Crime Weekly - S3 Ep156: Crystal Rogers: A Family Affair? (Part 2)

Episode Date: November 10, 2023

On July 3rd, 2015, 35 year-old mother of five Crystal Rogers disappeared from her hometown of Bardstown, Kentucky. At the time of her disappearance, Crystal was living with her children and her boyfriend, local businessman Brooks Houck, who also happens to be the last person who saw her before she vanished, never to be seen again. On July 5th, Crystal’s maroon 2007 Chevy Impala was found abandoned at mile marker 14 on the Bluegrass Parkway. The keys were in the ignition, Crystal’s cell phone and purse were still in the car, and there did not appear to be any signs of a struggle, but no one who knew Crystal could understand why she would just get out of her car instead of using her phone to call for help, and the situation became more suspicious when Crystal’s family discovered that even though her boyfriend Brooks had not heard from her over night, he had not called to report Crystal missing, and he didn’t seem concerned about her whereabouts at all. What would follow was an investigation that uncovered some shady activities hiding beneath the idyllic small town appeal of Bardstown, Kentucky, and two more deaths that had many people wondering if it was all connected back to Crystal Rogers. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. SKIMS The Cotton collection and more are available now at SKIMS.com. Plus, get free shipping on orders over $75! If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you! After you place your order, select "podcast" in the survey and select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. And if you missed the big news - SKIMS reinvented underwear for women, and they are now doing it for men - also available at SKIMS.com. 2. Prose Custom, made-to-order haircare from Prose has your name all over it. Take your FREE in-depth hair consultation and get 50% off your first subscription order today PLUS 15% off and free shipping every subscription order after that! Go to Prose.com/CRIMEWEEKLY for your FREE in-depth hair consultation and 50% off your first subscription order. 3. Daily Harvest Get the best of both worlds with Daily Harvest. Go to DailyHarvest.com/CRIMEWEEKLY to get up to $65 off your first box. 4. SimpliSafe For a limited time, listeners can get a special 50% off any SimpliSafe system with a Fast Protect Plan. Visit SIMPLISAFE.com/CRIMEWEEKLY. There’s no safe like SimpliSafe. 5. PDS Debt Right now, PDS Debt is offering a free debt analysis. It only takes thirty seconds. Head over to PDSDebt.com/CRIME to get your free debt assessment today.

This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. Hi, I'm Will, and I created IQ Bar to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low-sugar brain and body fuel. Millions of people rely on our protein bars and hydration mixes to win their day. Turns out Thomas Keller, Michelin star chef of the French Laundry, is one of them. We've teamed up with Chef Keller to craft a bar and hydration mix that marry world-class flavor with exceptional nutrition. Our special edition salted caramel chip bar delivers all the decadence of a fine dining

dessert plus protein minus sugar and carbs. And our zero sugar yuzu mango hydration mix packs an authentic citrusy punch and a mental boost from lion's mane and magnesium. The best part? 10% of sales go directly to Chef Keller's nonprofit that supports aspiring young chefs. Great taste, great nutrition, great mission. Total no-brainer. Go to IQBar.com today and enter promo code KELLER20 to get 20% off all IQBar products plus free shipping. That's IQBar.com, promo code KELLER20. hello everybody welcome back to crime weekly i'm stephanie harlow and i'm derrick levasseur so today we're diving into the second and final part of the crystal rogers case but first derrick says we have to talk about some other

things. I definitely think we do. Yeah. Especially the second thing, which you guys, if you watch Crime Weekly News, if you haven't, go check it out. It's on audio and video. You probably already know what we're about to say, but this is for the people who don't watch Crime Weekly News or listen to it. So first thing, criminal coffee. A lot of you have been expressing the cost of the coffee to ship it to you is expensive. We agree. We agree. That's USPS. We make zero dollars, zero cents off the shipping.

So that's what USPS has us to. Yo, the amount of shipping makes zero cents. Yeah. Oh my God. It's one of those nights, guys. So what we're trying to do is a lot of you have been DMing us saying, hey, listen, I'm local. Can I just come by and pick it up? We can't do that. It's just not practical. So what we're going to offer is this new pilot program where if you live

within a 15 mile radius of Criminal Coffee, which is located in Providence, Rhode Island, it'll automatically detect that when you go to checkout. So if you're in Rhode Island or Southern Mass, it'll automatically detect that and it'll allow you to select local delivery. It's going to be $3 no matter what you order. You can order one bag of coffee, which is still cheaper than USPS, or you can order 50 bags of coffee. Doesn't matter. Flat rate, it's three bucks. So you can save a lot of money if you're local to this and you can just order it. We'll deliver it within the week right to your doorstep. And also we want to spread the word about coffee and get it and get it into more hands, more criminal coffee customers.

And some of you may not be directly wanting to purchase it or have it shipped to your house. So what we'd like to do is if you have a cafe near your home and it's someone you go to often and they're not selling their own, you know, special blend of coffee that's proprietary to them. See if they're open to the idea of carrying criminal coffee there. We would deliver it on our local delivery route. We'd have a little, you know, shelf set up in there. We'd have all the blends and you could go right in there. You could pick up the coffee with no shipping and anybody in

your community could pick it up as well. So you could really help us expand our reach locally first. And then if this pilot program goes really well, maybe we'll expand it regionally. We'll see how it goes. And if you are someone who reaches out to a cafe and something does come from it, Stephanie and I will come up with a nice little gift to say thank you if you're one of those people. We don't know what it is yet, but we'll figure it out. So that was the business side of things. But speaking of criminal coffee and what the whole purpose of this is, we do have an announcement with it. Big news coming up.

Stephanie's going to tell you about it. So remember that when you purchase something from criminal coffee, as far as coffee goes, K-cups or bags of coffee, a portion of the proceeds goes towards fighting crime. And our current fighting crime case was the case of Preble Penny, which was a body that was found unidentified. We really didn't know who this person was, how they died. 50-year-old case. And this is out of Preble County, Ohio. So because I think a great amount of the fact that we donated money forensically to kind of get to the bottom of who this person was, they have solved it. At least they figured out who this person was, which I think is awesome because it's very cool to think that all of us together are doing something that's having an impact in the real world and having an impact on real people.

Like this person probably has a family out there. Maybe those people have been wondering what happened to them, where they were. Maybe this person was the victim of a violent crime, and now this case can be solved. But either way, they have their identity back and they're going to do a press conference in Preble County on November 17th. Derek and I were invited to be there, but because of the holidays, it's just so busy. We both have a lot going on. We could not make it. But if they stream it, we will get on a live so we can all watch together and discuss it and just, you know, take a moment to be, you know, happy and grateful that something we all were a part of has come to fruition.

It's an amazing, beautiful thing. That's right. It's huge. And it's big for us because that's the whole reason we started Criminal Coffee was to help fund these cases that needed the funding. But it wouldn't be possible without you guys. And I said it on Crime Weekly News. I'll say it again here.

You may have purchased one bag of coffee or K-cups six months ago, a year ago, whenever we started, you were a small contributor to this case. Without you, it wouldn't have happened because this case was mostly solved by DNA. That's why they needed the funding. So we don't want to spoil any of it. We're not going to tell you anything about the case now. We're going to save that for the press conference. But what I will tell you is there the case now. We're going to save that for the press conference. But what I will tell you is there's a twist in this case like you wouldn't believe. I promise you I'm not just selling you down the road. And it's like, oh, that wasn't.

It's crazy. And it'll explain why. Selling you down the road, huh? Yeah. And it's also, it will explain why it took so long for this case. So why it was difficult. Yeah. There was a lot of trials and tribulations for this case. So it was difficult. Yeah. Yep. There was a lot of trials and tribulations in this case.

It was not easy. A lot of hard work went into it. So wouldn't have been possible without you guys. So I hope you will join us. We will actually have another audio episode coming out the day of this press conference, but put a reminder in your phone right now. We will definitely post it on social media. If there's a stream, what time it will be, we will be there and we'll watch it together. So again, thank you everybody who support us. I know

sometimes we talk about criminal coffee a lot on this podcast and some of you are a little annoyed by it, but it's our baby. It's something that we're passionate about. We're giving back to the, to some of the cases that we talk about. That's the reason for it. So we don't mind pissing you off a little bit to do it because it's super good coffee. It's super good coffee and it's for an even better reason. So thank you to everybody. This is positive news. We're making a difference. We're drinking good coffee and we're just getting started.

So we're excited. Yeah. So now we can dive into our main episode. We can. Crystal Rogers part two. Everyone was all bummed. They were like, oh, this is that case is awesome. We want to hear the rest right now.

Everyone was hitting us up on social media like, I really don't know what to do with myself this week, not recording. And I will acknowledge, I was a little lost as well. Were you? I was not, man. Well, you're always lost. So it's just like your perpetual state. I posted a video today, I think, and everyone was like was like oh my god thank you so much for still doing something

during your break and i was like i didn't know about break no same here i mean it was just like yeah all right we didn't have crime weekly but there was plenty to fill my days with yeah i still put out an episode of detective perspective i still recorded crime feed like yeah we it was just one week and it was because we had to like contractually we have to take the two weeks off a year and we're like oh shit that's that's one of the weeks we picked and i think the other ones in around christmas christmas yeah so it was we didn't even know we're like i was like oh we don't have to film next week it's our blackout week and yeah and i was like thank god because that was on the tail end of harlloween and i had so much to do and it really did help me yeah finish now we're back we're Blackout week. And I was like, thank God, because that was on the tail end of Halloween. And I had

so much to do. And it really did help me. Yeah. Well, now we're back. We're energized. We're ready to go. Yeah. Let's get into this episode. I'm gonna try not to spoil too much, although this is the final part. So it's all coming out tonight. Yeah. Spoil away. Spoil away. Okay, let's get into it. I'll do a quick recap of the case since it has been a week, since you've heard from us and since you've heard from this case. On July 3rd, 2015, 35-year-old mother of five, Crystal Rogers, disappeared from Bardstown, Kentucky, where she was living with her children and her boyfriend, Brooks Houks, who was also the last person to see her before she went missing. On July 5th, Crystal's maroon 2007 Chevy Impala was found abandoned at mile marker 14 on the Bluegrass

Parkway. Crystal's car keys, her purse, and her cell phone were all found in the vehicle, and although her tire was a little flat, it would not have been impossible for her to drive the car, and the positioning of the driver's seat seems suspicious to those who knew Crystal best. The suspicion increased when Crystal's family found out that her boyfriend had not reported her missing, even though he had allegedly woken up on the morning of July 4th to not find Crystal in bed next to him. On July 8th, Brooks Houck was interviewed at the Nelson County Sheriff's Office by Detective John Snow. And during this conversation, Brooks informed the detective that he, Crystal, and their two-year-old son Eli had spent the evening of July 3rd on his family farm, a 245-acre piece of land located on Pascal Ballard Lane, which is about nine miles south of downtown Bardstown.

He said that they arrived around 7.20 p.m. and they left to go home at five minutes after midnight. As soon as they got home, Brooks said he went to bed, leaving Crystal and their son awake. And the next morning when he got up, Eli was next to him in bed, but Crystal was not there. During this interview, Brooks got a call from his brother, Nick Houck, who was a Bardstown police officer. And Nick seemed highly agitated by Brooks still being at the police station and being interviewed by Detective John Snow. And when Brooks got off the phone, he informed Detective John Snow, basically like my brother thinks that you guys are trying to F me over, like you're trying to catch me up in something and maybe I should leave. Within hours of Brooks leaving the sheriff's office,

he and his brother, Nick, were pulling into the Houck family farm, and they remained there for a few hours before leaving at the same time. Now, all of this led to Nick Houck being side-eyed and him being brought in for an interview with the Kentucky State Police. When asked what he and Brooks had talked about at the family farm the night of Brooks' police interview, Nick said he couldn't remember what he and his brother had talked about, and he claimed they had not planned to meet out there, even though they'd arrived and left simultaneously. Now, Nick was ordered to have a polygraph administered by the FBI, which he failed. We all got a good laugh about how he reacted during that polygraph when the FBI loved him.

He's like, why are you getting so angry? Love Detective Jon Snow. Love him. Yeah. Nick Houck, not such a big fan of Detective Jon Snow, apparently. Although I think that was just an excuse for why he called and told his brother to leave. I don't think he has any problem with Detective Jon Snow. I don't think that Detective Jon Snow has some weird or nefarious reputation.

I think Nick just needed a reason of why he wanted. I will say that it's interesting you bring that part up because when he said that and me being someone who's worked on the inside, they didn't really push back on it. He was like, you know, you guys know. So I will say this,

not that it means anything in this case. Like we were going over the facts of this case and it only, it only builds from here, but I will just acknowledge this. There could be something because of the way these towns are and how they're connected. Maybe detective snow had something happen in his past that again, it might've been a one-off or whatever, but something that multiple agencies knew about involving him. And that's what he was referring to because I found it interesting because I would have said if I'm those detectives, especially knowing it's being recorded, I'm going to

look at that statement as something he's trying to set up for future use with a lawyer. And I would have questioned him on it. Well, what do you mean by that? If I didn't already know, I would have said, well, what do you, what do you, wait, hold on a second. We didn't hear the whole thing. They could have done that. You know, we don't know.

It wasn't clipped right there though. They just let him keep talking. So I, you're right. We didn't hear the whole thing, but I will say just looking at that video, I would have stopped him right there and not let him just drop that grenade and run. I would have said, well, stop for a second. What are you referring to? What do we know about Jon Snow that you know what

he's done? The only reason I could think they wouldn't is if they did know what he was talking about. And that's just a guess on my part. I'm not trying to discredit this guy, this detective. I don't know him. But I didn't mention it last episode because we were dissecting so much. But I'm glad you brought it up tonight because I know we're joking about the name Jon Snow and all this stuff. I know you're not about the name Jon Snow and all this stuff. I know you're not really that invested into him other than his name. I mean, I kind of am. Well, that's weird.

That's a different story. I think he was, I think, like, because he was very invested in this case, right? So he's always on the scene. Up until 2019, that's when a new detective took over. Detective Jon Snow was, like, boots on the ground with his ad research. Yeah. But I think he also felt almost like once he had sat down in front of Brooks Houck and heard this dude and allegedly the garbage that he was spewing, I think Detective Jon Snow knew. He was like, I'm sitting in front of somebody that definitely had something to do with this.

Oh, the math wasn't math. Yeah. The math wasn't math. And so, but I don't want to make it like this big drawn out thing, but I'm glad you brought it up because that was something I had in my notes. Like, whoa, that was interesting that he threw that out there. And he said it as almost if like, you guys know, you know what I mean? He didn't say like, I heard some stuff from my people that I, you know, made me concerned about him. He just said, you guys, he, I don't know what the exact words, but he made it seem like everyone was aware of it, which I found interesting. And I will, I'll acknowledge this as the cop on the show,

not all cops are good cops. Sometimes they do bad things. Sometimes they're good cops that do bad things because they think they're doing it for the right reason. And whatever way you slice it, we do have to have this checks and balances because we want to make sure that when these cases go to court, they're heard the way they should be heard and there's no sidetrack there because of something the police officer

or the detective did during the investigation that derails the prosecution's case, which we've seen before. So just an interesting little side note. I don't know if there's anything to it. I will tell you if there is something to it, you got to bet your, whatever money you have on you, that Brooks's attorney will be bringing that up. If there's something documented. Yeah, I couldn't really find anything. Apparently Brooks had said something like Detective Jon Snow had lied under oath or something, if he had a Giglio on him,

not good. But honestly, like we got to consider the source, man. Like Nick, how somebody that we're going to listen to when we're talking about like moral fiber and the values of being a police officer. Oh no, I'm not. Yeah. I'm not taking their word for it. I'm just saying when we're talking about this case going forward trial, we may be covering it again. And this is something that all of you have to make a note of. What was this? Was this just a red herring? Or is there something to this?

Because I can promise you defense attorneys will be looking at Jon Snow's jacket. He'll be looking at it because if the case is that strong, they're going to have to go after the source, right? They're going to have to go after the source, right? They're going to have to go after the investigators, the forensic people are going to have to go after the experts on the case because they only have to convince one jury member, right? So this may be something, it may be nothing, but I think it's important for us to bring up because it already felt like Nick was already setting it up where he's like, you know, the guy at the, you know, the captain of this ship is not a good guy. That's what I thought. Yeah, I don't think there's anything to it, honestly.

I can't find anything. And it might be internal. You might not find out about it. And that's what I'm saying. It could be something internally that was done from an IA or something like that that wasn't criminal in nature. I'll be interested to see if there's anything to it. And if we don't hear about it at trial, that gives you your answer. That means whatever he's talking about, there was nothing because I'm assuming he's going to have a high powered attorney. They've got money. So he's going to have someone who's going to turn

over some stones. You may have your boy Jose Baez there. Just saying. I think Jose Baez, I don't think he's working actively anymore. He's on a case right now. What case is it? It's that case out of Jacksonville with the husband that was killed by the ex-wife or whatever, a brigadin or something. I don't know if I'm saying it right, but he's definitely on, he's in the news right now for this. And I guess it's another tough case for him. But yeah, he's still actively working. Not that I think he's going to work this case. Well, we'll keep an eye on that case then. Sheena Gardner and her current husband, 34-year-old Mario Fernandez, they're both facing charges of first-degree murder. Gardner was arrested in August. Oh, damn. Look at him.

Look at him. Yep. He's out there. He's representing a guilty person again. Yikes. Allegedly. Allegedly. Jesus. Allegedly. Trying to get those murderers off. Allegedly. Really doing a lot of good for the world, you know? Whatever. I hate him. Anyways, all of this stuff, Nick Houck calling his brother during the police interview, Nick being involved, being at the family farm the night of the police interview, being sketchy during his interview with the Kentucky State Police, having memory loss. He didn't know what he was there for. He couldn't remember talking to him. He didn't know this.

He didn't know that. And then his failed polygraph and his behavior when he failed the polygraph. All of this led to Nick being eventually fired from the Bardstown Police Department because his actions had brought a stain of dishonor onto the city and the entire police department. Now, this was all revealed to the public the following October, at which time Sheriff Ed Mattingly also announced for the first time that he and his department did not believe that Crystal Rogers was still alive and her boyfriend, Brooks Houck, was officially a suspect in whatever tragedy had befallen her. Mattingly also said that he believed Nick Houck knew what had happened, saying, quote, I have eight pages of circumstances that lead me to look in their direction.

Yes. End quote. And here we are. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. Hi, I'm Will, and I created IQ Bar to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low-sugar brain and body fuel. Millions of people rely on our protein bars and hydration mixes to win their day. Turns out Thomas Keller, Michelin star chef of the French Laundry, is one of them. We've teamed up with Chef Keller to craft a bar and hydration mix

that marry world-class flavor with exceptional nutrition. Our special edition salted caramel chip bar delivers all the decadence of a fine dining dessert plus protein minus sugar and carbs. And our zero sugar yuzu mango hydration mix packs an authentic citrusy punch

and a mental boost from lion's mane and magnesium. The best part? 10% of sales go directly to chef keller's non-profit that supports aspiring young chefs great taste great nutrition great mission total no-brainer go to iqbar.com today and enter promo code keller20 to get 20 off all iqbar products plus free shipping that's iqbar., promo code Keller20. So during the time that all of this was going on, Crystal's parents, Sherry and Tommy Ballard, they started the process of trying to gain custody of Eli, the two-year-old son that Crystal shared with Brooks Houck. In August of

2016, the Ballards saw Brooks for the first time since they had reported their daughter missing. After the court hearing, Tommy Ballard said, quote, he made eye contact with me. I made eye contact with him. I just want to see my grandson. I'm not worried about nobody but my grandson and my daughter, end quote. The Ballards would continue to fight for Eli, but before their court date was scheduled, an arrest was made in connection with Crystal's disappearance. On December 16th, 2015, a man named Danny Singleton was arrested and charged with 38 counts of perjury for lying to investigators while under oath. Now, Singleton was an employee of Brooks Houck. He was also described as Brooks' right-hand man, and he'd been the one who had

called Brooks early the morning of July 4th. Remember, Detective Jon Snow was like, well, it's a Saturday. It's July 4th. You're not working. Why is somebody calling you like before 7 a.m.? Why would somebody who worked for you call you before 7 a.m.? And Brooks was like, you know, his his normal narrative, like, well, I'm so busy and so important. And my apartment smells of rich mahogany and I have many leather bound books. And, you know, just people call me all the time. Don't bring Ron Burgundy into this. Do not do that, first and foremost. But you can continue now, but don't slander Ron Burgundy. OK.

OK, thank you. Stay classy. But anyways, he went through his whole narrative, how busy he is, how important he is, how, you know, everybody just always needs something. And how would I have time to murder somebody when I'm so busy? And it never really was explained what Danny Singleton had called for that morning because Brooks, like his brother Nick, suffered from short-term memory loss. Now, Crystal's father, Tommy Ballard, commented on this arrest saying, quote, I say if anybody knows something, it would be him, referring to Danny Singleton. He's worked for him for a long time. I feel like that's the only person he would trust. I hope in a couple weeks they can solve

this case. I'm hoping Danny will tell them something if he knows something. I just hope it's not another five months, end quote. When asked if he would be in support of Danny Singleton being offered a plea deal in exchange for information that might bring Crystal home, Tommy Ballard said he would be in support of doing whatever it took, stating that Danny had been Brooks' employee, but he'd also been Crystal's friend. Quote, Crystal went and picked him up when Brooks wouldn't go get him after work and took him home and took him places. You'd think he'd have a heart for Crystal. End quote. You'd think, right? Now, according to court paperwork, on or about September 16th, Singleton had made 38 materially false statements

while under oath in front of the grand jury. The indictment stated that a woman named Sandra Pointer would testify that Danny had been with her when he claimed to have been in Louisiana at the time of Crystal's disappearance. Also, a man named Michael Price would testify that he'd seen Danny at his house in Bardstown on July 3rd, 2015. So once again, this is a grand jury. What happens in these grand jury arenas, we don't know unless they get released. We don't know. It's supposed to be secret, which is also going to play a part in this case.

It's supposed to be a secret. Nobody who's the subject of the grand jury, which in this case would It's supposed to be a secret. Nobody who's the subject of the grand jury, which in this case would be Brooks Houck, should know what's being said in the grand jury. So we don't know what it is exactly that Danny Singleton lied about. From what I could gather, it seems that he lied about his whereabouts during the time of Crystal's disappearance, it looks, if I had to kind of guess, that he said he was in Louisiana when he, in fact, was not. And but 38, he made 38 materially false statements while under oath in front of the grand jury. So that's a lot, right? It's a problem. So I'm sure there's a lot more that he lied about that we just don't know about yet that's going to come out during the trial in 2024 if it gets there.

I mean, I was always I kind of was trying to think like if I'm Brooks Houck, I'm probably going to try to see if I can take a plea deal. But knowing this dude, knowing this dude, because he's he is innocent until proven guilty. Knowing him, he's going to take it all the way. Because like you said, he's got money. He thinks he can hire a lawyer who's going to do enough antics and make enough appeals and delay enough where it's going to be worth his while to see if he can, especially without a body, right? Like to see if he can take his chances with a jury.

I just don't think it's going to go well for him considering the case. It does seem like it's circumstantial. But once again, we don't know what the police have. Yeah. It seems very circumstantial. It seems that way. But in totality, there's a lot there that's connecting dots. And that's only like you just said, what's been released so far. But without a doubt, this guy has money, resources, connections, and he is adamant about the fact that he had nothing to do with this. And this guy will have to, but also because it could be true to a certain degree. Maybe he didn't have any involvement with it, and that's why he's obviously so adamant about it because this is a terrible thing to be accused of if you didn't have anything to actually do with it. But yeah, you said it last episode. I mean, he has like, I don't know what it was, like 90-something properties. You said a 245-acre piece of farmland. This guy's a multi-millionaire.

Don't let the interview fool you just by a southern twang. Yeah, he's quite wealthy. They're talking about him being able to put up the money to get out on bail. And he has a $10 million bail. And he can do it. So if you don't think there's a high powered defense attorney salivating to get access to this case, not only because of the publicity, but also because of the financial gain that could come from this, you better bet your ass that someone who knows what they're doing is going

to be on this case. And all I could say to detective John Snow and everybody out there doing it, this case- Don't say his name like that, man. Put some respect on his name. Make sure you dot your I's and cross your F and T's because this is, I don't care what you have, you don't have a body right now. As far as we know though, Derek. They don't have a body. We know that for sure. How do we know that for sure? If they had found remains that were a link to her, they would have announced that. Maybe they want to wait till the trial because they took in her car, right? And they did like forensics and stuff on it, have not released what they found in that car or if they found

anything in the car. There's another car we're going to talk about, a white Buick. They also took that in, did forensics on it, have not said what's found in that car. So there could be a ton of physical evidence that we just don't know about. This is why I'm going to say I don't believe that's the case. And I'm not going to steal your thunder because from talking to you earlier, I know it's in the episode later tonight. There's something that they revealed at the bail hearing that I would absolutely consider information they wouldn't release until they were going to make an arrest.

But yet at the bail hearing, they said something that they were currently working on that they were one step away from. Doesn't have anything to do with Brooks, though, has to do with his brother. But still, it's something that didn't currently working on that they were one step away from doesn't have anything to do with brooks though has to do with his brother but still it's something that didn't have to be out there i am absolutely positive if they had confirmation that they had elements of a human remains that belonged to familial dna that matched crystal not only for the community but also for her family everyone would know that they had that. They wouldn't link it to whoever yet.

They would just say we found the human remains for Crystal. All right. So here's what I think they have. I think they have physical evidence that they found in one or both

of these vehicles. And keep in mind they also went through Brooks' vehicle. What do you mean by physical evidence? Like that proof she was killed?

DNA, blood, yeah, something like that. The proof she was in those vehicles at some point. I think they have that. They went through Brooks's house. They went through his brother's house. They went through his mother's house, his grandmother's house.

They went through all of their vehicles. They found something somewhere in one of these places that physically ties Crystal and her murder to these people. I also think based on the people that they've arrested, they have somebody always difficult because you're left with two major, major hurdles to overcome. One, you have to try and prove or at least explain why you think that the victim is deceased. Secondly, you have to prove or at least articulate why you think that she was killed at the hands of another. It's not enough just to say she's dead because the argument could be made. She died of natural causes. She got lost in the woods. And so you have to prove those two things without a body.

It's extremely difficult and it makes it a very, it makes it an easier process for a defense attorney to poke holes in your case. So they got a big battle here. I know on the surface. And like I said, we covered this on crime feed. That's how I became aware of it. And you know, Nancy Grace, she's big on it. She's like, you know, he did it. She even, she's the one person who actually interviewed Brooks and she has no problem being like, yeah, he's, he's lying through his teeth. And I don't necessarily disagree with her, but I do think that what we believe and what can happen during a trial are two very different things. And that's not my belief. We've seen it. We have seen it happen

time and time again. And so I'm, this is not a case where I'm going into it thinking, oh my God, this is a slam dunk. This is a slam dunk. We're good to go. There's some, there's some, I just hope that everybody who's working this case is, is taking it seriously, which it sounds like they are, by the way, I'm not suggesting that they're not, it sounds like they know what they're up against. This is a very influential family and they know that they have money. And that 1000% is in the back of the minds of everybody working this case, knowing that when they go to court with this, they're going to have all the go to court with this, they're

going to have all the cannons directed right at them and they're going to hit them with everything. So they got to treat this case not only as investigators, but also as defense attorneys. So they're prepared for both. Yeah. Considering that this is going on a decade of being unsolved. They know so much more. So much more than they have released because it's actually crazy to see. Like they'll announce an arrest, but then they won't say anything about it. And you kind of have to like piece things together through different articles and stuff.

Whereas you don't usually see people or law enforcement keeping things that close to the chest. So that's why I think they have a ton and I cannot wait. You know, wait to the trial. But let's get back to Danny Singleton. OK, Danny Singleton gets arrested. He's charged with 38 material false materially false statements while under oath in front of the grand jury. He would be indicted on all 38 charges, but he pleaded guilty to 38 lesser charges of false swearing, and he was sentenced to 360 days in jail. It was another phone call the Ballards didn't want to get, this time from the Nelson County Commonwealth's attorney.

He told me that that's a year in jail. So I said, okay, so that's a year. So does that mean he has time served? And he said, pretty much. According to the Commonwealth's attorney, Danny Singleton, the man indicted on 38 counts of perjury in connection to Crystal Rogers' disappearance pled guilty to 38 lesser charges of false swearing. His sentence, 360 days. Disappointed, but you know we've been disappointed so many times that you get to where you don't know what to think anymore because you just don't know. You don't know who to trust. You don't know what to do. After almost eight months in jail, Singleton will spend the remainder of his sentence on probation. If he gets out, what do we have now?

Singleton was indicted in December after police say he lied under oath early on in the investigation into Crystal Rogers' disappearance. He is a longtime friend of Rogers' boyfriend, Brooks Houck, who police named as a suspect but never charged. And Rogers' parents say they've always thought he's known something that could help them find their daughter. I always said if he trusted anybody outside their family, it would be him. Even though the Ballards say this is just another setback, they say there is a silver lining. Now, they may be able to talk to Singleton themselves. I would like him to look me in my face and tell me he had nothing to do with my daughter. It's still unclear exactly what Singleton lied about under oath,

but the Ballards say they hope that now that he has pled guilty, that they'll be able to get those documents and find out for themselves. And real quick, just a reminder, that's from 2015. A lot has happened since that video. So we have to remember that that's from 2015. A lot has transp since that video. So we have to remember that that's from 2015. A lot has transpired since then. We're going to continue going with it. We're going to take a quick break.

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from leaving Kentucky with Eli, who he still had custody of despite being named as a suspect in Eli's mother's disappearance. In the motion, the attorney for the Ballards stated that Brooks being a suspect, his brother being fired from the Bardstown Police Department, and his employee being indicted on perjury charges might have made Brooks want to leave the state. And they found out that Brooks had also been attempting to sell many of his real estate holdings for below market value. So basically, like, he's just trying to take what he can get for these things. Don't live up to cash.

And get some cash and maybe get the hell out of Dodge, right? That's what they were worried about. Now, at that point, Tommy and Sherry were, you know, did have custody of their four other grandchildren. And they were able to see their grandson, Eli, once a week on Saturdays. But for some reason, Eli's siblings had still been unable to see their brother. And basically the Ballards were like, we want to have, you know, more time with him. And we want his brothers and sisters to be able to see him. And what the hell's going on here? And this has been a constant battle.

In fact, custody for Eli is still being dealt with in court between Sherry Ballard and Brooks Hauck's mother. And, you know, since Brooke has been arrested, it's just been a mess. I feel so bad for this kid. On June 1st, 2016, 82-year-old Anna Whitesides was subpoenaed to testify in connection with a white Buick that she had owned at the time of Crystal's disappearance. So Anna is Brooke's grandmother. While the police were conducting their investigation, Crystal's father, Tommy, had been doing his own investigation. Crystal's mother, Sherry, said that their family had spent countless hours looking for Crystal, and Sherry said, quote, from the minute that

Crystal went missing, my husband was like the investigator. He went around town. We picked up every video. He mapped out every area that he thought our daughter could have been in. If he wasn't physically looking for my daughter, he was on the internet looking at everything, end quote. It appears that Tommy had also hired a private investigator who, kind of through asking around, had discovered that a white Buick had been parked at a peculiar location on the Houck family farm the night Crystal had vanished. Apparently, a hunter had seen the Buick there. posted about the car on Facebook, and they received a message that basically claimed the Buick they were looking for could be located at the home of 82-year-old Anna Whiteside, who, like I said, was the grandmother of Brooks Houck. Additionally, a witness had come forward and said that he'd seen Crystal's car around 10.30 p.m. on the night she went missing,

and it was on that Bluegrass Parkway. And this person had also seen a white car pulled off the road about a mile from Crystal's car. And they described it as being this white Buick. Now, Tommy Ballard gave this information to the police who confirmed that Anna Whiteside had owned a white Buick at the time that Crystal went missing. But it had been sold to a dealer in early 2016. The subpoena claimed that the car might have been used to transport and dispose of Crystal Rogers' body before the car had been cleaned and sold so that the authorities could not retrieve evidence from it. When Anna Whiteside was subpoenaed, she pleaded the fifth and refused to say anything. Her lawyer, Jason Floyd, claimed that Anna had been cooperative with the police, she'd been interviewed twice, and she'd willingly led them to the dealer who she'd sold the car to. But even after this, police had subpoenaed her

and she had every right to plead the fifth at this point. That's what her lawyer said. The Buick was recovered and searched for forensic evidence before being released. No charges were filed against anyone in the Houck family at that time. And the Ballards were obviously frustrated by this, saying, quote, we want to know who drove the car. And she knows. And that's why she isn't telling, end quote. Although the police have not revealed if they found anything in the Buick, Tommy Ballard did state at the time that he had heard they'd found DNA in the car. And years later, for the Oxygen series, The Disappearance of Crystal Rogers, reporter Stephanie

Bauer and retired homicide detective Dwayne Stanton, they were able to track the Buick down and they performed additional forensic testing on it. They met with forensic reconstruction specialist Joe Stidham, who reexamined the car, found some interesting pieces of potential evidence. Under one of the seats, Stidham found a GPS unit. And he said, quote, the GPS is a big find. It looks like an older model. So I don't think it's something the dealership placed in the car. It could potentially tell us where the car was in July of 2015 when Crystal went missing, end quote. Stidham also found fluid stains on the lining of the Buick, which he said he planned to test for human blood. Now, I don't know if they

ever did find anything in the car. I don't know if the GPS unit led them to anything. I don't know if they found any DNA. I think it's, I don't know, it's doubtful that the stain did test positive for blood or at least Crystal's blood because police and prosecutors claimed a year later that the show had not turned over any new evidence to them. But they could just be saying that because they don't want people to know that there was evidence found. I don't know. It's it's very it's hard to sort of pin it down. Well, the whole thing's troubling. Well, on the surface, obviously, very does not look good for for the family. For the Houck family, obviously the vehicle,

it makes a lot of sense that if Brooks was involved in Crystal's death or disappearance or both, he would have needed another vehicle or someone else to be with him to transport him or to pick up whoever drove Crystal's vehicle to that location, right? And dumped it there. It would have been a two-person job.

So it could be a situation where Brooks calls up his grandmother, Anna, and says, Hey, Graham, I need the vehicle. Can you get your Buick for a little bit? I'm going to be transporting some stuff. Can I borrow it? And that could be why she's claiming, claiming the fifth, because she doesn't want to admit that Brooks had the vehicle that day. Or it could be a situation where he said, Hey, Graham, I'm stuck on the side of the road. Can you come pick me up? And he might not have told her everything, but just said, hey, I'm stuck over here in Crystal's car. Can you come grab me real quick?

Yeah, no problem, grandson. I'll come get you. She picks him up and she's not an idiot. So she's realizing this is bad. And I'm just better off not saying anything. Like, I didn't know what happened. I didn't know what he was using it for I didn't know what he wanted me to pick him up. But if I say that he had me come pick him up from crystals car

He's done. So i'm pleading the fifth because i'm not going to go there now that's speculation on my part I'm not saying that's what happened him and nick. This is just speculation on my part Him and nick could have taken her car. Yeah, grandma. She's like in her 80s. She's asleep. They go in her house, grab her keys. She's asleep. They don't even tell her. But then after, when they find out Tommy Ballard's on to the white Buick because they see that it's being posted about on Facebook, they have to go to her now and they have to say, yo, listen, grandma.

We got to get rid of this car. So we took the car that night. We didn't do anything with it, but it's going to look bad. It's going to look bad, grandma. And you know, we're sweet little innocent choir boys. We would never do that, but it's going to look bad. So it would be best if you just don't say anything at all. Yeah. And now as far as the car itself, let's unpack that real quick, right? So the car itself, obviously you want to have the car. That's great. But chain of custody becomes a huge issue with this, right? The car itself obviously you want to have the car that's great but chain of custody becomes a huge issue with this right the car was sold to a dealership you got tons of people in

and out of it it's been cleaned yeah can it be proven that crystal had been in that vehicle even one time before her disappearance where she was in that car willingly because it was again her grandmother as well technically now and Now, well, they weren't married, but they were, were they married? Crystal and Brooks? Yeah. No. They weren't married. They just had one son together, Eli. So they weren't technically married, but they were living together. So now Graham and as part of her family as well, maybe Crystal had been in that vehicle before. So that could explain some of the DNA. As far as the oxygen series with them doing the testing and the GPS unit after the fact, let's just say for the sake of this conversation, it's all legit.

The problem again becomes, and I've dealt with this as a detective on TV, right? The chain of custody is not the same. The question becomes- Do you think that would matter with the GPS unit though? Because we can't really matter with that. If I was a defense attorney, I would say, how do I know you didn't take a GPS unit off another vehicle that reprogrammed it and stuck it on that car before you started filming? Now, I don't think that happened. I know some of the guys you're talking about from the Oxygen series.

I know they didn't do that. But that's not what's important. Yo, what if there was something on the GPS unit and it led them to where Crystal's body was, but because it's like fruit of the poisonous, what, fruit of the poisonous tree or something? Well, it would have to be, no, that wouldn't, but if that were the case, it wouldn't fall into that because let's say they got it from a TV show that did a search of the vehicle. They turn it over because everything would have to be turned over to law enforcement, right? If it's lawfully obtained where they didn't steal that car out of a junkyard. They got the car.

They did a search on it. These are trained investigators. They say, hey, can we get an investigator over here? We just found something. Comes over here. The detective takes possession of that GPS unit, runs it. That's not fruit of a poisonous tree. That's honestly legally lawfully obtained.

But you said it was like a chain of custody issue. What I'm saying is the chain of custody issue and the integrity of the evidence itself, right? So if I'm the defense attorney and there's this raw footage of these investigators on TV, which they are actually investigators, by the way, but they're on TV saying, oh, look what I found, a GPS unit that apparently everyone else missed, right? I would, as a defense attorney, say, how do we know that? Because you said that that car was already searched. So how do we know that you didn't take that GPS unit off another vehicle, program some hack into it where you can change the

coordinates, stick it under the fender, turn the cameras on, and pretend like you found this massive smoking gun? Sure. And that's what I'm saying. If that GPS unit led to Crystal's body, the defense could argue to have the GPS unit thrown out. Therefore, whatever they found because of that GPS unit could not be introduced into court as evidence. I'm not a lawyer. I love where your head's at. I'm not a lawyer.

But I wouldn't say that would happen because here's what I think would happen, right? Fruit of a poisonous tree is if they go into someone's house, they illegally unlawfully take the evidence and it leads to something positive. Right. But if that evidence that could be in question, like, is it actual really evidence or was it just something for TV? What are the chances if it's fake that the GPS coordinates on the unit are going to actually lead to the victim's body. Well, they could say, oh, they found her body already. They knew where it was. And now they're framing him by putting it in the GPS, putting those coordinates in the GPS that was in his grandmother's car. So now they're framing him.

And they could even go, they could go further and say that the investigators on the show were involved in this and actually acting as agents of the show were involved in this and actually acting as agents of the state. And therefore, even though they weren't employed by the law enforcement agency, they're acting as agents of the state. And therefore the procedure in which they can obtain that vehicle is different because now they're being recognized as officers. Yeah,

there's problems with it. And there could be something connected to it. I would hope that oxygen turned everything over, especially if it's on the up and up and police officers got involved like Jon Snow and said, hey, don't do anything else. We missed it. Thank you. We need that.

Don't touch it. Don't do anything else with it. We're effectively taking that from you with or without your consent. We're going to issue a search warrant for it. We need that. So that could have happened. Crazy.

Crazy. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. So the year 2016 also brought many law enforcement searches of the Houck family farm, which was owned by Rosemary Houck, who's the mother of Brooks and Nick. Now, this property had already been searched within days of Crystal's disappearance because law enforcement had claimed that police dogs had picked up no scent of Crystal in her abandoned car, but the dogs had attracted her scent to the Houck family farm. Once again, where did they pick up the scent, if not in her car?

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. They didn't reveal that. But allegedly, they really focused on the Houck family farm and came out publicly and said many times, Detective Jon Snow said to the media, they believed that something had happened to Crystal on that farm. So obviously, they're searching it within a couple of days. And police spent about four hours on the farm the day obviously they're searching it within a couple of days. And police spent about four hours on the farm the day of the first search. But if they found anything, it was never

revealed. After this search, Tommy Ballard had asked the Houck family if he could search the farm with cadaver dogs, but he was told no. In August of 2016, law enforcement returned to the property with a search warrant, 18 cadaver dogs, more than two dozen investigators, and a dive team. This search lasted two days, and afterwards, police revealed that they had found items of interest that were taken to the state crime lab to be analyzed, with Detective John Snow saying, quote, we were hopeful that we might find more, but you find what you find, and the evidence takes you where it takes you. I don't anticipate coming back to the farm, end quote. All right, so here's what I think about this statement.

I think they found plenty. Oh my God, here you go again. Dude, I think he's playing- What are you going to do when you find out that everything we know is what they found? I know that's not the case, but Jesus. No, it's not the case. He's Detective John Snowman.

I hate that you keep calling him by his full name. He's like Dick Tracy. Cool as a cucumber. Winter is coming, man. What do you you keep calling by his full name. He's like Dick Tracy. Cool as a cucumber. Winter is coming, man. What do you mean when you find out that Jon Snow has this horrible jacket where he's like a terrible cop? It's not. It's not the case. Cool as a cucumber. I think he's

playing this down. I don't anticipate coming back to this farm. They were back at that farm five, six times. The FBI went back to the farm. They were back to the farm a million times after he said this, right? I wish you talked about me like you talk about Detective Jon Snow. I do, just not to your face. Clearly not, because nobody ever says this. He's really downplaying this to the media because he doesn't want Brooks or Nick or Rosemary or Anna or any of these freaking hokes to get spooked and take off running,

right? He doesn't want them to start hiding evidence. So he's like, oh, we're not going to be back to the farm. I wish we'd found more. I think they found plenty. And we know for a fact that they went back to that farm several times for more searches and continued collecting evidence from the farm. And we'll find that a huge piece of evidence would be found at the Hauck family farm

when later on. Yeah. Well, let's add one more layer to it. Yes. Layer it up. He's going after one of his own. This is a chess match against another police officer. Yes. Somebody who smeared his name and reputation. This is another police. There's another police officer involved in this equation who has friends and acquaintances that are probably friends of his. This is a close knit community. They're neighboring departments. He's probably known of Nick prior to this incident. He's got to be careful of what's being disseminated in his own police department because he doesn't know what friends nick has on that pd

true so this is a really difficult situation to so to your point he could be keeping a lot close to the vest because he's not only protecting it from the media but from but he's also protecting it from his own people yeah there could be a movie down he road. He's navigating this with grace, I would say. You better hope for your sake this guy is half of what you're portraying him to be. Listen, my gut instinct about people is never wrong. Your car is hitched to this horse. I want you to know that. I'll tell you, my gut instinct about people has never been wrong.

Sometimes I ignore the red flag. Sometimes I ignore my instinct. But it has never been wrong. I'm not going to say nothing. I know. I said sometimes I ignore it. Okay. Okay. To be fair. So this search, apparently we don't really know exactly what items of interest were collected, but the Ballards claimed that at least one piece of farm equipment was seized. And remember, Detective John Snow was asking Brooks about that backhoe. He was asking him about it. He was real interested in it. The backhoe that Brooks went back to the farm on July 4th, hanging out at the family farm on July 4th

when his girlfriend's gone and he don't know where she is and he's messing around with the backhoe. Okay. So two days after the search, divers went into Melody Lake. So Melody Lake is near the Houck farm. And this lake has been, once again, the focus of multiple searches. Reportedly, cadaver dogs continue to indicate to a small portion of this lake multiple times. They sent divers in, but allegedly the divers did not look at this small portion of the lake. Although that doesn't make sense. So that could just be false reporting. Because why would you not look at the place that

the cadaver dogs continued indicating? The Ballards have tried to get the lake drained multiple times. They aren't able to do that. It's a pretty big lake. So divers have gone in multiple times. They haven't found anything. But that doesn't mean that there's nothing to be found in the lake. It just means they haven't found it, if there is. That's fair. Now, by the fall of 2016, Crystal's father, Tommy Ballard, was telling people he knew that he was onto something that might finally lead to the truth about what had happened to his daughter. Tommy's search for the truth had become his entire life, and he'd meticulously documented everything in a box, including photos, videos, timelines, searches. And in Tommy's box, Stephanie Bauer and Dwayne Stanton found multiple surveillance videos that he'd collected from around town. And that white Buick, the one that was owned by Anna Whiteside, that was seen in many of them, which meant that

even before law enforcement had started questioning her and had, you know, put her in front of a jury and tried to get some answers. Tommy Ballard was putting two and two together. He was already hot on the trail. He was. And he was telling people close to him. Nothing like motivation, like a father's love for his daughter. For real. You can't top that.

And at the beginning of November of 2016, Sherry Ballard told a local radio station that she believed and Tommy believed that he was being followed by someone. And then two weeks later, on November 19th, 2016, Tommy Ballard, Crystal Rogers' father, was shot dead during a hunting trip. Hunting trip? This was no hunting accident. Can we air quotes for people on video? No, he was on a hunting trip, but it was no hunting accident as law enforcement initially rolled it. We went back and forth on this. I saw reports from Sherry that said they hadn't gone hunting yet. You don't agree with that. I mean, there's interviews with Sherry and her son, Casey, who was there.

I think from what Sherry was saying is they were going on a hunting trip, but they weren't actively out hunting yet. Why were they on the land where they were hunting then? Yeah, it's a big plot of land, but they hadn't, they weren't like actually hunting at that point yet. They were getting ready to go. Regardless, they went out with the intention to hunt. That is correct. And that's what Sherry said, but everyone's like, oh, they were out in the woods and they were already actively hunting and he was killed. No, that's not what happened. So it looks like they were not in the woods. They were in an open sort of area. But here's the thing. Okay. So let me break it down. That morning, Tommy, his son, Casey, who's Crystal's brother, Casey's son, Brendan, and Crystal's 12-year-old son, Trip, they left to go hunting early in the morning when it was still dark.

They were planning to hunt on the Ballard family land, which is actually adjacent to the Bluegrass Parkway where Crystal's car was found. The four had split up. Casey and his son, Brendan, went off together, and then Tommy took Crystal's son, Tripp, out. Later, Tripp would report that they were, you know, in this kind of like open area. There's like woods on the outskirts and then there's this open area there. He and his grandfather are there and he heard a loud gunshot just before 8 a.m. And then his grandfather fell to the ground. The bullet had entered Tommy Ballard's chest and exited through his back. One bullet, one bullet. This is somebody, somebody shot him who knows how to shoot somebody. Right.

And by the way, open field. So you have accidents sometimes where hunters are on the same land, but this is again, this was private land, I believe. This was the Ballard land. It was private land. So nobody else should have been out there, but you do have situations sometimes where I actually had this happen to one of my best friends growing up. Him and his father went out hunting.

His father actually shot him. He mistaken him for a deer. They got separated. Dude, my father got shot in the knee by his cousin when they were out hunting. He was like 19. So it does happen. But like you said, Tommy was out in an open field. You would definitely be able to identify your target if you're making a shot that accurately.

So whoever shot him knew what they were shooting at. 100%. And there's evidence of this. So Tommy Ballard at the age of 54 was pronounced dead at the scene just a year and four months after his daughter had vanished. A year and four months where he made himself a nuisance to the Houck family, where he told anyone and everyone that it was his mission to his dying breath that he would find out what happened to his daughter. And he was on the path to doing that. From the moment that they found out Tommy was dead, his family was not buying the story that it had been a hunting accident. Tommy's son Casey said that everyone knew he and Tommy would take the first week of rifle season

off of work to hunt. And everyone knew where they hunted because it was their land. It was their land, yeah. Yeah. The police would later claim that the shot had come from an opening in the wood line. So the wood line is like you've got a forest and then kind of like an open area. And so the forest would be the wood line. And Casey said this opening in the wood line, it had not been there in the 14 years that they'd owned the property.

And police would locate branches of trees that had been freshly sawed off. And this opening in the wood line, it had not been there in the 14 years that they'd owned the property. And police would locate branches of trees that had been freshly sawed off. And you can tell when branches have been sawed off or broken off. You can tell when they're fresh because they're still going to be green on the inside. They haven't been exposed to the air long enough to harden up and darken up. Still going to be green. You're still going to be able to see the sap and everything. And whoever did this had sawed off enough branches to leave an opening where they could get a clear shot at Tommy.

And just this year, new information has been revealed by prosecutors suggesting a very possible connection between Tommy Ballard's death slash murder and Brooke Houck's brother, Nick, former police officer who suffers from short-term memory loss. They're waiting on tests to come back on the firearm they believe was used to murder Tommy Ballard in 2016. And he revealed the gun came from Brooke Houck's brother. A firearm that we purchased from Nicholas Houck's brother. A firearm that we purchased from Nicholas Houck, who was using a fake name when he sold the rifle. We know it's the same caliber.

There's five criteria that they're looking at, and so far it's matched for the five criteria. At this time, no members of the Houck family have been charged in connection with Tommy Ballard's death. So this is what we were alluding to earlier, right? There's a lot here. They're already starting to put some of this stuff out there. They're talking about the different criteria. You're going to be looking at the type of weapon, the caliber of weapon, the firing pin indentations on the rifle casings themselves as they're being

fired. And also we've talked about this before, the striations as the rounds, the shell casings are being extracted from the rifle. So they'll get this rifle. They purchased it from Nick. You and I had talked off camera about this. We can get into it here, but it does sound like what you're saying, like maybe there was an undercover operation or something where they purchased a gun directly from Nick, knowing it was Nick, but he was giving a fake name. Yes. So then they take this rifle. They're going to go to a crime lab.

They're going to fire that rifle multiple times inside of a controlled environment. They're then going to take the shell casings that they find there. If they have shell casings at the crime scene, they would compare them. I don't know if they do or not. Along that wood line, I don't know if they were able to find the shell casings. I'm assuming that the person would have taken those shell casings, especially. It was one bullet, right? One single bullet. And man, not good, right? That the brother of the person who's alleged to have killed this woman and who this brother may have been involved in some way

just so happens that a gun kills the victim's father and it happens to belong to the brother of the suspect. Yikes. Yikes. And why did they release that? They released that before charging Nick nick which to me i found surprising honestly i found they have to they like you said they they want to get that fifth that fifth characteristic characteristic but i wonder what it is that they're waiting on but

it's obviously something that's taking a little time i mean the casings and all that i don't know sell it dude why there's more to this got to be i don't know I don't know. Why did he sell it, dude? Why? There's more to this. Got to be. I don't know. I don't know how this all came to be, but he was probably trying to dump that gun. I don't know why he wouldn't have just destroyed it.

Just dumped it. Yeah. Yeah. So and because he's not smart. OK, like, I'm sorry, Nick. I know you're probably listening, but you're not smart. I know you think you are because you were a cop, but you weren't a good cop. You're not smart because you said a bunch of stupid things during your interview with the Kentucky State Police. You lost your cool at that very calm, condescending polygraph examiner. You're not smart. And you thought, I'm going to use a fake name. They'll never figure it out. You're not smart.

Because the ATF was involved, right? The ATF has said it's been assisting with the case since Crystal went missing in 2015. And it was using special agents and technical assistance from its ATF National Lab along with the Crime Gun Intelligence Center in Louisville. So listen, they are on this. I think they probably already know. I wouldn't be surprised if we see that Nick Houck is arrested and charged very soon, honestly. No doubt.

Yeah. Unless there's something dramatic that happens, I agree with you. And they said that they purchased it from him right yeah and you were like oh is that what happened and i thought it was a pawn shop or something no it looks like nick thought he's going to use an alias and sell it but he didn't know that he was selling it to a member of law enforcement which yeah once again they are they have so much more going on it could have been a confidential informant thing as well it might not have been they have so much going on that we don't know about it could have been someone who came to me and said listen nick's trying to sell me a gun you know and they could

have gotten involved in and they what we would do is provide the money for that purchase or whatever so we're technically buying it even though this confidential witness isn't an actual law enforcement agent no it's uh it, it's crazy. This case, we said it from the start when I started telling you about it, this case is actually going to end up being a movie one day. I really do think so. It's that, so many layers to it and there's still more to go. You know, Nick is shaking right now, man. I'm yeah. Like, he, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but it gives me so much pleasure to know that, because I truly believe, and this is just my opinion,

how would I know? I truly believe that Brooks Houck and Nick and others were involved with Crystal's murder and or disposal of her body. I believe when Nick Houck sat down in front of those law enforcement agents, he knew exactly what happened to Crystal, who has five kids who no longer have a mother. And that dick sat there and acted like a smug piece of shit.

Like he had it all under control and he knew exactly what he was doing. You're stupid. You're stupid. You sold law enforcement the gun that you used to kill her father with you would dumbass shaking i hope you're shaking i hope you're having ulcers and you're like so stressed out that your doctor keeps giving you xanax but it's not enough it's not enough all right now we can go to our last break all right well let's try that again Let's go to our last break and we're going to wrap this episode up. All right. We'll be right back. All right. So in July of 2017, Kentucky State Police were seen at 730 Pulliam Ave in Bardstown. This is the residence of Anna

Whiteside. If you remember, Anna Whiteside. Grandma. Is grandma. Yeah, she's grandma. 80-something-year-old grandma wrapped up in this. Anna's attorney later said that he had not gotten a call about the presence of police at his client's home, and he didn't know what they were looking for. But the information he did have about the search was pretty vague, and all he knew was that they were there for bullets and reloading equipment. And he believed the search was in connection to the death of Tommy Ballard. He says this in 2017. Detectives were seen leaving the home around noon with a long object wrapped in paper. Also in July, a woman named Crystal Maupin was arrested after surveillance

footage showed her getting out of her car and taking signs that were placed there by Crystal Rogers' family to raise awareness about her disappearance. And then this Crystal Maupin girl was like ripping them up and throwing them out and getting rid of them. Now, who's Crystal Maupin? Well, she happens to be the current girlfriend of Brooks Houck. Which is funny because you dated another girl named Crystal? And this Crystal girl was like, yeah, this is safe for me. Some women.

Not long after she does this, though, more signs began to appear around Bardstown. Signs like this are popping up all over Bardstown, pointing fingers directly at the Houck brothers. They grab your attention, and that's the point. I saw the signs. They are very blunt. Sherry Ballard is making it through another Fourth of July without her daughter, Crystal Rogers. She disappeared four years ago. Sorry, it's just been a rough week. No one has ever been charged.

Without any clear answers, Ballard vows to never let anyone forget Crystal. And when these signs popped up overnight, she says it's comforting. Brooks Houck was named the number one suspect in my daughter's disappearance, and it makes me feel good to think that people out there believe the same thing that I do. We don't want it to die down. We don't want her to be forgotten. This person wants to remain anonymous, but admits to being one of several people planting these signs in the early morning hours of July 4th. They put out 75 signs with specific phrases.

We chose Nick failed the polygraph because Nick did fail the polygraph. Another sign, Brooks Houck is the only suspect in the disappearance of Crystal Rogers. You know, you're still the only suspect, and we want to keep that out there. And this one, ride the wave. It's worked out this far. It refers to a statement Brooks Health made to WDRB. Ride the wave and keep on keeping on. And that's what I've done,

and it's worked out great this far. We still think that he's very cold and disrespectful to the family. Uncaring he never really seemed to be. At all bothered by her missing, you know, and that's the mother of his son at the bottom of the sign. We're praying for sharks.

Another clear pointed message. Overall goal is we still don't have answers. We still don't have justice and we need to keep them in the public eye until we do. They know in their heart what happened. Reporting in Bardstown, Katrina Helmer, WDRB News. Ride the wave. We're praying for sharks. Yeah, he was. He's not media trained, that's for sure. Oh my God. I don't know, I've been told to just ride the wave. It's worked out great so far. It's worked out great so far. Buddy, you do know

you're on here because the mother of your child's missing, right? Worked out great so far. Buddy, you do know you're on here because the mother of your child's missing, right? Worked out great so far. We're praying for sharks. By 2018, Sherry Ballard had successfully gained grandparents' rights, so she was able to see her grandson Eli every other weekend. the court ruled that Eli's relationship with his father was more important than his relationship with his grandmother, because Brooks had testified that after Eli's visits with Sherry, a now six-year-old Eli would return home sullen and uncooperative. And the Kentucky Court of Appeals ruled that Sherry could no longer see Eli since it was clear that there was significant hostility existing between the Houcks and the Ballards,

and this could pose a risk of emotional harm to Eli. I see where they're coming from on this. Yeah, I get it. Of course there's hostility, right? Yeah, of course. It's justified, but I can see how that could be difficult for the kid in this situation to have to experience that. Of course. I mean, the whole situation is difficult for poor Eli. He's six years old. In 2020, the FBI took over as the lead agency investigating Crystal's case, and in August, they released new information about an area of interest in her disappearance. People who lived in the area of Poplar Flat Road and Farm Away Drive in Nelson County were asked to come forward if they'd seen or heard anything unusual in the early morning hours of July 4th, 2015. There was a special interest in

surveillance footage that anybody might have. And after this request went out, obviously people sent in their surveillance footage and the FBI released photos of two vehicles that they said were related to the investigation. One was a white SUV and a red SUV driving near the My Old Kentucky Home campground. A second photo, which had been taken at 3.45 a.m. on July 4th, showed an unidentified vehicle on Balltown Road, which is close to the intersection of Pascal Ballard Road, which if you remember, that's where the Houck family farm is located. It was also revealed that the FBI had conducted more searches on multiple properties,

including homes belonging to Brooks and Nick Houck. Of course, the Houck family farm. They went back to Anna Whiteside's house. You know, they were really up the Houck's ass, basically. On the morning of August 7th, more than 150 state and federal law enforcement officers began executing nine federal search warrants and announcing that they would be conducting over 50 interviews. These homes and properties have been searched numerous times, but what do you think makes today and the massive searches different? Well, today, as we have been hearing from our reporters in the field. The FBI is now the lead investigator in this case. 150 state and federal law enforcement officials are now on scene investigating this. 50 interviews

today. That's a lot of questioning of people in Bardstown surrounding this case and nine federal search warrants. We have seen these properties searched in the past but this is the most extensive we have seen now in 2016 in august of 2016 about a year after crystal disappeared we did see another extensive search this was also on the hauck family farm that's about 200 300 acres that's a lot of property they were there for about two days and we saw a lot of evidence being collected and this search today is very reminiscent of the search a few years ago but we never heard anything from that search so we're wondering when are we going to get information from this search as well today so any thoughts on what might have prompted the FBI to take over this case and these massive searches today five years after Crystal

Rogers disappearance well my understanding from talking to the lead detective at the time from and these massive searches today, five years after Crystal Rogers' disappearance. Well, my understanding from talking to the lead detective at the time from Nelson County, he was saying that they had executed over 70 search warrants over the past few years. And I'm wondering if all of these searches are now puzzle pieces coming together and maybe the FBI has a lot more resources than the Nelson County Sheriff's Office. The Nelson County Sheriff's Office also posting on facebook this afternoon saying the FBI has much more resources than they do. So they are happy. They are willing to release everything over to the FBI and they are very proud of the work. They say that they've done so far that can help move this forward now that the FBI has taken over as the lead investigating agency.

In August of 2021, federal agents were seen in the Woodlawn Springs subdivision where Brooks Houck owned several properties. Actually, this was where he was building three houses at the time of Crystal's disappearance in 2015. Google Earth images from 2014 show the homes under construction, but the driveway of one or two of these homes were not yet finished. Now, these houses were owned by Houck Rentals LLC, which is owned by Brooks Houcks, who lived just two miles away from that subdivision. Officers used drone cameras, ground scanners, and cadaver dogs on these three properties, and on the third day, they began digging up the driveway of one of

these homes. These are some of the concrete slabs hauled away from the home, dug up from the driveway, which appears to be a central focus of the FBI's dig. FBI agents were back for day three of their investigation outside of a home in the Woodlawn Springs subdivision, large construction equipment was still in the front yard of the home, with most of the driveway dug up. Pieces of the driveway, along with large piles of dirt, were hauled away from the scene. We don't know exactly what led the FBI to this neighborhood or this house, but we do know that suspect Brooks Houck's construction company built houses here back in 2015, the year that Crystal Rogers disappeared. The FBI says it's focusing on finding any evidence that could shed light

on what happened to Crystal. We talked to a former FBI agent of 22 years. He served on the evidence response team and gives us an idea of what the FBI could be looking for. We're all assuming they're looking for a body and you know it's probably a good assumption but they could also be looking for murder weapons, cell phones, any kind of evidence related to the underlying crime. The former agent tells us the agency must have received a pretty substantial tip or piece of information in order to be digging up people's yards like this. The FBI says it does not have a timeline on when this search could wrap up, but it will continue for as long as it takes. FBI agents are guarding the scene overnight, and neighbors expect them to be back for the

rest of the week. In Bardstown, Sarah Seidry, WDRB News. In a statement, the FBI said the search came as a result of information gathered by the federal investigation from the past year. And Sherry Ballard said that volunteers with Team Crystal, which is basically the community members who came together to keep searching for Crystal, they previously searched that same area. And a cadaver dog had hit on a dirt mound. But in the end, they hadn't found anything. But she was also saying, and you heard in that clip, they wouldn't be digging up somebody's driveway for no reason. You know, they have to have a good reason to start digging because somebody lives there. There's a reason. They have to have a good reason to dig up the driveway. And it may not be as the former FBI agent said in that video, it may not be that they

thought a body was there, but there could be something because they were towing away, you know, pieces of asphalt, something in there that they were testing for, that they were looking for specifically. In 2023, this year, developments in the case began happening rapidly. On September 7th, 32-year-old Joseph Lawson was arrested in connection to the Crystal Rogers case. Now, at this time, as far as we know, Lawson has no direct ties to Crystal Rogers or Brooks Houck, at least as far as we know. But his father, Steve Lawson, we would recognize that name because he was mentioned in 2015 during Brooks' police interview with Detective John Snow. During that interview, Brooks called Steve Lawson. And Lawson told Brooks, quote,

I just want to tell you I'm sorry about everything that's going on in your life, brother. I got you in my prayers, end quote. Brooks responded back, quote, I appreciate you saying that, but I need your help while I got you on the phone. Do you remember the night you called me really, really late? I forgot what you asked me. Can you remember what you asked me or what you were after? I can't remember. End quote. Now, Lawson responded, of course he remembered. He said, oh, I asked you about some numbers for houses. And Brooks was like, oh, yeah, the rental properties. And Steve Lawson's like, yeah. But then Lawson also said, you know, you told me to Brooks, he says to Brooks, you told me to call

Crystal about something work related. And so Detective John Snow's like, wait, this was when you were driving home from the family farm with Crystal and Eli in the car because you were there with them that night. Why would Steve Lawson have said that you told him to call Crystal about something work related when she was sitting right next to you in the truck? And of course, Brooks is like uh uh i mean like it was late and like crystal doesn't deal with like work stuff when it's late so that's probably why but like he clearly didn't have an answer and he came up with that and pulled it out of his ass i would have said she was sleeping honestly if you want to ask me i said she passed out she was sleeping in the car on the way home so i didn't want to wake her but well that would contradict that she always stayed up late too so he was like she was fighting multiple battles here yeah you know well she was sleeping

in the car but you said earlier she always stays up late yeah but she also always falls asleep when we're in the car but she is a narco she also has narcolepsy yes so um yeah at that time brooks told detective snow listen steve lawson is someone who works for me sometimes he does work for me sometimes and you know he was the one who called him late that night that crystal had disappeared Detective Snow, listen, Steve Lawson is someone who works for me sometimes. He does work for me sometimes. And, you know, he was the one who called him late that night that Crystal had disappeared. Now, at the time of his arrest, Joseph Lawson, who is Steve Lawson's son, he's in a wheelchair and he's paralyzed from the waist down, apparently from a 2021 motorcycle accident. However, this man has a very checkered past. WDRB Investigates has gone through more than a dozen court files to learn more about the Nelson County 32-year-old. We found several

women accused him of domestic violence between 2009 and 2021. In this case, in May 2015, just before Rogers disappeared, a woman said Lawson chased me through town telling me he was going to kill me and everybody I loved. In November 2020 in Marion County, he was found guilty of strangulation and unlawful imprisonment. Court documents show the woman's bruises and marks. The woman says Lawson threatened to kill her. Another court document from October 2020 shows a woman told the Marion County Court she didn't want her fiance Lawson to be prosecuted, adding, I do not know if I'm allowed to say the details, but Joseph is also assisting in a federal investigation. Just what that federal investigation is is not known. Lawson

himself claims to be a domestic violence victim. Officers responded to the Super and Motel on a report of a woman beating on Lawson in hospice care. Court documents say his father saw the woman hitting Lawson and he was able to hold her down until she was arrested. His records show Lawson's highest education level is a GED and he is self-employed in construction. This sheriff's office report says his full name is listed as Joseph Joey Stephen Lee Allen Lawson and records show he's moved around a lot. There's definitely a period where he was homeless. Wearing orange, Lawson had a court hearing in Washington County, Kentucky via Zoom last week from a hospital bed. He is wheelchair bound. Obviously we all know Mr. Lawson's got

circumstances in Nelson County. While his criminal mischief charge in Washington County has nothing to do with the Crystal Rogers case, his Nelson County charge was brought up too. I'm just curious as to when he got picked up on the charge out of Nelson County because obviously whenever he was around, I need to know. I've got actually kind of a limited amount of information that's being given to me by Grayson County Jail. So I don't really have a time frame for which I think he may be free of those medical concerns. But all that being said, it's preventing me from actually visiting him. Lawson was in a motorcycle crash years ago and it's believed his injuries are related to that. What are some of your frustrations with the case and how it's going? It's still early to say that I'm frustrated. There has been, you know, some unusual delays that, you know, for example, I would have already seen my client by now. His attorney, Kevin Coleman, is representing him in Washington County and now in Nelson County for charges of conspiracy to

commit murder and tampering with physical evidence in the Rogers case. For his actual charges, what does that tell you about the case? He was not charged with murder. I'll decline to comment on that just because I don't want to speculate about it's pretty obvious, I think, as far as what's implied by that. And I'll let everybody else, you know, make their own inferences. All right. So we're going to come back and discuss Joseph Lawson. Oh, yeah. This all ties in together when we sum everything up. A Nelson County grand jury returned a true bill on charges against Joseph Lawson, conspiracy to commit murder in tampering with physical evidence. According to the indictment,

both charges stem from an incident on the Fourth of July weekend in 2015 when Crystal went missing. He's been accused of destroying, mutilating, concealing or removing physical evidence and aiding in the commission of planning a crime that intentionally caused the death of another person. So they have some real evidence here that Crystal's dead. I think that they must. Yeah. Lawson was scheduled for a pretrial hearing that was supposed to happen in October of 2023. But for some reason, the judge pushed the date of this pretrial hearing to 2024, January 2024. It's unclear why the hearing was moved, but it looks like both the defense and the prosecution agreed with this. So I think, I think that Joseph Lawson told the police something about Brooks Houck, right? Because he's arrested before Brooks. He's arrested before Brooks. Shortly after Brooks was arrested. And then on September 27th, Brooks is also arrested and he's charged with murder and tampering with physical evidence in the case of Crystal Rogers. So we've got Joseph Lawson, who, as far as we know, doesn't have direct ties to Brooks,

but his father did some work for Brooks and called Brooks the night, like right around midnight, that Crystal disappeared and then allegedly covered for him when Brooks called him in the presence of Detective John Snow. Hey, do you remember what I called you about? Oh, yeah, actually, I do. You know, so it's all starting to fall into place. And think about it. So we can kind of weigh in it here where with Joseph Lawson as an investigator, if Brooks is your main guy, if Brooks is the one that killed Crystal, right, for the sake of this conversation, allegedly,

he's going to go to his grave saying he didn't do it because he's got nothing to gain by admitting to it. He's the last line of defense, right? For the sake of this conversation, allegedly. He's going to go to his grave saying he didn't do it because he's got nothing to gain by admitting to it. He's the last line of defense, right? But as an investigator, especially when you have multiple people who are involved, multiple people who are connected to this crime, that's a win because not everyone's going to have an equal part. So you want to try to identify the person. I think I've said this phrase before, the person with the least involvement, but the most to lose or the weak link, if you will. And you want to find the person who may have just disposed of a garbage bag, right? Just dispose of a garbage bag. But when you charge them with the same crime, conspiracy to commit murder, which, by the way.

Well, Brooks was charged with murder. But when you charge Joseph with conspiracy to commit murder- You're getting- It carries the same sentence. It carries the same penalty, yeah. You can go to prison for the rest of your life for disposing of a bag in a driveway that was still healing as far as curing, I should say, not healing. And you're going to go to prison for the rest of your life for that?

So he's the guy you want to attack. He's the guy you want to bring in and break down and let him know, hey, listen, I know you got your father. Your father is loyal to him. You will. We're going to charge you with first basically first degree murder here. And you're going to go to prison for basically having nothing to do with this. Is that really how your story is going to end? And obviously that person is going to end? And obviously that

person is going to be more inclined to cooperate. And so as you just laid out, they finally start to connect the dots. They finally start to identify a weak link who had very probably minimal involvement. Maybe, maybe Edmore, we'll find out. But at least- The type of person he is, he could have had a good deal of involvement. He could have. I don't think he did it because his father's loyal to Brooks. I'm sure he was paid. I'm sure he was compensated in some way.

On the back end for sure. Not directly, but they can still find out. Did this person, who usually didn't even have a home to live in, was transient, going from place to place. He might have been a laborer on a couple job sites too. Couldn't keep a job. He listed his job as being a construction worker. There you go. He been a labor on a couple job sites too couldn't keep a job he listed his job as as being a construction worker right he's a laborer but he's he's a contractor so he's just contracted out did he receive a large sum of money at some point that really didn't add up to

any substantial work that he did and they're going to be able to find that out and they're going to come to him with this for sure yeah no so they they bring him in. He sings like a canary, right? He starts telling them what he knows and they're able to connect more dots. And based on now what they have from Joseph's statement, he'll probably get a deal, right? He'll get a deal when this is all said and done for his testimony. And they're going to go after the big fish, which is going to end up being more than likely Brooks. And then also Nick, also Nick, because depending on how that all ties, but they're brothers. So they're not going to, they're not going to turn on each other. It's going to be actual evidence, the circumstantial evidence surrounding it, where they might even be in a

situation where who knows, maybe they can't connect Nick directly to Crystal's disappearance and death, but they get them on Nick directly to Crystal's disappearance and death, but they get him on the murder for Tommy Ballard. It could be something like that. But I do think they have a mountain of evidence here. And now the fact that there's other people involved, that is music to a detective's ears. Because if there's only one person who knows, and that's the main guy, there's no incentive for him to cooperate. But when you have other people who may have involvement, that's a huge win for law enforcement. And here's the thing. We don't know what Joseph Lawson has. That dude could be like,

I don't trust these freaking Houks. Maybe he kept the burner phone that he used to communicate with Brooks or Nick or his father. And he can prove that there was communication around that time, right? Because he's being charged with a crime on a very specific date. So they'd have to, that 4th of July weekend, they'd have to have something that showed he did something that weekend, some sort of real evidence in order to charge him with that. So he could have kept something to protect himself, knowing that this day would come, which is another reason why Brooks is an idiot.

An idiot. You said they were like the Duttons. Hell no, they're not. They think they are. They think they're this little Bardstown mafia. But in reality, once again, two can keep a secret if one of them is dead. The more people you bring in, the weaker you are. Loose lips sink ships.

The more susceptible you are to somebody turning on you because they may be loyal enough to you to get their hands dirty, but they are not loyal enough to you to go to prison for the rest of their lives while they're in a wheelchair on top of that. It's going to be so good. I cannot wait for this trial. Anyways, so Brooks, he's being held on $10 million bond in the Nelson County Jail. His lawyers are real pissed about it. They keep trying to get it reduced. His lawyer, Brian Butler, called it unreasonable, punitive, and oppressive. And he filed a motion for Brooks' bail to be lowered to $500,000 with the promise that he wouldn't contact the Ballard family, and he would also wear a GPS ankle monitoring device. But Judge Charles Sims, he decided ultimately to keep the bond the same, since he was like,

listen, we're protecting cooperating witnesses, okay? Maybe you and your family have a tendency to take out people when they're getting too close to the case. We're protecting them. We're also protecting evidence of grand jury recordings, which I believe that Brooks's lawyers would have access to by now. And based on Brooks's financial status, we think he can handle this. If he really wanted to get out, he can afford to get out. So it's not punitive and it's not oppressive. And also, you know, Brooks wants a fair trial, right? He wants a fair trial. So he should go along with this because this is what's fair.

And this is going to keep everybody who's going to be a part of this trial on the same page. Now, apparently, to take it even further, which shows you like, and I do have to give the Houck family credit here. They are a strong family unit. They protect each other, which I respect to some extent. But there's evidence that members of the Houck family secretly recorded grand jury proceedings, which, once again, are private. You're not supposed to do that.

One recording was allegedly made by Brooks' sister, Rhonda McElvoy. Brooks shows her how to run the recorder, tells her he wants a tape of it. The question is why? To make sure everyone's story is consistent. It's been stated before, the truth will set you free. The problem in this matter is the truth will imprison Brooks Houck. And we're asking your honor. That's Shane Young, the special prosecutor assigned to the Crystal Rogers murder case,

talking about Brooks Houck and his sister. Grand jury proceedings are secret. That's where regular members of the public chosen to be on a grand jury determine whether someone should face criminal charges. They don't decide whether a defendant is guilty. That's what a jury does. We talked to Terry Gohagan, the Nelson County Commonwealth's attorney. He says he subpoenaed the Houck family within two weeks of Crystal Rogers' disappearance back in 2015 and interviewed members of the Houck family. He says at the time there was no reason to believe they had recorded the grand jury proceedings. Goh He says at the time there was no reason to believe they had recorded the

grand jury proceedings. Gohagan says when the FBI search Brookhouse mother Rosemary's farm years later it found the recordings in a jacket in a closet. He says a family took micro recorders into the grand jury room that could be easily hidden in a pocket.

Young talked about the recordings on Thursday. Defendant sister Rhonda McEvoy Houck, brother, Nicholas Houck, mother, Rosemary Houck, brother-in-law, Alex McEvoy, and Rosemary Houck's live-in boyfriend, Larry Mott, all recorded, secretly brought in recorders and recorded the grand jury. I've been practicing here, Your Honor, for 25 years in this state, and I have yet ever heard of anyone recording a grand jury. The other way you look at that is law enforcement, local law enforcement, comes out and says you're the prime suspect and releases evidence and gets you excoriated on podcasts and medias and signs and

yards. Who in their right mind wouldn't want to know what was being said? Gohagan says that the recordings were discovered in 2015. The house who recorded them could have been charged with contempt of court. It's a misdemeanor with a fine of up to $1,000 and a year in jail. But misdemeanors can only be prosecuted within one year of the crime. So Gohagan says too much time has passed to charge anyone now. By the way, I think he was calling us out podcasts. Dude, it cracks me up because Brian Butler comes on, right? Brooks is lawyer. And he's like another way to look at this. That's one way to look at it. I know it's illegal and you know, you shouldn't do it. And if you do

do it, it's most likely for nefarious purposes. But on another, cause now you're putting people in danger, right? You're putting people, witnesses who are testifying at the grand jury who are told you're safe. Say whatever you want. This is a secret. This cannot get out. You're putting them in danger, which is another reason why, yeah, Brooks needs to keep his ass behind bars. Okay. That's why his bond so high because he doesn't follow the rules.

He thinks he lives above the rules, outside of the rules. They all, dude, his brother, his sister, his sister's husband, his mother, his mother's boyfriend. They all brought in recorders and they're recording the grand jury proceedings. And then his lawyer is like, another way to look at this is, you know, know i mean he's being like talked about on podcasts and why wouldn't you want to know what's being said about you because you can't dude because you can't we all want to know everybody who's the subject of a grand jury would like to know what's being said about them but you can't you can't it's can't. It's against the law. But now the statute of limitations is up by the time. They found the recorders.

Yeah. So but in Rosemary's house in a jacket pocket. Once again, these people are not smart, man. They're not smart. If criminals were smart, they wouldn't get caught. But I'm saying that's why Detective John Snow was like, oh, it's unlikely we'll go back to the farm because he was like, yeah, keep your shit at the farm. How can we keep it there? It's unlikely we'll go back. Wink, wink. Okay. So these people are kind of like scumbags,

right? This Houck family, they're kind of scumbags. They all know what Brooks did. They all know that Nick helped him. Allegedly, it's just my speculation. And they're covering and then now they're implicating themselves in the process. And they have a lot to lose this family. That they do. But apparently it doesn't matter. So listen, this is kind of where we're at with this. At this time, Brooks is expected to be back in court in February of 2024, where evidence that has been gathered will be presented and a jury of his peers will decide whether or not Brooke Houks is truly involved with the disappearance and murder of the mother of his child, Crystal Rogers. And I'm really looking forward to this trial. I'm really looking forward to this trial because just from the things that have been dropped since his arrest, I feel like that's the tip of the iceberg. For me, it's to just summarize this because I feel like most people are going to be aware of where we're going with this. Obviously, this is just our opinions.

He's innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But on top of everything else we've covered over these last two cases as far as what happened before the incident, what happened during the incident, you also have to think about the phrase consciousness of guilt. Right. During the incident, you also have to think about the phrase consciousness of guilt, right? And what that refers to is a suspect's behavior after the alleged incident. What type of practices do they proceed to carry as what the sister did, what the mother, grandmother did. That is a consciousness of guilt. It's an understanding that something has happened and now you're trying to cover your tracks. So that all in totality does not look good for the House family. But I'll also say you just, there's no other suspect because the narrative that was being conveyed by Brooks does not make sense as an investigator. Crystal and Brooks allegedly came home late that evening with Eli. She didn't tell him she was going out. There would be no reason for her to go out early in the morning without telling him. He probably would have known that. We're just to believe that Crystal out of nowhere got up in the middle of

the night or didn't go to sleep at all. It got in her car, drove down the road and just stopped, pulled her car to the side of the road to get into a car with someone else or was trying to fix something and got picked up by someone. And this is how it came to be. And there's been nothing in the forensic evidence, the digital data to show that Crystal was having communications with another person at that time who could have been picking her up, who could have been a potential suspect. So when they do this case, they will be looking at all the inculpatory evidence that they have against Brooks and anybody else. And they will also be ruling out any potential exculpatory evidence, anything that could say, hey, what about this person? Could they have done it? Could this rule out my client Brooks? Could this rule out my client Nick? They're going to do both.

They're going to give both scenarios so that they're not able, the defense team is not able to create a level of reasonable doubt within one of the jury members, which could potentially get Brooks or Nick or the combination of them off. So I think it's a pretty solid case, although circumstantial, I do think it's pretty solid and that's our opinions, but we'll see how it plays out and I'll definitely be following along. Yeah. I mean, I'm, like I said, I'm very, I'm very excited to see Brooks go to trial and we will do a follow-up episode when that happens. We'll do a follow-up episode about what's revealed during the trial. We'll basically do a, I don't know, delayed part three to this. Yeah. We'll cover it because I'm sure it's going to be a lot.

No, so that's going to be good. We're going to wrap this one up. We don't even know what case we're covering next. We're going to talk about this. We've thrown out a couple ideas already. We will let you know. So we can't even spoil it because we don't know. But just a kind of reminder, Criminal Coffee, local delivery, now available, Rowan Mass.

If you have a cafe in the area, let them know about us. Give them the information. Send them to the website. Get their contact information, email us, let us know if they're interested. We'll do the rest. And if something comes from it, we'll take care of you. And then most importantly, Preble Penny, November 17th, when there's a time, if there's a time, we'll let you know. We will hop on live. We will watch it live with you. So we can all experience that together as they announce the information around this case, because each and every one of you who've contributed to criminal

coffee have now also contributed to this case. So it's going to be great. Looking forward to it. Any final words, Stephanie? No, I am. I'm definitely really happy with how this this case is going now. And I'm really looking forward to the probable penny announcement, even though I don't know what it's going to say, but I'm looking forward to everybody. We've been involved with it. It's been trying at times, but it's good.

It has been trying. It's been, I've been, Stephanie can attest to this. I've been on this one now. She's been, she's been seeing the email chains. And then he calls me and he's like,

yeah, I'm like, what's going on here? You know, but anyways, we're there. We're there. And we're just getting started.

We got more cases to come. Everyone stay safe out there. Have a good night. We will see you next week. Bye.