Crime Weekly - S3 Ep130: The Daybell Doomsday Cult Murders: Light and Dark Spirits (Part 4)

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

JJ Vallow didn’t have the best start in life. Both of his parents struggled with drug addiction, and so when he was born premature in May of 2012, JJ was also addicted to drugs and it took months for doctors to safely wean him off the substances that had been coursing through his little body. But shortly before his first birthday, JJ was adopted by his uncle, Charles Vallow, and Charles’ pretty young wife, Lori Vallow, who had two children of her own, a son named Colby and a daughter named Tylee. Tylee and JJ hit it off immediately, and Tylee became a best friend and mini mother to her younger half brother. It seemed like JJ and Tylee were a part of one big happy family, so when they both vanished in September of 2019, and their normally attentive and loving mother Lori didn’t seem overly concerned about the fact that two of her children were missing, people started asking questions. But no one could have prepared for the answers we would get. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. Babbel Start your new language learning journey today and get up to 55% off at BABBEL.com/CRIMEWEEKLY. 2. PrettyLitter Go to PrettyLitter.com/crimeweekly and use code crimeweekly to save twenty percent on your FIRST order. 3. PayPal Honey Get PayPal Honey for FREE at JoinHoney.com/crimeweekly 4. ZocDoc Go to Zocdoc.com/CRIMEWEEKLY and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours 5. Vessi Head to vessi.com/CRIMEWEEKLY and get yourself a pair today.  

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this Father's Day at Lowe's. We help, you save. Valid through 615. While supplies last, selection varies by location. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek LeBasser. So today we are continuing on with the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell saga. And this is going to be a little bit of a soap opera episode. But before we dive in, any housecleaning, anything you want to talk about? Why don't you talk? I mentioned it on Crime Weekly News on Wednesday, but might as well bring it up now, right, CrimeCon? You want me to talk about it? Yeah, you know, you don't do enough talking

in these episodes. That's absolutely not true. It's called sarcasm, Stephanie. I thought you would want to save my voice for the episode, but sure. I don't give a shit about your voice. So we are going to be at CrimeCon. Crime Weekly is going to be at CrimeCon this September in Orlando. Tickets are on sale now. And if you use code CrimeWeekly, all one word, you'll get 15% off. Am I right? 10%. Close though. Shit. Are you sure you didn't say 15? Nope. Never have. Never, never even mentioned 15, but it'd be great if it was 15 though, wouldn't it? Yeah, that would be great. I know a lot of people have already bought their tickets because we got our code late, but if you haven't yet and you want to go and you want to meet us and you want

to hang out and you want to have like a fun meet and greet and, you know, get some drinks and party in Orlando, home of Casey Anthony. Maybe we'll see her. Maybe she'll come to a crime con, dude. I doubt it, but that'd be crazy. I feel like it would be the worst place she could ever go. It would be like a rabbit hopping into like a den of 10,000 foxes. Yeah. You know, it would be-

She ain't coming. Be a bad idea. Maybe she'll come in like disguise. Maybe we'll invite her. We'll say, hey, listen, we're going to do an event there, like a speaking engagement. We want you to be our guest. We're going to put you on a polygraph machine. Oh, dude.

We would sell out. That's an idea right there. Yeah, never happened. Because we already wanted to do the polygraph thing. I'm going to reach out. You do that. I'm just going to see, because she loves attention. If there's one thing we know about Casey Anthony is that she loves attention

and she can't stand to think that she's been forgotten. So I'm going to reach out. I mean, you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take. Michael Jordan, said it best. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it'll be fun. And I said on Crime Weekly News, if you, in previous years, you use the code, then you get like an invite for our like special meetup. I don't think we're going to do that this year. We're going to have a meetup. We're going to all hang out for the people that are coming there specifically to see us. We're going to hang out. We're going to see you guys. We're going to be out at night and it'll be at a restaurant or a bar, but you don't necessarily need to have

purchased a ticket with our code. Obviously we would love it, but it gives us a better indicator of how many people are coming specifically for us as well. But if you've already purchased a ticket, I know some of you have already emailed me like, Hey, what do I do? I want to see you. Don't sweat it. Don't worry about it. We'll put something out either in the last episode before we go to CrimeCon or on social media where we'll say, Hey, we're going to be at this place at this time. Stop by if you want. Nothing crazy. So you should follow us on Instagram.

Right. Crime Weekly Pod. How can they, Crime Weekly Pod. That's right. Right there. Crime Weekly Pod. You can follow us there, but I'm sure we'll put it on our socials as well.

And it's not going to be difficult to find us. Put it that way. And we're at Podcast Row. If you haven't been to Crime Con before, it's a great event, but we're on Podcast Row. I think last year we did like a meet and greet at like you know like where people could come like through a line and meet us for something and then we also did like a vip meet and greet but those are for like a different ticket that

we we don't have any say in it's just you buy a certain ticket level and you get like a private meet and greet with us, but that's through CrimeCon. So you don't, if you want to do that, great, but you don't have to, you know, you're going to meet us regardless. So I would say- Yeah, we're going to be around, walking around,

you know, having a good time. Exactly. You'll see us. Save the money, grab a good dinner and some drinks. You can't miss Derek, man. He's tall and loud. Tall, dark, and handsome, I was going to say, but you he's tall and loud tall dark and handsome I was gonna say but you know tall and loud works too I guess and then you'll have Stephanie she'll be

she'll be short quiet and probably rubbing one of the you know cloth you know walls or something like something that she that has like a texture to it she'll just be in the corner and if you go up to me like hey Stephanie she'll just turn around like a scared child that she did something wrong. Like, hey, what? What did I do? Because that's, you know, she'll probably be high on something. I'll be under the table again. Which is, again, an actual fact. You are under the table during the meeting. So, yeah. I have social anxiety, man. People meet me and they think I'm like outgoing because I'm sitting in front of a camera and like, oh, she's outgoing. Yeah. After a couple of drinks. But in reality, I have huge social anxiety.

And yeah, I get burned out very quickly and overstimulated very quickly. So I'm going to do my best. I think I've maintained, except for, what was it? Were we in Vegas? Yeah. That meet and greet? Yeah, you were a mess. I was a mess.

I was like, oh yeah, Stephanie's right behind me. Like, no, she's not. And then I like see your feet from underneath the table. No, remember when we went to the meet and greet though, like the bar? I was like, because people kept buying me dirty martinis. And I think like I hadn't eaten all day. Oh, the separate one. Yeah, I think three dirty martinis in, I didn't even know where I was.

Yeah. But we had fun. The sagas that we go through. No, anyways, we'll see you there for that. That's all we have. So check it out. Hopefully you come. It's going to be a few months, but I wouldn't wait too long because those tickets do go, especially like the general admission tickets. I think they probably sell out every year, right? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So hopefully we see you there.

All right. Let's dive in. We're going to pick up where we left off. It was the last weekend of October 2018. And Lori Vallow, along with her new best friend, Melanie Gibb, were driving to St. George, Utah for a Preparing a People conference. Kind of like a crime con, including Chad Daybell. And on Friday, the first day of the conference, after Chad had left the stage, he came face-to-face with Lori for the first time. According to Melanie Gibb, after Chad spoke on Friday, October 26th, he walked off the stage and he started meeting fans and signing books. And Lori walked right up to him and introduced herself. She told Chad that she had read all of his books. And he told her that through his spiritual gifts, it had been revealed to him that Lori was a translated being. And she and Chad had been married seven times in their past lives. Can you imagine you meet somebody for the first time and you're like, hey, I'm Lori. I read all your books. And he's like, hey, Lori, God's already told me we've been married seven times in our past lives. How many times do you think he's used that line?

I think he's used that line quite a bit because remember Julie Rowe? She's one of his authors. Yeah, they're saying he's away with women. Yeah. She said, well, she claimed afterwards because when the kids first went missing, Julie Rowe came out in defense of Chad and she was in defense of Chad for quite a bit. But then later, once she saw the tide turning and she realized like, oh, shit, it doesn't look good for our boy, Chad. She always knew. Yeah.

She was like, I knew there was something wrong with him. She said like, oh, he told her the same thing that they'd been married in a past life, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, maybe I guess. Yeah. Maybe I guess. I guess it is. If you're a cult leader, that is probably the line to use. Now, a translated being. From what I can tell in the Mormon religion, a translated being means that it's like as if Jesus has already returned to earth. And so Lori's spiritually where she would be if he had. And basically,

she's ready to walk by his side. She doesn't need to go through all this work to be made perfect. She's already perfect. So I guess that's a good pickup line too, right? Telling a woman that you meet for the first time, you're literally a perfect being. And Chad telling Lori that she was a translated being meant she was a heavenly being. She didn't have to go through the process of becoming ready to stand at God's side. She was already perfect, and she really loved that. So for the rest of the conference, Lori and Chad were inseparable. Some might say it's love at first sight.

Some might say it's two broken and mentally ill people who sort of began sharing a delusion, an insanity. And Melanie Gibbs said that Lori and Chad openly and excitedly spoke about things that were not learned in church and would normally be discussed in private. To get an indication of what those things were that they talked about, let's look at a story that Chad would write the following July where he recalled meeting Lori for the first time. Now, in this story, he refers to himself as James and he calls Lori Elena. Now, these are the same names that the secret couple would use for each other in future texts. And apparently in a past life, Chad was James and Lori was Elena and they were married and they had like seven kids so this is why they continue using these names for each other your face i just you know to break the fourth wall here for a second i always want to be engaged on these things and sometimes you

guys accuse me of kind of disconnecting and derrick looks over it you'll say or whatever but you guys know me pretty well by now. We've been doing this. I was wrong. We've been doing this for over two years, almost two years now, a little over two years. And I'm a more pragmatic person. Like I'm just the way I'm built. You're practical. I'm practical.

Yeah. Right. And it's like. Simple guy. This stuff is hard for me to look at you guys at the camera and be like, wow, fascinating stuff. But I do know that. It's not fascinating. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And you love it. I love it. Absolutely love it. It brings you joy. It's what gives you life. And that's why you're good at this, because this is something you can tell

with enthusiasm. And it's a real authentic enthusiasm where I'm just sitting here just trying to get through it. But there's moments where I say to myself, as you're talking about these previous lives and their marriages and their seven kids where I'm like, what's going on here? What's going on? I find it so interesting because it stems back to like psychology, right? Like human behavior. I can sum it up for you. They're nuts. I mean, done. Psychology done. There's this thing. Diagnosis delivered. There's this thing called limerence. I don't know if anybody's familiar with it, but I'm sure some people are. And it's basically like you become infatuated with somebody. And it's not just a crush, but it's like an infatuation. They are all you can think about. People go into

limerence and they will literally destroy their lives to be with this other person. This is a real thing that people suffer from every day. If you go on YouTube and look it up, people are telling their stories. If you fall into limerence with somebody, you will literally create a relationship in your head with them. You will leave your current spouse that you have a family and a life with. You will throw everything away. You will lose everyone and everything that matters to you to be with this person. It is damaging to a lot of people. And it comes from certain attachment styles and things. But if you look at it this way and you think, what happens if two people who fall into this limerent love with each other meet? And I think that's what we're seeing here with Chad and Lori, honestly.

That is the only explanation that I can think of because these two people literally said, fuck everything else. The world around us can burn as long as we're together. It's going to be okay. And I've never seen anything so, like, I don't know, blatant. I am. I'm along for the ride with you. I'm always here for you. All right. So listen, Chad wrote that James, a.k.a. Chad, had been driving south on the freeway on the morning of Friday, October 26th, when a voice suddenly told him that he would meet an extraordinary woman that day who would change his life forever. Now, Chad wrote in his book, this was shocking since it seemed very unlikely that something like that would happen at this conference. Chad wrote about arriving at the conference in St. George

and seeing a woman he already knew, who would be Melanie Gibb, and this woman introduced him to Elena. Quote, When their hands touched, he felt a shock pass through him, and his heart started beating fast. Elena was gorgeous and vivacious, and James was a little intimidated, yet honored that she would talk to him. He was happily surprised when she mentioned a key part of his novel, The Renewed Earth. No one had ever

realized the significance of that scene before. Had he heard that voice before? Had he seen that smile before? He felt they had even talked like this before, but who could be certain when? But he could remember the feelings were strong, as if they had known each other. And I think this is important. Like, it's not just ludicrous. It's like gives some indication into the internal world of Chad Daybell. He says, like, she's gorgeous and vivacious and he's intimidated and honored that she would talk to him. So he's already putting her above himself. He's surprised that she would talk to him. So he's already putting her above himself. He's surprised that she would even find him attractive.

You know, this is a woman who he's like, oh my God, she's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And she wants to talk to me. And that shows you where Chad's self-esteem and self-image was at that point. And I think shows you a little bit of, once again, who would end up driving this ship. Because although I do think Chad put some crazy bananas ideas into Lori's head, she chose to run with them. And in the end, I really don't think he would have done some of the stuff that he's even saying, again, they first meet. Now we can go back to what you said, episodes two, three, as far as Lori kind of making this interaction, this meetup happen.

This wasn't by chance, right? She had been manifesting this for a long time. She had a target set. She manipulated it into happening. It was Chad Daybell. This wasn't just a coincidence that they met at this event. This was planned. But the fact that Chad responds with his words to her like, oh, don't worry.

We've already met. We've already been married and had seven kids. You know, like that's his response, which it's like, who's going to up who here? Who's going to be more crazy? Now, he doesn't know that she's not just some other woman who he's trying to get in bed with from one of his speaking engagements. This woman had, it's chess, not checkers for her. She's got one up on him. He doesn't know it yet. Exactly. But I do wonder, based on some of the things he's saying, how he's using this religion to

manipulate all people, not only just women, that I feel like this was just a sign of things to come as far as how his mind works. He was able to justify his actions through this belief of what he had. They both were, yeah. They both were. And I feel like we'll never know. But I do wonder, I mean, you think about his wife.

His wife, to refresh my memory, was killed after he met Lori or before? Okay. So if we're going off what you believe, you believe that he killed his wife because of Lori, like Lori driving the ship, wanting them to be together. I feel he killed his wife because he wanted to be with Lori. And you don't think he ever would have done that for any other woman? I can't say that for sure, no. But I don't think that any other woman would have shown him the,

I mean, it's Chad Daybell. He's like, I'm sorry, like he's no prize, okay? So I don't see a vivacious, gorgeous woman like Lori Vallow, who's got all this charisma and all of these things to offer, right? Approaching Chad Daybell and being like, oh my God, you are the love of my life. We've been together through lifetimes and through eternities. And I give myself to you now in this life.

I don't think any other normal woman would be interested in Chad Daybell to that extent. Nobody would be. And I don't think that he would really like buy into that from just some typical woman. They had to be a narcissist and manipulative like Lori and kind of what you said. She manipulated the situation. She set it up and he kind of thinks it's like fate. God planned this, but she moved all the pieces to make sure she was there in that place in that time. And she'd done her research and she already knew everything about him.

He knew nothing about her. There's like this excitement and this mystery there. Who's this beautiful, mysterious, vivacious woman who somehow wants to be around me? She knows everything about him. She's got the upper hand, especially in the beginning when they're meeting. He's cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. So he's going to attribute everything that happens to fate and God and his religion. But she's a little bit more like, you know, practical like you.

And she knows what's up, you know. Yeah, I don't know. I just I feel like this guy was off his rocker and he was looking for his, you know, he was he was looking for his partner in crime. And she was looking for her partner. She was looking for her partner in crime. She was looking for her partner in crime as well. But I do wonder, and again, we'll never know, was the things that Chad eventually did or was involved in a result of his relationship with Lori? Would he have done it if it had been anybody else? Yeah, were they going to happen regardless? Yeah.

Yeah, we'll never know. It doesn't make it any better, by the way. Absolutely not, but it is an interesting question. Yeah. So Chad wrote that he, I mean, James didn't get to talk to Elena much that day, but he could not get her out of his head. And when he spoke at the conference the next day, he knew exactly where she was sitting and he knew that she was watching him attentively. She couldn't take his her eyes off of him. Elena was so beautiful that James could not concentrate, and after he left the stage, Elena spent the rest of the day with him, helping him sell his books. Chad wrote,

quote, he could only giggle when people asked if she was his wife. In fact, she was. She just didn't know it yet. Her eyes had mesmerized him since they had met. Once the book sales slowed down, she stood near him behind the table. They looked deeply into each other's eyes for the first time, and he knew he was in the presence of a goddess. He resisted the impulse to kiss her, but his entire body was on fire. End quote. It's going to be funny, but later we're going to talk about how Chad and Lori referred to his penis as the storm. You love this stuff way too much. So it's a stranger than fiction thing.

Like people really behave like this. Okay. Okay. So Chad wrote that James and Elena were deeply in love from that moment. And he had visions that they'd been together in past lifetimes and that they were eternal companions. Quote, he had glimpses of them walking dusty paths together and he realized they had been married during the life of Jesus Christ

and they'd been very close to him. At this time, their spirits could not be restrained any longer and a long awaited makeout session took place in that lobby. This was the manifest in the mortal world to James and Elena through scientific phenomenon known as the loin fire. The erotic tension continued throughout the afternoon. James could only think of her. This desire for her was

indescribable. Thankfully, she had worn 16 layers of clothing to survive the 80 degree weather, so he was not fully aware that she really had the body of a goddess. Her dimensions were exactly what he always fantasized about. But that revelation would have to wait a month, end quote. So basically, we got to see as he keeps talking, this is less about God and more about your horny dude, right? That's what I was going to say. I mean, this has nothing to do with religion. Again, he's using the religion as the excuse. Yes.

Which is what I feel might be the case for other things with his ex-wife, with the children. I feel like he has an impulse as a shitty human being. And then he reverse engineers how this is warranted or justified through his religion. This is the first day they met, by the way. Again, to remind people, this is the first day we met. The first weekend, at least. Yeah. Pretty crazy. Yeah. I mean, or if you're Chad and Lori, you might be like, this is love at first sight.

This is fated. This was meant to be kismet. Whatever. I feel like during one episode of Crime Weekly, you were like, oh, don't you believe in love at first sight? And I was like, absolutely not. And you were like, oh, come on. Like, it happens.

Like, why are we? But it's like you just said, this isn't love at first sight. This is just a purely a sexual chemistry. They want to bang. There isn't love at first sight this is just a purely a sexual chemistry they want there's never love at first sight it's always just sexual chemistry well i think sexual chemistry can be love at first sight right it's like a physical attraction at first it's like it's like your dream person no it's like physical chemistry at first sight love is something that takes time and these people are crazy whatever these people are crazy they're nuts okay so chad and laurie exchanged numbers on the last day of the conference and then they returned to their respective spouses and homes laurie went back to arizona chad went to idaho

but they were not going to be out of contact for long because they texted all that night and from that point on they continued to text nonstop, getting to know each other, discussing their experiences, expressing their love and desire for each other, and talking about how people in their lives, who they called telestial relatives, were dark souls or zombies possessed by evil spirits who needed to be removed from the picture as part of the shared mission of Chad and Lori, eternal lovers and warriors for Jesus Christ himself. Let's take a break. Let's take a break on that note. All right, we're back. So before Lori and Chad reluctantly parted ways in St. George, Lori had asked Chad to determine who in her life was a dark spirit. And so when Chad got back home to Rexburg, he used his owl necklace to create a report on Lori's

family members, a report that would tell Lori who in her family, living and dead, had a dark spirit and who had a light spirit. So according to Chad's belief system, when people die, they're reborn or they graduate to the next level. And Chad felt with his gifts and his ripped and torn veil and all that, he was able to read people's spirits. He didn't even have to be in their physical presence. He didn't even have to have ever met them. He could tell whether they were a light or dark spirit. And so Chad sent Lori an email on October 30th, 2018. Now remember, the conference is on the 26th. That's the Friday. The 27th was Saturday.

The 28th was Sunday. The conference is over. They go back. By October 30th, dude's got an email sending out to Lori about dark and light spirits. So he's obviously thinking about her. And in this email, he claimed that most LDS members are a level two. Most bishops and wards were a level three. And Chad said that level twos and level threes were the most fluid and they could change sides from light to dark or dark to light during their earth life.

So if you were a dark spirit, it was because you made a pact or a covenant with the devil. And if you were a light spirit, it's because you made a pact or a covenant with God or Jesus or whatever. So you can, if you're a two or a three, fluidly change sides from light to dark. However, most stake presidents and general authorities were a level four. Most apostles were a level five, but a few of them were a level six. And Chad said that anyone rated at a 4.1 and above had already made a covenant to their side and they would rarely be known to switch sides. However, also the dark side can only match the light side. So the number of dark souls on earth could not exceed the number of light souls on earth. And that's why there's so few light spirit level fives and sixes on earth at any given time because this helped to limit the power

of the dark side so quick question for you and i i know it's a very deep conversation and we've talked about it off record as far as your your coverage or your research of it but i feel like from what i've learned about scientology there's some similarities there am i wrong dude i agree okay so just as far as like- I don't even want to say that word though. Yeah, I know. I know. It's a deeper thing, but I feel like there's some similarities as far as how they view

these things in different levels you can be at. So anyways, that was it. We don't have to make- Like OT level. We don't have to go off the track, but I feel like- And the whole like sci-fi kind of realm of like different planets. Yeah, I completely agree. I do see similarities.

And again, surface level. I'm sure once you go under that, there's a lot of differences, but I just feel like at the surface. Honestly, you know. I'm not going to get you trapped up here. They didn't get like as sort of like advanced as Scientology, right?

They weren't allowed to like build on this for a while, but if they had, I'm sure they would have had like centers and weird, you know, truth telling devices where you hold like soup cans and get audited and stuff like that's where they were going, in my opinion. Okay. They don't have Tom Cruise, though. So. They don't have that guy. They don't. And that is a help. It's a big help. So let's talk about what Chad rated Lori's family members. He rated both of Lori's parents as three L's, so three lights. He said that Lori's late sister, Stacy, had been

a three L on earth, but she had graduated to a 4.1 L in the afterlife. And Lori's other sister, Laura, remember the one who had died very young? She was also a 3L on Earth and a 4.1L in the afterlife. Lori's brother, Alex Cox, was a 2L. I find this very interesting, by the way. We're going to talk about that in a second. But Alex Cox, according to Chad, was a 2L. Lori's other brother, Adam, was a 3L. Lori's living sister, Summer, was rated a 3L, but her husband was a 2L, borderline 2D. What we're going to find here is Chad seems to rate the male spouses as problematic often. He did this with Summer. He did this with Lori. He did this with Lori's niece, Melanie Bordeaux. You'll find that like Lori's little cult group. So kind of the way Melanie Gibb described it is Chad would teach Lori these concepts and

then Lori would come back to like her little cult minions and teach them the things that Chad had taught her. And it always seemed like it was these women in this group plus Alex Cox plus Chad. But like Chad and Alex were really the only men. And Alex acted as a protector, whereas Chad acted almost as like, you know, the lead who was kind of like passing down this info to Lori. And Alex acted as a protector, whereas Chad acted almost as like, you know, the lead who was kind of like passing down this info to Lori. And then Lori would like spread it and diffuse it throughout her group. But he always, he and Lori would always say bad things about their husbands, right? So you've got Melanie Gibb. Melanie Gibb, when she meets Lori, is married with kids. By the time all of this goes down, Melanie Gibb is divorced from her husband and married

to somebody who's kind of like following the beliefs of Chad. Melanie Bordeaux, who was Lori's niece, is going to do the same thing. She's married to Brandon Bordeaux. They've been married for like 12 years. They got three kids together. But all of a sudden, Lori's like, Brandon is a dark spirit. And so Melanie is like, all right, I'm getting rid of my husband. And she ends up marrying somebody else who's also kind of a follower.

Then you have this girl named Zulima Pastinez. Zulima is a follower of Laurie's. I'm not sure if she was married and everything, but I know she had kids. But by the time all this goes down, she's married to Alex Cox, Laurie's brother. OK. And Laurie herself is married to Charles. And then, you know, Charles gets gone because Laurie has her brother. Okay. And Lori herself is married to Charles. And then we, you know, Charles gets, gets gone because Lori has her brother kill him. And then Lori's married to

Chad. So it seemed kind of like Chad didn't really want a lot of other men around, if you ask me, because he has low self-esteem and probably a small penis. Whoa. Just saying. Not the penis. Yep. I'm sorry. The storm. I mean, can it be small if it's the storm? Yeah, it can be like a summer storm, you know, where just the rain sprinkles and then the clouds go away. It's not like a hurricane or anything. Come on. There's no way. There's no way that dude brought the heat. I'm sorry. So like I said, he does this a lot, right? He does this a lot with men. It looked like he was threatened to have men around, which once again is a huge hallmark of cults. And also I will say a huge hallmark of Mormon communities that are on the fringes of society, right? So like these communities that are still functioning with like polygamy and things like that, what do we see? What do they do? They chase the young men out. And then the old men who are there and who are like elders in the church, they have their pick of all the women that they want because they chase all the other young men out. This is what happens. So it's actually pretty interesting. I. I find it very interesting. The whole dynamic of all this stuff is interesting. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners or viewers are feeling the same way.

It does give some more context to these people and how, when you ask yourself, how could someone do this to children, nevermind just children, but their own children or her own children. And when you start to hear about some of the other things that, these aren't the things that are publicized everywhere. This isn't the headline stuff. This is the little nuances, the little things behind closed, you know, behind the scenes that unless you're doing it here, you're not going to hear about. But when you hear all these things like, oh, they were batshit crazy. Okay, now I'm getting it. They weren't just some normal people who all of a sudden out of nowhere just flipped a switch. No, this was happening from day one since they met. Even before they met. Even before they met, I would say. Yeah. So Lori herself, by Chad, was rated a 4.3 L. Of course she was. Her first husband was rated a 2 L, but her second and third husband were both rated as dark spirits with William LaGioglia being a 2 D, too dark, and Joe Ryan being a 4.3 dark. Damn.

Strangely enough, though, and I will not understand this, Chad rated Lori's current husband, Charles Vallow, as a 3L. And he could have rated him as a dark spirit, but maybe he thought that would be too obvious if he did that. So he was trying to be like, pragmatic. I don't understand that. I never will get that. But Charles Vallow's first wife was rated a 2D and one of his sons, Cole, was also rated a 2D. And the other two boys were rated as light spirits. Lori's niece, Melanie, was rated a 3L, but her husband, Brandon, was rated a 3D. And Melanie's four kids were all rated as light spirits. Now on to JJ and Tylee.

What light or dark rating did Chad give them? Now this is, by the way, because of our previous conversation, I was hoping you're giving all the family members and I'm like, I wonder if he rated the kids. So yeah, I'm interested to hear this one. So JJ seemed to be okay. He was rated a 4.2 L. But Chad told Lori that her 16-year-old daughter, Tylee, was a 4.1 D. And remember, Chad said anyone 4.1 and above had already made a covenant to their side, and they would rarely change sides. Now, check this out. People say like, oh, Chad's the

one rating everybody light and dark, and that's why Lori did this. But he rated Charles Vallow as a light spirit. And he rated JJ as a very high light spirit, 4.2L, which means he already made a covenant with the light side. And he's not going to make a covenant with the dark side. It's very rare to switch sides. Yet Lori wanted JJ dead anyways. Why? Well, as I think we'll find as we go through this episode,

Lori continually tells people that JJ has become an obstacle to her living her life and being with Chad. JJ has become too much to handle. So you could say like, oh, Lori was manipulated by Chad, but Chad rated JJ a very high light spirit. And yet, she still ended up killing him. So is it Chad or is it Lori who just used Chad's beliefs to justify what she was doing? And then because Tylee would be killed first, right? Tylee would be killed first. And then JJ would follow not long after. So, you know, then Lori is going to say things like, well, you know, it's sometimes people's mission or part of their mission that they've been given by God to die. Right. So now she's just making things up as she goes, because it's not about being a dark or a light spirit at this point, in my opinion. So Lori and Chad, they actually give an explanation as to why they killed him at

some point. I know we're not going to cover right now. We got to get to the end, but they haven't. I don't really think so, no. I'm pretty confident that somehow this plays into it, right? Right, right. This definitely plays it. It wasn't just some random act where we're over them, we want to get rid of them. There was something that was decided based on religion. Now, who was the person promoting it? We could debate that all night, right? Who was the main person who brought this up, this idea? Was it Chad or was it Lori? But overall, I think right here what you're covering, which is I think why you're covering it this in depth. This is the reason behind why they were taken out. There was, oh, I don't want to have anything to do with JJ. Like, I'm done with it. He's like, you know,ly following them at the time. And then they realize like, oh, shit, this got dark. We better like backpedal here and go talk to the police because we don't want to be like really connected with this. So people like Melanie Gibb, Lori would tell like,

oh, JJ's missing because he's a zombie. Like I figured out he's a zombie, you know, which means he's inhabited by like a dark spirit, even though Chad's rating JJ as a very high light spirit. So it's all about what Lori's interpretation of everything is. Yeah. And this definitely seems like the core of the issue here and how they got around to justifying why they did what they did, which is obviously nonsense. But it's interesting. And so in November of 2018, so a month after they first meet, Chad traveled to Phoenix, Arizona for another conference. And while Charles Vallow was out of town, Lori opened up their home to Chad so that he had a place to stay while he was in Arizona. And it was at that point that Chad and Lori consummated their eternal love on this earthly

plane. And Chad saw just what Lori had going under those 17 layers of clothing. During the conference in Phoenix, which was attended by Chad, Lori and Melanie Gibb and a woman named Zulema Pastinas. Now we have to talk about Zulema for a moment. I Lori, who took some time that day to testify about how she was visited by angels who gave her instructions. And, you know, Lori said she'd been a personal witness of Jesus Christ. Zulema thought that Lori was convincing, vivacious, and in very high spiritual standing. And basically, Zulema was completely bought in. And she went with Lori and Melanie to the Preparing People conference in Phoenix and witnessed Lori and Chad's interactions in person, saying she often felt like a third wheel because the two were so obviously vibing. She said, quote, at first it was just regular talking, and then it was obvious that Lori was very flirtatious toward him, very giggly,

and putting the moves on him, end quote. But soon Zulima would become pulled in by Chad as well, who would spend a lot of time giving her attention, talking to her about her past lives, and even telling her that in one past life, Zulema had been Lori's daughter, a daughter who had died at the age of 14 after being raped. Chad's just making this shit up as he goes along, right? I think we can establish, I think you can agree with me, he's not getting visions about people's past lives. He's just making stuff up. Are we on the same page here? I do think so, but I feel like with a lot of these quote-unquote cult leaders, I do think they're, in some cases, they just be complete carnartists, but I also think there's some that have some type of mental illness where the mental illness that they have, they're misinterpreting as like signs from someone, some other world or some of the universe.

I'm not saying that's the case with Chad or it isn't, but I do think it might be more likely a combination of some type of underlying mental illness and then using those visions that you may or may not get in certain situations to justify other actions by saying, hey, you know, I had a vision. All right. This was something I, you know, was told, you know, for me to do. So I don't think he started off being a con artist. I think there was something that happened where he felt like he really was destined for something greater. And then I do think that at some point, especially with the other women, he would go to that. Hey, listen, in a past life, we were together or whatever. I think that's complete bullshit. I think he didn't know Lori Vallow was going to walk up to him that day. He saw her and based on her appearance, he dropped that line. There was no previous vision.

Yes. Right. But what I'm saying is, regardless of if he's making it up and he's a con artist or he's actually like mentally ill and he's like thinking that these visions are coming from God, this narrative, this story of this 14-year-old girl being, you know, dying after being raped, that's a creation. That's a brain creation of Chad. Yeah, I agree with that. That's concerning. Yeah. I mean, this is all concerning. I mean, make it certain since they said hello to each other. I know.

But Zulema Pastinas and Melanie Gibb, they basically have said almost identical things about why they followed and believed in Chad and Lori. Chad and Lori told everyone that they were a part of the special 144,000 who would be spared and brought to live in cities of white tents when the rapture came. Zulima Pastinas said that Chad would give her multiple blessings and he called her a goddess of the earth, which made her feel very good and very special. And, you know, like there's text between them where Zulima will text Chad and be like, oh, Chad, I'm being like spiritually attacked right now. And Chad's like, hold on, Zulima, I'm sending a sealing blessing to your house and I'm being like spiritually attacked right now. And Chad's like, hold on, Zulima. I'm sending a sealing blessing to your house and I'm going to protect you. Oh, wait, they're coming in hard. The spirits are attacking so hard.

Hold on. I have to devote all my energy to this for a moment. Okay, Zulima. He's texting her. Okay, Zulima, you should be all set. I put the spiritual blessing of protection around your home and these pesky spirits should not be attacking you anymore. So like they're going to him for this random stuff. Just, you know, even when they're not in person, they're all like sort of going to him still.

He still has a hold on them, even when they're not all in person. He's in a completely different state. Chad and Lori made these people feel special. Like they were, which I get it, right? Like the rapture is coming. The end of the world is coming. How many people are on the earth? I don't know. Do you know? Like a millions and millions, right? Well, it's like 300 million in the United States. I don't know. Lots of people on earth. Only 144,000 of those people are going to make it through

this like apocalypse. Yeah, it's a lot. And that's only because they are special and chosen by God. And you are one of them. You are one of the special ones chosen by God. How does that make you feel? Pretty good. Pretty good.

Yeah. Right. Like I had mentioned earlier, Zulema Pastinas would end up becoming Alex's wife in November of 2019, a month before he died. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right. So that weekend of the conference in Phoenix, Chad and Lori had sex for the first time at Lori's house while her husband's away. And they hosted other people from the conference at Lori's house so they could all gather and watch Chad swing his owl necklace and tell everyone who they'd been in their past lives. Chad said that he had already lived 31 previous lives or probations, as he called them. In one of those lives, he'd been James and he'd been married to

Lori, who was named Elena, and they'd had seven children together, four sons and three daughters. One of these daughters had been Lori's niece, Melanie. One of the sons had been JJ Vallow. So once again, he continues to put JJ in high standing, in a good light. Okay? This is not Chad who's making JJ look bad. I see where you're going with this. There's a point where you're saying if he was, if there's history and evidence.

If he was the one driving it, yeah. And this was what had pushed her over the edge and made her think her children were evil and needed to be like dealt with he was not rating jj as like an evil spirit or a dark spirit or anything but i just wonder like if he i don't know could he have changed his mind and we didn't know about that is that possible i think that laurie changed her mind about jj and like Chad was just going to do whatever Lori wanted to do. And at that point he was like, hell, I've already rated one of her kids dark spirits and now she wants to kill that kid. So, you know, and she's right. JJ is kind of a hindrance to like our relationship.

So I'm going to do whatever Lori wants to do. On that Sunday, Lori and Chad strolled through a park hand in hand, and Chad told her more about her past lives. Lori had been Elena, daughter of Jesus's half-brother, Judas. She'd married James the Just. In another life, Lori had been the wife of the prophet Moroni. In another, she'd been the daughter of Methuselah. But she'd always been special. She'd always been meant for something more. And Chad told her that they'd both been chosen by God to not be part of the 144,000, but to lead them, to lead them. They had been specifically chosen by God to usher in the end times in the second coming of Jesus Christ and to basically rid the world of these dark spirits before it happened, which I don't understand

why. If the rapture is going to come and take everyone out anyways, why do you have to do that? But I mean, logic, details, who cares about that stuff? Yes. Minor stuff. And I do, I will say, I think like Zulema and like Melanie, this made Lori feel special and powerful. She'd previously thought she was just one of the 144,000. But now she knew that she and Chad were destined to lead the 144,000 together as their prophets. This is a very special place to be in. And you've got all these people being like, oh, yeah, Lori's spiritually elevated. Oh, yeah, we got to go to Lori to tell us what to do. We got to go to Lori and Chad. They're going to tell us what to do. You have these people who are literally like just following,

hanging on their every word. That's going to make somebody who's always kind of been looking for or who's always like enjoyed attention. So for instance, for Chad, I think it's like he always wanted attention and he never got it and he never got respect. And now he's getting it. So he enjoys that. And Lori's always needed attention.

She's on Wheel of Fortune. She's got to be on stage at the Mrs. USA pageant. She has to be always the center of attention. She's walking around in a bikini in the house for no damn reason other than she can and she looks good. And that's fine. But someone like that, someone like Lori, who is a narcissist and who is like full of herself

and who's always looking in the mirror, like her sister-in-law said, she needs all eyes on her. Chad really wanted respect and he wanted people to like look up to him and follow him. But Lori needed everyone to be watching her and following her too. He wanted it. She needed it, if that makes sense. Makes total sense. I'm with you. And I'm starting to see your side of it as far as, especially with the previous history we have and what we're knowing about Lori and how the story is changing. And maybe you're right. Maybe it was Lori driving the ship. She's the stronger personality of the two.

I agree with that. I agree with that. I just feel like Chad was stronger in his religious beliefs. And I think Lori really didn't give a shit about it as much as first as much as she was about him. She wanted him. Chad would say things and Lori would be like, oh, I don't know. And I think, you know, she told Melanie, if Chad is the devil, he's a really good one. You know, meaning like if he's leading me astray, I don't give a shit because I'm having fun. Right. She don't care. She don't care. Do you think she initially came in? Okay. Do you think when she initially saw Chad and wanted to be part of Chad's circle or be with Chad, it was like, oh, because of the religion or more so she was enamored by him. I think because of the religion. How could you be enamored by him? Come on, man. He is so boring. Have you heard him speak? Oh my God. He's like such a dork, man. So you don't think she was ever attracted to him. It was what he represented and the power

he had. The attention and the power he had within that spiritual community, the he got within that spiritual community he wanted to be close to it yeah okay he wanted to be close to it i buy that actually and almost like take over his throne kind of like okay you're already in a position of power i'm gonna get close to you kind of like you know like catherine the great of russia she like married p, who was the leader of Russia. And then she was like, you suck at this. So I'm going to take Russia from you. And she did. I think you even see it in entertainment world where you'll have people who will gravitate

towards successful artists or creators in order to get their own light. Beyonce and Jay-Z. Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton. Beyonce's way more talented than Jay-Z. Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton. Beyonce's way more talented than Jay-Z. Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton. Very true. That was a real good example. Yes. Right? Good job. Yeah. Well, Kim is a social climber. Like the original. But I mean, dude, she legit was like her assistant. Yeah. Like, well, she was like her stylist or something. Whatever it was. Her closet organizer. She just mastered that she mastered it but yeah

yeah pretty much but i mean what i think we have with laurie here is she wanted somebody who was her spiritual equal right she felt like charles valo just couldn't keep up so there is an aspect of the religious zealousness in it but then i think when she was in there she was like oh yo you're going like kind of crazy and i like it you know it was like, I think that there comes a point in a lot of these women's lives because they're all married. They all have kids. They all have like these normal day-to-day lives. And I know that even though everyone's like, oh, I love being a wife and I love being a

mother, like you need more than that. Okay. Like a lot of people need more than that. They need a purpose. They need something that drives them. So you almost get sick of like civility. You almost get sick of just like being good and doing the right thing every day. And you kind of long for this opportunity to just like go ham. And I think

that this was Lori's like window. She's like, oh, wow, you're off your rocker. And I'm really loving it. Like, let's do this shit, you know? Yeah. No, you ain't wrong. You definitely, you got Lori pegged, that's for sure. Yeah. I spent a lot of time with Lori in my head, unfortunately. So according to Melanie Gibb, that weekend in November that Chad came to Arizona for the conference, he and Lori were sealed together. And you know what that means, like in the LDS religion, like they're together in this life and in the next life they're together forever. And Melanie was like, this doesn't really make sense because Lori is still married to Charles Vallow and Chad still married to Tammy Daybell. And ceilings can only be performed by certain like church or temple officials. And people cannot be sealed to a second spouse if they're legally married to a living person already. Melanie said, quote, Lori said they felt they were sealed by those on the other side of the veil that had the authority to do that. She said

it was okay they did this because they had been married so many times before that their current spouses would understand someday, end quote. And Lori and Chad always give this excuse to their followers because their followers are just kind of going along. But they're also like used to the, you know, typical Mormon beliefs and like what they're taught. And so sometimes they'll be like, this feels like weird. This doesn't feel right. And, you know, why don't you just get divorced? Like, why don't you, Chad, divorce Tammy and you, Lori, divorce Charles, and you guys can do whatever the hell you want, because what you're doing right now is making us all kind of feel weird and Chad and Lori would be like don't worry don't no one cares because we've been together forever like this just just normal

this it would be weird for us not to be like rubbing on each other and flirting with each other and attached to each other all the time it would be weird if we weren't doing that and then their followers are like okay I, I guess, you know. In his romance novel that he would later write about himself and Lori, Chad said that James gave Elena a blessing that weekend. He wrote, quote, As he placed his hand on her head, he felt their spirits connect with a surge of power. At that moment, his only desire in life was to be with her as always throughout eternity. And that desire has continued to intensify. During the blessing,

he was shown the great missions they would perform together. He knew this was an eternal union that would forever change the world. End quote. I mean, it forever changed their world. The rest of us have moved on, Chad. So during the next few months, Lori's behavior drastically changed, especially towards her husband, Charles, who was working a lot, but who was around enough to notice something had shifted. In fact, he told his sister, Kay Woodcock, that Lori was no longer the same woman he had married. He didn't recognize her. Now, in order to explain a little bit how Lori was acting, what she was saying, we're going to fast forward in the timeline a bit to February of 2019 when Charles filed for divorce and when he attempted to get custody of JJ. So in this paperwork, he's going to, well, it's his lawyer writing this, but the lawyer refers to Charles as father and Lori as mother, just so it's not confusing.

This document says that Charles was worried based on recent decisions and concerning comments made by Lori that she may not have been stable enough to be making decisions for herself and for JJ. Charles said that two weeks prior, Lori had left their home and had limited contact with him. She had only returned when Charles was on a business trip in Texas, Houston to be exact, and at that point, she cleared out Charles's possessions from their home. She also canceled his flight home from Texas, which he didn't even figure out until he got to the airport the day of the flight. Charles ended up having to buy a new plane ticket, which was hard because Lori had cleared out his bank account, $35,000. I think she left something like $6 in there and he had to like scrounge up $600 for a plane ticket. And when he landed in Phoenix and went to get his truck in the

parking lot, he found it wasn't there because Lori had used the spare key and moved it, just like moved it and put it somewhere. So Charles had to get a taxi. He tried to contact Lori. She wouldn't answer. When he finally made his way home, which we're going to talk about in a little bit, and he had to call the police and they had to kick the door down because she changed the locks, he realized she'd taken his desktop computer, his clothes and his underwear. He couldn't find them. JJ's iPad, JJ's clothes and medication,

all these other items could not be found. Charles spoke with Lori, who told him that she and JJ were spending the night in a hotel and she would bring JJ to school the next day, but she didn't want anything to do with Charles or JJ because, quote, she had a more important mission to carry out, end quote. This paperwork also states, quote, mother has recently become infatuated and at times obsessive about near-death experiences and spiritual visions. Mother has told father that she is sealed to the ancient book of Mormon prophet Moroni, and that she has lived

numerous lives on numerous planets prior to this current life. Mother also believes that she was married to James the Just in a past life and also lived as Mary French in the 1800s, who was Joseph Smith Jr.'s natural grandmother. Mother also informed father that she is a translated being who cannot taste death, sent by God to lead the 144,000 into the millennium. Mother believes that she has received spiritual revelations and visions to help her gather and prepare those chosen to live in the New Jerusalem after the Great War as prophesied in the book of Revelations. On January 29, 2019, during a phone conversation between the parties and after their physical separation,

mother informed father that she was a god assigned to carry out the work of the 144,000 at Christ's second coming in July 2020, and that if father got in the way of her mission, she would murder him. The next day, father was on a business trip in Houston, and during another phone conversation, she kept referring to father as Nick Schneider instead of father's name. Father asked who Nick Schneider was and mother told him that Nick was father's real name because Nick had killed father and taken his identity. Mother proceeded to warn father that she would kill him upon his return home and she had an angel there to help her dispose of the body. She also mentioned that she could not trust father and that she would not only kill him but destroy him financially. Father had attempted to get mother some help but she refuses to visit a doctor because they would discover that she is a translated being, end quote.

And Lori talks about this a lot, like she no longer needs to sleep. She no longer needs to eat. She's a translated being. She's a god on earth. According to many people who were around Chad and Lori at this time, the couple believed that some people were possessed by evil spirits and this made them zombies. And it was Chad and Lori's job to rid the world of these zombies. Apparently, Chad and Lori also believed that they could cast out spirits and Lori claimed to have cast out the devil once. She said she had folded the devil into the shape of a taco and locked him in a box in Antarctica. Texts between Chad and Lori would

also refer to percentages, and this appeared to be death percentages ranging from zero to 100. And the closer you were to zero or 100, the closer you were to death or the closer you were to being completely taken over by evil spirits. And this is going to make more sense about why it's so nefarious and why it's really bad later on when we talk about some texts that Chad and Lori would exchange, basically with Lori always checking with Chad and being like, OK, what percentage is Tylee at now? OK, what percentage is JJ at now? Basically, like, are they ready to be killed? Essentially. Also, Chad had apparently constructed a spiritual portal in Lori's closet, which was a way for them to interact spiritually. So you'll see in text that Chad sends Lori, he's like, okay, I'm going to bed now. I'll see you in a minute. And like in his mind, I guess, or in their mind, he was going to bed, but he was going into his closet. And then like Narnia coming out spiritually, like astral projecting wise in her room where he would then cuddle up

with her in bed but also they used this portal as a way to like check and see how many zombies they'd taken care of because initially Chad and Lori weren't like killing zombies with their own hands they were just doing this like special prayer so Melanie Gibbs said that they would do this special prayer for a certain state. So Texas, for instance, they would get together and make this like huge, intense, powerful prayer to rid the zombies that were in Texas. And then they would open the portal and check and see how what number would come up. So like, oh, 10,000 zombies just died in Texas because of your prayer and the power behind it. And they'd be like,

yeah, high fives. We got those zombies in Texas. And that's what they would do and talk about all the time. They talked about this, like people wouldn't find them to be crazy. And their followers didn't find them to be crazy at first. Their followers were like, yeah, totally valid. You're praying and the 10,000 people, aka zombies, are just dropping dead in Texas. And nobody's talking about this on the news. Okay. Well, I can see where this is going. It's crazy. But like you said, at this point, they're doing just a prayer and they're just doing it through the prayer and not physically doing it. And so obviously with everything, there's always got to be with a lot of things, I shouldn't say everything, an escalation where you're not getting the same high from whatever you're doing. You're not getting that same gratification from whatever you're doing.

So you got to up the ante, right? And that happens in a lot of things, not just what we're talking about here today. So a common human trait where when you do something enough, it loses its zest. It loses the feeling that you get from it. So you got to find a way to get that back. And it's usually heightening whatever you're doing, creasing the risk, the danger to it, or being physically involved with it as opposed to just mentally involved with it. They had to up the ante. Or you've already convinced your followers that zombies exist and you're already doing a prayer and stuff to take them out. So now when you want to maybe take somebody out in the real world that

you know, is it going to be that shocking when you're like, yeah, I mean, but they're not in Texas. They're right here. So why don't I just take care of them myself? Because I'm a warrior of Jesus. So why does it, why are you shocked followers? This is what we've been doing. You know, zombies exist. You've already accepted this. So why can't you accept this? Right? Yep. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. We are back. And on December 5th, 2018, so this is a month after they've consummated their eternal love, Lori and Chad made their first appearance together on a Preparing Up People podcast called Time to Warrior Up. At the end of this episode, Lori spoke directly to their

listeners saying, quote, you're dying for direction. Our society does not instill that. And I just say, this is the time to warrior up. Here we are. We're getting started. End quote. Lori Vallow legit thought she was the Mockingjay, man. She thought she was like Joan of Arc over here. At this point, it's reported that Lori had at least three different cell phones, one she specifically used to communicate with Chad. Lori started telling her friends that her husband, Charles, was blocking her spiritual gifts. And she told Melanie and Zulema that Charles and JJ were going to be in a car accident between Arizona and Texas and die before January 31st, 2019. She said she'd seen this happen in a dream or a vision.

And when this didn't happen, Melanie Gibb asked Lori, why? Why didn't this happen? You said you saw it in a vision. You're a translated being. And Lori said, well, it should have happened, but Satan interfered with our plan and saved them. And Melanie Gibb claimed that Lori was very visibly and openly disappointed that Charles Vallow was still alive. But after

this, Lori suddenly began telling her little group of followers, which included Melanie Gibbs, Zulima Pastinas, and her niece, Melanie Bordeaux, as well as others, that Charles had been infiltrated by a dark spirit. First, it was this Nick Schneider, and then it was somebody named Garrett. And over the next few months, Lori would claim that Charles was inhabited by three to four dark spirits that needed to be cast out. And this was pretty much due to Chad telling Laurie in early January that an old acquaintance of his had recently passed away, someone with the last name Schneider. And Chad was like, listen, don't be alarmed. But this person is a dark spirit, and now they're in limbo and he somehow managed to take over Charles's body so your husband's like possessed by a dark spirit like don't be alarmed

just be aware Zulema said that Lori was always talking about Charles being different he was acting different he was a completely different person Zulema said that Lori claimed Charles even looked different he was shorter and Lori stated that the demon Garrett had been following Charles around for years watching him and learning everything about him so that Garrett could successfully pose as Charles when he finally took his body over. At the end of December 2018, Lori's niece Melanie and her husband Brandon, along with their children, visited Lori and Charles for Christmas. And this was something that they often did. These two families spent a lot of time together. Charles and Brandon had become very close friends.

The two families were always together. Lori had gotten Melanie back into religion. So Melanie's husband, Brandon, was like, oh, I always had to force Melanie to go to temple. She wasn't really that into it. But then suddenly Lori kind of like came back into Melanie's life and Melanie was going to temple with Lori all the time. And Melanie and Lori would attend things that Lori called firesides, where basically this group would gather at people's homes and discuss religious topics together. But these were not church-sanctioned events,

and Charles and Brandon were never invited. So like I said, they all usually got along and had a good time. But that holiday season, Brandon noticed that things were different, and he noticed that Charles and Lori's marriage was going downhill and fast. In January of 2019, so the next month, Charles texted Brandon and said that Lori was accusing him of being unfaithful. And Charles is like becoming more and more just despondent. He doesn't know what's going on with Lori. She's accusing him of things he's not doing. He's like, no, I'm not cheating. I've always been faithful to you. What are you talking about? And in fact, by now, Charles had a little bit of a suspicion

that Lori and Chad Daybell were closer than she let on, but he wasn't even doing anything about it because he was just like blindly in love with her. Now that month also, Chad not only told Lori that her husband was inhabited by a demon, but he also sent her a list of the seven missions that they were to accomplish together. One, translating ancient records. Two, write a book together. Three, identify locations in northeast Arizona for white camps. And those are the tent cities. Four, establish the presidency of the Church of the Firstborn.

Five, organize food distributions as the tribulations start. Six, ordain individuals to translation as the camps begin and provide supplies to righteous members of families. So let's go back for a second. I think it's funny that Chad wants to write a book with Lori, even though the end of the world is coming. What's the point in doing that, right? What's the point in doing that, right? What's the point in doing that when the end is right around the corner? And according to Lori's brother, Adam, it was right around this time

that Lori started sending him and his family like tons of food for the end times. And Adam's wife said something like, I don't want this food. It was just tons of food and I don't want it because honestly, if like everybody's gonna be taken out and the world's gonna be like wiped out, I don't wanna still be around.

Like I don't want to be one of the 144,000. Like I have no interest in that. So they knew that Lori was obsessed with the end times. She was sending them food. She was trying to prepare people. But basically, I think it's interesting. The presidency of the Church of the Firstborn was this Chad and Lori's church that they were going to start when the world was new. Kind of a cool name, but it's not going to happen. Neither did the apocalypse in July of 2020, like Chad said it

would. So I want to go back just a little bit as far as what you're saying about Charles. Was it Chad or was it Lori that started this whole, he's been taken over by a demon? Chad. Okay. And that's what I thought you said. Chad had said to her that she's been taken over by a demon. Chad. Okay. And that's what I thought you said. Chad had said to her that she's been taken over by a demon. So let me ask you this, because I was agreeing with you a little earlier. What's to say Chad didn't eventually say to Lori, your children have been taken over by demons and that he was the driving force behind this? Not so much Lori. Because he already saw Chad and you said it earlier. It wasn't so much that he was having these visions behind this. Not so much Laurie. Because he already saw Chad, and you said it earlier.

It wasn't so much that he was having these visions all the time, right? There was a lot of cases where he wasn't having any visions, but hiding what he wanted to do as a human being behind these quote-unquote visions that he was finding through his religion. Do we think that he actually had visions about Charles as far as him being taken over by this demon? No, probably not. It was something where Charles was getting in the way of his relationship with Lori,

so he wanted to remove him from the equation. So he started filling Lori's head with this idea that he had been taken over by a demon. And obviously she was on board with that for multiple reasons. Is it possible that this is a similar set of circumstances that happened with the kids? It's possible. Food for thought. Or is it possible that Chad wanted to get Charles out of the way and Lori was like, okay, and then saw that how easy it was to just say somebody was a demon or a zombie

and then get rid of them and nobody would even blink twice? Possible. I'm going with my hypothesis as of right now, though. And again, it's no wrong or right. We both lose in this scenario, right? Two kids were killed. But it's one of those things where I'm telling you, there's something about Chad for me that makes me think he was on this course regardless.

I just feel like Lori put him on the fast track. Maybe. I mean, to me, he just seems like weak sauce, you know? I think he is. I think he might never have gotten there, but he was going this extremist version of this religion regardless. Like, this was, I think there's a part of him that really believed a lot of this. But he would never have done anything without his goddess to worship. I agree.

I agree. Like, she definitely helped him, and he might never have gotten to the level, although you have said it numerous times, he was already popular before Lori. And so he was already on some type of trajectory within this organization. what happened or why it happened to the children, you have another party in Charles Vallow who is involved and just a hindrance, right? A hindrance in the eyes of Chad. And so all of a sudden, ironically, Chad has this vision that Charles has been taken over by a demon. How convenient, how convenient. And we've already just got done discussing how, you know, Lori and Charles and Chad were eradicating these zombies with their minds. And here we go. Here's this escalation where now things that are occurring in Chad's personal life, he is finding ways to ingrain that into his religious practices so they can kill two birds with one stone.

So, you know how they say like the blinds lead in the blind? Yeah. I feel like Chad is crazy, but has no balls. You know, he's just this weak, lumpy, like oatmeal man. And he may have like been able to weasel his way into other women's hearts. But as soon as he started talking about this crazy shit, I feel like they would have been like, oh, hold on, Tiger. You know, he had to meet someone who was as crazy as he was for this to work. And that person was Lori. And I don't think there's a lot of people like Lori walking around on Earth. I hope not. You just said it. Chad,

Chad came to this conclusion about him being taken over by a demon on his own. It wasn't like Lori said to him, unless we don't know the whole story, but Lori didn't go to him and go, Chad, you know what? I think Charles has been taken over by a demon. He goes, yeah, you know what? I think I have been having some visions of that. He came up with this on his own, apparently, from what we understand, right? So it was the end of January when Charles went away to Houston for a business trip. That's the business trip he's going to talk about in those custody paperwork and filings. And like I said, this is the incident he's describing. So on January 29th, 2019, as soon as Charles left, Lori transferred $35,000 from his business account into a new bank

account that she had set up in her name. Then she and Melanie Gibb went to the airport and they basically stole Charles's truck and then drove it to the home of a friend and left it there. Lori canceled Charles's flight home, changed the locks at their house. She and Melanie hid all of Charles's things that he was missing in a closet behind a bunch of food. And then Lori checked into the Hyatt Hotel with JJ Tiley and JJ's service dog, a golden doodle named Bailey. Now, Charles actually called the police in Gilbert, Arizona, while he was still in the airport in Houston. And he realized that Lori had canceled his flight. And then he realized that Lori had stolen all his money and he couldn't

even make payroll for his company. And so the police in Gilbert actually sent Charles the paperwork that he needed to file an emergency health petition, which would make Lori undergo a mandatory psychiatric evaluation. Once Charles landed in Phoenix, he went to Community Bridges Healthcare in Mesa, Arizona, and he filed the emergency petition for Lori to be held for 72 hours. And then basically what happens at that point, I'm sure you know, is the police are notified. They have to pick Lori up. They got to go and find her. But if she's not home, there's not really much that they can do. So Charles actually met the police at the house, but Lori wasn't there. So he and the police like kicked the door down. And here's a video of

Charles begging the police for help. Has she made any statements about wanting to hurt the children or anything? Today, she said with Gabe on the phone, come take the kids. I don't care what happens tomorrow. I can't get in touch with my kids. How old are your kids? Six and a half and 16. In late January 2019, Charles Vallow returned from a work trip in Houston to find his truck missing from the airport parking lot and $35,000 taken from his bank account. Worse yet, he said he couldn't get in touch with JJ and Tylee. How does she pose a threat to your children? I don't know what she's going to do with them. I don't know if she's going to flee with them. She's going to hurt them. Gilbert police showed up to their house after Charles filed a

petition to get Lori involuntarily committed for a mental health evaluation. She's lost her mind. I don't know how else to say it. We're LDS. She thinks she's a resurrected being and a God and a member of the 144,000. She's come. Jesus is coming next year. She said, you're not Charles. I don't know who you are, what you did with Charles, but I can murder you now with my powers. Charles explained to the officers that Lori had changed over the last couple of months, and she had people in Utah telling her how many lives she's had. You're a dark spirit, is what she's going to tell you. Okay. I'm a dark spirit.

Officers had Charles kick in the door to his own house, but ultimately told him Lori hadn't committed a crime. And like, it's so tragic because this poor guy for days begs for help from anyone and everyone. And Lori manipulates everyone. But we'll get there. So the next morning after this night, because Charles just didn't know where Lori was, he went to JJ's school because he knew that Lori was going to drop JJ off at school and he basically waited for Lori to arrive. He watched her park. He watched her walk inside to bring JJ inside. And then while she was away from her vehicle, Charles opened the door.

He grabbed her purse and cell phone. He got out of there in his rental car and then he went through her purse and he found a hotel key card for the Hyatt in downtown Gilbert, Arizona. So he drove there and he called the police and he was like, OK, meet me here so you can bring this bitch in for her psychiatric evaluation. So the police get there and they're like in the parking lot with him. He's got to explain everything all over to these new police. And he goes in like Charles goes in. The whole thing is recorded. There's body cam footage and everything.

It's like 27 minutes long if you want to watch it ever. But Charles goes into the hotel to like see if Lori's there. And while he's gone, the police are in the parking lot basically like making fun of the situation. And they're like, oh, well, she's married to the prophet Moroni. So like, of course, she's, you know, got issues and blah, blah, blah. And they're just kind of like making light of the whole situation. And then he finds out that Lori's not there. And Charles basically was like, OK, she's not here right now. Basically, I know she's going to pick

J.G. up around 345 p.m. Like, let's rendezvous back here around then. Charles told the responding officers at the hotel Lori's religious beliefs had gone too far. She lost touch with reality. He literally said, she's scaring me. She says she's going to kill me. She says she's going to destroy me. Every time I talk to her, Lori just yells at me and says, I'm not me. I'm an evil spirit. I'm Nick Schneider.

It's not making any sense. It's crazy. And the police were like, listen, it's not that simple. We can't just, you know, interfere. We can't just do anything to Lori. We can't just arrest her. She hasn't committed a crime. And, you know, we don't have her side of the story. And Charles says, quote, I want to get her help. She's not right. I love her to death, but there's something wrong. And if she wants me gone, goodbye. That's fine. I just don't want her

to hurt JJ. End quote. He's begging for help. And these police are just like joking around the whole time. So after this, Charles is kind of just like desperate. And he's like, well, I don't know where she is. We can't come back here until like 345. And I have to do something in the meantime, because he's really, really worried about JJ. And so he uses her phone and he starts texting like people that she knows, her friends and stuff in an effort to find out where she was. And so Melanie Gibb gets a text and the text is like, hey, come to my house immediately. And so she went to Lori's house thinking it was Lori sending the text. And then what she finds instead is a very frustrated Charles who's got a locksmith there trying to like change the locks

and get the locks back on and fix the door that he kicked down. And he's like, where's Lori? And Melanie's like, I don't know where Lori is. And I'm not going to tell her where, I'm not going to tell you where she is, even if I knew. And I would kindly ask you to give me Lori's purse and phone because you stole them. And Charles was like, no, I'm not giving you her shit back until she gets some help and until I know where she is.

So Melanie left Charles and then she drove right to the house of a man named Jason Mowell. Jason was a former narcotics detective who also happened to be the host of the Field of Fire podcast that Melanie was a co-host of and also the Warrior Up podcast. So Jason, being like retired law enforcement, told Melanie, oh, this is wrong. Charles shouldn't be doing this because they're all brainwashed, for God's sakes. And Jason says, Lori needs to go to the police and report Charles for harassment and like theft which is exactly what Lori did and she goes with Melanie and Tylee to the Gilbert police department and you can hear her basically say the first thing like my friend who's a cop told me I need

to do this you know she's like using this fake legitimacy. And then she completely just like charms the pants off of this police officer. Yesterday, I got in an argument with my husband on the phone and he was in Texas working and I found some stuff that he'd been doing. So he was really defensive. And so I took the kids. We spent the night in a hotel because I knew he was coming home. He was acting like my son was in danger.

I'm worried about JJ. The officers called Charles to ask for Lori's purse back. He asked if they would serve her the order. When they brought up the mental health evaluation, Lori couldn't help but laugh. I just think it's funny because he's trying to tell everybody. He was all upset, wondering what are we going to do about that. I have no until it is verified by my sergeant that it's still active, they still want you. I can't hold you against your will.

But if it's verified by my sergeant, which he says could take a little while, that then if it is verified, then I have to take you to Community Bridges. It's a mental health behavior place to get looked at. But while it's being verified, I have no right to keep you and hold you, just so you're aware. So he's supposedly en route with your purse and your phone, and then with, and the order also, which needs to be verified by my sergeant. So we will facilitate the transfer of the person and the phone. And while we go give the mental health petition to my sergeant, and she's verifying it, you do whatever you feel you need to do.

Okay. Okay. If you want a free medical evaluation, psychological evaluation- I was going to say, I haven't gotten any sleep in about three days. They have good facilities. They do, actually, from what I understand. In a gym where I can work out. Yeah, so, like I said, we...

You'll be okay without your mom. You are going to get a padded room. So, officers don't kick down doors to serve. These are civil orders. Yeah, this cop's a clown. He's, like, smooth because she's an attractive woman, and he's, you know, he's trying to be Joe Cool serve. These are civil orders. Yeah, this cop's a clown. He's like smooth because she's an attractive woman. And he's, you know, he's trying to be Joe Cool Guy. He's an idiot.

I don't know who he is. If he sees this, you're a dummy. If you have, you're going to tell someone. There might be an active order. How to get around an order. Yeah, how to get around it. Oh, if you want to like, you know, leave. Well, let me ask you this dummy.

Let me ask you this dummy. If it comes back and it is confirmed and the woman does need to be checked out, now you got to go track her down again. Whatever. I mean, yeah, this is dumb. And did you hear Tylee? He looks cool, though. He looks cool, though.

Oh, yeah. He looks cool in front of freaking Lori. Yeah. And I mean, listen, I understand he's only got one part of the story and he's hearing it. He kind of sees the daughter involved with it as well, kind of going along with it. And Tylee literally says like, they're going to give you a padded room. That's what she says to her mother. But I think I, now I took that as she was like, we couldn't see her face because it's blurry, but I feel like she was being sarcastic.

Like it was like, this is a joke. I mean, I could be wrong. You obviously took it differently. I think she's silent the whole time. And then Lori's like, oh, yeah, I could use a break. I haven't slept in, you know, three days. And, you know, maybe I should go there. And Tylee's like, bitch, you go there. They're not going to let you leave, man. Oh, see, I didn't take it that way. I wish we could have seen her face because obviously that would give us more.

But, yeah, either way, like, what are you doing? Like, oh, well, we got to verify this. And in the meantime, you decide to, like, take off. Then nothing I can do to stop you. Yeah, super uncomfortable. And I can do to stop you. Yeah. Super uncomfortable. And I don't like the way he talks like, you know, Charles is all upset. Like, no, he's definitely no.

You don't even know what happened. You don't even know why this guy's upset. Like, you think he's just. No. Sometimes you exaggerate as far as like, oh, she just completely had this cop eating out of the palm of her hand. So I was waiting to see the video. But you're 100 percent right. Oh, you should see the whole video eating out of the palm of her hand. So I was waiting to see the video, but you're 100% right.

Oh, you should see the whole video, man. They just be talking. 100% right. You know, laughing. Lori's like, oh, Tylee wants to be a cop. And the guy's like, really? And Tylee's like, I don't know. Maybe.

I don't know. And Lori's just like laughing and flirting and tossing her hair the whole time. And like, I don't even understand. And this is a young guy. Okay. Yeah. I know I'm not saying I'm not being dramatic. And this is a young guy. Okay. Yeah. I know. I'm not saying I'm not being dramatic here because there's a lot of things that led to this.

And this cops, you know, decision and or lack thereof isn't the defining factor. But is it an element in where we are today? Yeah. Could this have been prevented if she had gotten seen by someone? Well, she did. But but not at this moment. Right. I mean, right after this. What if it was voluntarily? Well, she did. But not at this moment, right? Right after this.

She went voluntarily. Okay. All right. Well, that's a little bit more. And I will, in his defense, in his defense, I will say when Tylee says, yeah, I might want to be a cop, you know, whatever. He's like, oh, it's my first month. I just got off training. This is my first month. Yeah. It's obvious. Yeah. So I feel like a lot of what probably cops deal with is kind of on-the-job training. Sometimes these situations are new and you've never encountered them before when you're new on the job. So you don't know how to handle them properly. I got to stop you. Are you really doing this right now?

What? This is staying in, but we've been doing this for two years, okay? And every time you're critical of the police and I defend them, we have an argument tonight. You're critical of the cop. I agree with you. And you're now defending him because I don't like to pile on man. Unless it's like a murderer. I don't like to pile on. Oh my God. I am like flabbergasted right now. Like as you were speaking, I'm like, is this really happening right now? Am you were speaking i'm like is this really happening right now am i in one of chad's dimensions like you immediately were like

that idiot and then i kind of felt bad i'm like well let me give you the whole story he's just a young buck he doesn't know holy shit mind blown right now but continue on defending the cop that let him let her go go ahead well listen, it was his first month on the job. He probably never encountered that situation. And Lori can be very manipulative. You know, if you get Pat Sajak in the palm of your hand, some rookie cop ain't got no shot. Yep. I got nothing else.

I'm going to say another word. Listen, the thing is, she did go. She did go. She ended up going to community bridges where she underwent a psychiatric evaluation at which point they determined that Lori was mentally healthy and she was cleared okay so like we could say Lori's crazy I think without a doubt Chad Daybell is looney tunes fruit loops a banana sundae with extra nuts. But Lori, she was seen by mental health professionals and they said, you're good. Was she not crazy and just like a bad person?

Is this possible? Yep. Yep. I'm still shocked from what just transpired, but I'll come back. Get over yourself. In a report that Officer Edgerton wrote, he cleared the incident, referred to it as a non-crime, saying he found Lori to be completely normal, if not a little bit upset that her belongings had been taken by her husband. So we're and I just think she was really good at pretending to be normal. Like, honestly,

I do. I think she was very good at just pretending to be normal. And, you know, she told the cop, like, oh, I caught Charles cheating on me. And that's why he's mad. And that's why he's doing this. Like she told everybody. She told her entire family, her parents, her brothers, everyone that Charles was cheating on her. And she found out. So it would make sense of, you know, why she was trying to leave him and why she was doing these things.

Let's take our last break and we'll be right back. We're back. We're moving on to February of 2019. Charles Vallow had to contact his sister Kay Woodcock in Louisiana and basically ask for her help because Lori took off and he didn't know where she was at. He needed help running his business. He needed help taking care of JJ. And Charles had also found the email that Chad Daybell had sent Lori rating the people that she knew as darker light spirits. And he's like, what the hell is going on? And at that

point, he decided to file for divorce. And he also removed Lori as the beneficiary of his $1 million life insurance policy after jumping through a bunch of hoops because he found out when he tried to remove her that Lori had changed the password on the life insurance website. So he had to call. He had to get it removed. And then Charles named his sister Kay as beneficiary, stating, quote, I want nothing to go to Lori or any member of her family, end quote. And eventually he and JJ would move to Houston, Texas to be closer to the Woodcocks. But first, let me talk about how Lori had gone dark, right? She like, she bounced for almost 60 days. She and Tylee had flown to Kauai on February 10th, which is, you know, obviously the escapist place to go for Lori and her family. And as soon as

they landed, Lori called her old friend, April Raymond, claiming that she'd caught Charles cheating. She was distraught. She had nowhere to go. Now, of course, April opened her home to Lori and Tylee. But then Lori started saying some bizarre things. She happily told April about all the ways she'd been torturing Charles, how she'd messed with his life, emptied his bank account, preventing his company from making payroll, changed the locks on his house, moved his truck just to mess with him, didn't tell him where his truck was for like three to four days. And April said, quote, she was laughing about it. I felt like she was almost baiting him so he would become enraged and she could have

proof to say, look how irate and out of control this guy is. It made me sick to my stomach, end quote, which is what narcissists do, by the way, exactly what they do. And Lori told April how Charles was a zombie, and she was expecting to get news any day now that he was dead. After a few days, Lori also told April that she was there to collect her because April was part of the 144,000. And Lori was like, you're chosen. I'm here to collect you. I'm in charge of this whole plan. And I'm here for you.

All you got to do is leave your children and come with me to Rexburg, where we're going to live in like tent cities and be saved. And April was like, I'm going to pass on that. I'm all set. But Lori kept going on and on about her beliefs and dark and light spirits. And eventually she told April that she and Tylee would be starting a new life in Hawaii when the divorce went through.

So she's not even being consistently, we're going to Rexburg to live in the tent cities, but also we're going to stay here and start a new life. So I almost feel like there was times when Lori was away from Chad long enough or away from like real life. And in Hawaii, there were times when she was like, I could just stay here, man, you know? Oh, because she had enough money too. I'm going to talk about that. But when April asked, what about JJ? Lori said she was done with JJ. She said that Charles and his sister Kay could figure it out. And not only did Lori flash $10,000 in cash to April, $10,000 in cash that she traveled with, but she also had a debit

card that was attached to the $80,000 she had reportedly received from Joe Ryan's life insurance. This was money that was supposed to have been for Tylee. Lori would pay for things like dinners, and then she would say, thanks, Joe, and laugh and talk about how Joe Ryan had finally done something right in his life. Lori would also use this money to rent a suite for herself and Tylee at the very expensive Kauai Beach Resort, which is where her and Chad would end up staying when they got married. And for the next month and a half, Tylee and Lori basically hopped around from island to island, just having a good time. They brought Melanie Gibb there for a little bit. You know, they were just like basically living a life of luxury on Charles Vallow's money and on Joe Ryan's money. On March 1st, 2019,

Charles Vallow, who had been trying to get a hold of Lori because he didn't, he legitimately just didn't know where she was. And he'd been sending Lori a picture of JJ every single day, not getting any response from her. He, for some reason, backed out of the divorce proceedings, claiming he wanted to find out if he and Lori could work things out. On March 9th, Charles emailed Lori, asking her to come home for his sake, for JJ's sake, reminding her that it had been 38 days without contact between them. Charles also mentioned how he had seen Lori's brother, Alex, and Alex was acting all crazy and making bizarre claims that Charles had tried to steal JJ and cheat on Lori

and put Lori in jail. And Charles wrote to Lori, quote, you and I both know it is ridiculous. You are my one and only for 14 years, period, end quote. A week and a half later, Charles emailed Lori again, telling her, listen, JJ's doing so well. He's getting some independence. He can take a bath on his own. He can wash his own hair and brush his own hair. He's getting into his PJs. And because JJ was autistic and had some learning disabilities, this was like very big stuff, stuff that Lori, the old Lori, would have at least pretended to be interested in, would have at least pretended to be happy about. But once again, he got no response. And once again, Charles keeps contacting Lori and he's like, please come home for JJ's sake, or at least

call JJ. He misses you so much. He has no idea what's going on. And if you just hear your voice and hear that you love him and that you're thinking of him, it would make him feel so much better. So around by mid to late March, Charles finally kind of like gave up. He told Lori he was like, I'm going to keep our house, our rented house in Arizona until the end of the month. And then JJ and I are going to move to Houston. And in fact, by the middle of March, Charles had already sent JJ to Louisiana and he was with the Woodcocks. And then Kay Woodcock came down to Arizona to help Charles pack up his belongings in the house because he was going to move to Houston, too. And then all of a sudden, Lori just like walks in the house.

She walks in the house in Arizona and the Kay Woodcock said Lori had like her phone open and she was recording as if Charles was going to like freak out or something. And when Lori walked in, Charles literally burst into tears seeing her. It's so sad. And Lori was kind of like combative at first. She had her phone open and she was like, oh, Charles, why have you kept JJ away from me? Why have you hurt me like this, this, this and that? And finally, Charles and Lori went into a different room to like talk. And then Kay Woodcock said that Lori came out and she was crying

and apologizing to Kay for all the things that had happened. And basically, Lori was like, oh, my God, I missed you so much. I miss being a family so much. I'm so sorry about all this. It was just a misunderstanding. And I feel so bad for Charles Valloman because he had been just doing the most, forgiving her for the most egregious things. And he'd actually been communicating with a friend of his for months about how heartbroken he was with how Lori was changing and telling this friend, like,

I can't believe how everything changed in my life. It just went to hell in a couple of months. And Lori is involved with this cult and, quote, the beautiful, sweet Lori that you and I knew is gone. I truly feel there's no good ending for her, end quote. But now Charles was messaging the same friend saying, we have our Lori back. It was all just a bunch of misunderstandings. And this friend is like, are you for real, dude? She emptied your bank account. She like moved your truck. She changed the locks. She tried to get you arrested. She's done been gone for 60 days. You had no idea where she was or what she was doing. You think

she's cheating on you with this Chad Daybell person. You're pretty sure she's in a cult. What are you talking about? A bunch of misunderstandings, right? Like Charles was head over heels in love with Lori for some reason. She must have. I don't know what she did for these people. I don't know. I've never seen anything like it. I mean, it's not that hard to believe, right? She had a lot of men in her life where she was able to kind of convince them or kind of find themselves in a situation where they were enamored by her.

I mean, even your buddy, the cop there, only a few minutes in the room with her and he was her best friend. Why are you being so dramatic? My buddy, the cop. Your buddy, the cop. Just because I gave you all the information and said in all fairness. Hey, if you happen to walk out before the search warrant signed. I know, I know.

We just can't arrest you right now. You wink, wink. Yeah, that's totally professional. It might take a while it might take a while to verify this what do you say whatever you choose to do i can't stop you i can't stop you and she's like okay i'm feeling if i turn my back and you happen to steal that gun there and run out the door i didn't see you take it he only had a month on the job though That's fine. We'll give him a pass. I know it is like a toxic trait of mine that like I will always take like the opposite like opinion or opposite stance to be like argumentative.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you're seeing that. But I also think it's healthy. Is it though? Yes. Is it? Because then you have two sides.

If we were just sitting here agreeing with each other all the time, it would be boring. What's the point? I'm going to start doing something where while we're recording, I'm going to like mute myself and I'm going to say on Instagram, like, hey, I'm about to go with this side. Guarantee you, Stephanie goes, I'm just going to start making shit up as I decide what side to go with. Well, now you just told me your evil plan. Good job.

So now I'm going to be prepared. She went the opposite. I'm going to be ready for it, man. I got you figured out. So at the beginning of April 2019, Charles, Lori, Tylee and JJ, all one big happy family again after like this literal hell of the past two months, they moved to Houston and they move into a new house on Harbor Sands Drive in Houston. But Lori just, she couldn't't she couldn't play the doting wife for very long. And I think she couldn't be far away from her cult for very long. Right. Because this would only last two months, at least for Lori, who would basically leave Charles again

and have him rent her a place in Chandler, Arizona, but basically leave him in Texas. And at this point, Charles is like, well, why don't we just get a divorce? And Lori was like, no, man, we are not getting a divorce. I done been divorced too many times. So we're gonna stay married, but I'm just gonna do whatever I want and live wherever I want, and you're gonna be okay with it.

And I guess that it was gonna work for a while. But before leaving for Texas initially, Lori gathered all of her friends in her cult to perform a casting that she said would remove the demon Garrett from Charles. Zulema Pastinas was there, and she remembers the casting well, saying, quote, she said that we had to be holding hands and in a circle, and each of the participants would have a different part to say or do in order to complete it, end quote. But after Garrett had been cast out, Lori told everyone that a new, more powerful demon named Ned

had taken over Charles. What a horrible name. Because Ned seems like, yeah, Ned seems like a super powerful demon name. Like, where did you get this name from? It's a great name for a demon, though. Not a great name for a demon at all. Ned the demon?

Ned, it's demonic. It's not. Ned's like an accountant. No, it's even worse. It's coming after your money for taxes. Tax preparer. Yeah. Oh, Ned's like an accountant. No, it's even worse. He's coming after your money for taxes. He's like a tax preparer. Yeah. Ah, Ned's calling again.

You're never picking up that call if Ned's calling. Freaking Ned. This powerful demon. Each time they cast a demon out of Charles, a new one would take root. It was also around this time that Laurie told her niece Melanie that Melanie's husband, Brandon, had an evil spirit in him. And that in his past life, Brandon had been an upper-ranking Nazi, of all things. By the following summer, all hell had broken loose. Lori's niece Melanie was going through a divorce and a custody battle with her husband Brandon. Melanie Gibb was going through a divorce from her husband Clifford, and Charles had discovered evidence that Lori and Chad Daybell were having an affair. Lori had also enlisted the help of her friends in the cult, who all thought

by this point that they had special spiritual powers, to target their spiritual energy towards Charles Vallow and take him out. Because according to Lori now, Charles's death was a part of the plan that would usher in the second coming. So when they were talking about Charles over text, they would use the code name Hiplos. And on June 3rd, Lori texted out, quote, just got home and got JJ to sleep. Let's go spiritually tonight and work on him. We give the timing to the Lord, but we don't need to relent. This is war, end quote. On June 29th, Charles told Lori's brother, Adam, that he knew Lori was having an affair with Chad Daybell because he'd found some things told Lori's brother, Adam, that he knew Lori was having an affair with Chad Daybell

because he'd found some things on Lori's computer, specifically an email that had been sent from an account under the name Karen Walker. The email was bizarre because it was addressed to Chad Daybell, but it was signed Charles Vallow and Charles knew he had not written the email. So the email read, quote, Hello, Chad. I hope you're doing well. This is Charles Vallow from Arizona. We really enjoyed having you stay with us back in November when you came to preparing a people conference. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about the book I've been working on. Well, more than six months later, I still haven't made much progress on it, but I feel an urgency to get it done. So I will cut to the chase. I'm willing to pay you well to help get my book into shape as my ghostwriter. I really liked your autobiography and the tone you took in sharing experiences

without preaching. Is there any way you can come here for a couple of days and help me get the book underway? I feel like talking in person would be much more valuable than a phone call or video chat, mainly because I would like you to read through some of my journals and explain to me how the publishing industry works. It would help me to know whether I truly have a book in me and whether you want to team up on it. I'm out of town until Saturday, but I would gladly fly you down early next week before the holiday and cover your expenses. You can stay in our guest room like before or a hotel if you prefer. I hate to take you away from your family, but I know this book is vital to my speaking success. I understand if you don't want to take part in the project, but I would definitely make it worth your time. With admiration, Charles."

So Lori and Chad did this a lot. Basically, Chad's still married, right? He's married to Tammy, and he's got a bunch of kids. And he's got to have a reason of why he's constantly leaving and traveling all over to give to Tammy. So Zulema Pastinas would always be like writing to Chad and being like, oh, Chad, we need you to come speak or we need you to do this. And we're going to pay you and we're going to fly you down and sending him emails and stuff that Chad would then show his wife Tammy and be like, they need me. And don't worry, it's not going to cost me anything. They're paying for everything. So on March 1st, for instance, there was a plane ticket bought for Chad out of Lori Vallow's bank account. She's basically paying to fly him to Arizona. And Tammy thinks he's going there for work, but he's really going there to, you know, get it in with Lori, basically, and to have these fireside chats and swing his little owl necklace around. So Charles sees this email and he's like, what the hell is going on?

I don't know this dude. And I definitely didn't write this email. And so he immediately texted Lori and he's like, what's this about? And Lori was like, I have no idea where this email came from. And so Charles texted her back, quote, it's a fraud and a lie. There's no other reason for it other than to get him to Arizona and have an excuse for his wife. You did this. I had nothing to do with it. And you know it. Also, he did not stay with us in November. I will find out. End quote. He didn't stay with you, Charles, but he did stay with Lori while you were out of town. Yeah, he was there.

So that's actually accurate. That part of the email is accurate. So Charles also forwarded this weird email to Adam Cox, Lori's brother, the one who's not crazy like Alex. And Charles wrote, quote, I'm not sure of the relationship with Chad Daybell, but they are up to something. She created an email alias for me as I've never set this one up. She sent this yesterday and I guess she forgot all her emails are on the computer at my house. I asked her to explain and she started blaming you, Brandon, and me for perpetuating a scheme against her. End quote. I can't believe that Charles is still at this point being like, I don't know what's going on between them, but something's happening. They're sleeping together, man. Sleeping together. He wanted so badly to believe that Lori was still a good person, even though she was off her rocker. Charles then sent a message to Lori and he said, listen, if you don't explain to me exactly what's going on,

okay, exactly what's going on, I'm going to tell Tammy Daybell. I'm going to tell her what's going on with you guys. I don't know exactly what's going on, but I'm going to tell her something's going on. And Lori responded, oh, go for it. Tammy won't believe you because me and her are friends. This is not true. And Charles didn't buy it. Tammy and Lori have never met, have never spoken. And in fact, Lori's going around telling people that Tammy's inhabited by an evil spirit. I'm not surprised by that one. Yeah. Yeah.

Tammy's inhabited by an evil spirit. And I think it's named like Judith or something. I can't forget it. It really doesn't matter. It's neither here nor there. But Tammy's inhabited by an evil spirit and she's a zombie too. So they are not friends. The next day, Charles sent another message to Lori.

And he said, listen, I know you don't care, but I still need to tell you how I feel. I'm crushed. I'm destroyed. I've never felt so low in my life. Like you financially destroyed me. You've broken my heart. You owe me an apology. And a few months before

this, Charles had discovered some videos of Lori dancing. You know how she likes to dance alone? Yeah. To her music. And she'd sent Chad these videos, which I guess were like a little maybe, you know, risque. And so Charles texted Chad Daybell as well. And he asked him, quote, does your wife know that you have several of Lori's dance videos? Explain how this is in any way appropriate. End quote. Chad never responded, obviously. So Charles did send Tammy Daybell two emails, one to her work email, one to her personal email.

On July 1st, 2019, Charles told Lori that he was going to fly to Idaho and tell Tammy in person about the affair. At this point, it's likely, more than likely, that Chad and Lori began to panic, right? Because Charles is a nuisance now, right? Yeah, he's a problem. He's a liability. Lori had not been the only one telling people that her husband was about to be dead. Chad was also telling people that his wife was about to be dead. At the end of January, Chad had told author Julie Rowe that he'd had a dream that his wife Tammy was going to die soon.

And Julie, apparently, after she gets done defending Chad for a couple of months and she finally comes out and she starts like talking shit about him. She's like, oh, I told him you can't be doing this. You're using like these visions for your own benefit. And you told me that I was your wife in a past life. And she's getting all like triggered by it. But who knows how the conversation actually went. I don't really believe Julie Roe all that much, if I'm being honest. So now having Charles and Tammy come together and find out about like the secret love affair their spouses had been having for months, that would be the last thing they wanted. Because to be honest, they both wanted their spouses dead, but they also wanted to still be married to their spouses when they died because

they wanted what? The life insurance. The life insurance. So it wasn't like, you know, Lori's over here like, Charles, no, I'm not getting a divorce, man. I'm not getting a divorce. I've had too many divorces. I don't need another one. She's like, I know you're going to be dead soon and I want your life insurance. It's funny when Lori finds out that Charles removed her as beneficiary. Yeah, saying, gotcha. But yeah, they don't want this happening because it's going to ruin their grand plans. So on July 9th, 2019, Lori texted her brother Alex saying, quote, I'm going to need you to stay close to me for the next couple of days.

I need to come get the stuff at your house tomorrow and secure it. It's all coming to a head this weekend. I will be like Nefi, I am told, and so will you, end quote. According to the LDS religion, Nefi is a Book of Mormon prophet who slayed a wicked man named Laban so that Nephi could get scriptures for his people. And Nephi didn't necessarily want to kill Laban, but he had been instructed by God to do so. And then two days later, after Laurie sends Alex this task saying like, everything's coming to a head, stay close to me. Charles Vallow would be dead, shot twice in the chest by Laurie's brother and protector, Alex Cox. With Alex Cox, now,

there was someone who DM'd me, and I think I sent it to you as well, but was there evidence that he had some head injury or something like that that could have contributed to how, I don't know, I want to put it, but malleable he was as far as the willingness to do these types of things? Not giving him an excuse or anything, but was there any evidence of that? So Alex's sister, Summer, said that when he was 16, he was in a car accident and he had some like head injury. That's the only evidence of this alleged car accident and head injury that is really out there. There's no like medical reports as far as I know. Honestly, I think it's possible, but from all accounts, Alex was always kind of creepy and always kind of off, you know, even before the age of 16.

So does it have something to do with it? Maybe. Does it matter? I don't think so. No, no, not really. I mean, overall, I think we're starting to build. I go back and forth throughout these episodes where I'm like, who's the one running the show? And I really don't know at this point.

I really don't know. There's points during the story where I'm convinced it's Chad based on his religious background and the fact that Lori kind of came into it. And I think she came into it because she wanted to meet Chad. But then I also hear things that you're talking about later in this episode, where it sounds like Lori's running the show and that maybe Lori was taking the initiative on the, on the, on the murder of Charles Vallow. And even more to that point, she enlisted the help of her brother to execute it. If, if Chad's really the one running the show, wouldn't he have taken more an initiative in it i guess the argument could be made that that's his power where he went through laurie who then

went through alex so to create some levels of separation between him and charles valo obviously very possible but overall i mean maybe we're going to come to the conclusion on this that it was a it was a perfect pairing between the two of them. They both fed off of each other. And there were moments where Lori was the head of the snake and moments where Chad was, and depending on who was trying to get something out of it, that individual took the reins and was kind of guiding, you know, guiding the ship as far as where they, where they wanted to go and how they utilized their religious beliefs to carry out

whatever they needed to be done for their own personal self-serving reasons. In this case, it was a kind of a combination. Charles Vallow was a hindrance to both of them, right? Lori wanted the insurance money. And at this point, Chad's now getting nervous that Charles is going to go to his wife and expose him. So there's benefits to both of them to, there was motive for both of them. So it really does sound like these two were meant for each other in a lot of ways as weird, as stupid as that sounds,

but it does sound like they were like the perfect pairing and what they both were trying to go after, which in my opinion, up to this point in the series was power, right? They wanted, they wanted power and they, and they use this religion to get that, to, to create this gathering. And I feel like Lori was using Chad to get there. And then once she did, she was using that power

that she had garnered through maybe Chad's influence to carry out her own doings, like things that she wanted to get done for her own self-serving reasons. So it's interesting, but I don't know. I know you feel a little different about it or maybe you don't. I don't know. I mean, at this point, like I agree. I don't, I don't know what to make of it. I don't know what to make of it, but I do think my, my opinion stands. Lori was the stronger personality. And so in the end, I think she was leading the whole thing. Just like Chad used his religion to justify the things he was saying, she used Chad and his religion to justify the things that they would do. So everyone's using something, but who's using Lori? No one is using Lori. No one ever uses Lori. She always uses people.

So at the end of the day, that's the way I look at it, that everyone's getting used and everything. There's always a scapegoat, but it's never Lori. I will say this. Before we started covering it, I was under the impression that Chad was just a pawn in Laurie's game. And you may be right if we were to put percentages on it as far as who was the actual leader. But I am thoroughly convinced now that we've covered a good portion of this case that Chad was more involved than I initially thought. I thought he was just kind of like a conduit to Lori's madness, right? Like he was just a means to an end.

Now I feel like there were things that he wanted to do because he wanted to do them. And it wasn't necessarily because he was being manipulated. There were things that were advantageous to him that he was using this religion to kind of cover those things as something that was for the religion and not necessarily for himself. So I will agree with you there. I think Chad got in over his head, though. And you'll see like later when they're in Hawaii and the press is hounding them and the police are like arresting them. Lori is super calm. She's like smiling. She's being like pretentious and

condescending. You know, like the reporter's like, where's your kids, Lori? And she's like, no comment. And Chad looks extremely uncomfortable. He's like, how the hell did I get here? So I think he kind of like let everything get away with him and then he's like in this like hell storm not the storm that is his penis but an actual storm of his own creation the chaos that he and laurie caused and then all of a sudden he was like holy shit i i don't know how we got i didn't know coming back from this one yeah she seems completely at ease with the whole situation and he seems very like like he's just woken up from a coma right like he's just woken up from a coma, right? Like he's just woken up

and he has no idea where he is, what year it is. Like, how long have I been in this coma? He's got a full beard. You know, I'm just kidding. But like, kind of like that. It's like he woke up and he's like, oh, this is not good.

You know? Yeah. So I will say that. Too late now, buddy. Yeah, I think she let it. I think he was a willing participant, though. Yeah, we'll have to wait and dial below. Let us know what you guys think in the comments.

Yeah, so far. How are you guys feeling about this? Just trying to figure out here, because I know Lori Vallow is the one that I've heard so much about, just being someone who is looking out on this from a surface level. And I wonder if I'm the only one who has a difference of opinion on this case now, after hearing the specifics of it and hearing a little bit more about Chad Daybell's background and how they were, you know, initially, like I said, with Charles Vallow, I was like, oh, easy. They, you know, they, Lori had him killed because life insurance done. Well, no. Now, when you fill in a little bit of the blank tonight,

Charles was starting to impede on Chad Daybell's life as well. There was motive for him to get this done as well. It wasn't just solely beneficial for Lori. So again, I want to hear what you guys have to say. What are you guys thinking about this case so far? Where do you think the blame lies? Give your opinions on it. We definitely want to hear them.

And I don't know if there's anything else. I think we pretty much about two hours in, right? About two hours in here. I'm not going to even ask you how many parts because you're not going to tell me. So we'll just keep rolling with it. I know there's going to be another part. We're not at the end yet, obviously.

So any final words from you before we roll out? No, I think I've said, well, wait, what I've got to say, it's one o'clock in the morning. I haven't eaten. So I'm going to have a cheese steak and pass out. Cheese steak and pass out. Cheese steak sounds great right now. Cheese steak, not steak. I'm not eating a cheese steak at one o'clock in the morning. I mean, wouldn't be a bad time. Wouldn't be a bad time. I'd have to be pretty like drunk and high for that to be like an acceptable thing at one o'clock in the morning. It's the 20th right now.

When you guys just see this, it's going to be a lot further. It's actually the 19th right now. But we'll have an update probably next episode on K-Cups. They're in the manufacturing process now. They still got to get some time to get back here. But I know a lot of you've been emailing me about it. We'll get back to you on it. I know there's some people who have subscriptions to it.

You will be the first one to receive it when it comes in. So just, just hang with me a little bit longer. This will hopefully never be the situation again, because it's because of you, it's sold so quickly that the process of getting them redone, because we don't have a K-cup facility in our, you know, in our warehouse, we have to outsource it. So it takes a little bit longer and we're going to another state so it's a whole it's a nightmare i won't even lie to you guys it's a nightmare but i worked out the logistics now and hopefully going forward we won't have this problem anymore but as always appreciate you joining us here like comment subscribe on the video if you're watching if you're listening on

audio five star review and a comment if you're on spotify just leave the review they don't have i'll leave the leave the stars they don have reviews. We appreciate you joining us. Everyone stay safe out there. We will see you next week. Bye.