Crime Weekly - S3 Ep138: Kyron Horman: Sauvie Island (Part 3)

Episode Date: August 18, 2023

Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com and use code "Back2School" On the morning of June 4th, 2010, seven year old Kyron Horman was brought to his elementary school by his stepmother so that he could show her his science fair project. Skyline Elementary School in Portland, Oregon was having a science fair that day, and although the school would normally open at 8:35 AM, that morning the doors were unlocked at 8AM, to give the students a chance to tour the fair with their families. At around 8:45 AM, Kyron’s stepmother Terri Moulton Horman took a photograph of Kyron standing in front of his project, a detailed diorama of the red-eyed tree frog. He beamed proudly at the camera through his wire rimmed glasses, and then, according to Terri, she walked him to his classroom and watched him enter. But when attendance was taken that day, Kyron Horman was not present, and he would never be seen again. His mother Desiree Young would later say quote, “it’s like a portal opened up in the school and Kyron just vanished into it” end quote. The search for Kyron has been the largest criminal investigation in Portland history, but to this day there has been no sign of what happened to him, where he went, or who he was with. Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. Talkspace To match with a licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com/CRIMEWEEKLY to ​get $80 off of your first month​ and show your support for the show. 2. Liquid I.V. Grab your Liquid I.V. Hydration Multiplier Sugar-Free in bulk nationwide at Costco or get 20% off when you go to LIQUIDIV.COM and use code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout. 3. SimpliSafe Right now, Crime Weekly listeners/viewers get a special 20% off any SimpliSafe system when you sign up for a free month trial of Fast Protect Monitoring. This special offer is for a limited time only. Visit SIMPLISAFE.COM/CRIMEWEEKLY. 4. Daily Harvest Go to DAILYHARVEST.COM/CRIMEWEEKLY to get up to sixty-five dollars off your first box. 5. Helix Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners! Go to HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly and use code HELIXPARTNER20.

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And I'm Derek Levasseur. So we are finishing up with the Kyron Horman case today. This is part three, the final part. We're going to wrap everything up. But before we do, just a couple of house cleaning things. First of all, Derek and I were discussing about how our kids are going back to school soon. And personally, I'm just stunned at how quickly the summer went. And I wish that I had done more, but I was working so much this summer. But I am looking forward to being able to drink my coffee again in the morning in peace and read what's going on in the news and, you know, just kind of be able to chill and work during the day

without feeling guilty or being interrupted every 20 minutes. So we thought, wouldn't it be fun for the rest of the people out there who have kids who are going back to school to do a little criminal coffee promotion where we're going to offer you 10% off everything on the criminal coffee site. As far as coffee goes, that includes K-Cups. And this is the first time we've actually done a deal on K-Cups. So we're super excited. It's going to be 10% off. And the code that you're going to use is back to school. But instead of using the word to, you're going to use the number to. So back to school. So head over to the Criminal Coffee website. If you're watching on YouTube, we'll link in the description box and we'll put the code in the description box just in case you didn't hear. And yeah, stock up on those K-Cups or those bags of coffee, whatever you want. Yep. And this is the first time, like you said, first time we're doing a code for the K-Cups. So if you're someone who's already drinking them, this is a good time to buy some more. And if you're someone who hasn't tried them, you were on the fence, this is an opportunity to do that as

well. Listen, I field a lot of the customer service calls and I know the conversations that are going on where you guys are saying, hey, I want to try it, but the shipping is just too expensive. To make a long story short, we have zero control out of it. We don't upcharge on the shipping at all. We don't charge for the packaging or anything like a lot of companies do, like the actual process of shipping out your orders. We just charge you exactly what the shipping company's charging us. That's it. And it's unfortunate because we could ship worldwide if the shipping costs weren't so high. But hopefully as things are starting to loosen up a little bit, fingers crossed, those prices will continue to fall, making it easier to get criminal coffee to your door. That's really it. But yeah, check it out. Back to school with the two.

Available now. And I don't know how long we're going to leave it up for. What are we thinking? A couple of weeks, maybe? A couple of weeks, yeah. A couple of weeks. Never know. So don't wait because all of a sudden I might just hit that button. Code's over. Code's over. Gone. Now, if we sell a ton of it, I'll have to end it even sooner because we only got so much in stock. But yeah, figure a couple of weeks. Let's talk about Kyron. Let's talk about him. Let's do it. All right. So we're diving right in without further ado. And we're kind of starting off a little bit like where we left off last time. But Desiree and her husband, Tony Young, met with the chief deputy district attorney, Norman Frank, on July 11th, 2010. And he told them that the police had discovered Terry's affair with Michael Cook, who, remember, was a friend of Kane Horman's from high school. And they'd also uncovered these steamy text messages and nude photos being exchanged between the two. Now,

the plan, apparently, was to offer Terry a deal. So she would offer them a statement of intent and tell them where Kyron was, or they would release the sexting information and prosecute her on a contempt of court charge. Ultimately, Terry would decline to accept this deal, continuing to insist that she had no idea what had happened to her stepson. The last time she'd seen him, he was walking into a second grade classroom at Skyline Elementary School. During the week of August 2nd through the 6th, multiple witnesses appeared in the Multnomah County Circuit Court to answer questions about Kyron and Terry in front of the grand jury. And during this process, a few people who attended the same gym as Terry testified that she would often complain about being a stepmother. But the most interesting witness to be in attendance was a 43-year-old woman named Dee Dee Spicer, who'd become a focal point in the case after being named as a possible accomplice to Terry Horman during the suspected abduction of Kyron.

Now, Dee Dee's name came up in the media for the first time on July 2nd, when Kane Horman and Desiree Young revealed that they'd been told by the police that Terry had been getting advice that was not in the best interests of their son from her friend, Dee Dee Spicer. The statement said that Dee Dee was refusing to cooperate with law enforcement, and she, quote, is also going as far as to suggest to others that may have information regarding Kyron's disappearance not to cooperate as well, end quote. It was then revealed by a neighbor of Spicer's that the FBI and local law enforcement had been at her condo on July 15th, going in and out, reportedly searching it. Authorities are now applying pressure to those close to Kyron's stepmother, no one more so than her friend, Dee Dee Spicer. Why won't you say anything? It's important. This little boy's been missing for a long time. Police have searched Spicer's home. She appeared before a grand jury last Monday.

Dee Dee's friends also revealed that she moved in with Terry Horman soon after Terry's husband, Kane, moved out and filed for divorce. And she said, no, I need you now. And Dee Dee, because Dee Dee is the friend that she is, stopped what she was doing and went out and stayed with her for 10 days. Prosecutors want to know what the two talked about in those 10 days. Kyron's parents feel Dee Dee's advice to Terry Horman was, quote, not in the best interest of their son. Prosecutors would want Dee Dee to tell them everything they can about the way Terry acted, what she said, who she saw while Dee Dee was living with Terry. Investigators say they're making progress, but with no tangible evidence, all they can do is question people they suspect have answers. By bringing Dee Dee to the grand jury, the prosecutors are sending a message that the focus is on Terry and the people who are closest to her.

Dee Dee Spicer is expected to be called by the grand jury again in four to six weeks. So this is interesting. I'm assuming based on what they have, police have, there was probably some advice to not cooperate with police anymore because they already believed it was her. Who knows the extent of what this what what was not suitable or what wasn't in the best interest of Kyron's case. But I will tell you, if D Dee wasn't in on whatever Terry did, if she was involved, I don't think that Terry's the type of person who's going to tell her later. So I don't know how much, if anything, is going to come out of that, the observations from Dee Dee, because I don't think Terry would do anything that would be overtly incriminating. I think if anything, she would use Dee Dee as a character witness to show

she did not do it. So it would be all of like an act for those 10 days. That's just my opinion. But the 10 days that Dee Dee and Terry were living together. We're living together. That's right.

If Dee Dee wasn't in on it from the beginning, I think Terry would more use her as a person who she could create the situation where Dee Dee would be out there advocating for her because of what she quote unquote displayed during their time together.

And there's no way she could have done this. You know, I don't I don't think she's going to confide in DeeDee or anybody else for that matter. I think this is something that Terry, if involved, is going to take to her grave. D.D. Spicer, fire were stoked when police released a flyer to residents who lived near Skyline Elementary School asking if they had any information about Terry Horman or D.D. Spicer and their Terry, whether separately or together, between the hours of 9.45 a.m. and 1 p.m. that day. And specifically, it seemed that the police wanted to know if there was another person sitting in the truck while Terry was at the science fair with Kyron. gotten a tip from a couple witnesses who said that they saw Terry's truck or a cane's truck parked on that like elevated like street behind the school not in the parking lot and when Terry would have been inside the school with Kyron there was somebody in the truck still oh that's interesting so obviously they're insinuating it could be Dee Dee who was waiting who's standing by for them to come back out and whatever happened after that.

And help with whatever happened. Yeah. Interesting. And you think that, well, she would have had to pick Dee Dee up on the way or Keene would have known. I mean, you would think there'd be ways to confirm that. She would have had to have helped. Yeah.

She would have had to have picked Dee Dee up on the way. And where Dee Dee allegedly was that day, it would have been possible to pick her up on the way from the house to the school. Seems awful complex. Well, isn't it always? So when asked about his opinion of these new developments and what they meant for Terry Horman, former Multnomah County Prosecutor Alifair Burke said, quote, They may very well have her movements down, speaking about Terry, but are looking for people who can corroborate them. I think they have a theory

of what happened, end quote. D.D. Spicer's lawyer came out and said it was untrue that his client was not cooperating with the police, but he also said something very interesting and telling about Terry Horman. Spicer's attorney claims she is being treated unfairly. But when asked about her friend, the lawyer predicts time is running out for Terry Horman. I would be frankly surprised if Terry Horman did not eventually face charges in this case. I would just be very surprised if an indictment didn't come down. Well, I mean, speaking of truth, he ain't lying. He does. He's not under any requirement to protect Terry. She's not working for him. You know, he's not working for her. So at that point, he's just talking as a

as any citizen of the society, a society with a legal background. So I mean, I'm sure DidDee wasn't thrilled about it. justice for Terry, you know, she could never do this. But this whole kind of like initial stance of distance and silence, it took a turn in mid-August when Dee Dee gave an exclusive interview to People magazine. And that is when she publicly defended her friend and claimed she didn't believe that Terry had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance. She said, quote, in my heart, I really don't. In all of these years, I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe she is capable or motivated in any way to do something like this, end quote. And I get it.

But also, I feel like you never really know someone, right? Like I always talk about Chris Watts, but like everyone was stunned when it came out what he had done to his pregnant wife and two daughters. They were like, absolutely not. He could never. He's the nicest guy. Would give you the shirt off his back. Would do anything for you. When somebody is truly disturbed enough to hurt a child, they probably have some good experience of hiding who they really are and not

showing that to the people around them. you know? I agree with you. You're not wrong. Well, Dee Dee also talked about her whereabouts on June 4th. She claimed she had been gardening at West Wind Farm Studio, an over 40-acre property on Old Germantown Road. And this was a property that was scheduled to be on the Garden Conservatory tour the next day. So basically, this is a private residence with like these beautiful gardens and landscaping. And then there's going to be a tour

that goes through these different properties in the area. And then people are going to walk around and like, oh, look at all the flowers and stuff. So because what she did was gardening for a living and landscaping, that's what she was doing at this property on that day, getting it ready for the tour the next day. And when we get back from our first break, we're going to talk about what Didi claimed she was doing that day. So according to Didi, she remained on this property on Old Germantown Road the entire day and never left. But her story was in direct conflict with witnesses who claimed that they had called her in for lunch that afternoon, but they couldn't find her, and when they called her on her cell phone, she was unreachable. According to DeeDee, she got there in the

morning, she went into the main house to check in for her assignment, and then she left both her cell phone and her lunch cooler in her Ford Explorer. Now, she said when she went to check in at that time, she was invited to join everyone for lunch that afternoon. But the time for lunch wasn't set. And the majority of her work that day had brought her to the opposite end of the property near the road, which just so happened to not be visible from the main house. She said that she left her phone in her car basically the whole time. So she didn't know what time it was. And when she finally made it into the house for lunch, the homeowner was like, well, we tried calling you for lunch and we tried calling you on your cell phone, but you didn't

answer. So, you know, you weren't here for that. Additionally, it came out that after Kyron's disappearance, DeeDee purchased prepaid cell phones for herself and Terry to use so that they could communicate without being watched or tracked. Is there something in this that indicates something? Was she not contactable at some point during, is it like a three or four hour time period here where people could not get a hold of her? Yes, the key is on Friday, June 4th, the day Kyron went missing after he was at the school. The key times are in that mid-morning area and the people that owned the property that she was guarding at indicated that they could not find her for anywhere from an hour and a half to up to three hours from roughly 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. Now, Dee Dee is now claiming, no, I never left the property. I was there the

whole time. The problem for Dee Dee is that she apparently has no one to corroborate that particular story. So it's her word against some other credible witnesses. So that's really the problem here. And the key thing would be whether or not she's going to say that same story to the grand jury. Right. If People.com had called you for advice on what question to ask her, what would you have asked? Well, this may be part of the deal of not asking any tough questions, but I would have first of all known, do you have anybody to corroborate your idea that you were never lost left that property I would have asked her about the disposable cell phones whether she purchased any of them

used them and if so why I certainly want to know what she and Terry Holman spoke about when she stayed with Terry for 11 days at that household and also finally last night asked her are you willing to voluntarily go before the grand jury without any lawyer help and without any kind of a grant of immunity? That's going to be the key question here. She's the only witness in this entire episode that so far has lawyered up and is actually trying to negotiate with the district attorney as to when and how she's going to testify to the grand jury. For somebody who's got nothing to hide, that's unusual. I mean, he ain't wrong.

He ain't wrong. I think it's ridiculous to ask somebody to go in front of a grand jury without a lawyer though no i mean to go without in front of a grand jury without a lawyer no i get it i mean it's you're asking somebody go with no protection like no protection so i'm not gonna even say where i fall on this because i don't even know it depends on the circumstances my thing is this this. If you and I, we're friends, as we've established at the top of this episode. We did.

If you're in Terry's shoes, and I know that I had nothing to do with it, and although my situation is not the best. Wait, I'm Terry and you are Dee Dee? Dee Dee, right? And I know, and I didn't have anything to do with it, right? Like I actually didn't. Yeah.

And although my situation looks optically a little suspicious because where things are for me, I'm going to have a representative that I'm going to speak with to make sure I'm not saying anything too crazy or making sure I'm not getting, you know, making sure I'm not going where I shouldn't go, but I'm going to come be forthright and I'm not going to have to negotiate. I'm going to say, yeah, I'm going to have a lawyer with me, but I'm willing to speak whenever you need to. I want to help find this child as much as anybody else. But I will say based on the totality of what DD's behavior was, it doesn't look good. You couple it with the coincidence as far as not being accountable for the time in question, the fact that they got burner phones to talk. Now, I can understand why they would do that because obviously they know that law enforcement

more than likely has something monitoring Terry's phone calls, both text and phone, whatever she's saying. So I understand it. But my question to Terry and DeeDee would then be, Terry, did you have everyone that you were communicating with get a burner phone or just DD? Because that's the problem, right? Like if it's just DD, it raises the awareness of law enforcement because yeah, if you're doing it to just not talk to anybody on your public phone that we have access to, fine. But DD doesn't need to get a

burner phone as well, if that's what I'm understanding correctly here. Only person who would need the burner phone would be Terry, unless DeeDee felt like they had something that would allow them to get a search warrant for her phone as well, which- I think they probably did. I mean, they got a search warrant for her house. Right. And so then what's the question next? What do they have on her that they're able to have a judge sign off on that? Right. That's the, what, what do we not know about me and you and everybody else in this community? Because I don't care how often this case has been covered there. And I know that there's been leaks. There are things within that

police department that you and I, and nobody else is aware of that they have that we would, it might blow our minds as far as what's really going on with this case. So us trying to dissect what we have and what we know was done and Desiree getting a burner phone, it makes you wonder, what do we not know? And just hearing it on the surface, this is kind of a curveball with Dee Dee being in it. I think that this goes back to Terry even where I don't know how Dee Dee would be involved and not expect that she would be seen by someone that would put her there. Like, yeah, she got lucky if that's the case. But how does she know that's going to happen? How does she know that someone who knows her isn't going to recognize her that day at the school and go, oh, hey, Dee Dee, how are you? How you been? Well, I mean, technically she wasn't at the

school. She would have been- Sitting in a car. Allegedly, okay, sitting in Terry's truck, which wasn't even parked in the school parking lot. It was parked out of the view of the school. So, I mean, maybe she would just be, and she doesn't have a kid at Skyline Middle School or elementary school. I mean, so maybe she would just kind of assume like- And how does kid, you know, at Skyline Middle School or Elementary School. I mean, so maybe she would just kind of assume like. And how does she know someone at work is not going to be like, I went to where you were supposed to be because I needed you for something. Dude, because it's 40 acres. Yeah.

So she could say at any point, if somebody said, oh, I went to where you were and you weren't there, she could be like, yeah, that's because I moved on to one of the other freaking million acres. You know, so it's kind of a good alibi. When you're trying to create a crime or you're trying to carry out a crime, you want to try to control as much of it as you can. And when you start bringing other human beings into it that can discredit your alibi, regardless of how unlikely it may be, you're running a huge risk.

You want to put yourself in situations where there's no chance that anyone could, you know, basically prove that you're running a huge risk. You want to put yourself in situations where there's no chance that anyone could basically prove that you're lying. And so I'll say what I always say, we still have more to go, but it doesn't look good. But I'm just highly skeptical of the idea that if Terry did this, she would involve another person. I just don't know. I just don't know at this point. I'm very skeptical of that too, because this isn't like, it's bad enough to think that there would be one person

who'd be capable of hurting Kyron, but to think that there would be two grown women who would be in cahoots. And I'm going to be honest, there's no physical evidence. There's nothing really implicating Didi. That's right. However, I will say that I do think her behavior was very, very strange.

And we're going to talk about her a little bit more later on when she she's brought in as a witness for a civil case. And she she just she doesn't behave in the way somebody would if they were innocent and had nothing to hide. And I find it very difficult to understand why she would defend Terry so vehemently, because even just a standard person can see that Terry didn't really act right in the days and weeks and months after Kyron went missing. So if you lived with her for 11 days and we saw in some way, maybe you didn't see because you didn't read all those text messages between Terry and Michael Cook. But at the time that Terry is messaging with Michael Cook, she mentions, you know, being with Didi, drinking with Didi, you know, hanging out with Didi. So it sounds like they're having just one extended alcohol-soaked sleepover party. And I'm sure a lot of that was like laughing and having fun. I mean, she's sexting while this is happening. So for me as a person, if I'm with this Terry Horman for 11 days and

she's drinking and sexting and just having a good old time, I'm going to be like, this is weird, you know, because Terry can't keep up and act like that for 11 days. She's not going to be crying in the corner. She couldn't even get a tear to be squeezed out during the press conference when it mattered the most. So that's why I don't understand why Dee Dee would so vehemently protect her and defend her and be like, no, never. I can never see Terry doing something like that. And it could be denial that's your friend and you just don't want to admit that they are capable of that. But either way. And I also think Terry's like super manipulative because I watched today actually a two hour special of Dr. Phil where Terry was on and we're going to

talk about that in a little bit, but she is very manipulative and the way she talks is just really, she's quick. She's quick on her toes. She just has a way of sounding sincere, but also insincere at the same time. So for me, I pick up on the fact that she's not being super straightforward and she's saying things in a very strategic way and behaving in a strategic way. But somebody who was close with her and who cared about her might overlook that and not see her charm as superficial. Yeah. Especially if Dee Dee's a type of person who wants to see the best in people. And I don't know what her social circle looks like. She might've gravitated towards Terry

because maybe she didn't have a lot of friends. And this was something where she liked the idea of having someone that she could confide in and talk to. And in her mind, it might've been completely innocent and her just supporting someone who she believed wasn't capable of doing something like this and because of that blind loyalty it made it look like she was potentially a co-conspirator and the idea that she wasn't accounted for on the day of this situation could just be a coincidence yeah i don't know why you wouldn't bring your phone with you when you were like gardening for hours alone i think if you're a gardener there's there's got to be there's something to it where you might want to just want to be

alone and just peaceful and just kind of like you could listen to music put on a podcast like i just you and i are different i can't imagine being in complete silence for hours from yeah we couldn't do that but i feel like there are a lot of people who are like oh yeah i leave my phone around all the time i don't keep it attached to my hip, which by the way, kudos if you're one of those people. Yeah. I don't understand it, but good for you. So on August 7th and 8th, the search for Kyron was refocused on the 2.2 mile old German town road loop, obviously not far from the house that Didi was gardening at on June 4th. And over the next few months, activity in the case focused mainly on searches at Save Island and Skyline Elementary School, as well as the tense divorce proceedings

between Kane and Terry Horman. When Terry filed a motion asking for visitation rights with her two-year-old daughter, who she hadn't seen in months since Kane left with her, Kane responded with a resounding no, saying that Kiara would not be safe with Terry, who he claimed was an alcoholic with an undiagnosed personality disorder. I definitely agree there. Like, I don't know about the alcoholic thing

because I wasn't living with her, but I definitely think Terry has an undiagnosed personality disorder, maybe BPD, histrionic personality disorder, something. She ain't right. So Kane also suggested that Kiara may have witnessed some unimaginable act of horror on June 4th when her brother went missing. And later, Kane would go on the Today Show and state, quote, I have every reason to believe

she, meaning Terry, had something to do with his disappearance, end quote. He wanted Terry to undergo a mental health evaluation before entertaining the idea of letting her be in contact with their daughter. But this never happened because on November 7th, Terry withdrew her motion seeking to see her daughter. And that is suspicious to me. Like, you'd rather not see your daughter than have a mental health evaluation. Does that not suggest that she was afraid of what that mental health evaluation might uncover? I agree. I don't care what it took. If you it's right. Never to see your daughter again just because you're afraid of what. Yeah, I don't see why. And even if it came back and showed something, I mean, what would that matter? I think it was more so she didn't want to open Pandora's box because then if that comes back a certain way, although there's probably some HIPAA stuff, I don't know how law enforcement would use that again. We're going in the weeds, but. I mean, if it came back that she was, you know. Yeah, something's going on there. To be fair to her, and those words feel and taste horrible in my mouth. To be fair to her, if you were a suspect in the disappearance slash murder of a seven-year-old child, and you knew you had absolutely nothing to do with it, but you also knew that maybe like you weren't completely mentally healthy.

You might be worried how the results of that analysis would reflect poorly upon you in the eyes of the investigation. Yeah, I would imagine that would be the case. And also, just going back to what Kane said, as far as his conviction in the fact that Terry did something to Kyron or knows something. I don't think he has access to everything, but he was working with police to a certain degree as far as being wired up. So does he know more than you and I? Yes, he does.

And so I don't know how much they let him behind the curtain to kind of prove to him, hey, by the way, the woman you're living with, we're pretty convinced she took your son. And so what does he know? What has he not shared publicly? He's giving just overall statements saying, yep, listen, I know she had something to do with his disappearance. I'm convinced. This goes back to what's being said and what's still being held close to the vest. And the fact that he's so convinced about this woman who he loved and left his previous wife for, and to completely pull a 180 and be like, I'm taking the kid and I'm out because you're crazy. Other than the fact that she potentially allegedly tried to have him killed. There's something there that we don't, there's another piece to this that we don't know yet that makes this story even more compelling in the sense of that, that Terry was involved.

Well, I think that the police definitely told him things that we don't know about. But I also think it I think it has something to do with hindsight a little bit. Right. Like what he saw and just didn't think it was a red flag at the time. Yeah. Like, you know, maybe he sensed that Terry wasn't the hugest fan of Kyron and maybe he, you know, he and he had mentioned, you know, how her behavior after giving birth to Kiara had changed towards him and even her own

son, James, and Kyron. So all of these things as you're going through life may not strike a chord with you, but if you're looking back and you start compiling them together and then all of a sudden you're like, oh, there were some signs that she wasn't the biggest Kyron fan and that maybe she was not in the best place mentally. So I'm starting to believe this is possible. And then like, yes, hearing that she tried to have him killed, you now know she's capable of something that you didn't previously think she was capable of doing, which leads you to believe that maybe she's capable of doing other things you didn't previously think she was capable of doing. And yeah, one thing leads to another.

And there is something to be said for like a gut instinct, you know, once you start hearing these things and you feel like, yeah, I could believe she could do this. But he's been very vehement about that from the beginning, both he and Desiree, you know, since they started talking publicly, both point the finger at Terry and say that they wish she would be cooperative and tell them where Kyron is. So that is that says a lot that speaks volumes. I believe that both of the biological parents believe Terry H who was allegedly sleeping with her you know partner while she was still living in the home so that's that's that's a tough one to get over but the fact that kane like i said had had has reversed courses uh so dramatically that to me is very telling especially when we consider the fact that he was an agent of the state for at least a period of time where he became he was helping them to try to, to try to pin Terry down. That's a lot. Pretty early on. Yeah. When you're going to break that relationship up and it's not often, we talk about it all the time. It's not often that you can, you can split up husband and wife,

unless there's something overwhelming. And the fact that he was like, Oh yeah, you know what? You're right. She is lying. She didn't drop him off. And the fact that he wasn't a bigger advocate for, no, it could be somebody else in that school. It could be one of these other people. Did you vet everyone? Why are you going after my wife? Pretty quick change of pace considering the relationship. I agree. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. Okay. We're back. So it was right around this time where Terry and Kane are fighting it out in court and battling for custody that Desiree Young was called to appear before another grand jury. And it looks like this grand jury sort of periodically met over the course of several months and several years. And during this time, Desiree was shown an email exchange that took place between

Terry and a woman named Lisa Munson. Now get this, Lisa Munson was the current wife of Gary Munson, who was Desiree's ex-husband and the father of her first son, Quinn. So Desiree and Terry weren't friends. Desiree and Lisa were not friends, but Lisa and Terry were really pretty tight, like pretty good friends. And Desiree was shocked to see how in this email the two women openly discussed their dislike of their step-sons, both of which were Desiree's biological sons. Terry told Lisa that Kyron had not only been coming between herself and her husband Kane, but she hadn't liked the way Kyron was playing with his little sister. Recently, she said he was being too rough with her, and she had to tell him that boys don't touch girls that way. Terry even suggested that one time she'd walked into the room to find Kyron on top of Kiara and she alluded that this was an inappropriate situation. So Terry's basically trying to make it seem like Kyron was just behaving differently in the weeks leading up to his disappearance. She said things like,

oh, he just wasn't acting right. He was having seizures. He was staring off into the distance like there was something going on with his brain. I was going to bring him into the doctor to see. And there's no evidence. Nobody else witnessed any of these things that she claimed. But, you know, if she's guilty, if she did something, if allegedly, this is a way of planting doubt in the minds of people as to whether Kyron could have been responsible for his own disappearance, of whether Kyron was engaged in behavior that didn't necessarily paint him as the most innocent victim, which I don't know how you would do that to a seven-year-old who's literally missing. You don't know where he is. To me, this is another thing that you wouldn't do as the grieving parent of a small child, because it's not as if you know

what happened to him. You don't know where he is. He could be being tortured. He could be in a scary place. He could be hurt and in pain every single day. And I just don't understand why you would say these inflammatory negative things about him to others when he's in this limbo of a situation and you just don't know where he's at, it just feels like you would try to be being positive and saying only nice things about this child who is gone. Yeah. And it could be setting something up or it could be motive. Right. It could be her reasoning behind. We can't understand. We never will. Why she would do something like this if she was involved. But the fact that she's clearly stating in writing, she's not a huge fan of Kyron. She feels like he's a hurdle. He's impeding certain things in her life. You and I and 99.999% of the people out there wouldn't go to this, wouldn't resort to this. So I'm not justifying it, but it could be- Not for a kid, yeah.

It could be how she's justifying it in it could be a kid yeah it could be how she's justifying it in her own head which is what these sick people do again qualifying not saying i think it's like objectively true that she's like not right in the head so she's definitely made some poor choices and ethical choices that i don't think anyone agrees with and i think we would not hang out with her anytime soon. There's a big jump from being a bad person, a shitty person, or being involved in a potential child abduction. But I think you probably might also agree that those who are involved in a child abduction and or slash murder probably always are shitty bad people. I would agree with that. I think

that's a fair assessment. All right. Made me have way. Thank you. Yes. So I almost wondered if like Terry was worried that she was going to get arrested because I'm sure she was incredibly worried that she was going to get arrested. She knew she was suspected. And so she was like, let me start setting up a reason. Like if they find out, if they have some evidence on me that I don't know about, if I did something wrong, if I slipped up and they're going to like pin me to the wall, I need to have a reason why I did this that goes beyond just I didn't like the kid. Right.

So maybe I can now set this up saying that like, oh, he was molesting my daughter and I snapped. You know, it still wouldn't be completely understandable, but at least she would feel she had some sort of leg to stand on, I guess. Because once again, this is not a normally functioning mental person. She's thinking, this is a motive enough to do what I did. And I think some people would understand that. I might get a couple people on the jury who would understand that, even though I don't think in reality that she would. And she'd have to prove it in some way other than some random email that she sent alluding

to some inappropriateness. So it was on the same day that Desiree was shown the email that she claimed she was also pulled aside in the ladies room by a female FBI agent who confided in Desiree that Kane had admitted to them that he and Terry had argued for several hours on the night of June 3rd. That would be the day before Kyron went missing. And Terry had also written an email to another friend letting her know that she planned to leave Kane on June 4th, which happened to be the day that Kyron went missing. By November 15th, Desiree decided the united front that she and her ex-husband had been

showing needed to come to an end. She no longer trusted him and felt that she now had to wonder whether or not he knew more than he was saying. Not about what happened to Kyron, but about all the red flags he probably saw during his marriage to Terry that he kept to himself. On that day, Desiree appeared on the Today Show, making her feelings known and speaking about Kane, saying, quote, We learned all of this information after the fact and from the media. He had several opportunities to let Tony and I know what was going on in the house and he did not. He had several opportunities to make the right choice

and either let me know or remove Kyron from the house. I would have removed Kyron from the house if I would have known what was going on, end quote. And I agree with her here because it has to be incredibly hard to have a blended family and a split family where you now have to entrust your child, your very precious child, into the hands of another person that you did not choose. Right. At least when you get married and you have children with somebody, you chose that person. And so you have a good idea of their character enough to say, like, yes, I think this person would make a good father or a good mother. But now your child has another parent that you had no say in. And it

doesn't matter if you like this person, if you think they're absolutely bananas, if you think that they are mean and angry and violent, you really don't have a lot of say in whether or not that person gets to parent your child. And so it would be up to the parent living in the home with the step-parent to be in charge of noticing if something was off and letting the other parent, in this case Desiree, know, you know, I don't feel right about this. Like, is it okay if Kyron comes and stays with you for a few weeks while I figure out what's going on?

Yeah, I think that's fair. And I think the fact that Cain's saying in hindsight, oh, I saw all these things. Right. I also think there's some, as a parent, and I've never experienced it, there's a lot of anger and frustration. And you're trying to put that on someone that you can tangibly put it on. And so she's basically spreading the hate and the anger and the frustration towards everybody involved and now it's she's directing it at kane she's a mother who's lost her son and i'm not saying what she's saying isn't justified yeah i'm just saying that i you know i understand that right now she's looking at everybody uh and trying to figure out what their roles were in her son's disappearance and how they could have prevented it i mean once again once again, objectively, Kane is the person who brought Terry into their lives,

right? So if you're looking to blame someone besides Terry, you would look at Kane. It's the same thing of when, you know, even a married couple has a child that's abducted. Do that couple often stay together if the child that was abducted was in the presence or company of one parent when it happened? Usually not, because without even meaning to or wanting to, there is a level of blame that is put on that parent. Right. So if if little Tommy is out with his dad at a playground and dad's over here on his phone with his back turned and little Tommy goes missing, little Tommy's mom is going to be like, what the hell, man? Like, that was your job to watch our son, to keep track of him. And I'm sure you didn't mean for this to happen, but I still can't prevent myself from, and in some way, blaming you for this.

So I think it's very, you know, accurate. You have to be careful as a parent, what kind of step parent you bring into your child's life. What do you think the objective was for Dese going on the today show i mean they kane went on the today show too what was his objective that's all right okay so both of them what's the objective there um i would say desiree really truly believed terry was responsible and she wanted to continue putting the pressure on her and she did continue putting the pressure on her she never stopped and even to this day hasn't stopped you know so i think it was just i think kane went on

the today show probably to defend himself against what deseret was saying he went on after her i think they went on i think they might have been on the same episode but you know probably because he did defend and he's like no i didn't didn't know. I didn't I didn't obviously know that this was happening or I would never have like left my son with this woman. Like, obviously, he didn't know. Hindsight's 20-20, this, this and that. But I mean, doing media appearances, I think, is a good thing to do when your child's missing to keep their name out there, especially as time goes on and the world starts to forget. Yeah, I think it's a good thing to do. How long after his disappearance was this? I believe it was November, so the following fall.

Okay. I'm more just curious. I don't know. I always try to put myself in the shoes of these parents and how if the police are actively looking into it and they feel like they have someone, as far as a strategy what is the what is the objective when you go on these shows i could if it's police pressure where like they're

not doing anything and you feel like they're not then that's all that's an obvious one but i wonder you know because a lot of it is probably just to do something you know you probably feel so helpless at that point like you're just sitting there day after day fiddling your thumbs you know after you make flyers after you get the word out after you do that like what is there to do and it's also like from a national perspective i don't know what can be what you're gonna like i said if it's not for pressure to be put on terry or the police or whatever then more than likely people in rhode island are not going to be able to help you you know at that point so it's one of those things. I think it was definitely to put pressure

on Terry, at least from Desiree's standpoint. I always wonder about those things. I know, you know, there's always a plan. There's always a reasoning behind it. And so, by the way, not condemning anything they're doing. They have the right to do whatever they want when it comes to their kids. Just wanted your opinion on that. Well, the issue of funding for the case, for the ongoing investigation, that also continued to be a roadblock. On September 15th, the sheriff's office announced a shift in the staffing on the case,

and with costs at that time over $1 million in rising, Sheriff Dan Staten said it was time to scale down the task force to eight or nine detectives as opposed to the 25 that had been on it previously. That same month, billboards with Kyron's face slowly began to come down. The next month, Multnomah County Board of Commissioners granted Staten $209,000 to cover overtime and a salary for an investigative technician for the Kyron Horman investigation. And in January of 2011, Sheriff Staten told the Oregonian that they suspected more than one person was involved in Kyron's disappearance.

And during the last six months, there had been 646 searches done on 100,000 acres of land. Forty witnesses had appeared before a grand jury and police had followed over 4,000 tips and leads, as well as conducting more than 3,500 interviews. Well, there you go. Yeah. He basically said, like, we've eliminated a lot of people at this point. So I know that was your concern early on. Like, well, are they focusing on Terry without eliminating people? And it doesn't appear to be that that's what was happening. That and what I just asked as far as a question, this could be a situation where Kyron's family is seeing a reduction in staff and a

reduction in manpower and a reduction in posters and billboards and all these things, because at the core of all of this comes down to funding, comes down to the financial element to it, where when you have these resources and you're putting people on these cases, you're taking them from somewhere else and that costs money for overtime, everything else. So at some point, administratively, law enforcement, police departments have to make a decision that terrible decision as to, hey, we have a budget just attention, you could have some type of GoFundMe or something where even though individuals from Rhode Island, as I just said, don't necessarily have any contributing information, they do have money. help that way by donating and allowing Kyron's family to put that money into things that they need in order to help solve this case, including, but not limited to getting private investigators and researchers and search teams out there to come in and do extra work to maybe find something that police haven't discovered yet, maybe just from a different angle. So that could also, to answer my original question to you, resources funding could also be part of the incentive to go on a national

TV show like that and expose yourself to millions of people. I just wanted to let people know when Derek's saying Rhode Island, that's because that's where he lives. So he's using that as like a point of context. It's not, we're not saying that anything about this case took place in Rhode Island. He's just using it as like how he personally would view it. I would hope most of you, unless you're new, most of you probably know by now. You know what they say about assumptions, right? Web sleuths probably know by now I'm from Rhode Island. Well, they know that you are done with me and I annoy you.

Well, that's stating the obvious, but I mean, I don't know what's more obvious, me being done with you or being from Rhode Island. Pick your poison. Touché, touché. So in February of 2011, following a review of the task force's nearly nine-month investigation, the FBI dedicated six agents to help with the criminal investigation into Kyron's disappearance. And on February 22nd, 2011, Desiree Young was in Roseburg. Now, this was the city where Terry's parents lived and where Terry herself had been living since she'd been forced out of her home the previous year. And Desiree decided to go right to Terry's home turf and give a press conference with a special message for her old buddy, Terry.

I will be here each and every day to remind you of what you've done, remind you of Kyron, and make sure that you are brought to justice. Desiree Young traveled to Terry Horman's hometown of Roseburg this weekend. She was there to ask people to basically get in Terry's face. She says if they see Terry around, say at the grocery store or on the street, to ask her, where is Kyron? Desiree feels Terry knows something about her son's disappearance. She says she even knocked on Terry's front door, but no one answered. Terry Horman has been a focus of the investigation, but she's not been named a suspect or even a person of interest in the case. Damn, Desiree going in. I love it.

Going hard, man. I do too. I do too. I say that and I probably shouldn't because... Not in every situation, okay? You have to take some context and it has to be a situation by situation kind of basis, but... At minimum, they put pressure on her to tell more of what's going on. There's enough about Terry and her movements that day that don't make sense. Yeah. To where it would be very difficult for any logical person to say she's being completely honest and knows nothing more. Right. I think that's fair.

Yeah, I think that is fair. You know, we're not condoning going out there and harassing people just because you think they may be involved in something. But like, like, like Derek said earlier, cute. Like Derek said earlier, it's pretty clear that Kyron's parents knew more from the police than we know. Oh, yeah, they definitely one million percent. They did the fact that they're this convinced and they've completely moved off of any potential person at the school being being involved. I would love to be a fly on the wall inside that police department.

Now, by this point, no one had heard a peep from Terry since she'd retained her lawyer, and her silence would continue for several years. On Thursday, June 2, 2011, Sheriff Dan Staten announced that the formal task force would be disbanded as of July 1, but a lead detective from the office would remain working on it full-time with help from the FBI, the State Department of Justice, and county prosecutors. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. On Friday, June 1st, 2012, Desiree Young filed a civil lawsuit against Terry Horman claiming custodial interference. The suit sought $10 million in damages and accused Terry of kidnapping Kyron. Now, it was pretty clear that the money was not the goal.

Desiree said this. She said, if I win this, I'm going to donate every single cent to some children's foundation, missing children's, whatever. I don't want the money. What she wanted was information and maybe access to the full investigative file. And a lot of people do this. We've seen this in multiple cases. When the criminal case isn't going the way they want, they'll file a civil suit and almost have to compel this person to talk in a court landscape. Now, Terry's friend, Dede Spicer, was deposed in this civil suit. And I read her deposition and the questions she was being asked and her answers, and I swear to God, 99% of the questions she pled the fifth

to, which I don't understand because most of these questions were completely benign. Questions asking her, did you meet Terry at the gym? She pled the fifth. Questions of when she had first become aware that Kyron Horman was missing, pled the fifth. Questions of when she had first become aware that Kyron Horman was missing, pled the fifth. They asked her if she knew who Kyron was, and she pled the fifth about everything. It was insane. Did you hear or talk to Terry on June 4th? Did you see Terry on June 4th? She pled the fifth. So that makes more sense of why she would plead the fifth. But to ask if she knew who Kyron was and she pleads the fifth, it doesn't make any sense. And once again, this is not a woman who, if she is innocent, is really doing herself any

favors at this point, because now you have some, some weird blind loyalty to Terry to the point where you can't even answer basic questions. Like what is the point in answer in pleading the fifth to answering whether or not you knew Kyron Horman? Yeah. And that's what I was saying earlier where it's like, yeah, you want to have representation, but you also want to not appear to be impeding the investigation. Saucy, man. Just at least optically try to show that you want to help and that you're on the good side here and you want to be part of the solution while still protecting yourself and not finding yourself in a situation where you're

being charged with a crime you didn't commit. We know that happens. So I understand it. I understand being cautious because it can happen where you say the wrong thing and law enforcement takes a shot and they get an indictment and you genuinely are not involved. So I understand being cautious, but I agree with you completely that to just shut them down and not answer anything and to kind of like spit in the face of what Desiree is trying to do here, which is find her son, is at minimum disrespectful. from a criminal perspective, it doesn't look great when detectives are seeing this as well, and you're just being overly cautious and actually, in a way, like I said, disrespectful to the investigation itself by pleading the fifth on a question like, do you know Kyron Horman? When I was reading the deposition, the term that came to my head was impudent. Like she was being like willfully like impudent instead of showing a good faith effort to help in whatever way she could

while still protecting herself, like you said. So it doesn't make sense to me why somebody would do that when they're under a microscope and they're complaining about being harassed by the police and this and that. Well, you're not really like doing yourself any favors once again. So very, very weird. But by July july 30th 2013 so the following year desiree had dropped the suit she

and her lawyer stated that they were worried about jeopardizing the ongoing criminal investigation and they couldn't really go forward without that full investigative file which it kind of seemed like they weren't able to get and jen, today Desiree Young announced that because of public disclosure laws and because she does not want to jeopardize the criminal investigation, she is withdrawing her civil suit against Terry Horman. Now, that suit was filed last year on last summer against Terry Horman, Kyron's stepmom. It accuses Terry Horman of kidnapping Kyron and asking the court to force her to return him or tell where he is. Kyron was just seven years old when he disappeared from Skyline Elementary back on June 4, 2010. His stepmother, Terry, said she dropped him off at his school for a science fair,

but he never made it to the classroom. Today, Desiree had tears in her eyes while she was talking about her son and explaining that she's withdrawing her suit. It has been three years since you were taken from me and every day that you are not here safe in my arms is another day of agonizing torture. The deafening silence in the house is just too much for me. I miss your sounds and your noises. I miss your smile. And I mean, you can definitely see how even three years later, Desiree is still unable to even talk about

Kyron without breaking down. It's very sad. Terry never acted that way. Ever. Ever. So, on June 3rd, 2014, Kane Horman was awarded full custody of his daughter, Kiara, and Terry was to be allowed strictly supervised visits under a detailed reintegration plan. At the end of that month, Terry filed a petition in Douglas County asking to change her name legally to Claire Stella Sullivan, claiming she wanted to avoid the stigma of the Horman name. She claimed her life had been threatened, she'd been stalked, and she'd been unable to find a job since Kyron had gone missing. Circuit Judge Randolph Lee Garrison denied Terry's request, telling her, quote, Your connection to the Kyron Horman disappearance is something of great public interest. There are folks that say you have nothing to do with it.

There are others that think that you have. As long as the matter remains unsolved, unresolved. And until more information is given by you about that, it doesn't seem to be in the public's interest to change your name, end quote. Love that judge. He's like, well, until you tell us what we want to hear, you don't get what you want, bitch. Yeah. At minimum, you're not being cooperative. You're the last person to see him or one of the last people to see him and you're not being forthright. You've been lying to us or lying to the investigators. You're misleading them. Your story is not adding up. So either you're just a bullshitter, just naturally a pathological liar, or you had something to do with this little boy's

disappearance. So either way, I'm not going to help you. Yeah. We're not going to give you an out. We're not going to help you. So you can change your name and avoid this situation even more. Right. We'll let you we'll give you some protections when we know what happened to Kyron. Yeah. When he has protections, then you can have them. Reportedly, Terry spoke about Kyron during this hearing, saying, quote, He needs to be found. I love my son and I want him home more than anything. End quote. Sorry, I had to like bullshit. Terry also

stated that her attorney, Stephen House, had evidence that she was not the last person to see Kyron. She never said what that evidence was. But I mean, later on, Dr. Phil, she'd be like, oh, yeah, Kyron was seen by a male teacher and like a student. And that's the like evidence her attorney had. However, once again, she never names who these people are. And I have a feeling that Terry, when she was on Dr. Phil, said a whole bunch of stuff that just couldn't be verified because the police are not going to publicly verify or not verify the things she's saying because it could, you know, impede the investigation. And so she can just make a bunch of random claims,

like I believe she did. And there's not really any repercussions for that. Yeah. I will say there were some people in our comments, because I was reading a few of them, where they were saying that there was some information, as you just alluded to, that a couple individuals may have seen Kyron after Terry had left the building. And if that's true, by all means, why haven't the police said that yet? Because I feel like if that were the case and it was locked in, it was definitive, law enforcement would have said, hey, listen, the woman can't be, Kyron can't be in two places at once and neither can Terry.

We know that Terry left the building at this time. And we know that people saw Terry with kyron after she left the building right we we have people who said that they saw terry with kyron after the building but we we don't have anybody else but if they did if they had someone who said hey listen kyron was playing with joe and jimmy and it was an hour after terry had already left I don't think they'd be going down this rabbit hole anymore. And I feel like any, especially if it was an adult teacher, would have gone public by now and been like, I did see him.

Yeah, he was with me. I brought him to the bathroom or whatever. Well, I mean, unless that person was guilty. Well, yeah. But the only mention of this I read was that there was a kid, Kyron's classmate, who thought that he saw him after Terry had left. But then it was after. I think that Terry started spreading these rumors. And you know how rumors can sometimes take on a life of their own where they start like slipping into real reporting where it's like, well, we heard this. We heard this from enough people where it has to come from somewhere. Yeah, it came from somewhere.

Terry, in my opinion, allegedly don't come from me. And even if it did, I mean, having a seven-year-old myself, she can't really even tell time. So to under, and maybe that's just because I'm a bad parent. Or even the day, it could have been a different day. Yeah. So it's like to ask children to be your key witnesses, it's going to be very difficult for them to remember what day and time that they saw someone because they don't have the ability to comprehend what's happening and what the significance is of what they're answering.

So yeah, it's going to have to come from an adult. It's going to have to come from an administrator, a teacher, a custodial worker, someone with a bus driver, someone who has the ability to remember dates and times and use other things that were going on in their life to kind of pin down when that exactly was to a high degree of certainty. And I just feel like if we had that for Terry, police would divulge that information to the public, letting us know that she's no longer a suspect in this case, or at minimum, a person of interest, because they've never said she was a suspect, right? Or like Terry, yeah, they never have. But like Terry's, maybe Terry's lawyer, I mean, she's being threatened, she can't hold a job, all this horrible stuff. Maybe he would

give a press conference and be like, listen. We have this person. Think what you think. I'm not going to give names. But officially, we have a person who has seen Kyron after Terry left the school. Well after. That's been validated by the police. And we're not going to release any further information about it.

But I can tell you that much. Nothing. That never happened. So less than four months after getting turned down for her initial name change, Terry tried to change her name again, this time in a different county, Lane County. And this time she tried to change it to Claire Kissel, which she claimed was her birth name. A petition began to circulate on Facebook challenging this name change and gathering more than 3,000 signatures and a hearing that had been scheduled for December 10th

to decide the matter was canceled when Terry withdrew her name change petition. And then she just started going by her maiden name, Terry Moulton. In 2015, Terry relocated to California and she found herself to be very busy there. But we're going to talk about that in a minute because she was busy doing things. But she also found time to be a guest on the Dr. Phil show at the end of September 2016, where she publicly discussed Kyron and his disappearance for the first time ever. And she said a bunch of stuff. So, you know, at the beginning of the Dr. Phil episode, when they play like dramatic music and give teasers for what's to come, you know, like on today's Dr. Phil and then Terry Horman pops up on the screen and she's like,

Hi, I love Kyron. So during that part, Terry says, Why was I never charged? Because I'm not guilty. I'm not a person of interest. I'm not a suspect. And there's a good reason for it. Fact is, I don't know where he is.

I don't know who has him. I do not know if he's alive, if he's being held captive, if he's in a good place or not. And I would trade him spots if I could. End quote. OK, so Terry goes on to tell Dr. Phil she considers herself to be Kyron's true mother and she's suffering every single day without him. And she's an innocent person. And Dr. Phil asked Terry, you know, if you say there's so many misconceptions about this case, why have you waited so long, six years, to set the record straight? And Terry claimed, you know, I didn't want to wait this long, but I'd been advised from the very beginning by law enforcement to not talk to anybody about it.

And also Kane, my ex-husband, told me not to talk to anybody about it. And then eventually when I hired a lawyer, he told me not to talk to anybody about it. But trust me, I wanted to. And she said she was asked, she asked multiple times the police, like, could she talk about it? Could she give interviews? And they told her she wasn't allowed to, which doesn't make sense because Kane and Desiree were out there talking to every media outlet. So why would the police tell Terry, like, oh yeah, let these people talk mad shit about you and smear your reputation, but you, you should be quiet.

And if anything, the police would want Terry's ass to get up on screen and start giving interviews like Letitia Stouck did when Gannon went missing so that she catches herself up, so that she talks to Fox News one day and local news outlet the other day and then maybe CNN the next day. And then they can compare her statements and see, is she lying at any point? Is she changing her story up at any point? How is she behaving? Police love when you and suspects go

and give interviews for television programs. So I don't believe her. She basically blamed them and said that's why she didn't talk to anybody. Dr. Phil was like, well, that's unfortunate because people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing. And it's really bizarre that people would tell you to not be open and honest, you know, in order to get Kyron's name and story out. And I do love Dr. Phil for this. Like, I know some people don't like Dr. Phil, whatever, whatever. And some people don't like Nancy Grace. But what you will get from Dr. Phil and Nancy Grace is like, they're going to call these people out. You can pretty much tell, you know, they're trying to be unbiased and they're trying to make these people feel comfortable. But you can pretty much tell that like Phil and Nancy

know what's up and the person sitting in front of them can also tell. And at times that will make the person nervous and maybe, you know, trip up. So Terry replied, quote, Well, they got to keep it down because there's a lot of political corruption going on in Portland with law enforcement. And in order for them to keep things under wraps and not tell the truth, there's exonerating evidence about me. And rather than tell the public what's going on, they'd rather keep their jobs and not look for a little boy. That's their focus. It's not on him, end quote, which once again is total bullshit because we heard how many searches happened. We heard it was over a million dollars. And Dan Staten, the sheriff, was constantly going back,

trying to get approval for more funding to continue this investigation. So there were absolutely, there were searches constantly happening for Kyron. So I don't know what she's talking about. They're not looking for a little boy. So Dr. Phil also asked about Terry's cell phone pinging on Suave Island. And she responds, that's not true. Because according to Terry, there isn't even a cell phone tower on Suave Island, to her knowledge. And then later on in the episode, Terry says, oh, and there's cameras on the bridge going to that island. And I was never seen on any of these cameras going to the island. Now, once again, this is something that I'm saying. She can just kind of say things and the police aren't going to comment on what she said on Dr. Phil. They haven't commented on what Desiree

said on Dr. Phil, what Kane said on Dr. Phil. It's just not their position to do that. They keep everything to themselves and they can't really control what other people are doing, but they're also not going to come and set the record straight. It's not their job and they have an actual investigation to do. So she can just say random things like there's no cell phone tower on this island. Well, what do you, there's nobody on that island who has a cell phone tower? Like who owns a cell phone? No one on that island owns a cell phone? No, that's, it's again, not's saying. It's what she's not saying. There might not be a cell phone tower on the island.

But there could be one traveling there. But there could be a cell phone tower nearby where anybody who's on that island, their phone would bounce off of. Exactly. So she's not necessarily wrong. Oh, there's no tower on the island. Yeah, well, maybe Dr. Phil misspoke and said, oh, there's a tower on the island that you bounced off of. No, I didn't. I didn't bounce off a tower on the island because there's no tower on the island. Yeah. Well, maybe Mr. Dr. Phil misspoke and said, Oh, there's a tower on the island that you bounced off of. No, I didn't. I didn't bounce off a tower on the island because there's no tower on the island. Yeah. But there's one right, you know, five minutes away, right

across whatever bridge to get to the island you take, which is what your phone would have bounced off of, which it did. That's what I'm saying. She's quick with it. Right. Yeah. And she's also had a ton of years coming. Yeah. She knew this was coming. She had a ton of time to plan and she hadn't spoken to the media before this. So there's nothing to compare against her earlier statements. She could basically go ham and say whatever she wanted. And Dr. Phil, I know he's doing his research. I don't know how much he does, but he's getting a lot of the stuff thrown to him by producers. He's doing a million shows per week. So he's probably doesn't have the ammo to hit back at her because he's not as familiar with the case as he could be if he was only focusing on this investigation. Yeah. And if he had any idea that she was going to say there's no cell phone tower on this island, then he could have or he could have contacted the police department or contacted

Kane and Desiree Horman, who probably have more information about the cell phone tower pinging. Yeah, they would have got her. And then they would have been able to counter. But that wasn't going to happen. Terry was also asked about DeeDee Spicer. And she said she didn't see DeeDee on June 4th. In fact, she hadn't seen DeeDee since the previous March at Terry's birthday party.

And at this point, they had not had any contact since July of 2010. And this is in 2016. And Dr. Phil was like, why? What happened between you? And Terry said, nothing. She still supports me to my knowledge. We were advised by our attorneys not to see each other. You have two people together that looks like something hinky is going on. The last thing you're going to do is put those two people back together. And Dr. Phil gave Terry one of his Dr. Phil dubious looks. And he said, quote, you have two friends that have done absolutely nothing wrong.

One supporting the other who has a missing child. And the attorneys say, oh, you shouldn't be together. Don't be friends anymore. Don't support one another anymore. Don't be together anymore. That's just bizarre. End quote. And Terry responds, quote, you can't make this stuff up.

I'm telling you. And Dr. Phil says, oh, yeah, you can. And the audience starts clapping, right? Because, you know, they pan over the audience sometimes when Terry's talking. And these people in the audience look like literally like they hate they hate Terry. Right. You understand that. I do.

I do. I am that audience member. And I would have like stood up and gave a standing ovation when he said, oh, yeah, you can make this stuff up. That was the best. And it's funny, like, I really want you guys to watch this, this Dr. Phil clip, because Terry's like, well, you know, she kind of gets like defensive and tries to laugh it off after he says that. But you can tell, like, it kind of threw her, which I love. Now, Terry accused Desiree Young of making things up about her and taking the focus off of her own son purely because of her hate for Terry. Terry also said she

was unhappy in her marriage with Kane and she had told him that, but he wasn't so good at listening sometimes, which prompted Dr. Phil to tell her that he'd seen interviews with her in the beginning where she was telling the press that Kane hadn't moved out. Remember when Kane took their daughter and left, the press were like around Terry's house and she was like, everything's fine. Those are rumors. Don't listen. And he was like, well, were you lying? And she responded once again that she'd been told to lie by the police. She said the police told her if she gets caught by the media, if for whatever reason they come upon her and she wasn't expecting it, just whatever you can make up at the time, just tell them everything's fine if they ask. She said that is what she was told to do and say. So Dr. Phil says to Terry,

you lied to the media? And she said, yes, because I was told to. Dr. Phil says, all right, so some cop tells you to lie to the media. You say, okay. Some cop tells you, don't go out there and talk about your missing son. And you say, okay, I really don't understand that. It seems to me if your son is missing, absolute transparency would be the number one tool you would use to help find him. But instead, you don't speak out. And when you're asked questions about the status, you lie about it. And if you did follow that advice, why are you speaking out now? And Terry said, well, because he needs to be found. And Dr. Phil cuts in and says, well, he needed to be found then. And Terry responded much the same as the Nazis did during the Nuremberg trial.

Quote, I was following orders. End quote. She also said that after she retained an attorney, she was told not to talk. And she asked him to speak for her and give a statement for her on her behalf. And he didn't. So we're going to take our last break and then we'll come back and kind of, I'll get your, your take on that. Keep it going. I don't have a ton to say about it. I mean, overall, I think Dr. Phil spoke for most of us

where it doesn't make a lot of sense. All he's doing is calling out things that are common sensical. It's not even from his psychological background or investigative background. It's just, Hey, listen, just pragmatically looking at this, what you're saying does not make sense. So I'm giving you an opportunity here to make it make sense. And she's not doing a very good job of that because if she is in fact lying, it's hard to go back and rewrite history. Whatever happened, happened. And even though she's kind of got the, you know, she's got the upper hand right now because she knows the full story and Dr. Phil doesn't, all he's doing is just throwing back common sense of cool questions at her, which is in turn making her look worse. I agree. And Dr.

Phil asked Terry, and I could tell he was setting something up when he was asking her. He was like, do you, did you love Kyron the same as you would love your biological son? Did you love him the same as if you'd given birth to him? And she says, yes, I did. And Dr. Phil said, so losing this child, not knowing where he is, that would be incredibly difficult for you because you loved him like your own son that you gave birth to. And Terry agrees. And I think this is where she has continually tripped herself up because she always insisted that Kyron was like a biological son to her and she loved him and she just wanted him home. But she just did not act like his biological parents acted in the wake of his disappearance. Dr. Phil wanted to know if Terry looked at Kyron as her true son, why did she post on Facebook about hitting the gym four days after he went missing?

And once again, she said that was because the police had told her to do that. The police had told her to do things that they normally would do. And Cain was actually with her at the gym that night. And Dr. Phil wanted to know if the police told Terry to sext with another man 26 days after Kyron went missing. He said, quote, I have to tell you, I have a hard time squaring this up. And I have to say, I took out, there was many of these that simply FCC can't put up, end quote, which was pretty much echoing my sentiments of how I felt that some of those texts were just so explicit that it's like X-rated. Instead of answering this question, Terry claimed that two weeks into Kyron's disappearance, her husband Kane was doing the same thing, and she was using Michael Cook to get back at Kane. But then in the next breath, she said Michael Cook was sent to her house by Kane as a setup. She said, quote, I had no interest in having this

person in my life. This was something to screw with Kane because I was angry with him, end quote. Dr. Phil is like, yeah, maybe, but you're clearly trying to hide it. You talk about not being able to speak in the house because there's bugs and you're sending very graphic photos. This seems like some great lengths to go to for a revenge plot. And Terry says, well, yeah, but at this point, Kane and I aren't even together anymore. And Dr. Phil's like, I don't really care about that. You say you're a grieving mother, but you're doing this less than a month after your child goes missing and no one knows where he is or what's happening to him. It really doesn't add up.

And Terry responded that at this point, she had completely disassociated and she couldn't remember half of the things she'd said and sent to Michael Cook. And Dr. Phil asked, well, were you high or drunk when you were like having these conversations? And she says no, because she's already stated early on in the episode, like anybody who's lying and saying I'm an alcoholic or a fall down drunk, that's not true. People need to stop portraying me as that. And then Dr. Phil's like, listen, honestly, I think it would have been better if you had been. I would have felt better about what you were doing if you'd been drunk or high. Terry said people do stupid things. And that was just something stupid that she did. She can't take it back. It's already out there. And this kind of

felt to me like she was saying, I can't take it back because people already know about it. It's already out there. Not like I can't take it back because what's done is done. It felt similar to I'm not sorry I did it. I'm sorry I got caught. Right. And Terry said at that point when this was happening with Michael Cook, she was so far away from who she is now. And for her and at one point in their marriage, for her and Kane,

sex had been a comfort. It was familiar. It was something that they did to make themselves feel better. So she basically is saying she used Michael Cook as an escape because Dr. Phil says, oh, it was an escape. And she's like, yeah. So apparently in the space of five minutes, Terry's given several reasons why she engaged in this behavior with Michael Cook so soon after Kyron went missing. It was revenge. It was a setup. It was an escape. They also played a clip of Desiree Young when she'd been on the Dr. Phil show, and Desiree said that she did believe Cain was stepping out on Terry, stating, quote, and I told Cain that when you are married to the devil and you give her a reason to be pissed off, all of your sins are going to come back. And here we are in this situation. End quote. Desiree told Dr. Phil that she believed Terry had done something to Kyron to hurt Kane. So next, Terry and Dr. Phil talk about

the landscaper. The landscaper, the good old landscaper. Yeah. Rodolfo Sanchez, who claimed that Terry had tried to hire him to kill Kane. And Terry was like, that dude's lying. And he was persuaded into saying those things because he faced the threat of deportation for himself and his family if he didn't cooperate. She never states who threatened him with deportation. But I think we can put two and two together. It's all that corruption in the Portland law enforcement. They'd rather make themselves look good than look for a little boy. And Terry made similar claims about Dee Dee Spicer being threatened by the. And she said that on Mother's Day, he came to her house to do some work. And for some reason that day, he was all dressed up and he was wearing cologne.

And he came up to her and he put his arm around her and gave her a kiss on her ear. And he wouldn't let her go. And she was like, oh, no, I am with this strange man in the middle of four acres. And Rodolfo is going to rape me. That's what Terry claims she thought. And so Dr. Phil's like, oh my God, how horrifying, how traumatic. But did you tell your husband about this? She's like, no, because Cain didn't know that I'd hired someone to do yard work. And Dr. Phil cracks a joke and he's like, well, what did he think, the grass

mowed itself? And Terry responded like very gravely because she does not like when Dr. Phil makes jokes. She's like, no, listen, you understand. Kane was super hard on me and my son James. And he thought that it was our job to do the landscaping and keep the house and the grounds up. And then she's like, and you don't understand. This wasn't just a yard. It's like four acres and it's two acres of movable land. I think she means like land that needs to be landscaped.

And she was like, the landscaper would come because we didn't have the time, me and James, to do this. So the landscaper would come and then I would just tell Cain that James had done the work. And since she was paying Rodolfo out of her own pocket, Cain didn't have to know. And Dr. Phil kind of goes on like a little rant at this point. I didn't think it was necessary I didn't think it was like necessary, but he's basically like, you see how one lie leads to another lie. You lied about hiring a landscaper and then that landscaper tried to rape you and then you couldn't tell your husband about it.

You had to lie about that. And then just lies upon lies upon lies. It's like, I think she knows that she's a bad person, dude. You would think she would know that going on the show, it's not going to end well either. Like, I don't know how you go on a show like this. If you know who Dr. Phil is and you know what the show is, you know how it works. You're not going on there for them to paint you as some innocent victim, especially if they've already had Desiree on. So they're not going to this is not going to go well for you.

So I don't know how you get together with your team or your lawyer and say, hey, you know what's a good idea? Let's go on Dr. Phil. And I think we can convince the world that I am innocent. So that's, as far as legal counsel is concerned, right there he should be fired or she should be fired for allowing her to do that. I don't know if she even had legal counsel at this point maybe not you might be right later you might be right and then and also to go back to what terry was saying earlier as far as like police putting pressure on the landscaper and on dd i will say this from my perspective i don't think i'm saying

it's going to be a surprise to most of you. Some of the things probably are true. There's probably some truth in what you should. No, no, no. The landscaper went to the police. Well, the landscaper like willingly told the police this stuff. She's claiming that the police told him to lie about her hiring him. Yeah. That's why I'm saying some of it might be true. Not necessarily everything that she's saying, but I will tell you, because I've done it where if you have individuals like a DD who are not being necessarily completely forthright with you, you will find avenues that are something that is important to them and let them know like, Hey, listen, we could make your life miserable. Now, you're not doing that to get them to confess to something they didn't do or to lie about something. But I have to be transparent with you guys and say that we do use tactics sometimes where being the nice guy doesn't always work. If someone committed a crime or knows someone who committed a crime and they're not going

to snitch on them, we sometimes have to fight fire with fire within the confines of what we're allowed to do legally. And some of you guys might clutch your pearls and go, oh, wait, you shouldn't do that. Well, if it's true what we're saying and you're putting yourself on the radar, would I go to that length to try to find this little boy? I would not be telling you the truth if I said I wouldn't. And maybe that makes me a bet. But I'm just saying I would do what I need to do as an investigator again, within the confines of the law, where if I have something, and I don't know if what she's saying is true, but if she is telling the truth, to your point, Stephanie, what I'm saying is they weren't saying it in the context of you need to lie right here,

or we're going to get you deported. No, but that's what she was claiming. Of course she was. But what I'm saying is there might be a little bit of truth in what she's saying, but it was more along the lines of, hey, listen, we know what you said. We have that. You came to us. Now you're backtracking. Maybe you don't want to participate because you're nervous.

This might come back on you if you got to wear a wire or something, because they're not always willing to be a confidential informant. I think Rodolfo was completely game for this, if you got to wear a wire or something, because they're not always willing to be a confidential informant. I think Rodolfo was completely game for this because honestly, it was probably offensive to him that Dee Dee assumed just because he was like, you know, maybe foreign born and like a gardener that he would just be like somebody she could hire. Of course, yeah.

To like kill somebody else. Like, what's wrong with you? This man's like sitting here doing a good job and like just trying to make an honest living and you're trying to hire him to kill somebody because of why? Because he's Hispanic? Dude, are you kidding me? Like that's the most. Yeah. So honestly, I think Rodolfo was like, yo, I can't wait till someone comes and asks me about this Terry bench. It could be. And I'm just saying more. But did they put pressure on Didi? Probably. Didi and other people. And then just in general, talking about cases, as we continue to discuss cases here, there may be police aren't always the nice guys that are like, oh, you know, sit down. You want a cup of coffee?

They may start that way. But if you're putting up wall after wall after wall, every action has a reaction. And so there may be times where someone comes out who we think might know something that could help solve a case and like, oh, the police were super mean to me and they were threatening to put posters of the victim up near my work. Yeah, it may not all be the nicest thing to do, but we are there working for the victim who can no longer speak for themselves. And sometimes there's a, there's a, it's a fine line, right? But we get close to that line in order to help push this case forward. The problem is when police go past it and start to get into that area where they're doing things that they shouldn't do, where it becomes a problem. But honestly, I feel like if you're cooperating and you're doing your best and the police can see that you're doing your best, they're probably not going to do that to you.

And if you're telling them something and it lines up with the evidence. Yeah. It's when they feel like you're withholding something and you're not telling them everything that you could be telling them. That's when they would come in and they would use some of these tactics. I think obviously I would, too. Like, you know, I'm not the biggest fan of law enforcement and the tactics that they sometimes use. But if I'm looking for Kyron and I sense very strongly that you're holding something back that could help me find him and I don't care why you're doing it. I do not care why you're doing it,

but I will get it out of you. Yeah. Like hypothetically, if you say you're in one area and you're, you know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes away on an Island when you said you were there, hypothetically, that may raise some red flags for the law enforcement who's trying to, in the beginning at least, just confirm, corroborate your story. Just to say, oh, we don't think this stepmother had anything to do with it, but we got to rule her out because that's our job.

So where were you? And she gives you this whole list and then you get the coordinates and she's like, well, she was nowhere near there. That's a lie. She was nowhere near there. So you go back to her and she gives you like a, and now it's like, oh, well, this isn't looking good, Bob.

We might have to look into this one more. That's how it happens. And honestly, that all stems from the very, you know, obvious supposition of if you really cared about this kid being found, why would you lie? I agree with that. So at the end of the two hour,, two-part Dr. Phil show, Terry tells Dr. Phil about some exonerating evidence that she was aware of that the police had not released to the public. She said, quote, the day before on June 3rd, when I was completely

someplace else at the doctor's in the gym, there was a man in a white pickup truck, a Ford, and he was parked at 7-Eleven on Highway 30, which is near the school. He was acting very strangely, and he was addressed by one of the employees there that came out and asked him what he was doing because he'd been pacing back and forth in front of the 7-Eleven for about an hour. I'm not sure what the entire conversation was about, but I do know from these witnesses that this man asked the employee where the nearest school was, and the employee told him Skyline, and this is the day before after all this happened another employee that was working there that day she contacted the police and said hey there's this strange guy here we've got a tape of it would you like to come see it the cops went

over there viewed the tape and she asked well would you like to take it and they said no we're good they didn't even take the tape end quote i don't really believe any of this shit i don't believe it i don't believe it and if the this man was cited and if there was a tape of him i'm sure the police followed that lead until the very end i would like to think after a national show like dr phil if this were true there was any truth to it law enforcement because of how public this case was would have come out you've got a picture of him, this possible suspect. You could post it everywhere. You could put it out on all the news networks. Be on the lookout for this guy. Yeah, of course.

She's a damn liar, allegedly. I would like to think that law enforcement, without jeopardizing the case, would respond to this one specific incident and say, hey, this is what actually happened. We've identified that person. It is true. We're able to rule them out. We have an alibi for them that's been confirmed, whatever the case may be. But from what you're telling me, the law enforcement never even responded to this though, right? They did not. Which is interesting. It's an interesting choice of a tactic to not respond because there are people that believe Terry didn't do this. And this is something they would probably, or one of the things that would hang their hat on, right? So you would want to kind of,

you know, throw this in a pile of mud and say, it's not true if you could as law enforcement, for law enforcement purposes. But I guess it doesn't really contribute to the case. I think they honestly don't want to respond to anything she says. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It doesn't really contribute to the case. So maybe, maybe not. I think it's one of those things where it's like, if we don't give her attention, hopefully she'll just go away and start talking. yeah. So Dr. Phil asked Terry if she believed Kyron would ever come home, and she responded. J.C. Dugard did. Elizabeth Smart did. So yes, unless she was told otherwise in some way, shape, or form, or shown otherwise, she would always believe he was alive out there

somewhere. Now here is Desiree Young's response to the claims that Terry made on The Dr. Phil Show. I want her to be forthcoming with law enforcement. I don't want her to go out on the media and grant an interview and talk about a bunch of lies. She needs to be held accountable to those lies. Of course, many body language experts and law enforcement professionals gave their opinion on Terry's honesty and her behavior during this interview. Body language expert Vanessa Van Edwards from Portland said that in her opinion, she did not see any love when Terry talked about Kyron. And I agree. And when Terry talked about the day Kyron went missing,

Van Edwards said it seemed as if Terry was experiencing a sense of freedom with Kyron being gone. Van Edwards said that Terry lost that freedom when Kane and Desiree began to claim she was responsible for Kyron's disappearance, and now she was trying to reclaim that sense of freedom by telling her side of the story. Van Edwards also said that she believed a lot of people would have a hard time reading Terry's body language because she was very rehearsed, because she's had five years of practice to think about her answers. Additionally, when Dr. Phil and Terry were going through the timeline of the day Kyron went missing, Van Edwards claimed she saw subtle reactions in Terry, saying, quote, If you notice, right when he gets that, she flashed a little micro-expression of scorn or disgust.

And if you slow down that video, that scorn, that kind of disgust is intense anger that she's either being called out or she's being challenged on it. That's potentially problematic. End quote. Here is George Houston, retired FBI agent, talking about Terry's behavior on the show. Retired FBI agent George Houston watched the interview with KGW analyzing Horman's words and body language. He said she didn't show the kind of emotions he'd expect from a mom who'd lost a child she loved. At some point in going down that mental checklist on someone that you've lost and you love, there is going to be an emotional impact somewhere in that list

that's going to break you down. This did not happen with her." Houston also noticed Horman looking to the ceiling before answering questions. Houston says people tend to look up when trying to keep their story straight. He says people who are recalling something that actually happened rarely do that. Houston says truth or lies. He's glad to see Horman talking. He says if someone isn't being truthful, the more they talk, the harder it gets to keep their story straight.

And the more likely it is that she's going to make a big mistake. I kind of love how everybody who talks about Terry on these news shows kind of seems like they just don't believe her, you know? No, and I'm not talking necessarily about Terry because I know this series I might have come off as a Terry defender where I'm just trying to stay in the middle. But with behavioral experts who are way more qualified than me, they've been doing this for many years and obviously the research behind it. But I will say just from a low level investigator who's done this, and I said this to you before, you have to establish a baseline. None of these things like the, oh, she looked at the ceiling during the interview. That doesn't necessarily mean she's lying or mean you or

anybody else lies when they look at the ceiling, because that may be something you do. Sometimes when I'm talking to you and I'm trying to process my thoughts, I'm sure you probably see me do it. I'll look up like this as I'm doing it because I'm like, I'm envisioning what I'm saying. So I just will say for everybody out there, because I think sometimes people take what any of us say to heart, like if we're a quote unquote expert, it doesn't apply to everyone. Everyone communicates in a different way. If he's basing that analysis off of other video that he's seen from Terry, where she doesn't normally do that, I buy it. But I think overall for Terry, without knowing her behavioral pattern and what her baseline is,

just the mere facts of what she's saying and how they compare to what has actually been documented through actual evidence, that's where the problem is. You can look into her behavior all you want. We can all agree that her behavior after Kyron's disappearance is not what most people would do. But I think the real problem starts the minute she's spoken to by police from the time she says she saw Kyron at the end of the hallway to her saying that she went to a certain area for dry cleaning or whatever, and those things do not line up. And that's the problem. And then we're not even talking yet about people seeing her with Kyra afterwards. I'm just talking about the basic stuff. And so that's where

me, that's where I'm really going towards when I'm developing an opinion. This behavioral stuff, it's so, I know there's some amazing people out there that do this stuff and make a living doing it. So I'm not saying it's not, it's like, you know, magic, you know, it's not real. It is. And, and I just will say that you got to understand that it doesn't, the same parameters don't qualify for everybody. Well, I will agree with him when he said he didn't see a level of emotion that you would expect to see. Agreed. I think if you loved a child like that, when you're sitting there and you're going over everything from beginning to end and you have to relive that,

there's going to be a point like we saw with Desiree where even years later you're choking up. You have to kind of stop. You have to take a break or your eyes water or something or you just show some sort of facial expression that suggests a deeper emotion and that never happened. She stayed very stoic and very, you know, consistent just throughout the entire two hours, which lets me know, in my opinion, like, I don't think you could be the mother of a child

that went missing and you have no idea what happened to him. And now at this point, it's been, you know, seven years and you're just, you're assuming he's dead and not be able to prevent yourself from showing some sort of emotion because she could say, oh, I don't want to show emotion. We don't always have control over that. And she clearly is very much in control. So let's talk about what Terry did when she moved to California because she got herself into some trouble. In August of 2015, the person she was living with at the time, her roommate,

he called police and told them that Terry had stolen a handgun from a safe in his home. Terry was arrested and charged with grand theft. Her arraignment was scheduled for the following November, but when she was a no-show, she was again arrested and booked into the Yuba County Jail on July 4th, 2016. Terry would eventually go to trial for the handgun theft and be cleared after the jury claimed they felt that although Terry had taken the gun, she had not planned to keep it. She lives a charmed life, this one. On November 28, 2016, Terry's then-domestic partner, Joseph Cristobal, filed for a restraining order against her, telling KJW that he feared for his life and, quote, I don't even know what she's capable of, end quote. According to Christobal, Terry held a knife to his face and told him that something was going to happen to

him or his family. He was later granted a two-year restraining order against her. In December of 2016, Terry was arrested in Marin County for possession of a stolen vehicle. She was accused of taking the car without the owner's consent, but prosecutors ultimately felt they could not prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, and the charges were dropped. In 2017, an ex-boyfriend of Terry's named Sean Ray came forward, alleging he had been the target of a murder-for-hire plot orchestrated by Terry.

Now, this happened in the summer of 1990, 30 years before Kyron disappeared, and at the time, Terry was 20, Sean was 18, and he claims they'd ordered Chinese food and gone to a park in Roseburg to eat it. They'd been enjoying their food for about 15 minutes when a man with a gun came out of the bushes. And Sean says that Terry turned to him and said, he's here for you. Sean said the man didn't fire any shots, and he reported it to the police, breaking up with Terry soon after. In 2011, so a year after

Kyron went missing, Multnomah County investigators contacted Sean, asking about his 1990 allegations, and they told him that a prison inmate had confessed to taking part in the plot. Investigators also told him that the inmate had independently provided specific details that matched Sean's account, and he was later called to testify in front of the grand jury. Sean was. But once again, all of these grand jury proceedings are sealed. We don't know what happened. What I suspect happened is the inmate saw what was happening on TV because it got very wide national attention, saw Terry was involved, and was like, I know that lady.

She also hired me to kill someone and called the police hoping to get some sort of like deal or some sort of, you know, special privileges in jail or prison. And Sean, you know, wholeheartedly believes that that Terry tried to have him killed. I don't know why. And he could just be making it up, you know, honestly, because what's the motive? He never says. I'm sure he did tell the grand jury that, but he could be making it up, but I wouldn't be surprised. It wouldn't be like stunning to me if it was true. As of now, the case of Kyron Horman's disappearance remains unsolved. And in June of 2023, so just this past summer, well, just like two months ago, this was the 13th anniversary of Kyron's disappearance. And the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office released a statement saying that

Kyron's disappearance continued to have a profound impact on the community. The case is still open and active, and investigators are using advances in software, digital forensics, and geospatial technology to support and advance their work. A $50,000 reward is currently available for information leading to the resolution of Kyron's disappearance. And if anyone has any leads or tips or evidence at all, they should call the MCSO tip line at 1-503-988-0560. You can also send an email to mcso tipline at mcso.us or contact the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children at 1-800-THE-LOST or provide an online tip at the organization's Cyber Tip line. That is where we stand. What are your final thoughts?

So without going over everything we've covered over the series, my opinion is that Terry is somehow involved with this. And it's based on a lot of things. And that's why I'm saying I'm not going to regurgitate everything that we've covered over the series. But for me, like just the tip of the iceberg is the fact that if Kyron walked back into class that day, if what Terry had said happened, happened, then there would have been a teacher

or someone who would have seen him. And there would have been another opportunity throughout the day where this nefarious individual was able to get a hold of Kyron and do what they did, take him out of the school. And there's no evidence of that. There's no evidence of Kyron ever being alone at any other point during the day, during the school day where he could have been taken, where the teacher might've said, yeah, you know what? He was in here for a while. We went to lunch. He asked to go to the bathroom and then he was gone. And how would this person, this unknown suspect know that these kids were going to be left unattended? How would they walk through the school knowing that? And if they were a

janitor or a teacher or anything of that matter, what is their accountability for that time of day where they would have taken Kyron, put him somewhere. Nobody would have seen this person. There's just a lot of questions that don't really make sense. And as far as if there would be answers, I would think that everything I'm saying right now, law enforcement has already looked into, especially after what you've covered tonight. What makes the most sense based on what Terry has told us and what she hasn't told us is that Terry left with Kyron that day. And that's not only just pure speculation. There are other people who have said that was the case that they've seen, they seen Kyron leave with Terry.

So you have that. Um, and so it does appear that Terry's not being completely honest and more than likely she knows exactly what happened to Kyron as far as what we can do now. Um, I always am very cautious about this and I'll continue to be. As of right now, Kyron's missing. And although, however unlikely it may seem, because if Terry is responsible, she's clearly not going and taking care of Kyron at some place. So unless she gave him to someone else, it doesn't look good. We can say that, right?

I think that's fair, but i'm still holding out hope that terry who appears to have a really Really terrible set of history and she seems to have connections to certain criminals, right? I don't know how she gets access to these people Would it be the craziest thing in the world on my bingo card if I found out that down the road? Terry had given kyron to someone else who couldn't have children and sold them or whatever. I'm hoping that's the case. I'm hoping that's the case because I wouldn't put it past a person who has this type of criminal history.

But we got to figure it out. We got to find out. And that's why I'm glad you put the tip line in here. I think that law enforcement have a lot and they're hoping that something comes forward that may help them locate Kyron and they can really put a button on this case and charge Terry. Because at that point, if they find where Kyron is and he happens to be in that area where she was, reverse engineer it. There you go. That's your person, right? So I think they know they only get one shot at this. She's not going anywhere. And they're hoping for that one last piece of the puzzle so that when they go for it, it sticks.

But there does come that thing that you and I always talk about where it's like, how long is too long? How long is it too long to allow Desiree and Kane to have to watch the person responsible if she is walking around amongst everyone else before you say, hey, this is what we have. We would like to have more, but it's been a while now. We're thinking about taking the shot. What are your thoughts on it? And if they're okay with- Knowing that if it doesn't go through like Casey Anthony- That you can live with that. You can live with that. And I think at some point they would say,

hey, you know what? Let's do it. And we might get to that point. We'll see. But I also will say the longer they wait, if nothing else comes out, I think it does weaken your case at a trial because they're like, well, if you had all those decisions. But overall, I'm thinking of the family. I'm thinking of the family and I'm hoping that they take the case to court based on the fact that it would purely be a circumstantial evidence case. And at the same time, I believe it was a year after, that is when Kaylee Anthony went missing. And everyone watched as the prosecutors in that case shot their shot with a purely circumstantial case. And it didn't go well. So it almost seemed like maybe the police and the DA were kind of trigger shy to do that at that time. They called the Kaylee Anthony effect. So I think with Terry, there is only circumstantial evidence. In my opinion, as a juror, it would be enough for me to vote guilty, to be completely honest. I'm not usually, like, I don't usually go this strongly

on these cases. I'm usually somewhere in the middle. In some cases, I do. But that is my gut instinct about those cases. And I just don't see how it could have been anybody else but Terry. The question would be why and where is he? If what I suspect happened is true and she went to that island, I don't, I'm not saying the name of the island anymore because I know I keep saying it wrong. Save? Save? Save? Yeah, Save? Save? Whatever it is, that's why I keep saying the island. If she, me too. If she was on Save Island and Kyron is no longer alive, she put his body in the water there knowing that it would be swept out to the Pacific Ocean. She most likely had done her research. She most likely knew what to expect. And she most likely knew that he would never be found. And we all know that nobody, cases are very hard to try in court when you're trying to get somebody for murder. So, yeah, I mean, Casey Anthony got off and they had a body. So it's just like it's right near the house.

Yeah. Not far from the house. So it's like with stuff from the house. Yeah. On. I never get that what that jury was thinking. I can understand it. I can understand why the D.A. would be not understand why they found him not her not guilty but understand why you don't understand

why they found her not guilty right i understand why the prosecution in that case thought like we can work with this yeah we can make this work i don't know what that jury was thinking dude yeah well i mean this is that it could be part of the reason here and and i say we don't know everything behind closed doors we don't know if there were holes in the investigation or things that were done wrong. Cause I can tell you mistakes are made all the time. It's not, it's not, we're not robots. And they may be concerned that cause they're looking at this and they're, they're, they're putting the package together and investigators and prosecutors are looking at it from a defense perspective as well and saying, Hey, what are they going to attack here and if they feel like those angles are strong that may make them apprehensive as well so to where we are any final

words from you i think you just we kind of gave our final words i don't know what i'm saying but those are my final words i'm just i'm really upset about this case i can understand why this case is so why this was our most highly requested case i hope it really really hurts me because he didn't do anything wrong, obviously, and just to not even know where he is and have no closure and have no answers. And obviously, his parents are going to be devastated by this forever. And it's just really sad. And to not know the why, I mean, there is no why that would make sense, but it's just devastating. It's a really sad case. And I hope it's one day resolved. But I have a strong feeling that, like you said, Terry will take whatever information she knows to her grave. She's not stupid.

No, she hasn't said anything by now. She's not going to. This is going to take an outside thing. It's going to take the discovery of some piece of evidence that we're unaware of at this point. I don't even know if she would have confided in too many people. No, I don't think she would have confided in anybody, dude. That's what I'm saying. She ain't stupid. All right. This is the kind of person who literally on principle wouldn't even make a deathbed confession. Yeah, I agree with you. Because she's a freaking narcissist. I don't disagree. Well, we want to hear your comments, but this is the end of the series here. Obviously a lot of people have researched this case, have looked into it. You've seen other

podcasts and YouTube videos about it. Let us know what you think down below as far as our coverage on this case. And also, what do you think about some of the theories and some of the evidence and some of the facts that we've put forward? Where do you stand on this case? Do you think Terry's involved? Is the door still open for you that someone else may have had something to do with this? And Terry may just be a victim of being afraid that she could be implicated in something

and therefore making it worse on herself. We want to hear what you think. We know what we think. We've given you our thoughts. We will be back next week with a new case. Everyone stay safe out there and we will see you very soon. Bye.