Crime Weekly - S3 Ep145: Tamla Horsford | Was This A Cover-Up? (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 10, 2026

On the night of November 3rd, 2018, a group of women gathered at a quiet home in Forsyth County, Georgia for what was supposed to be a casual birthday sleepover. There was football on TV, drinks flowing, and nothing about the evening seemed out of the ordinary. But by the next morning, one of those women- 40-year-old Tamla Horsford- was dead. Try our coffee! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www.WildGrain.com/CrimeWeekly30 - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY30 to get $30 off your first box and FREE croissants for LIFE!2. https://www.EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!3. https://www.Ladder.fit/CrimeWeekly - Get your 7-Day FREE trial and $10 off your first month!4. https://www.Rula.com/CrimeWeekly - Connect with quality therapists and prioritize your mental health today!5. https://www.TryFUM.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for a FREE gift with your Journey Pack!

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Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Lavasser. So today we're diving into part two of the Tomla-Horsford case. And Derek and I talked about this a little bit on Crime Weekly News. And we've talked about it a little bit over the past week. Yeah. Great response to the first part.

Crazy. Blew up. It went crazy. Appreciate you guys being here. It's such an important case. And like I said, I think that a lot of people saw it kind of come and then go. and they didn't look deeper into it. I was one of those people.

I'm sad to say. I'm so glad that I'm looking deeper into it now because there is so much there. And we're going to talk about it today. Yeah. People have been weighing in the comments on the social media posts. And also it seems, and I guess I'm just old, but what I'm seeing a lot in the comments, the reason that the video did so well, at least on YouTube audio is different. And you may be familiar with this, but people are hyping it.

You know what that is? I see. hyping things, but I don't know what it means. So essentially, because I saw it and I'm like, what are we doing here? What is this? What's happening? And essentially, you guys, like, why are you hyping me? Yeah, why are you hyping us up?

And essentially, if you're watching on YouTube right now, you have the ability to hype the video for free. And by doing so for smaller creators, which relatively speaking, we're a smaller creator on YouTube, you can hype the video, which allows it to be seen by more people. So if you feel inclined to do so, hype the video. And that's what happened on this last episode, which is why compared to some of our other recent cases, this one did exponentially better because you guys basically promoted it. And that's what led to more exposure. So thank you for that.

Now I know a new thing. Hyping. Hyping. Hyping. We should. We should. Just leave a review. Leave a rating.

That's what helps get the- Or go to YouTube and hype. Yeah. Do both. How about that? Can we be greedy and just do both? Yeah. If you will hype us, we shall hype you.

We will hype you. So we have a lot more to talk about today. We're going to dive into it. Is there anything you want to say before we do? No, I was trying not to be influenced by you guys because when you go read the social media comments, you guys are ahead of us or ahead of me, I should say. So I try not to be, I try to stay as impartial as I can. I think I did a pretty good job. So I'm right there with you in the story where we last left off.

And I know I asked you, you know, all of you, but specifically Derek, like don't look into this yourself. So we can kind of unfold it. He didn't. And I know he didn't because I talked to him about it. So let's just dive right in. Let's go back to the morning of November 4th, 2018, when the body of Tamla Horstford was found face down in the backyard of the home of Jean Myers. Jean's quote-a-quote aunt, Madeline Lombardi, was the first person to see Tam. And the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office interviewed her formally on November 7th. Now, we remember that Bridget Fuller, who I'm glad everybody agrees with me is sketchy and off because I thought I was kind of being mean just because I get impressions of people and I'm like, ugh, I don't really like this person. Not saying she's guilty of anything, but. Well, that's the thing, right? Like, it's one, you can acknowledge that she's off. Yeah. And you're not inferring that she's guilty. Like two things can be true here where you could agree that her approach and her mannerisms are suspicious as hell. And yet it may be unrelated to what happened at the. Tomola. So that's where I draw the line as well. Like, you can still feel a certain way about her

and not think she's guilty of murder. I don't know where I sit on it right now. But I think anybody with half a brain would acknowledge that her behavior and her response to all of this, minimal, it's suspicious. Yeah. And just the, just the way she lives her life, right? wearing a necklace with Xanax and giving them out, like, tick tax to everybody. We had multiple people in the comments on YouTube who were like, listen, I have severe anxiety. And I'm someone who, needs Xanax or something else at the ready. But I'm not walking around with a bunch of pills in my necklace. That's just not standard. Now, it feels very high school to me. Like, like, I'm a girl in high school and I need everybody to know that I have anxiety kind of thing.

Can I give my opinion? I per, and again, I have nothing to substantiate this. I'll steal your phrase allegedly. It seems to me like Bridget felt a little cool. And she might have been the local who had a prescription to Xanax and would give it to her friends when they asked for it when they went out. And, you know, I've had, I've been in circles where, especially in like college where someone might have access to something and that's the person you go to, it seems like in her friend group, it was a known thing that Bridget had access to Xanax. And she embraced that role by carrying it around in the necklace. That's just my opinion. I don't think she was doing that for herself. Like, what kind of necklace is this?

I would love to see this. Did it have like an axe on it? Like, what are we doing here? It was probably one of those like you see in the movie. movies where it's a cross. I thought you had said it was a cross. I don't, that would be, if it was a cross, like you mean like a Sarah Michelle Galler's character and cruel intentions where she kept cocaine in her cross necklace? Yes. So maybe I was just, maybe you didn't say it. And I was just correlating the two, but you, I've seen multiple movies where it's like a cross

necklace and they open it up. Squid Games had something like that as well where they had like a necklace. I don't think it was a cross, but it opened up and it had like pills inside of it that, you know, you could sneak into different places. That would be wild to me. If it was a cross, I'm dead. Oh my God. That's next level. All right.

So maybe I was just envisioning that and you didn't actually say it. But that's what it reminds me of right. That character and cruel intentions, she's like some high school girl. She thinks she's so cool. She's so dark and so edgy. And she's like, yeah, I'm just known to have this cocaine cross necklace. I feel like it was probably an inside thing is like, did you bring the necklace, Bridget? I feel like it was a thing.

But anyways, Bridget Fuller, man. All I'm saying is if I was invited to hang out with Bridget Fuller, I would very quickly and wholeheartedly decline the invitation. Okay, this is a person I would not get along with. She feels uncomfortable around certain people, Stephanie. She feels uncomfortable. And she's the mother hen and people only love me because of what I do for them because I clean up after them. I was on my laptop. I just couldn't even be.

I looked at Jose and I was like, take this off my hands talking about a human person. get out of here, man. Oh, you're just so elevated. You're so evolved over everybody else. But you're the one with the necklace full of Xanax. So anyways, Bridget Fuller, remember, she told the police that every time Tam went out for a cigarette, someone was with her. They never let her go out alone, even though Jose said that he believed Tam had always gone out to smoke alone. And he never saw anyone with her because he just always saw her coming back inside alone.

So Aunt Madeline, she said that on the evening of November, 3rd, she had made gumbo and she was encouraging everyone to eat it all night. And she said when the boys, Jose Barrara and Tom Smith came up from the basement at halftime, she told them that they could eat first, but then they had to go out and get ice because they were all out of ice and everyone was still drinking and mixing drinks. Now at that point, Madeline went outside with Tam and Stacey Smith. Tam smoked a cigarette. Then Stacy got up and went back inside, and then Madeline and Tam went inside. Tam then asked Madeline if there was any the ice left and Madeline said she did have some. She had an old-fashioned ice cube tray down in the

basement. So she went and got that ice so that Tam could make a drink. Now the last thing Madeline said to Tam was that she liked her Dalmatian pajamas and then she went down to the basement where remember her bedroom was. Aunt Madeline lives in the basement. So Madeline said that while the guys were gone getting ice, she took a bath and then she turned on her TV and she watched it for a little bit until she felt herself getting tired, and then she turned some thunderstorm nature sounds on using her Bose speaker. She said she used the Bose speaker because she could hear people upstairs. They were loud, and she wouldn't be able to go to sleep with all that noise coming from upstairs. Madeline said that after that, she never got up a single time, but she did turn the speaker down

sometime in the early morning hours because at that point, she was worried that maybe her Bose speaker might be bothering the people upstairs who were trying to sleep because she had it up so loud. Madeline said she didn't hear a thing all night. At around 8.30 a.m., she started looking at the clock, thinking it was time to get out of bed and get going. But she lingered in bed for about 15 minutes before actually getting up. So that puts Madeline Lombardi getting out of bed around 8.45 a.m. And at that time, she said she started getting things ready with her coffee maker,

which was downstairs in the basement. She talks about how the coffee maker is an espresso maker. So there's a bunch of things you have to do to make coffee. It's not just like a normal drip coffee maker. You have to empty out the grinds from the day before. You've got to grind the beans, et cetera, et cetera. I went, get the coffee maker started, and I went, stand by the window. And I was just staring out the window.

And I saw those Dalmatian pajamas, damn. But I couldn't remember her name. Right. Because that was the first time I'd met her. So I didn't start the coffee. I got on my knees and I said a prayer. And then I ran upstairs and I knocked on the door. And I thought I heard water running.

And I thought maybe Jose and Jean were taking the shower. So I went downstairs because I was like thinking, I shouldn't wake up. Maybe she's up. So I went downstairs and I looked out the window again and then it was just like, I couldn't believe my eyes. I was saying inside my head, she's not moving. She's not moving. So then I went knock on the door louder. And you never went out there? You just moved to the window, right? No. And that's when I told Jose that I knocked on the doors. Jean said come in and he was sitting up in bed. And I said, Jose and I looked at Jean and I said, I just want to talk to Jose.

to come downstairs with me. And Jean said, why? What's wrong? And I said, your friend, your friend from the islands is laying in the backyard and she's not moving. And then that's when Jose went out and Jean went out right behind them. I don't even know which door they went out of. I came back in here and I guess we woke up Jen. Okay, so Madeline said that Jennifer Morel was sleeping in the only room on the main floor.

Tom and Stacey Smith had been sleeping in one of the upstairs bedroom near where Jean and Jose's room was, but they had left earlier in the morning because they had kids. We'll come back to that. Madeline said that at the point when she woke up Jose and Jean, Jennifer Morel was the only person still there. Now, we know that technically Tom and Stacy hadn't left that much earlier. According to them, they'd left around 8.30, which was exactly when Madeline decided it was time to think about getting out of bed and starting her day. Now, at this point in the interview with Madeline, you're going to hear another voice, and it belongs to Jean Myers. I'm going to start charging your rent. Get out of my head. Look, and I just went and got y'all gift cards. Oh, what are they going to be? Bring them on and told them I just made them cookies.

But then I was told I shouldn't because then it could look bad if I give you something. before the case is closed. Oh, you better wait. And it's very stereotypical, because I figure all the cops would be going to go nuts, right? You may have something. Do you need me or can I go upstairs and get ready for this funeral? Go do your thing. Okay, perfect.

All right, so just in case anybody couldn't hear clearly, Jean says, I'm about to start charging y'all rent. So she's implying, she's been seeing a lot of these police officers, right? Yeah. And these police officers are Mike Christian and Tyler Sexton. So she also says that she got the detectives Dunkin' Donuts gift cards, but then she was told she probably shouldn't give them the gift cards. Yeah, probably a wise idea. You know, before the case was wrapped up because they would look bad.

Right. Yeah, I don't like this interaction. It doesn't mean they're guilty of murder, but I just don't like the implication of it, like the idea that, hey, this is already a foreword. gone conclusion that this is going to go nowhere, we're not being looked at as persons of interest, we'll give you some gift cards when you're done concluding that this was a tragic accident. It's almost like an assumption is being made where it may be innocent, but it doesn't look great. And I at least from so far in the story, it seems like they weren't given any type of gift, which

if the police officers had accepted anything including a gift card when they're investigating a potential murder, that ethically and morally would have been wrong and also against policy. So I just don't like the interaction. It's just, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Yeah, and she just seems very like, flippin. Lase fair about the whole thing, you know. When you wrap this up, you know.

Maybe then you'll get your gift cards. You'll get some Dunkin' Donate gift cards. Cops like donuts. I just don't like, it's not even the gift cards, more of just like. The playful interaction, like the familiarity. Yeah, someone died in your backyard. Yeah, and keep in mind, this is November 7th. Yeah, it's a serious thing.

It's very soon. not only just three days after one of her, quote unquote, friends died at her house, but it's also the day of Tam's wake. Yeah, she said, can I go upstairs and get ready for this funeral? Yeah, you hear Jean mentioned at the end, she's like, do you need me or can I go get ready for this funeral? It wasn't the funeral. It was the wake.

In reality, the funeral was the following day. And it's just like, you know, she's clicking around in her heels, like, hmm, do you need me? The familiarity. And I feel like, I think it was my Christian's voice where he's like, get out of my head, woman. You know. It's also the demeanor, right? Like you're going, you're getting ready for a wake. It sounds like kind of like a formality.

Like, ah, I got to go get ready for this wake. I got to go get ready for this funeral. This funeral, yeah. I don't know. No somberness. Right. Like you're about to go to the wake of a woman who died in your home after your party. Right.

Right. I don't like it. I don't like it. And you can also hear that Aunt Madeline made the detective's cookies. So these cops are being treated pretty well when they go to John Myers home. Now, you want to get off on a crime. Just give me some cookies. Now, if the cops are accepting the cookies when they're there, what's that feeling to you?

Is that okay? Do you think? I just don't like it. Like, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm on this, you know, high horse where I haven't been in situations before where while interviewing someone, someone else there may have offered me a drink or, you know, a cook. And I, not even a cookie. I don't think I've ever been offered cookies, but something where maybe, more than likely I declined, but I don't want to get called out by a former guy who's watching this going,

yeah, remember that time we accepted sandwiches? Listen, if I'm trying to calm these people down and build a rapport with them where they open up to me, as a tactic, I may say, sure, let's, yeah, let's have some cheese and crackers on the table, whatever. These are the best cookies I've ever had, Anne Adel. You know, you get them to open up to you where they feel like your friend. It could be a tactic. So I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm above them.

But I just don't love the overall the demeanor of it. It doesn't sound like they're investigating a potential murder. That's what I don't like about it. So after this, you're going to start hearing some sort of classical music being like blasted in the background. I don't know what the classical music is from. But if you asked me and I had to guess, I'm pretty sure it's Jean playing this music while she's getting ready, even though she knows there's two detectives in her home. Conducting an investigation. Conducting an official on the record interview of her fake aunt.

Can I also put one more thing out there, and we talk about this in all these cases, as investigators, when we go into a crime scene like this, you start with worst case scenario. It's always easy to dial back the investigation if evidence presents itself that would dictate that being a necessity. But you go in there treating the crime scene and everyone involved as if this was a murder. That's the top level. And then if it doesn't appear to be that, you can, you know, you can reel it in and go the direction you have to go. But you can't treat it as an accident and then decide halfway through, oh, this might be a murder. Because now it's too late, especially from a forensic from a crime scene perspective. So I just don't like that this is this early in the investigation.

And there doesn't appear to be more of a seriousness, at least on behalf of the investigators as far as their approach. Almost to set the tone like, okay, you guys are treating the, It's like a joke. This is no joke. We need you to know that a woman's life is gone. Yeah. And we're here to figure out why. We're not here to eat your cookies and have playful banter with you.

You guys at minimum are all persons of interest right now. And we want that tone set. At minimum, you guys drop the ball here. You're drinking, partying, doing stupid shit, and someone is dead. Not a laughing matter. Exactly. So Madeline, Aunt Madeline, she was. went on to say that Tam didn't seem really all that drunk or intoxicated on the night of the third.

She said Tam and another woman were actually having a really lucid discussion about how they were both from Florida and they've never changed their Florida's driver's licenses because they both love Disney World so much and having a Florida ID gets them a discount when they bring their families to Disney World. And if you know how much it is to bring a family, especially a large family like Tams, to Disney World, you would absolutely support that decision. I would do the same. And she said this conversation was happening pretty late in the night.

In fact, I believe the conversation was happening right before Madeline went to bed when they were out on the balcony, but, you know, before she came in and got the ice for Tamla. And she said Tam wasn't slurring or having a hard time keeping up. Madeline was then asked if there was anything she could think of that the detectives didn't ask her. Is there anything that you can think of that I didn't ask? you that maybe I should? Um, yes. What?

Okay. When Tam went out to a smoke pot, I went out with. Did she smoke marijuana here? Yes. Okay, that's fine. Yeah. What time was that? Right, um, I guess from, from in between the time that

that she arrived in the time that the game started. Somewhere in between that picture. Okay. Yeah. What else do you know I don't? That's the only thing. Okay. That's the only thing because to hide anything or try to conceal anything

would be so deceitful and I wouldn't be able to lay my head on a pillow tonight because I've just been praying for God to reveal some answers in this case because it's, it's, it doesn't make any sense. Well said, it doesn't make any sense from a person who was there. If that's not the overall feeling of this case and why people are so attached to it, I don't know what it is. Person from inside the building who was there that night saying, it just doesn't make sense. She's not the only person that says this, by the way.

We're going to go into it. But a lot of people at that party were like, there's no way that she fell. They were there at the party. And they're like, no, she didn't. There's no way. It doesn't make sense, right? As far as Madeline's interview, again, it's going off just basically voice analysis, which I'm not an expert in.

But she seems to be somewhat truthful at this point, appears to be composed, appears to have some type of moral compass where she's like, hey, you didn't mention this, but I think I should. Yeah, because she was smoking pot with her. Right. But now that, and I was just going to say that that could be taken as covering your own ass. Or it could be like, listen, in spite of the fact that it's going to make me not look great, I wanted to put this out there and I wanted to be truthful. So I guess it could be taken both ways. Yeah, but did you notice, Derek?

She's like, Tam went out and it was smoking pot and I went out with her. She says, I went out with her. She didn't say, I smoked with her. Do you notice there's no follow up questions from the detectives? Such as like, well, when you went out with Tam and she smoked weed, did? Did you also smoke weed? Yeah. It should have been the follow-up question.

I took it as her way of admitting she was out there smoking weed with her without saying it. Like, that's what I'm writing down. Yeah, but when you're a cop, that's not that you can't do that. I'm writing it on my notepad. It should have been a follow-up question, but that's something where you'll have someone who is around for something like this. And it's their way of kind of skirting the truth. So I think that maybe that would have been a follow-up question.

But then Jean's ass pops back in. and she's like screaming down to Madeline. She's like, are you picking up the kids? And Madeline's like, yeah, you know, I'll pick them up. What time? And she's like, and John's getting all frustrated. And then the police are like, okay, we're just going to wrap this interview up. The music playing in the background is super annoying to me.

As a cop, I would have been like, hey, can you do me a favor? Can you shut the effing music off? Yeah. I'm here trying, like, I can't think. What am I in a freaking, am I in a Panera bread right now? We could do this at the station as well. You know, that's also an option. I'm trying to help you guys out and do it in your home to make you comfortable.

And what are we supposed to believe that Jean is just so, like, classy that she's putting her makeup on. And she's like, I'm listening to Mozart. Yeah, no, I don't like it. That's what I listen to. I don't like it. But yeah, no, I mean, it would have been a follow-up question. It sounded, I read between the lines where she's admitting I was smoking weed with her out on the porch. But, yeah, you could have confirmed it by saying this is what happened.

Maybe she's using those words specifically to try to give her herself an out. Yeah. And first of all, another follow-up question would have been to clarify the timeline, which they didn't do because maybe Aunt Madeline sounds like she's being genuine to you, but her timeline at this point is completely off because remember, Madeline said Tam was smoking pot sometime after she got there and before the game started. But we've already established that the game started at 8 p.m. And Tam didn't get there until after 8 p.m. So that timeline doesn't make any sense. You know, like she smoked pot sometime after she got there and the game started. Tam didn't get there until about 30 to 45 minutes after the game started.

So what is, what are you talking about? Yeah. Are you inferring that she was smoking before she arrived at the location? Like what it was? No, because she went out and smoked with her. So the cops never clarify, hey, use. You said that she was smoking pot after she got there and before the game started. But in your first interview and earlier in this interview, you said she didn't get there until

later and the game had already started. Yeah. These are questions you have to ask. And it could be because there's something more nefarious going on or it could be what I've experienced a lot, which is just people being horrible witnesses and not having any sense of time, especially when alcohol and or drugs are involved. It's a tough one. But that's why you have reoccurring interviews to try to nail down what actually

happened. And to see if somebody's story changes or their timeline changes, which it did, and you didn't follow up. Yep. Yep. Okay. So Madeline is then going to be asked, what does she think happened? Remember? Because the last thing you heard from her is, this doesn't make sense. Let's take a quick break. And then we're going to hear from Aunt Madeline what she thinks happened. This episode of Crime Weekly is brought to you by Wild Grain. And I, we love Wild Green. We talk about all the time. They don't even need to pay us to promote this stuff. It's one of those things that quietly upgrades your life without you even realizing it at first, and it's definitely been elevating my meals. Wild grain is the first baked from frozen subscription box for sourdough

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visit wildgrain.com slash crimeweekly 30, and that's all one word, or you can use our promo code Crime Weekly 30 at checkout. Okay, we're back from our break. As I said, before the break, the detectives are like, hey, Madeline Lombardi, you say this doesn't make sense. What do you think happened? Well, you know, at first, when I saw her, it was crazy. I just thought, why is she sleeping outside?

Yeah, like she just passed that. Boy, they had a good time. Yeah, yeah. I just thought, why she's sleeping out there? And then my brain was it just like, that's not a natural way to be sleeping when she was laying, you know, with her face down. It was like, that's not natural.

And then I started thinking, it's cold out there. That ground is cold. Right. Yeah. And then after, I guess the only speculation I would have had is that she went downstairs and that she tripped over that metal piece because I'm tripped over that metal piece. So after this, Madeline was then asked, well, you know, knowing what you know now, which it's like, why the hell does she know anything now? She shouldn't know what the cops know. But knowing what you know now, what do you think happened?

And then as she starts to answer, that's when Jean interrupts the interview again. But knowing what you know now, what do you think happened? It's a baffling. Yeah. It's baffling. If you can. Yeah, if she can. So you heard Madeline say, or try to say before Jean just starts rudely yelling.

Like, are the cops still here? Yeah, bitch, they are, man. You were just here five minutes ago. But anyways, Madeline said. it's baffling. It's baffling. Yeah. So the police never return to Madeline to let her finish her answer to that question. Jean keeps talking and eventually you hear one of the detectives say, we're ending the interview, which they're probably overstimulated by these people by now. All right. So I want to go back to something we talked about last week, which was Bridget Fuller's

claim that when Tam was walking her out to leave, Tam had mentioned also wanting to leave. Now, Bridget is not the only person who talked about this because both Tom and Stacey Smith also mentioned this in their interviews with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office. Tom Smith was asked about how everyone was getting along at the party, and he said there were no signs of friction. He said Tam was not that kind of person. She was nice to everyone. Tom said he and Stacy had known Tam and her husband for about four years. Their boys played basketball and football together, and one of Tom and Stacy's sons were pretty close friends with Tam's oldest son. So out of all the people there that day, I would say that probably Tom and Stacey Smith knew Tam the best and the longest.

So Tom said that within the last year, Tam and Stacey had gotten a lot closer, and he always knew Tam as a sweet person who was going to tell you the truth whether you liked it or not. And she would do anything for anybody. Tom also said that when he and Stacey left, he was happy to see that Tam's car was still in the driveway. And he was happy because, quote, we had talked about her. driving or not driving the night before, and I had mentioned to Tam that she should stay, sleep it off, and go back the next morning. End quote. Tom's wife, Stacey, said something similar in her Forsyth County Sheriff's Office interview.

Remember, Stacey Smith had known Tam longer than anyone else at that party. She was also responsible for helping to plan the party and deciding who was going to be invited, and she was also the one hitting Bridget Fuller up for Xanax the day that Tam was found dead. Tam is kind of like the weekend before. She had been at the house and she had had wine and I told her not to drive, not drive, driving. And I mean, I don't know what else you can do. Sure.

She shouldn't have drove home and she did. And so I was very adamant about her not driving home. And so Tom had told her, you know, he did not drive. So when I got up the next morning I was so proud of her because I saw her phone and I saw her stuff there because I was terrified that she would drive. All Tam stuff sitting there. her bag and her phone and I was so proud that she stayed and I figured she was sleeping didn't even think to look in the room and I didn't right and I kicked myself for that

for a lot of it I kicked myself for not going out with her and I don't know it just spray some heart then we left and got home and I got the shower and my husband called to answer the phone because John called and he's just a great some heart and then we left and just looked at me and said, we gotta go back, and he went and he said, Tam's hurt. Yeah. And then I came back and there's been a whole hot mess since. I don't understand, like, I don't understand any of it. I don't understand how it happened. I don't understand

how, like, I don't get it at all. Like, I don't get how you fall off of a deck. I don't understand, like, I mean, I've looked and been on that deck a million times. Like, I've looked and I've tried and I've, I don't understand. I don't understand. Like I thought maybe if she was got sick or something and was vomiting and maybe she was leaning over, maybe that's how she did it. I seriously don't get it.

I don't understand any of it. And I'll tell you, we don't. We don't either. I wish somebody had a camera or some just, so we know. I mean, how does stuff like this happen? Like, this is just. Just freak things happen. I mean, like you said.

if she leaned over and was trying to throw up or thought she was going to throw up. Maybe she sat up on the rail and was smoking or just, who knows? I mean, depending on how out of it she was. She wasn't acting sick. She wasn't, I mean, you're laughing. I mean, like, she was just not acting under the norm. Like, I mean, and all she would, I mean, she would always tell us,

I can handle my alcohol, I can handle my alcohol. And I'm like, well, you're just, You can handle so much better than me because this girl's got to get up in the morning. Right. And, you know, we had to actually get up. I mean, I'm just like, I don't understand. I don't. I don't.

Well, that's why we're going back in the interview and everybody. Absolutely. Make sure we understand completely, but we may not ever know exactly what happened. But everything points that she went over that rail, how that happened is the confusion. And I know we had the gas tank because we tried to light the fire pit. that night and we couldn't figure it out and I'm not sure oh I just I don't get it because I mean that Jose said maybe she stood on that for some reason or I think we've just all racked our brains just trying to figure out how this is it going to

happen to our friend and now it's like all of us are like yeah no parties we're not no mm-mm-mm-mm-mm-no no I guess we're gonna all have to sleep in a palate if we ever do it, go hang out again. I just... She wasn't acting sad or... No. Or angry or... No.

I don't know. Just don't understand. I don't understand how this happened is sleep over. Like, I get how you go to a restaurant, people have drinks, and then if they job irresponsible, I get how bad things happen like that, but I don't get... Yeah, we're gonna be in response. We were too...

And that was the goal of the whole thing was... was everybody's going to be responsible and have fun and just be girls and that's what we wanted to do was be silly and laugh and dance and we did I just I wish I would have went out there with her and not let her go out there by herself but I honestly did not know that she was that bad off I didn't know that she had I knew she had drank but I wasn't keeping up with it and so she had actually said you heard her say something about going outside right before you went to bed? Yeah, she told me she was going outside to smoke before she went to bed.

Okay. And I said, okay, well, go outside of smoke and go to bed. I'm not a smoker. Yes. I'm like, Ms. Anti-smoker, actually. And so she came up, and, I mean, she came up behind me and told me she was going to smoke. And so last time I saw her. Sometimes just things happen.

There's just no explanation for it. But you can't blame yourself. It's hard. All right. So a couple things I'll make it short that I, that stand out to me here first. And I'm going to be really focusing on the investigators because that's why I'm here, right? I was hoping so. Yeah.

That's why I'm here. And this is not what you're supposed to do. Very simple. I know, right? You're going over theories with a potential suspect. I don't understand it. I'm shaking my head as I'm watching it. And I don't like it.

And I think in hindsight, if these guys are on the up and up, they would do that over again. because putting out there what you believe happened that this was some freak accident, you're giving them out, you're giving them ammunition to use as part of a collaborative effort to hide something that may be more than just a tragic accident. So that's number one. And also he's saying like, you can't blame yourself, you know? Like he's like comforting her? What the hell is this?

I don't mind the comforting as much. I hate the discussion of potential theories with people who are witnesses at minimum. I hate that because now, again, at minimum, you're in. influencing what they may remember. That's not what you're supposed to do. Tell me what you know, not what you believe. That's the number one. How often do I say that to you, right? And they're like, we may never know. We may never know. And you're also telling them where you are. It's your job to find out. Yeah. There isn't a responsibility as the interviewer, as the interrogator, as the investigator, however you want to put it, to create a level of uneasiness where the person you're speaking with doesn't know what you

know. Right. So as they're sitting there, if they have more to hide, they're consciously, wondering how much does he know, right? Does he already, does he already know what happened? Are they onto us? So maybe they'll break. But when you're showing your hand, basically saying, we got nothing, we don't know what happened. We were still in cameras. That puts them in a position of power. I'm talking about the interviewee where they now know you're grasping at straws. So that's one thing. Another thing that I want to address, and we're going to get to it in the end of the series, but as far as potential theories, as we start to kind of break them down and the potential that that's what occurred. When we're talking about a freak accident, it's still on the table,

of course, but when we think about what could have caused her to go over, for me at this point, unless you throw a curveball at me and tell me that there was vomit underneath her body, I've kind of ruled out the possibility that this was due to her throwing up over the railing, because due to anecdotal experience, I think every one of us out there has experienced this once in their life, when you're going to throw up and it comes on out of nowhere unexpectedly, if you're going to assume that she ran over to the railing because she had to throw up and the momentum carried her over the railing, sure, you're going to find vomit on the ground somewhere out in that yard. That's basically as soon as she's running to the railing, she's almost throwing up as she's running to the railing or leaning over it. And so you would expect to find vomit on the ground.

The fact that you haven't found any of that at this point in the story, I basically ruled that out as a cause, as a reason for her going over if that's what I. occurred here. So that's off the table for me. The only other thing I wanted to mention, which I kind of glanced over last episode, not understanding the layout, there is a photo of the balcony where I think I referred to it as a table. But if you look closer, you can see that it's, that's the grill. That's the fire pit that they're referring to. It's not like your traditional fire pit. It's like a gas propane powered fire pit that we've all seen in the middle of a table that kind of goes up in the middle there. And that's where you can see the propane tank near the railing itself. So I just wanted to clarify that. But those are my initial thoughts.

And did you hear he asked her like, well, did she seem sad at all? Almost like suggesting maybe she intentionally threw herself off the balcony. Like what? It's a fine line. But again, I don't like the questioning because you're giving them outs. If they're trying to figure out a way to get you off the scent, you're giving them options, which I don't love. At this point, it should be more about gathering information, not providing it. But it's almost like, oh, he said at one point, it was just a freak accident.

You know, you can't blame yourself. But then he's also asking questions to make it seem like, well, maybe she did this to herself. Did she seem sad? Would you say it's fair to make the observation that early on initially during these first interviews, the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office was not actually treating these partygoers as if they were potential suspects or persons of interest? I'll take it a step further. They didn't treat this as a potential homicide, period. They were treating it as a freak accident.

Which it might not be. but as you have said multiple times, you can't go into a crime scene or an investigation already ruling out something until you've investigated. It is very possible to treat it as a homicide and gear it down, you know, transition to an accident. It is impossible to start off as an accident and then transition to a homicide.

You can try it, but I can guarantee you the investigation is going to be flawed. And probably if it goes to trial, you got no shot. Because you didn't treat it like it should have been at first. So yes, looking at what we've looked at so far and just listening to these interviews, you can tell that the perspective of these detectives going in, their initial thought was, oh, man, tragic accident.

These poor people had to witness this. How terrible for them. And there's another option, right? Maybe not a tragic accident that no one saw and everyone's confused. Maybe not an intentional murder. But maybe an accident that more than one person at that party witnessed and they freaked out and tried to cover it up. Right.

We've heard multiple mentions of Tam wanting to leave, right? How often have you or I or anybody else been in a situation where a friend or family member has had too much to drink and they want to go drive home or they want to go somewhere where you know it's not good for them. And you're almost getting in a physical altercation with them to prevent them from leaving. Yeah, like hiding their keys. Yeah, all these different things. We've all been there.

Don't act like you haven't. We've all been there. They're all mentioning this. Right there could be the secret sauce. But then they all go to bed and leave her alone, which would have given her a perfect opportunity to leave. Of course. Someone would have been monitoring her at that point. Instead of going outside to smoke a cigarette, she would have grabbed her keys and walked Bridget out the door and then they're like, all right, I'm going home. I think it's an important point that you make where there's a gradient here. It's a spectrum. The bottom being a freak accident, an anomaly, a once in a lifetime thing that just happened to occur. Makes sense to nobody.

Right. The other end is a premeditated homicide, right? And then there's somewhere in the middle where it may just be a tragic accident, but involved multiple people who are now trying to cover their tracks. So they even, you know, I want to go back to, and we had talked about this, I think last night on the phone, somebody said, you said you saw a theory where Tam had been walking down the stairs from the top level of the balcony down and that maybe she fell as she was going down the stairs. Yeah, there's no railing there or something like that. There's no railing. However, there's also no dirt or anything on her white Dalmatian pajamas except for that one spot on her butt. So then that one spot on her butt, it makes people say, well, what if she was sitting on the railing and then fell off? I would venture to say, why the hell would she be sitting on the railing when she's alone out there, number one, when there's chairs all over that balcony, you can see them. Yeah, it wouldn't be a smart decision.

I would almost wonder because the dust and the debris was wiped off the top of that oil tank or that gas tank, the one that they keep talking about. Yeah, they keep talking about that tank. It was wiped off. So the tank itself was dusty, but the top wasn't. Maybe she perched herself on that, and she was sitting there, and that's how her butt got dirty. But I don't think she fell down the stairs because you'd see different areas of dirt on her body. and the injuries on her shin or both of her shins, they wouldn't add up with that kind of fall

because they do line up with that landscape divider. I guess my question to you would be, because you know more about it than me, but just looking at the photos, is it possible that she goes down the stairs? She's injured significantly. And there's not a lot of dirt on her onesie or her pajamas because for the most part,

she's kind of on that concrete pad before falling onto the dirt itself, which is after that landscape track that's there that Madeline mentioned tripping on in the past. Is that possible? I don't know if the injuries on her shin would be that extensive from a ground level fall onto that landscaping thing. Yeah. And also, I mean, if she fell down the stairs, you wouldn't assume that she would come to a landing at the bottom of the stairs on her feet, right? You wouldn't. No. She'd probably fall on her knees, maybe even, you know, on her side or something like that. And then she'd have to stand up again in order to like stumble to be able to fall over that landscape divider. Yeah.

If that's what happened here, that would fall in the category of just a once in a lifetime thing. Now, you and I were talking on the phone about this. And that's something I said where there are, and these cases are far and few between, right? It's not the norm where something did occur that is just an analysis. anomaly. Just like it's such a rarity. It's almost hard for the human brain to comprehend because it's so unlikely. But I think everybody out there would acknowledge that, yeah, those circumstances do exist. So the question we all have to ask ourselves. What do you mean? What are you saying that she fell off the balcony unaided just accidentally in a freak accident for some reason? That is like the anomaly you're

talking about? That would be one. Yeah. Or some other just perfect set of tragic circumstances where she did somehow go down the stairs because there was no railing. And the injuries that were inflicted because of it left certain damage, but not others that you would expect. And due to a severe concussion and multiple fractures, she succumbed to her injuries as she reached the grass. I, again, I'm acknowledging very unlikely. So the injuries happened from the, the injuries happened from the fall down the stairs. Yeah, down the stairs. Yeah.

But there's no blood there. No blood. No blood. And these are things that you would expect, right? So I'm trying to stay balanced. Also, no blood where her body came to rest, allegedly. Well, there wasn't a lot of lacerations from what you described to me, right? It was more internal injuries, correct?

Yeah, there were lacerations on her face, yeah. Lacerations on her face, but not significant, right? They were more superficial. The injuries to her face? Yeah. I wouldn't call them superficial, but yeah, I guess you're not going to leave a pool of blood. Not a pool of blood, yeah. But if you have this hemorrhage, she had different types of hemorrhages,

Would you think that given the time they believe it happened and the time that her body was found, that some blood would have come out of her mouth, her nose? You would expect it, yeah. Yeah. I think my bigger issue with this case is not so much in this, and what we're speculating about kind of plays to this, which is why I'm bringing it up. It seems like a lot of time was spent by the lead investigators interviewing potential suspects. That they didn't treat like suspects. I think there should have been a lot more emphasis placed on using her body to determine what happened, right?

Don't go to the people who could be involved. Biomechanical engineers, pathologists, people of that nature coming in and trying to recreate what potentially happened. Because once you figure that out, then you know the line of questioning you want to ask. So you haven't mentioned to me at any point during this story that some type of biomechanical engineer was brought in to recreate this crime scene to try to understand. based on those injuries, what potential theories are in play? Yeah, to try to recreate the potential things that could have happened. Based on the injuries, right? That would have been the main emphasis of my investigation.

There's always an opportunity to go back and question everybody. You still want to do it in a timely manner. There should have been a documented history of investigators bringing in experts who could take her injuries and then give us a list of potential theories that would be aligned with her injuries. And there wasn't. And so that's a problem. It seems like from day one, they were kind of writing it off as an accident.

I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. Hardly. She fell over the landscape divider. And then the, the ME was like, no, that's not possible. It's more likely she, her injuries are more consistent with falling off the balcony.

And Mike Christian's like, okay, then that's what happened. And the number one question I would ask is, was the pathologist out at the scene? No, they were not. And from what I understand, I personally believe pathologists are great. You need a biomechanical engineer. I think there was somebody from the ME's office there, but not the person who did the autopsy, because my Christian had to explain to them, like, how high the balcony was and this, isn't that yet. I know I'm going to say it a million times, biomechanical engineer all day long to tell based on the body, how it works, how the hinge points are, where she was found, what's around the area, what potential theories are we looking at?

What are physically possible, right? Not speculation, not conjecture. what theories are actually possible based on how the body moves. Simple. It sounds like common sense, but bring someone in. Let them tell you, yep, based on her injuries, based on how she was laying, this theory is possible, that theory is possible, this one's possible. That wasn't done. Okay, so we heard from Stacey Smith.

She seems very broken up about this. She, like Aunt Madeline, she's like, how could this have happened? I don't understand. It doesn't make sense. And this is also the same interview where Stacey admitted to having a puff of Tam's weed, even though remember, she's, I'm so against smoking. I'm this non-smoker. You know, she's very much like Bridget, like I would never drink. I would never act like a fool. And Stacey said that Marcy and Aunt Madeline may have also smoked the weed because they were out on the balcony with Tam for a long time while she was smoking. Now, this is interesting because earlier Madeline, and said that it was Stacy who was out on the balcony with them. And Stacy's like, well, I was out there for a minute, but Marcy was also out there. And it's just everybody's kind of trying to like act like their, you know, Mother Teresa's and this.

So then Stacy was asked how much Tam had to drink. And earlier in the interview, she had told the police that when Tam got there and opened the tequila, she smelled Tam's tequila. And she was like, oh, this smells gross. It's too much for me. So Stacy stuck to her vodka and spright. Stacey also said, quote, there was a lot going on with that bottle, end quote, meaning, I guess, that she didn't really know how much Tam had consumed of the bottle or who else may have, you know, had tequila from that bottle. Yeah, that's my interpretation, yep.

Yeah, she also mentions that she knows that Marcy took at least one shot from the tequila, but other than that, she didn't really see anyone else drink any tequila. So like I said, Stacey seems really at a loss for how this could have even happened. She doesn't understand how someone can just fall off a balcony like that. The police detectives seem equally confused. They actually say, I don't know if you heard it, but they're like, yeah, we don't get it either. No, yeah, they're like, I wish we had cameras. Insinuating, we got nothing. Yeah.

Now, I want to ask you because obviously all of these interviews are happening days after the incident, and clearly all the people at the party have had a chance to talk and speculate about what could have happened. And we know that because Stacey mentioned the propane tank. And how Jose said maybe she stood on that for some reason. they were all racking their brains. Now, given how things went down and also given how the police are admitting to Stacey that this does not seem like an open and shut accident, should the people present at the party have been allowed to talk so extensively before sitting down for formal interviews with law enforcement? No, you would have advised them to keep your

distance until we have an opportunity to speak with you. Ideally, in a perfect scenario, there would have been a reconstruction going on at the house almost immediately. bringing people in who are impartial witnesses, who are experts in those field, recreating potential scenarios to see which ones were most likely based on the injuries to Tam's body. At the same time, again, perfect world simultaneously, you would have taken initial interviews from each and every person there, understanding that at minimum, they're witnesses, but they're also potentially suspects. So you'd want those two things going on at the same time, but preferably I would like the reconstruction

to be completed and have those results so that I can. can use those tools to my advantage during the interview process. Okay, so we're going to talk about this later, but according to a neighbor, all of these party people went back to Jean Meyer's house like every day for two weeks after this happened. And they were all talking all the time. Yeah, and you could look at that multiple ways, but at minimum, now you're getting, you're muddying the water, right? You want independent accounts of what occurred. And now they're hearing from other people and that could influence their perspective on what they remember and how they remember it. So on one end, it's bad from a witness standpoint.

On the other end, if there's some type of collaborative effort going on to cover something up, now they're getting the opportunity to kind of tighten up that story and make sure it aligns. So let's say there's not a collaborative effort. Let's say one person at that party did something wrong. Let's just say it's Jose, for example's sake. Okay. Jose goes outside after everyone goes to bed, him and Tam have a thing. Let's say allegedly.

He makes a move on her. She's mad. He pushes her, not meaning to push her over the balcony, she falls. And now Jose, in the days after this happens, he could have also pushed off of him. Yeah, maybe. But he's talking to everybody and he's like, well, maybe she stood on the pro-painting. From a witness standpoint of all these people now accurately telling the police the events in the timeline of that night, that's muddied the waters by the one person, yeah, by the one person who has something to cover up.

And he's in everyone's ear like, well, maybe this could have happened and maybe this could have happened. Of course. Yeah. So that's interesting. Shout out to the traders. That's kind of the same thing, right? Where you have traitors there that are basically the murderers, right, amongst the faithful. And they're spreading stories and rumors. And all of a sudden the faithful are regurgitating those stories, believing that it's something they heard or saw at the roundtable. Again, if you're not watching the you have no clue what I'm talking about, but it's the same thing. It's the same thing where you're right. They can poison the well. And now these other witnesses are relaying this information to law enforcement as if it's from their perspective. As if it's from their perspective,

but it's not. They don't even know that it's not. Yeah. And maybe that's where some of that confusion comes in, right? So in her interview with the Georgia Bureau of Investigations, so this is after the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office have closed out their whole investigation, and then, you know, GBI takes over when everyone's like, this needs to be reopened. So this is her interview with the GBI. John Myers also said that Tomla wanted to leave the night of the third. She said that when everyone started getting ready to go to bed, Tomla said she was going to go home, that she felt okay and she was okay to drive, right?

And John told Tam, hey, you might feel like you're okay, but you're not. You wouldn't pass a sobriety test. None of us would. You know, they're all convincing her to stay. and Jean said that Tom and Stacey, who were close to Tam, convinced her to stay and not drive home, which we've heard pretty much the same thing from Tom and Stacy. However, I do want to take a closer look at the timeline in question because there's some things that don't add up and there's some things that were set in initial interviews that came out in further interviews and then interviews with

the GBI that don't align with what was said in the initial interviews. So we're going to do that, but let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor. IQ Bar protein bars, IQ Mix, hydration mixes, and IQ Joe mushroom coffees are the delicious low sugar, brain and body fuel you need to win your day. Yeah, and I feel like there are two types of people, right? The ones who have their day perfectly planned out and then the rest of us. Even if I try to plan my day out, it never works. And every day is chaotic.

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weekly, W-E-E-K-L-Y to 64,000 message and data rates may apply C-Terms for details. Okay, we're back. So let's take a closer look at that timeline and question. And this is the short period between 1.30 a.m. and 157 a.m. So we know that Jose told Forsyth County Sheriff's Office deputies that he and Jean went to bed around 1.30 a.m. In her interview with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office on November 9th, 2018, Jean said that it was around 1 a.m. when they started getting Jennifer Morel in bed because remember Jen was wasted and everybody had to take care of her. And Marcy was getting Jennifer Morrell to bed on the first floor. And then, everyone else went upstairs, leaving Jean, Jose, Tom, Stacey, Bridgett, and Tam downstairs on the main floor.

So around 1.30, Jean said she was going to bed because she was tired, and Tam started talking to Stacy, telling Stacy that she was going to sleep with her, and then Stacy's husband, Tom, said, no, she's sleeping with me. Jean said Bridget was there, and she either made Tam a bowl of gumbo or Tam made it for herself, and then Bridget had called her husband Gary to come pick her up. Jean said that Tam walked Bridget to the front door because the door log shows the front door opening and closing at 147 a.m. And so Jean assumed that this was Bridget Fuller leaving. Now Forsyth County Sheriff's Office spoke to Jose on November 9th, 2018.

And remember, we talked about this last time, he said he turned the TV on in the main level bedroom for Jennifer and Marcy around 1 a.m. He then went down to the basement to get his cell phone charger. And when he came back up from the basement, he saw Tam in the kitchen. He said he saw her by herself in the kitchen, and then he went upstairs, and this would have been about 1.30 a.m. Now, unlike what we may have believed and what we were kind of led to believe during the initial round of Forsyth County Sheriff's interviews, Jose and Jean did not go upstairs to bed together at 1.30 a.m. It was kind of made to seem like Jean and Tom and Stacey were talking to Tam and the kitchen and Bridget Fuller was making gumbo.

and then Jose ran down to the basement to get his cell phone charger. And then when he came up, he and Jean went up to bed together. But that's not really what happened. According to Jean's interview with the GBI, so this is not her Forsyth County Sheriff's interview. This is her later GBI interview. They initially did go upstairs together. And they were talking to Paula because Paula's sleeping on the upstairs where Jean and Jose sleep. But then Jose remembered he needed to get his cell phone charger.

So he went down to the basement. leaving Jean on the second floor of the house, the bedroom floor. Now, there is one bedroom on the main floor, and that's where Marcy and Jennifer Morel are sleeping in that one bedroom on the main floor. And that's also the floor with the balcony is? With the kitchen and the balcony, yes. Around 1, 1.30, everybody kind of go to bed at the same time then?

Yeah, we all went to bed about the same time. I went up. Stacey went up. Stacey and Tom went up. Paula was up. Jose and I were up there because we were actually in the room talking to Paula about some other crazy stuff

and Jose said I have to get my charger when we all went upstairs Bridget was cleaning she had heated up my aunt had made gumbo and stuff she was heating up gumbo so when I went upstairs Bridget was cleaning the kitchen Tam was sitting on the other end of the island eating a bowl of gumbo

and she just, Bridget said, Gary's on his way. And Tam said, I'm going to eat this and then I'm going to have a cigarette. And then I'll be up. We were upstairs. Jose said, oh, my charger's in the basement or something. And he said he went down.

I saw him go down. And then he came right back up. There was like not a delay or a lag of him coming to bed. and we finished talking to Paula and we were talking about Jen, her behavior and then went to bed

and that's it so as far as you're concerned Jose like the time it took him he went straight down the basement got the charger and came back up yeah it was pretty quick to go down two flights of stairs and come back did he get up at all during the night no how about you did you get up at all No. Like, admittedly, I was drinking. I wasn't. It wasn't like I passed out. I went to bed.

Right. Do you know, did Jose say anything like when he came back up? Do you know if Bridget was still there when he came back up? She was. I think so. I think he's like Bridget's still cleaning or something like that. Yeah, you can see what the investigators trying to do there. And by the way, that's a good. Because it's the GBI. Yeah, this is a good interview. You can clearly see the difference in quality, right? It's very matter of fact. It's to the point. And there are also, you can, you can. tell what they're trying to do. And even, even John can tell what she's trying to do, right? She's trying to isolate everybody to put down an opportunity where Jose or somebody else was alone with Tam. Exactly. That's exactly what she's doing here. She's asking those questions to say, hey, was there ever a window, even if only for a couple minutes, where Jose was unaccounted for

by anybody? Bridget already being gone, Jose being downstairs alone with Tam. So you can see what the investigator is doing here, which is what they're supposed to do. Mm-hmm. Now, did you hear what Jean said? Because according to John, when Jose came back up, he told her that Bridget was still there and she was still cleaning. Yep, which is critical to this case because that would give Jose an alibi, right? He more than likely if he had went outside with Tam, Bridget is the last person to see Tam alive if Tam is the one that walks Bridget out the door before she leaves. This would align with the timeline of Bridget leaving at 147 a.m. and being the last person to see Tam alive if Jose, was upstairs and going to bed by 130. Correct. However, those who have an issue with these contradicting statements point out that Jose never told

the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office that he saw Bridget when he came back up from the basement. He said he only saw Tam in the kitchen. And if that's the case, these people say maybe Jose came up from the basement after Bridget had already left, meaning he technically would be the last person to have seen Tam alive. Yeah, pretty important, right? Yeah. So if Tam walks Bridget out and Bridget left at 147 a.m. And she walks Bridget out and then she goes back in the kitchen and she's eating her gumbo. Right. And then Jose comes up from the basement. Suddenly this changes the dynamic game. Yeah. Yeah. And this would be a simple question to ask Bridget. What would be a simple question? I mean, how would Bridget know if she left after Jose came back upstairs? But my point being, if Jose went down to the basement and then on his way back up, he sees Bridgett.

and Tam in the kitchen and then goes up to the upstairs and says, yeah, Bridget was downstairs. Cleaning still, yeah. Yeah, the interview with Bridget would be, hey, while you were out there with Tam making the gumbo, cleaning up, did Jose come up from the basement and head back upstairs? And if she says, yes, I saw him come up from the basement. He had his charger. And then he went upstairs. That would corroborate his story, especially if Jean tells us he never went back downstairs

after that. So if she, if Bridget lays out the timeline that, yes, Jose came up from. from the basement. I saw him. He had his charger. And then a few moments later, Tam walked me out. Then that would corroborate his story. Well, I'm going to look for that in the interviews. It would make sense, right? Yeah, and I will come back to that. But now, if she says I never saw Jose, Jose got a problem. Yeah, I want to see if the GBI asked Bridget that. That would be interesting. Would seem like a common sensical question, right? You're trying to verify Jose's story. If he said he saw Bridget and Tam, well, then Bridget and Tam would have saw him.

But listen, Jose and Jean went upstairs to bed and they were talking to Paula. And then that's when Jose was like, oh, shit, I forgot my cell phone charger downstairs. And that's when he goes downstairs. So Bridget could have technically seen Jose go upstairs and not knowing that he had come back down after. Right. Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying. So that would ruin Jose's story because he's saying Bridget was still there. But if Bridget was already gone, then how would that happen?

Are we saying the same thing here? I mean, yeah, but I'm saying Bridget could technically tell GBI, oh, yeah, I saw Jose go upstairs. Right. But. You're saying that would have been the first time. Yeah, it could have been the first time. And then she left. And that's why when Jose came up from the basement and he told Forsyth County Sheriff's

office, I only saw Tam in the kitchen. Yeah. I mean, it would be, this is just a, this would, this would, wishful thinking. If Bridget was able to tell you, yeah, he had his charger cord, his block, the charger block in his hand, that would obviously be a slam dunk. That would help. But what's the chances she's going to remember? Yeah, that she would remember.

And also, who's to say that she would even say anything that would implicate Jose, who is somebody that she actually likes and is friends with, if it means, if she thinks he's genuinely innocent and she doesn't want to say something that might potentially make him look not innocent because she believes he's innocent and she doesn't really like him. Well, let's take it a step further, right? John, who is in a relationship with Jose, if you're to believe that Jose somehow involved, she's saying that Jose came back upstairs and he never left the room. Fast, yes.

If Jose had gone back downstairs to put Tam to bed and there was an accident where she doesn't want to go inside, she wants to leave and Jose's struggling with her and there's an accident, how do we know Jose didn't confide in John and say, oh my God, I'm going to go to jail for this and now Jean's covering for him. So that's why you've got to rely on the science. That's why I keep going back to reconstruction. Everybody in that house has an incentive to potentially lie. So we can't base anything off we're deducing from this off witness testimony because, We're talking to witnesses who could also be suspects. And also, Jean might not even know because, like, she said, well, like, I didn't, like, pass out or anything, but I did have stuff to drink. I had some drinks, yeah.

Yeah, so you fall asleep when you're drunk. Are you going to notice? Yeah, are you going to notice if Jose gets up after that at any point? No, I mean, that's also possible. But, like, it would make more sense to me. If we had a crystal ball and we were able to see what happened, if I told you that Jean knew what happened and she was covering for Jose because it was an accident. she didn't want to see the person she's in love with go to prison for a crime he didn't commit. Would it be reasonable to assume that she lied to law enforcement to help him?

No, that wouldn't be crazy. You wouldn't go, oh, my God, I'm clutching my pearls. I'm so surprised. No, I wouldn't. Yeah. So, I mean, I think there are people even watching this channel who might say if we pose the question, yeah, I would do the same. You know, I mean, so that's also on the table here. There's so.

That's why like. If you thought it was an accident and you thought, yeah. Yeah, if you, that's how you justify it. I'm lying to law enforcement, not because Jose's a murderer, but because he was trying to help her. He was trying to get her to bed and something went south. Now, is that what happened? No, maybe that's what Jose told her. So there's so many scenarios here, which again is why you got to rely on the science, not the testimony.

All right, but let's go back to that very, very slim timeline. Yeah, so it's a small window of opportunity. So there's a book by a woman named Michelle Graves. Michelle was Tam's very close friend. Michelle was able to get the entire case file through a FOIA request. And she wrote in her book, Search for the Truth, that the garage door opened and closed multiple times between 132 a.m. and 140 a.m. And Jeanne couldn't really account for why this had happened because, remember, everyone was going to bed at that time. Apparently, according to Jean, most people were upstairs by 1.30.

Now, this was not included in the police investigation, but there is body cam footage where Jean was asked about the garage door. and she suggested that Jose went out to get water from the garage, and Jose says, who, me? Because reportedly, at that time, according to Jose, he was getting his cell phone charger from the basement. He was not getting water from the garage. Additionally, Jean had told Officer Waldrop on the scene that Bridget had left out of the garage door at 140 a.m.

And then one of Jean's attorneys provided a letter to the GBI stating that Bridget left through the garage door at 140 a.m. And we know she didn't. She left out the front door. So Jean was asked extensive questions about these time discrepancies, along with information about her camera system, and who may have had access to these things during her GBI interview. Let me ask you about what kind of switch gears a little bit, your cameras, which I know this has been a... They're rechargeable, Arlo cameras. They're not ones with batteries. I had gotten them when I was going through my divorce because my ex-husband was.

come in the house when I wasn't there. We were on good terms. I have given my Arlo login and password because they send emails when they're dying or you need to have 10% or an outstanding recharge them. And my aunt and her cleaning and organizing had misplaced that charger. She didn't realize that it was for those cameras.

She just saw that it wasn't an apple and we all have apples, so we don't know where she had put it. And since things were fine with my ex and I, I really wasn't concerned. You remember about what time it was that you were, like, around the time of, like, what month, whatever that you were looking for the charger and couldn't find them? I want to say probably August, but I think the police, for Seid County, got the emails and everything. Okay. I've turned all that over, but I want to say August.

Okay, so here is a screenshot of the email that Jean sent to Mike Christian of the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office on November 19, 2018. The email says, quote, Mike, this is the last one I have. I must have deleted the others. I will see if I can somehow recover them. I am not tech savvy. If you would like to have a person or detective research it, end quote. And then she goes on to give the web address along with her username and password for the Arlo camera system. Now, the email sent to Jean from Arlo happened on August 18th, 2018. The subject says, your Arlo battery is tired and reads, quote, uh-oh, Jean, your Arlo is running low on battery.

You've still got about 15% of juice left, but in order to maintain uninterrupted peace of mind, we recommend charging up the device as soon as you can. End quote. So we had talked about this a little bit, and you were talking about the cameras last time, and what kind of batteries they took. And so according to Jeanne, they were rechargeable. And because her aunt Madeline just cleans everything so much, the charger was misplaced. And she couldn't find it.

And so she was getting emails saying, hey, your camera battery is about to die. But at that point, her and her ex-husband were fine again. So she wasn't really too concerned about recharging the cameras. Well, first off, as we're starting to narrow down potential scenarios, even online, I haven't seen much mention of some type of premeditated murder, right? If this is a homicide, I feel like what happened here was probably in the moment, right? And so for these cameras not to be charged, if we're believing that this is somehow connected to what happened to Tam, we would have to believe that they intended on killing her and they let those cameras run out intentionally.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that, that this was the motive behind having this get together. But am I going to sit here and say, with 100% certainty, it's not possible? Of course, not. I never do. But when it comes to the cameras, it seems like an innocent, an innocent mistake. And if there's anything that we collectively can take from this, don't buy battery, battery operated cameras. Like, if I don't care what brand you go with, we have recommendations for what systems we think are the best. We've talked about Simply Safe numerous times on this channel. I'll tell you with my personal security system without giving you guys too many details. I have a

bunch of hardwired cameras. However, there was, there is one specific camera that I got with my set that's battery operated. And I'm very disciplined about charging it because I'm a freak about those things. But I will tell you, if there's ever been a lapse or a day or two where that camera wasn't working, it's because I didn't get the chance to charge it. So for future reference, if there's anything you take out of this case, that's just you can apply to your own life, make sure you don't buy the battery operated cameras. I don't care what brand it is. You're going to forget, it's going to create a lapse in the timeline, not what you want in your house. But I guess my question to you would be, Stephanie, do you believe there's more?

to this? Do you believe that there's, it's too much of a coincidence? I think there is more to this because Jean says, this is the last EMAI have, and it's from August of 2018. So August, September, about three months before. Yeah, so the cameras weren't up and running for about, let's just call it two and a half months if they died after that 15%. Yeah, I looked it up and they said that the Arlo camera system, about 15% battery would get you about three to four weeks. So that would mean that at some point, after that August 18th email, Arlo most likely sent her another email being like, uh-oh, Jean. You're at 5%. You're at 10%. You're at 5%. Uh-oh, Jean, your cameras are completely down now.

You are no longer protected anyway. And Jean is saying, oh, I will see if I can get other emails. I must have deleted them. I'll see if I can recover them. I guess my question would be if you know that the cameras are not operating. Well, what's even the point in having them? Or did they charge them back up at some point after that August 18th, 2018 email from Arlo? But then they deleted the emails that were saying afterwards like, uh-oh, Jean, in September, you have 85% battery or you have, and they just didn't want those emails to be seen by the police. Well, yeah, it's a great question and one that would be answered very, very easily.

It's a cloud-based system. Arlo has the ability to tell you how much battery life is left on the cameras themselves, hence the reason they're able to send those emails. They would also be able to tell you if they were recharged at any point because once you recharge them, you no longer receive those notifications. So I, again, would not take the word of the people involved as the investigating agency. I would have gone to Arlo. I would have issued a subpoena, a search warrant by a judge, to determine the activity on those

cameras, not go off some email provided by persons of interest. So you go to Arlo and you find your answers. Right. So here's the thing. Jean gives the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, my Christian. She gives him her Arlo username and password. Yep. That email that she sent him is included in the case file.

As far as I can tell, there's no follow up with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office of whether they signed in and actually followed up or just took her word for it. If they didn't sign in, it's again a misstep and egregious misstep because you could easily confirm not, by logging in, because, again, I don't know if things can be deleted on that end. I would go directly to Arlo, and I would have an administrative subpoena or search warrant issued where Arlo would provide me with any activity on those camera devices for the past four months. And we would easily be able to determine within a day or two after getting those results back if those cameras were last charged on the date in question. And probably the GBI wanted to do that, but the fact of the matter is they are investigating this a year and a half later. And as we know from cloud-based systems,

that data may have been deleted. It may have been overwritten. I hope that wouldn't be the case. I don't have the answer to that. I would like to think that they would still have it. But you're right. It could be like a three-month window before that they can no longer retrieve that data. Well, here's some more questions that the GBI had for Jean, which when we're done listening to this, I want you to tell me whether you think the GBI went to Arlo or, went to Arlo and were unable to get the data, and that's why they're asking these questions. And all the other times on the door, that was all from the Xfinity security system. Okay, so those are two different systems.

Yes, ma'am. That was more to monitor my kids not sneaking out. And all the Xfinity passwords and everything I've turned over also. Because when we tried to call, I'm sure you've seen the first day screenshot of the times. The first page in that binder. When we tried to call, like, later that night or the next day, Mike Christian and I had talked about getting a lengthy, a more in-depth picture of times everybody left,

but I could only pull up 30 a day, like after 30, I believe, was the number. That then you have to go on the site, request it. And so that's why I had given them the password and the login information for that. So they could see exactly to match up the times, I guess, that the other people said they left. Okay. I don't know if you know to answer this question, because there's been some discrepancy with the times, and I know the time changed. I know the time changed that night, which makes it even more complicated. Do you know with Xfinity?

Does that time, did they automatically update that time? Or? I don't. I don't. Because that's the screenshot from that night. Because that shows when she went out. And then that's Bridget leaving. And that's Bridget putting leftovers in the garage fridge.

So I don't know. I don't know. Honestly, I can't answer that. That's time. Who all had access to your Arlo stuff? or Arlo stuff, like, who got notifications? Me. Okay.

Do anybody else have access to that, like have your passwords and stuff? No. You mean before all of this? Yes. Yeah, just me. What about the Xfinity door time stuff? You're the lunches.

Was Jose aware of, did he have access to any of that? Was he able to log on to any of that or check your cameras, anything like that? No. Did he know that your cameras weren't recording at the time, do you know? You had told him that they weren't.

He had helped me try to turn the house upside down and look for the dang charger. Yeah, so it's clear here. They weren't able to go back and obtain documentation from Arlo or Exfinity to confirm any of this. It's too much time has passed, at least of what it appears like because in this interview, you would have asked these questions and then you would have provided the documentation to say, hey, Jean, it's interesting that you say this and that your cameras were last charged at this point because, you know, I have data from Arlo saying that your cameras were charged after that day. What do you think about that?

Were you aware of that? There would be follow-up questions to try to see if they had an answer for it. So, yeah, unfortunate, that's the case. But if you will notice there's a common theme as far as my investigative approach, which is whenever you have witnesses that you're relying on, I try to take it out of their hands and rely on science and technology because that is impartial. It's unbiased and it's going to tell me exactly what it can make out of the evidence that I have.

When you're relying on people, they have the ability to be deceptive, depending on their intentions depending on their motive. So unfortunately with Forsyth, they clearly didn't do their job, just from an investigative perspective and GBI is trying to play catch up with half the pieces to the puzzle. That's my assessment up to this point in the story. Okay, so just to clarify, the Arlo camera system was just the cameras. And when she's talking about Xfinity, that's the system that's keeping track of when the doors are opened, closed, et cetera. They're two separate systems. That would be your magnetic sensors on the doors, windows, glass break sensors, motion sensors, depending on the system they had.

Now it's interesting because the GBI agent is asking, Jean, did anybody else have access to your Arlo camera system? Yeah. The ability to delete things. Did Jose? She's specifically asking about Jose. And Jean is saying no. She also says before this you mean,

which leads me to kind of believe that maybe he did have access at the point that they're having this interview or at some time after that, which means he could have had access before. She just isn't going to admit to it. However, it's interesting because the GBI agent also says, did Jose know that the batteries on your cameras were dead? And Jean says, yes. Well, he was helping me look all over the place for it in August, which is interesting

because if we go back to that 911 call, Jose says to the operator, well, there's cameras. So, you know, it might have picked something up. Why would he say that if he knew the batteries on the camera were dead? Yeah. See, that to me is a compelling point, right? That is something that you can go back and you can cross-reference and you have now someone who's on his side and John telling us that. Jose knew the cameras weren't working. So why would he make that statement?

Which I think was a slip up for her. Yeah, she wasn't thinking about it. Correct. And so Jose, if you're looking at Jose, you could take it as he's putting it out there as if he's under the belief, oh, we have cameras, we'll be good to go when he damn well knows that they're no longer working. And he would be one of the few people who were the present that night that would have known those cameras weren't working. Not good for Jose from that perspective. And so I guess another question would be if everyone was upstairs and going to bed by 1.30 a.m., who was opening and closing the garage door between 132 and 140 a.m. Now have been tracked by the Xfinity system. Yeah. And why were they doing that? Now, Jean said something in this interview about Bridget putting the leftovers in the garage

refrigerator. But if that was the case, she didn't say that to Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, so too much time had passed to verify that. Like, they can't just open the garage refrigerator and see if there's actually leftovers in there or ask Bridget if she put leftovers in the garage refrigerator. And it would really only explain the garage. door opening once. And Bridget has talked to the police several times. And I don't remember her saying anything about going into the garage to put leftovers in the refrigerator there. We heard her talk about it. She said, yeah, she was eating her gumbo. And then I was cleaning. And then Gary got there. And then I walked out the front door. Tam walked me out and I left. So when did you, I feel like

that is something that Bridget Fuller would have put in. Like I was so responsible, such a mother hen. I made sure that the gumbo was wrapped up and put in the refrigerator. So it wouldn't go bad because everybody else was too drunk and acting like a stupid fool to worry about that. And I didn't want that good gumbo to go to waste. That's just who I am. That's just who I am. And just for clarification from not only myself, but anybody listening or watching, when you say garage door, are you referring to the garage doors themselves or the door that leads to the garages? The door that leads from the house into the garage. Okay, that's what I was assuming, but I didn't want to, I didn't want to assume anything without getting clarification.

Yes. So there's this huge discrepancy of if everyone's tucked away in bed by 1.30 a.m. Like Jose said, like Jean said, like Stacy said, like Tom said, who's going in and out of the garage? What are they doing? This is multiple times. I also want to add in there, and this is anecdotal, but I'd like to get your opinion on it. And also everybody listening and watching right now as the host of a party like this. I know me personally, I'm going to be the last one to go to bed. I'm not leaving strangers or people that I have over in the kitchen to kind of fend for themselves.

I'm going to kind of be the overseer where I'm going to make sure everyone's tucked away. Everyone has what they need. And then once everyone's down for the night, I'll shut off the lights, make sure the doors are locked. And then I head up to sleep. Is that crazy for me to say that? No, especially if as John is claiming, she watched Tam take a bottle of tequila to the face that night. And Tam was trying to leave. And everybody had to talk her into not leaving.

And now Tam's like, oh, don't worry, guys, go up to bed. I'm just going to have a cigarette. And then I'll be up there too. Because remember, Tam was supposed to sleep on the second floor or the, you know, the bedroom floor with everybody else because there was only one bedroom on the main floor. And drunk as Jennifer Morel and Marcy were in there. So wouldn't you have at least made sure that that last guest who was apparently, according to you, one bottle of tequila in? Make sure she's down for the night. And so drunk and make sure she's down for the night so you know she's not driving home.

But also you have a security system. You want to make sure the doors are locked. You want to make sure everyone's safe. Now, it could be just a lapse in judgment, but my common practice is I'm the last one to go down. I want to make sure as a host, everyone's all set, everyone has what they need to sleep, everyone's comfortable, and then I can secure the building and make sure everyone's safe for the night. Yes, exactly. So now we are going to come to something that you asked me last week.

You said you would be curious to know if the police had talked to the neighbors. and I will say that the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office did not talk to the neighbors. Yeah, that's terrible. But from this clip of Jean's GBI interview, it seems that the GBI did. Did you ever tell anybody that you had a video of her following? No. Absolutely not. You didn't tell any of your neighbors that?

No. I don't even talk to my neighbors. That's funny. Did you talk to any of your neighbors after? happened like just kind of explain like what got other love just the one Elaine and Sean like if you were facing the house to the left because when the news crews came she was so tired of it that she put her speak out there and blasted Cardi B so they couldn't air it and she said are you and the kids

okay and I'm like we are and I know I said and I don't know directly to her but said I wish the cameras were recording I wish I would have had video because then this could all be put to rest. But I've never said that we have video. It doesn't even exist to have. Did you know from the get-go that there was no video? Yes. Or was it like a, you forgot that?

No, knew from the get-go. Because when they came, they're like, what about the cameras? I'm like, they're not charged. And did Jose I know that too? Yes. Okay. Were the cameras inside and outside or just outside of your house? Just outside.

There's one at the front door, one at the garage door. There were four total, front door, garage door, and on the backyard. There was one on the deck, and then one at the basement, all the entry points, and then one at the basement door. Would have been nice if those cameras were working, wouldn't it? It would have been great. Yeah, no, I mean, this is another lap and judgment. I mean, we're at a point in this story where I can clearly say Forsyth Police did not do a good

job at this investigation, and the overall theme is they were treating it as an accident from day one. And once again, they're asking, Jean, did you know when the police came to your house on November 4th that the cameras weren't working? Yes. Did, did Jose know that? Yes. And the GBI is asking her this because they've already talked to the neighbors. Oh, it's almost like they've done their job like I was saying earlier with getting the answers to the questions before you ask them. Exactly.

And they did this a year and a half after. What a concept, right? So the GBI spoke to a neighbor across the street from Jean. It sounds like this is the person that Jean was talking about. She's like, I don't even talk to the neighbors. I mean, I did talk to the people across the street. Even more reason I want to speak to him. Why don't they talk to you?

That's what I want to know. Yeah, the GBI went over there. They questioned him about that day. And he said a lot of things, by the way, but he first said that when he and his wife were leaving the house on the morning of November 4th, he said they were going to breakfast. They noticed a man and a woman coming out of Jean's house with a crock pot. And they saw this man and woman load the crock pot into the car and drive away. Now, the man and the woman with a crock pot would be.

be Tom and Stacey Smith. Because in their interviews, they say like, yeah, we had the crock pot, we left, we put in the car, we drove away. Now, Tom and Stacey Smith said they left at 8.30. But this neighbor across the street, he says that he and his wife were leaving the house at 9 a.m. And that's when they saw Tom and Stacey with the crock pot. He said later they found out someone had passed away that day and he was actually talking

to his friend in Alabama and he told the friend that he'd seen someone with a crockpot leaving the house when someone died. And he made a joke about a crockpot. killer. He was like, yeah, I mean, I didn't see anything, but I did see, you know, something suspicious. They were leaving the house with the crock pot. And according to what we've heard, you know, she had died the night before. So I was making a joke, like, oh, I saw the crock pot killer. He said a few days later, the woman who lived at that house, aka Jean, came over to explain what had happened. When she came over to explain, two days later, she came over and

said, I said, I said, I had friends over for my birthday. We watched the Alabama LSU football game. We played cards against humanity and we drank some wine. And we went to bed. And then I looked up the next morning and one of my best friends had passed away. And we found her out back. The weird thing, and I'm not, I mean, I just simply don't know anything. but she said

I just feel like I need to come tell you because this lady over here works at Silver City elementary school and she went to school saying a lady fell off my balcony and that's not true. Blugged. She said

so I think she was kind of looking at it's like an insurance thing and in trouble. I don't know what she even said to me. So she said she said she had like that lady's on her mouth. Which one? I think it was I assume it's this lady here

and the silver because she said she worked at the elevator. And she said something about all we know is she went outside of the smoke. She said all her video shows that she went outside to smoke and she couldn't really tell anything.

Then she said it looked like she fell and didn't try to catch herself or something. She said she had video of it? Yeah, she told me on video. Are you sure she said that? She said the video on her door

appears that she fell and didn't catch herself like she was blacked out but we didn't see it. I saw it. Like I said, two people leaving that morning with a crop pot. Remember what time that was? It was probably around nine I would guess because we were going to breakfast.

All right, so I'm going to quickly summarize what he said. Yeah, that audio was a little tough to listen to. It's hard. I think they have the recorder in their pocket, by the way, but we're going to take a quick break, but then I want to discuss it because it's important. So he says that a few days after Tam died, Jean came over and she was like, hey, I just want to explain to you what happened because this woman who works at Silver Lake Elementary School, she's running her mouth talking, saying that some woman fell off my balcony, and that is not what happened. And what it looks like is that according to my cameras, I have video footage. And it looks like she accidentally fell and didn't brace herself, the woman who died. And the guy's like,

yeah, I guess she came over to tell me because someone was like spreading rumors and she wanted to like nip it in the bud. And maybe she was looking at this for like insurance purposes. And she had the cameras. So basically, Jean told her neighbor across the street, this wasn't anything like nefarious. We didn't do anything wrong. It looks like this was just an accident. My cameras captured it. And that's why the GBI is asking, Jean, did you tell your neighbor that you had it on camera?

And Sean's like, no. I said I wished I had it on camera. And then they're asking this neighbor, are you sure she said that? He's like, yeah, that's what she said. She said she had it on camera. So let's take a quick break. And then we're going to discuss that.

All right. So let me guess because I know you work out and you care about fitness and stuff. You have a folder of saved workouts on your phone that you fully intended to do and never did. That is true. I'm definitely one of those people that'll be like, I'll start that routine Monday. Usually I just go down there and do whatever my body feels like doing.

And that's not the way to do it. That was me for a long time. I had all these random workouts saved, no actual structure, no actual motivation. So I'd either skip workouts entirely or just do whatever felt easy that day, like whatever I was used to doing and knew how to do. And no surprise, I wasn't seeing real progress. And that's why we both have started. using the ladder app. Yes, it's awesome.

It's completely changed how I work out. It's like having a personal trainer without having to coordinate schedules, which is like the hardest part. And shout out to my trainer from Ladder, Brian. We just did a workout this morning. I kept it up here. So I had it. It's called the pressure wash.

It was only 38 minutes. And one of the things I love about Ladder is the user interface. The video is very high quality. But up in the top or left or right hand corner, you have the amount of sets, the amount of reps you have to do. He's working with you on them. he's actually doing the whole workout as you're doing it. And then one little side thing that I really enjoy and love is that it works with Apple Health.

So if you have an Apple Watch like I do, you can connect your watch to the app to track your calories that you're burning. So love ladder. It's definitely a winner for me. We'll be using it going forward. Yeah, it's really cool because you can do it anywhere. So you can do it at home or you can bring it to the gym with you. And then you have a personal trainer in your headphones. It's going to walk you through every set.

It gives you cues, keeps you. keeps you focused. I don't have to think about what I'm doing anymore. It's not on my shoulders any longer. And it's really cool because it's a structured strength training plan that's designed by a real coach. So every week is going to build on the last. And there's different plans depending on how you like to train. Like I said, at the home, at the gym, if you're a strength focus, they have Pilates, whatever fits your routine. So honestly, you can remove the guesswork with ladder. You can get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout, no thinking. Everything's planned you. And if you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit slash crime weekly and take a quick quiz to find

your perfect ladder plan. Use our link and you're going to get a free seven-day trial with no credit card required, which is cool. And then you'll get $10 off your first month if you join. Yep, that seven-day trial without a credit card is a great way to try it out without any obligations. And I am going to continue using the app. Brian, I'll see you tomorrow. Okay, so we're back from the break. Now, what do you make of this? Is Jean just 10? telling the neighbor she has it on camera so she doesn't look bad. Did she have it on camera? And then she just got rid of it so that the Forsythe County Sheriff's Office and the GBI wouldn't find it.

What's going on here? Well, first off, let's start off with whether it's true or not. I absolutely believe that Jean said this to the neighbor. No doubt about it. She absolutely did it. The question is not whether she said it or not. It's why, right? Is it for public perception?

As you said, you know, was she just concerned about the rumor mill and people assuming that there could have been something more malicious going on here, sort of try to nip that in the bud. She's lying to the neighbor in the hopes that they'll spread, you know, this rumor as well saying, yeah, there's video. It was just, it was clearly an accident. It's, you know, slam dunk case. But then why not tell that to the GBI when they ask you?

Well, because she's, again, now she's lying. Because now she knows by admitting she said that to the guy. They're going to be like, well, why would you say that? You didn't have cameras. I said it because people were talking shit. And I just, I wanted to like, you know. That's what she should have did. But she didn't.

And why she didn't, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe she doesn't want to come off as a liar. But there's no doubt she said it to the neighbor. The neighbor has no reason to lie. The question is why she said it. Now, was she saying it just to kind of make them look better? Because she doesn't want them assuming that they're murderers. Or was she trying to do something else?

Or did she have video? The only thing about her having video, if there were video and they didn't want anybody to know there was video, it's not impossible. But I would highly doubt she would have told a neighbor. that there was video because then that could get back to law enforcement and it makes her look bad, right? Like if there's incriminating video, why would she admit that to anybody? Why wouldn't she go to her grave under the assumption that, yeah, there was no video? Well, there wouldn't be video if she had gone into the system and deleted the video.

And then if Forsyth County Sheriff's Office had followed up with the RLO system and signed in and they were like, oh, hey, this video was deleted. Now, Jean can just make up another thing. like, oh, it must have accidentally been deleted. I'm not good with technology. She's going to make up things as she goes along, depending on what they find. But she was banking on or hoping that that email and her just saying, yeah, the cameras have been dying since August would be enough for the sheriff's office,

which, as it turns out, it was. Yeah, it was. It shouldn't have been. Like I said, all of this is a lot of speculation. It would have been easily to confirm or discredit the idea that those cameras weren't running if law enforcement, instead of relying on an email or someone's word, went to the source. And Arlo would have absolutely been able to provide that information. So as far as her saying there was a video, we'll never know.

Do I believe she said it? Absolutely. Which it's like, okay, you were either lying then or you're lying now or you're lying both times. Yeah, she screwed either way. But why are you lying? If it was just a simple accident, why lie? Well, I mean, listen, that's a whole different can of worms. They understand at this point that the GBI is looking into this because to them there's something that doesn't smell right.

And now they're lying left and right because at minimum that they're concerned about what the ramifications could be. I just feel like at that point it's like, you know, sheepishly. Yeah, I did say that. Like, you know, people were talking shit. And I was worried about my reputation. So. Yeah, I agree. But you still, but you still lied.

You double down. Even though you know the GBI probably talk to your neighbors, which is why they're asking you this question. Correct. It doesn't make any sense. Okay. So the GBI also talked to another neighbor of Jeans. Her name's Mary. Now, the audio quality of this interview is very bad.

Oh, Jesus, compared to the last one. Yeah, it sounds like they have it in their pocket, maybe. It's happening outside. There's birds calling. There's dogs barking. So I'll tell you most of what Mary said. She said, quote, I mean, I'm just throwing this out there, but she was pushed off that deck, end quote, referring to Tamla.

Mary said that she and her family didn't have anything to do with the people who lived at Jean's house because they were kind of shady. And you know, to be true, I watched when I watched when the whole thing, I woke up in my husband and I woke up in the morning and went, I go what the heck is going on? But then when the officer came out and said, I heard everything. And they said it was a terrible accident. And then she just fell to the ground sobbing. And I thought to myself, that's such an act. You know what I'm sorry to say this, but that's how I feel.

I really feel that something bad went on there. So... You know, that's my own personal opinion. You can take it for what it's worth, and you can probably talk to the other neighbors too. Don't tell you the same thing. Did they think something happened over there? Okay. Now, did you, I got to ask, did you see anything happen that? That made you think that was just more of a feeling.

No, I didn't see anything. Okay. Now you said you think somebody pushed you off the porch? Who do you think? That's what I had. I mean, I'm just saying this to you. Uh-huh. you know but I just I feel there was the confrontation and she was pushed. Okay. Did you know the young lady that passed away?

Family? No, no, I didn't know. I didn't know any of them. They were all much younger than us and you know they're like the soccer mom, you know, kind of group with the head going on there. It's my own gut feeling, okay? So, I mean, you don't have to write it down. I'm just, I'm glad somebody's reopening it. It has bothered me and bothered me. and bothered me and bothered me and botherly.

Okay, so Mary's saying, listen, something happened there. I think she got pushed off. I've had a bad feeling about it. Now, Mary also said that both Jean and Jose gave her an odd feeling. And she said that the people who were at the party, the night that Toml had died, were at Jean's house every single night for like two weeks straight. And Mary said her and her husband talked about it, and they were like, yeah, these people are trying to get their story straightened out because why are they at the house?

every single night for two weeks straight. Why are they all together there? What's going on? Okay, so while we're talking about Jose Barrera, let's go deeper. Now, at the time of Tomla's death, Jose was employed by the Solicitor General's office as a pre-trial officer for the Forsyth County court system. Tomla died at the beginning of November 2018,

and by December 20th, 2018, Jose was fired. Okay, so let's fast forward a bit to February 1, 2019, when Tomla's friend, Michelle Graves, filed an incident report with the Forsythe County Sheriff's Office. She was accusing Jose Barrara of accessing her personal information using his police access.

And then she said he provided that information to five individuals. As I said, Michelle Graves was one of Tomla's best friends. She'd been very vocal after Tomla's death that something suspicious was going on with the people at that party. So Michelle was friends with a woman named Diane, who was also friends with Tam and Jean.

and Diane had known Jean, her mother and her ex-husband for many years. Diane was actually supposed to be at that party, but she had taken a trip to California so she couldn't be there that night. Michelle says that Jean and some of the other people at the party were texting with Diane on November 4th the day they found Tam. The first message was from Jean to Diane at 2.31 p.m. And it said that Tam had wandered outside in the night for a cigarette and died. Two minutes later, Paula Seals texted Diane and said, quote,

we all went to bed, Tam fell down the back steps at 157, they think it's alcohol poisoning. End quote. Now, Michelle says these two messages, two minutes apart from each other, saying two different things that weren't even, you know, what the police ended up determining happened. It was highly suspicious. Michelle says the following day, November 5th, Jean invited Diane to bring over some members of Toml's family, including her husband Lee. And Michelle says that Jean told Diane, you can bring over any of Tam's family. Pam's friends, family, anybody who's curious, we want to, like, put this to rest.

So Michelle decided to go as well. Michelle said that upon arrival, they were shown through the kitchen and out onto the balcony, and this is where they were told that Jose had found Tomla's cigarette butts on the ledge of the balcony. Michelle said, quote, I remember thinking that was odd because Tomla wouldn't do that. She would put them in an ashtray or throw them away, especially at someone else's house, end quote. Also keep in mind, there was an ashtray out there on the balcony.

Then Jose pointed out to them a body imprint on the grass. below and told them that was where Tomla's body had been. Jean also showed them a wall on the ground floor and demonstrated how Tomla must have slid down the wall and stumbled through a six-foot section of gravel before tripping over the garden border. Jean said there'd been a table with cleaning supplies that Tom must have knocked over as she fell and suggested that Tomla might have been having a medical event. We're going to talk more about this later, but essentially this is how Michelle came to be

on Jose's radar, according to her. She says she talked to Forsyth County Sheriff's Office Detective Sexton on November 19th. She showed him the text messages and she's like, hey, don't you think this raises a red flag? Like, what's going on? You know, you've got to talk to these people. And she was told that they could not interrogate people or just give them lie detector test randomly. Michelle says that on November 23rd, five false police reports were filed against her by people at the party claiming Michelle was stalking them. And basically they were saying like she wasn't supposed to be at the house on November 5th.

She invited herself over. We feel scared. Blah, blah, blah. And Michelle said that's when she felt the police were working with these people because why would they come after her four days after she talked to the police on the 19th? And how would they know that she had talked to the police or what she had said to the police? Because according to these police reports, they were aware that she was basically making allegations against them. It seemed they were aware of what she said to Detective Sexton. So when Michelle made a complaint against Jose Barrara on December 20th of 2018,

she also asked Mike Christian why he had helped the five partygoers file false reports on her. We are going to come back to this. There was a whole legal battle. Mike Christian did help the people at the party file these reports against Tam's friend Michelle. These allegations were eventually thrown out by the court. But basically, Michelle is saying, why is this detective who's supposed to be investigating Tomla's death? Why is he helping the people who haven't even been ruled out as being suspects or involved? Why is he helping them come after me, the person who's asking questions and wanting the police to dig further?

Yeah, great question. I think we're all asking that, Michelle. So then Michelle has some information and things are said during this legal battle that makes her think these people at the party who filed these false reports on her, they have information about her that they could only get through Jose's access through his, you know, police connected computer. So what ends up happening is Jose gets fired. Now, the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office spokesperson, Major Joe Perkins, told the Forsyth County news that they had determined that Jose had not searched for Michelle Graves' personal information from his work terminal. However, the investigation did turn up evidence that Jose had used. his work terminal to view several reports, including a death report dated November 4th, 2018, in which he was listed as a witness, aka Tomla Horsford's death investigation. Not only did he access that information, but he provided it to five different people. So what do you think about that?

Terrible. Abuse of power, obviously misuse of department access. You know, it's completely unethical. Which is why he was fired. but why did he do it? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's only he can answer that question. I know what half of you are thinking. I know what the other half of thinking. One half is thinking Jose knows that they're on to him and he's trying to get in front of things before it all comes crashing down because he's responsible for Tomla's death.

On the other hand, he knows that he's innocent and now these rumors are starting to swirl and he's trying to get in front of it because he's about to be accused for a crime he didn't commit. Who's saying that he's innocent and he's trying to get ahead of it? No, that's what Jose's perspective would be. You said half of the people are saying this and half of the people are saying that. I'm saying as far as people watching or listening to this, you think every single person listening to this right now is of the belief of the belief? I'm not saying that I'm even of the belief. That's what I'm saying. So half of our audience is saying he's trying to cover something up.

The other half is saying he's trying to get in front of something. What I'm saying is if you looked up this death investigation, it means you want to know what the police know. And as a person, a witness of this potential crime, you shouldn't know what the police know because then you can tailor your story around that, right? We're on the same page there. My point being the question, again, it's always going to be why. Why is he doing it? I just don't think a person who's innocent says this is going to make me look better if I do this. No, of course not, but he didn't expect them to find out that he was doing it.

You know, that's the whole thing. If he knew that they were going to be able to figure it out, he probably wouldn't have done it. Or he knew he had friends in the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office who might let it pass. So that's where we're moving on because in his position with the county, Jose Barrara, of course, came into contact with multiple law enforcement people. And as we know, when the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office deputy, Andy Kalin, arrived to Jean's House on November 4th. He said he recognized Jose. Well, as it turns out, Andy more than recognized Jose because before Jose was fired from his, his pretrial officer position in 2018, he was fired from his job with the state probation office,

along with another person, a woman named Alexis, because apparently the two had lied about their relationship. So this is before Tomlin died, before Jose's getting fired for using his police credentials improperly. He's fired from the state probation office. Now, Andy Kalin would be interviewed by the GBI. And they were mainly trying to clarify whether or not there had been a phone call with Jose, during which Jose admitted to checking Thomas Paulson moving her arm. We already talked about that.

Remember, Andy said that he had called Jose to kind of verify the positioning and whether or not he touched her. He said Jose admitted to it. Then Jose was asked by the GBI, and he was like, that's bullshit. I never said that. So that's what the GBI was talking to Andy Kalin about. And as we talked about already, Andy admitted that this happened. And when he asked why the call hadn't been included in any report, he said he hadn't made a of it or written it down anywhere because to him it wasn't of any significance. They were just trying

to find out if Jose took Tam's pulse and where he had touched her. So in the same interview, Andy talks about his relationship with Jose. In this clip, Andy mentions someone named James Dunn, who at that time was the Forsyth County Assistant District Attorney. So you wouldn't have just written that report to cover for somebody else touching her body or anything like that? No, of course not. I don't do that. I've been doing is too long. I have nobody to cover for. And that's really why I was explaining to you about our relationship because all this has nonsense has come out. And, you know, I met him through being an investigator at the courthouse. James Dunn said he was a good dude. And, you know, I said, okay, so I maybe talked to him two or three times over there. And then he got fired from, he and

Alexis got fired from their jobs with state probation. And, you know, James was like, man, he's a good dude. You know, if you could try to help him get a job. So I did. I talked to the sheriff about him. I said, look, you know, here, he's got a good reputation over there with the judges and the ADAs and as a hard worker, but here's what happened, you know. And I said he got fired for a lion.

I mean, that was the bottom line. Sheriff said, no, Andy, I appreciate it. but I'm not, we would not take a guy. And that's when he got fired from this whole case. Then he got fired again. Then he was, yeah. So that was when he got fired from his first job. That's where he got fired from state probation.

And then he was, then, you know, Jamie hired him Tavineer. And he was doing a fine job according, I guess, to Jamie over there. I don't know, he wasn't doing, you know, it was not in any issues. And then this came about. When did you get his cell phone number? Do you remember prior to this case? Yeah, no, no. I'm just thinking of when it would have been some time after he would have been fired from the state probation.

So, God, Kelly, I don't know the dates. I don't want to tell you it was like 2014 and it was 2016. I don't know. Whenever he was fired from probation and I talked to James Dunn about it, you know, that they were gone from the courthouse and they were fired, you know, he said, man, It'd be great if you, you know, this guy. Did James not give you his phone number or did you? Yeah, James gave it to me.

I think I got it through text. And I don't think it's actually, I don't, I doubt I even have it. Because I go through my phone occasionally and purge. Okay, so just to sort of recap what we just heard there. After Jose got fired from the state probation office, the assistant district attorney of Forsyth County, James Dunn, asked the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, Detective Andy Kalin, personally, to help Jose get hired at a job within the sheriff's office because Jose was such a good guy and a hard worker. Now, the sheriff said no, and eventually Jose

Jose gets a job through the Forsyth County court system as a pretrial officer. And Andy Kalin has had Jose's number far before Tom a Horstford died. And apparently, Jose's always, had a really good reputation with the judges and the ADA's to the point where one of these ADA's went out on a limb to personally tried to get Jose a job. Now, this is showing that Jose's got connections. And I mean, he's got an ADA vouching for him, trying to get him hired within the sheriff's office of Forsythe County. And I mean, if he hadn't, you know, lied and gotten fired from his previous job, it may have worked. Jose may have been hired as a police officer. So yeah, I mean, for sure. Let's just talk about Andy Kalin for a second, knowing what he knew, right, that he had made

attempts to get Jose hired as a deputy sheriff. As soon as this case came up, he should have removed himself from him. He should have accused himself and said, hey, listen, it's a conflict of interest. Yeah, it's very minimal as far as our relationship. However, I don't want to jeopardize the outcome of this case regardless of which way it falls. So I'm going to respectfully remove myself from this case because I have a preexisting relationship with this person. Regardless of how a minor it might be, I know this person. I have his number. I vouch for him to try to get him a job. I shouldn't be investigating him. And when you look at it from that perspective, you would understand why, because he's going to go into this. If he's vouching for this guy, he's automatically going to assume that he's a

good person, he's telling the truth and that he didn't do anything wrong, which is a skewed judgment. So he should not have been anywhere near this investigation. Now, what do you think about Jose having friends in high places as far as the district attorney's office being close enough with ADA James Dunn where James Dunn is going out on a limb to bring in Andy Kalin and be like, hey, can you get him a job? I feel bad. This guy got fired. He's such a good guy and a hard worker. Yeah, no, same thing, right? James, if he was anywhere near this case whatsoever, he should have recused himself as well.

Listen, I mean, I work in Rhode Island. There are unavoidable situations where when we work cases, somehow there might be. a connection where you know someone because you're working with them. But whenever possible, if you know this person or have a previous relationship with them for the integrity of the investigation, regardless of what level you're at, you should remove yourself from it. All right. So what I'm saying is if the sheriff's office is investigating, and this is the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, and they're going right off the bat, like, first of all, Andy, Andy Kalin's going in and being like, yeah, I recognized Jose. You're not being honest about your

your relationship with him in the initial police report, number one. Number two, you had a phone call with him to verify how Tomla's body was moved and all this. You didn't make a report about it. You didn't talk about it. It happened on your personal cell phone, not your work cell phone. And now you're talking about the law enforcement portion investigating. And usually when the law enforcement portion is investigating, they'll bring it to the district attorney's office and be like, here's what we found. How should we proceed? Is this an accident? Is this nefarious? Should we press charges? Now, if the district attorney's office already is kind of like friends with Jose, they might be more likely to be like, you know what, it looks like an accident. Let's just wrap this up and make an announcement.

I mean, it's a little bit of a leap because the district attorney's office is more than one person. I understand where you're going with it. I'm just trying to stay objective about it. I mean, having one person know them, you can't assume that entire organization is going to be like, well, you know, James said he's cool. Yeah, but Andy said he had a good reputation with the judges. And ADA. So he's talking about all of them, right? Because in that capacity he was working, Jose would have run into ADAs and judges on a regular basis all the time. Of course. He would, yeah, he'd be walking those hallways every day. Yeah, for sure. And so it does create some

complications. At the end of the day, they're still going to be involved. They're the district attorney's office. They have to be, right? But you would try to minimize the relationship. So what you would do in that particular case, whatever ADA was handling this particular case, you would want to ensure that they had no pre-existing relationship with Jose or anybody, for that matter, in that household. So that would be a question that I would have is, okay, we understand that the, the district attorney's office has to be involved with whatever happens here. Were precautions taken to ensure that nobody with a pre-existing relationship was overseeing this case? But on a lighter note, just to kind of just even talk about it just from a surface level, right?

if there is people who know of Jose from the past and know of other people in that house from the past, is it possible that they automatically assume this was a bunch of good people who were involved in a tragic accident? Absolutely. It could skew your judgment, for sure. Yeah, he's a good guy.

It's Derek, it's Stephanie. We know them. They're good people. No way they did anything wrong here. So could that skew the investigation? A bias before you can start. Yeah, of course, absolutely. So you're saying at the worst,

maybe there's some like back talk, you know, behind the scenes talking at the least worst. It's just I came in with some kind of bias already thinking this person. Yeah, preconceived notion about this case because I know the people involved or I know of the people involved. Yeah. But it does seem odd that he wouldn't, that Andy Kalin wouldn't be upfront about his entire relationship with Jose.

Yeah, no, that's a misstep. There's no, in the fact that he was such a big part of this case, you know, this and this is the why we're covering it. And now it makes sense as far as why people are so interested in this case. there's a lot of people who have investment in it because, like many cases that we cover, wherever there's a lot of rumors and speculation surrounding what actually occurred, when you really get to the root of the problem, it usually comes back to the investigating agency and not doing their job and not crossing all their T's, dotting all their eyes,

ensuring that there wasn't anything there that would bring into question their decision-making processes at a later date, right? Their ability to stay objective. that clearly wasn't done here. You could stop the series right here, and we could come to that conclusion. And by not doing that, you're going to always have these concerns and questions about this case

because the people who were in charge of investigating it had previous relationships, and that should never happen. All right, we're going to take our last break, and then we're going to come back and wrap this episode up, but the most shocking is yet to come, so stay with us. You know what's frustrating? looking back on the time in your life and realizing, I probably could have used therapy then because burnout is a real thing. And the whole point of burnout is it doesn't happen overnight.

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The flavors are intentionally lighter than vaping, more like flavored water compared to soda. Orange vanilla is my favorite. And fume has already helped over 700,000 people take steps toward better habits. with Fume. So when you grab your journey pack, you'll also get a free gift just for using our code. So if you want to check it out, head over to tryfume.com. That's T-R-Y-F-U-M-D-com. And use code Crime Weekly. That's Crime Weekly, all one word, to claim your free gift today. All right. So we're back. By the time the GBI has their first interview with Jose Barara on June 22nd, 2020, and he's asked about text messages from November of 2018. He says he probably doesn't have any

because he now has a new phone. Okay, that's not suspicious, not necessarily on its own. So in 2018, when the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office was investigating Toml's death, they did not search the phones of any of the partygoers. They did not interview any of Jean's neighbors. They did tell Tamla's family that they were going to check the camera of a neighbor, but then later they told the family that what they had thought was a camera was actually just a light. I don't know how you messed that up as a cop, but they did, apparently, allegedly. So additionally, no sexual assault kit was done on Tamla at the time of her autopsy. No fingernail clippings were collected. GBI Public Affairs Director Nellie Miles said that it is standard policy to not test for illicit substances when the possible suspect is deceased,

as there would be no one to be held accountable if they were to find drugs present, because they didn't test the tequila for any illicit substances, remember. So Nellie Miles, Public Affairs Director of the GBI, is like, yeah, it's standard policy to not do that because the possible suspect is deceased, aka Tomla. And so there would be no one to hold accountable. So I don't know if the GBI is saying that it wasn't possible for anybody to put anything in Toml's tequila besides her. That's essentially what they're saying, yeah. That doesn't make any sense. That's stupid. That's essentially what they're saying, though, right? I mean, they're saying, hey, listen, if there was anything illicit found in her blood or found in her body,

it would be because of her. Yeah. That's essentially what they're saying. Yeah. Nellie Miles also said that it was routine to not take steps in the case to like get fingernail clippings or do a sexual assault kit because there were no indications of foul play. But once again, how on the day the autopsy is happening, which is within days of Tamma being dead, if you haven't concluded an investigation, how do you know there's no signs of foul play?

play. As far as I know to this day, they still can't tell us exactly what happened to Tamla. So how do you know that maybe by grabbing those clippings by doing a sexual assault kit? Maybe that would explain what happened to her. Just to have it in case. If you wanted to go back later, yeah, if you found out something two weeks or three months later that was like, oh, that's weird. Let's check the sexual assault kit. Let's check the fingernail clippings. Listen, if you have a loose end in a case, like, oh, could this have been an argument that was, that turned violent? And maybe there was some defensive wounds, right? Wouldn't you want to tie up that loose end by saying, yeah, you know there wasn't? And you want to know why I know there wasn't? Because we had clippings and we tested them and there

was no DNA found out of him. Okay. All right. I can get behind that. Okay, thank you. Moving on. But you didn't do that. So now that question is going to remain a question. Let's shine the spotlight on Forsyth County Sheriff's Office Deputy Mike Christian, who, as we know, was hugely involved in this investigation. We can hear his voice on every single one of these initial interviews. Well, we are learning tonight of Forsyth County deputy stepping down. According to the sheriff's office, an investigation revealed that he violated several rules while on the job. That report, which was sent to 11 alive, shows that Deputy Michael Christian had inappropriate contact with two women while working. They say he neglected his job, left unauthorized people in official cars, and gave out confidential information.

Christian resigned before the investigation was complete. Forsyth County Sheriff, Ron Freeman says, there is no room for this type of conduct and the citizens of Forsyth County deserve better. Mike Christian, he's got some ladies in his cruiser trying to act like a cool guy. All right, so you might be like, well, what does this have to do with Tomla? He's just a man.

He has everything to do with it. Well, it does, actually. It does because it just shows the type of person you're dealing with and what they're willing to do. It's character. So what exactly did Mike Christian do? Well, one woman said she met Mike Christian after he was assigned to investigate a crime committed against her.

And she told WSBTV Channel 2, quote, the bottom line is, I called 911 and the county set a sociopath into my life, end quote. She said the relationship went from professional to friendly and then became intimate, and she would often meet with Mike Christian while he was on duty. He would also call and text her for hours while on duty, sending her unsolicited crime scene photographs, personal information about victims, and other sensitive information. This woman said she was actually on the phone with Mike Christian when he got dispatched to Jean Myers' house on November 4th, 2018. She said he was sending her pictures of Tomla's dead body.

A second woman also came forward and said she was having a relationship with Mike Christian at the same time. And he was sending her pictures of the crime scene as well. Quote, I know where she died, how she died, the toxicology reports. So he was just throwing this information out there like it was nothing. end quote. So three screenshots of Snapchat messages that Mike Christian sent to these women were obtained by the GBI. So in this one, we're putting up on screen, it was sent the morning of November 4th. And Mike Christian appears to be making a joke about how he is going to notify Tomla's husband about her death. Quote, hello, sir. I know we've never met, but I'm here to tell you that your wife and the mother of your six children is dead. Oh yes, I'm happy to report. that she was really, really drunk, blended face down in the backyard and either through hypothermia or potential exphyxia or aspirated on her own puke, not sure which one. I know you have fun memories. Enjoy corraling those six boys who are now going apesh. End quote. Not much to say here,

right? It's despicable, deplorable, unethical. Bottom line, he's an asshole. And just from a professional standpoint, he's disseminating information to an independent party who has nothing to do with the case. And if you want to take it a step further, he's coming to a conclusion about this case before he's had the chance to investigate it. So I have no kind words to say about Michael Christian. And he doesn't seem to be very empathetic about what happened to Tomla, right? He's an asshole. She landed down, faced on the backyard, maybe exfixated on her own puke, not sure which one. You're not even looking at this as something like, hey, this doesn't seem right. Well, it aligns with everything we've talked about not only in episode one, but also here tonight,

which is that they came to a conclusion before doing the investigation. The minute they showed up based on the people that were there and how Tomlo was found, they concluded that she did this to herself. And so how do you have an independent investigation when the investigators in their minds have already figured out what happened? I don't even know how you can do any kind of thorough or detailed investigation when you're so concerned with snapping pictures on Snapchat of a woman's dead body to send your girlfriend and chatting with her about it, right?

No, it's a scumbag move. It's an absolute scumbag move, and you have to wonder about how many other cases he did this on. Apparently a lot, by the way, apparently a lot. It does answer my question. When I was asking you earlier, rhetorically saying, you know, why wasn't a biomechanical engineer brought in? Well, now we know. Because when he got there, he had already decided that she fell over the railing and that this was her doing. And so he didn't feel the need to have an independent party, an expert who actually knows what they're talking about, come in and tell you what could have occurred. But there's more than just Mike Christian showing up to the scene that day.

Yeah, but he's one of the lead investigators, right? I mean, he's one of the ones that's got his fingerprints all over it. But there's Detective Sexton, there's Andy Kalin. All these people are showing up a lot, right? I'm sure his feelings were probably mutual amongst everybody there. So on November 19th, Mike Christian wrote to his girlfriend, quote, Greetings from Racist Cracker Bastard Murder Covering Up Land. How are you?

It's a nice rainy day. good for digging shallow graves by the roadside, end quote. Now, if you see in this screenshot, the word graves is capitalized, and it's believed that it's spelled with capital G because it's a reference to Michelle Graves, who, if you remember, had a meeting with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office that same day and basically said something suspicious was going on with Tomliss case. And then all of a sudden, Mike Christian helps these five partygoers file false reports against Michelle Graves trying to scare her and shut her up.

So the GBI actually talked to one of these women, Mike Christian's girlfriend's, one of them. And she said Christian was obsessed with this case. She said he talked about it all the time. He called Tomla porch lady and much more. Now they have a filmed interview with this woman. Her face is blurred. The audio is once again terrible. I can't even use it. However, I can tell you what this woman told the GBI. So this was the woman who was on the phone with Mike Christian when he got the call about Tomla Horstford. She said he told her, there was a black dead lady in someone's yard. He then got off the phone with her and then started Snapchatting her. She said he would do this with every call. He had been doing it for years. He snapped a picture of Tomla's body and she said, quote,

the story was that she fell off the porch, but he didn't think that ever. End quote. Mike Christian told this woman that Tomla's wrist was broken and he was trying to figure out why her body had been moved. Quote, he was telling me that something didn't look right to him because he could tell her body had been moved and he said there's no way she fell off the porch if she was that drunk she wouldn't have braced herself and he said that he didn't think the wrist injury matched her falling off the porch

end quote this woman said that over the years mike christian was obsessed with the case he talked about it every day and quote he said it ruined his life and his career end quote she said mike christian started having panic attacks he had to go back on his blood pressure medication because the case was stressing him out so much the woman said that mike christian told her that at some point he found out there had been calls made between Jose and Andy Kalin before the 911 call. And after the police left that day, November 4th, there were more calls made. Quote, so then Mike started freaking out. And at the very end, like before we stopped talking, he told me that he was convinced that he didn't think she was murdered.

He said that something else happened to her. He thinks her death is accidental, but where he was getting frustrated was he said that he was convinced that maybe the people at the party panic and talked to Andy Kalin and got a story together, moved her body, and then came up with this whole porch thing. At the end, Mike was pretty convinced. Now, at the beginning of the investigation, he was just like, I don't know what's going on. You know, like, I don't know. I don't think it's the porch. I don't know what's happening. But then I guess as he got more information, but I don't know at the end, he started having panic attacks and he was like, I'm going to go down, you know, if there really was a cover up that I wasn't privy to, that means my own officers set

the scene up knowing I was coming to investigate it, but not knowing that I was investigating something that was like laid out for me to investigate, end quote. Well, there you go. Right from the horse's mouth, right? Self-explanatory. Right from the girlfriend of the horse's mouth. Yeah, that's fair. But what would be her incentive to why? To the GBI of all things. Yeah. What would be the point of making all this up? I mean, listen, we have to acknowledge that it's possible, right, that some people have access to grind and they could go out there and say all this. but when you consider how this investigation was conducted, it's pretty spot on to what a lot of people think.

Yeah, and I mean, I can see her because she did talk to journalists, and obviously she talked to the Forsyth County's sheriff office. She was one of the people that filed her report. Yeah, she didn't think too kindly of Mike Christian. I can see her, you know, maybe elaborating or exaggerating. But when the GBI comes, she got on camera. There's a recorded interview of her. And she's saying all this, I'm quoting directly from that recorded interview.

Yeah, damning for sure. Yeah, it's pretty bad. Now, according to this woman, Mike Christian was panicking and scared that he was going to get in trouble, that even though he had not done anything wrong, he was going to go down for people who had done something wrong. And this woman goes on to say that Toml's family believes that Mike Christian was kicked out of the CID because of her case. But it wasn't that. It was because Mike was going for a promotion to Sergeant and Tyler Sexton got that promotion. And Mike called Tyler a preppy bastard to his face. And then, remember last episode we talked about that other police officer, I think his name was Greg Cannon, who got fired for drinking on the job.

And Mike Christian was removed from the Tomla Horstford case halfway through because it came out that he had covered up for Greg. So Greg gets fired for drinking on the job. Then someone lets it slip that Mike Christian had known Greg was drinking on the job the whole time. And this is when he's removed from the CID, which stands for Criminal Investigation Division. And then this is why Mike Christian is taken off Tomlhorstford's case and he doesn't stay on it the entire time. And this woman also said that Mike Christian called her freaking out about Tam's friend Michelle Graves all the time and basically being like, why is this woman like digging so deep?

Why is she, you know, keep bothering us? What does she want here? Basically, he was feeling threatened by her, which makes sense, I guess, why he then helped these five people who he was supposed to be investigating file police reports against her to try to shut her up and scare her. Yep, absolutely. All makes sense now. Now, Mike Christian, of course, responded to all of this. The thing to understand is he's caught doing all of these things. And instead of allowing an investigation to happen, he resigned from the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office. Kind of seems like he was running away from it, right? Yeah, good for you, Mike. So after he resigned and

everything came out, he put out a public statement, quote, I am far from a perfect human. I chose to end a long-term extramarital relationship abruptly. This person, out of anger and hurt, chose to go to Sheriff Freeman with a list of alleged misconduct on my part. In 2020 hindsight, I would not have resigned, but stayed for the investigation and taken what punishment was fitting up to termination. As is, the IA investigation lacks my side of the story and makes me out to be something I am not. All the good I have done in 16 years of law enforcement is gone with this document, end quote. And of course he's saying this before the GBI does their investigation into Tomla Horstford's case and produces these Snapchat screenshots, which clearly show that it's not alleged misconduct.

This was actual misconduct, my friend. So as to this woman's claims of what he told her about the Tomla Horstford case, Mike Christian had this to say to the GBI. Is there any reason that Mandy would have told me that you felt like Jose may have called Andy, like that it was still an accident, but that they panicked and Jose called Andy and Andy kind of helped him come up with a story on what to do. That is so far out of left field. No.

So you never had any concerns that anybody ever messed with this scene prior to your arrival or that you were going to be caught up and getting arrested and something that happened that you knew nothing about as far as the scene being messed with. Oh, no. I'll get even further with that. I have no doubt that she landed exactly where we found her and I think we've gone over this several times,

but basically those two injuries on her shin corresponded with that piece of landscaping whatever and the dent. I have no there's not a doubt in my mind that she fell from that deck and landed where we found her. He has such a stupid face. I want to punch it. You know, listen, I'm no Brad Pitt, so I'm not going to say anything. No, it's not even, it's just the way he's like, like, no, absolutely.

Like, come on, dude. And he keeps talking, the injuries on her shins correspond. Wasn't it you, Mike Christian, who initially said she had fallen and tripped over the landscape? And that's how she got the, the. injuries on her shins. And now you're like, no, the injuries on her shins show exactly that she fell off the deck. I have no doubt. Come on. Yeah, bottom line, nobody there knew what happened. And yet they were treating it as if there's no doubt this was an accident. So this woman who we have been able to prove, Mike Christian sent her all sorts of things, including basically making fun of

notifying Tom was husband about her death and being like, have fun correlling those five boys now. and he told her allegedly, according to this woman, that he always felt there was something wrong and maybe there had been a police cover up and he was afraid and he was stressed out. But now he's saying, absolutely not. I never said that. Do you think it's just because he genuinely does feel like something happened? But at this point, he doesn't want to publicly say that on the record because, well, then maybe these other police officers would come after him. Maybe he'd have no shot of ever working in law enforcement again.

Yeah, it's absolutely possible. You know, we don't know. I mean, I can sit here and tell you, sure, yeah, that's what happened here, but I don't know. I don't know what was going on behind closed doors. I don't know what this woman, what her agenda was, if it was just to tell the truth and get it out there or if she had an axe to grind. I don't know. But everything you've talked about over these last two episodes, now we're like six hours in. My opinion is that there absolutely was something going on here where,

at minimum, they had come to a conclusion the minute they arrived, maybe even before they arrived. That's something that I don't think is up for much debate at this point. Whether everything that that woman said was true, there's no doubt in my mind that him saying, oh, yeah, congrats. You got to go tell your five kids, six kids, whatever, that their mother's gone because you were drunk and you, you know, you aspirated on your own vomit, all these things, right? That, to me is too much detail to be just something she made up. And- Well, she didn't make that up the GBI. was able to verify that those screenshots were true. Yeah, that to me right there is there's obviously truth in that.

GBI was able to confirm it. And so now we know that everybody involved in this case, or at least most of them, the people who are calling the shots from day one, believe this was an accident. Now, was there a cover up? For me personally, I haven't seen any evidence of that yet. was there assistance by law enforcement potentially, especially when you consider Andy Kalin and the phone calls that happened? I need more to go there, but to me, I don't need anything else to come to the conclusion that a decision about this case was made before they ever investigated the crime.

And that's obviously one of the number one cardinal rules when investigating a crime of this nature. So the allegation was that there had been calls between Andy Kainland and Jose before. for Jose and John called 911. Now, of course, the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office isn't going to investigate that. They didn't take anybody's phone. By the time the GBI tries to investigate that, as you heard Andy say, oh, well, I purge things all the time. And Jose, of course, has a completely different phone. And, you know, they'd have to go through cell phone carriers at this point.

And you know how difficult that is. But it can be done, by the way, at the time, if it had been done correctly, it could have been. A year and a half later, though, they might not. Maybe, no, more than likely not at that point, no. So at that point, now the GBI goes to Jose and they're like, will you take a lie detector test? He's like, yes. They go back to him, I think a few weeks later. And they're like, okay, so you said you were going to take a lie detector test?

He's like, no, I'm not going to do that anymore. So, and, you know, and they're like, hey, can we take your phone and extract it? He's like, sure. But of course, it wasn't the phone that he had at the time. Tamila died. So it doesn't matter. So there's no way to prove whether those calls, those alleged calls between Andy and Jose before the 911 call ever happened.

And obviously, Jose and Andy aren't going to admit to that or fess up to that. But that would suggest a cover up, right? A cover up on behalf of the people who were at the party? If Jose called Andy Kalin before he called 911, would you that suggest a cover up? That would suggest there's something. Why would you call your buddy, Andy? I'm going to look like a defender of law enforcement.

here, but that call could have been, hey, Andy, I know, I know you. We found this woman outside. What should we do? And Andy says, you need to call law enforcement. I wouldn't go as far as what you're saying as far as, oh, he made that call to someone he knew in law enforcement, therefore it's a cover up. Yeah, but the allegation is that Mike Christian told his girlfriend that he found out these calls that happened and that Andy had helped them cover it up. Oh, yeah, that's his, that's his opinion. Yeah, I haven't seen any evidence of that yet from what you've conveyed to me. that's a big it's a big allegation to make and I would need more than incompetence and there's definitely incompetence here on behalf of everybody involved and also I would go as far as saying a bias an assumption made that this was an accident based on previous relationships but to go to the extreme of this was a collaborative effort a cover up between all these people at the party and the law enforcement agency Forsythe Police Department I'm not ruling it out but I haven't seen that yet I will say the call and the fact that he wasn't willing to take a lie to detector test is highly suspicious. So just to kind of clarify, Mike Christian is saying, I don't think

this was a murder. I think it was an accident. She died. And then they called Andy Kalin and they were like panicking, what do we do? And Andy gave them instruction of kind of like how to go about this, maybe what to say when they called 911, et cetera, et cetera. So that's not necessarily, I guess, we're covering up a murder. But. Yeah, some advice by a law enforcement officer. her to try to make this go as smooth as possible for sure. Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's definitely at play here. There's no doubt about it. I guess my, as a GBI investigator, if I was working this, I would want to know what time that call took place. For example, we have already determined based on the body that her death was approximately that time frame in which she kind of went

off the radar, maybe 1.30, 2 o'clock in the morning based on how the stage that she was in, rigor, all of these things. So we know she didn't die at 8 o'clock in the morning, right? So what I would want to know is when that call took place. Now, it still doesn't mean that they didn't wait a few hours before calling Andy, but it would give us some insight into when they discovered Tomola, right? Like, if they called Andy at 8.30 a.m. So like if they were present when it happened, if it was, if the call took place to Andy at 150 a.m. Or 230 a.m. Yeah. Now, now we're talking a different ballgame, right? We're talking a completely different thing. And that's, and then they don't make the call to law enforcement until 8.30 in the morning. Well, what were you doing in that four hour window? But yeah, this is a

horrible case. And I understand now, I get it. I get why people are so passionate about this case and are so frustrated and so angry by this case. Because clearly, without doing anything else regarding what transpired, not talking about any other part of this, Tomlin did not get the justice she deserved. And I understand why Lee and the rest of her family is so up. upset about this because maybe if a thorough investigation had been conducted by independent parties who were impartial to what had transpired here and didn't have pre-existing relationships and weren't on phone calls with potential persons of interest or suspects prior to calling dispatch, maybe Lee would have accepted the results of the investigation and said, you know what?

It was done by the book. They crossed every T, they dotted every eye. I don't like it, but it's a tragic accident. But when you have all of these things in totality, in conjunction with the behaviors of the people at the party, yeah, I'd be skeptical of the investigation as well and what actually took place that night. I agree. So next week, we'll continue on with this case and uncover more. But as of now, I can't wait to hear everybody's comments about part two. I look forward to reading them on YouTube and discussing the case with you. But do you have anything else to say before we

sign off? I would just change it up, make it a little bit lighter. Congrats to the CrimeCon giveaway winner. Congrats to our Patreon winner. And also, I think we're able to say this, We won't give any details. But if you're coming to CrimeCon, Stephanie and I were talking about it before we started recording. This is a first for us. We are going to be officiating a wedding. Like, actually, we are now ordained ministers. Someone in our Crime Weekly family is getting married at CrimeCon in Vegas.

And Derek and I are officiating the wedding. We're marrying them. Yes. And this person came up to me. And I'm not saying her name because I don't know if she wants it out there yet. I have a feeling anybody who's there from the Crime Weekly fam is going to be invited to come. That would be my guess. But we'll let them decide.

But she came up to me while I was in line at the lobby at CrimeCon Denver. And we were talking. And she said, hey, what if we got married next year? Would you do it? And I was like, sure. Not thinking she was going to follow through on it. And then he brought her over to me. And he was like, we're marrying them next to you.

Yeah. And I put it on my Instagram story. I just got my official certificate. it and let's just say I'm not going to spoil it here but your boy's going all out as far as the attire. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's all I'm going to say.

But that is my... We'll post pictures. Yeah, we'll have pictures and video for sure who anybody who can't make it. But if you can and you want to be part of the first crime weekly wedding in Vegas, book your tickets. But yes, tragic case, glad we're covering it, completely understand while we're covering it. It needs to be covered. It's unfortunate that so much time has passed because a lot of the things that you'd like to do in this investigation, you can no longer do. But I mean, not a lot of time has passed.

If you think about it happened in 2018. I'm speaking relatively from the perspective of, of GBI. From going back and retrieving data like Arlo cameras and cell phone data and text messages between parties, GPS coordinates, whatever you could do. Also bringing in a biomechanical engineer, recreating the scene. Although you could still do that, by the way. You could still have someone at that property if it's still erect, and I'm assuming it is, and you could run through different scenarios with, especially with AI and the technology that we have today, to see based on her injuries what scenarios are actually possible, right?

Well, they did another autopsy. We're going to talk about it next week. We'll talk about it. We're looking forward to it. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you next week. Bye.