Crime Weekly - S3 Ep164: Lindsay Clancy: A Mother's Struggle Leads to Tragedy (Part 1)

Episode Date: December 8, 2023

Those who knew the Clancy family of Duxbury, Massachusetts would describe them as happy, loving, and completely normal. Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General Hospital. Her husband Patrick worked as a consultant for a technology company, and by 2023, the couple had been married for six years and they had welcomed three beautiful children into their family: 5-year-old Cora, 3-year-old Dawson, and 7-month-old Callan. Neighbors recalled that Patrick was a very loving father. They would always see him in the backyard playing with his kids. Lindsay and Patrick never fought. They said "I love you" to each other ten times a day, and above all, they both worked hard to provide and care for their family. So when Lindsay was charged with the murders of her three small children, the shock and disbelief was palpable, and no one could wrap their heads around how something this unfathomable could happen to a family who seemed to love and value each other so much. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. Prose Custom, made-to-order haircare from Prose has your name all over it. Go to Prose.com/CRIMEWEEKLY for your FREE in-depth hair consultation and get 50% off your first subscription order today, PLUS 15% off and free shipping every subscription order after that! 2. Alo Moves Take care this holiday season with an Alo Moves wellness routine that fits your schedule. Get a 30-day Alo Moves subscription and 20% off an annual membership by going to AloMoves.com and use code CRIMEWEEKLYVIP. 3. Liquid I.V. Grab your Liquid I.V. Hydration Multiplier Sugar-Free in bulk nationwide at Costco, or you can get 20% off ANYTHING you order when you go to LiquidIV.com and use code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout. 4. IQBAR Refuel smarter with IQBAR'S Ultimate Sampler Pack. That's 7 IQBARs, 4 IQMIX sticks, and 4 IQJOE sticks. And now, our special podcast listeners get 20% off all IQBAR products, plus FREE shipping. To get 20%, just text WEEKLY to 64000. 5. SKIMS Believe the hype - SKIMS has over 100,000 five star reviews for a reason. SKIMS Holiday Gift Shop is now open, and get free shipping on orders over $75 at SKIMS.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you! Select "podcast" in the survey and select our show, Crime Weekly, in the dropdown menu that follows. 

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manage it from one place and tie it all together with a personalized domain name. Gear up for success with a brand that says you best. You can do it yourself on Wix. with a personalized domain name. Gear up for success with a brand that says you best. You can do it yourself on Wix. History's masterpieces wouldn't be the same without their most notable accents. Neither would the Kia Sportage

without its multiple drive modes. The Kia Sorento without its expansive 12.3-inch panoramic display. Or the Kia Telluride without its three rows of spacious seating. The 2025 Kia SUVs. Kia. Movement that inspires. Call 800-333-4KIA for details. Always drive safely. Limited inventory available. Those who knew the Clancy family of Duxbury, Massachusetts would describe them as happy, loving, and completely normal. Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse at Mass General

Hospital. Her husband Patrick worked as a consultant for a technology company, and by 2023, the couple had been married for six years, and they had welcomed three beautiful children into their family. Five-year-old Cora, three-year-old Dawson, and seven-month-old Callan. Neighbors recalled that Patrick was a very loving father. They would always see him in the backyard playing with his kids. Lindsay and Patrick never fought. They said, I love you to each other 10 times a day, and above all, they both worked hard to provide and care him in the backyard playing with his kids. Lindsay and Patrick never fought. They said, I love you to each other 10 times a day. And above all, they both worked hard to provide and care for their family. So when Lindsay was charged with the murders of her three small children, the shock and disbelief was palpable. And no one could wrap their heads around how something this unfathomable

could happen to a family who seemed to love and value each other so much. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are diving into a new case, and this is actually an ongoing case. So Lindsay Clancy has not gone to trial yet, but I think there's important conversations to have about what happened here, why it happened, why it's speculated that it happened. Because obviously, Lindsay and her defense team are going to say one thing, and the state, the prosecution, they're going to say another. But I think there's important conversations to have about this case and about Lindsay,

her three kids, her husband, Patrick. And it is something that we need to talk about. And it's going to be a difficult case for a lot of people. But once again, I do think it is very important. Yeah. And I will say for some people where the last couple episodes I had a familiarity with the cases, I can honestly say I have never heard of this case. And I know some people are going to be like, oh my God, how have you never heard of it? I've never heard of it. The name Clancy only is familiar to me because of Tom Clancy. So I know zero information about this case. I'm coming into it cold.

So I may have some more questions this episode, which hopefully answer some of your questions out there. But yeah, I hate these cases. We don't do them a ton. I honestly think the last time we covered, and you're going to probably know the name, I can't remember. It was one of the first cases we covered very early on. And I just looked it up. The case was Liliana Carrillo. It was the one, I think it was three children. We did one part on that one. It was back May of 2021. Wow. Yeah. A little while ago. Yeah. They're very difficult. And it doesn't matter if you have kids, if you don't have kids, the thought of taking the life of a child is for any normal, typical human who's right in the head. It's not a good thought to have.

And a parent killing their child is objectively the most horrific of crimes. And when it happens, we do like to think that it's a rare occurrence, but the statistics, they kind of state otherwise. On average, 500 children are killed by their parents a year in the United States, and 72% of these child victims are aged six or under. Now, we still might push back on these numbers and say, well, yes, but it's more than likely the offending parent in these cases was the father. And we'll bring up examples like Chris Watts. The reality is, in filicide cases, mothers are just as likely to be the culprit as fathers. And Cheryl Meyer, a forensic psychologist and author,

has stated that it's probable that a mother kills a child somewhere in the United States once every three days. According to Philip Resnick, a forensic psychiatrist and pioneer in the study of filicide research, there are five major reasons a parent might take the life of their own flesh and blood. The first is altruism, where the parent believes that what they're doing is in the child's best interest. Now, this belief could be based in reality,

like, for instance, say the child's suffering from a painful and terminal illness, or it could be because the parent is planning to take their own life and they feel it would be unfair to leave their child behind in a cruel and uncaring world. The second reason is acute psychosis, where a parent kills their child based on ideas that are not rooted in reality. Maybe they believe their child's possessed by a demon, or they believe certain conspiracy theories that say the world's being taken over by lizard people who plan to enslave the human race. The third reason would be simply that the child is unwanted by its parent, and so the parent eliminates what they perceive to be a burden or a hindrance from their own life.

I would say that this is why Chris Watts killed his daughters and his wife and his unborn child. The fourth reason would be that the child's death was brought on by physical abuse at the hands of the parent, but it was not the parent's intention to actually kill their child. And lastly, Resnick believes that spousal revenge is also a reason that one parent might kill their child or children in order to hurt their spouse. Now, in the case of Lindsay Clancy, her legal team is arguing that at the time she took the lives of her three

children, she was suffering from undiagnosed postpartum depression or undiagnosed postpartum psychosis. Now, most of us are familiar with the term postpartum depression. And if you've given birth to one or more children, I'm sure you've experienced it to varying degrees because it's quite common. Nothing to feel ashamed about. In fact, I would be shocked if any woman was able to go through the hormonal and physical changes brought on by pregnancy and childbirth and feel completely fine and normal in the aftermath.

After childbirth, the levels of hormones in a woman's body drop very quickly. This leads to chemical changes in the brain that may trigger mood swings and fluctuating emotions. Add to that the stress of having a new baby in the house, sleepless nights, days spent walking the floor with a crying infant in your arms, feeling alone and isolated. There are going to be some periods of depression, anxieties, feelings of being inadequate, feelings of being overwhelmed, low energy, loss of interest, a sense of being detached from who you were before, and even sometimes intrusive thoughts of hurting yourself or your baby. Now, postpartum psychosis is much more rare. Experts estimate that it occurs in one to two

out of 1,000 births, but it is far more extreme and dangerous, and it needs immediate and emergency attention because it can affect the mother's sense of reality. It can cause hallucinations, delusions, paranoia, and other behavioral changes. Postpartum psychosis is temporary and treatable, but like I said, it's best if this condition is identified immediately for the best outcome and to prevent the mother from potentially hurting her children and or herself. So I question for you because I personally, fortunately, have never experienced any of this, whether it was with my own children, my own situation or friends or family members. Without saying names, do you know of anyone that you personally um dealt

with that has gone through something like this because it seems like so unrealistic but i know like it's more prevalent than you think i guarantee you you know somebody who's gone through it but i just don't know it they don't talk about it because they feel ashamed it's a it's a shameful feeling you've you're you're told and you taught. Growing up as a little girl and then a young woman, oh, being a mother is the best thing ever. Having, you know, a baby and being pregnant and giving birth, like you will never feel happier. You'll never feel more whole.

So in the aftermath of giving birth, when you don't feel that way, when you feel empty, when you feel like, I mean, there were times where I was like, I don't even know who I am. Like I would look at myself, my body, like my face, because your hormones are just out of control. Like they're not doing what you're used to them doing. And it affects every facet of your life. And I'd be like, I don't even, what am I doing?

Like I suck at this. I am terrible at this. And I did have postpartum depression after my third child. So I didn't, I don't believe I had it after Nev or Aiden, but Bella was especially hard. That's interesting. You didn't have it after the first two, but after the third one, no real difference, knew what to expect and still had a situation like this. Yeah. But in the throes of it, I had no idea that that's what I was experiencing. I just thought I sucked. I thought like, why can't I get this right? Why do I feel so horrible all the time? Why do I look at my own child and feel resentful towards her?

And Bella was my hardest baby. She cried all the time. You couldn't go in the car without her crying. She screamed in the car every second. So I couldn't even leave the house. She was born in January. So it was the middle of winter. So I couldn't take her outside and walk her around.

I was just stuck in this house every day with this screaming alien who is a complete, she's a complete, and you know, you've met Bella. She's lovely. She is the best man. She's an angel now. She was not initially very bad, very bad. Didn't sleep all night. Very bad. Very bad. Did not sleep all night long. I remember I climbed in her crib with her one night and slept the night in this crib. And I don't think my body has ever been the same because I was like scrunched up all night.

I slept on the floor by her crib. I slept with her in my arms in a like rocking chair. Nothing worked. I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't eating. There was days I couldn't shower. And I didn't want to say to anybody I was struggling because there is an aspect of shame to this. There's an aspect of like, this is what you're meant for. This is what you're biologically meant for. You shouldn't be struggling with this. And that's what you tell

yourself. So oftentimes, you don't get help because you don't ask for help because you think, especially someone like me I should have this so I just need to be better at this, but then you just put more stress on yourself So yeah, I had no idea what was happening until one day my husband looked at me and he was like, I don't know You need something something needs to happen here. Like something's going on, you know Yeah, obviously him knowing you as well as he does seeing you through two childbirths already. He obviously saw a difference I still feel like I haven't recovered from the sleep I lost during that year. I haven't slept right since. Oh, our kids owe us a lot of sleep back. I'm saying, man, that pregnancy and

the afterbirth of that pregnancy has changed my patterns, everything. It's very impactful. So yeah, it's far more common than you think. And you probably do know somebody who's gone through it, but they didn't talk to you about that because it feels in the moment shameful. Yeah, and shamed by it. Yeah. And you don't want to ask for help because it's like, I shouldn't need help.

Like it's a little baby. It's me with all my experience, all my knowledge against this little baby that just came into the world and I can't win. I can win. I can do this. I don't need help. So yeah. And then, yeah. So I never would even call anybody over. I would sometimes want to take a shower and I'd be like, I wish there was somebody here that could just hold this baby for five minutes so I could take a shower. But there wasn't. So there we are.

But yeah, it sucks. It's not fun. I can't even imagine what postpartum psychosis would be like, because you would be completely out of control at points. And that's what Lindsay's defense team is basically going to argue, I believe. So we can talk about what happened that day. But before we dive into that, because it is going to be very traumatic, let's take our first break and give ourselves a quick buffer. You set the gold standard for your business. Your website should do the same. Wix puts you at the helm so you can enjoy the creative freedom of designing your site just the way you want. Want someone to bounce your ideas off? Talk with AI to create a beautiful site together. Whatever your business, manage it from one place and tie it all together with a personalized domain

name. Gear up for success with a brand that says you best. You can do it yourself on Wix. Okay, so January 24th, 2023 seemed like an uneventful day for 32-year-old Lindsay Clancy and her three children. In the morning, Lindsay brought five-year-old Lindsay Clancy and her three children. In the morning, Lindsay brought five-year-old Cora to a pediatrician appointment, and later at home, she and the kids played outside and built a snowman, during which Lindsay snapped pictures and sent them to her mother and her husband, Patrick. Patrick Clancy, who had started working from home so that he could be there for his wife and support her. They had just had a, not just, but Callan was I believe seven or eight months old. So still a little. And he wanted to be at home more to help her and support her if he needed to be. And if she needed him

there, she had struggled with some postpartum depression in the past. She'd been struggling with some mental health issues after the birth of Callan. And so Patrick basically started working remotely so that he could help her. Patrick would later say that Lindsay appeared to be having one of her better days that day. She was smiling and happy. Nothing about her behavior suggested that something dark and chaotic

was boiling under the surface. Patrick had been worried about his wife for the past several months since their third child, Callan, had been born. And since the previous September, his worry had increased as Lindsay's maternity leave was drawing to been born. And since the previous September, his worry had increased as Lindsay's maternity leave was drawing to a close, and she had expressed to him that she was starting to feel anxious about returning to work. In July of 2022, Lindsay had posted to Facebook

discussing her past struggles with postpartum anxiety when she had given birth to her first two children, but she had seen several doctors and mental health experts. She'd been put on some medication, and six weeks after Callan was born, Lindsay shared on social media that she was feeling much more dialed in, that she felt that focusing on her nutrition, her mindset, and exercise had made all the difference for her. So on that night when Lindsay asked Patrick to run out and grab some dinner and to grab a few things from the drugstore, he didn't really think anything of it. Court records would show that Lindsay was busy using her cell phone for over an hour around this time. At 4.02 p.m., she searched kids Miralax, and at 4.13 p.m., Lindsay searched takeout 3V.

3V refers to a restaurant in Plymouth that wasn't super close to her home. There was other places that were closer, but the family had gotten food from there before. She then used Apple Maps to calculate how long it would take for someone to drive there to the 3B restaurant and back to her home, which was located at 47 Summer Street in Duxbury, Massachusetts. At 4.47 p.m., Lindsay searched the CVS website, and then she called the CVS location in Kingston, where she spoke to a manager and asked if they had children's Miralax. At 4.53 p.m., Lindsay texted Patrick, who was working in his basement home office, and she asked, quote, any chance you want to do takeout from 3V? I didn't cook anything. It's been a long day,

end quote. Patrick said he would, and Lindsay told him to look at the menu and, you know, tell her what he wanted to order. He asked her what she was going to get. She told him she was ordering a Mediterranean Power Bowl, and he said he would get the scallop and pork belly risotto. At 5.10 p.m., Lindsay called 3V. She ordered the food and gave them Patrick's name as the pickup person. At 5.15 p.m., right after Patrick left the house, Lindsay sent him a text that said, Pedialax stool softener.

Surveillance video showed Patrick at the Kingston CVS at 5.32 p.m. in the children's medication aisle. And because he was unsure of which brand to grab, he called Lindsay at 5.33. But she didn't answer. At 5.34 p.m., Lindsay called back. And Patrick and Lindsay, they shared a quick 14-second call. And Patrick described this call as being unremarkable and completely normal. Although he did say that when he talked to Lindsay, it seemed as if she was in the middle of something. At 5.54 PM, Patrick was paying for the food at

3V before heading home. He'd been gone just over half an hour, but when Patrick got home at 6.09 PM, he found the house eerily quiet and he didn't hear Lindsay or the kids at all. So he actually called Lindsay's cell phone at 6.09 p.m. He wanted to see, like, where she was, you know, where are you guys? But she didn't answer. He then went upstairs to the bedroom that he shared with his wife, but he found the door locked. When he eventually got inside the bedroom, Patrick noticed that a window in the room was open. There was blood on the floor in front of a full-length mirror in the bedroom, and on the nightstand next to the open window lay a bloody knife. He then ran outside to find his wife Lindsay laying face up on the ground in the backyard,

unresponsive but conscious, with cuts on her wrists and her neck, so he called 911. While he waited for paramedics to arrive, Patrick asked Lindsay what had she done, to which she responded that she had tried to take her own life and then she jumped out of the window. He then asked Lindsay where their kids were, to which she replied, in the basement. Patrick waited by Lindsay's side until emergency responders arrived, and then he told them he was going to go and find his children, Cora, Dawson, and Callen, while EMTs worked on Lindsay. While all of this was happening, Patrick was still on the phone with 911 dispatch. Patrick can be heard on the 911 call entering the home and heading to the basement. At one point, he calls out, guys.

He can then be heard screaming in agony and shock as he found his children. His screams seem to get louder and more agonized as the time passes. Cora and Callan were on the floor in the den area of the finished basement, which is to the left when you walk down the stairs. While Dawson was alone on the floor in his father's home office, which is to the right when you go down the stairs.

Each child still had the exercise band that was used to strangle them tied around their necks when their father found them. Dawson and Kellen were face down on the floor. Cora was on her side with her torso turned towards the floor. He removed the bands and begged them to breathe. He continued to scream uncontrollably and screamed for officers to come to the basement. The dispatchers are hearing this and they send to come to the basement. The dispatchers are hearing this and they send help down to the basement. And when they encounter Patrick, he yells out, she killed the kid. All right, we're back. I'm quickly reminded why I hate covering these cases so much. This is worst nightmare. And to think, by the way, you know, we just talked about on Crime Weekly News

this week, like the people in your life and trying to, you know, the people that are closest to you, like you're trying to mitigate the risks, your family members, you can trust them, your inner circle. But like anybody outside of that, you got to be really wary of. And here we are the same week talking about a wife who it's just so, it's so hard for like the human brain to comprehend, right? Like any, any, I don't want to use the word normal person, but I'll say it normal person that you're ordering Miralax or looking up Miralax, you're looking up your takeout food, you're ordering a Power Bowl. Like how does it change so fast? Like one second that's happening. And within a matter of minutes,

you're killing your kids, you're strangling your kids. And it's so personal, right? Like it's horrible. And then for him, for Patrick to come downstairs and be the one to find that, he's basically ruined for life. That's it.

Ruined for life. He's lost everything in one split second. He's dead at that point at that point yep one split second he's lost every single one of his children and his wife yep fuck his wife and the entire the entire um life that he he thought he had when he left to go pick up food and and here's and i think so i think what you're saying is valid oh my god when you put it that way like the what ifs like if he doesn't go get the food, if he says, no, I don't want anything takeout or I say, or he says order in like the what ifs that must be going through his brain right now. I mean, it's.

Yeah. And I mean, what you're saying is valid, right? You're angry at Lindsay for what she did. Yeah. And, and, and this is, this is valid. And what, what her lawyer is going to say. And, and this is, this is valid. And what, what her lawyer is going to say is no, she wasn't in her right mind.

But what the, what the prosecution is going to argue is very similar because you have a cop brain is very similar to what you said. They're going to say there was clear premeditation here. She set him up to leave the house. This wasn't something she did in a moment of temporary insanity. She was very calculated in what she did to get him out of the house to make sure she had enough time and alone time to do this. So this is where the defense is going to really struggle to have a solid argument

because how do you go from, like you said, one minute, and she calculated on Apple Maps how long it would take for him to drive to the restaurant and back. So she knew how much time she would have. This is not something that somebody who's in a state of postpartum psychosis does because they are not in their right minds. They're having hallucinations, they're having delusions, things like that. And we're going to get into next episode, we're going to get into what Lindsay claimed happened and things like that. But the prosecution is going to have a strong argument, in my opinion just have to prove that there was premeditation and intent here. And I think that they might have a good chance of doing that. You think?

Yeah. I mean, listen, the public opinion is very split on this. I want you to know. Really? Yes. They're split on, oh, please, let's get to get into that. Well, first of all, I had a quick question. You may have said it. I may have missed it when I was knowing where the story was going. Did you say the age of the children?

I think you said their names were Callan dawson and cora, right? Do you know what are they? Did you say their ages? Yeah, so callan was the youngest uh seven months Oh my god, seven months. Yeah And cora the oldest she was five and Dawson was three I believe oh my god babies absolute babies so okay so before you I asked you a question before going there I'm writing down the time stamps as you're saying um when you were talking about the search history and I knew it obviously I know the outcome of this story

is not good from the teaser, but when you said that she looked up, obviously she had no intent on going to go get the food. So that would make no sense for her to look up how long it takes to get there. That's why I was like, oh, here we go. And to me, I wrote on my notes here, planning it. So like plotting it out,

like finding a place that's far enough away that would allow her to do what she wanted to do. And I know we're going to get into the weeds on this, but it sounds like almost immediately after he left, she started doing what she was doing. And it just so happened that when he called at 533, I believe you said she called back at 534. From CVS. Yes. She called back a minute later. Can I tell you my thought on that real quick? I know what it is. I know what your thought is. Hit me with it. He said the conversation was completely normal, but it seemed like she was in the middle of

something. And the fact is, and the prosecution is going to say this as well, she had a completely normal conversation with him. She wasn't having delusions. She wasn't off out of her mind. She wasn't climbing the walls. She appeared to be calm and normal. It seemed like she was in the middle of something. What she was in the middle of was killing their children. Yeah. And we'll never know. I mean, obviously, but my thought was, I think the children were already dead at that point. And I think she needed more time to, she was going to kill herself, obviously, but my thought was, I think the children were already dead at that point. And I think she, she needed more time to, she was going to kill herself. Obviously she, she tried to do that to a certain degree, right? It seems she didn't accomplish it, but you know, she tried. My thought is like, she had them out. It took longer than expected to do

what she wanted to do. And then she wanted to send him on one more errand because she planned on killing herself before he got back and she needed the time to do that. So it's possible that when she finally calls back, it's quiet in the house. She doesn't, he doesn't hear anything. So she's not downstairs. I would think,

I would think, and you never know. I don't even, I don't even want to talk about it. We don't need to talk about it. I won't do it. I'm good on it. The details of

what may have transpired in those moments to get them to cooperate, et cetera. Oh, I know. I thought about that. I thought about that the other day. They're all in the basement together. Like it reminded me of a Chris Watts situation. Remember when he made one of his daughters watch while he smothered the other daughter? And then she said, please don't do to me what you did to Cece. And that's exactly what I'm thinking. Yeah, I don't have the bandwidth for it. I'm good.

I'm too close to the holidays. You guys come to your own conclusions on that one. It doesn't matter for the sake of the story. But my point being, I feel like she was in between what she had done to the children and what she was now doing to herself. She was going the coward's way out, which by the way, even more so to me, suggest some level of capacity to understand what she just did and now taking her own life.

I'm not saying I would justify it either way, but if he came home and she was like, listen, had to do it. There were, they were going to kill me. They were, they were demons.

They weren't our kids. I was hearing voices. They were ordering me to do this. I did this for us. I did it. Trust me. They were ordering me to do this. I did this for us. Trust me, I didn't want to do this. I had to save them. Immediately after doing it, she's like, yeah, I shouldn't have done that. And now I'm going to kill myself because I'm a coward and I have to take myself out now.

So now that I've said all that, please tell me, and I'm open to it. We still have a lot of the story to go. You're telling me it's split on this? I'd love to hear why. Yes, the public opinion is split on it. Because like I said, a lot of women have gone through these changes after pregnancy and childbirth. They know how impactful it can be on your mental health.

And so I think there's a lot of sympathy for a woman when she says, I had postpartum depression or I had postpartum psychosis, because a lot of people, a lot of women can relate to that, right? And what I, and listen, I'm not saying she did or she didn't. That's going to be for a jury to decide. I couldn't say. But I will, once again, will say that the prosecution does, in my opinion, put up a good argument of why they believe that she didn't,

including the fact that she had gone to see doctors and mental health professionals who said she did not have postpartum depression, that she is not having symptoms of postpartum depression, that she had generalized anxiety disorder, things like that. We're gonna get more into it, but I do think that there was a level of premeditation there. And we're

going to hear from experts during the trial, experts on postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis, and experts on filicide who are going to argue in her favor and say, yes, maybe she could have done this with premeditation and still been suffering from this condition. It's such a slippery slope and it's so subjective. It's going to be hard to prove one way or the other whether or not she did this because of what was going on with her body and her mind or whether she had some other motive. I don't know. So at the risk of getting myself in trouble here, because listen, we're always going to be honest. And I am the first to admit, I just said it 20 minutes ago. I don't know anybody who's experienced this and I have obviously never personally experienced it, but it goes back to my whole thought process.

And we talked about it a few episodes ago when it comes to someone who's going through something. Again, it's easy for me to say I've never been through it, but I personally just don't understand if you're in that state of mind and you're that depressed or you're that off as controversial as it may be to say this, jump out the window, do what you got to do. Make sure it's high enough. Do what you got to do. I don't want that for you. It kills me that you're in that position that you feel that's the only way out. And I got shit for this the last time I said it, even though I qualified it by saying, I would love to see any person in that position, seek the help they need, get on whatever medication they need, whatever they have to do, get surrounded by people, do whatever you can,

because there's always a better solution than hurting yourself or people around you. I qualified it. I said it. I don't want anyone to be in that position. However, if you've exhausted all opportunity, all resources, and you just, you're at the end where you're like, there is nothing that's going to help me. Nothing has worked. I'm over this. Why are you taking other people out with you? Especially children. That's the part I don't get. And why not? Hey, if you're going to do it, why aren't you taking out Patrick

too? Why just the children? Like, I'm just asking the honest questions here I don't get that part of it that's what I don't well maybe maybe like that filicide expert Philip Resnick said it was an altruistic thing like she wanted to kill herself and she didn't want to leave her children without a mother in the world I don't I don't know like I don't I don't understand it and what I will say is she did go to doctors. She did go to mental health professionals. She was on medication and she did seek help. Yeah, she did seek help. Um, the, the point is, and you know, she was on a lot of medications and her lawyer is going to say like, oh, she was over medicated and these doctors don't know how to treat postpartum issues. And, you know, some of these medications she was on would cause suicidal and homicidal ideations.

Like a mix between them? But then there's, once again, the prosecution's going to come in with an argument and be like, listen, we tested her blood. She was taking her medications as prescribed. She wasn't taking them all at once. And she, and she was, seemed to be doing fine. Everyone around her was like, well, she did have some issues like earlier as she had written on Facebook, like she had struggled with some postpartum issues, but six weeks after Callen was born, she said, oh, I'm doing much better. I'm on medication and I'm doing, you know, my diet and nutrition and fitness and it's made a world of difference. So it seemed that she was

getting better. And you're right. Like if you feel like you've done everything and you're still, you know, you can't snap out of it, then maybe go in and get yourself committed for an extended period of time. And so that you can't hurt yourself or others, or if you really have to, yeah, then take your own life life i don't want anybody to do that 100 why we can't we it sucks that we even have to say that we're not condoning suicide i i it's so stupid that i have to say that but yeah i just i don't understand why would you kill your own children and three five three years old five years old seven months old it's just i i can't even imagine causing harm and like i said, I had a hard time

with Bella, man. And there was times where I had to walk out and let her scream in her crib because I felt like, ugh, you know, I can't do this anymore. Like I'm going crazy. There was times, but I had no help at home basically. And it was just me. And I had to walk out. You make, you can make the decision to walk out. I could never, I never looked at my child and thought, I want to kill this baby. Yeah, and if you have, that's, and this is where I'm going with this, right?

Like if you're having those thoughts, which I'm not even villainizing those thoughts because I acknowledge- Because you can't control them either, yeah. Exactly, exactly. If there's a chemical imbalance, if there's something going on, your brain is the most powerful tool you have. And if it works against you, you're in trouble. I get it. I've seen people with mental I know it. I understand you can't control those thoughts. And you might be saying, well, Derek, those same thoughts are the ones that caused her to kill her children. I hear you, but I would, I would counter that by

saying the minute I had those thoughts and I'm thinking I'm going to kill them. And then myself, I'm going to skip the first part and I'm just going to, I'm going to, I'm going to save them by taking myself out. And again, I know that it's going to go back and forth, the chicken or the egg, right? Like, well, you can't control that. I get it. Maybe I'm coming from a place of ignorance because I've never personally experienced it. I just don't get it. I talk about this with the mass shooters and all these different things where they kill themselves immediately after.

I feel like somewhere inside, you're still there. And clearly in this case, in my opinion, she knew what she did was wrong because immediately after she killed herself. Now, some may argue she did. Or tried to, yes. She wanted to be with them. Yeah, she tried to kill herself. Thank you. But I felt like the premeditation before the plotting of this, and then obviously the plan to kill herself after, before being caught herself, indicates to me that there was something inside there where she felt or knew this was wrong. This wasn't the right thing to do. And yeah, I mean, doesn't take, doesn't bring them back. And I know I get frustrated over it. And this is the big conundrum you have as an investigator too, right? Like now there's

police officers and detectives that have to go into this crime scene and work this case. And you may say like, oh, well, it's not their kids. Trust me. There's a lot of guys and gals that are there that are mothers and fathers or nieces and uncles. And it's terrible. I remember before I even had kids work in a child molestation case and we had to go through diapers. You told me about this case. It was the daycare, right? It was at a daycare. We went back and pulled out these massive commercial dumpsters because all the diapers were labeled with the child's name and the date that they were changed by the caretaker. And we were looking for specific diapers from the victim that were changed by this particular

person. And we had to find blood in one of them right and i remember this is pretty bad me and my friends other detectives crying but also throwing up just from going through it and then and finding what we wanted to find for the case and realizing the pain that this little girl went through we were throwing up in the like there was this grate there we were just taking turns vomiting as we were going through the trash bags. It's obviously way worse for the family, but also I feel bad for these investigators that now are tasked with being objective and unbiased and understanding that there's a case here now and looking at these kids as pieces of evidence.

To compartmentalize that, I can I can promise you some of the hardest things you're ever going to have to do so I read um one of the first responders his wife spoke to the one of the papers and she was like it's been months and he still is the same like he can't unsee it he can't forget it he's up at night yeah it I mean, there's definitely stories I haven't told you about accidents, vehicle accidents specifically where they stay with you forever. They really do because we'll just leave it at that. There's just things that you see that even though you see them and you know, they're real, even in that you can smell it, you can see it, all these things, but you're like,

nah, there's gotta be like a movie prop. There's no way that could happen like that. Like, I didn't even know that could happen. And you're now tasked with, okay, everyone step back. I need to process this now because the driver survived. Yeah. This is the ripple effect of we, we often talk about with these cases that it's not just the, the victims and the person who committed the crime who are affected. We've got Patrick, right? Like you said, his life's never going to bounce.

It's over. Neighbors, friends, family members, the first responders, the police officers and the attorneys who have to look through this evidence and prosecute this case and build a case, all of these people will never forget this because this is all part of them. Not a great part, right? They will never forget it because there's children involved. And going through this case brought me back to Chris Watts, that Cece and Bella are always going to be like in me. And I still get very emotional about them often when I allow them to like pop into my head again, or they pop in without my consent as they have when I'm covering this case. It's just so, so traumatic to try to wrap your head around it and to try to understand where

someone like Lindsay was coming from on this. And yes, there is legitimate postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis. Once again, her lawyer is going to have to- Yeah, we'll leave that up to him. He can defend that. Yeah. So let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. So the children and Lindsay were all rushed to the hospital where five-year-old Cora and three-year-old Dawson were pronounced dead. Seven-month-old Callan held on for three days before passing away at Boston's Children's Hospital. Lindsay, who had jumped from the second-story bedroom window, had several broken bones in her back and ribcage, and according to her lawyer, she was paralyzed from the waist down,

although the prosecution will have something to say about that as well. Lindsay would remain at South Shore Hospital under police guard. On January 25th, an arrest warrant was issued for Lindsay Clancy for two counts of homicide and three counts of strangulation and battery with a deadly weapon. This would be upgraded to three counts of homicide when little Callen died. A GoFundMe page was created the following day with the intention of supporting Patrick Clancy as he attempted to navigate through this unimaginable tragedy. The money raised would go towards helping Patrick pay for medical bills, funeral services,

and legal help. Even the later Lindsay's lawyer would say not a dime from that GoFundMe has gone towards her legal counsel. Her parents were paying for it. So I guess it kind of got controversial at points because people were like, we don't want to give money to this GoFundMe if it's going to go towards helping Lindsay get off. I think that's a fair question, right? Where is it going? Yeah. Yes. And the last time I checked, it had raised over a million dollars, but they're not taking donations any longer. I'm sure Patrick didn't even set that up. Do you know who set it up? It looked like a friend, but on January 28th, Patrick himself talked about his children and how much he loved them

On that gofundme page. Okay, so he was aware of it. He obviously endorsed it got it patrick said quote A lot of people have said they can't imagine and they're right. There's absolutely nothing that can prepare you The shock and pain is excruciating and relentless I'm constantly reminded of them and with the little sleep I get, I dream about them on repeat. Any parent knows it's impossible to understand how much you will love your kids until you have them. The same goes for understanding the devastation of losing them. Cora, Dawson, and Callan were the essence of my life, and I'm completely lost without them. My family was the best thing that ever happened to me. I took so much pride in being Lindsay's

husband and a dad to Cora, Dawson, and Callan. I always reminded myself that each day with them was a new gift. Callan usually woke up first and would rest his head on my shoulder for a few minutes as he adjusted to the morning. Dawson typically sang or spoke his thoughts out loud for a while before we'd go get him. Cora was a big girl and would simply walk downstairs. I could still vividly picture her coming into the living room each morning with her hair in a mess, smile on her face. We always started our days together reading books, cuddling up on the couch, and playing with magnet tiles. I loved taking them places, whether it was scooting at Chandler Elementary, vacation skiing, out on the boat, or to Duxbury Beach, one of our favorite places on earth.

They gave me purpose and I never took it for granted. There is now a massive void where that purpose once was. Cora had an infectious laugh and was stunningly beautiful. She was the cautious one, but it was really because she was so caring. She used to say she wanted to be a doctor and a mama when she grew up, and she would practice by giving Callan checkups. If she was leaving the house to go somewhere, she would pick someone to take care of Carolyn and Charlotte, her baby dolls. She had all the doll accessories available, so her sitters were well-equipped. Before she turned two, she was already wrapping them in perfect swaddles. We would tell her, she's such a good little mama.

She loved all babies, both real and pretend. She loved sloths, unicorns, tea parties, going to lunch with Nana and Grandpa, and giving presents to people. She knew everything about princesses, her favorite being Sophia the First. She truly loved her brothers and us, and said it often in her sweet voice. We did a lot of father-daughter activities together like skiing and visiting San Francisco or just talking. I loved her, my firstborn, so much. Dawson had beautiful, bold brown eyes that beamed with friendship. He was naturally humorous and generous, beyond the norm of a typical toddler, always willing to share his toys with others. For all the love he received, he always gave back more. His best quality was his pure kindness. He loved trucks, tractors,

dinosaurs, paw patrol, worker guys, and being outside. He was adventurous and mischievous and enjoyed causing trouble, which he typically found hilarious. He was also remarkably smart. We always said if we didn't save enough for retirement, it'll be okay. We'll just live in Dawson's guest house. He would hug me tighter than most adults, and every night he told me inconsistent words at bedtime without fail. Good night, Dada. I love you. We had a special bond from day one. He was my buddy, my first boy, and truly a gift. Callan was our easygoing child. I always said it was because he was the third child. He had to adapt, and he did easily. He was born with hardly any fuss and was by far our best sleeper. He was just an incredibly happy and vibrant baby, constantly smiling.

Our nickname for him was Happy Callen. He was sitting on his own and you could tell he was enjoying his growing independence as he would grab any object within reach. Sometimes he joined my Microsoft calls in the background, playing in his jumpy. I would keep my camera on, too proud to leave it off. He started saying da-da whenever I walked in the room. The last moment we had together was our routine. I would come up from my office at the end of the day and swing him between my legs while he laughed and smiled. If I was ever having a bad day, Callan always knew how to heal me. Perhaps that's

why he held on a little longer, to spare me whatever pain he could. As excruciating as it was, I was fortunate and grateful to feel his warmth until his very last moment. Faith is my only hope of believing he felt mine. Callan died with enormous courage despite being so little. Maybe it was his way of demonstrating what I need to do to press forward. I'll always draw inspiration from him. He'll always be my little hero. End quote. And then Patrick talked about Lindsay.

He said he forgave her and he would like if everyone else would do the same. He said, quote, I want to share some thoughts about Lindsay. She's recently been portrayed largely by people who have never met her and never knew who the real Lindsay was. Our marriage was wonderful and diametrically grew stronger as her condition rapidly worsened. I took as much pride in being her husband as I did in being a father and felt persistently lucky to have her in my life. I still remember the very moment I first laid eyes on her and can recall how overcome I was with the kind of love at first sight you only see in movies. It really didn't take long before I was certain I wanted to marry her. We said I love you to each other multiple

times a day as if it was a reflex. We habitually started every morning with a passionate hug, yielding a sigh of relief like we had each received the perfect medicine. If too much time passed without a hug, she'd look at me and ask, did you forget? We mutually understood the reality that people can have bad days, but we stuck to the rule that when one of us got lost, the other was always there to bring them home. She loved being a nurse, but nothing matched her intense love for our kids and dedication to being a mother. It was all she ever wanted. Her passion taught me to be a better father. I want to ask all of you that you find it deep within yourselves to forgive Lindsay as I have. The real Lindsay was generously loving and caring towards everyone, me, our kids, family, friends, and her patients. The very fibers of her soul are loving. All I wish for her now is that

she can somehow find peace, end quote. Can I go first here? Yeah. Obviously, hearing a lot of what we heard about the children, again, brings it back to your own children. It's the only way you can, like some of the things he was saying they were into and what they did. Can't help but think about your own children and the similarities, right? And by the way, I don't know how long after this happened did he write this whole thing? This was January 28th. So the day after Callan died and a few days, I'd say four or five days after it happened. So we're talking, yeah, we're talking about a week total. He's writing this.

Less than a week. Yeah. Better, stronger man than me. I'll just say that. Better, stronger man than me. Dude, I was thinking the same thing. I was like, I'd be sitting there just pouring tears. I wouldn't even be able to see the computer screen.

I'd be crying so much. I'd be in a back room as strong as I think I am. That's my weak point, my kids. So I would be done. And also just, you lost your partner, right? So yeah, I hear this stuff about the children and it just like, it brings back everything that we were just talking about earlier

as far as these innocent lives that were taken for no reason whatsoever. But now I'm going to be the bad guy here. I'm going to be the bad guy. And I know that he's asking us to forgive Lindsay. I'm going to pass on that for me personally. I'm going to pass on that. I didn't know her.

That's a no from me, dog. I'm going to pass on that. He's entitled to do, again, better man than me, I guess. And I'm sure there's a lot for me dog i'm gonna i'm gonna pass on that he's entitled to do again better man than me i guess and i'm sure there's a lot of people in the comments that are saying who cares what you think or whatever like that's on you that's fine we all got to stand on our own yeah it's your opinion it's your opinion yeah i'm gonna pass i'm gonna pass on that and for a lot of the reasons i just said in the earlier conversation that we were having. So I won't just be redundant here and repeat my rationale behind it. Your wife was someone at one point, but she was no longer that person when she did what she did. They're two different for me.

They're two different people. There's Lindsay before and there's Lindsay after, and you can love the Lindsay before and understand that she's no longer that person after. She can't go back to being that person. So now she went from being the love of my life and my partner that I had hoped to be with forever to my number one enemy, honestly, my arch nemesis. Right. Yeah. I get that. That's it. That's it. And there is no forgiveness. I would never forgive her for what she did, regardless of what she was going through. There is no, in my opinion, no justification for it. There is everything that he said about her can be true and have me still feel the same way. I can acknowledge that the issues she was going through were real and that the things she

was experiencing were actually happening, but also understand that there's some consciousness to do this. She wasn't taken over by an outer being where she had no control over her physical movements. Even though those thoughts are running through her head, it's still her hands that are carrying out the act. So for me, Patrick, I respect the hell out of you for getting on there and being to explain yourself the way you did in the manner in which you did and for having the compassion to forgive someone so quickly who has just taken your three children. Like I said, better man than me. As far as I'm concerned.. Like I said, better man than me. As far as I'm concerned. Yeah.

Yeah. You better man than me. And maybe that just, that just shows how bad I am, but I don't know how people feel out there. Please weigh down, come, you know, do you agree with me? Do you disagree with me? But that's where I stand on it. I don't, I don't know how you feel about the whole thing. Maybe it's different as a woman who has experienced something like this. Am I way off here? So I don't, I know. I mean, I think we're very similar in that. And I get shit for this all the time on my own channel because I'm always like,

and I said the same thing when Chris Watts' mother said, oh, I forgive him for what he did. I'm like, it's not for you to forgive him. Perfect example, by the way. Yeah, I said, bitch, it's not for you. It's not for you to forgive him. He didn't do anything to you, okay? It's for Cece, Bella, Nico, and Shanann, wherever they are, if they want to give him that forgiveness, shut your mouth. 100%. Yeah, it's right. Great point,

by the way, where Chris Watts, do we can, Chris Watts may have been going through some things at the time. Hold on. Exactly. Hold on. That's what I was just about to say. That's what I was just about to say. But first of all, so when I say things like that, like for me, there's things you forgive and there's things you don't forgive. There's a line you cross where you're unforgivable and you're cut. You're cut out of my life. Okay. You cross the boundary, you're done. And I told my husband, because I was talking to him about this case, I said, I'm sorry. Like, I don't care if you were out of your mind. I would understand, but I would never, ever, ever forgive you ever. And he said, I feel the same way. Right. So we're on the same page.

Yeah. And then there's going to be people in the comments who say, well, forgiveness isn't for the person who did something to you. It's for yourself so that you can move on, whatever, et cetera, et cetera. And that's fine. Like that's your belief. And I'm glad you feel that that's your belief. Shout out to Patrick. I'm glad you feel that way. I'm glad you all feel that way. I don't personally feel that way. There's things I forgive and there's things I don't forgive.

Killing my three children, whoever you are, whatever you were going through is something I will never forgive you for. I don't care who you are, what you were going through. I do not care. I can move on. I can understand. I will never forgive you.

So Chris Watts, let's look at Chris Watts. Chris Watts killed his two daughters. He killed his pregnant wife. He killed his unborn child. Now, unfortunately, Chris Watts doesn't have a uterus and he doesn't give birth to children. So he could not go into his legal defense and say, I have postpartum depression or I have postpartum psychosis, whatever. What was Chris Watts going through? Was Chris Watts going through something mentally? Did he have a moment of temporary insanity? I mean, maybe. Possible.

But no one really, I mean, there are people out there who are on his side, right? But not in the same, yeah, not in the same kind of way where it's very much split down the middle. There's not like 50% of the people out there being like, well, Chris Watts could have had a quick mental break, you know, and they're going to point to the fact that, well, he had a girlfriend and he wanted to live his life with his girlfriend. So his motive was to remove the children and his wife from his life. And that's

why. Maybe that was his motive, but he could have easily gotten a divorce and had the same outcome. So there's something not right with anybody who kills another person, right? There's something that's wrong and broken inside of you if you can kill another human being. And triple, quadruple that if it's a child. And then times that by a thousand million if it's your own child. I would say that every single person who kills their own child has something deeply wrong with them, okay?

But we're still not like giving Chris Watts a pass on that. And there's gonna be people who don't, who aren't familiar with this case who are like, well, it sounds like she was legitimately going through something. True. But you also have to understand that we're gonna talk about this next time.

There were things that she did even before that day that suggested premeditation. Things she looked up, things she was writing about, things that were happening in the days, weeks, and months leading up to this that showed she was very much aware of what her mental state was and what was happening inside of her. So at the end of the day, it's going to be about what you believe where your morals and your values lie how much experience you have with this yeah your own personal we are going to yeah we are going to discuss thoroughly like the prosecution's current case and and how it doesn't necessarily look like lindsey just one day snapped had no idea what she did and then her three three kids were dead. And then she was like, oh, what happened? There's a little bit more to it than that, in my opinion. And

Patrick, we're not in his shoes. We haven't lost our three children and our wives and everything that we ever lived for in a split second without any expectation that it was going to happen. Him forgiving Lindsay may be what he needs to do right now to not go crazy and break everything around him and maybe even take his own life. This may be what he needs to do in this moment. And so I cannot judge him for that. I thought it was important to read what he said because I wanted everyone out there to hear about these three children. They had lives. They mattered. They had potential. They were babies, like you said. And we all should know who they were. And what struck me the most was, because I swear to God, when I started reading about what

he was saying about the kids, the first thing that came to my head was, even before I read what he said about Cora coming into the living room in the morning, the first thing that came to my head was my favorite part of the day is when Bella wakes up and she's got this crazy bad head and it's like all over the place. Yeah, better say something good about Bella. I could crash in her early in this episode. Bella, she's redeeming herself right now. Yo, everyone knows that Bella's my angel. I love that kid. No, I'm joking, obviously, but. She wakes up, her hair's all over, she's all rosy-cheeked and she has a big smile on. And it's like the best thing that

ever happened to her was waking up that day. And she's just so full of joy and happiness. And she's singing in the morning and trying to pour her own cereal and it's going all over. But I can't even be mad because she's pouring her own cereal and she's getting the stool and she's getting it herself. And it's just so freaking cute. And to think that somebody would take that away from me once again, I could never forgive you ever, but I needed everybody to hear who these kids were, how much they meant to Patrick, how much they meant to the people around them. They didn't deserve this. So if you are feeling sympathetic for Lindsay, that's fine. That's your, I feel sympathetic for Lindsay in a way as well. I can't, I'm straddling the fence here. I can't really

go to one side or the other very deeply or intensely at this point. But you need to also remember these kids and don't save all your sympathy for Lindsay. You have to really consider that these kids lost their lives, their entire lives ahead of them. And not only that, at the hands of their mother. So imagine their fear, their pain, their hurt, their confusion. And we're going to take a quick break. But when I come back, I do also want to touch on another aspect of the killings themselves and how the prosecution and the state's attorney, they will discuss how this contributes to the premeditation. So let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right. So we're back. And I'm going to get deeper into this later when

we do talk about the state's attorney's case. But the state's attorney is going to explain. This isn't a short process, strangling somebody to death with exercise bands, much less three people. First, you have to make the person, the child in this situation, unconscious. And that's going to take a little while. And then for a further several minutes after that, you have to continue to hold the pressure on their necks, cutting off the blood flow and the oxygen to their brains before they're gone. So, and she did this three times. So this is not something that is in an instant.

You know, she didn't get a gun, go crazy, boom, boom, boom, they're done. This took time. This took effort. And I mean, I just don't, I don't understand how, I don't understand how you could do it. I don't understand how you could do it to one of your children and then do it to the other two, do it over and over again. I don't understand.

And maybe she wasn't even planning to even take her own life until she went through that process three times. Because I feel like that would make anybody, if you weren't crazy before, you certainly are after, right? If you have to do that, like you're not going to be the same person as you were before you committed these three murders to your three children. That's going to cause some lasting impact and lasting damage. I just cannot, I can't fathom it. So yeah, that is going to speak a little bit to their premeditation case as well. And, and, you know, the fact that you said that as far as what she did, what, what amount of time it would take and the attention that would take in order to do it, not once, not twice, but three times for me personally, I can't separate the two where it's like, oh,

before she did this, she was this person. And then the same person that you're seeing in these photos and these pictures on video after the fact is the same person. They obviously some things have happened over the years. I'm not discrediting anything she went through or where she was currently mentally, but it's the same person. It's the same person that did it. So I no longer can look at that person the same way. And just to kind of

bring it home for me, because I've already said what I said and I stand by it, you know, with, I wouldn't even have said what I said as far as my not forgiving Lindsay, but Patrick kind of opened that door. And by the way, I'd be the first, if he was still taking money in for the GoFundMe to be promoted on this page, we would promote it tomorrow. I am 100% supportive of him and whatever he needs. And I'm also supportive of this letter if that's what he needs for him to move forward in life in any way he has to do. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what we think. It only matters what he thinks. The only reason I addressed it is because in that letter, he's asking us, the public, to forgive Lindsay.

And we have that right to choose not to. And because of our own opinions, our own beliefs. It's not our jobs to forgive her. She didn't do anything to us, right? That's right. But him asking, hey, don't look at her that way. Give her a pass, essentially. You ended the letter with that. And her give her some give her a pass essentially you know you

ended the letter with that and so you're going to get a response and that's why a lot of people he had to clarify with the gofundme like hey it's not for her because i would say based on that letter it wouldn't shock me if you did find out that some of it was going towards her legal counsel the gofundme said the goundMe said it was for medical expenses, funeral expenses, and legal expenses. And they were saying like, after this, Patrick's not going to be able to go right back to work, right, understandably so.

If it's for him, no doubt. But they did say legal defense. They did say legal expenses. And then Lindsay's lawyer, Lindsay's lawyer had to come out and clarify later, no, I haven't received a dime from this GoFundMe. So I think that that was probably once people started pushing back and being like, is this going to Lindsay's legal defense? Because we don't want to donate then. At that point, then whoever started the GoFundMe and even probably Lindsay and her lawyer were like, okay, this is a bad look. We shouldn't take any of that money for her legal defense. But I think initially it was the plan, dude, I will say. Yeah, I think it's a smart move. And again, I'm flabbergasted. I'm really shocked because it seems like, I don't know, Patrick from a hole in the wall, it seems like he is the type of person where he has found a way to look at Lindsay and still see the person he loved and

separate the two. And again, I'm not saying it to be sarcastic or facetious here. That's incredible that he can do that. I think that's a very small portion of people in this world that can look at the person who just killed their children and say, you know what? I forgive you. I forgive you. I know you weren't in the right state of mind when you did that. And I can separate the two and still see the person that I once loved and know that somewhere inside of you, you're still there. I mean, listen, and I'm not, I'm not villainizing anybody in this situation. Like I said, I'm a hundred percent supportive of him, but I do think, uh, my personal opinion,

I, again, I'm not as good of a person as, as Patrick is. Um, yeah, I, I, I don't know. It's. I get it. And I know it's easy for me to say I haven't gone through it. I think, man, he really loved her. And that's why it's hard. I think that we tell each other we love each other every day. We hug each other multiple times a day. I think he still loves her. And then when he said the most I can hope for her now is that she can find some peace, you're not going to find any peace. She's certainly not going to find any peace. I don't care who you are.

You don't find peace after that happens in your life. You just don't. None of these people affiliated with this are going to find peace in regards to this situation. So was there ever a situation? Was there anything revealed? And I don't want to get too far ahead in the story, but was there information revealed where, I don't know, like somehow Patrick was contributing to helping her along this process? Is that maybe why in his mind

he was very active? Because he says it right here. He knew what she was going through. He knew the struggles. Again, this is a psychological question here, but could there be a sense of, I guess what I'm trying to get at, could there be a sense of guilt? That he had failed her? That he had failed her? Yeah. He had failed her, exactly. It's his job to take care of his family. It's his job to take care of his wife. His wife was going through something that he couldn't personally understand, but was hearing what she said, was seeing her struggle. He started working remotely. They always made sure somebody was with her. They didn't usually like it was like his mother would come or her mother would come. He was there. They wouldn't. They wouldn't come out of nowhere alone with the kids. Yeah. So, yes, he probably felt like,

shit, I shouldn't have gone out for that food. Like I should have understood what was happening. But at the same time, he said this was her best day. Right. And so on the other times where they were concerned about her, she was outwardly acting depressed or stressed out or anxious, verbalizing her feelings. So they were like, OK, we're worried. We need to keep a little bit better eye today. That day she was acting completely normal. Everything was fine. He said it was one of her best days she'd had in a while. So I'm sure he's not listening to this because I wouldn't, but if you are, Patrick, this is not your fault. You wanted her to be okay. You thought she was getting better. She seemed to be doing great that day. And you hoped that you could leave for a half an hour and come back and everything

would be normal and your family would be there whole and intact. You had no idea that this would happen. So on January 27th, the same day that seven-month-old Callan was pronounced dead, Lindsay, who was intubated, she kind of like came to and she woke up. And the first thing she did was she used a whiteboard because she was intubated and she couldn't talk to ask a question. And this question was, do I need an attorney? And once again, the prosecution is going to use this and they're going to be like, she woke up and knew she needed an attorney. You know, like there was obviously some form of understanding of what she had done. This was the first question she asked. Now, Lindsay appeared for her February 7th arraignment via Zoom from a hospital bed where

she was still recovering from her injuries. And during this appearance, the prosecution, represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague, put forth their argument, and then Lindsay's attorney, Kevin Reddington, he put forth his. Now, Sprague, the prosecution, alleged that Lindsay had planned the murders of her three children, which was evidenced by her going to great lengths to get her husband out of the house, making sure he would be gone long enough for her to accomplish the task. Prosecutors also say Clancy had every opportunity to change her mind about going through with the murders, as they say it took time to strangle each child. Instead, they say she acted deliberately.

The children were killed by ligature strangulation. Ligature strangulation causes the victim to become unconscious anywhere from 10 seconds up to a minute. The more the victim struggles, the longer it takes. After the victim is unconscious, the ligature must be held in place with force, squeezing the neck for up to an additional four to five minutes to cause death. Therefore, she had to strangle each of them to unconsciousness and then make sure the bands were squeezing their little necks for several minutes. She could have changed her mind at any point during that time and removed those bands from their necks, and she did not. The defendant did not take advantage of the situation when her husband left the home that

night. She created the situation. And she used Apple Maps to make sure she would have enough time to strangle each child before her husband returned from where she had sent him. The defendant is a danger to herself and others. She planned these murders, gave herself the time and privacy needed to commit the murders, and then, but it's one of those situations where now we have multiple instances where she was in control or at least conscious before and after the incident of, of things that you wouldn't expect someone who's completely out of their mind to the point where

they're going to kill their kids to, to be thinking like this. Like, oh, you know what? I have to play. By the way, real quick, you're that crazy. Why do you even need him to leave the house with Apple Maps? Go down to the basement. You don't even care about your surroundings. Just do it. It's going to take a total based on that math that we just talked about there, 15 minutes. He's upstairs or he's downstairs working. I can't remember where he was, but he's somewhere in the house. He was in the basement. He's in the basement working. And that's where she ends up killing the kids. However, he's going to come up. He's going to come up at five o'clock, six o'clock. He's probably going to want to eat some food, take a shower. You're going to have time to do this if he's still in the house. You're absolutely right. You could go upstairs. Right. Exactly. So you wanted him out of the house. You wanted to have

time. You wanted to be alone. There's some premeditation there. No doubt about it. And then after that, I'm assuming this has been substantiated. It's been proven. You know, their first words are, do I need an attorney? Why would you even care at that point? Why would you even care if that's not where your mindset is? You're thinking about the legality of it. So I love the quote. You're thinking about getting away with it now. Yeah, I'm paraphrasing. I don't know exactly what we said. I was listening to the clip,

but this wasn't a situation that she took advantage of. She did not take advantage of the situation. She created it. Bingo, bingo, nailed it, moving on. But that's- I wrote that down too, yeah. Yep, so that's where I was at on that. Yeah, I think that Jennifer Sprague really broke that down pretty clearly.

This was not like her husband saying, oh, I've got to run out for a meeting. And then she's alone with the kids and she starts spiraling. She planned this. Yeah, alone for hours. She could have waited until he went to bed. Yeah, she could have waited until he went to bed that night. And then she could have strangled the kids in their sleep. You know what I mean?

It's not like the way that the way that her attorney is going to explain it is she just snapped and and but but you didn't because you you planned this for an hour. She was on the phone calling CVS, making sure they had what she needed, calling the restaurant, ordering the food, seeing how long it took. She sent him to Plymouth for the food right when they lived in Duxbury. So she could have sent him someplace closer for food, but she didn't. She was very methodical with it. And then, oh, and then, you know, she had jumped out the window, but they said she had cuts to her wrist and her throat. But then the prosecution's going to say these were not life-threatening cuts to her wrist and throat by the time. Yeah. I'll give the benefit of the doubt. I could see that being a situation where you

actually want to do it, but you just can't muster up the courage to do it. So you jump out the window. I can see that. I actually buy that. There's a lot more to talk about. I feel like I can talk about this particular part for 20 minutes. Let's take our last break and we'll be right back. So we are back. Jennifer Sprague, the ADA, she pointed to Lindsay asking if she needed an attorney. And Sprague said, quote, she knew she had murdered her children and she had the clarity, focus and mental acumen to focus on protecting her own rights and interests. End quote. Kevin Reddington, Lindsay's attorney, he had a completely different take. He claimed that his client was suffering from mental health issues linked to postpartum depression, and she had been overmedicated

on several psychiatric drugs, which could have caused suicidal or homicidal ideation. Clancy's defense argued she is a woman with mental health struggles, on top of newly sustained physical trauma. So you have a paraplegic who can't walk, who is definitely a danger to herself, and the government wants to put her in where? Crammingham State Prison? Plymouth House of Correction? There's no way that any humane person would do that, especially within the structure of our criminal justice system,

where a person is presumed innocent. And I'm not suggesting the facts that the government has read, but she has a good defense. She's got a darn good defense for this case, because that's what happened. Clancy's team said her suicide attempt caused major injuries, rendering her a paraplegic. To have this woman not held on bail, perhaps put a GPS on her, I guess, if someone's concerned that she's gonna miraculously recover, which isn't gonna happen. As your owner knows, being a paraplegic, paralyzed, she can't move, can't get off the bed, she can't walk,

she can't even go to the bathroom. She has to have 24-7 medical care. The defense also noted that Clancy is suicidal, saying her cries for mental health help were ignored. We all know that this woman is, as counsel concedes apparently, a danger to herself. I question whether she would ever make it to a trial. She's suicidal. She's extremely emotional. However, she's unable and has been unable to express any happiness or sadness or cry. And in fact, sometime about a month or two ago she made the comment, I just wish that I could feel something. Now our society fails miserably in treating women with postpartum depression or even postpartum

psychosis. It's Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid. Throw the pills at you and then see how it works. If it doesn't work, increase the dose or decrease the dose. Then end up trying another combination of medications. Now listen, Kevin Reddington is not some like public defender or some unknown lawyer. He's actually a big name in the New England legal community. And in 2002, he was named the best criminal defense attorney in the state by Boston Magazine. He's represented

multiple high-profile clients in seemingly tough-to-win cases. In 1989, he represented a Bridgewater woman named Therese Rogers, who murdered her boyfriend by stabbing him in the eyes while he was sleeping one night. Reddington was able to convince the jury that Rogers had been suffering from temporary insanity after being physically abused for years. In 1998, he was able to get Boston Red Sox player Mo Vaughn acquitted of drunk driving charges. And in 2012, Reddington represented Catherine Greek, the girlfriend of notorious mob boss Whitey Bulger. I would also put forward and say that I'm sure Kevin Reddington's services do not come cheap. So he said that Lindsay's suicidal. He's worried she might not even make it to a trial because she's so suicidal. And I would ask,

does a person who is so suicidal, they're so intent on taking their own life, wake up and ask for a lawyer and then pay a good deal of money for this lawyer. You know what I mean? Wouldn't she just be like, I don't care. Give me whatever lawyer you got. I'm going to kill myself anyways. I'm not going to make it to the trial. I'm not going to see a trial. Do we know how she got this money? It sounds like her parents are paying for him, according to Reddington, when he addressed the whole GoFundMe thing. And he was like, no, not a dime of that is coming from it. You know, it's like it seems her parents are paying for it and at great financial cost to them. But she still has to accept it. You know, she still has to be like, yeah, OK, let's get this lawyer. She's the one who woke up and asked for the lawyer.

And I just don't think a suicidal person who doesn't plan to make it to a trial would let their parents basically like go broke to pay for a lawyer for them to get them off of these charges. no this is what we're doing we're not asking your permission we're hiring this person we're doing it on your behalf we don't give a if you want us to or not you don't care we do we're trying to make sure you don't spend the rest of your life in prison we're going to do this for you no questions about it maybe she has a say right doesn't she have a say she could just refuse it i don't know i don't know i don't know the dynamic i mean you can't just make somebody be represented by a lawyer but she's not caring i'm saying if she's sitting there indifferent, where she's just not giving an answer either way, she's just like, I don't care. I don't have any feelings about it.

She woke up and said, do I need a lawyer? Yeah. No, listen, again, not the defender of Lindsay here, but I could see a situation where they're all in the room and she's saying, do I need an attorney? They're saying, yeah. And we're going to get this attorney for you. You're just going to be quiet. Let him handle it.

We got it from here. You just worry about getting better. And she might not give an answer either way. Like, just like, I just don't care. I do what you got to do. It's possible where she's just not like, she doesn't really care. So you do, hey, listen, you want to spend your money? I don't give a, I'm indifferent either way.

I'm just going to sit here and say whatever I say. I mean, listen, there's a lot, there's a, there is a question in here and this is where I bring it back to try to be in the middle where despite my feelings towards her, you do have to look at the situation, right? And the condition that she's currently in, as he said, she's paraplegic. She's really not a flight risk at this point. She ain't going anywhere. You can put a GPS on her. You can do all these things. And she has not been convicted of a crime yet. And bail is not supposed to be a form of punishment. It's to ensure that the accused shows up for court. Right. And I do think you're in a situation where if the family has money, her current physical condition, the parameters that could be put on her to ensure that she got the physical care she needed in order to make it to trial, right?

But also not have her in a prison cell. I'm impartial here. I can see an argument for that where it's like, listen, this is a situation where she could be in a different facility getting the care she needs both mentally and physically to ensure she's suitable and competent to stand trial. Yeah. He wanted her to remain in the hospital. Yeah. That's what I'm getting at. So I'm trying to say the honest truth here, but I will say him being as great as he is,

would it, would I put it past the defense attorney? Rightfully so to want this because of the narrative he's going to build a trial. For sure. I mean, that would be, that would be a smart thing to do. Yeah. Right. She's been in the hospital this entire time.

She's never really recovered from it mentally. She's on, she's being seen every day. She's not even capable of standing trial. There was a, she's not competent to sit standing trial she's there was a she's not competent to to sit here for this trial and be tried like anybody else would therefore i don't think that should be the case she needs to stay in the hospital and not be you know not go through this ordeal that's what i think maybe he's not trying to get her off here he's not trying he's not trying to get her off you mean he's not trying to get her out he's trying to get

her off yes like completely like cleared like you know like she's never gonna be she's gonna be in a hospital like that's what i mean by this he's trying to get it so temporary insanity she goes to a hospital she's gonna be there for a long time maybe one day she gets out because now she's quote-unquote recovered from this that's the best play here she doesn't unquote recovered from this. That's the best play here. She doesn't walk away from this scoffery. She's not going to be found not guilty. No, but there's going to be a trial. And so that's where we're just kind of about to, yeah.

So first of all, I will say in Kevin Reddington's favor, in his defense, I'm defending the defense attorney, which is not normal for me. I read a lot about him because he is very prolific. And it seems that he does take these cases. He's very concerned with like the criminal justice system. This isn't something he's just saying to be like for his client. He is concerned about the medical system and how they treat women who are suffering with postpartum issues. And many of his legal peers said of all the lawyers we know, of all the defense lawyers we know, Kevin Reddington legitimately cares about the clients he's representing. And he

legitimately cares about these cases. And he's not just doing it for money. And he's not just doing it for clout. He's doing it because he truly believes in what he's saying. So that is important. And I think that that genuine care and that genuine investment in Lindsay and her case is going to bode well for him during a trial. But I think that definitely it's likely Kevin Reddington will act as an extremely competent lawyer for Lindsay Clancy. And he told the Boston Globe that he's looking into whether he can raise a defense of diminished capacity. He's also said he may argue temporary insanity, things like that, but he definitely mentioned diminished capacity. And then he also said that he had retained Dr. Philip Resnick for a trial. Now, if that name sounds familiar, it's because I mentioned him while we were going over the filicide statistics at the top of this episode. Resnick is a nationally renowned expert on parents who kill their children. Now let's talk about diminished capacity really quick and what the defense will kind of have to show a jury to convince them of it.

Diminished capacity is a theory that a person, due to unique factors, could not meet the mental state required for a specific intent crime. A diminished capacity defense contends that the defendant is incapable of intending to cause death and therefore must have at most caused the death recklessly. This defense most often comes up in murder cases where the lawyers are trying to get a murder charge reduced to manslaughter. So as you said, there's no way that she's just going to get off and be declared innocent and she can walk free. She's going to see some time. But Reddington may also try to argue that Lindsay's not guilty by reason of mental insanity.

He hasn't really stated yet which defense he's going to go for. I think he might have a difficult time arguing diminished capacity, specifically because I fail to see how it's possible to wrap an exercise band around your child's neck for more than a couple of minutes and say that you didn't intend to cause their death. Yeah, I think that that's going to be a hard one. I can see a world where in the right situation without warning, that could happen, where maybe there was a temporary insanity for 10 to 15 minutes where this all occurred, where you just black out and you do what you do. What, what I have an issue with is the before that's my issue. Like the premeditation, the plotting, the planning that doesn't sound or look like a person who in a moment's notice loses it right just has it just literally snaps

and this happens because one of the kids were crying or not cooperating or something just pushed her over the edge and she loses herself for a period of 10 15 minutes and then comes to and kill and tries to kill herself i would have an easier time believing it. Where you lose me is the mapping out of the location, the getting the husband out of the house. And you had alluded to it. We're not going to get into it tonight. But there are things even prior to this that took place.

So we're focusing on the immediate time frame. I may even double down on what I'm saying in future episodes, but that what she did in that moment, I think you will. Yeah, I think you will. I can see a moment where under the right circumstances, you could snap and do something so horrific where you could be temporarily insane when you do it. And it'd be, I fall into that category. It's the plotting beforehand where you lose me.

Yeah, I agree. And I think, I think you will probably feel, and I think a lot of people, like there may be some people who leave this episode and say, oh yeah, we can see how this could be postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression or whatever. But when we talk more about what Lindsay Clancy did in the months leading up, what her mental health professionals said, everything. She was very clear-headed. So I think that some people may change their minds. So I will say that. Wait before giving your entire opinion, unless you know this case inside and out already, and then give it. But wait to give your entire opinion until you hear all the facts, and then let the chips fall. Is this a really popular case?

I don't know. I don't know what is a popular case and what is not. Sometimes I cover cases. Yeah, like I said, I've never heard of it. Sometimes I cover cases on YouTube and people are like, every YouTuber has covered this case. And I'm like, I would have no idea of that. I don't watch true crime YouTubers

specifically for the reason that a lot of standup comedians don't watch other standup comedians because they don't want to accidentally repeat their jokes and then get called out for it because the human brain absorbs things like a sponge. So I try not to watch other true crime content because I don't want to regurgitate it accidentally and copy somebody or rip somebody off. And so I have no idea what other YouTubers are covering. So I don't know if this is a popular or a well-known case at this point. Yeah. Well, to put a pin on that conversation

for me, I still feel the way I feel about the act, but I can see the rationale behind whether or not she should get bail or if she should remain in the hospital. I actually understand the argument and I don't necessarily disagree with it. So I was confused because during the hearing, it seemed to me like he was arguing for her to get bail. Like, why keep her locked up? I mean, put like a bracelet on her if you want, but she can't even walk anywhere. And then I was like, why are you arguing for her to get bail when you just said she needs 24-7 monitoring and she's like a danger to herself and she could kill herself? Yeah, she won't even make it to trial, his words.

Yeah. But then later in an article, I read that he had successfully argued for her to not get bail. So that was confusing to me, but whatever. Either way, she didn't get bail. Yeah, I saw that one coming. Yeah, the judge was like, let's just keep her in the hospital and cross that bridge when we come to it. So the prosecution is going to put up a strong argument

against Lindsay Clancy being so mentally disturbed that she was incapable of intending to cause the deaths of her three children. Kevin Reddington would state that Lindsay was suffering from some sort of postpartum condition, but the prosecution responded that Lindsay had been evaluated by mental health professionals before the deaths, and she'd been told she did not have postpartum depression or any symptoms of it. In fact, Lindsay had been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder. Next week, we're going to go over the timeline of Lindsay's mental health journey, as well as discuss the medications she was on, how she was taking them, and what her mental state was kind of leading up to the murders. Now, criminal defense attorney Duncan Levin, he's not associated with this case,

but you know, sometimes they give their opinions. He told Newsweek that Lindsay's defense is going to revolve around her mental state, saying, quote, We should expect to see a lot of expert psychological testimony. The question is not going to boil down to whether she did it, but whether Lindsay is not guilty by reason of legal insanity, end quote. But Levin also said there's definitely evidence of premeditation on Lindsay's part, from her making plans to get her husband Patrick out of the way, to her being calm and clear on the phone with him and others directly before the murders. Levin says that the burden is on the prosecution to show criminal responsibility, stating, quote, the state will

have to demonstrate that Clancy appreciated the wrongfulness of what she did. Even if she did suffer from mental illness, the state will have to show that she still knew that murdering her three children was wrong, end quote. And listen, I think the fact that she got her husband out of the house is a sign that she knew it was wrong to murder her children. Okay, like you don't want eyes on you. That's why she didn't do it when he was there, because there was a chance that even if she thought he was asleep or if he was in the shower, he could come and pop up anytime and stop her from completing this mission. And that's why she wanted him out of the house because she knew it was wrong because she knew that if he saw her

doing it, he would stop her and she didn't want to be stopped. That's just my opinion. And listen, this is personally going to be a tough one because I've had three children. Like I said, I know how hard it can be. But I will also say, as I've said several times, the prosecution has raised several points that, in my opinion, call Lindsay's defense into question, whether that defense is diminished capacity, postpartum psychosis, legal insanity, whatever. I think that the prosecution has put up points that may call that into question and we'll go into that in great detail next time. So for me, I think a few things on different sides of the aisle Can be true and still come to a conclusion that may not line up with the defense and for me

I can acknowledge that there's clearly Some form of mental illness there, whether it's long-term, you know, postpartum or this, whatever, whatever it might be, there's something there. Depression. Yeah. Depression, all these things. Patrick's acknowledged it. She was being seen for it. She was vocalizing that she wasn't feeling right.

She was on multiple medications. Clearly she realized something wasn't right and was trying to fix it as a family they were trying to fix it and is it possible that she was misdiagnosed or that she was given improper medication wouldn't be the first time we've heard that narrative before right so that's also possible you know that's right right yeah is it possible that she snapped in the moment and got really frustrated while he was gone to me no to me no and the reason i see yeah and and to me the reason i and that would be go toward more towards the psychosis right where something happened while he was gone to to allow that to occur and the reason i say that is for a couple things as As you just said, and the prosecution said, the mapping out how far the location was, the fact that mid doing this, she put him on another errand

to maybe give herself more time to be alone with the children, the capacity to call back Patrick in the middle of doing this, because for whatever reason, she didn't want him to know what was currently going on. If you're in the middle of killing people and you're going to kill yourself why the hell do you have to call someone back other than to keep them calm and not indicate to them that something's going wrong at the house and they need to get home immediately she made that call exactly so that he wouldn't come home and find her in the middle of the act. And she was able to mentally in that moment act and remain calm and composed to not expose what she had currently she did was wrong everything i just said as far as you know the husband being removed from the home intentionally letting you know keeping him calm while she's out and then most importantly after conducting the act attempting to take her own life

that to me in totality without knowing anything else is very suggestive that she was aware of what she was doing and knew that it was wrong Yeah, because he left the house at what like was it 5 15? I have the time stance right here. She started looking up things I know that you said it was around 5 5 15 because at 5 33 there was no answer when he called her And at 5 34 she called back She was Googling stuff or searching things around four. Yeah. So 515, 515, he left, he left around 515. He called, he talks to her on the phone at 534. So just about what, like 18 minutes later. Yeah. So, um, so I do think she was in the middle of killing the kids at that point, by the way. And at that point, you're completely calm.

You don't say, oh, shit, Patrick, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for what I did. I did something really bad. I'm so sorry. I love you. I want to tell you goodbye. I'm so sorry I did this. You know, you're calm.

You're trying to keep him calm. You're trying to make him feel like everything's normal. And then like, yes, I agree with you. I don't think this was a thing where she was just sitting there and all of a sudden started hearing voices and boom. This was something she planned. And if she was hearing voices before this, before she started the planning, and she's been aware of her own mental state and she's been tracking it, which we're going to find out she has, at no point do you say, oh my God, Patrick, I'm hearing voices telling me to kill the kids and I don't know what to do, but you need to keep me away from the kids or something. It's something. It's not like you

were alone in the house and you started hearing voices and there was nobody there to get in between you and your three children. So yeah, I'm struggling with it. It's going to be a struggle for me to completely find it in my heart 100% to say she's not responsible for this and she had no control. Has this trial concluded yet? No, it hasn't even started. right now where i'm thinking you want me to believe she had this temporarily psychotic this temporary psychotic break in that moment where she's going through the psychosis whatever it may be but she has the wherewithal to pick up her phone and go hello hey did you just call yeah i don't see the two it's this brand i want you to get yeah yeah they don't they don't compute for me they don't line up they don't do i don't i don't see i now if you were to tell me that it happened she carried right through it and never called him back, never picked up her phone, never done any of that. Maybe. Yeah. I think it's more believable if he's in the home and she just does it because in the moment she snaps, they're in the bathtub or something. I talked about Liliana Carrillo earlier. I believe, I don't remember everything, but that was a bathtub situation where in the moment she did what she did. So was Susan Smith. Wasn't Susan Smith a

bathtub situation too? I don't even know that case. I don't even know that case. That was back in the day. There's situations where children are in a vulnerable situation in the moment where they snap, something can happen spontaneously that I could see a form of psychosis, a psychotic break. And again, I'm not the expert. Maybe this is another case where we get Dr. Mohandian, you guys seem to like that before, where he can shed some light on this because I know he's had experience with these types of cases. He'll probably be limited because it's an active case and he could get, who knows, he could get called in to testify as an expert witness. But you guys know how I feel about this one. The kids always kind of take me off my, they kind of knock me off my trajectory a little bit because it's a soft spot for me. And I think a soft spot

for a lot of people. I'm not the only one. Yeah. It's harder for you to be like as objective, I think. Yeah. And plus I've been out of the game for a while. Like I'm doing cases still, but they're more civil cases. I'm not doing these types of cases as much anymore. And so it's like, I lost that, like that stone face, that, that mentality where it's like, Hey, these aren't human beings. They're just pieces of evidence. You know, I, I, I've definitely lost over the years, especially now that I'm a father, but I'm going to listen to the rest of this. As of right now, as you said, she's not going to trial yet. We have a whole trial to go through. I'm open to hearing the rest of it. I can't wait to

hear your comments. We were saying during one of the breaks, we know there's going to be a spirited, as you said, Stephanie, a spirited conversation going on in the comments. And I'm okay with that as long as we keep it respectful, because I don't expect everyone to agree with us or agree with me or agree with you. Just keep it respectful. And there might be personal experiences that you're going to be offended by what I said, or maybe something Stephanie said. This isn't about you or me.

We're all entitled to our opinions on it. I think based on the evidence in this case, maybe that's why I have less sympathy for Lindsay because I don't think that she was insane when it happened. But that's just my opinion. Yeah, I think what I did was I did one of these like, oh, this is going to be so controversial. You were like, really? Yeah. And you were like, because I think it's important. I think it's an important conversation to have, because honestly, I do find there to be a little

bit of a damaging double standard, because when fathers kill their children, nobody's ever like, oh, what must he have been going through? But everybody said Chris Watts was the best father ever. Everybody was like, oh my God, I can't believe he did this. He loved his kids. He loved his kids so much. He was the best father ever. He was the nicest guy. Like everybody said that the stuff that Patrick is saying about Lindsay, people said about Chris Watts, but nobody, when men can kill their children, nobody's like, oh no, what must this poor man have been going through to make him do this? So I think there's a little bit of a dangerous double standard that we just have to be aware of because we all have our biases. Right. And we do look at mothers to be more maternal than than fathers, obviously. Right. Like, oh, they're less likely to kill. But

the stats show that that's not true. So I think we need to really try to put our biases aside a little bit because we got to treat these cases as similarly as possible, especially when what Lindsay's lawyers are trying to argue is so difficult to prove objectively, right? And it's going to be based on the... Yeah. Yeah. I'd be saying the same thing if it was Patrick or Lindsay, wouldn't matter to me. Don't matter. I'd be saying the same thing if it was Patrick or Lindsay, wouldn't matter to me. Don't matter, I'd be saying the same thing. So I said, oh, this is gonna be so controversial. And you were like, really? And I was like, well, to say the least,

I said, to say the least, there's gonna be some spirited conversations in the comment section. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to it because I think it's a good conversation to have. And that's why we cover these cases. It is.

Difficult conversations are always necessary to have, especially in the arena of true crime. Otherwise, we're just using it for entertainment. If we're not having these difficult conversations and challenging our own set in biases, set in beliefs about the world around us, we have to challenge that. And we have to look at each case objectively, as objectively as possible. And on its own merit, you merit. We can't just say, oh, a woman who had a baby seven months ago must be postpartum. We have to look at all the evidence presented and try to be as fair as possible. And by the way, I'm not saying I'm being objective in this one because clearly I'm

self-aware enough to know I'm not. I'm thinking about my own kids. I think about how I would react and that's not being objective, but that's okay. We all have flaws. So we want to hear your opinions on this one. Wait out in the comments below if you're watching on YouTube, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave a comment, leave a review there. I think there's even a Q&A section on the Spotify. I look at that all the time. So leave your comments. Let us know what you think. As Stephanie said, we're open to the dialogue. That's why we cover these tough cases. We want to elicit conversations that maybe educate us more on the topic. So let us know what you think. We appreciate you guys being here. Stephanie, any final words before we take it out? Not at all. We'll see you next week for the conclusion

of this. We are looking forward to hearing your thoughts in the comments. We're looking forward to it. Everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Have a good night.