Crime Weekly - S3 Ep120: West Memphis Three: The Trial of Jessie Misskelley (Part 6)

Episode Date: April 14, 2023

West Memphis, Arkansas is located in Crittenden County and is directly across the Mississippi River from Memphis Tennessee, but in 1993, West Memphis and Memphis were worlds apart. Memphis boasted a healthy and growing population of over 620 thousand, while West Memphis had just over 28 thousand residents. But Memphis, TN struggled with high crime rates, with 1993 setting a record for the most homicides in one year, a record that wasn’t broken until 2016. West Memphis Arkansas had a more small town, laid back feel, and as cliche as it sounds, people felt safe leaving their doors unlocked and letting their young children play outside all day with no supervision. That was until May 5th, 1993, when three eight year old boys rode away on their bikes, eager to expel the energy they had built up all day while sitting in their second grade classrooms at Weaver Elementary School, but they never came home. It wouldn’t be long before the residents of West Memphis and then the world found out what happened to Stevie Branch, Michael Moore and Christopher Byers. Their battered and mutilated bodies were found the next day in a swampy wooded area known to locals as Robin Hood Hills, and the community of West Memphis felt a shockwave hit their community that they would not recover from for some time. Within a month three teenagers were arrested and charged with capital murder, and it wasn’t long before whispers of witchcraft, devil worship and occult killings rippled throught the homes and businesses of West Memphis, and those whispers eventually turned into a loud roar, a roar that might accompany an angry mob looking for someone to blame for an unimaginable tragedy, akin to the infamous witch hunts that are dotted throughout history. This is the story of six boys from West Memphis, Arkansas; three were brutally murdered and stolen from this world far before their time, the other three were marched to the proverbial gallows, guilty in the court of public opinion, and found guilty in an actual court of law. Six lives destroyed, six lives forever changed, six lives eternally tied together. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. HelloFresh Go to HelloFresh.com/crimeweekly50 and use code crimeweekly50 for 50% off, plus your first box ships free! 2. SimpliSafe Customize the perfect system for your home in just a few minutes at SIMPLISAFE.com/crimeweekly. Go today and claim a free indoor security camera plus 20% off your order with Interactive Monitoring.

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one pound increments as you get stronger, so you're always challenged. Tonal lets you choose from a variety of expert-led workouts, from strength to aero hit to yoga and mobility to keep you coming back for more. For a limited time, go to tonal.com to get $500 off your tonal purchase, plus a free four-year warranty. That's tonal.com for $500 off, plus a free four-year warranty. Tonal.com. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are diving into part six of the West Memphis three case. And this is going to be one of the last parts. So it will disappoint those of you who are enjoying this and it will make those of you who are not

very happy. And that is the most I can say about it because I see such mixed reviews. Like some people are like, oh my God, I'm loving this. I want it to keep going forever. And some people are like, oh, I hate how long your multi-parters are. And it's like, I, you know, it's so hard because I want to make everyone happy, but I don't know how to do that. We just got to do what we, what we feel like we need to do. The same thing happened with Adnan Syed when I was like, hey, I'm over, I'm fatigued on this one. You know, you're never going to please everyone. So you just, we just got to be honest with each other. We always talk about it. We find a happy medium.

Some people will like it. Some people won't. That's why I think it's good that we have this and we have Crime Weekly News. You know, we have a little bit. I think we have something for everyone. So do you have anything to say before we dive in? Two things. I want to apologize.

I won't make it long because a lot of you have probably just watched Crime Weekly News two seconds ago or maybe a day ago. I want to apologize for the background. I'm moving into the new studio. Anyone who's following us on Patreon or follow me on social media, you know I'm super excited about this. Stephanie has known about this from the beginning. I want to expand the show. I want to make it better. I've always been recording out of a makeshift bedroom that was turned into a studio. Not ideal. Stephanie's in a recording booth, which is phenomenal. That's why her audio sounds great. So I'm currently moving from this space to the new studio. And the other

reason I need new studios, I'm coming out with a new project that Stephanie's been helping me out with that I've hinted about. We'll get more into it as it gets down to it. I'm super excited about that as well. But you may see a difference in my background. You may also hear a slight difference in my audio, although Stephanie made fun of me on Crime Weekly News because she said she can't hear it. Because I have nothing in this room anymore, there's a little bit more reverb. I don't think it's going to affect people who are watching on YouTube as much as the audio people, but either way, I notice it. So for those of you who are sensitive like I am to the echo,

I do apologize for it. But hopefully, knock on wood. There's zero. Zero echo. Zero echo. If there's an echo and you hear more of an echo in this episode than my normal recordings, put a one in the comments. If not, put a two if you don't hear a difference.

And if you put a one, you are lying. Getting blocked. No, you're lying. Because I literally, if you hadn't said anything i would have not noticed i hear it i hear it bothers me it's actually bothering me but i'm like super sensitive to it and i think when i'm doing like the anyways it's going the voices in your head also yeah they're fighting with it they're fighting with it but either way it'll hopefully be one week next week i'll be in the new place, I'm hoping.

And the sound should be even better than it's ever been on my side. It should sound more like yours where you have that dead sounding where it's just like, I don't know, I can hear the difference. You're looking at me like I'm crazy. So I'm going to stop. I sound dead. I sound dead sounding. That flat audio, it sounds super crisp.

Yeah, it's like kind of like contained, contained, I guess. It's because you have no reverb in your booth because you have all that, those egg cartons on all sides. So any voice that doesn't go into the mic is absorbed by those panels. Whereas the hard surfaces like in here, it bounces off those surfaces back to the mic. So that's where you hear the echo. Echo, echo, echo. But that was really it. And then also I noticed, I said it on Crime Weekly News, Stephanie's had her merch for an entire week and she's already chopping the necks out of them.

So if you're watching on YouTube, she's already destroyed the shirt already. It looks good though. It looks so cute. No, it looks good. I'm glad that you kept the logo intact. Of course. I mean, I tried. We need to get like some tank tops too.

There were some people commenting even like when they're buying merch like, hey, because you mentioned it and like Stephanie said she wants to do like crop top. They'd now, they want to do like a female version where I guess there's like a shirt you can, that's already comes like that. Yeah. And I won't, I want to get like craps hoodies too. Like so fun. Yeah. There was a, a woman that was, it was interesting that I was having the conversation with her, but she was like, Hey, for women who have, you know, are, have larger boobs, like there's a specific shirt that works good for us. And I was like, yeah, man, I got that problem all the time. I was like, I know exactly what you're talking about. We'll work on it. What is this? Do you know what she's talking about? Cause I would like to know about that

shirt. I don't, maybe it was just a flex. I don't know. It's a great flex. She's like, she's like, listen, can you get this shirt that's made for women who have perfect bodies? Because it's always so hard to find clothes that fit us. You should have seen me. I'm like on my computer. I'm like, how do I respond to it? So I just literally wrote and she'll be in the comments. I literally wrote, OK, I'll let Stephanie know.

We'll work on it. Exclamation point. I got nothing. Derek's like, I don't think that I feel comfortable talking. There's no way I can answer this that I feel comfortable talking about this. There's no way I can answer this well. Congratulations. It's 2023 and I even looking at this, I'm about to get canceled. Yep, exactly. But that was all I had. So it may be a nothing thing. You guys may not hear it, but that's the only thing I had. I'm ready to dive into it.

I thought last week's episode was great. I didn't even realize it was three hours until we got the final edit back that it was that long, but that's because we were so into the interview where we were chopping it up, breaking it down. So I thought it was a really good episode. Yeah, it was good. Well, we're going to talk more about Jesse and Miss Kelly this week too, because he was arrested, right? On June 3rd, basically right after he gave all of his confessions. Police arrested Jesse and Ms. Kelly Jr. We know they also arrested Damian Echols and Jason Baldwin around like midnight. And all three of these teenagers were charged with three counts of capital murder each. The next morning, the lead investigator, Gary Gitchell, he held a press

conference to announce the arrests. And during the press conference, Gitchell was asked, how confident are you about this case? How confident are you about these arrests on a scale of one to 10? And Gitchell announced on a scale of one to 10, he was at an 11, which is crazy considering we heard what Jesse Miskelly said, right? Last episode, we heard what he said. We heard all the things he said wrong. And we heard what Jesse Miskelley said, right? Last episode, like we heard what he said. We heard all the things he said wrong. And we heard the police like lead him through that. And yet Gary Gitchell said he was at an 11. And that's funny to me.

I mean, it's so, that question is so a loaded question. As a police officer, any law enforcement people that are out there listening to this, if you're arresting someone, you should be at an 11 on a scale one to 10. However, when the media asks you, there's no right answer. If you say, ah, I'm at about a four on a scale of one to 10 after you just arrested someone, that ain't good. And if you say an 11, you're just setting yourself up for failure later. So just don't answer the question and say, listen, we feel we have an improbable cause

making arrest. We'll let the courts decide. But don't double down by, oh, I'm 100% certain. You can't be. 11. Okay. He's more than, he's 110% certain when you're at an 11. He could have just been like, if we weren't confident, we wouldn't have arrested them.

That's it. That's the perfect answer right there. Because you can't also say like, yeah, no, I we weren't confident, we wouldn't have arrested them. That's it. That's the perfect answer right there. Because you can't also say like, yeah, no, I'm not very confident, but we're rolling with it. We'll see what happens. I mean, I'm at a one, but hopefully by the time I'm done with them, I'll be at a 10. Exactly. So you can't win on that question. So just, yeah, probably shouldn't answer at all.

Well, it was decided that Jesse Miskell Kelly would be tried separately from his friends, Damian and Jason. And the reason for that was because basically at the time of the arrest, the only thing they had against any one of these three teenage boys was Jesse's statement. And that is not a supposition on my part. I'm not being like hyperbolic or exaggerating. The prosecuting district attorney at the time, John Fogelman, he admitted this after the trial in an interview with the Arkansas Times. He literally said, quote, basically, the only thing we had was Jesse's statement, end quote. And he also acknowledged that, like, that wasn't going to fly during a trial, right? Like, the statement

of an accomplice alone would not be sufficient to put these kids on trial. There has to be something else that connects a person to a crime. So the West Memphis police and John Fogelman set out to find that something else. Now, there were various issues with the arrests. Like, it's so hard to touch on everything on this case. But basically, Jason Baldwin, he's 16 years old at the time, he was arrested. He was put into a cell without being allowed to make a phone call. His mother wasn't notified until the next day. Things like that, that, you know, obviously it's common knowledge this is wrong and shouldn't be happening to a 16 year old kid. Yep. And these are all the things that come up when, when you're trying to evaluate the credibility of the interview. This even happens on DUIs. I had this happen to

me before where I did a DUI. And unfortunately for me, and I should have known this, but I had the person facing me as I was doing a horizontal gaze nystagmus, which is basically just the following of the finger. And I had them facing me and my overheads were still on. My red and blues were still on. So they made the argument at trial that basically that distracted him and he wasn't able to focus between us because it doesn't matter now that the guy was smashed out of his mind. But on that technicality, he got off, right? And that's just the way it is. So these are the little things that can contribute to an evaluation of a police officer on scene when they're interviewing someone or doing a DUI, where even if you're trying to do the right thing, if you don't at court, it could become an issue. Those are things that could hurt your case. So yeah, that's on a smaller scale, but those are the types of things you have to worry about because it's not just a result, it's how you got there. And there's a lot of things that you said, you haven't covered every

little detail, but there's a lot of things that could have contributed to the stress that Jesse Miss Kelly was under, which may have resulted in him giving the statement that he did. Yeah. Normally in a normal case, this whole thing, like, oh, Jason Baldwin is arrested at midnight as a 16-year-old when his mother's not there and taken away because he was at Damien's trailer, taken away, put in a cell, not allowed to call anybody, not allowed to call his parents, not allowed to call a lawyer. His mom's not even told what happened or called by the police until the next day. Like, normally for me, that would be like the biggest, you know, issue with a case. But in a case like this, there's so many other bigger issues that they have footnotes, basically.

And that's a problem. And there's no surprise to me that these three men, by the time they got out, but that they eventually did get out because there was so many things wrong with this investigation. That little thing. We act like this is a little thing. This is not a little thing. It's a violation of his civil rights. Right. So if his constitutional rights, this isn't a little thing. We act like this is a little thing. This is not a little thing. It's a violation of his civil rights, right? So if his constitutional rights, this isn't a little thing. But comparatively

to the mountain of other bullshit that these police officers and even the district attorney pulled, it seems insignificant. Like, oh, and by the way, you know, the 16 year old was thrown in prison with no due process. It's just whatever another day in West Memphis Arkansas yeah I mean that's why we go through the process the way we do where I don't know much about the case the specifics about as we're going through it because up until episode probably four I was like I don't know where we're going with this because I don't see anything that would lead to an arrest at this point never mind a conviction and then it wasn't until episode five where you hit us with the quote unquote confession. And I'm like, okay, well, that's something. There's nothing corroborated there, nothing that would show that he's telling the truth or whatever, but it's a start.

And it's basically, no, that's it. Right after they got that interview, that confession, they went and locked up all three of them. They got warrants signed by a judge and that's it. That's their case is this confession. So I'm interested to hear more about it. But yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent. It just seems like not only does this interview itself have problems, but to think that that's the only thing they have, it's a really big issue. Yeah.

Have you ever done like a jigsaw puzzle? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like when you're sure a piece fits, like there's like 700 pieces and you're like, oh, this piece has to fit. Like it looks perfect. And you're like shoving it in there. But for some reason, it's not like flush.

This is just you. Really? I was about to say, that's your personality. I could see you being like, no, this piece definitely goes here. I know it does. And they're like, no, maybe it doesn't. And the designer of the puzzle is like, no, it definitely doesn't go there.

You're like, oh no, but it does. Watch and I'll show you. And you're standing on that piece. Like ramming it in. Yeah, you're like, it's going. One way or another, it's going. And then you get it in there and you're like, see, told you it goes there. And it's like all mangled and like deformed,

but it's in there. And you're like, told you. Sorry, not sorry. Well, that's what the West Memphis police did with this case. OK, you know, you never done that, though, for real. Like, because you can't find the other piece like you. Some of us just look for the other piece. But I do look for the other piece.

And like there's sometimes where you just cannot find another piece. And you're like, this is the only piece it could possibly be. Why is this not working? Like, I know there's other people like that, but. Hold on. It's raining down. Makes sense. Got it. Okay, cool. So Gary Gitchell told the public and reporters that Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin had been suspects since early in the investigation. He said, quote,

it was like a big puzzle. The pieces started falling in place to make a clear picture, end quote. Now, Gary Gitchell and Bryn, what was his name? Bryn what? I forget his name. Bryn Ridge. So many comments about his name, by the way. I'm not even, we're not even getting into that, but. They shoved those puzzle pieces in until they were mangled.

Okay. Like they, those pieces were all like, they cut them up to make them fit. They're not flush, but they're like, here's the whole picture starting to show up here. And then obviously the paper starts printing stories with the word cult and Satan in the headlines. And people came out of the woodwork to talk about how they always knew there was something off about those boys. Youth minister Rick McKinney claimed he had spoken to Damien Echols two years prior at a church revival. And McKinney said, quote, he was very adamant about the fact that he couldn't go to heaven, that he had made a pact with someone and he said he was going this that I just I don't believe it. I think people just wanted to like be a part of something. And Damien's father, his biological father, Joe Hutchinson, told the Baxter Bulletin that he knew the police were trying to frame his son.

And he felt that Damien had been arrested because the heat that had been put on the cops to make an arrest, it had gotten so intense they had to pin it on someone. Hutchinson said, quote, for the past month, they've been following him. They've been harassing him everywhere he went. I know without a doubt in my mind that this boy didn't do it. End quote. On Friday, June 4th, the day after their arrests, all three teenagers appeared before a judge to officially hear their charges. And this court appearance was interrupted by Terry Hobbs, stepfather of Stevie Branch. Terry sprang out of his seat when

Damien Echols was brought in and he yelled at the teenager, quote, I'll chase you all the way to hell. I'll see you dead, end quote. After they had heard their charges, Jesse, Jason, and Damien were transferred from the West Memphis jail to three separate undisclosed locations for their safety, and it appeared that this was necessary because as they were escorted out, a crowd of 200 people rushed towards them, screaming insults like baby killer and freaks. And a few even shouted out, shoot him from his location. By the way, that really bothers me

because they're teenage boys. Like, obviously we don't know for sure whether they're innocent or guilty of this, right? We just will never know because the police butchered this and botched this investigation so poorly. Great point to make, by the way, because a lot of people don't make that point. And I'm so glad you said that. They probably didn't do it, but there's a chance they did it, but we'll never know. I think they probably didn't.

I know you feel that way, yes. Yeah. But the fact that they're like 16, 17 and 18 year old kids who maybe like I think, you know, 95 percent probably didn't do this. And they're being like let out in handcuffs and people are like throwing things at them and screaming like freaks and like shoot them and stuff like how must that feel horrible? So from his location, Jesse, Miss Kelly Jr. wrote a letter to his parents taking back all he had said to the police and telling his family, quote, I hope that y'all don't hate me because I did not do it, end quote. Jesse also told his court-appointed lawyer, Dan Stidham, the same thing. You know, basically, like, I didn't do this. Like, I confessed, but I didn't actually do this. And at first, Stidham didn't believe his

young client. And he said, quote, of course, initially, my take on the situation was that anybody who would confess to such a crime obviously did it. It was unfathomable to me that anybody would confess to a crime who had not committed it. I figured my client was obviously guilty. And so my initial thought was that my only goal was to prepare him to testify against his co-defendants and hopefully to work out the best possible plea bargain I could for him. That was the only thing I figured we had going for us. We were hoping simply to avoid the death penalty, end quote. I think that was very, and this is 1993, like we have to remember that, in the early 90s, yeah, that was probably super common to be like, why would anybody confess to a crime they didn't commit? I mean, even now, sometimes we're like, this blows my mind. Why would anybody do this? You know, and we have false confessions, pressure put on these people. Also, we have people who just simply to like, I don't know, get attention or I don't know. But like clearly, Jesse, Miss Kelly will show you that that could backfire. And maybe you should

not do that. You know, like to just in fairness to him, if he didn't do it, I feel like there might have been an element here where the way he was speaking, he was completely separating himself from the crime for the most part, other than going and quote unquote, chasing down one of the boys. He didn't commit any crime in his mind. Again, simpler mind. He's thinking, hey, me just being there isn't a crime. So he's looking at it like, okay, I'm going to implicate these two other guys. I didn't do anything. They're going to go to prison, but I'm going to get $40,000 or whatever it is and change my family's life. I think that might've been, I'm not trying to help him out here, but at the time, young boy,

we already know his mental capacity was not where it should be. And then you have these grown adults, these police officers who you're supposed to be able to trust telling you things when the recorder isn't going, right? So you're thinking, no, I didn't do it. I didn't do it.

I'm not saying anything like, wow, it's too bad because the person who helps us out, it's going to get a lot of money. And you know, if you didn't actually do anything, then you're okay. So, okay. Yeah. Let's pop that recorder back on. Cause you guys, are you guys sure that Damien did it with, with Jason? Are you sure? Yeah. Yeah. We're sure. Okay. Yeah. Well, what can I do to help? I saw him do it too. Yeah. And then that could be And that could be it right there. Do you want to be in the inside of the circle with the criminals and the child killers? Or do you want to be on the outside of the circle with the good guys?

Right. And this is why, just to reiterate what I said last week, we don't know if that was said or not. But we do know that there was another conversation that wasn't recorded. So with all the issues in this case, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that this might have happened. And we do know that they were talking to him about the reward money. Like if you're a logical person, you don't even have to have a low IQ like Jesse and Ms. Kelly Jr. If you're a logical person, you're going to be like, the police are talking to me about the reward

money. They wouldn't be like saying, I'm going to get this reward money if I'm going to go to prison for this crime. Right? That's right. That's right. Yeah. And young kid, so many factors that played into this where if they did do it, the detectives botched this interview. They botched this case in a lot of ways. And it was tough to listen to last week, man. I said it. I'll say it again. That was a tough one. Well, Jesse's lawyer, he said he tried to reason with Jesse because, you know, the hope of the plea bargain existed only if Jesse was willing to repeat his story in front of a jury and like throw Jason and Damien under the bus. But Jesse kind of would go back and forth. Right. When his father was present, he insisted that he'd made everything up. But then when he was with his lawyers alone, Jesse was asked to recite what he told the police and he would try to and keep like confessing.

But there was major inconsistencies. So after a few months of this, Dan Stidham, his public defender, he kind of ran out of patience. And he said, quote, I went back to the jail and I said, you've got to level with me. Were you there or were you not? And he said he was not. And I said, why would you have told me all this time that you were there? He said, well, because I didn't want to die in the electric chair. I explained to him that we were on his side.

And that's when I began to realize that he didn't know what a lawyer was. He had no idea what a defense attorney was. He didn't understand the concept. To him, a lawyer was just a person who was part of the justice system. He thought we were detectives. He didn't understand that we were on his team. That's when I began to see Jesse Miss Kelly Jr. in a different light. At the time, he had a weird haircut and tattoos. He looked like an ordinary everyday street thug, but the kid was handicapped. Bill Clinton had just

been elected president of the United States and everybody in the state of Arkansas knew who Bill Clinton was, but Jesse Miss Kelly didn't, end quote. And I think Bill Clinton is like from Arkansas, by the way, right? Yeah, he was the governor or something in Arkansas. Yeah, so that's a concern. Yeah, he's a big deal. Yeah. Out there.

It's kind of like, I mean, he's a big deal everywhere, right? That's fair. But you would say like, okay, he just got elected president. Like maybe if you didn't follow politics and maybe if you were living in like new york or something you might not know about bill clinton but somebody who's from arkansas probably would and jesse miss kelly just had no idea so it gives you an indication of just like where he's at well just the fact that he didn't understand the concept that he was there to protect him to defend him not necessarily an extension of the police department that right there in and of itself

is an issue that he doesn't understand that he's entitled to representation. Yeah. If that was never even a normal 17 year old, if that's never explained to you and somebody just shows up and says, all right, tell me what happened, Jesse, so we can go to trial. You're you're not like if you don't trust the police and you've already kind of been through this, like you're not going to just assume this person's here to help me. They sent this person. They're wearing a suit. You know, they're grilling me. They're just like the other people I've talked to. So, all right, let's take a quick break and

we'll be right back. All right, so let's go over the evidence that the police gathered together before their case went to trial. They had the statements of Vicki Hutchinson and her eight-year-old son, Aaron. Remember, Vicki claimed she'd gotten close to Damien. He'd brought her to this witch's meeting in the forest, and Aaron claimed a lot of things. But one of his last stories was that he'd been present and watched as his friends were tortured and murdered by Jesse, Jason, and Damien. But luckily, Aaron's legs weren't tied up, so he was able to run away and escape with his life. Police records show that the detectives collected almost 600 items of physical evidence, including more than 100 pieces of clothing, 87 hair samples, numerous fingerprints, blood, urine samples, 17 knives, three sticks, three hammers, three ropes, two razors, an ice axe, a candle, a hook, a mask,

and a mason jar filled with water. They didn't take any sticks into evidence before they talked to Jesse. And then remember, Jesse was like, oh yeah, we use sticks, you know, to like beat these boys with. And then freaking Bryn Ridge, this idiot, a month after, it was like July 4th or something, a month after he talks to jesse he goes back to robin hood hills and he finds like just like three or four random like big sticks that he thought looked like they could be used to like beat somebody with and he he took them and he put them into evidence there's no sign that these were used in a murder there's no blood on them there's nothing that indicates these were murder weapons but because jesse said they used sticks brin ridge

went back and he took all the sticks that he thought could have been used to you know murder somebody i mean it'd be tough to pick out those sticks but i will say especially now with where this case is looking forward to seeing where it's at you know knowing we have systems in place like mvac be really easy to decide to figure out if there's any type of dna in the crevices of those sticks or rocks or whatever they whatever he sees but yeah i don't know how you would go back there i could see being proactive and saying hey let me go back there to see if i can find any sticks that would look like they could be used as a weapon and is there anything on them that would suggest suggest blood anything like that, that would suggest they could have been used as a weapon? And you take them in.

You take them in. You put them into evidence. And although technology at the time might not be able to do much with it, we've had a lot of cases. Crystal Beslanas, which was one of them, right, with the rock. The rock. Go now in the new world we're in right now with technology and science where you can take that stick or rock that you had from 20 years ago and test it against known individuals to see if it's their DNA on those items. So I think that's what the West Memphis Three are trying to do right now. So I get what you're saying, though. If he's just out there randomly picking up sticks in the woods, no less.

That's what I'm saying. It's the woods, man. There's lots of trees and stuff there. Like, how did you say these are the sticks? These are the sticks that look like they make sense. And then go and put them into evidence, even though you have no idea if they were actually like evidence. You know, and that's that's the case with a lot of these things. Like they found, I think, three knives like in the not the general even not even the general area just like in

Robin Hood Hills they found like some knives and once again no blood on these knives no proof that they were used in any murders they took them in anyways which I get that oh yeah you definitely take those totally right but then like you have 17 to 20 knives that were like collected we're going to talk about that more specifically but that were collected in the course of this investigation. And not one of them is proven to be a murder weapon. Like no sign of blood, no, no, even proof that any of these knives belong to any of these three teenagers. Yeah. No, it'll be interesting to see.

I want to learn more about that because you would definitely take the knives. Obviously, we try to link them back to the individuals who just arrested or at least link them to see. I want to learn more about that because you would definitely take the knives. Obviously, you would try to link them back to the individuals who just arrested or at least link them to someone. So I don't have an issue with them taking them, but what are you going to do with it? And just by having those knives doesn't automatically prove whatever theory you have about the case. Unless you're the West Memphis police and prosecution. But anyways, from all of this physical evidence, the Forensics Crime Lab was able to only come up with a Unless you're the West Memphis police and prosecution. But anyways. Oh, God. From all of this physical evidence, the forensics crime lab was able to only come up with a few fibers. Right.

They took they basically. This is so sad. They took the victims, the three boys, and they combed their bodies for fibers and their clothes for fibers and things like that. And then they took all of these like pieces of clothing and like household items from the homes of Jesse, Jason and Damien. And then obviously tried to see what kind of stuff is on their clothes and on their items to see if you could find anything similar or if you could compare the two. And with all of that, they were only able to come up with a few fibers from the homes and the personal belongings of the accused that they described as being microscopically

similar to fibers found on the bodies and clothings of Stephen Branch, Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore. And the evidence that was gathered from Jesse, Jason, and Damien's home didn't even really seem to have a rhyme or reason to it. According to Martin David Hall, quote, the seizures appeared utterly random. One pair of pants was taken from Miss Kelly's residence, six from Baldwin's, and three from Eccles. A throw rug was seized from the closet in the Baldwin household and a piece of carpet from Eccles, but no floor items came from Miss Kelly's trailer. Two blankets, one from the grandmother's bedroom and a sheet were collected from Eccles' house and a heating pad cover was taken from the Baldwin place. The seizures included the parents' clothes, four house coats or robes like Damien's grandmother's robe was taken,

and clothes from siblings. A child's Granimals shirt would play prominently during the trial, end quote. So like one of Jason's brothers, you know what Granimals is? No clue at all when you said it. It's like a children's clothing brand that they sell at Walmart. So one of Jason's little brothers, like Granimals, sure, they took that into custody. Okay, now I know a pair of blue pants. There was a green cotton fiber that was also found on those blue pants, along with three red cotton fibers. A red rayon fiber was found on a black and white checkered shirt, and two red cotton fibers were found on Michael Moore's Cub Scout shirt. Two black polyester fibers and a blue polyester fiber were found on a knife that

was in a black leather sheath. Now, before I explain what that means, I have to tell you that during these searches, once again, police came up with about 20 knives. Three were allegedly found near the crime scene. Four were retrieved during searches of the defendant's homes, as well as the home of Damien's pregnant girlfriend, Dominique Thier. Six came from other suspects, and one was retrieved from Spring Lake in Lakes other suspects, and one was retrieved from Spring Lake in Lakeshore, and we're going to talk more about that in a minute. So the knife the fibers were found on was described as a three to four inch boot knife with a black leather sheath. And this knife had actually been given to the police by John Heath, the principal of the

junior high school. Heath claimed that a student named Jason Crosby had come to him and confessed to hiding a knife in another teacher's room. Jason said he didn't Jason Crosby had come to him and confessed to hiding a knife in another teacher's room. Jason said he didn't know where the knife had come from, someone had slipped it into his backpack, and when he found it he panicked and he felt like he had to hide it so he wouldn't get in trouble. Also, according to John Heath's report, he had talked to Jason Crosby the day after the arrests and Jason had claimed he knew the teens who had been arrested were guilty because he knew Damien was involved in Satan worshiping but they spell it satin so uh Jason Crosby actually was the one who spelled it satin so satin worshiping because he killed

animals and ate their flesh so every single person who eats meat is now involved with Satan worshiping. And he said he was scared to say anything at the time that he knew that they were into Satan worshiping because Jesse Miskelley Jr. would kill him. Later on September 2nd, 15-year-old Jason Crosby was interviewed by the district attorney, John Fogelman. And at that time, Jason claimed he hadn't said anything about Damien being a Satan worshiper or a Satan worshiper. And he said he didn't said anything about Damien being a Satan worshiper or a satin worshiper. And he said he didn't say anything to the principal about the three teens being guilty either. He did confirm that someone had slipped the knife into his bag, someone he didn't know. At that time, Fogelman told Jason Crosby that this knife was significant because they had found fibers on the knife that connected back to the three accused boys. So

specifically, two black polyester fibers were similar to fibers from a black t-shirt that belonged to Damien Echols, and a blue polyester fiber was similar to fibers from a blue toilet seat cover at Jason Baldwin's house. So Jason Crosby would be given a polygraph test, and then at that point, he confessed, like, I actually do know where I got the knife from. I got it from another student. This other student's name was Rick Appling. Rick had brought the knife to school for protection. He'd given it to Jason Crosby. And so then the police talked to Rick Appling and they were like, OK, so when did Damien get this knife? And Rick Appling was like, as far as I know, Damien's never had this knife. I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I don't even know that, dude. This is my knife. And I gave it to Jason Crosby. And I don't think that Damien's house. The red fibers on the victim's clothing also was similar to fibers found on that same blue muscle t-shirt. Three red fibers from the victim's clothing were found to be similar to fibers from a red and white pullover shirt found in Jason's home. Now, the thing was, the blue muscle tee did not belong to Damien. It was somebody else's in his house.

And the red and white pullover shirt was that child's granimal shirt. So that didn't belong to Damien or Jason either. In fact, many of these same fibers that they found on the victim's body were found on clothing taken from the Moore household, the family of Michael Moore. The point is, this was West Memphis. Everyone shopped at the same Walmart in town. So the importance of these fibers that were deemed not even to be identical by the forensics lab, right? They just said that they were microscopically similar. The importance of the fibers was super, super low because the fibers found on the victim's bodies and their clothes could have come from the clothing of anyone in town, basically. The fibers,

which would become a huge part of the trial, as there was very minimal evidence. So this was like the only physical evidence they had. And so they held onto it and they really like played it up during the trial. Those fibers weren't even close to being the smoking gun that the prosecution wanted them to be. This is 93-94. So I'm glad to see they're trying to connect the case through fibers. That's good. But overall, I would hope, even if they weren't able to process it at the time, by keeping the shirts, the clothing of the victims, anything around them that was directly connected to the victims, you would keep that, you would preserve it correctly in the evidence locker. And so that down the road, you would be able to pull fibers and DNA from those items, not necessarily fibers from a pillowcase, but more so hair fibers or pubic fibers, something of hairs that would directly link to someone else, another person, right? Maybe that's the people you arrested. Maybe it's not, but at least something that would directly connect to one of those individuals. And it wouldn't necessarily

cancel it out by, like you said, they all shop at the same clothing store. The fibers might are similar, but not identical. If they find your DNA on the victim, as we already know, but that's hard to replicate right your DNA is your DNA so would they have been able to do that at the time 93 94 I don't know DNA was not that great at that point but now they would be able to and so doesn't help the case then but yeah I think what you're saying there it's not trying to diminish the work that was attempted I mean let's give some credit I'm glad they were trying to do that it seems like their intent was more to connect the guys that they already thought did it to the crime

as opposed to just finding out who did it so not good but the fact that they were at least doing some investigative work right trying to use science to confirm what they thought which by the way you shouldn't be doing but just to trying to connect the dots right right? I like the effort, but there are a lot of issues with it. And a lot of those issues you just laid out as far as how available are those fibers, where, how prevalent are they? How many people, if you went into their home in that neighborhood, would you find the same type of fibers in their home as well? That's the issue. Yeah. That's the issue. They're from like transfer of anything. They could have been there from transfer of the police that were like pulling them out of the water and stuff who also are shopping at the same Walmart, you know? I hope there's a part to this story.

And I do feel like some of the headlines I've seen, it might be the case, but specifically the shoelaces, things that we more likely than not the offender or offenders touched. Those items got to be placed in a bag, preserved, put somewhere where if they were done correctly, there might be some degradation, but that DNA would still be able, you'd still be able to go in there through the processes we have today and maybe pull some DNA from those shoelaces. More than likely, you're going to have the victim's DNA on there, but you're also hopefully going to have the offenders as well. So things like that, things where based on the crime scene itself, you things like that, you know, things were based on the crime scene itself. You would presume that the offender had touched it at one point, obviously based on some of the things about this case, you've said right out, it doesn't appear

they were sexually assaulted. So maybe not much there, but you do have a brutal murdering. It was very, the assault was, was, I try to say without saying too much, these kids were beaten, right? And so you would think there would be some form of restraint on behalf of the offenders trying to hold them in place while carrying out this assault. And so fingernail clippings, hair, brushing of the hair, trying to get as much as you can off of the victim so that whether it's then or now, you can go back and process whatever you find and hopefully identify some DNA that doesn't match the victims, but may potentially match someone else who was a suspect at the time. So for the record, there's no DNA found anywhere at the

crime scene or on these boys' bodies that connects them to Damian, Jason, or Jesse. Now, there was some stuff found, and we're going to talk about that when we get into the episode where we discuss John Mark Byers and Terry Hobbs, the stepfathers of Stevie and Chris, because there is DNA and blood and stuff on things that they own and also in the shoelaces that may connect these two men to the crime scene so but but there's nothing that connects damian jason or jesse like as far as obviously they tested against them and no match they tested it against yeah well they tested it against the the west memphis three the three teenager yeah no match no okay and then they didn't test anything that like across john mark byers or

terry hobbs like they didn't even look at these across John Mark Byers or Terry Hobbs, like they didn't even look at these people as suspects basically until that now, until the documentary came out and then they started testing stuff and then they were like, oh yeah. And so not to jump ahead, but because a lot of people out here are very familiar with this case. I've been seeing some stuff, even some recent developments where the West Memphis Three are trying to get the evidence, whatever it was, retested or tested again. There's been some, again, we'll get there, but there's been some back and forth where they're trying to fight that, whatever it might be. But that's what the West Memphis Three are currently trying to do because of these things

that you're talking about right now. There were items found that did contain DNA. They want them retested because it's not good enough for them to be out right now. They want to be completely exonerated. And I think that a lot of people also want to know like, well, if not them, then who? Yeah, 100%. Because that's, and that can get lost in this a little bit, right? We're talking about the West Memphis three, but there are three little boys who were killed. And if it's not them, then that means the people who did it or the person who did it may still be out there just walking around or may have served been out there for the rest of their life just living their you know whatever their best life whatever they wanted

to do so yeah it's important to get those answers for multiple reasons yeah and i feel like if i'm damian jesse or jason at some point after this entire saga of years and years, you're going to feel a little bit like inextricably like connected to the three victims in a way where it's like, OK, they were murdered and everyone's looking at me. I did not do this and they have no justice now. I have no justice and they have no justice. Right. In their eyes, there's six victims now. And now I have some of my justice back and I'm exonerated in a way. And now we need to give them some justice. Right. In their eyes, there's six victims now. And now I have some of my justice back and I'm exonerated in a way. And now we need to give them some justice. Right. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Let's take our last break, actually, and we'll be right back. So what would have helped the West Memphis police would be to find a murder weapon, obviously. And as I said, they collected

like 20 knives during their investigation. One of them had to be identified as the murder weapon right like that's a lot of knives you're getting them from the suspects um i know jason's mother like personally handed in a knife to the police you know she was trying to be helpful and she didn't think her son anything to do with that you got people turning them in there was another person who might have been a person of interest that they got some knives from, and we're going to talk about that in the suspects portion. But basically, they collected all these knives, and not one of them was identified as the murder weapon. There was nothing on any of these knives to suggest that they'd been used in three brutal murders. So as the date of the trials got closer

and closer, and they had no evidence and no murder weapons, obviously the state's starting to panic. Six months before the trial, DA John Fogelman reached out to Gary Gitchell and suggested that divers be hired to search a lake behind the trailer park where Jason Baldwin and Dominique Teer lived. Now, we aren't sure exactly what made Fogelman so sure that there was a knife in this lake, but a diver with the Arkansas State Police claimed that he'd been told exactly where in the lake to look, and he was only in the water for a short time before he pulled out this knife and handed it over to law enforcement. This knife had a serrated blade. There was also a compass built into the handle and the words,

Special Forces Survival, Roman number 2, on the blade. On November 18th, the day after the knife was pulled from the lake, Jason Crosby, remember he's the one who already handed in a knife, he pops back up into the case and he told the police, oh actually Jason Baldwin stole a similar looking knife from me a year ago and when I asked Jason like where did it go, Jason told him he'd traded the knife and a trench coat to a relative in exchange for a bike. Damien's ex-girlfriend, Deanna Holcomb, also told police that Damien had owned a similar knife and she'd seen him carrying it around in the pocket of his trench coat. Now, during the trial, medical examiner Dr. Frank Peretti would

testify that he could not be sure what kind of weapon or object had been responsible for the wounds on these three boys. And specifically, they were focused on the castration of Christopher Myers. Like what could have made such like a ragged cut? And, you know, on the stand, Fogelman got Frank Peretti to like admit like it could have been a serrated knife like this one that was found in the lake behind Jason's trailer. But despite the medical examiner not being able to pin that specific knife to the murderers, John Fogelman, during his closing statements, held up a grapefruit and using the knife taken from the lake, began to scrape and stab at the fruit, recreating the wounds found on the boys. And he said, quote,

a knife like this with this serration pattern caused the injuries, some of the injuries, to Chris Byers, end quote. Even though, dude, Dr. Frank Peretti, the medical examiner, literally said, like, I cannot say for sure that it was even a knife. And, you know, like, yes, could a knife with a serrated blade like this possibly have caused these kinds of injuries? Yes. But I can't say for sure that it was. And John Fogelman did not care during the closing statements. He was like, a knife like this that looks like this, exactly like this knife that we found behind Jason's trailer that's been tied to him. This definitely caused these injuries. So that was another thing that they brought up during the

appeal that basically he just like straight up just said whatever he wanted and didn't really care too much about the testimony of the medical experts that he brought in to, you know, talk, talk on the stand and tell people about their medical opinion. I think it's one of those things too, where we talk about experts all the time where you can bring up four or five of them and depending on what, what side of the aisle they're on, they'll tell you to a certain degree what they can without jeopardizing their own licenses. Yeah, but he did the autopsies. Dr. Frank Peretti did the autopsies on these three boys. So it's like, if he doesn't know, who will? Yeah. And we have it all the time where you have the pathologist, I'll be the first to tell you. And I said it before, we had a pathologist on a case

that I worked that was on breaking homicide, Devin Schmidt. I think the pathologist might be good at what he does, but he got this one wrong. Still think that to this day, as I'm sitting here talking to you, I brought in another pathologist who I think is frankly, one of the best pathologists in the world. And she had a different opinion. Now now some could argue that because she was uh dr conti dialis shout out to her love her some would argue that she came to that conclusion because she's a colleague of mine i would argue that she came to that conclusion because she was more aware of the oh she took into consideration the outside factors point being rambling a little bit here you can have situations where you have the

pathologist who works the case because there is some level of subjectivity there where they're interpreting the facts their own way, right? Like the facts are the facts, but how they view or perceive those facts are different than a medical expert next to them. So I agree with his assessment on this. Like, I don't think you can say for certain it was a serrated knife who caused it. So sitting here, you're probably going, okay, Derek, well, what's the point of this? But there is situations where we might cover a case down the road where I or you disagree with the pathologist, even though they're the one that conducted the autopsy. They just may have.

We just don't agree with that. Did you forget the Michael Peterson case? The pathologist on that is like, please, Deborah Radish,orah freaking radish yeah you do not like her but i mean that's that's the point i'm trying to make is like it's not it should be the case but it's not always and there are situations where you'll have other experts who may not necessarily perform the autopsy but a lot of the findings the way they they're written up, they don't change, right? So unless their original pathologist was altering those findings, then any pathologist can read the report if thorough enough and interpret those findings in their own way. And I think that's what a lot of these secondaries-

And there's pictures. Yes. There's pictures too. Exactly. Pictures and also just like whatever the numbers are, as far as what they pulled out, what the results were from certain tests, they can look at that and maybe interpret a different. And Devin Schmidt, it was this cocaine in her system, right? It was, there was a lot in her system, but it wasn't absorbed yet. It wasn't, it hadn't been digested.

So the argument was by this pathologist that, oh, that, that could have killed her. And the reality is it never entered her bloodstream. It was just like it was in her system right before she was killed, allegedly killed. My pathologist, Dr. Conti-Duala, said, yeah, there is a lethal amount in her system, but it was never absorbed into the bloodstream. So therefore, it wouldn't have caused her death. It couldn't have at that point. Again, two different experts, two different doctors, two different opinions.

Yeah. And I mean, later you'll find out, you know, we're going to talk about this, but once the case got publicity, we got all these like notable medical experts coming on to help the defense, to help Damian and Jason and Jesse. And I forget exactly who it was, may have been Warner Spitz or somebody else, but there's a bunch of like high profile people. And they came on and they said, listen, this wound from, you know, on Christopher Byers, where he was castrated, that wasn't even done by a knife. This was done by these like river turtles, you know, and then they showed how their teeth are like very kind of like ragged. And if, you know, something is sort of like dangling in the water and is fleshy, that these sea turtles are attracted to that and, you know,

will come up and chew on it and like chew it off and eat it off, basically. And they did like experiments to show you that sea turtles do this and the kind of like pattern, like serrated pattern they leave behind when they do this. So you're right, like it's subjective, whoever's looking at it. Dr. Pretti said, I can't say what kind of weapon did this. And the other experts said this wasn't even a weapon. It was turtles. And who am I to disagree with them, right? That's the whole point. They're seeing the same photos, but giving alternate reasoning behind it. Like, hey, this could have done it or this could have done it. Who's to say they're wrong? Who's to say they're wrong? If they can demonstrate or recreate a situation where, I would hate to say it but they

do a live experiment to show how these these types of cuts or injuries would be sustained through a turtle who am i to disagree with them it's a plausible it's just as plausible as a serrated knife yeah exactly especially if you can't say for sure that's the whole point here is yeah it could be a serrated knife but it could also be just equally be these other things as well. That's the point you got to get across here is there's nothing saying one way or the other. One's more plausible than the other. They're all possible. And at the time of the trial, that knife, that lake knife, it was never tied to any of the three defendants. But years later, it was discovered that the knife had probably belonged to Jason Baldwin at one

point, but his mother had thrown it into the lake a year before the murders. So a neighbor of Jason's, Joseph Samuel Dwyer, he said he'd seen the knife in Jason's possession. He also saw Jason's mother, Gail, throw it into the lake because apparently she didn't want Jason to have it. So it may have been the same knife that he took from that other Jason, Jason Crosby. And then, you know, his mom threw it in the lake. And maybe Jason Baldwin didn't want to tell Jason Crosby, like, my mom threw your knife in the lake. So he said, well, I traded it to a relative. But either way, allegedly it was in that lake a year before the murders. So it could not have been the murder weapon.

And like I said, there's nothing on it as far as like blood or any sign of anything to prove that it was a murder weapon. Oh, and then it turns out because like we were all like, how did John Fogelman know where to look in this lake? Right. Like seems like he had inside information. Did he plant this knife? Like people were wondering, did he plant it? Well, it turns out Gail, Jason Baldwin's mother, had told Fogelman. Yeah, Jason, here's a knife he has. And he had another knife, but I threw it in the

lake a year ago. So John Fogelman, knowing that Jason's mother said she threw it in a lake a year ago, knew he would find a knife in that freaking lake and knew exactly where to look for it. So he told the divers where to look for it because she told them where she'd thrown it in. Now, would Jason's mother have told Fogelman that she threw a knife in the lake and where to find it if she was concerned that it could have been a murder weapon. Absolutely not. Now, did John Fogelman be like, oh, we got to like do something here. I need something. Let me go get that knife that I know has been in there for a year, but might actually make a good prop for me to slice up some grapefruit during the trial.

I hope that's not the case, but it could be. Anything's possible. I always say, I'm trying to find different ways of saying anything's possible. I'm working on that. So the trial of Jesse Miskelley Jr. happened first. It began in January of 1994, and it was revealed during the prosecution's opening statement that, once again, the only evidence they had against Jesse was his own confession, which he had since recanted. Jesse's defense team told the jury that the only reason their client had confessed was because of his low IQ and the fact that he was highly suggestible. Jesse also had an interest in removing the immediate stress factor of being questioned in a police station for multiple hours, so he said what he thought they wanted him to say

so that he could go home. His lawyer, Dan Stidham, said that what Jesse told the police was factually incorrect in many important areas, but the police kept interrogating Jesse even though they knew the information he was giving them was wrong. Stidham also said, quote, the second thing that the police will rely on is the fact that only someone who was there could have known these things, and therefore Mr. and Ms. Kelly must have been present. Well, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the evidence will show that everyone in West Memphis knew what happened to these boys. It was common knowledge throughout the city what had happened, what injuries the boys had sustained, where they were cut. Everything about the crime was common knowledge in West Memphis, Arkansas, end quote. Also, Dan Stidham said, quote, the West Memphis Police Department had what I refer to as Damian Echols' tunnel vision.

And what I mean by that is, and I think what the proof will show is, that they had Damian Echols picked out as the person responsible for this crime from day one. I also think the proof will show that they literally rounded up anybody and everybody they could and brought them to the West Memphis Police Department and questioned them regarding their knowledge of Damien Echols, end quote. Jesse's defense team also claimed to have an alibi for him at the time of the murder. They said he was 40 miles away in a different county doing like roofing work, but apparently Jesse had left early that day. Like he said he had left, I think at four or something, but he ended up leaving a couple hours earlier. But still, they could prove that he was like in transit at least, but he probably was in West Memphis around that six o'clock, 630 time. So it's actually say, you know, we know we talked about the alibis and I think

episode two or three, they're not as strong as you would like, right, you would like to have something definitive. But there's a lot of other things we're looking at it. Well, we're not just focusing on the fact that go they had alibis couldn't do it. It's just one of many factors. So I think we both and I'm glad you said it. We both agree. The alibis aren't great. They're not like, oh, hey, slam shot. Can't be in two places at once.

He wasn't in Oklahoma when this happened. You know, they're not that strong. No, dude. But I'll tell you what, when I'm 17 years old, I don't have a strong alibi. It's true. You know, I'm all over the place. I'm on my bike. I'm going all over the place.

Like I'm, you know, with family, maybe I'm visiting with friends. Like I don't have a cell phone to show you where I am, at what time. There's not surveillance cameras on every, you know, street corner. Like, it was much harder. And Damien, at least, had several people who said they knew where he was at that time. And the eyewitness, that woman who was related to Domini who said she saw Damien and Domini like leaving Robin Hood Hills, that's fine. But where's Jason Baldwin come into this? Because Domini is not the one that was arrested. So if you saw Damien and Domini leaving the woods right around the time of the murders, why was Jason Baldwin arrested but not Domini Teer, who allegedly was with Damien right

after the murders? and another question for you if domini tier was there why doesn't jesse miss kelly mention her at all in his statement yeah even if she was just a spectator nobody mentions domini in their statements and some people said like jason had longer hair and maybe like looked like domini oh come on no they did they said that but domini was i think like you know, quite redheaded and Jason was blonde. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, like I said, the two witnesses you have, you have Jesse, Miss Kelly, and obviously this witness who's they both can't be right. They both can't be right. And if she's saying Domini tier, that's either because she knew who Domini tier was or she was showed a photo pack and identified Domini tier in a lineup. Either way, Jesse, Miss Kelly, who was apparently there for most of the incident, never mentions Dominique Thier being there.

So one of them's wrong, or they're both wrong. And I also say, we're going to talk about it in a second, but one of the police officers says the time frame from the murders was like 6 p.m. on the day they went missing to like 1 p.m the next day when their bodies was were found so if you're opening it up that wide anybody could be yeah anybody could be the one you don't you don't need to have an alibi at that point if you're damien or jason or jesse or anybody because that's a huge window of time where this murder could have happened and nobody's going to be accountable for all that time. Like a lot of that time is sleep in time. So and how many people are going

to say, well, I was at home asleep alone. That's right. You know, so Detective Bryn Ridge was the first person called by the prosecution after going through the missing persons investigation, the discovery of the bodies, the murder investigation and the police interrogation of Jesse Miskelly Jr. Dan Stidham asked ridge some questions he asked hey was anything found at this crime scene to indicate that these boys had been murdered in a cult killing did you find candles did you find upside down crosses did you see the numbers 666 carved in trees and brin ridge responded quote well sir i'm not an expert on ault type killings, end quote, which is code for no, absolutely not window of opportunity during which the murders could have occurred. That was 6.30 p.m. on May 5th to 1.30 p.m. on May 6th, which was the time the bodies were found. And Stidman says, well, you know, the boys had been at school that day, right?

And Ridge says, yeah. And Stidman says, and you knew that there was eyewitnesses who saw the three boys around 6, 6.30, you know, near their homes. And Ridge is like, yeah. And Stidman follows this up with, well, you know, the murders could not have happened at noon like Jesse claims they did. And Ridge responded, yep, that's right. Stidman wanted Ridge to tell him why he and Gitchell during the interview hadn't clarified this with Jesse. You know, at some point when they like were going back over a story, say like, Jesse, are you sure it happened at noon or something like that? And Detective Bryn Ridge was like, well, we did. And Jesse's lawyer, Stidman, he was like, you did after you started re-recording again, but you stopped recording. You didn't clarify with him on the recording. And then you picked back up the recording later. And then you were like, okay, Jesse, let's clarify this time because this doesn't work. And so you're not really doing what you're supposed to be doing to get factual information. And that's the problem, right? Whether that's true or not,

that's what the defense attorney wants the jury to believe and who's to dispute it. If it's not on paper or it's not being recorded, ultimately it's going to be who tells the better story to the jury. Is it going to be the prosecution that says, hey, that's not what happened. This is what happened. Or is it going to be the defense's narrative? Hey, listen, it wasn't until you stopped the recording, there was a break, you clarified for him, you put words in his mouth, that that's when he told you what you wanted to hear. Isn't that correct? Obviously, the detective is going to go, no, no, no, no, no. But again, it's ultimately, that's why I say these defense attorneys that don't only have to know the law, they have to be good storytellers.

They have to be showmen. And the person who's more convincing to that jury will, in most cases, walk out the victor. And that's what, especially if the evidence isn't overwhelming one way or the other. I think that the defense put on a better show for this trial. And we still know that Chessie was found guilty. Right. It's just hard because as Stidman is asking Bryn Ridge this, D.A. Fogelman pops in and he's all like cocky and like, what are you talking about? And he goes to Detective Ridge, quote, this business about

checking out his story. When you've got a person that's confessing a crime, do you just interrupt them in the middle of their confession and say, well well let me go out and check and see where you were that day see if you're telling us what you were doing that day is correct can you do that end quote and bryn ridge is like absolutely not and these two dickheads over here are acting like that's the only option like you either just allow it to happen and never like fact check it or you stop them in the middle of their confession and leave to go check it. And I loved that the defense brought in an expert witness, a man named Warren Holmes. He'd been a detective with the Miami Police Department for 13 years. And then after that, he was traveling around giving lectures to various law enforcement agencies, including the FBI,

the CIA and the Texas Rangers on the subject of criminal interrogation in his 10 years doing that Holmes had worked on the assassination of JFK the Martin Luther King Jr murder Watergate he's all he's also been involved in the Boston Strangler case and he's interrogated over 1200 people who had been accused of murder and during those 1200 people interrogations he took several false confessions from different suspects. Warren Holmes was asked what an interrogator should look for as far as red flags indicating a false confession, and he responded, quote, well, the first thing you look for is he's got to tell you something that you don't already know. And the second thing you

look for is that whatever he says does not conflict with the evidence of the crime scene analysis. The third thing, he should also be able to lead you to the evidence of the crime scene analysis. The third thing, he should also be able to lead you to the fruits of the crime or the crime weapon utilized. Now, in the initial part of the confession, it's always a narrative form where he suddenly just gets it off his chest and it's an indication of relief that sets in and he tells you about it and you don't have to prompt him or lead him with questions. He just gets it all out at one time. Then when he gets done telling you in the narrative form, that's when you start asking the questions. Also, what you look for is

that when you do start questioning them to clarify certain points in his confession, if you're wrong in your supposition, he will tell you that. He will correct you. You don't have to correct him. And then you always look for little incidental details. And he'll say, well, just at that time, this was going down. We noticed a man walking a dog across this field. And later on, you verify that there was, in fact, a man walking a dog across the field. So anytime they supply an incidental detail of an occurrence that took place simultaneously with the crime, it lends credibility to the confession. They will describe the behavior of themselves and the victims. They will describe their feelings at the time. They will describe the behavior of themselves and the victims. They will describe their feelings at the time. They will describe the conversations between the culprit and the victims. They will describe the conversations between the co-defendants. They will describe their feelings since the crime is committed. And when they're confessing, you get the impression that their words match the emotion that you see. They're reliving the experience of the crime. Now, if you don't see that match and their manner is stilted, it could be contrived and you could be getting false information. But what you're always looking for when you take a

confession is something that you can hang your hat on, something that corroborates a confession. One independent witness, one piece of physical evidence, a statement made by a co-defendant that confirms it. But you're always looking for something beyond his word, just something to verify the validity of the confession. Most of what you see is that the suspect, once he confesses, he sounds and looks like he's telling the truth. And of course, after you get the confession, the litmus test, the best test to take him out of the scene and let him walk you through the crime and see what happens, that's when you can assess whether or not he's telling you something based on memory or he's just fantasizing it as he goes along with it. End quote. I don't know if you remember the last time we talked about this, not saying I'm a genius

or anything, but pretty sure I said to you exactly, not all this, this was a lot better said than I will ever say. But overall, what I said last time was when you first give someone an interview or an interrogation, the first thing you do is let them go through the entire story. You don't say a fucking word. Yeah. You let them talk until they literally can't talk anymore. And even when they stop talking,

you pause and you create that awkward silence. So it feels to them like you're not satisfied with what they finished. And you try to get more out of them. You don't, you don't insert anything. You just anything else. That that's it and you can say with just i'll even saying a word just by looking at them when they have gotten everything out of their system obviously you should be writing it down recording it all of that that's what i was

gonna say you're taking notes you're taking notes you're not saying a word and you are then going to go through and get clarification on those things. You're not filling in the blanks. And obviously the second part there, which he hit on, I don't think that's anything that you or anybody else who hasn't done a single interrogation wouldn't know. You're looking for that. It doesn't necessarily have to be the smoking gun, but that trivial information, right? Like what was on TV? What was the color of the car in the grass? What was the person doing when you saw them before you entered the woods that was cutting their grass? What was the lawnmower? Things that cannot be contrived. Things are going to be fact or fiction,

and you can go and confirm it after the fact with very little effort. Those things give validity to their overall story, because if they're giving you those minute details That they wouldn't know unless they were there That adds to the credibility of when they start telling you about the things that matter That's why I struggle with this interview so much because whether it's the first interview or the second one Regardless they never let the guy talk. So it was funny what you said there when the prosecution was like, oh you wouldn't You wouldn't cut them off and like stop them. Well, it's funny because you said there when the prosecution was like oh you wouldn't you wouldn't cut them off and like stop them well it's funny because you cut him off the entire time from the

recording that we have you cut him off every sentence to guide him in the direction you wanted him to go now you may have been innocent you just may be a shitty interviewer but either way it completely discredits the interview itself because you never let the kid just speak now we can argue later about his mental capacity all those things which are totally valid and also the conditions he was under in which he gave the statement but just at the most basic level of criminal investigation this is coming from a guy in this interview who will forget more about interrogations that i'll ever know right He's look at his background, but even me not being at this guy's level knows the basics of giving a good interview or interrogation.

Right. And by no means am I like that guy. So the fact that I know that these guys should know that as well. And that's why I really struggled with last episode. I mean, it's, it's basic human communication also, I think. And I like. Even if you're trying to get your kids, right. Have you never, never done this with your kids?

No. Where you're like, hey, what happened? My kids can't hide shit from me, man. But what I'm saying, when you ask them- My kids think I got hidden cameras all over this house. No, but you know what I mean, right? Like you want to give them an opportunity to step on their own dick. I don't know if anyone knows that phrase, but you want to give them an opportunity to

tell a lie because you're not helping them and guiding them. And then you can go back and start to figure out if they're telling the truth based on what they're saying that you can go back and confirm after the fact. And also something else he said in there. There's so much that that was a great statement, but also like you can tell just by the human behavior when someone's pulling something from memory or making it up on the fly. Yeah. Some of that's intuition and doing a lot of interviews, but some of it is just basic where behavior when someone's pulling something from memory or making it up on the fly. Yeah.

Some of that's intuition and doing a lot of interviews, but some of it is just basic where I said it with Jesse's statement, some things that he was speaking, he was direct, he was confident, but the things he was talking about at those moments didn't really matter. Then it was like the specifics where he knew it could trip him up, whether that's because he's guilty or because he was lying about being there. Or because their face is like. Yeah. Like they're not happy. I'm like, that's because he's guilty or because he was lying about being there because their face is like Yeah, like they're not I'm like that's not right, you know his voice if you just listen to the audio, which is great You know, it is only audio You can hear the trailing in his voice the uncertainty of what he's saying where he's almost looking for affirmation

Before he finishes the sentence. So yeah Everything he said and then some. It's perfect. I liked when he said, if you let him talk and then you try to clarify, he'll tell you if you're wrong. You aren't going to tell him that he's wrong. That was perfect for me. Because that's exactly what they did.

They were like, no, Jesse, the murder didn't happen at that time. Are you even wearing a watch, you idiot? Do you even know what time is? What is a penis? You know? Yeah, no, no. It was, you're already writing, you're writing for trial at that point, right? Like you're trying to paint the narrative. You said his name's Warren Holmes, right? Yeah. I believe I read a book, but I think he wrote a book that I read back in one of the schools that I went to. I have to look it up now but i have well i don't have any of the books here yeah you don't have anything anymore but they were all my interview interrogation books are up there i gotta put them in the comments one time or like i'll do

it on i gotta put it somewhere because i know a lot of you out there would love some of the books that they that there's some really you should do like a little video or maybe we'll do like a crime weekly news yeah like our favorite like crime books or something dude there's some good ones and they're just like specifically about that and human behavior and all that stuff but i usually have them in the background if you can like screen grab them but yeah you can't do that right now but we'll get on that but that was very well said a lot of what we said two episodes ago i was no i was joking a little bit but it's super important it's super important and it's in a lot of detectives that are watching or listening to this. I promise you, if they're worth their weight, they were saying the same thing that I was saying.

Yeah. And Holmes even said, like, listen, you guys, as interrogators, you have to be careful with the length of time that you're questioning somebody. Right. Because fatigue. Yeah. Because the person may become, he said, I call it a captive audience syndrome. And basically that means that Jesse's going to start basing more importance on his perceived relationship with his interrogators, like trying to please them, trying to give them what he wants, what they want, because he doesn't like to feel that they're disappointed. And basically he's going to start feeling like, okay, I'm in this with you and how can I help you and how can I make this easier for you? So he said, you know, anything after the first four hours, like you need to take a long break and start again, maybe another day, but anything after that first four hours is just going to be

like, who knows what's coming out at that point. Now you could get a genuine confession, but you could also get a false confession and the, the chances of getting a false confession increase exponentially after that four hours. Yep. Totally makes sense. I feel like I've heard, like, obviously I've heard this in other schools, but I feel like I've heard this wording directly and it was probably his book. Maybe he co-authored it or something.

I'll have to look it up. Yeah. And he said anything from four hours on is diminishing resistance. So basically I tried to put that in like different terms but diminishing resistance defeated now they just want to get out of there they're going to tell you whatever they have to do in order to make that happen now holmes said that he listened to the audio of jesse's confession and he he basically told the west and he was polite about it but he was basically like yeah you guys did everything wrong i I mean, Holmes,

my guy. Yeah. I'm with you, brother. He wasn't being like a dick about it, but he was like that. Cause they were like, what was the worst part?

And he's like, where do I start? You know? So he said he particularly didn't like that. When Jesse said something that didn't fit the narratives, the detectives tried to lead him by saying, well, could it have been this way? And then the DA,

John Fogelman, he like interrupted and he was like, I object. Okay. You need to specifically identify a place where the detective said, could it have been this way? And then Jesse's lawyer, Stidman, he was like, your honor, I think that that happens throughout the entire interview. It really does. The path, the path, the cutting. I mean, the briefcase, I mean, the leading the entire time. Could it have been later in the day? Yeah. Like, you don't wear a watch, right? So you didn't actually know what time it was.

Yeah. Ultimately, Warren Holmes said that he didn't believe Jesse had been at the scene of the crime at all. He said if he had been, this would have been impactful. He wouldn't have forgotten that it was, you know, the time, basically. He wouldn't have, like, misinterpreted and thought that it happened at noon in broad daylight or instead of it happening like at night when the sun was going down. Yeah, it's a pretty big difference. It's daylight or it's dark out. He said if he was there, he would have known that these boys have been tied with shoelaces and not brown rope like he claimed.

Like not even the shoelaces. None of the shoelaces were even brown. So it just seemed like a made up fact. But those are the things we're talking about where I was saying like a lawnmower, but these little details, it's not a smoking gun, but it is something where, as he just said, those are things you would remember. And maybe that's a piece of information that was in public. Oh, the boys were tied up. Yeah. Everyone in the community might know that, but do they know if the police did their job, they were tied up with okay nobody does well if we get someone in here and they're like yeah we tied them up with shoelaces okay yo the worst part is though like even if jesse had said

shoelaces it still wouldn't have mattered because there were people that knew about the shoelaces too yeah yes because freaking john mark byers was running his mouth all over town like a dumb ass everybody knew everything and i blame john mark byers for that because he was like he had an in he was friends with gary gitchell so he did i think have some more information that like the majority of people didn't but then like the majority of people did because he could not shut up yeah yeah that's major, major issues with it for sure. So the defense also called Dr. Richard Ophshe an expert on false confessions, and he testified to pretty much the same thing. And the prosecution asked him how he would be able to

explain that Jesse had known there were cuts to one of the victim's faces. And, you know, could Dr. Ophshe point to an area of the interview where Jesse had been led to this information? Like I said, Fogelman's getting sassy. He's like super defensive. He should have been the defense attorney. Well, they do that a lot though. That's pretty common. These guys get passionate about,

they do care about these cases. No, but I think that they didn't like, they didn't like these like big city experts coming in and being like, you guys suck at what you do. You know, so Fogelman was like super defensive. He's like, oh, how did he know this? Well, first of all, asshole, your detectives showed Jesse Miskelly in autopsy photo where Christopher Byers was cut to his face. So maybe that.

But Dr. Oveche said that he was like, but also like, as we previously discussed, I can't even point to an area where you could have led him to that because several hours of Jesse's interview happened to be completely off the record, is enough for reasonable doubt. But apparently not for the jury, okay? Because despite the compelling testimony of these two expert witnesses, the jury still found Jesse Mizkelly guilty on all charges. And he was sentenced to life in prison without parole. Like, that's crazy to me. Like, if you heard these experts and then heard that the prosecution had nothing, you know that this is some small town, like, we're afraid of witchcraft and Satanism stuff and, like, just put this kid away. We don't really care what these experts say. Yeah. I'm surprised that they didn't try and move the trial to a different venue for a fair trial because of when you were telling me there's 200 people outside the courthouse when this is happening or wherever it was, you know,

saying shoot them. You have to assume that those people may know the potential jury members and are they going to get a fair trial in that community? Probably not. I mean, who knows? They may have. These were public defenders. And like, look at Jesse's lawyer, man. Dude, it took him months to even figure out whether Jesse was like actually confessing

or not. Good point. Good point. So he probably had his hands full. After Jesse got his sentence, Fogelman and the DA's office began planning for the trial of Damian Echols and Jason Baldwin. But before they could do that, they went to the families of the victims. They went to the families of Michael Moore, Stevie Branch and Christopher Byers. And they told them, look, we don't have shit, man. We do not have a very strong case against these two boys. And we

need the testimony of Jesse, Ms. Kelly Jr. You know, like we got some fibers that like don't mean anything. We've got some random people claiming they saw Damien and Domini walking around near Robin Hood Hills at the time of the murder, but not Jason. We also have some people who say like,

you know, Damien and Jason were nowhere near Robin Hood Hills at the time. We got some random kids who claim they heard Damien confess to killing your sons, you know, at some football game, some random teenage girls. We need Jesse's statement right now or we're dead in the water. So we really have to offer him a plea deal.

And like, obviously, I'll do respect to John Fogelman or like at least with, you know, he deserves this respect. I mean, he went to the families and asked them. And I think that was nice because maybe some DAs who really wanted to get a conviction wouldn't have and just offer Jesse the plea deal. But he said, we got it. We got to do this. You know, is that OK with you to offer one of your son's murderers like a reduced sentence in exchange for getting the other ones who, you know, according to Jesse, were the ones who actually committed the murders. Yeah, the primary offenders, yeah.

So after his sentencing, Jesse was transferred to Pine Bluff Prison, and he wasn't there long. But on the drive over from West Memphis to Pine Bluff Prison, the deputies who had driven him there, they called the DA's office, like, as soon as they dropped Jesse off. And they were like, good news. When we were in the car, Jesse confessed again. Reportedly, one of them said that they had assured Jesse, like you can talk to us, you know, nothing that you're going to say to us can be used against you in a court of law. So just like if you got anything to get off your chest, like just tell us what happened, man. Like what really happened? These deputies said that Jesse not only claimed

once again to have been present, but reiterated his allegations against his two friends. Now, listen, the details of this new statement were different from his previous statements. You know, that he changed things. The new story that Jesse told was on May 5th, he and Damien and Jason were drinking together. Jesse was drinking some whiskey that Vicki Hutchinson had given him. Damien and Jason were drinking beer. They were all high from smoking weed earlier that day. They all went into the woods and they were sitting in the water. And that's when they saw three boys in the distance. And Damien told Jason and Jesse like, oh, hide, hide, you know. And then when the

boys got closer, Damien snatched Michael more. And then Stevie and Chris began hitting Damien. And then that's when Jesse and Jason like popped out of the water with their sticks and started beating the boys who were hitting Damien. Jesse goes on once again to talk about the sexual assault of these boys at the hands of Damien and Jason. As we know, they were not sexually assaulted. But now he says the boys were not tied at all, not with shoelaces, not with ropes. And although the details were different than any of the other previous statements, it still gave the DA, John Fogelman, hope that Jesse was ready to testify against Damian and Jason because Fogelman was hoping to get the death penalty for Damian and Jason.

And he knew he wouldn't get that without Jesse's statement. Now, the interesting thing, it comes out that Jesse claims he said this to the deputies in the car because they told him like, oh, you're going to prison, dude. You've already been sentenced. But if you tell us what really happened and we can use it against your friends, then we'll let your girlfriend visit you in prison and have conjugal visits. Damn. I was going to say something. I'll be respectful. Using the P word. Yeah. That's wrong, man. That's wrong. It's wrong to do to a 17, I'll be respectful. Using the P word. Yeah, that's wrong, man. That's wrong. It's wrong to do to a 17-year-old boy.

That's not right. It's not right. It's not right to any guy. No, I mean, especially not a 17-year-old boy who's literally just surviving on testosterone and whatever the hell else. Yeah, that's not right. So at this point, the DA's called Jesse's attorneys and they're like, oh, by the way, your client's now ready to like talk and he's ready to discuss a post conviction deal. And so Jesse's attorneys, along with Fogelman and Gary Gitchell, they went to Pine Bluff Prison to meet with Jesse.

But at first, Jesse's attorney, Stidham, he was like, I want to talk to Jesse alone because I feel like you guys are doing some shady shit here, man. Like, I feel like you're pressuring him. He's already denied this. He's gone back and forth. He finally settled on it and told me what's up. And now you're telling me like he's confessing again. This is suspicious. So apparently Stidham went in to talk to Jesse and then he came out and he was like, I'm so confused. He's confessing to this again. At the time, Stidham didn't know that Jesse had been promised conjugal visits with his girlfriend, but he's confessing to this again. At the time, Stidham didn't know that Jesse had been promised, you know, conjugal visits with his girlfriend, but he's confessing to this again. But it's not enough for me. I need some proof. I need some like irrefutable proof been drinking that bottle of whiskey and then he threw it like over a bridge while he's going over the overpass. And he was just finished with it. So he threw it. where Jesse claims he like threw the bottle out and they found the broken neck of a bottle of a

whiskey bottle that was the same brand that Jesse claimed he was drinking, which was Evan Williams. And Fogelman was like, OK, so Dan Stidham, Jesse's attorney, is this enough proof now? And Stidham was like, no, it's not like it's it's the most popular brand of whiskey that people are drinking here. And there's like dozens and dozens of broken bottles under this underpass because people like drive over the bridge and throw their liquor bottles out. Like and it's been a year on top of that. Like this bottle could have been here at any time. So, no, it's not enough. I'll also say real quickly, sometimes with liars, you'll have some truth in what they say.

It could have been the bottle that Jesse Miss Kelly threw over the bridge on a completely different day. And that's how he knew it would be there. So that's how he can make his story more believable. So that in and of itself isn't, again, anything to write home about, especially when you have all these other things. But it would be a start. I'm not going to diminish it that coupled with some other things like that. You start to create a chain of different things like a bottle, like a TV show or that was on that specific day.

Yeah. Circumstantial things like that. Now you start to paint a picture, but I, not to diminish it, but the one, the whiskey bottle in and of itself is not enough because yeah, it could be Jesse's bottle. It may have his DNA on it. How do we know it's from the day that we care about, right? The day in question. Yeah, because it's been a year by this time. That's right. So ultimately, at the end of the day, Jesse, Ms. Kelly Jr. decided to not engage in plea talks with the DA's office, and he declined to testify against Jason and Damien, even though he had been sentenced to life in prison. And I think that means something. The state did make, I'm not going to lie, like the state kept trying, man,

they made other attempts to not only convince Jesse to testify, but to convince the public and Damien and Jason that Jesse was going to testify to like stress the other defendants out. So for instance, they moved Jesse from his prison to another location in Jonesboro, and then they leaked to the media that the reason Jesse had been moved was so he could be available for the trial of Jason and Damien, which was going to start in early February. The DA's office also, once they moved him, they spoke to Jesse without his lawyer's present and then once again called his lawyer up and was like, oh, he's ready to testify and make another statement against his friends. And then when Stidham finally got to Jesse, he found out once again that these certain promises had been made to Jesse, these conjugal visits, reward money, things like that, like things in exchange for his testimony, which kind of invalidates the testimony. I mean, I guess it doesn't, though, because people make plea agreements all the time. But to me, when a person gets up on the stand

and says, I am giving my testimony in exchange for something that I want, I find that testimony to be less valuable and less true, honestly. I think it could be. I think sometimes where it's clear that they're all involved, you may have someone who had a lesser involvement with it that takes a plea deal. i think it's definitely dirty if that's it's tough to if this person's admitting that they were there when a murder was committed now they're going to be giving a statement it's still kind of it's tough to happen in the aaron hernandez case if you remember i can't remember the drug dealer's name the guy with the eye the eye right and it's like he's hard to believe because he's like you know he's a criminal too

and it's like yeah okay buddy now you're coming forward and you're so forthright and all you're, we're supposed to believe every word you say when you're telling us other stories about what you've done in the past. And we see, we can see your, your previous record. It, it's tough. It's tough to take that person seriously. So I think that dude lied about what he was up to, but didn't lie about what Aaron Hernandez was up to.

You know what I mean? I think you're probably right. Like he was honest about Aaron Hernandez, but like he minimized his part. So sometimes it didn't seem like it added up because he was like, I don't even know why that guy got so mad. I didn't do anything. I remember saying to you, like, he's like, I activated my traffic blinker. And I was like, come on, stop it. I made sure to pull slowly out into the stream of incoming traffic at my hands 10 and 12.

but yeah i know whenever someone takes a deal you should have a little bit more skepticism and what they're saying because they're obviously there's been there's an incentive for them to honor their part of the deal right which is not to get up there and tell the truth necessarily but to tell the jury or whoever what the prosecution wants them to, because that deal can be revoked. If you don't, you can get a deal, then get on the stand and say, you know, nothing. Well, that deal is null and void. So if they're not happy with what you provided, you could find yourself back to where you started. So there's an incentive to lie as well. There's an incentive to lie. If you're not telling the truth,

you know what I'm saying? It's not necessary. I just don't want to paint the picture that every single person who takes a deal is lying. There's an incentive to say it and not back out. There's also an incentive to lie, especially if you're benefiting off of it and you already know you're screwed, right? I'll buy that. I'm with you there.

We can virtual handshake on that one. There's an incentive to lie if you don't have what exactly what they want but there's also an incentive to tell the full truth even if it makes you look bad because if you don't that could hurt your deal as well yeah and like virtual prison snitches like prison snitches every time these these guys come out of the woodwork and they're like yeah i was cellmates with so-and-so for a month and he confessed to everything and i'm actually giving my testimony in exchange for, like, you know, five years taken off of my sentence. And it's like, but you don't even have any, like, connection to this person. You have no problem throwing them under the bus to get something.

It doesn't bother you one way or the other. Like, there's no honor among thieves, no matter what they say. So there's no personal connection there. These prison snitches, I'm always like super skeptical. But basically, yeah, Jesse goes back and forth for like ever, basically being pulled. He wants to not testify. He keeps saying he made it all up. But then they're like, are you sure you made it up? Or do you want to have sex with your girlfriend?

Basically. Right. And so now he's like, well, I'm already going to prison for life. I would still like to have sex with my girlfriend because that was one of the main reasons I was concerned about going to prison. So, I mean, at this point, they're probably going to get Damien and Jason anyways. And, you know, they're probably telling him behind the scenes like, you know, we've got them on lock anyways. You might as well benefit from this somehow. Like, we care about you. You know, you helped us and we really want to we feel bad. You're going to prison for life, man. We want to make it easier for you. Like, come on, they're they're screwed anyways. Just get something out of it for yourself. And he's too stupid to know that they're like using him and manipulating him at this point.

So he went back and forth. But ultimately, he does not show up on the witness list and he does not testify against Jason and Damien, which once again, considering he'd already been sentenced to life in prison and considering that he wasn't going to get out or have any other kind of outcome, and he could have had a better shake if he had testified against them. I think that does say a lot personally. Yeah. No, I agree with you. I mean, I don't think that Jesse was there. That's where we're getting to now. We're almost done with this series. I don't think Jesse was there. I think, and if he was, there's too much missing from the interview for me to create or to come to a conclusion that I'm comfortable with. I have to err on the side of the caution with this. And there's way too many things that were done off record to come up with an accurate assessment.

And even Holmes, he's going off what he had. And even other uh for she would you say his name was yes they're saying there's so much that wasn't there that they can only dissect what they have so i'm in agreeance with you i i feel like it does say something because he could have just said hey you know i have nothing to lose here let me just go up there and do what i got to do but maybe he had some sense of doing the right thing quote unquote in his mind where he said you know what i'm not going to go up there and do what I got to do. But maybe he had some sense of doing the right thing, quote unquote, in his mind where he said, you know what, I'm not going to get up there and lie and put two other people in the same position I'm in. But I do want to say there is a potential here that they could have had the right people and just did everything the wrong way. We'll never, I can tell you right now, we'll never know at this point. I am fascinated to see where this

case goes, especially with the advancements in science and technology today, where if they do go forward and start to analyze everything they have and it was preserved correctly, I really want to know. Not only are they guilty, but also, if not them, who? That's the big thing here. We still owe those answers to those families. Well, I do think that they did like some current testing, like, well, maybe not like current, but after the fact on the fibers. And they basically determined them to be not similar at all. Like initially they were saying these fibers were like microscopically similar.

And then the new testing they did, I think, in 2012 or something, they were like, actually, these fibers weren't even close to being similar. So that's a problem. But more so, yeah, it could end up completely exonerating the West Memphis three, but also maybe putting us in a new direction. How do you know that there's someone not in that area, a previous criminal, someone who was arrested later who pops on one of these kids clothes or something that had no connection to them? Now we got a new, better late than never. Obviously should have happened then.

But I would love to see that happen as well if this turns out not to be them. So fascinating case. I don't really have anything to add. I know we had a three-hour episode last week, so this is about an hour and 40 right now without any editing or any of the ads. So I feel like this was a good, concise episode. We got right to the point and we have episode seven next week, right? Yep. And we'll talk about the trial of Damian and Jason, the outcome of that. And then we will go into, so I feel like we can wrap everything up in two more episodes. We can do the trial and then kind of what happened to them after they were convicted. And then the last episode, we can go over the other suspects, including Terry Hobbs, John Mark Byers, things like that. And kind of just, and even the Mr. Bojangles, right? Like we completely

forgot about Mr. Bojangles and, you know, conveniently enough, so did the West Memphis police department. No, I think we have to, because if it's not them and a lot of people think it wasn't, then we got to start looking at alternate theories and other people who could have been involved. So I'm all for it guys. We appreciate you coming back every single week. Again, some of you may not love the long series. Some of you love it. So we're going to do what the case dictates. This one definitely dictated a little bit more research, a little bit more effort, a little bit more conversation. And I feel like with the interview portions of it, especially we're, we're, we're long with them because this is something where I can really weigh in on it. And this is something where I want to try to give you guys a better idea of what's going on, what's right,

what's wrong. So when we're doing future cases, you're already saying it before I do. So we appreciate you sticking around. Saw a lot of wine glasses, a lot of pineapples in the comments. That honestly sounds so corny, but it always makes me feel good because most of you are doing it to let us know that you've watched to the end. And when we do an episode that's three hours and you're taking the us know that you've watched to the end. And when we do an episode, that's three hours. And you're taking the time to stick around and watch to the end. It means a lot. It really does.

Because we put a lot of effort into these episodes. So any final words from you, Steph? No, I think we're good to go. Appreciate it. Guys, if you haven't already, please like the video. Please subscribe. Turn notifications on. We appreciate you guys.

Be safe out there. We will see you next week. See you next week. Bye.