Crime Weekly - S3 Ep119: West Memphis Three: The Right to Remain Silent (Part 5)

Episode Date: April 7, 2023

West Memphis, Arkansas is located in Crittenden County and is directly across the Mississippi River from Memphis Tennessee, but in 1993, West Memphis and Memphis were worlds apart. Memphis boasted a healthy and growing population of over 620 thousand, while West Memphis had just over 28 thousand residents. But Memphis, TN struggled with high crime rates, with 1993 setting a record for the most homicides in one year, a record that wasn’t broken until 2016. West Memphis Arkansas had a more small town, laid back feel, and as cliche as it sounds, people felt safe leaving their doors unlocked and letting their young children play outside all day with no supervision. That was until May 5th, 1993, when three eight year old boys rode away on their bikes, eager to expel the energy they had built up all day while sitting in their second grade classrooms at Weaver Elementary School, but they never came home. It wouldn’t be long before the residents of West Memphis and then the world found out what happened to Stevie Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Byers. Their battered and mutilated bodies were found the next day in a swampy wooded area known to locals as Robin Hood Hills, and the community of West Memphis felt a shockwave hit their community that they would not recover from for some time. Within a month three teenagers were arrested and charged with capital murder, and it wasn’t long before whispers of witchcraft, devil worship and occult killings rippled throught the homes and businesses of West Memphis, and those whispers eventually turned into a loud roar, a roar that might accompany an angry mob looking for someone to blame for an unimaginable tragedy, akin to the infamous witch hunts that are dotted throughout history. This is the story of six boys from West Memphis, Arkansas; three were brutally murdered and stolen from this world far before their time, the other three were marched to the proverbial gallows, guilty in the court of public opinion, and found guilty in an actual court of law. Six lives destroyed, six lives forever changed, six lives eternally tied together. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. Vessi Click the vessi.com/CRIMEWEEKLY and use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 15% off your entire order! Free shipping to CA, US, AU,JP, TW, KR, SGP 2. BetterHelp Visit BetterHelp.com/crimeweekly today to get 10% off your first month. 3. Helix Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders including the Helix Kids mattress AND two free pillows for our listeners! Go to HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly. 4. Prose Custom, made-to-order haircare from Prose has your name all over it. Take your FREE in-depth hair consultation and get 15% off your first order today! Go to Prose.com/crimeweekly. 5. Alo Moves For a limited time, Alo Moves is offering my listeners, a free 30-day trial PLUS – get this - 50% off an annual membership. But you can only get it by going to ALOMOVES.com and use code CRIMEWEEKLY in all caps. 

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. Okay, so today we're diving into part five of the West Memphis Three case. And I think, should we just dive in? Cause we have a lot to cover today. Yeah. We just, uh, we just covered a crime weekly news. We talked to that. What was it? A long one tonight covered the ad non-sighted updates. So like 40 minutes, man. Yeah. So if you haven't watched that, make sure you check it out, but yeah, let's get right into it. Oh, you know what? I'm sorry. Let me stop that. This is a big moment actually. And I usually save it

for the end. Positive note, everybody stuck to my word. If you've been watching Crime Weekly News, you can see Stephanie is rocking the Crime Weekly merch, the Criminal Coffee merch, I should say. If you guys have ordered it, make sure that you're posting it online. Make sure you're tagging Drink Criminal Coffee on Instagram. We want to hear your thoughts on it. We really took a lot of time with the materials, with the styles, the actual screen printing. We tried to go high end on all of it.

So we want your feedback. That's the gratification we get out of it. So make sure you're posting it. And like I said, man of my word, Stephanie has her merch. It didn't come on Wednesday, but. That is true. I said by the next episode, though. I was like, he said definitely Wednesday and like it's Friday.

And I texted you and I'm like, just so you know, it's Friday afternoon and it's not here. I was not happy when I saw your kids posting with it. It was such a relief for me. It was such a moment. I was so happy. And I know I said on crime weekly news, but I bought the t-shirt and every size, well, not every size, but every color.

And then one medium and one small, and I'm gonna take the smalls and make them into crop tops for the summer. So I'm really excited about that because I love a good crop top. Love it. Love it. Keep pushing it. We hope you guys enjoyed it. We hope you guys like it. If you haven't already got it, go over and check it out. That's all we got. That's all my one little plug for the night. I'm good. I'm shutting up now. All right. So I'm going to sort of like go back a little bit so that we can catch up because I know it's been a week for everybody. So in late May and early June of 1993, a mother, Vicki Hutchinson, and her eight-year-old son, Aaron, spoke to the police

and told them stories about teenage witches meeting in the forest and men dressed in black who painted their faces and hunted household pets. The colorful retellings of Vicki and Aaron Hutchison would eventually lead to the arrest of 17-year-old Jesse Miskelley Jr. And the West Memphis, Arkansas police will tell you that what Jesse revealed to them led them to the arrest of his two friends, 16-year-old Jason Baldwin and 18-year-old Damian Echols. But the truth is, the police were going to arrest all three teenagers regardless. Definitely Damian. Like, Damian was already on their radar for a long time, long before they talked to Jesse, Ms. Kelly Jr. They just needed to sniff out the weakest link first. And, you know, although Jason Baldwin, I guess, was the youngest

in terms of age, Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. was the youngest in terms of his mental and intellectual capacities. And I think they definitely kind of took advantage of that, knowing he would be easier to sort of convince certain things, or at least maybe they I don't want to think that they went into this nefariously because I used to think that the police were more nefarious in this case than they were. I'm starting to believe that Vicki Hutchinson was kind of like the driving force behind all of this. And the police were just gullible. And they were like, well, we already think there's like witches and Satanists running around here. Vicki's telling us it's true.

We believe this. But I definitely think they thought that Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. would be easier to break in an interrogation. Yeah. And listen, I'm never one to sit here and pretend like I'm the icon or the pillar or the person you should be looking at when it comes to the face of law enforcement. But I've done things that I'm sure some of you, even though they're policy wise and legally correct that you may not agree with. And one of those things is exactly what you're talking about right now. If I have a group of individuals that I feel conspired to commit a crime, you know, there's always someone who's the ringleader, someone who's very, very, they got the wall up. There's no way I'm going to get through to them.

They're never breaking. And it's, it's a waste of my time and my team's time to talk to them. There's usually someone who's a little bit more receptive, a little bit more open, a little bit more Gabby, someone who's willing to speak a little bit more, maybe slip up. It's not necessarily because we're going to try to manipulate that one person, but we're just trying to use some level of intelligence to say, okay, we got these three individuals. This one's a hardened criminal. Maybe they've been through the system. They know all the tricks of the trade and they're not saying anything. We're going to go for the guy over here who was probably just the driver and has a lot to

lose and maybe wasn't the main person in the crime. And once we start throwing sentences at them and how much they could do, how much time they could be away for something that maybe they didn't have a big contributing part in, maybe they're going to be more receptive to talking to us. So it is a tactic we use. I'm not going to lie to you guys. It is something where we'll try to find the person who's not necessarily weaker, but just more open to speaking freely. Yeah. And I mean, that could be just in general, like maybe that person is more to lose, or maybe you feel like you can make a deal with that person because they weren't as involved, et cetera, et cetera. With Jesse, I definitely think they went after him because he just wasn't like all that bright, you know, honestly.

Could be the case. And I wasn't there. So who am I to say that's not true? Yeah. Well, let's quickly go over the evolving statements of Aaron Hutchinson, who remember was only eight years old in 1993. And he would become a focus of law enforcement because he had allegedly been such good friends with Stevie Branch, Michael Moore, and Christopher Byers, the three boys who had been found brutally murdered in Robin Hood Hills. So Aaron first appears in the investigation case file on May 10th, 1993. Remember, that was the time that he told the police that he had witnessed his friend Michael Moore get into a maroon car that was driven by a tall black man with yellow teeth.

And this man had told Michael that his mother had asked him to pick Michael up from school. So Aaron would go on to be interviewed five more times by the police in connection with this case. He's never asked about that maroon car or its owner again or its driver again. Never. They never bring it up, at least as far as we can tell in the transcripts, et cetera, et cetera. They don't ask him about this person again, which is odd to me. On May 27th, Aaron's interviewed again, this time in the presence of all the important

law enforcement players in this case. We've got Detective Bryn Ridge, who, like, like by the way his name's Bryn Ridge but they spell it Bryn Ridge so I don't know why that they did that to him like why did his parents do that to him if you were gonna call him Bryn then just write Bryn but it's Bryn b-r-y-n-n so I'm gonna keep calling him Bryn Ridge just because that's how it's spelled. I say they also pronounce it Brian Brian It's Bryn dude Brian. There's no I Yen Yen Yen Bryn Bryn There's no I I for the Brian's out there. Okay. Why didn't they just name him Brian?

Like why didn't they just write you could have used Brian with Brian with a Y even if you like the Y, man. Yeah, I don't know. Why? A Y and two Ns. So awkward. So we got Detective Bryn Ridge. We got Inspector Gary Gitchell, who was the lead investigator in this case. And you've got Detective Sergeant Mike Allen.

And then we've got Chief Don Bray. Now, remember, Don Bray was a police officer in Marion. And he's the one who was supposed to be questioning Vicki Hutchinson about that money she stole from the place she worked. But instead, he was kind of jealous that all the West Memphis cops were working this really cool missing persons case that turned into a triple homicide. And he's over here like, I don't even want to talk to this lady about how much money she stole or if she stole money. So he was kind of waiting, in my opinion, for anything to come up that would like take him away from this unexciting case and move him more towards the exciting case that was happening right over there in West Memphis.

So we've got Donald Bray with the West Memphis police at this point. They interview Aaron and his mother, Vicki, at the Marion Police Department. And during this interview, Aaron claimed that on five separate occasions, he had gone to Robin Hood Hills with Christopher Byers and Michael Moore. And from the safety and security of their clubhouse up in the trees, they watched a small group of men doing nasty things to each other. During this interview, Gary Gitchell asked Aaron if he recognized any of the men in the woods, and Aaron said he didn't know any of them, but he did say he had seen one of them at flash markets. So he had seen them like around town, just one of them. Aaron said that none of the men they

were watching had ever seen them, but one of the men, who Aaron called the Skull Commander, was wearing a skull necklace that had a snake coming out of its eye. Aaron also tells Gary Gitchell, when asked if they ever played in the water, that they never got close to the water or played in the water, but they had walked over the pipe bridge. They just hadn't brought their bikes across. Dude, I have to stop for a second and talk about this pipe bridge. Do you know why I want to talk about this pipe bridge? I mean, I have a guess.

Do you know how many freaking comments on like Instagram? Really? Stephanie's an idiot. I can't believe that she kept talking about how these kids could. It's clearly big enough for the kids. Yo, chill out. It was not me who said that. Okay, good.

Literally all like I was saying, I understand why that would be the case, because everybody in the area was like those younger kids didn't go to that part of Robin Hood Hills because of the pipe bridge. Like they were afraid to walk across it because it was like precarious and rounded and they just didn't feel comfortable doing that. So like the younger kids of West Memphis wouldn't really be on the other side of that pipe bridge ever, as far as most people knew, because they were afraid to walk across it because it was precarious. And I saw the picture. I'm like, yeah, I get that, especially with your bike. I wouldn't want to do that because you would maybe lose your balance and I would be scared of falling. And literally everybody acts like I just pulled it out of my ass. I just made it up based on my opinion. I'm like, yeah, that yeah that pipe bridge i mean you were pretty hard on it every time i'd say you're like derrick because they insisted man like they insisted

all the people of west memphis they said like that's why the younger kids didn't go over there but we could see now there was a couple photos where you can see how the rounded part you may walk on that and then you would have the wheels of the bike on the more like the uh the iron the beams on the side that's how they walk across okay but young kids are just like scaredy cats okay so even if you can logically do it i mean i would walk across it at that age i mean you can say that now because you ain't that age anymore i used to do it i mean as kids when you're little boys we used to do dumb shit well wait derrick daredevil listen we were starting off good are you acknowledging that they could have walked the bikes across the beam?

Are you back in there? Are they across the bridge or no? Anything's possible. Okay. Is it possible? An alien could have flown down and lifted them across the pipe bridge. Okay. Everyone out there.

Take this as a win because that's the best you're going to get right there. That's the story of my life. Yes, that is the best you're going to get. That's her version of when I was sorry, I'm wrong. When I was attacked for literally like making this up when I didn't make it up. That's just what everybody said. Like if you go on the other side of the bridge, they said they would find like condoms, cigarettes, you know, stuff that would that would suggest older kids were over there, but they never found any stuff that suggested like younger kids. I got you. Were over there.

Listen, guys, like I said, take that. Take that as a W because that's the best you're getting. I hope you don't take it as a W. I hope you just take it as like, I didn't say that. Okay. I said I could see how it would be kind of scary for young kids. And like Mingya, before you knew it, I was the author. You came at me pretty hard when I was like, but yeah, could you, as you're thinking, you're like, Derek.

No. I don't know. I would be scared, man. They didn't walk those bikes across a bridge. I would be scared out of my mind with a bike. It looked pretty, I mean, there was also, I saw like a movie clip, like where they showed like on that bridge too, where they could do it, where they'd walk across young kids, where they have like the two tires on the beam.

Man, I'd be scared. I would not bring my bike over and I would not walk over. I'd be crawling, you know, like an inchworm, like inching over. If I got to go over, I'm going down at a low point of gravity. That's it. We'll take it as it's possible that they might've walked the bikes over there. They are physically capable of doing it. Depending on how scared they were, they could do it if they really wanted to. I mean, it's kind of irrelevant, which is why it also like- You're bringing it up. It also like drove me crazy that everybody was so focused. It's going in the comments again now.

It was so focused. They was so they were so focused and i'm like it's irrelevant they didn't bring their bikes over there the bikes were in the water so like notice i didn't bring attention to it which is why are why are we taught why why is that such a big because pete why is it just such a big linchpin right now you you brought when you said can you know do you know why i'm gonna bring it up i'm like i know you know i don't know me i don't know but anyways yeah I don't know. But anyways, yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, also Aaron Hutchinson is like not the most reliable of narrators.

So he's like, yeah, we would walk over the pipe bridge, but we wouldn't bring our bikes over the pipe bridge. So now remember, Aaron claims he went to Robin Hood Hills with Michael Moore and Christopher Byers. He does not ever mention Stevie Branch being there at all. He does later, but not initially. Not initially, okay. No, not at all. But Detective Bryn Ridge does ask Aaron if he ever saw Stevie in the woods.

And Aaron says, yes, but only one time. And he said Stevie didn't watch the men. And Aaron, Christopher, and Michael never told Stevie about the men. In fact, Aaron, Christopher, and Michael never told Stevie about the men. In fact, Aaron claimed that Michael and Christopher had told him to never tell anyone about what they saw about watching these men. So we also talked about how Aaron mentioned he saw the men being mean to a dog. They killed a cat, skinned it, ate its head or ate its body and kept its head. They were smoking

these weird all-white cigarettes. They were carrying a black briefcase he never saw the inside of. He says things like that. So on June 9th, 1993, Aaron talked to the police again, and this interview was recorded. I'm going to play you just a small clip so you can hear how young this little boy is. And also, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see how clearly uncomfortable he is with this line of questioning. And we're going to talk about it when we come back. Behind a tree. What were they doing? Watching five men. Watching some men? Mm-hmm.

What were those men doing? They were talking and stuff. Okay. And Michael and Chris and Steve was hiding? Okay. Steve wasn't there. Steve wasn't there. Where was Steve? With Jesse. Where was Jesse? Behind. He went behind the blue beacon truck stop. Did you not see Jesse? How many men were there that Not Captain Jesse. Four. Do you know who they were? Only Captain Jesse. Or who were they? Damien and Jason. Damien and Jason? Okay. Yeah, so I wanted to play more of that clip, but you know, it's not great quality. You can't really hear. He's a kid. He's talking very lightly. But who you hear talking to him, that's Gary Gitchell, the lead detective. And Gary Gitchell does something not only with Aaron Hutchinson here, but with Jesse Miskelly in his interviews where he basically quick fires a bunch of questions.

And he doesn't always get answers to all of them. He usually doesn't. So he'll ask like three questions in succession. How many men were there? Was Jesse there? Who'd you see Jesse with? And then the person answering only answers like usually the last one. And he never follows up to actually get the answers to the other questions he asked.

And I do think, especially when you're dealing with a child or someone childlike like Jesse and Miss Kelly, that's also very confusing. It's like when you tell your kid, your small kid, who's maybe seven or eight, I need you to brush your teeth, make your bed, pick your clothes out and pack your book bag. OK, for somebody like us, like an adult, that's easy. We can remember those four things in secession. But a kid, you're lucky if you get them to pack their book bag. That's all they heard. They can't remember all the other things you asked and they can't keep track of it in their head. So it can be sort of confusing. day one where the actual detective will be in a separate room and this trained interviewer, doesn't have to be law enforcement, will interview this child one time and the detective will be able

to watch from a second room because in that room with the child is like a teddy bear or like, you know, multiple cameras that they can't see where you're able to write down what the child's saying. You're also able to use a microphone and speak with the interviewer through her ear or his earpiece. But again, someone specifically who's trained in interviewing children in a way that's not traumatizing, but also it's more advantageous to what you're trying to accomplish because you can overwhelm them by the way you ask the questions, how you ask them, how quickly you ask them in succession. So there's definitely truth to what you're saying. And it takes some skills to do it, to do it the right way. So you're getting the real answers. Yeah. And you'll see, as Aaron continues talking to the police, which

five times is a lot to be interviewed by the police about something this traumatic, honestly. But you'll see, as he keeps getting interviewed, his story evolves, becomes more detailed, becomes more textured, and then eventually gets to a point where it's like unbelievable and just like wild. And remember, he said, no, Stevie was never there. I never saw him there. I just saw him there once. We never told him about the men. But now he's saying, OK, Stevie was there. Well, Stevie, Michael and Christopher were there. And then he's saying, OK, Stevie was there. Well, Stevie, Michael and Christopher were there. And then he's like, well, where was Stevie? Oh, no, he was with Jesse by the car wash.

I didn't see him. And it's just changing just in those in those seconds that he's talking. So it's not super reliable. No, I definitely agree with you. OK, so we're going to talk more about what this version of events Aaron comes up with now. But we are going to take a quick break first. We'll be right back. Okay, we're back. So in this new version of events, Aaron tells the police that Michael and Christopher asked his mother if he could play with them that day, and she did say

no. Remember, Vicki Hutchinson said the same thing, but he said after they got home, he got on his bike and went to Robin Hood Hills anyways. And this is where he witnessed the murder of his friends. And he also said that the day before the murder, Jesse Miskelley Jr. had told him that something bad was going to happen to his friends. Because remember, Jesse lived just a few doors down. He actually would babysit for Aaron and his brother sometimes. So they knew each other very well. I think like Vicki Hutchinson and Jesse would sometimes spend the night together. I swear to God they were sleeping together.

I don't know why she did this to him. But anyways, Aaron said that Jesse had told him, quote, get your friends and I'll get mine and we'll go down there and do something, end quote. And Aaron says that he and his friends and Jesse and his friends were all supposed to meet in Robin Hood Hills on Wednesday, May 5th, 1993. I'm not going to go like deep into specifics because Aaron does give them. I truly don't believe that this little boy saw what he claimed to see. I don't believe it in any way, shape or form at all. And that means that these very explicit details were planted in his head by an adult or more than one adult. It's really beyond me why anyone would traumatize a child like that, whatever the reason or motive, whether it was his mother, Vicky, because she liked the attention, whether it was more Vicki Hutchinson. Because when I'm listening to these interviews, the cops seem to be like buying it. Like they seem surprised at times.

They're like, are you sure? You know, and they're like, what? Really? That happened? So I don't feel like they would be planting these things in Aaron's head if they would be surprised by them. But I also think that the things Aaron said were surprising enough that the cops should have been like, yo, what's going on? This kid's eight. He's saying some really crazy things. Like we should probably second guess this. So everybody's at fault here for what this kid went through. So Aaron said, and this is important

to remember for later, Aaron said that all of the people there had knives. So Jesse and his two friends, Damien and Jason, all had knives. Aaron said that they tied up his friends, just their arms, their hands, just their hands were tied up, not their legs. They tied up his friends, but at some point, Aaron was able to get away. He tried to run, but then Jesse caught him and tied him up with a rope. And then Aaron was forced to watch while they hurt his friends. And then they left Jesse and Jason and Damien. And so then when they left, Aaron got untied and then went home. That's what he claims. So Inspector Gitchell, Gary Gitchell asked Aaron, quote, they didn't hurt you at all? End quote.

And Aaron responded, quote, they couldn't hurt me because I kicked every one of them with my foot just like this tied up. End quote. Yes, Gary Gitchell should have definitely been suspicious of this childhood fantasy. Aaron being the only one left alive because of his strong kicking powers, you know, while these other boys were tortured and murdered and like, you know, put in the water and two of them drowned. It seems highly unlikely that they would leave Aaron alive to witness this and then, you know, tell anybody about it. But instead of acting like an adult in the situation, going deeper, trying to distinguish the truth from the lies, Gary Gitchell says, quote, so you were there when they were hurting your friends. Tell me about that.

End quote. Like listening to it in the interview, it blows your mind. We can link the interview in the description box if you guys want to see it. But it's crazy because Aaron literally says something that is so unbelievable. And Gary Gitchell goes, um, all right. So tell me more about what you saw while you were there. And the only lone survivor of this horrible mass murder of these children that were exactly your age and you witnessed everything and you were left alive to tell the

tale. Does that sound normal to you as a police officer that that would make sense? This goes back to what I was just saying, right? You could look at it a lot of ways as far as what the motive behind Gitchell's decision to continue on with this conversation and not question that a little bit more. But this comes down to what I was saying as far as training and speaking to a child in a way where they'll be receptive to the questions you're asking. So yeah, when he's saying, oh yeah, they didn't hurt me because I was kicking them, knowing the details of how the three other boys were murdered, you know that whoever did this wasn't stopped by someone kicking. More than likely, these three boys fought as well.

Just natural instinct to try to survive. So to think that this kid was Pele over here and just kicking away at them where they decided, oh, he's too much. Too much work. That mule kick, man, it got me. I'm not gonna fight him anymore. Just don't tell anybody, kid.

That's a little hard to believe. Now, I don't know what's in Gitchell's head. So I don't know this guy. Not much. He might have thought, I don't want him to clam up and think that I'm questioning him. So I'm just going to continue on here, even though this sounds far-fetched. But that's the wrong decision. You have to find a way or at least be trained in a way so that you can further inquire about that specific thing without that child knowing that you're skeptical of what they're saying, right? And he's not equipped with that. He's not equipped with the way of interviewing that child so that the child feels like this

is an open conversation. I'm not being judged. I'm not, it's, he doesn't believe me. It's something where you just kind of do it in a way that they're like, oh, he just wants to know more. And maybe just by framing the question in a certain way where that child is indirectly asked to repeat what they're saying, they might give you a different version that's more accurate or at least allow you to start comparing notes of the two versions. It's just like talking to kids, you know, like, oh, wow, you're so strong. Like how

your legs get so strong, like something to keep them talking about that specific thing. Like it's the way you talk to kids. You can't skate over it. You can't skate over it. So I agree with you in the sense of, I don't know why he did it. It seems like even in that moment, to your point, him with that, um, it's like, wow, that was, this doesn't fit my narrative. What do I do now that you can go two lanes if you want on this and I'll give you both avenues, right? One lane is he's like, Oh, he said what I needed him to say. I'm not going to question anything. That's recorded got what I needed Let's move on. I don't want to dive into any deeper into it and it's going to sound even more unrealistic Or it could be what I just said pick your poison either or it's whatever you want to believe Little column b. Yeah, it's both viable where it could

be either or. All right. So Gitchell says, tell me more about what you saw when they were hurting your friends. Right. And Aaron says they all got stabbed. He said that Christopher got stabbed in their neck. Stevie ran, but he got caught and one of the men stabbed him in the stomach. Now, obviously, these wounds do not at all line up with what these three children suffered from. Gitchell didn't ask what happened to Michael, you know, and like, oh, what was happening to Michael while Stevie and Christopher are being stabbed? He just asked who took the boys clothes off. Aaron said that Jesse pulled off Stevie's clothes.

Jason pulled off Michael's clothes and the other one pulled off Christopher's clothes. Question, because I know we're not going to watch the whole thing. Was there anything before that where Aaron mentioned that they took their clothes off, where he said, why did they take off their clothes or who did? Or did he just bring up who took off the clothes out of nowhere? He just brought up who took the clothes out of nowhere. And he does it a million times. Huge problem.

Huge problem. Because you're putting, you're giving them the evidence. You're giving them, you're taking away their ability to give you information that they wouldn't know unless they were privy to the crime scene photos or at the crime scene. So by you saying who took their clothes off, now he knows, okay, somebody took their clothes off.

So this is where I got to go with it. So whether he's telling the truth or not, you can't use that. You need to say to them, okay, they hurt him. Now, even if the wounds don't line up with it, you don't acknowledge that yet. Anything else happened? Did the boys do anything? Did anybody do anything else that you remember?

Don't lead him anywhere. If he was there, he's going to say at one point, well, yeah, they made them take off their clothes or they took their clothes off for them. Not because it's what you want to hear. It's because he really saw that. And that's how you can start to verify the level of his credibility. That's how you establish a good witness as a detective, whether they're nine years old or 90. So not allowing them to do that and telling them things about the crime scene that they shouldn't necessarily know unless they have firsthand knowledge is a huge no-no,

is a huge mistake for the evaluation of your witness. Oh, if you thought that was bad, you're going to love it. When he interviews Jesse, you're going to love it. We're going to get there for sure. But this is bad. That's bad. I thought maybe I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and ask if somewhere prior in that conversation, maybe Aaron had mentioned them being disrobed, but if he just brought that conversation, maybe Aaron had mentioned them being disrobed. But if he just brought that up, like, how did their clothes? That's that you don't do that. You don't do that.

Yeah. So Aaron also said that the men used a rope to tie him and his friends up. He said he didn't know where they got the rope, but they found it. He says nothing about shoelaces, right? We know that Stevie, Michael and Christopher were tied up with their own shoelaces. There was no rope. You could say, oh, he's a kid. Maybe he mistook shoelaces for rope, I guess.

But he definitely wasn't there. Later on in the interview, even though he had told Gary Gitchell that none of the teenage boys had touched him, remember? So Gary Gitchell asks him several times, like, well, did they do anything to you? Did they rape you? Did they hurt you? And Aaron keeps saying, no, no, no, no. But finally, after being asked several more times the same exact question,

Aaron was like, yeah, they touched me in my privates. I will say at one point, as the story gained momentum and more details, Gary Gitchell did ask aaron like are you sure that this happened you aren't making this up he literally says like you're not making this up right and aaron's like no i'm not making it up and gary gitchell's like great that's all i need to know let's continue with this so at one point aaron claimed he'd fallen out of a tree and he injured his back so badly he couldn't walk. At another point later in the interview, Aaron said, oh, the teenage boys had attacked him with a rock and they

hit his leg and they hurt his knee. At no time did any of these police officers ask Aaron to show them these wounds, you know, the marks on his back from where he fell out of the tree or the wound to his knee that aaron said happened when they hit him with a rock never once do they ask him for anything like that they don't ask to verify these stories with you know seeing the the wounds on his body and there was you know enough time had not passed like it was a short enough time between when the murders had happened and when aaron was talking to the police that there would have still been some sign, a bruise or something like that from falling out of the tree or getting hit with a rock. They don't ask. You know, and I have to say, and this might be

an obvious statement, but I think for most people, you would realize when you hear the specifics of how these boys were murdered, whoever did this, they're not going to leave any witnesses. You know, I hate to say that, but that's, that's the level of skepticism. You have to come into this interview with Aaron. Is it possible? Sure. I always have to say that even though I'm eye rolling right now saying it myself, but these individuals who did this or this person who did this, there's three boys there, they killed three boys. If there were four boys there, they would have killed four boys. It's that simple. And remember Damien's talking to the police and he was like, oh, you don't, you, you gotta always worry about somebody squealing. You know, you gotta worry about somebody like telling. So the

less people, that's why I think it was only one person. So you don't have to worry about if they really thought it was Damien, wouldn't they be like Damien Eccles, this like horrible, like child mutilator and killer left this kid alive because of his like strong leg muscles the story would have been much more believable if aaron had said like i was hiding in the treehouse or in the woods and they didn't see me still tough but more believable where it wasn't that they let him live they spared his life they didn't know he was there it's kind of like the the idaho murders right now where we're talking about that, where you have this witness. I believe, at least, that if Kohlberger, who allegedly did this, if he knew that she was there, she would be dead as well.

So, yeah, I feel this is a similar situation where the murders are so heinous. They're so graphic. This person was taking their time out there and they wouldn't have spared anyone's life because that's just not the way they're built. But more importantly, they wouldn't want to leave someone like this who could who could identify them afterwards common sense dude i'm saying aaron lived two doors down from jesse miss kelly it's not even like oh i don't and remember initially he told the police no the guys we watched i didn't know any of them like i saw one of them once at a store but now all of a sudden he's like yeah he knows their names it's jesse miss kelly jr my neighbor who's babysat me before and his friends damien and jason when before he didn't

even know who the people were and you'd think if these guys they'd been watching you know five separate times one of them was jesse he would have been able to identify him pretty quickly considering they spent a lot of time together. Well, best case scenario is you have children who are overhearing adult conversations. Worst case scenario is you have adults filling the kids with false information, right? I think that a little bit of both, yeah. And so as a child, you're hearing what your parents and people around you are saying, and you want to be in the mix, and you start to put in your own version of it as well. So like you said, some spectrum in there where it might be a combination of both, but that

it appears so far, at least, that's what we have here. And I will say the big driving factor for me, even though there are people who probably believe this interview, is the fact that in most cases, statistically speaking, murders of this type of degree of the torment that these kids went through, they're not going to leave. They're not going to leave witnesses behind unless that person escapes on their own. Kicking is not going to be the reason they stop. That's what I'm saying.

And if anybody actually believes this kid's statements, I have no respect for you. I don't. Okay, well, that's a- I don't. I'm sorry. There's no way that these people are going to kill three boys in front of him and then leave him alive to tell the tale. There's no way in hell. I'm so sorry. And he's also not describing it correctly. He's not describing the injuries

correctly. The tying is not correct. There's a lot of things that don't line up with someone who would have seen this firsthand even though he's young there is very basic things that he would know as far as like the way they were tied you know if they were as you said the injuries to the boys bodies are not consistent with what he's saying you may get a factor too wrong here he's a little boy but it's just completely off it's not even close to to what what it does appear happen based on their autopsies not only is it off but it's constantly changing it's constantly getting more dramatic because he's a kid so he's gonna see like oh i they're very perceptive right children they have to be they have to go by their instincts when they're young because they don't have a lot of communication skills that adults have so they pay attention to adults' faces, adults' tones of voices.

Like that's how they survive. And so he's seeing like, oh, when I say this stuff, they perk up. They're interested. So they like this action. Exactly. So let me keep like being more illustrious and adding more details. And it's just so sad to think because Aaron's story, if possible, would become more dramatic. In a statement he gave the police after Jesse, Miss Kelly's trial started, Aaron

claimed he had been forced to help mutilate the bodies of his friends. So it just gets more and more descriptive and unbelievable. But at no point, I guess, did the police say like, I don't know if we can believe this. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. And as we touched on briefly last time, over a decade after making these statements, Aaron Hutchinson retracted them, according to an October 2004 article in the Arkansas Times, quote, According to the officer, Donald Bray, who talked to Aaron when his mother wasn't present, Aaron told him things about the murder scene that only someone who had been there would know. Is this accurate? Today, 11 years later, Aaron can no longer be sure he actually witnessed the murders.

There's no doubt that after several interviews, he told the police he did, but after daily sessions with therapists, nightly bad dreams, and the passage of 11 years, he says he simply no longer knows whether he was at the scene or whether, in his shock of the brutal slayings of his best friends, he only thought he had been at the scene, end quote. So this article goes on to explain that Officer Bray claimed Aaron had known the three boys had been hogtied and he would only have known that if he'd been present. But in an interview with Detective Bryn Ridge, Aaron begins to use phrasing such as, you know, when he was young. So he has a bunch of interviews. And then in one of the later interviews, I think the fourth or the fifth one, he starts to use this phrasing that makes it seem like he's not so sure. He says, you know, what I think happened is this, or this is what probably happened. And so clearly,

he's not 100% sure of what happened. And Aaron said that his friends had been hogtied, raped, beaten to death, weighed down with bricks and drowned. And obviously, most of that didn't happen. There was no sign that these boys were sexually assaulted. They were not weighed down with bricks. They were pinned to the creek bed with sticks. And so there's things that like he got wrong, but Officer Bray focused on that hogtied bit, right? That hogtied bit, which is like, oh, he knows what happened. He must have been there, even though the rest of what he said wasn't true. So when Ridge asked, like, oh, how did you know that they'd been hogtied? Who told you? Aaron responded, nobody. I just heard that from the news. And he said he'd also heard Dana

Moore talk about stab wounds she'd seen on her son, Michael's face. So like you said earlier, things he's hearing, things he's being told to say maybe, but he's listening to adults. Could be a combination of both. Yeah. The article goes on to say, quote, Aaron, who is now 19, is convinced that the three boys were killed by Christopher Byers' stepfather, Mark Byers. West Memphis officials have acknowledged that Byers, a former drug informant, once was considered a suspect. He was never charged. Aaron contends Mark Byers hated kids. Aaron is sure he told the police in his first interview about Mark Byers. His mother also recalls that, but adds there were so many interviews that she can't remember the details from all of them, but she remembers one interview

in particular. She says Detective Gary Gitchell had both her and Marion police officer Donald Bray sign an affidavit of silence, pledging themselves to never mention that Aaron had named Mark Byers. I learned later on there's no such thing as an affidavit of silence, says Hutchinson, but that's how he described the document we signed. Aaron is also sure he could not have identified Jesse Miskelley as being one of the killers because he and Miss Kelly had been friends and he would have noticed if Miss Kelly had been a participant in the slayings, end quote. So according to Vicki Hutchinson, the day after Damien, Jesse and Jason were arrested, their pictures came up on the news and this caused Aaron to fall to his knees screaming, no, no, Jesse has not done this. Like it wasn't Jesse. Quote, Aaron says he has never seen Damian Echols or Jason Baldwin before. And the only reason he identified them was to please the police officers interviewing him. In addition, Vicki Hutchinson

says she saw the photo lineup that police showed Aaron. I wasn't allowed in the room, but when the door came open for Aaron to leave, I saw the photos. They were on a poster board like you have in school. The picture of Damien was in the middle of the others, and it was much larger than the others. So of course, Aaron identified Damien. He just wanted to say whatever the police wanted him to say, end quote. So before you weigh on this, let me tell you what I think happened, because I don't believe anything that Vicki Hutchinson says. I think that she and Officer Bray cooked this whole story up because they were bored. They were both feeling unseen. And I think it was Vicki who planted most of this stuff into Aaron's head, as well as, you know, she filled the heads of law enforcement with all her talks of the SBAT bats witches meetings damien wearing a skull necklace

stuff like that so by the time the police started talking to aaron he'd already been primed and he was convincing enough to allow them to keep pushing forward there's times when these police officers seem so skeptical of what aaron is saying and i don't think that they would have been the ones to tell him this stuff if they seemed like surprised when he said some of this stuff. I don't really believe also that Vicky signed an affidavit of silence. And I don't think that either Vicky or Aaron were super suspicious of Mark Byers until the documentary Paradise Lost came out, which was in 1996. So that documentary placed the suspicion on Mark Byers. And it's possible that Vicki and Aaron allowed themselves to be led down a path again. Now,

this is not to say that I don't believe John Mark Byers is a viable suspect, because I do. I think he's a big time suspect, but I don't think that Aaron was yelling it from the rooftops in 1993 when this happened. I definitely don't think he was like was like yelling it from the rooftops in in 1993 when this happened i definitely don't think he was like it's mark byers and the police were like we don't want to hear about that tell us about damien yeah i definitely don't think that that happened i think that they realized like oh these kids are probably innocent like we're a big reason why they were in prison trying to correct the wrong because we're we really for so long? Yeah, let's try to correct a wrong because we really, we effed up here. I definitely have never heard of an affidavit of silence. I've never heard of that.

I don't think it exists. You can ask a witness to not speak to others about the statements they've given because it could hurt the case going forward. So you give them a verbal talk to where it's like, hey, listen, I appreciate if you don't discuss this with any family or friends because we may want to interview them. And if you're talking to each other, then it could kind of mix up stories. And we want them to only talk about what they remember. But it's more of an informal thing. There's no affidavit of silence in even just a case that's not malicious, nevermind a case where you say something that the police don't want to hear.

And afterwards, like, Hey, you signed an affidavit of silence right now and never mentioned that name again. It's just, it's crazy. And I think without seeing the special you're talking about, without knowing about it, I think it's a viable scenario where they start to see another perspective from someone in a potential suspect and they're watching it going, wow, yeah, that could be the guy. Maybe I remember something about him. Let's try to redirect this ship. Oh, dude. Yeah. It's definitely like, okay, this article came out in 2004. That's when Aaron Hutchinson is like, it was all a lie. I think he says a complete fabrication. And you said they were never charged? Aaron and Vicky. Yeah. No, he was eight

Eight at the time. How old was he when this came out? Yeah, I guess 19 vicky could have been charged though Dude, vicky should have been charged. I mean, I definitely think and I don't think many people are going to disagree with us But I don't know what the char I mean false false statements to police investigation He lied about going to like s batss and like witches gatherings and stuff. Yeah, I think there's something there where you can absolutely charge them with a crime or charge her with a crime, especially because she was an adult at the time. The problem is, the problem I will say, without knowing it all, the lawyers in the comments will hit me with it. But there is a statute of limitations on crimes that are usually not murder, rape, things like that. So I'm assuming because so many years had passed that even if she, which she did, admitted to lying, the statute of limitations on whatever charge that would have

been would have already passed and they would no longer be able to be charged, which is unfortunate because it doesn't change what their statements or how their statements impacted the three individuals who may be in prison for a crime they didn't commit based on or partially based on their statements. So here's what I will say. What Vicky said about Damien's picture being bigger than the others and being front and center, that has been confirmed by other people who also saw this photo lineup. Problem. Yeah, you think. Problem. We talked about photo packs, but I know you guys love that stuff.

These are all these little things that can't happen. There's so much specificity when you're creating a photo lineup because, first off, you have to keep, at least now, you have to keep that photo lineup. And by the way, even though it's the same photo lineup that you may show multiple witnesses, you may change it up a little bit, you have to print that out. There's an actual folder now, right, where the folder has six cutouts. So you just put the sheet of paper that has a template that has the photos lined up on it. You put the sheet of paper in the folder, right? And then you have the witness look at it and they sign the folder

and then they sign the photo inside the folder so that both are kept together, stapled shot. And that folder and that photo is never used again for anybody else because then they give a written witness statement saying, hey, I have selected person number four I have initialed and signed under the folder and other than under the Photo on the piece of paper that that's why I believe did it I am 100% certain of that or the degree of certainty They are that is taken aside put into the the main folder and then you create a new Photo pack with the same people maybe even for the next witness you never reuse it But all the photos have to be the same size. Not only that, another thing, we have times where we'll pull

photos of suspects from other police departments. Now, some police departments use the typical background that you'll see where it has like their height, you know what I'm talking about? It has their height in it, but- Like the thing behind them. Yeah. Like the thing where you can see how tall they are. And then other departments right in my own, my own town and my own state, I should say, use a blue background or a gray background. Well, you have to go in and Photoshop those backgrounds. So they're all the same so that the witness doesn't know, okay, this person standing in front of a back of a height board, they must've been arrested for something before.

You also have to cut out the placard. A lot of the times you'll have them hold the placard for their arrest number. That has to be cut out. There's so many things. It's not just like, hey, here's some photos, look at it. That a good defense attorney will look at that first thing and try to find something that's different with the suspect's photo as opposed to the others. And the judge will throw that out before you have a chance to say objection. It'll be gone. Not in this case. Not in this case, but I'm telling you, it's a big deal, huge deal, especially now because of things like this, where photo packs can be very suggestive because here's the thing. You get a bad detective, even if all the photos are the same, even if all the backgrounds are the same, even if everything's the same size,

you could have a shitty detective go in there and go, hey, any of these people look like it could be it. And as they put their finger on the folder to tap on all the photos, they just so happen to tap on the person who they think did it. They're guiding them. And there's no tracking of that. It doesn't have to be under a video recording when you do that. So that's just between you and the witness. And so there's a lot of advantages to the law enforcement in that sense where they could direct the person to the right photo, even if everything looks right on paper. So, yeah, that photo lineups are great. Great investigative tool if used properly. But there is some shitty moves that can be done if you're not operating under the policies and procedures that have been put in place to protect against things like that right so like and this is what i'm saying not only is this kid saying random wild stuff but the police are pulling tactics and

once again like i could say maybe they they weren't the ones to plant this stuff in aaron's head but i can't really excuse them for these kinds of tactics that are being done purposely to lead him in a certain direction. And apparently Aaron's mother, Vicky, passed the polygraph test. Now, don't even get me started on these polygraph tests in this case. I don't even I don't. Well, in general, I hate them. But in this case, like I legitimately don't even think this dude who was running the polygraphs for the West Memphis police. Like, I don't think he was

actually doing the freaking polygraphs. I'm going to be honest with you here. I think he was just sitting there pressing buttons, asking questions, pretending to do something because there's no damn way Vicki Hutchison passed the freaking lie detector test. Okay. Like, unless she was just drugged out of her mind on some downers or something, which I mean, that's possible. So because of Vicki and Aaron and what they said, this gives the police now a reason to bring in Jesse Miss Kelly Jr., which was done on June 3rd, 1993. Detective Mike Allen went and picked Jesse up and brought him into the police station for questioning at around 10 a.m., at which point Jesse was questioned on and off until 2 p.m. They started this back up around 2.44 p.m.

And that is when the police turned on the tape recorder. Keep in mind, Jesse had already been questioned for hours by the time the tape recorder was started. And the many times he denied any involvement in the murders were not captured on tape. Case file number 93050666. Currently in the office with Jesse Lloyd Miskelley Jr. Birth date 17 of 75. Education as a ninth grade. The place we are in the detective division, today's date is 6-3 of 93.

The time now is 2-44 p.m. Present in the interview will be Inspector Gary Gitchell and Jesse Miskelley. Jesse, in front of me I have a rights form. It's got your signature at the bottom of it. Does that prove your signature? Yes sir. Okay. We're informing you that we are Detective Sergeant Mike Allen and Detective Brian Ridge. Now Detective Sergeant Mike Allen is the one that read this form to you earlier. Is that correct? Yes sir. And I was here when he read it to you. Yes, sir. All right.

Police officers of the West Memphis Police Department. We're conducting an investigation for the offense of capital felony murder, which was committed on or about 5-5 of 93. Before we ask you any questions, you must know and understand your legal rights. Therefore, we want to advise you that you have the right to remain silent. Do you understand that? Yes. And those are your initials on the line in front of that statement have the right to remain silent. Do you understand that? Yes. And those are your initials on the line in front of that statement?

Yes, sir. Yes. Okay. Anything you say can be used against you in court. Do you understand that? Yes, sir. And those are your initials? Yes, it is.

Okay. So let's go back to a little bit before they started recording this. He gets picked up around like 10 a.m., 930. He's at the police station by 10. Between 10 and 11 a.m., Jesse was interviewed by Detective Mike Allen. And at that time, you know, he spent quite a bit of, first of all, he spent quite a bit of time saying, like, I have no idea. I don't know who did this. It wasn't me. I have no idea. I don't know these kids. I've never been to Robin Hood Hills. Like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Finally, after a little while,

he's like, yeah, I did hear around town that like Damien Echols and another person named Robert Birch had committed the crimes. But once again, like I've never been to Robin Hood Hills. I haven't taken part in any satanic activity. I'm not even aware that there's any satanic activity happening around West Memphis. Jesse said that when he had first heard about the kids going missing, it was 9 a.m. on May 6th, so the day after they disappeared. And he said he and a friend were driving east on I-40 towards Memphis, where they'd gotten a roofing job.

When he got back that afternoon, another friend had told him that the bodies had been found. So from 11 a.m. to 11.30, Jesse was read his rights, and Detective Allen drove him to see his father, Jesse Miskelley Sr., so they could get written consent to polygraph Jesse, who was a minor at the time. Jesse Miskelley Jr. claimed that as they were driving, Detective Allen told him there was a pretty hefty award for information leading to an arrest, and if Jesse could help, he would get the money. Later, Jesse's father, Jesse Miskelley Sr., said, quote, Mike Allen and Jesse was joking about the, he said, $40,000 reward. He said if Jesse, if they got a conviction out of this, that Jesse would get the $40,000 reward and he's going to buy him a new truck. And Jesse's laughing and said, no, I'm not either.

He said, I'm going to buy my daddy a truck and I'm going to take his old one, end quote. Detective Mike Allen claimed he had no recollection of talking to the Miss Kellys about the reward. Between 1130 and 1230, Jesse was given his first polygraph exam, and he claimed that Detective Durham, the polygraph expert, Detective Durham told him that the polygraph machine could read minds, and it could tell if what the mind held and what the mouth said were different. And Jesse said, quote, I didn't know what was going on because how could my brain be telling him that I was sitting there and lying? It got me confused. Then he stood up and he was talking. He kind of spit on me. I don't know if

it was on purpose or not because he was yelling when he did it. I drew back. I was going to hit him. Then Mike Allen came in and grabbed me, end quote. So Jesse Miskelley Jr. at that point stood at five foot one and he was maybe 120, 125 at the most. He was little, but he had learned all of his life to be very scrappy. He'd been getting into trouble and fights since kindergarten and his teachers had been recommending that he see a therapist for years, which he ended up doing. He ended up seeing several mental health professionals, psychologists, therapists, psychiatrists, the whole nine. Now, many of these mental health professionals felt Jesse was angry and aimless because he'd been abandoned by his mother.

And according to the book Devil's Knot, quote, Jesse's father had created a sizable family through a series of marriages, presenting Jesse with nine siblings, all but three of who were older than he. Psychologists reported that the family was loving but very rough. Jesse's main memory of childhood was one of fighting all the time. I had to take up for myself to let people know they couldn't run over me just because I was small, he said. I was walking around always looking for fights because I knew they would come. I took up for a lot of people because I had a quick temper and I knew what it was like to be picked on. I'd been picked on since I was about four or five. My brothers always picked on me and my stepsisters always picked on me. They tried to tell me what to do. Another memory was of his

father drinking beer like a fish every day since I was born. The habit, Jesse said, resulted in some bad times, but that's how it is when people drink. Despite the bad times, Jesse was devoted to his father. He considered him a sweet guy, a man who would do anything for anybody and his role model in life. Almost as soon as Jesse entered school, his teachers identified him as slow. At seven, he still could not say his ABCs past the letter R. He could not count past 15. When Jesse scored a 67 on an intelligence test, an examiner reported that he was mildly mentally retarded. He was placed in special education classes, but his behavior was also a concern. Teachers described Jesse as sulky, disrespectful, impulsive, indifferent, stubborn,

uncooperative, and prone to rage. They complained that he would periodically lash out physically at fellow classmates and at them. A psychologist who saw him at the age of seven recommended that Jesse's behavioral problems were so severe that he should be treated in a hospital, but as the family didn't have money, such treatment was never given serious consideration the psychologists advised big jesse and little jesse's stepmother to take him for regular counseling at the county mental health center the same one where damien would go the miss kelly's went for a few sessions but jesse's fighting did not abate and the next year after having been suspended from school the eight-year-old was taken to a psychologist in Memphis. The examiner wrote that Jesse appeared to be a boy who is non-psychotic, not retarded, but who feels bad about himself and his world.

He sees himself as vulnerable, unable to handle the pressures which surround him, and in danger of being overwhelmed. The psychologist added he pulls his own hair and bites himself when agitated. He is reported to have abused animals when he rages and has shredded his clothes while out of control. The psychologist's notes offered other glimpses into the child's home. Jesse's father presents himself as a man who has a very bad temper, informing the interviewer of an occasion in which he had fought five men and didn't remember anything after the first lick, though he won the fight. Jesse's father also indicates very rough play with Jesse, including play punches which send him across the room and into the wall. His willingness to continue in this type of play indicates to the family that he is tough and can take it.

Both adults agree that Jesse will fight everybody but his father. He directs his anger towards his father at safer objects. Like the psychologist the year before, this one recommended a residential facility or hospital for Jesse and family therapy for his parents. Again, the suggestion of hospitalization was rejected and counseling sessions, while started, were not continued. Jesse was kept in kindergarten for two years and in second grade for two more, but the maturity his teachers had hoped to see did not develop. Instead, the boy's reputation as a troublemaker grew. He daydreamed in class, often seemed confused, and bullied other kids. Despite the special education classes, he fell further behind

academically and emotionally. When the psychologist examined Jesse at age 10, he reported an IQ of 75. The score placed Jesse on the low end of normal, though the boy's verbal abilities fell into the mildly retarded range. By the age of 11, Jesse had only made it to the third grade. His teachers reported that he did not have an adequate vocabulary

and that when reading, he could not understand a passage or draw conclusions from what he'd read. By then, he was also regarded as dangerous. He'd hit a girl in the head, stabbed a boy with a pencil, and severely cut his own hand by punching windows out of cars. When the school suspended Jesse for splattering ketchup around the lunchroom, a juvenile judge sent him for yet another psychological examination. Both his parents were supposed to accompany him, but this time only his stepmother could attend. Big Jesse had been arrested for selling marijuana and was serving time in prison. Little Jesse told the court that he wanted to drop out of school, but the judge ordered him to continue. Five troubled years later, by the age of 16, Jesse had been promoted

to the ninth grade, but his skills were barely at a fourth grade level. On IQ tests, he ranked among the lowest 4% of students his age. His last psychological evaluation was administered when he was 16, just before he dropped out of school. A report at that time showed that Jesse showed deficits in his general information, abstract and concrete reasoning, numeric reasoning, language development, word knowledge, verbal comprehension, and spatial visualization, end quote. So that's a lot, a lot about Jesse's background. I think it gives us some insight into Jesse, and we are going to talk about it when we get back from this break. Okay, so we're back from break. Lots of process there. I will say on the surface, you would read that narrative, you would read that assessment and think, could this be someone who could kill these little boys? I think most of us would agree. Yeah,

this history of violence would suggest someone very capable of doing something like this. But that's only one element of it. That's only one pillar when deciding whether someone actually committed a crime. Yeah. Do they have this predisposition to violence? I think that we check that box, right? I think we could agree with that. So, yeah, it's definitely a really interesting assessment considering what we're looking at Jesse for.

I think it was interesting. Two things stuck out to me. If I'm being unbiased and I'm looking at Jesse as a potential suspect, the fact that they said he had been known to harm animals and the fact that they said he would fight anyone but his father and he chose to take his anger that was directed at his father out on safer objects, which to me says something smaller, something weaker, something more vulnerable. And we do see this is a pattern when kids like this grow up getting pushed around and bullied. They tend to, you know, become the bully and look for somebody that they can exert their dominance and their control on because they're so sick of it happening to them. And so they pick on somebody smaller and somebody who's younger, usually hurt people, hurt people,

all that jazz. Now, does that mean it's going to escalate to the point where he's going to brutally murder three little boys? That's another question, right? And to do it by himself, because then we'd have to assume that Damien and Jason were involved. And do Damien and Jason have anything in their backgrounds that would suggest they'd be capable of something like this? So Damien, we went over Damien extensively. He doesn't have anything like this. No, and neither does Jason. No, no.

But but it is something where and I think I said it when we recorded just because there's a lack of that doesn't automatically mean they're not capable of it so it may not have been documented or you know just nobody observed this behavior or it could be just something that came that they had been compartmentalizing for many years and they finally lost it that's also possible so having one of those people one of the three people that were convicted of this crime having a background like this is something that, yeah, it doesn't automatically mean they did it, but it's definitely not a good thing for you. If you're Jesse Miskelley and you're being looked at for a potential murder, which involves the horrific murder of three kids in a very violent way, you would expect to see someone involved with this have a history like this. And then here you are, you know, you can't make this stuff up.

Yeah. You know what? I kind of got sad when I was reading this because it felt like I was reading Christopher Byers file. He kind of had the same thing going on as Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. had. He was always getting in fights in school. He was always acting out in school. His parents were talking about sending him to one of those like residential, like psychiatric facilities. We had the similar things that his psychiatrists were saying, you know, that he just couldn't control himself and he didn't have these reasoning abilities. And he was just becoming this huge problem child for his parents. And it made me sad to think like, it's sad in all ways, in all aspects. Like if Jesse and Miss Kelly had something to do with these murders, he was just murdering a younger version of himself, somebody who, you know, and he takes out this anger and this rage, not where it should be taken out, which is towards the adults who have put him in this position where he has to feel weak and vulnerable. But also, you know, he's murdering somebody that if he had taken a moment to talk to this kid, maybe they could have found solace in each other. And maybe he could have even mentored

him and found, you know, some sort of meaning in helping the younger version of himself. So it was very sad because it's like, and I said it, I think at the top of the episode on the first part, like all of these kids, these six kids, the West Memphis three, as well as the victims, they had so much in common, you know, they had so much in common. And so to think that like, whether they're guilty or not, still, they were there and they're connected forever. And, and they, you know, they just had so much in common common and it's sad to me. It was deep. I got nothing to add to that. I'll keep it, keeping it on the case. But yeah, that's definitely a way to look at it for sure. Yeah, it's terrible all the way around. And you do see a lot of cases like this where if they commit the crime, they commit the crime,

but you will find a lot of the times when you have offenders, there is some really sad stories in their background that led them to that point. It doesn't justify what they did, but you can't help but have some sympathy for them to think that the way they got to that point, it was horrific for them too. They did just wake up one morning and become this person. It was years and years of abuse on their own that led them to this point. Still not justified, but I

think we can all still acknowledge that, but also hold them accountable. Yeah. And it's just, I think, a representation of humanity and society to say that the anger is always the first thing, the rage and the anger and the violence is always the first thing that people go to when this could have, it could have gone very differently if Jesse had met like Christopher Byers in a different situation. Like Christopher Byers was at Aaron Hutchinson's trailer one day. Jesse sees himself in this kid. They find healing through each other. I know. I feel like I'm sappy right now.

Let's move on. I don't want to talk about it anymore. I'm just looking at the next line of the script and I can't get over the fact that you're consistently calling this guy by the wrong name, even though in the recordings that we're playing, it's Brian Ridge. You mean Bryn? Yeah. Bryn Ridge. Screw Bryn Ridge, man.

Bryn Ridge is a huge, I don't care, because he's a huge reason of why this one is far as it did. That's why I think you're purposely calling him by his wrong name. I think if it was someone else, you'd be like, no, we got to call it by whatever their real name is. But him, you're like, nah, I'm making it up. I'm going with whatever name I want. Forever Bryn.

He's going to be. Oh my God. Wow. real name is but him you're like nah i'm making it up i'm going with every name whatever name he's gonna be oh my god wow i'm sorry his parents did it to him not me okay all right so listen jesse's in the interview room and he's passed you know he's confused he doesn't know what's happening the polygrapher's like this machine can tell me when your brain is lying and your mouth is lying. And he's just like swinging on cops. So they take him out, right? According to Detective Brynridge, after administering Jesse's first polygraph, Bill Durham, the polygraph expert, he left the interview room and announced to his waiting colleagues, quote, he's lying his ass off, end quote. And after Jesse was removed from the polygraph room, he was put into another room where Gary Gitchell began to question Jesse.

Jesse said that Gitchell asked the same questions he had already been asked. Jesse said, quote, when Gitchell asked me what the boys looked like, I told him all the stuff I'd heard. I kept telling Gary Gitchell I wanted to go home. He said I could go home in a minute. Then he kept asking me the same questions over and over again. From that point, it just got rougher on down. They asked me, how did I know so much about the murder if I didn't do it?

I kept telling him. I didn't know who did it. I just knew of it, what my friend had told me. But they kept hollering at me. Gary Gitchell and Bryn Ridge both. They kept saying how they knew I had something to do with it because other people had done told them. After I told them what the boys were wearing, Gary Gitchell told me, was any of them tied up? That's when I went along with him.

I repeated what he told me. I said, yes, they was tied up. He asked, what was they tied up with? I told him a rope. He got mad. He told me, God damn it, Jesse, don't mess with me. He said, no, they was tied up with shoestrings. I had to go through the story again till I got it right.

They hollered at me till I got it right. So whatever he was telling me, I started telling him back. But I figured something was wrong because if I'd killed him, I'd have known I'd done it. End quote. So quickly, we can keep going. Few things. We just talked about Jesse's past. And we talked about how it could be indicative of somebody who may commit a crime like this

the other side to that coin is Talk about someone who had a very low IQ and you have to ask yourself if they're mentally equipped To handle an interrogation like this like a normal person and the answer no the answer is definitely no Now there is a world where at this moment the the police are not aware of that, and that's okay. The reality is after the fact, when this information is brought forward about his past, this interview, whether it was conducted properly or not, becomes a very big question mark for a defense attorney, for the courts, because now you have to wonder, was this person mentally able to process like everybody else would, what was transpiring there, what the detectives were trying to accomplish. And I think based on his history, most people, especially a judge, would rule that his confession was inadmissible because of his mental capability at the time. The other thing, as far as what you keep talking about, there's two sides to this i don't have an issue with this type of interrogation i have an issue with the recorder not being on because you can start off and expect

that even if the person did it they're probably i've never had a person when you first say hey i'm here to talk to you about and they go stop stop right there i did it let's just get into it you gotta you gotta you gotta push them a little bit. They're going to deny, deny, deny until you start closing off avenues and they realize there's no escape and then they'll confess, right? You got to usually earn it. So I don't have a problem with the process. If, if Jesse was, you know, not everything I just said 10 seconds ago, as far as his mental capability of processing what's being asked. But number one thing is when you step into that room, the little clip that you just played, the little clip that you just played where they're talking about, he's going through the process. I'm here with Jesse. I'm here with Jesse. This

is my name. This is his name. You've been read your rights. That's the first thing that happens in an interview. Immediately when you sit down, you have a right to protect yourself against self-incrimination. So before you're asked a single question that could incriminate you, you're supposed to be Mirandized. You're supposed to be read your rights. That's how you start the interview. So the big problem here for me is the fact that they didn't turn on the recorder until they had done everything they did. So for me, this loses a lot of merit because of the way it was done. Yeah, that clip you heard

was almost five hours into Jesse being at the police station. Five hours being at? He got there at 10 and you heard that that recorder was turned on, what, like 2.45? Right, but you were saying, and I'm not defending it, but I thought you had said,

and I could be wrong, when did the actual interview, even if it started five minutes before that, it doesn't matter. But when was the actual, because he had the polygraph and all that stuff first, right? They brought him in at 10. They questioned him for a little bit where he denied everything. And then they were like, okay, you're lying. So we're going to bring you to your dad, get permission to take a polygraph.

We're back here. Now we take the polygraph. Now we're going to question you for some more hours. And then we're going to turn the table. Yeah, no, no go. No go. And it should have been mirandized the minute you brought him in in the morning the minute before you even talk to him it's listen you have the right to have an attorney present you have the right to remain silent you know that's the first thing that you asked like you saw in that interview but it's at the top of the interview not the back yo the weird

thing is it says that they did that earlier. So why are they doing it again on the tape recorder? It's almost like they want people to think that they just started the interview. Ah, interesting. Well, I mean, so here's the thing. And again, not defending them here. There's been situations where there's a sense of urgency where you might interview someone in a vehicle and there may not be a recorder available and you Mirandize them and you have them sign it from what you're telling me it sounds like they were already at the station they had the ability to get a recorder they had the ability to sign

the forms usually those forms are also dated not only with the date but also the time so you'll have you may have a situation where you engage in some questioning the person's not responsive you know if it's a suspect they're not responsive to what you're saying. So you originally had them sign a statement. Now you stop talking to them for even if it's an hour, right? You give them food, whatever, make sure that there's nothing they can use where they were hungry or thirsty or had to use the bathroom. Then you may re-engage them. And if you decide to re-engage them, the best practice is to Mirandize them again, just to make sure they understand their rights again. So if they happen to say something incriminating that can't be used by

a defense attorney later. So you may have a situation where if you're interrogating them over a period of a few hours where there's breaks, you may have two or three Miranda forms that are filled out and that's perfectly normal, but that's what you do to cover your ass so a good defense attorney can't rip it apart later. Well, there's plenty to rip apart here. Clearly, I mean, you're calling the guy by his wrong name, obviously not doing it because you have respect for him. I mean, that's kind of- I don't, yeah. Yeah, you led with that one. So listen, Jesse's all twisted, man. He has no idea what's going on. They finally kind of like they get they get the recorder on and then they're questioning him. And all of a sudden, Jesse goes from not

knowing anything, never having even been in Robin Hood Hills to like he yeah, he was there. He knows everything. So Jesse claims that on the morning of Wednesday, May 5th, Jason Baldwin called him. And Jason said, me and Damien, we're we're going into West Memphis where we want you to come with us, basically. And Jesse's like all over the place. He's like, I told him I couldn't. I had to work. But then like two seconds later, Jesse's like, so Damien and me and Jason walk to West Memphis at nine o'clock in the morning. He doesn't say anything else. They go to West Memphis and they go to Robin Hood Hills even though jesse claims before he's never even been there let's go straight to that date 5 5 of 93 a wednesday early in the morning you received a phone call is that correct yes i did who made that phone call just bought all right what occurred what did he talk about?

He called me and asked me could I go to West Memphis with him. I told him no, I had to work and stuff. He told me he had to go to West Memphis, so him and Damien went. Then I went with them. When? Wednesday. Alright, when did you go with them? That morning. At 9 o'clock in the morning? Yes, sir. Okay. I go with them? That morning. 9 o'clock in the morning? Yesterday.

Okay. I went with them. Were you in a car? Whose car were you in? We walked. Y'all walked? Right. We walked.

Where did you go? We went to Robin Hood. You went to the Robin Hood. Explain to me where those woods are. About a blood-baking truck wash. Just a little patch of woods. Little patch of woods. Behind blue bacon? Behind it. Right back there behind it. Okay. What occurred while you were there? When I was there, I saw Damien hit this one boy real bad. And then he started screwing him and stuff. And then... All right, you've got in front of you a picture that was taken out of the newspaper, I believe.

It's got three boys. And these are the three boys that were killed on that date in Robin Hood Woods. Okay, which one of those three boys is it you say Damien hit? The third picture which will be... This boy right here? Yeah. Alright, that's the buyer's boy. That's who you're pointing at?

If you read the captions, the grizzly slain from left, eight-year-old Michael Moore, Stephen Branch, and Christopher Byers. Okay. All right, so we're back. I'm not going to weigh in too much on this because there's so much more context to it than just this. We just discussed it for 20 minutes. So I think I speak for a lot of people where if you were just hearing this, if all I did was turn on this recording and you don't know any elements of the case and you didn't know the investigative tactics earlier that morning, nothing, you would listen to this or watch this and say, wow, this is, we got a confession here. So I'm not going to say anything because there's so much context to it. Like I know how it sounds, but there's so much more to it that led to this point so i'm just gonna reserve any judge i know we have a lot of footage and a lot of audio we're

gonna play tonight got another for you for you guys to know they got another 25 minutes of stuff like this right that fair to say that i'm looking at the clip that we're playing throughout the night tonight sure yeah so we got a lot to go over so i'm not going to dissect every piece because there's more layers to it than just what's being said well i will so well yeah you can go yeah if you want to go right ahead did you did you hear that clearly jesse doesn't even know who any of these three boys were that got murdered because the police had to show him a picture from the newspaper and be like see read the read the caption i know you said that was michael moore but the person that you that you pointed out who you said you saw damien hit over the head that that's actually that's the buyer's boy.

That's Christopher Byers. And Jesse's like, yeah, I see. So they're showing him a picture from the newspaper with the boy's names like in the caption. So you lost me there. So what do you what's your issue with it? What I mean, it's kind of like, I guess, putting, you you know a line up a lineup and having the people's names underneath if you killed these kids and you claim you know who they are well wouldn't you know the difference between who christopher byers and michael moore was not not if you didn't know the

boys previously right you could kill three boys and no he did no now he's remember he's well he you don't hear him say it they just just, they didn't record that part. But basically he was like, yeah, we knew them and we learned them there. Okay. Well, going off of this clip, again, see, that's what's hard for me, right? Like I'm not hearing that, but if I'm just taking it at this recording, I don't have an issue with the names being at the bottom there. I don't have an issue with them showing him the boys and then them saying which one was it and him pointing to one and misidentifying them by name, because that, that may be something where we have killers who don't necessarily at the time who don't know their victims. It's terrible, but, um, but I, I get where, I guess I see where you're

coming from, but yeah, that it's not as much of a red flag or against policy to do something like that. I guess you could just take photos of the kids regularly and not have this newspaper article probably be a better solution, but it doesn't have the same impact that it would, as I described earlier with like a photo lineup where you're implicating someone in the crime as opposed to just the victims. Okay. What do you think about when they're asking him where Robin Hood Hills is and he's like behind Blue Beacon truck wash and they're like just a little patch of woods back there right you know kind of like they're describing it for him because he's never been there before don't come for me Stephanie but I don't have an issue with again the way it's being said there but I know you want my honest opinion so I didn't that didn't

like register for me where I was like oh they're definitely leading them hard but again we get so much to go I'm not team anyone right now but but just this little clip, I didn't see anything that was super. Glaring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good way to say it, yeah. All right, let's keep going. So you saw Damien strike Chris Myers in the head. Right.

What did he hit him with? He hit him with his fist and bruised him all up real bad. Then Jason turned around and hit Steve Branch. Okay. And started doing the same thing. Then the other one took off. Michael O'Moore took off front of it. So I chased him and grabbed him and held him until they got there and then I left. Okay. All right. When you get the boys back together, where are you at from the creek?

I was up by the service road. Up by the service road? Okay. Now, when he hits the first boy, where are they at when he hits him? Are you in the woods? Are you on the side of the big bayou? Are you out in the field? Where are you at? I was him? Are you in the woods? Are you on the side of the big bayou? Are you out in the field? Where are you at?

I was in the woods. In the woods. Okay, you've been down there in those woods before. Can you describe to me what, in those woods, what's the location where you were? Is there a path you go down? I was down a little path. Alright, where does that path go to? It leads out there close to the field, close to the interstate.

Okay. That's where I was at. Alright. I was close by the interstate. When he hits the first boy, and then Jason hits another boy, and one takes off running, where does he run to? That one, he runs out going out to the park, and I chased him and grabbed him and brought him back.

Which way does he go? Does he go on back towards where the houses are? Is he going to Blue Bacon? Is he going out towards the field? Where does he run into? Towards the houses. Towards the houses. Where the pipe is that goes across the water? Yeah.

Okay. It ran out there. I called him and brought him back. And then I took off. Okay. All right. Do you feel like there's a little bit more leading going on here by Detective Bryn Ridge, where he's like, can you describe the woods?

And Jesse's like, uh, and he's like, is there a path? Did you take a path? That was the one thing. Let me answer the question. There were some points where I thought it was good, where he's like letting them say where they went, you know, not necessarily filling in the blanks. And then there's stuff like that where I was like,

ah, just shut up for a second. Like silence is a huge asset that you have as a detective. Like ask a question and then let them fill that silence with their words, shut up and just let them talk for as long as they want to talk. And then when they're done, you can ask the next question. So I don't like their style to begin with. I feel like both of them, there's two investigators there. They're both interviewing him. I'd never liked that style. Usually one person's conducting it. The other person's watching. So I don't necessarily like that style, little leading on that, where it's like, you want to make sure that they're telling you the truth and describing the area so that you

know they've actually been there before, but before they can answer, there was the path and there was also, oh, towards the homes. And the other detective says, oh, where the pipe is, you know, just shut up, just shut up and let them talk. Exactly. And I think that that's the big issue because Jesse was was not there. And they obviously had like a map and pictures and stuff in front of him. So he's kind of going off of what he sees on the table in front of him. But let's take our last break and we'll be back to listen to this interview further. OK, we're back and let's play the next clip. You came back a little bit later, and all three boys are tied.

Is that right? I took off and went home. All right. Have they got their clothes on when you saw them tied? They had them off. They had already gotten them off. When he first hit the boy, when Damien first hit the first boy, did they have their clothes on then?

Mm-hmm. All right. When did they take their clothes off? Right after they beat up all three of them and beat them up real bad. Beat them up real bad. Then they took their clothes off. Mm-hmm. Then they tied them.

Then they tied them up, tied their hands up. They started screwing them and stuff, cutting them and stuff. I saw it and I turned around and looked. And then I took off running. I went home. And then they called me and asked me how come I didn't stay. I told them I just couldn't. Just couldn't stay for the night?

I couldn't stay and see what they were doing to him. Okay. Now, when it's going on, when it's taking place, you saw somebody with a knife. Who had a knife? Jason. Jason had a knife. What did he cut with the knife? What did you see him cut, or who did you see him cut?

I saw him cut one of the little boys. All right. Where did he cut him at? He was cutting him in the face. Cutting him in the face. Another boy was cut, I understand. Where was he cut at? At the bottom.

On his bottom? Was he face down and he was cutting on him? He was... You're talking about bottom. Do you mean right here? Mm-hmm. In his groin area? Okay.

Do you know what his penis is? Yeah. That's where it was cut at. That's where he was cut. Which boy was that? That right there. You're talking about the buyer's boy again? Okay.

Are you sure that he was the buyer's boy again? Okay. Are you sure that he was the one that was cut? That's when I said I'm cutting on him. Do you know what a penis is? Yes. Is that where he was cutting? That's where I said I'm going down at. And he was on his back.

I said I'm going down like everyone close to his penis and stuff. And I saw some blood and that's when I took off. Okay, so you heard Bryn Ridge was like, where did they cut him? Like his face, where else? And Jesse says one of the boys was cut at the bottom. And then Gary Gitchell cuts in. He's like, do you mean right here, right there? And Gitchell would later say he was like, because they were like, why did you point and basically lead him? And he was like, I didn't point. When I said right there, it was Jesse who pointed to the groin area, which is clearly a lie because it doesn't make any sense

that Gary Gitchell would be like, do you mean right here? But it was Jesse who was pointing. So basically, Jesse simply said at the bottom, which doesn't specifically indicate where exactly one of these boys would be cut. And we know that, you know, there was some cutting in the groin area. So he's not being specific enough. So Gary Gitchell has to be like, oh, you mean right here? Like, what do you mean at the bottom? Because at first Bryn Ridge is like, oh, well, was he on his face thinking he means like his butt, you know, because that's what he said. And then he and then Gary Gitchell is like, no, no, no, no. You mean right here, like in the groin area? That's what you mean. And Jesse's like, yeah,

that's that's what I mean. And then Bryn Ridge is over here. Like, do you know what a penis is? What is that about, man? Like, if you have to ask this kid if he knows what a penis is, you probably shouldn't be interviewing him without a parent or a lawyer present, because if you're that concerned that Jesse, Miss Kelly Jr., who I assume has a penis, might not know what one is, then maybe he's not going to do very well in questioning with you. Yeah, it was just a lot more leading where they're just, the guy's not finished speaking and they're getting excited almost where they're like, oh, this is it. This is the smoking gun. And they just can't wait. Just let them, let him speak, let him talk. And then when, if he's silent, then you can start filling the void. I will say, and I'm not trying to be argumentative

or go against the grain, but I will say, is it possible that as you're interviewing the person, you're like, okay, well, what do you mean? Where was it? Was it? And as you're saying it, they're verbally going like they're non-verbally going like this. And you're like, oh, and you're in the groin area. And he's like, yeah, yeah. In the groin area. Yeah. I guess. I don't know if I believe that. He said it so quickly that I don't really. Right. Like, so I'm just trying, I'm trying to think about it visually. Like he could have been like, so what do you mean the bottom? What do you mean the bottom? Like, and as he's saying it, Jesse's going like this and he's going oh in the groin doesn't still make it true it doesn't negate everything else you're saying as far as they're leading them constantly just let them talk and so i don't like it it's like tough to

listen to because they're so quick to try to pull it out of them this is a dance you got to go slow you got to take your time you gotta let them talk and it just, it's almost distracting. It means so much more. Even if it takes him 30 minutes to get to saying it was his penis, let him say it, right? Let, just let it come out of him naturally. And it's going to hold so much more weight at court because there's no way to, to, to spin that and say, oh, you let them there. I'll also say you can kind of tell that there's a previous conversation before this conversation, because there's gaps in the questions where there's things that are inferred as if they've already spoken about it. So, and they kind of catch themselves a little bit sometimes where they're like, so you said there was some cutting or from what I understand,

another boy was cut. You know, see how he caught himself when he said that he goes, when I understand another boy was cut too. Right. see how he caught himself when he said that? He goes, when I understand another boy was cut too, right? And so it feels like there was a previous conversation that's not on record that they're trying to stay on this path like this is the first one, but it's not. There's been some previous conversations and you're starting to see little parts of that where something that he forgot he didn't discuss in this particular recording that was mentioned earlier is being brought into this discussion. For instance, the knife, right? So exactly.

You don't hear Jesse at all in this interview. And obviously, I'm not playing all of it for you. But I took out like, you know, a lot of stuff that's kind of just like repetitive. But you do not hear him at all in this interview mentioned anything about a knife. In fact, he says Damien hit hit Chris Byers with his hand, his fist at first. There's no other weapons being talked about. And then all of a sudden Bryn Ridge is over here like, no, you said they had a knife. Didn't he say they were cutting him?

I thought he said they were hitting him, they were cutting him. I don't know if he said it at that point, but he didn't say he had a knife, right? No, just cutting them. I think maybe it was assumed it was a knife, but I'm still on your side here where it's like there's obviously other conversations going on. But listen, this is the one thing I can tell you just by listening to the first few minutes of this interview. They're not good interviewers.

They're not trained interviewers. They might have gone to a school, but they didn't listen. They're not good interviewers. And that's not a bashing on them and saying I'm better. They just, they're not using the tactics that we're trained to use. And I'm by no means, am I the authority on interviewing interrogations, but I've been to a few different schools. I've interviewed people and this is not the way you do it. Whether it's a larceny or a murder, this isn't the way you do it at the most innocent level they're excited because they think they have something and they just can't help themselves but at worst there's

there's a lot more going on here where they they've coerced this kid into saying it and now they're just trying to get it all out before he forgets what that's what that's what i was gonna say like at best they just are like small town cops that suck at interviewing. They think they just solved a tragic murder. They're like, this is awesome. We got this. And they just can't save themselves. At worst, right?

They have tunnel vision. They think that Jesse and his friends did this. They think Jesse's stupid and probably just can't remember the facts correctly. So they have to help him along or else he's going to screw it up for everybody just by being stupid and not remembering the details. It's too bad because I'll tell you what, on a scale of one to 10, as far as the interaction with the cutting of the penis, right? Scale one to 10, I'll give it like a four. You know, it's not the worst. It could have been, it could have been like, Hey, we, we heard that they cut his penis. Did you see that? That's a one, right? Because then that's

not guilt knowledge. You just told them. Yeah, but you don't know if that happened in the five hours before they turned the recording on. Let me put a disclaimer out there. I'm only going off of the interview. That's what I'm judging off of. I don't know what happened before. It doesn't sound good, but I'm only going off the interview. That's a four, maybe a three. But if they would have just let him talk, if he would have organically, not assuming there was a previous but if they would have just let him talk if he would have organically not assuming there was a previous conversation where they mentioned mentioned the groin or anything like that and he just organically brought this up jesse and says yeah they were cutting him down

there and he just said it on his own without any leading or any insinuating that that was cut down there man that is guilt knowledge especially if it hadn't been you know publicly released or kind of filtered out to the community that one of them was their hadn't been, you know, publicly released or kind of filtered out to the community that one of them was their penis was cut off. You know, like we do know that it was kind of like already out there, you know? So, I mean, that's the, that's another, another issue, but man, that is something. I mean, it wasn't like publicly confirmed or anything, you know, Gary Gitchell didn't do a press conference and, you know, talk about genital mutilation, but remember that it had

been on the police radio and the paper picked it up and rumors spread and things like that. So it wasn't as if it was this well-kept secret that the police wanted to make it seem like it was. Yeah, it's unfortunate because that could have could have been a big part of the case. But wait until you hear the timeline that Jesse gives for that day. Even after being at the police station for five hours and being questioned already, he still initially gives this timeline. And this is a timeline that the detectives could not make work, no matter how hard they tried, to the point where you can hear them end up trying to convince Jesse that he must have been wrong about the time because he didn't wear a watch. And about what time was it that all this was taking place?

They called me about. I'm not saying when they called you, I'm saying what time was it that you were actually there in the park? I was there about 12. About noon? Mm-hmm. Okay. Was it after school? Had let out? I didn't go to school. These other boys?

They skipped school. They skipped school? They was going to catch their bus or stuff, and they was on their bikes. All right. They were on their bikes so all right they were on their bikes where were their bikes at they they laid their bikes down when they came out there to when they when they hollered for them told them come out there where did they lay their bikes down that's what i'm asking i don't know where they laid their bikes at down there because i was i was behind damien you know way way behind them. When they hollered, I seen the boys.

The little boys came on over. Had Damien seen these boys before? Yes. Has he done things with them before? Or has he just been watching them? Has he had sex with them before? Has he ever had sex with any of them before? No, he's been watching them.

He's been watching. He's been watching. You mentioned earlier that at one of the meetings you went to with this cult, they had some pictures. Describe those pictures for me. They had some houses and trees and stuff. Okay. Had somebody taken pictures of these boys? The trees and stuff. Okay. Had somebody taken pictures of these boys? Mm-hmm.

Were they in the houses or were they in these trees when they took those pictures? They were at the houses. At the houses. Did they take like one picture of one boy? It was in a group. Always three? It was in a group of pictures of three. All three of them would generally be together. How many pictures did you see all together?

I just saw one. Okay. And it had these same three boys in it? Mm-hmm. You're certain of that? Mm-hmm. Now, did you say the boys skipped school that day? These little boys did?

They was going somewhere and like I said Damien and them left before I did. I told them I'd meet them there and stuff. I had to get ready and stuff. I'd meet them there. It was early in the morning so they went and met me up. They went up there and then I came up, you know, laying on behind them. What time did you get there? I got there about 9. In the morning? Mm-hmm.

Of Wednesday morning? Mm-hmm. And Wednesday... What time is it right now? Right now? Yeah. You don't know what time it is? Do you not wear a watch?

I sit at home. My dad woke me up this morning. You don't know what time it is? Do you not wear a watch? I sit at home. So your time period might not be exactly right what you're saying. Right. It was like early in the day, but you don't know exactly what time. Okay. Because I've got some real confusion with the times you're telling me. But now this 9 o'clock in the evening call that you've got explain that to me well after all the stuff happened that night that they done it okay

i went home about noon then they called me at nine o'clock that night they called me okay and what did they tell you on the telephone? They asked me how come I left so early and still. And I told them I couldn't stand there watching it no more, so I had to do something to get out of there. Okay. Who called you? Jason.

And you mentioned you heard some voice in the background? I heard some things. And what else? I think you said that he made the call from his house. He made a call from his house. And Damien was hollering in the background and said, we done it, we done it. What are we going to do if somebody saw us? What are we going to do?

All right, so we're back. Not going to beat a dead horse here. There's multiple things, just quick bullet points. There was a fact where, where the detective said, you mentioned earlier that, then he said something about, you said you had heard some voice in the background.

He didn't say that in that interview, but you said, so all this conversation has already happened. It's already happened. And it just, it opens up too much scrutiny where, what did he say earlier? What did the detectives fill in? And then just to hit on the more glaring thing, as far as the time,

when you're interviewing someone, even if they're telling the truth, they may say something that's inaccurate, like a time, right? You're not supposed to show anything that you would suggest that they're wrong, right? You're not supposed to give any cues. You're supposed to be the same monotone the whole way through, whether they say something that's literally the smoking gun that solves the case or something that's a little off.

Okay, 12 o'clock, got it. You don't start making an excuse for them or making your defense in the interview, right? Like preparing for someone who's going to say later on that was off. Just let it, just take the statement. Jesse could tell that they weren't happy with that answer. They made that very, very obvious to the point where he said, you're confusing me with this.

I don't know how much else you can say other than you got the time wrong. He said, I don't know how to make this timeline work. Right. Now, you could argue if they hadn't done all that, we talked about Jesse's mental capacity earlier. Maybe he can't tell time who knows but you can't as a detective connect those dots for a jury in your interview just let it play out brother just take the statement and shut up I can't say it enough so yeah multiple parts in here where he's leading him trying to correct him and then also there's multiple parts where he's a referring Detective Bridges referring to something that happened earlier in their conversation, but it didn't happen in this recorded interview.

And so I'm sitting here listening to it. And we've heard this whole chunk here. And he didn't say at any point like, oh, yeah. Plus, I heard a voice in the background. He had to bring it up to him and say, hey, but you also mentioned you had heard a voice in the background. And that's when he said, yeah, I heard Damien. So again, you're pulling it out of him in a great world that this guy's telling the truth and they just didn't interview him earlier.

But who cares at this point? You got to put it, if it's not on tape, if it's not documented, it didn't happen. If he said it earlier, then you should have the tape to prove that he said it earlier and that you didn't tell him what to say. Yeah. And that's why I said, you know, I'm beating the dead horse because I'm assuming this is going to be a theme for the next 15 minutes. Dude, it was so funny to me. Freaking Bryn Ridge, man.

When they like cannot make this time work and Gitchell's like, uh, uh. And Bryn Ridge is like, what time is it right now? Jesse's like, I don't know. And then Gitchell's like, oh, I see what you're you're doing he's like you don't wear a watch boy so here's the thing if he had said it was nine o'clock or twelve o'clock and then even though they know something's wrong without indicating to jesse they say by the way just for reference what time is it right now like just the same tone uh It's one o'clock. Okay.

Let the record state that it's actually four o'clock right now, but let's continue. No big deal. But he's trying to explain to them like, yeah, I normally wear a watch, but it's at home because my dad woke me up because y'all knocked on my freaking door in the morning. And he's trying to say that. And they're like, oh, you don't wear a watch. Maybe you don't even know what time it is. Like they're not even letting him speak and explain why he does not have his watch on

and why he normally would. Yeah. No, I just to just to repeat it this is not this is not a great interview we won't be showing this one at the the the next interview school as well we might actually just what not to do yeah bryn rich bryn rich everybody i'm gonna call him brian ridge i'm giving him at least that well but bryn ridge it is for you. All right. Let's continue on. They're going to call me Derrick. I always see people spell your name sometimes D-E-R-E-K and it hurts me. It hurts my heart.

I love when they do that. They're always like, I listen to this channel so much and I know so much about it. I just don't like Derrick and they don't spell my name right. And my name comes across the screen every single episode. They're probably doing a Stephanie where they're like, I'm not going to give you the respect. Yeah, right. I wish they were all that smart. That's definitely not the case. That's definitely not the case. A lot of them are just like, I don't like this guy's face. He's out. Canceled. He's out. They've got like a post-it note on the screen where you are.

Yeah, exactly. They just hate me naturally me naturally i'm not saying all of you are dumb i'm just saying there's trolls in there you guys know you guys are saying just the ones that hate him yeah they're just if you don't like me obviously you're not intelligent obviously okay let's continue on let's continue on okay so before we play this next clip just just a heads up to everybody it is it is pretty just descriptive what they're talking about here. Whether you believe it or not, that's up to you. But either way, just the details that they talk about here, it is a tough listen. So just keep that in mind. Maybe you want to skip over this little section here. If you don't want to hear it, you guys kind of know where it's going, but just wanted to give you the heads up. Now, the knives, was there one knife, two knives?

Was your knife there? Did somebody take you and use your knife? Do you have a knife? I got one knife. Where is it at? It's at home. Okay. The knife that you said Jason was using?

Where is it? I don't know what he done with it because after I left, then that's when I don't know what they done with it. After I left, I don't know what he done with it because after I left, then that's when I don't know what they done with it. After I left, I don't know what they done with it. He didn't tell you he hid it somewhere? I got a feeling here. You're not quite telling me everything. Now, you know we are recording everything. So this is very, very important to tell us the entire truth.

If you were there the whole time, then tell us you were there the whole time. Don't leave anything out. This is very, very important. Now just tell us the truth. I was there until they tied him up. And then that's when I left. After they tied him up, I left. But you saw him cutting on the boys.

I saw him cutting on them. So what else left is there? They laid the knife down beside them, and I saw them tying them up, and then that's when I left. Were the boys conscious, or were they unconscious? And after I left, they done more. They done more? They started screwing them again. Okay.

How were they screwing him when you saw him? Jason stuck his in one of them mouths, and Damien was screwing one of them up the ass. Okay. All right. And the one that they were cutting the penis off of, did any of them are cutting the penis or whatever was being done, did they have sex with him at all? No. Did either one of them?

Jason did. Jason did? Jason was screwing him while Damon stuck his in his mouth and let the boys out. Okay. How did he have sex with that one? He was holding him down, right? Uh-huh. And Jason had his legs up in the air, and that little boy was kicking, saying,

Don't, don't, like that. Okay. He had his legs up in the air. All right. What was to keep these little boys from running off? If just their hands are tied, what's to keep them from running off? They beat them up so bad where they can't hardly move. They had their hands tied down. You said they had their hands tied up, tied down. Were their hands tied in a fashion to where they couldn't have run?

You tell me. They could run. They just had them tied. When they knock them down, they can hold their arms and stuff and hold them down like when you couldn't raise up. And the other one, it just lays up. Okay. and sit hold him down like when he couldn't raise up another one he just lays up okay really no need to uh go over it in detail if you heard it you heard it basically for those of you who decided to skip over it it's very descriptive as far as what happened to the boys from a sexual

perspective not only the assault itself but just the sexual assault that allegedly Jesse Miss Kelly's saying occurred. So it's just more detail about that. It's tough to hear whether it's true or not. Doesn't really matter. Nobody really wants. I don't think any of you guys come here to hear those details. So what was your take on it? It's not true. It's not true because as we know from the autopsies, none of these boys were sexually assaulted. So therefore it is it is not true let me ask you a question you have an autopsy the bodies were in water how do you determine definitively that they weren't sexually assaulted if

there's no semen you would see abrasions in the anus that suggests the you will you would their children there was another thing that was described in it orally sexually assaulted. There would be no indication of that. I suppose not. However, the ME did specifically say that there was no sign of sexual abuse. So. They're probably right, maybe.

But there's been times where we've had sexual assault victims where there's been no vaginal tearing. But I believe to this day they were telling the truth. Okay. where we've had sexual assault victims where there's been no vaginal tearing but i i believe to this day they were telling the truth okay so that that's i'm just saying i don't necessarily believe the truth there's a lot more to this interview that suggests it's not accurate i was going to say there's some trailing off in his his voice when he's speaking about certain things where it almost sounds like when he's answering the detectives, he's not telling them or pulling it from memory. He's asking it as if it's a question. He's looking for some type of acknowledgement from the detectives as he's saying it to suggest that he's on the right path. So there was some trailing,

regardless of what he was saying, more of what I noticed was the tone in which he was saying it. There's certain things, if you just listen to this interview as we keep going, where it's not necessarily pertaining to the case or the specifics of the assault. And it's more just like commonsensical stuff. Like I got a call or I was riding my bike or whatever the case may be. I got there later. He's very confident. He gets louder. He says it with a little bit of bass in his voice. But then when he starts describing these specifics where he could trip himself up, he's a lot more meek. He's kind of unsure of himself. I don't think he's upset about what he's talking about. I think it's more so he's uncertain about what he's saying it, but saying it slower and a little quieter. And he's probably looking at the detectives to try to read their faces to see if he's on the right track or not. And I can't see the interview. I wish we could. But just from the tone of his voice, you do hear when we talk about baseline, when he's talking about his dad, he's talking about certain things, very confident. He's just rolling it off the tongue, no hesitation.

Then when we're getting into these specifics where they really want to dive into the details his his tone of voice definitely changes and some may argue it's because it's tough to talk about i would argue that it may be because he's he doesn't know what he's really saying he's just kind of making up as he goes along yeah or i mean he like you know like said, I didn't want to get into detail about what Aaron Hutchinson claimed, but it is kind of along these lines. So it is possible that the police in that five hours that they weren't recording at some point kind of led Jesse through what Aaron Hutchinson had said. So he's just sort of like trying to keep on that same, that same track.

Yeah. And even if they didn't, it doesn't matter because the insinuation is there now and that's their fault. So regardless of whether they did or not, that's what people are going to assume. And rightfully so. When you're leading them in the interview that's recorded, when you're mentioning things from the previous conversation, you're setting yourself up for failure yeah and right after this there's a break in the tape like the recording stops the the work well the recording stops but it doesn't it doesn't seem that the interview stops because when they come back the first thing that detective bryn ridge says is quote they had them under control you were there the whole time

this was taking place end quote and i think it's pretty clear that Jesse has no idea what he's talking about. And he's saying wild things. And like I said, it sounds like he's just getting wilder and wilder. He's trying to stick to the story of Aaron Hutchinson, which maybe the police have sort of already like filled him in on. And you can tell when he starts to like stray off of that path, they kind of like direct him back and they don't seem to really be happy about the fact that he's kind of not keeping to the script. When they stop the tape, do they say they're taking a break? It just stops. It just stops. They didn't say like, hey, we had to turn the tape over, nothing. Then it just picks back up.

No, you see everything in this clip here. It just says like a break in the tape. Okay. Let's play it then so they had them under control you were there the whole time that was taking place i would say okay one of them was cut on the face real bad is that what you said and one of them was being cut on his penis. Yes sir. Alright. Did you ever use, did anyone use a stick and hit the boys with? That man had kind of a big old stick when he hit that first one. After he hit him with his fist, knocked him down, then he got a big old stick and hit him.

What did the stick look like? Was it like a big log like that or is it a stick? I'd say about that big round. I'd say about that long. About the size of a baseball bat, maybe just a little bit bigger around. Yeah, about the size of a baseball bat. That's what you described with your hands, right? Right. Okay. How long was the knife that Jason was using? He should know that now.

You're describing a knife that would be about six inches long. Is that right? Mm-hmm. And what kind of blade did it have on it? Like a regular, just regular knife blade. Was it a knife that you fold up or was it like a hunting knife that's just one piece? Just a folding knife. It was a folding knife?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Does Damien have a knife? No. He didn't have one that night? He didn't have one that night? He didn't have one that night. Did he borrow yours? No, he didn't borrow mine.

Did they have a briefcase with them? No. You didn't see a briefcase? I didn't see a briefcase. Not unless they left it there that day before it happened. Unless they left it there, they didn't buy it and see it there that day. Have happened. Unless they left it there, they might have sent it there that day. Have you ever seen them with a briefcase before? I seen it that one night. I seen it with them that night.

Okay. What is kept inside that briefcase? They had some cocaine and a little gun. Is that where you first saw the pictures of the boys? Out there in Lake Shore. And you saw the pictures in the briefcase? Mm-hmm. When we had that cult. Okay.

Now, you have participated in this cult, right? Yes. How long have you been involved in it? About three months. Okay. What is, tell me some of the things y'all do typically in the woods as being in this cult. We go out, kill dogs and stuff and then kill girls out there. All right, what do you do with the girls when you're out there?

We screw them and stuff. Does just everybody take turns? Everybody. All have the origins and stuff like that. Okay. When you kill a dog, what do you do with it? We usually skin it. Build a little bonfire and ate it and stuff. Okay. When you're initiating somebody new to come into a a call what actually is done to initiate

that person into the cause we usually we usually you know kill the animals you know see if he knows how to handle the meat stuff after we kill it see if he knows if he can't handle it then he don't eat it okay then he don't get in. Okay, so he kills an animal. You mentioned earlier that he may have to eat part of that animal. What part of the animal would he eat? Part of his, meat off his leg. Meat off his leg. If he can't eat it, then he don't get in.

Doesn't get into the club. No. Okay. Now, on these meetings, have they ever been violent? Anybody gotten mad and gotten in a fight? No. Okay. The night you were in these woods, had y'all been in the water you were playing around in

the water all right what were you doing in the water besides just playing I mean the little boys had they been in the water Did they get in the water with y'all? No, they didn't get in the water with us. Okay. What were you doing in the water? We were just sitting there, throwing stuff at each other. Okay. Were y'all having sex?

No, I wasn't. You weren't? No. Was Damien and Jason having sex? They take turns going up under the water. Going under the water? What were they doing under the water? I don't know.

They sit so far away, they go up in the water and stay for about, I'd say about five, ten seconds, and then come up and the other one go down. Okay. Okay. So they were just messing around in the water. All right, did they call for these boys to come over there? Yeah, they seen the boys, and then they hollered. They've been hollering, saying, hey, and the boys came out there.

Did they call them by name? Uh-uh. They just hollered, and then they just showed up. Where did the boys put out there. Did they call them by name? Uh-uh. They just hollered and then they just showed up. Where did the boys put their bikes? Closed right there before you come in. They laid it down right there. Okay. And I don't know what, after I left, I don I was at the other side. You didn't do anything to the bikes at all? No. Are you sure?

Positive. You didn't touch the bikes? I didn't touch them. Okay. Let me ask you something. This is real serious, and I want you to be real truthful. And I want you to think about it before you answer. Don't just say yes or no real quick. I want you to think about it before you answer. Don't just say yes or no real quick. I want you to think about it.

Did you actually hit any of these boys? No. Tell us the truth. No. Okay. Did you actually rape any of these boys? No. Did you actually kill any of these boys?

No. Did you see any of the boys actually killed? Yes. Okay. Which one did you see killed? That right there. You're pointing to the buyer's boy again? Okay.

How was he actually killed? He choked him real bad, like. Choking him? Okay. What was he choking him with? Like a stick there's a little bit of stinking kind of holding it open today okay so he was choking him to the point where he actually went unconscious so at that point you feel like he was dead yeah okay did any of the other two boys

were you there when they were actually killed? Okay, so we're back from that little clip there my score as this interview is continuing on has gone from a four to Basically a two because I can't get many lower than that because they at least are speaking some type of English But yeah, this is a horrible interview. It really is. I don't I don't know what to say It's one thing to have two different interviews where you're pretending that this is the first interview. But when you can't even keep your story straight as the interviewer, where you're not referring to the previous interview that you're going to pretend didn't happen, you're kind of screwing yourself. So when you mentioned the briefcase out of nowhere. Out of nowhere.

Out of nowhere. These little kids from West Memphis would just be walking around with a briefcase. You just pulled that out of your ass. Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of kids out that way walking around with briefcases. And the reason he wanted to bring up the briefcases is the photos, right? So he had to get them there. He had to lead him down there because-

No, because Aaron said they had a briefcase, remember? But even that, he was going towards like, this was premeditated. He had photos of the boys. So it's just making it seem even more in depth that they knew who they were. Maybe he's also I don't even know if they're smart enough to remember the Aaron interview at that point. I think that he just said earlier that there's the briefcase and there were photos in there of the boys. So they wanted to bring it up somehow on this recording. Then, by the way, I don't even you keep having detective Ridge refer to the or

maybe it's good I don't know but you have one of them keep referring to the cult they always like to say the word cult I guarantee you miss Kelly has no clue what the word cold no idea zero zero word with the word cult means and then you have again can't help himself you mentioned earlier that they may have to eat the animal what he's saying that they did doesn't matter because it's not that significant nowhere did he say in that little interview that section right there oh they have to eat the animal it was just a previous conversation that they had during the many interactions they had before they hit record that he's like hey but

you said that earlier right what is he thinking is going to happen when a defense attorney gets a hold of this? I mean, it's tough. All of this to me would be inadmissible almost. It would be no good. It wouldn't even be allowed. But all that being said, with how bad this interview was, there's just a lot of things here that don't make sense. Again, he's doing the constant more focused more sure of certain things he's saying and then when it comes to details that he has no clue what he's talking about he's kind of just like navigating miss kelly is navigating his way through it and he's not really having to do a lot of navigating because the detectives can't help themselves but fill in the blanks like they cannot shut up it's so hard for me to listen to this interview because they

can't shut up and if they are alive and they're hearing this I'm looking directly guys looking at your brain Are they still alive? I don't know. Maybe their hearts were in the right place. I don't know them I'm not judging them like that. But regardless, this is a terrible their hearts. Oh, we're in the right place They shouldn't be the ones doing the interviews. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what to say But yeah, the interview is not great. And did you hear how he said, no, Damien didn't have a knife, his knife that day. And so like earlier he was saying like, oh, they had knives and then they put the knives to the side, but now they're like, oh, what was Damien?

Did he have a knife? No, he didn't have a knife. Did he borrow yours? No. So now we have Damien without any knife at all, even though Aaron Hutchinson said that all three of them had knives, but now Jesse's not like following that script and they keep trying to like set him back on the path and sometimes he just doesn't get it yeah he doesn't get what they want he's not he's not course

correcting now there may be some things unrelated to the murders that may be true and you see you hear Jesse miss Kelly respond a little quicker could they have been out there before? May they bring girls out there? May they have killed a dog or two? Maybe. I don't know. But you can't use that after you haven't been recording for four hours.

It just loses all its merit. Because you now have to ask yourself, did you tell them to say that? Or did they say it on their own? And we don't know we never will so dude did it kind of seem like at first he was like oh we just like they were just kind of like snatching girls off the street and bringing them into the forest i took it as like you're just bringing like friends or girlfriends that you like you want to go make out in the woods or whatever and make out in the woods huh he was like we take terms with them like

nobody else is talking about this this has never been reported ever that all these girls are in the woods. too young but they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing out there consensually again father two daughters hate it but but i mean it could be something where they're going out in the woods and because the parenting isn't great they're not really knowing the wrong and rights and they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing that's what i'm saying there were certain points where he was talking about stuff like that that's unrelated to the to this case it's unrelated but it sounded like he was a little bit more sure of himself when he was saying it so there might be like maybe more comfortable with the idea of like going out and having girls in the woods rather than but also because that's true whereas the the killing is not maybe he actually did go out with damien and jason to the woods and have sex with girls prior to this and it had nothing to do with

the crime and so yeah maybe that's possible maybe that's why he was a little bit more certain of when he was saying that he was he said it with more conviction but yeah i know it's redundant we're going over it so we can cover it together just to hear what they're saying we don't want to jump to any conclusions but it's just it's tough to take the interview seriously because the detectives themselves are constantly undermining the interview by reminding us that this is like the third or fourth time they spoke about this these specifics and what's worse is the detectives are pretending like they're hearing this information for the first time which leads you to believe what they're doing is malicious right they're not acknowledging if they were in here saying listen we spoke

earlier in an unrecorded interview and you talked about something like if they were just bringing that up they're just i think they're forgetting that this is not a good thing so they're just like you mentioned earlier you get you got to document it and so i know there's going to be people out there maybe in the law enforcement community saying well if they had documented it properly earlier, you got to document it. And so I know there's going to be people out there, maybe in the law enforcement community saying, well, if they had documented it properly, even though it wasn't recorded, it's okay. Yeah, sure. Go with that route. See how well it works out for you. I wouldn't recommend it. That's for sure. Anytime I speak to a suspect, especially in a murder, it's going on, it's going at minimum on audio, but in most cases it's going to be on

both. and we're not talking the 1920s here they could they could have recorded this and they should have they clearly could record it they did they did with aaron too they recorded a video and audio yeah no it's a problem what do you have to say i kind of i mean i think it's just funny like they start talking about the briefcase and we go like super like espionage, like, oh, there's cocaine and a small gun inside. Like what? And that's all because they knew what he was going to say because he said it earlier. And yeah, they could have owned it and said, listen, we did speak to him earlier and they could have done at the top of the interview.

We spoke to this individual earlier. We took a brief written statement because of what was said, which we documented on paper. We're now going to record it. And, and still some people would have a problem with it, but it'd be better than the way they set up this interview with the recording. Initially. That's why I have a problem guys. They set up the recording as if, as if this was the first time they were sitting down

to talk. That's the problem. And it, and it seems like there's some, there's some things going on there that aren't on the up and up, which is a problem. So after this, though, they like kind of lead him down. They do a little bit more of this back and forth. And then they ask him, like, OK, what do you think should happen to these boys? They're kind of like setting him aside.

Like, what do you think should happen to these killers? What do you think are to be done to them for killing these boys? Put away for a while. put away for a while. Put away for a while. Do you think they're sick or just mean? I think they're sick. They're sick. Okay.

Is there anything else you want to add to this statement? No. Why did you not come forward with this information? Because I was scared. Scared of Damien? Or scared of the police? Scared of the police. Are you scared of Damien now?

No. Are you scared of the police now? No. So we've treated you well. Okay. Alright. You're not. So we've treated you well. All right. I'm going to conclude this interview. The time is 318. So the recording of this interview stops again, but it picks up later. How much later does it pick up? That's a really good question. The police log of the recording says

that they started recording again at 3.45 p.m., but then the word incorrect is written next to that time. Gary Gitchell estimates that the recording started again around 5 p.m., and the focus of this interview was to clear up some discrepancies in Jesse's previous statement, specifically the timing, because remember, Jesse said he was in the woods at 9 a.m. and then everything started around noon. But obviously, we know that Christopher Byers, Michael Moore and Stevie Branch were in school all day that day. They didn't skip school. They were there. And the last time they were seen alive was around 6 p.m. Okay, so we clearly heard him give these times, 9 a.m., 12 p.m., etc., etc. All of a sudden, when the recording picks back up, Jesse's recollection completely changed. He now

remembered the boys coming to the woods around 5 or 6 p.m., even though Gary Gitchell says in the recording that Jesse had told him earlier that it was seven or eight and getting dark. So even when Jesse's trying to please the police, he's still saying the wrong thing and they have to continue leading him. When you got with the boys and with Jason and Baldwin, when you three were in the woods and then the little boys come up, about what time was it when the boys came up to the woods i say it was about five or so five or six now did you have your watch on at the time you didn't have your watch on um

aren't you told me earlier around seven or eight or which time is it or are you starting to get dark okay okay well that that clears it up i didn't know that's what i was wondering was it getting dark or or what okay so you and jason and bob uh damien y'all got there right at six is that is that a normal time y'all meet at 6? Yeah. Okay. When you do your cult stuff, does 6 mean something?

I mean, is that a time you normally do meet? Yeah. Okay. So y'all met out there at 6, and then the boys come up about what time? About 7. About 7 o'clock. Okay. So y'all were out there with the boys and all this stuff going on until you noticed it started getting dark.

Is that correct? Mm-hmm. Okay. Now, you're sure about that? Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. You're sure about that? Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Hold on just a minute. Yep, more of the same. You ask yourself what happened between the interview where, if by chance, and this happens sometimes, you have a suspect as they're sitting there, remember some things that they're just replaying what they told you. And they're like, Hey, I'd like to, I'd like to talk some more. And okay, no problem. You go back in there, you'll start the recording and you'll say, listen, it's Detective Levasseur. It's now 345 PM. Jesse Miskelley has informed me that he has some information that he would like to relay to me that he didn't relay in the first interview.

And no way was he spoken to or given any information by me or any of my colleagues. This is something that he initiated and we just want to add it for the record. He wishes to speak to us. So we're starting the recording again. Boom. Now you start. And even if you want to add a little, you know, whipped cream on top, you Mirandize him again, just to make sure. Now you go into the interview. That's not what happened here. Many hours have passed. Jesse Miskelly doesn't seem like the type of guy who knew the time to begin with the first time. So

we definitely wouldn't come back to them and go, Hey, actually this was the time. So yeah, it's just, it's hard to believe anything at this point because it's very apparent or at least highly likely that the detectives are pumping this kid up in between recordings to keep him on track. Now, there's two sides to this. You could say these cops just believe that they got the right people, so they're trying to assist in their investigation, and they got tunnel vision. And that could be, but it's not right. It doesn't make it right. No, it's not right. Or you could go in the angle that they knew that they didn't have the right guys and they were just trying to pin it on them. And they just needed this kid to give them, to implicate them. So pick whatever side you want. Me, I'm leaning more towards these cops.

Decided initially, these were the guys. And as soon as this kid gave them anything, they ran with it and they just kept pumping them and and maybe i'm not giving them enough credit Maybe they knew how much they were leading them and they just didn't care. I don't know i'm not in their brains but at minimum this is not the way you want to do it, especially if you want to get a conviction, which is Weird to think about because I do know that eventually they do do get a conviction Yeah in this case so goes to show you the problem with the justice system. If this interview was a big component of that conviction. It just seems

super irresponsible to hear all these discrepancies and then continue. Yeah. There's a lot. I don't mind the interview taking it, but you can't cherry pick, right? You can't like focus on the things that he might get right after some serious meeting. Yeah, you just got to let it happen. That's why you just shut up and you just listen. A lot of interviews. That's what I always tell you. Just shut up and listen. Yeah. Ain't that the truth? A lot of the times, initially what you would do is you say, hey, start to finish. Just tell me what happened. And you just let them go from literally start to finish. Like tell me the whole story and as they're talking you're

writing down questions you're writing down certain elements that you want to capitalize on now you go back to the beginning and you break it down with individual questions about specific things but to kind of hold their hand while they're giving you answers it's not in most cases it won't work at court it clearly worked here but it it won't work at court. It clearly worked here, but it shouldn't have. What do you think would have happened if they told Jesse and Miss Kelly, just go start from finish? What happened?

It would have been a very short interview. It would have been so short, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that's why they didn't do that. That's probably the reason that they had to guide him through this, you know, and through piecemealing multiple conversations that they had with him him through this, you know, and through piecemealing multiple conversations that they had with him throughout the day, they developed a series of questions and they wanted

to make sure they hit all of them in the interview. Even in this last interview with Gitchell, there was another thing that he tried to get. He tried to get Jesse to bite on and Jesse was just like over his head. What am I going to say? He's done at this point. He's like, I've been here for like all day, man. What else can I do? What do you try to get him on? Oh, at the end.

Yup. What'd he say? So one, we won't waste any time. So one, he said he threw in the word cult there again, but then he tried to see if there was any, if,

if Jesse would pick up on the number six, that six, six, you know, meaning the devil. Oh my God. Yeah. That's what I took from it.

You're probably right, dude. Any significance to the word six by any chance that you decided to meet at six every day with your little cult friends about the devil? The Satanists? Was it six? Was it six? And then did you guys write 666 on the ground

or anything by any chance? Like we changed the police report number to 666? So they have this whole narrative that they're going with. This was a cult. This was a sacrifice, right? And so this was a point where he could say, let me remind the audience it's a cult. And by the way, six, right? Here we go.

It's that like exposition. So I picked up on that. I rolled my eyes on that one. It's like, okay. And Jesse's like, no, man. It's six o'clock. And Jesse's like, I said I was in a cult. What else do you want from me at this point?

Yeah. He's like, I don't know what cult means, but I'm assuming it means a group of friends. So I'm going to go with it. Because. The three best friends that anyone could have. They might have told him off. A cult means just three good guys who hang out and swim together. Oh, yeah.

We're a cult for sure. We swim all the time. We definitely do that. Yeah. We're a cult big time. Oh, my god all right so let's let's move on the the interviews are over i mean they they did they just kept doing more of this right this is this is the like you said we can't beat a dead horse but uh according to jesse miss kelly jr the thing that pushed him kind of over the edge that that sent him from denying any knowledge of the murders or of satanic activity to implicating and accusing his friends and also implicating himself, was a tactic that Gary Gitchell had used during a portion of his interview that had not been recorded.

Apparently, Gitchell took a piece of paper and a pen and he drew a circle. And then inside the circle, he drew three dots. And then he drew a bunch of dots outside the circle. And Gitchell then pointed to the three dots inside the circle. And he told Jesse, listen, these three dots represent you, Jason, and Damien. And all the dots outside of the circle, that's the place surrounding you. So Gitchell looked at Jesse and he said, do you want to be inside the circle or outside the circle? And, you know, Jesse decided he wanted to be outside the circle.

We know that Gitchell did something like this because he admitted to it during the circle. And, you know, Jesse decided he wanted to be outside the circle. We know that Gitchell did something like this because he admitted to it during the trial. He said it was more of a, you know, stop straddling the fence. Whose side are you on kind of thing. And Jesse was also shown a photo of Christopher Byers on the autopsy table. This photo not only, you know, severely impacted Jesse to the point where he said, quote, it was just a kid who was beat up in the face. But when I looked at it, it shocked me, end quote. But he said the picture was not Christopher Byers. He said it was Michael Moore. Now, keep in mind, the circle conversation, as well as perusing these autopsy photos that was done before the tape recorder went on. So at some point before

they started recording, the police must have gotten Jesse some more clarity about which boy was which. In Detective Bryn Ridge's written notes covering portions of the interview that were not recorded, he makes no mention of the circle. He makes no mention of the autopsy photos. He also makes no mention of a six-second audio clip that was played for Jesse. And this clip was the voice of a little boy saying, nobody knows what happened but me, in like a super creepy way. Now, this was actually a clip

taken from the interview that they did with eight-year-old Aaron Hutchinson, but Jesse was not told this. He wasn't told who it was, what it meant, nothing. In fact, they gave him the autopsy photo of Christopher Byers and then played that clip while he was holding that picture in his hand and looking at it. So that's kind of a weird tactic. But Gary Gitchell would later testify that after this tape was played and after he saw the autopsy photo, that's when Jesse immediately said that he was ready to tell them what happened. And I think you said it earlier. We've talked about so much, but then wasn't there also some insinuation that there'd be reward money? Oh, yeah, there was reward money. Right. So there's reward money. And I'm assuming it would have been inferred

off record. Hey, listen, if you're helping us, you would be entitled to that money. Well, they say that that did not happen. Well, Jesse and his father say that it did. Right. And so based on what I heard in the interview, I'm going to go with Jesse on this one and his father, because it seems like a lot of those tactics were being employed during this. And these detectives may justify the means to, you know, to get to the end where they're like, hey, listen, we got to do what we got to do to get there. We'll deny it later. That's not the way you do it. That's not how you that's why good cops get bad names by these guys thinking they're doing the right thing because they just want to get these quote unquote monsters off the street. But they're so focused on individuals that they may miss the real killers.

And there was a reward like there legitimately was. There's a reward. And then you have this poor kid, $40,000 or whatever you said it was, a lot of money at that time. Yeah, a lot of money. Thinking, Jesus, not only can I get myself out of this, but I also can change my family's life. You know, this is a lot of money. Change my life, yeah.

So there's multiple reasons why this kid would be incentivized to suddenly have a change of heart. And it sounds like just by his tone, I don't need to know the detectives. I don't need to know Jesse Miskelly. There are parts in that interview, mainly the parts that discuss the details of the case where Jesse seems very unsure of himself. Definitely. Yeah. And that's a problem because if he's pulling it from memory, he's going to come right out and tell you what happened. And there's going to be no delay in it because he's just going to be telling you exactly what happened. And something that traumatic, he would have a very good

recollection of what took place. And also, I feel like if you took part in something like this, this is going to be one of those things that you bring to your grave. Like you're not going to admit to it unless you're caught dead to rights. Like this is not something you're just going to be like casually talking about doing. Right. All right. So let's quickly go over some of the problems with Jesse's statements and why some people believe that Jesse was unable to demonstrate knowledge of the crime. First, the presence of a knife. When Detective Bryn Ridge brings it up during Jesse's first recorded interview, he says, quote, OK, now when it's going on, when it's taking place, you under you saw somebody with a knife who had a knife. End quote. As I said, up until that point, at least during the recording, there had been no mention of a knife. You know, Jesse had never said he saw anyone with a knife.

We also have the time of the crime with Jesse claimed they were in the woods around noon at 9 a.m. But later, Gary Gitchell says that Jesse told him it was 7 or 8 p.m. But we never do hear Jesse say that. The scene of the crime was also described by Detective Ridge saying, quote, we're going to correct that even further. That's the east side. Memphis side is the east side, and you're standing at the top of the bank on the west side, end quote. Jesse had made no such statements prior to Brynn Ridge saying this, and when Jesse's describing injuries to the boys, specifically Christopher Byers, he says the victims were beaten and one had a cut on his face. And this definitely could have come from the autopsy photo that he was shown, in which Christopher Byers had multiple

bruises on his face and a 3 16th inch laceration on his face. Blogger Martin David Hill points out that Jesse would often be presented with information in the form of a question. For instance, Gitchell asked if anyone had used sticks to beat the boys, and Ridge mentioned that the boys had been tied up. And these are all kind of like posed to him as questions, but it sounds like it's something they're trying to kind of make him remember instead of asking him a question. Because if they were going to ask him a question, they would have said, what did they use to beat the boys they wouldn't have said where did they use sticks to beat the boys things like that exactly that's interview 101 yeah absolutely at one point uh

gary gitchell asks if jesse ever saw the boys in the water and in his first interview jesse said no but in the second one he said that j Jason and Damien pulled the boys into the water. Now, we know that one of the boys appears to have been castrated, and when asked where the boys were cut, Jesse had responded at the bottom, and instead of asking to be shown exactly where, Gitchell volunteers that information. And Ridge, like, once again, I can't get over Brynn Ridge asking Jesse, like, more than once, do you know what a penis is? I just think it's super odd that they would think this teenager was with it enough to answer questions without the presence of an adult or lawyer. But they were concerned that he didn't know what a penis was. More than once, Jesse misidentifies the boys he's talking about when shown pictures and he's directed to look at the caption, which tells you which boy is which. The police know that all three boys had been found with their legs tied to their arms, yet Jesse says only their arms were tied.

He even said that one of the boys had their legs up in the air and kicking. Jesse said the only reason they didn't run away was because their attackers had beaten them so badly. He never mentions their legs being tied. And Jesse claimed that Christopher Byers had been choked with a stick, which from the autopsy, according to the medical examiner, that did not happen. In fact, they said that Chris Byers' throat was one of the very few places that he didn't have many injuries, actually. But at no point knowing this does Chief Gary Gitchell stop the questioning and try to figure out what's going on. By dinnertime,

Detective Bryn Ridge, Gary Gitchell, Deputy Prosecuting Attorney John Fogelman, and Municipal Court Judge William Rainey were preparing an affidavit in which Gary Gitchell claimed, quote, Jesse Jr., during the course of the interview, gave specific information that only a person with firsthand knowledge could have had, end quote. Judge Rainey not only signed off on search warrants, but also warrants for the arrests of Jason Baldwin and Damian Echols. That night, Jason and Damian were actually together in Damian's trailer. They were marking Jason's last day of 10th grade, and Jason's mother had told him to, you know, go out and have fun. She would arrange for child care for his little

brothers while she worked that night. She said he deserved to celebrate his achievement. Damian's parents, Pam and Joe, were out for the night night hanging out at the newly opened Splash Casino, and they'd gotten a movie for Damien and Michelle to watch. Dominique had come over as well, and they were all settled in watching Leprechaun when the West Memphis police banged on the door of Damien's trailer to arrest him and Jason for murder. And Jesse was obviously already arrested for murder at this point. Yeah. And so the main reason they got an arrest warrant for these individuals was based on that interview that we spent an extensive amount of time going over and that's why we did because when you want when you ask the

question part one what do they arrest these guys how do they get him like what was the big what was the linchpin here where they actually were able to say okay we got him now it's mainly this interview. Yeah. And this interview is not good. It's not good. And it's, it's from someone who doesn't seem certain of themselves at specific points. And there were even things that you pointed out there. I agreed with 90% of it. The one argument I would make is the tying of the legs together that could have been done. If Jesse was telling the truth about everything else, right? If none of this other stuff is true, there could be a world where he said after they tied him up, put him on the ground, he took off

running. Well, maybe when they dumped them in the water to make them less buoyant, they tied their legs to their hands to kind of curl them up and make them smaller. Okay, you can make that argument. But that's just one thing. It doesn't change the totality of what you laid out. There's a lot in there that it didn't seem like Jesse had firsthand knowledge of. It seemed more so like he was hearing things from other people, hearing things from-

From the police. From the police. And then obviously during that interview, getting nonverbal cues and maybe even some verbal cues from detectives of when he was on the right path and when he was off. Yeah, he could have been getting tons of nonverbal cues. Exactly. I think he was. I think that's why what you're hearing is when he's like. Pausing and stuff.

When he's trailing off, he's looking in their eyes and they're wincing or sometimes like you do to me. They're already nodding their head. No. Like before you finish, you know, you're not saying something they like so or maybe they're like pointing he's like oh it was michael moore and they're like like yeah i mean that's even more overt but it could be just something that they don't like i said they might not even know like you're talking to me right now if you're watching on youtube and you're saying something that i don't necessarily agree with i would be like this if you're saying something that's right on i'm probably probably going to be like, and then all, I mean, again, if you can't

see that in audio, I apologize. But then if you're saying something that I know is completely wrong, all I got to do is go like this. Does that, and you know, you don't, but you know, you're doing that, right? I mean, yeah, but it could be something where these guys are in that moment that they think they solved this case. Cause for a second, let's just put this out there. And I know people are going to be like, oh, yawn, Derek. Let's assume these guys aren't just like the absolute worst people on the planet. I mean, the detectives. I don't think that they are. Yeah. I don't think so either, but I know when it comes from me, it doesn't hold as much weight, which I understand. But let's assume for a second that these guys just truly wanted to

catch the people who did this. And they really believed that it was these three boys that's wrong. And you know, that end of the story there, there's no way really more to say, but at the core, they truly just wanted to solve the case. And so their emotions got the best of them and they were making a lot of mistakes in this case that maybe resulted in them going after the wrong people from the beginning. And the actual killer or killers was out there laughing at them essentially. So that's unfortunate to consider that being the case. And just one more angle for the people who believe that the West Memphis Three did this. Let's say for a second they did. The way this

interview was conducted is not the way you have a case hold up in court long term and that's kind of why we are where we are today so if they are responsible they felt like jesse was the person to go after my recommendation if they were trying to do it the right way is you get jesse in there you get him just to give an overall statement right you don't start filling in the get him just to give an overall statement, right? You don't start filling in the blanks, nothing. You give an overall statement. You sit him in a room, right? You make sure everybody knows he's there. And then you bring in Damien and Jason and you tell them in another interview room, your boy just gave me the whole story. So now it your turn either you're gonna tell me what happened or you're going down for everything because what he just told us now he might not have told you much just a couple things but they don't know that and now you start to get interviews from all of them recorded of course after being mirandized and you see if maybe one of the

other ones crack you don't just rely on this one guy who has a serious history with him and may be deemed mentally incapable of giving you a statement on his own. So that's where I think some of the problems were. You know, I will say, like, obviously, we don't have a perfect system now, but I am so grateful that police are so much more careful now. And we got like body cameras and, you know, because like, yeah, because there's you can still say they're corrupt and they do things. But it's like so much easier to catch them when they're corrupt. And it's easier to say like, oh, you're corrupt. And this wasn't just a mistake. Like you actually meant to be nefarious here.

Yeah. Yeah. And the body cams I say to everybody when I talk to cops, they help both sides of the aisle. Yes. You know, well, if you're a good cop. Yeah. Yeah. If you're a good cop, there's been many cases where someone will say, oh, he grabbed my

boob or something. And then they watch the footage and it's, you know, it's not on there at all. They're in public. It happens all the time. So it's one of those things where it's a benefit to everybody, keeps everybody safe and accountable. So yeah, that's, I mean, is there anything else? This is a long episode. I think we covered a lot though.

This is a long one, but you can't really give the full picture without going through I didn't know we were going to go this in depth I don't know until we're doing it, but you need to go over the interview this in depth because this interview According to the police is the smoking gun So we really had to dissect it and break it down and let you guys come to your own opinions My takeaway if he was telling the truth, I can't say he was because of how poorly it was conducted. It was so bad. I'm honestly surprised it was allowed to go to trial. And like, I mean, it just shows you

different times, different times. Yeah. It's so poorly conducted. I can't put a lot of weight into it. And that's unfortunate because if it had been conducted the right way, just minor things where if he had just, this was the first interview, no previous engagement. And he just came out of nowhere and said, yeah, you know, we were there and he did this with a knife to his genital area. And he was giving details that wasn't, wasn't in the newspaper yet. You know? Yeah.

If, if he, but like Gary Gitchell was like, oh, he, he showed guilt, guilt knowledge. He did not. Well, I mean, yeah, that's subjective. And then also you would ask them at the end of this interview, for the record, have you spoken to anyone about this case prior to coming in here,

prior to meeting with us? What have you heard from other people? Have you talked to parents? Have you read anything? Is there anything that might have influenced your answers today? And they can say, they might lie, but they can say, might lie but they can

say no i i've my i overheard my parents whatever it might be he did say that sometimes like p you know he'd be like oh where'd you hear then he'd be like oh this this and that so did um it's aaron aaron uh hutchison he said oh i heard from dana moore and they still don't listen so like what does it matter at that point yeah no it's it's's, it's tough. It's tough to look at this. If this is what they went off of, it's, it's tough to see how a jury found them. It kind of felt like that's what they wanted to do. So that's what they were going to do. Like they weren't going to listen to anything that didn't fit with their narrative. Clearly any final words now that we're three hours in, if you stay to the end, wow. Go ahead. People stay till the end. I agree. Yeah, no, I know they did.

All right. So listen, obviously, we appreciate you guys sticking out with us. That was a long one. Some parts were a little harder than others to listen to, but we can't go over these cases half-assed. We got to go through it all together.

We did. I think we leave this one thinking, okay, this is what they were eventually arrested on. How do we feel about the interview? Your own personal opinion. If you believe this interview, then you think they made the right move. If you left this interview, don't let us influence you. If you left this interview thinking, wow, that was really poor.

And that's what a judge signed off on. Well, then the whole case, the whole charge itself is built on a shitty foundation. So what do you really have? And so we'll go into the next one. What's what do you think in another? I know you hate when I do this to you. I don't know. I don't know because next we're going to go into the trial.

So maybe we can cover that in two. Okay, so maybe two more parts and we'll cover that and then we'll give our final thoughts and we'll we'll we'll call it a day. As always, we appreciate you guys being with here. This was a long one tonight. So thank you to everyone who made it to the end. If you made it to the end, what emoji we're going to put in the comments if you're watching on YouTube?

Definitely a pineapple. A pineapple. And let's add a glass of wine because at this point, even though I'm not a big drinker and I could use a glass of, oh, look at Stephanie's drinking right now. So a piece, a pineapple and a glass of wine together. Absolutely. So guys, appreciate it. Stay safe out there.

We will see you next week. Bye.