Crime Weekly - S2 Ep99: Hae Min Lee & Adnan Syed: Cars and Calls (Part 5)

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

It was an unseasonably warm January afternoon in Baltimore County, Maryland when 18-year-old Woodlawn High School senior Hae Min Lee left school in her gray 1998 Nissan Sentra and headed out to pick up her six-year-old cousin from kindergarten before going to her job at the local LensCrafters. But sometime after leaving Woodlawn High School and before picking up her little cousin, Hae Min Lee vanished into thin air. Less than a month later, maintenance worker Alonzo Sellers was driving back to his job at Coppin State College and drinking a beer when he realized he had to use the bathroom, and it couldn’t wait. Mr. Sellers pulled over on the side of the road and walked deep into the woods to relieve himself, at which point he made a gruesome discovery. According to his later testimony, Mr. Sellers said quote, “when I looked down I seen something that looked like hair, something that was covered by dirt. And I looked real good again, and that’s when I seen what looked like a foot” end quote. Alonzo Sellers had stumbled upon the body of Hae Min Lee, she had been strangled to death by the bare hands of her attacker, and within a few weeks, the police would make an arrest for her murder. But, the suspect was a person that no one would have suspected capable of such a horrific crime, the ex-boyfriend of Hae, a sweet and smart 17-year-old named Adnan Syed. But, stay with us, because, it’s complicated… Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod Ads: Right now, get twenty percent off your Bare Necessities order when you go to BARE NECESSITIES dot com and use code crimeweekly20. That’s code crimeweekly20 at BARE NECESSITIES dot com to get twenty percent off. BARE NECESSITIES dot com, code crimeweekly20. Some exclusions apply. Right now, BÉIS (base) is offering our listeners 15% off your first purchase by visiting BEISTRAVEL.com/CRIMEWEEKLY. Go to BEISTRAVEL.com/CRIMEWEEKLY for 15% off your first purchase. That’s B-E-I-S-TRAVEL dot com slash CRIMEWEEKLY  Helix is offering up to 200 dollars off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners! Go to Helix Sleep dot com slash crimeweekly. With Helix, better sleep starts now. You deserve one less thing to worry about. Let Daily Harvest take care of the fruits + veggies for you. ! Go to DAILY HARVEST dot com slash crimeweekly to get up to forty dollars off your first box! That’s DAILY HARVEST dot com slash crimeweekly for up to forty dollars off your first box! DAILY HARVEST dot com slash crimeweekly.

Tired of trying diet after diet without results? Mochi Health offers a long-term weight loss solution personalized to your needs. Our board-certified obesity doctors and registered dietitians provide expert guidance to help you succeed. Eligible patients can access custom-formulated GLP-1 medication at an affordable set price delivered monthly. Take our free quiz at joinmochi.com and use code audio 40 for $40 off your first month. That's joinmochi.com. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are diving into part five of the Heyman Lee and Adnan Syed series. I know it's long and there's still so much to talk about. It's crazy how there's still so much to talk about and so much to go over. We have an episode tonight that is jam-packed full of details

and discussions to be had and really, you know, things that need to be like dug into. And I can't wait to get your guys' opinion in the comment section if you're watching on YouTube, because this really is something that needs to be discussed with a hive mind. So I'm glad we have you guys to talk about it because there's so many things that just have occurred to me since I've been diving back into this case. And I'm seeing it in a much different way than I ever have. And I'll leave it at that for now. But before we dive in, do you want to get anything off your chest to talk about anything? No, I want to dive into the case too i'll just say i want to bring up criminal coffee when you're listening to this episode or you're watching it

on youtube uh stephanie and i are currently in utah at the time of this this video or audio being released uh we're going out to utah to meet up with the people over at intermountain forensics to talk about the preble county penny case or preble penny case and uh we're to get to kind of see the behind the scenes in the lab at what they do, how they extract the DNA from her bones, all this, all that stuff. That's very important to us. And if you want to be part of it, we've already had a lot of people buy coffee. Your funds were directly contributing to the testing that we're able to do. We were able to donate $5,000 to Intermountain Forensics for this testing.

But we want this to be the first of many. So if you're interested in some good coffee and giving back to a really good cause like fighting crime, head on over to criminalcoffeeco.com. Check us out. We got three different blends you can check out or one blend, two roasts, and they're all very good, but we're biased. There's also the true crime universe you can check out as well see the different characters see their adventures stephanie writes those stories and then finally just a little it's a teaser but it's coming we just approved it all merchandise a lot of you've been asking about it criminal coffee merch is coming we have literally seen all the

samples all the designs i was actually wearing one of the sweatshirts, just a blank to make sure we really liked the material. Stephanie has stuff coming to her house as well. So there's a lot going on with criminal coffee. We're super excited about it. We're going to be doing some stuff on our social. So that's the other thing. Make sure you're following our personal socials, but also make sure you're following criminal coffee, which is at drink criminal coffee on Instagram and,. And it's drink criminal on Twitter. Yes. Amazing. And listen, there's some weird weather patterns happening in the United States right now. A lot of people probably don't know this because I keep it hidden. I'm embarrassed, but I'm kind of a nerd and I like weather. And in my spare time, I listen to like

YouTube channels who talk about weather like every day and I told Derek like it's going to be snowing in Utah so make sure you bring like a boot like coat and boots and he kind of laughed at me and I feel like he's not going to be prepared but you know who's going to be prepared with her puffy jacket and snow boots me well we're going to be inside most of the time hopefully hopefully. And our airport is like 20 minutes from the lab and our hotels right in between that. So I'm going to be in the Uber going from place to place and I'm going to try to avoid the snow. But in fairness to you, if I find myself in a position where I'm up to my knees in snow, I promise to take a photo and post it to Instagram

of me freezing my ass off because you told me to wear a jacket and boots and I chose not to. Are you really going to choose not to? No, I'm going to bring a jacket. We're going to Utah. But, you know, I'm not going to like I'm not preparing for a blizzard, but I just totally jinxed myself. So there we are. There's going to be a blizzard, man. You should see these crazy weather things that are happening right now.

It is so cool. Anyways, let's dive into the episode. Before I just start talking to you about hot spells and cold air and hurricanes that are happening in Florida again, sorry about that, guys. It sucks. Let's dive into episode five of the Heyman Lee and Adnan Syed series. Last week, if you were here, I'm sure you were here because you probably wouldn't be here today if you weren't here last week, but we talked about Jay Wilds and his first version of events, the things that he said happened on the day and night of January 13th, 1999, when Hayman Lee went missing. So Jay gave this initial statement to police on February 28th, 1999. And after he gave that statement, he led law enforcement to the location of Hay's car. Her 1998 silver Nissan Sentra was parked in a grassy lot behind a series of row houses in Baltimore's Allendale area, specifically a location behind 300 Edgewood

Street. Now, the vehicle was not processed at the scene. It was towed to the Baltimore Police Department headquarters downtown, and on that same day, they began to lift fingerprints and collect physical evidence from the vehicle. There's a lot of stuff to talk about with Hay's car, so let's, you know, get going, starting down the list. And it's actually really sad. I found myself kind of feeling a little like melancholy when I was reading this inventory list of what they found in her car because it really reminds you that Hay was just like a typical teenage girl, a girl who kept way too many things in her car, who probably didn't clean her car or organize it enough because it kind of was a mess. But you know what? So was my car when I was 17, 18, 19,

and 20. And there's just stuff in there that reminds you she had like hobbies and passions and a future too. Like she was planning things for the future. So Hayes field hockey and lacrosse sticks, they were found in her car. There was also a blue book bag, a dark blue book bag. And this book bag had like a leather brown bottom. That was found in her car as well in the back seat. Inside the book bag, they found a copy of Shakespeare's Othello. They also found proofs of Hayes' senior pictures along with a portrait order form. They found a 1998-1999 Woodlawn High School agenda book with Hay's name on the information page and Don's name written all over the inside front cover. Also inside the agenda was a picture of

Hay in the arms of a young man dressed in a military uniform. And apparently Hay had signed this picture and addressed it to someone named Jake, who the police thought must have been an ex-boyfriend because his name was also found on the date April 4th in the calendar portion of Hay's agenda. And so I was looking at the inventory sheet and they said something like, oh, this must have been an ex-boyfriend and April 4th would have been their one year anniversary. But then I found a reference to Jake in a memo written by a member of Adnan's defense team. And Adnan told his lawyers that Jake was not Hay's ex-boyfriend. He was a friend of Hay's who'd attended college in Atlanta and who had died in the summer of 1998. And according to Adnan, Hay had described Jake as the only person who really knew her, and so Adnan and some of Hay's friends were surprised when she didn't tell them about Jake's death until two weeks after he had passed away. They also recovered a blue and white and green striped t-shirt on the front left seat with what looked like blood on it.

Now, this blood was later confirmed to be human blood, and they also found two hairs on the shirt. DNA testing revealed the blood matched Heyman Lee, and the hairs on the shirt were not a match for Adnan Syed or Jay Wilds. There was an empty juice carton in the backseat and some roses and baby breath wrapped in plastic along with a packet of flower food. There was also an intro to psychology textbook, the lid to a travel mug, a receipt for gas from an Exxon Mobil from January 5th, a floppy disk marked school stuff, and one pair of black heeled dress shoes, women's size seven. Now these are the shoes that everybody sort of assumed hay had been wearing the day of her death these are the shoes where those four dna profiles were found none of

which matched ednan or jay wilds and um and and yeah these are the shoes they assume she was wearing that day because her grandmother saw her leave the house wearing black shoes i've always wondered why they assumed that they wore the shoes she was wearing that day, but it does seem that that's the general consensus. They also found a pair of black socks, a size 7 pinstriped skirt that wouldn't cover anyone's butt, at least that was according to the police inventory report they found a pair of nike cleats sized five and a half some stuffed animals a happy birthday crown the note to don talking about the randallston match and the interview that she had at school we discussed this note

pretty early on in this series i would say maybe episode two they also found the bottom two-thirds of a paycheck from royal metro corporation mobile medical Transport made out to Adnan Syed. The pay period of the check was 10-24-98 to 11-6-98 and it was dated 11-13-98. In the glove box, they recovered the vehicle registration, a map of the Baltimore Zoo, an empty gift box, a heart charm with the price tag still attached, a UBMC undergrad admissions card, and some papers and mail from family members such as her brother and uncle. So it wasn't from them. It was like for them. There was a credit card application, like her uncle's name, stuff like that. Probably she just grabbed it out of the mailbox, put it in her car and was

going to bring it in later. And maybe she forgot or I don't know. Also in the car, the police found one of those big map books for driving directions, the kind that people would use before everyone had a cell phone with GPS. They dusted the car for fingerprints. And, you know, basically they found they found a bunch of fingerprints. They found Adnan's fingerprints on a bunch of things. They didn't find Jay Wilde's fingerprints on anything. So in the trunk, there was a bunch of paper and envelopes. And one of those envelopes postmarked October 3rd, 1998. This had Adnan's fingerprints on it, as did the card inside the envelope. His fingerprints were also found on the nationwide insurance card in the glove box and on floral paper. And this floral paper had bits of stems and leaves inside of it

as well. So when they say floral paper, it's like paper that goes around flowers. So typically the flowers will have like roses and baby breath like was kind of found in her car and then they'll be surrounded with a paper that's known as floral paper and then like a plastic cellophane around that. Adnan's palm print was found on the back cover of that big map book and two pages were ripped out of that map book and it ended up that those two pages happened to be showing the location of leakin park and the prosecution really pointed this out a lot that they said you know listen adnan's palm print is on the back of this map book two pages were ripped out and these these two pages were showing you know leakin park where hayes body uh was found so this must mean that he did this, that he ripped these papers out. And a lot of people have put some heavy stock into this. They think it's suspicious,

but to be fair, I personally don't. Not because his fingerprints weren't on those specific pages, because allegedly, you know, Jay said he was wearing gloves, but because the torn out map pages, they show far more than leek and park they also showed the whole area around where hay lived so to me it's more likely that she ripped those pages out herself because she was referring to them far more than the other pages in the map book and she didn't want to keep flipping through the book to find them so that's what it seems like to me more than anything i'm not sure why he would rip those pages out and you know jay didn't say at any point that adnan was referring to a map in

order to get to leakin park it kind of made it seem like in all of jay's versions of events that adnan was like driving around randomly looking for a place to leave hayes car and looking for a place to bury hay's body. So I just don't think it's as significant as the prosecution made it seem. Yeah, I agree. And I think for the most part, anything found in that vehicle that comes back to Adnan, you document it, you make note of it, but you can't hang your hat on it because he's been in that vehicle multiple times. He could have a reasonable explanation as to why he was touching

that book why he was touching other things the only thing that i've heard so far as far as inventory from the vehicle that's of interest to me is the two hairs that were found but did not match adnan or jay wilds i'm assuming they didn't match hayman lee either you didn't mention that but i'm assuming they didn't match her as well they don't say i'm sure they didn't match her um i would i'd like to think yeah but even but even that even them not matching unless the hairs came back to someone who had no explanation as to why their their hair fibers would have been found in that vehicle um it kind of falls in the same vein as as as adnan if they if If Jay or anybody, Stephanie, whoever the hairs belong to, if they're from someone who had been in that car in the past, it's really

difficult to say when those hairs got there. And I also wonder with the hairs, I'm not an expert in this, but with hairs, you usually need some form of flesh from the scalp to be attached to it in order to actually get a full DNA profile from it. It's not technically from the hair itself. It's from the skin attached to it. But I do know with the advances in DNA technology, they now have what's referred to as mitochondrial DNA testing where they can extract DNA from the hair fibers. So back in the day, they couldn't when this was first done.

So I wonder if that has been resubmitted for testing to use the hair fibers. So back in the day, they couldn't when this was first done. So I wonder if that has been resubmitted for testing to use the hair fibers themselves if the flesh had not been attached to it. But those are questions I think only the internal offices would have at this point if that's been done in recent years. Yeah, we went pretty deep into the whole like hair DNA thing during the Kaylee Anthony case, if you remember. And in that situation, in that case, they had compared banding on the hair as well. You know, there's certain banding that happens on hair that you can see certain things. Has this hair been treated, dyed, et cetera, stuff like that. So there's ways that they can sort of narrow it down. You know, if this hair has been bleached and Adnan does not have bleached hair, it's not his hair. So

they can sort of eliminate people based on that. But yeah, I think especially in 1999, those hairs were pretty like pointless for them. Yeah. So that was the only thing of interest in there that could be something as far as the blood that could be sign of struggle, but it could also be just one of another occasions where, hey, cut herself in the car or cut herself at work or at school, you know, during training, lacrosse practice, whatever. So I would expect a lot more blood if it was this crazy assault that took place in the vehicle. And from what I've read about when they found her body, it doesn't sound like she was beaten and would have serious injury. She didn't have serious injury. So I think this-

She did have blunt force trauma to her head, but yeah. No cuts. No, I don't think it, I don't think the blood even came from any attack that happened in the car. In fact, if I was to theorize, there was also a box of sanitary pads found in the car. She fact, if I was to theorize, there was also a box of sanitary pads found in the car. She may have had her period and they did like fingerprint that box.

So it did seem like maybe that box was newer. They said it was pretty much full, but it was kind of like in a place where she was reaching for it easily. So she may have had her period, you know, she may have gotten her period unexpectedly and these things happen. So that could be it. One more thing before we move on about the shoes. If it was confirmed that those were in fact the shoes that she was wearing, whether it was through other students or whatever, whatever the case may be, let's just take it for right now that those were the shoes. They were able to determine those were the shoes she was wearing on the day of her incident i do think that could be significant because it does give a little

bit more credence to the idea that those that the assault did at some point start in the vehicle because the shoes maybe during the struggle get kicked off thrown off whatever it might be and the offender left the shoes behind even though though they removed Hay from the vehicle. So it would be unlikely that if they had taken Hay's body out to Leakin Park, the burial site, they wouldn't remove her shoes and put them back in the vehicle. They just were never on her body when they brought her in there. So it could be something where if she had been taken to a secondary location, someone's apartment, someone's house, I guess they could have taken the shoes out of there. So it wasn't linked back to them and threw them in the back of the car. But I also think that it's it'd be more it'd be more convincing to me that there might have been something that had taken place in the vehicle.

And that's how the shoes came off in the first place. Yeah, and remember, Jay had told the police during his first interview that Hay did not have shoes on when he saw her in the trunk at first. And when they asked like, where were her shoes? He said that Adnan had left them in the car. So he was right on that point. Yeah, a lot of guilt knowledge. We can definitely dive into that more tonight.

I'm sure we're going to, but just taking out Jay's statement, just looking at the evidence that's presented to us in the vehicle, if she had gotten out of the vehicle, was walking around with someone in Lincoln Park or had been transferred somewhere else, you would expect those shoes to probably never be found again. Because I think you had said in last episode or maybe it was one of the earlier episodes things like her pager were never recovered correct so pager was never found her car keys were never found correct yeah so there's items that the offender made sure were not with her body or in the vehicle because they could be incriminating it the keys maybe maybe just because they were holding them the pager definitely, I almost tweeted the other day, man, how much I would pay to have Hayes' pager even now, because they could probably get that thing started back up and see the call log,

the call history on it. One of the pages might've came in that day. But the shoes, in the same kind of mentality, if the offender took the time to get rid of the pager in a different location so it wouldn't be found with her body or with their vehicle, you would think they would do that with the shoes as well if they were concerned about DNA, whatever it might be. So again, speculative, but it seems to me like the most reasonable explanation would be that for some reason the shoes came off in the vehicle while she was there as well. It just blows my mind that in these early days, the police decided like, yeah, we should definitely not get a record of Hayes Pager.

I don't think you could. Oh, I feel like you definitely could. Of course you could because they have to like charge you somehow, right? I was trying to think of that because I had a pager just like you. And I was trying to think if it was like a mobile service where it had like a call history of your pages, you might be right. You might be right. Cause I, I sometimes make the mistake on here and you guys are quick to call me out where my mentality is today's technology. I did it with Lacey Peterson, right? Like certain things in

certain ways we do things now that weren't done then. And maybe that was done. I don't know. I mean, you would think that would have came out in court. Maybe there was nothing significant in that call log, but that's something that you say where I would be absolutely shocked and embarrassed if you told me definitively that they were able to get her call record based on the service she had, whatever it might be, and they didn't, they did all these other things, but they wouldn't go get the call records for her pager. I know that you're saying there's no evidence of it, but if we knew for a fact that hadn't been done, I would probably crawl under my desk right now. Well, listen, I'm looking it up and some people are like, hey, no, there is no way to get pager records. It's a monthly fee. You know, they don't charge like per pager number. But then somebody else said that they found an instance in 20 or 2002, not 20, 2002, where the police subpoenaed pager records but this was like one of those skytel two-way pagers

so skytel kept records of messages because they were more like texts so maybe there wasn't a way to get pager numbers or like to get the records and i'm not sure you know what maybe the person knew that you know what i mean or maybe they didn't know that and that's why they took the pager right like maybe they thought shit they're going to be able to track this somehow if they have the pager itself they can use the serial code or whatever so if i had to guess that pager is in a million pieces in a body of water or buried in the wood somewhere right now that pager is never going to be found. It's long gone because it could indicate a window where if there's another person involved. If it's not Adnan, if it's not Jay, or if it is Jay, where he might have paged Tay.

Or Adnan might have paged Tay at 1 o'clock. It could incriminate multiple people significantly. So yeah, that pager is never going to be found again. It's unfortunately, if we do find it, it's going to be small fragments of it. And here's something else. So the police definitely did subpoena the subscriber information for Jen Pusateri's pager. They did this on February 27th. So I don't know why they would have done that with her pager if they didn't feel they could get some useful information from it. And I found another article that talks about privacy laws prohibit paging services from turning over data to police voluntarily.

But law enforcement, you know, I guess in years after 1999 started subpoenaing pager records very heavily. So I'm not sure why they would do that if there wasn't useful information to get. I don't know. Either way, it doesn't look like they did it for her pager because the question is why, why? Yeah. Maybe they didn't know she had one. I don't know. Yeah, no, it makes total sense. I'm going to go with it probably wasn't available for that particular service, whatever she was using, because I think the web sleuths out there would be putting that all over the internet, whether it's going to favor Adnan or be again, it would be out there for our consumption. Before we continue, we're getting to that point, we're about 25 minutes in. Let's take our first break. We'll be right back. All right, so we're back. Now let's

touch on two items in Hay's car that were of interest to me. So there was that heart pendant that they found with the price tag still on it. And to me, that means it was fairly new. And this had probably been given to Hay as a present, which would also explain the empty gift box also found in the car in the glove compartment. Or maybe that heart pendant was meant for someone else. Maybe it was a gift to Stephanie McPherson from her boyfriend, Jay. In one of his many interviews, I believe it was the second interview, which we're going to talk about today, Jay mentioned that he had bought a birthday present for Stephanie.

He said he had purchased her a bracelet. He actually said a charm bracelet. And this is a little heart charm that they're finding in Hay's car. So let's go over the possibilities. Personally, I find it odd that flowers would be in the car if they hadn't been purchased by Hay or given to Hay that same day, right? Otherwise, like I feel like the flowers would be dead because of lack of water and it was cold. This was January.

So who would put flowers that somebody gave them in the car and then leave them there and let them die? And the police don't describe the state of the flowers, but they do say they're roses and there's baby breath. So obviously these flowers were intact enough for the police to recognize what they were. These were fairly new flowers. That's what I'm taking from it. That's possible. I'll also say as far as the charm would be pretty quick and easy to confirm whether or not Jay, who said that he bought a charm for Stephanie.

No, he said he bought a charm bracelet, but you think it would be pretty easy to verify this, right? Just ask Stephanie, did he ever give it to you? Don't ask me, right? Don't ask me if the police ever looked into the purchase or credit card history of Hay, Adnan, or Jay to see if any of them had purchased flowers or a heart charm, right? Because if they did that, if they looked into these records, or if they asked Stephanie about the bracelet, or if they did any of this, I could find no record of it, which is incredibly problematic to me, because you've got these two things that I think go together, you've got this pendant, this like or this little heart charm in Hayes car that sells a price tag on it. You've got flowers in the backseat that I think look pretty new.

So it looks like somebody is giving her gifts of some kind. And then you have Jay just I believe it was a week after they went through her car telling them in his second interview, like, yeah, I bought a bracelet for my girlfriend, Stephanie, a charm bracelet. And they're not going to put two and two together or ask. So here's what I'm thinking. If Jay's responsible for Hay's death, maybe he used the excuse of shopping for a present for Stephanie to bring Hay to him. Maybe he said he needed help picking something out or he told Hay he just wanted to show her what he'd gotten for Stephanie to get Hay's green light on the present. Because remember, Hay and Stephanie were good friends. But if that's the case, why would he leave all of those things in the car, especially if he purchased them and they would track back to him? Yeah, he took the pager out.

He took the keys out, but doesn't take the items that actually belong to him that's uh you know that's tough i i'm i'm putting my tongue on the table here so to speak because i could get it chopped off but i i have to say it based on some of the things the police did as far as fingerprinting and some of the extent they went to to kind of check things out i said it last episode i i can't say it enough some of the things like. I said it last episode. I can't say it enough. Some of the things like confirming purchases, things like that, especially items found in the vehicle. It's not even like an advanced investigative tactic. It's like, hey, we have these items in the car. We have to account for all of them. It's like anybody could do it. A person who watches this podcast would know like, hey, every item in here is a clue. Let's kind of like find

all those out. So I feel I'm going to say it. I'm going to put my career on the line here and say, regardless of how horrible this investigation was conducted, things like this were done. And my guess would be they weren't significant, which is why they weren't brought up by the defense and also why they weren't brought up by the defense and also why they weren't brought up by the prosecution. It was probably confirmed that, hey, purchase these items. Because if there was something there that suggested Jay was the sole offender of this by this, because what you're saying is fascinating. Like, hey, he said he bought this piece of jewelry. There was a jewelry piece found in the car with the box. If I'm the defense, if they didn't figure out who this belonged to definitively, I'm

bringing that up. That's reasonable doubt to me because it sounds very compelling what you're saying. Now, there might be people listening or watching this right now going, Derek, they never did. I was there. I saw it. I saw the full report. But I would think the reason this was never brought up by anybody else, defense or prosecution, was because it was probably a nothing burger. Basically, it just came back to whether it was her buying it for herself or cousin, whoever it might have been, and that's why it never became an item of interest.

Yeah, I disagree with you. you so let me ask you a question do you think pulling or like testing items in the car for dna would be one of those like basic building block things that you're saying the police would normally do in an investigation for instance those black shoes they were allegedly the shoes she was wearing on the day she was kidnapped and murdered do you think the police would have in their initial investigation tested the shoes for dna because you know they didn't. They didn't do that until just now. So if they're passing up testing the shoes she was wearing, possibly as she was being murdered for DNA, do you think they're really tracking down like a heart pendant to see if she bought it? So it's going to sound like an excuse machine, but I got to say it. I

can tell you that there's been investigations where there's multiple items that you need to test for DNA. And even right now, I hate the fact that this is true, but when there's multiple items and it's three, four, seven, $10,000 per item to test it. Sometimes investigators are faced with the difficult choice of only submitting certain items. I had it happen to me numerous times and I hate it, which is part of the reason we're doing criminal coffee, because some of these pieces of these cases are not solved because the funding is just not there. So I'm not saying that I'm happy about it. But they were the shoes she was wearing on the day she was murdered, potentially wearing when she was murdered.

If that's not an important piece of evidence to test for DNA, then what actually would be? Well, they tested the hairs. They tested the blood. I don't know what else they tested. They probably tested, they probably did a lot of trace. They probably submitted her, her skirt. I think they did. They submitted her shirt because those were items where they might've said, Hey, listen, the shoes we're not sure about. They were in the car. Maybe the offender touched it. Maybe she

kicked them off before anything happened, but we know, or we believe that she was dead before she was brought out to the burial site. So the offender had to have had some type of contact with her where more than likely if, if he or she were to have any contact with our, with our victim, it would have been during the transportation of her body. So let's send the shirt. Let's send the skirt. Let's send her bra. Let's send the shirt. Let's send the skirt. Let's send her bra. Let's send her underwear. Let's send her socks. Let's send those items.

Let's send the hairs. Let's send the blood. Let's hold off on the shoes for now. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just being devil's advocate and I'm throwing another scenario out there in a perfect world. You send every single item from the tissue paper for the flowers to the bracelet, to the gift box, to the map, the book map, to any item that can be removed from that vehicle and maybe swabs of the vehicle itself, the dashboard, the steering wheel, anything, just submit it all. But I can tell you that the state labs are so behind on these cases where they might not get to it for years. And if you go privately, it's tens of thousands of dollars. I think I've said it before. There was a case I was

working where we had an item. I don't think I can say the item because it wasn't publicly released, but it was one item and I wanted to get it privately tested was, it had a couple of hairs on it. And it was, there was like maybe seven hairs and it was $3,000 per hair. So because of our budget with the network, we only sent three hairs and I was pissed because I wanted to send all seven, but we only were willing to spend the 12 grand or the nine grand for three hairs. So I was like, how do I choose what hairs to pick? Like they all look the same to me. What if I pick the three hairs that mean nothing? And the other hair that solves the case is still sitting in the envelope. I was furious, but that, that is an element to it. I'm not saying that's

what happened here, but it is a reality of investigative work where sometimes police departments have to choose based on the financial resources available. Okay. I'm with you. I understand. I'm not saying you agree with it. I don't. No, I don't. I'm not saying you agree with it, but that's a reality of what happens behind closed doors. Oh, I agree that that happens behind closed doors, and it's unfortunate.

We know that. I don't think that's what happened here in this case. I don't think they tracked it down, that locket. There was a ton of stuff in her car that they just seemed to sort of be like, OK, here it is. And like, put it aside and never talk about it again. And there are police reports basically showing like a lot of the steps that they made. I'm sure there's other steps they made, but they don't talk about this. on you it let's say that's true let's say they just it was just complete negligence on their part right so i'm with you i'm with you there with every little thing that the defense would bring up to try to discredit or create that level of reasonable doubt with what you just said seems pretty commonsensical you have another individual who's providing all this guilt knowledge he's implicating our client and yet there's nothing on our client. He's the one telling you that our client said it. But yet this person who's giving you all this pertinent knowledge that nobody would know unless they were actually there is also telling you in an interview that he had bought his girlfriend a piece of jewelry, a bracelet.

If you, I think was the exact words you used. You find a bracelet in the car. No, they didn't find a bracelet in the car. They found like a charm and he said no they didn't find a bracelet in the car they found like a charm and he said he had bought her stephanie a charm bracelet a charm bracelet so you find a charm in the car if i don't as a defense i don't need to confirm or track down who that bracelet that charm belonged to but i'm definitely going to bring it up at court that, hey, their key witness said that he purchased her a bracelet, a charm bracelet, the same day that Hay allegedly went missing. And they happened to find a charm in the car and they don't have an answer for how it got there.

That sounds a little suspicious to me. So my question to you would be, did the defense bring this up as a possible scenario? Listen, not during the first trial, but I haven't gone through the entire second trial. And he had a different defense team at that point. They may have, but I also think they were preoccupied with the cell phone records that they were saying weren't legit. And the Asia McLean statement, the alibi that was provided that, you know, they went back and forth with her on. So I think they were focused on like these big picture issues, trying to get this second trial to go Adnan's way. And I don't think that they were overly concerned. And like his legal team was a shit show. Let's, you know, to be honest, we weren't there yet, but his first lawyer defended him badly. She overlooked a lot of

things. Then the second lawyer is coming in. They've got to like put stuff together. It is very possible that this was overlooked by the defense team because they aren't going to be looking that deep into these things but let's go on i know it's terrible but i mean let's go on and say like maybe this isn't jay and the charm bracelet let's say maybe this is adnan who's responsible for hayes death maybe it was him who purchased the charm and the flowers. You know, his fingerprints were on floral paper found in her car. We can assume that the floral paper goes around flowers and there were bits of greenery found in that paper. So the flowers must have been a fairly new addition to the interior of the car.

Like I said, unless these flowers were withered and dead and had been in the car since the time period that Hay and Adnan were going strong and he would have been purchasing her flowers because she was his girlfriend at the time, it is suspicious to me that his fingerprints are on floral paper. Unless the floral paper found in the car was completely separate from the actual flowers found in the car, which means that the floral paper was possibly from a different bouquet of flowers that Adnan had given Haib months prior, and they just still had like stems and stuff in them. I don't know, but- He did give her flowers at school that one day, if you remember, he gave her a rose. But would it still be there like a year later? Maybe not a year later, but you know, like you you said I'm sure he had given her flowers after that and it seems like hey didn't clean out the car very often as

many teenagers do and and it could be from a previous experience seems like she had a lot of junk and just old stuff in there so yeah agreed this could be older paper that was just kind of in there from another another bouquet of flowers that he had given her the car is tough especially when one of your one of your persons of interest is someone who had a right to that vehicle pretty freely like they could have been in the trunk the they're all over the car someone like jay even jay if jay can prove just even once he had been in the vehicle well that's gonna hurt you so the only time that would really be an X factor is if let's say Alonzo Sellers, he becomes your main person of interest.

He says, I've never met Hayman Lee. I don't know her. I don't know what a vehicle looks like. And then you're going through and instead of being Adnan, it's Alonzo Sellers palm print on that map book. Well, guess what, Alonzo? Get a lawyer, buddy. So that's where it becomes significant when it comes back to someone who has no reasonable explanation as to how it got into the vehicle or should be in the vehicle. So you said earlier, like you're just saying now, you know, Adnan and Hay were dating. And then even after they weren't dating, they were still friends, best friends. Right. And, you know, she still gave him a ride. So he's consistently going

to be in her car. And we understand that his fingerprints are going to be there. But honestly, like I would have expected his fingerprints to have been there in a lot of different places. You know, it seemed like the places his fingerprints were were kind of places you you wouldn't expect them to be or he wouldn't have expected them to be like on an insurance card or on the back of a map book or on like an envelope in the trunk. It didn't seem like they were kind of all over the place, as you would expect if somebody was in the car a lot. So it almost made me wonder, like, did he wipe the car down that day or did he wear gloves that day? And that's why his fingerprints aren't all over the place, because you you would kind of expect his fingerprints to be like on the door and on the window and, you know, all over like normal parts of the car that you're not, you know, people are going to go, oh, yeah, Derek here. Well, we know what you think. You had said like, oh, Adnan and Heyman Lee were best friends at the time of her death. You know what I'm saying?

I know you're just saying that's because what statements are out there. I'm going to tell you right now not to I'm not giving anything away here. I don't know if they necessarily were best friends at the time of her death. I feel like certain things that we've discussed as far as her calling her teacher being like, hey, don't tell Adnan I'm on the phone with you. I is maybe an indication that the relationship might've been starting to teeter one end over the other. I think, Hey, was really into Don. And I think they were friends. I absolutely think they were close, but I think the relationship had different, definitely changed. And I'm only saying that because it is going to be part of my whole rationale as I'm going forward. I do think the relationship

wasn't as perfect as some would want you to believe. So I tend to agree with you. And I think that this is very high school thing, staying friends after breaking up. We all thought we were Can I ask you about that? No. Cause, cause, cause, cause I don't, I don't agree with that. Like, and that's why I want your personal experience because I can tell you that I've been broken up with. I've had my heart broken and the girl doesn't want you anymore. And the last thing I want to do is remain a friend, especially if she's dating someone else. And that guy's the reason she left me. I'm not talking to that girl ever again. I'm never going to even look her direction.

So I wanted to ask you, is that normal? Because you and I are very close in age. Maybe it's a generational thing. But I can remember from my own personal experience, if I had a bad breakup where the girl was choosing another man over me, and let's just call it what it is. She was starting to write Don, Don, Don in the book when she was still dating Adnan. So she definitely had wandering eyes and I'm assuming Adnan who was very in tune with it, probably picked up on that, probably put two and two together based on how soon after she started to have a relationship with Don, that Don might be the reason why it

was happening. And so to continue that relationship, like nothing happened and just to regress back into the friend zone, that's not an option for me personally. And so I wonder, did Adnan, did that actually happen? Or was Adnan doing that to hold in the hope that he could win her back? Or was that even the case at all? Or was it one sided? So what is your memory of how breakups like that would end between two people who were dating and are now not dating? Yeah. Like I said, it's very high school. You know, that's what that's what people did in high school. And and it was you know, I think they were trying to be like, oh, I'm above it all. You know, and I think there was an aspect of like, yeah, I'm going to be not bothered. And hopefully this person will look my way again.

Like they'll realize, you know, what they're missing out on, blah, blah, blah. And it's such a weird microcosm high school, you know, because you're like all shoved in there together like every day. It's kind of like a reality show. So, you know, sometimes you do wind up cycling back and dating that person again. So there is hope there that you would remain friends and remain on their good side. But I feel like once you get out into the real world and you become like, you know, in an adult relationship. Yeah, there's no there's no need to to remain friends with an ex, especially if there were some strong feelings there, because it's going to be very difficult in the aftermath to be around that person. Maybe down the line, you know, I just don't for me personally, like when I'm done with you, I'm done with you. You know what I mean?

Listen, I'm telling you guys right now, if for my ex-girlfriends from high school and stuff, you can weigh down in the comments, when we ended, if you broke up with me, you're dead to me. I don't know you anymore. Don't talk to me. Don't ask me for a pencil.

Don't ask me for a ride. Ask your new boyfriend for a ride, because I'm not available yeah okay so that's what when i first met my husband like i was friends with a lot of my exes but i had broken up with them so the fact that they wanted to remain friends to me it was like cool because it was like now i still have somebody to call if i need like my ikea furniture put together and i have this like person there, you know, several people. And my husband was like, guys don't remain friends with girls that they've dated because they just want to be

your friend. Like they're hoping that you will like have sex with them again. And I was like, no, I was like, no, you know, but who knows? I think some guys are probably genuinely just want to be friends. I don't know. If you dump me for another guy, good luck to you. Hope it works out. So yeah. Now as an adult, I'm kind of like over that. Once I'm done, I'm done. And if we're not together, I don't really have a lot of friends anyways. I don't need any friends. So I definitely don't need exes as friends. But yeah, I think that this was a high school thing. So I believe that they wanted it to appear as if they were still friends. But the amount of passion that they had between them, which you can tell, I mean, this kid's leaving his house, driving over to her house, sitting outside her basement window, talking to her through the window for hours, like in the middle of the night. This was a very strong

bond as it is when you're young, you know, and everything's so serious and so intense. So to go from that to just like buddies, I don't see it being a thing that's possible, especially that quickly. But I think they wanted to try and make it work. Yeah. Defying your parents, going against their wishes. I mean, there's a lot they're going against in order to be together. So they were really, there were strong feelings there, without a doubt. So, okay, we said maybe it could be, you know, Adnan. I was also looking, and you know, like, if Adnan was the one driving Hay's car on January 13th, which Jay claims Adnan was driving around Hay's car and Jay was driving around Adnan's car, right? You would expect his fingerprints to be

on the steering wheel in a lot more places unless he was wearing gloves or unless he wiped the car down. But now let's look at the flowers and the heart pendant and the gift box as maybe being something that Hay purchased. Maybe there were presents for her friend Stephanie, whose birthday it was that day. And maybe that was why Hay had told Adnan she couldn't give him a ride home before going to pick up her cousin because she realized it was Stephanie's birthday. When they were talking about it during lunch, they were talking about that stuffed reindeer that Adnan had left on Stephanie's desk. And Hay wanted to, you know, grab some presents for Stephanie before which might support that theory. But the heart pendant, it still had the price tag on it. And the price was $119.95, which seems kind of steep for a teenage girl to pay for a present for a friend. But, you know, maybe not. Hay was working. She had her own money. That still seems like a lot. I did see some stuff online, too, saying, you know, this was right

after Christmas. Maybe it had been purchased before Christmas when they have like those huge sales for the holidays. Maybe it was like 30% off or 40% off or something. I don't know. But basically, who knows what that heart pendant was, the flowers, the happy birthday crown, all of that stuff. It's never really clarified. But I do want to point out none of Jay Wild's fingerprints were found in Hay's car, which does make sense with his version of the story because, like I said, according to him, he and Hay were not close friends. They didn't really hang out. And Adnan was the one driving Hay's car that night while Jay was driving Adnan's car. So I don't know. I don't know what to say. The only explanation would be, again, Jay has said that Adnan told him he was wearing gloves. And that could also mean Jay was wearing gloves. And

that's how he knew that his prints wouldn't be found in the car. And that's why he said, oh, yeah, Adnan was wearing gloves. So you're not going to find anything because in reality, he's just talking as if it's Adnan when really it's him. That's if you're in that camp, that's what you're going to believe. I think it goes down to how much premeditation you think went into this event, whether it was Jay, whether it was Adnan, whether it was someone else. We're part five here, so we can start saying some things. Personally, I feel like this was a combination of maybe some thought about it in the past, but more a crime of passion in the moment when it happened, where it happened,

how it happened. So that to me is more likely that you're going to have mistakes like trace DNA, fingerprints, things like that. Because although the thought went through your head when it happened, it was just because you got to a point where this person and really put yourself in this mindset. They're in the car with her. They're having a discussion and something said that triggers the person. So they grab her by the throat. And as they're doing it, they're realizing, oh my God, look what I'm doing. She's going to tell people my life is over. And as they're thinking about it, they're still squeezing. And then they realize, oh my God, I can't let her tell anyone. And before you know it, because she wasn't expecting it, it's a minute or two later and

she's dead because it would not take long. That seems more likely than having a scenario like this, where whoever did it had this whole plan structured out ahead of time. And it was carried out this way i think the burial site would have already been dug things like that would have already been taken care of if that were the case so for me if you're operating under the belief that this was at some level a crime of passion and happened in the moment you would expect to find whoever was the offender their fingerprints or dna the vehicle. The fact that you have no

fingerprints from Jay and no trace DNA from Jay either means he's like a highly trained criminal and a professional, or it could also mean he was never in the car. Yeah. It kind of doesn't feel very spur of the moment to me. It kind of does feel a little bit more premeditated and I'm not going to say it was well planned out. You know, I mean, either way you look at it, you've got teenagers who are responsible for this, whether you think it's Jay or Adnan. So I wouldn't say it's well planned out. But the fact that there was so little physical evidence found in that car where allegedly this murder happened kind of lets me know that that some planning went into it, that whoever weaseled their way into Hay's car that day knew what they were planning to do once they got there. If it's an outside party

or Jay, I agree with you. If it's Adnan, then there's a ton of physical evidence in the car. You know what I mean? Not really, because his fingerprints aren't on the steering wheel. They're not on the door. He wasn't driving the car. Oh, you're saying after he was driving the car, but he could have at that point put gloves on. But then he brought gloves, so he clearly planned to need gloves for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, his fingerprints on the map, like you said, the insurance card, things like that. Weird places. Yeah. Yeah. That you wouldn't think to wipe down if you were like, I got to get my prints out of this car. But you could have your hand on the steering wheel with no gloves and simply take a sanitizing wipe that's in the car or take your T-shirt and just wipe down the steering wheel like you see in the movies. And you're good.

You're solid. So if it was Adnan, he does have fingerprints and palm prints in areas like the flower tissue paper, the glove box, things where, why are you going in her glove box? Why are you in there? I mean, I guess it could be a boyfriend thing, but overall, if we knew for certain it was him, then all of those fingerprints and palm prints that you're finding, you go, wow, yeah, it's pretty clear he was in that car that day. And I'll also say, although Adnan's fingerprints being in the car are not significant because he has the right to be there, he's been in and out of the car, I will also say that if he hadn't been in the car recently, you would expect some of those fingerprints because it's basically the oil from your skin that's sitting on a surface. It would deteriorate over time based on weather, based on conditions. So those fingerprints, they could be from within a week or so, maybe a couple of weeks. I don't know the exact number.

Don't lock me down to it. But they're relatively recent. That's what I will say. Doesn't mean they happened that day. And the car wasn't found until how long after her disappearance? 40, 45, 46 days. 45, 46 days. So just off that, we know that Adnan hadn't been in that vehicle more than likely in almost

two months. So the fingerprints can last a while if they're not disturbed. But if the vehicle is being used and he had touched the book months prior, if other people had touched it, it might destroy those fingerprint ridges that you have from the oil that collected on the book months prior, if other people had touched it, it might destroy those fingerprint ridges that you have from the oil that collected on the book itself. So those are things to consider, but nothing in here makes me say, wow, that's a smoking gun, especially when it comes to Adnan. Yeah. And it was a partial palm print on the book. I don't know if that matters. Yeah. I mean, the palm print though, it's still significant. Palm print's just as good as a

fingerprint. Sometimes that's all we get. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I didn't want anybody to come at us and be like, oh, there wasn't a fingerprint. It was a palm print. And we know. If you want to take anything from this whole block that we just did, the moral of the story is that the prints from Adnan don't really mean much considering the fact that he had the right to be there. If you're leaning that it's Jay, unless he did a really good cleanup, this hurts your case. If you're leaning that it's someone else completely unidentified, you'd expect to find those unidentified prints in the car. I haven't heard much about prints that were located but weren't matched to anybody. So that hurts that theory as well well there there

allegedly were like a bunch of prints in in the car but we don't care really anymore about that i'm glad you brought it up so i don't put my foot in the mouth if there's this bunch of prints that no one was able to identify match to friends cancel out based on law enforcement officials that were in the vehicle that as well is. But I do think you make a great point. I know we talked about it. I think the charm with the tag still on it, significant, something that should have been explored. And then also the flower paper, like you said, how old was it? Things like that. Would love to have access to that. Would love to know more about it. But we were really focusing a lot so far on Adnan and Jay because of the testimony from Jay. And I don't think anything

in this block regarding the evidence in the vehicle makes me lean one way or the other, or feel like there's something in there that could have really knocked it out of the park as far as getting them convicted or getting them off. I think the charm, the defense should have definitely brought that up and said, hey, you have one of your people here saying they bought a bracelet, charm bracelet, and there's a charm in the car. Hello? Hello. Hello. Let's take a break. We're going to go to a break. We'll be right back. Okay. So there's also a lot of talk about where and how Hay's car was found. So people usually, you know, in like Adnan's camp, the pro-Adnan people, they've inspected the pictures of the car and they've noted how lush and green the grass underneath it is. And they said, you know, they don't believe that it would have looked like that if the car had been parked there for 45 days.

So the suggestion is that the car was moved, whether by a suspect or by law enforcement trying to control the narrative. Now, remember that Hayes keys at some point after her death and before the car was found at some point in that like month and a half, or the cops were able to, to find Hayes keys and they just didn't tell anybody. And then they were moving the car around to sort of make Jay's story work so that they could get Adnan for murder. So just keep that in mind. I hope the picture is up right now. I do hear what people are saying. You can see the picture for yourself. We're not manipulating it. You can see how the grass is a little greener around the trunk area of the rear of the vehicle, but it does look like there's a dead spot that goes under the

vehicle a little bit on the driver's side. I will say, just to be fair, there's a black vehicle parked on the passenger side of Hay's vehicle. And it's pretty dead. It's pretty brown around that. Not like it looks under her car. It could be something. I'll concede that. But it could also be the way the sun comes down, the way it hits. I'm not a lawn expert.

I don't know but i wouldn't when i first heard you say this a couple episodes ago i was expecting it to be like this perfect like area where like there's grass literally right down the tire tracks where you could see that oh no clearly this was a a green spot that this car was pulled over i would just like to point out that if you're not seeing this on youtube it does appear to me that on the driver's side, at least, because I can't really see the passenger side, that there is some dead grass going under the vehicle, under the tires that may suggest that maybe this spot kind of grew in differently. But that's where I'm at on that. I don't think it's as significant as some people have made it out to be. So you said you're not a lawn expert, right? I'm not a lawn expert.

That's clear. I don't even deal with my own chemicals from my lawn. So you could say something that would make me feel otherwise and I wouldn't have anything to disseminate anything different than what you're saying. So I mean, very few people are lawn experts, but there are lawn experts, actually. Of course there are. Got one in my house. He's great. Shout out to Josh. So they actually consulted. So, you know, HBO did that like mini series of, of the Adnan Syed and Heyman Lee case. They did that like a mini series. And so they consulted with a man named Eric H. Irvin, who was an expert in turf grass.

He's actually a turf physiologist, which is crazy that, that they exist. So they consulted HBO, went up to this guy and they were like, hey, you know, like we think this car was moved and we want you to prove it. So Eric Irvin visited the grassy lot in June of 2018, and then he identified the main species of grass in that area. And there's a bunch of them. There was perennial ryegrass, Kentucky bluegrass, tall fescue, white clover, broadleaf plantain, prostrate knotweed, common Bermuda grass, and Dallas grass. So he dug up samples of each type of grass and he grew them in trays in a growth chamber at the University of Delaware under low light at the average high and low temperatures for each day the Hayes car would have been parked in that grassy lot. It's actually incredible. That's cool.

It's very cool. It's cool because he had to look up like the weather and the weather conditions and like what time the sun rose and sat on each day and sort of replicate that in the lab. It's so cool. So you guys can read this article actually, but it's on GCMonline.com. But in this article, Irvin says, quote, The idea was to get an initial determination of how many days the identified species would remain green. The photo indicates an abundance of green grass under the trunk area of the victim's car,

but only brown grass beneath the black car next to it. The black car had been at that spot for far longer than 46 days, which I think is something people overlook. Yeah, that car could have been there for years. Yeah, that black car wasn't just there for the same amount of time as Hay's car or less amount of time. It was there for far longer. So if the grass under the Sentra, which was Hay's car, turned brown in less than 46 days, this would

provide evidence that the car had been moved to that location sometime after the day of the murder, which would contradict a key witness statement and the prosecution theory that Syed had parked the car in the lot on the day of the murder, end quote. So Eric Urban, he had to sign an NDA and stuff. I don't know why he can talk about it now, but he basically told us that the results and his conclusions that were not what the HBO filmmakers were looking for, because the filmmakers at HBO, they pretty much wanted proof that Hayes' car had been moved. That was the narrative that they were spinning, which if you've seen this series, you'll know that that's absolutely true. There's always a bias. There's always a narrative. There's always something the filmmakers are trying to make you feel and think and believe. And this was what they were trying to do. And so he said basically his experiment that he did, the simulation, it didn't really give proof that Hay's car had been moved. He said he found that all the

cool season species remained mostly green for the full 46 days while the warm season species turned brown. So that's why you do see some brown under her car, but some of that towards the back of the trunk is still green. And it also has a lot to do with how cold it was during that time. I mean, it was January. And it also has to do with the fact that that part of the grass was shaded. So the sun wasn't hitting it as much. Things like that. There's a lot of factors. Moisture, rain, all those things too. Yeah. And I mean, he did say he was like, yeah, I guess it could have been moved, but there's nothing definitive in my simulation of my experience that show it was. So like anything's possible, but it is very possible that that grass just stayed green for 46 days and it could have done that.

And those cooler weather species of grass did stay green for 46 days in his it could have done that. And those cooler weather species of grass did stay green for 46 days in his simulation. So there you have it. I think a more like specific example that would suggest, yeah, definitely something's different as if like the area around Hayes' car had been recently cut

and under her car, it was like four feet long or vice versa, where it was just a complete opposite as far as how long the grass was. But it seems like all the grass, whether it's under the black vehicle, the red one or Hayes car, it's all pretty consistent in the cut, which then it gets down to the coloration of the grass, which goes back to what they were just saying. Different cars there for different lengths of time, different exposure to sun or lack of sun based on how long the vehicle's there would obviously contribute to how the grass dies

or how it grows in the winter and the colder months. Grass tends to grow down into the soil to hibernate. I don't even know if that's the right word for grass, but to kind of stay alive and then it'll come back up as the weather gets warmer. So for people, I don't think this was like a big thing, but I did see it by some people like, Hey, this is something to think about, but I will say, and I'll say it numerous times going forward for some people, man, for some people saying for some people, man. Yeah. And I will say it is something to point out. And then when you start to chain things together, like the grass, like the charm, like the phone

record where the Adnan's phone made a wreck call to Jen, all these things individually are not something that's like, oh, exculpatory. But if you chain enough things together, you create something called reasonable doubt. And that, my friends, is what a defense team does. It's not just one thing. They'll throw 30 things at you. You may not even believe in five or 10 of the things they bring out. They don't need to convince you of that. They only need one, but more of them together makes it even stronger. So things like

this in and of itself, maybe not much, but tack that onto everything else you have. And that's why you have millions of people out there who believe that Adnan's innocent and to be frankly honest with you they're not really wrong there is a lot in this case that is questionable and so that's why it's it's not like this outlier group of like 10 people who think he's innocent it's a lot of people and so there's some reasonable justification I don't think it's necessarily they think he's innocent. I think it's they think he should never have been put on trial for this. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. That's even a bigger group, right? That's even a bigger group. But there is, I mean, I've seen it in our comments. There's also a group that definitely thinks Adnan had

nothing to do with this. He's just completely innocent, guilty by association and being around and not having a good alibi for that time in question but we will get there yeah that makes him incredibly unlucky like we said last time like the the dude's gotta like get worse luck in the world over he's gotta go get like his you know seance or a purified exercise those demons because that's like a lot, man. Because even us looking at this right now, objectively, we can't say like, oh, yeah, we absolutely have no idea why this kid was arrested or why he went to trial because there's things that don't make sense. And not having an alibi is a pretty big deal. I'm sorry, things like that. You possibly saying to a friend, I'm going to kill her, you know, the day before the day of these things. I mean, being possessive, being a little stalkery, stuff like that. Like once again, it just like with the reasonable doubt

thing, the more you have, the more reasonable dowdy it becomes, right? The more of these other things that just don't add up, you have the more like suspicious it becomes. So it's just like, you got to stack those things up next to each other and see which tower is bigger. And, you know, I think that the reasonable doubt tower would probably be bigger, but it doesn't mean that the suspicious tower isn't big, too. No, we forgot even him saying, hey, I was back at school by 11 and there's this concrete proof. If you take the teacher at their word and their documentation that he confirm that. And his father saying he was at mosque all night and him making calls all through the time where he would be at mosque during evening prayer and wouldn't be able to make calls. There's a lot. So basically, after they took the car in and started processing it, the police went to Adnan's home on Johnny Cake Road.

They took him into custody and they began interviewing him. The two detectives, Detectives Ritz and McGillivary, were most likely hoping to get a confession from Adnan during his initial interview. And I think, you know, let's be honest, most police probably are hoping that in the interview when they have the suspect, the person will just say, yes, I did it. You caught me. And then, you know, it makes everybody's job easier. Less paperwork, less footwork, less investigation. And, you know, so makes everybody's job easier, less paperwork, less footwork, less investigation. And, you know, so they said things to scare him. They were like, we're going to find your red gloves and we're already going through your home and your car and we're going to find something to tie you to Hayes' murder. But Adnan insisted that he had no idea what they were talking about. Police also took and processed Adnan's Honda Accord, and they took soil and vegetation samples from his car, although they don't make it clear in the police reports if they took samples from the interior of the car and the trunk as well as the tires.

So it definitely looks like they took samples from the interior of the car because they talk about vacuuming stuff up, but they don't ever mention specifically taking soil or vegetation samples from the tires. But they did say that no soil or vegetation found in Adnan's car matched the area where Hay's body had been left. I assume they either took samples from the tires and found them to be negative, or they didn't take samples from the tires and we don't know what that soil and vegetation looked like because I feel like they had taken samples from the tires and the soil matched Leakin Park, we for sure would have heard about it. It would have been a huge deal in the prosecution's case and that would be kind of evidence, especially considering Rabia said Adnan didn't even know

where Leakin Park was. So I think that if... do you think that they took soil samples from the tires? Like they had to have, right? I mean, based on your argument earlier, they didn't do a lot of things they should have done. So you're kind of defending them now. But yeah, I mean, I would assume so, but. It feels like that's the thing you would do. Yeah. And even if they did find soil, though, in the car, in the tires that matched Leakin Park, it still can be interpreted a different way.

It can still be interpreted as Jay was driving Adnan's car at some point through there. Yeah. And also, I mean, if you think about it, there's a road that goes through Leakin Park. And Jay said they parked on the road and then walked into the park. So if you're parked on the road, you're not going to have like soil and stuff like that in the car. But you would think if you were digging in the dirt and then you got back into the car, you might leave some soil and dirt in the car. That would be picked up. Or if they vacuumed it.

I mean, the person vacuumed their car out afterwards. They're riding on the road for 40 days. They're going through different piles of snow and muck and debris, and it would diminish the amount of soil left behind in the tires. They're rubber tires, you know, there wouldn't be much there. Microscopic amounts at that point. I just, I think it's so like, their reports at least are very half-assed because I just have all these questions that are not answered. And it's frustrating to think that they might never be. But in the front passenger seat, they found one wrestling glove and they found a white envelope. And in the glove compartment, they found an envelope with passport photos of Adnan inside. So, you know, you have to have like a certain photo when you're going to get a passport. So it wasn't an actual passport. It was passport photos. They also found some jeans in the back seat that had stains on them, but these were tested for blood. They came back negative. At his house, police collected several articles of clothing

and footwear. In the basement, they recovered a pair of suede ramrod boots. And in the bedroom of Adnan's middle brother, they took a pair of dark brown Timrod boots. And in the bedroom of Adnan's middle brother, they took a pair of dark brown Timbaland boots. In Adnan's bedroom, they found a psychology textbook with pictures of Adnan and Hay inside, as well as several greeting cards. And this is also where they found that note. Remember the one Hay had written Adnan where he said, where she was like, oh, you got to get over over this and then Adnan and Asia had passed it back and forth during class and they were writing on it and then Adnan had written at the top I'm going to kill without finishing that sentence allegedly Adnan wrote that right

well yeah yeah yeah I mean I guess listen I'm just you always get me on that one so I'm allegedly because he's always said he did not write that correct he said he doesn't remember writing it but he doesn't remember shit about that day so can i really like yeah yeah it's it's convenient criminals if they are guilty have a tendency to not remember much of the day in question that is something that happens may not be the case here like we said i'd not might be a really unlucky guy with a case of selective amnesia. But you know, these are things, and I'm not saying it because some of you can see my face. I'm not saying it to make light of it. But there are certain things that I think like the words being, I'm going to kill on a card like that is not good considering what we're talking about here over these last five episodes. It's

not a good thing to see. And it's not something you would normally expect to see. We talk about teenagers and the way they act a little different than as adult, you know, we do as adults. This is something that's still very uncommon. I think even for teenagers to be writing, uh, anywhere. I don't think that's something that I've ever seen during my days in high school, where people were writing things like that. Now, maybe Adnan didn't write it, but again, considering the circumstances we're under, if he didn't, what a thing to have written on something in your possession when you're being questioned about a murder of your girlfriend. Very unlucky.

Especially, I mean, the greeting card, like you said, just to confirm, the greeting card was from Hay. It wasn't a greeting card. It was like a note, you mean, the greeting card, like you said, just to confirm, the greeting card was from Hay. It wasn't a greeting card. It was like a note. A note going back and forth about Hay. Well, no, it was from her initially. Remember, she had written it to him and she was like, I don't want to deal with this anymore. Like, you need to get over this.

Not good. And then Adnan and Asia had passed it around and they were writing things on it. Like, remember, Hay was pregnant and she wasn't at the field trip and things like that. You got me now. Yeah, not good. Not good. Again, not something that's a smoking gun, but just like we talk about. It's in the suspicious tower.

Yeah, suspicious tower. Just like we talk about a bunch of evidence that would create a level of reasonable doubt. There's also, like you said, the suspicious tower where there's a bunch of things individually, not something that you can write your whole case on, but you add them up. It's called circumstantial evidence. And there are cases where if you have enough circumstantial evidence, you can have a guilty conviction, right? So this is something just like the circumstantial evidence that says he's not guilty. These are things that you wouldn't expect to find in a teen boy's room when it's a note about a girlfriend that was recently killed and she broke up with him shortly before her murder.

Yeah, very unlucky, like I said. Not good. Yeah. So Adnan actually waived his Miranda rights at 7.55 a.m. on February 28th, 1999, and the police went on to interrogate him for the next six hours. At no time did he confess, but the police also did not record or videotape this interview, which I find to be problematic because they did record the interviews with Jay. I find it to be problematic that a 17-year-old was allowed to waive 16-year-old was accused of killing an adult. And this 16-year-old went in and waived their Miranda rights and then just basically, like, said a bunch of incriminating things. And the mother was like, well, that shouldn't have been allowed to happen. Like, he's underage.

He's a minor. And the police were like, well, because he was being charged or he was suspected of, you know, being a murderer, it didn't matter. And I don't know if that's like a thing, but as far as I'm concerned, if you're under the age of 18, you don't know what you're doing. You have no idea that you have certain rights, like you have the right to a lawyer and you have the right to not talk to a police. And for you to waive those rights on your own without having the counsel of an adult who will be able to give you good advice, I think it's very, oh, I think it's really gross on behalf of the police, honestly.

Yeah. I mean, it's something where we always made it a practice if you were a juvenile to have a police parent present to sign off and wait and allow you to speak to them and give permission to speak with your child. I do think there are circumstances where if there's a sense of urgency because of the case where someone's life might be at risk, where you can ask questions now and make the justification for it later. But in this particular case, because at this point it had been a long time since anything had come from this case, it would have been the best practice to get the parents permission. Although I will say, I believe, unless you tell me otherwise, this interview, although it was not recorded, which I completely agree with you, stupid, should have been, whatever was said

during that interview, it was allowed to be admitted into court, even though there wasn't much there. So whatever the law is, it obviously passed that threshold so that it wasn't admissible in court, right? Unless you're telling me it was thrown out. I mean, I guess. Or there was nothing significant in there. So ultimately it wasn't necessary and they never presented anything in court. If he didn't admit to anything, then yeah, I mean, it's a lot of nothing for six hours. Yeah, he didn't confess. He just kept saying like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. And apparently there was an attorney who had been called on Adnan's behalf.

And this attorney had been trying to get to Adnan for hours. He was like calling the police and he showed up. And I guess the police wouldn't let him see Adnan. And they didn't even tell Adnan that he had a lawyer there waiting to like intercede on his behalf. So that's also problematic. It's pretty, it's pretty gross. Once again, like I understand that the police are legally allowed to lie to you, but to me, these are basic human rights, the right to an attorney, the right to, you know, be a kid and not know what the hell you're talking about and be able to have somebody there who can guide you. And these rights were completely denied him. And I don't like it personally. Well, this is outside the scope of trickery.

You can't if the lawyer is present. If the lawyer is there or the or the or the person being interviewed states at any point they want their lawyer present, questioning immediately has to stop. So the only I guess you would call it loophole here would be if Adnan waived his rights to an attorney lawfully and a lawyer decides to show up in the lobby and say, I want to speak to Adnan, law enforcement doesn't have to let them speak to him. Do you get what I'm saying? Well, that's pretty much what happened, right? He waived his rights at 7.55 AM and then the lawyer showed up on behalf of him and then the police, But that's like dirty, man. It's grimy. is legally allowed to waive his right they don't have to if they're trying to get this kid for murder this lawyer is going to come in there they know what the lawyer is going to do they're going

to tell them to stop talking so do i think the police officers knew what they were doing in that moment and it's a slimy move yeah of course they did so it's one of those things where it i'm not going to sit here and lie to you guys and say it doesn't happen now if if adnan had said i want my attorney present and they were just sitting there waiting and the attorney showed guys and say it doesn't happen. Now, if Adnan had said, I want my attorney present and they were just sitting there waiting and the attorney showed up and they're still just not bringing him in because they're hoping Adnan changes his mind because he's fatigued or nervous or whatever the case may be. And maybe Adnan will reinitiate the conversation with them with at that point, it can be considered a waiver of your client attorney privileges.

That would be wrong. But if Adnan waived his rights and he's sitting in there talking to him freely and the lawyers in the lobby saying, hey, or a phone call, not even in the lobby, but a phone call, do I think they probably said, yeah, we'll get back to you? And they hung up the phone. Yeah, I think you're right. I don't think you're wrong at all. I'm not going to sit here and say you are. He's 17 years old. He doesn't know enough to know to be able to waive his rights. That's the whole point. He's under the age of 18. He's a juvenile. He's not allowed to waive his own rights. I don't look at- Can I be a jerk here? Can I be a jerk here? I'm going to be a jerk. The only thing I'll say is he's a 17 year old guy. And immediately when he turns 18, he knows the difference between whether he has the right to an attorney or

not. I think. Yeah. Yeah. According to your law, you know, if it's legal for, you know,

the police to lie to you. And if it's legal for the police to get a 17 year old to waive his rights and then have a lawyer, they are ready to talk to him and help him. And for them to completely say like, no, you can't do that. You said it's grimy, but it's legal. Then yeah, like that's the law. At 18, apparently you overnight know what you're doing. And at 17, you don't. I don't agree with it, but I don't agree with the other part of the law that we were just talking about with the whole lawyer thing, but he already waived his rights. So

they're not going to let him talk to his Like, I don't agree with either of those things necessarily, but if we're going to follow one, we got to follow the other. I just, I guess I would have to know more about this because my understanding, this is my understanding. A 17 year old cannot waive his, waive his or her rights. That's what I thought too. That's what I thought too. And literally I'm dealing with the same thing in another case, which I believe happened in Iowa. And I looked it up and I searched and I searched and it basically says like, no, they can't. But the way that the prosecution in this other case made it seem as they were like, well, because of the severity of the crime he's being charged with, none of this matters. He can waive his own rights. Well, I think I think at court he could be treated as an adult. He could be tried as an adult. The only thing I think would be an exception is not to be redundant, is if there's a missing person where they believe the 17 year old abducted this child and the child still alive in a shed somewhere. The preservation of life becomes more important than their rights. So they're going to get him in there and say, hey, where is she? Where is he right now? We need to know. But this isn't one of those cases. So

what I'm thinking is the reason this wasn't a bigger deal, because there was nothing said during that interview that hurt Adnan's case. If he had said during that interview, yes, I did it. I think you would have an issue of admissibility. And it would have been something that would have been contested where defense would have said he was under the age of 18. Anything he said during that interview that was incriminating, it's inadmissible in a court of law and they would have won. But I feel like we're talking about it because you want to bring everything up and I'm acknowledging that it's a slimy move or whatever, all that good stuff. But ultimately there was nothing said during that interview that was significant. And therefore, it became kind of a moot point in a bigger case

that defense was concentrating on other things as far as police conduct and how they carried the investigation out. All right. So even though he didn't confess to anything during that six hour interrogation, Adnan Syed was charged with the murder of Haiman Lee and booked that night. Police now reveal that 18-year-old Haiman Lee died of strangulation and that they discovered her 1998 Nissan Sentra a short distance from where her killer attempted to bury her body in a shallow grave in Lincoln Park. Key details they had withheld as they sought out a suspect. They now have one in custody. He's identified as a 17-year-old Woodlawn student. His name is Adnan Musad Syed. News of Syed's arrest is met with disbelief by the Muslim community in Woodlawn.

It's impossible. He cannot do it. He's such a nice, sweet child. He cannot do it. He's must going, praying all the time. He cannot do it. He's a sensitive guy. He's gentle. He has no kind of delinquency record. He's not violent. He's just a kid.

He's just a baby. He's like my little brother. The Chaudhry's believe public pressure on police to break the case has landed the wrong person behind bars. The police suggest the suspect had a motive in the form of a fatal attraction to his victim. According to investigators, Ms. Lee and the suspect, Mr. Syed, had started a friendship back in May of 1998. And at some point after that, Ms. Lee decided to want to break the relationship off, didn't want to go any further with it.

So from that clip, we do have an answer to a question that a lot of you had from last week's episode. Had the cause of death of Hae Min Lee been made publicly available at the time that Jay initially spoke to the police and told them that Adnan had strangled her? And the answer to that is no. This was not revealed until after Adnan's arrest. So Jay either knew this information because he had been there and or been involved, or the police told Jay how Hay had died before he began his interview. And that was how he knew. But that doesn't really work either, because then I went back to Jen Pusateri's interview and I read through that again.

And she says towards the end that Jay told her that Adnan strangled Hay. And this was before Jay spoke to the police, so it does seem like this was guilt knowledge that Jay just happened to have because this was not revealed to the public until after Adnan was arrested. Yeah, I agree. I'm going to weigh in on that as well. Let's take a break. We'll be right back. So we're back from break and I agree with everything you said. You know, I know there's people out there that want to believe that the police fed Jay this information to strengthen his statement. And there are things that Jay knew like like the strangulation, before he ever spoke to police, right? And more importantly, there was a vehicle, Hayes' vehicle, that had not been found yet.

So even the police didn't know where the car was until after they spoke to Jay. So either Jay was the first person to give them that information, or they knew where the car was the whole time and said, Hey, let's just keep it here. We'll wait till we get someone who comes in. We'll tell them where the car is and they can tell us. So we can kind of get this ball rolling. Just think about that. Say it out loud to yourself and you tell me if that makes sense.

I don't think it does make sense. No, of course not. Oh, they found the car. Police drove by. There's Hayes car. But let's pretend we don't see it. Let's wait until we go to Jen Jen leads us to Jay Then we'll pin we'll have Jay say it so we can get the guy that we really want which is Adnan

I'm not trying to be condescending here when I say that that's what some people Want us to believe as we're researching this Again, let me repeat this because it's significant jay told the police where the car was the police didn't tell jay they didn't have the car yet and like you and like stephanie said before the break jay had told jen before he was ever spoken to by police that had not had strangled hey now you could make the argument that he's lying about Adnan and Jay did it himself. But to make the argument that Jay was fed all of this information from police, I'm just telling you now I'm off that train. I don't believe it. I didn't believe it when it was said initially because of these factors. And even more so now that's not pro law enforcement,

that's just pro common sense. So I believe that law enforcement did guide him in his second and third interviews to sort of make his story fit more with the timeline, with what the cell phone records said. I will say that. I buy that as well, by the way. I buy that as well. I don't think before they interviewed him for like an hour, they were like, OK, Jay, here's what you're going to say when the tape recorder comes on. You're going to say he was strangled and you're gonna say that it non brought

Her to Leakin Park and Jay's like what's Leakin Park? Don't worry about that kid. Just say it Just say here. I'll write it down for you If you need help remembering, you know, I don't believe that that happened by the way the cars over here, too We need to know where that is Yeah, we found the car man like three weeks ago But we've just been waiting for someone like you to come in and be the messenger of this information. So we're going to need you to pretend you led us to the car. It just would cross every legal, moral, ethical, professional boundary, every single line. And there would be too many people who would have to be on board for it and who would have to-

Including Jay. Yeah. Including Jay, who at any time now could have turned around and been like, you guys, I'm so sorry about what happened to Adnan. It was the police's fault. He would get paid millions for that, by the way. Oh, my God. He would be able to write up. I mean, he wouldn't be able to write a book, but he'd have a ghostwriter write him a book. He'd be interviewed on every news channel. Jay Wilds would be a hero who finally came clean about the conspiracy of the police against Adnan

Syed. So why hasn't that happened? Because it didn't happen. He could make the argument. You could make the argument that it hasn't happened because Jay's like, shit, I just got away with murder. I'm not saying nothing. But that being the case, I don't believe that happened. Yeah. Yeah. He's like, well, if they want to go with Adnan, sure. Yeah, it's Adnan, they want to go with that non sure yeah, it's a non whatever you guys say But to be fair I agree with everything you said I don't think I think they were definitely Things that were coming up during the interview where it's like that time stamp doesn't work Jay You sure it wasn't a couple hours earlier or something like that and it's wrong It shouldn't have happened and doing that weakens the whole case. And it also probably makes Jay

question what he's thinking. You should have let him stay with his original statement, even if it was wrong, because I would rather have certain timestamps wrong, but have them be consistent over multiple testimonies as opposed to him now thinking, well, what did I tell the police? I know what I thought, but what did I tell the police? Because they kind of told me that that might not be right, or they made comments that made me think it was wrong. So I changed what I said because I felt like I was saying it wrong. And now I don't remember what I originally said. Just let the person say what they feel. Not everything's going to be right. No one expects them to be perfect with times, but at least their story, regardless of how many times they're asked about it, will be the same. That's more important. Yeah. And in my opinion, honestly, I've gone

through all of his interviews multiple times. In my opinion, it's Jay leading the police. All right. It's Jay feeding the police information. And then the police, you know, maybe they did sort of already by that point have a strong feeling towards it not so he was just like providing them the confirmation bias that they that they wanted and that they needed who knows but in my opinion he's feeding them the information that I believe he already knows because he was involved and they're eating it up very quickly and he's like oh shit like they'll believe anything so he's changing his story constantly and they never, they do kind of push back a little bit in the second and third interview, but they never really say like, you're clearly lying here. What are you hiding? Like,

what is your involvement more than you've said? Because you're lying. They never really get like aggressive with him or like, you know, pushy with him. They kind of are incredibly patient and they question him, but they question him to bring him back on track. They don't question him or like, you know, pushy with him. They kind of are incredibly patient and they question him, but they question him to bring him back on track. They don't question him to like actually dig deeper into what his involvement is, in my opinion. Yeah, they don't want him to clam up. He's giving them the whole case on a platter. The last thing they want him to do is be like, wait, you guys think it might be me? I'm not saying anything else. Figure it out on your own. So you have a guy walk in and he's giving you a case that frankly, at that point, they have not had not solved at all. They couldn't even find the car. So it's in it, but because it had never been put into the system. NCIC.

Yeah, as a car that was attached to a missing person, it didn't flag it or pop up. Yeah, this was a golden nugget put in their lap. They were like, hey, we're not going to screw this up because we're in no way, shape or form close to solving this case. So let's we got a chance now. So Jay actually sat down for his second interview with the police on March 15th, 1999. So it's about two weeks after his first interview and two weeks after the arrest of Adnan Syed. So this time Jay begins his story with the morning of January 12th, saying it was his birthday and he went shopping with an ex-friend of his. And he is referring to Adnan.

He said they went to Walmart, which was right across the street. So they left Adnan's car at Jay's house and walked over, and then they shopped and they picked up some things. During this shopping trip, Jay said he brought up his girlfriend Stephanie and how her birthday was the following day, and that led to him and Adnan talking about relationships, and that's when Adnan said he was going to kill that bitch, referring to Hayman Lee. Jay said, quote, he told me that she had broke his heart. That was extremely wrong for anyone to treat him that way. He couldn't believe how she stood and looked him face to face and told him she didn't love him and could be that heartless. And he told me,

he said almost jokingly, I think I'm going to kill her. Yeah, I think I'm going to kill her. End quote. Jay claims the whole reason Adnan wanted to see him that day was to enlist his help with the disposal of Hay's body. And Jay said that Adnan had told him the way he was going to do it and he was going to tell Hay that his car had broken down and he needed a ride and then he would kill her in her car. Jay said that Adnan dropped him back home and returned to school. And that's important because remember, Jay said they walked to Walmart and left Adnan's car in the parking lot. But now Jay's saying Adnan dropped him back off at home and then went to school. So these are small inconsistencies that could mean something or nothing. It could mean he's making

everything up. But in this version of the story, we have Adnan telling Jay the day before, the morning before that he's going to kill Hay and he wants Jay's help to do it. Yeah, I think it's definitely not good that he's lying. And I will say that one explanation for this could be police manipulating the story to be more in line with what they believe happened but i'll tell you another scenario if you're to believe that adnan's involved and that jay uh was told this information maybe jay's not just kind of the innocent bystander where he's listening and kind of surprised that he's saying this but maybe jay's egging him on hey man that's that's messed up what she did listen i'm not gonna kill her but if you do

this i got your back i'll help you any way i can i'll help you get rid of it i know some people i've seen some things i've been around some some people who've done stuff like this i you're my you're my boy i got your back whatever you need if you go through with this i got you maybe not even thinking he's actually gonna do it but just trying to act like a tough guy like a hardened criminal and so i feel like like Jay knows this and Jay's maybe not only was more of a contributor to the conversation, but may have actually empowered Adnan to feel like he could get away with it because he was going to help him. So I'm not, I have no proof of that, but that would be a possible explanation as why Jay can't

get his story straight on a few different things. Because the truth is, Jay was actually encouraging him to do it by saying, hey, whatever you need, I'm there for you. And in fact, I can't remember the name, but you had said in a previous episode that that's exactly what Jay had told one of Adnan's friends, correct? So not too far off from what could be a reality where Jay was a lot more involved than he wants people to believe. And that's why he can't get a story straight when it comes to little things like this, because he absolutely is lying because he's trying not to incriminate himself any more than he already has. Yeah, I totally see that. And I totally understand what you mean too, because let's say you spent three hours doing something and let's say you went on a shopping spree at a store during those three hours and you come home and your husband's like, what did you do today? And you're like, well, I went to Starbucks and then I walked to the park and then you get to the shopping spree part and you're like, I ain't telling this motherfucker. I just spent like four hundred dollars at the store. Right. So now you're all like caught up and you're like, well, and then, you know, I went to Target and I saw a dog and then I left and it was raining, but it wasn't raining. And then you get all like messed up because you're trying to like tell a story that's mostly true.

But you get to like a rough patch where you got to suddenly make something up on the fly. And it's not really a good kind of, you know, like cohesive story because half of it is not true. So I completely understand what you mean. And I think that's very plausible. He did seem like that type. You know, they all kind of seem like they thought they were hard. And, you know, you know, he's a drug dealer and he said he was the criminal element of Woodlawn High School. And he kind of saw himself that way.

Right. And this is an industrious point out of a thin air. Allegedly, Jay said this to someone else. So it's not like this revelation that we're pulling out of our asses. It was allegedly, it was said by Jay directly to someone. So how would we not take that to be significant and a possibility as far as what really transpired between these two the day before and the day of. Absolutely. And so Jay's saying like, okay, we went to Walmart. Adnan brought me back home, even though they walked. Adnan goes back to school. And then Jay paged his friend, Jen Pusateri, and he said they went to Galston Park with her dog. And it was there and then that Jay told Jen about what Adnan had said during their shopping trip,

which is a completely different story than he told before, right? So he said later that night, he went to Champs to celebrate his birthday. He returned home around 10 p.m., at which point he received a call from Adnan, which once again, we do have a call from Adnan to Jay on the evening of the 12th, but that call happened at 9.18 p.m. So if Jay got home at 10, he would not have been home for that call. And that call lasted only 18 seconds. What is being said here? Adnan's like, Jay, it's me. I'll be there in the morning. It's going down tomorrow and hangs up.

What is happening in 18 seconds? So at first I was like if maybe Adnan had called and left a message for Jay and then Jay called him back when he got home and he sort of like just rolled those two things into one and said he talked to Adnan when he got home. But there's only one incoming call to Adnan after that 9.18 p.m. call. It happened at 9.32 p.m., which means Jay would still not be home if he said he didn't get home until 10. And that call only lasted 28 seconds. So before I go on, I do want to mention that, like, in this story that Jay tells, Jen is basically like an accomplice or an accessory at this point because he's told her,

like, yo, Adnan just brought me to Walmart and we made a plan to kill his girlfriend. You know, like, it's going down. And Jen is supposedly knew about this on the 12th when Hay is obviously still alive and she doesn't tell anybody and she doesn't do anything to stop it. So if that's the true story, if that's the true version of events, this is a problem for Jen, you know, and maybe that's why her story is kind of like not super reliable either. Yeah, I agree. If someone's saying, well, Jay saying this happened, which incriminates him to a certain degree because he knew about it and didn't tell police. Well, if he told this to Jen, Jen's sitting there with her lawyers and her parents. She knows that this isn't good for her. So could she have omitted that fact? Yeah.

I mean, she's human. Of course she could have. And remember, she said when the police came to her house, she went to the video store and said to Jay, like, yo, the police are at my house. Like, what am I going to do? And he said, tell them what happened. Tell them whatever happened that doesn't get you in trouble. That was like the specific wording that he had used. So it's possible. I wouldn't be surprised. We talk about teenagers and stuff. This absolutely could have happened.

A hundred percent could go down exactly the way Jay's saying it, where he was telling Jen and maybe she didn't think it was real. And obviously she's having some guilt after the fact, thinking, oh my God, I could be charged with a crime here. At minimum, people are going to hate me because I could have prevented it. I'm not going to say that I knew that. So, yeah, there's a lot of reasons why she would lie to law enforcement. And if she knows the only other person who can dispute what she's not saying is Jay. So good luck. It's literally a he said, she said.

Yeah, this whole case is a he said, she said. Facts. Yeah, true. So I would also like to point out that while Adnan was making all of these phone calls late at night on January 12th, he was not home. So remember, this is the night he called Hay three times. He had to talk to her. He had to give her his new cell phone number. He was apparently driving around. It looks as if he was home until around 11 p.m. Then his calls ping at different locations, towers that were not the

normal ones his phone would ping off of if he was home. So for instance, the calls to Nisha at 11.05 p.m. and to Krista at 11.07 p.m., they pinged off of tower L651C, which is the tower that does cover Adnan's house. But when he calls Hay at 11.27 PM, the call pings at tower L608C, which is basically all the way across town. And it's not really like close to anything. I zoomed in. It looks like there's like a kind of shopping area. There's a bunch of stores, Home Depot, Chick-fil-A, Panda Express. I suppose the adult video store where Jay worked would fall under that tower, but according to Jay, he was home at this time and not at work. So maybe Adnan was just driving around. When Adnan called Hay

again just after midnight on the 13th, he was near the L602C tower. That tower is in downtown Baltimore. And then when he calls and talks to Hay at 1235 AM, his phone pinged tower L654A, which looks like it's close to both Jay and Jen's houses. So from all things that I can see, he was probably just driving around. At this point, he doesn't have a place that he's going. I was wondering maybe was he like following Hay or going to her house and trying to like see if she was home. But he doesn't go close to Hay's house, at least all night through her window. It seemed like with a family so strict, they wouldn't like Adnan driving around at midnight on the phone when he had school the next morning. It seems like he was kind of up to his old tricks again. And I'm just not sure why he would feel the need to be driving around and making phone calls instead of being home, especially because it doesn't seem like there was any place that he had to be. I definitely agree. He's got school the next morning. Like you said his family appears to be pretty structured

So I definitely have those same questions as well. What is he out doing at that time of night? I think another question that we got a lot of comments about because I had hit on it Was it regards to these calls to hey and the last one being as you just said 1235 p.m. And the last one being, as you just said, 1235 a.m., I should say, people said that was pretty normal. That was pretty normal for them to talk late at night. And I don't disagree with you guys, but my understanding from seeing- Yeah, when they were dating. When they were dating, first off, I agree with you there. But also, there was a system in place where he would call, he would page her, then they would call this number so that her phone wouldn't ring. My interpretation of this is that he was directly calling the house at 1130 and then at 1230 in the morning. So when you think about how short the duration of that call was, would you say a minute

and 24 seconds or something? It was super short. We always talk about these different scenarios, what could have been said, you know, what's our relationship? Who are you with all these different things that could have been said by Adnan and Hey, well, here's another one. Adnan, what are you doing? Why are you calling me still? You're calling my house. My parents are waking up. They're going to hear this. What are you doing? Where were you? What are you doing? Why aren't you picking up the phone? I've been trying to call you just Adnan. I'll talk to you tomorrow. I can't talk right now. Can we please just talk tomorrow? Okay. I want to talk to him. I think I'm going to need a ride. All right. That's fine. I'll talk to you tomorrow. Bye. Boom. Calls over. Could be something as simple as that. But from what you've told me and from what we've gathered, there's been no indication that after

they broke up, there was a new ritual in place where Adnan had permission to call her house at almost one o'clock in the morning when she has siblings, parents, and has school in the morning. That is not normal. So these are all things in totality with the fact that he was driving around that would suggest a pattern of behavior that wasn't necessarily normal for Adnan or for Hay. So he could have paged her. And because she was already on the phone with Don, you know, their system still stood. But I was almost wondering, you know, the whole driving around at night thing. There would have been a record of that. If he had paged her from his cell phone, there would be a record of that.

What if he paged her from his house phone? It seems to me like the way you explained it, he was out on the road for a while, nowhere near the house, between 1130 and 1230. So would he pager and then drive all the way across town to the first spot and then to downtown Ball? If he paged her, he's expecting a call within a couple minutes. There would definitely be a call log of him paging her phone. He was calling the house directly. Without that system in place. Right. And when she had a pager that he was aware of. Yeah. Sounds like it was a sense of urgency for him to get in contact with her. That's my interpretation of it. Only mine, but that's my opinion. He was really trying to

get ahold of her immediately. A sense of urgency and a restlessness, right? This whole driving around thing. Did he get her on the phone and say, you know, I'm out, I got the car, like I got free time, you know, can I stop over? We can talk. Yeah, can you hang out? And that's a great point too. Didn't think of that.

So maybe he's driving around hoping she's free, waiting for her to come home so he can go and see her. And when he finally does get her on the phone, she's like, I'm on the phone with Don. Like I, you know, I can't hang out tonight and he's hurt maybe by that. Yeah, or going to bed why are you calling me so late a lot of things but yeah you're right maybe he was like yeah i'll come pick you up we'll hang out yeah yeah it's this there's a lot of stuff could have happened here um but i just don't understand why

he's driving around at this hour of night and what he's doing and it just is if he's not doing anything and he has no plans, it's a restless thing. And according to Jay, this was the night of the day that Adnan told him, oh, I'm gonna kill her and this is how I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna tell her my car broke down and I needed a ride. So he could have been setting the stage for that already if what Jay is saying it's true.

But let's continue on with Jay's series of events. He claimed that on the 13th, Adnan showed up at his house around 11 or 11.30 a.m., and that's a 15-minute difference from his first interview where Jay claims that Adnan got to his house around 11.45 a.m. Jay said that the two of them then drove in Adnan's car to Security Square Mall, which is when Jay went to one of those kiosks in the middle of the mall and he purchased a charm bracelet for his girlfriend, Stephanie. And he and Adnan then discussed the details of Hay's murder. Adnan told Jay that he was going to leave him with his car and his cell phone, and after he had killed Hay, he was going to call Jay, and Jay would need to

come and pick him up. Jay dropped Adnan at the back of Woodlawn High School between 12.45 and 1.15 p.m. That's a pretty big window and a big change from his first interview where he said he dropped Adnan off at school at 12.30 p.m. After that, he went to Jen Pusateri's house, which was only a five-minute drive from Woodlawn High School once again. Jay claims her brother was home and they played video games for about half an hour or an hour. But he also says in literally the same breath that Jen wasn't home yet, but she got home around 1.30, which would technically mean she got home very shortly after Jay arrived, depending on whether he dropped a ton off at school at 12.45 or 1.15 p.m which, once again, that's a big window. That's a half-hour difference.

If we're trying to be precise here, we can't be. So Jay also says that he and Jen, at some point while they were hanging out at her house, they left in her car, they took a ride, they got some soda, and then in the car, he told Jen again that Adnan was planning to kill Hay, which, once again, makes Jen look really bad because now in this version, Jen knew that Adnan was planning to kill Hay, which, you know, once again makes Jen look really bad because now in this version, Jen knew that Adnan was going to kill Hay before it happened, not after it happened, twice before it happened. So Jay said he left Jen's house around 3.40 p.m. because Adnan had called him and said it was time. Well, he hadn't really called him and said it was

time. So in this version of events, Jay said that Adnan called the cell phone three times while he was at Jen's house. The first time Adnan was checking to make sure the cell phone was on. The second time Jay told Adnan he would be there to pick him up. So Jay doesn't really explain this, but apparently it seems like the second time Adnan was calling once again to like make sure everything was OK. And Jay was in position. And Jay was like, yeah, don't worry. Whenever you need me, I'm there to pick you up.

And the third conversation was short. Jay couldn't remember what they talked about. Then Adnan called Jay at Jen's house on her home phone number. And this was when he told Jay that he was leaving school, but he still didn't say where he was going or when he needed to get picked up. So keep this in mind. We've got three incoming phone calls to Adnan's cell phone that's in Jay's possession while Jay's at Jen's house. And then Adnan called Jen's home number to say, I'm leaving school, basically like he's about to kill Hay. But he still doesn't give Jay any directions of where he's going or when he needs to be picked up. Jay claims that after he left Jen's house and he was halfway between her house and his house, that's when Adnan called again on the cell phone and told Jay to go to

the parking lot of Best Buy. Jay said that Adnan told him, that bitch is dead, come and get me, I'm at Best Buy. Okay, so in Jay's first interview, he said Jen got home at 12.45. Now he says she got home at 1.30. Let's look at the call logs from Adnan's cell phone again, which both Adnan and Jay agree was in Jay's possession on this day, the cell phone. There's three incoming calls between 12.43 p.m. and 3.15 p.m. And then there is one call to Jen's house at 3.21 p.m. Now, this kind of sounds right at first glance. Three calls from Adnan, and then Adnan called Jen's house to tell Jay he

was leaving school. The only problem is Jay had Adnan's cell phone, so Jay would have been the one to make that call to Jen's house. And why would he do that when he was at Jen's house and he didn't leave until 3.40? Now, this is what I think happened. It's possible that he was just trying to make a story fit the cell phone records and not being an overly brilliant person. He was looking at the cell phone records. He knew he was looking at Adnan's cell phone records.

He saw the call to Jen's house at 3.21 and then he made this claim to just fit. Not really putting two and two together that he had Adnan's cell phone at the time because he makes these little mistakes a lot. Because this is the first time Jay mentions that Adnan called Jen's house. He does not say that in the first interview. So did the police pull the phone records of Jen's home to see if a call had been made to her house from Woodlawn High School on January 13th between 1 and 3 p.m. I have no idea. They never said. And I believe by the third interview, this whole Adnan called Jen's house to let Jay know he was leaving school, that's completely disappeared. It's not even in the scenario anymore. Yeah, it's interesting. So

if that's the case, do you think that's because Jay's covering his tracks because he's doing this whole thing by himself? Or is Adnan still involved? That's a tough one. I think he's lying. I think he was lying to make his story fit with the cell phone records. I think that was the most important thing to him. He may have been under the impression,

maybe from the police, this is like the physical evidence we have. This is basically the footprints of where you were that day. But it's also going to give us an indication of when you and Adnan communicated. So it's very important that everything sort of line up with this. They may have given him that indication.

So he was just trying to make things fit. And I'm sure at the end of that interview, the police were like, all right, we're not going to talk about that call to Jen's house anymore. All right. Because that couldn't have possibly happened. And it just drops from from the story after that. Yeah. And it could also be something along the lines of where the cops are saying, like, while they're interviewing him, well, what about this other call to Jen's house? Who made that call?

And they're bringing it up to him, which you don't necessarily want to do because now you're giving them information. But when they're asking you a question and you're trying to be believable, the last thing you want to say is, I don't know. You know, you don't want to say that because then it's like, well, what else are you lying about? So when they ask him like, hey, they have the paperwork in front of them. They're not showing him. And they're like, well, what about this call that happened at so-and-so time? Where were you with that? What's up with that? Oh, yeah. You know what? Now that you say it, that was a call from Adnan. He called the house. He called Jen's house. That's what it was. My bad. I forgot about that one. And so they're leading him, which is also wrong. And you could make the argument they're leading him because they have this nefarious intention to try to manipulate the

story. Or it could be just bad police work where the interviewer who's interviewing him is committing mistakes that are taught to you when you're learning about interviews and interrogations things you shouldn't do you never want to volunteer facts of the case because then you can't confirm whether it's actually information they're aware of or information they're just picking up as you're running your mouth so that's a big difference you know they may have considered this like the follow-up interview because they'd already interviewed him at length on the 28th during which they didn't talk about the cell phone records so now they're talking to him again two weeks later diving into the details yeah dotting their eyes crossing their t's trying to make everything gel up and now they're maybe going through the call logs one by one like oh and who

made this call and who is this incoming call and do you remember getting call at this time and so he's just trying to answer because like you said he doesn't want to say i don't know i don't remember he doesn't want them to start looking at him like suspiciously even though they definitely should have been but i definitely think that call to jen's house never happened but what did happen is jay who was in possession of a non-cell phone at this time called jen's house which means he wasn't there at Jen's house, which means they're both lying about Jay being at Jen's house. And I mean, they're both Jen and Jay, allegedly. OK, allegedly they're lying. He may have just been sitting at Jen's house and like, let me just call you on the cell phone really quick. Who knows?

But it also could be Jay wanted to try and remove Jen from the situation as much as possible, where this could have been. Who knows why they were doing it? But maybe Jen knows more about this than they want us to believe. You know, she might have been more based on what he's saying. She did no more. So how much involvement was? Yeah, that's up for that. We still don't know to this day.

We're not i know jen from what i understand did the hbo docu-series and stuff and she's never been someone who anybody believed she was an actual contributor to hayman lee's death at least nothing has been said but ignorance and and the not you know if somebody comes to you and says hey so-and-so is going to kill someone you do have an ethical responsibility to report it and And so that, and depending on how you look at that, that might be something Jen doesn't want people, you know, viewing her through that lens of, we wouldn't be sitting here today if you had just done what was right and reported it to your parents or to the police, he may still be here. So Jen's involvement to me is a wild card. And I think it's something we're probably never going to know. What I think is indisputable, at least in my opinion, is Jay was not at Jen's house

at this time period that he said he was. And I think that's going to be proved when we talk about these three incoming calls in a minute, which Jay claims he received while he was at Jen's house. But let's take a quick break our last break before we dive into that all right so let's look at those three incoming calls which j claims were at non and then the call to jen's house which was made from adnan's cell phone which was in the possession of jay wilds so the three incoming calls they come in when the phone is at different locations each time, which means Jay was on the move, not at Jen's house. When Adnan's cell phone received the incoming call at 12.43 p.m., it pinged off tower L652A. Now this is in the area where Jay told police in his first interview that he'd met Adnan initially, and Adnan

had popped the trunk of Hay's car and shown Jay her body. It's not really close to Jen's house at all. Next incoming call is at 2.36 p.m. That pings off of Tower L651B. Now, cell towers have three sides, an A side, a B side, and a C side. That's why the tower numbers have a letter after them. The A side of the tower usually is pointing north or northwest, the B side is usually pointing south or southeast, and the C side points west. That puts tower L651B pointing southeast, which is in the vicinity of the highway, so it looks as if Jay was driving at this point. Now, what I have a problem with is on her blog, View From L2, Susan Simpson, who's a lawyer and a host of the Undisclosed podcast, she interprets this tower differently. She interprets this tower as meaning that Jay was in the vicinity of Woodlawn High School, and she says this puts him at the last place that Hay was seen alive before she was killed. But as I understand it, given the cell phone tower locations and their different sides, that wouldn't be the case at all. If the tower

pinged L651A, that would be an area that not only included Woodlawn High School, but the Best Buy, where allegedly Hay's car and her body was. And you could argue that Jay was headed in that direction towards Woodlawn, but you could also argue that he was headed towards the Best Buy, where Adnan and Hayes' body allegedly were. So the fact of the matter is because it kind of like the B is pointing like southeast, it's not pointing upwards north, which is where Woodlawn and Best Buy were. I don't know how Susan Simpson can say that this puts Jay in the vicinity of Woodlawn High School because he could have been driving just down the highway at this point. He could have been in the vicinity of many different buildings. And I mean, he was at that point. He was clearly like driving.

Yeah, I think I think it is a misconception by a lot of people who listen to true crime or just watch true crime shows where they look at cell phone towers as if you're looking at like a map down at it where the maps below you and you're looking down at these towers are kind of like a sphere where one person or multiple people who access that tower regardless of where you are it's kind of a circle over the top of it where if you're in that umbrella, it's just one tower. But if you look at cell phone towers, it's more like a pie, which we were talking about off camera, where it's directional. And depending on where you are based on that tower, it will access a different panel.

I'll call it for this terms where you're using a different panel to transmit that call to and from your phone. So it's not one panel for the whole tower. And that's how we in the past doing investigations have had digital experts like Derek Ellington from Ellington Forensics who explained this to me exactly. of the cases I worked involved something where there was an alleged suspect who was traveling in the general vicinity of our victim. And sure enough, we were able to minimize the other potential areas he could have been by using the specific panels that his phone was bouncing off of. Because just like this case, if it was one sphere, yeah, it could be a ton of different people that we were considering but because of the direction of which the call was bouncing off that tower if you will

it minimized the amount of pool people in our pool that we were pulling from so i agree with you 100 on this this isn't really up for debate this is something anyone can go check i don't know where they're coming from they might have an argument for it and we implore them to respond to this if they want to. They don't want, obviously they probably won't, but it's one of those things where I did reach out to Derek Ellington as well and he talked about it a little bit. So yeah, this is a hundred percent the way these towers work. And I would even say now it's not just ABC. I think there's even more panels now. So it's like ABCDEF because obviously a lot more cell phones, they need more panels. So this is something to consider

when we're talking about towers and trying to prove or discredit certain testimonies or beliefs about what the cell phone data represents. I think it comes down to what side are you on? And really, in a situation like this, you shouldn't be on a side. You should be on the side of finding the truth. However, we have to understand humans are human. They have biases, they have relationships, and they also, you know, they have things that they believe based on their lived experiences. So what you have here is one data point that can be looked at differently, you know, based on what you believe. So the team at Undisclosed, they're looking at the cell phone tower like, oh, L651 is, you know, the tower that's by Woodlawn High School. And that's true,

but it's not the direction that it was pointing at. So if you were against Adnan, you could say, hey, this is Jay driving to Best Buy to meet Adnan because Adnan called him. If you were for Adnan, you could say, hey, this is Jay driving to Woodlawn High School to snatch hay and murder her. You know, depending on which camp you're in, which side you're on,

you can look at this one data point and this one piece of evidence and interpret it differently. But in my opinion, it's not up for interpretation. It's just this is what it is. It doesn't show anything besides he was traveling, he was moving, and he wasn't at Jen's house. That's the only thing that it without a doubt shows. I agree. And I'll even go further, and this isn't a knock on us or anybody else. The reality is, I believe you said her name was Susan, right? Susan. Yeah. I mean, she's not, she's a lawyer. She's not an expert in digital forensics. Neither are you. Neither am I. We're interpreting it all different ways, but the reality is there are people way smarter and do this every single day,

specifically this type of stuff and are going to be able to shed more light on it so take what we say come up to your own analysis maybe do your own research and see if you think Stephanie's right or and that I'm right this is what we believe we believe that when you're gonna start using the cell phone tower data you have to consider the panel that's being utilized by the person whether it's a witness whether it's a potential suspect whether it's the victim it's not as just vague as it's that tower. So anywhere around it is in play. That's not our belief. She's pointed it out. Other people believe differently. So I think we have more to talk about with this specific situation. And it might shed some more light for you because I believe you

told me earlier, there are some experts that weighed in on this, correct? Yes. Okay. We're not going to talk about that just yet, though. There is an FBI agent who has an expertise in this, who weighs in on this, and we're going to go over it in detail. So we'll get there, but he is of the same belief as you. Well, I mean, it's not even the same belief as me. It was made to seem like all of the cell phone data was just garbage. That's how it kind of felt like after the first trial where, oh, that shouldn't even been used in the trial. It wasn't accurate. It doesn't mean anything. It's not what you think it is. So basically,

throw that all out. And in that situation, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater because there are things to learn from the cell phone data. This data isn't just pulled out of thin air. It's not made up. It comes from somewhere. Yes, you can't pinpoint exactly where a person was when the call was made, but you can pinpoint an area. You can tell if someone's moving. You can tell that Jay's lying and he wasn't at Jen's when these calls came in. You can tell things from this cell phone data and you shouldn't just throw it all out. And the FBI agent basically said the same thing. And he said this in 2016. So I think it was around the time of Adnan's second trial where he said, I don't know what this cell phone expert from after the first trial is talking about.

Like this cell phone data is accurate and usable for what it's being used for. It doesn't give exact data, but we never claimed it did sort of. It's just like a sort of sketch of what was happening that day. Interesting stuff. Yeah, we'll get to it more. It's fascinating. I love this stuff. I've told you this numerous times, and I feel like when you can, you can't really trust anybody these days. And so when you think about all these witnesses, even Jan or whatever, they all might have an incentive to say things or leave things out, but digital forensics, DNA trace evidence, they're not rooting for anybody. They're just there to tell you the truth. And if you can interpret the information that you have,

it is the most solid. That's why courts recognize it the most because it's impartial. It's objective. It's only there to tell you what it, what it is, and it's up for us to interpret it. And as you mentioned, which I think is a great thing to say, even though that type of evidence is purely objective, it's black and white, you still have people who will interpret it their own way to fit whatever narrative they have. And that's our justice system, folks. That's just how it is. We don't make the rules. But they could see one thing and say, Oh, you think that's green? Well, I think it's an ocean blue or ocean blue or whatever. And it's a, it's a subjective, which it shouldn't be, but that's why this type of evidence is extremely valuable.

And we shouldn't, as Stephanie said, we shouldn't just throw it out. Yeah. And that's fine. I mean, if you had like surveillance footage to accompany the cell phone data, that would be great. If you had like traffic cams, stuff like that, you know, surveillance footage from stores, things like that. You know, like, for instance, Jay's at the mall with Adnan on the morning of the 13th. Do we have like surveillance footage from the mall? Like, do we have stuff like that to prove these things? It just doesn't feel like there's anything like that. But this gives this cell phone data gives us a framework on which to build upon understanding that it's not the muscle and the skin. It's just the bones. But the bones are better than than having muscle and skin without bones, you know, because then you can't stand up. I don't know. It's just, you know, I'm with you, girl. I'm with you. You need bones. You need the bones, man. You can't just throw it out because like a couple incoming calls may not be, you know, 100 million percent accurate. It's still more accurate than knowing zero. Anyways,

the next incoming call happened at 315 p.m. and it pinged tower L651C. So the same tower as before, but the different side, you side. That side would actually cover the area of Adnan's house because the C side of the tower should be west of the tower. And the best buy would have been northwest of the tower and Woodlawn High School would have been north of that tower. So then the 321 PM call to Jen's house comes from the location of that same tower. So Jay claims he leaves Jen's at 3.40 and he gets a call as he's driving, which is Adnan saying, hey, he's dead and come to Best Buy. Let's go back to the cell phone records and see which call that might have been. And that's when we find that there is no other incoming call. There is no other incoming call after 3.40 p.m., not until 4.27 p.m., which

doesn't work with Jay's version of events. Jay would and should have been technically at Best Buy by 3.45, 3.50 at the latest. And Jay said that this is where Adnan popped the trunk for the first time and showed him Hay's body. Remember before it was like in like a bad part of town, a sketchy part of town, what do you call it, a strip or something where people sell drugs. But now it's happening at Best Buy. Then Adnan started going through Hay's car and taking stuff out. Jay said Adnan took out a black backpack with a brown leather bottom, Hay's keys and her wallet. But I find this interesting because as we know, Hay's book bag was found in her car because we went over that at the beginning of this episode.

And the book bag was dark blue with a brown like kind of leather bottom. So it's still very accurate to how Jay described it. Did Jay see this book bag with Adnan? Did he see it in her car? Did Jay see Hay with the book bag at some point? Did Hay use that book bag the previous year when they'd gone to school together? He had to have seen the book bag at some point. He described it as black with a brown bottom and it was dark blue with a brown bottom. But I suppose if you looked at it from a distance, you might think it was black. So I still think he described this book

bag pretty accurately, although it doesn't appear that Adnan did remove it from the car because it was found in Hay's car. Well, couldn't it also be another backpack? Because of those backpacks, I remember them like the bags with the leather bottoms. I don't know what brand it was. It was L.O. Bean or something like that. Jansport maybe? Jansport maybe. Yeah, that was a very common like cool backpack. Yeah. And they have them in black, blue, purple, green, brown, whatever color you want. They made it. So could they be a similar bag because it's such a popular brand? Yeah, of course. That's an option as well.

So she had two book bags? Or could Adnan have thrown that backpack in there when he had gotten into the car with her and took it back out with him because it was his bag? Maybe. Maybe. You know what I mean? He gets in the car with her because he's got his backpack on, throws it in the back seat seat and takes her items into his bag because he's going to dispose of it later. Yeah, that could be. I mean, even though Jay said he saw him throw it into the dumpster, so maybe Jay just didn't see what he threw in the dumpster and he just assumed he threw the, but then he came back to the car and

he didn't have a book bag. So no, Jay's definitely making it seem like this is Hay's book bag and her keys and her wallet and Adnan is disposing of these things in a dumpster. Well, you know that ain't true because like you just said, bags in there and there was no, and by the way, the bag was in there, but there were no keys. No keys, no pager. Yeah. Yeah. So Jay said they left Best Buy and they drove to Forest Park and on the way, Jay placed a call to a friend of his to see if he had weed. Jay said his friend's name was Patrick, and on the cell phone records, we do have a call to Patrick at 3.59 p.m.,

which does match up with the timeline, even though many of the previous calls do not. So the Patrick call pings off of Tower L651A, which is the area that covers Woodlawn High School, and it's east of the Best Buy. And Forest Park also happens to be east of that Best Buy as well. So the story does make sense if Jay's leaving Best Buy and driving to Forest Park that the cell phone would ping at Tower L651A as he's driving from Best Buy to Forest Park and he calls Patrick. So that actually does work. But before the Patrick call and after the call to Jen's house, we have a few other calls to discuss. Keep in mind that throughout all of this, Adnan claims he was at school. His version

of the events that happened on January 13th never changed, but they're also very, very vague. Adnan said he drove to school that morning. He was in photography class from 7.45 a.m. to 9.15 a.m. He had English class from 9.15 a.m. to 10.40 a.m. He had English class from 915 a.m. to 1040 a.m. This was the class where he put a stuffed reindeer on Stephanie's desk. Then Adnan said he called Jay at 1045 a.m. and offered to lend him his car. Lunch period started at 1045 a.m. Adnan said Jay dropped him back off at school by 1130 a.m. And Adnan also said he never went shopping with Jay at all. Now, Jay claims that while they were at the mall that day, Adnan may have bought something from the food court for lunch. So did the police pull Adnan's financial records to see if he had purchased anything at

the mall that day? If Adnan had used cash, I suppose there'd be no way to tell if he purchased food at the mall. But did the police check surveillance cameras at the mall? Did Woodlawn High School not have a check-in or check-out policy or some sort of system for students who were leaving and entering the campus? Would Adnan have been able to leave school and return anytime he wanted without signing in or out? That's crazy to me. Did Adnan see anyone during his free period that went from 11.15 a.m. to 12.50 p.m.? It appears that he didn't see anyone or no one saw him. And this has always bugged me, right? Because why would Jay make up a story where Adnan is with him for the majority of the morning and most of the afternoon and evening when it could so easily be proven wrong you know jay could have gone to the police and said you know adnan was with me at this time and all it would take would be one teacher to come forward and say no adnan took a test on this day so i know he was in my class or on this day adnan talked to me about his grades and jay's story would have totally dissolved it just would take one person

who remembered seeing anon during any time that j Jay said they were together and it would have been over. He would have no way of knowing what Adnan was doing all day at school or who he was talking to. And any one of those things could have completely disproved Jay's story. Yet it's been almost impossible to find one person who can confirm absolutely that Adnan was at school at certain times when he claimed to be. Yeah, it seems like an awful big risk for someone to take if you're trying to frame someone, isn't it? You're just you're just hoping that you're going to make up this whole story and just pray that no one at school can definitively discredit what you're saying. Or he's not taking a test or handing in a paper or You know grabbing a snack with a friend anything But imagine imagine there's a moment at school where that he's with teachers talking about something or something significant that

Maybe 50 people witnessed Well, Jay, you just hung yourself out to dry now because there's 25 people at school who are saying you're wrong. But if we're to believe it again, Jay's framing Adnan. He's hoping, he's banking on the idea that during his free period, Adnan's just going to be floating around school and nobody's going to see him and be able to disprove what he's saying to police. It's a risk. During his free period and like what, the 40 minutes he was late to psychology class as well You know, what what was he doing? Nobody saw him in the halls There was no teacher who was like don what are you doing wandering around the halls classes in session get get your class right now

Nothing happened jay would be taking a huge risk to make these claims and everything hinged on these claims That his timeline was correct and not knowing who was going to come forward and prove him wrong with something substantial. Yeah. And that's a whole nother ball of wax right there is the fact that Adnan is obviously disputing what Jay's saying. But coincidentally, there's really only one thing that could have helped or hurt Adnan that day, which is being in class when he said he was there. And ironically, on that day, the teacher was taking attendance and he happens to show up 40 minutes late. We talk about being unlucky.

That's another example of the one day you wouldn't want to be late to a class. That would be it. So again, could be just a shitty set of circumstances, or it could be one of those old where there's smoke, there's fire, and though Jay's off at times, maybe a lot of what he's saying is true. Yeah. So like we said, psychology class started at 12.50 PM and Adnan didn't show up till 1.27 PM. But according to Adnan, he's done been at school since like 11.30. School let out at 2.15 p.m. And during the serial podcast, Sarah Koenig talked to Adnan while he was in prison. And she asked him, you know,

what did you do that day after 2.15 p.m.? Because this is when the prosecution claims Heyman Lee was killed, like between 2.20 and like 2.45, 3 o'clock. Something happened in this very short window. Where were you? And Adnan said, quote, well, then when school was over, I would have went to the library. I know that I usually check. Well, I didn't usually check, but if I was going to check my email, it would be using the library computer. You know, sometimes I would go there because track practice didn't start until maybe three o'clock or three thirty ish. So it didn't start right after school. So there was a period of time of almost like an hour, an hour and some change that was kind of free time, end quote.

So Adnan never told Sarah definitively that he went to the library that day. He kind of made it seem like he couldn't remember exactly what he did, but that, you know, on a day like January 13th, he would have gone to the library to kill time before track practice. Adnan then claimed he would have been at track practice from 3.30 to 4.30 or 5 p.m. Jay picked Adnan up from school between 4.30 and 5, and because it was Ramadan, Adnan said that he and Jay probably went to grab some food, and then they probably smoked some weed. By 6 p.m., Adnan claims he and Jay were at Kathy's house. Now, Kathy was a friend of Jay's and a close friend of Jen Pusateri's. We're going to talk about her very soon. And this is where Adnan claims he was

when he got a call from Officer Adcock asking about Hay. And then Adnan believes he went to pick up food for his father, which he delivered to his father at the mosque between 7 and 8 p.m., and then evening prayers were held at the mosque between 8 p.m. and 10.30 p.m., and Adnan's father testified that Adnan was at the mosque, even though we know that Adnan was making several phone calls at this time and could not have been at the mosque deep in evening prayer. So now that brings us to his hour, hour and change in the Woodlawn Public Library. There should be a way to prove he was there. And that is the crucial time where prosecutors believe Hay was snatched and killed. And Adnan is insistent when he says he did not leave the area of the school. He says he did not leave the campus before track practice

was over. Once again, a track practice that no one was able to say for sure that he was at. Well, actually, Adnan said he can only say he's 99% sure that he didn't leave the campus of Woodlawn High School because, quote, the reason I can't say 100 is because, I mean, I do kind of understand that it comes across as, I don't know if it does or doesn't, but it seems like I remember things that are beneficial to me, but things that aren't beneficial to me, I can't remember. It's just that I really don't know what to say beyond the fact that a lot of the day that I do remember,

it's bits and pieces that come from what other people have said they remember, right? And it kind of jogs my memory. Yeah, I don't know what to say, and I completely understand how that comes across. I mean, the only thing I can say is, man, it was just a normal day to me. There was absolutely nothing abnormal about that day, end quote. And people have taken issue with this statement.

And I agree, you know, the statement that he couldn't remember what happened on January 13th because January 13th was just like any other day. And there was nothing different about it that would have stuck out and caused him to remember details more specifically because in my opinion and others opinions there was some things about that day that were abnormal or different from any other day. Firstly it was his friend Stephanie's birthday. He you know gave her a present. He would have remembered that. He did remember that. He left school you know that day he left school and he left his car and his brand new cell phone in the possession of a drug dealer who he wasn't even really close friends with and he was also celebrating Ramadan which you know last time

I checked that only happens once a year so that kind of stands out as being a little bit different than any other day on top of all of, he got a call from a police officer letting him know that his ex-girlfriend and his best friend had not picked her little cousin up from school, had not shown up to her job, and had not come home. He got a call that Hayman Lee was missing and no one knew where she was. And I would say that any one of those things might distinguish January 13th from any other day. Yeah, I concur. And I would say that I wouldn't be recalling what other people said. I would be spending every second from the time that cops start to question me back when he was a young teen, not only now when I'm sure he did

this interview and gave that quote, but that day breaking down exactly step for step what I did, even if I went to the bathroom to go for 20 seconds i would have a written timeline of everything i did from the time last period ended to the time that i ended up at track practice and i would have every notation of conversations i had jokes i told to so and so or said hi to the coach because maybe it would jog their memory about seeing me. Hey, you don't remember if I was at practice, you don't remember I came over and tugged on your shorts and said that you need to get a smaller size because they were falling off. Something stupid, something trivial that may help you. Yeah. I would remember everything, especially if my freedom was at risk.

And now you can make the argument that maybe he didn't know that at the time. So he didn't take it that serious. Again, he's 17, not seven. When they start calling around for his ex-girlfriend friend, he has to know that he's someone that's going to be looked into, especially when he starts hearing about teachers asking questions about him as well. You're going to make sure that you have your eyes dotted, your T's crossed so that whatever they're thinking you could be involved in, you put the kibosh to that immediately by supporting whatever you're stating with tangible facts that you can go back and say, hey, here's where it was. This is who I spoke to. Go talk to him. So what they're saying is basically, you know, from the time Hay went missing, which was January 13th to the time that Adnan was arrested, which was over a month later on February 28th, he couldn't think back that far and specifically recall events of that day, which is fine. But what you're saying, and I completely agree with you, is right from the get, as soon as Hay went missing and then didn't show up within a few days, and then, you know, the teachers are asking questions and the police are at school. This is just a couple of days a week tops after Hay goes missing.

This is when Adnan should have been like, OK, like I need to make sure that I can account for my whereabouts on this day because they may come after me. So while it's fresh in my mind, let me make sure I have like, you know, a quick notation of what I did during this day and how I can prove that I did these things in case worst comes to worst and I'm sitting in an interrogation room in a month. Stephanie, stop me if I'm wrong, they called him that night. They did call him that night, but I don't think they asked him like, what were you doing that day? But he should have been assigned to him. Yeah. I know how I was at 17. If the police start, if I'm even on their radar as a person who might know her whereabouts, I'm going to make sure that I know my whereabouts just in case.

He's seen enough movies, TV to know when there's a very short list, the cops who don't know him from a hole in the wall are calling him by 6 p.m. to say, do you know where Hay is? So that's something where- We heard she was going to give you a ride after school. Yeah. I'm going to start being like, oh, I don't know if this is going to go anywhere. She might be just with someone, but just in case, what was my day today? So in case they call me back again, I can give them some specifics. So yeah, I agree with what you're saying there. And once again, maybe it's just an innocent kid, not looking at it from a negative perspective where it's like, why would

they ever think it was me? I didn't do anything wrong. And so he didn't go those extra steps. And it's always easy to say what you would have done in hindsight. So I'll, I'll, I'll get, I'll concede that fact, but it just, again, seems like a lot of things that could have been done differently by a lot of different people. And maybe we wouldn't be in the situation we are today. But for me to like not even know what you did after school that day at all, I don't I mean, I have a very, very good memory. People hate it because I'm always like especially you know my husband because

he's like oh i said this and i'm like no you didn't say this you said exactly this and you were standing at this place in the kitchen when you said it and you were wearing this shirt like and it doesn't matter if it's been a week or a month i will remember and that's just how i've always been so maybe i can't i would debate that really really okay oh yeah there's been a few different bloopers that haven't made this real where you said, all right, he's had this. And I was like, no, you didn't. And then our editor's like, no, Derek, she didn't say it.

What? When I heard that meow? When I heard the phantom meow? That's one thing. They don't even know about that. But yes, that's one thing where you're so good too. You'll say it. And you make me question myself where you're like, no, Derek, it was this time, this date.

And I'm like, dude, maybe she is right. And it isn't until we go back and look at the tape thank god where I'm like no she's full of shit she's wrong I'm gaslighting you is what you're saying I don't even like that phrase but you know I hate it yeah but but no you do have a good memory I give you that so I mean like when when I need to so I guess I can't remember somebody just having no concept of like what they did on a day when your best friend and ex-girlfriend vanished and never came back home. So that's I've always had trouble with that. But, you know, I do want to touch on the library thing because he said he may have been in the library. That's what he would normally do right it's what he would normally do if he was waiting and killing time between uh track practice and school and actually i don't

even know if that's what he would normally do because i've heard several variations a lot of people said hey would give him a ride home so he could change but i also found a memo from his defense team where adnan told um his his defense team, one of the clerks for his lawyer, that oftentimes after school, before track practice, and before Hay had to pick up her little cousin from her school, Hay would bring Adnan to the Best Buy parking lot in her car and they would have sex there and that became like kind of their thing their place to have sex in her car in Best Buy parking lot after school and before Hay picked up her cousin wow yeah wow wow that's significant so if I guess Ednan was gonna think about like what he usually did after school and before track practice, it would be having sex with Hay in her car in the Best Buy parking lot, not necessarily going to the library.

To be fair, he did say in this quote, you know, it does seem like a lot of the times I have the ability to remember things that benefit me and the things that don't, I don't remember. That's his words, not mine. Yeah. How is that to be fair? Well, to be fair to him, he wouldn't remember. That's his words, not mine. Yeah. How is that to be fair? Well, to be fair to him, he doesn't, he wouldn't remember that because that would be incriminating. I see. I see. Yeah. So he, he's not going to remember something that would put him in the area where allegedly he showed his co-conspirator of the body. It's crazy. I mean, once again, this is not something, this like little notation in this this law clerk document.

It doesn't get talked about a lot, but it is there. Why doesn't why wouldn't this get talked about a lot? Are you being sarcastic or facetious? I'm saying why wouldn't this get talked about a lot? I haven't heard about this at all. It doesn't necessarily fit the popular narrative, honestly. OK. All right. Well, we're talking about here. Listen, let's talk about the library for a minute because. Let's talk about the library.

You'd think this is a library. This is the public library. So it's not affiliated with the school, but it's directly across the street from the school. So obviously kids are always going over there to get books. And like, once again, I have a problem with this high school, just letting people come and go willy nilly. How is there any safety here? These students, there's no sign of a non-checking back into school after Jay drops him back off. He just seems to go and leave the school and then come back whenever he wants. OK, so they leave. They go to the library all the time. It's right across the street. There were surveillance cameras in the library, but they would get reset every week.

So basically there was a Monday tape and a Tuesday tape and a Wednesday tape. And then every day they would put that tape in. But then the next Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, they would put that same tape back in and it would, you know, get recorded over from the previous week. So technically, even if the police had grabbed those tapes as soon as Adnan was a suspect or, you know, as soon as they had his alibi that he was in the library, which I don't even think he told them that until he was arrested. It would have been too late. Now, there was a sign-in sheet to use the computers, you know, and Adnan said he believes he would have been there using the computer to check his email, but it was just a sheet

of paper that would get tossed out at the end of the night. And we can't really get into it right now because I want to move on with Jay's second interview, but next week we are going to dig into the Asia McLean alibi. Asia was the girl who claims she saw Adnan at the library on January 13th. But believe it or not, it's not as straightforward as it may seem. So we're going to talk about that. But according to Adnan's versions of events, he was not with Jay until 4.30 or 5 p.m. And if you look at his cell phone records that day, we might believe, we might actually believe that was the case, right?

Because most of these calls that were being made on the cell phone were being made to people that Jay knew. Jen Pusateri's being called a lot. Patrick, the drug dealer, who was a friend of Jay's. Patrick didn't even know Adnan. Phil, once again, friend of Jay's, didn't know Adnan. But then we see a call at 3.32 p.m., a call that lasted two minutes and 22 seconds,

and it was placed to a girl named Nisha. Nisha was a high school student in Silver Spring, Maryland, who Adnan met at a New Year's Eve party just a few weeks prior to the disappearance of Hayman Lee. They had hung out, they exchanged numbers, they danced, and they'd been talking over the phone for the past couple weeks getting to know each other. We can see that Nisha's the first person Adnan called when he got his new phone on the 12th, and he called her several more times that night and several times the next day, including that 3.32 p.m. call. But this call probably looks more worse for Adnan than anything else because at 3.32, Adnan claims he was at Woodlawn High School at the library waiting for

track practice to start. So why is Jay Wilds, a kid who doesn't know Nisha, who's never met her or spoken to her, calling Nisha and talking to her for over two minutes. This call puts Adnan and his cell phone together at a time when he claimed he was absolutely not with his cell phone. He was at school. He wasn't with Jay yet. This call puts him at a place and a time where Hay's body would have been being buried at Leakin Park. So it's like a very bad look. And the police did ask Jay about this call. And Jay claimed that when the call happened, he and Adnan were in the car together. Adnan called Nisha and then handed the phone to Jay so that Jay could say hello. And then I remembered that interview with Adnan's brother. Remember the

one I talked about last episode? And I remembered he was talking about Nisha so I went back to it really quick and he did in fact mention Nisha he said that she went to high school in Kensington she was going to George Mason University in the fall and Nisha had told him that she'd talked to Adnan that day around 3 30 p.m. So during Adnan's first trial, Nisha testified and she was asked by Adnan's attorney, Cristina Gutierrez, if she could remember a time that Adnan had called her and then put a person named Jay on the phone. Nisha said, quote, it's a little hard to recall, but I remember him telling me that Jay invited him over to a video store that he worked at. And he basically, well, Adnan walked in with the cell phone and then he said, like, he told me to speak with Jay. And I was like, okay, because Jay wanted

to say hi. So I said hi to Jay. And that's all I can really recall. End quote. Nisha said she recognized Adnan's voice on the phone. The call lasted only a couple of minutes and she thought the time of the day was towards the evening. She said she couldn't remember the exact day, but she knew it had to have been sometime in January. Now, the only problem with that is that Jay didn't work at that adult video store on January 13th. It seems he was actually unemployed on this date.

He would start at the video store, I think it was like the next week, but it was towards the end of January. And supporters of Adnan claimed that this call must have been a butt dial, that Nisha was on speed dial, which she was, and Jay accidentally hit the button, which called her. But for this to be true, a lot of other things would have to be true.

That would mean that no one else was at home at Nisha's house because the phone would have had to have rung for over two minutes because according to Nisha, she did not have an answering machine or a voicemail. And it kind of made it seem like this was a private number for her, like maybe there was two phones in her house and one was for like the main house and this phone was mainly just for her that her friends would call her on. Now there's a lot of theories about this and Rabia Chaudhry posited the theory that Nisha could have had voicemail, which was newer technology in 1999, but she just didn't know that she had voicemail. So whoever called her that day

at 3.30 just left a very long voicemail message that was basically sent to the void when no one checked it. I don't really know how accurate that is considering that at this time voicemail would have been an additional charge to your phone bill. So it was something you'd have to like agree to, you know, sign paperwork and you would have seen it on your bill. So I feel like Nisha or her parents would have known whether or not she had voicemail at this point. Another Rabia theory is that someone was home at Nisha's and they picked up the phone and just listened in silence for two minutes trying to figure out who was calling. But I don't know how accurate that is either because for me, I feel like two minutes is a long time to just sit there and listen to butt dial noises. And

wouldn't someone at Nisha's house have remembered that and said something when the topic of this call came up and Nisha, their daughter, is going to court to testify about it. Rabia has also suggested that the phone just rang for over two minutes. But I did look into this, and as far as I can tell, if one cell phone is calling another, you could get charged for that call if it just rings and no one answers. But if a cell phone is calling a landline, which was the case here, there should be no charge unless the call connects, meaning either a person answers or a voicemail or answering machine picks up. And for that call to have shown up on Adnan's bill and for him to be charged for it, it does mean that it connected. So another theory states that Jay called Nisha as a way to set up Adnan and make it look like he was with him.

But Nisha did say she talked to Adnan first. She recognized Adnan's voice. And then an interesting theory states that the call was made by Adnan because he called Nisha a lot, so he did it accidentally, and then later he realized that it looked bad for him and it kind of like killed his whole alibi of being at school. So on February 14th, the following month, Adnan actually did pay a visit to Jay while Jay was working at this adult video store. And Adnan did get Nisha on the phone and told her Jay wanted to say hello and then put Nisha

on the phone with Jay so that when Nisha was testifying about this, she would remember that phone call and think it was the January 13th call, if that makes sense. When the police initially spoke to Nisha, they didn't ask her about the specific call on January 13th. They didn't say to her like, oh, when Adnan called you on January 13th, what did you talk about? They simply asked her, hey, did you ever talk to Adnan? And did he ever put his friend Jay on the phone? So this theory does actually make sense that she may have been confusing the two calls because the police asked her specifically about a call where Jay had been put on the phone. And so she would have remembered that February 14th call, which Jay did confirm happened as well.

So what do you think about this? I mean, that's a lot. That's a lot to take in. It all depends on how much you, I would have to be sitting there listening to Nisha at court and how convincing she was that the call that she was remembering happened in January and not a month later in February. You know what I mean? So that's, that's something where how, how convincing was she at court where she said, no, I remember a call in January where he called me and put Jay on the phone, or was she really apprehensive and decisive about when she heard the call, when it happened. But I do think think and i know i sound like a broken record tonight it just seems like a lot of things that happened around the day that this is the day in question

and there's always an excuse there's always a reasoning for it it's not just one thing there's all these different things that can be explained away and we have this guy jay who we're not supposed to believe and yet he's saying things to investigators that make sense with a lot of the call logs for that day. So it's tough. I'd be a fool to sit here and say it's impossible that this can all be explained away. But there was also another thing, not to kind of curve away from this. I got a DM from someone.

And don't make this a habit of DM me. I don't check all my DMS, but she was saying to me, Hey, Derek, just be aware too, that there, there is a belief that Adnan didn't give Jay his phone that day. He had just kind of forgot it in the, in the glove box of the car. So in, in, in just to respond to that, if that were the case, I don't know if Jay would have been making all these phone calls on his cell phone if he didn't have his permission. So that doesn't really make sense to me either for the person who DM'd me about it. I'm pretty sure Adnan admitted that he gave Jay his phone so that he could call Jay and let him know when to pick him up after track practice. I agree. I agree. And like I said, if you guys hit me with a million DMs, I'm not going to respond to every one.

But I did respond to her and say, oh, good to know. Thanks. And you know what I mean? I'm listening to you tonight. Talk about specifically about the calls. It doesn't seem like who she is. He doesn't even know who she is. And she remembered speaking to Adnan. And what the problem is, is like, it's not like it's an 18 second call where you could have said, oh, this is a butt dial or, you know, no one picked up and no conversation happened. It looks as if a conversation happened. I can't imagine why the phone would connect for that long when there was no voicemail or answering machine attached to the phone. Why it would connect for that long when there was no voicemail or answering machine attached to the phone why it would connect for that long so it does appear some sort of conversation happened and the only person who would have any reason to call nisha would be adnan which puts him with jay and the cell phone at 3 30 which completely destroys his statement that he was at school this whole time yeah i i agree it's terrible doesn't look for him. And I would go even a little further just to say if there was, if this theory that it was a butt dial, because we know that call

happened. Like you said, there was a two minute call made on that day at that time. No doubt about it. So yeah, if you're going with the idea that Jay was in the possession of the phone, there was a previous call the day before made by Adnan to Nisha. So Jay's in the car without Adnan because Adnan's at school andail hearing this butt dial and i don't think they wouldn't i don't believe they wouldn't remember distinctly hearing two voices adnan and jay's voice so i feel like they would follow up on that to say hey did you ever have a voicemail on your phone at home that from adnan that was a butt dial and nisha would go oh yeah actually you know what i did no she said she doesn't she doesn't have voicemail she didn't have voicemail she didn't have an answering machine she didn't that's what i'm saying she would remember that or if the parents had it or whatever someone would remember it or like you just said there would be a record of having that voicemail service yeah so i'm not going to beat

around the bush here i believe that call happened i believe that call happened i'm just gonna i i don't, Occam's razor, right? Simple explanations, usually the right one. I know sometimes things aren't always how they appear, but based on the fact that Nisha was someone known that wasn't even at the school where Adnan went to school, wasn't someone that frequented his circle where Jay would have ran into her. And she says this in the trial. She said, no, I never spoke to Jay before that day. I've never met him. Adnan's never even talked about him. It was literally like just this person Jay suddenly existed. And Adnan was like, here, talk to my friend Jay, which seems odd, right? Like that seems odd in general to even do that. Like, why would you do

that? She doesn't know Jay from Adam. And you're suddenly like shoving this girl that you have just met two weeks ago. And you're kind of like trying to mack it too. And you're suddenly like shoving this girl that you have just met two weeks ago. And you're kind of like trying to Mac it too. And you're trying to get close to, and you're like, here, talk to my friend J for like absolutely no reason. It does almost seem like this is like building an alibi of some kind. I just. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it could be, it could be because it is stupid why you would call someone after murdering your, your ex-girlfriend. But if you're, if your motive or if your meaning behind it is to, like you said, have her come down later and say, he couldn't have done it. He was calling me with his buddy, Jay. They definitely weren't involved. So that would make sense. But on the

surface, from what you've explained- And it did seem like his legal team for the first six months were kind of looking, because they were talking about it in their notes. You can see they were talking about that call to Nisha. and they were almost looking at it as like and like it was good for him, like it was an alibi of some sort. And then I think once the prosecution like posed to them their timeline, the defense was like, oh, this isn't an alibi. This actually puts Adnan in a place where he claims he wasn't. And then suddenly the Nisha call was like dropped from the defenses notes and stuff. So yeah. Yeah. No, they, when they, when they realize that their client has said, I never

left the school while they're not going to support something that shows him leaving the school. Cause now just like everybody else we've spoken about, it brings into question everything they've said. And so for me, what you've explained here with the phone calls, who they're calling, when they're calling, nobody really having any memory of Adnan being at the school other than Aisha who we're going to get into. And that being somewhat weak from what I've read as well. if is that a situation where it's because adnan's guilty and he's trying to hide it is it something where adnan did leave for a little bit and made up with jay and at the time when he was talking to police he lied about it because he thought it was going to make him look guilty in reality jay was just picking him up to strengthen his his uh his the mo his framing of adnan i mean it's i know it sounds crazy but that's where that's the territory we're in right now. Did Jay pick them up to put Adnan in the area where this all happened? And then Adnan trying not to implicate himself, lied about that, the fact that he left school,

making it worse for himself. Yeah, I guess. But if I'm just to- Yeah, Jay doesn't seem that smart to me. Like, not that he's not smart. I don't mean like he's not that smart. I mean, he doesn't seem smart enough to like have that kind of stuff planning yeah that's some deep listen if you want to frame someone right in this particular case you go do what you got to do you get the car back and you let the police put it together you don't add all these different layers that could not work out the way you planned and ruin the whole thing. You want to add as little amount of details to it that can be cross-referenced and contradict what you want them to believe.

So the butt dial, which could be accidental, calling from his phone multiple times per day, calling your friend Jen on the phone, all these different things would hurt the framing. You do it, you get back, you drop the car off, you go home, you smoke a blunt and you let the chips fall where they may. You don't keep ingraining yourself into it. So dude, you're right. He was, if he went into that hole, if Jay did this and he went into it with the intention to frame Adnan, it would have been one of those keep it simple, stupid moments. You know, like, why are you calling all these people? And why are you, you know, driving around?

And why are you making a paper trail, like a digital paper trail of where you are and what you're doing when you could just get in, get out, and then, like you said, wait for the police to find the evidence and put two and two together themselves. Yeah. But we'll cover the other angles. We'll cover the other angles. We'll give you the devil's advocate possibility here as far as there's someone who possibly saw him at the library, which would contradict this phone call and him being there. There's still a lot more to go. I've, like I said, scratched the surface a little bit. I know Stephanie has a lot more. There's more parts here. So we're hoping that you're getting a lot out of this. We're not trying to stretch this out.

In fact, I'll be the first to tell you it's now one o'clock in the morning where we are. Last week was one of the longest episodes we've ever produced. This episode is going to beat that by a lot, but this is going to be a long episode. And so we hope you're getting a lot out of it. It all seems like substance to us. I'm trying to keep the opinions limited so Stephanie can get through it. And even with doing that, it's still three hours. But overall, Stephanie and I were saying it before we started. We're absolutely fascinated by this case because there are so many things about it that one

second you're thinking one thing and then the next you're like, well, wait a second. That kind of goes in the face of what I just thought and now you're arguing with yourself and so it's a fascinating case it sucks that we're talking about it when you have this young woman who is killed by someone who's an absolute monster and yet there's so many layers to it where you might actually have two victims in this case which is what makes it unique so we really got to do our due diligence and make sure that we're covering it the way we want to cover it because this goes into our catalog and it's going to be there forever and we want to look back and say you know what we did it the best we could we covered we didn't skip things

we didn't cut it short because of time and this is probably going to be our longest series ever, both time-wise and episodically. So yeah, I hope you guys are getting a lot out of it because we are. I know I am. Yeah, this is crazy. All right, let's wrap it up and go to bed. We'll be back next week. Thank you guys. Don't forget to follow us on social media.

Check Criminal Coffee Company out. And until then... Stay safe. Stay safe out there and don't butt dial anybody, folks. Don't do it. Have a good night. Bye.