Crime Weekly - S3 Ep132: The Daybell Doomsday Cult Murders: A Man of God or Not? (Part 6)

Episode Date: July 7, 2023

JJ Vallow didn’t have the best start in life. Both of his parents struggled with drug addiction, and so when he was born premature in May of 2012, JJ was also addicted to drugs and it took months for doctors to safely wean him off the substances that had been coursing through his little body. But shortly before his first birthday, JJ was adopted by his uncle, Charles Vallow, and Charles’ pretty young wife, Lori Vallow, who had two children of her own, a son named Colby and a daughter named Tylee. Tylee and JJ hit it off immediately, and Tylee became a best friend and mini mother to her younger half brother. It seemed like JJ and Tylee were a part of one big happy family, so when they both vanished in September of 2019, and their normally attentive and loving mother Lori didn’t seem overly concerned about the fact that two of her children were missing, people started asking questions. But no one could have prepared for the answers we would get. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. MagellanTV Claim your SPECIAL OFFER for MagellanTV here: https://try.magellantv.com/crimeweekly. Start your free trial TODAY so you can watch James Bulger: The New Revelations, and all of MagellanTV’s other exclusive true crime content: https://www.magellantv.com/video/james-bulger-the-new-revelations 2. Skims The Fits Everybody collection and more perfect-fit essentials are available now at www.SKIMS.com. Plus, get free shipping on orders over seventy five dollars! After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you! Select "podcast" in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. 3. IQ Bar To get your 20% off, just text WEEKLY to 64000. Get your discount. 4. Vessi Head to vessi.com/CRIMEWEEKLY and get yourself a pair today.  

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K-Cups are in stock. Yeah, they are. Stephanie is, I'll tell you what, man, you're great. You're great. Yeah, we'll just get it right out of the way. I was like, hey, Stephanie, can you just mention that K-Cups are in stock? She got all confused, all confused, all concerned. So what would you like to tell them? I was like, wait, what? And he's like, I always say it, you say it.

And I was like, what? And he goes, just say K-Cups are in stock. K-Cups are in stock. Guys only know, man. Derek, tell say K-Cups are in stock. K-Cups are in stock. Guys only know, man. Derek, tell them about it. They're in stock. Not only am I packing them, but I'm also promoting them. I'm doing it all.

Oh my God. Yeah, I owe you that one. Who better to do it than you? No, nobody better. So we mentioned on Crime Weekly News, they are in stock. They should be here for a little bit, but don't lock me in on that. We ordered more than we did the last time. They went in like a week.

I don't know if that'll be the case this time, but if you want to make sure you get your cake ups, if you hadn't had an opportunity to try them yet, I would order them as soon as possible. When we're recording this, it's Monday, tomorrow's 4th of July. So we posted on social media. The first batch already went out. So if you're someone who wants to be notified as soon as we have them, make sure you're following us on social media,

but more importantly, make sure you sign up for the free newsletter on criminalcoffeeco.com. We have some updates once in a while about the characters. We have updates about our products, about the merch. There's also some codes in there sometimes. And we just give some updates also on the Preble Penny case or any other case that we donate to. That's the people who will get it first. So if you want to check it out, just head on over to criminalcoffeeco.com. K-Cups, regular ground bags, whole bean, we got it all. Check it out. It's all in stock. Get your merch. Yeah, that's all I got. Okay. Well, shall we dive in? You did great. You did great. Thank you. I'm really proud. I'm really proud. I did exactly what you told me to do. You did. You did exactly. If only that

were the case all the time. I can follow directions pretty well when I'm feeling willing to. I'm so glad you said that last part, when you want to. Isn't that when everybody does things when they want to? No. If not, they should. If you're not living that way, you should be. Try that at work. You should only do things when you want to, and you should not hang out with people who you don't like. That is accurate. But yeah, if you're at work and your boss says,

hey, would you mind moving those boxes over to the other side of the room? And you say, no, I don't feel like it. I don't know if that's going to go that way. Is it your job to move boxes, or is your boss asking you to do something that's not your job? That's a whole deeper conversation. I mean, exactly. There's context to go that well. Is it your job to move boxes or is your boss asking you to do something that's not your job? That's a whole deeper conversation. I mean, exactly. There's context here that you're just leaving out.

So don't ever do anything you don't want. Okay. And don't go to any family gatherings or holidays that you don't want to go to just because you feel obligated. Life's too short. Can we just put a disclaimer on this episode that you're in a really bad mood? I'm not in a bad mood. Oh, my God. Yes, you are.

I'm in a melancholy mood. Yeah. It's different. It's not bad bad mood. Oh my God. Yes, you are. I'm in a melancholy mood. It's different. It's not bad. No. It's sad. Yeah. But I'll feel better soon. Okay. Okay. Let's talk about Chad and Lori and the storm. That always makes me feel better. Yeah, that's going to make us feel great. Yeah. Making fun of Chad is really actually like a dopamine to me. So, however, I will say we're not going to talk about Chad right away because to open up today's episode, we're going to leave Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell behind for a little while, and we're going to focus on another couple. And that couple is

Lori's niece, Melanie, and her first husband, Brandon Boudreaux. So we need to go all the way back to part one of this series and remember that Melanie was the daughter of Lori's sister, Stacey Cox. Do you remember Stacey? She died. She passed away on May 21st, 1998, the age of 31. And she was the one before her death. She struggled with physical and mental health issues. She had diabetes that she wasn't managing. She was going through a terrible divorce. She'd lost custody of her then six-year-old daughter, who was Melanie. And kind of remember the stuff that Melanie was going through that Melanie's father had to talk about in the custody paperwork, where he was like, Melanie's basically taking care of her mother. Melanie's not getting fed correctly. She's become the caretaker for her mother and just this really traumatic stuff for a young girl to go through.

Well, no one could have predicted that Melanie would follow in her mother's footsteps in a way because in summer of 2019, Brandon Boudreau was a happy man in a happy marriage, or at least he thought he was in a happy marriage. But then his wife began spending a lot more time with her aunt, Lori Vallow, and Lori's cult. Brandon said that Melanie started attending meetings that she and Lori called firesides, and these meetings were not sponsored by the church, and Melanie had made it very clear to her husband that these firesides were like her thing, and he was not welcome to attend. After this, Melanie began developing different ideas about what it meant to be a faithful member of the church.

And she felt the need to go to temple every single day, when previously Brandon had almost had to force Melanie to go to temple at all. Even when they went on a family trip to Disneyland, Melanie needed to attend the temple. And she was very focused on the idea that the world was going to end soon. In fact, she and Brandon had, you know, right before their divorce, gotten into a big argument because she had spent $10,000 on food that she put in storage because she truly believed that the end was right around the corner. All of this was bizarre and a little strange, but Brandon still felt that Melanie loved him and their kids, and he felt that

they had, you know, good marriage. But in 2019, things got even more bizarre when the issues between Lori and Charles Vallow reached a fever point. The following June, Brandon and Melanie brought their four kids to Utah to stay with Melanie's parents. But while they were there, Brandon's grandfather died suddenly from a heart attack. And Melanie, she kind of just was over it. She refused to go to the funeral. She said she didn't want anything to do with it. had a revelation from God, which, you know, I guess God told her that Brandon was gay and she didn't feel safe with him in the house. I don't know necessarily if that's because she thought he was gay or because, you know, there was some violence happening or that she thought was happening or that she would allege was happening. But either way, she was like, God told me that you're gay and I don't feel safe with you here. And then out of nowhere,

on June 1st, 2019, Melanie blindsided Brandon when she told him she was filing for divorce. Now, the couple initially used a mediator to attempt to settle their split with the least amount of conflict. Brandon moved out of the family home, leaving Melanie there with the kids. He began renting a place in Chandler, Arizona, and he tried to get through how difficult Melanie was basically making everything. She was making custody with the kids very, very hard. Just everything about doing anything with her just became impossible. And based on the way Melanie was speaking about her new beliefs, based on the fact that Lori Vallow's two children had gone missing and no one knew where they were, Brandon was in fear for the safety of his children. And so he would

eventually end up fighting Melanie for custody, which she did not like. Now let's talk for a minute about what Uncle Alex Cox has been up to since arriving in Rexburg and since carrying out the murders of his niece, Tylee, and nephew, JJ. Between August 10th and October 24th, 2019, Alex purchased 46 guns, and he was spending a lot of time at the shooting range. We already know that just before Tylee's disappearance, Lori had texted her brother and told him to get his time in on the shooting range because they were working on taking out zombies. On September 24th, 2019, Lori herself visited the gun shop in Idaho Falls and photographed boxes of 5.56 rifle ammunition. The following day, Alex went to Walmart and bought a prepaid burner phone in cash. On September 26th, 27th, and 28th, Alex was at the gun range for several hours at a time

practicing his shooting. And Alex visited Dan's window tinting in Rexburg once on September 23rd for just five minutes and twice on September 25th. Now this is gonna become important because we're gonna find out a vehicle that's used in an attempted murder has its windows tinted where it previously didn't. And so if I'm looking at this, and it's never explicitly said, but if I'm looking at Alex visiting Dan's window tinting, he goes there once on September 23rd for just a couple of minutes, which is probably him saying like, oh, hey, how much does this cost? How long does it take? Et cetera. And then on September 25th, he goes there twice to drop off the car

and then to pick it back up when it's done with the window tinting. I don't know how long window tinting takes. It can take literally like 30 minutes. Right. Depending on how many windows it does. You could do it the same day. Oh, if it's not done the same day, it's weird. Like I've had my entire vehicle front, you know, except the front window tinted in a couple hours. It doesn't take long. The rifle rounds, that was interesting with Lori, huh? I mean, I know it's used in other firearms, but the reason 5.56 and also 2.23, which is a similar round, it's just different, slightly different. The reason that you probably have heard of that before is it's commonly found in ar-15s that's

which that's the common round in those rifles depending on what depending on what brand you buy some some use five five six some use two two three but it's it's a high projectile it's a high speed round far distance very short period of time very accurate and would you call it almost like a sniper kind of thing like you could kind of get a high accuracy shot from not not super close so no uh so with a sniper round you're looking for like you see like a 308 or a 65 creedmoor or a win mag 300. Those are sniper rifle rounds. 5.56 is accurate up to about three. It depends on the person, obviously, and the optics they have on it. But accurate up to probably, we would train 100 to 300 yards. These ones, these 5.56.

Yeah, 5.56. I love when you say it that way. 5.56. 5.56. 5.56. 5.56. 5.56. I love when you say it that way. 5.56. 5.56. 5.56. 5.56. 5.56. So, yeah, you could go about 300 yards.

Like, for qualifications, you have to basically hit a post-it up to, like, 300 yards. That's actually good to know, yeah. You could hit someone from far distances away with it, but if you're, like, sniper rifle, like, I have a six, five Creedmoor sniper rifle. I, that can shoot up to almost a mile away. If it's clear.

That's that's how crazy. And that's not even the most powerful. There's guns that can shoot even further depending on the size of the round. But, um, you wouldn't necessarily want this for like long distance accuracy. But if you're purchasing something where you're going to fire a lot of rounds in a short period of time and, and, and you do need some length on it, yeah, the rifle,

the 5.56 is a good round. Okay. That's actually going to be good to know. And we're going to talk about that in a minute. I'm sure you'll have something to say. On October 1st, 2019, Lori Vallow rented a 10 by 10 storage unit at Self Storage Plus on Airport Road in Rexburg, Idaho. She was assigned unit C-52, and she put this unit under the name Lori Ryan. Over the next two days, Lori would visit this storage unit often, at least half a dozen times, usually with her brother Alex Cox and her lover, The Storm, aka Chad Daybell. That same day, Alex parked Tylee Ryan's gray 2018 Jeep Wrangler in the driveway of his apartment, and he removed the spare tire from the back. He also removed one of the back car seats, and he left both of these things in his garage at his apartment. Lori and Chad would swing

by later. They would pick these two things up, and then they would put them in the storage unit. After removing the items from Tylee's Jeep, Alex took one of his rifles. He took some ammunition and a silencer and he drove south 13 hours to Gilbert, Arizona and parked outside the rented house of Brandon Boudreau and he waited. The next morning, October 2nd, Brandon got up and got his kids ready for the day. He would drop two of his kids off at school. One went to daycare and one went to the home that he had previously shared with Melanie. After dropping them all off, Brandon went to the gym and returned home around 9.14 a.m. and that was when he recognized this Jeep that was still parked across the street from his house. It was a Jeep with Texas plates.

He recognized it as the vehicle that Tylee Ryan had driven before vanishing. But Brandon also noticed that the windows on this Jeep were tinted when the windows on Tylee's Jeep had not been. And as he was sort of contemplating this, Brandon saw a gun with a silencer on it slide out the back window of the Jeep. And before he knew what was happening, he heard the ring of a gunshot in the window of his Tesla shattered. So Brandon's like, I'm out of here. He jammed on the gas of his car. He sped away. He called 911 as he drove away.

And he said the Jeep proceeded to follow him, but then kind of continued on and didn't continue to follow him. Now, during the time directly before, during, and after this shooting, Alex Cox was in constant contact with Chad Daybell using one of his burner phones. I think Alex had something like six or five burner phones. Chad had like eight. Lori had six. It was just ludicrous. He also called and texted his sister Lori several times. As Alex drove away from the scene of his crime, he called Chad Daybell twice. Alex and the Jeep were back in

Rexburg by 4.30 a.m. on October 3rd, and a few hours later, Alex and Lori can be seen on surveillance at the storage unit, removing the spare tire and the car seat and putting them back into the Jeep. That same day, Lori Vallow searched online for man shot in Gilbert, Arizona and man shot in Gilbert, Arizona 10 to 2019. Probably suggestive of something, right? Unless you're Jose Baez. Unless you're trying to be Jose Baez. I don't even think Jose Baez could help Alex Cox, man. Probably not. Well, it's clear that they tried to take out Brandon Boudreaux, right? Clearly. Yeah, no doubt.

And we're going to talk more about that. But after this attempt on his life, Brandon took his four kids and he basically went into hiding because he was sure that the person who had tried to shoot him was affiliated with Lori Vallow and his ex-wife, Melanie, and their cult. And he kind of suspected it was Alex Cox right from the get because everyone knew Alex was considered to be the protector and Alex would always have Lori's back and Alex would do anything. So he suspected it was Alex. But he was also sure that his ex-wife Melanie had given the cult his address since she was only one of five people who knew it. The rest of the people who knew it were his parents and a couple of neighbors who had helped

him move. And he was legally required to give Melanie this address because they were sharing custody with the kids. And then all of a sudden, he's getting shot at. Yeah, no, I think there's something there. And obviously, he's probably right. The person close to him, those are the people you got to watch out for because if they turn on you, it's game over. They know all your secrets is specifically where you live. And that can leave you very, very vulnerable. Especially if they're in a cult. Especially if they're a part of a group of individuals that will have a similar belief and will go to great lengths to protect that belief from anyone who has a dissenting opinion on it. The church of the firstborn. It could be standing in the way of what they want to accomplish. Absolutely.

Well, listen, I've always wondered, right? And this is just allegedly, somebody was in that vehicle with Alex Cox, okay? Because he can't be in the back, you know, with his like gun shooting out the window and then he can still pursue Brandon when Brandon like puts the car into drive or reverse and gets the hell out of there, right? That would take a lot more. You'd have to like put the gun down, like put the safety on, jump into the driver's seat, start the car. And then by then Brandon's gone because he's speeding away because someone just shot at him. He's not like taking a Sunday morning drive. So there, in my opinion, has to be a getaway driver.

Who was it? Was it Melanie Boudreaux? Just my speculation because you're going to find out that the cops talked to her and she can't really say where she was at. Yeah, I think you're onto something there. I'm trying to play devil's advocate as far as like, could he have done it alone? But you had said that you could visibly, you could, or he could see the silencer come out of the back window. Right. So in that sense, I mean, could he, if he was in the driver's seat, turn around and shoot out that back? Of course he could. But according to Brandon, he's seen the,

either the silencer or the barrel of that firearm come out the back window. And so unless he's got like super long arms, it would be very difficult to do that. And I would say this isn't like a pistol where you just you want to be accurate and you don't want the thing to go all over the place, cause it does have a little kickback. Um, it's very difficult to shoot that gun with one arm. And if you're, if, if it's, if we're to believe that it was a rifle, which it seems like it was, it was, it's something that you would more than likely need two hands to do so, which kind of takes out the possibility that he was still in the driver's seat when he fired the firearm, if he's the one who fired the firearm. So I'm with you. Yeah. If not Melanie, more than likely somebody else was with him. Yeah. I just don't know who, but basically what it seems like is Alex though, like he spends a lot of time at the range, but he's not that good of a shot. All right.

They usually are. Honestly, when you, we have a lot of crimes that we've investigated over the years where it's like a shootout or it's like a drive by and the victim is seven feet from the car and you'll have four guys in the car passing by. They all got a gun. They all take six to seven rounds and they missed the guy completely. It's like like there is a big difference. That's why you see a lot of times in shootouts where there's a shooter there and then police arrive within a matter of seconds during that shootout. The police take the guy out because there's no substitute for that training experience unless you're an avid hunter or something like that. But a lot of these people who have these guns on the road right now, on the street, are not training all the time with it or training. You can shoot all the time. It doesn't mean you're training in a way that's going to make you more proficient if you don't know the basics of it. So yeah, that doesn't surprise me one bit that you have someone who thinks because they shoot a lot that they're a good shot. That's a very common thing in investigations, something we find as far as

the suspects or even when victims return fire, they usually miss. They're usually not very good shots. And I think you can be a fine shot in like a controlled environment, but when you're like in the field, you know, and there's like stress and you're worried about getting caught and you're worried about like messing up and you're like, I'm shooting at a real person here, you know? So I think that that kind of probably adds some issues with your aim. You're wrong. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Montgomery County is asking property owners and landscapers to rethink how they do yard care to protect air quality and worker health as well as reduce noise gas powered leaf blowers are banned in montgomery county after

july 1st 2025 get an early start and plan now to invest in electric leaf blowers or grab a rake local retailers have resources and battery leaf blowers Visit montgomerycountymd.gov slash leaf blowers for more information. Okay, so the police spoke to Melanie the day after the incident and she denied knowing anything about the shooting, but she could also not give a valid alibi for what she had been doing at the time that it happened. Melanie also refused to give the police phone numbers for Lori or Chad. She told them that she believed all of their phones were being tracked and that their conversations were being listened to. More on Melanie in a minute. So on October 5th, Chad Daybell texted Lori that he had big news. Big news about his wife, Tammy Daybell. He said, quote, short version is that she's been switched.

Tammy is in limbo and a level three demonic entity named Viola is in her body. Viola has been attached for about a year to my niece. The personality differences from Tammy should be evident quickly. Please seek a confirmation on this, but I have checked three times since I've been home, end quote. Chad followed this up with another text saying, quote, not fully sure of the timing for removal, but once her actions verify the differences, I don't want to wait, end quote. So if I was somebody who's trying to decipher this text between Chad and Lori, I would say that he's talking about Tammy and about her being dead when he says not fully sure of the timing for removal, but once her actions verify the differences,

I don't want to wait. Basically, she's possessed. And like, I don't know when we can remove her. But like ASAP would be great for me. It's tough because, yes, on the surface, that's what it sounds like to me as well. I'm with you. But I hate to say it, but like these religious kooks, man,

I don't know what that means as far as like when we can remove her. Does that mean when the demon's going to leave her body or whatever? I don't know. that means as far as like when we can remove her does that mean when the demon's gonna leave her body or whatever i don't know but yeah i mean from a pragmatic remember like to get the demon out you have to like kill the person kill them yeah they have to die they have to die not kill they have to they have to expire they have to move on they have to move on yeah so i'm with you i mean that's what it sounds like to me just objectively looking at it i don't know how many other ways. There's only two different things you could be looking at. Either that's them killing the person or they're going to

perform some type of exorcism. Or both. Or both. Yeah. So on October 7th, Alex Cox spent a lot of time at the shooting range because apparently he missed when he shot at Brandon. So we need some more practice. He also visited two different gun ranges the following day. And then on October 8th, Alex purchased another burner phone from Walmart, but he didn't activate it until 1.20 PM on October 9th. So on October 9th, Chad Daybell's wife, Tammy, called the police and reported that she had just been shot at in her driveway by a masked man, and she thought that this masked man who's dressed all in black was shooting at her with a paintball gun. Emmy described her

experience on Facebook saying, quote, okay, neighbors, something really weird just happened, and I want you to know so you can watch out. I had gotten home and parked in our front driveway. As I was getting stuff out of the back seat, a guy wearing a ski mask was suddenly standing by End quote. Chad is the last person you want to yell for. The freezer meals would have been a better ally. Unfortunately, she didn't know that. And Tammy Daybell reported the incident to the Fremont County Sheriff's Office, who for some reason believed it was a prank by some neighborhood children. And once again, a cell phone used by Alex Cox was detected near the Daybell home at the time of this incident, and many text messages and calls happened between Alex and Chad Daybell before the attempted shooting. Idaho Attorney General Investigator Nicholas Edwards said that it would be easy for Tammy to confuse a paintball gun with a Grendel

AR, which is the weapon that Alex is believed to have used on both Brandon and Tammy. Edwards said, quote, they are very similar in platform. The base of the gun looks similar to paintball and could be mistaken for a scope. They could be mistaken by someone who doesn't have experience, end quote. The FBI has since discovered that on the day that Tammy Daybell was shot at, Alex Cox researched Grendel ARs and their efficiency in hitting a target from 100 to 300 feet. And as you kind of said earlier, 300 yards is pretty much a good, you know, distance accuracy wise. And he was trying to figure out, you know, how accurate it would be to hit a target from 100 to 300 feet. But he also looked into how much firepower it would take to shoot up a Dodge Dakota,

like how thick was the door on a Dodge Dakota, which just so happened to be the vehicle that Tammy Daybell was driving. And by the way, 100 to 300 feet for that rifle, I could teach you to shoot that in a day. You assume I don't already know how to shoot guns. I've never in the two years I've known you seen or had a conversation with you where you mentioned- We've always talked about that. We've talked about guns, but you've never said like, yeah, I went to the range today

and practiced with my rifle. No, I do. I go to the range and I'm a great shot. We'll have to play sometime. Oh, play sometime. Right there, you're not a great shot if you're saying let's play sometime. I know. It's not real. It's not real. I'm sure I'm not, but I could be. Well, I'm no Alex Cox, but I mean. Yeah. I'm confident in saying that Alex Cox is not trained either. And that's why one 300 feet is not much but we shoot that with a pistol you know what i think it's weird that like he definitely shot her with a real gun or shot at

her with a real gun once again missed but the police are like definitely a paintball gun like did y'all see paintballs anywhere did you even look for like bullets or shells or anything? Like what the hell is going on with the police in these Mormon areas? It's pretty concerning. Yeah. There's a couple of things that are concerning, even when we talked about the initial investigation with Charles, with Chandler.

Apparently, by the way, that detective that I was like, oh, that can't be the guy who worked the case. There were some people I believe saying that he is the guy. He's the guy. He's one of the guys. I think he's one of the guys. I'm extremely perplexed by that. By the way, for anyone who doesn't remember, there was a guy like, yeah, we knew something was up.

In the show, I think it was the Sins of Our Mother show, he was like, we knew she was acting suspicious and this, this, and that. And he was, he definitely couldn't have gotten hit on the back of the head with a baseball bat by Charles who played baseball like professionally. You know, we knew something was odd, but then Alex doesn't get arrested. I will say this without knowing this to be the case. It could have been, it has happened.

You will have some times where you have a police department after the fact put together their case, believe that someone should be charged for a crime. And when they submit that packet to the prosecution or to the AG's office, they'll say, we don't think you have enough. So there could have been people internally at the Chandler Police Department who were like, hey, all day long, we don't care about self-defense or stand your ground or the Castle Doctrine. There was a couple of different people in our comments mentioning stuff. We don't care about any of that. We don't think this falls under that. We think you should be charged. And you could have someone over at the higher ups over at the AG's office saying, eh, you know what? It's too close. We're going to let it

slide. We don't think we have enough to get a guilty conviction here. So that could be a situation where behind closed doors, there was dissension between the, you know, people over at Chandler PD and the people at the AG's office, which I've personally experienced on numerous occasions with our own AG's office for cases that we tried to submit to get, to get charges brought against someone. I would really be interested to know what happened, know like if it was the da's office if it was the cops that just suck there's more there's definitely more to the story the fact that that cops out there saying like we knew it's one of two things right he's like monday morning quarterback

in it which would be pretty dumb because all of his colleagues and whatever would have known or it's something where it's kind of like his way of throwing a shot at the DA or the AG saying like yeah we knew we knew something wasn't right here but you know no one was charged that could be his way of throwing a dig at him too I don't know but either way if anybody knows if you're flying the wall yeah let us know so It's that anonymous DM. Or not anonymous. Like, let's blow this whole thing open together. So later during the investigation, also a Grendel AR was found in Alex's apartment.

Additionally, cult member Zulema Pastinas would testify that the night before the incident, they had all performed a casting on Tammy Daybell. Zulema was there, Lori was there, and Melanie Boudreau was there. And they were told by Lori that Tammy had been possessed by this demon named Viola. On the night of October 9th, after Alex failed to shoot Tammy, Zulema said that Lori got a call. And she said that Lori was very, very angry when she got this call. Then she said into the phone, that idiot, he can't do anything right. Once again, we don't know for sure. It's not explicitly said, but if Alex shot at Brandon Boudreau and failed to hit him and he shot at Tammy Daybell and failed to hit her, Lori might be like this freaking dumbass. Like you send him to do a

job and he can't even do this simple job. He's supposed to be the muscle and the protector. And the dude can't even like take anybody out properly besides children. Not a very good enforcer if he can't do that, right? No. And I mean, like, that's probably what she's mad about. And once again, never explicitly said, but like, that's definitely what she's pissed off about, that he failed. So for the next few days, Alex Cox visited many gun ranges. So maybe he was planning to make another attempt on Tammy's life. But on October 19th, 10 days after she'd been shot at in her own driveway, Tammy Daybell passed away in her sleep at the age of 49. She'd been perfectly

healthy prior to this. She was like training for a marathon, but her husband Chad told everyone that she'd gone to bed with a cough and never woken up. And I guess that they said it was a heart attack. Fremont County Coroner Brenda Dye ruled that Tammy's death was due to natural causes and the body was sent directly to the funeral home because Chad had denied an autopsy.

And they were like, okay, sure. This makes absolute sense that your perfectly healthy wife died in her sleep. And you're the one who told us this and now you don't want an autopsy. And yeah, that sounds perfectly legit, Chad. Which is another situation where I just scratched my head. I know. Because whether it's law enforcement or the ME's office. It's kind of the same. I feel like kind of, they're like kind of. The what?

They're kind of like on the same team though, don't you think? No. I mean, we, I mean, I've done, I did a few years. We never worked with the ME's as far as cases were concerned. They would come out after we called them and they're more responsible for the taking possession of the body, bringing it to the lab, autopsy. I mean, we don't even talk to the MEs unless there's something that we need to relate to them as far as, OK, we found medications here, whatever like that. But what I was getting at is when you have the police department show up, if you have someone who is reasonably healthy as the way you describe and young in age and 40 is young or 40, would you say 49? 48, 49. Yeah. Let's just say 49, right? That's still reasonably young.

It's not something that you would expect to have someone just pass away in their sleep like that, unless they had a history of heart disease in their family or something like that. But either way, usually as a side of caution, the ME will choose, regardless of what the spouse wants, to conduct that autopsy because that's not considered a normal circumstance to have someone pass. Right. So it's interesting to me that regardless of what his wishes were, the ME, because that's ultimately who makes that decision, not law enforcement, didn't decide, hey, you know what? This woman was preparing for a marathon, doesn't have any underlying conditions, wasn't on anything extreme as far as medication, doesn't seem anything obvious that would have been the reason behind her death.

We're going to do an autopsy report to kind of get in there and figure out what actually happened. What was the cause of her death? So for them to disagree to that, that's interesting. Well, I almost wonder if he cited religious reasons, you know, what, what, what was the cause of her death? So for them to disagree to that, that's. Well, I almost wonder if he cited like religious reasons, you know what I mean? See, I don't think that would, so I get it. And that's something that would be considered. In this area, religious reasons, if you're a Mormon probably would fly. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's possible, but it's one of those things where we, we've had situations, again, it's not as big out here. It's not as prevalent, but you'll have someone who wants things a certain way for their family member because of their religious beliefs.

And we try to honor that. You want to be respectful to that because you don't know going into it what it's going to be. But ultimately, if there's something going on here that needs to be investigated, they have the authority to overrule that. They can say, hey, listen, we respect what you want. We're going to try to honor as much as we can. But we feel this is something based on our protocol. We need to investigate further before we just classify this as a heart attack or whatever the cause of death was classified as. Is that what it was?

Heart failure? Heart attack and natural causes. But I also feel like Chad Daybell was kind of like a public figure, like kind of big in the Rexburg area. So that could have something to do with it. I mean, that's what I'm getting at here. There's something more at play here because it doesn't seem like that would be common protocol for a 49-year-old woman to pass away in her sleep unexpectedly and not to do any type of autopsy report on her. There's got to be some type of influence there that made this ME make that decision. And on Facebook, Chad seemed sad, if not a little distant, writing, quote, influence there that made this ME make that decision.

And on Facebook, Chad seemed sad, if not a little distant, writing, quote, I am saddened to share that my beautiful, talented wife, Tammy, passed away early this morning in her sleep. It's a shock to all of us. She was so beautiful in every way. We are still working out the details, but we plan to hold a viewing Monday evening in Springville, Utah, then hold the funeral and hopeful for the future. Lori texted Chad, quote, I feel lovesick. I can't sleep because I want you, end quote. And Chad responded back, quote, I know exactly how you feel. I am feeling sad, but not for the reasons everyone thinks,

end quote. These people are despicable. At the time of Tammy's death, Lori was actually in Hawaii. Alex had driven her to the airport and she was most likely there to give herself an alibi because that's what her lawyer would do later. He'd be like, she has nothing to do with Tammy's death. She was in Hawaii. But she was also kind of looking for places for herself and Chad to live because they were planning to move there. And they talked happily about this in text messages. Chad told Lori that he was going to get tighter abs. He was going to grow his hair out and get a full body tan so he would look good for her. And Lori told him she loved that plan. All right. part gross not going there not not even a not gonna not gonna acknowledge that not gonna acknowledge chad with a shirt off but what i will

acknowledge is something that said earlier in this little section here and that's the fact that over these last six parts we've talked about the motive right behind this like do do laurie and chad actually believe their own bullshit as far as a religious background as far as like you know eradicating these demons or are they using it as a scapegoat to carry out these acts and i've played both sides of it you know and people a lot of people agreed with you on it although i don't think we were really debating it i was just posing a question but that being the case regardless of what you think this right here this little quote that you just said when you posted it on facebook, is that what you said? That right there, is it Facebook, right?

About Tammy? About Tammy. Yeah. that a husband who cared about their wife, loved their wife, thought they were a good person at the time of their death was truly disappointed. If he was so convicted in his beliefs about religion and as far as what Tammy, her current status was, as far as whether she was possessed by a demon or not, why wouldn't you own that all the way through and say, listen, saddened to see her go, but I feel like she's in a better place now because whatever demon was, you know, taking over her body, he can't do that because- Well, they don't want people to know, right? They don't want people, you could still frame it in a way where you're like, listen,

what happened to her was God's will. What happened to her was an act of God because- But you don't want to be suspected for having something to do with it. Which tells me that there's more to it because you understand that what's happening is wrong. That's what I'm saying. Or if you were Chad and Lori, you would say, we know it's not wrong, but the general public, they don't understand. Their perception. So we can't be honest with them about this.

They can't know. They can't handle it. They can't handle the truth. And that's probably the case. And if it is, that just goes to show you that there's a lot of bullshit going on there because they're able to differentiate the two. I know we've talked about cases and also I've seen other cases where these cult leaders or these religious people who are devout through and through will come right on camera, will

be like, I killed that person because they were a demon. I own it. I don't run from it. Those are the people that are the extremist where they're in it to the end. Or they're mentally ill and so they don't care. Yeah. And that's the argument that I was making last episode. Could this be a situation where these people are mentally ill? And that's why I'm saying this right here, that ability to understand at minimum that society doesn't own this and doesn't respect this and doesn't acknowledge this,

the fact that we're able to be strategic in how we frame this killing tells me that they're not mentally ill, that there's something more there. And they're using the religious element of it more as a means of accomplishing what they just want as people. They want to be together. Tammy's a hurdle. We got to get rid of her. Well, if we just kill her for no reason, we're murderers. But if we kill her because she's a demon, then it's justified under the beliefs of what we follow. So therefore, it's okay. So I don't even know if they viewed Tammy as a hurdle to them being together.

Well, yeah, Tammy was a hurdle to them being together, right? She's in the way. But Chad's going to get like over $400,000 in life insurance money. Doesn insurance money. Okay. And so I think it was about the money from the beginning. Cause why, if you think the world's ending, are you talking about growing your hair out, getting abs and getting a tan? Like why? And moving to Hawaii. Why? I thought you said Rexburg was the place where you needed to be when the shit went down. Right? So to me, it's about the money. And then I look at Tylee and JJ, right? And I'm saying, well, Tylee was 16. She was going to be out of the house in a couple of years.

JJ, Kay and Larry Woodcock would have happily taken him. Why did Lori kill them unless she truly believed this shit? And some people can say, well, she did it for the money because she's getting social security money from both of them that she's stealing. And I guess, but that's like what? $5,000 a month? Like, is that enough to kill two of your children? I don't know.

I don't know. I think it's a combination of a lot of things. I think the money, the wanting to restart at life, getting rid of whatever was going on in the past, wanting to move forward with just Chad, new chapter, no baggage, quote unquote baggage. So I think it was a totality of things. There was a lot going on there. Maybe there was some element where they felt because there was so much displeasure with the

people that they were talking about, Charles, JJ, Tylee. There was something where they justified those feelings of those people because of their religious background. They were demons, et cetera, all these things. But at the end of the day, this ability to basically act in your Facebook page tells me that you're smart enough to know what you're doing is wrong. And you're putting on this facade at minimum for what you're saying so that nobody suspects him of being involved. At worst case scenario, it's something where this is a reveal

of what he knows to be true, which is that what he's doing is wrong. And he's a killer. And he has to put on this picture because if it was truly about religion for him, then he would own it. Just like he owns everything else when he wants to use religion

as a means of accomplishing what he wants. But no, he's going to go a different route. He's going to be the sad spouse, the widower here that just kind of is completely distraught over the loss of his lovely wife. When in reality, like you just said, he's texting Lori on the side about how he's going to move on with life with her. So he's an actor through and through, not only as a preacher, but as a person. And that's what he's doing here. And I think a lot of it did have to do with like their reputation and how they're viewed

from the outside. Like Lori was so, and people get so wrapped up in their identities, right? They like identify with being a certain way and they need people to see them in that certain way, or it like shatters their self-worth and their own self-image. So she was seen as this like, oh my God, how does she do it all? She's an amazing mother and she's in great shape and she's volunteering at the church and she's so devout. And she could not have that image shattered by being like, you know what? I actually can't handle this autistic kid anymore. Can you take him back? Because that's what would have happened. People would have, or she thought people would have seen her as less than or looked at her in like a judgmental way. And she could not have her

self-image shattered in that way. I think it's had something a judgmental way. And she could not have her self-image shattered in that way. I think it had something to do with that. And Chad too, he was a pillar in the community. His family was a pillar in the community. So what's he going to do? Divorce his wife? And then what? Now people don't buy his books. They don't respect him. There's gossip happening. Yeah. A lot to lose. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. It's believed that Alex Cox is the person who shot at both Brandon Boudreau and Tammy Daybell, and he was most likely responsible for Tammy Daybell's death as well, considering that, once again, his cell phone pinged near the Daybell home on the night of her passing.

And this may have been why Chad and Lori were feeling uneasy in the days after Tammy's death, because as Chad was collecting over $400,000 in insurance money, Lori was texting him saying, quote, I had a bad dream about Al. Make sure he is still him and protect him. He would be the one they use to get to us both. All this alone time is not good for him. End quote. Damn, Lori's cold, man. That's her own brother. And Chad responded, quote, I just cleared all of Al's weapons, curses, and cords and filled him with malachite healing balm. I also put angels around him. End quote. Back in Arizona, Brandon Boudreau, who was still in hiding, was trying to figure out who exactly had tried to kill him. And he knew whoever it had been was connected to his wife, Melanie, her aunt, Lori, and the bizarre group of people they hung with.

Brandon started going through emails that Charles Vallow had sent him before he died. And he read the odd things that Charles was saying about Lori and the name Chad Daybell kept coming up. So Brandon Googled Chad Daybell and immediately contacted the police when he found out that Chad's wife had recently passed away. Brandon then hired Arizona-based private investigator Rich Robertson to find Melanie, who had been out of touch with Brandon for two weeks and she hadn't been by to pick up her kids on the date and time that she was supposed to. Brandon was hoping that if Robertson could find Melanie, he would also find Alex Cox, who Brandon believed was the shooter.

So this is what Robertson was doing on October 31st when he witnessed Melanie and Alex Cox packing up a U-Haul outside of Melanie's house in Chandler, Arizona. Melanie was moving to Rexburg where she would get an apartment right next to her Aunt Lori. But first, she had to make sure that, you know,

she packed up all of her belongings, except it didn't look like Melanie was packing for her children. The PI, Robertson, said, quote, they were bringing stuff out of the house and loading it into the U-Haul, but I saw Alex Cox bringing out some twin mattresses and bags of what looked like they might have been kids' blankets and toys. He didn't put it was toys, mattresses, bedding materials. It was all in a pile out there on the curb with a little cardboard sign on it that said, free, end quote. It was also strange that Melanie didn't bring any of her kids' belongings with her to Rexburg,

considering that she and Alex, after they packed up this U-Haul, they went to multiple houses looking for her kids the day before they left for Rexburg. And Melanie even posted on Facebook that she was offering a $10,000 reward for anyone who could tell her where her children were. Melanie was also charged with trespassing twice in November when she showed up to the home of Brandon's parents demanding her children. P.I. Robertson said, quote, it was clear to us that she was aggressively trying to find the kids, even though she left all the kids stuff on the curb. And she was traveling

with Alex Cox, so that increased anxiety for Brandon and his kids, end quote. And this is strange because Melanie got rid of all her kids stuff and then tried to find her kids to bring them with her to Rexburg. And we know that Alex killed Tylee and JJ. And we know that Chad and Lori were talking about Melanie's kids being dark, remember? That's right. Were they going to kill those kids? Oh, I would venture to say yes. I mean, they're on a tangent here. I mean, think about it. Anybody who they view as dark, they are either killed or an attempt on their life has been made so far in this story. You know what I mean?

Anybody that they view as someone who's in their way, they're a means to an end. They're just someone they have to— Well, why wouldn't you just let Brandon have the kids and then they're not in your way? I feel like it might be something where he knows too much. He knows too much. And therefore, what do the kids know? Well, they also tried to kill Brandon. So maybe they just figured they'd try again. And so Brandon's not going to be there to be with the kids. That's true. I just feel like it's more,

it's crazy to say, but like a mafia mentality, like it's just tying up loose ends. They're just getting rid of people who could end up derailing what they're trying to do. And so they don't care. And the way they justify taking out men, women, children what they're trying to do. And so they don't care. And in the way they justify taking out men, women, children is they're demons. That's it. That's that supersedes everything else. Any other moral code that you may have, they're a dark spirit. They got to go. So weird. I really, I really wish that one of these people would just come out forward with the motive and be like, this is exactly why we did it. This is why we did it. But they're never going to do that. So Melanie and Alex would arrive in Rexburg on November 4th. And then Melanie did something very strange. In fact,

both Melanie and Alex did something very strange. They both got married, not to each other. That would be weird because they're related, but I'll talk more about that in a minute. On November 5th, 2019, 13 days after Chad attended a memorial service for his late wife, Tammy, he married Lori on a beach in Kauai. They both had leis around their necks, their hands were clasped, and on Chad's finger was a green malachite ring that Lori had purchased on her dead husband's Amazon account 17 days before Tammy Daybell died. Malachite to Lori and Chad was apparently believed to have powerful healing properties. It's been called the Stone of Transformation, and Lori's ring was also made out of malachite. She purchased the ring with her dead husband's Amazon account,

but she purchased the ring 17 days before Chad's wife was even deceased. Yes. Okay. If you're watching on YouTube, you're seeing my expressions, but damn. Yeah. We'll get this. I mean, for all the bases they covered, that seems like they might have misstepped on that one. I don't think they cared.

I mean, look at their text messages, man. They cared enough to post it on Facebook and put up this facade. Why even post anything on Facebook? I don't know. I don't know. their text messages, man. Cared enough to post it on Facebook and put up this facade. Why even post anything on Facebook? I don't know. But either way, that's crazy. I mean, do you not know there's going to be receipts? I mean, maybe she thought, like, why would they check Charles's Amazon account? Yeah. But you could go see where you purchased the... Yeah. I mean, you could still go... I don't know. I guess if you're a criminal, if you thought they were going to check it,

you would have did it differently. So obviously the reason they got caught is because they did some stupid shit. A lot of stupid shit, right? A lot of stupid, yeah. An abundance of stupid things that led to the arrest. Yeah. And get this, three days after Tammy Daybell died, literally on the day of her funeral, Lori was Googling wedding dresses and beach weddings in Hawaii. And during Tammy's funeral, friends of Chad's noticed his physical transformation.

He'd apparently been working out. He'd been losing a lot of weight. He was dressing more stylishly due to Lori's influence, and he just seemed kind of like happy and okay. You know, they were like, his friends were like, he looks good, and he seems like good. What's happening here? Yeah, that's not normal.

He lost his wife, and he actually is better off here? Yeah, that's not normal. He lost his wife and he actually, he's better off afterwards. Yeah, that's not new. Maybe a couple of years later, but damn. Right. And I mean, it's kind of like Chris Watts, right? Remember Chris Watts? In the months before he killed his wife and kids, when he was having a girlfriend and stuff, what did he do?

He went to the gym. He got ripped, right? You see that a lot in infidelity cases, you know, where one of the spouses will, all of a sudden, if you see this big dramatic change and there's not like a reason behind it where someone just decides, it's not always the case, not always the case, but if you see someone who's working out a lot, changing their grooming methods, things like that. Yeah. There may be something to it. There's someone they're trying to impress that. I mean, I'm not a relationship expert by any means, clearly, but it's one of those things. Or maybe they're trying

to attract to somebody to impress, but it ain't you. Yeah, it ain't you. They know your vibe and they've been giving you the same vibe for however long you've been together. So clearly it ain't you. And yeah, that's something to look at. Or you you do have i know there's gonna be people in the comments like oh i started working now i still love my husband or my wife you know yeah i get it sure i gotcha i'm just saying there are cases we know we know that's we get it we work happy for you yeah it's like it's like somebody gets super like they'll be the one yeah they'll be like just because you work out doesn't mean you're cheating no i mean it's just like it is a generalization. But I would say like, yeah, it's pretty common in infidelity cases, right? That's what he said in infidelity cases.

He didn't say in the general public. Yeah, there's usually signs. Usually if somebody's cheating and you find out later they're cheating, you would look at them and say, oh, now I can see it because they started working out. They started changing their appearance, et cetera, et cetera. Five days a week. It's Planet Fitness. There's something behind it because they started working out. They started changing their appearance, et cetera, et cetera. Five days a week. It's Planet Fitness. There's something behind it, you know? Yep.

I mean, if you're going to Planet Fitness five days a week, there's got to be something behind it. Yeah, for real. On November 26th, 2019, Detective Hermosillo and Detective Hope with the Rexburg Police Department went to Lori's apartment, located at 565 Pioneer Road, Unit 175. They had been contacted by the police from Gilbert, Arizona, after Charles Vallow's sister, Kay Woodcock, had contacted them and requested a welfare check on JJ, who she hadn't seen or spoken to since August. When the detectives arrived, they did not find Lori at home, but they found Alex Cox and Chad Daybell outside of Lori's apartment. According to the detectives arrived, they did not find Lori at home, but they found Alex Cox and Chad Daybell outside of Lori's apartment. And according to the police report, Chad pretended

that he didn't even know Lori that well, and he didn't even have her phone number. Alex told the police that he didn't know where Lori was, but he told them to check Unit 107. Unit 107 was actually where Alex was living. So they all kind of lived in the same apartment complex, Melanie, Alex, and Lori. But when detectives went to that apartment, they found it completely vacant and empty. Alex also told the police that JJ was with his grandmother, Kay Woodcock, in Louisiana, which they obviously immediately knew was a lie since Kay was the one who'd requested the welfare check. But Alex, not the sharpest tool in the shed. Detective Hermosillo saw Chad Daybell start to drive away in a black Chevy Equinox, so he stopped him and he asked him again, have you seen JJ? And Chad responded the last time he'd seen JJ was in that apartment 107

the previous month in October. He also admitted to knowing Lori's phone number and he gave it to the detective. Later that day, two more detectives were able to find Lori at her apartment, and they questioned her about JJ's whereabouts. And Lori said that JJ was with her friend, Melanie Gibb, in Gilbert, Arizona, and she gave them Melanie's number. The detectives immediately tried to call Melanie, but she didn't answer. So they went back to Lori, and they were like, she didn't answer. Can you call her for us?

And Lori was like, well, you know, Melanie actually brought JJ to see Frozen 2 and that's why she's not answering the phone. So what do you want me to do? And the police were like, well, could you call Melanie and have her call us so we can verify JJ's whereabouts? And she was like, sure. But of course that didn't happen. But when they didn't hear from Melanie yet by that evening, the Rexburg police contacted the Gilbert police in Arizona and they were like, check on Melanie. And so the Gilbert police went to Melanie's house around 930 that evening. Melanie wasn't home, but Detective Ryan Piller of the Gilbert police department was able to get her on the phone. And Melanie revealed that JJ was not with her and she hadn't seen him in months. Later on December 6th, Melanie Gibb would call the Rexburg Police Department and tell them that the day the

police had been looking for JJ, she'd received calls from both Chad and Lori who had asked her to lie and say that JJ was with her. That night, November 26th, under the cover of darkness, Lori and Chad left Rexburg, heading once again for Hawaii. On November 27th, search warrants were executed at Lori's Rexburg apartment, as well as Melanie's apartment next door and Alex's apartment, which, like I said, was completely empty besides a few items in the garage, which is weird because, like, was he living there or were they just using that apartment for, like, a place to kill people is my question. Why was it empty i don't know could have absolutely been that but also it could have been they cleared the place out knowing that this was this was a potentially

all the furniture and everything yeah i mean did dna something in there that they didn't want people to find where they said hey let's get rid of it all if it's not here they can't examine it right i feel like they had nothing in that apartment, dude. No furniture, no nothing. I think they just covered the place with like plastic sheeting. And I'll tell you why I think that in a minute. But inside Lori's apartment, they found that most of the clothing had been removed. And they also found evidence that JJ had been prescribed something called Risperidone, which is a medication that's meant to treat the irritability caused by autism. And that prescription had last been filled in Arizona in January of 2019, and there were still 17 pills in the bottle almost a year later. Police also searched Lori's

storage unit at Self Storage Plus in Rexburg, and inside they found toys that had belonged to JJ, clothes that had belonged to both JJ and Ty Lee, bikes, a scooter, photo albums, a backpack with JJ's initials on it, and two blankets. One blanket had pictures of JJ on it. The other had pictures of Ty Lee on it. So basically, you know, Melanie Boudreau just like kind of dumps her kids' stuff on the curb and says, free to a good home. And Lori puts her kids' stuff in storage like they never to a good home and lori puts her kids stuff in storage like they never existed yeah they're scumbags i don't know how many times we can keep saying it in different ways i mean this is just a reoccurring theme throughout these

episodes where we're just finding more and more information out that confirms what we already know which are just terrible people all right so let's talk about melanie and alex getting randomly married not to each other because that would be weird, but not weird for them. I feel like these people. Off of the course. Yeah. Nothing. Nothing's off of bounds or out of bounds.

You know, they're just, but they did not get married to each other. So we are going to talk about all of it, but let's take a quick break. Melanie met a young divorced LDS man named Ian Palowski in November, and they were married 10 days later on November 30th in Las Vegas. And Ian remembered that he had to ask Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow for Melanie's hand in marriage because, quote, at that time, Chad and Lori were the closest family that she had. She trusted them more than any of her other relatives, end quote. But Melanie was pulling Ian into their religion and sharing her beliefs with him very early on, even before they were married. Later, Ian would say, quote, when Melanie began sharing all of these things with me, I tried to keep an open mind. I'd only met her four days previous,

but felt very comfortable around her. I believe there is more to the gospel than what I have seen so far, but I never thought it would sound like this. The idea seemed harmless at first, and she sounded pretty certain of some of them. She talked about how she had learned some of these things in the temple and others from Chad and Lori. Upon first meeting Chad and Lori, I didn't get a bad impression of them, but they seemed different. I didn't think anything of that as I feel like that's a fairly normal feeling to experience. I didn't give them much thought as they said they were planning on taking off and that I'd be taking the reins concerning Melanie. They said they'd be going to Hawaii and inviting me to visit sometime. Later, Melanie explained porting and that they

could travel there by that method. The first time hearing all of these new beliefs was a jolt. I was looking for someone spiritual, but this was a leap beyond that into concerning territory. I had fears and doubts, but I trusted Melanie and wanted to give it a fair chance, so I continued to listen and ask questions in hopes it would click for me. It never did. There were fun and exciting ideas, but it felt like many of them were ripped out of a Dungeon and Dragons manual. Between the stats, accounts of dark and light weapons, and words spoken in blessings, it sounded like someone had created a tabletop RPG based on the Bible. While living

something like that appealed to me, I couldn't find anything to confirm it as I prayed and asked. I figured anyone called to something like this would struggle, but how else would they be made aware of things like this? I continued to try to keep an open mind and proceed with caution. Melanie began to share that she feared for the lives of two of her children based on a dream she'd had where they came to her. They brought her tidings of great joy. Her daughter thanked her for allowing her the freedom to use her agency until the end. This concerned me and made my heart ache for her. I felt there was no way anything could have happened without people finding out. We married faster

than any sane couple would, but we both felt it was right. On our wedding night, she began to elaborate on the ideas she had shared earlier about her children coming to her. She explained zombies and her fears about what Chad and Lori stated concerning the original spirits being caught in limbo until the body's death. She stated that Brandon had been possessed by a demon or another dark entity sometime after June of this year. She was told either through revelation or by Chad that something would happen to him, that something needed to happen to him in order for his spirit to progress and for the Lord's plan, but didn't think action would be taken by anyone. She still loves Brandon and would never wish any ill on him. It just sounded to her like it would be something that happened on its own when it was his time. So question, does this sway you at all from the idea that she could have been driving the vehicle? No. No. Okay. Just asking. Does it sway you? No, I mean, I think... She's not going to be like like i was in the car when alex tried to kill my husband you know yeah i'm gonna tell that to her new husband yeah no and i regardless of how i interpret

this the facts are the facts and it seems like there was somebody else in the car just reasonable deduction as brandon was suggesting there was only a handful of people who would have known his whereabouts so you would think from a logistical standpoint, it would be best to have the person who knows where he's going to be driving the vehicle to guide the shooter to the right spot. At the very least, she gave Alex the address. I mean, yeah, that's that's basically what he's inferring. Not even I mean, that's what he's inferring. Saying there's only a few people who knew where I where was that knew my address. So that's what he's inferring saying there's only a few people who knew where i where was that knew my address so that's that and i think yeah i do there's nothing

to suggest there's nothing to prove i should say that melanie was the one driving the car so we got to be cautious with that she could have been like you said just gave an address if anything it could have been someone else it could have been one of alex's other kind of lackeys that he kind of rolled with that that wasn't a main character in the story. But I do feel like. I don't think so. I don't think they're going to bring anybody in that's not like actively wrapped up in this cult. Has something to lose.

Yeah, he was either alone or it was like one of these main people that we've talked about with him. I mean, that could be. So the car, when it rolled up and shot, it came to a complete stop. He was parked out there for hours yeah so that could that could be an indication that maybe he got out of the driver's seat hopped into the back seat to get a better position on it and also you know i don't know we have more room back there to do it because obviously not behind the steering wheel things like that and then the car then followed brandon after he fled right? Yeah. Like he fled and the

car pulled right out and followed him. Well, I mean, that also could be a situation where, although it may be quick, if we're going to the theory that it's a single shooter, right? They're in the back seat. They fire the rounds. Alex files the rounds. Then when he realizes that Brandon's getting away, he jumps over the seat, hops in the driver's seat and puts it in, you know, drive and takes off. I guess. It's possible. Yeah.

It's possible. But to the beginning of what you said, again, Alex had to know where Brandon was going to be. And he didn't. Had to know where this new house was. Yep. And Melanie knew. And I think it's weird that it's like,

oh yeah, Chad said that Brandon has to die. But I don't think anybody's going to actually like take it upon themselves to do this, even though literally she's taking part in these conversations about like getting Charles Vallow out of the way. And, you know, not like saying like, let's kill him, but sort of like, let's take care of him. Let's get him out of the way. And then Charles Vallow died at the hands of Alex. So is she thinking that Alex is incapable of killing somebody that they believe to be a demon and a dark spirit? She knows that he is. So it seems to me like a little too naive to be like, I know they say Brandon has to die, but I'm sure they won't do anything. It'll just happen naturally when it's his time. And even if that's like, wouldn't that make you sad? Like, wouldn't you warn him in some way? I don't know. I don't know. This is the father of

your children, you horrible, horrible person. Sorry. So what you're saying is this could just be theatrics. I don't know. I think it's just, I don't know. Allegedly, my opinion, Melanie is more involved or was more involved than she pretends to be. Okay. So like Ian continues, you know, she still loves Brandon. She doesn't wish anything to happen to him. It sounded like her like something would just happen on its own when it was his time.

Ian continues, this is where things started becoming concerning to me. She shared the idea that Chad and Lori could have directed Al to take a shot at Brandon. It wasn't anything she was sure about. The concern began when she was called into the Gilbert PD and asked about Chad, Lori, and Alex after the attempt on Brandon's life. She was later given the impression that the bullet needed to move five inches so as not to hit Brandon. Initially, to me, it sounded like this was told to her by Chad. The discussion moved to Chad and Lori's missing children. At the time, only JJ was counted as missing and the Rexburg PD had conducted raids on Melanie's apartment along with Al's. Melanie had been told by Chad and Lori

that her children had become possessed and had become zombies. She shared concerns that she's been told Brandon needed to die and that may indicate that JJ and Kylie needed to die as well. See, she's not like naive. She's putting the pieces together. She knows what's up. She gets it. Yeah. She told me she was worried that Al may have to take care of the kids. She explained that Al had great faith and never wavered in his trust in the Lord. No task would be too difficult or great for him. When I asked for clarification, she restated her concern verbatim. At that point, I became severely worried and I told myself,

there's no way I just married into a situation so sinister. I spent the next two days trying to justify my actions and reassure myself that everything was fine, but I couldn't get to that point. My ex-wife, Natalie, had been asking for Melanie's name so she could check her out on social media and get an idea of who she is. Melanie had been adamant that I not share her full name with anyone for fear that Brandon may locate and harass her. I couldn't justify that and eventually gave Natalie Melanie's full name. On Tuesday, December 2nd, I got a call from my mother. She'd just gotten off the phone with Natalie.

When we divorced, Natalie made a point to cut herself off from my entire family and hadn't spoken to any of them for at least eight months. She had made as little contact with me as possible, but hadn't been unkind since the initial conflict of the divorce. My mother told me she just received a video call from Natalie. Natalie was terrified. He'd managed to reach Brandon through his business and heard his side of things. She'd been told that Melanie was in a cult and that she had tried to have him killed. While I didn't and still don't believe she had anything to do with his attempted murder, I was still terrified of the possibility. He's absolutely sure she had nothing to do with it, but still terrified of the possibility. Didn't know she was in a cult till about five minutes before that phone call, but she didn't do it. He's like, how could I have married

into this situation? This crazy, cause you knew her for 10 days before you married her? Yeah, I might have something to do it. The next morning on my way to work, Natalie called and we were discussing how to handle this in order to keep our kids safe. She told me she'd be going to meet with the police. I told her I'd go along and lay out everything I understand. I saw two possibilities. The first was that Melanie isn't who I thought she was and I keep myself and my family out of a dangerous situation. The second was that Melanie has been taken advantage of and I'm going to get her out of a dangerous situation. The second was that Melanie has been taken advantage of and I'm going to get her out of a messy situation and healed. When meeting with the police,

I intended to share things as I understood. Detectives Hope and Hermosillo were present along with an FBI agent named Ricky. What I shared with the police were the ideas that Chad, Lori, and Alex may have planned shooting at Brandon and that Tylee and JJ may be in serious danger. If Melanie Spears have any validity, if shooting Brandon was indeed based on the idea that he was no longer actually Brandon and needed

to die as part of the Lord's plan, then the kids' lives could be forfeit based on the idea that they are not really Tylee and JJ anymore. All right, so we're going to take one last quick break. We have plenty left to go, but we got to squeeze one last in and we'll be right back. Okay, so Ian continues on and he says, quote, I shared that Melanie had concerns about them participating in the shooting and was against anyone trying to hurt him. She couldn't see them doing these things, but she also knew that they would follow the Lord's prayer as they saw it. I shared ideas about earthquakes being prepared in Salt Lake City and that it was believed there would be a time when the quakes hit that many possessions would occur there due to the high number of injured there would be. Such a thing

would be a huge threat to God's plan and would need to be dealt with directly. Al and Zulema had stayed in Las Vegas and were preparing earthquakes at the time I spoke with the police. I shared concerns for the safety of my kids and Natalie. I offered to help in any way I can. I then allowed them to pull data from my phone, end quote. So we're going to talk about what Ian agreed to do for the police, but first let's talk about Alex and Zulema, who had also gotten married in Vegas on November 29th. Zulema had first met Lori during a religious gathering at a friend's house in 2018. The two became close friends.

They began traveling together to all these different areas to watch Chad Daybell speak. Zulema watched as Chad and Lori fell for each other and then began to create a group of loyal followers around them, which eventually included Zulema herself. Lori and Chad also introduced Zulema to Lori's brother, Alex Cox, and he and Zulema began dating in the summer of 2019. Zulema claimed that Chad gave her a blessing and told her that the Savior was standing right next to him and all of her sins would be forgiven and it was time for her to leave Arizona, move to Rexburg, and there she would be married. The day after Zulema and Alex got married, Alex told Zulema he would give her a massage, but he said first they had to go to Walmart and get a large plastic drop cloth. So they bring this back to the hotel and Alex spreads

the drop cloth over the bed. He has Zulema lay on it. And Zulema said she remembered laying down on the bed on the plastic tarp and she felt incredibly relaxed. And then she like fell asleep really fast. She said, quote, I was thinking, why am I so relaxed and can't wake up? I was in and out and could hear him talking. And I was like, who's he talking to? End quote. So Zulema said she was eventually able to wake up and she'd heard Alex talking to someone in the bathroom. And she asked Alex, like, who were you talking to on the phone? He said, no one. He said, I was talking to myself. Zulema then took a bath and she asked Alex if he wanted to watch a movie, but Alex was distracted by something on his phone and unusually quiet. Zulema said, quote, Alex is usually joking and he would find a way to

turn things into a joke. He was always making you laugh, but he said nothing for the rest of the evening. I asked if he was okay and he said he was just tired. The fact that he was quiet and said nothing, that's so not Alex. Alex is not quiet. End quote. Later, Zulema wondered, what was really supposed to happen to her that night, considering that Alex had never given her a back rub or a massage before, and some other things about that evening stuck out to her. She said, quote, at the time, I had no question about it. There was not enough oil for a drop cloth. And now I'm like, why would you necessitate a whole drop cloth all over the bed to give me a massage? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Maybe I'm just a little crazy because of all the stuff that's happened. But in the back of my mind, I keep thinking that who was on the phone was Chad and Lori,

and that was supposed to be my last day, end quote. Damn. She dives the bullet, but man, I'll tell you, religious or not, or oil, someone says to you, I don't know if we have to put this out there. I think it's just hostile because we're in this space, right? No, I think if you're in any situation, guy, girl. Massage. If someone says to you, hey, before you lay down on this thing, I'm going to put a drop cloth down real quick. Run. Just run. Okay. So there is like one instance where you would want the drop cloth, right? You would have an instance. There's one instance where it absolutely makes sense, especially if you're a hotel and you don't want to like... So like if you cover yourself in baby oil and then cover the other person in baby oil and you're naked and you're sliding

around on the tarp, you don't, you want the tarp there. If you're in a hotel? Yeah. I mean, even at home. What do you care? It's a hotel. You're not cleaning the bed. No, because then you'll get charged when there's oil. Have you ever got, you cannot get oil out of like comforters and stuff. All right. Well, let me, let me amend my thing. Don't cover yourself in oil and the other person in oil like that and just slip around on each other like a slip and slide. Get out of here.

It's actually quite fun. No, I'll pass. Just like dive onto the person and slide right off. I'm good. I mean, no. Hit the headboard. You're doing other things, Derek.

No. So innocent. So innocent and sweet. But no, if you're covered in oil. We're adults. Can't you just have regular sex? Do we have to lube ourselves up to the point where we can like slip out of each other can you just have regular sex we have to lube ourselves up to the point where we can like slip out of each other you can't have regular sex but you can have

you know this kind of sex too like i don't know how that would even be we don't have to make it about i just don't know how that would be enjoyable i'll tell you later okay you do that yikes okay so anyway zulima would later testify that out of all of them, Alex Cox believed in demonic possession and the danger of dark spirits the most. Zulema remembered after Charles Vallow had been shot to death by Alex, she was like, Alex, oh my God, this is so traumatic. Are you okay? And Alex had responded, Zulema, he was a zombie. So Zulema claimed that Alex believed everything that Lori and Chad told him. She said that for a while, she personally even believed everything she was being told. She thought that these castings were good and they were adding

value to the world. She said that Lori was very convincing and had a vivacious way of expressing things. So once again, remember, Chad's talking to Lori, but Lori's talking to the rest of them. Okay? Lori is talking to the rest of them and getting everybody riled up and casting and plastic tarping things yeah so you're saying she's the common denominator because we don't even know like maybe half this shit she was telling them chad didn't even tell her and she's just like chad said this chad said we should do this chad said we should do that you know what i mean possible i mean i'm not putting anything by her based on some of the things we've already seen and heard about her. And we've seen on video. It's not even speculation. We've seen the interviews. Well, the first few weeks of

December 2019 were very, very eventful. First, we have Melanie's new husband, Ian, going into the police station with his ex-wife, Natalie. And I'll continue on with Ian Pawlowski's statement, quote, they, the police, shared some mild concern about me potentially spying for Chad and Lori. I explained that I was there because I was concerned primarily for the safety of my kids and that I wanted to get Melanie out of this if possible. They gave me a recording device that looked like a thumb drive on a keychain. My plan was to record anything I thought could help locate Tylee and JJ, locate Chad and Lori, and understand what happened when Brandon was shot at. If I thought that Chad and Lori were going to be calling, I'd turn on the recorder and just let it run until they hung up. I don't feel that anything substantial was recorded, as Chad

and Lori never talked about the kids or their location. Most of the conversations consisted of everyone commiserating about the current circumstances their location. Most of the conversations consisted of everyone commiserating about the current circumstances, discussing religious ideas, and just catching up. In addition to the recordings, I would talk with Ricky, he's the FBI agent, and he would let me know about things that may come up in conversation. He was never specific, but he would give me enough information to know when it came up. These tips turned into Tammy's body being exhumed and Al's passing, end quote. So by December, law enforcement had started putting the pieces together. First, Lori's husband, Charles, had been killed. Then Lori's kids had vanished, and no one knew where they were. And then Chad's wife, Tammy

Daybell, had died in her sleep. It was all too suspicious, and so Tammy's body was exhumed from Springville Cemetery on December 11, 2019. That same day, Lori and Chad, who were in Hawaii, but nobody knew that they were in Hawaii, they called Alex and informed him that Tammy was being exhumed. For weeks before this, the newlyweds had stopped all communication with Alex, which according to Zalima, had really upset and hurt her new husband. Alex was pissed that Lori and Chad had made them all move to Rexburg, but then they'd taken off and they were living somewhere else alone. And he and Zulema ended up moving back to Arizona too. And I think this is very important

because remember, Rexburg was supposed to be the place where the 144,000 would gather and the white camps were going to be there and this, this, and that. But it seemed like as soon as the kids were dead, Charles was dead, and Tammy was dead, Chad and Lori were like, Rexburg who? We got money, and we're going to Hawaii, and we don't really care what you guys do. You're a cult without leaders now, basically. We're doing our own thing, which lets me know once again that it was more about the money and removing these obstacles than the actual religious aspect of it. Although I think Chad and Lori both convinced themselves or thought they were convincing each other that it was about the religious aspect. I think they were both playing each other simultaneously, honestly. I think you're onto something there. I definitely do. I think a lot of what you're

saying has been backed up by their behavior throughout the whole series. So it's really not speculation at this point. Their actions have supported what you just laid out. Right. And even Zulema and Alex ended up moving back to Arizona. So nobody's in Rexburg at this point, even though that's where they were all supposed to gather and the end days was going to happen there. And around Thanksgiving, Alex had told Zulema, quote, can you believe they're being such jerks after how much I helped them? Now they don't even want to talk to me, end quote. But when Lori and Chad finally did call, Alex didn't seem very happy about it. And when Zulema asked what Lori and Chad had called about, Alex told her about the exhumation. And Zulema had some questions. She said, quote, I was very confused at the reason why they would

be exhuming Tammy's body. And I asked him if he was involved in anything that could do with Tammy's body and I asked him if he was involved in anything that could do with Tammy's death. He said no, end quote. But when Zulema kept asking Alex about it, he became very quiet and unresponsive before saying, quote, I think I'm being their fall guy, end quote. And Zulema was like, what are you talking about? Fall guy for what? What's happening? But Alex wouldn't give her a straight answer. So she got frustrated, started to walk away. And then she heard Alex say, Zulema, either I am a man of God or I am not. Alex Cox would never get to hear the results of Tammy Daybell's autopsy, because the next day, after he heard that her body was exhumed, December 12, 2019, two weeks after becoming a married man, Zulema Pastienes' son found Alex on the floor of the bathroom, struggling

to breathe and vomiting. The autopsy later determined that Alex had died of natural causes. He died from multiple blood clots that were wedged into his arteries and lungs, and he'd also been suffering from very high blood pressure. Zulima told the police that a few days prior, on December 6th, Alex was having shortness of breath and he'd driven to Mexico the next day to buy prescriptions, which were cheaper there. But even after getting back home, resting, and taking his medication, Alex didn't feel any better, but he wouldn't go see a doctor. Instead, he called Chad Daybell for a priesthood blessing. Alex Cox may have died of natural causes, even though I feel like

there's something super sketchy about it, by the way, because remember, Lori and Chad, they did kind of use him to do their dirty work and the dirty work was done. And Alex himself felt like, I think they're going to make me the fall guy, right? So the fact that he dies the day after he hears Tammy's body is being exhumed. I mean, it could have just been put so much stress on him. That's where I'm going with it. I think it was just like he knew the cards were all crumbling. They were all falling at that point. But you know, Chad and Lori were like, oh, see, that's what happens. We put a casting on him. Oh, yeah, for sure.

From Hawaii. And, you know, we took care of it because he's fulfilled his purpose here on this plane in this time. Yeah. So Alex Cox may have died of natural causes, but Tammy Daybell did not. Dr. Eric Christensen would later testify about how he had overseen the autopsy, during which it was revealed that Tammy's actual cause of death was asphyxiation. He also explained to the jury that there are many ways in which someone can be asphyxiated, smothering neck or chest compressions, blocking their ability to breathe by covering their nose or mouth. The autopsy showed that Tammy had bruises on her right and left arms, as well as her chest. And these bruises were consistent with someone being restrained and also consistent with asphyxia. These bruises could only have happened in the hours around her death,

basically while she was still alive and being killed. And there were six on the front of her body and four on the back. Tammy was also found with a frothy reddish-pink foam coming out of her mouth, and Dr. Christensen indicated that this was a froth that comes from the lungs due to a pulmonary edema, which is also a symptom of asphyxiation. Additionally, police officers on the scene reported that they'd found Tammy's body stiff and cold, and she'd been laying on her back for a while after her death, which caused Dr. Christensen to estimate that Tammy had been dead for hours before her husband, Chad, had called 911. So that's where we're going to leave it for tonight. But what do you think about

this? Chad Daybell, I don't think Chad Daybell killed his wife himself. I think Alex came there and did it. Because like I said, his cell phone's pinging in that area. He was like at a church or a temple, like just a mile and a half away from the Daybell home. And Lori was in Hawaii. And why was he near the Daybell home that night of Tammy's death? And Chad Daybell seems like way too much of a pussy to do anything himself. You know what I mean? Especially because it's his wife. Possible. I'll throw just another theory out there because I do think Chad might have had some involvement with Ty Lee and JJ. But I get what you're saying as far as the wife. I don't think this guy has a conscience like that. But here's another theory. You said that there was bruising on both of her arms. Yes. person or multiple people holding her down. And that would cause that type of bruising on her arms. It would be very difficult to have one person cause all of those injuries. It could be

a situation where she was being held down by the arm, so therefore she can't pull the pillow off her face, can't fight back while someone else is holding something over her face and mouth. And that restricted her breathing. And obviously she passed away. It wouldn't take long. That was just something that when you talked about the bruising on the arms, that would be the only explanation I can come up with as I'm sitting here. I mean, he could have held her on the arms with his knees. Could have. Could have, like, straddled her.

Yeah, just, like, placing one knee on each arm, and then he's got his hands free. But you said six locations, correct? Six on the front, four in the back. Yeah. That's a lot. I mean, now during a struggle, those knees can move around, right? If you've ever wrestled with someone as you're, you know, they're trying to get you off of them, your knees will move around, you know, as you're trying to tussle with them a little bit, but six bruises. I know. If you made me say right now, I would say Chad was there. And I would say it was a collaborative effort between Chad and Alex.

I wouldn't put it past him. Yeah, I wouldn't put it past him. I think that he would find, like, and in that moment, Alex would be more willing to do it because he's doing it with the guy that he looks up to and they're doing it together

and they're, you know, they're getting rid of this demon. They're getting rid of this dark spirit. And so I can see a world where even in Chad's own head, he's justifying this as he's a, he's a, he's a son of God and he's carrying out his, his word. He's doing what needs to be done right now. And I, at minimum, I, I w I wouldn't be surprised if we learned, if we were flying the wall, that it was both Chad and Alex and maybe a combination of Alex holding her down while Chad killed her because of the bruising, because of the bruising.

And I think there's probably conversations that happened, right? Where maybe Chad and Alex were like, all right, the shooting thing didn't work. Alex, you suck. We've got to figure out a different way. Get over here. One more thing about it. Not always the case, but sometimes when you have these asphyxiations due to a pillow or compression, whatever it is, it sounds like it

could have been something where her face was covered. That's what it sounds like. It doesn't sound like there's any signs of strangulation. This was a type of asphyxia they probably got obviously while she's in bed, on expecting, in the middle of the night. In a lot of those cases, even though you're not expecting it, if it's one person, the first thing you do is you fight or flight. You're going to fight for your life and you may scratch your offender. There's defensive wounds on the person that's being choked. And then also there may be some injuries to the offender. And although not a very deep search was done of Chad at this point, because they obviously believed him when he said it, you would expect to have some more type of defensive wounds on her, maybe

skin cells under the fingernails, things like that. And it doesn't appear that that was, that was brought up. So I wonder if it was just not done or was it a situation where, because she was being held down, she couldn't defend herself, right? The first thing that's done is her arms are restrained and then she's asphyxiated. Then she's smothered and that would prevent her from fighting back with any type of merit that might actually help her. So that would be my guess based on the specifics that were laid out in that autopsy that she was restrained by someone and smothered by someone else. Damn. It's hard to think about that too, because for Tammy that she would have been completely blindsided by this. Yeah. The other thing too, bruises on the back of the

arms. Again, I don't have a visual of it, but that could also be these bruises. We're not talking, they could be big, they might be small, but either way, if you're thinking about it visually, for those of you who are watching on YouTube, when you grab someone's arm, you have four fingers on the top, the thumb on the bottom. So that right there, each hand would cause two bruises. So if he's moving around a little bit during the struggle, that could explain the bruises to the back of the arm and to the front of the arm for some of them. That would be one way of explaining, because I don't think they would flip her over mid trying to smother her. That wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Well, either way, at this point, definitely Alex is involved because why is he close to the house? Chad was present. And we know that when Tylee and JJ were buried on Chad's property, both Chad and Alex were present again. So yeah, I think they were both involved. Alex is the guy. Alex is the guy with all of this. Alex is the dude, yeah. He's the guy. He's the enforcer. He's the one who carries out the dirty work. I'm sure in his mind, he's someone who believed he was, you know, the soldier in that sense where that was his duty. He was, as you've said numerous times throughout the series, he was the protector.

And I don't think any of these instances happened without Alex's involvement. I think he was brought in on all of it to do the dirty work, if you will. And so you had Charles, obviously Alex took it upon himself to make sure that got carried out. Well, no, Laurie called him over and was like, Charles is coming over to take care of this. he made sure that it got to a level where he could quote unquote defend himself. Right. I believe that there was some provocation there that obviously he was insinuating, he was poking the fire there, stoking the fire and, and trying to rile Charles up to the point where there would be some type of altercation, even when it might've been coming down. Right. Even when it might've been coming down to, to allow him to go get his gun and re-engage with Charles and, and ultimately lead where it led.

And then obviously we have Tylee and JJ. Then we also have Zulema where I think you're right. I think the tarp, I think the phone call that was in the room, he might've drugged her in some way, which is why she couldn't get up. So, you know, you said that she was really tired and she just felt like an instant feeling come over her. Instant relax. Yeah. That sounds like some type of form of some type of medication, you know, that came over her that maybe she had been given earlier in the evening and it just started to kick in. And then for some reason, those those plans changed.

But yeah, Alex is the guy. And I don't see a world where, as you said, at minimum, Alex killed killed Tammy himself. But I do think in this situation uh Chad was probably present we know he was home right for the most part so yeah he was so unless he sat in the other room like a complete coward which is which is obviously possible it's possible my guess is that he was involved that's my guess yeah and I almost see it's like who do they trust enough to help them if it's not Chad it's not Alex melanie powalski there like how how how involved was she and like if you ever have time i think it was nate eaton you know nate eaton right

yeah i think he interviewed melanie and the guy that brian inton that we were talking about before we mixed up the names remember that one yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Nate Ian. So I think he interviewed Melanie and Ian Pawlowski when this kind of all came out. And Melanie's still defending Lori, right? And she's like defending Lori. She's like, the kids are fine. Don't worry. They're fine. Like Lori says they're fine. Everybody, even Lori's mother, Janice and her sister Summer, they also did an interview and they were like, well, Lori says the kids are fine. And I swear to God, I remember because I was watching this as it was going down. I remember thinking they probably are fine. These super religious people, maybe they took them to some compound somewhere and they're going to meet them there and they just don't want anybody to

find out where it is. Why would you kill two kids, your own kids? Like, I couldn't wrap my head around it. And I remember being, you know, more naive back in those days. These were the 2020 days. And I'm no longer naive. I'm hardened and I understand that anything is possible now. So I just remember it happening. And it was like, you knew that you felt that there was hope.

Like, you felt like maybe there's a slim chance those kids were dead. But there was more hope than anything that they were alive and just hidden away somewhere. Like, none of this would make sense. And everybody around Lori, like her mother, her sister, her niece, they were all like, don't worry, guys. Everything's fine. The kids are fine. Lori says they are. And it was just, it blows my mind that all of these people continue to like defend her,

even though all of this stuff was coming out and she looked, you know, cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Well, I don't think you're wrong in what you were thinking because you didn't know how deep this went, how many layers there were to Lori Val. Some of it was coming out, like the dark and like spirit stuff was coming out, like the zombie stuff was coming out. What you're covering now, did you know all of this? Not all of this, but like some of it i remember seeing some of the you know the mainstream stuff that was coming out there and i i was kind of indifferent about you never know if you don't know enough about it's like you can assume but everyone has an opinion right and it was one of

those situations where just lori just some of the clips they were showing of her like even like when they were trying to interview her it something was swarmy about her. I was like, ah, something's not right. This ain't good. This ain't good. And I didn't know if it was something where she knew where they were, but there was more to it than just sending them off to a school. Like, I don't know, something money involved, you know, sometimes these people give their kids away. I didn't know what the, what the hell was going on, but I was like, Hey, listen, we're going to find out, but it doesn't sound like it's going to end. Well, it doesn't at this point to not even have law enforcement come out and say, you know what? We can't disclose what it is, but the kids have been spoken to,

you know, that they've been spoke nothing as the days went by. It's like less and less likely they're still alive. Oh. And I also want to say when Alex Cox died, for some reason he had, um, Narcan in his system. Yeah. My only usage with Narcan is for someone who's overdosing. So I don't know what other reason you would be taking that for. Could someone, well, here's the thing I would say. It's something where when EMTs arrive, right? When EMTs arrive, if they suspect that it could be an overdose, they will give them Narcan. They'll inject you with it.

They will give them the Narcan because it's not going to necessarily hurt them if they're wrong. So if there's any indication that the person may be suffering from an overdose, they will administer Narcan. So if I had to guess, more than likely that's what happened when obviously later they realized it was, it was, it was a heart attack. You think that they, you think that the paramedics, if the paramedics were responded to the scene and he had, you said foaming of the mouth, he was found in the bathroom. What, what, what do you have? He was like throwing up, throwing up. That could be a sign. And if they said, Hey, has ever used any drugs before? You know, she might've said, yeah, maybe he dabbled a little bit. Okay.

Let's give him the Narcan. Let's hit him with the Narcan. Cause I will tell you, have you ever seen videos on Narcan? It's pretty crazy. You'll have someone who's completely OD. And people will just be like, like they came to life like a zombie. It's crazy. So they'll hit him with that in the hope that that, and that's the one way to tell, right?

You hit him with the Narcan and if they come right out of it, then you know, that's what you have. You have an overdose. But obviously if they hit them with it and there's no response to it, then you know it's something else. And that may have been what happened. That's why it was obviously- Can you think that somebody who had like high blood pressure, if you gave them Narcan, would

it like kill them? I don't think so. Don't hold me to that, people in the comments. I don't believe so. I have had situations where we show up on the scene. We're not obviously doctors. So we see something where the person's not responding much. They might have some vomit coming out of their mouth. We don't really have anybody around. Someone found this person on the side of the road. We don't know if they're suffering from some type of medical condition or they're having an overdose. EMTs arrive. This would be a better question for my brother. He's an EMT, but they show up. There's some, obviously some things that they can do visually to check, to see if they can identify what it is quick. But I will tell you, obviously the sooner, the better for the Narcan. If they wait too long, it could be too late.

So in my experience, they would usually hit them with that sooner than later, quick, a little quick initial check on them. And then they hit them with it. And in many cases, especially where I worked, that was a situation. They've seen it a million times. It was an overdose and that brings them back and saves their life. I don't know if there's any risk to giving that. I'm sure there's probably something going on there, but it's almost like risk worth reward You don't give it to them and then they die from it. That's that's a bigger issue I just don't know if the paramedics gave it to him. There's no indication of that In fact, all it says is like his family said. Oh, he didn't drink um alcohol or or do drugs So, I mean paramedics were called to the house, right when he had obviously they found him unresponsive in the bathroom Yeah, but narcon's like unresponsive in the bathroom. Yeah. But Narcon's like specifically for like opioids or cocaine or something like that.

Yeah, but they don't know he has this. It's not like all drugs. There's no way to tell. Let me ask you this. Did he transport him to the hospital to try to save him or did he pronounce him dead on scene? He was pronounced dead at the hospital. Okay. So that even tells me more that more than likely that was the case.

So more than likely when they got there, he was unresponsive, but they still, there was still something there. He had a pulse or whatever, where they felt like they could still save him. So they hit him with the Narcan and then obviously still transported him to the hospital to try to try to save him. And they couldn't, if he had been there unresponsive for a day and they showed up and he's passed away, obviously they wouldn't hit him with the Narcan, but the fact that he had Narcan in his system after going through all that, that's what I would say. I would say they probably hit him with Narcan in the bathroom when they

found him or on the way to the hospital. It could also have been the police officers because we had Narcan on us as well. As police officers, we actually had Narcan. We were able to administer it as well if we're there faster than EMTs. So you could have law enforcement show up in emergency situation and they administered the Narcan as well. Few different scenarios for sure. It's just, yeah, I mean, he could have just had a really bad stress reaction. He's already got high blood pressure. Most likely these clots had been forming in his lungs for a while. He just didn't know it. And it all came to a head when the stress of the fact that Tammy was going to be exhumed and they were going to find out she was murdered. And then he probably knew that Chad

and Lori were going to be like, it wasn't us. It was Alex. And then he thought he was going to be arrested. So he got all stressed out. That could be, it could be. Combination of that, taking medication that you probably shouldn't be taking, not going to see a doctor. Yeah. It's pretty much a recipe for disaster. Go to the doctor's kids. You feel sick. Yeah.

Well, he probably didn't believe in doctors because he needed a priesthood blessing from Chad. Didn't believe in not murdering people either. So I mean. Priesthood blessings probably would slip those freaking blood clots in his lungs man and i have to say like i hate saying this i hate saying this so don't i only mean it a little bit i kind of feel bad for alex just a tiny smidgen because it seems like he super really was manipulated by laurie and chad and it was right there at that

end where he kind of realized like it hit him. And he was like, oh, yeah, maybe all of this was fake because they ain't in Rexburg. They're in Hawaii living it up with over $400,000 of insurance money. And I'm here losing my mind because while they're gone and nobody can find them, I'm here ready to be picked up by the police at any time, ready for the picking, you know? So, you know, he may have been at that point realizing like this was all fake and maybe, you know. Well, think about what he said, right? So here we are in a situation where. I'm either a man of God or I'm not.

Yeah. So it's one of those things where, no excuse, I don't feel bad for him at all. No, no. It's not that those things where, no excuse, I don't feel bad for him at all, but he was carrying out what he did because he truly did believe in this religion. And as he's realizing that he might be a fall guy and that this all may be a farce, he says to Zulema exactly what you just said. Either I'm a man of God or I'm not. And what I translate that as, what I interpret that as is either I've been doing this for God or I've been being played this whole time and I'm the worst one out of all of them. There's only two outcomes here. And he at that moment realized my entire existence,

everything that I've been doing- Is now in question. May have been for some fucking scam that's not even real. And I think that in and of itself would stress you out. My selfish ass sister. Yeah. So that quote, that's what he's saying. One way or another, I'm going to find out

whether I've been doing this for God or not. And if I'm not, if I haven't been, I'm in trouble. But just the fact that like, it was a possibility for him that it was all not real. How true of a believer would you be if it was that easy for you that it was all not real. Well, how true a believer would you be if it was that easy for you to sort of be like, what am I doing? Am I the bad one? Am I the bad guy? You know what I mean? Like, I still feel like for people who are so devout, like they still wouldn't, you know, fall for that. Then they'd be like, oh, I'm still going to believe this and I'm

going to die on this hill. So I think that once again, like a lot of people, a lot of people who turn to religion, not that religion's bad or fake or like, I'm not saying that. But I think there's a lot of people who turn to religion, not because they truly believe, but because they want to believe in something, right? They want so badly to believe that there's a higher power, that there's something else out there, that it gives them meaning. They start feeling so small and insignificant. And it's not like, oh, I'm just this tiny speck on this big ass ball floating around in space. And when I die, I'm just going to die. And then nothing else happens. And then my life is over. And it was meaningless. And nobody's going to remember I was here. So instead of feeling that know, which is how I feel, you would feel like,

no, I have a higher purpose. I'm here for a reason. There's something up there waiting for me. And so I have to do the right thing here. And it's all going to lead somewhere. I think a lot of people need that to feel like not despondent and not like depressed and nihilistic. I don't think that's like a theory. I think that's been proven over history. You have these cults and these different organizations, these religious groups where the leaders of these organizations, they capitalize on individuals who are lost, who are looking, as you said, for that sense of purpose, who are looking for someone to be their father, to be their brother, to be their sister, to be their mother. They don't have anyone. They're

lost individuals. They've gone down a wrong road and they're looking to correct the course. And we saw, I remember watching the special on Waco where they're looking for these, the outcasts. They just want the outcasts that are looking for, to be part of something, to have that family, to have that sense of reasoning for existence. And Alex found that in this organization, in this cult. And I think he really went from being someone who was lost to feeling like he was important. And in that moment, when he realized that all of it may have been just made up, that was, it's a great, not that for him, no kudos,

but that's a really great way, a really great last quote for Alex. Either I'm a man of God or I'm not. And that's how he went out with that, with that thought, probably in his last moments thinking, depending on what you believe, not saying anybody out there, but if you're in the, he was going, he was going up or down, he was going up or down and he was about to find out. And a spoiler alert probably wasn't up. Interesting case.

Interesting episode. We're going to do one more part on this? Yeah. Okay. Kind of like I'm assuming obviously now everything's going to come out. The ending of this, everything's going to fall down for Chad and Lori when you get them back over here where they can be arrested, all that good stuff. Yes.

Well, yeah. It's not that simple, but we'll get there. It never is. It never is. It never is. Not with Lori and Chad. And any final words from you? No. I think we've been talking a lot.

We have. And I have a lot to think about, actually. Long episode. I got all contemplative when I was talking about Alex and him losing his purpose in life. And now I feel kind of like weird. So I have no thoughts. No thoughts. I have no words. At least I have lots of thoughts, but no words. Appreciate you guys being here. It's another long one. It's a great, it's been a great series. Really enlightening. It seems like a lot

of you, even though some of you have heard about this case before are getting something out of it. So we appreciate the support. Make sure you comment down below. Make sure you subscribe, turn notifications on, leave a review. Really appreciate it. Everyone have a good night. Stay safe out there. Bye.