Crime Weekly - S2 Ep98: Hae Min Lee & Adnan Syed: Timelines and Testimonies Collide (Part 4)

Episode Date: November 4, 2022

It was an unseasonably warm January afternoon in Baltimore County, Maryland when 18-year-old Woodlawn High School senior Hae Min Lee left school in her gray 1998 Nissan Sentra and headed out to pick up her six-year-old cousin from kindergarten before going to her job at the local LensCrafters. But sometime after leaving Woodlawn High School and before picking up her little cousin, Hae Min Lee vanished into thin air. Less than a month later, maintenance worker Alonzo Sellers was driving back to his job at Coppin State College and drinking a beer when he realized he had to use the bathroom, and it couldn’t wait. Mr. Sellers pulled over on the side of the road and walked deep into the woods to relieve himself, at which point he made a gruesome discovery. According to his later testimony, Mr. Sellers said quote, “when I looked down I seen something that looked like hair, something that was covered by dirt. And I looked real good again, and that’s when I seen what looked like a foot” end quote. Alonzo Sellers had stumbled upon the body of Hae Min Lee, she had been strangled to death by the bare hands of her attacker, and within a few weeks, the police would make an arrest for her murder. But, the suspect was a person that no one would have suspected capable of such a horrific crime, the ex-boyfriend of Hae, a sweet and smart 17-year-old named Adnan Syed. But, stay with us, because, it’s complicated… Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod Ads: When your day is feeling stale, just ask: what will today spin? If you’re 21 or older you can join millions of players around the world. Download Slotomania, the #1 FREE slots game, on the App Store or Google Play Store and get one million free coins. That’s Slotomania on the App Store or Google Play Store for one million free coins. This holiday season, trade late nights for silent nights and get started with Stamps dot com today. Sign up with promo code CRIMEWEEKLY for a special offer that includes a 4-week trial, plus free postage, and a free digital scale. No long-term commitments or contracts. Just go to Stamps dot com, click the microphone at the top of the page, and enter code CRIMEWEEKLY. You deserve one less thing to worry about. Let Daily Harvest take care of the fruits + veggies for you. ! Go to DAILY HARVEST dot com slash crimeweekly to get up to forty dollars off your first box! That’s DAILY HARVEST dot com slash crimeweekly for up to forty dollars off your first box! DAILY HARVEST dot com slash crimeweekly. PDS DEBT is offering free debt analysis to our listeners just for completing the quick and easy debt assessment at www.PDSDebt.com/crime. That’s P-D-S-D-E-B-T.com/crime. Take back your financial freedom today by visiting PDSDEBT.com/crime.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are jumping into part four of the Heyman Lee case. And like I said at the bottom of last week's episode, this one's going to be very detailed. So take notes. I know Derek's going to be, but do you want to say something before we jump in? Yeah, I just want to say this is coming out on a Friday. So the press conference happened on Monday. We're happy to hear that there's been an arrest and Adelphi murders. If you don't remember, we covered the Adelphi murders extensively on here. We even had Kelsey on to talk about it.

And this has been a long time coming. The true crime community has really been behind this one. Nobody really understood how this person was able to get away with it for so long. And we don't always get this type of result where you end up having some type of movement in the case. But we're glad to see that we're having that here. And we'll be watching along with you guys to see what ultimately happens as this continues forward in the court process. Yes, absolutely.

We are, like Derek said, we're recording this the day before the press conference. So we haven't heard anything yet, but we're looking forward to seeing what new details are coming out and hopefully seeing this case finally come to a resolution for everybody involved. But before we dive in, I wanted to quickly address a couple of the questions we had last episode that I didn't know the answer to at that time. So we had some questions about Adnan talking on the phone the night before January 13th, so the evening of January 12th. And he had talked to a bunch of people that night, but he had talked to one of his friends, Krista. And he talked to Krista for almost 19 minutes and he got off the phone with her right before he called Hay. And so Derek had said, you know, what did he talk about with Krista?

Did Krista remember Adnan talking to her? Were they talking about Hay? Did Adnan find out through Krista that Hay was, you know, on a date or something like that? And actually, a lot of other people had that same question a couple years back. And reportedly, Krista was asked this, and she said she would not have discussed Hay's dates or romantic life with Adnan because she wouldn't break trust about things like that. But there also were some comments on Reddit, because I went deep with this because I was trying to find something. There was comments on Reddit claiming that Krista had mentioned that maybe Adnan had called Hay that night, January 12th, to ask for a ride the next day. So people on Reddit were saying like, oh yeah, Krista's confirmed that Adnan asked Hay for a ride, but I couldn't find where she actually did confirm. So it's just supposed as of now however she did say during the

trial and several other times outside of the trial that she talked to Adnan the morning of January 13th she had first period with Adnan and during that first period he told her he was going to ask Hay for a ride that day because he didn't have his car she couldn't remember why he didn't have his car she said maybe it was in the shop or maybe his brother had it. But she's definitely sure that this conversation happened the morning of the day that Hay went missing. So January 13th. That's really interesting.

And, you know, just like we do with everything else, just like some of the comments I responded to last week, Stephanie's putting it right out there. The first part, as far as maybe he called her to ask for a ride, speculative, nothing to concretely lock that down. But this other part, you're saying it's coming from court testimony where she's saying, hey, listen, the day of Hayes' disappearance, he did tell me that he was going to ask her for a ride. So that's pretty compelling information. I wanted to go back to the phone calls for a second too, because I was reading the comments and it was mixed as far as my interpretation of what the multiple phone calls that late at night represented.

And some of you said, Hey, listen, he was calling a lot of people that multiple times. It seemed like when they didn't pick up, he continued to call them. You're right. A hundred percent. And the fact that he called her multiple times that night, it may have just been something he did. Although some other people pointed out that they had a pretty concrete system as far as that was concerned, where he would page her first and then wait for her to call and they could use that fake number you said, said, or the collect number. So she could click over and it wouldn't cause the phone to ring. But from the way you explained it to me last week, it sound like he called the house directly at 1130

So that's pretty late at night and the house phones ringing so it may be nothing It could be something but I think the takeaway that mainly I have and I hope all of you have Although we're speculating about the motive behind him calling her late night and how it could be something the bottom line What we're talking about here is this guy was eventually um arrested and convicted of murder and this right here in and of itself wouldn't doesn't hold any weight to me and and through that lens so as we're kind of talking about these things and throwing them around and thinking about what they could mean keep in mind that we're also talking about a guy who was eventually charged and convicted of this. And this right here, isn't something where I'm going, wow, he's guilty of sin. He called her multiple

times because this isn't completely out of the ordinary form. So I acknowledge that and we'll just keep going with it. But for me, when Adnan saying that he kind of was moving on doing, you know, other things and talking to other women and all this stuff, and yet he's calling her that late. It was just something to me that kind of stood out, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it was anything malicious or nefarious, but a lot of feedback on that. So thank you for in the comments.

That's gonna be the case with a lot of things that we mentioned. Sometimes we're just talking out loud and sometimes we're like, well, could this be this or could this be this? It doesn't mean we believe it or we even have supporting evidence. It's just literally theorizing.

And we're talking aloud to, you know, put a pin in that and say like, oh, let's look into that later. And when Derek had initially said like it's weird that he called her so many times that night, the next episode he was like, wait, pull up those cell phone records and see how many other people did he call that night just being fair. And then we found out he was calling a bunch of other people and i think we even said in the episode like oh okay this makes more sense now it doesn't look as suspicious but yet people were still like well what why do you think this is suspicious in this we said in the episode like oh this is less suspicious now that we know this may be his pattern of behavior but without that it did look kind of suspicious but now it looks less suspicious but we're not gonna just put it to the side and say it doesn't matter anymore as in many things that

we talk about where we're like well what could this mean and what could this mean because honestly this case is full of those so we're just thinking aloud and and kind of brainstorming you know together and and it doesn't mean that it's what we truly believe it's just like a possibility yeah and the other thing was don people are still there's some people still harping on don And it doesn't mean that it's what we truly believe. It's just like a possibility. Yeah. And the other thing was Don, people are still, there's some people still harping on Don. From what I understand, we talked about it. Ultimately, both sides of the aisle, whether you're team Adnan or not team Adnan, if you're undisclosed, nobody believes Don's involved.

There's definitely more out there and people who have documented it and researched it that know this case way better than us. Don's not the guy. So I don don't I can't tell you exactly some people were pointing out cameras weren't that great back then and maybe didn't have them that all may be true this would be a very easy alibi to confirm or discredit this isn't like he was at you know his parents house he was in a this lens crafters it's a business so there would be a way to discredit this guy really quick if he stopped it in the morning and then took off for the rest of the day or if he was never there at all. So I know that's not going to be good enough for some of you, but I think the big thing

you should take away from it is even the people who have come out and said Adnan's innocent and they've never thought he was guilty. And the people who are most vocal about it and know this case really well have said, Don's not the guy. We just wanted to use it as an example of something that wasn't vetted as thoroughly as it should have been, which I think is a great point to make. But even they don't think he's the guy. So if you don't believe us, maybe you believe them. Somebody was like, well, Rabia mentioned once in an interview that she did think it was Don or something like she alluded to. No, she alluded to it. And I'm like, OK,

I'm not going to take like a solid alibi that pretty much everybody believes who isn't like on this conspiracy theory train. And believe me, I'm I'm a fan of conspiracy theories as much as you definitely are. Yeah. I have my own that I'll never like get past and you'll never convince me. So I get it. and that's fine. But like I'm not going to take like somebody alluding to something, somebody who happens to be like in a position where she might want to see Don be responsible, alluding to something in an interview one time as like solid proof. They're like, oh, let's throw everything else out the window. And it's frustrating that you would pose that to us as like something that genuinely would change our minds. So we're doing the best we can, but we don't want to spend too much time looking at Don because honestly,

nobody thinks that's where you should be looking and it's distracting from finding out who actually did this. No, I agree. Sometimes you just got to let it go. And that's what we're doing. We feel like it's been vetted by people way more involved than us. We got to move on from it. Okay. Additionally, I looked into the alibi of Alonzo Sellers, the man who found Hay's body. There's their own set of conspiracy theories around him. And we were talking about him last episode. We were concerned that the police had cleared him after he passed his polygraph and that there was like, that was the only reason they cleared him. But it does appear that Alonzo Sellers had an alibi for the day Hay went missing. He was working at Copen State College.

He punched out at 4 p.m., which is after Hay failed to pick up her cousin from school and after she vanished. So Hay didn't pick up her cousin at 3.15 p.m. We know Alonzo didn't leave work until 4 p.m. Therefore, I mean, unless unless Don's mother is punching Alonzo didn't leave work until 4 p.m. Therefore, I mean, unless Don's mother is punching Alonzo out. Yeah. I mean, somebody will say it's a collaborative effort. No. Yeah.

That's another thing where we can knock the police all we want. Shoddy police work. Adnan, more than likely, never should have been charged in the first place. All that stuff. We're going to get to all that. But although people know a lot about this case, I promise you there's more that we don't know that we're just kind of formality here that are probably in the actual reports that shows these alibis were confirmed, not just because they took a time card and said, yep, good enough for me. There was probably a little bit more, maybe a

phone call to a manager, someone else who could corroborate that they were in fact there when those times stipulated they were there. That's not even like detective 101. That's police 101. That's like first day of the academy. You don't just take a document, whether it's on print. I don't care if it's in color or crayons. You have to have other people who don't have a personal interest in the case, confirm whatever you're reading when you're looking into alibis. So I feel very confident in saying that these alibis were confirmed by more than just the time card itself. And for those reasons, Alonzo and Don are off my list. I agree with you a million percent, by the way, that

probably Adnan should have never been arrested and charged for this. That's indisputable at this point, I would say. It doesn't know, he couldn't have been involved or responsible You know It just means like there's no Possible way and a lot of people are saying this on reddit a lot of people are saying I believe he's responsible or he's lying About something but I still think that his constitutional rights matter more than that and I and I agree There's a way that I'll tell you this right now I plan at the end of this whether I get shit for it or not,

because I know it's what you guys want to know. I'm going to tell you how I feel. If I feel that he was involved, obviously it's all qualified. It's speculative. It's just my opinion. I'm going to tell you genuinely if I feel he was involved or not.

I won't click bait you and give this political correct answer. I feel like everything I've heard so far, there hasn't been enough. Maybe that'll change. But one way or another, I won't leave you guys hanging and not giving my honest opinion on what I feel about him and some of these other suspects as well. The most frustrating thing about this is going through as detailed as I have been, step by step, like literally minute by minute, I'm so frustrated

that if the police had conducted a thorough investigation, if they had checked things like security cameras at Woodlawn High School, things like that, if they had actually interviewed all the teachers, if they'd gotten an actual timeline for what happened, this would have been solved. I think that this would have been solved one way or the other where it would have stuck, whether it was Adnan being arrested or somebody else. But because it wasn't, I don't think we're ever going to find really anything that makes sense. But this is my opinion. It's been very convoluted. We'll see. I mean, that's the big issue, right? It may never be solved or it may have been solved, but like you said, not able to process it properly because of the way the investigation was conducted, but on a lesser scale, but still very important, people like Don, it's believed by a portion of

people that he somehow is involved. And if they had done their work, law enforcement, to properly clear him and make that information public and put out the steps that they took to verify his alibi, you wouldn't have Don and his mother being accused of possibly collaborating in an effort to hide a murder that he carried out. So there's a very real possibility here, I believe, that they weren't involved in any way, shape, or form, but it must really suck to have a good group of people out there thinking, Ooh, you could be good for this. And it's all because law enforcement didn't take the proper steps to vet this alibi and make sure that was articulated

properly in a way that was provided, whether it was at court or in their documents, or at least release it publicly. So these people, if they're not involved, can be cleared definitively and not have to deal with this. So there's residual effects in not conducting a proper police investigation that not only affects the ultimate goal, which is to solve the crime, but also other people who are going to be speculated as far as their involvement. They deserve to have their names cleared too, if that's the the case yeah they did terrible job with this investigation it's like almost nefariously bad but we'll get to that all right so on a non-cell phone as we mentioned 34 calls had been made between 12 01 a.m and 10 30 p.m on january 13th 1999. four of those calls were to the home of jen pusateri and three of those calls were to the home of Jen Pusateri, and three of those calls were to Jen's pager number, making Jen the person that it appeared Adnan had called the most that day, the day that

Heyman Lee disappeared. But that didn't make a lot of sense, right? Considering Jen was not a close friend of Adnan's, she was a close friend of Jay Wild's. So the police are obviously going to want to speak to her and find out why did Adnan call you so much? What did you speak about that day? Because they don't know that Jen's not a friend of Adnan's. They don't know that Jen's a friend of Jay's. They think there's something going on here. So detectives visited Jen at her house on February 26th, 1999, to ask her these questions.

And they actually pulled into her driveway just as she was getting in her car and getting ready to leave for that day. Jen told the police she was busy and she couldn't talk at that moment, but she would get in contact with them later. Jen would later testify that she had left her house and gone over to the workplace of her good friend Jay Wilds, who at that time was employed at an adult video store. Jen told Jay that the police had come to her house, they wanted to ask her questions, and she wanted to know what she should do. And she claimed that Jay told her to talk to the police, tell them everything she knew, but only enough to keep her out of trouble,

and then she should point the police in his direction. Jen did go into the police station that night, but she was there only briefly and the statement she gave them was completely different than what she would claim later. As far as we can tell from the very limited notes taken from the interaction on the evening of February 26th, Jen claimed she knew nothing about the disappearance or death of Hayman Lee.

What is interesting though is the very next morning, on February 27th, law enforcement searched for Hay's car in the parking lot of the BWI airport, and airport transit authority was given the instructions to check all park and ride lots for Hay's car. And then, on February 27th, Jen Pusateri went back to the police station, this time in the company of her mother and an attorney. And during the next two hours, she gave a statement which would not only lead the police to Jay Wilds, but point an accusatory finger at Adnan Syed. In this episode and the next one, we are going to go over the day and the evening of January 13th, 1999 from Jen's perspective, from Jay's perspective, and from Adnan's perspective. There's a lot of information, a lot of details and changing stories, so it's going to get confusing, but hopefully we can make some sense of it or at least identify

the details that make no sense and could not have possibly happened and figure out that way, like who's lying the most. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this because, again, I did go a little bit ahead, learned a little bit about Jay and the process. And I do feel like this is the point where law enforcement started to hear these statements and what we're going to talk about and said, OK, yeah, well, this is clearly our guy. Now we have to build the case around him. So let's reverse engineer it. Right. So that's why it was a shitty investigation because they were, I don't think they were honed in on him immediately. Like some of you think,

I think that once they heard this conversation, they completely switched gears and changed the course of their direction. And we're like, okay, how do we build this case to go after Adnan? He's our guy. You know, some of you believe that from day one, they were like, oh, it's definitely the Muslim kid. I don't think they were thinking that. I think that they were genuinely looking at it as a missing person and a runaway potentially. Then maybe, okay, something bad might've happened here. Who could it have been? They're grilling Don, they're grilling Alonzo, they're grilling Adnan. They're asking teachers. They're grilling Alonzo. They're grilling Adnan. They're asking teachers to- You got the anonymous call.

Yep, anonymous call. So I think they're starting to change. And then this whole series of events, which we're going to cover tonight, if you're going to pinpoint the reason why law enforcement ultimately pushed all their chips into the middle on one particular person, that person being Adnan, this is probably where it came from. It's definitely where it came from. It's definitely where it came from. And reverse engineering the case is exactly what they did, in my opinion, and obviously the

opinion of many others. But some people say they didn't. But the opinion is that they definitely did. And I don't see once you see all these different versions, how you could say they didn't do that, because any cop would hear like all these different versions of Jay's story and be like, what the hell are you talking about, kid? You're lying because you can't keep this straight. Right. But these cops didn't. It was almost like they were the ones who were causing him to change his story, whether it was outwardly or, you know, just by the power of suggestion, whatever it is. And we'll talk about that. They were definitely, in my my opinion allegedly responsible for how this kind of spiraled and why he had so many different stories but for the life

of me I still can't figure out why like would you really get tunnel vision on a high school kid that hard that you're willing to like build this entire like sand castle out of lies in order to put him in prison for life like they had to have believed that he had done it so vehemently that they were willing to really compromise everything that they stood for. Well, I think it's two different worlds, right? I think there's one world where cops are really guessing from the beginning. And instead of trying to just follow the leads, they already know the end result.

And they're just trying to find all the pieces that fit it forward. So like, hey, we know what we got to get to. Let's just build the pieces to get there. Or in this case, I do feel, call me a defender of law enforcement. They get a really compelling statement from someone who directly implicates Adnan with details about the case that you really shouldn't know. And they're like, oh, this is our guy. And now they're going like you said

they're going to go do whatever they have to do to justify the end then caught the end result they they know they got their guy the case is shoddy against them but they're willing to go into the gray areas to try to get them which is wrong which is wrong i'm not saying that's a justifiable reason that's just a feeling on what they did but I really want to hear it because I haven't heard all the details. I really only heard and watched clips and read some clips about Jay. Jen, I haven't really heard much from her. I want to hear what Adnan's take is on all this. So this was the episode that I was looking forward to the most.

Out of the whole series, this is the part that I was really wanting to get to. Yeah. So what's interesting is jay's first statement which we are going to talk about today like you said did he know some things that he he shouldn't have known otherwise yes but couldn't that also suggest that he was like the one who did it 100 so why wouldn't they go down that avenue that's a great question right it's a great question and i know there's a lot of people out there who have the same question. So this is going to be a good, great episode. This is really get into what, what I think a lot of people are here for, but we had, I'm not mad that we spent three

parts doing the other stuff. Cause we, in order to get to this point, you really got to know the backstory. And I feel confident saying that more than likely nobody laid out that backstory more, more than we did. We got six, what is it now? Six hours, a little over six hours of backstory. It's not just backstory. Stop. You know what I'm saying? All the foundation, all the nuances. I feel like I know these people now. And so that's how you get there. It's six hours. We're really committed at this point. So it's going to be good. Looking forward to getting into it. Let's take a quick break before we actually dive into the meat and potatoes. So before we even talk about the timelines of Jen, Jay, and Adnan, let's look at what the prosecution claimed happened on the day of January 13th and when they claimed certain things happened.

Now, according to the state's case against Adnan, Hay was dead by 2.40 p.m. because it was between 2.30 and 2.40 when Adnan allegedly called Jay and told him to drive to the Best Buy parking lot. And that's where, allegedly, Adnan proceeded to pop the trunk of Hay's car and show Jay the body of Hay inside the trunk of that car, and she was no longer alive. The prosecution claimed that by 7.06 p.m., Jay and Adnan were in Leakin Park burying Hay's body. After this, Jay and Adnan left the park and abandoned Hay's car in the parking lots of an apartment complex on Edgewood Road, and then they proceeded to drive around in Adnan's car together. And all throughout the day, both Adnan and Jay were making calls on Adnan's cell

phone, which allegedly allowed the police to track their location throughout the day based on what tower they were pinging off of when the calls were made. And this was actually very cutting edge for a police investigation and a murder trial at the time because this happened in 1999 and cell phones were just becoming popular. So the technology wasn't as understood then as it is now. And, you know, the Best Buy parking lot is in the area that's covered by that tower or Leakin Park is in the area covered by that tower. But now, you know, in 2022, we realize it really isn't that black and white. We often see cell phone tower maps where it looks like the area that each tower covers is like a wedge or a cone

shape kind of going out from the tower, and there's about one to two miles of range. But in reality, radio waves do not behave themselves that uniformly. They can be blocked by topography and other obstacles, and they can seep into areas outside the 120-degree focus area. The range they cover can vary widely as well from a few feet to several miles. And going even further and complicating matters even more, cell phone experts say that a phone call doesn't necessarily use the nearest tower. When a phone is in the range of more than one tower, an algorithm decides a tower based on factors such as signal strength and traffic. But I also would like to mention that this was 1999, which meant there were fewer cell phone towers than there are now, far fewer. And obviously, there were far less people using the

towers because having a cell phone at that time would have been like an exception, not the norm. So I do think that there's still important information to glean from the cell tower location records. Even if they aren't giving exact locations, it still does show movement. It shows like an estimated location things like that we can kind of try to put two and two together understanding that it may not be an exact science not an exact science but i do think that there's stuff that can be taken from this because for example if i say person a is in arizona and this is an extreme example and they keep pinging in Rhode Island.

Well, clearly they weren't in Arizona. Now that's, like I said, an extreme example, but the point I'm trying to make is if the cell phone is pinging in the general vicinity of where it's alleged that they were committing whatever act that they were committing, there is some value in that because if it's not completely off the beaten path, nowhere near where they're alleged to have been, then you have something, whether it's exculpatory or implicating in the sense that it's like, oh, hey, you know what? You said that Don was over here. We have his phone pinging 30 miles away. And then there's multiple towers in that area, whatever one it chose,

it would have been one of those. It wouldn't have been the one over near Lincoln Park. So I do think there's value in these cell phone pings. And I'm so glad you're putting the disclaimer on what they represent that it's not like find my iPhone is today. But at the same time, don't look at these and just discredit them because they are extremely compelling from what I've seen so far in many ways. Yeah. So they're not like exact enough to, let's say, use them in trial to convict somebody and put them in prison for life alone on those. But they are accurate enough, I think, to tell a story of what might have happened, to give an outline of what might

have happened and where the person with the phone may have been traveling, right? And they do say like the incoming calls were not going to be that accurate. The outgoing calls, the calls that were placed from the phone were going to be far more accurate. So they kind of don't have locations for incoming calls. But the calls also let us know like what's happening at certain times because people on the calls will be like, oh, when I spoke to so-and-so, they were in the car. Now, if so-and-so says, oh, I was at home, but the person that called them says they were in the car, now you have to sort of like adjust where they were and wonder if they could be lying. So it does help us there. But yeah, we're going to get into it. It's crazy. But let's start with

what Jen Pusateri claimed in her first interview with the police on February 27th, 1999. So Jen said that on January 13th, her day began pretty normally. She was on winter break from college. She got up and went to work. And while she was still at work, she called Jay and she asked him if he wanted to come to her house later and hang out. Jay said, sure. And he asked Jen to come by and pick him up on her way home because Jay doesn't have a vehicle. By the way, he does not have a car. He doesn't have access to a car. So he said, well, can you pick me up on your way home? She's like, okay. But then she claims that he got back in touch with her and she doesn't say how. She doesn't say if he called her back while she was at work or if he paged her from his house and she called him back, but he got in touch with her again and he told her that he didn't need to get picked up. He would get to her house himself. So Jen claimed that she left work and was back home between 12.30 and 1 p.m. and then Jay got to her house between 1 and 1.30 p.m. When Jay got to her house,

Jen claimed he not only had Adnan's car, but he had Adnan's cell phone, and Jay told her he was waiting for a call that he was expecting to happen around 3.30 p.m. Around 3.30 or 3.45, Jen claims that Jay received two calls. She said she didn't know who the calls were from, she didn't know if the calls were from the same person, and she didn't know what the conversations were about. But between 3.45 and 4.15 p.m., Jay left her house, and then Jen also left her house between 4.15 and 4.30 p.m. to pick up her parents from work.

She said she didn't get back home until between 6 and 6 30 p.m., at which point she had some dinner, and then she thought that Jay must have paged her, or she called him because they were supposed to be hanging out later that night. Her exact words about this detail are, quote, So I believe Jay paged me, or either I called him in one way or another. We, he left a message for me on my pager telling me where to pick him up." So there actually was a pager back in the late 90s made by Motorola where you could leave a message instead of a phone number. I looked it up. It was called Motorola's portable answering

machine. So if your pager beeped, you would actually pick up your pager and press a button and then hold the pager to your ear and you could actually hear the message. Now, Jen may have had this kind of pager. It was popular. I couldn't find exactly what pager she had. And although many people have used the fact that she said Jay left a message on her pager as proof that she's lying, it is very possible she wasn't, at least not about the pager message. I'm not saying she's not lying about anything else, but people were like, oh, what kind of pager can get messages? Well, there is a type of pager that could get messages. So she could have had that. And she mentions multiple times getting messages on her pager. So I don't think she misspoke or that she was lying every single time. So just to interject a little bit here, so I'm not going off on a

tangent when you're done with this whole section, just first thought right here, obviously I'm writing everything down timestamps. I believe and have believed this entire series that whatever happened to Hay, we believe she might've left. And I always go a bigger window. Let's say between, what do you want to say? Two o'clock to two 30. She probably left school that day. Is that fair? I know it's very very highly debated but this is what we do know she was supposed to pick up her cousin at 3 15 yeah she never showed up so in my opinion whatever happened to her whatever you believe it had already taken place do i believe she was already dead yes i do but you could also make an argument that she was being held captive whatever but whoever is responsible for this had already intercepted her by that point.

It was already well underway. So if we're to believe that, which I do, this is compelling for Jay in some ways. Because if you're to believe Jen at face value, she's stating that Jay was with her from approximately 1 to 1.30 p.m. to 3.30 p.m. And like I just said, Hay didn't show up at 3.15. And we don't believe that Hay left school. Most people don't believe she left at 1. So that makes Jay not the guy, if you're to believe Jen, because he couldn't be in two places at once. If you believe Jen, she's an impartial witness. She's not directly involved. She has no incentive to lie.

Jay's with her. Now, I don't know anything about Jen at this point. I wouldn't call her an impartial witness. Yeah. Well, again, I'm coming from, here's the thing, and you do this sometimes to me, Stephanie, you have the benefit of knowing what's coming up and I'm weighing in as you're going. So yes, my opinion could change, but based on what you've said so far, just take, if I were to take this person's statement, Jen's statement, that's one thing as an investigator, I'm making note of that's important to me initially without judging her credibility. I don't know anything about Jen that you don't know at this point, just to get that

out there. Based on what I've already said, which is she was like best friends with Jay, that they saw each other and spoke to each other every single day. They were very, very close. I would not call her an impartial witness just based on that because she really doesn't have any reason to protect Adnan. She really doesn't have any reason to lie for Adnan, but she might have a reason to protect Jay and to lie for Jay, especially considering the police came to her house and they're like, we have questions for you. And she's like, hold up. I have to do something, but I'll see you guys later. She goes right over to Jay and she's like, all right, the police were there. What do I do? What do I say? What's up? You know, let me let me defend her quickly. Again, I don't know her, so I don't care about her personally. As someone who is pro law enforcement, I would advise everybody to do what she did because you never want to get yourself in a situation where you say or do something that results in you being charged with a crime that you didn't commit. So as always, and this is coming from a former detective right here, always seek an attorney when you can to have them help facilitate the conversation so that you're protected. You should be protected.

So it could be just something where she knew that this was going to be coming around and she knew there was some information she had that could be viewed a certain way. So she wanted to protect herself. I'll also say this. It's not impossible. I'd have to know the dynamics of their relationship. But in my experience, both cases I've worked personally and researching cases and traveling the country doing them, most of the time, the relationships aren't deep enough where you'll have a young teenage girl willing to jeopardize her own freedom by covering up a potential murder for her friend. Not saying you guys won't find 17,000 cases that document the opposite, but that's just not my personal experience where people are your friends until they realize you could be charged with murder. And then they're really quick to dime you out because they want

to remove themselves from any possible conversation with you. That's just my initial thought. And, but if you tell me that the relationship is super tight, where these people would die for each other, then yeah, I guess she would cover up for him just like anybody else. But on the surface, if they're just really good friends, if she felt like Jay was responsible, my gut would tell me she would want to distance herself from him, not implicate herself. Well, I think it's a combination of this is what Jay told her and he's her best friend and she doesn't really know Adnan. So maybe she's like, oh, why would he lie about this? And then also, you know, add into that she's she's a kid. She doesn't know because this this timeline doesn't

it doesn't make sense, you know, even when compared to the cell phone records like her timeline doesn't make sense. But she maybe just was giving incorrect times because she doesn't know exactly when these things happened. And we've seen this happen a million times in this case, right? That's what makes it so complicated is you've got these kids having to be like, oh, yeah, this happened here and there. And then they don't know what freaking time it is. They don't even know like what day it is half the time. So she could be misremembering and giving incorrect times and then also kind of basing that off of what Jay told her, which she believes to be the truth because she's like, why would Jay lie to me? Kind of like you're saying, why would Jen lie? Well, she's thinking, why would Jay lie? Oh, I'm talking specifically

about not what Jay said, but if she's saying he was at my house, that's not Jay telling her that that's what she's saying. And that right there, if she's lying about was at my house that's not Jay telling her that that's what she's saying in that right there if she's lying about that that is a crime and she can be an accessory to murder so especially if Jay's involved so I'm assuming her lawyers are telling her that like hey listen what do you know about that day was Jay at your house okay when was he there and you might be right she could be off on the times a little bit but if she's saying I physically saw him at my house and he was there for multiple hours that's not Jay telling you that that's what you're saying so if they find out you're lying you could be

charged as well it's a big risk and if they paid the money for the attorneys I'm sure behind closed doors that attorneys telling her and her parents like listen this could get really bad really quick. So be careful what you decide to do because there's no going back. Once you put it on paper, you own it and you could find yourself in handcuffs as well. So be careful the way you proceed here. So that's true. I didn't think of it in that way. She did have an attorney and that attorney would have hopefully given her sound legal advice. But at the same time, she's also not stating like, oh, this is an absolute fact. She's like, I think that this happened at this time and I think this happened at this time.

So what time did she say Jay got to her house between 1 and 1.30? All right. So on the cell phone. He left at 3.30. Well, he got a call at 3.30. Or 3.45, was it? He got a call at 3.30 to 3.35. He was gone from 345 to 415. So he gets a call around 330, 335. He leaves at 345, right? Yeah. Those are pretty specific times, but let's see

where it goes. Yeah. So as far as I know, and I'm looking at the cell phone records, you have one call happening at 236. This is what the prosecution claims was the call coming from Adnan saying like, come get me, come to Best Buy parking lot. And this is when Jay went to go pick him up and saw Hay's body in the trunk. So this call would have been when Jay was in possession of it. And it says that he was located at Tower L651, which shows the area of Jen's house, but it also shows the area of Westview Mall, Jay's house, and Leakin Park. So it does support that he was possibly at Jen's house at that time. And this is what I'm talking about with the cell phone data not being like a perfect science. Like it's not saying on the tower, like Tower L651, Jen's house.

It's like Jen's house or this or portions of Leakin Park or portions of this mall, but definitely Jen's house was in it. So then it calls another call at 315. This was an incoming call. Once again, the location data for incoming calls can't really be trusted, but this tower was pinging off of L651 again, which is Jen's house as well. And then 321 p.m. Now, this is weird because this is a call to Jen's house at 321 p.m. So why would Jay be calling Jen's house from a non-cell phone if he was there? So what you're saying is she might be off by an hour as far as when,

so it could be 2.30 that he's getting that phone call. So right, you hear what you just said? That's kind of what the police did because they heard Jen's timeline and then they heard Jay's timeline and then they looked at the cell phone records and they were like, oh no, you didn't get a call at this time. So you must be talking about an hour earlier. Yeah. But then you're just like, oh no, you didn't get a call at this time. So you must be talking about an hour earlier. Yeah. But then you're just like, you know, kind of making it fit and making it work with the physical evidence. Where's the statement for her time? Or is that just what, who's reporting that she gave those

times? Her, in her police interview. There's a transcript of her police interview giving all of these times that I'm giving. Yes. Okay. 3.30 to 3.35. And yet the call log doesn't support a call at 3.30, 3.35. And then there's another call at 3.32 PM, a two minute and 22 second call. This is a call to a girl named Nisha that Jay did not know, but who Adnan was sort of dating. Now understand at this point, Adnan says he's still at school, that he is not with Jay, that Jay has his car and his cell phone, but we have this Nisha call and we're going to get in depth into this call because this is the one call that really looks bad for Adnan because why

would Jay call Nisha and be on the phone with her for two minutes and 21 seconds when he didn't know her? Yeah, it could be, the times could be off, but again, it's something where you kind of have to put it all together once you have the full picture and try to make sense of it, but it's not clear cut, which is again, a problem for law enforcement, for a problem for prosecutors, because the same questions we're asking, they're going to ask. I will say this, times aside, I still think Jay was at her house for a duration of time. He must have been. It's harder to remember times, but I think it's easier to remember durations. And I think there's a big difference between being there for 15 minutes and an hour and 15 minutes. I can see

times being off, but if she's saying, if she believes that he was there for 15 minutes and an hour and 15 minutes. I can see times being off, but if she's saying, if she believes that he was there for multiple hours, I would like to believe that that's true. But I will say the 321 call that you're talking about, where you have Adnan's cell phone calling Jen, which we believe Jay was most likely in possession of it at that point, that wouldn't make sense. It wouldn't put Jay at Jen's house. Or could that have been Adnan calling Jen's house? But according to Jen, Jay's at her house with Adnan's car and cell phone, right? Because allegedly, according to Jay later, Adnan is with Hay and Hay's car.

And Adnan's going to call Jay to have him come pick him up and follow him around and help him get rid of Hay's body and Hay's car. So Adnan's not there. Adnan's with Hay's car. And Adnan's going to call Jay to have him come pick him up and follow him around and help him get rid of Hay's body and Hay's car. So Adnan's not there. Adnan's with Hay's car. Jay has Adnan's cell phone and car. So Jen says she's at his house now with the car and cell phone. Why is he calling her house from the cell phone? So he wasn't at her house. Now, maybe he left earlier than she claimed. And I agree. I don't see her lying about him being there at all. That would be insane, don't you think? But that does put Jay back in play. That puts Jay back in play because now if he left, let's just say for this conversation, he left at 2.30 instead of 3.30. Well, that's a window

if we're to believe that Hay got out of school around two o'clock, that is a window where Jay could have had an interaction with Hay before 315 when she was supposed to pick up her cousins. Because we have to remember, and I saw this in the comments by some people about Don when they were defending Don. They're like, oh, he couldn't have done all that, you know, hidden her body and done all that by 330. No, that doesn't have to be true. There could have been an initial incident and then a temporary hiding, a temporary

spot, and then a later process of going through the whole, trying to dispose of evidence. So you really, the act of killing her is the only thing that has to take place in that hour window, which it would only take minutes. So you figure there's a brief conversation, it escalates, and that's, you know, she's killed. So it doesn't take long. It's a very small window of time that you would need in order to carry this out. So with that being said, operating under the assumption that he was back in play at 2.30, he is a viable person of interest for sure. Yeah, but Jen's got him there between 1.30 and 3.30 basically, like basically the exact time that you'd worry about giving somebody an alibi.

Yeah. I think she's wrong. She must be wrong. If that's what we're to believe, she's wrong on the timeframe where it could be three o'clock. It doesn't even have to be completely off. He could have left by three and then the call at 3.21 is maybe him calling because he's already gone. But I will say this, those minutes matter and we'll never know now. But here's the thing. If he left at 230, I think he's in play. If he left at three o'clock, like let's say we knew for certain he left at 301. Well, I think the possibility of him being involved is now slim to none because he didn't

do it in 12 minutes before she was supposed to arrive to pick up her cousin at 315. So those minutes matter. And that's the problem with this case, right? Here's another issue with this case is having witnesses that, let's just for this conversation, say they're telling the truth, but they're not good witnesses. They're not good witnesses. They can't tell time. So, I mean, it's a problem. Whether it's intentional or accidental, it's a major issue, especially when we're going after a murder case here. You need to know these times. There needs to be a level of specificity in dates and times in order to convict anyone of murder. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I'm looking at Tower L651,

which is where, you know, he was pinging off of for most of the time in this like alibi, you know, area. And it covers a lot. It covers that best buy that apparently her body was seen in the parking lot of. It covers Security Square Mall,

Adnan's house, Adnan's mosque. It's right on the verge of being near Jay's house. It's like it could be a million places that he was in that time. It doesn't necessarily have to be Jen's house. All right, let's take a break. We'll be right back. Okay, so we're back. So Jen claims she got a message on her pager. And in this message, she said Jay instructed her to pick him up at a park between 7 and 8 p.m. But the message was confusing. So she called him on the cell number that he'd called from. And at this point, Adnan picked up. And according to Jen, Adnan told her that Jay was busy at that moment, but he would call her later when he was ready to get picked up. According to the case against Adnan, at this time, he and Jay were in Leakin Park, burying Hay's body. So Jen then said she got a page from Jay between 8 p.m. and 8.30 p.m. telling her to come and get him from the Westview Mall parking lot in front of Value City Furniture. So Jen drove there.

And then when she got there, Jay wasn't there yet. But he pulled up with Adnan in Adnan's car a few minutes later. She said she believed Adnan was driving, but maybe Jay was driving, but she thought Adnan was driving. So she said Jay opened the door of her car. And then Adnan waved at her and said, what up, girl? And then Jay slid into the passenger seat of her car. He told Adnan waved at her and said, what up, girl? And then Jay slid into the passenger seat of her car. He told her, let's go. And then he told her, quote, now, Jen, I need you to keep

your mouth shut. If I tell you this, I have to tell you because I need to tell somebody. I'm the only person that knows, and I need to tell somebody, end quote. Jay told Jen that Hay had broken Adnan's heart, and so Adnan had killed her. Jen asked Jay what his involvement had been, and he told her he had no involvement. Jen asked how Jay had known Hay was dead, and Jay said that Adnan had showed him her body in the trunk in the parking lot of Best Buy. Jay also said that Adnan was going to get caught, that he knew where Adnan had dumped the shovel or shovels that were

used to bury Hay, and then he told Jen to take him back to Westview Mall. She drove him back to the parking lot. She claims he got out of her car and walked towards the dumpsters. When he came back, Jen said he was really shooken up, and he told her that she had to bring him to see his girlfriend, Stephanie. According to Jen, quote, I think I took him to see his girlfriend, Stephanie. According to Jen, quote, "'I think I took him to see Stephanie "'cause he was very concerned for Stephanie's wellbeing. "'He didn't want Adnan to ever talk to Stephanie again. "'He didn't want Stephanie to talk to Adnan again, "'but he didn't know how to tell Stephanie

"'not to talk to Adnan "'because if he said something like that to Stephanie, "'then she's gonna be like, why, he's my friend, you know, "'and Jay didn't want to have to explain anything,' anything end quote so there is a theory that Jay was the one who killed hey min Lee and he did so specifically to frame it non because he was jealous he was jealous of how close his girlfriend Stephanie and Adnan were he was jealous that Adnan was young and good-looking and going. And Stephanie's parents loved Adnan, whereas they were not huge Jay fans.

Now reportedly, Stephanie McPherson was a gorgeous young woman. She was described as almost super model pretty. She was smart, athletic, ambitious, and maybe Jay worried that she'd realize she was too good for him one day because he was a drug dealer working at a pornographic video store

and like her parents didn't approve of him and she had been best friends with Adnan since they were in second grade and she thought Adnan was her best friend and things like that so maybe there was you know some jealousy there and resentment and as far as theories go I don't think it's any more far-fetched than the theory that Adnan killed Hay because she had embarrassed him and broken his heart. Man, maybe I'm missing something here. And by all means, correct me, but it sounds like that theory, Jen's stating that with her own eyes, and her ears, she called the cell phone that had paged her. She called it right back. When she called it back, Adnan picked up. That's a very hard thing to screw up. Yeah, but Adnan doesn't deny that he was with Jay at this time he just says he wasn't in Leakin Park burying Hay's body he claims he was with Jay Jay had picked him up

because this is like you know 7 8 p.m by now he Adnan said that Jay had already picked him up from track practice and they were like going around getting high. They were going to like one of Jay's friends houses and things like that. So he had already killed her earlier in the day. Allegedly he had already killed her. And according to Jay and the prosecution, they were in Lincoln Park burying her body. But Adnan says, no, I was just with Jay at this point. So yeah, he could have answered the call. No problem. So I will say this, this would be part of the reason that maybe, this is the reason why Jen, when she was approached by law enforcement immediately, was like, I need to meet up with you guys later. Because she knew 100% what they were reaching out to her for. She was waiting for this. And she was 100% scared because she knew he had divulged information to her about a murder.

She's a young kid in high school and she probably told her parents, probably told her parents. And that's why they got a lawyer. That's why they did all this because she was literally expecting, or I guess praying that they didn't coach show up at a house. But when they did, she knew exactly what they were there for. I'll say this, and this is maybe a little premature. There's one thing you can take from this. Whether you believe Adnan was involved or not, at some point, no matter what scenario you believe in, whether it was Jay alone or with Adnan,

Jay was there the day at some point when Hay was dead. Jay was there at some point when Sherbati was dumped at Leakin Park. not up for debate anymore this guy told told jen this directly so there's two scenarios jay's implicating adnan as well so we can pin it on him or what jay said is actually true but either scenario you want to believe jay wilds was there so yeah and don't forget for over a month they're looking for hayes car and on this night when he gets interviewed He leads them right to it. He knows where her car is and they've been they've been looking for it So I completely agree with you

But there's some people out there who say no he got all this information from the police The police told him where his car was the police told him about where her body was like that That's what they say, but I agree. Jay is involved, whether it's the involvement that he says it went down or whether it's just him and maybe somebody else. That's right. No, Jay was involved.

Allegedly. Allegedly, Jay was involved. And frankly, Jay himself has made these statements publicly, you know, so it's not even, he's the one saying it. Yeah, you're right. Jay was involved.

I mean, Jay said it in the Intercept article. I mean, he's come right on and said, yeah, this is what happened. So he now downplays his involvement and how he was hesitant about doing certain things. And I won't steal your thunder there, but that's ultimately his justification for it. He was afraid of how it could ultimately impact him with law enforcement, but we'll get there. But either way, I don't think you need to be a cop to put two and two together here. Jay is somehow connected to this directly where he at some point saw Heyman Lee dead and assisted or was the sole offender of, of what led to her being in that

position in that capacity. So yeah, that's, that's one takeaway here. I know you got to cover it, but listen, police ineptness and, and I know that there's bad cops out there that do really heinous things. And I feel like there are cases that are on video and cases that haven't been on video where you see cops committing criminal acts. They happen. I'm not disputing that. I've always been someone who publicly said that there are criminals who wear badges. Do I think that's happening here? And all these people are just in on it and law enforcement feeding them what to say? I don't. Nobody's going to convince me of that. So basically you're saying Jay is not some Manchurian candidate witness. He wasn't, you know, created from the ground up.

He wasn't just somebody who had nothing to do with it. And he came in and they're like, here's what you're going to say. I agree with you. I will say, like we talked about earlier, I definitely believe that they influenced his later statements because, like I said, he's interviewed by the police three times. He goes and testifies at trial twice. Not one of those stories was exactly the same. So once they get more evidence, they tailor his statement some more to fit around the, you know, the timeline. But I don't think that could have been prosecution as well, by the way. Absolutely. And I don't think he came into it blind. He didn't come into a blind like I know nothing. And they were like, let me pause the tape recorder actually jay you know everything and here's what you're gonna say like

absolutely not so he definitely knew some stuff right definitely that he shouldn't have known otherwise which is probably why they were so convinced that he was telling the truth oh yeah no doubt and i think that a big part problem with this this case is how inconsistent Jay was. And you guys can all speculate as to why that is. But I think my takeaway at this point is Jay's involved directly some way, shape or form. I want to ask you, was there significance in him being dropped off at the mall for a second? What's what's the significance of that? He went behind a dumpster. Do they believe he was destroyed through disposing of evidence?

So we're going to get to that later when he talks, but allegedly, according to him, this is where Adnan threw away the shovels and threw away all the stuff that he had taken out of Hay's car, like her car keys and her purse and stuff like that. This is where he threw this stuff out. So that's important. So Jen never said that when he got into the car with her, he had shovels and all these gloves or whatever. He didn't have that in his possession. He just walked over to the dumpster empty handed, correct? Yes. So to me, that does hold up. My reason being, if you were the person solely who went in threw evidence in a dumpster and were trying to separate yourself from said evidence, right? You go there, you dump it off.

Let me pose this question to everyone listening and watching. If you threw all the stuff in that area, are you going to go back two, three hours later to check on it to see if it's still there? No, you're not. You're not going to do that. That would be stupid. It's going to put you at the scene of the crime where the potential tools used in the crime were left. So why would you go back to say, yep, that's where I left them. They're still there. It just doesn't make sense.

So what would make more sense is he was going back to see if those items were still there or whether Adnan or someone else had went and picked them up and moved them again. And the reason he would do that is because he's like, shit, I'm going to get questioned. And as soon as I do, I'm telling them exactly where it is. And I want to make sure it's there so that when I do, it doesn't make me look like a liar. Yeah. And as far as I know, they never, you know, they, I'm sure they searched that dumpster. They didn't find her car keys and her purse and things like that. Those, those weren't in the dumpster. So,'t find her car keys and her purse and things like that. Those, those weren't in the dumpster. So, I mean. No shovels, no nothing. No, but I mean, they're probably searching, you know, over a month later, right? Yeah. It's gone. It's gone

at that point. Yeah. That was something that is significant to me because that is something I think Jen would remember where she's go, yeah, he got in the car, he had a shovel, he had a bag full of stuff. I couldn't see what it was, but he went behind the dumpster. And when he came back out, it was gone. He didn't have those items anymore. No, he had nothing. Yeah. So why would he go back there? Even if he's a complete moron, if he's the only one that dumped it there, why would he go check to see if it was there? He would know whether it was there or not. He's the one who dumped it. Why does he want to go back and check to see if it's there at all? That's the point I'm making. That's the point I'm making. That doesn't make sense. Yeah. What would make sense is that not say, let's just

take Adnan off the table for a second. He was with someone else who deposited those items there and he wanted to make sure that they didn't go back and remove them after they dropped Jay off. I don't even believe that he saw anyone throw anything out in that dumpster. Like, I don't believe it because her book bag was found in her car. Like her car keys weren't found, but maybe he knew that they wouldn't be found. So he could just say they got thrown anywhere. I don't know. It just doesn't make any sense. The shovels are the things that you wouldn't find the car. Cause that's the tool used to do it. There's, you know, there could be trace evidence on it. Those are the things you'd want to dispose differently from the car. Those are the tools used in the act of the crime. You want to dispose of anything separately. So people can't start like, here's the thing. Hey, they're probably going to find her car eventually.

Right. So we don't want to put the shovels in the back of the car because that's going to indicate to them that she was buried. Of course. So you're going to put those in two different locations. So that's probably why that happened. So we'll see very compelling stuff on the surface. I'm telling you guys right now, I know that Jen has some contradicting statements as far as times those things happen. I've said it to you since we started this podcast over a year ago. It is literally has taken years off my life with good witnesses who want to help and can't F and remember just within a three hour window of when something happened, because I'm asking them a week later and they just, they just can't remember. Even though I know the times, cause I have the video,

I can't tell them the time I need them to say it. And it's so frustrating to ask them. And as they're giving me the answer, like, yeah, it was one o'clock when I walked out and I saw the robber right across the street. And I had the video in the other room where it was clearly 1215. And, but I can't, I can't influence them. So I'm like, oh my God, that's going to hurt me down the road. Even though I know they're just innocently giving me the wrong time. Yeah. Seems like that's what happened here, right? Like they were like, God damn it. It's so frustrating because we know it couldn't possibly happened at that time. Are you sure it wasn't an hour earlier, Jay? Right? That's right. That's right. And that's wrong. And it

shouldn't happen. That's right. That's right. And that's wrong. It's right and it's wrong. But the reason I'm saying this whole thing is because I do believe Jen. Knock me for it. I believe Jen, for the most part, is telling the truth. I believe she was given counsel by an outside party who's not connected to it. And I believe that they told her exactly what could happen to her if she lied. And I think she went in there and everything Jay said not to tell anyone, she told them because she wasn't going to become involved in something that she wasn't responsible for. So at the guidance of her lawyer and her family,

she had diarrhea of the mouth. Was she wrong with times? It appears to be the case. That doesn't make her a non-credible witness or somehow directly involved with this as well. So according to Rabia in her book, she says, remember, Jen goes into the police station that night after she talks to Jane. She she said, I don't know anything before she came in with a lawyer the next day. They went to this lawyer's house for some reason. And this lawyer lived in like the same neighborhood as Detective Ritz. So they talked to Jen's lawyer the night before she came in with her lawyer and her mother. So that's just, you know, what Rabia says. I just want to put it out there because I know there's going to be someone who's like, well, what about this?

Maybe the lawyer is involved. And I don't know. Maybe he is. This is a whole conspiracy that has been put together by the entire town or the city to go after this one kid because they don't like his religion. Yeah. I don't know why the lawyer would risk like his, his, you know, profession and all of this, their entire, their, their livelihood. But you know, stranger things have happened. There's a boys club. They all know each other. They talk, whatever. They're like, Hey, you know,

like, you know, if your client says this, she'll be good with us. Well, who knows? But to give some credit to what Robbie is saying, let me throw this at you. Cause I said it like two episodes ago, let's say Jen goes in that night and she might've said to them, I don't remember anything, but future reference, I'm going to have an attorney. The attorney's name is, do we know the attorney's name? Not off the top of my head. Okay. Let's just call it John Doe for now. My attorney is going to be John Doe. Detective so and so might know that person just like I know a lot of defense attorneys and I'm friends with them and I have relationships with them. I golf with them. We keep business separate. We always,

we always remain professional, but could there have been a situation where if this is true, just going off what Robbie is saying, where the detective went over to this person and said, Hey, Jim, just so you know, make sure you talk to your client because I'm telling you right now, we're starting to close in on this one. And if your client lies to us, I'm going to bury them. So you better tell her the right advice. She better tell us the truth because if she decides to cover up for this kid, they might be thinking it's Jay at that point. If she decides to cover up for Jay. Is there a world where they're like, okay, she heard that Adnan killed Hay a month ago, and she has not come in,

and she has not said anything, even though it's been public knowledge that this girl's missing and that her body was found, and she's dead, and she's withheld this information. So if she doesn't come in and cooperate with us, she's being charged as an accessory. It could be an off-record conversation where it's like, listen, her number's popping up all over this place. We got cell phone data going back to her house. She better come clean. She's telling us she doesn't remember anything. She doesn't want to talk to us. That's fine. Lawyer, you better go talk to her. I'm telling you as a friend and as a colleague, I don't want to see someone go to prison for something they didn't do. I know that's ironic in this case, right? But I don't want to see your client go

to prison or become an accessory to murder because she's trying to do right by her friend. You need to have a conversation with her and her parents and let them know that this is a lot bigger of a deal than she might think it is. And it could, that happens. And there's nothing wrong with that. Are they discussing the specifics of the case? They should not be, they should not be, but I will go out on a limb. And if it bites me in the ass down the road, I'll take it. I don't believe it's the case I don't think the detective went over there and said hey This is what you need to tell your lawyer to say to us tomorrow. I just i'm just not buying it I think it's too many people now that are too far removed from it to risk their entire college education profession families livelihood for

To go after someone No disrespect to adnan. He's a nobody So why would they do all that for this person? It's not that it's not, I don't think it's that what we're looking at here. I know that. And by the way, that's probably a minimum amount of people that think that. Yeah. And especially now, I mean, with the popular opinion being that Adnan was wrongly convicted, you'd think somebody would come forward and be like, yeah, he absolutely was. And this is how I know, because there was this great conspiracy and they made me a part of it and I didn't want to be,

I feel bad about it. You know, like like this lawyer he doesn't have a client privilege with with a detective he could be like yeah they definitely like told me to do this this or that I don't know maybe I don't know I think the lawyer would have gone after them hey police came to my house I mean yeah I mean we're not on the same side on those things not if they're buddies I mean they could be buddies listen I'm buddies or I'm I'm friendly with lawyers but you know we're not on the same side on those things. Not if they're buddies. I mean, they could be buddies. Listen, I'm buddies or I'm friendly with lawyers, but we're not covering up murders or we're not implicating people. It doesn't work like that. They would dime me out. If one of these buddies of mine, and I'm putting that in air quotes, who I maybe played golf with a couple times, had dinner with, came to me and said, hey, I think my client was involved in this.

Is there any way you can make it go away? I'm charging them right there. You know what I mean? We're no longer friends. We're no longer buddies at that point. You just put me in a situation that you never should have put me in. So for a detective to take that risk by approaching this person, that's a big gamble to take. So I guess nothing's impossible, but I don't, based on everything you're telling me, I think the simple fact is here. Jen had this information for a while since the night it happened, it had been weighing on her. And as soon as she saw the detectives walking up her driveway, she lost all probably sensitivity in her limbs and realized, Oh my God, this is the day I've been dreading. Her instant reaction is I'm not gonna talk to you that night She goes in not gonna say anything, but I'm gonna have an attorney, you know

Maybe we'll get back to you and then the next day after speaking with her parents and her attorney They basically told her you better tell him everything, you know, and because it was a month later The times are probably off even more because this wasn't the day after. Like you have said multiple times, it's a month later, you're asking her to narrow down a time window within minutes. And I think it's not unreasonable to think she was off by an hour or so with her timeline, even though the duration of the time that Jay was there was probably a little bit more accurate. So quickly, before we move on, what do you think about the theory that Jay was jealous of Adnan and Stephanie? So he killed Hay to set Adnan up.

So I always hate going into these things because it's like you're asking me to get into the mind of someone. There's so many crimes out there. We just talked about Delphi at the top of the show. I'm really fascinated to find out what the possible motive could be because you know what? There is no motive. There's no motive that fits for a rational brain that fits the crime. So without knowing Jay and without knowing the actual dynamic between him and Adnan and Stephanie, it's hard for me to believe as a reasonable person, but if he's not a reasonable person, if he's not a sane person, yeah, I guess he could have been jealous, but it doesn't seem

like anybody else saw this type of behavior where if Jay was so jealous of Adnan and resented him, why is he hanging out with him? Why is he taking his car? Why is he taking his phone? Why is he smoking weed with him? So I do. I do agree with you there. And, you know, Jay himself refers to himself as like the criminal element of Woodlawn, a bunch like, oh, I was bad news, this, this and that. But there's an article I read where teachers at Woodlawn High School were like, Jay was great, you know, like he yeah, he was a little rough around the edges, but he was smart. He was kind of like a nerd. He was a geek.

He behaved himself like there's nothing about him that would say like he's a bad kid. But he like kind of makes himself seem that way. So he may have been self-conscious. Other people were like, we don't even know what Stephanie was doing with him because he was she was so popular. She was like athletic. She she was the the bell of the ball, basically. And he was kind of like withdrawn and kind of a geek. Like they kept calling him a geek and a nerd and stuff like that. So they weren't really sure

how they even ended up being together. And there may have been some self-consciousness there, but enough to make this elaborate plot where you're going to kill somebody who has nothing to do with anything that's upsetting you and then set somebody up for it. That's pretty extreme. Yeah.

I do have something in Adnan's favor, and maybe it's just because I'm remembering it wrong. Who was the last call before the calls to Hay? It was not Nisha. Who was it? Krista. Krista. Krista said that in first period,

Adnan told her he was going to ask Hay for a ride because he didn't have his car. And yet Adnan did have his car because he gave it to Jay. That's a verifiable fact. Yes. So what's the story there? You think that's in favor of Adnan? I think that she could be wrong, right? I mean, how, why would he tell someone, I don't have my car here today, but his car's in the parking lot? Well, she said he didn't have his car there at all and that it was in the shop or his brother had it. Now, maybe he said like, my brother has it and he meant Jay. I don't know. Well, she said he didn't have his car there at all and that it was in the shop or his brother had it. Now, maybe he said like my brother has it and he meant Jay. I don't know. Like maybe she thought he meant his actual brother. You get what I'm saying on the surface, though? Yeah. Maybe she meant like his actual brother. But according to Adnan, I mean, at this point,

he wouldn't have even talked to Jay yet. He wouldn't have even spoken to Jay yet. He doesn't call him until, you know, I think it's around like 1030 Jay yet. He doesn't call him until, you know, I think it's around like 1030 or so to be like, oh, hey, you know, did you get Stephanie a birthday present? So, you know, we talk about that later, but he hasn't even spoken to Jay yet at this point. So if he told Krista he didn't have his car yet and his brother had it, how would he know that? No, but I get, could we at least take away from it that if Adnan's involved, that means that when he's telling Krista in first period, he doesn't have his car, he's already intending on killing Hay. Yes. That's what people think that he was sort of

setting it up ahead of time. Yes. So either Krista's lying or, or this was a premeditated act where Adnan knew that morning what he was going to do. You said in favor of Adnan. So I thought you were going to be like, oh, like it looks good for him. I do think there's an angle where this could be good for him in the sense that Krista could be wrong or lying because we always go back to this on people that are like, hey, they're out for Adnan. That is an angle where it's like, why would Adnan say to Krista he didn't have his car when his car was in the parking lot? A lot of people have that question. And I don't think that Krista was out to get Adnan. They were were very close as you can see from his cell phone records just from a couple of days he called her all the time they talked all the time they were like very close friends

yeah and that that would be my angle as well i mean that would be my angles why i don't see why she would lie these are people who are not directly connected to it there's no incentive for them to lie against that not when they they like him. So I would tend to agree with her, but, but just for the people who are on at non-side, I'm saying, Hey, this is something you can hang your hat on because she's telling people, he told me he was going to ask her for a ride. Why would he do that when he had his car? So, I mean, that's, that's one side you can go with it. Not saying I believe that, but that's, I guess if you want to go that way you can yeah i don't see how it looks good for him at all ever but the whole asking her for a ride thing that

day because he and because afterwards remember afterwards he was like i absolutely did not why would i do that i did not ask her for a ride that day so he's denying it but so many people recall a conversation where he did ask her so why would he be asking her for a ride and then deny it if it didn't make him look bad in some way? So anything where he's asking her for a ride on January 13th makes him look bad, in my opinion. I completely agree. Yeah, this whole up to this point, we have a lot more to go. It does not look well, looks horrible for Jay and does not look well for Adnan. I know there's discrepancies in the towers, not necessarily because they've been altered,

but because of the technology and how precise they are. They are directional in a lot of ways as well. So there's a lot that could be taken from it, but you do have to have some level, a lens, if you will, where you're open to interpretation a little bit, because it's a science in ways, but it's not as accurate as we would like it to be. So yeah, up to this point, even the specifics that Jay's giving, it goes back to either Jay did it alone or Adnan was there and he's just regurgitating what he remembered. So really bad for Jay, not looking great for Adnan. Yeah. So remember, Jay has Jen bring him to this parking lot. He goes over to the dumpster. He comes back. He's all shook up. And he says, bring me to my girlfriend's

house. So Jen claimed that she did bring Jay to Stephanie's. He was inside with her for about 15 minutes. She says five to 15 minutes. And then he came back out. And then he and Jen went to her friend Christy's house where they stayed for the remainder of the evening. She said she couldn't remember when she'd gotten home that night, but she knew it was probably late, probably sometime after midnight, and the next day Jen said she saw Jay again. She said it was raining, and he asked her to take him to another parking lot where he then disposed of the clothes and boots that he'd been wearing the night before in a dumpster. So the police now have to talk to Jay.

But the problem with Jay, which is more, I guess, a problem for us and less a problem for the police, is like I said, he's interviewed three times and he testified at two different trials and he never gave the same story twice. So Jay was interviewed by police on February 28th, 1999 at around 1.30 in the morning. According to Rabia Chaudhry in her book, Adnan's Story, there was a two-hour pre-interview with Jay before the tape recorder was turned on. Now, in his first interview, at the end, towards the end of that first interview, they do say something like, you know, you spoke to us before we recorded this. Is that correct? And he's like, yeah, but I don't see how it could have possibly been two hours. I don't know. I don't know where she's getting that information. Who's saying it's

two hours? Just Rabia? Rabia. I mean, yeah, as far as I can tell, I'm going to do some double checking on that. That's not normal. That's not normal at all. I can tell you there is sometimes a pre-interview. And part of the reason is you want to introduce them to you and your team and try to soften them up a little bit where they're more willing to speak with you before you saying, hey, just so you know, you're being recorded right now. Sure, yeah. But obviously you don't want to talk about anything that could be beneficial to the case before the recording stops. Yeah. I don't know why you would need to have a two hour pre-interview. You wouldn't. Could he have been in the building for two hours before being interviewed? So I'm just speculating here.

But did she get some time codes from the police department where maybe they had cameras and you could see Jay walking in at, let's say, 1.30 p.m. And the camera doesn't turn on until, you know, 3.30 p.m. So, no, it looks like the interview that they recorded started at 1.30 in the morning. So that's why I'm going to have to, like, go back and look now and see exactly what time did police first approach Jay, like, take him into custody and bring him to the police station. Because if it was, like, 1 o'clock in the morning or morning or like midnight, there's no possible way he could have had a two hour pre-interview that wasn't recorded because they started recording at 1.30. So that's going to be important. And I'm going to check on that. We'll check on that. And two hour pre-interview would not be normal. So I agree with Rabia that if that took place, that is, I would love to know why. I don't know what the explanation

would be for that, but I don't even know what you would talk about for two hours in a pre-interview. I'm saying I really don't. When you don't know this person, it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense, because if you think about it, the the the suggestion there, the what she's alluding to is they spent that time having him get his story straight. But in my opinion, if that two hours was meant to get his story straight and make it less confusing or more in line with Jen's timeline, then it failed

because it was not less confusing and it wasn't in line with Jen's timeline. So I'm going to have to double check on that. And like I said, at the top of next episode, I'll let you know what I found. Yeah. But what we can take away from this so far is Jay is 1,000% directly involved with the, at minimum, the hiding of evidence, the disposal of Heyman Lee, and he's dumping his clothes. I mean, this guy is guilty of sin in that sense. What we don't know, that one really important piece is, did she die at Jay Wilde's hands? Or was he just an after counterpart who came into it because of the reasons he said? But either way, and Jay's not denying this, he was part of the destruction of evidence, the disposal of evidence, and the burying of, or at least in some ways, responsible for the

hiding of Heyman Lee's body. So I don't know. I truly don't know what happened to Jay at court. So I'm interested to get there when you tell me what happened. But just tell me now, did he go to prison for this? No. Okay. All right. Okay. And I'm not understanding why. Maybe I will. I don't understand why, but he's implicating himself right here. I know he had rationale for it from the brief interview I saw, but he was disposing of evidence that implicated him. There's some things happening here that I feel would rise to the level of criminal, but I'll reserve judgment for now. But by Jay's own statement, he definitely helped hide Heyman Lynn's body and her vehicle. So he pled guilty to accessory after the fact to first degree murder, but he had no prison time after testifying against it non. And I believe when he was, I mean, obviously, like, that's going to be the answer.

But I believe when he was. But he was charged. And he pled guilty. Yeah. But I believe that he was also on probation when he was caught up in all of this. So I feel like there's- That's a whole nother problem with the judicial system. Let's do an episode on that. I had a question the other day.

Someone asked me about, hey, if so-and-so got convicted of a felony, this felony, they called me about it. It's their first time offense. What would happen in Rhode Island? And I said, you'll see him tomorrow. And she was like, what? I'm like, yeah, he has no previous criminal history. He's not a flight risk.

He's getting out with that. Even though it's a felony, he's getting out. So she was, couldn't believe it, but I was just telling her the truth. But I am glad to hear at least Jay gave this statement knowing that he was going to be charged as an accessory to murder. He was obviously going to be some as an accessory to murder. He was obviously going to be some type of plea deal for his testimony. But I mean, this is still bad for him. Not good to have that on your record, obviously. Yeah. Let's take a quick break and then

we'll talk about what Jay told the police. All right. So Jay Wilds is described by the police as a young black male, 19 years of age, standing at about six foot four and giving his employer as Southwest Video, which was an adult video store. So allegedly before they turn on like the tape recorder for the first 20 minutes or so of Jay being in there, he once again, like Jen, claims to know nothing about the death of Heyman Lee. But then he switched gears. He announced that he was going to tell the truth. And then he waived his right to an attorney. Real quick, because it's important. You're saying that there was a pre-interview. And then when the interview started recording, he was still saying he had no involvement.

No, in the pre-interview, he said he had no involvement. Okay. So that is interesting. So they were starting to grill him at that point and it was when he waived his right to counsel that they flipped on the camera. I don't know if that, he probably waived his right to counsel after he said, oh, I have no idea what you're talking about. I had nothing to do. And then they were like, listen, we talked to your friend, Jen. She told us everything. You're going to be in some trouble if you don't tell us. And then I don't know why the hell he would waive his right to a lawyer. I don't know why in the world he would do that. Why would he do that? A lot of people do it. I'm not saying I would, but a lot of people do.

He was a young kid. I mean, he was like 19 years old. He should not have done. Don't do that, kids. Don't waive your right to an attorney. Always get a lawyer. But then they turn on the pre-interview and they're like, OK, you've done this. You've waived your right to an attorney. Is that correct? Blah, blah, blah. And he's like, yes, yes, yes. He said that January 12th, 1999, that was his birthday. And he was hanging out at home with his girlfriend, Stephanie, for most of the night. He claimed that Adnan called him that night and they made plans 1999, that was his birthday, and he was hanging out at home with his girlfriend Stephanie for most of the night. He claimed that Adnan called him that night, and they made plans for the next evening, and you can see on Adnan's cell records, he did place a call to Jay's house on that night,

January 12th at 9 18 p.m. On the morning of January 13th, Adnan called Jay again, and Jay said at this point they made plans to go shopping at the mall. And according to Jay, he said that this call came in between 10.45 and 11 a.m. Once again, Adnan's cell phone records showed that he did call Jay at 10.45 a.m. that morning, so he was at school when he called Jay. But Adnan claims that when he called Jay at this time, the purpose of the call was to ask about Jay's girlfriend, Stephanie. Stephanie's birthday was on January 13th. Adnan had gotten her a little stuffed reindeer, and he'd left it on her desk during their class together that morning. And according to Adnan, he called Jay to make sure that Jay had gotten Stephanie a present as well.

During the Serial podcast, Sarah Koenig asked Adnan why it was so important to him to make sure that Jay had gotten a present for his girlfriend, and Adnan said, quote, Well, Stephanie was a very close friend of mine, as I mentioned, and I just kind of wanted to make sure that she also got a gift from him, you know? She had mentioned to me that she was looking forward to getting a gift from him. She mentioned that she was really happy to get the gift that I gave her. So as I would with any friend, I just kind of went to check on that. I kind of had a feeling that maybe he didn't get her a gift. And I had free periods during school, so it was not abnormal for me to leave school to go do something and then come back.

So I went to his house and I asked him, did you happen to get a present for Stephanie? He said no. So I said, if you want to, you can drop me back off at school. You can borrow my car and you can go to the mall and get her a gift or whatever. Then just come back and pick me up after track practice that day. End quote. Keep in mind, according to Adnan's claims, he was back at school from 1130 in the morning on, and he remained there for the rest of the day until after track practice when Jay picked him back up. Yeah. And if you're on the other side of this, you would say Adnan wanted Jay to have the vehicle for that time period. So when he asked Hay for a ride, his car genuinely wasn't there. If you're to believe this was all, this is Adnan, he's setting us up from the conversation

the night before, goes into school. Yeah, I'm going to ask Hay for a ride, all that stuff. Or I already asked her for a ride, knowing he's going to call Jay and find a way to make sure that the vehicle, his vehicle is not at the high school when they leave class that later that day. And Hay's not walking outside going, hey, your car's right there. What are you talking about? So obviously you can't have the car there and ask Hay for a ride.

Right. Okay. I agree. It doesn't look good that he doesn't call Jay until like 1045, but he had already asked Hay for a ride. I agree. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Not good. So Jay said that Adnan called him that morning and Adnan was like, we're going to go shopping at the mall. He didn't say anything about getting a present for Stephanie. It's just they're going to go hang out at the mall. So Jay claims that Adnan got to his house about an hour after that call. And once again, in Adnan's story, he has Jay dropping him back off at school around this time, the same time that Jay says he's showing up at his house. And he said that he left his car and his brand new cell phone with Jay so that Jay could go and get a present for Stephanie, but that Adnan could also reach him later and let him know when he needed to be picked up. I'm not sure why Adnan wouldn't just

be like, hey, track practice usually ends around this time. So I'll keep my cell phone and you just like, you know, come back to pick me up at this time when track practice is over, but whatever. So in Jay's story, or his first story at least, he's in Adnan's car with Adnan by 1145-ish. They're driving to Westview Mall. He said at the mall they did a little shopping and on the way back, Adnan asked Jay if he could do him a favor. Could Jay drop him off at school and then pick him up later? But according to Jay, Adnan hadn't said where he wanted to be picked up from. He wanted to get dropped off at school, but he didn't say where Jay was going to be picking him up from. What Jay claims Adnan did say was that he was going to kill his ex-girlfriend, Hay. Actually, Adnan said

verbatim, according to Jay, I'm going to kill that bitch. Jay said, quote, he said that she was, she just, they'd been together for a while. She just all of a sudden was like, I don't want to be with you. He couldn't believe someone could be that heartless or something like that. That was our conversation, how the topic came up. And I figured, you know, him bitching about her breaking his heart and him saying he's going to kill her are one and the same conversation, but it didn't fire any warning signals or nothing, end quote. Jay claimed he thought Adnan was just upset and exaggerating. And so Adnan had not said how or when he was planning to do this.

And Jay was like, you know, he's just venting, his heart's broken, whatever. It seems a little odd either way. If you're to believe it's Adnan and he's going through the trouble of trying to hide you know cover his tracks why why tell this kid jay who by all accounts he's not that close with why he's he's setting up this this scenario with the car you know earlier saying i'm not hey pick me up and bring me home and going through all this trouble to kind of give himself an out and yet he just directly tells some kid he smokes pot with like i'm gonna kill hay because according to jay adnan knew that he was going to need jay's help that it wasn't

going to be this thing where he could just like get rides from him and not tell him anymore and he knew that jay was like a drug dealer and had been in trouble with the law so he was like well i'm going to involve him because no one's going to believe him if he goes and blames me because he's like a drug dealer who's in trouble with the law. And I'm an honor student and like a good kid. And no one's going to believe him over me. That's what Jay claims, because a lot of people ask, like, why would he ask you for help? Why did he come to you, et cetera? Yeah, it seems like that would be a stupid move. But I will say criminals make stupid decisions all the time. That's why they get caught a lot of the time. So on the surface, it seems like how calculated Adnan would have been based on some of the information we had that he would not try to

find a better way to have Jay involved where not tell him he's going to kill her, but later in the day say, oh my God, Hay came at me with a knife. I had to defend myself. Could you help me? To put some spin on it where he's the victim Why why implicate yourself this way? It just seems like it wouldn't make a lot of sense, but the way you explained it Maybe he's that's why he's going outside the school He's going to someone who like you said has a criminal past has things to lose and and may based on some of their previous Conversations feel like Jay Wilds is the type of person that would do something like this, that would be involved in something like this. So who knows? Right, exactly. So, well, that's what Jay claims at least, you know, because it's a valid question,

like why if he's trying to hide this. But I do think if Adnan did this, he did need help. You know, he couldn't take Hay and her car and then get back to school in time to make it look like he was still there. He'd need somebody to, you know, be like a getaway driver. Yeah. So at Woodlawn High School, Jay said Adnan gave him his car and left his cell phone in the glove box. And this was around 1230 p.m. After leaving Woodlawn, Jay claims he went to Mark Pusateri's house. And this has always been interesting to me because Mark is Jen's little brother. I believe at that time he was 15 years old. Now, in this first interview, Jay acts as if he was there to see Mark, not Jen.

And actually, when he does refer to Jen in the beginning portions of his interview, he calls her Mark's sister. You know, like Mark's sister got home at this time or something like that. Jay didn't know Mark's exact address at the time, but he said it was off Ingleside Avenue. So I googled how long it would take to drive from Woodlawn High School to Ingleside Avenue. It's about an eight minute drive. That puts Jay at Mark and Jen's house by 1240 p.m., which already doesn't match up with Jen's timeline because she said that he arrived between 1 and 130. And Jay claimed that when he got there jen wasn't home yet and once again in this first interview jay makes it seem like he doesn't even know jen that well even though they were best friends and they talked every single day he said he didn't know exactly

when jen got home but he knew she got off the work around 12 30 and he knew that she worked in alakot city which was about 15 minutes away so he assumed that she got home around 1245 p.m. Now, it doesn't look like Mark Pusateri, Jen's little brother, was ever interviewed to give support to this timeline. And it doesn't seem like the police really ever questioned why a 15-year-old boy would be home alone in the middle of a school day. You know, because Jay claimed that once Jen came home she Mark and himself were the only ones there there were no adults in the house now in Jen's version of events she called Jay and asked if he wanted to hang out and then he showed up and they played video games until he got those calls and left but in this version he was there playing video games with her brother Mark Jay goes on to

say that he's just basically killing time waiting for Adnan's call that was supposed to happen around 3 p.m., and this would be Jay's sign to go and pick him up. And Jay said he remembered getting this call from Adnan and talking to Adnan around 3.45 p.m., and Adnan said, you know, come and pick me up, and he gave Jay directions to a place in the city off of Edmondson Avenue. Now, Jay referred to this place as a strip, which apparently means an area that people go to to buy and sell drugs. And the next part of Jay's story is very controversial because it's important,

yet he can't seem to be consistent about it. Jay claims that it was here off Edmondson Avenue where Adnan popped the trunk of Hay's car and showed Jay Hayes' dead body. Just to shoot forward a little bit, even though we're going to go over his other statements, in future statements, he says it happened in Best Buy parking lot. But at first he says it happened on Edmondson Avenue. And then later the police are like, well, why did you say it happened on Edmondson Avenue? And Jay said, well, I figured that Best Buy had like video cameras in their parking lot and I didn't want to be like implicated.

I didn't want these video cameras to pick me up, which doesn't make any sense because he's implicating himself by telling the police that he saw it in the first place. So why would he care where it happened unless he thought that there was video cameras and those video cameras were going to catch him doing something that he didn't want the police to see and after all you know there ended up being no video cameras um in the best by parking lot but then later in the intercept interview which i believe is the interview you're talking about where he you know i think it's the only interview jay ever gave he says actually the um trunk pop happened in front of my grandmother's house but i didn't want to say that because i didn't want to get my grandmother in trouble because i'd been selling drugs out of her house and i didn't want to like involve her so yeah the the story that they took to trial was that the trunk pop happened in the best buy parking lot but jay's first story has it

happening off of edmondson Avenue on the strip. So that's a problem. Obviously it's a huge problem for law enforcement, for prosecution, because you have a witness who's not being truthful, right? It's not a matter of misremembering, which by Jay's own admission, he's lying. He's deliberately lying over and over

for whatever reason, It doesn't matter. It just shows a lack of credibility when you're trying to evaluate how good of a witness he is. That's all. And I'm saying evaluate from a jury perspective, from every angle where this is your key witness. And he's proven that he's willing to lie directly to law enforcement officials. So that's a major issue because if he has a justification for lying, he's willing to do that. So you have to question every single thing he says, regardless of the reason behind it, regardless of the motive for doing it, whether it's because it implicates him or he's trying to save someone else.

If you're a liar, you're a liar and he's clearly a liar. So that's a major problem on the other end I find it so again sloppy that if Adnan were involved that he would decide to pick a public area like Best Buy to pop the trunk and show and Show Jay Hayes body that would make like the middle of the day to me. It's the middle of the day too. It's like 2.30 allegedly, you know, around there.

Sunshine out. People are going all over the place. Not the middle of the night. It's weird. Yeah, I don't care if it's in the back of the Best Buy. There's tractor trailers coming to drop off merchandise. Like why would you go to this public area to open your trunk? It would be in an area like Edmondson Avenue or the grandmother's house, something like that.

So I don't know why people do what they do when they lie to cops and the rationale behind it. I feel like you get in there and you're being asked a question and you don't wanna think too hard about it because then people are gonna know you're being deceptive. So they give the first thing that comes to mind and then realize afterwards that was a stupid answer. So they go back on it.

I see that a lot, but overall, this is a problem. This is an ongoing theme. Jay's a liar. He's not someone who can be trusted, even though much of what he's saying may be true. You have to take every single word he says with a high level of skepticism. You just do. That's why law enforcement officers, once they're caught once, like we said before, they're giglioed because now you have to question every single, because they found a way to justify lying to you before and they could do it again. It just doesn't appear that they ever giglioed Jay. They just kept believing him. Well, why is that? Because that's all I had. I guess it was all, but it wasn't even that long into the investigation.

You know what I mean? That's all they had. They had him. It could have been him. They had him in front of them. But they can't say, well, you're stating that you helped bury Heyman Lee's body, but you're lying to us. So we're just not going to use you at all because he's implicating himself. So as much as they probably hate the fact that he's their guy, he's admitting that he was involved. So one way or another, he's getting charged.

So they're just trying to get everybody else involved, even though I'm sure they're really hesitant about using him in anything because they know that he's not a good witness. No, I don't. I don't think so. I think that they they were like the ex-boyfriend's good for it witness. Nah, I don't think so. I think that they were like, the ex-boyfriend's good for it. He has a motive. It makes sense. What's this kid's motive?

You know, he's got to be telling the truth. And why wouldn't he lie? Because he's a big part of this. So he wants to not be in trouble. But it's like you've already admitted to everything that would get you in trouble. So what are you worried about, you know, telling them where the correct location

of the trunk pop happened? Like, what's the point to lie about that? There is no point unless it did happen in front of his grandmother's house and he didn't want to get her in trouble. But I mean, we have no idea. So what part don't you agree with that I said? Oh, that they just said the same thing.

That they just didn't want him to be like the way, they didn't want him to be like the one they had to rely on but I'm saying like they didn't have to rely on him They could have said like this guy's lying. It's probably him and investigated him more thoroughly You know instead of going the other way and like starting to investigate or like split teams into like you guys go check out at none but we're gonna sit here and focus on Jay because either way both of these guys were there and They're one of them's lying and we can't just assume it's a nun that's lying right so you're so you're saying that they you don't think they did that I really don't I think that they were like we need him and so we've got him

you know polish him up and make sure his story works and I don't know if that's because they truly believed him because of confirmation bias or if it was just because that was the easiest way to win in court? I don't know. I mean, I'm sure part of it was there, like he's implicating himself in a murder. So that's not going to end well for him. He may not do prison time, but it's, this is really bad for him. This is, this is not, he, he has to know this is not a good thing for him going forward. So why would he implicate himself in something if he didn't do it the answer would be right the answer would be he was involved but he actually did the entire thing

by himself so anything less than that is a good thing for him hey i'll take the i'll take the accessory to murder i was the one who actually killed her by myself this is a win for me you know so that would be his motive if you're going from that angle. But I think law enforcement, what I was trying to say was as much as they probably hate him as far as a witness is concerned and having to use some of the things he's saying to start your investigation, it goes back to that old analogy I always give where you're trying to build an investigation to figure out who was involved and your main witness is a pathological liar. So that sucks. That's not, but you, if you had four other people that were there and they all saw the same thing and one was more consistent,

you'd probably rely on that person's statements more, but he's the only game in town right now, as far as he's only implicating himself in that non. So they're going with what they have. But I do hear what you're saying where if they didn't do this, they could have spent a lot more time looking into the idea that, hey, maybe Jay knows all of of the story whether it's jay's story or adnan's story it is adnan's idea for jay to take the car adnan says it's because he wants jay to get a present for stephanie and jay says it's because adnan basically wants like you know an alibi so when they were at trial when adnan went to trial he like walked by jay and he said something like coward or something like that. And people were like, why would he say coward? Like, that's weird. What if Jay and Adnan were in it together, but Adnan was like, hey, you take hay or, you know, you grab hay and murder her. And then, you know, no one's going to look at you because what's your motive? And then we're in this together. And when Jay turned on him and pointed the finger at him, Adnan's like, coward, because Jay doesn't have a car. So if he's the one who kills Hay, he's got to figure out a way to get a vehicle. Yet it was Adnan's idea for Jay to take his vehicle that day. So it's not as if Jay called Adnan and he was like, hey, let me borrow your car to go get Stephanie a present today. That

would look more like Jay was planning to do something to Hay. But it's Adnan's idea, no matter what version of the story you're looking at. I agree. And I just don't know how you go from low-level drug dealer to murderer. And your motive is you were jealous of the relationship between Adnan and Stephanie. That seems like a big leap. And I know I keep going back to it, and you guys are probably getting sick of hearing it. If we're to believe, I keep getting the name wrong,

Krista? Krista, yeah. Who doesn't really have an incentive to go either way. Adnan was at school, first period, nine o'clock in the morning saying, I'm going to ask Kay for a ride home today. When at that point, Adnan had his vehicle at this high school and at that point he doesn't know for sure he's going to give his car to Jay he was calling him

to see if he got a present and supposedly this organically happened so the mindset of Adnan at that time when he's saying to Krista I'm going to ask hey for a ride home there's no reason why he shouldn't believe his car is still going to be there so that is might seem insignificant on the surface but is a big fucking deal and i say that with the profanity because it really really is a big deal now if we find out that chris is mistaken then yeah i guess i guess obviously that goes out the window but i just don't know how she would screw that up why she would say that. Other people heard him ask her for a ride to that day. Multiple people. So and we talked about that in episode one.

There were other people who thought they heard that as well. So where there's smoke, there's fire. And I still feel like that is a big deal when you're trying to evaluate Adnan's credibility, because that right there is, there's something nefarious, there's something going on there that doesn't add up. It's mischievous at minimum, where he's already kind of setting it up with other people that he's going to ask, hey, for a ride home. All right, let's take our last break and we'll be right back. Okay, so we're in the middle of Jay's story, his first story that he tells the police. He's at Jen Pusateri's house playing with her little brother, Mark.

And for the purposes of placing this event on the timeline, Jay claimed that he got the call from Adnan saying, come pick me up around 345. And that's actually kind of in line with Jen's version of events because she said he got the call at 3.30 and left at 3.45. So that makes sense. It's still not on par with the prosecution's timeline because they say he got the call from Adnan to pick him up in Best Buy parking lot around like 2.30 and that this was when Hay was already dead. So Hay would have been murdered, you know murdered between whenever she was last seen, probably

around 2.15 at school and between 2.36, I believe, when that call came in. So that's a very small window that we're saying this happened, but that's what the prosecution said. Well, it could be actually 2.15 to 3 o'clock, right? Let's say the phone call, let's say it's another person. Hay was killed between the time school ended and approximately 3 p.m. That's our window. It's literally less than an hour. You got about 45 minutes where somebody interacted with her, took her somewhere and rendered her incapable of getting to her cousin's place. Sure. But the prosecution in trial said that 2.36, I believe it was, Adnan called Jay and said,

come get me. And then Hay was already dead. Because they believe Adnan did it. Yeah. So I'm with you there. But what I'm saying for what we're doing, the window in which we 100% know that something happened to Hay was from the time school ended to the time that she didn't show up to pick up her cousin. So whether you think it was Adnan, whether you think it was Jay, or you think it's this unknown person that we haven't identified yet, it happened in a very, very small window. Now,

they've minimized that window even more by that phone call, but that's the timeframe we're dealing with here. So a lot had to happen in a very short period of time, which I will say on a grander scheme makes it a little bit more difficult to conceptualize an idea where it's just some random person that was able to interact with her during that time period and get into her vehicle, whatever it might be. Not impossible, but a little harder to put together because of how small of a window it was. I agree, especially because she had a point A to leave from and a point B to get to. It wasn't as if she was aimless or in an area she wasn't used to being in. So I agree.

But if you've got Jay leaving Jen's house around 345, it would take him about 20 minutes to get to that strip where he claims that Adnan was and where the trunk pop happened. Not at Best Buy yet. That comes later. So that puts him in that area around 4.05 p.m. Now, Jay claimed when he pulled up that Adnan was standing outside the car and he was wearing red winter gloves, possibly wool with leather

palms. And this stood out to Jay as weird. And so the first thing he says to Adnan when he pulls up is he's like, what the fuck are you walking around with gloves on for? Which to me is not. Why is that weird? It's like January and it it's cold there was like a snowstorm coming in jay later says that there's snow on the ground when they're in leakin park so why would that be weird i don't know but he claims adnan responded quote i did it i did it you don't fucking believe me i did it end quote and then he popped the trunk and said quote she's all blue up in there end quote jay said when he saw the person in the trunk, he knew it was Hay because he had sat next to her in biology and she was friends with his

girlfriend, Stephanie. Jay described Hay as wearing black skirt, stockings and a white blouse. So this is some of that knowledge that he has that somebody wouldn't have unless they'd seen her body because they did not say what she was wearing on the news. Right. And he wasn't at school where they're that day, earlier in the day. But this reaffirms the fact that there is some truth to what Jay's saying, right? Like Jay, without a doubt, there's a lot of what he's saying here that's absolutely accurate and that's significant. It's a big deal. Yeah. And he also said she didn't have shoes on, which is also significant and a big deal because we know she was found without her shoes on shoes were in the car right yeah so so how would he know that they're saying the cops told him basically no come on guys we got to be realistic here we got to be realistic we got to be honest i know i know that

this does happen but why do you got to ask yourself the why why are these cops telling him all this it just wouldn't make a lot of sense and they're going to rely on this criminal not to ultimately turn his back on them and implicate them and let everyone know that these cops did it. What what in what loyalty does Jay have to them? They charge them with accessory to murder. Right. So come on, please. We can't do this. I know that people can be like, oh, Derek's being so passive, you know, but. It sounds like when your dad's disappointed with you.

Come on, please. I know. I just, I just have a lot of faith in us. And I feel like I've earned the trust of people here that I call out bad cops all the time. I've done it on national TV and I've done it on this, on this podcast. And, and I don't mind doing that, but we got to use some common sense here and think like these police officers, these lawyers, all these people are going to do, they're going to jeopardize everything for this.

Again, no disrespect meant towards Adnan, but he's a nobody in the grand scheme of things. There's no, it's him going to prison for them is not going to change their lives in any way, shape or form. I know if you're going with the angle that this was all about religion, that's the play. But I just don't see any evidence of that did this but the police told me to they fed me everything and they made me they made me do it so i think the only options are it's jay alone or jay and adon together you got it yeah you got it we're we're getting somewhere here we really are and i think that we're catching i'm catching up to where everybody is but that's that's what we're talking about here jay jay's admitting that there. He has guilt knowledge. So I think it's less and less likely that it's some crazy outside person. It's Jay. And Jay had some type of relationship with Hay, not a close one, but they were connected through Stephanie. So could he have convinced her somehow to get in a car with her or go somewhere with her? I don't know how. But yeah, that's possible. But you nailed it it it's it's jay alone or jay and anon that's that's what we're having to figure out here which blows my mind that we have to spend any time talking about don's alibi or alonzo's alibi when it's like literally this all this evidence is stacked up against jay wilds a a clear scapegoat

if you want to believe it done right like it wasn it wasn't Adnan, it was Jay. But yeah, we're focused on Don and freaking Alonzo. Jay and Don are hanging out together. What? Don and Alonzo, they have alibis, but the alibis could be fake. The alibis could be fake. You have a prime suspect in Jay right here that could take the heat off Adnan. Why are we focused on Don and freaking Alonzo? Or anybody else for that matter. I will say, I will say that we're doing it for this show because we have to cover everything. Because as many of you, which you guys keep crushing me for, the rock comment, I'm never going to get away from it. I'm like, oh, you live under a rock. So many people haven't heard of this case.

But for you, you're making your own opinions. And we didn't want to go right to this because I didn't know the extent of Jay's statement and what he said and what he knew and what he knew without public information being released yet. This is even more compelling, but it's something where we're getting to this point together and there might be an opportunity during this whole thing where you diverge from where we are, where you're like, oh, you had me up to this point, Stephanie and Derek, but I disagree with you there. And you develop your own opinions based on facts that you've learned and based on what we said, which is great. But I think most people would say, yeah, Jay's definitely good

for this. Now it's a matter of figuring out, was it Ednaud? And I didn't mention this, but there's also a scenario where there's someone else, a co-conspirator of Jay's, a friend of his that was involved in this process that helped him completely do you know hide the body and all that so i'm not saying i know we're saying it's jay and alone or jay with that non it's technically jay alone jay with an accomplice or jay with that non that's the three scenarios yeah and i found like when i was comparing these timelines and stuff i found something that just did not add up and make sense to me no matter what the timeline was no matter whose timeline you were going by and we're going to talk about that in a second but let's continue on yep okay so jay said

that after adnan popped the trunk and showed him what he had done they began arguing back and forth for about five minutes but then they started drawing attention to themselves so adnan told jay to get in his car and follow adnan in Hay's car. Now, according to Jay, they ended up at the Route 70 park and ride off of Cook's Lane. Once again, according to Google Maps, the drive from Edmondson Avenue to the park and ride would have been only about five minutes. So let's say Jay got to Edmondson Avenue around 4.05. The trunk gets popped, they argue, for five minutes. They leave around 4.15 p.m. That puts them at the park and ride around 4.05. The trunk gets popped, they argue, for five minutes. They leave around 4.15 p.m. That puts them at the park and ride around 4.20 p.m. Jay said that they left Hay's car and

body at the park and ride, and then Adnan got in the passenger seat of his car, which Jay was driving, and from there they went to a state park that Jay referred to as The Cliffs, where they smoked a blunt and remained for about 30 minutes. Reportedly, Jay is referring to Patapsco Valley State Park, which is about a 13-minute drive from the park and ride, putting Adnan and Jay there around 4.35 p.m., leaving just after 5 p.m. Jay then told detectives that he brought Adnan back to school. He didn't know exactly what time, but he said the sun was going down, so it was probably around 4.30 p.m., which does not mesh up with his timeline because they should have just been getting to the park at 4.30 p.m.,

and if they stayed there at the park for a half an hour, as he claimed, and it's a 20-minute drive back to Woodlawn High School, that would put him dropping Adnan back to school around 5.30 or 5.40. However, when he said 4.30, Jay meant that was when he left the park to bring Adnan back to school. And the time of sunset for that day in Baltimore, it was 5.05 p.m. So do you see where I'm going with this? If Jay remembered leaving the park around the time of sunset to bring Adnan back to school, it probably was closer to 5 o'clock and not 4.30 and he was just misremembering the time because that would make sense. The sun was setting at that time that they would have been leaving the park if they got there around 4.35 and stayed for about a half an hour. So remember,

in Adnan's version of events, he hasn't even been with Jay this whole entire time. He's been back at school since around 11.15 a.m. Now I do want to point something out about Adnan's version of the timeline that doesn't add up and is very suspicious to me because in this instance, Jay's timeline actually makes more sense. Adnan would have gone to Jay's house during his lunch period, which happened from 10.45 to 11.15 a.m. based on when he called Jay, which afterwards he said he called Jay and then went to his house. So 1045 to 1115 a.m. was his lunch hour. But Adnan has Jay bringing him back to school during his free period, which went from 1115

a.m. to 1250 p.m. And as you heard, when Adnan was talking to Sarah Koenig of Serial, he said, oh, I leave school all the time. I have free periods, so I just leave and do things and then come back. So there'd be no reason for Adnan to need to be at school during his free period. And on top of that, Adnan had psychology class at 12.50 p.m., but he didn't get to class until 1.27 p.m. He was marked tardy by his teacher. So if Adnan got dropped off at school, back at school by Jay around 11.15 a.m., like he claims, why was he so late to psychology? So it makes more sense, Jay's version of events, where he said he brought Adnan back to school,

I believe it was like, what, around 12.45 or something like that i forget exactly when i wish i had my timeline but yeah he brought him back later and non says he got back by 1115 which basically has him you know leaving the school around 1045 driving to jay's house giving jay his car having jay drop him back off but then if that's the case why would he rush back for his free period why wouldn't he go to the mall with jay drop jay back home during lunch and free period back to back and then keep his car yeah because he would have been able to do that he had two free periods back to back that's right yeah no that's right and i and i do think well first off with all these times that you're giving me i'm i'm i'm viewing them with

the taking them with a grain of salt on all of them from all sides, from Jay, from, from everybody you've mentioned at non, because there could be some maliciousness there, or it could just be not remembering the times the right way. So with all of them, I'm giving them a big window of a margin of error there because it just feels like it's so far off and it doesn't seem like anybody owned a watch at this time. I guess they weren't really keeping track of it. As far as the tardiness with anon seems like he was late a lot to class so that could be a justification where he's just doing he's a habitual tardy student where he's always showing up to class late but that's extremely late i mean we're talking 30 minutes late that's that's

that's i mean how long is the class an hour it's closer to closer to 40 minutes late yeah 40 minutes late for an hour class it's pretty it's pretty bad i mean i think the class? An hour? It's closer to 40 minutes late. 40 minutes late for an hour class. It's pretty bad. I mean, I think the class was like 90 minutes, but still, it's like half the freaking class. Why even show up at that point? Yeah, we do have proof that that call was made to Jay's house from Adnan. Neither of them dismiss it. And we have it on the cell phone records that the call was made that morning around that. What was it, 1045.

Yeah, the 1045 when Adnan called Jay from his cell phone while he was at school and said, hey, did you get a present for Stephanie? I'll bring you my car and you can use it. But he's got two back-to-back periods. That's during lunch. And then he's got a free period after. So why not just bring Jay to the mall, let him get a present, and then bring your ass back with your car to school and your cell phone. And then you're sitting at school with your car and your cell phone completely whole. And you don't have to wait for some drug dealer to come and pick you back up later after track practice. Yeah. It might be trivial.

I think I said to you off camera when we're talking about this case. But for me personally, I remember my first pager. I remember my first cell phone. I thought I was the coolest person in the world. I can tell you the last thing I'm going to do with the first day I'm at school with my new cell phone is give it to someone else. Cause I want to have that thing on my ear between every class so that everybody knows Derek's got a new cell phone. And that sounds so like immature, but I feel like most people would agree. Like that was like, that would have been a thing. So, I mean, unless this

Adnan was really just that cool, too cool for school where he didn't care. And he's like, yeah, take my cell phone that I just got yesterday. It's my first one I've ever owned. But yeah, go make some calls on it. They were like expensive. Super expensive. The bill. And I don't know if it was a pay per call type phone that he had.

I don't know if it was. I'm assuming it was a plan if they were able to track it or whatever, because the prepaid phones are usually harder to track, but either way. I believe it was a plan. Yes. Yeah. A plan. So, because the prepaid phones are harder with all the way they work. We don't have to go into all that, but it's one of those things where I just don't see him giving up his phone like that when he, unless it was like an absolute emergency for a family member or something. This seems kind of like, oh yeah, just take my phone. When Jay can easily stop at a payphone himself and call his cell phone to say, hey, I'm ready.

I'm ready to come get you or whatever. You know, I'm coming to get you. Or he can call him at Jen's house. Or call from Jen's house or call from his house or call from any of the, you know, multiple places that Jay was when he's waiting for Adnan to call him and tell him to be picked up. Or like I said, just say, hey, pick me up after track practice. Track practice ends at this time. So just be at the school at this time.

Or, hey, I've got like two back to back free periods that I'm already leaving school for. I'll just bring you to the mall. You grab or something and then I will bring you home. Yeah. And then come back with my car. We'll come back. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense. And that's just us talking to people. That's just us using our own personal experience and common sense. And that doesn't necessarily mean we're right. Cause maybe Adnan was very different than us, but I will say on a day, you don't want to be late back to class is a day when you're telling law enforcement that you were back at school by 1115.

And as bad as the documentation was for that day between the the basketball or the track coach things like that the one time there is documentation that could verify at least in part what you've told law enforcement it shows you not being where you said you were going to be so that's not good i think we can all agree on that the one time when a teacher actually did have a physical record to prove that you were where you said you were. It's contradicting what you told law enforcement. Not good. Not good. So Jay claims that Adnan called him later that night to get picked up once again from school after track practice around 645 p.m. And then at this point, when Adnan called Jay, Jay said he was at home. So,

Jay went back to Woodlawn High School. He picked Adnan up. They went to go get some food. Now, this does sort of match Adnan's version of events as well, even though the timing is different. So, according to Adnan, it was Ramadan. He was set to break fast that evening, and after track practice, Jay picked him up. They went to go get some food. But Adnan has this happening between 4.30 and 5 p.m., claiming he had been at track practice between 3.30 and 4.30 p.m., although he did say practice may have gone until 5 p.m., but the track coach, Michael Sy, would later testify that track practice usually went from 4 p.m. to 5.30 p.m. or sometimes even 6 p.m. So once again, timing's off. And if you think about it, if it's going till 6 p.m., Jay picking

Adnan up around 6.45 p.m. makes more sense than picking him up at, you know, between 4.30 and 5 p.m. when track practice would technically still be going on, but I don't know. So Jay claimed that he believed they were at McDonald's on Rolling Road eating when Adnan got a phone call from the police asking about Hay's whereabouts. This would be the call that Officer Adcock made to Adnan at 6.24 p.m. We see this call on Adnan's cell phone records. We see it lasted about 4 minutes and 15 seconds. Jay said this call happened when they were eating at McDonald's. Adnan said this call happened while he was at Kathy's house. We haven't even talked about Kathy yet, but once again,

she's a friend of Jay's and a close friend of Jen's, and she claims that Jay and Adnan were at her apartment on the evening of January 13th, and she didn't know Adnan, but he was acting strangely. We're going to talk about her timeline as well later. There's a lot of things we have to push off to later because it's just too much. But back to Jay's first statement. The call only lasted for under five minutes, but Jay said it was a long call, almost 15 minutes. I mean, at this point, they're high because, you know, it's the first thing that they allegedly do before eating. So he could just have thought it was 15 minutes. I don't know. Time loses meaning sometimes when you're high. And he said that when Adnan got the call from

the police officer, Adnan freaked out. Then they left McDonald's and went to Jay's house to pick up some shovels. Now, at that point, Adnan told Jay to take him back to the I-70 park and ride. Adnan got into Hay's car and told Jay to follow him and Adnan led Jay to Leakin Park. Now I'm completely confused about this next portion of Jay's story, so maybe you all can help me. Jay says that he pulled up next to Adnan in Leakin Park, like on the road, and Adnan told him, oh, we'll park up around the corner. I'll be there in a second. And Jay said he went up around the next corner and he waited about 10 or 15 minutes. The police asked him if he could still see Hay's car at this point, and he said no. They asked him, was it way out of sight? He said yes. They asked

how Adnan knew that Jay wasn't just going to leave him, and he said Adnan didn't know that. The police said, okay, so you're up around the corner. Then what happened? Jay replies, quote, we dropped her car back around the corner, and I was turning around, so he thought I left him. He's walking around the streets, and I picked him up. He says she was heavy, and he starts to throw up, and then he was like, you got to take me back there. I got to bury her. And then he was like, you got to take me back there. I got to bury her. And then we argue for about five minutes. So we go back, we park the car and pull off to the

side of the road, end quote. The detectives questioning him asked Jay to describe the pull off. And Jay says there was white dividers. And the cops ask him if he's talking about concrete barriers. And he said, quote, yeah, it was some of those around, a couple of wood posts, and it's snow on the ground. And I seen her jacket on the ground, end quote. Jay's talking about Hayes' jacket. He says the jacket was blue and red. It was a nylon jacket. And when they asked him where he had seen the jacket, he said, quote, in the walkway, in the path. And I went back there and she's kind of like laying against a log and he asked me to help him dig. We argued some more.

Then I started digging a hole, end quote. So Jay actually says he started digging a hole. But later he's like, no, I never dug a hole. I never helped out at all. I didn't do anything. But he says this in his statement, unless they misheard him and they typed it up incorrectly. So Jay claimed that Adnan dug the hole and put Hay in the hole face down, and then Adnan picked up Hay's red and blue nylon jacket, sort of like put some dirt over her,

and they started walking back to the car, which Jay claims was only about 20 yards away. But somewhere along the way, he claimed that Adnan threw Hay's jacket into the woods. And Jay does describe the area where Hay's body was left perfectly. He said there was a fallen log and a marshy area like a riverbed, and Hay's body was found between a fallen log and a creek. Jay said that Hay's head was facing away from the road. She was leaning on her side. One of her arms was kind of twisted behind her. He said Adnan had dug the hole not very deep, only about shin deep. That was about how deep the hole was was and that was about how Hay was laying. Jay claimed he did not help Adnan. He did not dig a hole. He did not touch Hay's body. Not once, not even to help Adnan put her in the hole. Jay said that it took

Adnan about 30 minutes to dig the hole and Jay just sat there watching while he was smoking cigarettes on the log. The detectives asked Jay about Hay's shoes. Had he seen them? Where were they? Jay claimed Adnan had told him he had left Hay's shoes in the car. One of the detectives asked Jay about the timing. How was he able to see what was happening? How was Adnan able to see to dig a hole? Was it still kind of light out? Was the sun just setting? Jay said, no, it's been dark for hours. And the detective was like, well, how did you guys have enough light? And Jay said, quote, I can't recall, but it wasn't enough light. I couldn't read a book or nothing, but I mean, I could count change in my hand if I had to.

End quote. OK, so Jay and Adnan, they get back into their respective cars, Adnan and Hay's car and Jay and Adnan's car. And Jay followed Adnan as Adnan drove around looking for a place to dump Hay's car. Jay said they drove to Belvedere, which was another strip, according to Jay, and Adnan was going to leave the car there because the strip was hot anyways, but he didn't like the look of the area, so they kept driving to Edmondson Avenue and off of Route 40, and Adnan left the car in a strip there, but then he moved it because he didn't like that spot either. When Adnan had finally settled on a spot

in a parking lot area behind a bunch of row homes, he parked Hay's car and got out, walking towards Jay in his car and holding what looked like Hay's purse and some other stuff. Jay said that when Adnan got in the car, Jay basically was like, okay, fuck this, and he just started driving himself home, wanting to be done with the whole night.

But Adnan was like, no, wait, what are you doing? Like, we have other stops to make, and he made Jay pull over at Westview Mall, where Adnan proceeded to throw Hay's things and her car keys into the dumpster. Jay claimed that after that night, he had gone past the area where Adnan had left Hay's car more than once to confirm it was still there, and it was. He said the last time he had seen it was February 24th, just four days before his first police interview. After January 13th, Jay claimed that he and Adnan had talked about a dozen times, and during those interactions, Adnan made light of the situation. Jay said, quote, he joked about it, like said how it was cool, how he knew it went down and everyone was looking for her and how. But then on the same

token, he the next day, he'd be like, I can't believe I did it and feel bad and shit. So end quote. According to Jay, he did talk to Adnan a few times, a handful of times after Hay's body was found as well. And Adnan made references to Jay's girlfriend Stephanie, basically alluding to the fact that he could get at her, saying things like, you know, me and Stephanie are real close, you know, stuff like that. Like basically threatening Jay, like if you talk, you know, I'm close with Stephanie. So at around 2.10 a.m., the police have to turn the tape over, the tape that they're recording the interview on, and they have to record on the other side. And then they pick up with Jay giving some more details about the death of Hayman Lee. He said, quote, he told me he thought she was trying to say something while he was strangling her. He told me that she kicked, like knocked off the windshield wiper thing in the car,

and that was it, end quote. And when we get to the car portion, we will find out the windshield wiper thing that he's talking about was actually broken. So he definitely either heard that from Adnan or saw it with his own eyes. The detectives asked Jay if the impression that Jay got from his conversations with Adnan is that the attack on Hay had happened inside of her car. And he said it was. But Adnan had never made any mention of how he had gotten inside of hay's car to begin with jay also told the detectives that he told his friend jen pustari everything in case he got locked up and blamed for it that way at least someone would know everything that really went down and the truth so the police

asked jay if he told anyone else his mother or his girlfriend and jay was like no but i did mention something to my friend chris and i bet that adnan talked about it with his friend Tayyad because Tayyad is into that sort of stuff. Quote, like murders, killing, you know, he don't care. I mean, he talks about how it was wonderful in Pakistan, stuff like that. End quote. It's believed that when Jay's talking about this person named Tayyad, he's actually referring to a person named tayib hussein who was a friend of adnan's from his mosque and who had also attended woodlawn high school now in a blog post that uh rabia shaudry wrote in 2015 i guess she makes like a statement where she claims she

believes this person may have been the anonymous caller who pointed to adnan in the first place this person tayib was the anonymous caller and that brings Adnan in the first place. This person, Tayib, was the anonymous caller. And that brings me a little off the timeline. We're going to fast forward to August of 1999 when Adnan's defense team interviewed Adnan's brother, Ali. Question one, why did Jay hang out with Adnan and his friends considering that he was a couple of years older? Ali answered, everyone in the area just hangs out together regardless of age, but Jay usually hangs out with Ali answered, This also brings me back to what I was saying last episode where I don't believe that Adnan didn't know anything about Leakin Park because his brother, his older brother Ali, seems to know about Leakin Park. Yeah, he says it was dangerous. Yeah, people didn't hang out there because it was dangerous. So it's like, how did Ali know?

But Adnan didn't. But okay. Question three, did anyone use Leakin Park as a place to go hook up? Did Adnan use it for that purpose? Ali answered, no. No one used leakin park to hook up including adnan adnan used to hook up in aziz saeed's house aziz was known as the troublemaker aziz was one of jay's good friends question four how friendly were adnan and stephanie ali answered they'd been friends since the second grade they were close friends they would often talk and for long periods of time the next question asked what does stephanie have to say about this whole situation? Ali answered, Stephanie was telling people that Adnan had actually committed the murder. This being based on the fact that Jay had told Stephanie that he helped Adnan bury the body. The next question asked, has anyone else

made similar comments as to what Jay said about helping bury the body? Ali answered, yes, Taib Hussain. Tayib is 20 years old and attends the University of Maryland at College Park. Tayib asked Jay about the incident and Jay said he helped Adnan bury the body. Jay told Tayib that Adnan had called Jay the day before asking for his help in the murder. Jay said his reply to Adnan was that he would not help in the killing of Hay but he would help Adnan bury the body. Jay further went on to tell Tayib that he met Adnan was that he would not help in the killing of Hay, but he would help Adnan bury the body. Jay further went on to tell Taib that he met Adnan on the day of the incident at a gas station where Adnan showed Jay the body. So this is like a fourth location now that we have Adnan showing

Jay the body. But this interview held a lot of surprises for me. I've never heard it talked about at all, maybe in passing, but I don't remember anybody referring to it. But Ali is Adnan's brother, and he basically said that he and Adnan didn't talk that much because they were two different people. And he didn't give Adnan advice about girls and things like that, but some of Adnan's friends had given him advice, and they'd encouraged him to get over Hay after their first breakup, but Adnan would not get over her because he felt he could still make it work. Ali said that Adnan had first started drinking alcohol on New Year's, 1998, but he had been smoking weed for a while before that.

And a note on this interview says, quote, Ali believes that the police forced Jay's hand because Jay was on probation. Jay is basically covering his ass. Ali said that Adnan is a very good liar. Adnan could lie about anything and you would not be able to tell he is not telling the truth. Adnan could be very convincing, end quote. So a lot to digest, and I know you're going to go back to Jay, but there was a couple of things I wanted to hit that might seem like maybe they're insignificant, but they could be something. I think it's something

you have to think about when you're trying to evaluate what happened here. First and foremost, we can say right off the bat, all these things that Jay's talking about, as far as guilt knowledge, as far as the way she was laying, as far as the windshield wiper, like you said, you said it right out. It could be because Adnan told him, or it could be because of personal experience like he was the one Everything that he said Adnan did maybe it was him. That's first thing first However, if that's the case when he says things like Adnan Let's let's take let's go from the angle that Adnan wasn't there and J's creating this narrative that Adnan implicated himself By telling him what he did right?

Law enforcement asks him. Hey, did he tell you how it happened? Did it happen the car? that Adnan implicated himself by telling him what he did, right? Law enforcement asks him, hey, did he tell you how it happened? Did it happen in the car? He's like, yep, absolutely. He even mentioned this windshield wiper. But then they ask him, did he tell you how he got into the car? Well, why would you say, oh, no, he didn't tell me that part. It's so insignificant.

Just be like, yeah, he told me he got in because he asked her for a ride. Just make it up just to give yourself more credibility. Why not just make that part of the narrative up to wouldn't you want your story? To have all the holes filled for law enforcement to point them in that direction Some of you may be like hey, you're looking too deep into that But I think that's something that you should consider if you're gonna create a story that you want the police to consume You're gonna give them details like the windshield wiper being kicked. But when they ask you something simple as why do you go in the car? How do you get in there? Who cares if you lie? You've been lying this whole interview. Just say, yeah,

he told me that he's asked her for a ride to go get his stuff for track practice at home. Simple as that. Obviously, Adnan's going to deny it. He's going to deny everything else, too. Something else here that I wanted to point out. So wait, are you saying that this makes Adnan look more suspicious, that Jay's not just making things up? Because it could also be Jay doesn't know how Adnan got in the car because Jay did it himself, right? Well, then what I'm saying is if Jay did it himself, but he's implicating Adnan by saying Adnan saw the wiper.

I see. Just say, yeah, when you're creating, again, you're lying to the law enforcement officers. You're going to give them all these pertinent details like the windshield wiper, but something so simple that you could just pull out of your ass. Oh yeah. He just told me he asked her for a ride. No, but he's, he's saying, nah, he didn't tell me that part, even though that would be simple and not really implicating anybody or making the story any more believable. He just doesn't, he didn't tell me that part. So it's more a sign that he's actually telling the truth. And then this just wasn't, you know, told to him. So he doesn't exactly some truth, but now on the other side of that coin, let me just point it out right now.

I absolutely think Jay's lying about a lot and you kind of hit on it in here. If we're to believe that what Jay's saying is mostly true as far as the details, that's fine. But I'm not of the mindset that Jay was just brought over there and he said, no, Jay might've said something. I know you mentioned it here that maybe, I don't know who said it, but more along the lines of Jay might've said, hey, I won't help you kill her, but I'll help you bury the body or whatever. There could have been more involvement. And then when Jay was spoken to by police, when he was approached by police, now he's a victim, right? Now he's a victim. He didn't go to the track, the dumpster at the mall to make sure it was there in case he had to implicate

Adnan. He went there to make sure that nobody else was going to find it because it was going to implicate him and Adnan. And that's why nobody did find anything because maybe he removed that stuff hid it somewhere else because she said he was away from the car for a while and when he came back he was all shooken up or maybe he even had stuff on him like in his sweatshirt or something that she just didn't see or he could have hopped in the dumpster and put the things at the very bottom of the dumpster where he's going in there making sure there's things covering it there's so many angles my point being i don't want anyone to sit here and think that we're eating what jay's saying and we're just loving it this is all there's got to be this is all good stuff this is all truth he's definitely in them he's trying to tell them an angle

that is going to make him look as innocent as possible but also knowing that he's he's he's screwed he's screwed because he was there and he's giving him all these details but if you think for a second he's going to tell them every single detail that's going to make him look bad right you're crazy they're crazy to think that the criminals just don't do that so and he is a criminal he was there he covered this up he didn't go to police with it afterwards that's why he was charged with a crime and pled guilty to it. That's where I'm there with that. And then finally, obviously, Ali's comments. You had said something in between that you were saying, like while we were recording, but not how dangerous it was, to be in the same household as Adnan and to not think that it would at least be understood what Leakin Park was and how dangerous that it was,

to think that Adnan had no clue that place existed, I'm almost thinking it might've been a stretch on Rabia's part or whoever's part who said it, because I don't know how he would not know that place existed. We might've even had a couple comments of people from that area that said, yeah, I mean, everyone, everyone knew where that, where that was. Well, somebody said like, oh, I've lived in Maryland all my life and I didn't know about it.

And I said, that's cool. Like fair. But did you live within like 15 minutes of it? Like, did you live within like three to five miles of it and not know? Maryland's a decent sized state. Yeah. Right. So I don't know. Rhode Island's the smallest state in the country and I don't know every park here in Rhode Island. I don't, you know, there's some, but you probably know the ones that are within like, you know, five miles of you. I know the ones that are in driving distance that I might take the kids to, or in the ones to stay away from and all that stuff. I know of them. Yes. So I,

there could be some truth to where he wasn't frequenting lincoln park all the time but to to to separate himself by saying i never even heard of that place that that's a stretch you don't have to be so dramatic you can just say like yeah i knew about it but i never went there and that's the truth but to just be like i had no clue it even existed is like so far and who said that that was on undisclosed right yeah well no. Well, no, it's everywhere. Rabia said it in her book. Rabia said it to Serial, like in the Serial podcast when she's interviewed, both her and Saad, her brother, were like, yeah, we didn't know. We were good kids. We didn't hang out at that bad park. It's like this huge push to make Adnan seem like an angel, which is problematic

because he's like a kid. He's a 17-year-old kid. We know from his brother, he's drinking, smoking weed, having sex, having relationships with girls that his parents don't want him to do any of that stuff. He's a typical kid and no kid at that age is an angel. And so to try to make Adnan look so perfect and so angelic and like a saint is almost the wrong thing to do because that's not relatable and it's less believable than he was just a kid. And sometimes he got into trouble and sometimes he did things his parents wouldn't want him to do. That doesn't mean that he killed his girlfriend. Right. Yeah.

No, he definitely wasn't an angel. None of us are. But even in the first episode, we acknowledge that he was showing up to late to class all the time and stuff. I mean, he wasn't not saying he was like this crimp hardened criminal walking around the school, but he wasn't he wasn't a choir boy either. He wasn't going from home to, you know, from school to home and getting right to the books. That's not what he that's not who he was. Exactly. And we wouldn't expect him to be that way. No, I wasn't that way.

So, I mean, nobody is that way. Nobody is that way. There's some. I mean, there's some. But very. But to paint him that way is like I agree with you. It's the wrong move. Yeah. But you know what? What I found interesting about what Ali said about this Taib figure is he said literally Taib asked Jay about the incident and Jay said he helped Adnan bury the body. Jay told Tayib that Adnan had called Jay the day before, asked for his help with the murder, et cetera, et cetera. How did Tayib know to ask Jay about the murder? It doesn't say that Jay told Tayib, it says that Tayib went to Jay and said, "'Hey, what's going on with this hay thing?

"'Like, what about this murder?' Which goes back to Jay saying to the police in this first interview, like, oh, this Adnan's friend Taib might know because he's like into that stuff. And I feel like Adnan would have, you know, maybe confided in him because he's like interested in like murder and stuff like that. So for Taib to go and ask Jay what's up with this murder and for Jay to be able to answer him and talk to him, it makes it seem like Taib already knew and how else would he know but from his friend Adnan. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, there's potentially the fact that he would ask Jay specifically to possibility. We don't have anything to substantiate it, but everything's game. I mean, everything's possible. And for Ali to say Adnan's a good liar, I don't think that's damning in itself because, you know, family members can. But I get the distinct impression like Ali was not approving of the way that Adnan was kind of like living his life. And he probably saw him lying to his parents and stuff and was like, I don't like this. Like, I'm not about this. He said, we're two different people. We don't talk a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. Brothers live in the same home. You don't talk a lot yeah yeah brothers live in the same home you don't talk a lot there's definitely some dissension there yeah so jay told the police that he would lead them to hayes car which he did on february 8 1999 at 2 45 a.m and as he had claimed the car was found in this parking lot area surrounded on all sides by row homes reportedly in the 300 block of edgewood drive hayes car was transported to police headquarters to be processed and by 5 30 in the 300 block of Edgewood Drive. Hay's car was transported to police headquarters to be processed, and by 5.30 in the morning, law enforcement officials were pulling a sleeping Adnan out of bed and placing him under arrest. And that is where we are going to pick up next time. It's already been a long enough episode, and I do want to address those who are continually asking every single episode, like, what about Adnan's alibi of being in the library? We are definitely going to

get there. Reportedly, someone saw Adnan in the library across the street from Woodlawn High School at 2.15 p.m. on January 13th. But it was only one person, Asia McLean. She claims that her boyfriend and her boyfriend's friend were with her but they don't remember Adnan being there but Asia did say that she she saw him there she was sure of it she wrote him a letter but then she retracted her statement and it's just it's just difficult you know because it's complicated like everything else in this case so we're definitely gonna to like talk about it but as of now with Jay's initial series of of events the 215 time isn't even that important and it doesn't really become important until he revises and refines his timeline with the police or with

the help of cell phone records and police evidence and i mean at least those you know are the allegations that we've talked about that the police helped him kind of refine his statement but i promise you we are going to get there I'm not avoiding it to make him look guilty. I'm not like, you know, not talking about it. We are going to talk about it. It's just not the right time yet. And it's complicated. No, but we are going to get there. And I think one question we should try to answer is, I know she might have retracted it, but how long did she see him there for? Right. She could have seen him at two 15. He might've been stepping out at that moment. He might've

been checking out a book or whatever, and he could have met up with Hay shortly after that. So did she see him at the library and he was there for another hour with her while she was there? Do we know that part yet? Yeah. Yeah, we do. Not necessarily an hour, but she, you know, she makes it, I'm not going to go into details right now because once again, those things change, but yeah, she saw him there, you know, for longer than five minutes. And let's say that she's right, right? If she saw him there for longer than five minutes, let's say she saw him there for 30, 45 minutes.

That would be very important because I've said from the beginning that I think between two and three is when this incident occurred. So if he, just like Don, Adnan can't be in two places at once. We're not trying to discredit it, but only having one person see him at the library. And not only that, just not having other people see him during that duration, whether it's coming from the library to the library, whatever it may be, it weakens it a little bit. But overall, we're definitely going to cover it. What would you say? I know you hate when I do this to you. This is now going to be, this is part four. I know you're already shaking your head. What do you, what's your ballpark thing? Do you think in two more parts,

three more parts? I have no idea. No idea. That's your answer every time. I don't even know why I ask. So we got, we have more parts to go, multiple parts left. So there's a lot to cover. Are you going to cover the trial in this as well? Yeah, I'm going to talk a little bit about the first trial because then you have this like interference of his own attorney, Christina Gutierrez, who, you know, becomes problematic and it kind of is responsible allegedly for Asia McLean's statement of seeing Adnan and giving him an alibi not being included in that first trial. So we are going to have to talk about that because Christina Gutierrez is a person that a lot of people think, you know, kind of sabotaged Anon. But once again, like going on your train of thought, it's like we get we keep adding all these people that are part of this grand conspiracy to like send this kid to prison. And I just don't

see why. I think it's more likely that you have people that just are inept or aren't really good at their jobs or maybe have something else going on. I do know that I think she was struggling from health issues because she would pass away shortly after. So it could have been that she was just distracted by health issues. Every time we go down a new path, it's like another person that's involved in this like grand conspiracy plan to to put Adnan into prison for something that they they all knew he didn't do. Right. That's it's getting bigger and bigger. This web of like, you know, enablers. And I don think there might be truth to the idea that as they were going forward and as Jay Wilds was becoming more inconsistent, law enforcement prosecutors probably came to him and said, dude, you keep changing your statement. What's the truth? You got to tell us the truth and stick to that story because in the first version, you told us this.

In the second version, you told us this. What is it? I've had to do that. I've had to do that where it's like you have someone who is a witness or someone who is a informant and they're basically a snitch. And it's like you keep telling us different versions. What's the actual version? And you got whatever the version is, you got to stick to it. So that absolutely can be seen as coaching or telling them what to say when in reality, they're just trying to get

them to stick to one story. So there could be a medium there where maybe law enforcement went over the line and was reminding, and I got air quotes up here for audio, reminding him of certain things that he had said before that he wasn't remembering now, you shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be doing that. So that's wrong. Ethically, it's definitely wrong. Prosecutors as well, knowing how important Jay is going to be to this case, as far as what he's putting forward, he is their key witness. He's really all they have that's implicating Adnan. They need him to be top tier and he's not. So could they be coaching him as well and more than they should be? Absolutely. As far as Jay, to kind of put a bow on this one,

I don't think any of us are leaving this episode thinking Jay is innocent and he's being framed for something he didn't do. He absolutely was there, at least for part of what happened to Hay. So as we said earlier in the episode, you have a situation here where it's Jay alone. He did it all by himself.

It's Jay with a co-conspirator, an accomplice, or it's what Jay's saying, which it was Jay and Adnan. If it was just Jay though, just my thoughts right now, these are questions, I don't have the answers. I wrote this down very early in the episode and it's two words. How? Why? Because for me, Jay would have had Adnan's vehicle. So he would have had to go, he would have to driven over to the school, found a way to intercept Hay while she's still at the school and be there at a time where he can hide Adnan's vehicle, have a reason to follow her or to get in her vehicle. And that's, that's the, then it leads me to the why, which is okay. I know we're hearing that he may have done this to frame Adnan because of jealousy with Stephanie. I don't think that's a strong enough.

Why? I think it would have to be more than that. It would not only have to be jealousy about their relationship, but a deep resentment for Adnan to want to do this and based on their relationship i'm not seeing that seems like they were at minimum acquaintances if not friends to a lesser degree so those are my two big questions as far as jay not only killing hay on his own but then deciding to implicate edna because what he could have done is kill Hay, not implicate Adnan at all, not say anything to Stephanie, just do what he did, leave her body out there and let the world, let the city kind of come to their own conclusions at what happened.

He took this proactive approach to make sure that people knew Adnan had killed her, specifically Stephanie. So if he, if, if this is not the truth, he really risked a lot to implicate Adnan. And that would have to be a really deep hatred for him to do that, I would think. So how and why, when it comes to Jay? If Jay did it alone, how did he pull it off in that hour time frame and why? That's what I'm really leaving tonight asking myself so the last two times derek said stephanie he meant jen but i get it because i made that mistake oh jesus thank you

right yeah i made that mistake several times when i was writing the script um yeah i agree with you the the motive needs to be a little bit stronger because it's just not personal enough you know it's not personal enough to take somebody unless unless you're an absolute psychopath, and there's nobody in his life that said he was. So unless you're an absolute psychopath, you have no feelings for anybody, I could see you taking somebody and using them as a pawn and taking their life to use them as a pawn to some grand scheme. But there's just not strong enough motive to hurt this girl who had done nothing to him unless she did do something to him. And we just have no idea about that. But nobody said that Jay and Hay were close or hung out or hung out without Adnan or without Stephanie. So it doesn't really make sense. I don't think anybody could have done it alone because you've got you've had to have two vehicles involved. You if you especially if you're leaving her car somewhere, how are you getting back from that area? You know, like, are you walking?

Are you hitching a ride? Do you have somebody picking you up? Are you taking public transportation? What's going on? Yeah, no, it's it. There's a lot there. And as far as Adnan in this case and his possible guilt, you have a situation where we covered it for three parts. That's why we do the foundation where we have numerous people saying, hey, would constantly give him a ride home, even sometimes ask her to give me a ride home and have her bring me back uh to think that that happened to think that in this day he said hey can i get a ride home and she said yeah no problem and that everything jay had laid out that we talked about tonight is is possibly true is it completely just like impossible to

believe that he could have asked hay for a ride with the intentions on killing her? I don't think it's that hard to believe. I think it's very possible. Let's say she told him, I can't. I have something to do. But she's leaving school and she sees Adnan walking across the street to the library because the Woodlawn Public Library is not associated with Woodlawn High School. It's like across the street from the school. So you'd have to like leave the building of the school

and walk across. Let's say she walks him. She sees him walking across the library and she feels bad and she pulls over. She's like, you know what? I can give you a ride. Just hop in. Like, where do you need to go?

You need to go home. And now he's in her car. We don't know what happened, but I know that nobody really saw Adnan or can say for sure that they saw Adnan after that 2-15 period when the school when the final bell rang besides Asia McClain, who claims she saw him in the library. But once again, that's, you know, it could have been a different day. It could have been a different time. It could have been anything. And we can't use it as a rock solid alibi without surveillance to back it up or another witness to support it. We just can't. Yeah. No, I'm looking forward to keep going with it. Your strongest witness is also your

weakest witness in a lot of ways. So we'll just keep going with it. We'll see where it goes. It annoys me because I want him to be innocent. Of course I do. Adnan, he was a young kid. He had his whole life ahead of him. He spent all this time in prison. And if he was a young kid he had his whole life ahead of him he spent all this time in prison and if he was in there without having done anything it's like the it's a huge tragedy but there's so many things that just like prevent me from going all-in and being like yeah I could totally see how this is not only messed up by the investigation but how he had nothing to do with this I can't say that I can say it's messed up with the, but I can't say he had nothing to do with it because there's too many things that are like suspicious. The whole like timeline. And why did you give Jay your car

when you had two free periods and you could have brought him to get a present for Stephanie? Did Jay ever even get a present for Stephanie? As far as I know, he didn't. So what's this whole present for Stephanie like, you know, timeline thing happening when you could have just brought him there and kept your car and your brand new cell phone and not had to worry about tracking somebody down who's got all your stuff and having him pick you up. I wonder how many times he's done that in the past. Just giving his car to random people, including his friend slash drug dealer. You just say, take my car. Yeah, I don't think he made a habit of it because it looks like this car was like a shared family car.

You know, like it wasn't his car. His parents were like, yeah, we don't go anywhere during the day. So we let him use it. But it's not like his car. He's given his car out to random people for the day. I don't know. But, yeah, there's just too many things that prevent me from like going all in and saying like 100 percent innocent. No, I mean, listen, if Adnan's innocent, which it's very very well possible

He is the most unluckiest guy I've ever met and on top of that for a guy who by people who knew him or knew him back then and know him Now for a guy that was so loved by everyone It seems like a lot of people had an axe to grind with him if this is one big conspiracy so it just it's it's it's it's a really complex case and I can absolutely see why so many people are invested in it because you do have things here that just don't make sense and they might never. But as we continue with this, I think we're starting to hone in on something where we know we got one piece of the puzzle. We know Jay was involved in one way, shape or form. We just got

to try to connect the dots on the rest of it. Yeah. And that's what we'll do. That's what we keep doing. Cool. All right. Well, this is, this is probably going to be our longest episode we've ever done. We might've broken a record tonight. I actually am going to go out on a limb and say, it's definitely going to be, it's going to be close to three hours with ads. So if you guys saw this one, you guys say you love long episodes. Well, here you go. We will be back next week. Everyone, we're actually recording this on Sunday.

So tomorrow, for those of you who celebrate it, tomorrow's Halloween. We hope you have a great time. Be safe. Stay in well-lit areas, even though you won't be seeing this till after Halloween. I'm still going to say it. Hope you're all safe. Hope you got some good candy. Checked it all before you gave to your kids. So again we will see you stay safe out there until next week bye