Crime Weekly - S3 Ep133: The Daybell Doomsday Cult Murders: From Paradise to Prison (Part 7)

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

👒🔍 Download June’s Journey for free now using my link: https://woo.ga/gb2n1o https://woo.ga/gb2n1o JJ Vallow didn’t have the best start in life. Both of his parents struggled with drug addiction, and so when he was born premature in May of 2012, JJ was also addicted to drugs and it took months for doctors to safely wean him off the substances that had been coursing through his little body. But shortly before his first birthday, JJ was adopted by his uncle, Charles Vallow, and Charles’ pretty young wife, Lori Vallow, who had two children of her own, a son named Colby and a daughter named Tylee. Tylee and JJ hit it off immediately, and Tylee became a best friend and mini mother to her younger half brother. It seemed like JJ and Tylee were a part of one big happy family, so when they both vanished in September of 2019, and their normally attentive and loving mother Lori didn’t seem overly concerned about the fact that two of her children were missing, people started asking questions. But no one could have prepared for the answers we would get. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. Helix Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners! Go to HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly. This is their best offer yet and it won’t last long! With Helix, better sleep starts now. 2. Smalls Head to  Smalls.com/CRIMEWEEKLY and use promo code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout for 50% off your first order PLUS free shipping! 3. The Farmer's Dog Get 50% off your first box at TheFarmersDog.com/crimeweekly. 4. Hello Fresh Go to HelloFresh.com/crimeweekly50 and and use code crimeweekly50 for 50% off plus free shipping!

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are wrapping up with the Chad Daybell and the Lori Vallow series. This is part seven. I'm actually impressed that we kind of were able to do this in under eight parts. I thought it was going to be eight parts, but here we are basically tying up loose ends, final thoughts, you know, the conclusion so far

because it's not completely the conclusion. Chad Daybell hasn't even gone to trial yet. He won't be going to trial until, I believe, April of 2024. So there will be more. And we will do updates for Crime Weekly News when this happens. But yeah, how are you feeling so far, seven parts in? I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the case. Really dislike these people.

So I'm at the point now where it's like, where I kind of get with a lot of these cases where at the end of it, it's like, I'm so sick of hearing about these morons, but I understand that we have to, there's an arc, right? There's a beginning, there's a middle and there's an end and you got to go through the whole way. So excited to wrap it up and then excited to get started on a new case.

But yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing the end of it. I feel like there's still some questions I have. So I feel based on what I've read briefly about the script, it's kind of going to answer those. And hopefully it answers the questions, the remaining questions that anybody else has. And if not, weigh down in the comments below on YouTube or leave a review on Apple Podcasts and we'll be looking at those. All right. So you want to just dive in? Let's dive right into it.

Let's dive right into it. Let's dive right into it. So by mid-December of 2019, Chad and Lori were in Hawaii and they were renting a house at 4141 Queen Emma's Drive in the villas on the Prince in Kauai. This was a luxury gated complex, which happened to be right across the road from where Lori had lived with her previous husband, Charles Velo. Remember, they lived in Kauai, and it was only a 20-minute walk from the beach where she and Chad Daybell had tied the knot the month prior. After getting married, Chad and Lori had spent some time in California, I guess as like a honeymoon or to just avoid the police back in Rexburg. And then they returned to Kauai with a plan to live there until all the heat back in Rexburg died down.

But they didn't tell anyone where they were, not even their most trusted followers, including Alex Cox, Melanie Gibb, and Melanie Boudreau, who was now Melanie Pawlowski. So according to the neighbors in Kauai, they rarely saw Chad and Lori in their luxury furnished condo, which cost them over $6,000 a month to rent. $6,000 a month that was coming from the over $400,000 Chad had gotten from Tammy Daybell's life insurance when she had died just a few weeks before he married Lori. And at this point in like mid-December

2019, the news of JJ and Tylee's disappearance had not been getting a ton of media attention yet, so no one in Hawaii even knew that Chad and Lori were wanted by the police back in Idaho and Arizona. It seemed that Chad and Lori, while they were in Kauai, spent a lot of time at Lori's favorite place in the world, which was the Kauai Beach Resort, where she had returned multiple times throughout her life when she needed to escape and regroup. But Lori would be only granted a short reprieve this time because law enforcement back home were going to do whatever they could to smoke the newlyweds out and have the question of where JJ and Tylee were answered once and for all. It's so, when you always go back to Kauai, I always think about my time there and how remote it is.

And it seems like the perfect place. If I were trying to get away and not be on anybody's radar, it's literally the perfect place to go. It's so secluded. And honestly, like I said to you, when we covered Amber Jackson, it's like a lot of people, and I'm not saying everyone, but it's just, it felt to me like a lot of people who were just trying to get away from their own life. Maybe not even a bad way, but just trying to escape the hustle and bustle of whatever they were going through before they left there. Because everyone's so low key,

mild mannered. It's like the stereotypical thing you would think of when you think of people who live in Hawaii. Yeah. Cause, cause have you ever been to Hawaii? No. Oh my God. You have to go.

Yeah. Favorite place on earth. Hands down. All the places I've been. What's that? Lori too. Lori too. Yeah.

You ain't wrong. But like Oahu for everybody who's been to Oahu, they know it's, Oh, it's still beautiful, but it feels more like touristy, right you would expect where kawaii is like a little bit off the beaten path yeah off the beaten path it's really filmed jurassic park part of it and very lush tropical yeah it's it's so it's still majority of it is still island like

we we were out there traveling for a case and 15 minutes from the main little area right near the airport. It's just all jungle and you can get lost out there really quickly. And I feel like that's probably why she enjoyed that place so much because there wasn't a lot of attention. And if you had reporters or something like that or investigators, it's so much harder to reach them to get to them out there. Here's the thing. Like, you're right. They could have gone to Kauai and they could have sort of stayed off the map.

Like they could have gotten a little hot on the beach somewhere in the jungle. They could have kept a low profile, but they didn't do that. They went to the most expensive place to live. They rented a $6,000 a month, like luxury villa. And then they spent all their time at the Kauai Beach Resort. So they could have.

They're on the run. They murdered a bunch of people. At the very least were an accessory to the murder of a bunch of people. And instead of being like, remember that dude from Amber Jackson, the guy who lived like in the yurt? Yeah, of course I do. Lori and Chad could have lived in a yurt. They could have been like, Chad could have like grown a beard.

Lori could have cut her hair. They could have, you know. Yeah, Greg was the stereotypical guy for that island. Good old Greg. They could have been so much more low profile, but they weren't. They're so blatant, so audacious that they literally just,

instead of acting like they're on the run which i mean technically they were and they should have been they acted like they were on vacation right yeah and i've tried kawaii beach club i'm not familiar with that but again it's not like i'm an expert on kawaii it's like expensive to go there like you can stay there or you can pay for like a day pass and stuff but it's expensive to go there and it must be on the other side of the island maybe that's why because i stayed most closely to like the airport and stuff you know what else is like traumatic well i feel like as a parent would have been traumatic for me the last time that laurie had gone to hawaii which um well

actually no i believe she was in hawaii when tammy davis was murdered but the time before that when charles vella was still alive remember and laur Lori like left for like 55 days, she had taken Tylee and they'd gone to Kauai and they stayed at the Kauai Beach Resort. That's where they stayed. And now she returns there with Chad and she's at the same place that she spent this time with her daughter after she knows her daughter has been murdered. Whether or not she was directly involved in the act of the murder, like she was okay with it. She allowed it to happen. She knew it was happening.

And now she's back at this place where I feel like there would be so many memories, you know, of you and your daughter. And you're just unfazed by it. I'm not giving you an excuse, but I really do believe there was part of it. And I know I said that, and there are multiple pieces of evidence that suggest they knew what they were doing was wrong

and were still doing it because it got them closer to whatever their goals were. But I do think, I don't even know if you're going to disagree with this, but I do think there is a part of Lori who did believe in this whole religion. I don't think she was completely making it up. And so maybe her way of justifying it was, you know, that wasn't no, that was no longer JJ and Tylee. That was the dark spirits who had taken over their bodies. They were already gone. I just got rid of the dark spirits that inhabited their bodies afterwards. So maybe that was her weird, sick way of rationalizing and moving on with life. What else could it be? How do you think she's able to go out there, put a smile on her face and being the same place where, like you said, she had just taken her daughter not too long before. How do you think she's processing that and able to just function just because she's a crazy bitch like yeah i mean how do serial killers like go and and murder people at night and then come home and act like the perfect family man and father and stuff you know like so that's what that's what the level you're putting

her on i'm not saying you're wrong that's the level you're putting around where she's just like she's slicing she could kill anybody wouldn't she wouldn't bat an eye it means nothing to her i think it means nothing to her okay i think that i think that human life means nothing to her. I think it means nothing to her. Okay. I think that human life means nothing to her. And I think she's selfish and all she cares about is her and what she wants in that moment. And I don't know. Like, yeah, she's definitely twisted. And, you know, maybe she believed it, but it was because she told herself she believed it so that she could compartmentalize and she could justify. Right.

Which is not any less messed up. No, I agree. And I've said to you before, the best liars are the ones who actually believe their own bullshit. So you might be onto something there where part of it was she did, she told that lie so often she started to believe her own lies. And we know Lori's a good liar. And it makes her a better liar because of it. We know she's a good liar because she tricked tons of law enforcement, tons of people like government agents, everyone. She had like completely convinced that she was this amazing mother to the very end in which we're going to talk about this, like to the very end, even her own family members who were like, wow, these kids haven't been seen in months. We're still like, well, we believe Lori. She would never do this stuff like that. So, yeah, unfortunate.

On December 21st, 2019 the rexburg police and the fbi put out a joint press release stating that they were searching for the two children who were tied to the suspicious death of tammy daybell and the children's mother and stepfather were wanted for questioning in connection with their disappearances but they were not cooperating with law enforcement in fact police had already spoken to the couple about the location of JJ, and they'd been told the seven-year-old was staying with friends in Arizona, but police had figured out this was a lie. So the press release is basically like, Lori and Chad are lying.

When Chad and Lori realized they'd been exposed and could no longer even walk around Hawaii with anonymity, they hired attorney Sharn Bartholick, who released a statement on their behalf on Christmas Eve. The statement said, quote, Chad Daybell was a loving husband and has the support of his children in this matter. Lori Daybell is a devoted mother and resents assertions to the contrary. We look forward to addressing the allegations once they End quote. The statement did not say anything about JJ and Tylee, where they were, nothing. Just like we look forward to addressing the allegations once they've moved beyond speculation and rumor, which by that point they absolutely had. So like these people are delusional

and they seem to find attorneys who are also delusional because what kind of attorney knowing the facts would make this kind of statement? I don't even understand. A lot of them are just looking for a check. Yeah. If the money clears, they're good with it. So once again, they're paying for an attorney

with like money that Chad gets from his dead wife that he helped kill. And also Lori's got a little bit of a bank account built up too, right? From Charles's money as well, right? Well, Charles removed her from the life insurance, right? So like I think that she and Chad were planning to get like Charles's money and then Tammy's money. But she was still getting the Social Security though, right? She was still getting Tylee and JJ's Social Security.

But that's like like five thousand dollars a month you know pretty much nothing compared to the almost five hundred thousand that chad got from tammy yeah i guess so so five grand i'll take it i know if but is that worth all the people you killed is that no no no i'm just saying like she's out there with her own money i'm sure i'm sure she's spending that money jj and tylee's money like it's her own yeah for sure she was yeah you know i mean it's like her own money. I'm sure she's spending that money, JJ and Tylee's money, like it's her own. Yeah, for sure she was. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like her own private bank account. Yeah. She was still using Tylee's ATM card that the social security benefits were being loaded onto. There you go. There you go. Sick. And I mean, I remember this, like I was following the case from the first moment, you know, it made the news, but it hadn't made the

news like nationally and hugely yet. Right. It was just like there's something going on. These kids have been missing. The parents won't say where they are. And so I was kind of watching and I was like, this is about to blow up. And even then I was like, these kids have to be somewhere safe. Like who would do this? I remember thinking that I remember like listening to but then all the cult stuff started coming out in the dark and light spirits and i was like oh well yeah yeah this ain't good yeah that's that's not good um but i remember it did right around the time of of you know right going into january of 2020 that's when it started hitting the national media circus and it was

everywhere every network you turned on every time you turn on your computer, all the headlines were talking about that. But throughout December, it was like very small kind of media attention. And then it blew up. And the police did this on purpose, right? Because they wanted to be able to smoke Lori and Chad out no matter where in the world they were hiding. And that's exactly what happened. Yeah, good police work. I mean, they felt like they had their people. They had a strategy and they implemented it. And you don't always have that. You don't want to give them all your cards while they're across the world, you know? So you have to just kind of play the long game. And I guess they probably profiled Lori and Chad just knowing that the type of people they were,

it was going to be hard for them to just disappear or lay low. It just wasn't in their DNA. Yeah. And I mean, understand by this time, they've already done a ton of investigation. They've already executed search warrants at Lori and Alex's and Melanie's apartments. They've found the storage unit with all of JJ and Tylee's stuff in it. They've already executed search warrants at Chad Daybell's house. They have an understanding of what's going on with these people and kind of how bad it is. And the police claim they always knew that Lori and

Chad were in Kauai, which does make sense because you could easily just find out if they'd bought tickets. But for some reason, they kind of wanted, I guess, Chad and Lori to come back, most likely because they didn't want to have to go through the whole business of extraditing them and this, this and that. And at that point, they can't charge them with murder, right? They don't even know that the kids are dead. They just know that Tammy Daybell died under suspicious circumstances. They're going to exhume her body, but the results haven't come back from that autopsy yet. The kids are missing. Charles Vallow was killed by Alex Cox, but soon Alex Cox is going to be dead. So they don't really want to like just go to Hawaii and be like, you guys are under arrest. They would like for Chad and Lori to come to them and make things easier. But Chad and Lori are not going to do that.

Shocker. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. So once the press release went out and Lori and Chad were found out, things moved pretty quickly from there. On January 16th, 2020, the state of Idaho filed a child protection action, which ordered Lori Vallow to produce her two missing children within five days. And on January 25th, law enforcement in Kauai served Lori with this order. The following day, the Kauai Police Department served both Lori and Chad with search warrants for their persons, as well as for the rented black Ford Explorer that they were driving around the island and the rented home they'd been living in. Now, in all of these places, there was no sign of JJ or Tylee in person, but police did find both of their birth certificates in the car.

They also found Tylee's ATM card, which had the social security benefits loaded onto it, which was still active and being used even though no one had seen Tylee since September. They found JJ's iPad and another iPad, which had been logged into JJ's Apple ID. So what I think is happening is Lori's using the iPad to communicate with Larry

and Kay Woodcock, most likely to pretending to be Jay Jay, just kind of by herself sometime, but they didn't believe it. Now on site at the time of Lori and Chad being served with these warrants was Nate Eaton of East Idaho News. And we're going to play a clip of what happened at this point. Chad and Lori Daybell were served with two search warrants just hours ago. Law enforcement officers from eastern Idaho, along with federal agents and the Kauai Police Department, pulled Lori and Chad over. They were driving a black SUV. They pulled into this resort where I am standing. They put Chad into one vehicle, Lori into another. That's when their vehicle was seized and they had no way to get home. We had a chance to ask them so many questions that need answers.

Lori, Nate Eaton with East Idaho News. Can you tell me where your kids are? Where are your kids? No comment? They've been missing for four months. You have nothing to say? You're over here in Hawaii? Where are your children? Yeah, why don't you just give us a comment? Just tell us where they are. Chad, where are Lori's kids? What happened to Tammy, Chad? Can you tell us what happened to Tammy? Why have you guys been in Hawaii for so long? Listen, just tell people what's happening. There's people around the country praying for your children, praying for you guys.

Why don't you give us answers? That's great. That's great. That's great that they're praying for you, praying for your kids. What? You have nothing to say? Did you do something to your children? Are your children still alive?

That's a simple question. I've got three kids of my own. I can tell you every minute where my kids are at. Where are your children? What a great clip. I have three children. I love that clip. I mean, it's so, I'm pointing out the obvious here, but it's such a simple question. Where are your kids? Where are your kids? It shouldn't be a secretive thing.

Just from the jump, I could look at this clip knowing their religious background and think, oh, they're safe somewhere. They're going through some ritual thing. That's possible. But you have to know, it's clearly not good with whatever's going on with the kids, because if it were, they would just simply say it right there. End of discussion. Yeah. The kids are off at this religious retreat. We know a lot of people don't support it. So we've been quiet about it. You know, here they are. Leave us alone. We're allowed to do what we want with our kids. The fact that they're saying no comment, it's not like these guys are like famous people. It's crazy.

It's absolutely insane. Lori thinks she's a famous person. Look at her acting like she's sitting there. Her hair is freshly blown out. She's got her sunglasses on. She's like, no comment, no comment. She's like breezing along. And I think it's interesting how throughout the clip that I showed you, and this goes on for like 10 minutes, Nate just like following them.

He's like hammering them. Yeah. And Lori keeps glancing at Chad. Not for direction, I think, but to make sure that he stays strong and silent. Yeah, he ain't saying shit. He's not saying shit, but he's being asked about Tammy and what happened to her, and Lori glances over at him. And you can see that Lori keeps her face very stoic, no expression the whole time. But Chad is making expressions. When Nate Eaton says, Lori, what happened to your kids? Chad, are the kids okay? Chad goes like this.

Like he closes his mouth like this and his eyebrows raise. When they ask about Tammy, again, he kind of like does this thing with his mouth and then his eyebrows raise almost like he's trying to like keep something in like it's a very weird sort of facial expression to make almost as if he's like you don't want to know kind of thing like do you see it oh you definitely see it he looks like a dummy and i wanted to say something else he just looks like a dummy he just looks like a puppet like the only thing that we're missing is laurie vallow's hand up his ass that's the only thing we're missing but but i will say something and they'll never confirm this, but I'll tell you what. There are times where law enforcement will use the media to their advantage and they

may not have enough, but they know that the media doesn't have the same requirements when it comes to interviewing someone. And I wonder, I truly do, just looking at that. And I worked with the Kauai Police Department. I can tell you, out of all the police departments I worked with on breaking homicide, they were one of the ones that were most receptive to allowing outside help to look at the case. That just tells you that they're open to new things. And the reason I bring that up is because I wouldn't be surprised. First off, it looks like they were in like a rental car or something there, right? Like something from the island. In fact, it looked like it was an

enterprise parking lot where they were, right? So I wonder- I think they were in the parking lot of the Kauai Beach Resort. That's where they were going. Beach Resort in a rental car. Obviously, it's not their car from home. And so I wonder what search warrant would have been justified to take that rental car because what are you expecting to find that maybe evidence of the kids or something. But either way, even if it's a weak warrant, you get that warrant, you tip off Nate Eaton that they're going to be taking their car and you just tell them where it's going to

happen and when. And for him to go, he couldn't get home because they couldn't get home. So it's just like, like I said, not a collaborative effort, but just something like, they couldn't get home. Because they couldn't get home. They couldn't get home. Like I said, not a collaborative effort, but just something like, hey, Mr. Eaton, we heard you're out on the island. Because, again, he's coming all the way from Idaho. I wouldn't be shocked if there was something, maybe an anonymous source, maybe someone from internal that said, hey, you might want to check this area around this time and they may be available for an interview. And then they take that car, maybe knowing there's nothing going to be found in this rental. But now they're going to have 10 to 15 awkward minutes where this guy is going to be able to pound him because it really seemed like he was ready for it. And nobody was stopping him.

And he seemed prepared. This made Nate Eaton's career, this case. Like, this is before nobody knew who he was. And now, you know, he is like in the true crime world, I would say, a household name, especially considering like all the crazy things that happen. Not to be confused with who? Brian Enten. That other dude, Brian Enten from Gabby Petito. Who will be at CrimeCon, by the way. I'm actually looking forward to meeting him.

And so will Nate Eaton, most likely, because he was there last year. That's right. He was. You're right. So they'll both be there. And'm actually looking forward to meeting him. And so will Nate Eden, most likely, because he was there last year. That's right. He was. You're right. So they'll both be there, and we'll try not to confuse them when we're there. I promise I will not confuse them. Good. Because you will remind me not to.

I'll pretend like I don't know you if you do. I'm like, I don't know this chick. As we're approaching, you can whisper in my ear, like they do in the Dove Wars Prada, like, this is Nate Eden, East Idaho News. And I'll be like gotcha gotcha no i mean he'll he'll never admit to it and i don't like i said i don't think it was like this real secretive thing but if he got a tip that this was going to happen and when sure got a tip because he just seemed like he was guns a blazing he was ready locked and loaded

and he was not gonna he was not gonna step off take the pedal. He was like, I know what's going down in about 10 minutes and I'm just coming after them. And I'm sure all law enforcement agencies were reading, profiling that video, looking for their behaviors. They probably had people watching it. That's their way to question them without questioning them. So little trick, I might be wrong, I might be right,

but I would definitely try something like that. I would do it. And I mean, when might, might, I might be wrong. I might be right, but I would definitely try something like that. I would do it. And I mean, when he's like, I have three kids, I know where they are every single minute. Like it is, it's impactful. And then he's like, everyone's praying, everyone's praying for your kids. And she's like, that's great. That's super cold hearted, man. Great job. Great job by, by Nate. the police tipped them off. Because like nothing's wrong, but not saying, as you said, something so simple. Where are the kids? Why can't you tell us where they are? That was the time. I mean, up until then, Lori had been telling everyone she talked to, you know, her family, friends, everyone, that JJ and Tylee were just fine. She just wasn't

telling anyone where they were so that she could keep them as safe as possible. But when this footage came out of Lori and Chad dressed in beachwear, clearly enjoying a luxurious and relaxing vacation without the two kids, and when people heard how cavalier and cold Lori sounded when Nate Eaton told her everyone was worried about JJ and Tylee and praying for them, even the people closest to the couple began to question like, what's really going on? And I'm sure like lots of Lori's friends like Melanie Gibb were like, we're the only people she knows. If JJ and Tylee aren't with us, where are they? We're the ones she trusts. Could there be other people that she trusts? We've never heard of them. We don't know where they could possibly be. Yeah, not good. Not good. And this interview is very, very telling. They said a lot without

saying anything. Lori's oldest son, Colby Ryan, said, quote, she just seemed so dismissive. And just to see her walking by and not answering questions struck a deep chord of anger in me. When I saw her and Chad there, I lost it. End quote. Lori's brother, Adam Cox, said, quote, Lori and Chad were on the beach being married and carrying on. I just thought, what is happening? How are they able to do this? The kids are missing. It's not right, end quote. April Raymond, Lori's friend in Kauai, said, quote, it was just such an empty answer. And her reaction and her behavior did not match the gravity of the situation. People all over the world were losing sleep over Tylee and JJ, and their own mother was so dismissive and flippant at the mention of them, end quote. April also said that

Lori and Chad had been regulars at the temple there in Kauai and they'd been telling everyone there like, oh, we're being wrongly accused, wrongly attacked and maligned by law enforcement and the media. And like, you know, we're so sorry for all the trouble we're causing. But you guys obviously understand like people don't believe in this stuff and they think we're religious zealots and we're just we have to keep our kids safe. And the presence of police officers serving them search warrants and serving them warrants to, like, produce the kids and cameras following them everywhere. This still did not force Chad and Lori into hiding. They continued to lounge by the pool at the resort and make the most out of their beach vacation. And this is actually a

new clip that we hadn't seen before, but it just came out during the trial. And it shows Chad and Lori being served with this order to produce the kids within five days. And you can see, once again, how she just is not phased. She doesn't care. This is Ali, sir. Do you have any questions regarding that? So it is 1439 hours on January 22nd. Any questions? You have any questions for that?

No? Okay. First off, that whole plan to like work on those abs, Chab, you're slacking, bud. Secondly. What did you say? That whole workout plan? Yeah. He just started.

Okay. Give him a break. Clearly. Clearly. Abs, the tan, he's slacking on all of it. And that's coming from a guy who walks around most of the time to translucent. So, I mean, damn. What do you think about his face during this clip?

Like, it kind of felt like he was like super concerned and super anxious and Lori's just chill. Every time I see him now, I just think of a box of oatmeal. That's all I can,

I can't get you, you just completely, you just did that to me and I just can't get past it. He just, he just looks really unintelligent. He just looks like he's just there

as a puppy for Lori and you could tell just by their body language like who's in charge in charge who's running the show by the way it just it is very obvious it's very obvious that she's the one who's pulling the strings pulling the strings yeah i agree i mean these this body language is not good for chatty as a guy you think he'd step up oh let me see what do we got here as our protector, like you guys gotta go. He doesn't say a word. He defers to her. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. And I don't know what else to say. I mean, the fact that we had to get to this point where we have to serve her. I cut some stuff out of this clip, by the way, because a lot of the clip was they came in, they gave her the paperwork. She takes it and she just kind of sits there and she's looking at it.

And maybe twice she glances up at them like, you're still here. You're still here. And then finally, the third time she glances up, she's like, did you need something? And they're like, yeah, do you have any questions? And she's like, and they're like, OK. And then they leave. And she's literally so like she's not concerned. She's not phased. In fact, she looks at them like servants. Like, you brought me my drink. Why are you still here? This doesn't bother me. If you were expecting a reaction out of me, if you were expecting some answers, if you

were expecting me to start crying and freaking out, like, I refuse to give you that satisfaction. I'm going to stay stone-faced the entire time. While Chad over there looks like he's about to drop dead, sweating bullets from, like, anxiety and stress. And like he's like looking over at it like as if he could see anything from his point of view. He just looks so confused. No, I mean, I'm sure she knows that this is an effort that's going on with federal agencies, local agencies. They're all working together, even the people serving it.

They're all, it's all coming from the same source. It's coming from the law enforcement agencies that are closing in on them. And I don't know if that officer where we see the footage was wearing a body cam, which is a little bit more discreet or was he, or did he have an actual camcorder out, you know, where he was just filming it, which they do from time to time on high profile cases. So it might've been very obvious to her that she was being recorded. And I do think, again, that law enforcement was aware that they were going to be served at this point and anything that they could have, she knows they're going to see. So she's not going to say

much because again, she knows she's on the fire right now and the walls are closing in on her. But she doesn't look like she knows the walls are closing in on her at all. I think she does. I think she knows this is not going to go. I think at this point she knows like this is not going to go away. But what do you do? The damage has already been done. Whatever you set up to try to protect yourself from being caught is there. Either it's going to work or it's not. The problem for her is she's realizing they're not going to go away. The fact that she is their parent is not going to be enough for her to say, it's none of your business. She is now finding out the hard way that the government can step in and force you to provide your children, to show your children to us. Yeah,

they're your kids, but we have a right to know. We're in fear of their lives. We're in fear of their health. And this, contrary to what you might have thought, we do have the legal ability to force you to produce your children. And I think she might have felt like this was going to go away and people were going to let her live her life and do what she wanted with her kids. And maybe then she would come up with some elaborate plan of what happened to them. But she didn't have that time. They were on her and now she sees here, she's got five days. Got five days. It's not a lot of time to come up with this elaborate story that you're going to expect everyone to believe. Well, on that note, with five days, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. All right. So we're back and Derek's like, I'm actually interested. What did she do within that five days? Well, she did nothing. So we're back. And Derek's like, I'm actually interested. Like, did she? Yeah. What did she do within that five days? Well, she did nothing. So that January 30th deadline.

What about this high profile lawyer? You got nothing for him? Well, which high profile? The lawyer who put out the initial statement and said, you know, we'll respond. I say high profile. When you have like something besides speculation and rumor. No, she just the January 30th deadline came and went and still laurie and chad did not produce the kids they kept lounging on the beach they were unbothered or appeared to be unbothered by the whole media circus and maybe it's because they thought that none of it mattered right because the end times were quickly approaching

like maybe they were just trying to wait it out and then everybody would see. Chad Daybell had written about the end of the world several times, and he said he'd had visions of two earthquakes hitting the Wasatch Front in Utah. And these two quakes would be the sign of an impending judgment day. In a September 2015 blog post, Chad wrote, quote, the first one is moderate and it disrupts life for a few weeks. Many older brick buildings crumble and roads suffer damage, but repairs are made quickly, end quote. So this was like the first earthquake. And Chad had described this first earthquake as being a 5.7 magnitude. And strangely enough, a 5.7 magnitude earthquake would hit the area of Magna, Utah on March 18th, 2020. Guy got to play the lottery ticket because that's just pure luck.

I mean, right. And like also COVID hitting. When did COVID hit? Like right around that time. March, right? Yeah. March of 2020 is when. Oh, 2020.

You're right. Yeah. Jesus. The world shut down. So like if you're Lori and Chad and you're looking for like affirmation that the world's coming to an end, we've got earthquakes, we've got plague, pestilence, all this stuff happening. And I mean, remember how crazy 2020 was because it wasn't just like. There were points where I did think the world was coming to an end. Honestly, I was like, this could go really bad. Exactly. So like

you've got COVID, but then there was weird stuff happening, man. Like I remember there was something going out with like locusts, like locusts were like taking over or something at some point. Like, yo, they may have looked at these things as signs. Signs. They were right. They were right. But then again, this would require them to actually believe in their shit. So you're saying there is a part of them that does buy this whole thing. You know, you can convince yourself of something to justify your actions very easily, depending on like your mental state and how badly you want to sort of eliminate responsibility for your actions.

So, yeah, I think that they convince themselves of this eventually. But I don't think they started out believing this shit, if you want to know. No, I think I think you're probably right. I think you're spot on there. There's definitely when you say things for so many years, you got to kind of buy the world didn't end. I mean, at least not technically, I guess. It could have. And we could all be living in some sort of weird, like, matrix reality. And in a way, the world did change in 2020 but as far as i know it did not end um unless we're filming crime weekly and i'm not in heaven i mean which or wherever you think we go or like a simulation of some kind yeah that's true the plug man it's in the back of the head i don't know anymore man i really. I really don't. So on February 20th, 2020, Lori Vela was arrested at her Kauai condo and charged with two counts of

felony desertion of a child. She was booked into the Kauai Police Department on a $5 million bond, pending her extradition back to Rexburg, Idaho. During her time in jail, her new husband, Chad Daybell, made sure to be in constant contact with her every single day, whether he was visiting her in person or calling her on the phone. At the end of February, while Lori was still behind bars, Chad Daybell flew back to Rexburg. And when he was asked about the kids at the airport, I think he was at like the rent-a-car place, like bringing the car back, he calmly responded that they were safe. And then he returned to the Salem home that he had shared with his deceased wife, Tammy. The following week, Lori was flown from Hawaii to Idaho and transferred into the custody of the FBI and Rexburg detectives. While in custody,

many of Lori's family members wanted to speak to her. And then Lori's sister, Summer, and Lori's mother, Janice, publicly defended her in May of 2020, stating that they believed JJ and Tylee were still alive and well. All she'd need to do was show proof that the kids are alive and are well. Can you understand why she's refusing to do that? You know, it seems simple. It did to me. Janice Cox is Lori Vallow's mother.

She says she doesn't understand all of the reasons for Lori's actions. But she doesn't believe her daughter could have gone from doting mother to cold-blooded child killer. All I know is the woman that she is. I did not see any great change in Lori. Have you asked your sister where the kids are? No. I've talked to her a couple of times. Summer Shifflett is Lori's sister. She says Lori has spoken to her from jail. And she said to me, you know me and you know I've always taken care of my kids and I do know that. So what is the scenario that Tylee and JJ are still alive?

Well, to us, we believe they are because we know Lori. And that's, we have seen her dedication. Are they in a bunker somewhere? Are they with friends? Where do you think they are? We don't know. We wish we knew. We don't know.

But we also don't know what Lori has been through. She was being threatened. She was being followed. Who was threatening her? Well, Kay was threatening her. And her brothers. They're very upset about Charles' death. There was a lot of threats made to Lori. I've spoken to people who live near Chad and and they say we follow Chad. They look at Chad like he's some sort of Messiah. I don't know Chad

very well. I've only met him one time. I've never heard anything about him self-proclaiming to be a prophet or anything else of that nature or trying to get people to follow him. We can't see Lori blindly following anybody. Can you? No, we can't see it. You don't think that following anybody. Can you? No, we can't see it. You don't think that Chad brainwashed her? No, no he couldn't do it. It's not possible. These two say they think Lori really believes she is protecting her children, but they say they wish she would bring them forward. It's been devastating not to see Tylee and JJ in such a long time. We love them

so much and it's been devastating not to see Lori.e and JJ in such a long time. We love them so much. And it's been devastating not to see Lori. Is there any part of the dark recesses of your minds that say maybe she cracked and maybe this is not going to end up well? We have gone through those scenarios probably a hundred times. If something has happened to those those children it is not by her doing and it's not by her permission she couldn't crack enough to do harm to her children so many ironic statements in that interview like chat like laurie wouldn't follow anybody blindly blindly they know laurie okay yeah well no but they also they're blindly following her they got nothing to confirm that she didn't do anything to her children other than the fact that they just are blindly following the fact that she wouldn't do that.

Yeah, but then later. Even though everything suggests she did. Later they're like, oh, Chad manipulated Lori. But here they're like, no way, not possible. Like the mom, Janice, he's like, oh, do you think she like followed Chad? And she's like, it could never have. It could never be Lori. Lori have it could never be Laurie Laurie it could never be her like but my other son but my other son Alex now now that on the other hand

and that's the other thing I think that they even Laurie when she says this statement to them I would never you know when she's talking I would never you know me I would never hurt my children well she's not she's not technically wrong right I? She's not lying. She didn't do anything. It was Alex, allegedly. So it's one of those things where she's not obviously telling the truth, but in her way, that's how she's justifying it. She's not lying. She's not lying, but she ain't telling the truth. And what gets me is Janice Cox even told this reporter, whoever she was talking to, that she had talked to J.J. briefly on October 1st, even though no one had seen him alive since September 23rd. And we know, based on Alex Cox's movements, that J.J. was not alive on October 1st. So I still can't figure out if Janice was lying or if somehow I think she was lying,

because if Lori is going to be able to do a convincing impression of JJ, she's going to do it on Kay and Larry Woodcock, not Janice Cox. So I think Janice was was lying, honestly, in my opinion, allegedly to try to, like, support her daughter. But in the end, I mean, how did that work out for you? Yeah, didn't work out too well. I mean, how did that work out for you? Yeah. Didn't work out too well. I mean, this will be the first time we've heard of a mother who doesn't have anything to substantiate what she believes, but her motherly instinct is to protect her child. And yeah, obviously, I don't think from everything we've talked about over these seven parts, there's nothing to suggest that she or her other daughter her other daughter were involved. So we'll give them that, but- No, I definitely don't think they were.

Yeah, they weren't involved. And so it's one of those things where I get it. You want to protect your daughter. You're hoping that she's not the type of person that she's being described to be by others. You've convinced yourself that she's not. Yeah. But overall, we see it all the time with parents, right? If sometimes, even though you tried your best, you raised a monster, even if it wasn't your doing. And that's just. But it usually is.

I'll just say that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know about that. Yeah. It can be. Dude, in all the cases that we have covered, Casey Anthony anthony scott peterson from what i've seen about his family they seem pretty whatever they're defending their kid yeah they're defending him that's the thing they're defending him when he confessed and led police

to the bodies of his children they don't want to see their son killed i don't care i don't care what you want to see i don't give a shit what you want to see. You do not have the balls or the audacity. Like you can believe whatever you want in your heart amongst yourselves. You can be like, oh, poor Christopher, poor Christopher. Shanann was so mean. But you do not open your mouth in public and say that this kid, this guy, this man, I don't want to call him a man because he's a piece of living shit that he had a reason or he's not like a monster like you think like no one wants to hear it and it's a it's a literal like slap to the the reputation and the memories of bella and cc and shenan and nico so literally

chris is chris watts's mother can fuck off so if it was your son or daughter same situation yeah i feel like you've already asked me this or others have and one million percent like yeah my my son in my heart i'm gonna be like i feel bad for him i don't want to see anything bad happen to him but i'm not gonna have the balls after like the trouble that he's caused and the pain that he's caused to open my mouth publicly to the general like the general population that knows he's a monster and that that's clearly to me just shows that you've enabled this dude for his whole life because he's made the most gravest mistake the he's done the most horrendous thing that you can think of a person doing and you still feel like you need to open your mouth and like tell us not to be mean to him or like tell us that we should be understanding him more like this is the thing

he's never been held accountable for shitty behavior so he continues to do shitty behavior and when he does the shittiest thing a person can do you still open your mouth to defend him and no one wants to hear it bitch no one i'll say nothing else chris watts's mother can literally just like she she can go away she never has to open her mouth again. And I hope she really never does. I'm sorry I brought it up. Okay. All right, let's move on.

We're back. Let's move on. So just about a month after Janice and Summer made these ridiculous statements to the public, on June 9th, 2020, the FBI executed a search warrant at the property of Chad Daybell. And it was actually Chad's own careless statements via text message that had led the authorities to the places where the remains of J.J. and Tylee would be discovered. Because remember, in a text to Tammy Daybell on September 9th, 2019, the day after Tylee was last seen at Yellowstone National Park with her mother,

Lori, her brother J.J., and her uncle Alex, Chad had claimed to have spotted a raccoon on his property. And then he shot the rac property, and then he shot the raccoon, and then he burned it before burying it in their pet cemetery. Detective Ron Ball of the Rexburg Police Department, when he saw this text message, he thought it was odd, considering that raccoons are nocturnal animals who don't ever really come out during the daylight. And this text had been sent at 11 in the morning. A neighbor of Chad's, Matt Price, who lived across the street from the Daybells, also told the police that he

had heard a gunshot that day. He had also watched as law enforcement dug on Chad's property for two days, and the locations that they were focused on were also locations that had drawn his attention in the weeks before the death of Tammy Daybell. He told the police that the Daybells usually didn't have bonfires, but they'd had a big one the previous fall and two or three big ones that spring. Matt also said that a week before Tammy had died, she and Chad had come over to his house to buy pumpkins as they did every fall, but Chad seemed different. Quote, he was strange. He was different. He didn't talk a lot, didn't make eye contact with us very much. Normally, he would, end quote. So with all of this information, Detective Ron Ball asked the FBI's cellular analysis survey team to compare the dates, times, and locations that Alex Cox had been on Chad's property on four separate occasions during September of 2019. And on September 9th, Alex had spent most of the morning

that he was there by the fire pit. On September 23rd, the day after Jay Jay had last been seen at Lori's apartment in Alex's arms by Melanie Gibb, Alex Cox had been on Chad's property by the pond for 17 minutes. So when law enforcement arrived at Chad's house on the morning of June 9th, they were let into the house by Chad's two oldest sons, Seth and Garth Daybell. When Chad was told that detectives had a search warrant to dig up his yard, he called his lawyer. Now, Chad had been given the option to leave the property or to remain there with an officer during the search, and Chad had decided to sit in his SUV across the street. I'm going to read directly from the book The Doomsday Mother by John Glatt because he described perfectly what happened next.

Quote, around 9 a.m., the ERT began marking off parts of the backyard into grids and setting up blue canopies and tarps. By now, almost 100 law enforcement officers were on the property, each with his or her own designated tasks. Five cadaver dogs were led through the entire four-acre property looking for any clandestine graves. Officers also conducted a systematic line search pacing up and down the backyard with rakes on the hunt for any ground disturbances. Using satellite imagery, the FBI artist made sketches to pinpoint where each of the pings from Alex Cox's phone had been while another team focused on finding the pet cemetery Chad's texts had mentioned. They soon discovered it, ringed by

a circle of bricks with a statue of a dog nearby, and concentrated on how best to excavate the suspected gravesite. A separate ERT was also working over by the east side of the pond, where Alex's phone had pinged for several minutes on September 23rd. Cadaver dogs soon zeroed in on a small area by the pond underneath a tree, which had a slightly raised berm two feet by four feet, surrounded by longer and thicker weeds, end quote. Glatt goes on to talk about how JJ's body was discovered and how the coroner came to remove it from the shallow grave at around 11 a.m.

And Chad Daybell, who'd been watching the search from his SUV intently for hours, parked at the edge of his property, he started to get super anxious. And Detective Hermosillo, who'd been in charge of watching Chad, said, quote, He had the phone in his right hand and was continually looking over his right shoulder. He would talk on the phone for a second and then continue looking back pretty intently. End quote. When Chad saw a flurry of activity on his property by the pond around 11 a.m., he got out of his SUV for a better look, and Hermosillo said that Chad took off his hat, ran his fingers nervously through his hair,

looked down at the ground, put his hat back on, and got back into his vehicle. At 11.03 a.m., almost as if she sensed something was going on, Chad received a call from Lori Vallow, and she was calling him from prison. And when he answered, she sensed something in his voice because she was like, are you okay? To which Chad responded, quote, no, they're searching the property, end quote. Chad told Lori that they had a search warrant, they were looking for the kids, but quote, I'm glad you called. We'll see what transpires, end quote. Just a few minutes after this phone call, Chad in his SUV slammed on the gas and he basically tried to like escape. He tried to get out of there, but he was pursued by law enforcement who finally pulled him over about a mile from his home and placed him under arrest at 1130 a.m.

An hour and a half later, the charred remains of Tylee were recovered. That night, Chad was booked into the Fremont County Jail and charged with two felony counts of destruction, alteration, or concealment of evidence to which he pleaded not guilty. Not long after this, Lori's family released a statement to the press saying, quote, the Cox family, Janice and Barry, Summer, Melanie and Ian, is deeply saddened by the recent findings in this investigation into the whereabouts of JJ and Tylee. The family has maintained a strong hope and belief that they were alive and well. With that hope and belief apparently shattered, they struggle to find comfort and hope in this potential new reality, end quote. So we are going to take a quick break. And then when we come back, I want to know kind of what you think about Chad's behavior here and what happened with this search. Because the police, I think law enforcement did an excellent job with this.

Like they were able. Great job. Yeah. So I can't wait to hear your take on this. So we'll take a quick break. We'll be right back. So we're back. And as you said before the break, law enforcement did do a good job. I think both of us will agree with this. We're quick to, when something goes wrong, they're not doing a good job and they didn't do a good job in the beginning. We can even argue that some of this could have been prevented if a better job was done. Different law enforcement.

Different law enforcement agency. But again, we're all together. Obviously, every department is separate. But it's a domino effect, right? What was it? The Chandler Police Department originally? So it was like Arizona. I think it was the police in Arizona.

I think it was Chandler. Yeah, I think it was Chandler. Rexburg kind of seemed to do a good job from the get. As soon as they realized something was up, they were like on it. So, I mean it was Chandler. Rexburg kind of seemed to do a good job from the get as soon as they realized something was up. They were like, so I mean, that being the case there, obviously, the Charles Vallow thing, a different thing. And then obviously, we're here now. And they're dotting their I's across and their T's. I mean, I think it's clear it doesn't take a detective to figure out at this point, something bad is going on here. Right. With everything they had at this point, they were well aware that it wasn't a matter of if it was a matter of when. I don't think many of them thought that JJ and Tylee were still alive. I think that if they were, Lori or Chad or a combination of the two would have had them record a video or had them call in just to get law enforcement to leave them alone. Even if they were in a bad situation, they would have coerced them into recording a video or something so that law enforcement would have went away. Because at point if it doesn't if they're not in danger you really can't do much but they never could produce that because i'm sure investigators put

two and two together that more than likely they were jj and tylee were incapable of talking and by this time they've gone through the text messages right so i think yeah they know right yeah they know they know what They know what's going on. And so then you get to this day and yeah, they don't have enough to arrest Chad yet, but they're hoping based on the text messages, it'll get them enough. So they have to give him an opportunity

to leave if he wants. I'm sure they're praying that he doesn't, that he stays just long enough. And that's exactly what happened. He wanted to see what they were going to find. He was hoping that- Which is stupid. He should have left because he should have known what they were going to find. He was hoping that- Which is stupid. He should have left because he should have known what they

were going to find. There's a hundred police officers there, dude. What do you think? Well, I think at this point, he's probably hoping, okay, here it is. Either they're going to find them or they're not. And if they don't find them, Lori and I are okay. And we're going to go on with our life and we're going to move on from this and we're gonna be okay. Hopefully we did a good enough job and they're unable to locate them because if they find them we're I'm never gonna be with Lori again anyways. So I think he stayed around long enough and then that human instinct kicked in when he realized they're searching the area exactly where JJ was and he's like well I gotta go and he tried to flee the area and at that point, cops were like, eh, not so fast. We got enough now, buddy. That's it. That's your last day as a free man.

See you later. So overall, very good job. It's sad we had to get to this point. But also I think it's weird that she calls him and he says like,

they're searching for the kids, you know, and he knows it's recorded. Right. Well, I think that's what he's saying. That's, they're searching for the kids. We'll see where this goes. I interpreted yeah here's here's where we find out because they're here

and ultimately this is going to decide yay or nay are we going to get out of this alive are we going to be free people after this and then she was like well do you want me to call you later and he's like i don't know yeah he's like i don't know what's gonna happen so like and it's four acres it's four acres so you know they don't know everything that the police have done at this point and chad doesn't know that they've got alex's phone pings that's right so he's hoping that like they miss yeah yeah i just did a case and i was looking at it and and it was something where they were searching a dam for it and they didn't find anything, but they still believe that this woman's remains were there and they never found them. And people are like, oh, well, I guess she wasn't.

Well, it's a huge area and it's very hard to find someone years later. You might think like cadaver dogs are like these perfect tools. No, we know that they're not. It's very easy based on the elements that you could miss. So it could have been a situation where if they didn't have Alex's text and they didn't know where to look, maybe they would have missed them. Agreed. They knew where on that pond to search.

That was extremely advantageous for their investigation. And I also think the pet cemetery, maybe they wouldn't have disturbed that area, seeing that there's a little dog there. And they would have been like, well, yeah that there's a little dog there. And they're like, oh, that's- And they would have been like, well, yeah, the cadaver dogs are going to- Yeah. Sense remains because there's dead things here. Yeah.

Even if there's a, yeah, exactly. Even if there's like a sonar brought in, they might see some disturbances under the ground, which these sonar experts are able to tell like, yeah, there's a disturbance in the soil here. And we've had locations on Breaking Homicide where we're using sonar and it's disturbances and they can tell they can't see like human remains but they're like hey that's indicative of a graveyard because sometimes even where buildings are to this day there's old graveyards underneath them and they're able to do that type of searching so that they know what ground is stable and which ground you mean like

a void underneath the ground? Yeah. It's not even... I've seen the images. It's not even a void, but it's just like... It's like a looser earth? It's like the particles. So imagine all these dots and on concentrated, like, you know, push down soil, the dots are very close together. But in areas where there's a body or bones, it mixed in with the soil, the soil's not there. So on the radar, on the screen, it just looks like the particles are more spread out because in between those particles are flesh, clothing, bone, whatever. So the dots aren't as close together where there's no justifiable reason why that dirt, which is

compacted, wouldn't be compacted on that level because everywhere else it is. So they might look at that pet cemetery if they didn't have this information and say, yeah, well, you do have some disturbed dirt here, but it's a pet cemetery. So obviously there's probably a dead dog under there. Maybe they don't search it, but having that information that they had was critical to this case. Yeah, it really was. So on June 24th, Lori's sister, Summer, called Lori, who was at that point in the Madison County Jail. And Summer was crying, sobbing, actually. But Lori was, as always, completely calm as Summer informed her sister that Tylee and JJ had been found buried in Chad's backyard. Alex was sick to my stomach. I didn't think anything would ever let anything happen to the kids.

It just let them be thrown away like garbage. I can't take it. I can't even let this happen. It's too painful. And you think I let that happen? Yes, I do. That's nice. Is there another explanation? I'm willing to hear it.

I don't want to hear it. Absolutely, but I can't talk about it. You went off to Hawaii and were dancing on the beach while your kids are in the ground. You had to have the home when they went there. I just can't understand. I don't understand. I don't understand.

I want to believe the best in you. I really do. I love doing all my part. It kills me. But they were just little kids. I don't understand. I don't understand. You know me, Sarah.

That's what I thought. You still do. Lori, if you let that happen to them and didn't tell us and left me in the ground like a piece of trash, then I don't know you because you would have never done anything like that. That's correct. And if you knew and didn't tell us, that's not okay. We love them. We would have taken them.

We would have taken care of them. You could have gone home and done anything you wanted. That's what you think? I don't know what to think. None of us do. You haven't told us anything. We believed you. We stood up for you.

I cannot. I would love to. You caught me and mom off for four months and told everyone not to trust us because we tell Adam. And now we find this out and you expect me to just keep going on faith when there's been zero explanation and you expect me to just keep believing without ever having a question? I don't say that. That is what you're saying. Either explain it or don't expect me to not be upset and doubt you

when the kids are on Chaz's property. I'm okay. I love that with all my heart. I want to take it, Tylee and JJ, in a heartbeat. And everybody else would, too. You know that. If they were in any danger.

I have no idea what happened. You're right. Nobody does because you said nothing. Because everybody sees what's on TV. That has nothing to do with TV. This is about your and my conversations before you left and cut me off. And now you expect me to be there for you and you were gonna abandon me? And if you were in jail, you wouldn't even be talking to me and we wouldn't even know they were dead still this is your opinion yes i deserve more

than that i've been there for you like a rock and i've get i went on tv and defended you i've done everything to defend you and i still would right now if you would tell me the truth. I would love to. Well, then. I would love to. You didn't want to in October, November, December, January, or February. Wow. I really don't have a lot to add to that. I was very, you could tell the hurt in her voice.

Yeah. Yeah. And you could just see that, like you said, the calm demeanor of Lori. She's just a sick puppy. She's just a, she's just a, she's not there. You know, she's a monster. And she knows she's being recorded. She knows she's got a trial coming up.

And I, you could tell what she's saying without saying it, which you can already see her defense, right? Where it's going to be. I wasn't aware. Whatever happened to the kids happened between Chad and she's going to turn on Chad. I don't even know the end of the story, but I don't know if we're there yet, but I have a feeling that she's going to try to claim ignorance. Like she wasn't involved in whatever happened and it was Alex and Chad or just Alex.

And she's as much clueless about this whole situation as everyone else. The problem is if she really was, she would be screaming from the rooftops on every news station that she just wants to know where her kids are. But she had operated and conducted herself in a way where she was in on it. She knew where the kids were. They were okay. They had to trust her. So if she was totally unaware of where they were. Why would she be telling everyone that the kids were okay? That's exactly it. So you can't go that way now. You can't go that way now. Cause if you truly didn't know, you would be on every television channel asking for help, asking to help someone

find your kids. And you weren't, you, as her sister said, you were in freaking Hawaii dancing on a beach. And in this phone call, like I couldn't play the whole thing once again, it's like 15 minutes, but Lori's like, well, don't I deserve to like move on? Well, listen, first of all, basically, Lori is still in this call after the kids bodies are found telling her family they just don't get it. All right. They don't know everything. And she can't tell them everything. This is how she always is. I can't tell you everything. I just I can't tell you everything. And I mean, it's only June. So like the July 22nd, 2020 date hasn't hit yet. Maybe she thinks like it'll all be made clear next month.

But she's still saying the media's painting me as a monster. This is what you see on TV. No one really knows what you're talking about. And you know me, Summer, so you should know better. And she's still continuing on with this. But something important did transpire during this call. Because at that point, and to this day, Lori has denied knowing anything about her children's deaths. She has no involvement.

She knows nothing about it. But when Summer accuses her of dancing on a beach in Hawaii, smiling, and taking wedding photos later, in the call, Lori responded, quote, Yeah, months later, trying to go on with life, trying to be happy, trying to find some kind of happiness. You think I want to be alone? End quote. Now, this quick admission kind of sounds like to me Lori knew when her children died because she said she was dancing on a beach months later, which means she had some idea of when they had been murdered. The time frame, yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, she could just say like well they i hadn't seen them since september so now that they're dead i kind of put two and two together i guess she could say that but like still what she's going to try to say is like yeah i was told that they were okay and so i believed that they were yep sounds about right and who is she are you going to get there who she was told by that they were okay she never they like they never really say and like we'll get there but like during the closing statements her attorney is basically like oh chad was just following you know laurie was just following chad there you go but reportedly laurie was mad that they did this and tried to like throw

chad under the bus reportedly oh okay so after this call, Summer Shifflett, Lori's sister, posted on Facebook that she'd been wrong for defending Lori and like, you know, she just wanted to believe her sister and now she sees that Lori, you know, was involved and knew more and et cetera, et cetera, hindsight, all that jazz. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I don't think we've still got an apology from Janice Cox for claiming she talked to JJ on October 1st,

but whatever, we can't expect too much from the Cox family. Let's take our last break and then we'll be right back. So we're back from break and I just, I want to echo what you said as far as we definitely didn't hear anything from janice she's obviously i guess the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree well we had their public statement like we're saddened by this we have to

live with this new reality she's quick to go on television to defend to defend her though that which is interesting but with summer i think all of us can understand where she's coming from she wanted to believe her sister you know you grow up with this person your entire life. And at one point, they may have been just a normal person that, you know, your sister that you got along with. Lori Vallow ain't never been normal. Well, you know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying. I don't think it ever crossed Summer's mind that she'd be capable of doing something like this.

So when you hear these things from the media and from law enforcement, you're thinking, no way, I know this person. There's no way they would be capable of doing something so horrible. There's just, it's hard for people, even me sitting here with all the cases that I've done, even all the cases that you've researched, you still never get accustomed to the idea

that like human beings are capable of doing this to other human beings, nevertheless, children. It's just not something that you're going to be able to process ever. You're never going to be like, yeah, I get it. Makes sense. You know, I understand par for the course. So having it be someone that you love and that you grew up with, it's that much harder. So you have this point where she's out there, she's defending her sister. She finally realizes after, you know, the, realizes after the children have discovered on Chad's property that there's no way, just there's no way her sister wouldn't have known about this. And if she did, she wouldn't have been saying you could tell how hurt she is by it. I think like she would have taken the kids. This, this shouldn't have been, this could have been a non-issue. She said, you could have gone and done whatever you wanted.

You didn't have to kill them. And I think she's not saying it directly in here. Cause she also knows she's being recorded, but she knows. She says that basically in the rest of the call. Like, yeah, I know you did it. And there's no way you wouldn't have known. And if you didn't do it yourself, you still kept it under wraps and you cut us off because we wanted answers and you weren't going to give them. So there's a lot of victims in this case. It's not just the two we're

talking about. It's a lot of family members, a lot of friends who are all forever affected by this. It has a strong ripple effect. A hundred percent. The whole family of the families. And one of the jurors in Lori's trial says something similar because they also played. I'm not going to play it because it is really disturbing, but they played a phone call between Lori and her son, Colby, after the kids' bodies are found. And Colby's doing much the same, but it's almost more heartbreaking. Like he's literally like, why did you do this to my siblings? Like, why did you do this to my siblings? Like, why did you do this? Like, oh my God.

And he's like devastated. And this jury member said, Lori just calmly, coolly, and in such a calculated manner continues to devastate person after person after person. And she doesn't care at all. And you can tell that she doesn't care at all. And it's not just an act because she knows she's being recorded. This is how she is. And you could tell Summer feels used, right? Because she says like, you wouldn't even be talking to me if you didn't need me. The only reason you finally talked to me last month was because you wanted me and our mother to go and

publicly defend you. You manipulate people. You use people like Summer clearly is like, I love you. You're my sister. I would have done anything for you, but we don't mean shit to you. We're just pawns to be used and moved around the board to be pulled off the shelf and used for your own means when you need it and to be put back, never to have to be answered to or by you ever. So Summer feels used. Colby feels completely devastated. Everybody just can't understand because like you said, Larry and Kay Woodcock would have taken JJ. The Cox family would have taken Tylee. I mean, she was 16. She was going to be on her own in a couple years anyways. I don't think that Ty Lee would have been much better off with Janice and Barry Cox, but she only had a couple of years until she was an adult. She could have gone to college and

gotten the hell away from her crazy ass mother. But then Lori wouldn't have gotten the money from their social security benefits, right? Yep, exactly. And I mean, she couldn't very well tell her family like, well, I was going to kill them for $5,000 a month, but if you guys want was going to kill them for $5,000 a month. But if you guys want to take them and pay me $5,000 a month, we'll call it even. So prosecutors ultimately believed that Alex Cox had been the one to commit the murders, but they believed the murders had been masterminded by Lori and Chad. Obviously, I agree. I think Alex was very weak minded, very you know, manipulated and used and controlled.

And it kind of felt like the most that Lori and Chad could be charged with was conspiracy to commit murder at the time. But by May of 2021, the full list of charges that Lori and Chad faced were revealed. So jointly, they would be charged with the conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and grand theft by deception for the death of Tylee Ryan. They'd also face first-degree murder charges into the death of Tylee, and these charges would be repeated for J.J., the conspiracy to commit first-degree murder and grand theft, as well as first-degree murder charges. And there was an additional conspiracy to commit first-degree murder in the death of Tammy Daybell.

Lori and Chad also faced separate charges. So Chad was charged with the first-degree murder in the death of Tammy Daybell. Lori and Chad also faced separate charges. So Chad was charged with the first-degree murder of Tammy Daybell. He was also charged with insurance fraud for a life insurance policy he had on Tammy, for which he was the beneficiary and received money after her death. Additionally, he was charged with another count of insurance fraud. And Lori faced charges of grand theft related to the Social Security survivor benefits for Tylee and JJ. And Lori faced charges of grand theft related to the Social Security survivor benefits for Tylee and JJ. And in the state of Arizona, Lori also faced a conspiracy to commit first degree murder in the death of Charles Vallow. Within a day of these charges being announced, the defense team requested that Lori Vallow undergo a psychological assessment,

and a psychologist found Lori incompetent to stand trial. So Lori's trial was postponed until she could be brought back to full mental health, which took roughly 10 months to do. And just for anybody who's curious, saying somebody's incompetent to stand trial doesn't mean that they're legally insane, doesn't mean that they are going to be found not guilty based on mental insanity. It just meant that they wanted going to be found not guilty based on mental insanity.

It just meant that they wanted to make sure Lori was in the right state of mind to understand the legal proceedings, what was happening to her, and to be able to participate in her own defense. And I'm sure that as much as Lori could act not crazy, she could turn it on and act plenty crazy when being assessed by a psychologist. Of course. I mean, she turns it on for everybody else. We talked about it episodes one, two, three, and four, where this woman had a knack for

being able to become the person that the casting agency or the judges wanted her to be. Yeah, that's what she does. That is one of her skill sets that she possesses that inherently she was just very good at. And she'd already been psychologically assessed, remember, when she was with Charles and she'd been found to be completely sane. So yeah, she can turn it on and turn it off whenever she wants. Very convenient. Yeah. Well, in September of 2021, the children of Chad and Tammy Daybell spoke publicly for the first time together. These children are Mark Daybell, Leah Murphy, Seth Daybell, Garth Daybell, spoke publicly for the first time together. These children are Mark Daybell,

Leah Murphy, Seth Daybell, Garth Daybell, and Emma Murray, and they all told 48 Hours that they believed their father had been framed by Lori Vallow and her brother, Alex Cox. If you ask me, Chad and Lori framed Alex, but okay. So the children believed that the remains of JJ and Tylee being found on the Daybell property is proof that Chad is innocent of their murders. Chad's daughter, Emma Murray, said, quote, I don't know why they would be here, but I do know that if he were to commit a crime, he wouldn't be foolish enough to put the evidence in his own backyard. End quote. The Daybell siblings claimed that Chad had no idea JJ and Tylee were buried there, and Emma claimed that there was ample opportunity while the property was unattended during the day for someone to sneak on and secretly bury the remains.

Emma pointed out that her father rarely went outside, and neither burial site could be seen from the house. If Chad was going to get rid of evidence of a crime he'd been involved in, there were many other, even more remote locations for him to do that. And Emma said, quote, You can look around for miles and miles. There's not houses and neighbors. You could go down that river that way. There's land down there that no one would ever touch. End quote.

So I agree in a sense that it's like stupid to bury the kids on your own property. But there's plenty of evidence that Chad was well aware. For instance, the text that he sent Tammy about the raccoon and how he had to shoot the raccoon. There's no freaking raccoon, right? The police didn't find a raccoon. And the Daybell children were like, well, there could have been a raccoon.

And our dad was telling us that there was a raccoon creeping around and we had set traps for this raccoon. And there's another pet cemetery that the police never checked and the raccoon could be buried in there so that's probably what he was talking about but it happened to be the exact date and time that alex cox was there on the property burying tylee so it like burning her too so you're going to tell me that chad daybell at the same time that alex cox is setting a bonfire to burn Tylee's body, Chad Daybell's also setting a bonfire to burn a raccoon and they just don't see each other. They're like using the same bonfire. And Chad's like, hey, Alex, what are you doing here on my property? Just burning something. I'm burning something, too. What

are you burning? Nothing. OK, I'm burning a raccoon. Come on, man. And then he calls or Lori calls him and Chad's all like they're looking for the kids like we're going to see what transpires. If you didn't know that they were there, why would you say we're going to see what transpires? You know, like you'd be like, well, they're not going to find anything. So there's plenty of evidence that that Chad knew exactly what was going on. And he was there when Alex was there, at least burning and disposing of Tylee's body. Well, I got a better one for you. The police are there on a four acre lot of land. And for the most part, when they're searching certain areas, Chad is in his car or he's, you know, it's kind of a little bit more relaxed. But as soon as they get to the area

where JJ was buried, he gets more nervous. He gets more anxious. He's outside the car. And right before they find JJ, he decides at that moment he's going to take off. So coincidence? I don't think so. So he knew at that point the jig was up. He knew where the bodies were buried, literally. And so when they got close and they were snooping around the spots that were in question, that he knew where the kids

were, he decided he was going to make a run for it. And I think that alone, that action, is very indicative of him having knowledge of where the children were at minimum, whether that was at Alex's hand or a combination of the two. He knew where they were. I agree completely. I mean, obviously.

Obviously he did. And I don't blame these kids for defending him, I guess. That's what he's telling them. Yeah, but... You know what I mean? That's what he's telling them. It's know what i mean that's what he's telling him it's just like there's evidence that their mother was martyred you know so like yeah this is and then and then like and then he's married like two weeks later and they were like yeah it was odd the way he just like suddenly married lori and like moved on but you know whatever so the daybell kids claim also that the shallowness of the graves points to their

father's innocence since he'd been a professional grave digger for much of his early career and he would know better. According to Seth Daybell, quote, this is a man who buries pets like as deep as he can. He knew how to dig graves and that just doesn't sound believable to me, end quote. Except I don't think he did. I think it was Alex who did. But regardless, he knew it was happening. We don't necessarily think he was out there with them. They had the lackey do the work. I think he was out there with him. You think he was present when he killed them?

I don't think that Chad was present when Alex killed the kids. I don't think so either. I think that he was present when Alex was disposing of their remains. Like sort of standing over and watching. Maybe not like right up front, but like probably in eyesight, like kind of watching what was happening. Yeah.

See, I, and this isn't like giving him credit. I think he's such a coward that more than likely he was sitting in the house, again, creating that level of plausible deniability. You know what I don't see? I can't say I knew. You know what I mean? Alex is the guy who's a scapegoat. Why would he text text tammy and be like oh there's a gunshot if you hear about a

gunshot it's because i shot a raccoon and if you hear about a fire because i think he knew what was going on but then you would have to know on some level what was happening in order oh yeah he i i agree he's watching from from a distance maybe i mean listen i have nothing i can't debate you on i wasn't there but i would argue that just his background, he just looks like a coward. He just looks like someone who doesn't get his hands dirty. So I just don't see him being present for it. And I think in the back of their minds, and I could be wrong, I think there was always a plan B, which was, hey, if this comes out, if we get exposed, we're dropping the hammer on Alex. He did this by himself. He's the problem here. Because they obviously don't know they're going to get all those text messages. I think the reason they had him do a lot of this stuff and get his hands dirty is that if the ship ever was going down, they were going to blame it all on Alex. I think he was always the scapegoat.

And Alex knew that, I think, yeah. Yeah. And so I think that was part of the reason why they tried to separate. They facilitated everything. But when it came to the actual act, they let little Alex go handle it because they knew if they had to dime out somebody, Alex, if he was still alive, he would be going down for all of this by himself. They would both turn on him. is horrible but there's that that's what was gonna happen for sure and alex sensed it and we don't know why he sensed it but it most likely it was something to do with you know the way what the things they said to him the way they were treating him towards the end distancing themselves etc well in july of 2022 the daybell siblings were still defending their father saying anyone who

thought chad could kill someone clearly didn't know. Did you know what he did to the bees, guys? Like the mass murder of the bees? Emma said that meeting Lori Vallow was the worst thing that had ever happened to her father. And if Lori had never come into their family's life, none of this would have happened. I agree with her there. They also claim that their father didn't kill their mother or have anything to do with her death. And Tammy Daybell had not been in perfect health, as had been reported, with Emma saying, quote, she would get out of breath very quickly, would get very tired, and she started going to bed very early at night, end quote. But like, her autopsy said she was asphyxiated. Like, her autopsy proves she was murdered. I just don't

understand this level of delusion. Emma also said that her father was not hiding anything by not wanting an autopsy. In fact, it wasn't even his decision. She said, quote, the narrative is that he was going, no, no, no autopsy. But he was standing there in complete shock, traumatized, letting us make the decision. If he was trying to hide something, I wouldn't leave something like that up to my kids if I was trying to hide something, end quote. So basically, Emma here is saying our mother was sick. She wasn't doing well. And we were the ones, this is what it sounds like to me, we were the ones who decided to not have an autopsy. And our father had nothing to do with that decision because

he was just so traumatized and so much in shock that he couldn't make that decision. And that was our decision. I mean, that could be the case, but it also could be that he was going to push them that way anyways. And when they suggested it, he was like, well, if that's what you want, you know, if they had if they had wanted one, maybe he would have tried to. Or he said something like, I just can't stand the thought of the idea of your mother being cut up like me. Like, that's going to be so much worse. It's bad enough that she's dead. But to think somebody would put her on a slab and cut into her. Yeah. Yeah, because he's manipulative. He's a cult leader. So, you know, by April of 2022, Judge Stephen Boyce, who's awesome, by the way, I love this judge. He ruled that Lori Vallow was now competent to stand trial. Now competent, I said, not not competent. She was now competent to stand trial, but she still

refused to enter a plea to her charges. So he was forced to enter a not guilty plea on her behalf. Chad and Lori were supposed to have been tried together. But then Chad's attorney requested that the trials be severed because they needed more time to review DNA evidence. And Chad waived his right to a speedy trial. Lori did not waive her right to a speedy trial. And her defense team said that they were ready to go to trial on April 3rd, 2023 as planned. So the prosecutors had wanted Chad and Lori to be tried together. Obviously, it's better for their case if Chad and Lori are tried together as one,

because this was something that they were both involved in. But they also cited the expense of holding two separate trials that were each expected to take weeks or months. But the judge noted that the prosecution had not given the DNA evidence, which was a hair found at the crime scene, to the defense attorneys in a timely manner, and Chad's attorney, John Pryor, wanted to have his own DNA testing done on the hair. So Judge Stephen Boyce said, quote, I have to balance these rights of these defendants in this case. Severance is the only option I see, end quote. On April 10th, 2023, the prosecution and the defense made their opening statements in the trial of Lori Vallow. And the defense's opening statements were kind of weird. And like, tell me that this guy, this lawyer, I think his name is Jim Archibald.

He doesn't sound like the guy from Ferris Bueller. Like, Bueller, Bueller. The evidence will show that people were attracted to her, as the state has told you. They've been attracted to her pretty smile, her vivacious personality, her fun-loving, happy-go-lucky personality. People wanted to be around her. Lori was such a good, responsible mother to her two children that her husband's sister, Kay Woodcock, wanted her to adopt a special needs toddler newborn.

Kay Woodcock was the grandma to a child born in Louisiana in 2012, a child with special needs. The child's parents couldn't take care of him because of their own personal problems. The evidence will show that Lori was a dutiful wife to Charles Vallow. They both worked hard, he at the office and she at home. She was a kind and loving mother to her children. The evidence will show she had a particular interest in religion in the end of times. You'll recognize the quote unquote end of times as something spoken of in the Holy Bible, the New Testament. Most of you will understand when I say that.

Some people could care less about biblical prophecies. Some people care a lot about it. Thankfully, in this country, we get to worship how we choose. The evidence will show that once Laurie and her friends met Chad Daybell, an author on religious subjects, her beliefs began to morph and to change. And that's where you come into this story, because the stories diverge. So we haven't been able to agree on what happened, and we need you to decide it. So what happened? How did these children die? Who was involved? When did it happen?

Where did it happen? Why? Why did it happen? He definitely has a monotone voice. I get where he's going with it. It's like he's not even trying, man. Yeah, but as far as where he's going with it, we can see, right? She's going to blame Chad.

She was manipulated by Chad. They didn't, though. They didn't blame Chad at all. They didn't say anything about Chad throughout the entire trial, dude, until the closing statements. And I think even one of the jury members was like, what? You should have gone with that defense the whole time. It seems like they had intended on it. For some reason, they called an audible. You know what audible is, right?

Yeah, you've told me this before. Audible, they called a change. And maybe there is some truth to the fact that Lori was like, no, we're not going that way. No doubt, dude. Absolutely no doubt. So they decided, because they probably figured that was the best play. I feel like Lori probably was saying, hey, listen, regardless of how this plays out, I'm not going to have the person that kind of represents the religion that I believe in or the religion itself fall on the sword for me.

Not going to do it. Well, she can't blame her religion if she's turning on Chad and saying that he manipulated her, right? Right. She has to stay with the program. They both have to stay with the program. However, we don't know if Chad's going to turn on Lori at his trial next year, which chances are he probably is. I hope he does. I really hope he does, because if he does, then we might get some answers. We might get some insight into what happened between the two of them and what happened to JJ and Tylee. So if Chad, because they took the death penalty off the table for Laurie, but it's still on the table for Chad. And I think they're doing that because they want him to make a deal. They want to be like, OK, Chad, like, tell us what happened. Like, they obviously cannot try

Lori again because as we're going to find out, well, hold on, I'll get there. I'll get there. We don't want to jump ahead of ourselves. So defense attorney Jim Archibald told the jury that they were there to simply judge Lori and her actions. They were not there to judge Alex Cox and his actions. They were not there to judge Chad Daybell and his actions, just Lori and her actions. They were not there to judge Alex Cox and his actions. They were not there to judge Chad Daybell and his actions, just Lori and her actions. And he's pretty much saying this because he's like, yeah, Chad and Alex probably had a lot to do with these kids dying, but like Lori didn't. And you can't prove that she did. And he said that Lori had an alibi for the dates and times that her children were being murdered. She was in her apartment with three other people and her brother Alex had killed JJ and Tylee

in his apartment nearby. The prosecution responded saying, quote, an alibi does not apply to a conspiracy charge. The alibi disclosure is misplaced as to those charges. Basically like she could have still been a conspiracy to murder without having to have been physically there. And then they said an alibi is similarly misplaced in charges where the defendant is charged with murder as a principal. End quote.

At the end of the trial, it took the jury only seven hours to find Lori Vallow guilty of murdering her two children and conspiring to murder Tammy Dabow, who the prosecution referred to as her romantic rival. During the trial, the state called dozens of witnesses and repeatedly showed the jury pictures of the remains of JJ and Tylee. Although most of the evidence during the trial was circumstantial, like text messages between Lori, Chad, and their followers, a DNA expert did testify that a strand of hair stuck to the tape on JJ belonged to Lori. The prosecution claimed that Chad and Lori had done it for the money, and they involved themselves and others in a deadly conspiracy that they tried to justify with religious beliefs. Instead of just leaving their respective families and starting a new life together, they plotted to kill Tylee, JJ, Charles, and Tammy in order to benefit financially

from each of these people. The defense claimed that Lori was enthralled with Chad Daybell, a man she believed to be her eternal soulmate and Messiah. And like I said, this was in the closing statements. Jim Archibald said, quote, Lori wants to tell you how much she loves Jesus. But is she a leader or a follower? She's not leading anyone. She's a follower of Chad. She thinks Chad is a follower of Jesus, but he's not. He's a follower of the's not leading anyone. She's a follower of Chad. She thinks Chad is a follower of Jesus, but he's not. He's a follower of the storm, end quote. I don't know what he means by

this. Is he talking about Chad's penis? Is that what Jim Archibald is referring to? Because why does the storm keep coming up here? And what, if not Chad's penis, is Jim Archibald referring to when he says the storm? I have no clue, but I mean, I'm assuming he had access to text messages. But if he didn't, he doesn't realize what it sounds like he's saying. I think that he means that like Chad was not a follower of Jesus. Like he followed his penis wherever it led him pretty much. Which is possible. Which is true.

He's just using a polite way of saying it. Yeah. Because I'm assuming through the trial, they probably mentioned some of these text messages where they referred to his penis as a storm. So this was a polite, respectful way of saying, like some guys, they lead with their the wrong head. Yeah. You know? Yeah, exactly. Which, I mean, agreed.

But the prosecution did not agree. Instead, they said that Lori had used money, power and sex to get what she wanted. She always had done this, and it didn't the court should overturn Lori's previous trial and she should be retried alongside Chad Daybell, who, like I said, is scheduled to go to trial next year in 2024. Judge Stephen Boyce denied this request for a new trial, and Lori is actually scheduled to be sentenced on July 31st. Although the death penalty is off the table, she can still get life in prison. The trial of Chad Daybell has been scheduled to begin at 9 a.m. on April 1st, 2024, and reportedly prosecutors are pursuing the death penalty in Chad's case. And this is where I think that literally they're doing this because they want to find out.

They want to find out exactly what happened. Who did this? They need the information. So they can still tell Chad, like, you're going to get life in prison for your part in this, but at least you won't go to death row. So give us the information that, I mean, you and I have said multiple times during the series, well, we'll never know. We'll never know. Well, we will know if one of these people, Bonnie or Clyde here, decide to break their silence. It ain't going to be Lori because she's the strong one. Okay. She's

the strong willed one. She's the one that sits there stone faced as people sob, as people batter her with questions. Where's the kids? Where's the kids? And she's got no reaction. Chad's the one who I think that is the weaker link and who they can get to. And we may get some answers if he decides to turn on her, which I mean, at this point, they're both going to prison one way or the other. They're never going to see each other again. So what do you got to lose, man? What do you got to lose? It also could be, not only see the weaker one,

but if you're trying to get the full story, there's a hierarchy, right? Of the decision-making process. Well, Lori can't turn on the person who was directing her because she was in charge. Where Chad can genuinely say like yeah listen laurie was telling me this this is what she told me how why we were doing it how we were doing it and i was wrong obviously for doing it but she's the one who was pulling the string she's the one

who's directing her brother to do what he did and i just was the one who was like honey badgering me too like you know honey potting me i mean like you know that she can't turn on anybody because she's only punching down where he can say yeah no she was the one who came up with the plan she's the one who got her brother involved i wasn't as close with him she was the one directing this whole thing and i was just helping create an alibi and i mean if you look at it we had charles gone and jj gone ty lee gone weeks before in in Charles' case, months before Tammy Daybell is dead. That's right. And it kind of seemed like Lori was sort of like in text messages, you know, why isn't

your wife dead yet? You know, why have I carried my part and I've gotten rid of my obstacles, but your wife is still alive. It kind of seemed like she was leading the charge there. And reportedly, you know, Lori and Chad are still going strong, still solid. And she was upset with her legal team for attempting to blame Chad

for everything during closing arguments. And Lori's brother, Adam Cox, recently told news outlet KSAZ, quote, I believe that she believed everything that Chad told her and she still believes it while she's sitting in jail. She still believes that Chad is a God or whatever he told her he is, end quote. Bullshit. She doesn't believe that. She never did. And it's very easy because her family was like, Lori could never be manipulated. And now they're like, poor Lori was

manipulated. And Adam Cox is like apparently doing a podcast about this, which is in poor taste, in my opinion, because you had the opportunity to step in for months for years for years right because adam cox was one of the people that charles valo was like talking to about how crazy laurie was acting about these new religious beliefs and they were like oh let's do an intervention and like you knew about this for years and when those kids went missing you knew what charles valo had told you about what laur Lori believed about zombies and having to get rid of it and stuff. And you all still defended her. You all still supported her. So now you want to do a podcast? I don't know. I think it's in poor taste personally for me. Adam Cox is also the DJ who

made that woman drink so much water she died. So do we really want to be hearing from him? I know he's eager to get back into the radio game, but I think it's in poor taste personally. I will not be listening. I will not be listening. Maybe I will. Maybe you will. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, come on.

So you want me to go first? Do you want me to go first as we wrap this up? I mean, yeah. Do you have final thoughts? I do have final me to go first as we wrap this up I mean yeah do you have final thoughts I do have final thoughts so hit me two things

two things first off and this may be the obvious I feel like we know the motive here I feel like there were multiple opportunities

for JJ and Ty Lee to be given up to other family members or friends where they could have gone on and lived their life and it wouldn't have affected Lori or Chad in any way other than what? Finances. Financially. So that's

what this comes down to. What's the common denominator here? What's the factor that would have been altered if they were still alive? And that's the money. Because if the kids aren't with them, then whatever caretakers were taking care of them, they would have gotten the social security. So that's why they had to go. Same thing with Tammy, right? There's an insurance policy. Chad could have said to her, like a lot of other adults, listen, I'm no longer in love with you. I want to be with Lori. I want a divorce. This is over. Would have been hard, would have been, you know, whatever to get difficult to go through that, but she could have went on living. He could have gone on with Lori and it would have been fine. But again, they wouldn't have got the insurance money. So I do think that's what this really boils down to. And

I hate to make it that simple. It's money, but in some cases, that's really what it is. And that's the final point that I want to make about this case. And I've been seeing it on a couple other cases that were coming across my feed or whatever. And it's whenever there's this horrific event involving human beings doing something that seem impossible that they could do that. It's always like, well, they must have been mentally ill. They must have been.

The reality is some people are just bad people. Yeah. And some people do things for reasons that you or I may not do it for, but they're together just because they believe in a religion that we don't all believe in doesn't mean they're mentally ill. And the reality is, I truthfully believe that Lori, Chad, Alex, they were sane people. They were mentally competent. They're just bad people. They're just bad people willing to do bad things. And in this case,

the motive, the motivation behind doing those things was money, greed, being selfish, and wanting more money for themselves. I think that's as simple as it gets. I want to take seven episodes and compile them into those two thoughts. But I really think it's that simple for me. I mean, we've seen this throughout history, right? We've seen people who come forward and gather followers and claim that the end of the world is coming in order to reach their own means. We've seen it with Charles Manson. He told his followers that like helter skelter was happening and they had to go into a pit in the California desert. And then when they came out, everybody would be dead and they would take over and rule the world. Very similar kind of concept, right? David Koresh did the same thing. They all had their motives. David Koresh basically just wanted to have sex with everybody. Charles Manson also basically just wanted to have sex with everybody and do drugs and be respected and be revered. What were Lori and Chad's motives? We think money. Also, I think some sort of respect, some sort of reverence, some sort of following. These things can go hand in hand. These are the

types of people personality-wise that sort of gravitate towards this type of behavior. It's not normal, but like you said, not necessarily mentally ill. So in college, I took a course called Abnormal Psychology, and it's basically just like this is the standard of people who behave within the confines of what society tells you is right and wrong, morally, legally, etc. And then there's people who don't. And those people could be mentally ill. Those people could just be, like you said, bad people, aka, I think, evil. You know, there is evil in the world. And at our core as human beings, we all have the ability, the capability to be evil, to be bad, to be uncivilized. But most of us remain in the confines of what society tells us is morally and legally right because we want to, because we want to be good people, even though we have maybe a little bit of seed in us that's kind of like, I don't want to be civilized and I want to kind of do things the wrong way. But we resist that because at the end of the day, we want to be good people and we want to do what's right and we don't want to hurt others. Who knows what separates

us from the people that don't do that? Sometimes it's mental illness and sometimes I do believe that it's just like, you don't care. They don't care. They don't care. They're selfish. They're narcissists. They care only about themselves and what they want in that moment. They have no sense of delayed gratification. It's all about me, me, me, now, now, now. And if we looked at Lori Vallow's brain and Chad Daybell's brain, would we find that some, that the part of impulse control maybe was a little bit smaller, maybe a little less developed. Maybe. But at the end of the day, it's not an excuse. It's not a reason. And these people probably aren't safe to be walking amongst the rest of us. At the end of the day, Chad and Lori hopefully will stay in prison forever where they belong, as they should, because they took all of

these people's lives and they literally didn't have to. They could have, like you said, been together, gone off and escaped to Hawaii. You know, Lori would have gotten a real job and Chad would have had to, you know, maybe written a book that actually sold and made money. But neither of these people had any talents or intelligence to make a living for themselves between the two of them. They always relied on other people. They always sucked off of other people. And that is something that Lori and Chad shared, their leeches. Lori always leeched off of every person she married financially. Chad leeched off of these other authors that he brought under his book label, Julie Rowe, and all of these other people who actually did make books that the people wanted to read. And

when he wrote a book, he had to actually start lying about his past lives and his visions and his near-death experiences and all of these things, which he never brought up earlier. But all of a sudden, after talking to Julie Rowe and hearing about her brushes with death, he suddenly has all these near-death experiences that he can talk about. He's a grifter. Lori's a grifter. They're grifters. They could never make a living amongst themselves by themselves. They don't create. They destroy. So at the end of the day, like, yeah, those are my final thoughts. These two people are terrible. They belong behind bars. But if you want me to tell you who was leading the charge, it wasori valo all day long the ironiness cases these individuals were

allegedly looking to identify dark spirits when all they had to do was look in the mirror pretty crazy right yeah crazy right yeah and on that note i think we're all set we out yeah we series is wrapped up great job with the research great job with the storytelling we'll be back with a new case next week so everyone stay stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Bye.