Crime Weekly - S3 Ep137: Kyron Horman: The Housewife and the Hitman (Part 2)

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

On the morning of June 4th, 2010, seven year old Kyron Horman was brought to his elementary school by his stepmother so that he could show her his science fair project. Skyline Elementary School in Portland, Oregon was having a science fair that day, and although the school would normally open at 8:35 AM, that morning the doors were unlocked at 8AM, to give the students a chance to tour the fair with their families. At around 8:45 AM, Kyron’s stepmother Terri Moulton Horman took a photograph of Kyron standing in front of his project, a detailed diorama of the red-eyed tree frog. He beamed proudly at the camera through his wire rimmed glasses, and then, according to Terri, she walked him to his classroom and watched him enter. But when attendance was taken that day, Kyron Horman was not present, and he would never be seen again. His mother Desiree Young would later say quote, “it’s like a portal opened up in the school and Kyron just vanished into it” end quote. The search for Kyron has been the largest criminal investigation in Portland history, but to this day there has been no sign of what happened to him, where he went, or who he was with. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. HelloFresh Go to HelloFresh.com/50crimeweekly and use code 50crimeweekly for 50% off plus free shipping! 2. ALO Moves For a limited time, Alo Moves is offering my listeners, 30 days free plus 20% off an annual membership. But you can only get it by going to ALOMOVES.com and use code CRIMEWEEKLY20 in all caps. 3. Prose Take your FREE in-depth hair consultation and get 15% off your first order today! Go to Prose.com/crimeweekly. 4. IQBAR Now get twenty percent off all IQBAR products, plus get FREE shipping. To get your 20%, just text WEEKLY to 64000. 5. PDS Debt PDS DEBT is offering free debt analysis to our listeners just for completing the quick and easy debt assessment at www.PDSDebt.com/crime. That’s P-D-S-D-E-B-T.com/crime

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Selection varies by location. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. Today, we are diving into part two of Kyron Horman. And I don't know, do you want to say anything before we start? Because I think it's going to be a longer episode. So if you want to just dive in, we can dive in. Let's just dive right into it. It's already 11 o'clock. We'll

get right to it. Because I feel like just like last episode, we're going to have a lot of back and forth. There's a really interesting case and I can totally understand why everyone's so fascinated by this case. Absolutely. And I mean, it's one of those cases where it's like it just gets like more and more in depth. And every layer that peels back, there's something other, you know, something crazy to find. So we will dive right in. The search for Kyron Horman started with hope, obviously. He was a small child who had been inside his own elementary school when he'd gone missing. Surely he would quickly be found either hiding out somewhere in the school or on or near the school grounds, but he could not have gotten far. Every square inch of Skyline Elementary

School in Portland, Oregon was searched bottom to top. A two-mile radius around the school was scoured using searchers on foot, on horseback, and in helicopters. Scent dogs were brought in to search the two-mile route between the school and the home that Kyron shared with his father, stepmother, and half-sister. Every person who had been at the school on the day of the science fair was questioned, and 22 state, local, and federal agencies began to follow up on more than 1,200 tips received. While all of this was happening,

the authorities and Kyron's biological parents, Kane Horman and Desiree Young, struggled to piece together Kyron's last known movements based on the changing stories of his stepmother, Terry, who had also been the last person to see Kyron alive. Her depiction of what happened is that the last time she saw him, she was down by the main office and he was here outside his classroom. I think he was coming this way down the hall and she was turning and going the other way. I don't know if it was down the stairs out or out the side door i can't remember which version of the story it was at the time which changed a few times so it was yeah going somewhere that way okay but her story changed a few times yeah all right interesting video because now we're getting to see the inside of the school

by the way which is something we were like speculating on last episode where we're like, oh, was the door at the end of the hall? Was it more to the side? And remember I said she might be able to see the door frame and she might be able to see him open the door, but she wouldn't be able to see him actually inside the classroom. If we're to believe her story, even if she's at the other end, there's no way he could easily have opened the door and then turned back around. Again, if we're to believe Terry, which even in that clip, you hear that the stories weren't consistent. She was constantly changing. So you can't put a lot of water in that bucket. This is Kane Harmon that you hear talking.

Yeah. So he clearly is questioning it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is a news reporter and he's telling her this. So clearly he doesn't believe Terry. On Friday, June 10th, seven days after seven-year-old Kyron Horman vanished, the search for him expanded far outside the area of Skyline Elementary School to a place called Suave Island. 26,000 acres of marsh, farms, and wildlife areas where visitors to the island outnumber residents 1,000 to 1.

At 1 p.m. that day during a press conference, Kyron's family members appeared for the first time publicly. Thank you. As you all know, this has been a very, very difficult time for the family of Kyron. And remember, this is the one-week anniversary, which is very sensitive to us. Here with me today is Kane Harmon, Terry Harmon, Tony Young, and Desiree Young. Hello, my name is Tony Young, and I'm Kyron's stepfather. The family has asked me to speak on their behalf today. I would just like to say, Kyron, we miss you, we love you, and we need you home right now. We're doing everything we can to work with law enforcement and the search and the

rescue crews to make sure that you can get back to us as soon as possible. We want to say how much we appreciate the outpouring of love and support, prayer and thoughts as we wait for you. Your school friends and their families, the teachers, the staff at your school, and the community as a whole have shown how much impact one little boy's smile can have on a community. You mean everything to us, and until you come home, this family is not complete. Please, Kyron, keep up the hope. We believe in you, and we know you will be back with us soon. Really interesting video, right?

Yeah, you're watching the video. You need to see it. Yeah, if you're listening on audio, if you have two minutes, go over to the YouTube version of this and check it out because you have to describe it for you if you don't want to do that. You have Terry kind of hugging Desiree during this press conference. She's really hanging on to her.

She's really hanging on. And I want to say like, yeah, you could see like a little bit of like Desiree's not embracing her, right? Like she's got her arms by her side. She's just very upset. But I will say at this point, it's so early in the investigation, there may be some resentment on Desiree's behalf, like where she's looking at it, like you were the last one with my son. But I don't know if at this

point, Kane or Desiree are under the impression that Terry may have taken Kyron. I don't think that they would be standing next to her if they were already starting to feel that way. I don't know. I mean, putting words in their mouths, but I felt like at this point, only a week out, there might've been some thoughts, but nothing definitive to make them think, oh, she did this. So Desiree claims from the get, she suspected Terry knew more than she was saying.

And we do know, I think I touched on it last episode, that very early on, even before this press conference, the police had put a wire on Kane and put a tracking device on his truck in case she took it. Terry, I mean, in case Terry took it. And they were hoping to kind of catch Terry saying something on this wire, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that Desiree and Kane, knowing that there was some suspicion on law enforcement's part, plus maybe like some instincts that they had, like how does this kid go missing in his school? You know, like that doesn't happen. That's not common. I think that probably there was some distrust already building.

Distrust that maybe to what you just said, the police are already involved at this point. They might've been instructed to, Hey, don't tip Terry off. Don't let her know that you're suspecting her. I know it's hard, but you got to play the game right now because if she knows where Kyron is, we don't want her to get skeptical of your suspicions and then do something to Kyron. So this could be a game that's going on right here, which makes that clip even that much more interesting. Yeah. So you can see, and I'll sort of describe it for you, for those who are listening to audio, to start off at first, Desiree and Tony Young are standing side by side with Kane and Terry Horman. They're showing solidarity and they're concerned for Kyron. And then Tony Young, who's Desiree's husband, he goes up and starts talking. And then

Terry immediately closes the gap between herself and Desiree where Toni was before, puts her arm around Desiree. At times, she even reaches her other arm over and she's like stroking Desiree's arm in, I guess, a supposed show of support and concern. But in response, I do believe that Desiree's body language was very stiff. And she said later, quote, the thing that was weird is that Terry would even touch me at all. At that point, we had never even hugged ever. It was the most bizarre experience. In all our time as co-parents, I never hid my true feelings from her, end quote. And her true feelings being like, Desiree did not like Terry, right?

And we're going to talk a little bit more about why Desiree didn't like Terry. And I completely agree. You can be a normal person and co-parent with someone you don't like, but you're not going to be fake and hug each other and pretend to be best friends. Desiree never pretended to be that with Terry, but all of a sudden, Terry was pretending to be that with Desiree. And Desiree also said that even though it looked as if Terry was upset and crying during the press conference, it was all an act. Quote, she was pretending to sniffle through her nose to sound like she was crying, but I never saw her cry. Not once in the four weeks we were around each other after Kyron went missing.

End quote. I think that maybe Terry was making sounds to make it sound like she was crying. But in my opinion, during this press conference, and you can see in this clip, she's clearly like scrunching up her face and trying to look sad, but she's not trying that hard. Or she's just not good at it because there were no real tears. And really, it didn't even look like that she was that upset. It just kind of looked like she was uncomfortable at points, kind of like a face you would make if you weren't comfortable. But yeah. Well, I want to say real quick, and maybe I'm overanalyzing it, but Shannon, throw this screen grab up here for a second or this little clip, but around the one minute and

six second mark, I want you to really zoom in on Terry. And to Desiree's point, she's blinking her eyes really fast, but for a minute there while she's blinking her eyes really fast. Oh, she's shining. But for a minute there, while she's got her head, I'm actually looking at it as I'm talking to you guys. She's got her head on Desiree's shoulder. So awkward. But she's looking out of the side of her eye, like at the crowd. Like who's making eye contact with me? Yes.

And so it's very interesting because then after a couple seconds, right around 108, she looks looks down, she looks down at Desiree's chest and then she's kind of like embracing her more and embracing her harder. But there's a brief second there. Like I said, we'll put it up for the YouTube people. Kind of looks out at the crowd. Like, are they watching me? Oh, yep. They are.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Got to put my head down. Got to put my head down. Now I'm not full Terry train yet. I'm just saying what my eyes are seeing. That's all.

Take that for what, take that for what you want. But yeah. Yeah. I'm full Terry train yet. I'm just saying what my eyes are seeing. That's all. Take that for what you want. But yeah. Yeah, I'm full Terry train. Yeah, I think everybody knows that. Well, that's good. That's what makes us special, right? Because we don't try to hide how we feel. Yeah, you're not trying to hide it at all.

But I mean, come on, man. It's clearly all an act. This is the most awkward thing. And for me personally, I don't even really like to be touched by people I like know and love. Unless I'm meeting you guys out and then you guys know I give great hugs. But it's like pretty momentary. Especially after a couple of drinks. Oh, yeah.

After a couple of drinks, I'm going to hug you all day. I'm pulling you hug you all day. However, in this moment, when you're standing up there in front of all of these people, your son's missing. This is a moment where I would completely shut down and like close off. I don't want to be touched. I don't want to be looked at. I don't want to be talked to. I'm trying to like process my feelings. I'm trying to hold it together. And for somebody that I don't even like to like come and start like stroking my arm and like putting her head on my shoulder, it would have taken every ounce of patience and restraint I had in me to not knock that bitch out. Like you were the last person to see my son. I don't believe what you're saying.

And now you're all touching me, putting your head on my shoulder like we're on a date, you know, and we're like sitting on lover's lane, bitch. Like I would have knocked her ass right off of me. Like I at least would have like elbowed her a little bit. You know, I wouldn't have been able to hold it in. So I have to give Desiree a lot of credit for that because she did show a lot of restraint. I would have really lost. I would have lost it. But Desiree's husband, Tony, was also watching Terry's behavior during the press conference, and he felt that Terry had been watching the other parents,

himself and Desiree and Kane, almost as if she was trying to mimic their reactions and behavior, you know, like a psychopath. And Tony said, quote, she acted very strange. She behaved like a suspect and talked like a suspect, end quote. And remember, Tony is law enforcement. By Sunday, June 13th, the search for Kyron had been reclassified as a criminal investigation, although local law enforcement would not reveal their reasons for this decision. With Multnomah County Sheriff's Captain Monte Reiser simply saying, quote, As of today, the search and rescue crews will have completed the mission we set out for them. End quote. Sheriff Dan Statton announced that his department was offering a $25,000 reward for information leading to Kyron, and he also said

that local search teams were going to continue to check the area around Skyview Elementary School, but the statewide search teams would be returning home. Law enforcement stressed that although search efforts were being scaled back, the investigation was still active and ongoing and, quote, our commitment and resources are unwavering, end quote. And we'll find out. Maybe their commitment was unwavering, but their resources never are. It seemed even then the police knew far more than they were saying because Captain Jason Gates of the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office reported that it was no longer a search and rescue mission, but he and other members of law enforcement did not feel that parents in the area should take extra precautions with their children. He stated that since the early days of the investigation, they believed that Kyron's disappearance was an isolated incident. And during a second press conference, Captain Monte Reiser said that authorities would be able to charge a suspect without finding Kyron. So I think that's very

telling always. I think we saw it with the Idaho murders, too, when the police were like, yeah, we don't think anyone has to worry. Like there's not some random psychopath out there killing college students like we kind of know what's going on when the police say, hey, don't worry about your kids getting abducted. It's because they kind of know what happened or else they wouldn't feel comfortable saying that. Am I right? Yep, completely agree. And something I always say is that it's not in these press conferences. And I know because I've been part of them.

It's not necessarily what they're saying. It's what they're not saying. And the way they're saying the certain things that they are saying, they're telling you a full story without giving it away. And so I agree with your assessment on it. They clearly felt like this was an isolated incident specific to Kyron. And that's why they felt comfortable in saying, listen, we don't think there's someone out there who's snatching up kids. We feel like Kyron was the target of this. And this was something where we've already potentially identified the person responsible. We just don't have enough to arrest them yet. So everyone can sleep good at night.

But we can't say that yet for litigious reasons. But that's how we feel. So you read between the lines, America. Yeah, I mean, I agree. And I think that if it was some unknown person or like a possible serial abductor, and I mean, even if it's not if you don't know it's a serial abductor and you just know that somebody took Kyron, but it's like a stranger, you don't know if that person could be coming back for another kid. Like you wouldn't know that. So you still wouldn't say, oh, don't worry. It's only when you know that Kyron was the target, which is usually a personal thing and has nothing to do with some random stranger that you would say that. So this is very early on in the investigation. And just to go both sides here, okay? This could be a good thing or a bad thing because we all can admit at this point, nobody's been arrested yet.

So even though we've talked a lot about Terry and it don't look good for her, I'm not going to sit here and play stupid. Okay. If you, if it doesn't look good for her, she's a prime, we'll just say person of interest at this point. But here's where you could say the case might've went wrong because let's just say it's a 99% chance that Terry's involved and she did it. Okay. But there's still that 1% that it was someone else in that school. If this early in the investigation, police have already put all their eggs in the basket of Terry and they're wrong and we're wrong, then that means the person responsible is

sitting there laughing at them. And it's very possible that the reason there hasn't been an arrest because they just don't have enough, but it's also possible that the reason they haven't made an arrest is because just don't have enough, but it's also possible that the reason they haven't made an arrest is because they've been focusing on the wrong person. And that's where I'm not saying I believe that, but I'm pointing it out for everyone because if we learned down the road that that was the truth, that that was the case, it wouldn't be the first time it happened. So do I think that's the case here? Probably not. But it is important to note that when we're looking at this from an outside

perspective and we all want the same thing, which is to solve this case, we want to see justice. You have to wonder where the case went wrong. Why hasn't it been solved if it's Terry? And one of the reasonings could be that, that it's not Terry. Just wanted to put it out there to remain objective as much as we can. I'm sure that Terry and all the usernames that she's been using to be in our comment section are really going to appreciate your very unbiased view of this. I think even you, I know we joke a little bit, but I think even you would admit that when you have an investigation like this, if it's your child, although you may think it's someone specifically, right. You have in mind, I know

you've done enough cases where you'd still be like, Hey, listen, that's fine. We have that person on the board. You better rule out every other person. Not only do I want evidence against them, I want exculpatory evidence against every other mother so-and-so in that building that day. Oh, mother so-and-so? You like that? I changed it up. I like that. That was good.

I want to know every other person in that building, you vetted them, regardless of how improbable it may be. I think that they did. I mean, they talked to everybody. They did multiple interviews. They checked everybody's alibi. I'm not saying they may be. I mean, they talked to everybody. They did multiple interviews. They checked everybody's alibi. I'm not saying they didn't. I'm not saying they didn't.

And you know me. Like, I'm going to be the first person to call out law enforcement for having tunnel vision. Okay? Yep. I got you. I'm just saying when we look at the totality of this investigation, I want law enforcement to show me, A, everybody in that building has been completely ruled out with factual information that can be corroborated or proven. Then you can go to Terry and say, however, this person does not have that same information. And there's all these other

factors as far as pings and everything we're going to get into that. Now you're painting a full picture. We have multiple witnesses who saw Terry leave the school. Agreed. Agreed. And that's why I'm saying. I think that's very significant. I completely agree with you. I'm just giving full picture for the sake of objectivity.

Terry really appreciates that. I think there might be a couple people in the comments that do. Maybe not. But I think a couple people might. I'm sure they do. I'm sure they do. Okay. Yeah. It's always great to have two sides of the story. Yeah. Should we take a quick break? Should we take a quick break? Yeah, let's take a quick break. I can get my smirk. So I can get my smirk off. Okay. We'll be right back.

With Tuesday, June 16th was the final day of classes for Skyline Elementary students and the rest of Kyron's classmates faced that day without him. A father of one of these students, Ben Smith, told the media that Kyron's disappearance had shaken his 12-year-old daughter, who was Kyron's classroom reading buddy, to her core. He said, quote, she's still scared. Her whole security has been taken away from her. She said from the get-go, he didn't just walk off. He's a quiet boy. He follows the rules. He listens. He loves his family, end quote. Questions about the security at Skyline Elementary School also began to arise as the school year ended and parents contemplated having to return their precious cargo to the school building the following fall. In 1992, a 12-year-old girl had been abducted from Kellogg Middle School in Portland, and after this tragic incident, the school had beefed up its

security, making sure that all doors were locked during the day, security officers were on staff, and guests needed to sign in and be issued a visitor's badge before being allowed inside school buildings, which I feel like is bare minimum. OK, what the hell? Like, oh, visitors should have to sign in so we know who's in the building with children during the day when the children outnumber the adults like 50 to one. We should definitely have some awareness of who the hell is in this building. It's like, oh, we beefed up security guys by doing the bare minimum. But anyways, security cameras were also installed in some schools and they also began using an automated universal communication system that would notify parents when their child was not present at the time that attendance was taken. And we're probably all familiar with this if you have kids, because I think that is pretty standard now. If I don't send one of my

kids to school, like they have a doctor's appointment or they're sick, I always get a call at the same time in the morning after attendance is taken. And it's basically like, your child is absent today. So you know right away that your kid's not at school. And if you didn't keep them out of school, then you have a very quick notification of that. And then you can get right on finding them hopefully instead of waiting until they just don't get off the bus eight hours later to start looking for them. There was talk about Skyline Elementary

implementing some, if not all of these precautions, but as always, the decision would come down to available resources. However, I do know that I believe it was the following year Skyline Elementary did implement that automated calling system and they did install security cameras, which you can see in some of the clips we showed last episode of when that woman was walking you through the school. People are in

the comments were saying, oh, I see a security camera. Yes, that was this footage was taken over a decade afterwards. So by then they did have security cameras installed, but at the time of Chiron's disappearance, they did not. On Monday, June 14th, the sheriff's office sent divers back to Suave Island, where they were seen wading through waist-deep water off the banks of the Multnomah Channel, north of the Suave Island Bridge. The following day, that same dive teen was seen searching a pond on a property near the Horman home, and police released a photo of a pair of glasses, like the ones that Kyron was last seen wearing, along with a picture of Kyron that Terry had taken of him at the science fair, but this picture had been photoshopped to show what Kyron would look like if he wasn't wearing glasses.

30 billboards with Kyron's picture and information on them, they went up. These billboards were donated by Clear Channel. But all of this was happening the same week that everything seemed to shift. And when law enforcement released a new flyer on Friday, June 18th, two weeks after Kyron's disappearance, the media began to report that the police were focusing on Kyron's stepmother, Terry Horman. The flyer contained not only pictures of Kyron, but pictures of Terry and a pickup truck similar to the one she'd been driving on June 4th, which was Kane's pickup truck,

if you remember his Ford F-250. The flyer also included a questionnaire, and it said, quote, these forms are directed to anyone, teachers, other school employees, delivery persons, parents, et cetera, who was at Skyline School, either the buildings or grounds, at any time between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. on June 4, 2010.

Everyone who was at Skyline School on June 4, 2010, during the above times noted, is being asked to fill out the form and return it. Please fill out the form and return it, even if you've already been interviewed by law enforcement." And the questions being asked were basically, at any time did you see Kyron Horman? At any time did you see Terry Horman? At any time did you see a white Ford F-250 at or near the school? It had also been leaked to the papers that Terry's cell phone had pinged on Suave Island on June 4th, the day Kyron had vanished. Later, Desiree Young would confirm this information in the book Boy Missing, where author Rebecca Morris writes, quote, According to detectives, at 11 a.m. on June 4th, Terry's cell phone pinged off a tower near an island where two channels of the Willamette River meet the Columbia River and flow 100 miles to the Pacific Ocean. The island and its many tributaries are not near the two Fred Meyer stores or the gym

where Terry stopped. Terry told police the ping was because of the route she took while trying to quiet Kayla. The Multnomah County Sheriff's Office narrowed the ping within a mile of the cell phone tower. To the west were the roads off Highway 30 and Deep Woods, as well as roads near Kane's house and the school. To the east were Suave Island and thousands of acres of marsh and waterways, end quote. So I do remember, I think it was last episode, we were trying to figure out when did that ping happen, and I said I didn't know for sure,

but I did find it out through this research this past week that it was 11 a.m. when her phone pinged near Suave Island. Extremely incriminating. Just call it what it is. Extremely incriminating. so extremely incriminating just call it what it is extremely incriminating extremely incriminating coupled with you could argue that that's even more incriminating than the witness testimony that sees her leaving with with kyron and the reason i say that i mean both are incriminating when put together right both are incriminating when put

together but just that but the the data is not subjective to human error, right? Like it is what it is. And I know we can argue about GPS coordinates. I know we could get there. We all remember the Adnan Syed case. Yeah, right. I mean, but I am a firm believer in that they're pretty accurate and that the cell phone themselves, the service can only reach so far. So it's got to grab onto a tower that's somewhat nearby. And I feel like the GPS coordinations or not even the GPS, just the cell phone coordinates, the pinging, because it's not

as accurate as GPS, unfortunately, is very compelling. And it doesn't make any sense that this woman would go this far out of her way to just quiet a kid. We've all done it. And most of us will just drive around the block near the house because the kid doesn't know where you're driving to. They just want to feel the motion. So to use that as an excuse, it's almost as bad or it might be as bad as Brian Koberger saying he liked driving around at night. Just that's his alibi. Alone. So it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. And like you said, you couple that with the witness testimony. And this is why police are doing what they're doing. They're not going off what Desiree feels. They're backing up their investigation with actual evidence. And unfortunately, because of that area, which is funny because isn't the same river that we talked about with DB Cooper, Columbia? It is, dude. And you know what I was just thinking? Like when we did our Crime Weekly News, which was also in the Pacific Northwest, like I think in Oregon, right? Yeah. So I feel like we haven't left the Portland area.

We got to get out of here, man. I'm lost in these rivers. But it's not good. It's not good. And then I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves, but it's one of these things where, just to bring you behind where my brain is going, because it's like, OK, if Terry did this, what is was this something where she had taken him not knowing that it was going to go this far on this occasion? Or did she know right from the jump this was all planned out and this is what she was going to do? Because how can you plan this all out and not think that someone during the day of a science fair would see you leaving with Kyron?

I don't know how you plan on justifying that. I was thinking the same thing, dude. Yeah. Listen, I don't know what her plan was. But whatever it was, I believe she planned it out in advance. I just don't think she's like a criminal. You know, like I don't think she's like a criminal, you know, like I don't think she's good at it. However, some would argue she's good enough at it because she's still walking free,

right? So, I mean, even a broken clock is right twice a day and sometimes people just luck into it. And I mean, this was 2010, so we didn't have the same kind of cell phone tracking. We didn't have like cameras on every corner at every store, you know, just like always watching you. So I don't know. Like what I'm thinking is because she changes her story. Like she didn't tell the cops that her daughter had an earache and she had to drive her around,

not until she was confronted with, why is your cell phone pinging over here when you were supposed to be over here? And then she didn't even think it was going to get to that point. Yeah. But then she came up with a story quick, right? Some people are good at thinking and lying on their feet. And she just happened to luck out to have a story that they couldn't verify or not verify one way or the other.

Like you can't say, oh, no, your daughter was fine and you weren't driving around with an earache. You know, you can't prove that. So this is why I agree with your premeditation theory as far as if she's involved. So there's two roads here. One, she took Kyron because she wanted to, you know, I don't know, spend the day with him or whatever. And she took the truck that morning. Hear me out. Hear me out. She takes him. He gets out of control. It's a situation where she hits him or smacks him or does something where he falls and gets hurt and he dies as a result of whatever took place. That's one option. The reason why I don't think that's a viable option is because other than the truck, there's

other things that discredit the idea that she deliberately took him out of school intentionally. The fact that she left behind his science project, she left behind his backpack, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. Those things were left in the class to give the appearance that he was still at the school when she left. Those are the little minute details that make me believe there was more going on than just this being a spontaneous accident. Yeah. And the email with like, oh, he has a doctor's appointment. And then, oh, I meant, no, he had a doctor's appointment the following week when like, no, you didn't bitch because school wasn't even going to be in session the following

week. So you're lying. Like little things that she did ahead of time. Yeah. To kind of set it up. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't, I don't think this for anybody out there who might think, oh, yeah, maybe she's involved, but this could have been an accident.

I feel like these factors would would rule that out or would highly suggest that's not the case. I very rarely think it's an accident, by the way. Of course. When something like this happens, like I very rarely think it's an accident because like accidents happen and people understand that accidents happen. Why would you get yourself dug so deep if you genuinely had no intent to do harm and you're like a normal person and like an accident happened and like, oh yeah, you know, I hit him and I shouldn't have done that. I backhanded him and he fell and hit his head. And then, you know, like that's going to be less worse for you than covering up the murder of a child and like lying to the

police and all this other stuff that you've done to dig yourself deep. A normal person who committed an accident, I feel like, would immediately call the police and be like, holy shit, I'm so sorry. I did not mean to do this. I feel terrible. Like, I cannot believe this happened. But when you start like moving bodies and hiding bodies and lying to the police and getting up at press conferences and pretending to cry. Like you're in a whole new ballpark. You're in a whole new game at this point, Terry. And I just don't think that normal people do that if it was an accident. No, I agree. Like I said, not looking

good, not looking good at all. And that's just being, I guess, somewhat intelligent and being able to listen to a story. And we're going off facts here not just speculation so as far as the pings and now i wasn't in on the interviews with those witnesses but it happened relatively quick and these individuals i'm assuming and maybe you know probably knew terry maybe knew kyron so it's something for them where this isn't just a random kid they saw on a poster they knew who these people were so they're not going to mistaken them for somebody else. And that's Terry's own damn fault because she made herself such a fixture at that school. And she's obviously got this like notable bright red hair, but she's always volunteering. She always had to be front and

center. So like the people who saw her leave with Kyron that day was one of his classmates and this classmate's two grandparents who knew Terry from volunteering at the school and Kyron's bus driver, who obviously knows Kyron and also knows Terry because he delivers him to his home and picks him up in the morning from there, right? So yeah, definitely. And when the eyewitnesses who had seen Terry leaving the school that day with Kyron came forward, it was also revealed that Terry had not parked the truck in the school parking lot. Instead, she seems to have parked on a gravel road on the far west side of the school

where the elevation of the school building and grounds would partly conceal her vehicle. Additionally, it came out that Terry's distinctive red Mustang with her vanity plates had been seen along the roadways of northwest Portland in the days before Kyron went missing, leading some to wonder if she'd been getting a lay of the land, becoming familiar with the terrain, a little premeditation with your morning coffee. Desiree and her husband, Tony Young, also reported some odd behavior from Terry continuing on through the first weeks of Kyron's disappearance. Terry had been taken in for a polygraph exam, and in the aftermath of that, she'd been very angry, later telling Tony and Desiree that police had told her they'd found Kyron's DNA in the bed of Kane's white Ford F-250. Desiree said, quote, Terry seemed unconcerned about that. She had shrugged it off. I was asking, why would Kyron's DNA be in the bed of Kane's truck? No one had any answers, end quote. And I mean, this is actually easily explainable, you know, having your child's DNA in the bed of your truck. There could be a million

reasons why. However, once again, when you have all this circumstantial evidence and you start piling it together, yes, it doesn't look great. And what I would want to know was, did the truck have one of those like covers? You have a truck, so you would know. I don't know what they're called, like bed covers? crew cab. So that back seat- What's a crew cab? Crew cab means four doors. It was four doors and it was an extended cab. Yeah. Extended cab. So you have the back seat. You can lift up those seats, put your tools back there. It's pretty big. So if you were to restrain someone or if they're no longer coherent, you could put them on the back floor of that truck bed and there'd be plenty of room for it. You wouldn't have to put them on top of the seats where they might be picked up by the camera. So that's another alternative as well if they didn't have a bed cap. I mean, I can't tell if the truck does have one, but either way, you're right.

There's tons of places, especially if a child was unconscious or not awake. You could easily put him a ton of different places in that truck and he wouldn't be seen moving around and sitting up on security cameras when she parked at those Fred Meyers. And she specifically parked as far away from the entrance as possible. So that could be another reason. So just real quick, I'm looking at a couple images. You can look them up as well. All I typed in, if you got to look up, is Kyron H horman f-250 and it shows some screenshots of this truck and it doesn't

appear that it had a cap on the back it looks like it was open see that's that's the confusing thing though because when they put out the posters with like have you seen kyron have you seen terry have you seen this truck they didn't use the exact truck they used like an image that was an image of the the similar truck that's what like an image of of the truck. If it's an elevated cap, it could make the truck look more like an SUV. If it's even just there's caps that come up like three or four inches, then there's some caps that are like level with it. Like my cap on the back of my truck rolls, like flips up. That's what I'm used to seeing. You can't tell it's even on there. Yeah. So yeah, there's a couple options, but either way, even without it, we don't need it for there to be a possibility that Kyron was in the truck at that time and you wouldn't be able to see him on camera. It would be making that up to throw people off the scent or to like just, you know, cloud the situation and just add like extraneous details to make people confused,

you know, and she could be she could be doing that. So let's go to a quick break and we'll be right back. After the first press conference, Terry was brought in for a second polygraph after being told she'd failed the first one. Terry actually walked out during the second polygraph exam, not completing it. And afterwards, people noticed how angry and offended Terry was. And she told her husband she was done cooperating with the police. She could not believe that they were focusing on her. To me, this is also a huge sign of guilt. But OK.

Terry would go in for a third polygraph exam on June 19th, and it was later reported that out of the two lie detector tests that she had completed, she'd failed both. Terry reportedly also told Desiree Young, quote, I hope you know I loved your son, end quote. And Desiree was bothered by this because one, she didn't believe Terry. And two, Terry had worded this sentimental statement in the past tense. Additionally, just a few days after Kyron went missing before Terry made her Facebook private, she posted, quote, hitting the gym tomorrow. I didn't get home until 8 p.m. tonight, end quote. And people thought, and when I say people, I mean like everyone with a brain inside their head. They thought it was very odd that Terry was concerned with keeping up her fitness routine when her stepson was literally actively missing and she would have no idea where he was or what was happening to him. is like fine, I guess. But I don't know if going to the gym and working out would be a part of your regular routine. And I don't know if you'd be posting that on Facebook, like literally zero

self-awareness at that point. I don't know. Am I like reading into this too much? I think that's incredibly weird. Just a couple of days after he's missing, you're like hitting the gym today. Yeah. Like a strong arm emoji, smiley face, a heart emoji, high five. What? Am I wrong? Am I like, am I like just, I don't think you're wrong. Do I hate this woman? Yeah, that's the problem. Like, I don't think you're wrong for saying it. And I think what you would do and what I would do may be different than someone else. Everyone copes differently. But unfortunately, we have so much else with this particular person that doesn't look well, it's hard to justify this because of everything else. But I feel like if you told me, like, for example, if Desiree had went to the gym and it was weird, but I would also defend it by saying everyone copes with trauma and stress differently. And this was her way of maybe going to the gym

to just try to- No, I understand going to the gym, right? Because you have emotions. A lot of people use physical activity to cope with that. But posting about it on facebook why when you literally the last thing you posted is like printing up flyers from my missing stepson like we hope he comes home and then like a day later you're like yeah gym time gtl yeah bitches what what what i don't get it man like you go to the gym you keep your head down you get your workout out try to like get the stress out but nah this ain't it this ain't it terry no i agree the posting of it i get it we we all get it don't say it like i'm like this is not the last time you're gonna hear it so no i'm exasperated with my like distaste in her because i can't help myself i'm only we're only two-thirds and i'm not even

a third into the script so i'm just like okay but no i mean for me it's just like it is what it is this doesn't make me feel she's more guilty less guilty if anything it's so stupid it would be go against her trying to give the impression that she's upset about it like it's contradictory of being someone who's distraught over it. Zero self-awareness. Yeah. So I don't, I,

for me, it's all about what we've covered so far. This gym thing is just her being a moron. Icing on the cake of guilt. All right. So next we have a woman at Terry's gym. Cause remember Terry went to the gym that, that June 4th after Kyron, you know, she dropped Kyron off at school and she's randomly driving around to soothe her daughter, okay enough to go to the daycare at the gym.

And Terry doesn't work out that day, but she makes sure to talk to people and show them Kyron's picture that she just took. One of the women who talked to Terry that day reported to the police that Terry had a wound on her leg, a wound that she had sustained on June 4th. It was a large gash right below her knee, and Terry had claimed she'd sustained the wound after dropping a weight on her leg. But the woman would later tell the police that dropping a weight on your leg would cause a bruise, not a gash like she'd seen on Terry. And once again, this is something that is pretty obvious to anybody. Dropping a weight on your leg wouldn't cause the skin to break. And if it did, it probably would also

cause your bone to break. So there's that. While investigators were going through Terry's cell phone and through her personal correspondence, they discovered that she had hired a landscaper, but she'd kept this information secret from her husband, Kane. And police found this to be suspicious. You know, like hiring someone to work at your home seems to be like a fairly benign and normal thing to do. Why would she feel the need to keep this information from Kane? And maybe there was a reasonable explanation, but they wanted to find out what it was. The landscaper's name was Rodolfo Sanchez. And when police spoke to him, Sanchez revealed some startling information. He said he'd been hired in 2008 to work at Terry's

house, and five months before Chiron vanished, Terry had allegedly invited him to a restaurant where she had a conversation about her husband Kane with him while her young daughter Chiara was present. Terry told Rodolfo Sanchez that Kane had been abusive to her, and she asked Rodolfo Sanchez that Cain had been abusive to her, and she asked Rodolfo if he would help her kill her husband in exchange for $10,000. Now, a lot of people in the comment section, first of all, I want to mention that a lot of people were talking about my pronunciation on like Kyron and, you know, Suave Island. And I'm trying, like I'm trying. Suave Island is going to be hard for me because of how it's spelled. But what I will say is I pronounced Willamette River correctly, didn't I? Willamette, not Willamette. Okay,

like you think it would be pronounced. And do you know why? Because the Willamette Valley Pinot Noir is one of the best Pinot Noirs ever. And so I'm very familiar with that. So I've got that one down. Yeah, I've got that one down. Willamette. All right. So listen, a lot of other people said in the comments on the first video, what would her motive be? Like, and super valid question. You know, we have the same question with Letitia Stouck and Gannon Stouck, and I still really don't know for sure what Letitia Stouck's motive could be, besides the fact that she resented Gannon and she was mad at her husband, Al, for not giving her enough attention. And she somehow, I think

with Letitia, I think she acted out in anger and killed Gannon, but did not intend to. I will say, I believe that was an accident of some sort. But I might have a motive for you with Terry. Okay. So a potential motive may be revealed in court documents because it would say that Terry had been contemplating divorcing Cain for several months by the point that she tried to hire Rodolfo Sanchez to kill him. And she was aware of this policy in Oregon that stepiblings should not be separated after a divorce. So basically, if you got a divorce, when they're looking at custody, they're going to kind of look at Kane, who has Kyron, and they're going to say, well, Kyron is young. His little sister is young. We don't want to separate them. So we're going to rule in favor of that. We're going to take that in consideration when deciding custody. So is it possible that Terry, knowing she would not be married to Kane

for much longer, wanted Kyron to be out of the picture so that when she and her husband fought for custody of their daughter in court, she wouldn't lose her daughter, who at that point, the courts would want to keep with Kane and Kyron? Is it possible? Interesting. Yeah. I mean, you know me, what I'm going to say, how can I, I'm never one to be like, nope, not possible. So yeah, of course it's possible. We don't know why people, how people, how or why people justify these types of heinous actions. So in her head, if this is what she really thought, it might make sense to her. Like this could be her rationale because I'm not really seeing anything else. So yeah, I think it's a, I think it's a pretty good theory. I mean, if you look at it, like she was talking about divorce and Cain,

it was revealed that she knew of this policy. So she must've spoken to somebody or more than somebody about it. Like, oh, this is going to suck because like, he's going to be, you know, be looked at favorably by a judge when it comes to custody. So if she just really didn't want to have to worry about that and she took Kyron out of the picture specifically so that she knew when it came down to custody, she wouldn't have to worry about Kane getting full custody of their daughter. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure people in the comments way down below, if you can poke a hole in it, but I think there's some validity to it in the sense that- It's the only thing I can think of, honestly.

I mean, again, if we could read people's minds, we'd learn a lot and that might be part of it. That could absolutely be her mentality on it. Clearly, she's not dealing with a full deck if she did something. Well, let me even stop there. Clearly, she isn't dealing with a full deck if it's true that she tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband. So we already know that she's not of sound mind. So to think that she could rationalize her reasoning behind doing this because of this whole scenario that you just laid out, I don't think that's too far-fetched. Exactly. It's the only thing I can think of. And there may be something that, again, I don't know what it would be, but something in her mind that further justified it and we just don't know. The only answer might lie with her.

Yeah. And she could say after the fact, well, I had to do what I had to do because Cain was dangerous and I didn't want to leave him with my daughter. And I had to, she's going to justify it and say whatever. As long as she doesn't say he was a dark, Kyron was a dark spirit. A dark spirit. Yeah. Yeah. A level, a level four dark spirit. Right. On Saturday, June 26th, Rodolfo Sanchez and an undercover detective, both wearing wires, met? But Terry was suspicious from the get-go, most likely because of all the heat that had been on her from law enforcement, and so she didn't take the bait. You know, she's not smart, but she's not stupid. So instead, she called 911 and reported a threat. Later that day, Terry went out to meet with a lawyer that she was considering hiring,

and while she was gone, her husband, Cain, packed up his things. He packed up his daughter's things. And then he and Kiara left the house. When Terry got home from her meeting, she panicked, seeing that Cain and Kiara were gone. And then she sent an email to Cain, which read, quote, OK, I love you, but this is ridiculous. What you are doing is parental child abduction and is illegal. I need to know where my daughter is and if she is safe, end quote. I bet that Kane wanted to know where his son was and if he was safe, Terry, you asshole. But anyways, Terry gave Kane a time that he should have Kiara back that night. She was basically like, have her back by this time. And if you don't, I'm going to call the police. And when Kane and Kiara didn't

return, she called the police around 1140 p.m. And she was like, help me. My husband abducted my child. But she was told that what Kane had done was not illegal since they shared custody of their daughter. Within two days, Fox 12 reported that Kane Horman had moved out of the family home and taken his daughter with him. But when Terry was questioned by the Oregonian that afternoon, she claimed everything was good. She gave the reporters a thumbs up and she said, quote, We heard that rumor. It's just a rumor that needs to be squelched. End quote. Do you think she meant squashed? But whatever. At 5.52 p.m. that night, Kane Horman, along with Desiree and Tony Young, asked the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office to release a joint statement on their behalves, saying they were fully cooperating with the investigation.

But Terry Horman's name was significantly missing from that statement. outlets were tipped off to the information that Terry had been served not only with divorce paperwork, like a petition for dissolution of marriage, but also with a restraining order by Kane. And when this information came out, people began to dig into the past of Terry Horman. Terry Moulton Horman had been born in Grass Valley, California in March of 1970, at which point she was adopted by two elementary school teachers, 29-year-old Carol Moulton and 32-year-old Larry Moulton. The Moulton family moved to Roseburg, Oregon in 1982, and this is where Terry would grow up as an only child

who reportedly was a little bit spoiled and got whatever she wanted, including money whenever she asked for it. And it's never revealed who Terry's birth parents were, but they did say that like anytime she was asked, she would say like, oh, I come from a prominent family. Like she wouldn't say any names, but she would say she came from like an important prominent family,

like important people and stuff like that, which she would have no way of knowing that, I think, unless her parents told her that. But it seems like Terry really wants to appear to be more important and better than she actually is. During high school, Terry did well in sports like basketball. She was on the track team, where her track coach claimed she was very dedicated, as was her father, Larry. The track coach said, quote, her father was constantly working with her. He loved track.

He was a track junkie, end quote. During her senior year of high school in 1988, Terry met a man named Richard Ecker at a Fred Meyer store in Roseburg where he worked. Terry and Richard dated for a few months, but the romantic relationship soon turned into a friendship and Richard Ecker became someone that Terry would confide in. Ecker would be a part of the wedding party when Terry wed her first husband, Ron Tarver Jr., in November of 1991. Terry and Ron Tarver moved to Albany, where they ran a storage facility and eventually they purchased a Chubbies restaurant franchise with money Terry had gotten from her parents. In 1994, Terry, her husband, and her parents sued the restaurant chain, claiming the company had misrepresented the investment needed to make of infidelity, and when they got divorced in

November, Terry got full custody of their son James and moved back to her parents' house in Roseburg. Terry would go on to attend the McDonald's fast food management school, and for a while, she worked at a McDonald's in Cottage Grove. During this time, Terry and Richard Ecker reconnected and began dating again, eventually getting married in Springfield in August of 1996. Richard's parents, Chuck and Mavis Ecker, said that Terry was extremely nice and giving, but they always felt that she may have had ulterior motives and that many of the sweet and loving gestures she made were because she wanted to impress people and make people like her. Two years after they were married, Richard Ecker legally adopted Terry's son, James, but at the time, the Eckers felt their son had been pushed into it by Terry.

Richard's parents remembered that one day, they and their son were talking about buying a boat, and when Terry walked into the room and found out that her husband was in the market for a boat, she accused him of spending James's inheritance. On March 29, 1998, Terry was in an accident. She was in her car when she was hit by a drunk driver, and this accident had lasting effects on Terry. Richard Ecker said, quote, for a year she had crippling migraines. Our life basically came to a standstill, end quote. But while she was suffering from a pinched nerve near her spine, Terry earned a bachelor's degree in elementary education from Northwest Christian University, paid for by Richard Eckert's parents. And this is so sad because Richard Eckert got screwed by Terry, like big time.

He seemed like a super nice guy, someone who was always there for her. And his parents said, yeah, we paid for her education, even though Richard wanted to go to college. But anything with Terry, like she always had to come first. Whatever she wanted had to take precedence. She needed to be in control always. So because we were going to pay for Richard's education and then they had a talk and then came back and Richard was like,

oh, you're going to pay for Terry to go to school first. Terry's the one that got the college education. After graduating in 2000, Terry received her teaching license and she and Richard moved to Baverton, buying a house in February of 2001 that Terri's parents helped to finance. According to Terri's Facebook page, she had wanted to be a teacher since she'd been seven years old, but she never actually held a full-time teaching position like ever in her life.

In March of 2001, she was hired as a substitute teacher in the Hillsborough School District. In mid-June of 2002, she held teaching jobs at Eastwood-Mewberry and Lenox Elementary schools that lasted several months each. People said that Terry seemed to like kids. She was a good teacher, but she had a tendency to be strict. A former colleague said, quote, she had those kids walking down the hall in a straight line, not talking. She was really organized. She had everything laid out for days ahead. She was really in control of what she was doing.

She liked kids and she liked teaching, end quote. Or she liked being in a position of power over people who were not as big, strong or smart as she was. Just my opinion. At some point, Terry took her son James and moved out of the house she shared with her husband, filing for divorce, moving in with another teacher who was going through a divorce. Now, this teacher claimed that like for a minute, Terry was like a cool roommate. But basically, as soon as she moved in, Terry took control of the place as if it was hers and hers alone, as if no one else lived there with her, even though

it wasn't even her place and she was the one moving in. She rearranged the furniture. She brought her own furniture and she even put some of the women's bookshelves with books still stacked in the bookshelves outside in the lawn because she said she needed room for her own furniture and her own possessions. And then it rained and destroyed all the books before the woman came home. And the woman came home and saw what happened. And she confronted Terry about this whole thing. And she said Terry didn't seem apologetic. She seemed hurt. The woman said, she seemed absolutely unaware of that being a problem. The divorce between Terry and Richard Ecker would be finalized in January of 2002. Terry took custody of James. And even though

Ecker was not even James's biological father, she got him to agree to pay child support to her every month. A year later, Terry went to the court and had the child support payments bumped up from $169 a month to $550 a month. And this put a serious financial strain on Richard because it was basically taking up a large portion of his paycheck every single month. And Richard claims he went to talk to Terry in person to see if she would be open to like compromising on these monthly payments and like giving him a break or letting him pay in like installments or whatever. And she seemed open to that and she seemed like cooperative. But the following day, Ecker received a call from the police asking him to stop harassing his ex-wife and the audacity of this woman.

OK, the audacity. You convince your new husband to pay child support for a kid that isn't even, you know, biologically his. And then you like divorce him two years later and then you make him pay child support and then you up the child support. And when he comes to you and he's like, lady, I'm broken by this. You're like, oh, no problem. We'll work something out. And then you call the police and have them tell him to stop bothering you. And then Richard Eckert says literally he never saw James again because basically she was done with him. All she wanted was his money. It wasn't like they had a relationship or he was allowed to see James. he never saw james

again but he had to continue paying this ridiculous amount every month to her for james ridiculous in my opinion oh we didn't pick up on that like she's a user man i'll use her but what do you think about all this so far what do you think about terry so far're going to hate me when I say this because you're just waiting. I'm not going to hate you. I hate her. I mean, none of this, to me, shows that this could be the potential sign of a murderer. Because it takes a special person, I'm saying that sarcastically for anybody out there, to hurt a child. Like you really have to be a sick individual. And so to be fair, I've heard stories like this a lot where it could be the man or the woman that's taking advantage of the other person

because they're financially well off and they don't necessarily go on to hurt a child. This is something that's pretty common, unfortunately, when it comes to relationships and they break up. So for me, it's not like, oh, this is a red flag or signs of things to come. It's more so, yeah, she's obviously an unethical person. But I think you would agree you probably know a lot of people. I think it speaks to her character a little bit. Yeah, I agree. Absolutely speaks to her character.

Doesn't say to me like, oh, this could be a sign of what we're going to see in the future maybe somebody should have picked up on this i think we all know people no but it gets worse like this it gets worse and also i will say like to me this is a sign of somebody that uses people and when they're done with them they're completely disposable so it's not necessarily not the sign of somebody who's you know capable of like justifying their their hurtful actions in in the wake of something terrible that they do or something like i think a lot of people use people though and and just kind of like leave them out high and dry they don't necessarily kill them you've got a fucking jaded perception my goodness we see it all the time see it all the time i guess

you know but we're not talking about everyone. We're talking about Terry. Oh, I know. You've made that very apparent. Let's take a quick break and we'll keep talking about her some more. In the spring of 2002, Terry was working a seven-month substitute teacher position at Lenox Elementary School, and she'd started going to the gym and working out a lot. In June of 2002, her job at Lenox was coming to an end, and luckily, this was the same month she met Kane Horman at a restaurant.

At this time, Kane was married to Desiree Young, and she was six months pregnant with Kyron. Desiree had discovered she was pregnant in January of 2002, but she claims when she told Kane he was not happy about it, he didn't want to be a father at that point, and he offered to sign away his parental rights. At this point, Desiree was already suspicious that Kane had been seeing other women and they were planning to separate, but Kane's mother convinced him to change his mind and stay with Desiree to be a husband and a father. And so in February of 2002, the couple began marriage counseling. And understand by this time, it's the

month after he's met Terry, so I don't even know why he bothered going to marriage counseling. But Cain, he stopped going to therapy altogether in June. And by the next month, Desiree heard from friends, one of her husband's friends, that Kane was having a relationship with another woman. This prompted Desiree to start looking for evidence of an affair, which is when she found a letter and a checklist in Kane's briefcase, handwritten by Terry. It said, quote, Kane, to survive this, you'll have to trust me. Contact an attorney. Ask about custody and open adoptions. She can head you in the right direction.

Transfer all unnecessary money to an account with only your parent's name on it. Take her name off stocks, money market, IRAs, 401ks, etc. This includes benefits as well. Put all account info, banks, MM, IRAs, etc. including any paperwork with your driver's license number and social security number on it in a safety deposit box at a bank she's not at. Have lots of sex with me. Unless you are 125% sure, have a DNA test done. You would be amazed what I've seen in my line of work. Document everything. Make sure if you decide to keep the child that you claim this year as single

and to begin alternating years of claiming as a dependent, contact your lawyer with the stipulations as you want. Hit Desiree hard and fast, end quote. So this is a manipulative, cunning sort of person. And clearly, she's already been through two divorces. And you can kind of see, you know, she's not probably a person who's going to be fair in these divorces. She's not going to be like, you know what? We share a child. We've had history. You were good to me. I'm not trying to, you know, destroy you and leave you at the same time. I'm going to be fair, but no, she is a, she's an all or nothing kind of woman. She's an opportunist. She's a bitch. She's an opportunist for sure. And it's very interesting that she's so well versed on this. And I think that comes from someone who's done extensive research for their own life.

You know, it's the only way you become this familiar with this type of thing. Because she is saying a lot of stuff there that wouldn't something you just guess on. She's definitely thought about this before. And it probably was before she met Kane. So there you go. Well, when Desiree found this checklist and this note, she made an appointment with a lawyer. She moved into a different bedroom in the same house, but she claims that she could hear someone sneaking into the house late at night and meeting Kane in the master bedroom. The audacity.

During this time, Desiree also learned that she'd contracted an STD from her husband that would cause complications in her pregnancy, making her experience early contractions, meaning that she was in and out of the hospital a lot during this time as well. Desiree even claims that while she was in labor in the hospital with Kyron, Terry strolled her ass into the room asking to see Kane. The

audacity. So in December of 2002, Desiree and Kyron moved out. And she said, Desiree said, literally, as they were pulling out of the driveway, she saw a moving truck in the street waiting to pull into the driveway. And this was a moving truck carrying Terry's furniture and belongings. Because Desiree says she remembers seeing this hideous, ugly couch on the moving truck. She's like, what the hell is this couch? And then later when she's at the house, after Terry had moved in, she saw the same couch. And so she realized like, damn, like I'm leaving and this bitch is moving right in. Now, as we know, this was the time that Terry and her son, James, who was eight at that time, moved into Kane's house. In 2003, Terry earned her master's degree in education from Pacific University in Forest Grove, and she worked as a substitute teacher for the Hillsboro School District until 2006, at which time she became a

full-time stay-at-home mother. Then there was like some restaurant work she did and stuff, but literally she never worked as a full-time teacher. So before you continue, I do want to say something because I think it would be unfair if I didn't. Okay. I feel like we've said a lot of things about Terry, all of which can be backed up by behavior, past history, things that can be proven. I'm not talking about, I'm not even talking about the pings and all that. I'm just talking about all of this, this kind of what we're going into right now.

And some people might not like what I'm about to say here but i'm gonna say it because i believe it uh we can't completely just give kane a pass here either takes two to tango oh have you do you feel like i've been giving kane a pass i i'm not saying that wow when i'm saying the audacity i'm referring to both okay okay they're both gross because because you know there's some things here that obviously Terry is putting into play, but Kane is an adult with a functioning brain and can make his own decisions. And I know I wouldn't wish what he went through on anyone, even my worst enemy. Of course not. But it doesn't give him a free pass on everything else

that appears to have happened. And I'm even going to go a little further. I'm even going to go a little further. There doesn't appear to be anything to suggest that Terry, if she did do this, did this with anybody else. But I will say the fact that you mentioned a couple of things about Cain not even wanting to have Kyron initially is not good. It's not a good thing. I'm not saying that that right there would suggest he had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance. But I will say, I'm going to sit here and acknowledge what you're telling me, because we're talking about a guy who it appears at at least at one point wanted nothing to do with Kyron to the point where he was going to give up his rights to be his father. And it appears that he was more concerned

about himself than about Kyron before Kyron was born. Now that could have easily changed over the years. And I'm not saying it didn't. And more than likely it did because when you have a child, it does change you for the most part. So that's all I'll say about it. I'm not inferring anything. If anybody from Kyron's family sees this, I'm not insinuating anything. I'm pointing out stuff that happened beforehand and saying, again, to reiterate, when we're trying to figure out what's most important here, which is what happened to Kyron, we have to consider all avenues. We wouldn't be doing our job as an investigator if we didn't. So I think when you said like, oh, Kane didn't even want anything to do with Kyron, I don't think it's necessarily that he didn't want anything to do with Kyron.

I think this is a man who, and we all know men like this. We all know women like this. I think this was a person who just didn't really want to be tied down in any way. He's with Desiree, but he's still having affairs. I don't think Terry was his first. I don't think she was his last. And this is somebody who just wanted to be as free as possible. And having a child with somebody now has an extra level of like tying you to that person. And so I think that's probably why he didn't want a kid. And it wasn't specifically about Kyron. And obviously, once Kyron was born, Cain loved him as so often happens, you know, oh, I don't want to be a father. And then the kid comes in and their head over

heels. But and I will say, like, to sort of have a parallel, there's no way that I'm letting Cain off the hook for this because everyone's been talking about Ariana Grande. Have you heard this? Ariana Grande like broke up this family. I have, listen, listen, I have to, what's the word I'm looking for? I have to recuse myself from this conversation.

Okay, well, I don't. So she's, in my opinion, she's being torn apart. And while I see the reason that people are going after her, I also don't know why they're not talking about this dude, right? Because it takes two to tango. And I know people get very triggered about cheating. It's a very personal subject for people. But for me, it's like Ariana Grande doesn't owe this dude's wife and baby a thing.

But the dude, I forget his name, he played SpongeBob on Broadway. I don't see the attraction. All right. I'm just going to say that. I don't see the attraction. But no one's really talking about him. And that does bug me because everyone's like, but no one's really talking about him and that does bug me because everyone's like oh ariana's not a girl's girl well okay but like what about him that's his wife that's his baby yeah okay so like can we like talk about spongebob over here for a

minute and how he's wrong can we can we also like include him i agree so that's been bothering me and this is often the narrative, right? Were you trying to trip me up there? Because I know you know that I'm friends with them. So you're trying to get me in trouble here. Why would that get you in trouble? I mean, giving your opinion, it was not going to get you in trouble. What I will say is her new dude kind of looks like Frankie.

Well, for people who don't know, I love Frankie. I know Ariana. So whatever their business is, is their business. You know, I'm going to stay out of it. But yeah, she's definitely going through it. sins and his wrongdoing as much. It's because I don't believe that anything he did justifies the position that he is currently in now. So I'm not trying to add insult to injury. If you believe in karma, if you believe in things like that, you would feel and understand that he's already paid for whatever he did. He no longer has his son. So I'm not going to focus on him. Completely agree with that. And I want to just reiterate, if it wasn't apparent the way I explained it the first time, I'm not

saying he deserved this. I'm not saying he was involved. I'm just acknowledging, as you're telling us this story, different things that you're saying and things that should at least bring your attention to them. And I do think that a lot of time, I mean, Kyron, again, he was seven years old at the time. So a lot had transpired between when he was in this mindset and when Kyron was taken. Of course. I don't believe that Kane was involved in any way, shape or form. No, I don't either. I'm just trying to, like I said, stay down the middle of the path here.

I think that's kind of my role here and acknowledging red flags or things that are worth noting wherever they may come from. And as far as regardless of who they involve. Well, if you don't consider the things that, you know, Terry took part in or, you know, certain personality things as red flags, and I don't see why anybody would consider Kane being a cheater as a red flag. not, that's not what I'm saying. And I don't want to spend too much time on this. I think it's important that when you tell me that there, or Desiree says- Do you feel like you have to like defend Terry? Is that what you feel? No, I'm not- You're such a good person.

This has nothing to do with Terry. What I'm saying is Desiree, a reliable source, is saying there was a point where Cain wanted nothing to do with Kyron and was willing to give up his right to be his father. And so I don't think that's a normal thing that most men do. So I would say, hey, listen, again, a lot of time has passed between then. So not saying it suggests anything. But when you said that, that was something that I wasn't aware of and something that you could say, oh, did he feel, how did he feel about Kyron as time progressed? You know? And I think the answer is he loved him very much and he didn't want this to happen, but to stay objective as an investigator, I can tell you behind closed doors, would it be

something that I would look into if Desiree told me that? I would not be doing my job if I didn't. That's what I'm saying. Fair. So like I said, Terry worked at the Hillsborough School District as a substitute teacher until 2006. The year before that, however, Terry started hitting the gym hard and she'd sort of out of nowhere developed the goal of becoming a female bodybuilder. And Kane would later say that during this time, he noticed a huge change in Terry's personality. He said she became self-centered and short-tempered. Kane said that Terry was using over-the-counter stimulants and high doses, which will definitely cause a change in your behavior and make you more aggressive and more on edge. She lost 62 pounds in four months. And quote, he said, she's not eating a lot of food. She's exercising twice a day. She's up at four in the morning. She's not sleeping at night. So we just get general irritable

behavior towards everyone around her. End quote. In April of 2005, Terry competed in the Emerald Cup Bodybuilding Championship, and she took fourth place in the Masters category for women over 35. And I'm not going to lie, that's an achievement. As a woman who is over 35, your body is different, and it's hard to build that type of muscle that you would need to even compete. So impressive achievement. But then, like Kane said, she just completely lost interest in the whole bodybuilding thing. And she never went on to compete again. And it was just kind of like, whatever. And I almost wonder if it's because she didn't go get first place. You know what I mean? She kind of

seems like that type, like Lori Vallow, who if she can't be the best at it, she don't want to do it. Like if she can't get this huge confidence boost, this huge self-esteem boost, all this attention. She just doesn't really want to be a part of it. She doesn't do it for the personal gratification. She does it because she wants attention and she wants like kudos. On her Facebook page years later, Terry would write that the year 2005 had been a low point for her. And that's most likely because on July 10th, she was pulled over on Interstate 5 just after 6 p.m. And when she was given a breathalyzer, she registered a 0.15, which I think is, what is it, 0.08 or something? That's like the legal limit?

Yeah, the legal limit, most states, is 0.08, and she obviously blew almost twice that. Almost twice that. So, not good. Quite a bit, yeah. And she would later plead guilty to reckless endangerment because not only was she driving drunk, but she was driving under the influence while her then 11 year old son, James, was in the vehicle. And she confessed to her husband later that she had been drinking so that she could sleep. In January of 2007, Terry, Kane and their respective sons, James and Kyron, moved to the sheltered Nook Road in Portland,

and three months later, Terry and Kane got married on a beach in Kauai. In November of 2008, Kiara was born, and the baby girl became the focal point of Terry's entire world. But her attitude towards Kane and Kyron, and even her son James, sort of soured. Kane Horman would later say, quote, she changed her behavior towards all of us. She would lose patience with myself, James, and Kyron, end quote. It seemed that right after the birth of their daughter, Terry seemed to have a lot of problems with Kane. She would complain about him to everyone, to her friends at the gym, even to Desiree. She would say he didn't give her enough attention. He made her feel bad for gaining weight during her pregnancy. And Kane

denies that he did this, saying, quote, She was always being critical of herself, and I got tired of listening to it, end quote. Terry told her friends that Kane was controlling with how she spent her money, which he did own up to, saying, quote, Controlling my money? Yeah, because she was spending all of it. She was going out and spending it like water and not checking with me where we should be spending our money, end quote. One day in February of 2009, when Kane was away from home on a business trip, Terry made the decision to just completely send her son James away to live with her parents in Roseburg. Kane Horman said, quote, she called me on my first day in California and said they had gotten into a fight. She couldn't handle it anymore. She was

going to call his dad and talk about other options, end quote. Oregonlive.com printed an article referencing interviews with more than half a dozen friends, relatives, former colleagues, and neighbors who painted a complex and contradictory picture of a woman with immense personal charm who could be both supportive and self-centered. She could be sometimes giving, yet sometimes demanding. But the one thread that remained consistent throughout reports of Terry, whether it was her co-workers, her husband, her friends, the parents of her ex-husbands, the one thing that seemed consistent was Terry's need for control and also her need to be viewed positively by others. We are going to take our last break and then we'll be

right back. So after her daughter's born, Terry's behavior, her feelings towards, I guess, the men in her life sort of seemed to shift a little bit. But Kane had also noticed a distinct difference in Terry's behavior toward his son, Kyron, specifically after Kyron entered the second grade. Now, allegedly, Kyron's teacher had a color-coded system in her classroom that would rate her students' behavior. And it was like green cards, yellow cards, red cards, etc. Kind of like soccer, I guess, but not. So green meant good, yellow meant there had been moments of inattention throughout the day, blue meant there was trouble, and red meant the student would be sent home. The teacher would only call a parent in the situation of a

blue or red card, but Terry was the only parent in Kyron's classroom who asked for daily reports from the teacher. And Kane said, quote, Terry wanted notification, whether it was green, yellow, red, or blue. Every day she wanted it. That to me is extremely excessive. The child is in second grade, end quote.

According to Kane, whenever Kyron brought home anything other than a green card, Terry wanted him disciplined. And this usually meant grounding him and sending him to his room for the rest of the night, not allowing him to have time to play or watch movies with the rest of the family in the evenings. Kane and Terry began to argue about her tough disciplining methods, and Kane felt it was harsh that Kyron had no room for error. Now, if this whole color-coded behavior system sounds a little harsh for seven-year-olds, it may be because it seems to be a complete fabrication imagined by Terry. Parents of other students in Kyron's classroom said they'd never heard of it. So I don't know

what's going on here, but it's almost maybe this is something Terry herself did when she was a substitute because remember her fellow teacher said she was super strict. Maybe it was just a reason that she gave Cain for why she started being an asshole to Kyron and why she didn't want Kyron around. And maybe she was just trying to pick a fight with Cain to like further the divorce or just kind of have like constant tension between them. So maybe he would ask for a divorce or something. I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. I kind of feel like she made it up so that she could be mean to Kyron so she could punish him and torture him because yeah, he's freaking seven. If he comes home with anything other than a green card, because I think yellow meant like moments of inattention. Dude, I have moments of inattention throughout the day. Sitting in a classroom as a child works for no one. No kid can sit in a classroom all day completely still, paying attention the whole time. No one can do that. So it seems like she needed an excuse

to mess with Kyron, to hurt him, to isolate him from the rest of his family and to maybe pick fights with his father. Yeah, I don't, I mean, you're the, you're more with a psychological background. I don't, I don't agree with it from a parental point of view. I think I concur with what you said. It's not something I would do to my seven-year-old. I have a seven-year-old. But there are people who deploy different methods and some of us may agree with them. Some of us may not. What do you think about it? Like the other kids' parents were like, we never even

heard of this system. Like it completely seemed made up. Yeah, it's completely odd. I've never heard of it. I mean, not that I'm a teacher. What's her motive to do that? Do you think I'm right that she just wanted to fuck with Kyron and this was her reason that she had? She could justify it in a way if she was mean to him? I mean, it could be. Absolutely. And I do think we've seen cases where, male or female, the step-parents will treat children that are from a different marriage differently. And in some cases, verbally or physically abuse them because there's some level of resentment. They see them more as a burden than as their child. And so, I mean, that could be part of it where she was trying to find a way to, like you had said, mess with Kyron, but without making it

look too obvious and disguising it as a form of discipline. So yeah, I mean, who am I to say that that's not what she was thinking? Well, around this time, Terry also began emailing Desiree often, complaining about Kyron's teacher, saying like, oh, what's this teacher doing? I should have her job, complaining about Kane, basically complaining about everything. Desiree also claimed that she didn't feel that Kyron got the best treatment at his father's house in Portland. In the months leading up to Kyron's disappearance, Desiree felt that Terry might have been messing with Kyron's head a bit, and maybe Terry was even using her son, James, to do it. According to the book Boy Missing, quote,

James took Kyron for a walk in the woods on Kane's five-acre property, then pretended they were lost and he didn't know how to get home. Kyron was scared. Desiree said later he had nightmares for weeks. On another day, James and Kyron were playing at the old shed. Kyron frequently went to feed Bootsy, the cat. James got on the roof and it collapsed around Kyron. Desiree felt Terry was trying to scare and intimidate Kyron. Desiree talked to Cain about the pressure Terry was putting on Kyron. Desiree talked to Kane about the pressure Terry was putting on Kyron. They all downplayed the times when Kyron was scared, Desiree said. Kyron never told his mother in so many words that he feared his stepmother, but Desiree thought Terry was psychologically manipulating Kyron. At least once, Terry hid Kyron's favorite books and toys, including his copy of Love You Forever,

a book sentimentally important to Kyron and his mother. After a weekend in Medford, that's where Desiree and Tony Young lived, Kyron would cry and say he didn't want to return to Kane's house, end quote. So obviously once Kane, Horman, heard about Rodolfo Sanchez, the landscaper, you know, being paid $10,000 to like kill him and Terry's alleged plot to have him killed, he knew he had to get out and he filed for divorce on June 28th, 2010. In the restraining order filed at the same time, Cain stated, quote, I believe respondent, a.k.a. Terry, is involved in the disappearance of my son, Kyron, who's been missing since

June 4th, 2010. I also recently learned that the respondent, aka Terry, attempted to hire someone to murder me. The police have provided me with probable cause to believe the above two statements to be true, end quote. Kane also alleged that Terry had been acting erratically in the months leading up to Kyron's disappearance. He said she was a depressing yet functioning alcoholic whose erratic sleep patterns had negatively affected their baby daughter and she was an exercise fanatic who would often leave Kiara in the gym daycare for hours at a time with a snide aside from Kane saying that he just recently figured out much of that time was spent chatting and flirting with other gym members. A judge barred Terry from having any

contact with her 18-month-old daughter and on June 30th, Terry was seen by reporters leaving her home and returning around 5.30 p.m. in the company of a well-known criminal defense lawyer, Stephen Howes. Howes remained at the Horman residence for about 90 minutes before leaving, and later he would confirm that he had been hired to represent Terry Horman in her current legal troubles. And this entire process of getting divorced

for Kane Horman would end up taking actual years. So Kane filed a restraining order on Terry on June 28th. The following day, a Multnomah County judge sealed that restraining order so that the contents could not be seen by the public, since Kane was concerned about the privacy of himself and his young daughter, and he also didn't want anything in the restraining order to interfere with the investigation into the whereabouts of Kyron. On Thursday, July 8th, Kane asked a judge to order Terry to move out of their house, and although initially a hearing was set for July 22nd to review that matter, Kane and his attorney said they wanted Terry out by that weekend so that Kane could get in there, get new locks installed, find daycare for Kiara, and return to his job at

Intel. Most importantly, Cain was hoping that Kyron was still alive and he wanted to make sure his son had a safe home to return to, and he did not feel it would be safe for Kyron with Terry there. Terry agreed to move out only if Cain would pay for her moving expenses, but Cain said he would not give her any more money until she started cooperating with the police. Terry's attorney, Stephen Howes, responded that his client's ability to relocate was difficult due to the, quote, media witch hunt and news conferences held by the Hormans that were fanning the flames. Howes said that Terry should have until at least the following Monday afternoon to vacate the premises. Also, on July 8th, the judge signed an order amending the prior order that restricted

access to the restraining order file, except access to information relating where Kane and his daughter were staying to protect their privacy and ensure their safety. So basically, it had been sealed so nobody could see it besides a select few like law enforcement and obviously Kane and Terry and their lawyers. But then the judge was like, okay, I'm going to actually release this so that it's not private any longer, but I'll keep protecting the place you live. Yeah, I think that's fair. Now, at that time, Kane and his attorneys fought to keep the restrictions on the file, especially after it was revealed that Terry had given unauthorized parties access to

the documents and information in the court file, even though the only people who were supposed to have access to that sealed information was Terry and Kane, their respective legal teams and law enforcement agencies. During the course of their investigation, the police had become aware of an individual named Michael Cook, a high school classmate of Kane's, and it now appeared that Terry and Michael Cook had struck up a romantic relationship that had not started until after the disappearance of Kyron Horman on June 4th, 2010. The police told Kane that since June 4th, Terry and Michael had been communicating quite a bit through phone calls and text messages. And when law enforcement interviewed Michael Cook and looked through his cell phone, they found several pages of the restraining order that had

been photographed. Michael Cook told the police that he'd gone to Terry's house on June 28th after she'd been served with the restraining order, and Terry showed him the paperwork and pointed out several sections that she found noteworthy. From there, Michael Cook told police that he had shown these documents to at least two other people. There had also been an address that was in the restraining order, the address of where Cain Horman was living with his daughter, and it appeared that Michael had programmed this address into his Google Maps. And Michael Cook said, listen, I just did an internet map search for the address. I never actually went there, but still, it's weird.

It also appears a sexual relationship began between Terry and Michael Cook, and it started on or around June 30th, three days after Kane and his daughter left the house, and the court granted sole custody of Kiara to Kane. And Terry and Michael exchanged text messages that included several photographs of Terry in various stages of undress and graphic sexual activity. These text messages between Terry and Michael Cook started off innocently enough on June 30th, I suppose. Michael apologized for not being able to come over that night. I think he said he had a son or something. And Terry responded, quote, whatever, like I'm ever going to get any ever again, end quote. And Michael Cook responded, quote, hey there now, remember, this

too shall pass, okay? Time heals. Besides, I find it hard to believe that a beautiful woman like yourself will ever have any trouble with that. End quote. So they banter back and forth for a bit about how men are intimidated of Terry because she could bench more than them. They talk about cooking together and arm wrestling each other. But then Terry talks about how she's drinking with one of her friends, Dee Dee Spicer. We're going to talk about Dee Dee in a minute. And the messages get a little more racy. Terry asked Michael Cook if he was attracted to her, and he responded playfully, no, not at all. And then she responded, quote, okay, I didn't want to ravish you or anything. Insert evil grin with latex. Whoops, said that out loud. End quote. So

cringe. Then Terry tells Michael she's going to bed in underwear and a tank top. And she's like, I think you should think about that. And he's like, oh, I already am. And then she asked if he wanted a picture to which he responded, oh, yes, please. And then it gets really explicit. Oh, boy. This is a kid's show here. Stephanie, where are we going with this? To the point where even I feel awkward saying these things out loud. And you know I live for this shit, man. You know. All right. So so shannon keep the camera off me when we're going through this why what are you gonna do oh weird weird i wasn't saying it like that weird get your head out of the gutter keep going it's one o'clock you're already you're loopy go what are we supposed to think

i was thinking like i'm gonna be cringing as it's going on. Duh. Weirdo. You and Terry might have been friends. Honestly, keep going. Okay. So it gets real explicit and I'm not going to do just understand that what I am going to say is like the literal tip of the tip of the iceberg. The depravity of this woman. Okay. All right. So by July 4th, Terry was calling Michael Cook, babe, and telling him she would show him what real pleasure was. Michael responded to this quote,

ha ha, what are you trying to do to me? I think you're really fun. Hey, I have a few minutes. Do you want to talk? End quote. Terry responded she couldn't talk on her phone because there was bugs in the house and danger if she went outside. She wrote, quote, I want you so bad. What do you want to do to me? Six tomorrow. Can I lick you? End quote. They banter back and forth a bit more. And then Terry says, quote, and this is as explicit as i'm gonna get okay quote let me put it this way i have more than one person say i could suck a golf ball through a garden hose that's uh you know what that's something to uh brag about you know it's impressive oh you gotta make that noise? Ugh. Okay.

I've only had five men in my life, including Kay. I don't believe her, but okay. On that note, I want you to get excited and make you want me. End quote. To which Michael Cook replied, quote, oh, you've done that already. End quote. She tries too hard, man. She's thirsty.

It doesn't take a lot for men. All right. She doesn't need to say like, I need to get you excited and have you want me. You don't need to do much. You don't need to talk about golf balls and garden hoses. Yeah, we should name the episode golf balls and garden hoses. We are going to need a title. We are. So that message exchange that I just read you was tame. Tame in comparison to what most of them looked like. And I was laughing because somebody in the comments was like, wait till Stephanie starts reading the text messages between Terry and Michael Cook. It's going to make the storm look like nothing. They were right. They were right. So it was also discovered that Terry had asked Michael Cook to

lie to her attorney and others about the fact that she had gone to his home. And it looked like on June 28th, before Terry had been served with the legal documents, she'd shown up at the gym, the one that she and Kane both worked out at, with the intention of abducting Kiara from the child care center. Terry had asked the clerk at the front desk to let her know when Kane arrived at the gym with Kiara, and then she showed up hoping to check Kiara out of daycare and leave with her while Kane was exercising. And obviously, this was a concern to Kane. But what really caught his interest was a message exchange during which Michael told Terry that he'd seen on the news that she'd hired

defense attorney Stephen House, and he thought that was awesome. And Terry responded, quote, guess how much he costs. And I think Michael was like a zillion dollars, and then she was like $350,000, which is a lot, man. Yeah, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of money, dude. Oh my gosh. And I guess he's like the best criminal defense attorney in the area, you know, so that says something. On Monday, July 26th, Cain filed a motion in court asking a judge to order Terry to disclose the source of the reported $350,000 she had paid to retain her criminal defense lawyer. The motion said, quote, if respondent, aka Terry, had provided funds to her attorney for her legal representation and considers them to be marital liability, these funds are marital property and respondent, aka Terry, should be required to pay one half of these funds to the petitioner, aka Kane, to use for his attorney fees and costs, end quote. Kane and Terry weren't the only ones

talking about money. On Thursday, July 2nd, Helen Young of the Oregonian revealed the search and investigation into Kyron's whereabouts had cost the county roughly $300,000 to that date, which is less than Terry paid for her defense attorney, apparently. Doesn't that piss you off? Because if she is guilty of this, if allegedly, don't come for me, if she is guilty of this if allegedly don't come for me if she's guilty of this this bitch paid 350 000 to get a defense attorney while the taxpayers were paying 300 000 which is going to rack up to over a million at some point to find this little boy that she made disappear does that not just like chap your ass yeah i don like it. I don't like it one bit. And Sheriff Dan Staten was like, yes, you know, we're spending money. But, you know, all but one of his seven detectives were working on the case with another 14 investigators from other agencies.

Staten did not comment on how long they could sustain this sort of effort as far as how much it was costing and how much manpower they could dedicate to this one case. And he could not say whether an arrest or resolution was forthcoming. Sheriff Statton told the Oregonian, quote, ultimately, if we are unable to find Kyron, this could turn into a cold case, end quote. By early September, it was announced the investigation had now reached over $1 million in costs, the most expensive in the sheriff's office history. And this was forcing the Multnom in the sheriff's office history, and this was forcing the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office to change the way it was staffing the case. Sheriff Dan Statton said he was going to pull back all but two of his detectives

and an administration tech. He also asked the Portland Police Bureau and other law enforcement agencies if they would be able to provide a dedicated detective from each of their agencies, and he hoped to put together a task force of eight to 10 detectives who could continue focusing on the case. Statton said, quote, the numbers are the same, but the distribution of resources is much broader. All this information has been compiled. A lot of questions have been answered. We're now focusing on what we have collected and targeting those areas to help the district attorney's office to develop a case they can prosecute successfully, end quote. And like that to me meant a lot because if the

DA's office is building a case, they got to have a case, they got to have someone to build a case against, right? We know that they have to have someone to build a case against. Yeah. And as far as anybody who's looking at this like, oh man, they're pulling back resources to a certain degree. This would be common. As detectives and as police officers and as a police department as a whole, you do get attached to these cases. And I'm sure everyone within that police department wanted to find Kyron. But unfortunately, there does come a point you have to evaluate how much resources has been expended and how many other cases are not being investigated to their fullest potential because so many detectives are devoted to Kyron's case. And everybody deserves the right to have their cases investigated, their crimes against them investigated to the best potential of that police department. So as an administrator, instead of me paying for eight detectives,

we're going to have each department pay for one. And so you're still getting that same manpower without the cost fully being on one police department's budget. I know there are personal cases in different departments that I've worked with where if they had it, they would just have a guy come in and work one case his entire career until it was solved. But it's just not the way it works because as this case is being investigated, however long it's being looked into, however long they're conducting searches and doing all these things for Kyron, new cases, maybe not to the severity, are coming in every single hour.

And there are other victims. It may be a larceny, it may be a robbery, whatever it might be. But those people who are now victims of a crime as well want their cases solved equally as much as any other family like Kyron's family. Yeah, of course. And I mean, this is going to be, going forward, it's going to be like a constant kind of point of contention where Sheriff Dan Stanton is going to have to ask for more funds. He's going to have to like go and justify why he needs it.

He wants to hire a private investigator to help the DA, you know, things like that. Sometimes the feds can come in, they can help. There's all different avenues. But if everything has been exhausted, even the feds themselves will say, listen, we have a million departments out here who need help. And we can give everything we got for this amount of time. We'll give you every resource available that could help. But then as the case starts to, the evidence that needs to be gone through diminishes, it's more of a reactionary investigation than it is a proactive investigation. Because now you're just waiting for more tips and more leads to come in

so that you can continue vetting them. And sometimes it's just sitting by the phone and you can't have eight guys doing that. Oh, and I wanted to say, remember we were talking about the grand jury. So I found out you can call more than one grand jury, but besides that, there was two grand juries called in this case.

I believe it was 2010 when this all went down, and then a few years later, they did it again. We're going to get more into that, but because we're in the summer of 2010, while the sheriff's office was trying to find more money and Terry and Kane Horman were fighting it out in court, the district attorney's office was assembling a grand jury. In July, a grand jury was convened to hear the case, and many of Terry's friends and acquaintances were called to testify, including a close friend of Terry's named Dee Dee Spicer, a 43-year-old woman who'd been spending a lot of time with Terry in the wake of Kyron's disappearance. In fact, she'd even lived with

Terry for 11 days after Kyron went missing. And Dee Dee's whereabouts on the day that Kyron vanished were questionable, to say the least. So we are going to get into that next time as we continue this very compelling case. Yeah, it is very compelling. I think tonight, to summarize, we talked a lot about Terry before, during, and after Kyron's disappearance. And I think there are certain things that you and I agree on that definitely raise some red flags. I think everybody agrees on the pings and the truck and her being seen disappearance and what is acceptable, what isn't. For example, I know we talked a little bit about the gym and going to the gym so soon after. And I think you were more focusing on the fact that she posted it as opposed to going to the gym because we could even argue, you said it right in here, June 28th, I believe it was June 28th, Kane was back at the gym as well. That's how Terry almost was able to abduct the daughter,

Kiara. Am I saying her name right? So it's one of those things where people deal with trauma and stress in different ways, and that's not the problem. What the problem is here with Terry specifically is the knowledge she had about a separation from someone, the allegation that she potentially tried to hire a hitman to kill Kane, and then also the behavior afterwards. If I were Terry and everyone's different, regardless of whether she did it or not, she could have prevented this from happening, right? Let's just say for the sake of this conversation, she didn't do it. Well, if she had walked up with Kyron and made sure he got into the classroom, then there wouldn't have

been an opportunity for anyone else to grab him, right? So at minimum, if you didn't do it, I would not be able to get out of bed thinking about the fact that I am responsible for this little boy being taken and potentially killed because of my- Not that you're saying that every parent who is in this situation is responsible. You're saying you would feel responsible. I would feel that way. You would feel the guilt. Yes. I can tell you I would not be hooking up with other dudes, trying to get them to come over. Posting on Facebook about the gym. 20 days later, either I'd be inconsolable or I'd be out looking for Kyron. That's it. That's the only thing that would matter to me.

Sex, having fun, things like that. Talking, bragging about sucking golf balls through hoses would not even be on my radar. And I think I speak for most sane people when I say that they wouldn't either. Because again, this was someone who was her stepson, but someone she had been with for a very long time. Since he was born. Since he was born. And so unless she's some demented person, which you may argue that she is. I would.

I would like to think she has love for Kyron and would want him back just as bad as everybody else in this equation. So a lot of things in here that definitely raise an eyebrow. And I can see up to this point how other than the ping and the truck and things like that, this could be the problem with this case, right? There's a lot of stuff in here that society and most people would say, this is terrible. This is absolutely terrible. But is it something that you could present in court and lead to a conviction? I don't think so. Apparently not. I don't think so.

You know what I mean? In totality, I'm sure you mentioned these grand juries. Maybe this stuff was brought up to try to say, hey, separately, not so much. But when you add it all together and you paint a bigger picture, it tells a story about this person. But clearly the grand jury didn't, didn't believe that. I'm going to tell you, if I was the DA in front of that grand jury, we would have had a very different outcome. Okay. Okay. Okay. Well, so I mean, that's, that's kind of where, where I stand on this one. It's, it's something where

we focused a lot on Terry as we should. She's the last person to see him alive as far as we know. And there are some things that are very questionable other than, like I had said numerous times, the pings, the truck, the lack of consistency with her story as to what happened. These are all things that wouldn't get confused. You would know exactly what happened that morning or that afternoon when you dropped him off or ran up the stairs. There would be no confusion. It would be one story and one story alone. And it might alter slightly. Like I'm talking maybe like, oh, the door swung left instead of right

or something like that. But you're not going to completely change your story as far as did you walk up the same stairs? Did you walk up separate stairs? Did you run up them? Did you walk up them? Did you see them? Did you not see them?

That's something you're going to remember. You're going to know. And then you'd combine that with the witness testimony coupled with the pings out in the middle of nowhere, where it would be easy to dispose of an individual and potentially have them never be found again because of the water and the way it goes out there. Not good. Anything else from you? You were really feeding us tonight. There was a lot I really couldn't weigh in on because you're just giving us backstory. But I feel like overall, you've given a very good argument as to why you feel the way you do about Terry. I'm not done either.

Oh, I didn't think you were. I did not think you were. Any final words from you? No, no. I just, you know, Terry is a fine specimen of a woman with the golf balls and the garden hoses and the bodybuilding championships. And she could have done better with herself. I mean, honestly, in today's day, she would have made a killing on OnlyFans if only she had just kept her eye on the prize, you know? One final thing, and it's not not i usually try to keep it optimistic i will say is

is if terry is involved the behavior she's displaying after kyron's disappearance is not one of worry which concerns me not at all it concerns me because if she was responsible for his disappearance and she's not concerned about them finding him what what did she do? And why is she so confident? And maybe that's why we haven't found Kyron to this day. Yo, because she put his body in the water that went out to the Pacific Ocean. Allegedly, don't come for me. That's what I think. So she knew. She knew that they'll never find his body. And she knows how difficult, like she does her research on divorces and shit. Like she knew stuff. Like honestly, if I ever get a divorce, I'm going to take her advice. Honestly, because she seems to have been successful in it. But she knew things about like getting divorced that you got to spend some time

looking into. So let's not lie to ourselves and tell us that and tell ourselves that like before she did this, because I do think it was premeditated and I do think she was driving around in her damn stupid Mustang with stupid stupid vanity license plate like i hate vanity license plates by the way i'm sorry red squirrel is that what it was so yeah so stupid you dumbass you're doing recognizance of like where you're gonna leave your steps on the body and shit and riding around your red mustang with stupid vanity plate on you okay okay anyways i do believe she was checking out like the Okay. Okay. We get it. just venturing into without knowing exactly what's going to happen if she placed his body in the water off Suave Island. She knew what would happen and she knows how difficult it would be to prosecute a case without a body. And that's where we're at. So to me, you're right. She was

confident because she didn't try to keep this facade going for very long, right? Pretty much after a week, she was back to business as usual. Like Kyra never existed. Yeah, that's not good. But at this point, it's not only that you're confident, but it's like, I literally have zero care about this kid being gone to the point where I cannot imagine even pretending to be upset for another day because now it's getting in the way of my life and my joy and me moving forward with this new life that I want. I'm going to be happy, right? I'm not going to let this kid make me not

happy because I went through all of this specifically so I could be happy and so I could have the life I wanted. So I'm not going to let him steal that from me for one more minute. I've already let him do it for seven years, him and his father. I'm not going to let that happen for one more minute. And I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to live my best life. It's a lack of self-awareness. It's a, like people said, she could be giving at times and very selfish and self-serving at times. And what that is, is you're a selfish, self-serving person in general. And the only times you're giving is when you need something from someone or you want them to like you so that you can get something from someone. But basically, it's like, I'm going to do whatever I have to do with whoever I have to do it in order to gain something for myself.

And at this point, there was nothing more to gain. It was like, I went up in the press conference. I pretended to cry. What else do you want from me? Back to the gym, man. I just can't stand her. Honestly, because I'm going to tell you, obviously, I don't know. But in my gut, my instincts, every fiber of my body

is screaming that there's no other option than she did this. Okay. And the balls, the audacity, the gall of this woman to just parade her ass around like nothing happened, like he never existed, like he was not important to people. I would like to punch her in her face. That's all I'm saying. Okay. Like, there's a very strong feeling in me. Like, even, what was it, Dior Coons? You know, I kind of, like, was on the, like, I kind of felt like his parents knew more than they were saying.

But even then, I was, like, on the fence, like, where I felt something, but I couldn't really go as hard as I wanted to because there wasn't just that, like, that strong feeling in me. because there wasn't just that strong feeling in me. There's such a strong feeling in me. And even people in the comments are like, everybody in the Pacific Northwest, everybody in Portland, we all know that she did it. And so it's like, this is crazy that she's still walking around free when this kid's life is gone. Because let's be honest, he's not walking around out there living his best life right now. He's not enjoying himself. He's gone. He's gone. And she's responsible, in my opinion.

Okay. All right. On that note, everyone, we appreciate you joining us. If you made it to the end of the video, please leave a comment down below. Let us know what you think of this episode. Do you agree with Stephanie?

Are you somewhere in the middle? What are your thoughts on this investigation after the second episode? We want to hear from you. Everyone have a good night. Stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Bye.