Crime Weekly - S3 Ep136: Kyron Horman: Science Fair Turned Crime Scene (Part 1)

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

On the morning of June 4th, 2010, seven year old Kyron Horman was brought to his elementary school by his stepmother so that he could show her his science fair project. Skyline Elementary School in Portland, Oregon was having a science fair that day, and although the school would normally open at 8:35 AM, that morning the doors were unlocked at 8AM, to give the students a chance to tour the fair with their families. At around 8:45 AM, Kyron’s stepmother Terri Moulton Horman took a photograph of Kyron standing in front of his project, a detailed diorama of the red-eyed tree frog. He beamed proudly at the camera through his wire rimmed glasses, and then, according to Terri, she walked him to his classroom and watched him enter. But when attendance was taken that day, Kyron Horman was not present, and he would never be seen again. His mother Desiree Young would later say quote, “it’s like a portal opened up in the school and Kyron just vanished into it” end quote. The search for Kyron has been the largest criminal investigation in Portland history, but to this day there has been no sign of what happened to him, where he went, or who he was with.  Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. Skims The Fits Everybody collection and more perfect-fit essentials are available now at www.SKIMS.com. Plus, get free shipping on orders over seventy five dollars! After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you! Select "podcast" in the survey and be sure to select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. 2. Smalls Higher quality ingredients mean a healthier and happier life for your kitty.  So, head to Smalls.com/CRIMEWEEKLY and use promo code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout for 50% off your first order PLUS free shipping!  

On the morning of June 4th, 2010, seven-year-old Kyron Horman was brought to his elementary school by his stepmother so that he could show her his science fair project. Skyline Elementary School in Portland, Oregon was having a science fair that day, and although the school would normally open at 8.35 a.m., that morning the doors were unlocked at 8 a.m. to give the students a chance to tour the fair with their families. At around 8.45 a.m., Kyron's stepmother, Terry Moulton Horman, took a photograph of Kyron standing in front of his project, a detailed diorama of the red-eyed tree frog. He beamed proudly at the camera through his wire-rimmed glasses and then,

according to Terry, she walked him to his classroom and watched him enter. But when attendance was taken that day, Kyron Horman was not present and he would never be seen again. His mother, Desiree Young, would later say, quote, it's like a portal opened up in the school and Kyron just vanished into it, end quote. The search for Kyron has been the largest criminal investigation in Portland history, but to this day, there's been no sign of what happened to him, where he went, or who he was with. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're diving into probably the most requested case, whether it's Crime Weekly or my own YouTube channel, Stephanie Harlow. Shameless plug. I've been plugging my show for the last two weeks. I mean, you got to throw a couple of plugs in there. That's true. I mean, come on, let's be honest.

Plug it. So, and it's been for years. It's been for years on my YouTube channel that people have suggested Kyron Horman. And since we started Crime Weekly, it has been our most suggested case. And I don't know why I haven't looked into it or dived into it before now. I think because, you know, missing kids really gets to me. But I'm glad that we're tackling it today because there was a lot going on with this case that I had no idea. And it is one of those cases where the police have been a little like tight lipped about it. And I think it's because in my opinion, allegedly, I think it's because they know in a way what happened and they know who did it or who may have been responsible. And when you see cases like that, law enforcement keeps a lot of evidence and information close to the chest because they don't need to really release it because they're not looking for a bunch of tips and things. And when it comes to the timeline and specifically little details,

they're reported differently everywhere. But I think that I did enough research and I looked into enough things where I can find a happy medium. And in the places where we're not exactly sure about the timeline, I will clarify. Yeah. And I think you're right. I think there are cases where law enforcement is, for the most part, well aware of what took place. There's not some like random person out there that scooped up this kid and they're just still trying to figure out who that is. They've kind of connected the dots, but unfortunately- But they don't have enough to

prosecute maybe. That's right. And for all we know, they've already tried to prosecute where they went to the AG. Well, I know that there's a grand jury that was convened in this person accountable. And unfortunately, it just didn't meet the threshold needed to go to trial. And for the most part, the public may never know about that. And here's the other problem with it, right? And we're going to dive all into it, but if a grand jury was already convened for a specific person, and I don't even know who that person is at this point, that's it. Good luck trying to, unless you have something extremely compelling, that person will never be charged because that is public record and that will be brought out if any charges are brought forward and more than likely they'll be dismissed because of it.

So it's one of those things where I was just covering another case, Justin Gaines, and it's one of the same situations where they have an idea who did it, but they just don't have enough. It's all circumstantial. And if you take that shot and you miss, it's gone forever. So I know there's people out there, probably even in this case, that are trying to push on that public pressure, but it can have a reverse effect. It can have a negative effect because if the authorities do pursue something and they're wrong and they don't have enough, then the person who did it may just be free forever. So it's a balance. I don't even know. I don't think there's a perfect system. There's no policy in place. It's kind of a,

you got to just consult with lawyers and see what they think. And they have to kind of play defense attorney before you go to trial because they know that the holes that they find, the defense attorneys are going to find as well. Look at some of the excuses that these defense attorneys are coming up for people like Brian Koberger. It's just, they're pulling it out of their ass. Like even when there is nothing, they will still find something. So when there is actually exculpatory evidence or things that could be interpreted as exculpatory, they're going to find it and they're going to use it. So personally, in this case, I feel like it's more of a nobody, no crime situation. I think that there's so much circumstantial evidence, but probably very little physical evidence. And the police have never

named this person publicly as a suspect, although she and her lawyers have referred to her as a suspect multiple times. But the police have never said she's a suspect, but they don't really need to. And I think that with something like this, they would have to find Kyron in order to charge her. And unfortunately, I think that that is not going to happen. Okay. Well, we'll get into it. You ready to cover? Just do the quick plug for CrimeCon, right?

CrimeCon's coming up end of September. I believe it's the, what, the 21st, 22nd, something like that. So I'm not great with time and dates, but I know it's the end of September. End of September. It's a Friday through a Sunday. But if you haven't already and you want to meet us out there, it's in Orlando. It's going to be at the Marriott World Center. It's like, looks like a really cool hotel. hotel actually as she's editing this shannon will be making an appearance as well she'll be down there so you get to meet shannon as well if you stop by and we're going to get together you can use our code crime weekly if you want to get a

discount but even if you for some reason can't make it to crime con but you're in the area we're going to post something on social media where we're going to do a little get together that doesn't require you to enter crimeCon. Obviously, we'd love to see you there. And if you're a fan of true crime, I can tell you from being there in the past, you would really enjoy it. There's a lot of people that go, a lot of great seminars and different- A lot of great exhibits, different podcasters. You've got family members there of victims who are trying to get their loved one's story out. There's a lot of good ways to support the people that you want to support

in the true crime realm at CrimeCon. Absolutely. And in this year, addition for us is we're going to be there on podcast row, but Criminal Coffee is also going to be making an appearance this year. It's going to have its own booth. We're going to have...

Right next to us. Yep, right next to us. So if you want us to sign the bag or whatever, we'll be there to do that. We're also going to have K-Cups. I don't know how much I'm going to bring right next to us. Yep. Right next to us. So if you want us to sign the bag or whatever, we'll be there to do that. We're also going to have K cups. I don't know how much I'm going to bring down there with me. It'll be a decent amount, but I'm trying to bring just enough so that it's gone and I don't have to ship it back.

So we will be down there for that and that'll be right next door. So if you, and if you don't want to wait, you can go to criminal coffee co right now, check it out, get your bag of coffee and then, uh coffee, and then tell us what you thought about it when you see us in person. So that was the quick plug. Ready to go into it right now. I know this is probably going to be a long one tonight. So wanted to put that out there. It's already, it will be in August by the time you guys hear or see this episode. So clock's running. If you want to see us at CrimeCon, get your tickets. Okay. So I think you're right. It might be a little bit longer because we have a lot to discuss, so let's dive in.

Kyron Horman was born on September 9, 2002, to his parents, Desiree Young and Kane Horman. Eight months after Kyron was born, his parents divorced, citing irreconcilable differences, but it seems the real reason why they couldn't make it work was due to Kane's infidelity. Desiree filed for divorce in August of 2002 when she was still pregnant with Chiron, and it appears that the person Kane was having an affair with would also become his future wife and stepmother to his son, and her name was Terry Moulton. And I know you're not familiar with the Gannon-Stout case, like as familiar as, you know, some people, not as familiar as me, but the entire time I was going through this, I kept flashing back to it. There's so many similarities and parallels, so many. With Al Stout and Landon Stout, Al kind of stepped out on Landon, was dating Letitia, then he marries Letitia, she

becomes Gannon's stepmother. And then as we know, that did not end well for G was dating Letitia. Then he marries Letitia. She becomes Gannon's stepmother. And then as we know, that did not end well for Gannon because Letitia was a crazy bitch who ended up murdering him for no other reason than she's insecure, off her rocker, and completely delusional. So it's very similar. And it was hard to kind of go through it because this happened, you know, far before Gannon's death because Gannon happened in 2020. And to see history sort of repeat itself in this way, because you usually don't hear about women and their capacity for violence. You don't hear about women and, you know, them being the perpetrators of a crime. But sometimes you do. And then it's even for me another level of kind of just like gruesome. It's like how could you do this to a child? How could you do anything to harm a child? And I'm just saying that there's a lot of parallels between what happened with Kyron Horman and what happened with Gannon Stouck so many years later.

And we're actually going to talk more in detail about Terry specifically because she's got a life and her relationship with Kane. We're going to talk about that next week and we're going to focus on that. But it's important to understand that it seemed right off the bat the police were focused on a theory that Kyron had arrived at school that morning with his stepmother and then left with her as well. So she would go on to say like she had dropped him off, watched him walk into his classroom, and that she had no idea what happened. But things would come out later that kind of showed that may it not have been how it went down. And as soon as Desiree Young found out that her son was missing, she immediately felt that Terry knew more than she was saying. In 2020,

Desiree told OregonLive.com, quote, 10 years is hard. I want Terry to do the right thing, and I want her to end this torture. We just want to bring Kyron home, end quote. Some of Terry's movements on the day that Kyron went missing don't add up, and in the days and weeks and months after Kyron vanished, reports of very odd behavior from Terry began to surface. It was reported that she had tried to hire her landscaper to kill her husband just, I think, five months before Kyron went missing. She attempted to legally change her name more than once after he went missing. She failed two polygraph exams. Actually, it looks like she went in, failed the first one, and then the second one, she kind of felt like she was

failing, and she got up and walked out. And 24 days after Kyron was last seen, his father Kane filed for divorce from Terry. So today we're going to go over the timeline of June 4th, 2010, and this is the day that seven-year-old Kyron seemingly vanished without a trace. But first, it's important to know what kind of person Kyron was. For the most part, Kyron lived with his father, Kane, his stepmother, Terry, and his 18-month-old sister, Kiara, in a modest blue house on Sheltered Nook Road in northwest Portland. Every other weekend, his mother would pick him up and he would spend a few days with her and his stepfather, Tony Young, in Medford, where Tony worked as a police detective. Chiron loved his time with Desiree and Tony because he got to go on Tony's boat and he got to do other things he enjoyed, such as camping and fishing and

hanging out with his best friend and cousin Mason, who was the son of Desiree's younger sister Kelly. Chiron was known to be very shy and quiet, especially with adults or people he didn't know well, and he would get very anxious if he knew he had to stand up in front of a crowd to give a presentation or sing at a chorus concert. But with children his own age, Chiron was more relaxed, and he was very well liked by his peers, who found him to be intelligent, laid back, and very funny at times. But above all else, Chiron loved science, especially forensic science. Both his parents and their respective spouses were very into watching crime shows, especially Dexter. And Chiron wanted to learn everything he could about forensics and police procedure, one day hoping to become a detective like his stepfather, Tony. In the fall of 2009, Chiron had been over the moon when he found out that a forensics exhibit would be making a stop at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry in Portland, and when he visited this exhibit, he purchased a

t-shirt from the gift shop. It was a black t-shirt with the letters CSI printed on it in green, and the front of the shirt showcased various CSI graphics like a handprint and a double helix, and on the day he went missing, Chiron was wearing this shirt, along with black cargo pants, white socks, and black Skechers sneakers with orange trim. On that Friday morning, before Chiron left for school and before his father Kane left for his job as a software engineer for Intel in southwest Portland, father and son were able to find a quiet moment to talk alone. Kane told Chiron that he was proud of him for working so hard on his science fair project, and he promised him that later that evening they would play video games together on the Wii. Before leaving for work, Kane told Chiron that he loved him, and Chiron responded,

I love you too, Dad. Several things set that day apart from others. Certain things happened that wouldn't usually happen on an average school day. Chiron would usually take the bus to school in the morning, but on this day, his stepmother, Terry, was going to drive him into school. According to Terry's mother, Carol Moulton, this was because Chiron was very proud of his project and he wanted his stepmother to see it. Carol said, quote, he was so excited about his science project. They had worked on it together. Terry raised Chiron. She's been with him since he was an infant. She's as much of a mom as the mom is because the parents had separated around the time Chiron was born. End quote. It was also a change that on this day, Terry decided to drive her husband's 2005 white Ford F-250 instead of her trademark red Mustang, which bore a distinctive vanity plate that read RDSQL, which apparently, reportedly stands for Red Squirrel.

And this was a nickname that Terry was given due to her long, thick red hair. Kane had given Terry the car as a Mother's Day present in 2007. And she posted a picture of it to her Facebook page with the caption, quote, something shiny for the driveway. Yes, Kane is all that and a bag of chips, end quote. So I do want to step in with an aside here quickly. Within the weeks after Chiron's disappearance, the media was reporting that Cain and Terry had started their love story in a very different way than it appears they actually had. The reports coming from alleged family and friends of the couple claimed that Chiron's

parents, Desiree and Cain, had met in 2000. They'd fallen in love, they'd gotten married, but their relationship quickly went downhill and they planned to separate. But then Desiree found out she was pregnant, so they gave it another shot, but it didn't work. So Desiree filed for divorce in August of 2002, and Kyron was born the following month. And in 2003, Kane and Desiree's divorce was finalized. At that time, Kyron was mainly living with his mother, but in 2004, Desiree suffered from kidney failure and she had to go to Canada for treatment. At that time, Kyron moved in with his father. And all of that is true from what I can tell, but the reports continued on, stating that because Kane had such a demanding job, he asked Desiree's friend Terry to move in with him

to act as almost a live-in nanny for his very young son. Amanda Howards, who's Kane's sister-in-law married to his brother Christian, she told OregonLive.com, quote, someone had to watch the baby. Terry was her friend. She moved in just to help with the baby, end quote. Terry also brought her then 16-year-old son James to live with Kane and Kyron, and this was a child that had been the product of her first marriage. Overall, Terry would be married three times. Two months after moving to Canada, Desiree returned to the States, but she was financially strapped due to over $30,000 of medical bills.

So she began living with family in Medford, Oregon, about a four-hour drive from Portland until she got back on her feet. The early reports claim that even after Desiree was back in Oregon, Kane and Terry continued to live under the same roof and quote, what started as a caregiving relationship blossomed, end quote, leading to the two exchanging vows on a beach in Kauai. I wonder if they were with Lori and Chad. I was just about to say, what is up with Kauai? I love Kauai and these people are just like. Do you think it's like stay

away do you think it like reflects negatively on you that you love i mean i was there for work i mean i was sent there so but i did love the place so yeah i don't know man i can't blame them i guess i mean it's where couples go it's a a romantic place. I mean, I was there moved in to help take care of the baby. And then one thing led to another. And it's like, come on, man, what is this? A fairy tale? Is this Cinderella? You know, like what's happening here? That is not what happened at all. According to Desiree, she hated Terry for a while. They never really got along. They were never friends. And Cain was stepping out with Terry long before anything had officially ended between himself and Desiree. In fact, Desiree would see a framed picture in Chiron's room after he went missing. It was a picture of Chiron as a

newborn in the arms of Terry. And Desiree was struck with shock when she saw this picture because she could remember the day that it must have been taken. Chiron was only a few weeks old. She'd asked Cain to help her with the baby so that she could spend some quality time with her other son, Quinn, a child from a previous relationship that she was in. Cain took Chiron out for the day, and it was only when she saw the photo that Desiree realized he had taken their son straight to the arms of the woman he'd been having an affair with. The early reports also claimed that the Hormans were a tight-knit family that loved doing things together. Quote, they play board games, go bowling with friends, and take trips.

In 2009, they visited Walt Disney World in Florida. Late last year, they went to the Roloff Farm in Galvetia, where the reality TV show Little People, Big World is filmed. And recently, they peered at the animals at the Oregon Zoo. Terry volunteered at Skyline School where Kyron was in the second grade and she took him to swimming lessons with James and with Kiera, end quote. And all of that could be true, right? Like I can say, based on what Desiree Young claims, you know, she and Terry were not friends. This is not how the relationship started. And it does look like Kane would kind of eventually admit that, like, yeah, he he'd kind of already been in a relationship with Desiree when he picked up with Terry. So clearly this wasn't just some like, oh, thank you so much for helping me. And now I can't resist you because you're perfect for me and you're living in my house.

And they they were already going to be together. But they could have been like a happy family. You know, they could have done things together. They could have played board games. If you look at board games, they could. I don't know what they did, man. It seemed like they did. But that doesn't really mean anything. Right. Because if you look at like Letitia Stouck and Gannon Stouck, like they did all that stuff, too. They always traveled and a close knit family. And sometimes I feel like people will do that stuff because they want to appear to be this perfect happy family. And so they're going through the motions, doing the

things that they think happy families are supposed to do. Not necessarily Cain in this situation, but definitely from what we're going to learn about Terry, maybe Terry. She really cared a lot about what things looked like from the outside. She cared about her appearance. And she wanted people to know what a good mom she was, how much she sacrificed. Like, I'm raising somebody else's child as my own and I'm doing so much and et cetera, et cetera. We are going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back. All right. So we're back from break now. And I will tell you again, every case is different. But if any of you have heard me mention it before, this case already has some similarities to the

Michelle Norris case, which I covered on Breaking Homicide. And it's my number one case as far as if I could solve any case, that would be the one. But in that case, Michelle's father, who was living in a different house at the time, had her during the morning. And allegedly, he took her to get some candy at a local store. And then he dropped her off at her mother's house. And again, I've been to this house a million times. Unfortunately, it's probably 15 to 20 feet from the road to the front door. That's it. It would take literally 13 seconds to walk from the car to the front door. And according to William, Daryl Norris, Michelle got out of the car and he watched her walk up to the door, but he didn't see her go in. And then, you know, Michelle never

made it inside and they found her later. She had been killed and they found her body in the woods nearby. And so this happened in 1988. And so we've spent all these years trying to find the person who grabbed her. And we've always said, and this is, and Daryl Norris knows this, it's all based on his testimony of what happened that day. The fact that he actually dropped her off. And that's why he, to this day, is still considered a suspect because we don't even know if he dropped her off. So when you talk about Chiron and the fact that she brought him to school, and supposedly from what I'm gathering so far, she dropped him off and was

at the science fair and they took a photo and i'm assuming i don't know if you said it directly but her i'm assuming her take on the day is that she left him at school and went on her way right but she never checked into the he was never checked in at attendance right so again you could say on one hand oh poor ter, she dropped him off at school, went to the science fair, left to go on with the rest of her day, and something happened to Chiron at school after she left. And she's going to feel guilty about that, right? Yeah. And again, that's going off the whole idea that that's exactly what happened beforehand, when the reality, and this is nothing against Terry at this point, I'm going to reserve any judgment, but you have to question the foundation of the investigation when it goes all these years

without being solved. Because if you're building, I say this all the time, like I'm broke at record, but if you're, if you're building a house on a shitty foundation, that house is never going to be right. And so if you're going off the last known whereabouts of Chiron, which is at the science fair through this photo, and you're going off that assumption, well, then you could be already going down the wrong path if that's not what actually happened. There is a scenario where Chiron left with Terry just off the bat. That's not me judging her in any way. That's you can't sit here and be reasonable and say that's not possible, especially considering the fact that Kyron never checked into attendance. So just my initial thoughts were when you started talking about it. And she claims she watched him walk into the classroom.

So it's not like Michelle Norris where, oh, he watched her walk up but didn't watch her walk in. Terry claims she watched Kyron walk into his classroom. But I'm assuming the teacher who was inside the classroom has never said, I saw him walk through those doors. No, she said he wasn't there. But there you go. So that's one of those things where, you know, it sounds, it resembles Michelle and we'll see. We'll see as it goes, because there is the one thing I'll say about the school with Michelle, there was nobody around. There were some kids at the park nearby, neighbors. I had questioned an individual who I thought could potentially be involved. I

still think he could have potentially been involved. But in this particular scenario, you have a lot of people, a lot of potential persons of interest, a lot of suspects, if you will, because there's hundreds of people inside that school, a lot of adults. You got teachers, you got custodians, you have administrative assistants, you have whatever you want, bus drivers, whatever, whoever's walking through that school who has permission to be inside there. So there's a lot of potential people who could have walked up and grabbed Kyron. But again, from what you just told me. saw him walk in, which if she wanted to cover her bases, if she was involved, she would leave that window of opportunity where someone could have grabbed him in that small window between going in the classroom and her leaving him. So we'll see how it goes. Just something that initially came to my head. And if you guys want, after you're done listening to this, definitely go look at the Michelle Norris case. It's a terrible case. So I don't want to even call it fascinating, but

part of the reason I brought it up is because Michelle's mom, Julie, literally called me yesterday. We had a conversation about something with that case. So Julie, she's probably watching this. Hi, Julie, if you're watching, she's an angel. So I was thinking, because I do try to be fair sometimes. I love how you prefaced it by saying sometimes. I mean, I do. I try to be fair. Thank you. This was when I was going over the initial timeline and I was like, well, what could have happened? You know, before I got into the details, I'm like, what could have happened? It was the science fair day. So there's a bunch of people at this school that are not normally on the day-to-day there. That's right. Parents, relatives. Yep, absolutely.

Parents, relatives, and maybe the doors are open and because there's a bunch of people in and out. Security's not as tight. Security's not as tight. A stranger isn't going to go, you know, as quickly noticed because the staff's just going to assume, oh, this person's related to a student here. So maybe Kyron did go into his classroom. And then after walking three steps in, he was like, oh, actually, like, I forgot I had to pee and then leaves the classroom to go to the bathroom, planning to come right back to the classroom. And that's when something happens to him.

Right. Yeah. So that's kind of where I was like giving the benefit of the doubt. But then as things start to stack up and add up that the benefit of the doubt seems less likely. Well, right now, when we start this investigation, we know we have a photo of him. right? We know he was at the science fair and then it gets a little gray from there. So there's a few different avenues right now that we have to explore. And we're going to go down each avenue until we come to a dead end. And you basically use reasonable deduction to come to

a conclusion. It doesn't always mean it's right. There is always those outside situations where the one in a million thing happens. And it's hard for the brain to process that, but it does. But yeah, we're going to go down each path. We're going to be fair and impartial as much as we can. But as of right now, the last person to see Kyron alive was Terry. Yes. So she's your prime suspect.

Although the police have never named her as a suspect. That's fine. We'll call her person of interest then. P.O.I. P.O.I. All right. So on the morning of June 4th, 2010, instead of driving her prized red Mustang, Terry decided instead to load seven-year-old Kyron and 18-month-old Kiara into her husband's four-door extended cab truck. Now, allegedly, she claimed she'd done this because she thought she would need to take Chiron's science fair project home at the end of the day, which to me, it doesn't make any sense

because she didn't pick Chiron up from school in the morning. He was scheduled to ride the bus home. And if you were thinking you need to bring his science fair project home, then wouldn't you drive the truck there in the afternoon instead of in the morning? Like, why are you driving it there in the morning? The science project was already there. She wasn't going to take it home at that point when she left the school because the science fair hadn't started yet. So to me, that's not the real reason why she took that vehicle. And as I already mentioned, something else that was different about that day was the time that the doors of Skyline Elementary School opened.

Usually students would not be allowed inside the building until at least 8.35 a.m., but because they were having the science fair that day, the school opened early at 8 a.m., and Terry and Kyron reportedly arrived right after the doors opened. Terry would later tell police that when they arrived at the school, they went to room 213, and this was Kyron's second-grade homeroom, and at that point, he hung up his coat and his book bag. And both Terry and Chiron were seen by multiple people in this classroom, including Chiron's teacher, Christina Porter, who knew Terry on sight due to her volunteer work at the school.

Gina Zimmerman, the Skyline PTA president, saw Chiron and Terry in front of Chiron's red-eyed tree frog exhibit at around 8.15. Terry was taking a photo of Chiron. Terry also took a photo of Chiron. Terry also took a photo of Chiron's friend and classmate Ellie in front of her science project, which was about turtles. And Ellie's mother, Alice Jacobson, witnessed this. Alice would later say that the last time she saw Chiron and Terry, they were walking away together, presumably to go downstairs where there were other classrooms and other science fair projects. It looks like the science fair kind

of was like in the hallway outside of the classrooms. So if your classroom was on that floor, your project would be in the hallway, like lining the hallway of that floor. And so the other classrooms, which it looked like were the kindergarten and first grade classrooms, were downstairs. And they went downstairs and they stopped in for a visit at the classroom of Scott McBeth, who'd been Chiron's kindergarten and first grade teacher. And Kyron was seen in Scott McBeth's classroom by others.

Now, Terry claimed that at 8.45 a.m., when the bell rang, she and Kyron raced back upstairs to his classroom, but they took different staircases. So from what I could gather, it looked like the school had two staircases on separate sides of the building. So on one side of the hall, there's a staircase, and on the other side of the hall, there's a staircase. And both those staircases would allow you to get between the first and second floors. Terry said that Chiron took one set of stairs and she took the other. That doesn't make any sense, but that's what she said. Terry said she stood at the top of the stairs at the east end of the hallway by the gym and waved goodbye to Chiron as he entered his classroom, like at the other end of the hall. She said he saw her

and waved back. Terry then exited the building out to the parking lot, got in her truck and drove away. Okay, real quick, real quick, because I want to be fair here. If she's at the other end of the building, okay, let's just take it at face value for right now Okay, let's not like i'm not going to pick it apart. She's saying she's at the other end of the building And kyron is outside his classroom waves to her and then proceeds to walk in I'm, assuming this classroom if they're if she's looking down the hallway at him The door is to his left or to his right. So I don't know if she's going to be able to see The door itself she might be able to see the door itself. She might be able to see the side of it, but she's not looking head on at it is what I'm saying. So

I wonder. She said she saw him walk into his classroom. So why would she say that if she didn't see it? I don't know. I don't know how she would have, because again, unless his door. No one knows how she would have seen him. You're right. Yeah. She wouldn't have because the stairs are in the east and west side of the building. The doors would have been north and south in that hallway. So even if there's a clear shot, she might be able to see the, I guess, the molding of the door. But she's not going to be able to see in the classroom. She's not going to be able to physically see him open the door and walk in.

She may be able to see him open the door. But as far as him actually entering the classroom i guess you could argue she could at least see him from that profile side that profile view opening the door walking in door shutting behind him um it's almost like it didn't happen that way yeah i mean that's why i'm i'm trying to be fair to it and kind of see what she would see and almost put myself in that view. I know there's been times where I've let Tenley or Peyton walk into something, you know, whether it's a daycare thing or classroom, but I always wait until they're inside fully and the door shuts behind them because obviously my profession. Why would you take two separate staircases on separate ends of the building if you were together on the first floor. I'm not defending her. I'm just trying to give options here. I could see a world where the classroom for Kyron, his classroom, is at the west side of the building.

Is on one end and the exit she's got to take is on the other end? Exactly. So it's like, hey, go up. So, hey, run up that way. So you don't want to walk your kid to class? You just want to like. So, see, that's something where it's like I agree with you 100%. I'm not going to go up there, then just walk them to class and then walk down the hall like a couple feet.

I'm with you. I'm with you. But would be, if we knew this to be true, if we had cameras, would we be like, oh my God, what the hell was she thinking? Like, it's not this most terrible take that it's not the worst thing I've heard here on Crime Weekly, especially where you know, we don't know if this hallway was 10 feet or 100 yards. We don't know how long away it was. It might have just been a small little distance away where she could, you know, throw a baseball to him if she had to. I don't know. But I could see that as a reason. If you want to see, I think we should see it visually, especially for those who are watching on YouTube. I have a clip from a YouTube channel called Kyra and Horman Case Revisited. I believe the woman who runs it is named Samantha. And she was able to get into the school. And for me, it helped to

have that visual because I think that the hallway is like long enough where it's kind of weird. Okay. And we're going to play that clip later tonight? Let's play that. Yeah. Let's play it now why not okay play it now this is the west side of the school this is the doorway at the top of the stairs and that stairwell leads to the soccer field. The stairwell here. So if you come around the west part of the school

to the south side of the school upstairs is 213 which we're pretty sure was Kyron's class. Kyron's brother told me he was pretty sure that's what it was. So the stairwell inside the school and down this flight of stairs onto the soccer field. Now the other stairwell is down there. That's the northwest over there. I can't remember where I saw the inside. Like somebody had a picture of the hallway and it showed. I can't remember. It must not have been this video, but somebody else did. And I can't, but you can see based on the building, how long the hallway would be, right? Yeah, somewhat. I'll be honest. The video didn't help me a ton. I

appreciate her doing it. I wasn't like, oh, now I get it. It's obviously not this huge building, but it's it does seem like it's a decent size. And I guess depending on where where you're going, you may want to use one end we're to assume that Terry did nothing wrong, you know, she's inside the school surrounded by friends and family and teachers. And obviously Kyron's inside, he's safe. She sees him, you know, open the door. She turns her back, walks out thinking nothing, nothing, nothing could go wrong at this point. He's a foot away from the door. But to your point, again, we're very early in this and this could change, but you know what, you could look at it as, you know, Kyron walks into classroom and up to this point, Terry's telling the truth. He walks in and then as kids do, you know, they realize, oh, I have to pee, runs back out real quick. I'm just going to go to the bathroom. I'm gonna be fine. And the one thing I did take away from that video is this say for a second that Kyron did come

back out after Terry had walked out of the building well even if it's only a couple minutes if there's someone else there who has some bad intentions you could walk right out that door to that soccer field and you can go off into the woods nobody's gonna if nobody's out there it's a clear line of sight right to the woods and I don't know what the the geography is around there after that but it looked like a pretty wooded area that you could kind of sneak off into. Oh, it's like rainforest, dude. Well, there you go. Yeah.

So if you're to assume that, you know, we have to, you know, we can't just automatically sit here and say, it's Terry, right? So we have to play all avenues. And an avenue is that there was someone at that school that day who maybe shouldn't have been there or had the right to be there but had this you know it was a monster amongst us right they had this other this urge to do something like this and they saw Kyron alone walked out that backside and they could disappear right into that brush and never be seen or heard from again so what I think it is for me though that it also disputes kind of showed the exit that Terry would have taken. And it didn't go out to the parking lot.

It went out to like a soccer field. That's a video. Yeah. She would have had to walk around the building. Are you sure that's the exit that she's because I didn't see it in that video. Because she said the other one was the northwest. So that would have been the east. Yep.

That Terry claims she took. Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless like we don't have the layout where that that would lead been the east that Terry claims she took. Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless we don't have the layout where that would lead to the parking lot. It seems like that would be to the back of the school where you would go out to the soccer field for gym or something like that. Yeah, the gym entrance. She said it was by the gym entrance. So I'm going to send you another video really quick, and I want you to watch it really quick. Okay.

Okay. We're going gonna play it for everybody here right now yeah this is also from the kyron horman case revisited website or youtube channel so i am at the front of the school and i just wanted to show you guys in the window here is is the stairwell leading up to the second floor right past that first banner. So going that way down that hallway would be Kyron's room. This is the stairwell leading down. And if you walk down these stairs. And go right. I can show you where Kyron's classroom is...

She was probably 150 feet away from where Kyron's room is. We know that because my husband measured the front of the school and it is 200 feet long. A lot of people have also been asking where Kyron's classroom was. So this will give you guys a good idea. This is the corner of the front of the school. The corner is on the west side of the school. And those windows are Kyron Horman's classroom, room 213. All right. So I guess there's probably a little discrepancy then, because as you can see in this video, you guys definitely have to watch this.

Even if you're not YouTube people, if you're really interested in this case, you got to go over to our YouTube video or the video that she just referred you to check this out. Cause this adds a whole different dimension to it other than just listening on audio. But it appears in this video, she's suggesting that Terry was at the front stairwell, the exit entrance of the school building, if you will. And then she walked down the side of the school and she didn't go all the way, but if she had continued walking, she would have been right around the same spot that she was in that first video where the soccer field is. So that is interesting for a couple of reasons. One, Terry, from what you were saying, Stephanie said she came out the door near the gym, which

would have been that backside, which to your point would make no sense because she would have to walk down. Now she could have walked out that way and walk down that same path that that woman just walked down to walk out to the front. That's possible, but it wouldn't make a lot of sense. If I were to guess and everything was on the up and up, Kyron walked up the backside of the stairs near the soccer field to go into his classroom because 213 was at that end and Terry not wanting, I guess being lazy or whatever, didn't want to go to the classroom. So she walked up the other set of stairs, looked at the top, saw Kyron at the top,

waved to him, and then she can just walk out the front door to her car. Again, some of you may be judging her on that. That's fine. It's your opinion. But again, at this point, if we're just to take it on the up and up, maybe not what you would do, but it could be, it's a scenario that could have been true. Yeah. It's not about judging her because I wouldn't judge her for that because there's lots of people who just drop their kids off like don't even get out of the car and sign them in.

Don't even get out of the car. And they expect, you know, the kids at school. Someone's going to get them to his classroom. Right. Exactly. Not a big deal at all for me. It's the fact that like your story doesn't make any sense. So you saw the distance between like where she would have been and where his classroom was about 150, 200 feet. Right.

Yes. So. Well, why doesn't it make sense to you, though, if she went up those stairs? I want to make sure I'm following you. I just I don't understand why you would be with your child and then be like, hey, wouldn't it be fun if we like took separate staircases? You know, like if you're gonna walk up the stairs because then you'd have to walk back down the stairs

to go back out to the parking lot, right? So if you're gonna walk up the stairs to that hallway, to that second floor, why wouldn't you just walk up with him? Because it's not as if, you know, oh, this is closer, right? Like you still have to go back downstairs and back out. So if you were just going to go out to your car why not just go out to your car while you're still on the first floor why walk up to the second floor at all like and

she saw him and he saw her and they waved to each other you know we're going to talk about in a minute why that doesn't make any sense yeah i would simply say like if it was me i'm walking up the set of stairs with my son or daughter i I'm going to walk up the one set of stairs, drop them off their classroom and just create that loop. Just continue the loop, right? Like you go up, drop them off, continue down the hallway, come the, what was down in the basement there? Was it just another hallway, another classroom, the kindergarten you were saying? Kindergarten, first grade classroom. Yeah. On the first floor, maybe Kyron's at the other end and she yells down and says, Kyron, go up the stairs. You got to go to class. I'll meet you at the top. I want to make sure you're in there. I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm just saying it's possible. Not something you or I, or probably most of our listeners or viewers would do, but let's just say she goes, Hey, go up the top of

stairs. Meet me up there. She goes up the stairs. She sees Kyron pop his head around the corner as he comes up the stairs by my mom. See you later. And you know, he walks in the classroom and that's, and she turns around and leaves. If you're to believe that scenario, it's not, like I said, it's not about like what I would do or not do because your kids in the school, they should be safe no matter where they are. Agreed. Agreed. Um, and because that's not true I said, it's not about like what I would do or not do because your kids in the school, they should be safe no matter where they are. Agreed. Agreed. And we know that's not true. We just covered a kid that was 28 years old, whatever it was in school. But there's going to be plenty of times when your child has to leave their classroom and to walk throughout the school without you there. So it's not a big, we can get into that too, but it's such a trust put into the teachers and everyone else, the faculty at the school when you drop your kids off because for eight hours a day, they're responsible for their safety. Scary, but I digress.

Yeah, it is scary. But to me, it's not about like, oh, I wouldn't do that or I would do that. It just seems convenient given the circumstances. Considering the situation. Yeah, that's fair. Because you don't know this yet about Terry, but you will because I'm going to go into her life next time. She used to be a teacher, allegedly. So she has her teacher, which is Letitia Stouck too, dude. Okay. So she got her teaching degree, but it turns out she never really had a full-time

job teaching. She would just sub here and there and never really ended up like following through with anything. But I think that she cared so much about how she's viewed, once again, that instead of being like, oh, yeah, I told him go up to his classroom and then I don't know what happened to him, which would have been easier for her because then at that point, anything could have happened. I agree. He may never got to his classroom. He might not have even reached that. You don't know anything could happen between that point and you would have nothing to do with it.

And it would not be your fault because your kids at school and they should be safe to walk up a couple stairs and go to their classroom. But because she used to be a teacher, because she volunteered there, she had to show, oh, see, I'm still responsible. Like I watched him walk into that classroom, even though now that's the part of your story that don't make no sense. That doesn't make any sense because it's not like he walked into a closet and went to Narnia, right? There's the hallway and then there's a classroom. You're in the hallway. There's students and teachers in the classroom. So what happened? He just like dropped into a black hole, dude. Like now your story doesn't make any sense because you had to look good. You had to look like the responsible good

parent like Letitia Stout did all the time. And Letitia Stout caught herself up all the time because she talked too damn much because she wanted the police and everyone to think she was such a good person and she could never do anything wrong. And she was so responsible, like to a fault she was responsible. But then you say too much shit that doesn't make sense and you get yourself caught up. I agree with everything you said. And that's kind of where I was going with it because I was going to pose the question, which you've already answered. Could it be a situation where she made a bad parental decision by allowing her stepson

to walk up a flight of stairs by himself? That's not a bad parental decision. He's at school. But I think in fairness, you probably should, again, we're judging in hindsight, right? But I'm just saying in hindsight now, knowing what happened, if she had just walked him to class, like I think most parents would have done. But Derek, that's like saying you shouldn't let your kid take the school bus because now the kid has to get off the school bus and walk into the school by himself and get himself to the classroom like he does every morning. I'm with you.

Is that a bad parental decision? But what I'm saying is if she had walked into class, then this probably doesn't happen, right? So could it be a scenario where because she feels guilty and she wants to look good, like you said, she wants to be responsible and she doesn't want obviously Cain to hold her responsible for what happened to his son. She tried to make herself look good by saying, hey, although I didn't walk up the same flight of stairs, I can't lie about that because maybe someone else saw that we didn't. And that's why I think she lied about the two staircases because now somebody can't say like, oh no, you weren't with him when you were in the hallway. She can be like, oh, I was at the end of the hallway waving. You didn't see me. So if she's lying

about that to try to make herself look good, there is a scenario here where even though she's not guilty of any crime because she lied, it made her look like she's guilty. So I just want to keep that in perspective here, where the thing that sounds the most off is this whole two staircase thing. And the, in the re the reality is she could be just lying because of guilt or wanting to not look bad. And if she had just told the truth, like, Hey, unfortunately I let him go up the stairs by himself. I obviously in hindsight, I shouldn't have done it. I thought he would have been fine. But if she did that, like you said, it opens up that door where anybody could have stopped

Kyron while walking up those stairs. And before he even got up to the second flight of stairs, which were where room two 13 was this individual walked him out the back door into that soccer field right into the woods or down that pathway out the side of the building to this person's car. There's so many variables that come into play if the last time that Kyron is seen by Terry is at the bottom of the stairs before he heads up as opposed to going into the classroom. That's where it gets- And now she has wiggle room. Well, you pose it.

I love how you put that. Yeah. Wiggle room or a more reasonable scenario where someone else, another offender could have came in. It did something to Kyron. Now, you know, this whole story, you wrote the script. So again, this could change, but I'm just trying to go on the journey with the viewers and listeners who are not familiar with this case and kind of give a fair shake to Terry at this point where I'm going to say, okay, I got to go off what she's saying, which is that she walked into the classroom.

But I'm also, as an investigator, going to take into consideration that not everyone tells me the truth. And sometimes it's for self-serving reasons, not necessarily because they're guilty of a crime. So there is a scenario here where she's lying to me as the investigator about where she dropped him off because she's trying to make herself look better, not necessarily because she did something to Kyron. So both scenarios are plausible at this point. Still got about a half a script to go, so that could change, but that's just where my head is right now. Maybe you guys feel different. If you do, way down in the comments, timestamp it, let me know. I could be an idiot, but that's where I'm at. Okay. I mean, I think I am like being fair to her. I'm not just like assuming she's guilty. You did say, oh, wiggle room. I mean, the words that are used

are the inference. Because if you're lying, you dumbass, you want to give yourself a period of time where he's not in your sight that anything could happen. That's what I'm saying. Hello. So the fact that she didn't do that could mean. No, the fact that she didn't do that means she's a narcissist who needs people to think that she's super responsible and the best parent ever so that nobody can judge her, even though all the other shit that came out after was like judge worthy. I can hear that objectivity in your voice, by the way. Kudos to you. It really kind of melts away after a while.

Kudos to you. Let's take a quick break before we continue because we covered a lot there. This will be our last break, by the way. Okay, so Terry and Kyron go up different staircases. She watches him go in his classroom. Allegedly, he waves at her. She waves at him. She goes out to the truck.

She's gone. Now, at that time in Chiron's classroom, the students were scheduled to be broken up into smaller groups, and then they would be brought through the science fair exhibits, each group with an adult chaperone. When the students returned to their classroom after the fair and they did a roll call, Kyron was not there. And the chaperone who would have been in charge of his group claims he wasn't with her either. Specifics of what happened at Skyline Elementary School after that are not clear. But it does appear that Kyron's teacher, Ms. Porter, did mark him absent, although his book bag and coat were still in the classroom. And the school had been told that this was an excused absence. Ms. Porter later claimed that she'd been given some sort of documentation by Terry the previous day, and this paperwork was meant to monitor Chiron's behavior in school, and it needed

to be returned to his doctor the following day, and so she assumed he was not in class because he had a doctor's appointment, and some of this assumption was driven by the fact that Terry had emailed Ms. Porter a few days prior, telling her that Chiron did had a doctor's appointment. And some of this assumption was driven by the fact that Terry had emailed Ms. Porter a few days prior, telling her that Kyron did have a doctor's appointment on Friday, June 4th. But in the aftermath, Terry claimed this had been a mistake and the appointment had actually been the following week, Friday the 11th. This is what she's saying. There are new reports out that Terry Horman told her stepson, Kyron's teachers, on the morning he disappeared that he had a doctor's appointment later that day. She claims she said she alerted them to the appointment, which was going to happen the following Friday. I know you look at that information.

You say there's something that doesn't work here. Well, yeah, it's actually quite significant because this was actually the last day of school. So a doctor's appointment the following Friday would have been pretty irrelevant to the school but the critical thing about this June 4th doctor's appointment is that that put the school in the position of not being concerned at all that Kyron was not in his class wasn't at lunch and wasn't on the bus that afternoon so it looks like at least this point Terry was able to bring Kyron to school establish his presence there and then perhaps take him away at least that's, Terry was able to bring Kyron to school, establish his presence there, and then perhaps take him away. At least that's the theory they're working on, without the

school picking up the phone and calling Cain at work, for example. So, and we should point out again, she is not a suspect at this point. But as you're putting that together, you spent many years, obviously, with the sheriff's department. Does that tell you that there could be some sort of premeditated plan here? Well, obviously that looks like it very much would be a planned issue, especially with the deceptive answers she gave later about, gee, I think I meant June 11th, which would have been long after the school was already out. So the key right now is going back and focusing and reconstructing every hour and minute

that she spent on that fateful June 4th to find out exactly where the holes are in her original story. And part of that timeline is a three-hour block of time where we're not really sure what was happening between the time she dropped Kyron off the last time she saw him at school and when she showed up at the gym. So what you kind of hear this gentleman saying in the clip is that whole Friday, June 11th date wouldn't really make sense for a doctor's appointment either, considering that this was the last week of school. So I think there was only three or four days of school left and they wouldn't have been in school on Friday, June 11th. So it would make no sense for Terry

to have informed Chiron's teacher that he wouldn't be in school on Friday, June 11th, even if she'd given the incorrect date. The fact that she felt she would have to write an email and let this teacher know about this absence on a day when there would have been no school because school was out for the summer didn't make a lot of sense. I'm with you. I'm with you. I will say that I think we can come to a conclusion here that whatever happened to Kyron at this point, knowing that his backpack was in the classroom, and obviously that's from them dropping it off at 8 a.m., regardless of

whether he went back in the classroom for a second or not, within moments of that time from him going up the stairs, whatever happened to Kyron happened at that moment. If it was something that Terry was putting into play, that's when she enacted it. If it was somebody else who kind of cut off Kyron on his way back to class, that's what had happened. That's our window right there for sure. Those two or three minutes, that's all it takes.

In that period, more than likely, that's when something happened to Kyra. Yeah. I mean, if you go based on Terry's story that they even went up to the second floor, that they even like went out, like, you know, that there's no proof of that. So. Right. I mean, I would think, I would think that there would be someone, if Terry was involved She she would assume that people at the fair that people were downstairs would have seen them Go up the stairs so she wouldn't want to lie about that because someone could discredit her But they could have gone up the stairs and then just exited the building right together Right. Yeah Yeah, I mean no cameras on this. I mean obvious i'm asking a stupid question. It's 2010 and yeah 2010 still though I mean, it's a school. I mean, obviously, I'm asking a stupid question. It's 2010. And yeah, 2010 still, though. I mean, I know.

And I think it's like, listen, I think it's a little irresponsible of Skyline Elementary School how this all went down. Because there's another like kid in the class. I think one of Chiron's friend is Tanner, who eventually like kind of brought it up to the teacher like later on. And he was like, Chiron's not here. Where's Chiron? And the teacher, I guess, allegedly, according to like these reports, the teacher was like, oh, I think he went to the bathroom or something. Was there a sign in sheet for that school that day? I don't know. I don't think so. I have so many questions. Just so you know, I have so many questions.

Dude, I'll tell you what, the school hasn't really come out to say a lot. No, I mean, just off the top of my head, you don't have to have answers to these. But some of the things I'm thinking about is, was there a sign-in sheet? You know, usually even if there's like a science fair or whatever is going on, there's an event. Yeah, I don't think so. Everyone has to check in at the front desk. So there's some type of ledger as to who came into the school that day. And usually it has a time stamp on it where you write in what time you checked in, what time you checked out.

Even if you go to just pick your kid up from school. I agree, but I don't think so because after this, the school had to send out this mass text message basically saying, if you were at the school on Friday, come in to be interviewed by the police. Yeah, that's a problem. You're just depending on people to be like, oh yeah, I was there. If you were a criminal and you stole Chiron, you wouldn't be like, oh, I got this text, man. No, I got to go in and have an interview with the police. You'd be like, oh yeah, I was there. Like if you were like a criminal and you like stole Chiron, you wouldn't be like, oh, I got this text, man. Now I gotta go in and have an interview with the police. You'd be like, oh shit, they don't know who was at the school on Friday.

I'm free and clear, right? Also another question that I have, again, probably don't have the answer to it. Pings, cell phone pings for- Oh, I got the answers for that. You do? Okay, we'll get there. Don't let me steer your thunder right now.

I don't have all the cell phone pings, but I got enough cell phone pings. Yeah, I have so many questions, but I'm going to shut up and let you keep going. You keep saying, again, you might not have the answer to it, but I've had the answer to everything you've asked. I asked you if you knew if there was a sign-in sheet. You don't have the answer to that. I said probably not because they had to send out a mass text. Do you know that for sure? That's called a deduction. I'm Sherlock Holmes. Okay. Watson. All righty.

So either way, what I think is the most important thing to take note of at this moment is that Chiron was missing for six hours before anyone ever reported it, before anyone even noticed. And that's a huge time period for a seven year old boy to be missing without one single person looking for him. Do you agree? Do you concur? Do you want me to say it? Because I'm just going to open up another can of worms. Do you not think six hours is a long time for a little boy to be missing? I'll just say this quick because I don't want to make this another conversation. This episode is getting too fucking long already.

But what I would say is the teacher, from what you explained to me, thought that he was not, it was a miscommunication where the teacher felt like he was excused there was an excused absence so she that whole day is going on where she's thinking that chiron's not supposed to be there and if you're to assume that terry's innocent she's going throughout her day assuming that chiron's at the school which is about six hours school is about then tell me why later in the day, one of the Chiron's friends was like,

oh, Chiron's not here. And the teacher was like, I think he might be in the bathroom. How can you think he's at the doctor's appointment and in the bathroom at the same time? Yeah. And his coat and book bag are there. So what that tells me is-

Did you say that earlier and I just missed it? Which part? That she said he might be in the bathroom? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. I must've missed that. So at that point, it just tells me, you don't really know what the hell's going on. And you're not really doing your due diligence. Because the second I see Chiron there at school for the art fest, the art fair, or the science fair, and then he's not there at roll call. I'm gonna be like, let me just check with Terry real quick and make sure she has him you know yeah no i agree with that so yeah he's missing for six hours without one single person looking for him and as we know the the those are the most important hours because at that point you got a lot of time whoever did something to him a lot

of time to do it cover it up and then like give yourself an alibi and get back to where you got to get back to and act like you don't know what's going on so terry claimed she didn't return home until around 1 p.m at which point she got on her laptop. At 1.21 p.m., she took to Facebook and posted the picture she had taken of Chiron in front of his science fair project. She also emailed Chiron's mother, Desiree, to tell her that she had posted the picture on Facebook. And later that afternoon, Terry sent additional emails to Desiree talking about a school t-shirt order and solidifying plans for the summer. And Desiree said this is weird because, once again, we are not friends. We don't talk.

So why is she like sending me all these emails and being so communicative all of a sudden? Well, because she wants, you know, Desiree to know like, I'm at home just playing on Facebook and being a good stepmother and letting you know. She's trying to make it look like she's just behaving normally and doing normal things. At 2 p.m., Kyron's father, Kane, arrived home from work to find his wife on her laptop downstairs. And at 3.15 p.m., he, Terry, and Kiara went out to the bus stop to meet Kyron's bus. But when it arrived, Kyron was not on it. Confused, Kane asked the bus driver to call the school. Kyron was known to be a bit of a daydreamer. Maybe he'd lost track of time trying to get one last look at the science fair projects and he missed the bus.

But when they found out that Kyron was not at school, they immediately got into the car and headed to Skyline Elementary. At 3.46 p.m., Susan Hall, the school secretary, called the police to report Kyron Horman missing. And police officers from the Portland Police Bureau and the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office were at that school and at the Horman home within 45 minutes. It was around 4.24 p.m. that afternoon, and Kyron's mother, Desiree Young, was at her desk at Lithia Motors in Medford, where she worked as the payroll manager. She was just getting ready to head out to pick up both her sons, Quinn and Kyron, in Springfield because it was her weekend with them. Now, usually, Kyron's father, Kane, would bring both sons to a meeting point in Springfield, which was only 100 miles away from Medford as

opposed to Portland, which was significantly further. So it was almost like a halfway point. And it's weird, but her son, Quinn, is from a previous relationship. And Chiron is obviously Cain's son, but Cain and her previous baby daddy were like tight friends. And previous baby daddy's new wife or current wife was tight friends with Terry, Cain's wife. So basically Cain was like, oh, well, I know them. I know Quinn. You know, Quinn knows me because we were together. So I'll just bring them both to you, which was actually pretty nice. But it was Desiree's weekend to have her sons. It was getting close to the meeting time, so she needed to get going. As she was packing up her things, her phone rang.

It was Susan Hall, the secretary at Skyland Elementary School, asking if Desiree had seen Kyron or if she knew where he was. And this was how Desiree found out that her son was missing. Neither Kane nor Terry had called her to let her know, even though they had known for over an hour by that point. Desiree immediately called Terry, who she had been told was the last person to see Chiron, and demanded to know what was going on. Terry told Desiree that she'd watched Chiron walk into his classroom

and they'd waved to each other, but Desiree felt something about Terry's story was not adding up. Desiree knew that Chiron would not have been able to see Terry at the far east end of the hallway because his eyesight wasn't great, and there was also a wall in the hallway that would partially block his view. Later, once she was kind of like faced with this kind of scenario, Terry changed her story and claimed that she and Chiron had not taken different staircases up after all. They had gone up the same staircase. But this was not the only time that Terry's story about the events of that afternoon had changed. Initially, she had told police that after leaving Skyline Elementary, she had traveled to two different grocery stores in search of cold

medicine for her daughter, Kiara, who was suffering from an earache. She'd first gone to a Fred Myers store on Northwest Embria Drive in Hillsboro, about five miles south of the school, but she hadn't been able to find the Motrin that she wanted at that store. So she left and went to another Fred Myers store on Southwest Walker Road in Beaverton. So it's about a nine minute drive between those two stores. Surveillance footage from inside that store showed Terry speaking to a man and it looked like, based on their hand motions and body language, she was asking him where something in the store could be located, and he indicated a specific aisle to her. Terry found what she was looking for and purchased a few other items. But when she was asked later where that Motrin was that she claimed she bought, Terry didn't really know.

She said, oh, it must be around here somewhere. But the Motrin she purchased that day was never found. Neither were the other items she purchased at that store. And this is one of the things law enforcement has kept to themselves. We don't know what she purchased at that store. They just say other items and they have a receipt for it. So they know she did. Could have been like feminine products or something like that, maybe. No, I think that they just like, there's some things that they just do not like say. But either way, none of those things were ever found. The Motrin that she bought, you know, that was so important for Kiara's earache was never found. But she is seen on camera shortly after leaving that school, though. We have that now. That doesn't say too much. But but she is seen shortly after leaving the school, dropping Kyron off. Allegedly, she is seen in this Fred Myers store, you said.

Yeah, it's like a grocery drug store kind of thing. She's seen inside there on surveillance camera and she's only with Kiara at that point. Kyron is not with her. Well, yeah, yeah. Let me let me continue. OK. Law enforcement examined the surveillance footage from these two stores and they found it odd that Terry had parked as far as possible away from the store entrances in a place where there were no other vehicles nearby. When asked about this, she claimed it was because her husband Kane always parked far away from the store entrances, so she did as well. But when asked if this was true, it was reported that Kane

scoffed. The outdoor surveillance cameras also showed Terry driving into these parking lots, and Kiara could be seen in her car seat in the back, but the angle made it impossible to determine if anyone else was in the car. Terry claims she also stopped at 24-Hour Fitness on Twin Oaks Drive in Beaverton. This was a gym she regularly went to, but she claimed she had gotten there around 11.39 a.m. when the gym's electronic system had her clocking in at 12.20 and leaving at 12.42. And during that 22 minutes, her daughter was in the gym's child care center. During that time, Terry didn't work out. She talked to another gym member for a bit.

They said it was a woman that she wasn't known to often, like, communicate with. And she showed a bunch of people at the gym the picture she had taken of Kyron that morning at his school. So she's there for 22 minutes. She doesn't work out. She just like chats a little bit and shows pictures, kind of like she's trying to like establish an alibi. Terry was seen on surveillance leaving that Beaverton Fred Myers, the second Fred Myers she went to at 9.42 a.m. She did not get to the gym until 12.42. That leaves roughly two hours of her afternoon unaccounted for. Now, initially, she told the police that she'd been driving around random back roads trying to get Chiara to calm down and sleep since she was fussy from her earache. But later, Terry would also remember that she'd made two other stops that day.

First, to the Magic Dry Cleaners in Beaverton to pick up her husband's clothes, I believe, and then to Michael's Craft Store, also in Beaverton. Now, during her initial retelling of that day, Terry hadn't said anything about the dry and then to Michael's craft store, also in Beaverton. Now, during her initial retelling of that day, Terry hadn't said anything about the dry cleaners or Michael's. But then she claimed when she went to the dry cleaners that the line was so long she decided not to stay. So initially she says, oh, I went to the dry cleaners to drop some stuff off or pick some stuff up. But then later she changed it again. And she's like, actually, I did go to the dry cleaners and I went inside, but the line was too long. So I left. According to the book, Boy Missing, the police later questioned the clerk at the dry cleaners and they said it had been

quiet that morning. There had been no lines and no one could remember seeing Terry. Even if she had gone to these two places, the dry cleaners and Michael's, it would still leave over an hour of her time that day unaccounted for. And this is time when Terry claimed she was aimlessly driving to soothe her sick baby, who she then literally left at her gym's child care center right after this, earache and all. And that's something, once again, it's like, my daughter's so fussy. I feel so bad for her. She has an earache. I need to go to two stores to get this special Motrin, you know, like the dye-free one. They didn't have the first store. I had to go to another store. And you got to drive around because she's so fussy. But then you go to the gym and bring her to the child care for 22 minutes, like your sick child,

instead of just bringing her home and like, you know, soothing her and putting her to bed because she's like not feeling well and giving her her medicine. It doesn't make sense. So Boy Missing, this is a book by author Rebecca Morris, who not only worked closely with Kyron's mother Desiree to get information, but she also had access to police reports and interview logs. She claims that several people reported seeing Kyron Horman leaving Skyline Elementary School that morning with his stepmother. that Chiron's bus driver, along with a classmate and two of the classmate's family members, who I believe were his grandparents, witnessed Chiron walk through the school parking lot with Terry and her small daughter after 8.45 a.m. Additionally, People magazine would later print that law enforcement sources had confirmed that Terry's story did not match her cell phone records,

and reportedly her phone pinged in a few places she had not mentioned being, such as Highway 30, a place that locals refer to as the road less traveled, as well as a place called Suave Island, which is 10 miles north of Portland, located at the junction of the Columbia and Willamette Rivers, and get this, access to this island can be gained by the Suave Island Bridge, which is located on Highway 30. Travelportland.com describes Suave Island as a natural playground, writing, quote, at 24,000 acres. The Manhattan-sized island is one of the largest river islands in the country. It is large and very expansive, and the island is basically just 24,000 acres of marsh, farm, and wildlife areas, along with river outlets where the two rivers, the Columbia and the Willamette River, meet. And then they would flow 100 miles into the Pacific Ocean.

So if you were maybe looking to get rid of a body and hoping that this body would flow out to the ocean and never be found, Suave Island might be the place where you want to go. And remember I mentioned that Chiron's parents and step-parents loved crime shows, especially Dexter? Well, reportedly, Terry had told a friend that she'd learned from a Dexter episode that the best place to get rid of a body is in water. Yeah, not looking good for Terry. Not looking good at all. So Desiree Young and her detective husband, Tony, were driving full speed from Medford to Portland, and Desiree received a call from Terry on their way there. And at first, Desiree was like, oh, thank God, you know, Kyron's been found. It was just a misunderstanding. He was hiding or he was at a friend's house. And she thought'm I'm just so worried about Kyron because he doesn't have his coat and and there's a janitor at the school I'm suspicious about and Desiree was like what the hell is this woman talking like I'm speeding I'm not there I'm speeding to get there so I can like figure out what's going on and help look for my son and she's just calling me like telling me she's worried he doesn't have his coat like does she think he's outside does she think

he got kidnapped why is she talking about this janitor like is she trying to stress me stress me out? Now, obviously, when a child goes missing, one of three things happened. They were taken by a stranger, they were taken by someone they know, or they wandered off on their own. Every single person who knew Chiron vehemently said he would not wander off on his own. He was far too timid for that. Even Terry's mother, Carol, said, quote, he's a little bit dreamy. He's a sweet kid. He gets distracted. He's a little bit dreamy. He's a sweet kid. He gets distracted. He's your typical second grader. He's not real adventurous.

He's a little timid. But if a friend wanted to go outside and look at something, he would follow the friend. He has a friend who regularly gets in trouble with the classroom because he talks too much, end quote. Now, it was said that Chiron wouldn't even venture far from, you know, his home, like in the familiarity of his neighborhood. He would get insecure and anxious if he was alone and in the familiarity of his neighborhood. He would get insecure and anxious if he was alone and out of sight of his house. Crime experts have also reviewed the available evidence, and they believe it is far more likely based on the scenario, based on the situation, that Chiron was taken by someone he knew, someone he had a pre-existing relationship with rather than a complete stranger. When you say experts have reviewed the evidence,

they've had access to the actual case file that we don't? So I was going through newspapers.com and I think a couple months, maybe July, the following July, it said two local crime experts and then they gave their name. But basically people, like retired cops and stuff, they were based on what we know on like how how things went down like the fact that she saw him go in and the fact that he was in school and by that time classes had started it just makes more sense that this was like an inside job that this wasn't just some stranger danger because he wouldn't follow they had an FBI profiler also from Quantico brought in. And the FBI profiler did a profile on Chiron. And it was basically like given his history, like things that people said about him. He even looked at his homework and like his writing and stuff.

He said, this is a shy kid. This isn't a kid who's just going to go along with some random stranger who's like, hey, kid, I have like candy in my truck or something like that. Like Chiron's going to be a little bit more like hanging back from that. He's also like super into cop shows, super into like police work, into forensics and stuff. So he was just regularly kind of just a suspicious kid who was kind of hung back and wanted to get a read on a situation before he dove right in. So maybe not a complete stranger, but if it's not Terry, maybe we could be talking about a teacher or a custodian or a lunch aide, someone that he had seen frequently. Yeah, except all those people.

Yeah. Remember, Terry said something about a janitor she was suspicious of, right? Yeah. She had said something where, again, if we're not going to go off Terry's analysis, there's a lot of people in that school that Kyron had seen every single day that were adults. Yeah, they've cleared everyone though. Previous teachers, janitors, lunch aides, a lot of adults that could have something that we're not familiar with and taking advantage of a situation.

They were also, you can't clear them from the decade either. So everyone who admitted to being there, like as far as staff that was scheduled and anyone who came forward and was like, yeah, I was there, all those people have been cleared. Interesting. Cleared completely. That's what the papers say. The papers. They say like they have no, well, the police said,

you know, eventually years later, it's like, there's no suspects. Like we have, you know, they kind of, and you might say like, maybe they focused on Terry too soon and got tunnel vision and didn't pay enough attention to potential other suspects. Right, because if I told you that there was a killer within that school, that if like, if this all came out where I just said, hey, here's the result,

there was a killer in that school, it was a former teacher, this person was a sicko, kind of like a Rexfuehrer woman that's living the family life, but had this secret room. You know, if I said that to you, would you be shocked? Would you be like, Oh my God,

I can't believe it. There was a teacher. That was a serial killer. Yeah. Anytime I hear that there's a teacher who's a secret serial killer and they have like a secret room in the school, like a tortured chamber, I'm going to be shocked.

No, not in the school, not in the school, but like in their home, like everyone who teaches, are we to think like all of our educators and all the people that work in these schools are just, you know, perfect people? So this was like a serial killer because you think other kids be popping up missing then, right?

No, not necessarily a serial killer. I was giving an example. I'm giving an example that's saying, is it possible that there was someone in that school? I suppose anything is possible, which is why, you know, there was enough reasonable doubt. Oh, clearly. There's so many people there that could potentially be involved i mean how they can't say 100 possible yeah you can't say with 100 certainty but i will say he could have sprouted wings and flown away i mean well that's not possible that's not physically possible aliens are more possible with the recent developments that's for sure so i guess as long as

you know aliens exist there's reasonable doubt for every missing well i think i think there's i think there's to bring it back to make it on a more serious note i think that's the problem with this case is although there's things that are incriminating for terry yeah circumstantially right there's circumstantially there's just too. You can't say with 100% certainty that there's not someone in that school who was familiar with Chiron who could have taken advantage of a situation and said, hey, let's go this way. They're having a game out back. We're going to go that way and check it out. There's a soccer game. They're playing in the woods.

I mean, it's someone that he's seen every single day. And they could have went right out the back of the school. Now, you're saying that the police vetted all these people. I don't know how they would vet them. I mean, I'm sure you would just need to have some sort. I mean, if you're a teacher and you're at that school or even a janitor or like, you know, somebody working there like you're you have to be somewhere. Right. So it was 345. The bells had rung.

All the teachers have to be accounted for in their own classrooms. And if they're not like the students are going to be like, actually, Mr. X was late to class that day, you know, or lunch lady Agnes didn't show up to lunch that day. You know, like you'd have you'd have to have your time accounted for. So I'm sure if any of these these staff members were like, oh, where was I at 345? Like they're in a school. They have a job. They got to be somewhere. You just give an example of 345. I'm at 845, 845. My bad.

Custodians, I guess. I mean, obviously you can interview everyone. I'm sure they did that. And they probably all had locations where they were just trying to play it out. What do you think about the gap in Terry's day and the fact that her phone pinged on highway 30 and the fact that her phone pinged on the suave island which i mean if you want to get rid of somebody you go to like this island yeah how far is highway 30 from from from the school it's not close is it like completely out of the way from the gym they literally call it the road less traveled like people don't just go there to go

there and so she was pinged she leaves the school at nine o'clock right around nine o'clock 8 45 ish 8 45 nine o'clock and when does her phone ping at this location is it immediately said okay because that's that's obviously important right it's one of those things where. But I would assume it would be at some point in those, you know, those two hours that were unaccounted for. Yeah, those two hours that are unaccounted for. So she still would have gone to the Fred Meyers and all that before that, before going to Highway 30. Right. So at that point, if we're to assume. She's making, allegedly, if she was responsible for this, she's creating an alibi

before and after. She's creating an alibi where she can be seen on surveillance, where people will see her. She's specifically going on her way to talk to people,

but she's making sure to keep her vehicle as far away from the store entrances as possible. Right? So at this point, Kyron's already,

he's already being secured or he's already deceased he's already he's like he's being he's unable to move i think when she's at the stores he's in the car but she told him to keep down maybe it was a game or something like stay down stay out of sight you know um like we're gonna i'm gonna see if we can play this game or maybe she said oh something scared like stay down so nobody sees you and nobody can. Regardless, I think he was in that car. I don't think that anything happened to him until the Suave Island, which would have been between the Fred Meyers and the gym. She didn't go to no dry cleaners and no Michaels. Okay. Like in my opinion, allegedly. Your objectivity, Stephanie, is astounding.

There's no evidence. There's no evidence that she went to those places So if there's no evidence of it, it didn't happen. Okay, you go to michael's you go to michael's they got surveillance cameras there All right, you purchase something nobody goes into michael's and doesn't buy something Okay, that's a fact because I go to michael's all the damn time and every time I buy something So you got a receipt for michael's lady? No Okay. Well, what else do we have? The dry cleaners. Okay. You went to there to pick up clothes or drop off clothes, but then you were like, actually, I did go there, but the line was too long. And then the

dry cleaners is like, I don't know if she's talking about no line. We were completely dead that day. I mean, it's like a Friday morning. I'm not sitting here saying it looks good. It doesn't look good. So I don't think she went to those places. I think that whole like two, two and a half hour period was spent bringing Kyra in wherever she brought him. Okay. Which would be Suave Island in my opinion. Okay. Which would be a great place.

Like I looked at pictures, man. This place looks literally just like wild, wild. It's just like water and trees and greenery and it's beautiful. People go there to fish and camp and stuff. Like it's a wildlife preserve basically, but it's just like water and trees and greenery and it's beautiful people go there to fish and camp and stuff like it's a wildlife preserve basically but it's like huge and it's out there and there's like very it's very wild like if you wanted to hide someone you could do it what if they grabbed her clothes or anything from that day um well i'm gonna talk about that in a minute yeah definitely would want to grab her if so i'm not saying it for any, I mean, for people like, wait, why would they want her clothes?

Obviously, if there's certain types of soils or grass located on Suave Island, if they found any trace evidence in her sneakers, things like that. Even hurt the tires, I feel like, right? Tires, the whole nine yards. You'd want to MVAC that entire vehicle. I don't think they did that. Okay. Yeah. But I couldn't say, like I said, they haven't revealed everything.

Right. So. And this is the disclaimer we have to put on all these cases. I am doing it now where it's like, we're, we're making an analysis on a case where there's been, I can guarantee you more done than what we know. Like we have probably 30% of everything that the police have. And that's, and honestly, that's being generous. You know, that's unfortunate, but that's just, that's, that the police have. And honestly, that's being generous.

That's unfortunate, but that's the truth. It would clear up a lot of questions, but I get it. It's a relatively new case and can't give everything away, especially if they feel like they know who did it. All right. Well, by 7 p.m. that night, Multnomah County Sheriff's Office had discussed the need for a coordinated search and rescue effort for Kyron. And between 7 and 7.45 p.m., Sheriff Dan Staton called the FBI personally to alert them of the situation and to ask for help. By 8 p.m., the first search teams arrived at Skyline Elementary and they began looking for Kyron. And by, I think it was like 10.45, the police announced that they had thoroughly checked the entire school building, including all crawl spaces, storage areas, classrooms, outbuildings, even the roof.

At 1044 p.m., someone called in a tip telling the police to make sure they check the train tunnel near the school because, as this caller said, sometimes kids play in there, but that turned up empty as well. Desiree and her husband, Tony Young, arrived to the home of Kane Horman by 9.40 p.m. And Desiree claims that when they knocked on the door, Terry greeted them enthusiastically and asked if they wanted coffee or some food because people have been dropping off a lot of food. Tony and Desiree both said that Terry did not seem distressed or upset in any way. She actually seemed unusually cheerful and upbeat for the situation that they found themselves in. And Desiree claims that at the time they arrived, Terry was very busy washing Chiron's clothes, including the coat and backpack that had been left at his school that day. Desiree's ex-husband, Kane, was clearly upset. His eyes were red as if he'd been crying, but Terry wasn't crying, as Tony Young would later

comment saying, quote, she was not a bit upset. She was playing the hostess. It was like she was having guests over for dinner, end quote. So obviously Tony Young is a cop, but he's not a cop in this capacity. He's there for his wife, Desiree, but as a cop, he's still going to be paying attention to these things. And he's going to be like, this is weird. He's worked cases. He knows what to expect. He knows when somebody's being suspicious and he felt that

terry was being super suspicious you know if they brought in canines when they searched the school kind of trait to track uh chiron's uh trace see if they could pick up a scent nothing huh nothing seeing him go out the like nothing where they would lead them out the back towards the soccer field anything like that okay they didn't pick up a scent at all, probably. Not that I know of. Okay. Ah, you didn't know the answer. I mean, it's not that I don't know the answer.

It's that the answer is not there to be known. So you don't know? I don't know. Okay. So detectives at the house, at Chiron's house, they'd already searched it, as well as both Terry and Kane's vehicles. They brought scent dogs in there. Chiron's house, they'd already searched it, as well as both Terry and Kane's vehicles. They brought some dogs in there. And now they wanted access to each of the four parents' cell phones so they could download the information. And reportedly, Terry was the only one who kind of

was like balked at this. She had a problem with it a little bit. She was like, oh, like, I'm not gonna have any privacy. Like, this is a violation of my privacy. Like, they're gonna have access to everything on my phone. They were also asked to make lists of people they knew, friends, co-workers, relatives, babysitters, doctors, anyone who seemed suspicious. While all of this was happening, Tony Young, who's Desiree's husband and Kyron's stepfather, he called one of his buddies, a Medford patrol officer, and requested that this guy go to Tony's house, open the safe, and remove an ID kit. So six months prior, Tony had done these ID kits for both Chiron and Desiree's older son, Quinn.

And it consisted of a cheek swab for DNA as well as fingerprints. Tony asked the patrol officer if he could bring Chiron's kit to Portland, along with some extra clothes and things, because Tony was like, I think we're going to be here for a little while. Now, by this point, all four parents had also given their alibis. And obviously, Desiree and Tony were quickly cleared because they'd been hundreds of miles away. And police were able to confirm that Kane had been at work. And that left only Terry, who could not accurately account for her time out of the house that afternoon. At 2 a.m. on Saturday, June 5th, Desiree and Kane went to the command center at Skyline Elementary School, and they were both interviewed by detectives.

During Desiree's interview, she informed the police that she heavily suspected Terry knew more than what she was saying. And it kind of appears that the police were already on the same page because we would find out later that they had put a wire on Kane to record his wife, pretty much like from the get. And they put a tracker on his vehicle in case Terry drove it again. Detective Mark Herron also told Desiree and Kane that they were running through a list of nearby registered sex offenders. By 5 a.m., another search and rescue group was called in by the sheriff's office, and by the time they arrived, there was already about 70 people searching for Kyron. At noon, during a press conference that day, a spokesperson from the sheriff's office said that Kyron was still being looked at as a missing person and this had not reached the level

of a criminal investigation. That day, search and rescue teams moved out from the school and preformed a grid search around the school. Now, Skyline Elementary School sits at the edge of hundreds of acres of thick rainforest, so there was some concern that maybe Chiron had wandered into that and gotten lost, but they did bring sent dogs out. There was no sign of him, no scent of him. Chiron was not there as far as they could tell. And I think people think two miles is not a big area, but two miles doing a grid search is a big area. If you're thinking that Chiron wandered off on his own, he's not going to go further than two miles, probably. He's probably going to realize early on he got lost and either turn back or hunker down and wait for someone to

find him. Yeah, two miles, especially in a wooded area, can take a while. You could walk right by something, not realize they're there. So by Saturday night, Desiree's sister, Kelly, had arrived, and she too was noticing Terry's positive outlook, and she too felt that Terry was playing the role of sparkling hostess instead of worried parent. And Kelly also saw that there was very little interaction between Terry and her husband, Kane. They weren't talking, they weren't touching, they weren't making eye contact, and Kane once again seemed very distressed and out of it. By 9 p.m. Sunday, June 6, the Multnomah County Sheriff's Department had upgraded Kyron's disappearance

to a missing and endangered child case, but they were still not calling it a kidnapping. Sheriff Statton said, quote, we have developed a lot of information, which has to be processed thoroughly, and I am not in a position to divulge any specifics of our investigative plan at this time, end quote. On Sunday, police conducted

interviews with anyone, student, staff, or parent who'd been at the school that Friday that Kyron went missing. They began these interviews around 9.30 a.m. They continued on until 4 p.m. And by noon that day, family and friends had begun distributing flyers with Kyron's picture and information on them. He stood at 3'8", he was 50 pounds, he wore wire-rimmed glasses over his blue eyes, and he had brown hair. Over the next few days, law enforcement continued to search, scouring the area around the school, scouring the area of Chiron's neighborhood, with deputies jotting down license plate numbers of vehicles passing along Northwest Skyline Boulevard. They were knocking on doors, showing Chiron's pictures. They were everywhere.

On Wednesday, June 9th, Beth Ann Steele, a spokesperson for the FBI, read out loud a statement from Chiron's family who had not publicly spoken by this point, although that would soon change. The statement read, quote, Chiron's family would like to thank people for support and interest in finding their son. The outpouring of support and continued effort strengthens their hope. We need for folks to continue to assist us in our goals. Please search your properties, cars, outbuildings, sheds, etc. End quote. Soon, this family that wanted to stay together, though, would become very fractured, most of them turning against Terry. I didn't see that coming. Suave Island and continued throughout the weekend until noon on Sunday, June 13th, when the sheriff's department announced that the case had shifted to that of a criminal

investigation. And just keep in mind, when they started searching on Suave Island, we didn't know that Terry's phone had pinged there. They didn't say why. They were like, oh, we have good information to have us searching here, but they didn't say like Terry's phone had pinged there. So we just kind of figured like, oh, something about their investigation that they discovered brought them to Suave Island, which is completely weird because it's like a random place that Chiron would be. And then when they started searching Suave Island, everybody was like, so wait, we're like just the whole he wandered off on his own option is completely off the table because if he did, he wouldn't be there. So this became more of like everybody was

kind of paying attention to what was going on. And that's when everything really seemed to hit the fan when it shifted to a criminal investigation. And the dirty laundry of those involved in this case would be aired out for the world to see, judge, and then figure out where each piece of the puzzle fit. And that is where we'll pick up next week. What do you think? Yeah, I think I'm probably pointing out the obvious here, but police at this point have honed in on Terry, right? Looking this up, we were just talking about it two seconds ago before we cut to this clip here, but Suave Island's 26 minutes away from Skyline Elementary. So to your point, you're talking about a young child

who was at the school, may have wandered off, right? And all of a sudden now authorities have shifted their search to an island almost 30 minutes away. So they're not just doing that on a whim because if you think about that as far as a radius, a diameter of, you know, if you were to draw a circle around Skyline Elementary, they're not checking all the other areas in that diameter. They're only checking Suave. So they obviously have something that's drawn them to that. And now we know in hindsight that they had pings from Terry's phone on that day. So there's clearly something here based on what we do know that authorities feel Terry was involved or if not solely responsible for Kyron's disappearance and potential death here. We don't know. It's interesting that we're here because obviously authorities at this point in our telling of this story believe Terry's

responsible and I get that. But for some reason, they haven't pressed charges against her. And it could be for a multitude of reasons. They still, as we speak right now, if I was a fly on the wall, may believe that it's Terry. But I always, whenever I look at cases like this, and I'm coming in after the fact, I always try to look outside the box as to what seems to be the obvious. Because clearly they got to a point in this investigation where you have to assume that all the professionals involved from the local to the state, to the federal level, know what they're doing and have all have access to all of the evidence. And based on that, and based on their professional backgrounds, I've come to

the conclusion. I don't think we're going out on a limb here, that somehow Terry's involved. We know that her pings came out. We know that she, from what we know, she's the only person who was over at Suave Island at that time. And they basically moved their entire search over there. So there's a reason for that. And for me, I always like to try to look at the less likely scenario coming in as an outside entity, someone who's looking at it, because if you're to assume that the initial investigators did their job and they haven't made an arrest yet, it could be just a simple explanation of they just don't have enough, or they feel like they could get more. And so they're waiting, or it could be the unlikely

scenario, the scenario that's not being explored as heavily, because as you mentioned earlier, and I don't think you believe this, but if they got tunnel vision and focused on one specific person and maybe someone slipped through the cracks, that could also be the scenario, however unlikely it may be. If you had a crystal ball and you could see into all these unsolved cases, I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that some of these cases haven't been solved because investigators got tunnel vision and didn't focus on the person was over here out of their peripherals and they got by on it because of it. So I think it's our responsibility as a

community to obviously acknowledge the obvious, which is what we have here tonight, what you're talking about, but also to consider the outside less likely possibilities, because maybe that's why we are where we are. But as we stand right now, and I know we have multiple parts to go on this, for me, it's probably a situation where authorities are hoping that Kyron is found, whether that's alive or dead. I think they're looking for him to be recovered. Uh, and I, and, and, and the hope is that there will be some forensic evidence within that, that will link to Terry or whoever else they're looking at right now. But I feel like they're just, they're just holding onto that. And they really want to, like I've said, in other cases, you only get one shot at it. And if you,

if you pull the trigger too soon, you could miss. And if you miss, you miss forever. It's not like you get to fire again. So it's a really big risk to roll the dice on an entire case because you're impatient. Hey, do you know if you bring something to the grand jury and then the grand jury is like, nah, we don't have enough to go forward. It's not like a normal trial where it's like double jeopardy and you can't prosecute again. If you get more evidence, you can reconvene a grand jury. Am I right? So my understanding of it is when you go to a grand jury and you present the evidence that you have, if it comes back, no true bill, which basically says the grand jury doesn't believe there's enough to indict. You can go back, but you have to present new evidence. They won't hear it

based on what you have. You can't take another shot at it by just tweaking one or two things. It would have to be an exponentially major development in the case where you could say, okay, listen, yeah, we had this, it was circumstantial, but now we have video surveillance showing this person committing the crime or a confession or whatever you may have. Then in that case, maybe, because it's not the same, I don't think, as being acquitted in a trial. I recently had a case where we presented it to a grand jury or the police department handling this case did, and they came back, no true bill. And I know that the attorney said to me that she basically said, oh, that's it. It's over. And I felt like maybe that's because

they couldn't try, couldn't go to the grand jury again, but I don't believe that's the case. It doesn't hold the same weight as it would as an, with an acquittal at a full trial. So if you went to a second grand jury, you could still, because it's going to be different people convened in the, in the jury, you can still present the evidence you presented during the first grand jury, but you would have to have something else substantial that is basically like a huge development to add to it. You'd obviously have to tell them all the other stuff you have. A hundred percent. Because think about it, right? Let's say that I was the detective or I'm the prosecuting attorney and I think you're responsible for a crime. So I get a grand jury convened. I believe there's 12 of them, right? They come in there. I present the evidence and that particular jury says, nope, no true bill, right? Well,

I don't like the outcome of that one. So I repackage the existing evidence I already had. I bring it to grand jury again with a different jury and I just present the same evidence in the hopes that this jury feels differently, right? You can't keep doing that over and over. So if there's any attorneys in the comments, by all means, this is where you'd like to have the prosecutors on speed dial, right? But please enlighten us. But that's my understanding of it. I've never had a situation and I haven't done a ton of them where we presented something to a grand jury and we ever had enough to go back and do it again. Once we went there, there was a homicide case involving the taxi driver that we had where we presented it on one person and it was a true bill. But we were really hanging our hat on that because if it came back no true bill, that was basically it for us because we knew the evidence that we had was all that we were going to get.

So we knew there was going to be another break in the case. So what I will say is I think it's very telling and I don't know what standard, but I think it's telling that this grand jury was convened just about two months after Kyron went missing, which to me seems like the police and the prosecution at that point was like, we think we know what's up here and we know what happened. And we have what we think to be

a huge amount of circumstantial evidence and we're ready to take this to the grand jury just two months later. They already kind of thought they knew what had gone down. I think that's very telling. And I'm honestly surprised that the grand jury said nah. Yeah. I mean, we probably don't even know what the grand jury said.

The grand jury maybe could have voted to indict. We just won't know because that's usually sealed. But we just won't know. And the prosecution could have said, okay, well, that's great. Because sometimes prosecution will use a grand jury to test a case. They'll just use it to test it to see how it will perform in front of a jury. And the prosecution could have been like, OK, that's cool, but we don't feel comfortable. We would like some physical evidence. So let's like hopefully wait until we get that. That could clear that, I mean, it's clear they think it's Terry. And that's more than likely based on what we know. Based on what we know, there's nobody else that's been on the radar. And I mean, what's so indicative of that is the fact that they went to an area that her cell phone pinged. How did that information get out, if you don't mind me asking? That seems like a really critical piece of evidence that wouldn't be released. I don't think that was released intentionally. I feel like someone dropped the ball there. You don't think it was released intentionally? I mean, if I was a detective, I'd be pissed if that got out. Would you? Yeah. If it was my case, I wouldn't want her knowing what I know. Or would you maybe hope that like someone on Suave Island would be like, oh,

I did see a white truck. I saw Terry driving a a white truck at that point Yeah, I guess or I would just go over there myself and do you know go door to door or go, you know car you know trailer to trailer whatever's over there because I would try to get her locked in and again, they probably did all this but I would really try to pin her down to a Statement where she doesn't put herself anywhere near there so I can just prove her credibility shot. I would use that to show a jury potentially down the road that she's a, she's a liar. And there would be no reason for her to lie about that if she didn't do anything wrong. So I would have that in my back pocket. I would play ignorant. I would make it seem like I believe her wholeheartedly that she went to the dry cleaner and then she went to the, you know, whatever she, the whole order in which she did

it. And I would say, yeah, you never went anywhere else. We're good with that. You're how confident are you? I would really give her the, give her the rope to let her tie herself up. And then after I have a sworn statement from her sign sealed, delivered, I drop a bomb on her, make sure it's a video recording to, to catch, to catch her actual natural reaction. When you tell her, Hey, by the way, I know you're lying. And just see what the reaction is and how she backfired. I probably said that during the polygraph. They probably did that. I mean, based on who was involved with this,

this got all the way up to the federal level. They brought some top dogs in. Let's be honest. They had some top dogs on this one. And that's what, you know, I'm playing devil. I'm not even playing devil's advocate, I would say, but I'm trying to stay. Listen, I've been working with you for a long time. It takes me about 10 minutes to figure out what you think at this point. And you, as a

storyteller, it's, it's very hard not to have that influence your storytelling. So I'm trying to like say, okay, let me think. So what you're saying is I'm very persuasive. Manipulative is the word I would use, but you know, you know, go with you. I kind of think that's the same thing, but. Something that you would. That's what manipulators think. But, you know, I'm trying to stay on the path and say, okay, if I was working this case, you can't automatically go to the obvious. What other scenarios do we have? I understand that there are very intelligent people who have worked this case and have access to all of the evidence and have come to this conclusion for a reason.

It's not just because she wasn't consistent in her statement as far as walking up the stairs or not. There's a lot more than that. sure that they've come to that conclusion based on context clues, such as them putting a wire on her husband, putting a tracker on the truck, convening a grand jury. And you can't just convene a grand jury to prosecute a phantom. You have to have somebody in mind. You have to have somebody who's like on the docket. So those things tell us. A lot. A lot.

But they have never, the police have never come out and named Terry as a suspect. Yeah. You know what? This will be my final word for the night. It's amazing what you've told us about what has been released, right? As I said before, and I still believe this, even though that you've told us a lot of detailed information, I can promise you there's probably even more incriminating evidence against her that we don't know about, that they haven't released, that they're holding on as a potential form of guilt knowledge. So that's what's really scary about this case is that what has leaked publicly or what has been said publicly by the authorities involved is not the whole case, right? They're not showing you their whole hand. They're only showing you what they want you to know about. Or what accidentally leaked because some of the grand jury stuff did leak, which we're going to get into next. There you go.

We're going to get into next time. And it's super interesting because there's this friend. Dude, there's this friend of Terry's. She's an organic gardener. And she just bounced from her job that day for a good 90 minutes. like no one knew where she was at. And then it turns out she bought Terry like some burner phone so they could communicate after Chiron went missing. And this woman came onto the grand jury and had to testify. And we got a little like indication of what happened there. So yeah, lots of interesting stuff. I'm sure there's a lot more. Like I said, Kane, is his name Kane? Yeahane yeah kane files for divorce you know once he finds

out she tried to hire a hitman to have him killed hire a hitman okay so there's like it doesn't stop and and we're gonna hire a hitman after or before this all happened so she tried to hire a hitman to kill kane allegedly according to the the hitman, to kill Cain five months, I believe, before Chiron went missing. And I think the day before Chiron went missing, allegedly and reportedly, she told one of her friends that she was going to leave. Interesting.

I would love to hear the authorities on this case, what the motive would have been. And maybe we'll get into that before we end this series. It's the same thing, though, as like Gannon Stout, what was the motive for Letitia to kill? What's the incentive? Her, her young stepson. Yeah. Like was it out of anger? Cause with, with this, with Letitia, it may have been out of anger cause they're home and like, maybe you just snap. But with this, it's like you brought his ass to school that morning. You had some forethought here.

Like you, this is premeditated. Yeah. There was a plan in place if that's in fact what happened. So that's what's interesting. What would be the incentive? Money? Did she feel some separation? To get back at him maybe.

Maybe she found out he was cheating. You know, something like that. And she's like, well, I'm going to, because she's, you know, just in my opinion, allegedly, she ain't right. Nobody picked up on that during this episode. Nobody. Well, you would just wait until you actually hear about her. Okay. She ain't right.

So I think that sometimes people who are like very twisted will be like, okay, you hurt me. So how can I hurt you? And I'm going to take away the thing that is most important to you, like this boy who's carrying on your name, like your only son, right? And what we come to find out is that Cain's family, dude, Cain's family's messed up too. Okay, wait till I tell you about his brother, Christian. They all got Cain names. Did you notice? They all got k names the family unit for kane's family the horman family is

like kind of messed up and twisted but also it seems like very like this is very important to like carry on this name this is very important to carry on this name so i know another family that has all k's but we won't go there are you talking about the kardashians i mean do we know any other families that have all k's like that i I don't know. I can tell you this. I understand why people are fascinated by this case. Maybe she looked at it like ending

the Horman family line, like the male lineage. I mean, like, she's not right, dude. Any way you cut this pie, it comes out bananas. No, I'm looking forward to the next episode.

I can definitely see why people are so fascinated by this case. It's one of those ones where you just feel like it should be so simple to solve. I think those are the ones that bother people the most, where it's like, it's just, it's right there. We're talking about a two minute window that has the answers to all of your questions, right? In that two minutes. You mean when he's walking into the classroom or not?

That's it. Or walking up the stairs, if that's what he did. But you heard me say that there was witnesses, including his bus driver, that saw him in the parking lot leaving with her. With him, yeah. Yeah, and then that might be your answer, is the answer, he never went up those stairs.

He never, or they went up the stairs together and walked right out the door. Yeah, well, they could have walked out that back door, walked on that little gravel path there that we've seen in the video. So a lot of, a lot of scenarios. And she's volunteered. She's volunteered at the school. So maybe they have cameras some places. I don't know if they do, but maybe they got cameras some places. She knows where those cameras are or she knows there are no cameras. So she can say whatever the hell she wants. And there's no one to, you know, like go against that. The crazy part is, is that if this is how it went down, then this little Kiara was there.

Is that her name? Kiara? Kiara. Was there the entire time. Now she's not going to remember anything. She was an infant. Now listen though. So Kyron's mother, Desiree, when they showed up that night, she said that Kiara, the 18

month old, seemed super like almost pissed at her mother, Terry. Desiree said Kiara didn't want to be held by Terry. She only wanted to be held by her father or Desiree herself or even Tony, Desiree's husband. But Kiara was very like not wanting to be near Terry. So yes, she's only 18 months, not old enough to speak, but old enough to maybe see something that made her distrust her mother.

Like, I saw you hurt my brother. I saw you hurt somebody that I love. I saw you hurt somebody that you're supposed to love. And now I don't know how I feel about you. A child's instincts, kind of like, is this person safe for me to be around? You went deep there. You went deep. Any final words from you?

That's it. Okay, guys, we appreciate you being here. Stay tuned for next week. Obviously, you're going to be part two. I'm assuming there's gonna be multiple parts of this one. So it's a big case. You've seen correctly, sir. Sherlock Holmes.

Big case. A lot of people have a lot of opinions about this. So we're going to be back next week. Make sure you like, comment, subscribe. If you're listening on audio, rate the podcast. We really do appreciate it, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify. We will see you guys next week.

Oh, and Terry, if you're watching on YouTube, hit us up in the comments. Say, hey, girl, because I know you probably are. You would love that. You would love that. Everyone stay safe out there. Have a good night.