Crime Weekly - S2 Ep97: Hae Min Lee & Adnan Syed: Leakin Park's Buried Secrets (Part 3)

Episode Date: October 28, 2022

It was an unseasonably warm January afternoon in Baltimore County, Maryland when 18-year-old Woodlawn High School senior Hae Min Lee left school in her gray 1998 Nissan Sentra and headed out to pick up her six-year-old cousin from kindergarten before going to her job at the local LensCrafters. But sometime after leaving Woodlawn High School and before picking up her little cousin, Hae Min Lee vanished into thin air. Less than a month later, maintenance worker Alonzo Sellers was driving back to his job at Coppin State College and drinking a beer when he realized he had to use the bathroom, and it couldn’t wait. Mr. Sellers pulled over on the side of the road and walked deep into the woods to relieve himself, at which point he made a gruesome discovery. According to his later testimony, Mr. Sellers said quote, “when I looked down I seen something that looked like hair, something that was covered by dirt. And I looked real good again, and that’s when I seen what looked like a foot” end quote. Alonzo Sellers had stumbled upon the body of Hae Min Lee, she had been strangled to death by the bare hands of her attacker, and within a few weeks, the police would make an arrest for her murder. But, the suspect was a person that no one would have suspected capable of such a horrific crime, the ex-boyfriend of Hae, a sweet and smart 17-year-old named Adnan Syed. But, stay with us, because, it’s complicated… Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod Ads: Right now, BÉIS (base) is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase by visiting BEISTRAVEL.com/CRIMEWEEKLY. That’s B-E-I-S-TRAVEL dot com slash CRIMEWEEKLY  Go to HelloFresh dot com slash crimeweekly65 and use code crimeweekly65 for 65% off plus free shipping!

Hello everybody, welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're heading into part three of the current series. I can say that I've been spending so much more time with this case than I usually do, going over timelines, going over cell phone records, going over like cell phone towers, you know, trying to learn about cell phone towers because it's a whole different language. And it's just been an incredibly frustrating journey so far because I'm used to kind of being able to organize things. And it's just so impossible to organize this case and the details of it in a way where it makes sense at all. And, you know, I think a lot of people feel that way. Hopefully now that, you know, we're together here and we can run things by each other, we can clear things up a

little bit. But it's just been a wild ride. How have you been doing with the case? Good. I'm definitely invested in it now. And this is one of those cases where I think it's good to sit here and listen to you kind of lay it all out. But I had to do my own research as well too, because there's just so much to it. And just to be completely transparent, there's so many people invested in this case. And frankly, there's people who feel like they know the case better than the people who worked it. So you really got to be as, as people in this field, we really have to dot our I's and cross our T's because we know, unfortunately, there are people who are watching and listening to this just to call us out on something and just waiting to pounce on something we say or do so that they can say, see, they're full of shit. They don't know what they're talking about. So

I'm not saying that's the majority and that's the profession we're in. So we sign up for it and it's something I'm very used to and accustomed to being in law enforcement. It was my job every week. We'd have cases, you put together this case that you think is pretty concrete. And then the defense attorney gets it and their job, and it's nothing personal, is to rip you to shreds. Not only break you down as the detective and show why you're not credible, but also show how your case is incredible. And honestly, I never took offense to it. There were times where I'd go out for drinks with the attorneys afterwards and, you know, that was the end of it. So I don't take offense to it, but I like to be prepared. So for this one, did a little bit of research on some of the things that I had questions about. And I don't want to say the phrase that I'm enjoying this case, but it's intriguing and keeps me interested. And it's one of those things where we're going into part three and I'm still kind of in the middle, which I guess this is why so many of you out there are fascinated by this case as well I mean to be honest that there's probably a ton of people who know this

case better than we do because people have spent years like this is a case for some people you know they've spent years and years and years in their free time looking up every single you know detail and I will say like there may be times where and once again there's so much different information out there so you could get one source and hear it this way and then you could get to another source later and it's like actually that source is incorrect because this this and this and you're like what but you know we'll get there because I'll tell you what I have found out so many little minute details that have completely changed the way I look at this case and have brought a whole new level of like suspects

and possibilities to my mind that I've never considered before, just from trying to find everything I can and reading everything possible. It's a lot. So yeah, there's definitely people who know this case better than we do. But we're going through it, right? So we're going to try to get to that. We're going to figure it out slowly but surely. And we still may not know as much as them at the end. Conversely, I will say there are people who definitely know this case better than us, many people. But there are also people who, and I respond to a lot of the comments on social media, I'm usually the one monitoring it.

And we had a couple people where they'll say, listen, you got this fact wrong. Or it's not even that you got this fact wrong, but they'll say, this particular example, I don't know why we're not saying that Adnan is completely ruled out. It's been confirmed on multiple podcasts that Coach C, the track coach, or Coach Sy, how do you say his name? I believe it's Sy. Yeah, I believe it's Sy. Sy. However you say it, Coach Sy has, it's been confirmed on multiple podcasts that Coach Sy said he saw Adnan at track practice. And then I responded with, because I went and looked it up, it's right in the court testimony. You can go look it up for yourself where he says,

I don't recall if Adnan was there or not. I will say it was during Ramadan and there is a chance that he was not there because he did sometimes miss for Ramadan or whatever. He wasn't able to eat. So I wouldn't be surprised if he missed. And that's basically what he said. He didn't confirm that he was there. He didn't confirm that he wasn't. He just, he truly does not remember. So it doesn't help or hurt Adnan. But the thing I want to caution everyone with is if you're going to base something on something you heard, make sure it's from a court document or something that you can go back and check because it's like the telephone game just in high school or wherever you are in business where you're listening to someone who you find credible and you trust and believe.

And it's hearsay. You're hearing it from them that they confirmed that Coach Sy said this, but you have to ultimately get to their source. And we have no skin in the game, but i haven't seen anything anywhere in this particular circumstance where coach sai has said no adnan was 100 at track practice and i can prove it because if he did say that we probably wouldn't be sitting here right now one of the big discrepancies is like where was adnan during that time period and nobody can really tell us for certain so that was one particular thing i saw

just make sure as you guys are going through this if you feel like you know the case by all means healthy debate great in the comments but if you're going to start citing other podcasts other documentaries it get it's a slippery slope because we don't know necessarily where they're getting their resources from and if you tell me oh oh, they got it from so-and-so, well, then go check that first. And if they did, you know, screenshot it, send it to us. We've been wrong before. We'll be wrong again. But I think with this particular case, people are so invested in like serial and undisclosed and other ones where they take everything that was said in that as 100% fact. And that may not be the case. Not saying it is, but it may not be. As Stephanie pointed out earlier, these people are human. They have

investments in these cases, just like anybody else would, who's that close to it. So you really want to try to refer to the court documents when you can, because that's going to be your best information as far as what was said under oath. And if someone's saying something inaccurate, it doesn't mean they're doing so maliciously. It could just be like, it's confirmation bias. Once again, we're all susceptible to that. We're all humans. And I have to fight it myself oftentimes. And I will tell you that I see a lot of confirmation bias in this case, not just with the people covering it now, but the police officers during the investigation. It's very clear. Oh, 100 percent.

Very clear to me at this point that that's what happened. And nobody's saying that Adnan wasn't at track practice. We're just saying that we don't know for sure if he was like nobody said absolutely 100 percent he was. Because if that was the case, then we wouldn't be here talking about this. I agree. Yeah. he was because if that was the case then we wouldn't be here talking about this i agree yeah that's why that's why i responded because i'm like that's a big point of contention because for the reasons you just mentioned if he's there and there's multiple people confirming that he's there students coaches then why are we here yeah how did he even go to trial at that point you know if if there's like a if he had a solid alibi, he wouldn't have even gone to trial.

That would be exculpatory. Or as you joked around last week, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. If you get seven people who go up there and they're his peers and his coaches and they're all like, listen, on that date, he was here with us running. End of story. So, I mean, that would be the end of it. So when people say that in the comments, it's like, well, you might want to double check that because that doesn't appear to be the case from from our research. And that is an important fact to note. weeks after 18 year old hey Min Lee was reported missing so the first people that law enforcement are going to want to talk to were obviously friends of Hayes and this led them to the two people that would become the focus of the investigation in the initial stages which were Hayes current boyfriend Don clindens and her ex-boyfriend Adnan Syed so when this didn't give

much indication about where hay could be the police went to Woodlawn High School and they began talking to some teachers and students. Although it's crazy because they didn't interview all of Hay's teachers or all of Adnan's teachers. They just interviewed like a handful of them, but not all of them, which I think is odd. Don't you think, especially after it went from being a missing persons investigation to like a murder investigation, that they would talk to all of their teachers? father's in California or something. I don't think they thought she had been murdered. And so it does seem like they didn't really exhaust every piece of information they could have and every resource they could have gone to. And they kind of were phoning it in a little bit. And I think sometimes that happens too, where you have multiple investigators working the case and they're assuming that Joe is doing it when John should be doing it or Jill should be doing it. And so things get overlooked and it's unacceptable, but it does happen and it can hurt

the case later on, which it did here. And it becomes a murder investigation. And now they're going back and looking at witness testimony interviews that were done and there's people missing. Yeah. Well, one of the people that they did interview, one of the teachers they interviewed was Hope Schaub. And if you remember, that's Hay's French teacher. And Hope's involvement becomes complicated, like so many other aspects of this case. So Miss Schaub had a self-admitted close relationship with Hay. She's always maintained that Hay was more friend than student. And then when she was interviewed for the HBO docuseries, Hope Schaub said that Hay was like a daughter to her. So she claimed that when detectives first questioned her on February 1st, they asked for her help. And she said, quote, I was asked by the detectives, being that I was younger in age and close to a lot

of the circle she ran in, if I would make a few questions to ask some of Hay's friends. And these questions all seem to focus on Adnan. Where did Hay and Adnan go to be alone? Where did they like to go to have sex and things like that? So at this time, when she's being interviewed on February 1st, Hay is still missing. She's a missing person. Nobody knows that she's dead yet. And everyone was trying to come up with possible locations, you know, that they could look for her that hadn't been checked yet. So Ms Miss Schaub gave this list of questions to one of Hay's friends, Debbie, and she asked Debbie to show it around to the

other girls and kind of like come back with the feedback and some answers. But Adnan happened to borrow that planner that Debbie had slid the list inside after she got it from the French teacher, and he was not happy when he saw it. It's alleged that he took the list out of the planner, and then he confronted Hope Schaub about the questions, you know, basically saying, like, why are you asking questions about me and, like, my relationship and our sex life, etc., etc. So during the trial, Hope Schaub testified and she said, quote, Mr. Syed came into my classroom and just asked if I was asking teachers about him, questions about him, which I stated, yes, that everyone was being questioned at this time, which we all were. And he just said to me

that he would appreciate it if I didn't do that because his parents didn't know everything that went on in his life, end quote. But I guess we keep going with the French teacher, but I do want to ask you a question. A lot of people who are, you know, pro-Adnan and who are on his side, they think that this was very unprofessional, that she kind of had like a preconceived notion about him, that she already didn't like him.

And so she was like focusing on him. And I think that they kind of made allegations that maybe the police didn't ask for Hope's help she just kind of like took it upon herself now as a police officer in an investigation would you ever do this if something was going on at a high school like ask a teacher you know like can you ask around and and see if something's going on? I don't think it's crazy. I don't think it's unprofessional or out of the ordinary for that for that to happen.

But a lot of people are like, oh, she was basically like deputized herself and took it upon herself and kind of got in the middle of things and was disruptive. So it's a it's a really fine line, because if you have someone asking questions on behalf of the police department, you could be considered an agent of the state. And therefore, the other laws apply, like mirandizing someone if they're under arrest, things like that. So you have to be really careful when you get the help of someone who's not an actual law enforcement member. But there's also a world here where, like you said, police officers know that the students probably won't want to talk to them.

They might feel more comfortable confiding in a teacher who's maybe a little younger, maybe someone they can relate to, someone they've established a relationship with in the past. And you would think that if something happened to Hay where she ran away or she was staying with someone or whatever the case may be, rumblings might have got around amongst the students. And who has a better chance of intercepting that information, the teachers or the police officers? Probably the teachers. So I feel like her heart was in the right place. If the questions that she was asking were only pertaining to Adnan, that's probably not the way to go. It should have been more open. Like, hey, do you know what happened? Hey, have you heard anything? Was she seeing anyone? And just very more vague instead of pointing at someone. Because to be

fair to Adnan here, it's really difficult, I would think, to be in a school and you find out that one of your teachers is asking questions about you to your peers and also other teachers. Not asking questions about him, asking like, where would he and Hay go? Did they have a secret place they liked to go to be alone together? Because they were trying to, you know, they'd exhausted all possibilities. they searched everywhere for her at this point so now it's like well was there a place they like to go together maybe a specific town or a specific restaurant or a specific like location in a park maybe she went there and something happened to her and she got like you know fell on a rock or something like we need to look there i don't think it she posed it as like oh is it non-suspicious i'm not saying she didn't

feel that way but i don't think she posed it in that way the questions were just i think he was like oh why is a teacher asking questions about like my sex life which i agree that's what i'm that's what i'm saying that's the questions are geared towards him and and ultimately the answer she's receiving is about his personal life so So now fellow teachers and students, if they didn't already know, now they know if he's sexually active, what he was doing in his personal time. So I do think that there is some type of trust you want to have there between teacher and student. And I could see how Adnan would be offended by that because she's not law enforcement. So I do see it. But I also think that maybe her heart

was in the right place. She just wanted to try to help find Hay. And unfortunately for her, Adnan got a hold of it. And at least she had enough courage to say, yeah, I did. She didn't hide it. So I don't hate this, but I wish it would have played out better. Yeah, I don't think she was malicious. She was young, I think 24, 25. So a very young teacher, not, you know, probably not, you know, seasoned in the student teacher relationship. The lines can become blurred when you are close in age to your students. And I understand why he was upset. And I don't think that him being upset about that makes him look suspicious, although other people do that. It's like yeah They're like he's he wants her to stop asking questions No, he just was like oh no like my my sexual activity is getting out there

And what if somebody hears about it and it gets back to my parents and that's always his concern When he wants to talk to the police things like that. He doesn't want information getting back to his parents No, and I think that's definitely part of it and i don't think it's unrealistic for us to say that if he had nothing to do with this asking questions about hey and that non instead of just hey some people may interpret that as whether he deliberately did something or he was with her when an accident occurred adnan knows more than he's saying so far. So where did they hang out? Where did they go? Where is a place that maybe only those two would be? And if something happened, only Adnan would know about it. So I think some couldn't, I think it could be inferred that although it was about, Hey, he might've interpreted as you're kind of like

implicating me in a passive way here where it's like, I might know more than I'm already saying, which isn't true. So I'd appreciate it if you don't do that, because obviously already people are kind of looking around at each other like what happened to Hay and who knows about it, who knows what happened. Yeah. And, you know, the thing is, Hope Schaub, the French teacher, she seems to have had some involvement in the relationship between Hay and Adnan for some time. This wasn't the first time that she had kind of involved herself or not even involved herself, but became involved because I definitely don't think she involved herself. So she testified that during the fall of 1998, after the homecoming dance, she and Hay had discussed the relationship between Hay and Adnan. And Hay had told her that there had been an incident at the dance between herself and Eun-nyeon's parents that had really upset her. Hye claimed that there were problems between herself and Eun-nyeon simply because they were

of different religions. Hope Schaub said, quote, Miss Lee was wondering and asked me for counsel and my opinion as to what one should do if he or she were in an interfaith relationship, According to Hope Schaub, Adnan also asked her for advice on this same issue. She claimed that sometime during the first week of November 1998, Adnan came to her classroom in the morning looking for Hay. Because remember, Hay would go to the classroom before her second period every day. But Hay wasn't there yet, so he sat down to wait for her. Hope Schaub said, quote, he was in the far corner of the classroom looking out the window, and he was also asking questions along the line of what should one do if they are in love with someone who is not of their religion, end quote. Ms. Schaub claims that she and adnan have

been speaking for about 20 minutes when the phone in her classroom rang it was hey asking if adnan was there and essentially telling hope shop to not let on that she was on the phone she didn't wanted non to know so a lot of people say like this is proof that she was scared of him that she didn't want to see him, things like that. I don't think so. Once again, this was in November. So it was kind of in that place where they had just broken up after the homecoming dance. And she was kind of like, you know, talking about Don. And it was like the on again, off again. They were off at this point. He probably wanted to talk to her. She probably didn't want to have that conversation at that point. Because remember, she wrote him a letter

around that time, like, why won't you leave me alone? And why are you not getting over this? We're both going to be fine. We'll both move on. So she probably just didn't want to deal with him at this moment. But we do know that they got back together for a short time before breaking up again in December. And then they were still friends and they were talking to each other. So I don't look at it as more than it is. Maybe I feel a little different. I feel like there's been a few different things that you've said now over these last three episodes where we talked about Hay referring to Adnan as possessive. And then we have the phone calls where he was calling her multiple times

the night that she was out with Don to allegedly give her his new phone number, even though they were broken up. We have the incident involving the car where we really don't know to this day whether he showed up unprovoked, unsolicited, and he just showed up to show up or he was asked to be there. That's still a big question mark. And then you have an instance like this, which in a vacuum is not that big of a deal. They might, they just, they just had this incident occur. Hayes trying to avoid them. But when you consider other things that we've talked about, um, there could be something to it. I, I, you know, some people may not like that, but I'm not going to sit here and say that this is all, all these things that we've talked about are all just innocent things.

There may be something here that we weren't privy to where Adnan was not this monster, but may have been a little possessive, may have been a little jealous, may have been someone who, as Hay had said, and we, we kind of, we speculated on it, so to speak, but you know, he was moving fast. And I had thought maybe that was meant in a physical nature, but maybe it was more emotional and wanting to be present. And I had talked about the rose too, at school where I said, oh, I'm going to get killed for this. But surprisingly, a lot of you agreed with me in the comments. I'm not saying everyone did. Really? The comments I saw were making fun of us for thinking it was weird. Like the few,

I mean, I saw like 10 or 15 and it was like one right after the other, like you guys are hilarious for thinking that's weird. And I'm like, I don't know. I think it's weird. Yeah. No, a lot of people. And I read a lot of the comments. I know you try to stay out of the comment section. I was reading it and I expected to get some pushback obviously. And I definitely saw some pushback, but it was more, I would honestly say it was more towards the side of the Rose thing was a little much in the middle of school. But that all together, then you have this. I think we have to acknowledge the fact that there could be a pattern of behavior here where Adnan was pushing situations where Hay was like, hey, just leave me alone for a little bit. And did Adnan know that Hope and Hay were close? And that's why he's going to her specifically, again, trying to get into her personal business because she knows, because he knows that she has a close relationship with Hope. Yeah. And maybe that's why Hay called her and said like i'm pretty sure adnan's there right now

you know i'm don't tell him i'm i'm calling you please i mean that seems like that could also be a scenario here and so some of you may not like that i'm not saying that that suggests that adnan's involved with anything to do with hey but just this particular pattern of behavior we're starting to see a few different things here that may suggest Adnan was a little aggressive, a little pushy when it came to wanting to know Hay's whereabouts and wanting to know who she was interacting with. Yeah. I mean, it could go either way. If this was like a full grown man, I'd agree with you 100% without, you know, even a second thought. But I just remember high school boys and like how, you know, they just had a hard time letting go and, you know, didn't always take no for an answer. They're like

very impulsive. They haven't really gotten their like man brains yet where they have a little bit more impulse control. And it's kind of just like all feelings and emotions and passion and that drives them. So and for high school girls, too. I don't know. If this was an adult male, I would say like, yeah, this is okay. Kind of stalkerish. Can we really make that huge distinguishing difference between adult males and high school males? I think so because their brains haven't developed yet. They don't really know any better. They're not out in the real world yet. And they're not in a place where women are like all right creepy like stop stalking me i don't know it just feels completely like he's just trying to get back in good with hay and you know whether or not

that's what he should be doing and i do think that he was having a hard time letting go especially after the homecoming dance and around that november time but i don't know i think it's pretty typical and i'm not even saying it's this this typical this type of behavior is isolated to add non I do think there's a factor of add non's age and what's what's normal for teenage boys young adolescent boys but I think that coupled with what we've heard to say that add non's on the adverse end of that where he wouldn't be like every other teenage boy pushing a little bit, wanting to know who she's talking to, wanting to know where she is. I think that would be a stretch too, right? So to say this is not

saying he's a monster, not saying he's a stalker, but I just don't think it's a far reach to say that he may have been overextending himself a little bit to kind of integrate himself into Hay's daily activities, like the fact that he knew she would go see her teacher. So ironically, he's going to go see her too at the same time. Seems a little convenient to me. That's all I'm saying. And I completely agree with you there. And we did touch on it in one of the previous episodes where it was like everybody who was fighting for Adnan kind of made this big show of saying like he was completely over hey like he wasn't jealous he wasn't still hung up on her he had moved on he was dating other girls etc etc and I said you know

I have a hard time believing that because this is January it's only been a couple of weeks since they've legitimately broken up and they were so like their whole relationship breaking up getting back together is it crazy to think that he expected they would get back together again is it crazy to think that he would still want that is it crazy to think that he was just acting like he didn't want it because that's why high school kids do they play hard to get and they act like they're okay but really they want that I don't think in any way that he was as over her as many people make it out to seem but But once again, that

doesn't mean he killed her. It's just, you know, teenage kids, they don't get over stuff that easily. They hang on to it and then they listen to sad music in their rooms and then they like drag it out until they realize it's over. So I think that you're right. It shows he's still into her and everybody will try to tell us that he wasn't, that he was completely over it. Yeah, no, I don't buy that. And I especially don't buy that after we know that the day before Hay went missing, he was calling her repeatedly, trying to get in touch with her again, according to him, to give her his phone number. I consider you a very close friend, but I can tell you, if I wanted to give you my new number and it's later in the evening, I'm going to call you

once. If you don't pick up, I'll probably talk to you the next day, but I'm not going to repeatedly call you until you finally pick up just to give you the number. And we're very close. I don't think you would be like super weirded out by that if I did. But to say on one hand, oh, he was over and he was out doing his own thing, but that we know that that interaction occurred. It's up for debate what was said when they finally spoke, but I'm pretty sure, and stop me if I'm wrong here, it's been confirmed that he was calling multiple times to the house. And was he paging her as well? I don't know because we only have his cell phone records, right? We don't have her pager. But we know he was calling her from that cell phone. Three times he called her

that night and he got a hold of her the third time he called and that was around what time didn't you say like 11 30 yeah late okay so that seems like someone who is really determined to speak with hay now again i'm not going to dispute what he said was said on the phone i've already said and you you said it as well doesn't really align with the behavior leading up to that phone call. But you know what? At this point, we got to call it what it is. He's the only game in town. He's the only one who knows what was said on that phone call.

Hayes not with us any longer. She can't dispute what he said. But I think just the pattern of phone calls contradicts the idea that he's over her and not trying to still be in her life. That's just my opinion. If it was just a friend's thing, he was going to see her in school the next day and give her your number then you know oh hey what's up hey by the way here's my number if you want it i got other girls i'm giving it to but you know let's just jot it down in your notebook yeah like if you want it great if you don't that's

great too but i would ask this question too he got the phone right he's dating other girls he's kind of over hey he's doing whatever how many other people did he call that day, that late at night to try to give them the number that night? So I could- And maybe you don't have that answer, but I would love to know. I do have that answer if you want to give me a second. Ooh, I love that. Love it.

So these are Adnan's cell phone calls on January 12th, 1999, which was the day he got the phone. His call history starts at 7.30 p.m. And he called his friend Nisha. And that was about a minute and a half. He called his friend Krista at 7.48 p.m. Only a three-second call, so I assume she was not there. He called his friend Stephanie at 7.48 p.m., spoke to her for about two minutes. There's another call at 7.57 p.m. that has question marks on it, so we don't know who that was.

He called Krista again at 9 p.m. She still didn't answer. Then he called Stephanie back at 9.01 p.m., and they stay on the phone for about two minutes. And then again at 9.07 p.m., we have another question mark call, about a three-minute call. 9.14 p.m., Krista, it looked like she didn't answer again. Nisha at 9.14 p.m., they were on the phone for about a minute. Jay, he calls at 9.18 p.m., they're on the phone for 18 seconds. He has an incoming call, two incoming calls, one at 9.21 and one at 9.24 p.m.

Those were nine seconds and 15 seconds. We don't know who those are from. He calls his friend Yasser at 9.26 p.m. on the phone about four minutes. There's another incoming call at 9.32. And then it looks like he calls himself because it says Adnan Sal. So it looks like maybe he's checking his voicemail. Then he calls Krista and then Nisha. So he finally gets Krista on the phone because they're on there for about three

minutes. And then he calls Nisha again. And then he calls Krista. And then we've got Hay, the calls to Hay. So. What time does that start at? 1127. So the first call he makes to her is at 1127. So it looks like, yeah, I mean, he did kind of call the same people over and over. Like Krista, for instance, he tried calling her at 748, didn't get her on the phone. He kept calling until he got her on the phone around like 11. So he, wait, so there's more calls. So I saw the calls at 932. Then there's a call at, what's the next one?

Nine. There's a bunch of calls till the 11 o'clock call. So the 1127 PM call to Hay is his first effort to call her. And then he doesn't call her again until 12.01 AM, which is just a two second call. Once again, she doesn't answer. And then he calls her again at 12.35 AM where they're on the phone for about a minute and 24 seconds. So that's the time he got ahold of her. So that makes the third call. Okay. So the call wasn't even three minutes.

It was a minute and 24 seconds. Let me ask you, were there any call? What was the last call before Hay at 11.27? Last call before Hay was Krista at 11.07 PM. And they were on the phone for almost 20 minutes, about 19 minutes. You said 11 what? 11.07 PM. And they were on the call for how long?

18 minutes and 46 seconds. So they were on the call almost until he, like when he got off the phone call with her, basically he hopped off there, maybe like a five minute window. And then he tried calling Hay for the first time. So this is something where if I got this call sheet, obviously I'm speaking to everyone,

but the call I really want to dive into is the call with Krista at nine at the, at the 11 o'clock. You said 11 o'clock, right? 1107. 1107. I really want to dive into that one with Krista because I want to know if there's any mention of Hay at that point, because I'm assuming he didn't call Hay that entire day. So he gets his phone at seven o'clock. He doesn't call her at all to say hey I got a new phone line. He calls all these other people calls Krista calls Stephanie calls Jay calls Yes, yes here. You mentioned a couple other people I think Nisha

so he's calling all these people and Never calls hey to say hey I got this new phone number and there would have been plenty of time to do so. So my question would be, why at 1130 did he decide to finally call her? And if it wasn't that big of a deal to give her the number throughout that day, you know, starting at 730 p.m., why did it become so important to get in contact with her that late at night? Like I said, just to repeat repeat it it doesn't appear just by the call records it was at the top of his priority to make sure Hay had his number because he could

have called her at a reasonable time when he was calling everyone else but for some reason around 11 to 3 11 30 11 27 to be exact that's when he tries to call her to give her his number according to him she doesn't pick up so you would think, he wasn't really that concerned to give it to her anyways. He'll give it to her the next time he sees her, but he waits about a half hour. She doesn't call him back. So he calls her again. She doesn't pick up. He waits another half hour. He calls her again and he speaks for about a minute and 24 seconds. So that would be my question. Was there anything on the phone call with Krista that may have indicated to her or she may have indicated to Adnan that Haye was out with Don or out on a date? What happened during that

phone call, if anything at all, that triggered Adnan to call Haye? Why did he decide to call? Maybe he was more innocent than that. And Krista might've said, did you call to call Haye? Why did he decide to call? Maybe he was more innocent than that. And Krista might've said, did you call and give Haye the number yet? And he might've said, oh shit, you know what? I didn't, let me call her real quick. It could be completely innocent. But those are the types of interview questions

that I would have for Krista because is there something during that 18 minute phone call that caused him to wanna call Haye immediately and then call her repeatedly until finally making contact with her that's a question i would love to have answered so i can answer that for you because krista was not right now but i can look into it um because krista was interviewed and she testified at the trial and um apparently when he's making these calls he's not necessarily home according to the cell data, because he's like kind of pinging off different towers.

But that could once again be a cell phone tower thing because it's far more complicated than it seems. Especially back then. Yeah. And there's some sort of like algorithm. Apparently, like if you're if your cell phone is near like four towers, there's going to be an algorithm that depending on like traffic and depending on like a whole bunch of other things, which one you ping off of. So you could be in the same position and make four calls and every one of those calls could look like it's coming from a different cell phone tower. So it's not super helpful, but I can find out because I'm sure she was asked, like, what did you talk to him about for almost 19 minutes that night? I can find out and I will mention it next episode at the top of the episode. And I made a note. So I will look into that. Right. So that, but thank you for that information.

Super helpful. I have it all written down here. So takeaway is he wasn't calling nobody at that time. He was on the phone throughout the night. So that's, that's, it looks like he was calling multiple people to give him, give them his number. So feather in the hat for adding on there but i said it before and i'll say it again if he's asked by police about it and there was an argument between them or anything that wasn't on the up and up something that was more argumentative than than cordial he's not going to tell the police that he's not even if he's innocent because he's a teenage boy he's scared he's not going to say yeah the the, he's a teenage boy. He's scared. He's not going to say, yeah, the girl who's currently missing, the last person she spoke to was me. And we fought over a guy.

She's not, he's not going to say that. And I, I can't really blame him, but I will say that again, four hours, he had the phone called multiple people definitely had some downtime between these calls, never called. Hey, but then all of a sudden at 1130, he starts blowing up her phone every half hour. So I could be a coincidence. Of course, it could be a coincidence that he decided at 1130, when he was done calling everybody else, he was finally going to call. Hey, but again, that goes back to the hole where if he's over her and he's not really concerned about whether she has his number or not, I see the one call, no problem there. But why is he calling back two more times until 1230 in the morning just to give her his new phone number? That seems, even for a teenage boy,

that seems like a little odd to me. You know, it's odd for a teenage boy who's completely over her. Yeah, I agree. I absolutely agree. That's a lot of food for thought. So I'm going to dive into that for next time, but let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right. So we're back from break and just to put a pin on what we just discussed, because that was not in the script. It was not planned, but it needed to be talked about. We're not putting all our eggs in this basket, but Stephanie said something that's important. When you're trying to figure out what happened between A and B, you have to look, and you said it, the devil's in the details, right? So with this conversation, there may be nothing there, but when we're trying to figure out what happened to Hay, there could be something within this that

is important. And so when we're talking about Adnan as a potential person of interest here, it's something to consider the fact that he told police he was just trying to give Hay his number. That's the only reason he was calling her. And what I was saying before break was that may be true. When he finally spoke to Hay, he might've said, listen, I don't really care what you're doing. I was just trying to get my number to you. But what Stephanie and I were saying during break is that's kind of passive in a ways, because if you're just trying to get her the number, then you probably wouldn't be calling her multiple times at midnight. The behavior doesn't support the intent. The intent's to give a number, but your behavior seems a lot more aggressive. It seems as if you're trying

to figure out where she is and what she's doing It doesn't align with hey, i'm just trying to give you a number even though I don't care if you have it or not So that's that's just something to look at It doesn't again. We always have to qualify it mean anything more than what we're saying, but it absolutely Doesn't make complete sense to me as to why he would call that many times that late at night Just to give her the number. That's just my own personal opinion, both professionally and from my own personal experiences. And we did chat about it a little bit when we went to break. And we both agreed like, yeah, Krista, Adnan, and Haye, they're all friends. They all go to school

together. They all know each other. And we did know that Haye had gotten in trouble for breaking curfew. and it looked like she fell asleep at don's house and i think spent the night and she got in big trouble for that so krista may have said to adnan during this 19-minute call like oh my god did you hear about hey like she got in so much trouble because she like fell asleep at don's and spent the night and it non's like she what like it took how long to get like a first kiss from her and she's spending the night at this dude's house and they've only been together for like a week or so. So he's got a call to like confirm his suspicion.

And once he confirms it, he's like, oh, OK, whatever. I don't care. Here's my number. That's the only reason I called. But in reality, the reason he called was to see if what Krista was saying was true. So we've got to get to the bottom of what Krista said. If she was even asked about that. I know she was interviewed about other things like when she last saw Hay and things like that. I don't know if the police asked her about this conversation. It would be stupid of them not

to. But with this police force in this case, that wouldn't be a huge surprise. But let's move on for now. Yeah, I agree. So Detective Joseph O'Shea would attempt to interview Adnan as well, face to face instead of over the phone, because at this point Adnan's only been spoken to over the phone. On February 1st, Detective O'Shea called Adnan to see if he and his parents could come in and talk, but Adnan asked if instead he could bring in his older brother because he didn't want to discuss his relationship with Hay in front of his parents due to their strict beliefs. Detective O'Shea asked Adnan about what he had told Officer Adcock when the police officer had called on January 13th looking for Hay. And this call was around 6.30. It's on Adnan's

cell phone records and it lasted for about four and a half minutes. So according to Officer Adcock's report, Adnan had said that Hay was supposed to give him a ride, but he'd been running late and he assumed she'd just gotten tired of waiting and left. This is something I always come back to because in Rabia's book and in all the early coverage of this case when it was like hitting onto the scene, everyone said like Adnan has no recollection of asking Hay for a ride that day. He doesn't believe he did and he had his car. So why would he do that? But we do have witnesses who heard Adnan and Hay talking about him getting a ride from her that day. They could be misremembering the day. Who knows? But, you know, it's a possibility. I still think it's important.

I agree. I mean, I agree. And to say you have no recollection of asking her or being like, no, it wasn't that day. It was the day before or it was, you know, it couldn't have been the day after because there was a huge snowstorm on January, on the night of January 13th when he went missing and went to the 14th and the 15th. It was like an ice storm. So school was closed for those next two days. So it couldn't have been the day after. So, I mean, did he ask her for a ride? People say that he did and people say it wasn't uncommon for him to do so. And I think it's also important to note that this happened on February 1st. You said, correct? He's talking to Adnan on February 1st. On February 1st. So this is about

17, my math's not perfect, like 17 days after the date in question. Correct? Yeah. So not that far out. And it would have been the last time that Adnan had spoken to Hay, right? So you would think he would probably recall that conversation, especially if he had any feelings for her whatsoever. whatsoever or did no this is detective o'shea asking at non like did you tell officer adcock this that you asked her for a ride and it said no why would i do that he told officer adcock that he had asked her for a ride on january 13th the day of so when he so he said i don't recall telling officer adcock that when detective o'shea followed up with it right okay i gotcha but on january 13th when they were looking for him you're saying that's when he told Adcock, yeah, she was supposed to give me a ride, but she got busy.

Or I got busy and she didn't wait around. He was running late. And then he figured she just got tired of waiting for him. That's what he told Officer Adcock. I mean, that makes it even a little bit more compelling, right? Because he was asked on the day in question. Yes. And then all O'Shea was doing was following up with it.

And now the story is different. I mean, unless Officer Adcock is just completely lying and made it all up. Or he could have screwed up too. He could have screwed up too, I guess. That's something where it doesn't have to be a lie. He might have misunderstood what he said. I don't know. I know that's what people will say, that Adcock's definitely heard it wrong. I mean, I've seen the report that he wrote and I don't think he did. It's pretty specific, but whatever. So Detective O'Shea did schedule a time to sit down in person with Adnan and his older brother the next day. But that meeting was postponed and rescheduled for February 10th. Sadly, it did not go ahead as scheduled because Hay's body was discovered on February 9th, and the missing person's investigation became a murder investigation. Baltimore's Leakin Park looks like a welcome expanse of green in an otherwise gray city, and it is, after all, one of the largest woodland parks in an East Coast city, but since the 1940s, this park has been used

as a dumping ground for dead bodies. This is most likely due to its huge size of 1,200 acres with plenty of isolated and wooded areas to hide out in. The park's dark reputation began when 13-year-old Robert Wayne Truman was found dead there in 1946. It turned out that he'd been accidentally shot to death by another teenage boy who had panicked and chosen Leakin Park to hide the body. And I guess that started a trend because people just started hiding bodies in there. In 1968, the bodies of four little boys all under the age of 11 were found in the park on April 19th. They'd been brutally murdered by Reginald Vernon Oates, an 18-year-old janitor, a serial murderer, and a child rapist who kept his victim's genitalia as trophies of his crimes. So since Hay Min Lee's body was found in

the park in 1999, 20 more have also been found, and a young girl's body was found in that park uh just a month before hay's body was found and they believe that that she was murdered by this other person we're going to talk about that in another episode when we talk about different theories and different possible persons of interest so in recent years efforts have been made to improve the reputation of the park but it is really difficult to look past the fact that bad people who have done bad things have used this park to hide their dirty deeds. Guy Hager, the senior director for the Parks and People Foundation, wants us to know that the murders were not committed in Leakin Park, saying, quote, It's factual that the bodies have been found, but those bodies have been brought in from another location. City parks are closed in the evening and there are major roads going through

this large park. People find it convenient, I guess, to hide things, end quote, which doesn't make me feel better, like just because the murders weren't committed there. It's still like, I think somebody, I think it was in the serial podcast when somebody was being interviewed and he was like, oh, if you go into Leakin Park looking for one body, you're probably going to find like a completely different one because it's just that common. Yeah, it's unsettling. I will say my takeaway from that section is that when we talk about other suspects, other people of interest, other scenarios that could have happened that day, this is one, right, where you have someone who is a serial killer. They're out there looking for someone who is a serial killer. They're out there looking for women that fit a certain description. We don't really know what happened

to Hay that day. Did she leave and see a hitchhiker or see something on the side of the road and pull over because this person was set up there to entice someone to pull over and check on them? Yeah, that's possible. Who am I to say it's's not and that she could have been a victim of a situation where the offender has killed multiple people and and and was known to dump the bodies at this leakin park so that is a scenario and it's a it's a realistic scenario like it absolutely if we found out you know six months from now with the the new uh findings in the Adnan Syed trial and his charges being vacated and all that stuff and them not pursuing charges, if we found out that there was DNA on her shoes and it came back to an offender, one of these names that has never had any known contact with Hay, but his DNA

is on her shoes, guess what? He now becomes your main suspect. So that's when I talk about finding DNA on these shoes that's linked to someone who had no interaction with Hay, but they do have a past criminal history connected to another case. And if one of those cases are connected to a body that was found at Ligon Park in the past, that'd be huge. That'd be huge for this case yeah i mean we'll definitely explore that theory i don't think it holds much water the person who was known to have like or suspected to have left another body of another young girl in the park i don't know how much water it holds but we're going to discuss it regardless yeah and to be fair it's not just

this particular person there could be an individual who has a series of crimes, you know, sexual assaults, robberies, whatever it might be, just violent crime. And their DNA is found on her shoe. And there's no known connection between the two of them. As I said last episode, they would go to that person and he or she would have some explaining to do as to how their DNA got on the shoes in her car. So that's what I say as far as there may be an unknown individual right now who has a criminal history and just

hadn't been caught for something like this yet, or this was the first time something like this happened where we're going to end up finding out that their DNA was on the shoes and their DNA is in a database because of previous crimes they committed. So I listen, nobody wants it to happen more than me. Obviously I want this case solved for, Hey, so if it leads to a completely different person, yeah, that's a win. And obviously that would be terrible for Adnan as well to know definitively he didn't do what he was accused of and convicted of. Um, but either way, I definitely want to find, we all do. We want to know what happened. Yeah, no matter where it leads. We definitely don't.

Yeah, we're not like weird people who are like going to be mad if the crime turns out to be solved in a way other than we suspected or thought or considered. That's ridiculous. Although I will say I do think there's people out there like that. We are not those people. So let's actually talk about the way that Hay's body was found. It was discovered by Alonzo Sellers, but a lot of people have questioned the way he found her. And, you know, they've kind of brought up the fact that they think he might be responsible for killing Hay. Now, personally, I'm just going to put my opinion out there after everything I've read and everything I've gone through.

I don't see why he would lead the police to her body if he'd been responsible for her murder. Why would you do that? But people have said like, oh, maybe somebody told him about it and he wanted to have her found because he felt bad. That's possible, I suppose, but you guys be the judge. So I'm going to go over the series of events that brought Mr. Sellers to the location of Hayes' body, and then I'm going to tell you what people find suspicious about that series of events. So Alonzo Sellers was 40 years old. He worked maintenance at Copen State College, and he claimed that he'd been given a work order that day to shave down a door, but he didn't have a work order that day to shave down a door,

but he didn't have the tool that he needed to shave down that door. He needed a planer, and he didn't have one at the college. However, he knew he had one at his house. So on his lunch break, Alonzo drove home. He went down in the basement. He got the tool, and then on the way back out, he grabbed a 22-ounce Budweiser beer from the refrigerator, which he proceeded to drink on his way back to work. So the way back to the college brought Alonzo to Franklin Town Road. And Franklin Town Road, it winds its way through Leakin Park. So as he was driving, Mr. Sellers claims that he realized he had to pee so he pulled over on the side of the road and he began making his way away from the road and into leakin park trying to find a place to relieve himself that was not visible

from the road so he was about 127 feet off the road when he walked up behind a 40-foot fallen tree and he claims he was planning on going even further to find a more private place, but he stopped when he spotted Hay's body and he called the police. And the police asked him, why were you looking so closely at the ground to be able to see her? Because apparently her body was pretty well hidden. Even people who went to the crime scene after

were not able to just see her as they walked up. In fact, one guy said when he got there, he saw a bunch of people standing around, you know, because her body had been discovered. And he came in and he's like, okay, where is the body? And they had to like point her out to him. I will say that that was later in the day. The sun was going down. It wasn't as light out. And Alonzo Sellers told the police he was looking at the ground so he wouldn't stumble, which makes sense if he'd been drinking and it is like uneven ground. You know, there's like rocks and sticks and stuff like that. So it makes sense why he would be looking at the ground while he's walking. Do we know if Alonzo has like an extensive criminal

history or anything like that? We're going to talk about that. Okay. So I guess the answer to that is yes. I wouldn't say yes, but he has a history. So that's important. And it's something to definitely dive into. But I will say this, and we had something like this happen with Kaylee Anthony. So I don't want to deter people from looking into the individuals who find these bodies because it would be, I guess, a smart move. I don't think it would be, by the way, but it could be like a creative way of, hey, I did this, but now I'm going to be the one to find the body. So why would I point out the body if I got away with it in the first place? It's like this reverse psychology bullshit. I think it's super risky. If I had committed a murder and a month had gone by and nobody had suspected me at all, the last thing I'm going to do is go show

you where the body is because that body, just to look at this from a really morbid place, I want to let that body decompose as much as possible. I want to let animals get to it. I want the elements to get to it. I'm going to wait years before ever going near that body again, because I don't know if I left some trace DNA on it or anything like that. So the last thing I want to do is less than a month after I did what I did is point out to police where the person is that I killed. You're definitely going to wait a lot longer than that, I would think. So I'm not ruling this guy out completely, but I also think it's a really, it's probably not likely that he's the guy. Although I'm sure you're going to tell me that there are people who are very suspicious of him probably come of his because of his past and i will

acknowledge that on on the surface 127 feet sounds like an awful long way to go to take to go pee but i will say it's not as far as you think if you actually step outside your health house and walk 127 paces it's a lot closer than it really and you know this from accident reconstruction 150 200 feet it's like oh my god it's the skid marks are so long they're really not they're really not it's not it's i'm not saying it's a short distance i'm not saying it's like you can reach out your your hand and touch it but it's not as far as you would think and maybe he wanted to get off the road but yeah we'll look into his criminal history as you break it down you know in february

there's not like leaves on the tree it's not like springtime everything's in bloom you know everything's pretty bare at that point but i will i will bring back to to kaylee anthony i remember that guy so well the meter reader roy cronk and nobody could decide everybody was suspicious of roy right but nobody could yeah nobody could decide what they were suspicious of him for. Wasn't he going to pee too? He was going to pee. He was. He saw a snake or something.

No, he was a utility worker and he was going to relieve himself, remember? Yeah. And he said, you know, Jose Baez was like, oh, he's the one that put her there. And that's how he knew that she was there. But then Jose Baez switched it up and he was like, oh, he wanted the reward. So he found her way earlier and he just waited until the reward went up. You know, like Jose Baez himself couldn't figure out what he was suspicious of Roy for. And it's because truly he wasn't. It was just like this alternate explanation that wasn't Casey Anthony because

Jose Baez had to protect his client at all costs. And when you look at who's suspicious of Alonzo Sellers, it's mainly the people who are very supportive of Adnan, you know, Rabia Chaudhry, for instance, and people like that who are like, oh, we need to seriously look into Alonzo Sellers as a possibility. And I just don't think it's as strong a possibility as they seem to believe it is. So I guess- You can definitely look into it, right? Of course. I agree with him there. Of course.

But people say like, okay, so they say, why did he even stop to pee when he had just left home and the college was only like three miles away? So some people say the college is three miles away. Some people say it's five miles. Either way, it's not that long. Couldn't he have just held it until he got back or have peed before he left? And,

you know, allegedly after finding Hay's body, he still didn't pee because he freaked out and he called the police. So I guess he was able to hold it longer. Additionally, people have wondered, like you said, why did he go so far off the road and how did he find this specific spot? Because apparently the path that he would take off the road would go down sort of like a beaten path where people would walk, but he kind of veered off of that. And the Undisclosed podcast also mentioned how Alonzo Sellers had parked on the opposite side of the road and then crossed the road to find a place to pee. So why wouldn't he have just gone off the road on the side that he parked on? And, you know, the police did ask him many of these questions during their interview with him. And I think that it's very clear that they're suspicious of him

during their interview with him. So a lot of Adnan supporters are like, oh, they didn't, you know, look into anybody else. They weren't suspicious of anybody else. As soon as they knew about Adnan, it was over. But that's not true. Like you can tell when they're talking to this dude, like they're definitely thinking he could have something to do with it. So they were definitely suspicious of his story. I will say that I believe it was Sarah Koenig with Serial Podcast. So she went out to that same spot in February to see like how far off the road did he really go. And she even said, she was like, you know, once I get 127 feet, it's really not that far. It's not as far as you think it is, like you said. And she said you could still see cars, you know, driving on the road.

Like if you wanted privacy, then you probably would want to keep going. And you probably would go off the beaten path to find a place maybe behind a log, which is where Hay's body was behind this big fallen tree, where you could kind of like hide out and, you know, relief yourself. Yeah, that's definitely the case. And I will say as far as what you said about them speculating as far as, well, he pulled over to one side of the road and he crossed the street. I think it's a valid question. I think it's speculative, right? Like who knows why someone does what they do. He might've saw more foliage on the other side of the road. There's a million ways to explain it away. But the reason I'm bringing that up is if we're going to speculate

about the decision-making process, as far as walking across the street as to decide what side of the road you're going to pee on, they have to be open to the idea that other people are going to speculate about the phone calls that took place the night before Hayes' disappearance. You follow what I'm saying? And that kind of goes along with trying to remain objective. Because if you're going to go out on a limb and speculate as to the behavior of a person who found her body and why he chose one side of the road or the other and how that's suspicious in nature that he chose to go to the other side of the road to pee. Well, then I think if you're being fair, you have to acknowledge the fact that it's also suspicious that Hayes ex-boyfriend the night before was blowing up her phone at 12 o'clock at night and they only talked for a minute. And it just so happens that

Hay was out with another man at that time. So like I said, what's good for one side has to be good for the other. So I will say this, I acknowledge that it is something I would question as far as why he went across the street and that absolutely could be suspicious, but I'm also going to acknowledge that what happened the night of Hayes or the night before Hayes' disappearance between her and Inan is also suspicious to me. And that's how you try to keep it as balanced as you can. You got to do both. If you're going to go that far with one guy, you got to go that far with the other. I completely agree. But as we were talking, it's confirmation bias. If you've already gone in and you have a personal connection or you've made your mind up, you're going to see what supports your theory and you're going to kind of like, you know, push to the side, minimize or ignore what doesn't. And that's very

common and it's not malicious and it doesn't make anybody a bad person. It's just human. So I would say right now where we stand, stop me if you disagree, persons of interest, we're calling them. We have Adnan, we have Don, and we have Alonzo so far, correct? Yeah, I would say so. And we always have the unknown person that, I might not mention that every time, but there's always the person that we're going to go through however many parts of this, and there's the unknown person out there who did it. It's completely cleared of everything right now, it's not connected at all. But as we're in part three now, we have three people so far, we still have a lot more to go on this episode. but that's where we're at. And we're not leaning

any way as some other people might. We're saying, hey, listen, there are things about all three of these individuals at this point that would absolutely make them a person of interest. So I will say that as I've been going deeper and spending a lot of time with this case, I found myself a new suspect that we haven't listed yet because we haven't introduced him yet that I find to be extremely good for this. And I don't want to talk about it, but like not yet because it wouldn't make sense yet. Well, thanks, Stephanie. Now everyone's going to hate us. I know, but I'm saying like, I was not aware of this person before. And as soon as I became aware of him and I started looking into it and his connections and like who he was, I was like, oh my God, this is

not good. And I know the police are aware of him at this point. So the list is going to expand. If you're watching on YouTube, I'm pointing, showing you the notebook. The list is going to expand for sure. But that's what we're trying to do. We're not leaning any way. We're not trying to find things that just support Adnan being the person or Alonzo. There are things so far that could implicate any one of these individuals, or at least be a possible connection to how they were involved with this. And so far for all three, there hasn't been something completely exculpatory that says, Hey, there was some shady stuff going on there, but for this reason, there hasn't been something completely exculpatory that says, hey, there was some shady stuff going on there, but for this reason, they couldn't have done it.

So that's where we're at as of right now. Okay, we are going to talk about how Hay's body was found. But before we do, we're going to go to a quick break. It's our last break of the episode. So we'll be right back. So Hay was found in the woods, buried in a shallow grave with portions of her hair, right foot, left knee, and left hip partially exposed. She was fully dressed in a white jacket, black skirt, gray shirt, white bra, and pantyhose, the same outfit that she was wearing when she'd left home that morning. However, she was not wearing shoes, and the white jacket that she had been wearing,

it was unbuttoned. Her shirt and her bra were pulled up all the way, exposing both of her breasts, and her skirt had also been pulled up all the way, with her pantyhose showing prominent defects on the knee areas she had died from strangulation and blunt force injuries were also present to the right back and right side of her head but swabs from her body were all negative for sperm so it was decided that she had not been sexually assaulted her body was cold and mold growth was seen on her torso and extremities, so it was concluded that she'd been dead for weeks. Most likely, she had died the same day that she went missing. Large rocks had been piled on top of her, and dirt had been sprinkled on top of her. She was found behind that fallen tree, and near her body, they found an empty Coronet VSQ 200

milliliter bottle of brandy as well as a rope so in some sources it says it's a rope in some sources it says it's a length of clothesline but reportedly cellular material was retrieved from these two objects but they didn't test it i mean it says it was never tested and i'm wondering if now when they're going through this new DNA evidence, they are now testing those things. I just don't understand why they weren't tested at that point. One of the first cases we did, they used rocks. If you remember Crystal Beslanowich, we did that one and she had, there was DNA in the crevices of the rock. So yeah, you make a valid point there. Yeah. Why are they? And I'm sure that they did not go to those lengths to test the rocks that were found on Hay. And one was specifically, they said it was on her hand. So it seemed like somebody had placed those rocks there specifically to hide her.

But they didn't test the DNA that was found on the liquor bottle or the rope or the clothesline. Why? Why would they even take the swab if they weren't intending to test it? But there were also several fibers found on and under Hay's body, which were taken into evidence. Now on the road, which was like 130 feet away, there were a few more items recovered, including a rolled condom and a condom wrapper. So it's never explicitly said, but I assume when they say rolled condom, they mean it's still rolled up, which means it has not been used. Or I guess it could have been.

I don't think if you unroll it that it stays rolled up. So I'll tell you what, that'd be a hard thing to you could do it, but that would take some time. Right. And why would you do that? I don't know. Why would you be playing with it afterwards? No reason. I don't know. Yeah.

So I assume it's not used. They also found two blockbuster video cases and shell casings from two different weapons. Now, these things that were found on the road, not sure if it's connected to what happened to her, like, do you often drink when you're like driving through Leakin Park? And, you know, what do you drink? Is it only beer? And he was like, no, I drink some other things sometimes. And they were like, OK, well, do you drink this? Do you drink this? And he's like, yeah, sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. But then they said, do you drink brandy? And he's like, no, I don't. They also said, like, listen, we recovered DNA from the scene and we're going to test it. So if you know something or if your DNA is going to be found on that liquor bottle or on this girl or in her vehicle when we recover it, like, tell us now. And he said, no, I don't I don't think you'll find my

DNA on anything. He's like, I do sometimes throw bottles out the window when I'm driving through the park. So there's probably some bottles out there with my DNA on them. But no, I didn't do anything to her and you shouldn't find my DNA on her. So before you get too deep into this, just to go back a little bit, because it's important what you're talking about right now, as far as the condition of her body when she was found, the skirt being unbuttoned, I think could be something. No, so her shirt. The way her shirt was pulled. Yeah, her shirt was pulled up and the skirt was also pulled up her jacket was unbuttoned

Yeah, so I mean those that that being the case. Oh, so her skirt was not unbuttoned. Her jacket was unbuttoned Yeah Her white jacket was unbuttoned her shirt and her bra underneath the white jacket were pulled up so that her bare chest was exposed and Her skirt was pulled up like past her butt. So I guess she wasn't sexually assaulted, but there's some sexual motive there, right? Yeah. It could be an indication that there was a struggle there because the person was attempting to have sex with her. Just because they didn't find any semen doesn't mean that she wasn't sexually assaulted. As you just said, the person could

have used a condom. The other explanation would be that she was dragged. And I hate to say that, but that she was dragged and she was dragged by her feet. And just naturally, if you're dragged by your feet, your clothes would, they'll rise up. So that could also be an explanation. I'm not saying that's what it is. I would, I'd really want to see the photos, but I think at this point, that's where they're kind of, they're at with it, where they don't know whether or not the positioning of her clothes was from being dragged or from an attempted sexual assault or a completed sexual assault. So worth pointing out could be very significant, especially considering the fact that I don't know if if that would have been a motive for Adnan. Honestly, I really don't. I mean, maybe, but I just don't know if that would have been a motive for Adnan, honestly. I really don't.

I mean, maybe, but I just don't see it. I don't see him getting to a point where he wants to have sex with her and that's why he kills her because she refuses to do so. I just don't see it. I feel like he was a young, popular kid and he could have went somewhere else. I think if we're to believe that Hay was sexually assaulted or at least someone attempted to sexually assault her, we're probably talking about a different individual. That would also, in my opinion, probably rule out Don too, because again, I don't know if they were sexually active with each other, but I feel like he was probably going that direction if he hadn't been already because of their relationship and how it was evolving.

So it would rule out people like that to me. So here's my question for you, though, because you've seen crimes like this. And, you know, could the motive be sexual but not be sexual assault? Because I have a hard time believing that her bra would come up from being dragged like maybe her clothing but a bra usually has like underwire of some sort like you know it would have to be a lot of pressure to have that like pulled up so let's say does this indicate maybe like a teenage boy or a young boy who's like well let me just get a peek before I leave you know this like unknown this illicit thing that's like oh it was forbidden when she's alive but now that she's dead i can do whatever i want

i can look at her but i don't want to leave dna so i don't want to sexually assault her but i do want to get my peek in like does that suggest that to you have you seen things like that in the past so after the after the act is carried out yeah looking one last time post death to yeah yeah i've never seen it i'm sure there's a lot of people out there investigators out there who maybe have that the person has this fetish where they like to look at the body after killing someone in a sexual way there might be some form of sexual gratification there i think you're more looking at one of two scenarios. The position that she was found in, she was brought out there probably against her will and the person tried to

or did sexually assault Hay Min Lee before beating her and strangling her. Or whatever happened to Hay happened in her vehicle and then she was dragged 127 feet through the woods out to that final location and i do agree with what you say about the wired bra that would absolutely make it difficult however if it gets caught on a branch or a rock or something i guess i could see it pulling up you would know better than me honestly i've i've never tried that but 127 feet isn't that far but it would definitely be far enough where if it's a human body and only one person is dragging it it would get caught on a lot of things i would assume but without me seeing the actual layout of the of the trail that they

would take it's all speculation at this point i don't know how much would have been out there that she could have been caught on it's's just like the whole, yeah, I just feel like she was undressed purposely. I don't feel like it was just something that happened. Like the way that her clothes were, the clothes that were specifically pulled up to expose certain things, it just feels purposeful. And maybe it was meant almost to shame her, you know?

Like maybe somebody was mad that she was out there and I'm not saying this is Adnan, right, but like, if we're looking at it, could be possibly Adnan, that could be a motive for undressing her. Like, well, if you're just gonna go out there and give it away to whoever, like now you can sit here like the slut you are, you know,

and now everybody can see you like this. It's almost like a way you see sometimes like after- Yeah, but then why hide her body like that? Because they knew that it would probably be found. I mean, it wasn't hidden that well. Shallow grave. She just had like, you know, stuff sprinkled on her, like some dirt sprinkled on her and some rocks on top of her. But you would have to assume that she'd be found sooner or later. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out why somebody would undress a murder victim like that. And it does seem to have happened,

you know, at some point while she's either being murdered or after. And what's the motive for doing that? Yeah, I agree. Yeah, no, it's too bad. Not saying it's too bad. Let me rephrase that. But in some cases that I've worked, you'll have an obvious sign of a struggle where the shirt will be pulled up in one direction but the pants are pulled down at the ankle so it's like okay well if she was dragged they're not going opposite ways you follow what i'm saying but in this particular case you have everything going in one direction and the argument could be easily made well she had a skirt on derek so it's easier just to pull it up and i I actually agree with you. So that's what makes this a little bit complicated because it could be explained by some type of struggle of dragging her. But just as easily, it could be explained that the perpetrator was over the top of her, pulled her bra up, pulled her jacket open and pulled her skirt up.

Simple. Right to the point. Here's another thing. She's got stockings on which have defects only on the knees. If she's dragged, those stockings are running, getting holes, catching on things.

They're going to have defects a lot more places than on the knees. Why only on the knees? Did someone force her to kneel somewhere? What's going on here? You know,

like there's a lot of questions. Yeah, she didn't have scratches on her back either, right? She didn't have what? Scratches on her back? No. Scratches like you would expect from like rocks and branches and stuff. So that's not in the favor of her being dragged.

Interesting. Yeah, that's a difficult one. Would be a lot easier. And even so, even if we did, it would be easier if we had the photos, which we don't need, but if we had the photos of not only the crime scene, but also the walk out from the road to where she was found, because you could kind of develop your own opinion. But there are CSI people out there that would be way more qualified to do this than us. What's the general consensus from people who are in the Adnan are they what is their take on how her body was found they don't talk a lot about that part they just they just say like how she was found and and that's it you know they don't talk about like what it means or what it means towards motive or what it means towards who did it and i think it's important you know i guess that it's kudos to them on that because i do think it's very speculative for any of us to just kind of read what it was and be like oh it means this or this means that like we should we do it that's very speculative for any of us to just kind of read what it was and be like, oh,

it means this, or this means that like we should, we do it. That's what our, that's what we do here. But it could be a five different things that caused that to happen the way it did. Did, did the assault occur in the car or did it occur somewhere else? And then she was dragged out there, carried out there. Did she walk out there voluntarily, involuntarily, you know, like there's so many scenarios. And then was there another assault while she was out there, carried out there. Did she walk out there involuntarily? You know, like there's so many scenarios. And then was there another assault while she was out there? Is there a secondary crime scene that we're unaware of to this day? Yeah.

Is the secondary crime scene her car? You know, there's so many questions, but it is still good to know those things because even if her skirt had been found in the right position and her bra hadn't been pulled over her chest, it still could mean she was sexually assaulted or an attempt was made. Absolutely. Yeah. Or they just put her clothes right before they left her. And we've seen that happen a lot too, you know? That's right.

So it still doesn't rule it out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think we're weighing out the different options based on what we're learning, but all are still in play. And I don't think you can take anything from this that implicates one person over another. I absolutely agree. Because like you said at the beginning, like, oh, because of the fact that she, you know, if somebody was trying to undress her, I don't see a non doing that. And I agree, but I do see maybe like a teenage boy doing that just out of, you know, being a shithead like, like they are. So that

doesn't. You're leading me somewhere by the way, right now. No, I'm really not. It just can't, it can't. There's not a, there's not a future suspect you're going to talk about that happens to be a teenage boy. Well, I mean, Jay, besides Jay Wilds, you know, but he is, he's a young man. Like, is it out of the realm of possibility that Jay would do something like this? Allegedly. Don't come for me. No, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Jay would do something like this. Yeah, it's fair. No, that definitely opens up a wide gamut of people that any crazy criminal could do this this way. Yeah. And so let's go back to Alonzo Sellers, because when people were like, oh, you know, it makes sense that he would go out and go far off the road to pee because he wants his privacy. Well, Rabia Chaudhry brought up the fact she's

like, well, I don't think that he's the type of man who really cares about privacy because Alonzo Sellers had a record for exposing himself quite often. In May of 1994, he had been arrested when he was caught running naked in a residential neighborhood. And in March of 1996, Alonzo was arrested. He was wearing a hoodie, sunglasses, sneakers, and nothing else. And then again on December 7th, 1998, so just of, you know, like about a month, month and a half before Hegel's missing, Alonzo dashed out in front of the car of a woman. He exposed himself to her and then he began shaking it around. But unfortunately for him, this woman was a uniformed police officer. And so she chased him and she didn't actually end up finding him.

I think her name was Margaret, if I remember right. She didn't end up finding him, but she found like his car, I believe, or where he had stashed his clothes. And she stole his clothes and his wallet. And then Mr. Sellers went to the police station that same day reporting that somebody had stolen his clothes and wallet. And then obviously two and two were added up and he was taken into custody. So I guess it's safe to say that Alonzo had some, you know, strange proclivities. Like, I wouldn't do that. And he was still actively indulging in them in December of 1998, just the month before Hay went missing. But I do want to say in his defense, even though I'm not like a fan of streakers, because I think it's weird, but in his defense, you know, just because the guy liked to run around naked doesn't mean that he's a violent criminal.

And, you know, streaking does happen when a person is naked, but it's not something that is just automatically or intrinsically linked to sexual behavior, even though we think it is. You know, we often think streakers mean like sexual predators. It's not it's not true. Actually, mental health professionals believe that people who streak are just struggling with inhibition and decision making. Like their brain chemistry may be driving them to seek intense excitement. Some may be under the influence of drugs or alcohol, which reduces inhibitions. We know Alonzo incidences of streaking have also gone down. So it could just be that people are feeling repressed and they just want to let it out. No pun intended. It doesn't mean that just because he's a streaker, he likes to, you know, assault women or kidnap girls.

No, but let me throw this at you because I wasn't even like the streaking element was, it's whatever for me. But what I did find fascinating about what you said was that he jumped out in front of a car with a woman driving him. I'll tell you why that's interesting because when we think about what happened to Hay, I think most people, regardless of what side you're on, think that it happened pretty quickly after she left from school that day. It wasn't something where she was in good spirits and fine for hours because she didn't pick up her cousin within a couple hours of when she was supposed to. So whatever happened, happened fast. And I think to myself, well, if she had stopped at a gas station or she'd stopped at a restaurant or someone would remember seeing her, there'd be camera footage, something. Unless something happened while she was driving. And I think I said earlier when I mentioned the potential persons of interest, this unknown person who may have intercepted her on her

drive. Well, maybe it's not an unknown person. Maybe it's someone like Alonzo where she's driving, he sees her and he jumps in front of her car and he's able to get her to stop long enough for him to get in the vehicle. Again, I know we're going on a stretch here, but I think that's something that when we have behavior like that displayed in the past, fortunately it was with an undercover or an off-duty female police officer. No, man, she was on duty in her uniform and I think she was in her police car. It's like he knew she was a cop. In a patrol cruiser. Yeah. Yeah. So he's

an idiot. So he's definitely an idiot. And so would he do this to a young girl driving by herself? I think it's fair to say if he's capable of doing that, he's capable of doing the same thing to Hay as well. So to think that he could have impeded her path when she was driving with his own vehicle or maybe just jumping in front of of her making it seem like he needed help you know what's chris mohandi always say best predictor of future behavior is past behavior he's done something similar in the past where he's stopped a moving vehicle no he's just put in front of a moving vehicle and waved his dick around he didn't try to get into this woman's car he waved his dick around and then ran away and she pursued him. So his past behavior would show that he's not gonna climb into Hayes' car, he's gonna run away after he shows her what he's got. So I don't know. Maybe. I still think, I mean,

it doesn't mean he's gonna repeat his performance the same way every time. It clearly shows that his decision-making ability is all screwed up. And a guy who's willing to jump in front of a patrol cruiser with his dick out, as you said, to me, there's not much he wouldn't do. I'm not saying he's a murderer, but I'm just saying he clearly is not thinking like you and I think. And so when I think about Alonzo and I

think, okay, how could he somehow be involved with this? Well, if he was out in that area when Hay was driving by, this is a, this is a possible scenario, not saying whether it's likely or not, but if you, if we learned down the road that it was Alonzo Sellers and that what he, and he admitted that he walked out in front of her vehicle, kind of stopped her and whatever, would we be like shocked? Would you be like, oh my God, this came out of nowhere. You've never done anything even remotely like this before. No, he's has. He's done some stupid shit. So I wouldn't fall off my chair is what I'm saying. I would be shocked if it came out and they were like, yeah, it's Alonzo Sellers. I would be shocked. I don't think it was him at all. To be honest, I would as well.

But kind of what I was calling other people out for earlier, when there's behavior like this, it's impossible for me to say, yeah, with behavior like that, he's definitely not capable of hurting a young woman and burying her in a spot where he eventually is going to find her. No, I would lose all credibility, especially when I'm saying things like Don and Adnan and all these other people who really don't have past like this are also capable of doing something like this to Hay. So, I mean, a lot bigger leap for Adnan and Don to go to this, to go to murder, as opposed to this guy who's already showing not like you said, not violent, but already showing

some level of criminal activity. Yeah, I suppose if you think that streaking is criminal activity. Oh, my God. Stop defending Alonzo. Listen, he could have been streaking in the woods. And that's why he found her body. And he didn't have to pee after all. But he was he didn't want to tell the police like I was running naked in the woods when I found this girl like that's going to look even worse. So it could be that all the other stuff that made him suspicious just means he likes to run around naked. And, you know, he didn't want to say that.

Which is against the law. Should it be against the law? I'm just fucking kidding. Yes. I know. Like I said, I'm not like pro streaker, but. It sure sounds it. No, I'm just saying.

Is there something you need to tell us, Stephanie? Is there something you need to tell the channel? If I run around naked outside, I am not doing it in front of anybody. I'm making sure I'm in the woods or out of sight. All right. By the light of the moon. But what I mean is like, I guess my thing is I've never heard of any murderer being a fan of like streaking. You know, they're just not they're not like connected for any reason. So it doesn't mean he's not a murderer.

Could he be a murderer that just happens to like to streak? Yeah, but they're not. It's not like one thing doesn't necessarily mean the other. I'm with you. We spend too much time on streak. I think you're judging him. And I don't think you're judging him. I think you and Alonzo should hang out.

All right. Listen, so like you, the police were suspicious of Alonzo Sellers. So they gave him a polygraph on February 18th, which he failed. I don't believe in polygraphs. We know this. We've been through it. But let's go down this path anyways, because Adnan's camp has made a big deal out of these polygraphs. So the report from that first polygraph said that before and during the polygraph, Alonzo Sellers seemed preoccupied with outside issues. He was very nervous and conscious of the time. He kept checking his watch.

And then finally, somebody was like, are you OK? Like, do you have someplace to be? And Mr. Sellers claimed he was just anxious because he had an important meeting with a real estate agent and he was supposed to pick up his wife from work. So Detective John Brown, who administered the polygraph, claimed that he could not rule out situational stress and suggested that Mr. Sellers be given another test. This one was administered on February 24th, 1999, so just about like a week later, and this one he passed. But here's the thing. Between polygraph one and polygraph two, the questions that Alonzo Sellers was asked were very different. So like in the first test, he was asked, did you know Hayman Lee? Have you ever been in her car? Did you kill Hayman Lee? You know, like important questions. But in the second test, he was asked questions like, do you know if Hay

died because she was stabbed? Do you know if she died because she was poisoned? Do you know if she died because she was strangled? So the Undisclosed podcast talked about this, and it was Rabia's theory that the police just wanted to give Alonzo Sellers a test that he could pass. So they gave him like this random weird question test the second time because he wouldn't know that stuff. But I guess, you know, if he was the killer, he would know that stuff. So they actually talked to a polygraph expert named Brian Morris for the podcast, and they asked him why the police had asked such drastically different questions. And he said, quote, what they did is focus on a specific physical act that the person who perpetrated this crime would have intimate knowledge about that the general public would not. And so by the police focusing in on simply the method that this person was killed and the person who perpetrated the act would know that information, this would allow them to determine whether Mr. Sellers had actually perpetrated this crime or not, end quote. Yeah, that's right. Guilt knowledge. We talk about it a lot on this channel.

They ask them specific questions that would elicit a response about the murder that only the killer would know. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Yeah. And so after that, they pretty much excluded him as a suspect. They didn't look at him again. Yes. Yeah. That's where I think they went where you don't want to do it. There's two things there. One, you had talked about it earlier that there's this theory that all they did was focus on non. We're seeing in February that they're quizzing this guy. They're grilling him as if he's the murderer. So that's clearly not the case.

They're going after multiple people. Would I have excluded him completely just from a past polygraph test, especially after he had a failed polygraph test on the first one? Absolutely not. So if they excluded him after this, I would hope there was more to it than that. But just a past polygraph test, you can't clear the guy just for that. So I feel like they probably would have definitely gotten his alibi too, like made sure he was working that day or something like that. 100%. Yeah, I have a note down here to double check on that and see if it's said anywhere.

And I'll update you at the top of next episode. But I feel like if they're going to exclude him, definitely would have to like confirm an alibi of some kind 100 yeah, they would have to I mean if you're doing it with everybody else You got to do it with him and that may you may get your answer where? Part of the reason they would have been able to find out an alibi. Hopefully pretty quickly February 9th this polygraph was February 24th So you have a little over a week there where you had time, 10 days, where you could have gone and followed up on what he told you initially as far as where he was on the day in question.

So did they not like the alibi? And that's why they decided to hit him with the polygraph test because the alibi wasn't lining up? I don't know. That's definitely something we have to find out. Yeah, I'm definitely going to look into that. There's not a lot out there about Mr. S is what they call him online, Alonzo Sellers, but I will do my best to figure that out and I'll find an answer if it's there. So let's talk about how Adnan was behaving between the time that Hay's body was discovered and when he was arrested for her murder a month later. People who are against Adnan bring this up constantly and they have a problem with it. They say he was like cold and he didn't seem upset and things like that. I disagree, but, you know, because some people said he was sad,

but he, you know, he seemed okay. He was just like sad. He wasn't like crushed and devastated. Some people said he was very depressed and withdrawn. A few friends claimed that, you know, for a while he was in disbelief, like he couldn't accept it. When he heard that the body had been found and they thought it was hay, he said, oh, it's not her. All Asians look alike. So I didn't say that, by the way, guys, OK? Like, don't come for me. That's what Adnan said. He said all Asians look alike. It was probably a defense mechanism for him to be like, no, maybe it's not her. Like, it's still possible that it's not her. And people take that as like a bad thing, but I don't think it's a bad thing.

I think if he's saying, no, it couldn't be her, it's probably not her, then that just means it's a normal reaction when you hear something you're not ready to accept. Yeah, I'm with you there. I don't find that too offensive, especially the tone of his voice when he said it. It was more might have been denial than than anything else, not making fun or light of the situation. So no, absolutely. Denial. Yeah. And even I guess he went to see the school nurse and she even said like, you know, she was trying to like get him to accept it and understand. And he was in denial about it for a minute. So it doesn't sound suspicious to me.

And on the night of February 10th, so they found Hayes' body on the 9th. They kind of announced it on the 10th. They hadn't confirmed it was her yet. But, you know, there's a young girl. She's Asian. She's found in this area. She's wearing the same clothes, things like that. You kind of just put two and two together. So Adnan, Krista, and Stephanie all gathered at

Aisha's house. Remember Aisha, she's Hay's best friend. And they said that Adnan sat at the kitchen table and cried. And Krista remembered that Adnan had used his cell phone to call Detective O'Shea and ask him what's going on because he'd already talked to Detective O'Shea. O'Shea was trying to get an interview with him, but Detective O'Shea wasn't in. So they spoke to another police officer who told them to call back the next day. Once again, this doesn't sound suspicious to me. Now, the next day at school, several teachers, including Hope Schaub, approached Adnan and tried to comfort him, but he seemed like he didn't want to be hugged or touched and he seemed like out of it. And, you know, some of these teachers mentioned this in a

way where it's like, oh, he was really standoffish, like he didn't want to be comforted. And it's like, and, you know, like, I don't want to be touched or hugged when I'm upset sometimes. Like, sometimes I just need to be by myself. And this is a very traumatic thing. Like, he don't know you. You're just a teacher. Why are you trying to hug him? You shouldn't be like just going and hugging him. So once again, this is like a situ on what camp you're in, because we're talking about different people, but there's team Adnan and there's team anti-Adnan where they believe he's definitely the guy. However you, whatever you think about him is how you're going to take this situation, right? If you believe that he's innocent, you're going to say this, although they weren't together, he loved Hay and he couldn't believe that she was gone and he just

wanted to be left alone. He was grieving in his own way. And this just shows how innocent he really was. And then the people who think he's guilty are saying, this is all an act. The crying in front of friends so that they could bow for him and say he was so upset. Him calling and seemingly feeling like he's concerned, acting despondent and kind of staying away from everyone the next day because he's really upset about the whole thing. It's all for show. What do you expect him to do if he just killed the girl? Be happy that they found the body that he was hoping they would never find? Of course not. So that's the two schools of thought. And there's nothing you or I are going to say tonight that's going to change people from

that because it's so subjective how you want to interpret that behavior. It's all personal perspective. And so I don't think there's a lot we can take from it other than just noting what people said they saw and moving on from it. Yeah. I don't think you can sob like that on demand. You'd have to be a very good... Some people can, I suppose, but you'd have to be like, I could cry if I felt like I was going to go to prison. Do you get what I'm saying? You can cry pretty on this.

If you didn't think, if you did something and you feel like your life's coming to an end, people might've saw you crying. Doesn't mean that you were crying for the things they thought you were crying for. You follow what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. Yeah. So, and I'm not, I'm not leading you down that way. I'm just saying the fact that he was crying in front of them, that doesn't, that doesn't mean anything to me

as far as, oh my God, he, he definitely was just absolutely broken down about the fact that it was hay or he was crying because he realized that his plans were unraveling. That's it's, it's whoever you want to believe, right? Like it's? It's something that's not going to be, oh, the way he was crying and the manner in which he was doing it, that's more grief than it is being upset over the fact that you're going to get caught. There's no expert in crying, I don't think, right? We don't have one of those yet. I'm sure we do, actually. I'm sure there's plenty of them on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's why I'm saying it doesn't.

I don't take it either way. The fact that he was crying, I'm sure he was feeling a lot of emotions. If he's involved, he's feeling a lot of emotions because he's realizing that now with her body being found, it could implicate him in some way. He's, you know, he doesn't know what they're going to find up there. That could. Yeah. He's scared. He's scared and he could be crying because he's realizing oh my god they found her or it could be exactly what it

looks like he was in disbelief that it was her once it's confirmed that it is he's thinking about his friend and he and he's upset over it which is completely understandable so anybody who's going to take this and use it as to kind of justify their opinion on adnan i wouldn't i wouldn't go down that path if i were you i don't think it's just gonna i'm gonna speed through the next couple of sentences then because clearly it doesn't matter he's upset all right they go to a friend's he leaves school early all right um he's upset he goes to a friend's house with a bunch of other friends. He's in the basement crying. And then he's at like Asha's house later. And the five o'clock news comes on and they talk about Hayes body being found and he starts crying and he's

sobbing in Asha's arms again. So that's basically, you know, the long and short of that. So basically he's crying a lot. He's very upset. And I want I want the commenter's opinion on that one, though, because I feel like I have a like not a hot take, but I feel like people who have been following this case may have a different opinion on that. So if you're listening or watching on YouTube, weigh down in the comments on any of these things that we're covering tonight. We do read them. So let us know what you think. Maybe you're going to open our eyes to something that I'm missing and I might feel differently in that next episode. And if I do, I'll definitely

own it. So I actually kind of agree with you on this point. Like if this was an adult man or like a hardened killer, you know, like a Scott Peterson or a Chris Watts or something, I would say like, yeah, he probably wouldn't cry if he thought he was going to get caught. He wouldn't be that scared. He'd be able to hold it together and be in control of his emotions and try to act the way he expected people. You know, he thought people expected him to act. But with Adnan, if he was responsible for this, he's young. He's got a lot to lose. He's terrified. He's out of his element. He's realizing the gravity of the situation. Yes, he might cry because of that. So, yeah, I'm on the same page as you. I feel like I understand. I'm picking up what you're putting down. Okay. But by no means am I saying that's where I'm going. I'm just weighing both options here.

I know some people are gonna be like, Derek, he's manipulating you, Stephanie, don't go there. But I'm just giving you both sides. You don't manipulate me. Never. Never. I'm too much on my game. So we know that Adnan was actually late and absent for school a lot in those days. But I will say that this seems to have been an issue with him even before Hay's disappearance.

There was a lot of attendance records and he's just like some days he just wouldn't show up. And a lot of the records and he's just like some days he just wouldn't show up and a lot of the days he was late and he did stop going to track practice with his last attended practice happening on february 12 1999. so on that same day at around 3 19 p.m detective daryl massey of the homicide unit received a call from a person who asked to remain anonymous but who massey described as an asian male between the ages of 18 and 21. So I guess we can only deduce that, you know, Detective Massey heard an accent in the caller, and that's why he said it's an Asian male who sounded young and had an accent. The caller actually told Massey to concentrate on Hay's boyfriend, and he said Hay's boyfriend, Adnan.

And Massey actually misspells Adnan's name in the police report, but we obviously know who he's talking about at this point. Now, according to this caller, Adnan had taken Hay to Leakin Park many times for sex, and the caller made sure to mention that Hay had broken up with Adnan recently before her disappearance. So the caller hung up and Daryl Massey pressed star 57, but he was informed that the service was unavailable because the caller had not been in the service area. So star 57 is actually known as malicious caller identification. It was introduced in 1992. And basically, if a person dials star 57 directly after receiving a malicious or concerning phone

call, the metadata of that call would be recorded and immediately sent to the police for them to follow up on. And the fact that Massey was unable to get that information was explained better during the trial. And basically they said if someone's calling from a cell phone or a public telephone, like a pay phone, the call would not be able to be traced, only if the call was coming from like a home phone or a business phone. But just a few minutes later, at 3.35 p.m., the same person called back with more information for Detective Massey. The caller said that he had just remembered, about a year prior, Adnan had told one of his friends that if he were ever to kill his girlfriend, he would drive her car into a lake, and the name of this friend was Yasser Ali. Now, for the record, Rabia claims that Adnan and Hay had never been to Leakin Park.

And in fact, Adnan didn't even know that Leakin Park existed, which, I mean, we've talked about this outside of the podcast, but I personally find it difficult to believe because Woodlawn High School is pretty close to the park. He lived there, you know, for like he lived in this area for a while. I don't know. And there's 20 to 30 bodies that have been found yeah isn't it like famous over the years all the high school kids would know about that spot i feel like yeah they would right yeah if there was a if there was a park 15 minutes from where we all grew up and there's been 10 20 30 bodies found it would be like notorious it would be something where we'd probably go there and mess around a little bit too, you know, because it's scary and all these things. So you would definitely be familiar with it and know it exists. That's for sure.

And remember that girl, another girl had her body was found in that park a month before or a year before. I can't remember now. I'm so sorry. I'll double check. But, you know, before, hey, not too long before. So that would have been on the news. It would have been like widely publicized, like a murdered girl is found dead in this park. So I do feel like these kids at high school would have known about this park. And this happens a lot with Rabia. Like I said, no disrespect intended. I love her. She's great.

Whatever. But she does this thing a lot where she makes these like grand claims like Adnan is such a good kid. He would never do this. He would never do that. He didn't even know this park existed. And she makes these claims sometimes that are just so difficult to believe instead of just saying like, yeah, you know, he knew about it, but he'd never been there or he'd

driven past it before, but it wasn't someplace he frequented. She's just going to go out and be like, he had no clue that place even existed. It's like a huge park in the middle of the city. Well, let me ask you this. Okay. How would she know that Adnan wasn't aware of Lincoln Park? Well, she claims that Adnan told her and then her brother, who's Adnan's best friend, also told her like, yeah, we have no idea. We wouldn't go to that park. You know, we don't hang out in places like like that things like that. Yeah, so you you definitely want to take her opinion into consideration But you have to acknowledge the fact that Adnan would have a reason to say he's never been to Leakin Park And I'm not saying he's never been there. We didn't know it existed

You know it existed, you know that we don't have to go too far down this path But it does pose another question as well. Because if we're to believe that Adnan and Hay were sexually active, which we do, I think we do, right? Where were they having sex? It wasn't at Hay's house. It wasn't at Adnan's. So I'm assuming it was in vehicles. Vehicles, parking lots, things like that it sounded like.

Yeah. Where were they parking lots, things like that it sounded like. Yeah. Where were they parking? Where were they parking? So I would, you know, this park would be a potential spot, but I'll also say I'm sure there were a lot of other spots they could go to and hide for, you know, however long they were there. But this park would be a potential spot because it's very isolated and it's big. So even if people are in that park, it's very likely you can find a spot where nobody's going to walk past you for an hour. That's right. Yeah.

The detectives went to speak to Yasser Ali. This is the person that the anonymous caller had mentioned being Adnan's friend. And Yasser was Adnan's friend. He knew him for a while and he attended the same mosque as Adnan and his family. And apparently, according to Rabia, Yasser considered himself to be Adnan's best friend until her little brother Saad showed up and took over that spot. However, when Yasser talked to the police, he made it sound like it was someone else who had come between himself and Adnan. He said that when Adnan had started dating Hay, they stopped talking as much, but he didn't think Adnan would hurt Hay or anyone else. Now, when asked where Adnan would hide a car if he'd been

involved in Hay's murder, Yasser responded, in the woods or possibly Centennial Lake or the harbor, which kind of did match what the anonymous caller said that Yasser would say. But we do have to mention, even though we haven't gotten that far, Hayes' vehicle was not found in a lake or a harbor or anything like that. On February 18, 1999, the Baltimore police filed an application to subpoena AT&T Wireless for call records and 13 cell site locations for Adnan's phone on January 13, 1999. 34 calls had been made that day, but one person had been called six times, and that was a young woman named Jen Pusateri. Now, Jen knew Adnan, you know, vaguely, but she was very close friends with another person named Jay Wilds, who turned out

to be Stephanie McPherson's boyfriend. Jen and Jay had known each other since they were kids. They'd been in the same class at Woodlawn High School Jen and Jay had known each other since they were kids. They'd been in the same class at Woodlawn High School, and they had both graduated the previous year in 1999. Jen was a freshman at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, and she was studying biochemistry and she'd also pledged a sorority. Jay wasn't doing as well since graduation. He was working, I believe, at like an adult video store and he was selling drugs. But he and Jen still talked or hung out every single day. According to Adnan, he and Jay were not friends.

They knew each other through Stephanie and all they ever did together was meet up and smoke weed that usually Jay wouldn't even charge Adnan for. Now, Jen Pusateri was the witness who would initially lead police to Jay Wilds, claiming he had told her that Adnan had killed Heyman Lee. Yeah, now we're getting into the good stuff. Jay, he's a huge part of this case. As you guys will find out, a lot of you don't know this case. Apparently, you guys keep telling me in the comments, you're not going to let it go. Jay is a huge part of this investigation. And I would say without giving you the details, a big reason why Adnan was convicted of murder. So this is going to be something we really have to dive into. And when, from just the research I've done, when you look at it, two different sides have two

different opinions on Jay and they're vastly different. So you're going to have to make your own conclusion and decide what you think about Jay and what he has to say. But I'm assuming just looking at the script you have here, we have a lot to talk about when it comes to Jay Wilds. So listen, next week's gonna be a long, like detail packed episode, because we're gonna take Jen's statement of what happened that night,

and then we're gonna take Jay's statements of what happened that night, because he had three gonna take Jay's statements of what happened that night, cause he had three police interviews and then he testified at two trials and not once did he tell the same story. Yeah, big problem. It's ridiculous. And it makes me wanna pull my hair out.

And then we're gonna have Adnan's version of events. And he kind of has the opposite problem from Jay because Jay gives so many details and they're constantly changing. And all kind of has the opposite problem from Jay, because Jay gives so many details and they're constantly changing. And all of these little details to the point where you're like, none of this can possibly be true because none of these details are matching up. Where Adnan, he doesn't give enough details. He doesn't remember certain events from that night. For instance, his father claimed that Adnan was with him at the mosque that night from 7 to 1030. And that doesn't make sense because there's phone calls being made from Adnan's phone around nine o'clock to his

friends that Jay didn't know. So we know that Adnan had his cell phone at this time, but he wouldn't have been at mosque because he wouldn't be able to have his cell phone on and making phone calls. So that's not true. Why did his father say that? Well, I think we can put two and two together. Reasonable deduce why he was giving them an out there. Yeah. But we don't know, was he ever there?

We're not sure, but he says he doesn't remember. You know, they were like, well, what time did you get to the mosque? And if that's what happened, like you're claiming Jay still had your phone when you were at mosque, but how did you get your phone back? And he's like, you know, I really, I can't remember. And that's the big thing with Adnan where it's not enough details. So you can't pin him down.

And with Jay, it's like too many details. So you're overwhelmed. And then Jen comes in with her crazy stories that don't match anything. And then the cell phone data comes in with with matching nothing no one's story. And it's just so much so next episode next week, bring your notebooks get ready because we are going to go very in depth into this timeline. And we're going to go over all the possibilities of what could have happened and where they actually were and what time these things happened

I'm excited for it because it's been driving me crazy for a week I've been looking at this timeline and like making notes and outlines for a week and I still can't pin it down So I'm really excited to to kind of bounce it off Derek and then to get get your guys's opinions in the comments Yeah, I love that stuff. I love it question and you may not even know if you're gonna go there yet Do we have more to cover on Don as we go forward or is that basically what's out there for him? There's basically nothing more to cover about Don he kind of faded off and then Recently when the HBO miniseries came out, you know, he was like listen I've been in bad health like basically since a year after this happened. I married I have kids I've been in bad health, like basically since a year after this happened.

I'm married. I have kids. I've been on disability. I had nothing to do with what happened to Hay. And like, if no one believes me or if there's people out there that don't believe me, I can't do anything about it at this point. Like I've been cleared my L by checked out. I know you have conspiracy theories about my mom, like changing the time records and stuff that didn't happen. And that's all I can say. I know the episode's running long and so we're not going to get back around to this. So I want to hit it quick because I, it would not be doing what we do if I didn't, but I actually went and looked at the time cards, the three time cards and I'll, I'll throw them up here. We'll have Shannon throw them up, but there's just something that an observation I wanted to make it. I, again,

I looked at it pretty quickly, maybe about an hour, but there's basically three time cards that they have out there. And the ones that I wrote down, they have the Owings mills time card from the week of January 9th. They have the Owings mills time card from the week of the 16th. And then they have this other time card from, from hunt Valley for the week of the 16th. Cause he did the different place. I want you guys to go research it the time cards are widely available on there i had a time card when i used to work at this place and hope you know in cumberland where where uh was one of my first jobs but something that was similar to lens crafters was you have this adjusted time and you have the actual time and and from my understanding of time cards, the actual time is the time that you physically punch in and out. That cannot be manipulated. But as we know,

there are many situations where you forget to punch it in the morning or you forget to punch in at lunchtime. So you have to have a manager go in and adjust those times so that you get paid the proper hours because you were there. You just forgot to punch in or punch out for your lunch. So I want you guys to go look at it. But what you'll find is that you'll see that Don worked at Hunt Valley on the 13th and the 16th as he normally would if you're going to go off the actual time, because there's three different time cards there. So this is the couple of things that I came out of. So if you look at the two other time cards there is adjusted times on both those cards but on the hunt valley time card there's no adjusted time so it's the same system so my

assumption from that is that whoever the the times that we're going off for for the date in question the 13th or somebody physically had to punch that card there was no time adjusted later by his mom or anyone else for that matter. And so what you get down to, you'll see, I think it's 9.02 AM the time he punched in in the morning and then he punched out. I have it right here. He punched out at like 1.10 PM and then punched back in from lunch at 1.42 PM. And then he punched out for the night at 6 p.m. So the reason I bring that up and this may not satisfy a lot of people for me, we're talking about another person who would have the physically had to punch him in and punch him out on that day in question to give him his alibi. It wasn't something who went and punched in these times later. So if we're going to operate under

that assumption, he was setting up an alibi before he ever even met up with Heyman Lee that day. Yeah. They're saying it was his mom who did it. They're saying it's his mom punched his time card for him. Right. So, and that was the two questions I would come up with where was she at that actual branch? Was she at the Hunt Valley branch? Do we know that for sure? I believe that she was, but so were several other people who saw him there. So that's my second thing. That's my second thing here. So if you want to believe that she was the one punching him in and out, right? This physical punching of the card, that means that law enforcement never asked another person at

LensCrafters that day, hey, we have a physical punch card here where somebody took this card, punched it in, punched it out, and it's supposed to be Don. Was he here that day? And if they say no, then we know the mom more than likely has got some problems. So the reason I wanted to bring this up, I don't want to go too deep into it. It may not satisfy everyone. For me, this piece of evidence with the time cards here knowing that this was in a public place that would not only be seen by customers but also other employees I would classify this as exculpatory evidence this is something to me that would rule Don out because he physically can't be in two places at once and the

time that he went on his lunch break I would want to know if he ever left the actual building or the surrounding area. And if he did, I don't know if 30 minutes would be enough time to meet up with, Hey, do what would have to be done and then get rid of her car and the body and get back to work by 1 42 PM. So I know some people might be in an uproar about that, but I didn't want to not cover it or make you guys think that I didn't look into Don a little bit more after last week's episode. I mean, he could have come back from lunch and then left the building again. We don't know because most likely the police never checked surveillance, things like that. We'll never know. But I feel like I'm going to need more than he may have left work on that day.

Yeah. You would need to have an orchestrated... I mean, I guess if there was nobody else working that day, there's so many variables that would have to go into play there where you'd have this collaborative effort amongst multiple people, not just his mom, that are willing to defend this guy. And what's the motive? What's the motive? Yeah. They would dime him out in a heartbeat yeah there's absolutely no motive he's known her a couple weeks it's not like they're married and you know he can't divorce her because there's he's gonna lose custody of kids or he's gonna you know lose money or something like they there's no ties binding them he could have just if he didn't want to have anything to do with her he could have just been like hey we're done you know that's it yeah there's no motive for her for him

to to kill her that i can think of they weren't even that you know close like she was obsessed with him yeah but i don't see what i mean that doesn't mean there wasn't one but i just don't that's the point right yeah we don't know what his mindset. That's why I'm really focusing on the time card. And I know we're doing this quickly. I'm not just trying to sneak it in there. I don't know who Don was. I don't know what his mentality was at that point. I don't know if something went awry the day

that they could have allegedly met up when she got out of work and that's why, a school, and that's why she couldn't give Adnan a ride home. My point is this, based on what I have, it looks like Don was at LensCrafters from multiple different angles, not just because of the punch card, but because other people would, unless this was the worst police investigation that's ever been done, law enforcement would take that punch card. They would go to LensCrafters

and they would find out who else worked that day and they would simply ask that person hey stephanie i see that you worked on the 13th with with don was he here uh yeah he was here the whole day okay thank you have a great day that's the end of it but i mean that's the end even going further just imagine how much publicity this case has gone and how how it's blown up any single person who worked with him that day would be like, oh, January 13th, man, I remember like he was supposed to work for somebody else in the lab, but he disappeared for like three hours. They'd be going to every tabloid, every newspaper and telling their story as they do. So, you know. It'd be all over the place. Yeah. And I'm not going to give credit to the police investigation because allegedly they never went to the hunt valley

lens crafters but they they they could have called people from there and yeah you know i'm sure they did that at least who knows i would hope so and you know the reason i say this is because i'm saying this about don and i just want to put it out there that just to change roles for a second, if Adnan's track coach and his teammates, or even just Adnan's track coach had a running record where he took attendance every day and he had noted on that day at 3.53 PM, Adnan checked in and started his run, whatever, just that handwritten note and maybe a student or two saying, yeah, he was here, then Adnan would be out of the equation as well. That'd be exculpatory in nature as well, in my opinion. So it's not like it's just Don. Isn't it weird that that hasn't happened though? But that's the problem here.

That's why I'm bringing it up to say, what's the difference? That none of his track teammates have come forward and been like, why are we even talking about this? Adnan was definitely there that day. He was here. I remember. We were running together. I remember. We had this conversation. I remember it was Ramadan, so he didn't practice. He sat on the sidelines because he was fasting, but he was still there. I remember.

Not one person has done that. That's odd to me. Yes. And that's why I just wanted to make that difference there for you guys, where it's not like I'm trying to give Don an alibi. I have three time cards that i went and looked up myself i read them with my own eyes i can see other time cards have uh the you know the adjusted time the actual time that card in question does not it so it appears that he punched in and punched out as he was supposed to and i do think a lot of people would make the argument oh

well his mom did it for him. She would have to do that in front of other people. And those people would just have to decide to remain quiet or also be involved in some way in the covering of this murder. And I just, I just don't see it. And that's why for me with Don as, as convincing as he could have been at first with some of the things that were going on, maybe he, he paged her and she decided to go meet up with him quick. All that could have been true. But either way, he was at LensCrafters that day. So I don't see him as a viable suspect. And I just didn't want to go too far down the road. And they did pull his phone records, right? And as far as I know, he did not page her that day. I'm sure if he had paged her that day, the police would have been like, hey, you paged her like

around two o'clock, right? When she said she couldn't give a non a ride home like what's going on. So they got his cell phone records. And another weird thing is, allegedly, Adnan never tried to reach hey, after he knew she was missing. So when the police called him that day, and they were like, Hey, you know, have you seen her? And he was like, No, she was supposed to give to give me a ride home but she didn't he did not attempt to call her and see where she was or to see if she was okay i do think that's interesting or try to page her nothing that's kind of interesting right that is very interesting one more thing i didn't know don had a phone if they were getting the gps coordinates for adnan and other people i'd be willing to bet for all their flaws they probably got the cell phone records for don as well and if i had to guess so i don't know if he had a cell phone but i know they checked the phone records for like his home i caught you there they checked the phone records for his home um because there's multiple people they get subpoenas for for their phone records. They track their phone records for his home and I believe the store he was working at that day.

So obviously to see is he paging her. There was one other thing. There was supposedly a different employee ID number on the Hunts Valley card. I was trying to look into that. I can't explain it. I don't know if it's just... I think it's because he was covering for someone. It might have been. I know there was some... i was seeing on some things that i was reading that they were trying to like game the system or something that this number was

generated for this reason and listen i guess i mean if that's what happened here in donja guy it was an elaborate plan that was premeditated and took took weeks of figuring out how they were going to do it so that this guy could get away with the perfect murder. And he told his mother that he was going to do that. And then she had to help him. So he either told her that he was going to kill Hay and he needed like an alibi or he killed Hay. And then he called her and he was like, oh, shit, I killed someone, mom.

Can you just punch in and out for me? So it looks like i was there like that's you're asking a lot of things to be happening that don't really um seem reliable i agree and and i would i'd be much more willing to believe it if i saw an adjusted time on there where all of a sudden during the time window where we believe hay might have been killed there's all there's the shenanigans going on where the time's been adjusted and now it looks like he was there but we know someone had to put that in after the fact that would be sketchy that'd be shady so i think the actual times to have that physical punching in of the card it would be a huge risk on don and his mother's part to to assume hey i'm just gonna punch you I'm going to punch you out and nobody's going

to notice. We'll be fine. I'm sure. That's a really shitty plan, if that's the plan. And I just wanted to point that out because I didn't know if we were going to go back to him, but I do think some people are still on the Don train. And this probably didn't sway you if you are, but I just wanted to know where I'm coming from and why I'm not sitting here hopping on Don going forward. Well, I mean, even Rabia and Susan from Undisclosed, they say like, no, we don't believe that Don was involved in Hayes murder. There was no evidence that he was. They talk about him to show like how bad the police investigation was that they didn't even bother going to that store to like verify the person, things like that. But they basically say like, no, you know, we don't we don't believe that he is and there's

nothing that says he is. And I think they literally say I'm looking at this blog right now. Don was not involved in his murder, although there was evidence that at the time of this original investigation should have caused the police to take a special interest in Don. So things like that, they're saying they should have looked at Don closer. Yeah, I agree with everything they're saying there. Yeah. Don't disagree. But I'm glad we got some common ground

because I don't know where we're gonna end up on this. We still got a lot more to go. But as you and I, I'm learning this firsthand. So I'm not being manipulated by previous episodes of podcasts that I watched or being influenced by them. So the fact that I'm listening to you and also doing my own research and coming to similar conclusions as Rabia and some others, that's a good sign. That's common ground. Those are things we can agree on. We might differ down

the road, but at least as a community, that is something where we can all kind of be. And I know she's a lawyer, correct? Rabia is a a lawyer. Robbie is a lawyer and so is Susan. So they're all lawyers. There's three people on the podcast. Yeah, they deal with this stuff and they're using their brains and they're using what their profession is. And they're saying, hey, listen, although we think it should have been looked into deeper, we also agree that this is the fact that they're willing to say that in a blog or on their show. They're looking at it as exculpatory evidence. So now you have lawyers

and a former detective. We're all saying the same thing. All different backgrounds. I've never spoken to them. So I think that's a good thing that we're here finishing up part three. And we all kind of agree that Don, although maybe should have been checked out a little bit deeper, he's not the guy. He's not the guy for this. I agree. Yeah, I agree. Any final words? I know I just totally did not tell you I was going to do that. Just added another 20 minutes to the episode. But I want to if you were going to talk about him again, I was going to save it. But now when we're getting so deep into Jay, I didn't want to cut in with Jay because I thought that would be super confusing. Yeah, because in my opinion, Jay's a much better suspect than Don all day.

I agree. Like a million percent. And you know, next week's episode is going to be just as long as this week's, if not longer. So y'all get prepared for that. Make sure you got a snack or like, you know, good coffee or something

when you listen or watch because it's going to be long and we're going to be talking about a lot of stuff and it's going to be good, I think. Way down below. We appreciate you guys sticking with us. If you made it through the whole episode, what could we have them do? I've done this before.

If they made it through this whole episode, what emoji, what can they put down in the comments so we know they made it to the end? Give me something. Yeah, but then people will just like put the emoji and then other people will figure it out. What about a banana for Alonzo Sellers? What is up with you and fruit? Pineapple, banana, you're going to get these people talking again, but banana it is. For Alonzo. All right, so banana it is. Ended on the banana note. Stephanie, continuing with the fruit theme here on Crime

Weekly. We appreciate you, Stephanie. Get your vitamins. What? Fruits have vitamins. Get your vitamins. You're so off tonight, you're so off your cake. We appreciate you guys sticking it out to the end. Make sure you weigh down in the comments below, make sure you're liking, subscribing, commenting, means a lot to the channel, helps us grow. We will see you guys next week. Stay safe out there.

Bye. you