt valley store was a woman named anita baird who also happened to be don's mother so people wondered if she could have doctored the time cards and made it look like don was there when he in fact wasn't now we're going gonna get deeper into this later on but

other people have said they saw him there that day however another person who wants to remain anonymous has said that he saw Don and Don had like bleeding hands and his are his hand was wrapped up and things like that so you've got all sorts of once again conflicting statements but there were several people who saw Don working at the mall store or at the the LensCrafter store the Hunt Valley store that day so I mean he definitely was there but also yeah his mother probably could have definitely doctored the the punch-in records like she could have punched in for him she could have punched out for him things like that if she

was protecting him but like would she do that if she didn't know exactly what was going on? This is something that people really hang on to, the fact that he worked there and that his alibi can basically only be confirmed by his mother. But once again, I'm sure there was surveillance videos. I'm not sure if the police gathered those. I'm going to go ahead and say they didn't or else this wouldn't still be a topic of conversation. You know, maybe I'm a little confused and maybe you're going to clarify it for me right now. But here's my issue with the whole thing. I know the day in question of Hay's disappearance, it's kind of confusing, right? We don't really know about Hay on the day of her disappearance. But I would assume, and it is an assumption, that if she had gone missing on the 13th and she had not been at school the entire day, that would be in the initial report saying, yeah, she's missing.

She didn't pick up her cousin at 315. And in fact, she wasn't in her last three classes today. So you got to start the investigation there. You may correct me, stop me right in my tracks if I'm wrong, but I'm operating under the assumption that whatever happened to Hay happened between 2 p.m. on the 13th, because I'm assuming she was in school that day. So she left school around that time. That's even a little early, but I'm just making the window as big as I can, that she left school at approximately 2 p.m. and she did not pick up her cousin at 3.15. She didn't make it there. So something had happened. If she was just out with a friend or with someone she enjoyed being with, she still would have had someone else pick her up or whatever the case may be.

She didn't make it there because she was already dead or incapable of making it there. So whatever happened to her happened within a little bit over an hour. And if I'm right, then it doesn't really matter if Don was at work or not, because by all accounts, he was done with work by 1.42. So if he's done with work at 1.42 PM, he could easily meet up with, hey, after work as she's getting out of school. Am I wrong in saying that? No, he's not done with work. That was his lunch break. I thought you said he worked from nine to one. What time did he work till? He worked from 9.02 till 6 PM and he took a lunch between 1.10 and 1.42. Okay. So he took lunch between,

so he was on lunch break from 1.10 to 1.42? Yeah. Okay. So that's a different story then. So overall, I just think that if Don was not at work, as you already brought up cameras, I mean, this is 1999, not, you know, 1969. There's definitely going to be some type of electronic history that they can do. I know it's later in the game, but it does seem like Don was at work. And if he was at work, I do think that would classify as exculpatory evidence. Yeah. You can bring up some conspiracies as far as how deep does this go? How many people were involved? How many people covered up what Don did? And yeah, you're open to that opinion. But I do think if we're to believe what's been confirmed or what's been found by law enforcement and by Adnan's team, then Don's probably out as a potential suspect here. And that's what you

would classify as exculpatory evidence. He can't be in two places at once. Now, if his lunch break was at 210 to 242, now we got an opening there. Now we got an opening. And maybe that is the case. Maybe those times were off, but I really think that's a stretch when you start including people who wouldn't have an incentive other than his mother to start doctoring these documents in order to cover up for this guy. Because although the mom was the general manager, there would be subordinates underneath her that may come forward and say, hey, listen, I don't know why she's lying for him, but he wasn't here. Now, unless all LensCrafters is in on it, I think someone would probably, I'm assuming he wasn't the only person working that day. That's what I'm saying.

He wasn't, there's always tons of people working at LensCrafters and in the lab where he is, if you've ever seen a LensCrafters, they're all sitting behind like some plexiglass and they're all like sitting in the lab together. It was like five, six, seven people in there at any given time. So yeah, once this all came out and they're like, wait, hey, Don, we know these people. Actually, he wasn't at work that day. Like somebody would say something. And that just never happened. So, I mean, unless he snuck out and, you know, what's the motive to even like sneak out of work to just kill somebody?

But how far was his body found from LensCrafters? Oh, I don't I have no idea. It was not it was not far from the school. I'll tell you that. I think it was three miles away from Woodlawn High School, but the Cedar Mills location, probably way further. Yeah. and having it confirmed by Adnan's team leads me to believe that it's probably accurate. And Don's probably ruled out as a person of interest. Doesn't mean Adnan's guilty because we've only talked about two people so far. All it means is that the route of Don being the killer,

it's dwindling and it's dwindling really fast. Yeah. That doesn't mean that Adnan's a killer. It just means that I definitely, I don't think it was Don, but But we were we're going to kind of go deeper into that later in the in another episodes when we talk about alternate suspects. And Don's going to be on that list. I mean, he doesn't want to be on that list. But, hey, he is because he was dating her at that time. And I will say that. And this was said in the police report. He did not seem to be as into the relationship as he was. but Hay was very, very into the relationship. Like she was hot and heavy and intense about it very early on. So he's an older guy. He's probably like, what the heck is going on? Like, I just met this cute girl at work and all of a sudden, like, we're dating, you know, and we're like together and we're talking on the phone until three in the morning. And how did this happen? It just seems like he may have been you know a little more like reserved about it

than than she was because she's younger yeah and when we do think about motive i'm glad you brought that up again they're on the phone till three and three a.m in the morning after being together all night what happened between 3 a.m and 3 p.. the next day where he decides out of nowhere that he needs to kill her. What happened? What would have had to have taken place? Yeah. And like do it in this calculated manner. It's not like a crime of passion. It's like I'm going to kill her and I'm going to like make an alibi at work so that nobody suspects me and I'm going to like sneak in and sneak back out. And it's a lot. But I guess what you need to know, like, as far as the police were concerned, Don had an alibi that was supported and Adnan really didn't, at least, like I said, according to the police. Detective Joseph O'Shea interviewed Adnan over the phone

on January 25th. And Adnan told O'Shea that he and Hay had dated in 98, but their relationship had ended due to religious differences. He said that he was Muslim and his parents didn't allow him to date anyone, but he and Hay were still good friends and he had no idea where she was. Adnan claimed he'd gone to track practice after school and he had not seen Hay leave. So on February 1st, Detective O'Shea interviewed Gerald Russell, the track coach, and Russell was asked if the coaches kept attendance records for practices. Russell said that they kept mental notes, but no physical attendance records existed, and he couldn't remember whether Adnan had been at track practice on January 13th. However,

he knew that Adnan would probably be fasting because it was Ramadan, and athletes who participated in Ramadan were not required to practice. So we actually have more to cover for this episode, but we're going long here and we don't want to overwhelm you with too much information. So we're going to pick back up with everything else next time. We're going to talk about, you know, kind of the initial investigation when police started going to the school and talking to teachers and things like that, what they found out. And we're going to talk about Hay being found and the autopsy and the physical evidence and where this leads police and how it leads them to Adnan's front door. So we're going to pick up there next time.

Yeah, I think it's a lot to cover. I have to kind of get off now and digest it because my notebook looks terrible. I was trying to keep up with the writing as we were talking and um it's a lot and it's a lot to digest and i think it is a good spot to end because when we talk about alibis we talk about exculpatory evidence we saw two sides of that tonight now maybe we'll have that with adnan as we continue but this is a good example of that where it seems like you have have a business with multiple individuals confirming that this individual has a place where he was during the time when this incident occurred. On the other hand, you have another individual and it's a lot more gray where we don't know exactly. And we already know from past experience that these people are not very good at remembering what

happened on the day in question. Which is annoying because it should be so easy for the track coach to be like, yeah, he was definitely at track practice that day. Why is this so difficult? You're at school. Somebody should have seen it non-at school. I mean, if you go based on the timeline we should talk about, somebody allegedly did, although she would retract her statement and then bring it back and then retract it again. And once again, so like just not reliable, you know, like it just doesn't feel reliable when all of these things are happening in these ups and downs and you just don't know who to trust and who to believe. So it feels like somebody should have seen that kid at school at some point. And it just feels like, why is it so hard to place him at school? That's the whole reason why this case is so popular, right? It's because it's very

polarizing. There's a large group of people who believe this man now was unjustly arrested, charged and convicted of a crime he didn't commit. And then there are people who feel like now that he's out, he got away with murder. And we gotta just see how it goes. We gotta keep breaking it down. We're still very early in this. I know there's so much more to talk about.

Interviews that were done. Oh my God, so much more. If you don't know this case, and I was surprised by the way. I was surprised by how many people in the comments said, because I had made the comment, if you don't know this case, you're living under a way i was surprised by how many people in the comments said because i had made the comment if you don't know this case you're living under a rock many of you were quick to point out that you're living under a rock many of you were living because you had never heard of this case yeah yeah so uh we got to get you better living quarters first

and foremost but ultimately it seems like a lot of people are hearing this for the first time especially overseas. And we sometimes forget how many people we have specifically on YouTube that watch us from overseas. So I'm glad we're doing it from the beginning. It's enlightening. All of you guys are going to be able to hopefully leave this case with as much of the facts as we can provide and develop your own opinions. In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter what we think. We're just trying to make informed opinions. If you're going to be out there talking about it, you damn well should know the facts. And that's what this is. So we'll keep going.

I will say, speaking of comments, we appreciate all the love and support. If you're watching on YouTube, please like, comment, subscribe to the channel. We have analytics where we can see that almost 50% of the people that are watching this video aren't even subscribed yet. So if you want to be up to date on all the content, make sure you subscribe. So you're up to date on when stuff first drops. And if you're listening on audio, you can subscribe to the podcast, obviously, but take a second. We got over 6,000 reviews right now. Love to get to 10,000. So if you can leave us a five-star review, that would be greatly appreciated. Other than that, it was another

long night. Stephanie, great job breaking it down. That's a lot. And everyone stay safe out there and we will see you next week with part three. Bye.