Crime Weekly - S3 Ep166: Lindsay Clancy: Suspicious Searches (Part 2)

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Those who knew the Clancy family of Duxbury, Massachusetts would describe them as happy, loving, and completely normal. Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General Hospital. Her husband Patrick worked as a consultant for a technology company, and by 2023, the couple had been married for six years and they had welcomed three beautiful children into their family: 5-year-old Cora, 3-year-old Dawson, and 7-month-old Callan. Neighbors recalled that Patrick was a very loving father. They would always see him in the backyard playing with his kids. Lindsay and Patrick never fought. They said "I love you" to each other ten times a day, and above all, they both worked hard to provide and care for their family. So when Lindsay was charged with the murders of her three small children, the shock and disbelief was palpable, and no one could wrap their heads around how something this unfathomable could happen to a family who seemed to love and value each other so much. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code HELIXPARTNER25 for 25% off all mattress orders and 2 free pillows! 2. Quince.com/CrimeWeekly - Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your order! 3. HelloFresh.com/CrimeWeeklyFree - Use code CRIMEWEEKLYFREE for FREE breakfast for life! 4. ZocDoc.com/CrimeWeekly - Download the ZocDoc app for free! 5. SimpliSafe.com/CrimeWeekly  - Save up to 50% on any new system with a Fast Protect Plan!

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Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we are diving into part two of the Lindsay Clancy case. This will be our final episode on this case, at least until more information comes out. But how are you feeling about it going into this week? I'm feeling great. I'm feeling really good. I think the conversations mostly on Instagram and on YouTube were constructive, obviously. And we alluded to this in the episode.

You have criticism. You have some people who have had personal experiences who are really close to this and are defensive over it, which I completely understand. I think the one thing, and it's not even a clarification, but for me personally, and I'm going to be open to what we have to talk about tonight before I make my final opinion known, but I think that's important to say it's just my opinion based on my personal experiences in life, which I've never had postpartum depression. So I acknowledge that. But I think the one thing that I saw, and it wasn't prevalent, it wasn't a lot of people, was the distinction between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, which I thought you did a great job of

differentiating the two, explaining them by definition. And there may have been a couple instances where maybe myself, I might've made it sound as if I was switching the two. But to make it very clear, I understand postpartum depression is one thing. Psychosis is pretty self-explanatory. It's something different where it happens at a moment's notice. You don't really see it coming and you're not really, you're not really there when it's happening. Where postpartum depression is something that is much more prevalent in our society. A lot of women go through it. And it's kind of, unfortunately, a normal thing that happens, as Stephanie had said about her own personal experience.

My takeaway from episode one, just to make it perfectly clear, was yes, I understand the two. And I understand postpartum psychosis. I'm not a doctor. But from a detective's perspective, if I were looking at this case and the facts surrounding it, I would charge her with three counts of murder. I'll let the court decide as her defense if she was under this postpartum psychosis. If you're asking my opinion, which is why we do this show to give our opinions on it as well as the case, it doesn't

sound to me like she was going through an episode of psychosis, but that's just my opinion after episode one. And I always reserve judgment to, you know, reserve the opportunity to change my opinion as we go through a series, which I have sometimes done. But overall, I thought it was a very constructive conversation going on, on both platforms. I don't know if you saw sometimes you're like, Derek, well, you were missing it. But that's what that's what was my takeaway. So just for clarification, it hasn't been stated that Lindsay's had any of the above postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis. I explained the difference between the two

because it's been alluded to by her lawyer that he may go with this defense, right? So nobody's come straight out. You didn't say that? That she had been to some stuff that had happened before that where Patrick was aware of it? I could be wrong. I thought that you did. So when Lindsay described like she would talk about her issues with postpartumum anxiety on facebook and that's how she had referred to it um when she went in to you know and we're going to talk about that a little bit tonight

when she did go into um the doctors to see you know what was going on and look for help they said she did not show any signs or symptoms of postpartum depression. They diagnosed her with a generalized anxiety disorder. But what her lawyer is, I believe, going to try to say is she had some sort of postpartum issue and then she was over-medicated for whatever issue she had, which then caused her to have some sort of break with reality. Yeah. But it's never been stated that she was diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. It's never been stated that she was diagnosed with postpartum depression, at least with this baby, her third and final baby, Kellen. It's just kind of like things that the defense attorneys are rolling around and kind of seeing. And I'm

not saying she didn't, right? We don't know if she did or not. And once again, that's going to be for the medical experts to battle it out in court. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. But that was just the opinion after episode one. I said, oh, postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis and explained the definitions and the differences between the two specifically because just the conversation has been going around like, well, maybe this is what she was suffering from, but it's never been like explicitly said. So I honestly, I don't, you know, and people are, some people in the comments were like, well, she had postpartum psychosis. You don't know if she did or not. And then other people were like, well, she didn't, she wasn't like having an affair or planning vacations or doing any of this stuff before.

You don't know that though, right? So we don't know what was in her electronic history. We know some of it, what the prosecution has revealed thus far, but we don't know what else she was doing. She could have been doing things that she could have been having an affair. Like, I'm not else she was doing. She could have been doing things that she could have been having an affair. Like I'm not saying she was, but she could have been. There could be a motive that just is yet to be revealed. So for anybody to state so resolutely, well, she wasn't doing this, she wasn't doing that. And I understand that people

have personal experiences with this. So they do feel defensive around it, and that's fine. But understand that you can defend yourself in these scenarios, but you can't, as of yet, defend her and say, absolutely, 100%, this poor woman was suffering, and she didn't have any idea what she was doing. Nobody can say that at this point. And if that was so cut and dry, we wouldn't be here talking about it. Yeah. I think it's a great point you're making too, as far as postpartum depression and some of our listeners and viewers who may have experienced that as well. You don't necessarily have to hitch your wagon to Lindsay's car, her horse, because everyone's different. You know

your scenario. It may be very different from Lindsay's. We don't know yet. We're just going off the specifics of the case, the facts of the case as we know them, and they are evolving, and we will learn more over time. So just coming from where we are now, that's where we sit. But we got a whole new episode to go tonight, and who knows? Opinions have been altered in the past. Will it happen again tonight? We shall see. they spoke to Patrick Clancy, who informed them that his youngest child, Callan, had been born on May 26, 2022. But at the end of September, his wife, Lindsay, had started expressing anxiety about returning to her job as a labor and delivery nurse at Mass General Hospital. Now, at that time, when she was having some anxiety, Lindsay was seen by two psychiatrists, Jennifer Tufts and Rebecca Jolotta. So Lindsay was prescribed multiple medications, including Zoloft, Valium, Trazodone, Ativan, Klonopin, Prozac, and Seroquel. We don't really know who prescribed this or what

the timeline of these prescriptions was, but we're going to get a little more information as we keep going. That's a lot. That is a lot, but we're going to get a little more information as we keep going. So the pre- That's a lot. That is a lot, but not all at once. Yeah, not all at once, but over a course of time, maybe certain things weren't working and they switched it to other things. Is that what we're saying here? It looks like that's what happened. And I did speak to somebody because, you know, people are very quick to tell us that we're not doing our research and we're not talking to people who struggle with these things. I do, do both.

And I spoke to somebody who I personally know who has been going through mental health struggles for a few years, has been prescribed multiple psychiatric medications exactly like these. And I'm going to talk about that in a little bit. But, you know, I did get some insight onto why this many medications would be prescribed and kind of what the process would be for that. So the previous month on August 1st, the previous month before she had, you know, been anxious about returning to work, Lindsay had posted to a Facebook group called the Miracle Morning Facebook group. And she was a part of this group.

And Miracle Morning is a concept that the first hour of your day matters very much. And a successful day doesn't just happen. It's a result of the choices we make. Now, the concept is basically to block one hour of your day off every morning and devote it to personal development using six practices. Sitting in silence for a few minutes to quiet your mind and reduce your stress, using positive affirmations, visualization, exercise, reading at least 10 pages of a book a day, and journaling, or as the Miracle Morning Facebook group refers to it as scribing. So Lindsay stated in this group, quote,

had my third baby two months ago and tried to stick with my MM, miracle morning, after he was born, end quote. But Lindsay also lamented that she'd fallen off her routine after Callan's birth. And she went on to say, quote, even though I was up at 1230, 130, and three with the baby, I'm still going to try to start my day at five so I can get a good MM in before everyone is up. Wish me luck. End quote. I'm going to stop here and address some things. Number one, I think that women and mothers do often struggle with this. They want to be on a routine. They want to be like doing the right things. They want to be keeping themselves physically and mentally healthy. But the most healthy thing physically and mentally for a new mother to do is sleep. Sleep is the first thing that you have to get because a lack of sleep

is going to cause a myriad of problems. And I promise you that no hour in the morning of journaling and reading 10 pages and meditating and visualization and all of this shit, that is not going to be as beneficial to you as another hour of sleep or another few hours of sleep, right? So you got to sleep when you can, when you're a new mother and you have a baby that isn't a great sleeper. Even though Patrick Clancy did say that Callan was their easiest baby and their best sleeper, you got to sleep when the baby sleeps. So worry less, especially in those first months about doing everything right and staying on your routines and getting to the gym and meditating and journaling. Worry less about that and worry more about sleeping so that you have like a clear and steady mind to start your day with.

That is more important than anything. And there's so much pressure on mothers in general to like do it all and be it all and take care of the husband and take care of the babies and take care of yourself. No, take care of yourself because without you, everything else is falling down. It's so stupid to say it's such a cliche thing, but you cannot pour from an empty cup. And if you've been up at 12, 30, 1, 30, and 3, and then you want to start your day at 5 so that you can have an hour of sitting in silence for a few minutes and journaling and stuff, no.

Get your sleep. First and foremost, when Callen's a little older, you can get back into your routine when you're more settled. If she was already struggling with mental health issues, that lack of sleep, that sleep deprivation is going to be the worst possible thing for her. Yeah. And I will say this, although I understand that our audience is the majority of you guys are women, but I will say for any of the guys out there, the dads out there, the fathers out there, they carried the baby for nine months or close to that step up. And when the baby's here, it's time for you to kick in and do what you got to do. Uh, when I had 10 Liam Payton,

or I should say when Jan had 10 Liam Payton, I really felt an obligation to put in those hours to do the night shift, if you will, to allow her to recover because she's not just recovering after the pregnancy. It takes months of recovering from all the sleep she lost over that time carrying an eight pound baby. So you really got to step up and do your, and do your part and alleviate some of that stress, that responsibility on top of taking care of your own shit, right? Like doing your own stuff, not like you had said, like taking care of the husband. She shouldn't be taking care of you at that point. You be taking care of yourself you're a grown man you just had

a son or a daughter time to step up do your thing and and take on that responsibility especially the overnight stuff when janna we didn't she didn't breastfeed so she didn't have to get up and pump she did try it the first round it didn't work out well long story short she didn't do it so it allowed me to kind of do the night feedings. And I feel like it's a partnership and I don't know, Patrick, I don't know what the situation was. I don't know. I'm not going to sit here and judge him on something I didn't know, but yeah, you definitely want to take on as much responsibility as you can as the father to allow your significant other the time she needs to recover. And without adding additional stress on her, which she already has, her body's just been completely torn apart. to allow your significant other the time she needs to recover. And without adding additional

stress on her, which she already has, her body's just been completely torn apart doing this. She needs a little reprieve. So do what you can step up, be the man, do your job. Yeah. And I mean, Patrick was, you know, he did do his part. He was working. I'm not saying he didn't. I know I'm going to qualify here. Not saying he didn't. No, no, for sure. But you know, I don't know the dynamic in the house. So many don't. So many don't carry their weight. And I'm not saying they're bad for it. And they're trying to be like assholes. And they're trying to just put it all on their wife.

But don't be asking where dinner is. You know what I mean? They do not realize. Yeah, they don't realize the toll that it takes on you to go through this pregnancy. And you're right. Once you get big enough, you're not sleeping, man. You're not sleeping for like months before you even give birth to that child. And you're completely sleep deprived and a good mental state starts with like a good night's rest. And that's just scientifically and medically proven. I think sometimes for women, just the effort and showing that you want to help and that you understand that you don't understand, it goes a long way. No doubt. I mean, I honestly felt guilty because yeah, she was doing all the work, going through all the struggle, all the

stress, all the discomfort. So when the babies were here, it was like, Hey, I got this. Like this tag team, you're out. I'm in, I got this. You sleep all night. I worked the night shift, uh, for most of my life. So she can back me up on this from like 11 o'clock till seven in the morning. It was me every time. It was me every time. Now, during the day I would sleep a lot because that's when my schedule was for work as a, as a police officer. So I would sleep during the day and then, you know, she would, she would do her, her stuff. But obviously on the nights I had to work, that's another thing I thought about. I always felt guilty going back to work knowing she had to take on that added responsibility. Cause I was, you know, I was working, but yeah, you got, it's, it's a team

effort, man. You got to help out as much as you can. There's certain things that personally you have to, like you were saying, you got to sleep, eat well, you know, do what you can to get that in for you. But if there's anything your partner, or even if it's not your partner, your, your family or friends can help you out with, don't be too prideful to ask for help. And cause I'm sure there's people in your life or hopefully there is. It not yeah that was not a pride thing it's it's not a pride thing it's like motherly instinct saying don't be too prideful it's just like you feel like you should be able to do this because yeah you know women for centuries have been pushing kids out in the fields and then going back to work and not missing a beat like no they weren't no they't. No, they weren't. It's just, you know, women and

men have their own things that they feel, I should be able to do this. And so I shouldn't have to ask for help. So it's unfortunate. And I mean, like I've experienced it. There's shame. It's shame. Like, why can't I do this? And it it's just rough but I'm glad you got up with Jana or with the babies for Jana at night because so many men do not do that do not do that and I tell you for months and months I was a zombie and I've never recovered and I think I responded to somebody in the comment section they were like yeah it's it's crazy and I said I feel like I have PTSD sometimes I still hear Bella as a baby crying at night. And I wake up in like a cold sweat.

And I'm like, and then it takes me a few minutes to realize like, no, she's six. She's not crying. She's not a baby anymore. I'm not even in the same house. You never like it rewires your brain. So sometimes still when I hear babies crying, I get all freaked out. Yeah, it's not a great time. It's not a great time.

And you're told it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be the most magical time of your life. And it is the least magical time. And you're okay for feeling that way. Because any woman that's like, I love being pregnant. I love having babies. Maybe they do. But they're the exception on the roll. I love having babies. Maybe they do, but they're the exception. I gotta say, it is incredibly taxing and strenuous. So yeah, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. told the detectives that his wife would sometimes take up to four different medications a day,

but she was taking them as prescribed. According to Lindsay's attorney, Kevin Reddington, she had been prescribed 13 different medications between October of 2022 and January of 2023, and I believe that's about eight months. That is pretty extreme, I will not lie. Now, during a search of the house, investigators located several items, including more than one notebook, which Lindsay had been using as journals to keep track of her daily activities, to keep track of the medicines she was taking, the doses, and as well as keeping track of her mental state, like how she was feeling from day to day. Lindsay also made notes in her iPhone.

And on October 25th, 2022, she wrote, quote, I think I sort of resent my other children because they prevent me from treating Cal like my first baby. And I know that's not fair to them. I know that. I was feeling so depressed last evening when Cora and Dawson came home from school.

I know it runs off on them. So we had a pretty rough evening. I want to feel love and connectionson came home from school. I know it runs off on them, so we had a pretty rough evening. I want to feel love and connection with all of my kids, end quote. So this is important. What she's saying here is not an uncommon sentiment, but it does speak to her mental state where she is feeling depressed and she's feeling resentful towards her children. Because, you know, and it's hard. Like I said, Bella was my third and I had two other children. And you feel guilty.

You feel guilty that you're not giving enough to the new baby. And then you feel guilty that you're not giving enough to the, you know, the older children. Because they, you know, they were there already and now a new baby's here and it's taking all your attention. And then you feel kind of like just guilty and resentful in general. And she says, I want to feel love and connection with all of my kids, which to me suggests maybe in that moment when she wrote that she wasn't feeling so much love and connection towards Cora and Dawson, right? Is that what it says to you? Am I reading that correctly? It's interesting because I don't know. As we're reading it, it's almost like she's acknowledging the feeling. So I don't know if she was... She's checking herself, which is great.

She's having this feeling. So I guess, yeah, to answer your question, it's self-explanatory. She's saying, I sort of resent my other children. Her words, not ours, right? So to answer your question, it's self-explanatory. She's saying, I sort of resent my other children. Her words, not ours. Right. So to answer your question, yes. But I do love the fact that she's conscious of what she's saying and aware that it's wrong. Like she's like, I don't like that I feel this way. And she's completely in touch with her feelings and that maybe this isn't the best thing, the best way, the perspective to look at it. The other thing that's interesting about this, this, this little statement here is the fact that you said it occurred October 25th, 2022, right? We know that this incident happened in January of 2023. So this is October 5th. That means you got almost, almost three months, right?

November, December, January, almost all of January before this happened. So she had been having these feelings for a decent amount of time, three months, a long time. So I wonder if, and maybe you're going to get into it, maybe you're not, but I wonder if these thoughts got progressively worse as time went on instead of getting better. I also thought it was interesting that she said, she knows it's not fair to Cora and Dawson and she knows it runs off on them. So we had a pretty rough evening, which means that she's aware that she's sort of acting towards her two older children in a way that. Yeah. Taking it out on them. Yes. Yes.

Or maybe just to be safe here, maybe not taking it out on them is a strong word, but maybe neglecting them. Maybe not showing them as much attention. Cold, distant. Yes. Passive. You know, it's not necessarily that. I don't want people to get the impression I'm suggesting she's like beating them or

doing something to them. It could be just as minor as when they're showing her affection, her not reciprocating. It could be that simple. I agree. And listen, once again, been there. Even now, I get there. I work a lot. The cases I cover are very hard. The cases we cover are very hard. And sometimes they stick with me and it's hard for me to leave them behind. And so I'll be very feeling stressed. There's a lot of pressure. I'm going through a lot of emotions that I haven't processed yet. And I don't have it in me to be warm and loving towards another human being at that point, even my kids. So once again,

normal feelings, no huge red flags here, but it does show that, as you said, this was three months before she murdered her three children, and she's feeling these ways. Yeah, not a good sign. It happens, and again, happens to other people, but just obviously no one wants to feel this way about their children. I think that's a fair statement. Yes. Now, on December 20th, Lindsay was evaluated at the Women and Infants Hospital Center for Women's Behavioral Health in Providence, Rhode Island, and psychiatrists there informed her that she did not have postpartum depression, that she had no signs or symptoms of postpartum depression. In November, Lindsay posted in another Facebook group that she was a member of. It was the I Am Not Alone Postpartum Depression and

Rage group. Lindsay told the other members that she was experiencing depression, insomnia, and decreased appetite while taking Zoloft, and even though she felt better on Ativan, she was concerned she might become addicted to it. Patrick stated that by the end of December 2022, Lindsay was having thoughts of hurting herself as well as her children, thoughts that she allegedly communicated to her psychiatrist, Jennifer Tufts. On January 1st, Lindsay admitted herself into the McLean Psychiatric Hospital in Belmont, where she spent five days, during which the doctors decided to take her off of Seroquel, which is a drug that's used to treat schizophrenia and depression. I believe it's an antipsychotic.

And they put her on trazodone, which is an antidepressant, and Ativan to treat anxiety. Lindsay's lawyer, Kevin Reddington, claims that during her time at McLean, Lindsay complained about becoming addicted to benzodiazepines. So these are a class of drugs that are known as downers. They produce sedation and relieve anxiety. Examples of benzos would be Valium, Xanax, Ativan, and Klonopin. The interesting thing is Reddington said that Lindsay was given Ativan while at McLean, but in her Facebook post from two months before she even went into the psychiatric hospital, Lindsay had mentioned that she preferred Ativan to Zoloft. So she must have already been prescribed the Ativan

or she was taking it without a prescription or Reddington has his facts wrong. Either way, I mean, what do you make of that? Like she definitely said in November that she preferred Ativan, but she didn't want to become addicted to it because it's a benzo. But Kevin Reddington, her lawyer, is saying she was given Ativan at McLean. And I don't understand

how that would be possible. He did take her. Yeah, one of those options are right. I mean, she had to have taken, how can you say I prefer something if you've never had it before, right? So she's obviously taken it before. I don't know if it was relatively recent future history where she had taken it when this first started happening or was it years ago? I time. But clearly she's had it before, whether it was recent events or back a few years, who knows? She could have gotten prescribed it after a postpartum issue with another child. Exactly. That's possible. Yes. That's what I'm thinking. He might be just recounting because of what you said earlier

when we opened the show as far as her maybe being prescribed too much and the mixture of things kind of contributed to this, that could be why he's bringing it up now as a potential narrative for defense. Yeah, and this hospital, well, the one that she went to in Rhode Island where they said she didn't have postpartum depression. Very familiar with it, by the way.

This is a hospital called Women and Infants Hospital Center for Women's Behavioral Health. So it's like kind of a specialized hospital for women and infants and behavioral health. And they said, no, you don't have postpartum depression. Now, could she have been misdiagnosed? Yeah, she could have been misdiagnosed. It's possible. Yeah, I don't speak for everyone, but I am very familiar with women and infants. That's where both my children were born. And they're known to have a good facility. They're good doctors. I can throw a baseball and hit it from where I am right now at the studio. So it is a facility that's known for its practices. And there's people who come

from Connecticut or whatever to women and infants because of their facilities and the people they have working there. So not saying that's the case for everyone. We just covered a case about hospital that kind of went the opposite way. Every doctor is its own individual. But yes, to your point, you're dealing with these type of situations. This hospital, Women and Infants, would be a hospital that would have the staffing and the technology. And the resources, yeah. Yeah, the resources to treat such an issue. Yeah. So now she's been to two places, McLean and Women's and Infants, and they've both kind of been like, all right, you know, we'll try this, we'll try that, but you're okay. You know, we think you're okay. Because McLean, they discharged Lindsay on January 5th, and they said that there was no indication at that time that she was a danger to herself or others.

She also kept meticulous and detailed daily medication logs in a diary that she wrote. She detailed that she had difficulties with each of the medications that were prescribed to her. And when she had issues with those medications, she detailed how her doctor had her stop that medication or wean off of it and then try something else. They were trying different medications to see what would work for her, what would benefit her. According to her husband, she was never on more than four to five medications at one time, and at the time of the murder, she was taking only three medications. And he said to the police that she always took the medications as prescribed. After her stay at McLean, the defendant appeared to be

getting better, according to her husband. She slept well, interacted with friends and family. She went out with her kids and husband to places like the Kingsbury Club in Duxbury, the Charlie Horse Restaurant, the Museum of Science in Boston, the Cape Codder down the Cape, interacting with her family and the public without any apparent difficulties. She even stayed alone with the children on several occasions without any issues in January of 2023. Her husband asked her in mid-January, are you still having suicidal thoughts? And she said, no. The defendant's parents visited the family the weekend of January 21st, 2023. They interacted with the defendant in person. The defendant was able to run errands

while her mom watched the children. She texted back and forth with her mother, and there was nothing out of the ordinary about these text messages. In fact, the defendant texted her mother on January 22nd, 2023, to ask how her ride home went. During this conversation, the defendant's mother wrote, quote, enjoyed seeing everyone this weekend. Nice to see you doing better, end quote. On the night of the

killings, Patrick Clancy was interviewed by the police at Beth Israel Deaconess Plymouth Hospital. He told the police that the defendant was having one of her best days. She was smiling and happy, and there was no indication that she was going to harm the kids. No one, no one at all described her as acting like a zombie in the days leading up to the murder or on the day of the murders themselves. So Patrick Clancy had told the police that he'd asked his wife, Lindsay, if she was still having suicidal thoughts after she left McLean, and she said no. On the evening of January 22nd, 2023, Patrick, along with Lindsay and their two older children, had dinner at the home of Kyle Carney, who'd been friends with Patrick for 10 years. Kyle said that while the Clancy's were there, Lindsay was mostly quiet and kept to herself. She mainly was focused on her phone. Kyle and his wife hadn't even seen Lindsay for a few months and they were surprised that she was even there based on what Patrick had been telling them about her mental state.

Kyle Carney told the police that Patrick had told him that Lindsay was about to go back to work. She was having some anxiety about it. She was prescribed medication, but Patrick felt that these medications were not working, and he was now worried that Lindsay was addicted to benzodiazepines. Patrick also told Kyle that Lindsay was having issues with her medications, but that she was mostly anxious and not depressed, and he felt her anxiety level was normal and not severe. She had even joked with him about talking to her therapist about her anxiety. One of the search warrants states, quote, Mr. Carney stated that Pat mentioned Lindsay was suffering from withdrawals from the benzodiazepines approximately a month and a half ago, and that is

when he began to open up to both Mr. Carney and his wife, Sarah Carney. Pat told Carney that he was really concerned about the withdrawals and said that Lindsay had the worst side effects possible. Lindsay was also prescribed more medication for sleeping. Mr. Carney stated that Pat felt as if he needed to get more involved with her treatment due to the fact that Lindsay was going by herself to a psychiatrist for a while and he felt that she was prescribed too many medications. Mr. Carney informed me that Pat never voiced concern of Lindsay hurting herself, end quote. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. So a psychiatrist retained by the Plymouth District Attorney's Office reviewed the medical

records of Lindsay Clancy, as well as her prescriptions and journals. And this doctor concluded that she found nothing out of the ordinary in the manner of treatment or the medications that were prescribed to Lindsay. This doctor also reviewed the toxicology reports from blood samples that were taken from Lindsay on January 24th, which is the day that she killed her children, at 8.18 p.m., almost exactly two hours after her children were found strangled to death with exercise bands in the basement of her home. Seven different medications were found in Lindsay's results, a mix of antidepressants and sedatives, and all were found to be at therapeutic levels except for one, Seroquel,

which is an antipsychotic. And this medication was found to be at a toxic level in Lindsay's blood. Additionally, some of the medications were found to be at peak level at the time the blood was drawn, which meant that Lindsay had taken them about two hours beforehand, leading ADA Jennifer Sprague to point out, quote, this would mean that the defendant took this large amount of Remeron, an antidepressant, and Seroquel after she killed her children, end quote. That's interesting. That is interesting. Now, I had said at the top of the show, I'm not a doctor. So this case, as it goes to trial,

is going to be the battle of the doctors because we're having a psychiatrist here coming to these conclusions, deducing what she or he believed happened and when she took the medication and whether the levels were suitable or not, or what she was on was appropriate. I guarantee you there will be a doctor. Maybe you're going to get into it tonight. There will be a doctor for the defense who's going to say the opposite, right? They're going to find someone who's going to say the opposite and maybe they truly believe that. But it is very interesting to this final notation here that based on the levels of these certain medications,

they were taken after the fact, which I guess could go either way, depending on what camp you're in right if you're in the camp of She was she understood what she was doing She knew where she was at She was coherent during this this murder these murders She consciously took the medication after the fact to calm herself down because she was upset or whatever And if she was in this form of psychosis, the last thing she would be thinking about Is self-medicating right? She would just be blacked out and doing what she's doing. On the other hand, if you're someone who's in the psychosis camp, you may argue, listen, she went through what she went through, realized what she did. Oh my God, I don't remember any of this and hit herself with some hard doses of this medication to try to subdue whatever she was feeling, even though she had already done what she had done. So I think this is one of those facts

where depending on where you land, you can interpret it a certain way, which is what sucks about the judicial system. But interpretation, that's the key phrase here. That's the key word. How do you interpret it? I don't know, Stephanie, what's your thoughts on it? So Seroquel is an antipsychotic. And at first, when I read that she had taken it and there was a toxic dose found, not a lethal dose, but a toxic dose found in her blood. I was like, well, maybe she tried to kill herself that way. But then I looked it up and it's very hard to overdose on Seroquel. It's not something that's commonly done. Yeah, there's probably something better you could take. And she had plenty of stuff that she could have taken if she wanted to overdose, right? Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.

She definitely had a medicine cabinet full of stuff for sure. But I remember that they said, you know, when they had brought her into the hospital and her attorney was like, well, she's got a flat affect. She's not feeling anything, et cetera, et cetera. Seroquel, if taken in very, very high doses, can cause like this sort of profound drowsiness and sedation. It can make you seem like you are a zombie, you know, so which Kevin Reddington, Lindsay's attorney, has referred to her multiple times. She's a zombie. She's a zombie. Well, if she took this much Seroquel, then yes, I suppose that she would be like a zombie.

And if you had a break, a psychotic break, murdered your three children, and then afterwards you were like, like very shortly afterwards, right? I murdered my three children. Let me take a bunch of anti-psychotic. I don't know. Why would you take it then? If you were of a sound enough mind directly after these murders to take that, why wouldn't you be of a sound enough mind beforehand to take it and then maybe possibly prevent it? So I'm not sure what her motive was in doing that. I really, I don't know. I really don't know. You know, there's a phrase and it's

not a perfect, it's not a great example here, but there's a phrase that's used a lot, especially a trial called consciousness of guilt. And it's basically showing that the offender did certain behaviors or carried out certain activities after the commission of the crime to prove that they knew they had done something wrong. Right. And there's way better examples of this. Like, you know, we talk about cases where the person will hide the body or cover up or clean up the crime scene or try to flee the country. Those are stronger examples of consciousness of guilt. And I wonder if the argument could be made that her taking medication after the killing of her children was a very, again, weak, I'll acknowledge weak example of consciousness of guilt, knowing that something just happened that shouldn't have happened based on an irrational thought. And she was trying to correct that irrational thought by self-medicating. Again, that's going to be a better argument for the prosecution if that's an angle they decide to go with. And I will acknowledge that even just

hearing it out of my own mouth, it's very weak. It's very weak. This is something, as I said earlier, where you could take that assessment that this, you know, she had taken this medication after the killing of her children. And depending on which way you want to go, I can see it fitting both puzzles, if that makes sense. So would you consider, well, first of all, like, I don't want to keep saying like, oh, she snapped and had a moment of like psychosis or whatever, because once again, three children, it's going to take at least five to six minutes, if not more each to end their lives. So this was more than a moment of psychosis, right? Can I be devil's advocate real quick? Cause you know what you got, everyone

knows how I feel. So, you know, this isn't necessarily my opinion, but let me push back on that for the people in YouTube comments and audio. What if they said, okay, Stephanie, Derek, momentary is also subjective. Momentary could be 20 to 30 minutes. It could be an hour. Could an argument be made that she was under the psychosis for the entirety of this incident? That's what I think we might get some pushback on in the comments. And then snapped out of the psychosis immediately after finishing and then was like, let me take medication.

And momentary, I don't think is subjective. I do not think momentary is subjective. Momentary. It's a moment, you know, 30 minutes. What's a moment to you? I could say that our time together at CrimeCon was a moment for me that I'll always remember over that three-day span. It was a moment that I will always cherish.

No, you would say it was a weekend that I'll always remember over that three-day span. It was a moment that I will always cherish. No, you would say it was a weekend that I will always cherish or a weekend that I'll always remember. Tomato, tomato. No, it's not. So like if I say, if I'm having a bad day and I snap at my husband and he's like, what's wrong with you? You're not usually the snappish. And I was like, oh, it's a moment of weakness. I'm sorry. That means like- Why are you going to go negative? Jesus. In a moment, I did something that was out of character and then I snapped out of it. It was just a moment of weakness. It was a moment of bad behavior. We could go to the movies and I could say that moment was an amazing moment sitting there with you watching. No, you would not. You would never say that ever. And if you did, I would definitely

call you out and I'd be like a moment. Like, what did you fall asleep? And it just felt like a moment. Like it doesn't fit, but. Okay. So, but you know where I'm coming from this, you know where I'm coming from the angle of, and I think that the defense is going to do this too, where they're going to say that this entire incident happened during a time when she was either through the chemicals that she was taking, the medication she was taking or the psychosis. I don't know what angle they're going to go with. That's possible. But that this entire event occurred during that time.

Yeah. They're going to have to find some way to prove that though. Okay. I just wanted to put it out there. At least put a good argument for that. And so all of these smaller details are going to come into play. And clearly, yes, the prosecution does feel that Lindsay taking this Remeron and this Seroquel, so an antidepressant and antipsychotic directly after killing her children, is important in some way and important as in it benefits their case. Yeah. And see, I would think maybe we're going to get into it.

The defense probably feels the same as well. As I mentioned, a search warrant was executed at the Clancy home and police recovered several items, electronics, including a tablet with a blue case found on the kitchen counter near the sink and a tablet with a purple case located in the same area, a pink Apple iPhone in a brown case and a second pink Apple iPhone located in the dresser of the master bedroom. Now, in one of the search warrants, it says, quote, investigators are also aware that Ms. Clancy's cellular telephone, described as a pink Apple iPhone with a clear slash brown case,

was located as a result of a search warrant that was executed on Wednesday, January 25th, 2023. Investigators are aware that a forensic examination on the cellular telephone indicated several pictures and videos were edited from their original formats, which led investigators to believe that the original version of the digital media files may be contained on the secondary cellular telephone described as a pink Apple iPhone with no identifiable serial number, end quote.

So they find her main cell phone that she's using. They find another cell phone, another iPhone, in the master bedroom in a dresser, which is where Lindsay was when she attempted to take her own life, which is also a question I have. Would you consider somebody trying to take their own life after the commission of a crime

to be consciousness of guilt? That's the thing, right? That's why I brought up that phrase is I think that some may take it as consciousness of guilt where she realizes what she had done and she decided to try to take her own life because of what she had done. But I also see the argument. I could see this. I actually agree with this where it's like, oh my God, what did I just do? I'm a monster. I'm going to kill myself now because I can't believe that I was even capable of doing that. I can absolutely see both sides and I'm not even playing devil's advocate there. I can see it. I can see how the fact that she tried to kill herself immediately after could be an indication

that she wasn't even aware of what she did until after the fact, if you're going that way. So they also recovered a large blood-covered kitchen knife located on the nightstand in the master bedroom, right next to the open window that Lindsay had allegedly jumped from, although whether she intended to take her own life would be called into question by the prosecution. Police located a brown notebook in the basement, as well as a multicolored notebook in a kitchen cabinet, and it was in these notebooks that Lindsay made her daily updates. In the months, weeks, and days leading up to the murders of her three children,

Lindsay took detailed notes about her children's lives, her mental state, and her medication use. ADA Jennifer Sprague pointed out that Lindsay's writing was clear, precise, and articulate, and quote, she never indicated she was hallucinating, delusional, or had disordered thoughts or speech. She wrote on the day before killing the children that she felt a touch of postpartum anxiety around returning to work, end quote. According to the authorities investigating this case, Lindsay had used her electronic devices to research ways to kill. And four days before she strangled her children, Lindsay used her cell phone to look up, can you treat a sociopath?

Okay, did not know this. I'm truly hearing it for the first time. This is bad. This is bad. This is bad for any of you who are in the camp that this was a case of psychosis and it's pretty self-explanatory, but let's dive into it anyways. Let's do it. You can't make the argument that she was perfectly fine. She was doing better. And then she had this bout of post-traumatic psychosis, you know, postpartum psychosis, where in that moment,

she flipped and did something that she never even felt or thought she was capable of. This right here is extremely damning to that defense, okay? She had been researching how to do this. Now, I will say this. It does sound to me, and I don't think I'm like, well, this is a crack detective, you know, interpretation here. She was having these prior thoughts of killing her children, which would negate the defense of psychosis, right? Because that's multiple times where you're thinking about it. And we're not going to

assume that she was under psychosis this entire time where she's searching for ways to strangle her children. And yet she's acknowledging those thoughts are not appropriate, not healthy, not right. And almost always already kind of saying, wow, I'm a sociopath. There's something wrong with me. I, I want to kill my kids. Why am I having these thoughts? So I do feel some bit of like, I guess, I guess feel bad for her because she was clearly fighting a battle within her head. But this kind of drives home the point of what I was saying in episode one,

which I may not have hit perfectly. What I was saying is I acknowledge that she had thoughts going on in her mind. There was, there were things that were not right. I've never said that wasn't the case, but you can not be in the right state of mind and still not kill your children. And the point I'm making is if she felt this bad, if she was having these thoughts and she was even researching how to correct the fact that she was having these thoughts and even let's be honest, referring to herself as a sociopath, she was conscious enough to know this is not good. I need to get away from my children. I can't be here because postpartum depression, as far as I understand it without ever experiencing it myself. And I've, I've talked to some people who've had some experiences with

this, especially about Lindsay Clancy. Cause we're covering it on crime feed next week. There have been even women who have been in a moment where they're like, I just want to throw this kid. You know what I mean? And it's a momentary lapse of judgment or like a thought that's a fleeting thought that's not real. But I think for most of those women, they're not going, oh my God, I'm a sociopath. And then looking how to correct it after the fact. This is a lot deeper than we even know. And maybe even deeper than she felt comfortable writing about in her journal or in her diary. So as far as premeditation is concerned, she's looking up how to do it. She's acknowledging that these thoughts are wrong.

She's defining herself as a sociopath. That doesn't sound like someone who out of the blue had this case of psychosis completely unexpectedly. That doesn't sound, the two don't fit to me. Here's the, yeah. So here's the thing. Um, first of all, researching ways to kill right there. That's premeditated.

If you're researching, if you're researching ways to kill, that's the time when you look at your husband and say, all right, I started researching ways to kill our children. I'm out of here. I'm going to check into a hotel. That is the definition of premeditation. I'm going to check into a hotel. Keep me away from these kids at all costs. I don't care what I say. I don't care how good I seem until there's been enough time and space and I've seen enough doctors. Like I, I can't do this. This is what needs to happen right now. Secondly, I have gone through postpartum issues. Never once did I ask myself if I was a sociopath because I knew enough about my body, my hormones, the fluctuation in your hormones and how it makes you feel. I looked up postpartum depression.

I never looked up, can you treat a sociopath? And here's the thing. I'm just a regular person. Lindsay Clancy was a labor and delivery nurse. So somewhere inside of her, she thought, what's going on with me right now? This is not typical postpartum depression. It's not typical postpartum anxiety. This is not the norm.

Okay. And you may say, yeah, that's because she had postpartum psychosis. Okay. Maybe. But then she'd still know that. But instead she's not looking up, oh, you know, what are the signs of postpartum psychosis? She would already know that. She's a labor and delivery nurse. She'd done classes about this stuff. She's looking up, can you treat a sociopath? So something about what she was going through was different than the patients that she had treated who had postpartum depression or even postpartum psychosis or postpartum issues. There was a recognition in her that something was very wrong. And yet she did not write about this in her journal. She did not tell her husband. I would say she probably didn't tell her psychiatrist because then they would have made sure that she wouldn't go back to her children right away.

She didn't tell the people at McLean. She didn't tell the people at Women and Infants. Because if she had, if she had at any point said, I'm looking up ways to kill my children and I think I might be a sociopath, they would have been like, fair enough. Let's keep you here for a little while. Okay? And we'll see what we can do and we'll see how we can work through this and help you. Don't worry, everything's going to be fine. She was a labor and delivery nurse. She wasn't new to what happens to a woman's body and mind after pregnancy and after delivery. So this is where I get very stuck. Never in my life have I asked myself, am I a sociopath? Now, once again, you may say part of the postpartum psychosis.

We're going to talk about that. Yeah, I completely agree with you. This does not look good, doesn't sound good. And by the way, she's researching this four days before electronically. How many other times has she had this thought? And are we, are we supposed to cough all of this up to psychosis? I don't even think Lindsay is coughing it up to psychosis. She herself is saying, no, there's something deeper here. And that's why she's looking up. Can you treat a sociopath?

She's acknowledging to us, it's something more because she's aware of the thoughts she's having and understands how wrong they are. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. So let's fast forward to February when Lindsay was with Dr. Paul Ziesel, this was a Massachusetts psychologist who was hired by her defense team. On February 5th, 2023, this past Sunday at 1.35 p.m., while sitting with Dr. Paul Ziesel, the psychologist hired by defense counsel to evaluate her mental state, the defendant used Dr. Ziesel's cell phone to call her husband. She left a voicemail stating that she loved him. Yesterday, on February 6, 2023, at 10.09 a.m., she again used Dr. Zizel's cell phone to call her husband. This time he answered, and during this call, the defendant stated that after he left the house that night, she killed the kids because she heard a voice and had, quote, a moment of psychosis, end quote.

He asked her what voices she heard, and she said she heard a man's voice telling her to kill the kids and kill herself because it was her last chance. Patrick Clancy told the police the defendant had never heard voices before. He also told the police the defendant had never used the word psychosis to him before. The first time she used that word psychosis to him before the first time she used that word psychosis was when she was with the doctor hired by defense counsel and using his cell phone that's kind of something right so now we have these claims from lindsay that she was having these auditory delusions that were allegedly completely new to everyone until

february 6th of 2023 that's interesting because she had not written in any of her journals about having hallucinations, not hearing voices. She'd never told any of the mental health professionals that she'd seen that she was having voices. Was the day that she killed her children the first time she heard these voices? I suppose that's possible. But as you heard from ADA Jennifer Sprague, Lindsay described it as having a moment of psychosis, right? A moment of psychosis. And her husband Patrick said she's never even used that term before. She's never said that to anybody. But when she was sitting with the psychiatrist that her defense counsel had hired, all of a sudden she's got these new medical terms and she's aware of what happened to her. Yeah. The argument can definitely be made.

At this point, she's starting to mount a defense. She knows which direction she's going to go. Again, if you're on that team, you would say, yeah, listen, she's done her research. She's done her homework. She knows what she has to say. That's why she's saying it. Or Dr. Paul Zizel is like, well, do you think you had a moment of psychosis? Do you think you heard, did you hear something? Did you hear somebody telling you to do this? It's like in court, they would call that leading the witness. But in a therapeutic mental health setting, when it's just the psychiatrist and the patient, we don't know what's happening. We don't know. I know it was on his cell phone, right?

But that's after she talked to him. And then she called her husband and said all of this. So it's not like she was on her husband the whole time they were having a session. Dr. Paul Ziesel's been with Lindsay, like basically at her bedside, right? Like monitoring her and talking to her for hours. So we don't know how those conversations went. We don't know if he, in a word, led the witness into coming to certain conclusions, which is what ADA Jennifer Sprague is trying to insinuate here.

Yes. Got it. Dr. Paul Ziesel, the forensic psychologist evaluating Clancy, says she may have never told anyone she'd heard voices in the past. Telling you to do things that are malevolent and you believe those voices that are telling you you need to follow what they say, that's when things go downhill. It's unknown if Clancy had heard voices previously. It's a very common psychotic symptom. Auditory hallucinations are one of the more frequent ones we see. Dr. Kelly Wallace teaches criminal justice at LaSalle University and is a trained mental health therapist. They

are not nice voices. They're not telling you that you're a good person. Wallace says the voices someone can hear can be terrifying and reinforce negative thoughts. If she is hearing these commanding voices and they're telling her, demanding that she kill herself and her children in order to save them, she may very well have succumbed in that moment. Prosecutors say Clancy appeared to interact normally in the days and hours leading up to the crime. Wallace says it is possible someone can communicate and behave appropriately while not letting on. They may be suffering with voices in their head. And when those voices are commanding you to do things, it is incredibly frightening.

And the only way to get them to stop is to do the thing. So that's interesting for me because I'm not a doctor. So I'm just coming at it from a very, I guess, basic perspective, just as a human coming at it from a very, I guess, basic perspective, just as a human being, as most of you guys out there, we're not mental health professionals. But my opinion on it is if I'm hearing voices and they're telling me to kill my children and myself, and I can't stop those voices, I may decide to kill myself, but I'm still there enough to know, like, I'm not going to kill my kids. If I plan on killing myself anyways, it's not going to save them.

I'm just going to skip that part and kill myself. So without knowing, like, I guess what schizophrenia consists of, and I don't pretend to be a professional in that area. To me, it just seems like if she were having these thoughts, she probably would have written some of it down. But I will also acknowledge that there are many cases where someone commits suicide and to even their closest friends and family members, there's no indication of it beforehand because they're embarrassed, they're ashamed, whatever it might be. They don't convey any of those thoughts or those feelings to them prior to doing what they do, which is why a lot of the

family members and friends are very upset about it after the fact, because they're like, hey, if they just had talked to us, we would have helped. We would have done what we could. So I see it, but I just feel like even if you're hearing voices, I just think like there's still an opportunity to say no. You may kill yourself because you want the voices to stop. That's happened before. It's going to happen again, unfortunately. I don't see how killing your kids first will stop the voices. And even if it would, I still wouldn't do it.

You know what I mean? Maybe I'm not explaining that well, but that's my thought on it. No, I get it. And I mean, she didn't have schizophrenia. So that's that. That's a problem. She said she had a moment of psychosis. So no, no, no schizophrenia. This isn't like a chronic thing here. I would say that I have no idea what it would be like, no idea what it would be like

and what you would be compelled to do. But as somebody who hasn't experienced it and acknowledged that I haven't experienced it, I feel like if I start hearing voices, I'm going to be like, this isn't right. You know, I've never heard voices before and now I am hearing them. And I know as a human being who lives on the earth, it's not a good thing when you start hearing voices telling you to do things that hurt yourself or others. So I'm going to tell somebody because my main priority right now is to stop the bleeding, basically. Put a stop to this before it gets worse. So if that was the first night she heard voices, did she hear the voices before she sent Patrick out for all these errands? That's a good question, right? Or did she send Patrick out for all these errands and she had no plan to do anything? And then when he left, then she heard the voice,

this man's voice commanding her to kill herself and her children. And this one therapist who is talking about this and saying, oh, these command hallucinations can be very powerful. They can be very powerful when they're telling you that's the only way to save your children. This is a little bit misleading because it's never been stated explicitly anywhere that the voices told Lindsay that killing her children would save them. It just said, is your last chance. So we don't really know what the man's voice told Lindsay to do. I just think it's very convenient that she doesn't mention this at all ever. And then all of a sudden, this is happening after she sits with Dr. Paul Ziesel. And the only reason, and it's just maybe it's my very suspicious mind, but I have seen this

so many times where a person commits a crime of murder, and then they try to use an insanity defense in court. In fact, I'm covering a case right now where a man raped and murdered an eight-year-old girl, and then they recorded him while he was talking to his mother after he was in prison. And he's like, hey, I need you to get me the DSM-IV because we're going to go with an insanity defense. So I have to look it up. So I need you to bring me this book, this DSM-IV. I need it. Like, cause it's just way too convenient. It's always what they go with when they don't actually have a defense. It's like, well, let's just say I went crazy because that's very hard to prove, right? As you've said, you know, this is very subjective. Only the person who's experiencing these things can tell you exactly

what they're experiencing. So if you say, no, I don't think you were experiencing that. Now it becomes this like offensive thing. Like, well, how can you tell me what I'm experiencing? You can't tell me what I'm experiencing. Well, I can tell you, you did something wrong. And now because you did something wrong, all of a sudden you were experiencing these things. But before you did the wrong thing, you weren't experiencing them or didn't voice it in any way to anyone, including the plethora of mental health professionals you spoke to.

You were writing everything down daily in your journals, but you never said anything there. And you're looking up, can you treat a sociopath? And you're looking up ways to kill days in advance. So all of it together, not looking super good, not looking like a moment of psychosis. To me, that's the key component there, what you just said. And it's the fact that you have a situation where she clearly wasn't concerned about searching certain things and then being found later. And so if she was getting these voices or these thoughts from her voices to kill her children or to strangle them, whatever it might've been. We'll just go with kill, right? You would think during that search history,

you would say something along the lines of how to kill your children. What does it mean if you start having voices to kill your children? That may be a search of, could I be a schizophrenic or symptoms of schizophrenia? And then finally, how to treat a sociopath. You would expect to see other searches there,

especially when she's searching how to kill her children you know maybe some indication of why she's searching how to kill her children there was none there was none so that is going to be very damning for her case i think this right here so far without a doubt is going to be it could you know we'll see what the rest of this episode says but it's going to be the thing that prosecution hangs their hat on for sure. There'll be other things. It'll be a totality. But this right here is, that whole search is going to be really tough to explain away. I agree. I agree. And listen, once again, we don't know what else she searched up, right? They haven't told us everything.

But based on how hard the prosecution is going against Lindsay, I expect that there's a lot more that they haven't revealed yet. A lot more. We're going to find out. So Dr. Paul Zeisel told the Daily Mail that Lindsay Clancy was extremely fatigued and in pain, stating, quote, she is flat as a board. She's wondering what is going on. There is not a lot of emoting, though she did shed tears yesterday during the court hearing, end quote. Zizel said that the flatness of Lindsay's demeanor could be caused by pain medication, psychotic medication, or

depression, but he also said that she is aware of who she is and who her children were. He also added that it's confusing to him how Lindsay ended up with a prescription list of 13 drugs over an eight-month period. He believes she was failed by the medical system, saying that this was not a normal amount of drugs and there was too many cooks in the kitchen. Lindsay's lawyer, Kevin Reddington, has asserted the same thing, claiming Lindsay was overmedicated and that Patrick Clancy had even gone to Lindsay's doctor begging for help, saying that Lindsay was being turned into a zombie. Reddington stated that he now has plans to argue that Lindsay lacked criminal responsibility because she had been involuntarily intoxicated. Now, when the Duxbury police chief stated

that Lindsay Clancy was physically recovering, Reddington pushed back, claiming it was a blatant untruth and that Lindsay was still in a hospital bed, unable to move. An attorney for the district attorney's office responded to Reddington's claims, saying, quote,

she can move. She is not paralyzed. She can move her legs. She can move her arms. She has been writing and being able to verbally communicate, end quote. This led to an argument between Kevin Reddington and the ADA, Jennifer Sprague, when the latter, Jennifer Sprague, described the knife found in Lindsay's bedroom, saying that it had been used to inflict superficial cuts and scratches on Lindsay's wrists and neck. Sprague said that investigators had found bloodstains on the outside of the windowsill, alleging that Lindsay had grabbed onto the window. So first Lindsay cut herself, and then she grabbed onto the windowsill and slid down the siding of the house.

Jennifer Sprague stated, quote, she did not jump, she did not hurl herself because there's blood on the exterior shingle going down, end quote. Kevin Reddington said that Lindsay's cuts were not superficial. He said he had visited the house and seen copious amounts of blood there, and the wounds to Lindsay's wrists were much deeper than scratches. He also claimed that Lindsay did jump from the second story window, saying, quote, She obviously hit the ground transecting the spine. She's not going to be fine.

She's permanently paralyzed. End quote. So this is kind of crazy because we've got the prosecution and the district attorney's office basically saying, listen, we don't believe that Lindsay intended to kill herself. She did not jump. She caught herself superficially and then held onto the windowsill and sort of like lowered herself down as much as she could before letting go, which can still cause,

depending on how she lands, injuries to her spine, right? If she landed on her feet, that would cause an injury to her spine. That would be very bad. If she landed on her back, she could also cause an injury to her spine. So just because she has spinal injury doesn't mean that she intended to kill herself, right? So the prosecution's basically saying that she killed her children and then tried to make it look like she tried to kill herself, but she didn't actually want to die. And this is very important. And now we have this whole thing where Kevin Reddington's been saying this whole time, Lindsay's paralyzed. She's going to be paralyzed forever. And the district attorney's office comes out and they're like, nah, she's not paralyzed.

She's fine. She can move her arms. She can move her legs. She ain't paralyzed. And I mean, who do we believe? I'm going to say that we believe the district attorney's office, who if what they were saying, I mean, it's a lawyer from the district attorney's office who's saying she's not paralyzed. She can move her legs.

And if they said that and that wasn't true, I believe they could be sued. You know, if they were putting out information like that, that was completely false. And Kevin Reddington, as Lindsay's attorney, would have a motive to make her seem more of a sympathetic figure and to make her seem more like frail and feeble and like, you know, harmed than she actually was. What do you make of this? Because it's crazy. Because Kevin Reddington's like, she know, harmed than she actually was. What do you make of this? Because it's crazy. Because Kevin Ridington's like, she's paralyzed forever. And the district attorney's office is

like, no, she's not. She's not even paralyzed right now. She's moving her legs and arms. She's fine. It goes back to that key word I was saying earlier, doesn't it? Interpretation. We're talking about medical history and it's still being interpreted by the two parties differently, right? One saying she can't walk, one saying she can. And then also one saying that the wounds on her body from the knife were superficial. The other saying they were deep. Again, it depends on what camp you fall into. And I think this case is going to be a battle of the medical doctors and it's going to be

their words and how compelling they are and what the jury decides to ultimately believe. Because as you're explaining it to us about what the, the DA, how they see it makes perfect sense, right? Oh my God, I realized what I just did. Or maybe she even thought about this prior to doing it where she's like, now I have to make it look like I'm, I feel bad about what I did. So let me do some superficial wounds. And you know what? I'm going to slide down the side of this house, and I'm going to fall out and pretend that I jumped to my death,

hoping that I don't get any serious injury. But now everyone feels bad for me because I'm a victim here as well. And obviously, the defense is saying the opposite. So yeah, this is a crazy case. And I can understand why so many people have strong opinions on it, but it's going to go down to the doctors. It really is. And I've said this before in other cases, sometimes the ultimate, the verdict is decided by how convincing the witnesses are. And I feel like the witness experts in this case are going to decide the outcome of this case.

Which doctor is going to get up there and be more convincing? That's who the jury is going to roll with on this one. They're not going to believe the lawyers because the lawyers both have some skin in the game. They're going to go with the doctors. So let me ask you this question. If I had told you this story, Lindsay Clancy took exercise bans and strangled her three small children to death. Guilty.

No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. And then she did not attempt to take her own life, would you have been more or less likely to believe that it was psychosis or some postpartum thing or some involuntary intoxication thing? Would you be more or less likely to believe that? That's such a hard question. Is it? It is for me because I've gone back and forth on this throughout this week because obviously you get different opinions on it. Okay, hold on. Let me go back then and ask you something. Remember last episode when I started

the episode and I told you the various reasons why a parent would commit filicide, why a parent would kill their own children. And one of them was, basically all of them were pretty bad, except for the one where it was like, okay, they have some irrational belief or some delusion that they have to remove themselves from the world. And so they altruistically take their children out with them so that A, their children don't have to live in the world without them. And so B, their children don't have to live in this cruel world. Other than that, the other

reasons were basically like to get back at a spouse or, you know, not because they don't want the kids. The kids are a burden. That was really the only one that would apply to Lindsay's case where it would be make her less culpable, right? That she had this and it involved taking herself out as well. So in my opinion, if you kill your kids for an altruistic purpose, like, oh, they shouldn't live in this cruel world without me, but you still want to remain in this cruel world. You just don't want them in it. That seems to be looking more like you just wanted to kill them because they were burdensome

to you and you were feeling resentful and you were just tired and didn't want to do it anymore. And less like, you know, I'm taking myself and my kids and we're getting out of here because it sucks here and they can't live here without me and I can't stay in this world and I can't leave them in this cold, cruel world alone. So we're all going. It seems more like nefarious, right? If you stay. For me, it's not like as black and white. I see a world where I'd have to evaluate every situation. So you could give me a scenario where this woman has a situation where her husband leaves the house, she kills her kids. And immediately after

killing her kids, she calls the police or she calls Patrick or she does something where she's like, oh my God, you have to get back here right now, Patrick. I completely blacked out. The kids are dead. I would want to understand that phone call. I'd want to hear it. I'd want to get the recording of the 911 to hear her reaction. Like, does this sound like a woman who just came out of this trance and is now seeing her children dead as if she walked into this crime scene as a different, you know, as a different person, not the killer. And I guess you'd have to evaluate that where it's like, oh my God, this woman truly had no idea what happened to these children. She's not even aware that they died at her hands. Again, that would all be open to your opinion based on whatever evidence we had to support her reaction after the fact. So it's not as simple as like, did she try

to kill herself or did she? Or didn't she? It would have to be other things. But I will say that if the prosecution is right and there was a conscious effort to stage a suicide attempt, well then clearly we don't have a case of psychosis here. This is a premeditation where the whole thing was thought out before doing it, including if you're in this camp, she got him out of the house intentionally because she couldn't overtake him. She wanted to kill the kids. Maybe the motive is she had enough of the kids. She still loved Patrick. She no longer wanted the children. They were too much of a burden. She felt like they were

creating the stress in her life that was ruining her own personal life and what she wanted to do. And she felt like by removing the children, she could get back to being who she was with her husband. So she got him out of the house, kills them. But obviously she knows that's not okay. She's in a mental state where she understands that's wrong and decides to try to frame it as this psychosis where she's so guilty from what she did or not even conscious of what she's doing still and kills herself, but does it in a way where it looks like she tried to kill herself, but she actually didn't. And yeah, in that case, no, because that's what I keep coming back to. I don't want to jump around too much, but it's like, what's the motive? What's the motive? Why would she do this? It's not financial. If there's no, you said we don't have all the information.

You're right in saying that, but was there an affair? If there's not that said we don't have all the information you're right in saying that but was there an affair if there's not that then what is it and the only thing i keep going back to is it seems like a lot of the issues she's having all correlate to her children whether it's the first one the second one the third one is there a point where she decided i'm having all these mental health issues now and it all stems from them. And maybe if I remove them, I remove these issues. That's the only thing I can come up with. Okay. So I was on the same page because I'm thinking like, okay, she's very young by the way. And I think that shocked a lot of people. What was she? 32, 33? Yep. Younger than us, unfortunately, right? Yep. Younger than us. And three children, three young children. And maybe before she has these children, she's a completely happy, young, carefree young woman. She's got a great marriage

with a man that she loves more than anything in the world. He loves her more than anything in the world. And then all of a sudden she's a mother to these three children. Hey, we can say one thing about Patrick. He's supportive. He is supportive. All the way through, right? Loyal, supportive, yes. That's for sure. Clearly loved her dearly and still does. So she's thinking, before I had these kids, I was fine.

I was happy. I had no mental health issues. And all of a sudden, I have so many things going on in my head. I don't even know who I am anymore. I don't recognize myself. And she's going through this for years. And finally, it boils down to the common denominator. It's the kids. That's why I'm feeling this way. This is too much. But I don't want to lose my husband. And I can't tell my husband, hey, I don't want to be a mom anymore. Like, I'm over this. It's causing me a great deal of stress and distress, anxiety, depression,

all these horrible things that I've never felt before. And I can tell you, after I had Bella, that's the way I was feeling. I was like, what the hell is going on with me? Well, I have never felt like this before in my life. And, you know, panic attacks when I've never had a panic attack. I have to admit to you that in my youth, because, you know, panic attacks when I'd never had a panic attack. I have to admit to you that in my youth, because I'm a very resilient, strong person, and I had never had a panic attack or anything. And I almost was like, when I saw somebody have a panic attack or say they had it,

I was like, come on, it can't be that bad, right? Like, because you've never been through it before. And when I finally did have my first one, I was after Bella, I was like, cause you never been through it before. And when I finally did have my first one, I was after Bella, I was like, I thought I was dying, dude. Like I thought I was dying. I thought I was having a heart attack. I was sweating. I couldn't breathe. Nothing made it better. And for the first time in my life, I was like, wow, um, this is real. This is absolutely real. So there were moments when I was like, but I understood why it was happening. I understood it was my hormones and changes and things. But I was like, damn, like this is something I have never experienced before.

I don't really know how to handle this. And I just want to feel better. I would do anything to feel better. And fortunately, it did not get to the point where I was like, well, it's my job. Because in my head, you know, like, obviously, I know, how am I going to go on after that? Like, that's not gonna help my depression, you know. But I think Lindsay was going through a lot more. And I think she was on a lot of medications, a lot of medications. So you're starting with your normal average brain chemistry as it always has

been. You add in all these hormones from pregnancy and childbirth, and this is changing your brain structure, changing the way that things are firing in your brain. And then you add all of these different freaking medications, which are once again, changing what's happening in your brain. And was it a perfect storm for her to just be like, I'm done. I have to remove the factors in my life that are causing me to feel like I don't even know who the hell I am anymore. And I don't even know which way is up anymore. And she thinks if I kill my children, my husband will never forgive me. But if I kill my children and then try to kill myself and then say it was in a moment

of psychosis, I know Patrick. He might be able to understand that. We might be able to move on. I don't know. It's just a speculation. But if the prosecution can prove in some definitive way through internet searches or something like that, that Lindsay actually did stage her own attempted suicide, that's going to be a game changer. It looks like it's very likely that Kevin Reddington will argue that Lindsay was suffering from some sort of postpartum issue. Like I said, he hasn't signified or specified that it's postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis. That has not been explicitly said by Kevin Reddington. So he's going to say she was suffering from some sort of

postpartum issue combined with being overmedicated, and the opinion on how successful this defense will be has been split. Lisa Cosgrove is a clinical psychologist and a professor at the University of Massachusetts, and although she could not and did not speak about Lindsay's case specifically, Cosgrove did say that too often, something called irrational polypharmacy happens. Lisa Cosgrove said, quote, psychiatric medications such as these are unfortunately not monitored carefully enough, and there is a tendency in the US to add another agent

to address the side effects of the first one or because the first one isn't working, and thus we too often see irrational polypharmacy, end quote. So the term polypharmacy is when two or more medications are used to treat the same condition. And this includes the use of two or more drugs in the same chemical class or the use of two or more drugs with the same or similar pharmacological actions to treat different conditions, such as a benzo for anxiety and another benzo for insomnia. Using one medication to treat the side effects of another

would also be considered polypharmacy. Now, according to the American Psychiatric Association, quote, obviously in many instances, management with multiple medications is necessary and constitutes rational polypharmacy. Certain polypharmacy may be unavoidable and necessary for patients suffering from severe chronic conditions. However, irrational polypharmacy occurs too frequently. Examples include the use of several benzodiazepines or several antipsychotics at the same time. End quote. Now, reportedly, there are several different causes of polypharmacy,

and the first is a combination of fear and laziness. So a patient is unstable or doing poorly. The clinician will add another medication and maybe it helps the patient a little bit. Since the patient's still not doing completely well, the clinician's afraid to stop any of the drugs, so the patient's list of medications gets longer and longer. A second cause of irrational polypharmacy

is what they call sloppy diagnosis. For example, a patient with paranoia whose auditory hallucinations increase at night may describe their fears as nervousness or insomnia and receive a prescription for benzodiazepines rather than having their dose of antipsychotics adjusted. Similarly, a patient who exhibits psychotic agitation may receive valproate or lithium rather than an adjustment of the dosage of antipsychotic becauseotic agitation may receive valproate or lithium rather than an adjustment of the dosage of antipsychotic because the agitation is presumed to be due to a schizoaffective mania. Evident in these scenarios is the need to gather detailed information about the patient's

symptoms and the symptoms' relationship to the primary illness as a whole, rather than simply treating each individual symptom. So let's take a quick look at the medications that Lindsay was allegedly prescribed in this eight-month period. But before we do, let's take our last break. So Lindsay was on Zolpidem, which is the generic version of Ambien, and it's prescribed to patients who suffer from insomnia and have difficulty sleeping. It belongs to a class of medicines called sedative hypnotics or sedative hypnotics, and taking some other medications can increase the chances of side effects. And you're supposed to inform your doctor if you are on any of these other medications

before taking Zolpidem. Now on that list are medications to treat schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, medicines to treat depression, medicines to calm or reduce anxiety. But the side effects that they're worried about increasing are basically just drowsiness, you know, anything that they're just worried about exacerbating what the Ambien would already be doing. And that's what these other medications would do. Lindsay was also prescribed Klonopin, which is a benzodiazepine used to treat certain seizure disorders as well as panic disorders. Klonopin is often given to people who have very high anxiety.

I have taken Klonopin before. There are a lot of dangers with Klonopin. It's known to be highly addictive. It slows the respiratory system and some people on it do have thoughts of suicide. We also have diazepam, which is the generic version of Valium, which is used to treat anxiety. It's also a benzo. Next we have Fluxetine, which is the generic version of Prozac, which is used to treat depression and it's an SSRI, which is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Next, we have Lamictal, which is an anticonvulsant that's also used to delay mood episodes in adults with bipolar disorder. Once again, some people do have suicidal thoughts on this medication.

Next, we have Lorazepam, that's the generic version of Ativan, which is also a benzo meant to produce a calming effect. We also have Remeron, which is another antidepressant, and that's thought to positively affect communication between nerve cells in the central nervous system and or restore chemical balance in the brain. It is not an SSRI, but once again, it does cause some people to have thoughts about suicide when first taking it, which I find this to be the truth with a lot of these psychiatric medications. And I don't think it's common. It's not like everybody who takes these is going to have thoughts of hurting themselves or others, but it kind of does.

It's a little confusing. It's a little counterproductive that so many of these psychotic medications have the potential side effect of increasing or causing suicidal thoughts and ideations in the patients. It's just strange. I agree with that, but I also say you haven't said anything to me yet as I'm writing these down that's showing a history of wanting to kill your significant other, your children, based on these medications. I'm seeing a lot of potential scenarios where there's self-harm, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot of symptoms of homicidal tendencies, which I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I'm not seeing that.

So I think that's what's really important here. Well, we also have Seroquel, which is meant to treat schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It also balances dopamine and serotonin in your brain, and it is an antipsychotic. Now, patients and their families are told to watch out for new or worsening depression or thoughts of suicide, and they should also watch out for sudden or severe changes in feelings,

such as feeling anxious, agitated, panicky, hostile, aggressive, imp anxious, agitated, panicky, hostile, aggressive, impulsive, severely restless, overly excited, hyperactive, or have trouble sleeping. Next, we have Zoloft, which is an SSRI, is used to treat depression and panic attacks, as well as other things such as PTSD and OCD. Now, at one point, Lindsay was also prescribed Trazodone, which is an antidepressant used for treating major depressive disorders, but because of its sedating effects, it has been found to be better used as a sleep aid rather than an antidepressant.

She also had hydroxine, which can be used alone or with other medications to relieve anxiety and tension, and she had amitriptyline, which is a tricyclic antidepressant, and it works by increasing the amounts of natural substances in the brain that are needed to maintain mental balance. And lastly, we have buciprone, which is used to treat anxiety disorders or symptoms of anxiety, and it also works by changing the amounts of certain natural substances in the brain. Now, normally, I wouldn't say that this is a ridiculous amount of medications because we do know for a fact that Lindsay was not taking them all at once. At least she wasn't supposed to be. She was trying one thing and when that didn't work, she was prescribed something else along a similar vein. However, if what her lawyer is saying is true and all of these medications were prescribed

to her within an eight-month period, that is concerning. Now I say this again, if what her lawyer is saying is true, we do not have access to Lindsay's medical records, we don't know. Like I said, she could have had medications left over from previous pregnancies, previous issues with anxiety and depression, and maybe she was like just testing herself. She was a nurse. So maybe she thought she was qualified enough to do that with herself. We don't know. This is what he claims. He also claims that she's completely paralyzed and she forever will be. And the district attorney's office is like, no, that's not true. So if what he's saying is true and all of these medications are prescribed to her in an eight month period, it's an issue. And not an issue that would make you

kill your three children, but just an issue and a statement about the place we are with medicine, because that's a lot of psychiatric medications to be taking in that short of a time. No, listen, I completely agree. And I just want to reiterate the fact that first off, we don't know if she was taking them all at the same time. And if she, we don't even know if she was prescribed to take them all at the same time. It doesn't sound like that, but as you said, she could be experimenting with different combinations on her own to try to find something that works. But still, just to go back to what I said a few minutes ago, I would have to see, let's

just assume for the sake of this argument, she is taking all those medications, even though she's not supposed to be. I would want to see case studies that show other examples where individuals, male or female, postpartum or not, have taken this combination of drugs and it's resulted in them acting violent towards others. I would want to see that. And I would want to see more than one case, not just some outlier. I would want to see evidence through medical writings and research that show, yeah, taken in combination, even though we wouldn't prescribe it that way, it could lead to homicidal

thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, okay, look at it. Eight months, right? So this is when I called this person that I know, who I happen to know, has struggled with anxiety, depression, and has been on many of these same medications. So I talked to this person, and I was like, and I didn't tell him anything about the case. I didn't tell him anything. I just said, here is the medications she was prescribed. This is allegedly the amount of time, the time period she was prescribed them. What would the reason for that be? And he said, listen, each time you change a medication or a dose, especially with antidepressants

and antipsychotics, it takes roughly six to eight weeks to see that change in effect. So was Lindsay really being given the time with each medication before she was being given something else? Was she being given the time with each new medication to see if a change happened or if something needed to be adjusted or maybe the dose could have been adjusted instead of another medicine being thrown at her? We don't really know. And many of these medications do need a certain wean-off period, meaning it can be dangerous to just stop them, cold turkey. So was she taking lower doses of certain things as she was being given more of other things, or was she just

stopping the one thing and starting another thing? These are things that are relevant. They are going to provide the context that we need. Now, Patrick Clancy said that Lindsay was never taking more than three to four of these prescriptions at once. And according to her notebooks, that is also what she claimed. And he said she was taking them as prescribed. What if she still had leftover pills from meds she was being taken off of? And then she was taking more than three or four at a time. Now, wouldn't she still be responsible for that if she was taking the medication in a

way that wasn't prescribed? Would that be a failure of the medical system if Lindsay herself decided like, okay, I've got the Seroquel and Zoloft and this, but I also am going to throw a couple of benzos in there just to see if it makes a difference. I still think that that would mean she was responsible for what happened in the end. You know, if her doctor said, don't take this anymore, instead take this. And she was like, let me just try both. That might be an issue that she's still responsible for. Well, think about this for a second. If someone has taken multiple medications and a doctor

specifically says, hey, you're off this one, I want you to try this one. And for some reason, the patient disregards that and takes multiple medications and dies from it. The doctors aren't held responsible for that. The patients aren't doing as prescribed. So yeah, I would agree with you. This is the responsibility of the patient when they're home to do as instructed on the bags that you get with the medication. It's pretty self-explanatory. They tell you exactly what to take and when to take it. And according to her notebooks, this was not the case. She wasn't taking old medications or she wasn't taking them not as prescribed. And being a nurse, she probably knew better, right?

Like she would know and understand the dangers of doing this as far as any negative interactions that these meds could have with each other. She would know that. So in the house, police found four prescription medicine bottles, the amitriptyline, the diazepam, five milligrams, diazepam, two milligrams, and trazodone. And these four prescriptions were all filled within two weeks of the murders. But we do know also that she had Seroquel in her system. So was she actively taking it? Was she actively being prescribed it?

There's so many unknowns still. At the time of her hospitalization, after she killed her children, Lindsay had seven substances in her blood, according to ADA Jennifer Sprague, a mix of antipsychotics and antidepressants. But as Jennifer Sprague pointed out, it looked as if she took at least two of these, the Seroquel and the Remeron, an antipsychotic and antidepressant, right after

she committed the murders. And the only drug found in her system that was not at therapeutic levels, which means medically helpful and not harmful, was the Seroquel, which is an antipsychotic. However, I will also say some of these are pretty heavy-duty medications. They're hard to get. Like, you can't just stroll into a doctor's office and start demanding Klonopin and Valium. There has to be a real need for it. I mean, there's been multiple times where, and I have true anxiety disorders, where it's been very difficult to even get a short-term prescription for Klonopin. And clearly, more than one medical professional felt that Lindsay was going through it badly enough for her to be given these prescriptions. But does that mean that she was on so many medications,

it caused her or assisted her in being unable to understand that what she was doing to her children was wrong? Because at the end of the day, that's what it's going to come down to, right? We know she killed the kids. There's no question there. What it's going to come down to is, did she know that what she was doing in the moment that she was doing it was wrong? That is what's going to be argued in court. Yeah, agreed.

So Dr. Nancy Byatt, who's a perinatal mental health expert at the University of Massachusetts Medical School, stated, quote, often when multiple medications are used, it speaks to the severity of the illness, end quote. But she also went on to say, quote, there is no evidence to suggest that using multiple medications increases the risk of tragic outcomes. What we do know increases that risk is under treatment, end quote. So what she's saying here is as far as she knows, and she's a perinatal mental health expert at the University of

Massachusetts Medical School, she has never seen real negative outcomes of having, you know, multiple medications make you kill somebody. But what she would say is if you are going through something psychologically that is severe enough to get these medications, what will increase a negative outcome and a tragic outcome is you not being given the medications that you need, which makes a lot of sense. And I saw a couple comments of people saying like, it really is kind of like a slippery slope here with the defense arguing that she was overmedicated because this is what makes people who are going through psychological issues afraid to seek help and take these medications, which in most cases makes them

better, right? So it's a slippery slope. Yeah. And I would even say it makes doctors hesitant about prescribing certain things because these are circumstances. So people who genuinely need it, the doctors are more apprehensive about it. But this does answer a question I had earlier that I had posed to you and to our audience, which is I would need to see case study that shows the increase in medication directly correlates to the increase in homicidal thoughts. And what Dr. Byatt's saying here is that's not the case. In fact, it's the opposite where if they're under-prescribed, they're more likely to become violent and maybe do something to themselves or someone else. That's what I'm reading between those lines. Yes, that is what I read as well. And Dr. Byatt also spoke about how one in seven women experience depression during pregnancy and in the postpartum period. And she said that many new mothers do not seek treatment because of the stigma or out of fear that their children could be taken away from them,

even though a psychiatric illness is not a valid reason to remove a child from a parent and a doctor would not be required to report an illness to child welfare agencies unless there was a concern of imminent harm. Now, according to the MassGen Hospital Postpartum Psychosis Project, which remember is the same hospital that Lindsay worked at, about one to two in 1,000 women will experience postpartum psychosis. And Dr. Byatt said, quote, a lot of postpartum psychosis involves people who may have altruistic delusions.

They may think I need to remove myself from the baby and the baby from the world because the world is better off without us. Or they think they are saving their baby from a life of torture. Their brains are hijacked by a serious illness, end quote. Here's what the NHS tells us about postpartum psychosis. They say symptoms will usually start

within the first two weeks of giving birth, often within hours or days. More rarely, they can develop several weeks They say symptoms will usually start within the first two weeks of giving birth, often within hours or days. More rarely, they can develop several weeks after the baby is born. Symptoms can include hallucinations, seeing, hearing, smelling, or feeling things that aren't there, delusions, suspicions, fears, thoughts, or beliefs that are unlikely to be true, mania, feeling very high or overactive, talking or thinking too much or too quickly, feeling restless, reduced inhibitions, a low mood, showing signs of depression, being withdrawn,

tearful, lacking energy, loss of appetite, anxiety, agitation, or trouble sleeping, and sometimes a mixture of both a manic mood and a low mood or rapidly changing moods. The most severe symptoms tend to last 2 to 12 weeks and can take 6 to 12 months to recover completely from. Now, let me ask you, what did you hear from the timeline of when postpartum psychosis starts, when it reaches its peak, etc.? Well, what I heard was a few hours to a few days, and I think you said rarely within several weeks. So very short period of time in relation to when the birth occurs, not this amount of duration. I'm sure it's possible. But once again, we have seen people continue to say this about Lindsay Clancy. Well, it's possible she could have had command to elucidate. It's possible.

I hate when they do this in a legal setting because anything is possible. You know, there's always the exception to the rule. There's always that like small, small, small percentage of people who don't react to things in the same way as the majority of the population. So it's possible, right? But is that what happened here? Because as the NHS says, and everybody's like, do your research about postpartum psychosis.

I did. I did. Okay. It doesn't really sound like what Lindsay was going through. Symptoms will usually start within the first two weeks of giving birth, often within hours or days. More rarely, they can develop several weeks after the baby is born. Not more rarely, they can develop several months after the baby is born. More rarely, they can develop several weeks after the baby is born. So either Lindsay's been suffering from postpartum psychosis since, you know, within the weeks or even month after her last child, Callan, was born. And she just didn't tell anybody that she was hearing

voices and she didn't write about them anywhere. And she sought all this mental health help, but didn't tell her treating physicians, the most important thing. Or she got this dose of postpartum psychosis almost eight months after her last child was born, which is super rare. And I will also say that many women who suffer from postpartum psychosis don't have the amount of support that it appeared that Lindsay did. It looks like Lindsay had a lot of support from her medical care professionals as well as from her family. Like most women who have postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis, they don't even seek medical help because they're embarrassed. Like they don't do it. They're not aware. She was a labor and delivery nurse. So she was aware that things weren't right with her. And

that's why she was seeking all of this help and going to several different clinicians, several different psychiatrists, several different facilities to seek the help that she needed. So she was actually going and getting help, seeing psychiatrists, seeing people. Many family members came over and stayed at the house with Lindsay in the months after Callan was born so that they could help and make sure she wasn't too overwhelmed. Patrick made the decision to work from home so that he was there to provide support and help if she needed it. She was on medications.

She was talking to friends. She mentioned a friend, Sue, in her notebooks that she was going to get help from. She was getting support from Facebook groups filled with women experiencing the same thing. She had a lot more support and was doing a lot more to address her issues than many women with postpartum issues have and do,

which is a good thing. I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying like, oh, she should have known. Like, I'm not saying that, oh, nothing should have gone wrong because she had more support. I'm just saying it was a good thing. She recognized what was happening and she went and she got support and she asked for help. But as you heard the ADA, Jennifer Sprague said,

Lindsay had been left alone with her children more than once before this day. So was she going through postpartum psychosis this whole time? And then she just didn't listen to the voices then? I'm not sure. Callen was seven months old at the time that Lindsay's lawyer claims she snapped and had a moment of psychosis. That doesn't really fit the timeline for the condition of postpartum psychosis.

And I think most of us can admit that there is evidence of some premeditation, especially Lindsay googling ways to kill, wondering if a sociopath could be treated. I also read many comments which referred to Patrick Clancy asserting that on the day his three children were stolen from him, Lindsay was having one of her best days ever. And the comments that were talking to us, you and I, in our YouTube comment section, they basically said, well, what it sounds like is she was having a good day because she had already decided what she was going to do. And she felt at peace when she made that decision, which further speaks to premeditation and not a snap moment of psychosis or some involuntary intoxication that caused psychosis.

I saw that comment and a lot of people... There was a lot of them, a lot of comments, yeah. There was a lot. A lot of people engaged with that specific comment where they gave it a like, and obviously that usually means that there's a lot of people that agree with it. And Lindsay has pleaded not guilty to the murders of her three children, and she has been moved to Tewksbury State Hospital, where a judge has ordered her to remain for six months while she receives extensive medical care. But I do want to bring us back to the reason that we're here, because of the three little people who are no longer here with us, Cora, Dawson, and Callan

Clancy. These children died in the most horrific way. The last moments of their lives were truly a nightmare, brought on to them at the hands of their mother, who they loved more than anyone else in the world. Law enforcement needed to request 11 separate search warrants in this case. And so there's hundreds of pages of supporting evidence for the needs of these warrants. And 11 times I had to read what had happened to these three children. They had bruising on their legs and arms. They had ligature marks around their necks. And for some reason, three-year-old Dawson had gotten it the worst. Dawson showed more physical signs and more damage from the strangulation than his siblings,

including more severe bruising and more discoloration around his face and neck. ADA Jennifer Sprague said that Dawson, who remember, was three. He either fought back more than Cora and Callen, or Lindsay just strangled him harder. And remember that Dawson was the one who was found alone in his father's office and not with Cora and Callen. When Officer Cahill walked in on Patrick Clancy in the basement, crying over his dead children, he said that he observed blood on the face and hand of Cora. So once again, not specifically saying why there was blood on Cora, but it's likely because I researched why there would be blood on the hand and face of somebody who was strangled to death in this way. It's likely from petechia and sometimes their eyes can bleed. Sometimes their eyes can bleed because they're being strangled so hard.

Yes. Petechial hemorrhaging. And it's extensive. You usually have those almost a bloodshot in the eyes, but it can, those blood vessels burst. And yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty self-explanatory. The more pressure that's used for strangulation, the bigger that these petechia are and the more they bleed. So that tells you something. Yeah, that's how these kids died. The last face they saw was the face of their mother who was killing them. And like I said, this was not a quick process. This was not something that happened within seconds. They didn't realize what was going on.

This took several minutes. And it's horrific. And so I understand if you want to feel sympathy for Lindsay. And I really wish that there had been more sympathy for Callan Dawson and Cora in the comments. There's a lot of people in there defending Lindsay blindly, by the way, because it's okay for you to think it's possible that she had something going on, but you do not know. So to defend her to such an extent, to the point where you're like, y'all are ignorant, you don't know even what you're talking about, to defend her to that extent, but not having a moment in your heart to step in and defend these

three children who did nothing to anyone, who did not deserve this, who did not deserve to die, who certainly didn't deserve to die in this way at the hands of their mother, to not find it in your heart to even have a few words or a sentence for them when you could write paragraphs about Lindsay. That's sad for me. So I wanted to remind you of these three children. These three children is why we're here. hard on this case because what they found in Lindsay's belongings, including her notebooks and her electronics, highly and strongly suggest premeditation. So I saw and read many interviews from legal experts who are not involved in this case, like they're not actively, you know, on the prosecution or defense, but they're looking at it and they're like, based on what we see the

prosecution doing, because, you know, they're going real hard on this woman. And we don't think that they would go this hard if they thought that there was a strong chance that she was suffering from psychosis or if she was suffering from like a moment of psychosis or if she was being involuntarily intoxicated. The way that they're pursuing this now makes us feel that whatever they found in Lindsay's phones and tablets, laptops, her notebooks, so strongly suggests premeditation that they are very confident that they can witness. And that is something interesting to think about. But for now, we're just going to have to wait and see, because as I said, Lindsay's going to be in the hospital for six months receiving treatment, which I think in arguably one way or the other, she desperately needs.

No, very well said. Is there any final thoughts from you? Because I have a lot to go over. I know usually I go first, but I want to go through this and it's going to take me a little bit. Is there anything else that you want to weigh in? You're obviously the storyteller here. Anything else?

No, I just want everyone to remember Cora, Callan, and Dawson. Remember them, please. And this wasn't part of my little thing I wanted to say here, but I will say to the commenters, and I say this because I come from a place of understanding because I've done it myself as an investigator. Sometimes when we're looking at a case like this, because it elicits so many emotions. It's easy, or I should say, it's hard not to relate to the incident in some way, whether you're someone yourself who's experienced postpartum depression or psychosis or someone you're close to has. And when you hear us criticizing a person who could potentially have experienced one or both of those things, you become defensive because you're relating it to your own experiences or the person that you

care about. I'd like to go out on a limb and say probably most of you, if not all of you that are watching this channel, if you've experienced that, have not gone on to kill someone you care about, or more than likely you may not be with us right now, you'd be in prison, or even the person you love. Maybe you have, maybe you're an outlier and you have, but for most of you, I would ask, because again, I've done it as an investigator myself where I have to step back. You can't relate these crimes to you. You can't relate these potential suspects to you because you're not them. And although they may have some similar experiences as you, whether it's medical issues or even life experiences, how they got to that point growing up in poverty. It's easy to find connections with them and feel

sorry for them. You have to step back and realize that we're not criticizing everyone who has postpartum depression or psychosis. We're criticizing Lindsay and the specifics surrounding her case. I just wanted to say that about the commenters. That's not, I see where you're coming from and I see how, I see how that can happen where you become defensive and you have this strong adverse reaction to what we say, because again, you're not looking at it from the perspective of Lindsay, but more so the perspective of yourself or someone you care about. So that being said, my final thoughts on this, and I've written them all down and I'll try to be as succinct as I can be because I think they're important. So if you're to believe that this was an episodic thing where this is a case of psychosis, there's a few things you have to disregard first. So let's go

over the things you have to disregard or find a way to rule out. You have to disregard the positive reports from her own journal entries about her own self-awareness is where she stood, where she basically didn't have anything to indicate she was going down this road. There was some things about anxiety, whatever, but you'd have to disregard her own self-assessments about herself being in a good place. You'd also have to disregard the positive reports from Patrick, who it seems very clear to me they were super close. They were open with each other. And they had an ongoing conversation about her mental stability, where she was. And as he stated, it was all positive reports from there other than some anxiety, something like that. So you'd have to disregard that as well.

You'd also have to disregard the prior searches regarding killing of children and also how to treat a sociopath. Is it treatable? Because again, that was days before, I believe you said four days before. So you're going to have to disregard that because again, I think we've established a moment, we had a little joke about it, but psychosis wasn't going on for four days straight, right? This wasn't this whole thing. And then you'll also have to disregard the immediate Google search, you know, as far as distance to the restaurant and consciously asking Patrick to leave the home, leaving her alone with the children. You'll have to disregard that. And then finally, you'll have to disregard the fact that this woman was able to kill these three children. None of them survived and yet wasn't able to kill herself. So a failed suicide

attempt, whether you believe it was an actual suicide attempt or not, I won't even go there. Either way, if her intention was to kill herself, she failed. But coincidentally, she didn't fail with any of the children, unfortunately. So if you're able to disregard all of that, this is what you have to believe. You'd have to believe that she took a combination of medications that led to an enhanced level of homicidal thoughts, even though from what we know on the surface, there's no medical data that supports that the combination of those medications would lead to homicidal thoughts. So she'd be an outlier there. You'd have to believe that she had a postpartum psychosis episode eight months after her last child was born,

even though medical data has stated, or at least from one of the experts, that most of the time these psychosis episodes can occur hours, days, or maybe a few weeks after it happened. So she's an outlier there. You'd have to believe that the psychotic episode, even though it happened eight months later, that it occurred exactly when Patrick was leaving. She didn't have any indication it was going to happen before, but once he leaves the house, this psychotic episode happens directly during that duration. And finally, you have to, we didn't talk about this a lot, but you would also have

to be under the belief that this psychotic episode, which I would believe would happen in the moment, not only resulted in the death of one child where she's off in the bathtub or outside with one child and she kills them in that moment, you'd have to believe that the psychotic episode led her to kill all three children. I don't know if they were together or separate, but they weren't found in the same rooms. They were found in the same rooms. They were found in the same basement, but in different parts of the basement. Cora and Dawson were right next to each other.

Callan was in Patrick's office. The other room, right? So they weren't lined up. So there's some little bit of spacing there. You'd have to believe that the psychotic episode also occurred where she was in such a fit of rage that she killed all three children. So for me, leaving that, again, the things you would have to disregard, the things you would have to believe, as I've said throughout this episode, this is a case that's going to be a battle of the experts where both sides, medical professionals, are going to give their testimony

as far as what they think was going on in her mind at the time of the incident. And also, what does the medical data show us from previous incidents? You can't just go in there and say, you know what, it's never happened before, but we believe it happened here. And ultimately, I think that's what will decide this case.

However, I know not all of us agree, but I'd like to think that if we're all putting our detective caps on right now, based on what has been laid out to us over the last two episodes, if any one of you were the investigator on this case, based on the search history, based on the medical data that suggests this wouldn't happen, based on her positive reports, based on Patrick's positive reports, based on the circumstances surrounding the specific incident, I would like to think that each and every one of you would feel more than comfortable arresting this woman for three counts of murder and allowing a jury of her peers to decide whether or not she was in the right state of mind when it occurred.

I don't think anyone would see the facts of this case and say, yeah, no, this is a clear case of psychosis. This woman obviously didn't mean to do this. There's some questionable behavior here. And I would absolutely charge her. I would arrest her as a detective and as a prosecuting attorney, I would charge her with the murder and we will let a jury decide. And I would arrest her as a detective. And as a prosecuting attorney, I would charge her with the murder and we will let a jury decide. And I would feel more than confident in this case based on those circumstances. That's the thing, right? That's why I don't understand. Well, I do understand the emotion behind it. There's emotion behind it on both ends. There's emotion behind it for us because we have kids and we hate to see anything bad happen to kids. Of course. That was my immediate reaction. But there's emotion behind it for people who have gone through something similar

where it's like they don't want to be kind of like lumped in all and generalized. And that's not what we're doing with Lindsay. We're not generalizing. That's the point. You don't know if she had postpartum psychosis. You can't defend her as if she did. You have to say it was a potential. It's possible. And that this may have been a factor, but that's going to be for the lawyers to argue and a jury to decide. At the end of the day, I saw many of your stories in the comment section, many of your stories, and many of your stories, oh, broke my heart, broke my heart, and it really made me feel a lot of things. What I will say, though, is not one of your stories ended with you murdering your children

or anyone else. So you are all living proof that you can go through hell, actual literal hell in your own head, and come out the other end in one piece intact. So where you relate to Lindsay because you feel that she may have experienced something similar, once again, you do not know that she did or not. You feel for her because you relate to her because she may have experienced something similar, and you know how it had you at a chokehold and you know that you just at times probably felt like you were never going to be the same and you would never recover, but you did. And many, I would say most

people do get through these things without murdering their children. So there is a place to come from as a woman and as someone who's gone through something similar, there's a place to come from and say, if she was going through this, I really feel for her. But we do not know enough yet to stand up and say, this woman had postpartum psychosis. She's absolutely not to blame. And I cannot believe you guys are coming for her like this. There's not a place to stand on that yet. That's all. That's all.

And I hope everybody is staying healthy out there and anybody who's currently going like this. There's not a place to stand on that yet. That's all. That's all. And I hope everybody is staying healthy out there and anybody who's currently going through this. Gets the help they need for sure. And I think in that same vein, my final thought, that visceral reaction that I had initially to this case is because although I understand the difference between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, and we're more talking about the potential postpartum psychosis, if I haven't made it clear already, my personal opinion is I don't believe she experienced some psychotic episode. I think this was premeditated and I think she should be held to the highest extent of the law and we'll go from there. That's my opinion.

To me, there's too much here that indicates it was something other than a psychotic episode, which is why I reacted the way I did. But I will say this. My opinion is as valuable as everybody in the comments. We're all entitled to them. What's that saying? Everybody has an asshole, you know? Opinions are like assholes.

Everyone has one. There you go. There you go. That's right. And I am also kind of, it's hard, man. I'm straddling. I'm straddling because there is empathy. By the way, That's right. And I am also kind of, it's hard, man. I'm straddling. I'm straddling because there is empathy. By the way, that's okay. There's empathy in me for anybody who goes through this, right? So it's like, I'm sitting here and I'm like, damn, I don't want to be like

ripping this woman a new one if she actually was like in the throes of this crisis. But at the same time, there's enough evidence that there's enough reasonable doubt for me to say that she wasn't. She wasn't going through something that she couldn't have controlled, that she wasn't getting help for, and that was inescapable for her. And that's where I'm stuck. And what you said there is important, right? Because she is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, and it's on the prosecution to prove guilt, not the defense to prove innocence. So what's important here, and I'm glad you said that phrase, is for the defense to mount a defense that would rise to a level where the jury finds reasonable doubt in the fact that this was a premeditated murder. The question we will find

over the next weeks and months is if the defense has put forward enough that allows a jury to believe that there's enough reasonable doubt there to suggest that she intended on killing these children at the time when it occurred. And we'll see what the defense is. We'll see how it goes. We'll obviously stay updated on it. It's a fascinating case, and it will be a case that sets a precedent going forward because it seems like this isn't a common occurrence among the medical field where someone's on multiple medications or experiencing this and ends up killing their children. So it'll be interesting to see how this case is decided because it could decide how defenses are mounted in the future in cases similar to this. And I mean, there have been cases similar to this. Last week when I was talking about Susan Smith, it wasn't Susan Smith I was talking about,

it was Andrea Yates. She drowned her children. A lot of people mentioned that in the comments. Drawn her children in the bathtub. She went to prison. Susan Smith went to prison. Liana Carrillo is another one that I would say, I don't know if we addressed it at the time.

Lilliana Carrillo. Yeah, we talked about her last week. She was in the bathtub as well we covered that case i don't think we mentioned psychosis then but i would argue based on what i now know about psychosis we did we did talk about postpartum psychosis yeah that was one of the first episodes we covered i would say based on the facts as i remember in that case much more indicative of a psychotic at break much more in line with it she was experiencing some really bad stuff beforehand. Beforehand, yeah. And then it just elevated.

So I would say much more in line. If you told me that case, I'm like, I get it. I still don't necessarily, I feel bad for her in a sense that it occurred in the way it did, but I still, you know, it is what it is. But this case, again, it's a lot more questionable. So I think we just got to hear from you guys.

This is the ending of it here. We want to hear your thoughts, your opinions. I thought the conversations in the comments were pretty good. Let's hope we keep it that way. Let's voice our opinions as dissenting or supporting. Give your reasoning behind it. That's the point of the comment section is to kind of weigh in on your thoughts about it. We want to hear your thoughts. We read the comments. But obviously, like you said, most important thing here is we lost three beautiful children and we're never getting them back. So that's the people that we're going to keep in our thoughts and prayers. And obviously our thoughts and prayers are with Patrick and his family as well. And also Lindsay's family, you know, her parents and her other, uh, other relatives,

this has affected a whole entire family, a whole entire community. So we're thinking of everyone in this situation and we hope that whatever happens here, they're able to move on with their lives and find some semblance in all of this and make something positive out of it. Seems like Patrick might have some things in line based on the kids and what he might do going forward.

We'll see how it all unfolds. Any final words from you, Stephanie? Please just remember these three kids, okay? based on the kids and what he might do going forward. We'll see how it all unfolds. Any final words from you, Stephanie? Please just remember these three kids, okay? Like keep them in mind. At the end of the day, I want that to be your last thought when you leave this video. I want this to be your last thought.

Cora, Callan, Dawson, I want them to be in your mind. Please, that's all I ask. That's right, guys. Give your kids an extra kiss and hug tonight. That's what's really important. And just a heads up, there is no episode next week. That was our scheduled week off. We will not be here next week. So again, no Crime Weekly episode next week, but we will be back the following week after that. I believe it's going to be the week

after Christmas that we'll be back and we have a new series that we're starting. We're not going to say it right now. We already know what it is. It's a great case. But again, just for you, all of you guys who are listening or watching, there will be no episode next week. So everyone stay safe out there. Have a good holiday.

We'll see you soon. Good night. Bye.