Crime Weekly - S3 Ep124: Carla Jan Walker: The DNA of Murder (Part 2)

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

In February of 1974, Carla Jan Walker was a 17 year-old high school junior living in Fort Worth, Texas. Carla was the epitome of the All-American girl, a cheerleader dating the quarterback of the football team who should have been the envy of every one of her peers, with her good grades and wholesome good looks, but Carla was also the kind of girl who smiled at everyone, who had a kind word for anyone she saw, and it was impossible to dislike her. The evening of February 16th, 1975 should have been a magical one for Carla, who had slipped into a floor length powder blue ball gown with delicate white lace trim to attend a Valentines Day dance at her high school, there would be a live band playing, the theme of the dance was "Love Is A Kaleidoscope", and the school gym would be decorated with paper hearts and pink streamers. Even better, she was going to be attending with her steady boyfriend, 18 year-old Rodney McCoy, and she had Rodney’s promise ring safely on her finger. But what started as a wonderful and romantic night, the kind Carla was sure she would one day recollect for the children that she and Rodney were sure to have, turned into a nightmare for Carla, for Rodney, for her family, and for every single person in her community. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. HelloFresh Go to HelloFresh.com/crimeweekly16 and use code crimeweekly16 for 16 free meals plus free shipping! 2. Babbel Right now, get up to 55% off your subscription when you go to BABBEL.com/CRIMEWEEKLY. 

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So tonight we are diving into part two of the Carla Walker case. But before we do, we have some announcements. I think Derek had a couple points he wanted to touch on. I don't even know if it's announcements, but the first thing is definitely, the first is definitely an announcement. K-Cups completely sold out. Thank you guys so much for the support.

If you already watched on Crime Weekly News, you already know about it. But for anybody listening on audio who hasn't seen Crime Weekly News, we sold out completely. I'm ordering more. You guys who emailed me saying, hey, can we get on a waiting list? I don't think there's going to be a need for it. I'm ordering double what I ordered the last time. So there'll be about 3000 boxes available when they come in. Could take anywhere from 30 to 45 days. There's a process where we have to roast and grind the coffee. Then we have to ship it off to Philadelphia. Then it gets packaged and then I get it at the distribution center and then we can send it out. As soon as it comes in, I'll mention it on here and we'll do like a post on social or whatever.

But overall, thank you so much for the support. I was saying on Crime Weekly News, we've been in business for a little over a year now and we're just coming up on $10,000 raised for the criminal coffee fund. So we wouldn't be able to do that without this and we wouldn't be able to do it without your support. So thank you so much for that. We'll keep you in touch. The only other thing I had, which I didn't expect to be a thing, but I have to go with the people, right? I'm always preaching that we have to listen to our subscribers, our listeners to what they want, make adjustments. Well, here's an adjustment I didn't see coming. The hair, the hair is a thing. Stephanie, you were right by popular demand. It's back. And I'm going see coming. The hair, the hair is a thing. Stephanie, you were right.

By popular demand, it's back. And I'm going to tell you right now, this is an easy win for me. I was saying to Stephanie before we started recording, literally just rolled out of bed, basically kept had a hat on, took it off, started recording with you guys. And I'm ready to go. If I, if this is the look and you guys want it, congratulations, you got it. I even went more scrubbing this week. I got my gym t-shirt on. Listen, I'm just going all out. Just straight up looking like I came off the street and I'm here. This is what you want. Maybe I've been doing it wrong all these years, Stephanie. Maybe this is what I should have been doing. I mean, I agree. I think it's a much softer look. It's the softer side of Derek. I mean, listen, I can't really do this in a court. I mean, I guess you could, I guess this is a more professional look

This isn't professional. This is like if you were like going undercover at like a high school, you know to see who was like selling college Jesus But anyways, it's back to junior college This is this is easier for me So if you guys listen, I was taken aback by how many people had something to say about my hair. 99% of it was positive. Some people were thinking something's wrong with me. No, it's great. This is perfect for me. This is easy. I can do this every week. So until further notice, no gel in the hair, Derek will be here for your enjoyment on YouTube. And if you're on audio, you really don't give a

shit. So just keep listening and we're good to go. Well, Derek isn't actually here for your enjoyment. I'm sure he didn't mean it like that. I'm here. I'm here for your enjoyment. You're welcome, America. I'm joking. I'm joking. Okay. Before I get canceled, talk to him about what's going on in your background real quick. Again, this is for YouTube, but what do you got going on over there? This is a big announcement. It's not. I don't know what's going on on i don't know what's going on uh we had some comments that i was like that my lighting was off that i looked washed out etc etc so i did some back lighting kind of like derek has and i turned off my overhead lights in the booth and kept only the lights in front of me so that it would be I guess more I don't know contrasted but personally I don't know how I feel about it because I look

way like tanner than I think I am in real life but maybe not and also there's like a weird shadow because of my glasses because there's no overhead light to like diffuse that shadow so for me I'm gonna like hopefully get used to it. If you guys like it and you think it looks better, let me know. And then either way, I'll just keep it if you like it better, but it's going to take me a minute to get used to it. I feel the same way about the hair. I feel like I look like trash right now, but we'll get used to it together. We'll get used to it together. So thank you guys. Thank you for the feedback. You guys are getting what you wanted, right? Here for your enjoyment. Yep. All right. So we are diving in to the case. And as I mentioned at the end of the last episode, there was some concern in the mid to late 70s among law enforcement and the citizens of Fort Worth that they may have had a serial killer or more than one serial killer in

their midst as scores of young women vanished and turned up dead all over the city for years and there was also concern that 17 year old Carla Jan Walker had fallen victim to one of these killers after she'd been ripped from the passenger seat of her boyfriend's car by a man who wore a cowboy hat but over the course of the next few years, police would talk to three people who they suspected may have been responsible for Carla's abduction and murder. And the first was a 25-year-old carpet installer from Euless, Texas, who was arrested in his home on May 7, 1974 and charged with the aggravated kidnapping of a 16-year-old Arlington girl from the previous April. His name was Tommy Ray Neeland, and authorities were looking to connect Neeland

to other crimes besides the rape in Arlington, including the murder of Becky Martin, a murder that occurred the year before Carla went missing, and a murder that Detective Joe Minter, who was one of the original detectives on Carla's case, believed had many of the same hallmarks as Carla's murder. Becky was tiny, like Carla. She was blonde and pretty. And after she'd been abducted, she was found strangled and her remains were in a culvert in the area of Lake Benbrook. After being arrested, Tommy Neeland confessed to several crimes, including the murder of three people, 27-year-old Nancy Mitchell of Kermit, Texas, who had been murdered in September of 1970 and whose remains had been found in the spring of

1971. He was also charged with the murders of two Oklahoma City teenagers who had been visiting the Fort Worth area in 1972. After Tommy Neeland was charged with these crimes, the Fort Worth Police Department would only say that Neeland was a good suspect and that they were continuing to question him about Carla's case, especially after Carla's boyfriend, Rodney McCoy, picked Neeland out of a lineup. And this is something that is very interesting because Tommy Ray Neeland never confessed to murdering Carla, but he also didn't not confess. You know, he was kind of very coy about the whole thing. And this one particular detective kind of kept going back to Neeland as a potential suspect for her case.

But Neeland never confessed to it. However, he did stand in a lineup and Carla's boyfriend said, that's the guy right there, which probably only bolstered the police department's belief that Tommy Ray Neeland was involved. Plus, obviously, his previous crimes, which were very similar. I mean, if you're capable of murdering once, you're capable of murdering twice. And this guy confessed to at least three murders and they think he was responsible for many more. Yeah, I think it makes sense. And we talked about it where we don't know at this point if the offender in this case has committed, if this was their first time or this was their fifth, right?

Or did they carry out acts like this afterwards because they weren't caught? The one thing I want to go back to is Rodney McCoy, because if we're going back to last week's episode, he never got a look of the offender's face because the offender was outside the vehicle with their head above the roofline of the vehicle the entire time. So I could see- Purposely, yeah. And so I could see a situation where we've had, I wouldn't call them lineups, but you have multiple suspects record them saying statements that the witness had heard them say something, whether it was robbing a bank

with a mask on or something like this, where you're coming with me, sweetie, aren't you? You have the suspects repeat that line. It's kind of a blind test where you let the witness tell you if they recognize the voice. Maybe you don't know the answer. I don't know how he would pick anybody out of a lineup when he's never seen the offender's face. How does that work? So it could have been a voice lineup like that, but also he did say, you know,

as this man was pulling Carla away from the car, he saw him for like a split second. Like a profile maybe? Yeah, they could have been doing like maybe the body type or something like that. Maybe. It's weak. It's weak to say the least. But I will say at this point, I wasn't expecting to start the episode off like this. This guy could definitely be good for this. And I don't know how many other people didn't go and look this case up, but we obviously have one suspect from last week, Glenn McCurley. And then we obviously have now

this suspect as well. If you made me just based on this, based on the photo lineup or whatever type of lineup it was, plus his previous actions that he's been involved with, I would say this is more than likely the guy over Glenn, but you covered him so much last week. I feel like Glenn's going to come into this equation somehow. Glenn may pop back up. Okay. But the next person that police were sure had to be connected to Carla Walker's murder was a young Fort Worth man named William Ted Wilhoite, who'd been arrested at the age of 20 in 1973 for the attempted rape of a Fort Worth housewife.

Wilhoite ended up being acquitted of the charge, but he would be arrested by Detective John Terrell in 1975 after Terrell pulled up to Will Hoyt's house to question him about a string of burglaries. So Terrell claimed that when he arrived to the house, Will Hoyt was already standing outside in the front yard and the detective, John Terrell, he called him over to the car, you know, like, come over here, Will Hoyt, and talk to me. And Will Hoyt walked up and said, I wondered when you were coming after me for Carla Walker. So that's like some sort of admission of guilt, right? It's not saying I killed Carla Walker, but it's saying like, oh, I kind of expected you to come and talk to me about her. Now, it looks like Terrell kind of took this as an admission of guilt, where it could just be him saying, you know, I'm a bad seed.

You're always like on my case because this guy was always kind of getting involved with burglaries and things like that. And I expected that you would think I was a person of interest and you would come and talk to me. But either way, it kind of it kind of solidified Detective Terrell's belief that Will Hoyt was involved with Carla Walker. And inside the house, Detective Terrell found several items that had been reported stolen, and so Will Hoyt was sent to jail for robbery. This was his second conviction for robbery, both which John Terrell had arrested him for, and it actually landed Will Hoyt in Huntsville Prison with a five-year sentence. Now, on February 25th, 1976, Detective Terrell, who was very sure that Will Hoyt was not only a habitual burglar, but also a serial rapist, he showed an employee at the

bowling alley where Carla had been abducted a series of pictures. Will Hoyt's picture was included. And this person picked out Will Hoyt's picture as somebody who they believed had been at the bowling alley on the night of Carla's abduction. So Detective Terrell went to Huntsville Prison to question Will Hoyt about Carla's case. John Terrell said, quote, I talked to him about Carla, how she was from a good family. I fed on his conscience. I told him he wouldn't be able to live with himself, so he might as well tell me if he killed her, end quote. And according to Detective Terrell, at this point, Wilhoyt broke down. He began sobbing. And then he said to Detective Terrell, well, I guess I might as well. But at that moment, Detective Terrell said someone knocked on the door. It pulled Terrell away.

And he strongly felt that if he hadn't been called out of the room, Will Hoyt was about to confess to Carla's murder. So the police returned to Will Hoyt's home for more evidence where they found a brochure about Ruger pistols. So obviously, we know the connection to the Ruger pistol. This was allegedly the weapon that was used to, you know, beat Carla's boyfriend, Rodney, over the head. And in the process of that, the clip fell out or the magazine, which is a clip or magazine. Some people say clip at the proper terminology. I think clips are more like movie term. But yeah, it's the magazine. So the magazine falls out. Right. And they found that in the parking lot where Rodney and Carla had been parked when she'd been abducted. And that was like one of their only leads, really their only solid lead.

So they tracked down all the people in Fort Worth who owned a weapon like that. And they kind of found out that Will Hoyt had this brochure and he had pawned Ruger's before, like at pawn shops and things. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty compelling, right? When you're looking at this person and you have times where, and I know exactly what the detective's talking about, where it doesn't, even if you don't get pulled away, there's moments during an interrogation where you feel, or you can see the interviewee contemplating

something in their head where initially they're answering very quickly, very concisely. And as you're continuing to push it, they look at you and they're trying to decide internally whether or not to say what they're really thinking. And I don't know how to explain it other than just being there, but I don't think you have to be in an investigatory role. I'm sure you've had it with your kids and others can have it with significant others or family members where you know something's off and you're trying to pull it out of them. And there's a moment where you realize, even without them saying it, that you're right. Your suspicion is right, that there's something more going on than what they're telling you. And that's what causes you to push further.

So I think most people who are listening to this or watching probably have experienced something like what Detective Terrell is describing here. Yeah, exactly. And I will say with Wilhoyt at first, and I think Detective Terrell actually has great instincts because Wilhoyt was mostly known for like burglaries and things like that. But what we're going to find out in a second is he was definitely up to some other things. And Detective Terrell sort of sensed this about him. Like he kind of knew that there was more to William Wilhite than met the eye, and especially more to him than even his own crimes were showing because he was sort of suspected of having been involved in different sexual assaults, but they can never like pin anything on him. And what's interesting is after they found all this stuff in his house, where they felt that they could actually pin something on him for Carla, they gave him a polygraph test.

And Will Hoyt failed this polygraph test, specifically the questions where they were like, do you know Carla Walker? Were you present at her murder? Things like that. He failed these questions. and afterwards he told detective Terrell well I probably failed because this case Carla Walker's case is so similar to another case that I do have knowledge of but you can't prosecute me for that case so that's probably why I messed up because I'm saying I don't know about this case but also in my head I'm thinking of this other case that I do know about so it's coming off that I'm lying and Wilhoy didn't specify which case he was referring to.

But Detective John Terrell was sure that Wilhoyt was referring to the 1974 rape and attempted murder of Texas Christian University student Janelle Kirby. And at that time, there was another man named Kenneth Miller who was serving a life sentence in prison for that crime. And what happened is it's actually crazy because Janelle Kirby was in her apartment. A strange man crept in in the middle of the night, sexually assaulted her. And then when she fought back, he shot her five times in the head. Miraculously, she survived that. And she was able to sort of give some description of who it had been, give some details about what had happened in her assault, which is a very unique position to be in, because most of the time when somebody's being shot five for Janelle Kirby, he confessed to having been the one to attack her. And basically they granted him immunity, I guess, so that they could just get this other guy out of prison who wasn't supposed to be there. But it's crazy to me because he admitted to raping a woman and shooting her five times in the head. And he was given immunity for that.

Like, make it make sense. I got nothing. But I will go back real quick, not to kind of, you know, you're going through this new case and we're talking about this. As far as the polygraph, it makes a lot of sense when you really think about it

because a polygraph isn't detecting, it's detecting signs of deception, right? The things associated with lying. So your elevated heart rate, sweat glands, you have more sweat on your skin. So it makes perfect sense where he is stressed out. He does have an elevated level of anxiety as opposed to what he's feeling when he's asked control questions.

So even though you're asking him a specific question and he's having a reaction to that question, it's more because of what he's describing where this anxiety comes over him, his heart rate's elevated because he's thinking about another case that could be connected to it, even though he has no specific involvement with the case you're inquiring about. So that actually makes a lot of sense, whether you believe in polygraphs or not, that is something that if you're on the side of polygraphs having some type of use, that could explain why you would associate as an investigator, someone failing a polygraph test, failing it for your specific case, when in reality, they had nothing to do with it.

Yeah. And now that I'm thinking about the whole Janelle Kirby case and thinking more about like, why did this dude get immunity and why did he seem to know he was going to get immunity before he even confessed, you know, or he said, I can't be prosecuted for it. Now that I think about it and I looked at the times, he confessed to it in like 1987. And I guarantee you it was a statute of limitations issue because it wasn't a murder. Right. Which is crazy to me. Like, if you meant to murder somebody, but you just failed, you shouldn't get like rewarded. I would still think an attempted murder would wouldn't have a statute of limitations, but I wouldn't know unless I looked it up.

You know, I would think that that would be no statute limitations on attempted murder. So Will Hoyt would be paroled from prison in 1992, even though he confessed to sexually assaulting Janelle Kirby and shooting her in the head five times. And at that time, he left Fort Worth and he moved to Corpus Christi, on March 25th 1995 police caught him crawling out of the window of the apartment of a woman and Will Hoyt told the police oh you caught me I was in here just burglarizing things I'm just robbing her and his parole was revoked at that point but he went back to prison before being paroled again in 2003 as a registered sex offender. So basically when Carla's case would be reopened in the early 2000s, law enforcement still did have Will Hoyt on their list of potential suspects, which I think is pretty clear why. He looks like

a very good suspect for this. It seemed like he kind of really got off on creeping into women's homes and sexually assaulting them. But as far as we know, he hadn't killed anybody. Yeah. And I will say, this is being specific, but with these types, you look at the Golden State Killer, right? They have an MO that they're carrying out. They're looking for a specific victim. They carry out their crime in a specific way. They use a certain manner to do it, whether it's a weapon, whether it's chemicals, whatever it might be. This sounds like a guy, as you mentioned, who's breaking into homes, who could be doing it that way, where that's their comfort zone. They're not walking up to cars, snatching someone while the boyfriend's sitting in. That's a different type of guy and so although it's in the same vein where

he's clearly a creep and he's got some issues that's not his mo for and it doesn't match up now it could be just an outlier right that's not to say that just because they normally do it one way they couldn't do it another way but i would say if this was the guy if will hoyt was the guy then carla's case would be considered an escalation, right? That's outside of what he would normally do. And you usually see that on the end of their crime spree, where they've elevated to that, where they're becoming more brazen and they're willing to take more careless and they're willing to take more risk because of whatever their impulsivity increasing, whatever it might be to have him commit this act against Carla allegedly,

and then go back to doing things like this where he's breaking into homes, it kind of doesn't make sense. It seems like maybe, oh, okay, he did it that one time and then he goes back. No, that pattern doesn't really line up. Doesn't mean you would take him off the list. I would 100% see why they would keep him on a short list, but he wouldn't be my top guy based on the fact that the way he conducts himself doesn't seem to line up with Carla's offender. So doing these cases has taught me a lot because usually you'd look at somebody like William Wilhoyt or Tommy Ray Neeland and you'd be like, oh, this has to be them. They've attacked other women of the same age. They lived in Fort Worth. They were operating in Fort Worth

at the time that this happened. Like, this is a no-brainer. But then as you start to go through these cases and you're actually seeing through the eyes of police officers who are covering the cases, there's like dozens of people, dozens of people who were in Fort Worth at the time who were doing things similar similar had a similar mo that you could say oh that this person could be responsible this person could be responsible and that's kind of terrifying because you would think you're like you know chillin in a city something happens to a victim and then you know you look at the guy who did it or a guy who did something similar and

you can say that guy did both of these things but then you look at like five six seven cases that are similar and you have to have the understanding that three, four, five or six, seven people could be responsible for those crimes, that there could just be that many people out there who are capable of hurting other people. And it's not just one person, one serial killer, Jack the Ripper type hiding in the shadows, waiting for a young woman to be by herself. It's just like this violent streak in multiple people that has them lashing out and hurting people around them. And it's not just an easy fix where you find the one bad apple in Fort Worth, the one guy who has a tendency to

hurt young women. And now you've got your guy and all the cases are solved. It's not that easy. No, unfortunately, and we've said this before, the pool of suspects in cases like this is abundant. And that's why I always recommend you guys go on the website and look at the sex offender registration in your area. And you're going to be petrified because you would think oh my god how many people are out there or just in my small community that could have done something to a child it's probably one or two you know if that right maybe a handful and you go on there and your map lights up like a christmas tree we in law enforcement have access to all that we're notified

of all these types of individuals and we have access to their criminal records so even though you have john or joe living next door to you and you say hi to him and he's cutting the lawn and it seems like he's a good guy, you've borrowed tools from him once in a while, you may not know it, but 10, 15 years ago, John might've been in prison for molesting a child. And now he's out. He's a sex offender, but he's out So you just you don't know just by looking at someone unless there's something obvious That there there may be something in their past that you should be aware of So to your point when you have a case like this and you're looking Geographically at the surrounding area and how many people in that area could do something like this

The list is a lot longer than you'd like it to be so yeah It's it's a big hurdle to climb because the reality is you might have 100, 200 people that could potentially do something like this. And the reality is maybe none of them, maybe one of them, but maybe none of them did it. So it could be someone completely on the outside of that list. This might be their first time, or they just might've never been caught before. So it's an uphill battle. It's not easy. If it was easy to solve these cases,

we wouldn't have a show, right? Well, no, exactly. And I just actually, just recently, like at the end of last month, oh my God, it's terrible. These two teenage girls, 14 and 16, I think they went to sleep over at the house of a friend. And it turns out that this friend's stepfather was a registered

sex offender who was supposed to be going to court that following Monday to answer charges for like sexual assault of a minor and he ended up taking these girls and basically not taking them but killing them killing them killing his stepchildren killing his wife killing himself so the police show up after these two girls are reported missing they show up and they find seven bodies at this guy's house and Basically, I mean I think we can imagine what may have happened to these girls considering He's a registered sex offender who was about to go to court again for being a sex offender I'm sure we can figure out what happened to them before he took

their lives. And the one thing that stood out to me is the parents when they were, you know, questioned about this and this just happened. They were like, we had no idea. Our daughters had hung out with his daughter before they'd been to his house. We had no idea that he had such a dark past. And it's in a very small town in like Oklahoma, like very small town. I think they said there's like 2000 people or maybe like 6000 people that live there. But either way, it's crazy to me that somebody could be just like this, your friendly neighborhood sex offender, and you'd have no idea what past they had. And you're just letting your kids go there, not knowing what's what's in his past. And that's why I

always strong. That's why I get so mad when my husband's like, oh, Bella's across the street or friends. And I'm like, do you know the father? Like, do you know these people? And he's like, oh, he's a normal guy. How do you know? Like, did you even look his name up in the computer? Like, I'm always looking their names up. If somebody had looked at this dude's name up in the computer, they would have known because he's registered sex offender right there. Yeah. Scary world out there. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right, we're back and we are going to talk about the third person that police questioned in relation to Carla Walker's murder. In 1977, a man named Jimmy Dean Sasser of Paris, Texas,

walked into a Murfreesboro, Tennessee, police station and confessed to the murder of Carla Walker. On February 1st, 1978, the Fort Worth Star printed an article that said, quote, although officials still express private doubts about the man's guilt, an indictment was returned Tuesday naming Jimmy Dean Sasser as the person who kidnapped and killed Carla Walker here in 1974. Sasser is the man described by Sheriff Lon Evans as a person who hates women and who's been placed at least twice in mental hospitals, who walked into the police station in Murfreesboro in November and wanted to confess to the Walker killing. He was returned to Tarrant County in December.

District Attorney Tim Curry, who in December expressed reservations about Sasser's possible guilt in the Walker death, declined Tuesday to discuss details of the case. No new evidence in the killing has been discovered since Sasser's return to Tarrant County, and the indictment is based on what is far from a perfect case. The proof requirements of a grand jury are a lot less than the proof requirements of a district court, Curry said, indicating it often takes far more evidence to convict than to indict. Sheriff Evans, however, said Sasser was in Fort Worth when the Walker death occurred and could be guilty. He admits he did it, the sheriff said, and he knows a lot about the case. But a considerable portion of the factual information Sasser has told investigators

was published in the Star-Telegram and other newspapers in 1974 and 1975, the sheriff acknowledged. For a time, it was hoped that Sasser could be given a polygraph examination, Evans said, but a Dallas psychiatrist saw Sasser and decided that a polygraph wouldn't work on that type of individual. Evans and his deputies indicated they were unable to say on the record exactly what type of person Sasser is, but only called him abnormal. He's a weirdo, Evans said. He needs confinement somewhere, whether it's in a penitentiary or a mental hospital. He's dangerous and needs treatment. He needs to be taken out of society. Another thing about Sasser is that he has blackouts. He can't remember things, end quote. Although Sasser gave a detailed statement on how he had committed the crime, he left many things out and his story has many inconsistencies. And later,

he would recant his confession, claiming he'd been stressed and depressed due to the end of his marriage and he'd been on copious amounts of cocaine at the time of his confession. And this once again left Fort Worth police with no new leads and no viable suspects. And the case went cold until 2019, when new information was released to the public in April, hoping to generate new leads. And we're going to talk about that new information in a second, but yo, they really depended on polygraphs a lot back in the day, didn't they? I think there was a point where this was a newer technology and they thought that this could be what DNA is today, right? Where it's not until these types of technologies are tested in the courts where you start to learn the flaws that they have, because now you have experts who are against this type of technology who come out with statistical information and facts that contradict the efficacy of the technology,

right? Like how good is it really? And I think over time, what has happened with polygraphs is time and time again, you've had cases where it's been proven that someone who was found to be deceptive had nothing to do with the case or conversely passed it and was absolutely guilty. So that even if you have one or two of those, it weakens its credibility in a court across the country and you have case law that comes out and then slowly it goes away. I think polygraphs are exactly what they are. It's a tool. It's a tool that can be used in conjunction with everything else, but at no point should it be a reason that someone is arrested. Never mind going to court, polygraph for ID con years ago and it was intimidating and I've done it for the FBI too. But the one that I did in person, it was like in front of like 400 people and they give me the polygraph test while I'm on stage. It was,

they asked some, some questions that were more about like personal things that like, Hey, have you ever worn makeup before? And I was like, yeah. And everyone starts laughing and stuff because I didn't want to say no. Cause I knew it was going to spike on the screen behind me. But, you know, with TV and stuff. Wait, have you worn makeup before? Yeah. I mean, for Breaking Homicide, I was wearing makeup every day. Yeah, for Breaking Homicide, Derek.

Yeah. And in my own personal life. And what if I did, Stephanie? And what if I did? I mean, I would just like to see it. If you're doing it, I want to see it. I want to see what your technique's like. Are you blending?

Are you contouring? I'm doing it all. You know, I use a level five. I don't even know what that is, but I'm just saying I use that. It's nothing. It's nothing. But back on track, I would like to get someone on here so we can ask some questions to be educated on what it's used for today. I know it's used a lot in the private sector because obviously it's not being used to convict someone. It's being used as a tool to decide whether someone would be good for a specific job. I know it's used a lot in loss prevention where they'll have someone come in and if there's a high rate of employee theft, they'll use these in some cases.

So we got to get someone on here at some point. We don't really do interview style shows, but I think at some point we could do it as an extra. Don't do an interview. We need to find somebody who has a polygraph and can give it to us and then we'll take it because i guarantee you i can beat it man i can beat it cool as a cucumber all right my heart rate won't even spike my heart rate's always spiked so they just won't know the difference that's my baseline man stressed is my baseline well that's what i was

gonna say the only reason you're not you they're gonna they're gonna put going to put you on the machine and go, we can't test this woman. She's crazy. She's borderline about to have a heart attack and we haven't even started. All the time, right? It's going to be perfect. But I am concerned about like the questions that they would ask because I don't necessarily want to like have to be honest about them. I did that last minute. They're like, Hey, do you want to be the one to get examined? I'm like, no. And sure enough, I end up on stage. I was the junior host at that point. So I got stuck with it.

But Lisa Rybakov, she's a foot. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let us know in the comments if you're watching on YouTube. Do you want us to take a polygraph? No, you can't. I'm not. You are too.

No, I've done it already. Do you want Derek and I to take a polygraph? Yes, we both need to secondly i have an idea for like a true crime show and it's going to be called the polygraph ruined my life because basically i can't even imagine the numbers of people in like the 70s 80s 90s that were literally just like thrown in prison or harassed by the police for years because they failed a freaking polygraph because they were having a bad day. And all of a sudden they were like Ted Bundy over here. So I can't even imagine. You've met Lisa actually. Oh yeah.

You've met Lisa at CrimeCon. You've met her. She's a, she's a polygrapher. She's a private investigator. She's spoken. You've definitely met her before. You know, if you, if you've seen her, seen her i follow her on instagram but she she's someone we could easily updo her her father's the one that examined me at id oh it's a family affair oh yeah her dad was one and she's one now and she does it for a living a little bit in social situations when things become very overwhelming i tend to disassociate and go someplace else in my head or crawl under a table. So sometimes I will meet people and then have no recollection of it. Fair enough. Well, we can set that up. At some point, if you're down here or whatever, we can have her come up or whatever. Reach out, man. Reach out. I want to make it happen

ASAP. So anyways, we were talking about new information that was released to the public in April of 2019, but it wasn't new information to the police. It was just new information to the public. And I want to definitely get your opinion on it after we talk about it of why it wasn't released before 2019 when this happened in 1974. But the Fort Worth police released a letter that had been addressed to Detective Lieutenant Oliver Ball of the Fort Worth Police Department and sent shortly after Carla's body had been found in 1974. The author was anonymous, and they signed their names with only ones and zeros. They signed their name 10100. But whoever it was claimed they knew who had killed Carla Walker. They wrote this person's name down, although it was redacted, and then they wrote, P.S., it's hard to say, but it's true. They've never released what name this person wrote, by the way, but a news release from the Fort Worth Police Department stated, quote, The author of this letter is encouraged to come forward to speak with detectives about his or her knowledge of the murder. It's the hope of the Fort Worth Police Department that this person will provide valuable information that may bring peace and closure to Carla's family after 45 long years. End quote.

But I mean, at that point in 2019, there just wasn't much of Carla's family left. Both of her parents had passed away, never knowing what had happened to their daughter. But Carla's brother, Jim, who had been just 11 when she was murdered, he was still hoping that the letter would bring in new leads, saying, quote, someone knows something. The author of this letter clearly wants to get something off their chest. It's time for somebody to do the right thing and step forward, end quote. So we're going to talk more about Jim Walker, Carla's brother, in a minute. But why do you think from 1974 to 2019, 2019 is the first time that they released this letter. So what I want to say is there was a couple articles that said this detective, Detective Oliver Ball, he'd gotten the letter and then he just didn't tell anybody about it. OK, like he got it, put it in the file. And it wasn't until 2018 when two new detectives from the cold case department took it over. And that's when they found the letter.

And they were like, where did this letter come from? We've never heard of this letter before. It's like not in anybody's police report. It doesn't look like this was ever followed up on. It definitely was never released to the public or the media. Like what was done with this letter? It doesn't seem like anything was done with the letter. It was almost like it was received and then put into the file and then just kind of like left. So it could be a few things. And I know you're going to get aggravated

by these answers, but first off, just off the top, easy answer, negligence, right? It comes in, he gets the letter, he puts it in a file that he's going to look at later, never gets around to it because of whatever other cases or other leads in this case, whatever it might be, it never gets followed up on. At minimum, it should have been taken into evidence. A report should have, a seizure report should have been filed on it. It should have been added to a narrative so that anybody else who was involved with the case would be aware of this letter as well. As far as not releasing it to the public, I completely understand that angle. If you get someone who comes in and says, hey, I did it, or they have

someone who they feel did it, and at some point this individual describes a letter that they sent and they're able to say what those things were in that letter, they can use it as a form of guilt knowledge. If they put it out to the public, basically that note is now worth less than the paper it's written on. So if you have something that could be used later, you don't want to give all your cards away. And, but, but, but if what you're telling me is true, as far as not being released to the other investigators and they weren't even aware of it, that's a problem. Yeah. It looks like this person kind of wrote somebody's name in there. And it doesn't look like that person whose name was written was ever like investigated, because a lot of the media outlets said that they just kind of like found this letter. Like it was

like, oh, where did this come from? Not like, oh, we've been holding this back for guilt knowledge. But now almost 50 years later, we're ready to release it to see if it brings in any new leads. And like, how could it bring in any new leads? You redacted the one piece of information that's valuable. All you put out was like somebody saying, I know who did it. Blank, blank, blank. You can't see who did it. And it's sad, but it's true.

And then some weird signature with like ones and zeros. So maybe they were hoping that somebody would like code break the signature or like come up with some crazy thing that the signature meant like a zodiac killer kind of cold code breaker thing but um either way i don't see what anybody besides the person who wrote the letter coming forward and saying that was me i don't see how the public could do anything with what they released it just seemed like an odd thing to do it seemed like they just like found it and they were like, ah, well, what the hell? Let's release it and see what happens because we didn't know this even existed for 50 years. Again, it could be one of two things. And here's the bad part, right? Let's say for a second, the detective did look into this person.

Well, clearly they didn't write it down. Or if they did, they wrote it in their notebook and never transcribed it to like whatever database that they were keeping at the time where there was paper files, I'm assuming, or something of a digital file. They never put it in a place where others could find it. So therefore it didn't happen. And this is why I've talked about it numerous times where you're doing an investigation and multiple people involved. If it's not put into a system that everyone has access to, it didn't happen. And you can have people doing the same thing and not getting anywhere where you have some detective who wasn't aware that you've already looked into this person because you never made them aware of it. So could be that situation where the detective looked into it and it went nowhere. But it also could be a situation where they put it aside and just never followed up on it, which that wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Could be one of the two. And at this point, when they find it years later, yeah, I have no problem putting it out because if they haven't,

the person hasn't came forward yet, there's probably not much that can be done with it, except maybe a handwriting analysis if you have a potential suspect. And if you do, the fact that it was publicized isn't going to change the handwriting analysis to some degree, unless the person who's falsely admitting to doing it

also learned the handwriting style of the note that was made public just to kind of validate who they are. That would seem like a lot of work. Yeah, it did seem kind of pointless to even release it. Like, what are you going to get? I think it's just like transparency at that point. I think at that point it was like, we're still working on this.

Yeah, we got nothing. So, you know, maybe you do. We got nothing. So here's something. Here's the thing about that. You say it's pointless and you know what you may be right But here's here's something for you again to the detectives. It means nothing But how do we know let's just assume for a second that letter was written by a guy That his wife or daughters he there might be something that's specific to him

Maybe the way he wrote something where they immediately go. Wow I've never seen that before, except when my dad used to write like that. So although it might not mean nothing to you or I, there may be someone out there who immediately looks at it and go, oh my God, that little dot that's there, that's something that my dad used to do in all of his writings. And I have other examples of them here. You never know. You have nothing to lose essentially. Would you call the police if you saw a letter like that? And you're like, oh, my dad does a dot like that over his eye? Would you call the police? No. But people have. We know that. People have. And well, first off, let's just be real here. Most of the time, not all the time,

there will be indicators if you know someone that well that maybe they're a little off, right? You might not acknowledge those things, but there may be times when they've disappeared or that's raised an eyebrow, but you never thought much of it and then if something like this comes out where i see something that is specific to that same person father brother whatever if they could be responsible for killing innocent people or any or sexual assaulting innocent women i would 1000 turn them in without hesitation but if i'm on the fence where it could be a million people that made their dots like that, no, would I make my dad or brother a suspect when they could be just similar handwriting? No, probably not.

It would have to be more than that. You'd have to be like, oh yeah, I think they're capable of that. Yeah, I would like to think that I would know. I know there are cases where people are like, I had no idea. But in many situations, they're probably displaying some type of behavior at home that may be indicative of someone capable of doing something like that. So the letter or the picture or whatever it might be that's released by police is just the icing on the cake at that point. And so if you're not turning them in or at least making the police aware of them, you're actually, in my opinion, maybe an accomplice to some degree

if you're helping making sure they don't get caught. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I agree completely. You could be in denial, but yeah, that's a problem. Two different things, right? Denial or just like, hey, you know what? I don't want to know. Look the other way. I don't want to know. So Carla's brother, Jim Walker, he'd been preparing for the day that he might come face to face with his sister's killer since high school. He'd started working out. He was running every day to keep up with his strength and endurance, and he had wanted to become a police officer. This guy's funny, Jim Walker. I love him, honestly, because he's just really upfront. He's not politically correct. He said, like,

I was running and working out all the time so that basically I could beat the shit out of this guy if I ever saw him, like kill him, like take him someplace and nobody would ever find him and he says he wanted to become a police officer so he could like get onto the cold case force and then like get access to his sister's file he wasn't like I wanted to become a police officer so I could make sure that you know the something like this didn't happen to anybody else's sister. He's like, I wanted to be a police officer so I could finally see her file. That's kind of been like withheld from us and kind of kept like, you know, under wraps. I wanted to see what did the police have. So maybe I guess he could find like track down each suspect himself.

I don't know. But I really like anywhere near that case. But that's that's being honest. I mean, I don't know, man. I don't know. He may have have never been anywhere near that case but that's yeah that's being honest i mean i don't know man i don't know he may have he may have worked it out however even if he got it he would be getting punished for it they wouldn't want anyone to want him any he might not care at that point he may take the files and run that's what i'm saying he might not even care they might have been the only reason he made it seem like that was the only reason that might have been the only reason he ever wanted to become a police officer. And this was a career he actively pursued, but it wasn't in the cards for him because he got into the training academy. But as he was training to be a police recruit, has like a dog, you know, like a support animal, things like that. Just terrible because this is a guy who literally kind of really became obsessed with the case. And even the police were like, yeah, he's helped us. You know, he's helped us like look through these leads. And he's always been very cooperative and he's always like had really great insights. So he probably would have made a really good police officer at the end of the day. Yeah. You see some of these web sleuths, even people who do these

things now, they didn't choose this line of work. They were chosen in a way where they had a family member that was a victim of a crime and they changed the trajectory of their own lives to kind of dedicate themselves to not only helping their own case, but also the cases for others. So the common story, unfortunate common story, but it's something we see all the time. Well, I think once you dedicate so much time to one specific case, like if it's your, if your family member's case, you spend years and years trying to figure out what happened. And if there comes a point where you do, it's almost like there's closure, but now there's like an empty spot because I dedicated and devoted so much of my life to this. And now I feel like there's a hole in me and I have to fill it with

something and almost like a shark can't stop moving, you know, or they'll die. Like they have to keep going. They have to keep going with the same vein. And so they go on and they transition to another case because now they feel so empty and unproductive if they're not pursuing this actively. And I completely understand that. I also think it's that there's a community there. Like these individuals, they kind of, they all talk to each other. They try to help each other.

They support each other. And if they are able to solve their own case or it is solved just naturally through the, you know, through law enforcement purposes, they want to help because they know what it's like to lose someone. And these other individuals have become friends of theirs and they want to do what they can to contribute to try to help them solve their case as well. So it is a very tight knit group. And you see a lot of them interacting with each other on Twitter, family members who have been involved in situations like this, where they're very supportive of each other. And I'm all for it. What better motivator than having it be something that's affected you personally, a loved one of your own?

Yeah, detectives try to put themselves in that mindset. So they're able to motivate themselves to work as hard, but you're never going to be able to replicate that ambition that an actual family member would have for their loved one. I completely agree. Let's take our final break and we'll be right back. Okay, we're back. The same year, 2018, two detectives with the Fort Worth Police Cold Case Division took another look at Carla's case. This was detectives Leah Wagner and Jeff Bennett, and they knew that articles of Carla's clothing had mal DNA on them. And they also knew that the detectives on the case in 1974 had done

a great job of collecting and preserving this evidence. And now with advancements in DNA technology, they were hoping to be able to get some results. According to the Fort Worth Star Telegram, Carla's case had been featured on the podcast Gone Cold, which specifically focuses on cold cases in Texas. And this inspired two women, Diane Coy Kendall and Kathleen Barnett, who are friends of the Walker family, to kind of contemplate if they could get Carla's story on one of these big true crime shows like Dateline, would that bring in more leads? Would that get more exposure? Would that get more tips coming in? Because just being on the podcast had already brought so many new eyes and ears to the case. So this is actually a cool offshoot and kind of makes me feel a little bit closer to this case,

because we've both been in this situation. Diane, she actually attended CrimeCon in Nashville, Tennessee, and she handed out brochures to all the big names, Nancy Grace, Keith Morrison, and Paul Holes, who at that time was hosting a true crime show on Oxygen called The DNA of Murder. And I say that we understand how this is because we go to CrimeCon and we have many family members come up to us and they give us, you know, printouts of what happened with their loved one, where the case is at. They have pictures, they have details, they have police reports. They want to talk about the case. They want to do that specifically, hoping that you will cover their loved one's case and get more attention on it. So I know exactly what's happening here, and I can see it going down. Diane Quay Kendall just walking around CrimeCon, handing out these brochures, trying to get somebody to pay attention to Carla Walker's case. And I think it's great. I think it's great. And that's the thing I will tell you I love the most about CrimeCon is getting to talk to these family members and friends and loved ones of these victims who are literally so passionate about helping to solve the case that they will go to these conventions.

They will go to different states. They will make themselves, not saying they're obnoxious, but they make themselves obnoxious. Like they don't let you forget that they're there. They don't let you forget the person that back because she was also able to do that. And she was able to talk to so many more people and to talk about Praveen, which is something I know that she loves doing, by the way. She loves talking about Praveen. She loves having any opportunity to get his case in front of more people. And I interviewed Nancy Grace that year, and so she was able to talk to Nancy Grace. And it was just a great atmosphere because everyone there is supportive of you. Everyone there is supportive of what you're trying to do. So it's just a cool thing to see that Carla Walker's case was kind of solved or as we're going to find out. I do believe that a big reason Carla Walker's case was solved

is because this woman went to crime con and made sure that the people who could do something about it, people had influence in the true crime community knew about Carla and would talk about her. Yeah. There's so many cases. How could they know about them? Exactly. They can't. I saw when people, when we cover cases, especially, especially the more obscure ones and like, Derek, how don't you know about this? It's like, dude, there's a million cases I don't know about. And there's probably cases that I've read about or worked on that you don't know about. There's like, dude, there's a million cases I don't know about. And there's probably cases that I've read about or worked on that you don't know about. There's just unfortunately so many out there. It's just, it's a never ending list. And what do they say? The squeaky wheel

gets the oil. Yeah. Like that's getting it in front of your face is the way to do it. And that's what was done here. Well, after CrimeCon, Paul Holes and the producers on his show, they were actually very interested in Carla's case. And they contacted the cold case detectives working on the case. And they basically said, hey, we'll pay for this DNA testing. We'll pay $18,000 to cover the cost of DNA testing on Carla's clothing. And this was huge for the Fort Worth police, for the cold case division, for Detective Wagners and Bennett, because they had been going over everything. They had boxes upon boxes of literally handwritten notes. They were going over everything, trying to find something that they could hold on to,

something that would give them a fresh lead or get a break, and they just couldn't. And they kind of figured out at one point, like this DNA is the key. However, the money's not there for this DNA testing. The money's there for current DNA testing and like current cases. But these cold cases are not going to have the funds diverted to them simply because of the fact that they are cold cases. And there's more pressing cases happening with, you know, better quality DNA, like newer DNA, things like that. So they just knew the Carlos case, which had been cold for so many decades, was just not going to be at the top of the priority list to receive funding, which is why we specifically wanted to make sure that a portion of the proceeds from Criminal Coffee, when we started Criminal Coffee Co., were going towards

exactly this because this is needed. Yeah. I mean mean Preble Penny. I'd never heard of it before we got involved This is one of those things where if it's not for someone like us That's gonna spend the money on those types of cases. They're just gonna sit in the queue forever Yeah, and in this situation, you know, it was Paul holes and the DNA of murder and so they took the clothing evidence from Carla's case and they sent it to the serological research institute in California and they were able to find bodily fluid male semen in a few different places but specifically on the strap of Carla's bra. They were able to develop a single source DNA profile that belonged to an unknown male and they entered this into CODIS

but there was no match in the nationwide database, which contains the DNA of millions of criminal offenders. So the person, whoever had done this to Carla, just had never been arrested before. Or had been arrested, but no DNA was taken. They could have been arrested for a misdemeanor or something. There's only certain crimes where they're actually given a buckle swab. Yes, exactly. So could have been arrested for something small time, but not arrested to the point where the police or law enforcement felt it necessary to put their DNA on file. That's right. So the DNA of murder would actually air an working on Carla's case with a man named David Middleman, CEO of

Othram, a forensic DNA testing lab located just outside of Houston, Texas. Now, at this point, Othram is always in the news as far as true crime goes. They've been integral in helping solve hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of cases. It just feels like every single day we see another case that they've helped solve, another cold case, which I think is absolutely amazing. to test to the point where the detectives had to decide, like, do we let Othram take this DNA or do we hold on to it until DNA technology has progressed even further? Because if we use this DNA and it's it doesn't give us anything new, then it's wasted. There's nothing left. And that's a really bad position to be put in, I think. They had to make that decision, and they did make the decision to give it to Othram because Middleman said he knew that even though other labs had

failed to identify the suspect in Carla's murder, he felt confident that Othram's cutting-edge DNA technology, which he called forensic-grade genomic sequencing, could not only develop a full profile, but could also utilize genealogical mapping to put a name and a face to Carla's killer. Kristen Middleman, Othram's chief development officer, told ClickToHouston.com, quote, we actually take the DNA evidence and we sequence it, and we look at tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of markers on the DNA. And we are able to triangulate someone's identity. We create a profile that we upload to either geological databases or other tools that we can use to look at and tell you who someone is. End quote. Very, very cool. Very cool.

Yeah, I've had the opportunity to speak to both Dave and Kristen numerous times. And yeah, they know their stuff. They definitely know their stuff. And as you mentioned, they're working on a lot of cases. And there's a lot more cases that you guys aren't aware of yet that they're involved in as well, that as time progresses and they're able to put it out publicly, you'll be hearing about them. Absolutely. And it worked in Carla's case because on July 4th, 2020, David Middleman called Detective Bennett with good news. He said they'd connected the DNA from Carla's bra strap to a family tree, specifically to three brothers who all had the last name McCurley. Oh, there he is. There he is. Interesting. So Detective Jeff Bennett, he'd actually been the one who was

spending hours a day with the files from Carla's case. He was like, hey, I feel like I have heard that surname before. I recognize that last name. He said, this is the man who had been questioned in 1974 named Glenn McCurley. And he was questioned in 74 a couple months after Carla's murder because he had owned a Ruger, which we've already talked about why that's important to the case. But according to McCurley, the weapon had been stolen. So they were like, okay, well, we've questioned this guy before. We didn't do anything with him back then, but now they're saying the DNA is leading to him, but the police had to be sure, right? So they went to his house when he didn't know that they were there and they collected the garbage

that he put out. And we've talked about this. You've talked about cases that you've done. Yeah. We've talked about cases. Yeah, exactly. We've talked about cases where the police do exactly this and they pulled like a cup with a straw and they tested the DNA and it came back that it was a match to McCurley, but they had to still be sure. Right. So Leo Wagner and Jeff Bennett, the cold case detectives, they went and paid Glenn McCurley a visit. They showed up at his door unannounced. They knocked on his door and he answered it and he invited them inside. Glenn McCurley was still living in Fort Worth.

And from what anyone could tell, he was a completely average man living a completely average life. He and his wife, Judy, were still married, happily, it seemed, from Judy's Facebook posts. Like this woman would constantly post like, oh, I'm so in love with him. She posted a picture of him when he was younger. And she was like, when I look at you, I see I still see this young man every day in front of me. Like she was clearly in love with him. And Glenn and Judy had raised two upstanding boys, Craig, who would be named valedictorian of his 1982 class at the same high school Carla Walker had attended, and Roddy, whose marriage was announced in the paper in October of 1994. Glenn McCurley had started working as a truck

driver, hauling prefabricated slabs of concrete to construction sites, and Judy was a favorite at the daycare that she worked at, which was part of the church the family attended regularly. Everyone said Judy was so nice. She was so maternal. She was so warm with the children. She was amazing. And her husband, Glenn, wasn't as warm and like approachable and personable, but he was, you know, an upstanding citizen. He did good things for, you know, the people around him.

Apparently, he would donate his time to the church to do odd jobs. He'd fix things that needed fixing. He'd mow the lawn there, change light bulbs, stuff like that. Both Glenn and Judy were highly respected in their congregation and in their community, where Glenn was also known to help out a neighbor with anything they needed, whether they needed help on their car engine or rewiring the electricity in their homes. Now, one neighbor did mention that Glenn had an odd habit of saying, take a look at that, every time a pretty girl passed by. But this neighbor said, quote,

he never did say anything vulgar about her, at least not to me. He wasn't, what's the word, creepy, end quote. In his free time, Glenn McCurley liked to watch home improvement shows, and he worked with his hands a lot. He made things like barbecue pits and picnic tables that he would sell. And every week, like clockwork, he and his wife Judy would go to church. And every week, he would drive Judy to Walmart so they could get their groceries. Sometimes he would even bring Judy to Polito's, a local restaurant down the street from his house, where Carla's brother Jim Walker also went often with his own family. It seemed like Glenn was a good husband and a good father, a normal guy who was just often seen working on his yard and

would give you a hand if you needed it. A guy with no criminal record and no violent tendencies who'd even been given a shout out in the paper of August of 2008 when Fort Worth resident Joy Stevens praised McCurley and his wife Judy for returning her lost wallet saying quote The world needs more folks like this The only thing that ever happened to Glenn that was out of the ordinary Was the tragic event that happened in 1988 when his son Craig was killed By a drunk driver as he was driving home after celebrating his college graduation. I think you know a guy, huh? Oh, I know it Isn't that insane?

Yeah. I mean, that just goes back to what we were saying earlier. As far as like, could have someone who on the surface seems perfectly normal, but when they're alone or they think they're alone, completely different person. That's why you always got to be aware of your surroundings. And there's maybe not an indicator to pick up on something like this. It's not like it's your fault if you don't. But that's why you always have to proceed with some level of skepticism about everybody, not because you're a bra strap or something like that, and they think

it belongs to this familial DNA of the brothers or whatever. But if you really want to make your case concrete, the best thing you can do is go get the direct DNA from the person that's in question and use that recent DNA to determine whether or not what you have is accurate. And when you're going to court, you're going to need that. You're going to need that. And this is a way of doing that. Or you can just get a search warrant from a judge if you think you have enough. But the problem with that is if you do it, yeah, you might get the DNA, but then that person could run, they could kill themselves. There's a lot of things they could do. So if you can get it like this, I know there's some people out there that don't love this,

but it's the way it works. And I'm all for it. I mean, if you throw your trash out there and you're doing stuff like this, we don't have many options left. You know, it's really hard to get stuff like this. And I know some people are against it, but, you know, it does help solve cases like this. Even look at Koberger, same thing. So I think also, you know, they need to double check, right? And getting the warrant or like getting the trash and comparing it and saying it's a match.

Okay, it's a match, but you don't know where that cup came from. It could have been one of Glenn McCurley's brothers. Right. Who was at his house, maybe, you know, and had a drink. And now you don't know for sure. It's Glenn McCurley. So now you have to actually get the DNA from his mouth. But then at that point, you have extra ammo that you can bring to a judge to get

a warrant to compel that DNA sample. And you also have the ability to put this person under arrest while you're waiting for this DNA sample to come back. You already sort of have this case built where you don't have to worry about him running or destroying evidence or, you know, like taking himself out and the rest of his family in his house because he's afraid that he's about to go to prison yeah by the time he learns that you got him it's already too late for him yeah but the whole thing about him just being completely unassuming and and everybody they had tons of interviews with neighbors and stuff in the paper and these people were like uh were stunned there's absolutely no way glenn mccurley could have done anything like this right everybody

was stunned and i think that's why people like chris watts and scott peterson are so compelling in the true crime world because it's one thing if you have this like this guy who looks like a criminal right maybe he's or what we think a criminal looks like you know maybe he's got some teardrop tattoos maybe he's been in prison a few times. Maybe he's done things that escalated to this. And it's not surprising. Like, oh, yeah, we all kind of knew that Jared or whatever was going to eventually do something crazy one day. But when you have somebody like Scott Peterson, like Chris Watts, who everybody around was like, oh, they'd give you the shirt off their back. They were so sweet, so kind, so normal, like this, this and that. They wore polo shirts and they went golfing. When you have something like that, that's so unexpected. It does send this like this fear through you because then you're like, the guy who, you know, who serves me every time I go to this restaurant, this person could be a psychopath.

And I don't even know. And it's I mean, it's not the best thing for society to feel that way. But it does put you on guard for anybody, no matter what they look like, no matter what mask they wear, because you know that they could be wearing a mask. Yep. One hundred percent. Unfortunate truth. So when Glenn McCurley saw the police outside his door in the fall of 2020, he invited them in. He even agreed to let them swab his mouth for DNA. And like I like, oh, we're here because of this girl who went missing and turned up murdered in 1974. And Judy was like, oh, say no more.

I know exactly who you're talking about. You're talking about Carla Walker. And Judy was like, I feel so bad for this family. I know that the Walkers had lived on Williams Road. And I know that they kept Carla's room exactly the same as she had left it for years. And they even kept her car parked in the driveway for years. And Judy said every time she would drive by their house and see the car there, it would break her heart. And McCurley, once again, he denied having anything to do with Carla Walker's death. He said, I don't even know her. I don't know what you're talking

about, et cetera, et cetera. Which by the way, great when they say that. That's awesome when they say that as an investigator, because you know, you have DNA. And so the better choice is to say, yeah, I met her a few times and yeah, we interacted. And as much as you can put them together, yourself together, that complicates the case for investigators. But when you say never met her before, don't know her, had no interaction with her, you're actually hurting yourself. Yeah, but at this point, He don't know that they have dm That's why he's you're giving him the rope. He's hanging himself just by making those because that right there might seem insignificant Oh, yeah, I never met her before they're writing that down

They're putting it into an affidavit and they're saying hey just so you know during this interview He stated on multiple occasions in front of his wife that he had never met the victim before. Therefore, what you're saying without saying it is there's no reason his DNA should be anywhere near her or her property. Yeah. But you know, he's also like what in his late seventies at this point. So Glenn McCurley should have done been put in the home improvement TV shows on pause and started watching some true crime. Cause then he would have known a little something about something called DNA. All right. And you would have known if they're asking you for your DNA, they probably have DNA already compared to.

Yeah. Okay. You dumb ass. So he, he just, I mean, what is he going to say though? They're like,

can we have your DNA? And what's he going to say? No. Then he's going to look super suspicious. He was so blindsided. He had no idea what to do. He had not prepared for it. And that's because he had 50 years to fall into a false sense of security. I mean, I guess for the majority of that 50 years, it was a real sense of security because

ain't nobody was onto him, right? Nobody thought it was him. So he was in a real sense of security. And imagine getting away with something like that for that long. Yeah, you're totally going to think if they couldn't get me then, how can they get me now? Especially if you didn't grow up in the age of DNA and it was just like this burgeoning technology that you didn't bother to even like read up on or find out about. So once again, they get the swab from his mouth and then they arrested him. They arrested him. He was arrested on September 21st, 2020, at which time he was charged with capital murder. The police interviewed McCurley at the station, and at first, obviously, he was a little hesitant to open up, but he was finally confronted with the evidence that they had, and the police were like, listen, we know

you did it. We know that you must have been with her that night because your DNA is on her, and McCurley said, quote, if you all know all that, why didn't you come get me back then or something? End quote. And Detective Leo Wagner responded, quote, because they didn't know, but we do. End quote. Badass. Oh, I just love to say that to somebody one time, one time. And during the interview, McCurley would eventually break down and confess sort of to what he had done to Carla. He initially claimed he hadn't done anything that night besides save Carla from being assaulted by her boyfriend. McCurley claimed that he had been driving around that night. He was drinking beer, drinking whiskey, pulling into places and parking. And so one of the places that he pulled into to park and keep drinking was the parking lot of the bowling alley.

And that's where he witnessed Rodney assaulting Carla in the car. McCurley said, quote, he was hitting on her and I was drinking beer in the parking lot and I saw him. He was screaming and I went over there and opened the door and knocked him off her. End quote. From there, McCurley claims he pulled Carla into his own vehicle and she was so grateful for him helping her get away from her boyfriend. She calmed down and they talked for a little bit. And she was just appreciative, so appreciative that she gave Glenn McCurley a hug. And then something happened and the wires were crossed because as Carla gave him a hug, he thought she wanted more from him. He misunderstood.

And so he went in for a kiss. And that was when things went bad. He said that he did have sex with her, but it was consensual sex. And then he let her out of the car and he didn't know what happened to her after that. So Detective Wagner said, OK, we're getting somewhere. But who's going to believe that she didn't want to have sex with her own boyfriend that she told everybody she was madly in love with, but she would have sex with you? A random stranger she just met. Who's going to believe that, right? And still, Glenn McCurley denied raping Carla. He said,

no, I didn't take her anywhere and rape her or kill her. But after we had sex, I did start choking her because I was afraid that she was going to tell on me or something, but she was alive when I drove away from her. This is, I mean, obviously terrible, but from an investigatory perspective, this is amazing. He's putting himself at the scene of the crime. They're slowly peeling back the layers and he's revealing more and more. He's never going to come right out and say, most of the time, never going to come right out and say what actually happened. But just the fact that he's admitting he was at the bowling alley that night, that in and of itself would have been great to add all of this other context to it. He's piling on to their case right now.

This is what they needed. Yeah. And I mean, it's like staged at this point because now at first he's like, I don't even know her. Never met her in my life. And then they're like, your DNA is on her. And he's like, OK, OK. So, yeah, I kind of knew her just that one night. I saw her.

I saved her from her boyfriend and we had sex Okay, but she ended up dead. So like how did that happen? Well, I mean like I did choke her but she was fine when I left she was still alive when I left so it's like Every time they come at him with something new He's got to like sort of continue meeting them halfway. He's got to walk a step forward And um to the point where yeah, he kind of did paint himself in a corner And finally, detectives were able to get him to admit that he had strangled Carla to death. I guess he didn't

like come right out and admit it. We're going to play you a small clip. But essentially, they're like, OK, so so you did it. And he's like, I didn't mean to do it. But yeah, I guess I did. You know, and and this was only after they promised him, you know, he wasn't going to get the death penalty. And they also sort of kind of talked about his wife a little bit, Judy. They were like, OK, so you've been with her for so long. She loves you so much. You're definitely best friends. Did you ever tell her anything like should we talk to her?

And I think he didn't want her being involved and he wanted to make sure he wasn't going to get the death penalty. And finally, he like sort of half-assed admitted to what he had done to Carla. But he also, which is implicating him, he also told police where to find the murder weapon, the Ruger pistol. Well, I guess it wasn't the murder weapon, right? It was the weapon that he used to beat up Rodney. But that's a big part of it because that magazine was left in the magazine was for the Ruger pistol, which he claimed to have been stolen, but it hadn't been stolen. He'd kept it all those years. He even brought it with him when they moved to a new house and he had it hidden in the ceiling of his house. So he was able to show police where that weapon was. So he's implicated himself a

bunch at this point. This case is a slam dunk. I didn't beat her up and all that kind of crap. How's that? Well, I'm guilty. Guilty of what? I guess. I'm not that little girl. You guilty of raping her and killing her? I'm not.

McCurley swore that he'd only ever taken a life once and that he had not been responsible for any of the other young women who had turned up strangled to death in Fort Worth at that time. But even though he confessed and even though he led police to the weapon, which had left behind evidence at the scene of Carla's abduction, Glenn McCurley pleaded not guilty to the charge of capital murder and his legal team got right to work filing multiple pretrial motions to suppress the DNA evidence as well as to suppress Glenn's confession to the police. Basically, Glenn's position was that the DNA evidence should not be allowed into trial because one, his DNA had initially been gathered from his garbage without find something, baggies, you know, instruments used to manufacture or distribute narcotics. They always try to suppress it. And I've never, knock on wood, I never had it thrown out. So why, if it's allowed, would they try to suppress it? I don't understand.

They're just like trying? Well, there's always, in my cases, I don't know here, but in my cases, it was like technicalities, right? Like we would have to testify that when I seized the trash can, it was on the sidewalk. A lot of the times they would say, oh, that trash can was still in the backyard. They pulled it out to the street and then threw it in the van. I didn't throw my trash out until the next morning. So there's no way they could have got it from the street because that is a big difference, right?

If you walk onto the property, even if it's a multifamily home, they have an expectation of privacy. Therefore you need a search warrant. But if that trash can crosses that threshold where it becomes, it's on the sidewalk, which is public property. Now it's considered an abandoned property. So it wasn't so much the contention in my cases where they would say, you can't pull it from the trash can. And it's like a constitutional thing where they're trying to basically say that that's not, that's not legal. It was more so the, how it was obtained, where it was low, where was it taken from? And basically trying to question our authenticity as far as our, if we're telling the truth though, did we actually get it from the sidewalk or did we go back there and put it on the sidewalk first? That's why after those cases, we started taking photos and video. Yeah. I mean,

that's a, that's a good idea. I don't see how they can prove that you did that, but they can raise doubt. Of course. Of course. And then it comes into question where they look at your previous narcotics cases that you've done. You know, has that ever come up? And is there a pattern there?

So we just avoided it altogether. We would have someone in the back videotape. We were usually in a van. As you pull up. Yep. You pull up, you get out, run up to the sidewalk, grab it, get in the car and you're gone. I mean, they could still say like, oh, they pulled it down there and then they like fabricated this.

And they do. Yeah. And they do. I promise you. Well, I mean, you got to try. You got to try. Miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Yep. Yeah. No, I mean, that's what this is. Even him pleading not guilty. That's a formality. That's like if you go in there and say you're guilty, there's no trial. You go in there, you plead not guilty at the initial arraignment, and then you allow lawyers

to try to get everything thrown out that they can because they're just trying to weaken the case. They're trying to chip away at what they have and then go from there. It's just annoying to me, though, that somebody like Glenn McCurley could legitimately have his confession. He's a grown man. OK, he's a grown ass man. He could have his confession on tape. He could lead police to the weapon. All right. His DNA is on the victim and he can still plead not guilty and waste everybody's time like ludicrous. I know it's our justice system. I know it's supposed to be fair. I get it. I get it. It's ludicrous. I get it. I hate it, but I get it. Everyone's entitled to a trial and it does,

it costs a lot of money, a lot of resources, but the reality is there's a lot of people that are found guilty of a crime they didn't commit. We know that very well. And some have given confessions as we also know very well. So if we didn't have that history, it would seem more of a waste. But because we have data to support the idea that there are people who on the surface seem guilty, come to find out they're not. I think that's the mentality that these defense attorneys go into this with is that, hey, listen, unless my client's admitting to me that they did it, I'm going to defend them as if they didn't. Yeah, but check this out. Then you have things on the other hand, where you have these like district attorney's offices who like they're located in poor towns or, you know, poor areas,

poor counties. And they'll literally have somebody who they have like a very good case against. But then this person and their legal team plead not guilty and they have to bring it to trial. And they just don't have the money to bring it to trial to hire these experts and to do all of this. So they end up cutting this person a deal because they just can't afford to take it to trial. Like that shouldn't happen either. Yeah, it's we talked about this at length is the system needs to get better. It's not perfect. That's for sure well glenn also was like oh this dna evidence

shouldn't be allowed into trial because author on the lab he said they weren't accredited by the texas commission of forensic sciences and three one of the serological institute lab employees who had handled his sample had not been licensed by tcfs which is the texas commission of forensic sciences basically it just it didn't work out it didn't matter what he said mccurley also said his been licensed by TCFS, which is the Texas Commission of Forensic Sciences. Basically, it just, it didn't work out. It didn't matter what he said. McCurley also said his statement to the police had only been given when he heard that he was not going to get the death penalty. So for him, this was a reason of why his confession should have been withheld. It was all obviously just, you know, hoping for a Hail Mary, throwing stuff at the wall and seeing if

anything would stick. And none of it did stick. All of these motions were denied and the trial began. But two days into the trial, McCurley told his legal team that he wanted to change his plea to guilty, which was allowed. And then he immediately was sentenced to life in prison. So, you know, I don't want to say credit where credit's due, but yeah, credit where credit is due. There is a semblance of respect from me that this dude was finally like, all right, what am I doing here? And like, they've got everything against me. I'm not going to win in this trial. And honestly, like, I'm just going to plead guilty. I'm just going to save everybody the time, the trouble, the pain of having to relive this. Mostly he was trying to

save his son and his wife from the pain of having to go through this trial and hear what he had done. But either way, he's trying to save somebody pain. So there's something in him that is human, at least. I would even go as far as saying, piggybacking off what we just talked about. He gave a confession. He gave him the we just talked about. He gave a confession. He gave him the murder. He gave him the weapon that was used. He gave him everything. And then he gets to his defense team,

which might've been a public defender, who knows who, whatever it was. And they say, whoa, you shouldn't have done that. And yeah, that's fine.

But let's go through the, there may be things here that help you. You, we could submit this stuff and you might go home. If this, if this gets approved by the judge and it gets thrown out, you're a free man. So he was probably like, eh, okay, we'll go for it, I guess. But as soon as those things were denied, he's like, listen, I already told you.

I don't want to do this. I'm changing my plea. That's it. Yeah. And I mean, they did what I call the Joseph D'Angelo defense where they brought him in. He was in a wheelchair because he's in his late 70s, almost they like brought him in. He was in a wheelchair, you know, because he's like his late 70s, almost 80s at this point. He's in a wheelchair. He's all like frail looking. He's just sitting there like, I'm just a little old man. I couldn't hurt

anybody, you know, and like we still with the Golden State Killer, Joseph D'Angelo in court, he looks like, you know, he's on the verge of death. But then there's videos of him in his cell doing pull ups and shit. So obviously, dude was not in that bad of a position. And Glenn McCurley, they tried the same thing. They were like, he's got cancer. He's dying. What are you going to do to him? Put him in prison? Yep. Put him in prison. Yes, because he had 50 years free that he shouldn't have had. But yeah, they tried that too. And nothing really worked because I think at this point, like you said, he kind of had implicated himself to the point where there was no real path forward. And during the trial, Carla's brother, Jim, and Glenn McCurley's son, Roddy, they consoled each other.

They hugged. I remember reading an article where the reporter said that Roddy was crying on Jim's shoulder, because obviously Roddy is significantly younger than Jim. And they tried to comprehend this twisted way that the universe had allowed their paths to cross. Jim and Roddy had been in touch for a few weeks by the time of the trial. And during his victim impact statement, Jim told Glenn McCurley that he hadn't just destroyed the Walker family, but his own family as well. Speaking about Roddy McCurley, Jim Walker said, quote, his world is shattered. My heart goes out to him, end quote. And it turned out that Roddy's brother, Craig, remember Glenn McCurley's other son who had died in a car accident.

Craig had been buried in the same cemetery as Carla, just a 30 second walk between grave sites. And Jim wondered if maybe Glenn McCurley had been responsible for the flowers that Jim would sometimes find on Carla's headstone. Carla's sister Cindy also addressed Glenn McCurley after he'd been sentenced, saying, quote, I wish you had done this a long time ago. You had choices, lots of choices that night. You went out and killed somebody. You had your gun, you had your alcohol, you had your whiskey, and you're still not telling the truth about everything you did. I want to know if you've done this to anybody else. You need to bring that out because these families need to old. All right. You're probably going to die long before, you know, anybody remembers your name. So what do you have to lose at this point? Like give these other families closure. But Glenn McCurley can continue to insist that way and not have done it again before or after. But I mean, I suppose I do think that I hate to say this. I do think that Glenn McCurley had some remorse when you see him in his confession video. He seems truly like beat up about it.

Not that it's making me have compassion for him, not that it makes me feel bad for him. I don't feel bad. I'm just saying, like, I have seen a lot of these cases where the killers even so many years later they don't care they don't have remorse they're not sorry about it and they will do anything that they can to continue like making everybody go through the gigs over and over until they've exhausted their appeals and they've done everything possible and even when they are like sentenced to death they're like still appealing up until the moment that that they're sitting there on on the table about to get lethal injection. Like they will just continue wasting everybody's time and continue refusing to just fade into obscurity. So I do think that he probably didn't mean to kill her, but he did.

So it doesn't really matter one way or the other. But I do have some respect for him eventually like confessing to it. And, um, and it doesn't look like he did anything like that after it looks like he lived a pretty boring life. To echo what you said, no, I have no compassion for him. Scumbag. He lived, he, he got off easy. He got off easy. Uh, but I will say it's absolutely possible. We've seen it before. We'll see it again where someone commits an act like this that they're, you know, the fact that they're even capable of it makes them a monster, even if it's only once. I agree. it again. It's just like someone who robs a bank in the moment they do it one time doesn't mean they have to keep robbing banks. Now there are cases where you have habitual offenders or you have in this case, like a serial killer who just has to continuously do it. But there are sick

individuals who do it one time and then fade into obscurity and hope they just never are caught for that one offense. And he could be one of those people that, and he wouldn't be the only one. And I almost wonder, I did wonder as I was going through this, when Glenn lost his own son to that drunk driver, I wonder if he thought in a way, because he did seem to like find religion and find God after. I wonder if he thought like, this is my karma. This is my punishment. I took somebody's child from them and now somebody else took my child from me. So this is like what I deserve, you know, and I'm not saying I agree with that, that sentiment, because I don't feel like,

you know, Glenn's son should have had to have been like the sacrifice to make things even for the Walker family. But I do imagine that that most likely, I can't imagine that it didn't go through his head, right? If you'd known that you'd taken somebody's life and you'd taken somebody's child from them, and then your child gets taken from you in a horrible, violent way, I can't imagine that you wouldn't make some kind of comparison in your head and wonder if the two things were related. Honolulu Strangler. It was a serial killer case, multiple deaths. And we started to see a pattern when we were out in Hawaii regarding this person. They were committing these crimes, very similar, and they were pretty regular. I think it was like five that we had possibly tied to him. And we believe to this day that we have identified who it was, this guy, he's deceased now, Howard Gay. But there was a point during these incidences where all of a sudden it just stopped. It just

stopped out of nowhere. No reason at all. Just stopped committing these crimes when it was happening pretty regularly. It was in the newspapers. They had the van identified. It was a big thing on the island. We thought it could be a couple of things. It could be that this person went to prison, the person died or something else. Well, what we found later is that Howard Gay's son was on the side of the road in California changing a tire and he was struck and killed. And it was immediately after that son's death that the killing stopped.

So we think there was something there tied to it where that was his karma, right? And he died old after that. And from what we could tell, never committed a crime like that again, never killed anybody else. And we do think that was the reason why. It's a very plausible scenario.

Yeah, I mean, it's either he's thinking this is my punishment or my karma, or he's like, I understand what it's like to lose somebody that you love and I don't want to be responsible for doing that to other people. Although, how many people do you believe he murdered? Howard, at least five, probably more. It's hard to think that somebody who was able to take that many lives could could feel that empathy. You know what I mean?

It's hard to feel like if you if you didn't already feel it for the people you were killing, why would you feel it for their parents? You know, I don't know. It's true. Yeah. I mean, it's just it's a weird thing the way the mind works. Right. Like we can't we can't understand why they do it in the people you were killing? Why would you feel it for their parents? I don't know. It's true. Yeah. I mean, it's a weird thing the way the mind works, right? We can't understand why they do it in the first place. So what is motivating them? What are their beliefs? What are their values in their head, even if we don't agree with them, where there's something that happens to them that impacts them that you wouldn't expect for someone who's as cold and as

heartless as this person would have to be to commit these acts in the first place. But you usually have a religious component to it as well. You know, it's as scary as it is. These killers, these absolute sick individuals could do whatever they want, but they justified in a way where even it still supports their religion. It's the weirdest thing ever, but that's how they can sometimes justify it where they feel like they're doing god's work So it's one of those situations where although it might not make sense to 99.9 of the population They have found a way to justify it in their own head and that's all you really need You know, I I just kind of looked something up because I wanted to find something out and what I did find out was Freaking glenn mccurley. He He appealed his murder conviction.

So I take it back. I take everything I said about him back. Go away, Glenn. You got away with it for that long. Count your blessings and just do us all a favor. Is he dead? No, it doesn't look like it, man. Just do us all a favor, Glenn. It looks like, oh my God, this is so annoying.

It looks like he appealed his sentence in 2022, his murder conviction in 2022. So yeah, I take it back. I don't have any respect for you. I hope you rot in prison and then I hope you rot in hell. And, yeah, I have no mercy for you, Glenn. Just go away, Glenn. Go away.

That's what I'm saying. These guys, you got to wait with it. Give him his Ruger back, put him in a cell leave him you got you got away with it for so long like you should be counting your blessings that you were able to get away with it for that long and you were able to live a full life and watch like one of your sons grow up and and go to walmart every freaking week with your wife okay before you were thrown in prison now you need to respectfully fade to black. All right, goodbye. Yeah. End scene. But yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, the DA on the case, Prosecutor Kim DeAvion, said that she felt it was a testament to both the

Walker and the McCurley families that they were able to come together and sort of comfort each other in this time instead of turn on each other. She said, quote, if we could find one takeaway for the whole world on this case, it would be that Jim Walker and Cindy Stone, Cindy is Carla's sister, have nothing but love for the son of the man who killed their sister. Sometimes you see beautiful things in the courthouse, and that might be one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen, end quote. And I do like to end on that note because there is some positivity there. You will often see, I mean, honestly, I couldn't tell you that I would be that welcoming to the family member of somebody who had murdered my child, not because I would blame them, just because there's this interest in being detached and protective of yourself and your

heart and your soul. And I just don't know if I could get close to somebody who shared the same DNA. I don't know if I could trust somebody like that, but that's an illogical way to think, right? Because that person didn't do anything. Roddy didn't do anything. Judy didn't do anything. They were victims. They lived with this man for this long and didn't know who they were living with. Judy didn't know who was sleeping in her bed. She didn't know that the same hands that touched her so lovingly had also choked the life out of a 17-year-old innocent girl. She had no idea. And you have to live with that now. You have to live with that after. And I'm sure that brings along with it a level of guilt that Judy

and Roddy did not deserve. So yeah, I mean, it's very difficult. But to be able to put all of that aside and comfort these people and understand that, you know, they're humans who are also going through something is lovely. And I'm, you know, I'm happy to see it. I agree. It's a bittersweet ending, but at least there's some type of resolution here. Many families do not even get that. So happy for them in that sense, but it's obviously doesn't bring Carla back, but at least her brother's here and I'm sure her family is watching down on all of this and there's some peace there as well. And they're obviously, depending on what you believe in, they're already with Carla. So, you know, that's, they're in a better place now for it. Quickly, this is the end of this case. New case starting next week. I believe according to our conversations, it might

be just one episode, but we're going to see how that goes. And so as always, we appreciate you guys joining us. Stay safe out there. Don't do anything we wouldn't do. And let us know what you guys think about this case. Obviously the outcome with it. What do you think about the way DNA is going as far as technology? There's some things that are going on. It's still a very new technology, but obviously it has a lot of positives to it where it could really potentially solve a lot of cases. But there it has a lot of positives to it where it could really potentially solve a lot of cases. But there's also some things we have to worry about. One of those things being how the DNA is being obtained, right? That could become a very slippery slope,

a gray area. So weigh in down below, let us know what you think. Do the pros outweigh the cons? Are there some things that you would like to see changed as we advance our abilities to identify DNA from 30, 40 years ago. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on that one. Anything from you? You know what kind of creeps me out? What's that? You know how they can take like a small amount of DNA and like replicate it now? Yep. That kind of creeps me out. It's like cloning. It's like cloning your DNA. And then what do they do when they have all of your DNA? You know, they could do anything with it. That's creepy.

Well, I think that's the side of the aisle where if you have people who are against it, that's what they're saying. Like, well, okay, if they're able to replicate your DNA, well, if they believe you're the person like so far, hypothetically. They could like frame you. Now you can throw my DNA on a bra from 30 years ago. Because you have so much of it. Right.

And how do you know, is there a way of telling how old that DNA is, right? Like when it was placed there. So those are the ethical issues you run into because the reality is you do have some detectives out there that are overzealous and think they got the right guy and they believe the means justifies the end. So they'll do- They might do some shit like that. Yeah. They need to do what they need to. And that's why you have to have these separate agencies. So it's not just one stop shop where you have multiple people who are not directly involved with the case like an author. That's why I love if these other entities are certified or being monitored to some degree are involved with the process because they're objective.

They're not even necessarily knowing the specifics. But for some degree, they can be unbiased and they're going to tell you the results because they don't have any skin in the game you know so that's that's what like it's weird man you know it's like technology is progressing to a point where we may lose control over it like it's going to go from being helpful to being hurtful way down down below. What do you guys think? Are we going in the right direction? Let us know. I don't think so. Okay.

Don't let Stephanie influence you. Just say what you think. Doesn't feel good. Doesn't feel good. Everyone, stay safe out there. We will see you next week. Bye.