Crime Weekly - S3 Ep145: Aliza Sherman | The Meeting That Ended in Murder (Part 1)

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

On a Sunday evening in March of 2013, 53 year old Aliza Sherman went to meet with her divorce lawyer in downtown Cleveland, just days before her long and bitter divorce was set to go to trial. She never made it inside. Instead, she was found stabbed to death on the sidewalk outside the office door. Her purse was still with her, her SUV was parked nearby, she was still wearing all of her jewelry. Nothing about it looked like a random act of violence, yet nothing about it made any sense. For years, Aliza’s murder lingered in that terrible space between mystery and suspicion, where answers feel close enough to touch, but never close enough to hold. But as time passed, the case began to expose something even more chilling than the attack itself. Little by little, the names and details surrounding two men emerged, two men Aliza should have been able to trust more than almost anyone in her life. One was tied to the home and family she had built. The other was tied to the legal fight that was supposed to help set her free. And in that realization lies the deepest horror of this case: that the people with the closest access to your life, your fears, your plans, and your vulnerabilities may not be protecting you at all. This story is not just about who killed Aliza Sherman. It is about what can hide beneath the surface for years. About betrayal wrapped in familiarity. About trust handed to the wrong people. And about the devastating possibility that the people standing in your inner circle may be the very same people who are quietly working against you.Try our coffee! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www.EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!2.  PocketHose - Text CW to 64000 to get a FREE Pocket Pivot and a 10 Pattern Sprayer with the purchase of ANY Copperhead Hose!3. https://www.Quince.com/CrimeWeekly - Get FREE shipping and 365-Day Returns!4. https://www.ThePetsTable.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY55 for 55% off your first box and 10% off your next two!

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming Ontario. On a Sunday evening, in March of 2013, 53-year-old Elisa Sherman went to meet with her divorce lawyer in downtown Cleveland, just days before her long and bitter divorce was set to go to trial. She never made it inside. Instead, she was found, stabbed to death on the sidewalk outside the office door. Her purse was still with her. Her SUV was parked nearby. She was still wearing all of her jewelry.

Nothing about it looked like a random act of her. violence, yet nothing about it made any sense. For years, Alisa's murder lingered in that terrible space between mystery and suspicion, where answers feel close enough to touch, but never close enough to hold. And as time passed, the case began to expose something even more chilling than the attack itself. Little by little, the names and details surrounding two men emerged. Two men Alisa should have been able to trust, more than almost anyone in her life. One was tied to the home and family she had built. the other was tied to the legal fight that was supposed to help set her free.

And in that realization lies the deepest horror of this case, that the people with the closest access to your life, your fears, your plans, and your vulnerabilities may not be protecting you at all. This story is not just about who killed Elisa Sherman. It is about what can hide beneath the surface for years. About betrayal, wrapped in familiarity, about trust handed to the wrong people, and about the devastating possibility that the people standing in your inner circle, may be the very same people who are quietly working against you.

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasser. And today we are talking about a new case that I have actually been interested in for quite a while. And I've always kind of gone back and forth about what I thought happened here. And recently, there have been new updates, arrests, things that are happening,

that are kind of turning everything on its head. So I'm very excited to dive into this case today to talk about Elisa to get Derek's point of view because there's so many cases I follow just in my regular life that I don't talk to Derek about because we have our own cases that we talk about. So I'm excited to finally bring this case to him and get his point of view and his perspective. So we are going to dive in if you're ready. Are you ready? I am ready.

And I love that we're covering a case that's a little bit more obscure. obviously the hardcore people out there may have already heard about it. We just did Elizabeth Smart. It's a case that everyone's familiar with. We want to switch it up. A little spoiler alert. For anybody going to CrimeCon, the case that you're working on for our live show there, going to be good.

Yeah, it's very good. So I'm going to say it's going to be good. I think it's going to be, that's when we're at our best, when we're bringing attention to a case you may have never heard of before. But no, I'm ready to go. This sounds like a fascinating case based on the trailer. And I'm looking forward to the journey with everybody. who else is going to be hearing it for the first time.

Yeah, there are some people who know about this case because I am with those people. Since this happened, it's been very much shrouded in mystery. And there's surveillance video attached to it. And you would have thought really early on in the case, like it should have been solved. Yeah. It should have been, you know, brought to light, but it wasn't. And like I said, recently there have been, you know, charges and arrests and things like that. But I still think that there's more to it.

And we're going to find out that the person who's kind of at the forefront right now was not the only person involved. And so the plot thickens, the mystery deepens. And I'm definitely looking forward to diving into this. So when people talk about Elisa Sherman, they don't start with the way that she died. They start with the way that she lived. And this is how the people closest to her wanted it to be. They talk about her kindness, the way she remembered everyone's favorite snack, the way she showed up for every milestone, every crisis, every ordinary moment in between. They talk about a woman who spent her life taking care of other people, lifting them up, making them feel safe, making them feel loved.

Elisa was the kind of person who left every room, every relationship, every life a little better than she found it. And maybe that's part of what makes what happened to her feel so impossible to understand. Throughout her life, Elisa was many things, a beloved daughter and sister, a loving wife and mother, a devoted nurse, and the best version of a friend that anyone could wish for. Elisa's parents, Albert and Doris Sin, were Holocaust survivors who fled Europe after losing their own parents and siblings during World War II. The couple settled on the east side of Cleveland, Ohio, and had three sons together before giving birth to their first and only daughter, Alisa. in September of 1959. Now, Elisa, from a very young age, was intelligent, precocious, and charming. She was often placed at the center of everyone's attention.

She was very special to her parents and her three older brothers who weren't resentful of the attention she received simply because Elisa was so incredibly kind-hearted and giving to everyone that she meant even as a child. Her brother, Ed, who was only 14 months older than Elisa, said, quote, she always, even as a little girl, always looked out for other people. She was the type of person that if she saw someone that was kind of having a down day, she'd go out of her way to make them feel better. If someone gave her a lollipop, she'd make sure that I got one. The best thing I can remember about her is that she was always out there trying to make someone feel better about themselves.

If they were feeling bad, she'd find a way to twist it and turn it positive. And when you walked away from Elisa, you felt a lot better than you did before you started. End quote. According to everyone who would know and love Elisa throughout her life, this was one of her mottoes to leave everyone and everything better than she found it. And she would one day tell her own daughter that the best exercise was bending down and picking someone up. This was the energy Elisa brought into parenting, friendship, and her work as a nurse. And from a very young age, nursing was in the cards for Elisa. She had a nurse Nancy doll when she was three. And even then, everyone realized that she was a natural born caretaker who always put others first. She always

put everyone before herself. And Elisa would eventually be accepted into Case Western Reserves Nursing Program. This is one of the oldest and most influential academic nursing programs in the United States. It's always been extremely respected, particularly in Cleveland's medical community. And it had long been a dream for Elisa to be a part of this nursing program, but at the time she couldn't afford it, so she continued living with her parents and instead completed a three-year program at the Huron School of Nursing. After graduating in 1981, Elisa took a job as a labor and delivery nurse at Mount Sinai Hospital in Cleveland's University Circle neighborhood.

Now, that hospital would close in the early 2000s, but it was around for a long time before that. It was founded in 1903 by Cleveland's Jewish community, and at the time, Jewish doctors were often facing discrimination. They were not allowed to work at most hospitals. They were denied admitting privileges at many hospitals. And Jewish patients at that time also felt sometimes unwelcome or uncomfortable receiving care in institutions that were openly exclusionary. So Mount Sinai was kind of created to answer both of these problems, to allow a place for Jewish doctors to practice and allow a place for Jewish patients to go where they felt welcome and that

they were going to be taken care of. Now, by the late 1970s and 1980s, Mount Sinai became known for obstetrics and fertility medicine and also for caring for low-income patients. The hospital played a huge role in the early development of in vitro fertilization in the state of Ohio. Dr. James Goldfarb helped establish the hospital's first IVF program, which delivered Ohio's first baby conceived through IVF in 1983. And at that time, Dr. Goldfarb was working at Mount Sinai. He was just at the start of what would end up being a groundbreaking career. He helped deliver this baby, and Elisa was right there working alongside of him.

As most people who knew Elisa, Dr. Goldfarb described her in the same way. Unbelievably kind, considerate, she noticed the small things. Elisa had an affinity for Diet Coke and chocolate, but Dr. Goldfarb's weakness was Planter's peanuts. Do you remember the planters' peanuts? They came in like the jar, the tall jar. I still eat planters. There's still a thing, the peanuts. They used to be in a glass jar.

They used to be in a glass jar. Yeah, now everything's in plastic or, you know, whatever else is going to give us cancer. They still come in plastic, yeah. Now the ones that you eat, like the Spanish planters peanuts. Spanish planters peanuts are hard things. They have like the skin on them, yeah. Like Spanish peanuts, they have the skin on them still. They're really good.

I like to put them on ice cream sundaes. But if you just get like the regular old peanuts, they still come in like a jar, a tall jar, but it's plastic now. used to be glass. I remember my mom used to have them and I'd always clean them out and like put things in them even like crayons or earrings. Are you a plain peanuts person or honey roasted? I love all peanuts. And they don't just go from plain to honey roasted. They got to be on a shirt. They got like ranch peanuts now. They got jalapeno peanuts. Salt and vinegar. And peanuts probably aren't good for you. You don't think so? I think so. I feel like they're probably not. Like of all

the nuts, they're probably not the best nuts for you. I'm dude. Everything's not good for us these days. I also, when you mentioned chocolate and Diet Coke, I mean, I'm not a. I'm not a big Diet Coke person, but chocolate all day long. I know. I don't like it. I don't like diet. I don't like diet soda. I don't like diet soda. I don't like diet soda. I know we're getting off the track here, but very impressive what you're talking about here as far as being part of this and being in the room when this happened. It's such a monumental moment as far as science is concerned and the advancements. Considering where we are today, this is kind of like where it started, right? This is the start of where this stuff started going on with the IVF and all that. Yeah. And you have Dr. James Goldfarb who, you know, for anybody who's familiar, because I had to look up obviously his. his resume and how influential he was in this field. And you have somebody like Dr. James Goldfarb who worked very closely with Aliza and he said, you know, he loved his planters peanuts and she would always bring him in a new jar when she saw that he was getting low on them so that he never had to be without them. But not only that, you could tell outside of the peanuts, Dr. Goldfarb had a deep respect for

Elisa, one medical professional to another. And after her death, he said, quote, there's nobody that I've worked with in any of my career that I respect more than her. She deserves respect, that's for sure. And she's the last person who deserves what happened to her. You know, the patients knew that she cared about them and she really did. It wasn't an act with her. She really cared about people. And she remembered everybody.

You know, people came back the second time. She would remember what happened the first time. She was just the ideal person to be working with these stressed patients, end quote. I love that we always open these shows with giving a little bit of a breakdown of the past with the victims because it is so easy to get caught up on what they're known for now based on what they went through usually being the victim of a crime. And we kind of talked about it with Elizabeth last week where you can become defined by those moments where there's so much more to these people prior to what happened to them. And I love that we always open with that because even though this may not be relatable to everybody, not everyone has been part of something so cool, but to understand that these were human beings. that were respected and loved by others. So it's not just what happened to them.

It's how it affected everybody around them. They had these full lives. Like they did things, they saw things. They had dreams and they reached some of those dreams and aspirations. And some they weren't able to. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

You know, it's not just the act. It's how it impacts everybody. There's this linear path that this the victim is on. And they have so many dreams and aspirations. And so you're not only taking their life, but you're taking all of that from them. And it's people around them, yeah. Yep, yep, people around them, absolutely.

So Elisa, when we talk about she really cared about our patients, this is what everybody, and there was tons of people. I'll talk about it later, but at her funeral, it was standing room only. The place was packed. And a lot of her previous patients that she had worked with at Mount Sinai and then later at Cleveland Clinic, they said, yeah, the same thing. She never forgot who we were. We could come back years later and she would remember the smallest things of

about us and she genuinely cared and you could tell that and you could feel it. And it was such a refreshing feeling, especially, you know, in the medical community, sometimes you feel like you're just another number. And yeah, you're getting what you came there for. You know, you're getting a treatment and you're getting help, but you don't feel as if they, they don't, not all doctors and nurses have the best bad side manner all the time is what I'm saying. Accurate. But when you come across one that does, you remember that and you appreciate it because most of these people who are going to hospitals and clinics are in the most stressful times of their lives. It's unknown. You know, am I going to be able to have this child that I've been wanting to have for years and have

been trying so hard to have? Am I going to be able to be cured from whatever is ailing me? Are they going to find something worse? So they're in the lowest, worst parts of their lives. And for a of these medical professionals, this is just, you know, every day for them. Yeah. Yeah. So Elisa really slowed it down and made people feel seen and cared about. And then on November 11, 1982, Elisa married Sanford Sherman, a man who was training to become an ophthalmologist. Now, both Sanford and Alisa were starting their careers in health care, and they could have met through mutual friends or even in Cleveland's Jewish community. Not a lot of information is available in regards to how they connected, but based on statements from those who knew them as a couple,

they were never very compatible. One of Elisa's brothers, Harry, said that he didn't feel you could find two people who were more mismatched, and he felt that Sanford never appreciated what he had in Elisa. Sanford Sherman would finish his residency in 1986, and he pretty much immediately opened his own practice located in the Severance Medical Building in Cleveland Heights. And it's so funny because when I was putting all of this together, as I said, I followed this case for a few years. But the severance medical building for some reason hadn't stuck with me. And I know, did you watch that show Severance too?

Of course. Yeah. So it just had this like kind of eerie feeling. Ready for the next season. Yeah. When I was doing it, I was like the severance medical building, you know, it kind of gave a darker, more eerie overshadowed to this case than they'd already had. But the Sherman's began building their life on Penhurst Drive in Beechwood, which is an affluent suburb known to have one of the largest Jewish populations in the Midwest outside of Chicago. And at this point, Alisa sort of stepped back from her professional aspirations to become a stay-at-home mother to their four children.

Joshua, Jason, Jeremy, and Jennifer, all J-names. My mom named us all S-names, and I know she regretted that. I know she really regretted that. I struggle with Tenly and Peyton. I constantly, I don't know what it is, but I'm constantly mixing up their names. So I can't imagine if they both started with the same letter. Yeah, my mom used to yell. Whenever she was yelling at any one of us, for some reason,

she'd always go through all the other names before getting to our actual name. And it kind of gave us a way to, I guess, break the tension of being yelled at. So it was something we used. So she's got four children, three sons and one daughter, kind of like her family. Right. Her parents had three sons and then one daughter. They were not, the brothers in this case are not the oldest with the daughter being the youngest. The youngest of this four children group is Jeremy. And Jennifer was older than I think two of her brothers. But yeah, it's not a bad thing that Elisa stopped working as a nurse to raise her children because she really loved being a mother. You know, as a nurse, Elisa was known to be. dedicated, warm, a natural born caretaker. She put all of this and so much more into her role as a mother. She loved her children. She loved being with her children, genuinely enjoyed their company, genuinely enjoyed raising them. And she considered them to be her greatest accomplishment in life.

And like I said, this is from somebody who worked on groundbreaking science with IVF early on in her career, who was, you know, present at the hospital where the first IVF baby was delivered. And she still, looked back at the end of her life because she was posting these things on Facebook, that her four children were the greatest accomplishment of her life. Her daughter, Jennifer, said that her mother was superwoman, and Elisa did it all with a smile on her face. She was there for every event, every project, birthday parties, when her kids were sick, when they had something to celebrate,

and she brought an element of creativity and humor to every second of motherhood. Jennifer said, quote, I think she was one of the few people I've come across on this earth that genuinely did things, out of the goodness of her heart with zero expectations of anything in return. End quote. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor.

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To get your 20% off, like I'm going to, by using our own code, text weekly to 64,000. That's weekly to 64,000. Once again, text weekly to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply, see terms for details. So I want to talk more about Elisa and her only daughter, Jennifer, because Jennifer's going to become the loudest voice in the aftermath. of Elisa's death. So Elisa and Jennifer were very close. They were best friends.

And Jennifer said this closeness had started from birth. They did everything together, taking walks outside because Elisa was a big advocate in getting out in the sun. They went shopping, got their nails done, went to lunch, and they spent time showing each other love and building each other up. Jennifer said that some of her favorite moments was when she was younger and her mother would lay in bed with her at night and tell her stories about being a nurse, which led to conversations about life and what it meant to be a person in life and to be a good person

in life. Jennifer said, quote, she was my mother, but she was so much more than that, you know, she was truly my soulmate. And I think she knew me better than I knew myself for sure. And she just, she's my best friend in the whole world. She was my role model. I always looked at her like she was my hero. And she inspired me in my life in many ways. So after Jennifer moved out of the house and went up to college, she and Elisa still stayed in constant contact. They talked daily, sometimes five to ten times a day. They never went to bed without saying good night to each other. And it was because of her mother that Jennifer decided to become a nurse. And she worked for four years in the cardiac intensive unit at Cleveland Clinic before deciding to go back to school to become a nurse

practitioner, which was something Elisa had always wanted to do. But she told Jennifer that her time had passed for that. She was too old and tired for that now, so she would just support and encourage her daughter in achieving her dreams. And all of Elisa's children felt like she was the best mother ever. Her son Jason would say, quote, my mom was just the sort of person that did everything for us. She took us to school every day. She picked us up from school every day. She cleaned the house. She cooked every meal. She went to all our sporting events and concerts and all of those things, literally just anything you needed, anyone needed, she would be there. End quote. Elisa's brothers remembered how the Sherman House was the focal gathering point for all the kids' friends.

And Jason said he would have six or seven friends over every Saturday, and his mother would make sure she bought and prepared all of their favorite foods because what made Elisa happy was to make other people happy, and she loved to see the joy on his friend's faces when they came in and they saw all their favorite treats spread out on the table. But it seems that the one person Elisa could not make happy was her own husband, Sanford Sherman. Their son, Jason, said that his parents never got along. They argued a lot, and he has memories of them arguing from when he was very young.

Karen Chait, who had lived across the street from the Shermans for 28 years, said that at first things were pretty normal. Sanford was running his own practice and working. He seemed friendly enough. But then as the years progressed, his life changed, along with his moods and behaviors. His whole demeanor changed. Karen said that from very early on, she realized Elisa was. was an abused wife. She said, quote, I could rattle off 20 different examples of things that he did

over the years. He was abusive in every possible way. I was around when the police came over at their house. The police were there so frequently. It was just terrible. Even the kids would call the police. You know, I think there was oftentimes, it was the children themselves who called the police because of the screaming and abuse in the family. End quote. And it is true because since late 2000, 22 incidents associated with the Sherman's address were reported to the Beachwood. police and most involved claims of domestic disturbance. Several reports noted heated arguments between the couple. The police were summoned to the household concerns for the welfare of the household pets because of Sanford's actions. And one police report claims that one of Sanford

and Alisa's sons locked himself in his bedroom as a result of his parents fighting, which is so sad because you hear the kids talk about their mother and how she tried so hard to make their life's wholesome and full and happy and, you know, have normal childhoods. And then you hear this other side of it. And there's, you know, obviously you don't know about somebody's relationship unless you're behind closed doors in that house with them, in that relationship. But based on how everyone described Elisa and how her own children described Elisa, you kind of know she didn't want that fighting. So if she was taking part in it and if it was happening, it was probably because, you know, it got to that level constantly where she felt like she just couldn't get away from it, where, you know, she had to fight back at times, even though that wouldn't have been her nature to take part in it because she wouldn't have wanted the kids to hear it.

She wouldn't have wanted, you know, this peaceful life that she was trying to build for them shattered by the worst thing for a kid, which is to hear their parents screaming at each other and arguing. Yeah. And it's unfortunately relatable to a certain degree where we've talked. about it before. Personally, seeing people on the outside, seeing the exterior, everything looks good. And then 2 o'clock in the morning, I'm getting a call for a domestic violence incident. And I respond over there. And sure enough, it's the same people I saw to eat dinner earlier in the night. And I thought, oh, well, what a nice family. And then now the guy's beaten on his wife or whatever. And it's unfortunate. And what's really, really unfortunate is that it's more common

than you think. Yeah. And even if you try everything that you can to, you know, be a good parent, if your relationship with your spouse isn't right, then that's going to bleed over and affect them. Yeah. So Elisa's friend, Jen Lash, said that they all knew the trauma Elisa was living through every single day. And it seemed like these constant arguments were always around money or like Sanford trying to control the money. Sanford trying to control Elisa. And although the police were called, Elisa never pressed charges. And people who knew her believe it was because she was too scared.

Elisa's brother Harry claimed that Sanford was extremely mean-spirited, and it went beyond anything that they could have imagined because he and his siblings didn't grow up seeing some of the things that their sister Elisa had to experience. And it seemed that Elisa did give Sanford a lot of chances to make changes, to get better, and Dr. James Goldfarb believes this came from a key part of her personality. She was a little bit naive. She was very trusting. She was the least cynical person he had ever met. Goldfarb said that Elisa could never be. believe that people were bad or that they would intentionally hurt others. She could never believe that people weren't like her. And I think once again, this is a constant thing we're seeing

in relationships when people get into relationships with very controlling people or people who are malicious. If they themselves are not malicious, it's almost like they don't believe that people can be. They're like, oh, they make excuses for them. Like, he had a bad childhood or he had a bad day because they can't believe that somebody would just be mean, malicious, try to hurt somebody that they claim to care about. But we have come to find that that does happen. People are like that. Some people are just bad and they want to control people and hurt them and they want them to do

what they want. And when they don't do what they want, they lash out and they try to punish them. So we know that that exists. I also think that keeping the marriage going had a lot to do with the age old staying together for the kids because on June 20th, 2011, Elisa Sherman finally filed for divorce from her husband of 30 years. And at that time, things in the Sherman's lives had changed. Most of their kids were grown and out of the house, leaving only their youngest, Jeremy, who was 17 years old.

So Jeremy was 17. He's going to be 18 soon. He's going to be going to college, like his brothers and his sister. He's not going to be living in the house anymore. So it was like, you know, Elisa kind of waited until she probably wanted to wait until they were all. of the house, but there was probably something that happened or the last straw where she was like, all right, you know, Jeremy 17, he's going to school soon. I can't wait anymore. Now also at this point, Sanford Sherman had shut down his ophthalmology practice and he had retired in 2004. He had

started working from home as a day trader and Elisa returned to the workforce. Dr. James Goldfarb had left Mount Sinai when it closed in 2000 and he began working at the Cleveland Clinic. So when Elisa was looking for a job, he hired her immediately as a fertility nurse. Elisa quickly built a reputation there at Cleveland Clinic as someone who genuinely cared about her patients. Again, they all described her as a constant, warm, and compassionate presence in a time when they were scared and their futures were uncertain. They remembered that Elisa held their hands through their most difficult times, and she

would tell them that the things that started out the hardest usually ended up being the best. At the time that she filed for divorce, Elisa went to Stafford and Stafford. This was a firm that specialized in divorce and family law, and she initially hired one of the partners, Joseph Stafford, to represent her. And she'd hired Stafford on the advice of a friend who had also gone through a divorce because he was known to be a shark. And Elisa knew that fighting her husband Sanford in court would require someone like that. The day that Sanford had received the divorce papers, apparently and reportedly, he was a mess. He'd called an old friend, Larry Shanker. And Larry at that time was a retired policeman who had met Sanford.

at the Jewish community center where they both worked out. He eventually became very close to Sanford and his family. He would go to the Sherman home. He would be invited to weddings and bar mitzvahs. He and Sanford, who he called Sandy, they would work out together. They took walks together every day when the weather was nice, and they both did day trading so they would chat about stocks, give each other tips, you know. Now that day that Sanford was served with divorce papers, he called Larry Shanker and asked him to come over to the house. He said he didn't want to be alone. he got there around 5 p.m. They talked, they ordered a pizza, they ate the pizza, and then Larry left around 11 or 1130 p.m. But after that night, Larry Shanker ceased to have any and all contact

with Sanford Sherman, even though they'd been friends for 22 years. Now, Larry Schenger is going to be deposed in a legal action that's going to happen after Elisa is murdered. And we're going to talk about that in more detail in the next episode. Yeah, and you already raised the red flag for me there because as soon as you put in there, a police officer, I'm like, okay, that's always an area of concern for me because it's kind of like a wolf that's been let into the hen house, right? They have inside information. There you go. Yeah. They have an understanding of how the mind works in law enforcement, some of the practices and techniques that we utilize. And if used for not so good things, they can take advantage of that. We don't have a lot of advantages.

as it is, now you have someone who has insight into how we operate, not a good recipe when it comes to solving the case. So I don't write every name down that you give me, but there are some names when you say them, even if there may be not a big part of the story yet, where they, I just like, hmm, let me put them on the side. And so Larry Shanker, Sanford's friend, on my list with a little asterisk next to it. Larry Shanker's important, write his name down. And remember, I said that there was all these domestic incidences that happened going forward from 2000 and one of those instances happened to be an argument that Alisa and Sanford had because Sanford had, I guess, started hanging out with a friend named Larry again that Alisa wasn't, you know, a super fan of, I guess, for whatever reason. And we're going to see that once again, Larry and Sanford, friends for 22 years. All right. And during the deposition, they're asking Larry like, well, how do you know Sanford? And he starts off, you know, how they go.

Well, I know I'm from the JCC. You know, and they're like, well, what did you do? Like how close were you? Oh, well, you know, we talked to each other and we worked out. And sometimes we'd be in the steam room together and we talk to each other. And then as the deposition goes on, you find out that, well, no, Larry was at Sanford's house all the time. He knew his wife. He knew his kids, vice versa. Sanford knew Larry's wife and kids. They'd get each other's kids presents. they would, you know, hang out together all the time. They, all summer, every single day.

They're going on long walks together every single day. And it's like you tried to make it seem like you just saw each other at the gym every once in a while. But as it turns out, you were pretty tight. Yeah, yeah, whenever I hear the cops, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the story, oh, my friend's a cop. And not all cops are good cops. And a lot of them can give advice to their friends behind closed doors to allow them to circumvent

Or maybe on a long walk, yeah. Yeah, I can't tell you how often that has happened where I end up finding that there's a friend of a friend who's giving them loopholes to certain things. Or just, you know, like, this is how I would do this or this is how you might get away with this, yeah. I had an incident. And it's a little off the beaten path here, but it's a good story. I own rental property. And I had an incident where we had a tenant who was smoking weed in the apartment and the other tenants were complaining. and the reason the tenants were scared was because one of the people they were always smoking with was a cop.

So imagine I'm a narcotics detective at this point. So I sat on the house and when the cop came out, he was from a different agency close by. Didn't have anything on him, but it was an interesting conversation and he smelled like weed. And I'm like, dude, do yourself a favor, never show up here again. And that was the last time I saw him. The cop guy? The cop. He was actively a cop.

He was actively a police officer. He didn't have anything on him. And, you know, it was a, let's just say it was a colleague to colleague conversation. I know what you're doing. If I see you over here again, your hands are going to be on the hood of my car. So choose wisely. That was the last time I ever saw him. Well, Larry was a retired cop, which I almost feel like makes it worse.

Because any like sort of modicum of, hey, I'm actively doing this job would kind of disappear at that point. or, you know, depending on the person, I guess. I'm with you there. I'm with you there. But it's even active. But no, you're right. Once they're removed from it, now it's like, hey. It's like fair game.

I'm no longer a cop. Yeah, I'm not a cop anymore. So technically, I'm not, you know, I'm just talking one civilian to another. Yeah. So Larry says he goes over to Sanford's house. Sanford calls him. He's like, Elisa served me with divorce papers. I'm upset.

I don't want to be alone. Come over. And Larry's like, all right, he gets there on 5, 5, 5.30. They order a pizza. They eat the pizza. He leaves around 11, 11.30. And then he tells the lawyers in deposition, I ceased any and all contact after that. Now, that's weird. So obviously they're going to ask Larry, what caused you to completely ghost someone that you'd been pretty close friends with for over two decades? And Larry said that he felt Sanford had been on unraveling for a few years by that point.

And the way Sanford behaved that night was the final straw for Larry. Larry said that over the previous two years, there had been constant arguing between Sanford and Alisa. And Sanford would, you know, talk to Larry about this daily, sometimes several times a day. And it got to the point where Larry felt that Sanford was complaining about Elisa more than he was talking to Larry about anything else. Larry said, quote, he would always complain that she'd spend money on clothing for himself, the children, bought his daughter a car, and he was upset about that. She didn't need a new car just on a daily level and it would just keep going. end quote. And I think we all kind of know somebody like that where, you know, they're going

through relationship problems and it gets so bad that at some point it feels like that's all they can talk about. They're fixated on it. And, and you understand as a human that it's probably not healthy to be this fixate. So it's like, get a divorce, man, right? Like, do something about it. Get help, you know, go to therapy or get a divorce because I'm sick of hearing about this. It's like all you can talk about. It's your entire identity at this point. Now, Larry said that Sanford had been talking about divorcing Elisa for at least three years. So by the time Elisa served Sanford with divorce papers, Sanford had been talking about

divorcing her for at least three years. And it was just this constant thing where Sanford would complain about Elisa, say he wanted to leave her, and he would repeat himself over and over again. So eventually, Larry spoke to Sanford's brother about what he called. Sandy's mental condition. Larry said, quote, Sandy needed help. Sandy needed some kind of counseling help for this marriage and his brother was trying to convince Sandy of the same. He was rampant. He kept repeating the same thing day after day, seeking attorneys, the domestic problems, the fighting going on. End quote. Now this conversation with Sanford's brother

had happened about a year and a half before Alisa filed for divorce. And so when Larry went over to Sanford's house that day, that Sanford got the divorce papers, he said his old friend was very angry. He was enraged because he'd been planning to file for divorce, but Alisa had beaten him to the punch. And he was saying things over and over again that disturbed Larry. Sanford kept repeating things like, fuck you bitch, and he couldn't sit down. He kept picking things up and putting them back down. And he kept repeating that she wasn't going to get the money. Now, based on how Sanford was acting that night and how he'd been acting the last few years, Larry decided he didn't want to have any part and whatever was going on with the divorce, whatever was going on with Sanford.

And when he left the house, he never went back and he stopped answering Sanford's calls. So Larry Schengert is going to come back into play during this case because you already nailed it. He is an important person. But what you need to know now is that Sanford Sherman was not going to make this divorce process an easy one. Yeah, well, let's be honest. What divorce is simple, right? Believe it or not, they exist. I mean, we don't hear about them.

Yeah, we don't. Of course not. We don't hear about them because they're uneventful, but they do exist. There's people who are like, yeah, hey, this hasn't worked out for 30 years. Let's just go our separate ways. Now, normally with divorce, it's a horror story and it's usually not like, oh, I just went through a divorce. It was a really great experience. I would strongly recommend it.

Now, it's the opposite. But as you were saying a couple minutes ago, sometimes staying together and just trying to make it work only makes things worse. And you just got to pull off the band-aid. So you know you're going to go through it at some point, waiting. longer to do it doesn't necessarily equate to an easier process, even when the kids are removed from the equation. So no shock here, especially based on what you've talked about already between Sanford and Elisa, not a surprise here that it was going to be difficult during the divorce. And also not surprised that Larry is going to become a critical part of this.

Let me ask you a question based on, so Larry says Sanford's been talking about divorcing Elisa for three years before Elisa even files the papers. And then when he gets, you know, the paperwork and Sanford has Larry come over, what does he keep saying over and over again? That she beat him to the punch. Well, she's not going to get the money. She's not going to get the money, yeah. So that's another reason I feel like. So Elisa may be staying because she doesn't want to get divorced while the kids are still around.

Sanford may be staying because what do they say, it's cheaper to keep her kind of thing. Yeah, no, that's definitely his thought process. He just told you what his thought process was. He wanted to maybe get the divorce, but he didn't. want to go through the process of giving her half of everything. So he was trying to, you know, avoid that. But obviously now we're her going first, he's probably initially thinking, wow, this gives her a stronger case. She's going to get even more money. But when we're talking about it in the context of why we're here today and we know that Elise is no longer with us,

having someone make a statement like this, she's not going to get the money. That right there initially sounds like a motive. Yeah, could mean a lot of things. All right. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by pocket hose, the world's number one expandable hose. Okay, I have to ask, do you have one of those old school hoses that somehow manages to kink every five seconds? I definitely did. I have to tell you, the pocket hose is awesome. I got it in the mail.

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One more time, CW to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details. All right. So on June 29, 2011, less than two weeks after the divorce was filed, Alisa was communicating with her lawyer, Joseph Stafford. Elisa said that there were household bills that were going to be due on the first of the month. She said that Sanford had not provided anything to the household or to the children since he had been served.

with the divorce papers. She wrote that Sanford had asked Trout to coffee the night before, to talk like mature adults about how they could split the bills. And she said, quote, he is still pushing for counseling. And if that doesn't work, get a mediator in a perfect world that would be great and this quick. But he has hidden all finances. I don't know what we have accumulated over the years. And I feel like he is up to something shady. His mood swing from angry and mean to sweet, accommodating, encouraging me to drop all this. and give our marriage a chance. If I had 1% hope that something could improve,

I would agree to the counseling, but I know this is all an act to mess with my head, or he is bipolar, which I do suspect anyway. He sent me another picture yesterday from way back, messing with my head about how happy we were and still could be. Funny, I don't remember that, don't feel that, and it is disturbing to find these pictures on my bed.

I did not meet with him, end quote. So we've got some weird dynamics happening here. mental Olympics going on here. Yeah. And obviously, like hearing from Larry, Sanford's been wanting a divorce for three years before Elie even files the paperwork. And now Sanford's saying, hey, let's try counseling and let's go through a mediator. You know, he doesn't want to go through a real trial with, you know, actual lawyers

because then there's more of a chance in his head that the assets will be split 50-50, as opposed to a mediator where he might be able to convince his wife. like, hey, we'll do this quick and peaceful. You're just going to have to, you know, make agreements and concessions that maybe you don't want to make when it comes to finances. And anybody who might be saying, and it's okay if you are, oh, well, it looks like he's making an effort and she's just kind of closed off to the idea of making this work. Well, you have to remember what Stephanie told us. They were married for 30 years. 30 years. Elisa knows Sanford better than any of us. And I have to imagine that this isn't her first rodeo. There were probably many occasions where she was ready to file and he was like,

don't. And then they play these mental gymnastics over a period of time. And she's seen this act before. This is not the first time this game has been played. And so when you finally make that decision to go to a lawyer and actually final, that's a really difficult choice to make. And if you get to that point, you're comfortable with that decision and you're not going to go back on it. So yes, optically, it may look like he's trying to rekindle things. but rightfully so, Elisa sees through it and she knows exactly what's going on here and she knows it's not

for the love of the relationship it's more whatever financial gain he might get from it. She's not stupid. So, you know, and again, it's okay to have a differing opinion if you're hearing this,

you may be thinking, oh, poor Samford, he's trying. I don't think anyone's thinking that because anybody who's been through a divorce with someone like this. Stephanie, we had people say we were too mean

on BTK. Oh, come on. Yeah, like one person. Come on. I think that was a troll. Come on. There's going to be, a pocket of people. I'm not saying the majority, not even saying a minority of people.

Just a, you know, a couple people may go, oh, oh, that, you know, I thought the picture was a nice touch. Think about it. 30 years. She has plenty of experiences and data to go off of. He's had 30 years to show her that he's making a concerted effort to actually, like, be an engaged part of this relationship and not, you know, be fighting and arguing with her. Remember. Always goes back to the same thing. The neighbor said, yeah, they really haven't had a good marriage. maybe the first few years, but then Sanford changed. His personality changed. Something was going on there.

The kids said, even when we were young, they were fighting. So this is not something that just all of a sudden, Elisa woke up one day and was like, I want a different life. You know, this is something that she's probably, they fought about. He's like, I'll get better. We'll go to therapy. Everything will be fine. And then it's the same old pattern over and over again.

Right. Right. Now, this is also weird because Elisa suggests in the email that although Sanford was supposed to vacate the home within seven days of the divorce being filed, he had not left. And so they were still living together, which is why he's able to kind of leave pictures on the bed and, you know, be creepy and weird. And this living arrangement would go on for the next two years. So at the time that she's murdered, Sanford and Elisa are still living together, which has got to be torture, absolute torture. So by December of 2011, everything was getting worse. And Sanford had used the divorce

proceedings to place further financial strain on Alisa. Sanford had gone to the bank on December 22nd and had frozen accounts connected to their children and Alisa's mother. So Elisa wrote an email to her lawyer saying, quote, I would like the accounts unrestrained. And if there is a legal harassing activity sanctions to be brought upon the plaintiff, his attorney and the bank employees, this has caused so much duress for my children and my mother. I do not want him to get away with another episode of emotional cruelty and control. End quote. So it seemed like Elisa was suggesting that Sanford, not only Sanford, but his attorney and the bank employees had done something that wasn't totally legit because there had been accounts where she'd been connected to them. So she had been connected to the children's accounts as the, you know, she was like a custody account.

And then she was on her mother's bank account. But when the divorce started on her own lawyer's, you know, advice, Elisa had told her children and her mother, hey, take the money out of. of these accounts and put them in your own account or because the divorce, these will probably get frozen. They'll be considered my assets because I'm on them. So put them in your own accounts that do not have my name on them at all. And Sanford was still able to go to the bank and have those accounts frozen even though Alisa's name was not on them. And I also find that to be a little odd. Yeah. Yeah. I even know that was possible. I don't think it's supposed to be because technically in the divorce, anything in Alisa's name or Sanford's name would be considered

community, marital property. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He might have knew someone at the bank and not knew the specifics of the situation and said, oh, this is just Sanford coming in here to get something done for his wife. It may have been under false pretenses, which is, by the way, a crime. So that's a different can of worms. But if you go in there and you disclose information that's inaccurate to obtain or move money, that you could be charged with an offense. And that's basically what Elisa was saying. She said she wants to go over after everybody at this point.

She's like, we specifically had these accounts changed over so my name wasn't on them. And these people's lives wouldn't be disrupted because her kids, her three oldest kids are all out of the house in college. So they got their own bills to pay their own rent. And then Jeremy's the youngest. He's still at home. But he's trying to buy a car. They went to the dealership. His account was frozen.

So he can't even buy a car at this point. And it's financial control. We've seen this in these kinds of divorces and these kinds of cases before where Sanford feels like he's losing control, not just of the finances because it's not about the money. It's about control and to make sure everybody's doing what he wants them to do. And now he feels like that's out of his purview. So he's freezing the account. So they kind of have to go to him for something, you know, like they still need him and he still is able to pull the strings. Not the first time we've heard a story like this.

Different names. Yeah. Similar scenario. So when the divorce was filed, Elisa was making about $60,000 a year because she was working as a fertility nurse. And Sanford claimed he was making $25,000 a year as a day trader. Yeah. I had a feeling this was going to come up. I'll wait, but I have some insight on this.

But yeah, go for it. Remember that Elisa had just kind of gotten back into the workforce. And there is a lot of evidence. and there's a number of financial accounts and investments that Sanford had used to place a significant amount of money he'd made over 18 years of running his own medical practice. So he's making a ton of money running his own ophthalmology practice. And not only that, but yeah, he'd become a day trader, but don't let him make you think that he's making $25,000 a year day trading because according to the actual accounts, because Elisa doesn't know at this point. He's always controlled the money. But now it's divorce time.

So we're going to start getting evidence and proof. And through the divorce, you're going to have to have Sanford sending you, you know, details of the bank accounts and things like that. And she's going to see, well, he actually made a pretty good amount of money doing this day trading thing. Where is that money? When you said it earlier about him dabbling and day trading, you don't necessarily have to be a day trader to do this. And this is not like some secret information. I'm sure many of you guys already know this. when you get to a certain level, you're making a lot of money. Many will invest their money into

stocks. And part of that reason, Elon Musk is a great example. A lot of his money is in the market. So technically, it's not liquid. It's not liquid. So there's a tax strategy that goes into effect there. So when he goes to buy something, he actually takes a loan out against his his value, right? as far as what his, whatever, his assets that are in the market and basically his net worth, right? They're able to calculate that based on the stock market. But it's not actually money because the market changes every second. So being a day trader and having an even higher understanding of that than just someone who's using financial advisors to invest for them as a tax strategy, it could also be used here where

he's keeping a small amount of money, let's say, $25,000. That's actually exactly what When in reality For the day-to-day bills and stuff like that I'm only making 25 grand But in reality he's making $225 grand But the other $200 or more

is tied up in the market And therefore it's not realized assets So he can go in there and say Nope genuinely I only make $25,000 a month And technically That's all I'm showing is income That's all I'm showing

So that's all she's entitled to Oh that other half a million She's making more than me now so she needs to pay me. Right. So it's usually used, like I said, for tax purposes, but it can also be used in this light where if you can minimize what you're making,

the argument at court would be, oh, your honor, I'm only making $10 an hour here. Technically, when you break it down. So that's all she's going to get, sorry. I can barely survive myself. Yeah. Not realizing that once she gets those disclosures,

she's going to be entitled to that money in those investments as well. They're not cut off from what she's owed. And I've actually learned a lot about this in the past few weeks because I've been in the Epstein files and I see things happening and I have no idea what they mean, right? Like stocks and bonds and trusts and all of these different ways that very, very wealthy people move their money around and hide it. And so I had no idea what I was looking at. And I had to call my financial advisor and basically quiz him about what these things mean. And he's telling me all this stuff.

And I'm like, what? Yeah. Really? Yeah. That's possible? And he's like, yeah, if you got enough money, man, anything's possible. And I'm like, wow, that's any, and as you said, Sanford doesn't need a financial advisor at this point because he's learned the ins and outs. He's not a dumb guy.

No, no, he's not. He might be a lot of things, but he's not stupid. And so he knows what he's doing. Clearly, when he picks up a book, he can understand what he's learning and he's able to apply whatever skills he's obtained through his research. And, yeah, when I saw the 25K, some people go overboard, even for tax purposes, where they're, making a million dollars a year, but they're only telling the IRS they're making $25,000 a month. And the IRS flags them and they get hammered. So there is a fine line there between being too aggressive and trying to hide all your money.

And that's how you get caught up. That's how, you know. Well, he would have done that also thinking, knowing in some way a divorce was coming, whether he would eventually bring it or she would eventually bring it. We know that for several years leading up to him being served a divorce papers, Sanford was telling people he wanted to get divorced, but he couldn't do it while he was showing all this income. So he had to kind of... It's a strategy.

Yeah, it's a strategy. Like most things. Lower his footprint, lower his footprint, his financial footprint, but $25,000 a year for a retired doctor who's now a day trader is absurd. And I don't know why he would have believed that anyone, including Elisa's lawyers, would be like, yeah, that makes total sense. You're only making $25K a year. That's why he wanted to go to mediation, man. 100%. He wanted to resolve it with probably one of his attorneys where she goes in there and signs off on it and says, yeah, I agree to use this mediator, aka his attorney to kind of go through all this and facilitate it.

Didn't work out. Yeah, Sanford's not stupid. And he also really, really, really likes money, right? He's arguing with Elisa over money. She's buying clothes for herself and the kids and a car for their daughter. And he's talking about getting a divorce for three years. And according to Larry Shanker, because they were like, well, why didn't he? why didn't he get a divorce then? And Larry was like, well, it was because of all the divorce lawyers. He saw several of them, but they just wanted to charge him too much, you know, and it was these exorbitant fees. They were trying to charge him. And so basically, Sanford couldn't find a lawyer who was willing to kind of do a clearance divorce for him. And that's why he wants to hold on to every cent that he has. He doesn't, he wants to go to therapy, stay in a bad marriage, or go to mediation, and try to come in there with these false figures.

like I just make 25K and have the mediator be like, well, Elisa, he only makes 25K. He doesn't want lawyers involved that you have to pay by the hour because he knows what's going to go into it. It's all coming out of his pocket. Yeah. Yeah. So Elisa felt that Sanford was hiding a lot of money. And she mentioned something about Sanford closing an account of hers at Morgan Stanley. She said that Sanford had claimed he had power of attorney when he closed that account.

But she asked why he would have power of attorney. She's like, I don't, I never gave him power of attorney. I'm perfectly capable of making my own financial decisions. She then wrote to her lawyer, quote, he is shady. Nothing is beneath him. Trust me on this. End quote. So by January of 2012, Alisa was expressing extreme exhaustion and fear.

She said, quote, Joe, you saw me today. Worse than ever. So jittery. Been getting worse every day. Anxious, nightmares afraid to sleep. He looks deranged. The quiet is worse than the yelling because I know he is thinking. and planning.

Please believe me, I'm really afraid. I think he is going to do something really bad. I keep having low air in my tire. Went to Good Year after putting air in for days. They showed me a nail so small I doubt it could go through the tire. Then I started driving Jason's car for a few weeks. Front tire starts losing air suddenly, even after air is put in. I feel he is out to punish me.

I am really afraid he is going to have me killed. I am of sound mind. I just know him. His behavior is very odd, blank look, very scary. My brother and friends say they fear for my safety. I worry for my children, mom, pets, my own safety. He won't stop at anything. He is determined to destroy me. His room is above mine. He has been pacing for a while. I don't know what to do. Can't leave. Won't leave Jeremy with him stuck. If he gets made to leave, he will go nuts. This is why I have

been going crazy. I'm afraid of him and what he will do. And I don't think Wolf knows what a deranged man he is working with. If he doesn't win, he will crack. I don't know what to do. I know more repercussions coming. They always did, end quote. So when she says, I don't think that Wolf knows what a deranged man he's working with, she's referring to Sanford's lawyer. And obviously, this woman is paranoid out of her mind at this point. And is this paranoia coming from, you know, things Sanford's doing in order to make her feel that way? And he's not like actually a scary person, but he's just trying to stress her out and put her in a weird place where she feels like she just wants to end the divorce and, you know, get it behind her no matter what the cost or what she loses, or is he

actually a scary person? Like, is he doing these things like letting the air out of her tires and pacing when he knows she's in the room beneath him so that she thinks he's crazy and deranged or is he actually crazy and deranged? I think that's the question. I think most people would conclude the same. If you have the ability to get out of that situation, and not live under the same roof, do it. It's not going to affect the court, the trial. I know some lawyers have said, oh, if you move, you're abandoning your property.

I mean, listen, I'm not an attorney, so I'm not, this is not official legal advice, but your life is worth more than the house, if that does happen. But I don't see many, I don't see many judges saying, oh, well, you left because you're in fear of your life, so I'm going to give him the house. I just don't see it happening.

But if you have these gut instincts where you're thinking it's going to get worse before it gets better, worst case scenario, you'll lose the house. Worst case scenario, but at least you still have your life. So anybody out there, because I know this is a prominent thing where a lot of people have tumultuous relationships, going through divorces or whatever, and they get really ugly and nobody's willing to be the bigger person. Be that person.

Get out of that house. Go find yourself a place where you feel comfortable and you feel safe and let the courts do their thing. I'm not going to say they're going to fall in your favor because we've seen a lot of miscarriages of justice over the years. But when I see this statement and I think about why we are here today, it aggravates me and it frustrates me because I wish someone would have pushed a little harder and said to her, hey, I need you to do me a favor. Take some of the money you're making right now. Get yourself a place. That's the number one priority is your safety. But so understand the position

she was in. Her accounts were frozen by him. Even the money she was making from the $60,000 a year that she was making? All her accounts were frozen. She was trying to get them unfrozen. Okay, so even that money that was coming in W2I's every one to two weeks biweekly for, it was going directly to the bank. Yeah. Okay. And Jeremy, their youngest, he's 17. He's still in high school. He's living there.

Now, technically, Sanford was supposed to leave after she filed a divorce paperwork, but he didn't leave. And what's going to make him leave is an order of protection, a restraining order at that point because a judge isn't going to order him to leave at this point because he can't. So how can you get an order of protection? Well, he'd have to do something that you could prove where he was threatening you. Yeah, you have to be injured or even worse. Yeah, you can't just be like, I think he's letting air out of my tire. He's pacing. The cops are going to be like, okay, give us something you can work with.

So he can't. And she even said, if he's made to leave, he'll go crazy. Right. And it'll get worse, whatever he's doing. I've responded to many of these calls where it's mostly the woman in the relationship, but there have been a couple times where it was the man. I'm not a lawyer, but I have to play mediator. There's no crime that's been committed at that point, at least one that I can arrest someone for.

And as you just mentioned, these restraining orders that you get from the courts, you can get them. They're difficult to get. But even when you do, I'm not trying to be negative Nelly here, guys, but to tell you, they're trash. They're absolute shit. Even when you get them, a lot of them are not arrestable. It's just something where if you violate it, the person gets documented and sent to court for it. and the crime would be contempt of court. And so at that point, then the judge has to look at it again and decide whether or not there's going to be an arrest warrant.

So it's a process that can take weeks, if not months, if not years, based on what the person who had the restraining order filed against them decides to do. And in the meantime, you're risking your own safety. I know there's dynamics here that you're talking about financially and they do complicate things. Yeah. So if he's not made to leave right away, he's there. Then he's there still. And you can't do anything to physically remove him. him, but what you can control is yourself. And by the way, I want to make it abundantly clear here,

not victim blaming at all. I've seen the situation so many times. And even when I say it directly to the person's face, they look at me like I have three heads. Because they're between a rock and a hard place. 100%. 100%. But if there's a will, there's a way, I'm not going to say it's going to be comfortable. I'm not going to say it's going to be convenient. But I can't, I can't bring you back once you're gone. The number one priority for me as a cop in that moment is to make sure. I'm not going to that you're safe and that you're here with us. And the only way to increase those odds is to separate you two.

And it may not be fair that he gets to stay there. But again, legally I can't remove him, but you can decide whether you stay or not. But she probably also felt like she was going, you know, she says, I'm of sound mind. But also, I feel like he's going to kill me. You know, there's probably in her head. She's like, this probably sounds crazy.

You know, this is a man I have four children with. I've been with him 30 years. Like, but I feel in my. bones like I'm not safe. And what did we say earlier? 30 years. Yeah. She knows him better than anyone. So if she's saying it, she's, she is literally an expert on Sanford at this point. So if you're, if you're feeling that vibe, go with your gut. Don't doubt it. But I feel like there's been 30 years of manipulation and gas lighting. Yeah, that's true too. And, you know, that's true too. Like having her feel powerless. She doesn't have control over the finance. She's even knew what they're making. Everything was on him.

He made the decisions and he made it that way. So now she's got to make the, decisions and she feels like I don't know what to do I just know how I'm feeling she's writing this this email to her lawyer it's the middle of the night she's sitting in her bed she's like I can't take this anymore she's hearing him pace around and remember what Larry Shanker said when he came over the day the divorce was filed he said he was rampant he kept saying rampant Sanford was rampant he was moving he's walking picking things up putting them back down kind of sounds like that's what Sanford's doing right there she's observing as well in the house. That's why if you can, if there's any physical way to do it, it might not be the most

comfortable situation, friends, family members, even if you got to sleep on a couch, number one priority is your safety. Everything else, material items, money, you can get that. You can, you can replace those items. I wonder if there was an issue with Jeremy, though, being 17. Like, if she had left and taken Jeremy with her, could Sanford have called the police and said she kidnapped my son? Well, I mean, 16 years old. He's 17, yeah. See, so he's at the end. So he, so He's above 16 is what I'm saying. So at that point, he has the ability to say who he wants to live with at that point. And so if Jeremy felt unsafe.

But maybe Jeremy was like, I don't want to leave my house. Well, then you can stay. Yeah. But she said, I don't want to leave him with him. I get it. I get it. And every dynamic, every situation is different. And I'm just saying just from a more like macro level, just in my experience, when one

person in the relationship decides to stay, statistically speaking, I'm usually responding back there. And when I respond back there again, it's even worse than it was prior. It always escalates. Yeah. Very rarely in my 20 years of investigating cases like this now, does it diffuse itself? Have I responded and the person said, hey, I just wanted to let you know, it all worked out. So that's just anecdotally what I've experienced. And I want, I don't want someone listening or watching this right now who unfortunately is listening to you, Stephanie, and relating it to themselves because they're going through a similar situation and they don't know what to do. And we can't bring Elisa back.

But what we can do is learn from what happened to her. And although your situation may not be a cookie cutter carve out of what she went through, their similarities there. And if you're having similar feelings to her, please take the advice, do what you have to do, get out with even if it's only what you can fit in your backpack. Now, the ideal situation would have been the multiple times that the police were called to the house in the past that Elisa had pressed charges, gunners, order. But of course, that wasn't happening because a divorce wasn't in play yet. Now Sanford's

not going to do anything because he's calculated that would lead to her being able to viably bring a restraining order against him and have him removed in the house. And as Derek said, you would be surprised how difficult it is to get a restraining order like that where the person is removed or arrested or where they are, you know, legally forbidden from coming within so many feet of you or this is, it's very difficult to do that. You have to have a lot of evidence to back that up. Yep. And at this point, because so much of what had happened was in the past, which is what caused

her to get the divorce in the first place, that it's not going to be viable evidence. It has to be happening in that moment. She has to be in danger at that moment, not just feel she is. Even with that being the case, and I'm calling out law enforcement here, but they, they show up. And how many times have we heard about divorces that go bad where both parties are making allegations against the other for the sake of the divorce? So that's another lens that you're having to kind of go through as a police offer to separate fact from fiction. So it's not an easy situation to be in for law enforcement, but especially for the people directly involved.

Yeah, yeah. So we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. So these days, I'm really trying to focus on quality over quantity, especially in my home, because you just get so many things over the years. And then you're like, well, how would have to? I've been dossed right now, but especially in my closets, because I find when I have too many options, it feels like I have nothing to wear. So if something isn't well made and versatile, I just don't see the point anymore. And that's honestly why I love quince. I know you do too.

The fabrics feel elevated. The cuts and styles are thoughtful and flattering. And the pricing really makes sense. Yeah. And a lot of the clothes that you buy, especially these days, they fall apart after the first few washes or uses. That's not the case with quince. I did not know we were doing quince today. We don't see the ads until we come in. I'm wearing a quince shirt right now. You always say that. It's the truth. Sure, Jan. It's the truth. I swear. I mean, I wish I was that prepared where I was like, oh, I should wear something from quince today. But I just wear their stuff. It's comfortable and it's form fitting. So it's like, yeah, I don't have to try. I don't have to make sure it just I order it. The sizing's right on and I think it looked pretty good in it. So, well, I will say in

your defense, I see you, you know, randomly throughout the week, not when we're filming in crime weekly and you have this shirt on a lot. Dude, I love it. It's a tester that you actually love it. I literally wore it on Traders. National show they gave me a budget, like a huge budget to buy my clothes and I wore a bunch of Quince gear. What else do you need?

Like literally I wanted to look my best for national TV and I chose their clothes. Well, Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, silk and organic cotton poplin and their lightweight cotton cashmere sweaters are perfect for this time of year. And I like that Quince works directly with safe ethical factories and cuts out the So you're not paying for the brand markups and fancy retail stores. You're just getting that quality clothing. Yeah, and Quince clothing is consistently rated 4.5 to 5 stars by thousands of customers.

So it's not just me saying it. The customers are giving the same rate reviews. Absolutely. So right now, go to quince.com slash crime weekly for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it, which is crazy. It's crazy. Come on. It sells itself.

I know. And you will love it. now they are available in Canada too. So this is great. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash Crime Weekly for free shipping and 365-day returns. Once again, that's quince.com slash crime weekly. Okay, so on February 23rd, 2012, Elisa wrote to her lawyer again, and she said, listen, life with Sanford has become unbearable. He's controlling everything from the heat to the kids to the mail. She said, quote, I know he is hiding fun. he made millions of dollars for many years in a row.

He day traded five-figure amounts on various accounts. End quote. Elisa suggested hiring a forensic accountant and claimed that Sanford was taking multiple trips to Florida where he would bring two oversized suitcases at a time and be unreachable for weeks at a time. She wanted to know how he was able to afford all of these trips when he was crying broke in court.

She said it seemed that Sanford was scared of being deposed. He kept telling her to fire her lawyer and telling her son Jeremy that the reason, reason he didn't have a car yet was because the finances were tied up in the divorce and his mother Elisa was causing the divorce to go on longer. She wrote, quote, the bottom line is this man has tortured me for years. If he had been a nice guy, a good dad, I would not be determined to take this to the highest level of investigation. I can't let him get away with all that he has done. I told you from the beginning, I needed your help, bring a bully down. I need to teach my sons that is not okay

to threaten and terrorize women. Even if I come out broke, it will be worth it to give them this life lesson, end quote. Alisa also said that Sanford was planting listening devices around the house because he would quote back to her things that she had said in conversations when he wasn't around. Now more on that later because Larry Shanker comes back in that conversation. Turns out, yes, Sanford did have a listening device that Larry Shanker had provided him. But yeah, we'll talk about that later. So Alisa's messaging her lawyer, emailing him and she's like, you know, I'm really sorry for bothering you. But, but, yeah, we'll talk about that later. But I'm, I need answers to these questions. I need to be free of this terrorist. And she asked her lawyer,

Joe Stafford, what happens now, Joe? And at this point, it seems like Joe wasn't being super responsive to Elisa. She was constantly emailing him and, you know, she was like, let's do this, let's do that, let's do this. And he kind of wasn't getting back to her in a timely fashion. And it may be that he wasn't super responsive because at that time, Joseph Stafford, Elisa's lawyer, he was dealing with his own legal battle. In March of 2012, Joseph Stafford was, suspended by the Ohio Supreme Court for violating the state rules of professional conduct six times. He was banned from practicing law for a year. And the year before that, in April of 2011, his brother and law partner, Vince Stafford, had also been banned from practicing law for a year,

for basically doing the same thing. So by the time Joseph Stafford was suspended, Elisa had already sunk tens of thousands of dollars into her divorce case with his firm. So finding a new lawyer in a different firm was not possible. So her case went to another attorney at Stafford and Stafford, Gregory Moore. So by early January 2013, Eliza and Gregory Moore were communicating about what had been found through the forensic accountant. And what had been found was a lot of things. But most interestingly, a Merrill Lynch account in Elisa's name had been uncovered. It had been opened around May of 2000, but Elisa said she did not remember opening the account and that it was not her signature on the paperwork. In 2004, a document was found that gave Sanford Sherman Power of Attorney over that

account, but Alisa said the signature on the power of attorney form was not hers either. Between 2004 and 2010, large sums of money were withdrawn from that account and transferred into accounts with only Sanford's name on them. By April of 2010, the account, which had reportedly held more than $2 million at one point, had been reduced to zero. So Gregory Moore, Alisa's attorney, then sent the forensic accounting report to Sanford's attorney, and they made it clear. This Merrill Lynch account was going to be a serious issue in the divorce. So we've got kind of proof at this point, looking at it from the divorce context, that Sanford's hiding money, but not only that, that he opened an account in Alisa's name using a forged power of attorney form, or he forged the documents or the paperwork to open the account

because Elisa never had any clue that it existed, and it's in her name, and then he forges the power of attorney paperwork so that he has control over the account that has Elisa's name on it. And why would he be doing that? What did Derek say earlier? Well, he's trying to hide money because he's making money and he doesn't want the, you know, he doesn't want the IRS basically to see all this money under his name. So it's in his wife's name. Now, Sanford and his attorney are going to have a different reason for why they did this.

Different interpretation? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it looks like he's hiding money because it's in an account with her name on it, but she doesn't know what this counts. She's never heard of it. Yeah. And like I had said earlier, it was a tax strategy initially.

And now it's also protected for my wife's strategy as well. Like he's trying to make the transition from, okay, these strategies I've been implementing to hide the money from the federal government. Now I got to hide it from basically the place I, the person I've been hiding it with and they didn't even know it. So it's tough because that was kind of the pocket he was using to kind of diversify the money where it'd be harder for the IRS to track. But now he's got to hide the money from her as well.

And she's finding out about these accounts after the fact, which is not good for him. So the account, by the time they start getting divorced in 2013, the account's still open. Yeah. There's just no money in it. Yeah. There's no money in it. Now he's got to move it from her too because she's an enemy in his mind as well. And this happens every day.

I mean, I didn't do a lot of white collar crime, but I hear about it all the time. And like you said, you were talking about it with your financial advisor. But it's no secret to anybody watching like the ultra elite have way. of paying less taxes than most of the people who are watching this channel right now. They just, they have these tax loopholes where they hide the money. All of us. Yeah, all of them. All of us.

Yeah, all of them. Like I said, when Elon Musk is paying less than the average American, it's crazy. But they have ways of hiding the money. So they're worth $44 trillion or $44 billion. What is it? What is even worth now? A lot. But then they say, oh, no, this is legal.

I mean, yeah, it is legal. But who makes it legal? Who makes it legal? That's why they're trying to change the law. Rightfully so, where whatever he's worth, it's like, it's either billions or, I think it's billions. I think he's worth like 300 and something billion. But on paper, he can argue that he's basically worth nothing. And so when he goes to a bank for a loan, he has to show what he has in investments, even though it's not actual money.

Yeah. I mean, once again, you have to look at it. Like, I just, whoever's a billionaire, I promise you, they are paying politicians to make the, laws, what will benefit them, right? Stephanie, the politicians are being millionaires because of those same laws. But they'll never make the politicians as rich as them because the politicians to these billionaires, they're just like a means to an end. Yeah, I mean, let's talk about those politicians.

Yeah. They got apps. Literally, you can follow politicians because their investment. What they're insider trading. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're insider trading. And they're using the same loopholes that they're not going to alter because they're benefiting from them as well.

different conversation for a different day, but there's an investigation we need to work on, although we'd be killed before we solved it. I don't know, man. I'm talking about it. And you got people who run the SEC, who leave the SEC, and then start working for major firms

and then use what they learned at the SEC to give these major firms loopholes to not be investigated by the SEC. Yeah. What? Great world we live in. Yeah, it's awesome. So, yeah, basically Sanford put $2 million in there

And then gradually, and it's under Elisa's name, but then gradually using this power of attorney that she had no idea about is transferring sums of money into accounts that only have his name on them. So Alisa sees this with a forensic account and she's like, see, I told you, he was hiding money. And I mean, technically, this is marital property. So where is that money now and half of it by law belongs to Elisa? I mean, I would argue since it was in an account with only her name on. He stole from her. He stole from her. No, it's 50-50.

It should be 50-50 all day long. So, and then Gregory Moore, Alisa's attorney, he sends this to Sanford's attorney. And he's like, hey, we found your hidden account. And it's going to be a big deal. Now, the divorce trial of Alisa and Sanford Sherman was scheduled for March 27, 2013. Elisa had met with her lawyer, Gregory Moore, on March 23rd to prepare. But later that day, Moore contacted her again, claiming he'd found something else that they needed to review before court. He asked if she could come back to his office the following day, which was Sunday.

They agreed to meet at 55 Erie View Plaza at 2.30 p.m. Now, that brings us to the evening of March 24, 2013, when Kenny Shepard heard a woman's blood-curdling scream pierced the hazy cold. Kenny was on the fourth floor of the Erie View Plaza building. He was the newest employee at a telecom communications company. And as the lowest guy in the totem pole, Kenny had been scheduled to work that day, which was a Sunday. Other than Kenney, and maybe one or two other people, there was really no one else around because the plaza sits in downtown Cleveland between East 9th Street and East 12th Street, only a few blocks south of Lake Erie, and it's part of Cleveland's financial district. So because this area was made up of large

concrete office blocks, parking lots, very little residential presence, it was pretty much a ghost town in the evening hours of Sunday. So as Elisa Sherman drove towards Erie View Plaza, she was on the phone with her brother, Harry. And she told Harry she was a bit annoyed because, because she was supposed to be meeting her lawyer that day at 2.30, but she had a scheduling conflict, so she had to push the meeting a little bit to three. But then the meeting had gotten delayed again twice more until eventually she wasn't going to be meeting with her lawyer at his office until 5 p.m. Harry said he didn't ask Alisa at that time, who had delayed the meeting the last two times, like pushed it until five, but he knew it wasn't her because she was

annoyed by it. And Alisa's friend, Jen, had also spoken to her earlier that day. And Elisa told Jen that she was frustrated because Gregory Moore, the lawyer, had changed the time on her a few times that day. Elisa had also shared with some friends and family members that she'd been unsatisfied with the level of work she'd been getting from more. And she was concerned because he didn't seem very prepared for the trial, which was right around the corner. And her brother, Harry, stayed on the phone with Elisa until she parked on East 12th Street and got out of the car. Elisa then walked to the building where Stafford and Stafford had their law offices, but it was locked because it was the weekend. Alisa texted her lawyer Gregory Moore and told him she was there. She asked him to unlock the door, but it appears that never happened because less than a minute after sending that text, Aliza said, you know, it's cold.

I'm going back to my car to wait for you. It was approximately 5.26 p.m. when Kenny Shepard, on the fourth floor, heard this piercing scream, followed closely by another scream. And Kenny knew this wasn't normal. And he also knew that he was probably the only person who had heard this woman in distress since no one else was really around. So understanding the urgency of the situation, Kenny skipped the elevator. He ran on the stairs and he saw a woman, Elisa Sherman, laying face down in front of the door to the building. He ran to the door and he said when Alisa heard the door open, she moved and he could see that there was blood all over. He said at first he thought he didn't even know she'd been stabbed.

He thought she was shot. There was so much blood. So Kenny immediately called 911 and police, paramedics and a fire truck responded. Alisa had been stabbed 11 times, eight times in her back, once in her face, once in her neck, and once in her right ear. She was rushed to Metro Health Medical Center, which was five miles away and pronounced dead at 6.14 p.m. Yeah, this is, this is interesting. My first question, right off the rip, and I'm sure you're going to get into it, is where's Gregory? Where's Gregory Moore at this point?

Because you said the meeting was pushed to 526. I have to assume that he would at least have been at that building because he would be in, you know, meetings before. that where he had to push it, but even if he was running a couple of minutes late, I would assume he would calm all the police were there. Right. Right. Or he would have called her and said, hey, I'm going to be running until 5.30. But 526, that's 30 minutes later. That's question number one. The stabbing, obviously intentional appears to be been from behind at first. So that wouldn't indicate some type of robbery, right? Normally when that happens, they'd be facing them and then there's a struggle over the knife. I don't see a situation where Elisa would have pushed back or fought with the

defender, she probably would have been completely cooperative and gave them whatever they wanted. So this looks like the attack happened from the back and then proceeded to occur in the front as well, making sure that Elisa did not survive her injuries. So personal, intentional, the question is why. And obviously at this point, we don't know who the person is, but considering the circumstances, you know where my head's going. I think everybody's head is going there, right? And that's why I say, like this is a complicated case. You also mentioned not a highly trafficked spot, right? No.

He talked about Kenny and being under the assumption, even though he was on the fourth floor. Yeah, he was doing security for them, basically. So they just have to have somebody at the telecommunicate. They probably had sensitive stuff. And he was new to the company. They're like, Kenny, sorry, you're working Sunday. Nothing happens. You know, it's going to be boring because no one's around.

The fact that he would even hear that screaming from the fourth floor tells you how quiet is in that area at that point where he's able to hear that. So not highly trafficked. So if you're a bad guy, not the area you're going to choose to try to attack someone more than likely. You'd have to know that they were going to be there. And considering the specificity of where this occurred right in front of the door. Of the lawyer's office, yeah. Yeah, you have to ask yourself, you know, who would be aware that she was going to be at that office at that time?

Where's that list? I need to see all the players. Exactly. So detectives surmised pretty quickly that Alisa Sherman's murder had been a targeted attack, just like you said. Okay, we're on the same page. We're good. I'm one for one. Yeah, she still had her purse, right?

Her SUV was still parked nearby. She was wearing a lot of jewelry. She had a sapphire ring, which is the birthstone she shared with her daughter, Jennifer. She had a ring her mother Doris had kept throughout the Holocaust, a diamond necklace, and another necklace that held the wedding band of her parents. So not a robbery in any way, shape, or form. So officers set up a perimeter around the scene. They began to canvas the area, but to be honest, there just wasn't much they could do.

It was an area of businesses. And there was no one to be interviewed. It was Sunday. Sunday night. No one's working. No one's there. And there weren't even like any events planned in the city that day. It was kind of cold and rainy.

So no one was like out and about walking. There wasn't like like cars driving by. It was kind of tucked away into this plaza. So there were no cars that would be driving by. It was really difficult. They looked for a potential weapon. They found nothing. And when Alisa's body was swapped for DNA,

They found no DNA. Now, Alisa's daughter, Jennifer, had not talked to her mother as much as she normally would that day because Jennifer was studying for an upcoming pharmacology exam at Case Western University as part of her family nurse practitioner program. And I just want to do a callback because remember, Elisa had gotten accepted into Case Western University's nursing program. And it was a dream she'd always had. It's a very prestigious program, but she couldn't afford to go. And so she made sure when her daughter wanted to become a nurse practitioner, that she had the ability and the funds to go to that program at Case Western University and she was doing it. Jennifer was doing it. So Jennifer said, quote, she knew I was in study mode.

I didn't speak to her on the phone or see her that day, but she sent me a text message at about 255 that afternoon saying she was leaving to go to her attorney soon. She said, call grandma if you can. I hope you're okay. Love you. End quote. So later, when Jennifer had closed the books and gotten ready for bed. she waited for the nightly call or text from her mother saying good night, but it didn't come. Jennifer said her instinct was screaming at her that something was wrong.

She knew that her mother had an appointment scheduled to meet with her divorce lawyer that day, but there was no reason why she wouldn't be answering calls or responding texts. And that's what was happening. So in her pajamas and slippers, Jennifer left her home, got into her car, and began driving around, trying to find her mother by retracing her steps. She even called Elisa's lawyer, Gregory Moore, but he didn't answer the phone either. So eventually the police called Jennifer and asked her to meet them at her mother's house in Beachwood. They said they had something to tell her, but it needed to be told to her in person.

When Jennifer arrived at the house, she'd grown up and she refused to go inside. Instead, she and her 17-year-old brother, Jeremy, they came out and waited for the police in the driveway. And Jennifer said, quote, that house where my mom in Sanford were living and Jeremy was an extremely hostile environment over the past two years. And somewhere I just avoided. I like to see my mom away from that house, end quote. I think it's telling that after her mother's murder, Jennifer's referring to her father as Sanford. Yeah, I would agree with that.

So it took 45 minutes of waiting in that driveway before the police showed up and told Jennifer and Jeremy that their mother was gone. We're going to take our last break. We'll be right back. You know your dog deserves better than Kibble. And when you start looking at options, it gets really overwhelming, really fast. It's just like, you know, looking for better options of eating for yourself.

You know, there's so many choices that it's hard to know where to even start. So let us help you out. Yeah. And pet food these days, it's become like a whole research project. I think I need to hire you to research my dog food because it's pretty bad out there. I like the pets table. It's personalized dog food from the team behind Hello Fresh. And they offer both.

That may have heard of them. Yeah. They offer both human grade, fresh meals and gently air drive. options, or you can mix both to see what your dog prefers. They've got nine recipes all formulated with a board certified vet nutritionist. Yeah, and the air dried option is, I think, grossly underrated because your fridge space is, at least in my house, it's a commodity. And so being able to do the air dried food is pretty convenient because I can stick it in the cupboard opposed to taking up something in the fridge. It's shelf stable. It needs zero prep, which I love.

And unlike kibble that's highly processed at high temperatures, the pets table is minimally processed to preserve nutrients like protein, vitamins, and antioxidants that support gut health, immune health, a healthy coat, and an active lifestyle. Yeah, and honestly, the fresh food, it actually looks like real food. That's the only thing. You want to make sure you don't put it too close to what you're eating because you're definitely going to slip up and eat it. I wanted to try it a couple times, but I've refrained so far no promises that I won't in the future. When I switched all four of my dogs to the pet's table, the first thing I noticed was how. excited they were at meal time. They weren't kind of like, oh, it's time to eat, you know, they were, they're very excited. They run over. It's honestly so much easier than what I was doing before. No prep,

no guessing portions. Yep. And they even back it with a 100% money back guarantee on the two-week trial. So there's really no risk to trying it. You have nothing to lose. Yeah, except that your dog's going to love it. Spoiler alert, you're not going to send it back. Yeah. So help your dog live their best life with high quality food from the pets table. Take advantage of this limited time offer. You're going to get 55% off your first box plus 10% off your next two at the Petstable.com. Use code crime weekly 55. Once again, that's the Petstable.com code crime weekly 55. So obviously in the wake of Eliza Sherman's death, her estranged husband Sanford was at the top of everyone's suspect list. I mean, you know, you don't know the whole thing. Yeah. Understandably. I mean, that makes sense.

And suspicion towards Sanford Sherman after Eliza's murder wasn't random or purely emotional. It grew out of a combination of well-known statistical patterns in domestic homicide? The specific circumstances of the divorce, obviously, and behaviors and evidence described by people close to the couple. When investigators and family members looked at the situation in March of 2013, there were several reasons it made logical sense for attention to turn towards him first. Historically, when a woman is murdered, especially in the context of a deteriorating marriage, the most common perpetrator is a current or former intimate partner.

This was not a quiet or mutual divorce. time Elisa was killed, the proceedings have been going on for almost two years. The dispute had become increasingly bitter. The trial was scheduled for just a few days after Lisa was murdered, and weeks after she had discovered that hidden Merrill Lynch account. So a great deal of money and reputation was on the line for Sanford Sherman. Law enforcement quickly determined that Elisa's death was not random. It had been a targeted attack. Nothing was stolen. It was public, but arranged to be at a time and in a place where very few people would be around, and the perpetrator seems to know exactly where Elisa would be, and only a very small number of people knew that

Elisa was going to be meeting with her lawyer at his office that night. And because Sanford obviously knew about the divorce proceedings and her legal meetings, that fact also contributed to suspicion. So after the murder police wanted to speak with Sanford, and honestly, he did what any good defense attorney would advise him to do, he hired a lawyer and declined to close. He was cooperate with the police, right? I mean, whether he's guilty or not, he's going to know they think he is. Of course. Of course. So he gets a lawyer and the lawyer's like, you don't have to say anything. And Sanford doesn't really say anything. Now legally, that is within a person's rights, but socially and emotionally, it's often going to fuel suspicion, especially for grieving family members and friends

who want answers. Yeah, totally understand it. But as you just said, it's the right move for Sanford. And I've been a big proponent of telling you guys to do the same, whether you're guilty or not guilty have an attorney present. But yeah, it doesn't take a veteran detective to start with Sanford. When you look at a death like this that's targeted where there's no financial gain from the immediate incident, i.e. all of her belongings are still with her. Who stands to gain the most from her death? Who benefits the most from this? You'd be a fool not to make that list and say, who would actually benefit from her no longer being here? And the number one person on that list by a mile would be Sanford. His life gets a lot better with her being gone. She's not.

not getting the money for sure, right? Right. She's not going to get the money. She's not going to get the house. Everything's in his name now. There's nobody else that it's going to go to. The children, there's only one that's under 18 at this point. So yeah, he has a lot to gain by this. Does it necessarily mean that he's the one there with the knife? I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't automatically mean that. But no, number one. And I think even he, whether he did it or not, we're going to get there. If he is innocent would understand this. And he did the right thing to get a lawyer. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. You have to look at it and be fair. Right. So Sanford Sherman could be totally innocent of the murder, but know how guilty he was in making his wife's life a living hell in the two years leading up to the divorce in the 30 years of their marriage and know that everybody around, including your own children, saw this. And also he knows exactly what we just said. Wow, I look guilty as sin for this. I have the most of financially gained from it. The timing's not good.

Yeah. This is not this is not good optically. I need an attorney. And so to be fair to him, even if he's completely innocent of the murder, he's not going. This is technically the right move. But once again, emotionally, it's cold, right? It's cold. I would wonder about the conversations that he had behind closed doors with his children. That might be something that we are not unaware of.

But I would have candid conversations with them because you know they're going to have questions. They're all adults. You need to sit down with them and say, hey, guys, I know what you might be thinking. I know I wasn't the best dad. I don't think he would do this, but I know I wasn't the greatest and I know there was a lot going on, but I didn't kill your mother. I wanted to say that publicly, but I didn't. Right, right, right. But I mean, that conversation can happen behind closed doors and not know about it, but from a legal perspective, he'd be a fool to speak with detectives by himself.

Yes, I mean, I guess unless you could provide an alibi and you could provide, you know, it had to be concrete. It'd be like, hey, I'm not saying anything else. I'm not answering your questions. Here's the date and time and question. Here's where I was here. It's who I was with. if you have any other questions, please speak to my attorney. But then, you know, obviously they're going to look for some financial trail to see if he paid somebody to do this.

So that would be another very reasonable place to look. Yes. So. Especially when he has all this money. That he's hiding. Especially when you have a lawyer who doesn't appear very good at his job and Greg and he just coincidentally is nowhere to be found. Elise's lawyer. Yes, Greg.

I'm going to be honest with you. He's not looking good. I'm not accusing him of anything. I don't want a lawsuit on my desk tomorrow. But doesn't look good. You haven't gotten to where was he? And I know you were going to get to that point in the story because Greg's got some explaining to do.

Yes, he does. Yes, he does. Because remember, Jennifer says she called her mother's lawyer. Well, that's my point. He's nowhere to be found. He had a meeting. And you're not calling or texting Elisa to be like, where are you? Why did you miss our meeting?

He better be stranded on a boat somewhere right now. We'll talk about that. So Elisa Sherman's funeral was scheduled for March 28th at 2 p.m. She had created so many friendships and bonds throughout her lifetime. It was standing room only. Elisa's children were there, of course, along with countless friends and, you know, past patients, Elisa's three brothers. Sanford Sherman was there as well, standing at the back separated from the rest of

Elisa's nearest and dearest. The chapel was packed with 600 people, and they all had something special to say about the woman who had impacted their lives positively in some way. Now, one attendee had another message she wanted to get across. So Jennifer spoke, I believe, another one of Elisa's sons spoke, but Joshua, the oldest, he wasn't scheduled to speak. And then all of a sudden at the end, he gets up. And he kind of has like a moment of, you know, startled everybody. He said that he'd seen the news stories and he had heard the whispers in the community about his mother's death.

And he said, quote, I'm sick of hearing about these stories on the news. No one knows who did it. I'm going to say right now my father had nothing to do with this. She was the best mother in the world. And if I find out who did this, I will take care of them myself. End quote. So it seems that there was some separation in the kids where, you know, if you look at Jennifer and maybe the other brothers, they kind of thought, yeah, it's possible our father did this, right?

You can hear Jennifer calling him Sanford. There's going to be legal action that Jennifer's going to bring against Sanford. but Joshua was like absolutely not. My father did not do this. Sometimes people can be blinded by their love. Yeah, or manipulated when you're a kid and it's your parent. He may be right. But I think in that moment based on that statement, that quote, he genuinely believes it.

Yes, I agree. He genuinely believes that I love two things can be true. I love my mother, but I also love my father. And I'm going to kill the person who did this when I find out who actually did it. It doesn't mean he's right, but I can understand where he's coming from. He can't believe that the man who raised him was capable of doing something like this. And you know what? He might be right.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. So in April of 2013, police released two surveillance videos connected to Elisa's murder. They showed a person of interest dressed all in black, passing a bank machine in the area of East 13th Street and Hamilton Avenue. So the first part of the video that you see, it's happening at around 5.21 p.m. The figure runs from the right side of the frame. their faces covered by a mask.

And then another camera captured Elisa's murder, although this footage was never released to the public. So Ed Tumba, who led Cleveland's police homicide unit in 2013, he said the footage shows Elisa outside the entrance to Erie View Plaza. And it appears that the perpetrator startled her. He said, quote, it seems like the perpetrator enters the frame from the east 9th Street area between the two buildings. Elisa turned and was startled by the person.

the assault took place, then the assailant ran and ran down 12th Street, end quote. So the footage of the perpetrator running away from the scene was shared with the public, and they can be seen running urgently away. Their arms are flailing. It kind of looks like their left hand is holding something to their chest, and their right hand is kind of like bobbing along at the side. And I think that they probably have the knife that they used clutched to their chest so nobody can see it.

They don't want to just like stick it in their pants or whatever because it's, a knife that's open and unsheathed. But they don't seem to look like a professional. Would you disagree? It kind of seems to look like somebody who's like really not calm about the situation. I never like to make these leaps and judgment. I will tell you my first and my just initial thought when we started talking about how she was killed is that if somehow Sanford was involved, he'd be a complete moron to do this himself because he knows that the first person they're going to look at is him and they're going to be looking for an alibi, right? So if you if you can't give a concrete alibi, you're screwed. So my first thought would be he's going to bring someone in a professional

to handle this, right, so that he has that level of separation. If again, he's involved. But just looking off this little bit of video we have here, I agree with your observations. He appears to have a little bit of a, I don't know, like a certain walk to him, but he's running. These are like it's frame by frame. It's not smooth. But for anybody who's not watching the video, right now if you're listening on audio. This person is covered head to toe. You can't tell if they're black, they're white, they're male or female. They have jeans or something bluish pants on, black shoes, a greenish black jacket. And the hood is up over their face, even like tied shut. Which is a mask on it. Yeah, maybe a mask on it. I mean, this person knew what they were doing,

knew they could be caught on camera. Actually, in the video, if you look, as they're running by the one of the poles, like the, I guess the, what would you call it, the beam or something there? What would you call that thing that says park on it? Would you call that? A sign. I don't know a sign. No, but it's like the signs there, but it's like, what do you know? Like a concrete thing.

Yeah, like a pillar. Yeah, pillar. A pillar. There's a big ass camera right on the side of that pillar that's looking at us. So this person knew they were going to get caught on camera somewhere based on the area and they were covered head to toe. So premeditated chair, are they a professional? It doesn't look like they are here.

here, but that doesn't mean that we're not going to find out that they are. But no, my first thought would be to even choose to do it at this moment in this location with multiple video surveillance cameras, not a professional, just somebody who was desperate and wanted her dead sooner than later. So at Tumba, the guy who's running the homicide division at that time, he kind of said the same thing. He said it's unique to have so much footage, especially of the crime itself, which remember wasn't shared with the public, but still have such trouble identifying the suspect. So in this footage, Tumba said, is difficult to tell if the perpetrator is even a man or a woman. And the Cleveland Police Department even brought in experts to help. They had the Cleveland

Clinic examined the surveillance footage to see if they could analyze the assailant's gate, like tell us something more about what kind of person this was, whether they are a man or a woman. They even asked NASA to enhance the video for clues. But that didn't bring them any closer to any answers. Because as you said, they're covered up pretty well. Yeah, this person was prepared. They knew they were going to be on video, but it seems like there was a decision made that, hey, the risk is worth the reward, if you will, where I'm putting myself in jeopardy here. I'm going to do the best to kind of obscure my identity. However, I got to do it now because if I wait too long, the cat's going to be out of the bag. And whatever information she has or will have is going to be a detriment to this person or the person they're working for.

The only other thing that I would add, the knife is a weapon of choice on purpose. We know that with ballistics, it's easier to trace. So using a knife would be the better way, the more efficient way to do this because it doesn't give law enforcement a lot. That is such a good point. And I cannot wait to discuss that next time we meet here and we talk about Elisa. So Tuma even said, like, the person in the video was wearing this dark, puffy jacket. And the police narrowed it down to three or four possible types of jackets. And for years, they stayed on the lookout.

They were like, hey, anybody on the street, see walking, anyone we arrest, anyone we see, are they wearing a similar type jacket? And this led nowhere as well. So in the months and then the years following Elisa's murder, her family and friends diligently worked to make sure that the case did not fade from public view or lose the attention of law enforcement. On April 9th, 2013, Elisa's friends Mary and Jen, along with 80 others, gathered at the location where Elisa had been attacked and killed. They had teamed up with the Chiajoga County Crime Stoppers and they were announcing a $25,000 reward for information about the case. By August, the reward had doubled to 50K, and by September,

a billboard was put up with Alisa's picture, the reward amount, and the phone number for crime stoppers. But around that same time, Sanford Sherman was making his own quiet moves. On July 30th of 2013, Sanford presented a will in Cuyahoga County Probate Court, and he was applying to become the executor of Alisa's estate. And the will was dated December 2006, indicating that everything would be left to Sanford as Alisa's still lawful spouse, even though they were, you know, days away from a divorce trial. Now, this sprung Elisa's daughter, Jennifer, into action. She hired a probate attorney who helped her take steps to apply for guardianship of her youngest

brother, Jeremy. The attorney also advocated for Jennifer to become executor of her mother's estate. This attorney, Adam Fried, he argued that Sanford Sherman was unfit to act as an executor because that role meant he would be obligated to act in the best interest of the estate's beneficiaries. And with the ongoing investigation into Elisa's death and information that they discovered while going through the divorce files, Adam Fryden and Jennifer Sherman did not think that it was possible for Sanford to do that. You know, they were like, you were going through a really contentious divorce. You probably didn't have her best interests at heart then. And you're not going to now.

It's been proven that you were kind of like moving money around. So we don't think that. that you're the best person for this job. And by September of 2013, Sanford Sherman had resigned as executor, which allowed Jennifer and her brother Josh to become co-executors, but the legal battles amongst the Sherman family were far from over. And then suddenly, another figure popped up in relation to the case. So in December of 2013, Gregory Moore, remember, Elisa's divorce attorney, he pleaded not guilty to charges of inducing panic related to bomb threats that had been called into three county employees who worked for the domestic relations court. These phone calls had happened in July of 2012, and all three resulted in the Lakeside Courthouse being evacuated for the day. As it

turned out, Gregory Moore had hearings in three divorce cases, sat in three different courtrooms that day, and these were the same three courtrooms that had received the calls, so he was quickly identified as a suspect. And they had some information and some evidence that he was the one who had made these calls. And while Moore was waiting to be arraigned, on this case, a detective entered the courtroom and called out his name. And this was Kathy Cruz, a Cleveland homicide detective. And she wanted to speak to more about the Elisa Sherman case, the Elisa Sherman murder. So now it's like, okay, is it Gregory Moore? Is it Sanford Sherman? Is it both of them? What's going on here? Yeah. And that's where we'll pick up next week.

I think a lot of people are feeling the same way as you. We have a short list right now. obviously you have Samford who's going to be on that list. You have Gregory Moore is going to be on that list. Anybody else who would have financially gained from her being gone, which is still the question I'm asking. I'm sure it's going to be a moment where you get into Gregory Moore and you answer that for me as far as how does he benefit from this? She's a client of his.

He didn't financially stand to gain anything from her death. That's for sure. Right. Exactly. So why would he want her dead? I don't know. There's definitely a wrinkle here. So that's the thing.

The reason that they give for why he was potentially responsible for this or is responsible, it doesn't make sense to me. Well, there you go. And that's why I think there's more to this. I'm ready for part two. This is another one of those episodes where I'm ready. Let's just record it right now. Yeah. I mean, I wish we could, but you said you have basketball.

I do have basketball tonight with Tenley. But it kills me not to look this up. Don't look it up. Nobody look it up. I promise I won't. I promise I won't. No, I mean, you took the words out of my mouth. Like, that's a list right now.

That's where I'm at as far as, it's not going to be a lot of people. This wasn't a random act of violence. This wasn't just some person who was in the area at the time and saw some belongings that she had and wanted them because everything was still on her. This was a targeted attack. It was premeditated in nature. There was specific choices made in order to avoid detection. And so you got to look at the people in her life.

This is somebody who knew her. It may not have been the person who actually carried out the act, but either way, the person who killed her has some connection to someone in her life. So fascinating case, looking forward to hearing more. Any final words from you? No, no. Go to basketball and then we'll get back here. Guys, make sure if you want to be entered into the CrimeCon giveaway, the document is in the description.

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We'll see you soon. Bye.