Crime Weekly - S3 Ep192: Piketon Massacre: And Then There Was One (Part 5)

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Piketon is a small town in Southern Ohio, 90 miles east of Cincinnati with a population of just over 2000 people. It’s a salt-of-the-earth type of place, nestled in the heart of Appalachia, where many families can trace their lineage back generations. Everyone knows everyone, no one is a stranger, and when someone is in need all they have to do is turn to their neighbor. Bad things happen everywhere, even in small, tight-knit towns, but in April of 2016 something happened that no one had ever seen before, and it shook them to their core. Eight members of one family, in four separate locations, all murdered execution-style at the same time; it was a crime that most people only experience through movies, but the members of this quiet, hardworking town would soon find themselves thrust into the national spotlight, unwillingly living through a real life murder mystery and mourning a family who had been a fixture in the community. Use code CRIMEWEEKLY at www.CrimeCon.com for a discount on your CrimeCon 2024 Nashville tickets! Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50 - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY50 for 50% off! 2. TalkSpace.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code SPACE80 for $80 off your first month! 3. Zocdoc.com/CrimeWeekly - Download the Zocdoc app for FREE! 4. Prose.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 50% off your first subscription and a FREE in-depth hair consultation!

Bettering your business takes working with the best. With the James Hardy Alliance, you gain access to leads, training, networking, and support from the number one brand of siding in North America. Achieve new levels of success by joining the James Hardy Alliance today. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. Today, we are diving into part five, the final part of the Pike County massacre. And I mean, we got some stuff to talk about today. But before we do, I know Derek has has some thoughts some ponderances that he would like

to share with all of us no it's good yeah it's good news i'm actually ready to get through this episode and kind of wrap it up i feel like we really got into all the details if you didn't know this case before you definitely know it now so i feel like the response is the crime weekly way right absolutely i feel like people definitely are going to leave the series understanding this case probably more than they'll ever need to understand it. But if it ever comes up in conversation about the Roden family massacre, you are going to be very familiar with it and able to come off as an expert if you've been paying attention for sure. They'll say pop quiz and you'll say, I got this. I got this. Step back.

I got this. No, we don't talk about it a ton. Recently, we've been talking about it. I'm drinking my criminal coffee right now. It's a little, we're recording a little later tonight, so I needed to pick me up. But the good news is I've been saying for a while that we wanted to get the website merged where you could go on and buy your coffee and merchandise under the same site, which is criminalcoffeeco.com.

You now can. If you go on there, if we have a code, the code will apply to everything on the site unless we dictate otherwise. And if that's the case, I'll let you know or Stephanie will let you know. But if you want to go in there and you want to buy coffee and you want to buy a sweatshirt or a hat or whatever else we put on the site, we got some great merch designs that are up there now and coming out soon. You'll be able to do that now. And it'll help you save a little money on shipping. We're always trying to find creative ways to save money for you guys because it's USPS that's charging it. We are only charging what they're charging us, not a penny more. In fact, I've actually just

learned that we're losing 12 cents on every order because they've changed their prices. Thanks, USPS. But we're not going to add that onto you. We'll eat it for now. And we're going to hopefully save you some more money where it's all by weight. So if you decide you do want a sweatshirt and coffee, you package it together. It's going to save you a little money there. And as far as the actual styles or sizes of the shirts or sweatshirts, if you go on there for the next couple of weeks and you notice that something's out of stock, give it about a week or two. J&R Marketing, who's handling the merch side, is going to be updating that very soon, as soon as the new order comes in. But yeah,

overall, it's there. We have a big announcement coming that I've been teasing for a while with Criminal Coffee. This website had to be done before that could be done. And then we'll have an update very soon after that regarding the case that we picked for the criminal coffee fund, the case we're going to be funding next and what laboratory we're going to be funding it with. That's been a whole process that we've been working on. We've got it narrowed down to two cases. We're leaning towards one. We just want to make sure the parameters are where we need them to be in order to give ourselves the best chance of success. We really want to make sure that your money, everyone who's buying stuff on criminal coffee is going to the right place and

has the highest chance of succeeding and coming out positively. So that's really all I have. You were telling me about it today, and it sounds very interesting. It's an interesting case. I feel like I want to tell you guys, but it's potentially a homicide. We're unsure. We have to identify the victim before we know that so they can reverse engineer what happened to this person after they identify who they are. But it is an interesting case. It would probably make for a good episode from Crime Weekly like we did with Preble Penny. So it's going to be a different laboratory this time.

Intermountain Forensics was great and we're going to work with them again. Absolutely. But we want to definitely diversify and make sure we're trying different laboratories to try to fund as many cases as we can based on how much coffee we're selling. So all good stuff coming from criminal

coffee. Sometimes I feel like we neglected a little bit because Crime Weekly is our priority, but we're definitely thinking about it. We're working hard for you guys. The response has been great. Really no negative feedback regarding the coffee other than the shipping prices. So with that all being the case- We feel pretty negative about that too. Yeah. I mean, trust me, we're right there with you. And a lot of the customer service stuff, when you guys hit us up, we respond within the day. So everything's going good.

All good news on this end and looking forward to continuing to grow and see how many cases we can solve this year. Yeah, it is very exciting. I'd like at least two. We did one last year. I'd like two this year. Yeah, I agree. And then three next year. And then four the next year. Yeah, I agree. And then three next year.

And then four the next year. You know, we'll see how we can go. And so on and so forth. Yes, absolutely. So that's all I got. Anything you got to add? No, that's it. Other than your slime?

Did you see my post the other night? No. You didn't see my post I put on Instagram last night? No. Did you have slime? So my daughter Peyton was talking to me about school. But as she's talking to me, she's doing what you're doing right now for our listeners, playing with slime. Because we have ADHD.

And I put it up on Instagram and I put, why are all the women in my life when having a conversation when you have to play with slime? And I CC'd you and Crime Weekly Pod and Crime Weekly Pod reposted it today. So that was a little shout out to you. I know you've been busy, but you missed a good one. Well, I've been laying low. Yes, you have. I've been laying low. Yes, you have.

So that's all I got. Oh, I see it. Why does everyone in my life have to play with slime while talking to me? There you go. You're seeing it right now? Yeah. And she's so cute. She's doing her thing.

She loves it. And then she had like a bubble. And she was like, oh my God, a bubble. And then I was like, okay. So now when I come up to visit her, I'm going to bring her some of my favorite slime. She'll love you forever. Yeah. She'll love you forever. I got some favorite slimes that it's my new thing now when I really care about somebody

and I'm like, I'm going to pick out the perfect slime for you. Because there's all different types of slime, by the way. You don't realize, but there's all different types. You know, you've got cloud slimes. You've got water slimes. You've got slimes with, like, stuff in them that crack when you, like, you know, all different kinds. So you really have to, like, match the slime to the personality of the person.

And in my opinion, it shows great care when you pick out the perfect slime for the person you care about. So I'm going to bring her a good one. Peyton definitely loves slime. Tenley does too. So yeah, they'll- I'll bring them both a slime. There you go.

Oh yeah, if you bring one, you got to bring the other slime. I do, obviously. For sure. Happy. So shout out to everybody who loves slime out there. I'm not one of those people because I'm usually the one

cleaning it out of the carpet after the fact. So love-hate relationship with slime. I, yes, I had to clean it out of my bed. I was playing with it in bed in the dark. I always play with it at night when I'm going to bed. I was playing with it in bed in the dark. I always play with it at night when I'm falling, I'm like going to sleep and I was playing with it. And then the next morning I woke up and there was like little pieces of slime just like shoved into my sheets. And I was like, damn it. I have to wash these sheets now. It's water soluble though. So no problem. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. All right, let's dive in.

Let's, let's dive into this bad boy. All right. So last time we talked about how Jake Wagner and his mother Angela had chosen to not be filmed during their testimony during the trial of George Wagner. And they were allowed to make this choice because of something called Rule 12 of Ohio's rules of superintendence for the courts. So Rule 12 basically states that a presiding judge assigned to the trial shall permit the broadcasting or recording by electronic means and the taking of photographs in court proceedings that are open to the public as provided by Ohio law. And it seems pretty straightforward. And it seems like, you know, no issues. Okay, great, great. But there was some

drama. There was some drama between the judge and the media when the judge made the decision that certain witnesses would be able to opt out of being recorded during their testimony. Now, typically in Ohio, a judge will allow witnesses to opt out of audio and video recording with cause or explanation. However, in George Wagner's trial, Judge Randall Deering denied the media's request to film the trial in a way that media lawyer Jake Grenier claims he's never seen before. Grenier represented Court TV and other media outlets in a legal challenge to this order, specifically pointing to Jake and Angela Wagner as examples of why the

order was misguided. Jake and Angela's testimony would contradict George Wagner's claim that he knew nothing about the plan to kill Hannah Roden and her family members, as well as his claim that he wasn't even present during the massacre. The media argued that the public had the right to see and hear the Wagner's version of events, even if reporters were not allowed to be in the courtroom to witness them. At the very least, they wanted to be able to record audio of the testimony. Attorney Jake Grenier said, quote, while not co-defendants, Jake and Angela are co-conspirators, and their testimony is expected to be critical to the prosecution's case. The public outside the courtroom deserves the same insight into this testimony as those in

person will experience. The jury will no doubt carefully observe the demeanor of these witnesses as it makes a determination about their credibility. The public should have the same opportunity. It is difficult to imagine what higher interest is served by the blocking of the recording of this testimony. It is well documented that Jake and Angela Wagner have entered plea agreements to this heinous crime. As a result, there can be no legitimate concern for their privacy here. Moreover, the testimony would be live streamed, meaning that the public would see and hear the testimony at the same time as the jury. Thus, there can be no legitimate fair trial concerns

as there's no risk that broadcasting the testimony will reveal information the jury would not otherwise see, end quote. And I completely agree on all fronts. So for instance, several witnesses in this trial did want their testimony to not be recorded. So as I think I mentioned a few episodes ago, it was the only trial I've ever seen where you would just have hours of black or no audio and it's just like focused on a statue in the courtroom. Hours. I'd be like, what is happening here? Is there technical difficulties? And then as I went through the days of the trial, I realized it wasn't technical difficulties. This was just people testifying who were afraid for their safety, basically, which I completely

understand in the case of the Wagner family, because they were kind of put forward to be a crime family. And, you know, who knows who they have out on the outside and who knows who's helping them on the outside. And you fear for your family, you fear for yourself. But with Jake and Angela, why were they allowed to not have their testimonies broadcast? They were co-conspirators. They took plea deals that were made public. So we all knew that they were doing it. Why can't we be allowed to hear their testimony? They're not regular witnesses afraid for their safety because they're the wagoners. They're the people who other people are afraid of. So it was a very strange thing that Judge Deering and the prosecution, to be honest, went so hard against the media on this.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I think if you're going to block out a portion of the trial, there has to be a very specific reason. And I think if it's a child, absolutely. Like a child getting on the stand, I'm absolutely for that. If it's a witness who is in no way, shape, or form connected to the case, but out of fear of retaliation from someone in the public during their testimony, yeah, they may want their identity protected as well. And I can understand why, especially like you had mentioned with the Wagners, and we don't know how far their reach really extends. Now, although I don't agree with it, if the judge decides to do this for certain people, I think it has to be all or nothing. Either the trial is going to be

distributed via live stream or video, or it's not. You can't pick and choose and be selective about who you want to be on camera and who you're not who you're going to afford the opportunity to not be on camera unless like i just said it's a child or someone who is a witness for the state or even a witness for the defense who does not wish to have their identity revealed other than that it's all or nothing well even in even in the testimony where the witnesses didn't want their testimony recorded they still like they still identified who was testifying and they still you know the people who are in the courtroom because there were a few media outlets allowed to be in the courtroom they wrote about what they said so you know it's just still there yeah they probably still have the court drawings and all that stuff so yeah it's weird like i said i think it's all or nothing. Either you're going to do it or you're not. But if you're going to allow the trial to be on TV or live streamed, unless it's like the protection of a child or a confidential informant, I don't think it should be. The judge should have the opportunity to be selective in who gets that privilege and who doesn't. Yeah, and like the law says, there has to be just cause.

So what cause, what reason are Angela and Jake giving of why them being recorded audio or visual in their testimony is going to put them in some kind of danger or compromise the fairness of the trial? There really is not, like once again, what they were talking about was still reported. You just couldn't see them. Right. It's just a weird thing. Not I agree. And I am all for court cases and trials being public available to the public. I have their taxpayer dollars balances for the lawyers and the judge. And I have personally,

in my opinion, been involved in multiple cases where the judge's determination decision was just completely asinine. And I can say that publicly, it's my opinion, but there's definitely cases that I've mentioned before, a la devin schmidt where the judge's rationale behind not charging by by not finding someone convicted of of murder but finding them guilty of a lesser sent uh charge like felony assault which would have which is what led to the death which led to the murder yeah right it's like that's how she died she died from the from the assault the judge admitted that he beat the shit out of her, but he can't be sure she couldn't be certain that that that beating was what resulted in her death. Anyways, I digress. I'm never going to get over that one. It bothers me every single time as I talk about these cases.

But my thing is, ultimately, those judges can never be held accountable. So they can't. They have like immunity. It's ridiculous. Complete immunity. But at least the public has the opportunity to view these trials and make their own decisions on what was right and what was wrong. I know with Devin Schmidt, it was a closed thing where I had access to it. It was in Seattle, but it was via Zoom. And it was like a closed, secured, password-protected thing. And there's no reason for that. Yeah, no,. And there's no and there's no reason for that. I didn't like it. There's no reason for that.

And at the end of the day, like I think just recently in the past few months, I've seen multiple times where judges have been called out because the trial was live streamed. Like one judge was texting her daughter while listening to the testimony. Remember? Yeah. So like, yes, it does. It does make these makes these people feel these judges who who really have no accountability for anything ever like they just make these arbitrary calls and they never have to answer for them if they were the wrong call but it gives them a little sense of like someone is watching so at least pretend like you give a shit at least

pretend like you're paying attention so uh and also like look at a football game right if the super bowl if they were like, we're not going to televise the Super Bowl, guys, okay? We're just going to tell you the score, and we're going to tell you play-by-play what happened, but you can't see if the refs are making bad calls. The people would be in an uproar about it. They'd be like, what do you mean we can't see the Super Bowl? You're just going to tell us what happened? You're going to report what's going on, but we can't see if the refs are actually doing their job correctly or if they're showing favoritism or preferential treatment to one team or the other.

It's just a bad, there's no transparency there. It's a bad move. You committed the crime. Jake and Angela took part in murdering these eight people. They have no expectation of privacy at this point. None, in my opinion. I'm with you. I agree 100%.

Well, let's take our first break and I'll tell you what happened. Surprise, surprise. Judge Randall Deering denied the media's request. But one sole reporter appealed this decision. And that reporter was Derek Myers of the Ceoto Valley Guardian, an online outlet that he himself had launched in 2019. Myers said, quote, Some people in the pool were okay with having these restrictions imposed on them. They were okay with not challenging them, or at least not saying enough. And if they did want to challenge them, they couldn't do so independently. They'd have to go through their bosses and their bosses wouldn't necessarily let

them. I, on the other hand, don't have bosses. So my bosses are myself. So I felt like I was in the position to stand up and speak out when I saw the court doing something that wasn't transparent. End quote. When he when he says the pool, he's referring to the media pool. Yep. Yeah. So you want to explain that a little bit? Well, it's a pool of journalists that have the opportunity that have been afforded the right to attend the trial. And whatever guidelines or restrictions are placed on that pool, it's it's placed on the entirety of it unless the judge makes an exception. But like he's saying here, those journalists that are in there are most likely employees of bigger entities. Like Court TV. Exactly. So they're not the decision makers. They're not the shot caller.

Yeah. They're just going there and doing their job. So when something's imposed on them, unless their bosses or their bosses step up and appeal it. By the time it gets up the chain of command, the decision's already been made and whatever's been done has already been done. So it's usually too late. But yeah, that's essentially what the pool would be. The journalists that are allowed or the TV organizations or newspapers that are allowed to be present during the trial. It's not everybody can come in with any YouTube channel and be in the courtroom. You have to be part of the pool. So in this specific scenario, the pool's also going to refer to, because not every journalist who's included in the pool was able to be physically in the courtroom. So they have,

they basically, you know, anybody who is testifying that's allowing their testimony to be recorded, the journalist in the pool can see it as it's happening. They also have a group message that they can tell each other what's happening if they're not in there, things like that. Because there was a lot of people who wanted to be in the courtroom for this trial, as I'm sure you can imagine. Absolutely. Especially with how many people were affected by this in the community. I'm sure there's a lot of people who wanted to be present for the entire thing. And as you know, the Rodents had a big family and many of those family members were given first dibs on being in the courtroom to see this trial go down. Right. But that can also be seen as an intimidation tactic. There's a lot of

different ways of looking at these things. Everything's strategy, you know? Yeah. But I mean, so Derek Myers, he appeals this decision on his own. And to everyone's surprise, an appellate court actually sided with him. And so on the second day of George Wagner's trial, Derek Myers entered the media group chat demanding that the pool camera be turned onto Jake Wagner, who was scheduled to be on the stand that day testifying against his brother. The appellate court had made it very clear that before a witness be allowed to opt out of being recorded, the judge must hold a hearing, a separate hearing for each witness, to determine if a reasonable and substantial basis existed for believing that public access could harm or endanger the fairness of the trial. And that's exactly what Judge Deering did the very next morning, before Jake's third day on the stand. Now, the lawyer, the media lawyer, Jake Grenier, he was in the courtroom during this hearing,

and he argued that Rule 12 did not require a judge to grant an objecting witness's request, but rather to weigh it against the public's interest in viewing the trial. Jake's lawyers and even the prosecution argued that changing the conditions of Jake's testimony may cause him to feel less chatty, less willing to be forthcoming with information, which is bullshit

because you know he already gave a statement of everything he was going to say on that stand to the prosecution. It's not as if there was going to be some surprise revelation. He'd already given everything he knew. He led them to the weapons, etc., etc. Once again, I kind of find it to be just an excuse. They called a correctional officer up to the weapons, et cetera, et cetera. Once again, I kind of find it to be just an excuse. They called a correctional officer up to the stand to testify about family or co-conspirators becoming targets of attacks from other prison inmates to show that, like, you know, if these testimonies are shown, they might be attacked in prison. Maybe George would be attacked in prison because of Jake's statement. And once again, his statements were still publicly available. Like, we could still,

it was still reported on. So it doesn't make any sense. But once again, Judge Deering ultimately denied the media's request and allowed Jake to opt out of his testimony being recorded. But Derek Myers, he would not be deterred. He felt that the information being shared at trial

was information the public had a right to know. And like this dude called the fire marshal. It was like the courtroom's over capacity. And he was hoping that they would come in and make like a secondary room for the media, because sometimes when the courtroom's over capacity, they'll take all the media, put them in a separate room and then put a TV in there so the media can still see what's happening in the courtroom. But that didn't happen. The fire marshal came in and took a head count and was like, you're all set. Let's try, Derek. He was like, at the end of the day, I know it was petty, but I was just trying anything. So he basically was trying things to

get his way, to get his way for the public and for journalism and for transparency. But then on October 28th, the Ceuta Valley Guardian, this is Derek Myers' publication, they published a recorded portion of Jake's statement on their website. And according to Derek Myers, he did nothing wrong by taking this action. He said, quote, I feel like when it came down to Rule 12, when it came down to the Wagner trial, that when this audio recording landed in my lap, that this was something the rulers were trying to keep concealed, and this was a transaction that the taxpayers had paid for, and how dare it be concealed from them. So when the opportunity quite literally landed on my desk to reveal what was going on inside the courtroom, we researched the law to make sure that it wasn't illegal for us to do it.

And when we saw that we were in compliance with the law if we published it, we made the decision to move forward with publishing it. End quote. Myers said that the recording came from a well-known source who shared his views on transparency and open government, and no one from his media outlet did anything to coax or entice the source into recording the testimony or giving it to the Guardian. That same day, a judge signed a warrant for the arrest of Derek Myers on the offense of interception of wire, electronic, or oral communications. The complaint accused Myers of unlawfully using the offense of interception of wire, electronic, or oral communications. The complaint accused Myers of unlawfully using the content of an electric communication while knowing the contents were obtained illegally. So basically, someone in the courtroom, and I'm not going to say who,

although I have my suspicions of who it was, felt like, you know, that the courts weren't being fair by withholding Jake's testimony because, I mean, this guy's not going to go on trial. Jake's not going to have his day in trial. We're not going to get to hear all this stuff against him. He's testifying against his brother. So we get to hear all this stuff that George did but nothing that really you know Jake did. And so they thought that they would send it to Derek Myers and he felt he would publish it and that nothing would happen and something did happen. Something that he got arrested. And I'm still kind of waiting to hear what happens with him. I think it's just kind of still in limbo. Like he hasn't gone to court yet, but hopefully he gets off because that's ridiculous. Yeah. I mean, in one breath, I can say that I think I believe in transparency and I believe the public has the right to view the trial and hear the trial.

But in the next breath, I will also say that even though I don't agree with the ruling, if the judge decides that he's going to affirm his initial decision and for whatever reason, however you want to spin it, however you want to twist it, what he did was wrong. And I think he knew it was wrong. No, he researched the law, Derek. If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything. It's open to interpretation. His interpretation of the law was that it was perfectly fine, but it was pretty black and white. There were to be no electronic transmissions about his testimony, Jake's testimony released outside the courtroom. Derek did that. And I love his name, even though he spells it wrong. I love his name, but I think he knew what he was doing and he was hoping the judge wouldn't call him on his bluff, but he did. And you know, he, he got slapped on

the wrist for sure. I think he spells it like Derek Zoolander. D-E-R-E-K. You know, everyone in the comments, although they're getting better, but there's still a lot of people who are like you know derek i hate you you don't you don't pay attention to detail but they spell my name wrong it's like on the screen the whole time so yo why why do they say you don't pay attention to detail i'm saying the irony and is it like they don't i don't pay attention to detail but they're spelling my name wrong so it's like they're doing it to make you mad it doesn't make me mad i mean it's i'm 40 years old at this point. I'm kind of over it. It's not the first time people have spelled my name wrong.

But some of the criticism is it's like, oh, you know, you probably wouldn't be a good detective at all. You don't even see the clues. Oh my God, really? I'm exaggerating. It's not a lot of that. Jeez.

Shout out to everybody who spells my name right. If that happens, if somebody says you're not a good detective at all, Derek, and they spell your name wrong, just let me know. I'm going to be up in there. No, no, I won't. I don't want you being up in there. I just laugh and I keep it moving. No, I just keep it moving. Yo, so whenever I call somebody on the phone and they're like, what's your name? I'm like, Stephanie. They think I say Bethany. I don't know why every single time this has happened forever. Stephanie, Bethany? Like, which is the more common name?

So Angela Wagner also testified without being recorded. And she testified that she and her family feared that Jake and Hannah's daughter, Sophia, was being molested. Per the custody arrangement, Sophia would spend one week with the Rodens and then one week with the Wagners. And according to Angela, when she would come back from her week with the rodents, Sophia's genital area looked red and had a very strong odor. That is what Angela claimed. Now, during the week with the Wagners, the redness would subside. But then when Sophia spent her time with the rodents, it would come back. Now, here's the thing. There's no evidence that this little girl was being molested. I don't believe that she was. And she was too. So something like that redness and an odor can just come from not being bathed properly when you're that young. You still

are getting diaper rash and things like that. And there was literally no investigation done because the prosecution even asked Angela, like, well, did you call CPS? And Angela's like, no. And they're like, why? She's like, I don't know. What do you mean why? Because I don't genuinely think you thought she was being molested.

Now, there's text messages between Angela and her husband, Billy, right before the murders within the weeks before the murders where Angela's like, you know, Sophia's like red again, like there's something going on. But also this could just be paranoia. And also knowing what they were about to do, it could be setting up a narrative ahead of time in case they ever got caught. Angela said that she had even asked her husband, Billy, who had some business dealings with Chris Roden Sr. to keep an eye on the situation with Sophia when he was over at the Roden's place. And Angela also said that the initial idea to

kill Hannah was Billy's idea. And he basically said, we can't just kill Hannah because all these other people are going to come after us. So we got to kill them all. But then Angela said, quote, nobody's heart was in it. Nobody wanted to do it. End quote. As if it was like their only option. Nobody's heart was in it. I hope nobody's heart was in the murder of eight people in front of literal children. But yeah, she's like begrudging. We had to begrudgingly do it. We didn't want to. We didn't really, you know, we weren't like enthusiastic about it, but it had to be done. All right, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. We're back. So Angela Wagner also claimed she didn't know any details about the plan to murder the rodents. Like she knew that they were going to kill them, but she didn't know how they were going to do it.

She didn't know, you know, when or any of the details. I don't believe that considering she was very active in buying the shoes, buying phone scramblers, cell signal scramblers, cameras, bug detectors, things like that. You know, she obviously knew enough of the details.

And these people don't do anything without them basically sharing a brain. So everything one knows, the others know, in my opinion. But she said that she stayed at home with Sophia and Bullvine that night. And then she remembers that on the night of the murders, Billy came over because remember, he's living with his mom, Frederica, and his dad, who's sick. Billy comes over to her house where she lives with Jake and George and their wives

and their kids. And he says, all right, we're heading out. We're going to go do this now. And Angela said, quote, I honestly did not think my husband would go through with it. End quote. Bullshit. You bought all of this stuff. You guys set everything up. And then he comes over on the night and he's like, we're doing it. And she's still like, he ain't going to do it. Stop it, Angela. I mean, listen, I agree with you, but let's just play devil's advocate. Wow. You know, because this with you, but let's just play devil's advocate. Wow. You know, because this is Crime Weekly.

It's what we do. Is it possible she was going along with it? I've done it before where you're like, sure. Yep. Yep. Sure. You're going to do it. You've gone along with a murder plot before?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A murder plot. But like, no, it's something where it's like, you know what? I'm going to redo this entire room. I just need, if I just had this item or I just had this, you know, piece of wood, I can build this and do this. And then you get it and they have all the tools they need, but it's like, well, should we just hire someone else to do it? Cause now I really, I don't think I can do it because, but now all the things are there and

they're backing out because they realized the work needed behind it, where maybe she felt like there's no way he's going to go through with this. There's no way he's going to kill these people. He's not a murderer as far as we know. And he's all talk right now. They're all, they're just being big and bad. Jake's threatening to be a tough guy. He's going to do it. I think it's all, they're just, they're blowing smoke right now. And when it comes time to pull the trigger, literally they're going to chicken out. So I would agree with you. I do this all the time too. It's better than arguing with people. People will be like, I want to do this and I'm going to do this. And instead of arguing with

them or trying to talk them out of it, you say, okay. Yeah, here you go. Here you go. It almost like stuns them. And then I do it with the kids all the time. Aiden will say, oh, I don't want to go to basketball practice tonight. And in fact, I don't want to do basketball anymore. And I'll say, OK, I'll email your coach and let him know. An hour later, Aiden's back and he's like, you know, I really did not want to be on the team. I just didn't want to go tonight. Have you emailed my coach yet? Because it gives them a moment of relief.

Like, OK, she's not going to fight me on this. But then after that moment of relief, they're like, but is this really what I want? Why'd you give in so easily? Like throws people. So I feel you. But on a murder plot, when I know how like gung ho my sons and my husband are for this, am I just going to be like, yeah, OK, guys. OK, cuties, you're going to go and murder a whole family of people.

Have fun. No, absolutely not. Yeah, you think at that point now, now me going against what i just said if your husband's contemplating murdering someone don't roll the dice and assume he's not gonna do it maybe choose to be the voice of reason to say honey do you really think this is a good idea you know like i don't know if you're actually going to do this or not but if you're seriously considering it i i would suggest that you not do it as your as your wife i I'd like to see you and not behind bars So if you're even considering this

Don't put yourself in a situation where even if you back out you could end up being a conspirator Involved in this process and and be found guilty of murder just by your mere presence And now i'm a conspirator because you told me about it. Absolutely. So maybe voice of reason should have came in there. Yeah. I don't know. There's not a there's not a damn voice of reason or enough brain cells to rub together to make a spark between the four of them. OK, let's just be honest. Well, could that be part of it? Not that not that stupidity is an excuse or a defense, but could these people just be not that intelligent and therefore it's the blind leading the blind? The laws don't apply to them. They're entitled. Could it be this ignorance though? You're stupid and entitled. Terrible combination.

I mean, these are the people who left the shell casings from the guns they used in the murder on their property and didn't think anything of it. You're going to love what I have to say then. Okay. Let's get to it. So she doesn't think her husband's going to do it, right? Before he leaves, Billy tells her, hey, my phone's here. Jake's phone's here. George's phone's here.

Send text to people while we're away so that it looks like we've been home the whole time. Genius. Take all our phones and just be texting people, right? So she did that too. So she's contributing to the cover-up. Let's not skate over that. Yeah, and she's acting like she doesn't know any details. And she's like, I don't think they're actually going to do it.

Like, shut up. Anyways, Angela was asked, all right, well, I mean, your husband and your sons were out that night taking eight lives. What did you do that night? And she said, she went to bed. She went to bed and she went to sleep. And the prosecutor asked her, how are you able to sleep that night knowing what was happening? And she said, quote, it was a long day and I'd worked all day. I took some prescription ibuprofen. It made me go to

sleep. End quote. I don't know what kind of ibuprofen she's taken. That's prescriptive. You think she's talking about like Tylenol with codeine or something? Because I don't care how strong the ibuprofen is. It's not going to give you a drowsiness. I don't know, man. Yeah, ibuprofen usually wouldn't do it. I don't know. Yeah. You know that, you know, if she didn't take no ibuprofen, she's probably like throwing

Vicodins down her mouth. More than likely. So Angela also said that they'd all thought a move to Alaska could be a fresh start for them. But that was very short lived because as they were driving to Alaska to relocate, the Wagners received a text message from a friend and the text included pictures of BCI agents conducting searches at their former home. And Angela said this made her very anxious because she was worried that the investigators might find something that was not supposed to be found. But Billy told her don't worry relax he'd made sure

that he'd gathered up all the shell casings oh my word billy billy what are we doing billy what he's like i probably missed a couple thousand but a hundred all the other ones got him what was billy using when he was looking for him a blindfold was he doing it at night without a flashlight he probably had like his cell phone flashlight on he's like hey you know be really fun let's pick up these shell casings with their eyes closed we'll see how many we can get whatever ones we don't get they have to stay that's just that's the game. He went out there. He's drunk. Hi.

Jake's like, I told you to get all the shell casings. He's like, oh, I thought you just said some of the shell casings. My bad. I thought as long as we picked up most of them, it wouldn't count. Fallen shell casings. Oh, you wanted the ones of the guns that we used. Oh, shit. I left those ones. I got the other ones of the guns that we used. Oh, shit. I left those ones.

I got the other ones. I got the other ones. I thought that the ones we used would be safer in the lawn where no one could see them. Somebody framed us. Somebody's been on our property shooting the guns before the murders. That's what they should have went with. That would have been a better option. I mean, they could have have but with all the other evidence

you know yeah you know and i do think and who who who are you gonna even say did that because then you're gonna have to say somebody did and then they're gonna cops are gonna go and ask this person like hey were you shit and they're gonna be like no what are you talking about i am gonna say this because i was thinking about this a few episodes ago and obviously we're having a good time with this portion of it we're joking it up I'd like to think if I were there, because I've, you know, I've found a shell casing or two in my career, like to toot my own horn, but you know, there we go. I'm more inclined to believe that more than likely the Wagners did make some efforts as Billy suggested to pick up all the shell casings in a reasonable area.

You know, the obvious ones. I don't think, again, we're laughing about it, but I don't think as investigators walked onto their property, they were literally swimming through the shell casings. They were. No, I don't believe they were. Dude, that's what he said. They parked, walked up the driveway to the house, and as they're walking, they're looking down and they're like, man, that's a whole lot of shell casings just littered around the driveway he said there was

dude he said there was thousands so what the hell happened here did you miss the ones in the driveway there's not even grass in the driveway it's like gravel maybe there's some grass growing through but the fact that you could see them glinting as you walked up brass so when the sun hits the brass a certain way it literally looks like it- So he's like, it lit up. He's like, this driveway's lit up with all these freaking shell casings. Yeah, and it would stand out like a dirt road or something like that.

If you have just the tops of the shell casings or the sides of them coming through the dirt. So maybe Billy forgot the driveway. Yeah, there's gotta be something, maybe like near the immediate area. There's gotta, I would love to see it to know, okay, this is what he thought was gonna work. He like oh it's not close to the trailer so it doesn't they can't tie it to us but either way no i guarantee you that this is what happened okay they didn't think

shit about those shell casings until they found out that the police found them and then angela was probably like billy what the hell man why are there so many shell casings and billy was like oh i thought i cleaned them all up. You know, I thought I cleaned it. He didn't freaking he was just didn't want to get yelled at by his wife. Like most men, you know, like, oh, Derek, you you left. You didn't take the garbage out again. I thought I did.

I thought I did. It's just normal stuff. They didn't even think about those shell casings because they're so entitled and they think they're above the law. And then the rules of man don't apply to them because they're the boondock saints. You had said a few episodes ago, it might even have been last episode, but I mean, they did take some measures where they built a false bottom on the truck. There was some creativity or some signs of intelligence that were applied. It just seems like this is such a dumb mistake when they've gone to the extremes that they did in other ways to try to secure their alibi and avoid apprehension. So to forget

something so basic is surprising. But like I've said to you guys- I think they've been doing target shooting on that property for so long. They were just embedded in there. They probably didn't. So when they're planning that night, it's like this big, exciting thing, right? Because they're hands-on it's the cleanup portion that they don't really want to do it's like the little details and things like that they're all about planning their like movie cinematic you know killing spree because that's exciting for them it's like oh hands-on cleaning up the shell casings and like making sure you have loose ends tied up. Those are like

details. That's detail stuff. You know, it's not like action. It's not the fun stuff. Yeah. I mean, you're not wrong. And I've said it since we started Crime Weekly that as investigators, when we go into these cases, what we're really looking for is the mistakes. Obviously, we're going to do our due diligence. We're going to process the crime scene. We're going to try to get fancy and lift a fingerprint or find a boot print or just something that most people wouldn't find. But because we're such great detectives, we're going to find that one clue that's going to help solve the case. But in most instances, it's something pretty simple that was overlooked by the offenders and we're able to identify it. I had a case one time where it was a double homicide.

Thought it was pretty, we were pretty much in the dark. We got a tip and we had a guy that we thought could be good for it. And for the most part, he stuck to his story. But then we were able to get access to his cell phone. And you would think that he would have cleaned his cell phone before coming into the police station for an interrogation but sure enough we go on his phone and we find a photo of the of the offender and it's a photo being taken by the victim who was killed later so this was kind of a situation where the offender was being made fun of because he was he fell asleep on the toilet woke up up, saw the picture.

Oh, yeah, you told me this one. And then ended up killing the guy who took the photo. But this was a simple photo that gave us a motive and allowed us to really pick at him until he ultimately confessed to the murder. So something so basic where you would think he did everything else right. We didn't find any trace evidence at the house, no murder weapon, nothing. I mean, we knew what the weapon was. We just couldn't find it. And yet it was a photo that ultimately tied it all together. So that's really what we're doing. And he technically could have kept denying it. He could have kept denying it. He would have had nothing. Yeah. He had us. Yeah,

he had us. But he didn't know he had you. Exactly. And you know, that's not every case you work is just this magic moment where you find that one clue under the bed like you see on TV. Sometimes it's just dotting your I's, crossing your T's, being thorough, being observative and going through the process and hoping that the criminal made a mistake. Because I've also said this before. If criminals were smart, we wouldn't catch them often. They would get away with it because it is hard to solve these cases. But when they do something like this with the shell casings,

it makes us look like geniuses and we love them for that. I mean, it's not even being smart sometimes. Sometimes it's just dumb luck, you know? And then they get away and you never figure out who they are. Yeah, exactly. There's so many unsolved cases

and you know there ain't that many smart criminals. 50% of the homicides in this country go unsolved. Why is that? Jeez Louise. Right? So there's a reason for it, for sure. And it's something that- And it's not because there's a bunch of Einsteins running around out there killing people.

No. There's a lot of reasons for it. But some of it is, like you said, just dumb luck where there's no camera or witness present at the time when it occurs. And we're not magicians, unfortunately. Or fortune tellers. True. Or time travelers. Not even that.

Yep. All right. So the Wagners also came up with an alibi that they could offer law enforcement if asked. On the night of the murders, they'd all been at home together enjoying a family movie night. And when the Wagners were questioned

by BCI agents at the Montana border, Angela claimed she was super anxious and super scared that her sons would be arrested. Not scared because her sons would be arrested and go to prison. Scared because Sophia and Bullvine would be taken away from her. When they got to Alaska, Angela hung blankets and curtains on every door and window in their trailer. And Billy told her, calm down. It's all going to be OK. But he also told Angela, Jake and George to never talk in the car because it was probably bugged after their interaction with the agents in Montana.

Angela said that her son George had offered to take full responsibility for the murders if they ever became suspects. But she told him that she didn't think the investigators would believe that. Which, why? Is it because she like thought her son was stupid and she's like, you're going to take full credit for eight murders. Who's going to believe you could do that? It's almost like she's like putting him down for not being a good murderer. He's like, Mom, I'll take all the I'll take all the fall.

I'll save you all. And she's like, nobody's going to believe that you're capable of this. Yikes. Geez. Wow. It's not like, no, George, that's so sweet like, nobody's going to believe that you're capable of this. Yikes. Geez. Wow. It's not like, no, George, that's so sweet. You don't have to do that.

We would never want to do that to you. It's like, no one's going to believe you are this good at killing people. Just be quiet. Well, Angela Sanapa, remember, she's the prosecutor who says, um, a lot. She asked Angela Wagner if she thought that they were going to get away with it. And Angela Wagner replied, quote, My belief is you never get away with it. You live with it. End quote. Due to the terms of her plea deal, Angela Wagner will be close to 80 years old when she's released. And she said that the whole point of her making this deal, the whole reason she's taking this plea deal is so that when she's finally released, she will be able to see her grandchildren again one day on her last day of testimony. Yeah. And get that. You're going to be able to see your grandchildren one day. This woman's delusional because when you get out of prison at the age of 80, your grandchildren are going to be grown-ass adults who now are well aware of what you did to their parents. Well aware, because there's plenty of evidence, not just, you know,

Sophia's parents, because, you know, Hannah was killed, but Bovine's mother, who you literally railroaded and made sure she couldn't even see him for over a year. They're going to know you did that. And hopefully they will want nothing to do with you as it should be. I mean, you delusional woman. Yeah. On her last day of testimony, Angela said that all four of them, herself, George, Jake and Billy were guilty of aggravated murder. And she said, quote, I have regret. I have remorse. I am more than sorry. But that's not enough.

End quote. Sure as hell isn't. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. After George Wagner was convicted, his father, Billy Wagner, became the sole member of the family whose fate was yet to be decided. After his 2018 indictment, Billy was transferred to the Butler County Jail to await his trial. Sheriff Richard Jones said, quote, When he first came to jail, he had some issues. He requested to be isolated from the other prisoners.

He never had much experience, I assume, of being in jail. Because of the notoriety of the case, he requested to be isolated in protective custody, end quote. But as of now, Billy is no longer in solitary or under protective custody. He has no restrictions. He's been permitted to mingle with the other inmates and he has access to a television like any other inmate, although it's unknown whether he's been keeping up with the trial coverage. I would say he probably has been, but the sheriff said, I don't know if he has. He doesn't talk to me about it. He's never said anything to me about it. Sheriff Jones also said, quote, I've seen him in the jail in the four-year period he's been here, and I've had conversations with him briefly. I had a conversation with him two, three weeks ago in his cell block, and he was talking with other prisoners.

I asked him, what's going on? And he replied, not much. And I laughed at his answer. I've been around these types of prisoners for years, and he's right where he needs to be now, incarcerated, and he should get used to it. He's not been to trial yet, but in all likelihood, he'll never see the daylight of day. If he ever gets out of prison, his parole officer hasn't even been born yet. End quote. Oh, that's a great quote. It's so good, right? That's a good one. I gotta be honest, wish I thought of that one. That's a good one. I can just see this sheriff, like his like cowboy hat, you know, very like rugged.

And he's like, if he's, if he ever gets out of prison, his parole officer ain't even been born yet. Yeah. And I don't even to just go back a little bit. Chewing on a toothpick. I don't. Cause, cause just to correct me if I'm wrong, Billy wasn't, he didn't take a deal. I mean, he, he Billy wasn't he didn't take a deal. I mean, he he didn't. He didn't. So I really don't understand the rationale behind the protective custody. The only thing I can I understand, Jake, because he's he wasn't a baby, but the circumstances surrounding this case,

they killed a 16 year old boy. That was the youngest, I believe, Christopher. And also they left a two, how old was Sophie again at the time? Sophia. Oh, Sophia wasn't there. I'm sorry. Kylie. Kylie. Thank you. Two, four days old, four days old, left her on Hannah Mae to nurse because they were afraid she may die from starvation before she was found. So those circumstances, that lack of care for the baby after murdering her mom and then leaving her there. He positioned the baby so she could feed off of her mother's dead body. But it was still a risk. He was so thoughtful. It was still a risk. What if the baby so she could feed off of her mother's dead body. Right, but it was still a risk. He was so thoughtful. It was still a risk.

What if the baby falls off or whatever? But that being the case, I could see an angle where if inmates got word of that, the lack of respect shown for it. Because, again, we all know this by now. Prisoners, there is a code. When it comes to pedophiles or people who do harm to children, it does not go well for them in jail. Are you kidding me? Do you know how much Jake loves children? He wants to take all the children, even if they aren't his.

Yeah, well, like I said, it could have been a situation where they were concerned that if prisoners got wind of the details of these murders and knowing that a four-day-old baby was left to fend for herself with her dead mother. There may be some prisoners who are doing life in prison already who have nothing to lose and may have children outside of those walls who don't take too kindly to that and may have made an example of Billy or Jake. So that's the only thing I can think of why they would put him in solitary confinement or protective custody is because of the fear that he would be killed before even going to trial. But obviously, after a while, solitary confinement is really difficult. I think most prisoners say, hey, you know what?

I'd rather risk it all and be in general population because I'm not going to survive in solitary. But that's that's the one thing that raised an eyebrow. He was just a little baby. I mean, I would say this was a very high profile case. An entire family killed. Like the prisoners might, you know, and prisoners are watching the news just like anyone else following this case.

And now they got Billy coming in here who's basically been accused of orchestrating the whole thing. He's the patriarch of the family. And they might be like, yo, why'd you do that to these people, man? Four-year-old baby, her mom, really? Hannah Gilley and Frankie were in bed with their baby. Yep. Their six-month-old baby. And when they were shot. So yeah.

Definitely some prisoners who have kids who are in their 20s or 16, 17 years old that they now see their own children in Christopher, in Hannah, in Frankie. And again, they're in prison forever. And to know these people didn't do anything wrong. They didn't do anything wrong to deserve that. You just took a child, two children's parents away from them in one foul swoop. And yeah, it's heinous. It's brutal. It's unnecessary. And what would have happened to them potentially from the other prisoners

would have been equally if not more brutal. So maybe that's the reason for the protective custody. I guess that's the only thing I can come up with. You know what else it is too is it's like you said the prisoners have a code. You've got Billy Wagner and Chris Roden Sr., best friends. Oh, yeah. Business partners in their whole marijuana thing.

So the prisoners might look at this as like, you guys were partners in this. Like, you turned on him. You have no loyalty. You have no loyalty. We can't trust you. You can't be trusted. Exactly. Oh, it's a good point.

It's a good point. Pedophiles and snitches. Don't go molester. Child molesters. a good point. It's a good point. Pedophiles and snitches. Don't go, don't have, don't go molester. Child molesters doesn't happen. Doesn't go well in prison for those people. So that could be why that could be part of it. Absolutely. He may have been scared of that happening. Like I'm about to go in here and they're going to know what I did to my best friend. And this could be some projections, some anxiety and guilt on his part. Who knows? But either way, I guess he's getting along fine now,

probably fitting right in. I mean, he knows he's going to be there for the long haul. So he's just trying to make his, this is his prison era now. He's, he's inmate. Was that a Taylor Swift reference? It was a Taylor Swift reference. Thank you. Oh my word. You found a way. Thank you so much. I always do. You found a way. Shut up. You love her. Sometimes. All much. I always do. Shut up. You love her. Sometimes. All right.

So Billy Wagner's attorney, Mark Collins, he wants his client's trial moved due to media coverage, saying, quote, This county has been so saturated with the facts underlying this case that it is impossible for the defendant to receive a fair trial before a jury composed of impartial persons who learn of the case only through the evidence properly submitted during the trial, end quote. The motion filed by Collins states that most of the media coverage was negative and blatantly prejudicial misinformation that presumed Billy's guilt. And this news had been plastered all over Southern Ohio. I mean, I don't know how you have positive media coverage of a massacre of eight people. What are they supposed to do? Billy Wagner, although complicit in the murder of eight people, was a great golfer. He really loved Flamin' Hot Cheetos. What are we supposed to say about him that's positive? And

there's no blatant misinformation, by the way, none. Just absolutely ridiculous. So Collins highlights the use of the word massacre to describe the murders. And he's like, this word was being used within hours of the news breaking about what had happened in this small Ohio town of Piketon. And this word massacre, ugh, really, really like did a number, you know, on the public. It's ridiculous. What's the definition of massacre? What is the definition of massacre?

Because I'm pretty sure that what happened here just by default, just objectively is a massacre. Okay. You know what a massacre is? An indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of people. Deliberately and violently killing a large number of people. It was a massacre. That's exactly what it is. And that's why we called it that.

That's why they called it that. A lot of people. A lot of people for really no reason at all. Like I said, a teenage boy laying in bed to take him out like that only because he could, you know, again, he could be a witness or leaving family members alive. They could implicate the Wagners. They basically tried to wipe out an entire family, just an entire generation of people so that obviously no one would be able to speak,

but more importantly, the children would end up with the Wagners. And you still end up getting caught. You still end up getting caught. So they died for nothing. Just a really cold and careless murder that was conducted by multiple times, eight different people. Just, yeah. Four different scenes like ridiculous. Massacre could be somewhat subjective. I think it's open to interpretation, but I fit by the definition. So there have been worse massacres for sure. But this this is on the worse. But it's not it's not it's not a competition. Good point. Good point. It's just you know, that that is what happened. This was a massacre. So the motion continued by saying, quote, the negative coverage at the click of a button must not be ignored. There is a reason why attorneys cannot use loaded words such as murderer or massacre in the court of law. And that is so that the jury does not hear that which is unduly prejudicial. End quote. Yes, they can't. They can't use words like murderer and stuff because the person's on trial.

So technically, they're not a murderer until they're found guilty. So that's why prosecutors can't use words like murderer. OK, I don't think that they're prevented from using words like massacre, however, because I did hear the word massacre being used during the trial. So Mark Collins, man. But listen, we talk about attorneys and you can have a love hate relationship with them. Ultimately, Mark Collins is doing his job. We may not agree with his assessment. Mark

Collins may not agree with what he's saying, but we've talked about the judicial system and how messed up it is in a lot of ways. Defense attorneys and prosecutors use these cases as a means to accomplish whatever goal they're trying to accomplish, and they don't necessarily care about the actual people. It's more about their own reputations, the state's reputation, and what they can do based on how the laws are written and what they can convince the judge of. You know, that's their job. That's what they're there to do. What's that saying? Don't hate the player, hate the game? I do hate the game. Oh, same, same, same. But like I've told you guys, I've experienced it multiple times, both sides of the aisle. It's unfortunate that we

don't have a system that is purely black and white. Like there's a law, it's very well defined and it's either yes or no. It's every law we have, which is supposed to make it impartial and unbiased. Every law we have is open to interpretation by the people reading it and they're not unbiased. So it's not fair on either side. And unfortunately, in a lot of cases, these trials will be decided by the better attorney, which we've seen multiple times, their ability to tell a story and manipulate the facts to fit their narrative. Jose Baez. Shout out Jose Baez. And there's been others. Shout out Jose Baez.

We go back to the old school guys, the OGs like Johnny Cochran and Shapiro, their ability to take the facts of a case and present them these incriminating facts in a way that made OJ look innocent. It was just the glove. The glove is the perfect example of it, right? It's a skill. And that's why some of these defense attorneys, the same ones are hired over and over by these high profile clients because they know that this is what they're good at. Yeah. They'll do whatever it takes. It's stupid. The whole judicial system is broken. If I was a multimillionaire and I found myself unfortunately in this type of situation, I'd hire them too. So I'm not, I'm not, uh, because I know the game. So I would, I would do the same thing if I could afford it. So

I get it. We don't have to like it, but it's the reality that we also wouldn't murder anybody. So you, Well, exactly. That's my point. But even if I was innocent, that doesn't always mean you're going to get off. I know. I know. I know. I know.

But I don't know. I'm saying like, I don't know. I guess the murderer doesn't care that they're a murderer. So they're going to want to get off regardless. Regardless. Fair. I'm thinking like a normal person where it's like if I murdered eight people, I'm not going to like, I'm not going to even try to get away with it. Like I did I did it yeah I maybe I didn't mean to maybe I didn't want to whatever but like I did it and it's time to face the music oh Jesus you're living in a fantasy world it would just be so

stressful running from it and like lying all the time like it would be so stressful I don't people do it every day let's take our last break. And then we're going to wrap up this episode. Mark Collins, Billy's lawyer, he believes that moving the trial to a larger, more populated area such as Columbus, Ohio, might offer Billy Wagner a more impartial jury than the 27000 Pike County residents who've been steeped in pervasive media coverage. Now, listen, Columbus is getting the same damn media coverage as Pike County or Pike, the town of Pike, Piketon, whatever. They're getting the same coverage, by the way. However, I don't blame Collins for wanting a bigger jury pool to choose from because the murders were so personal to the people of Pike County, because they were like, you know, their lives were turned upside down and thrown into chaos for so many years because of these murders and because of them being unsolved, because people were scared, because people probably changed their lives, worried that there was some like vigilante

boondock saints running around out there. I can see that the people who live in this area would be maybe a little bit more interested in seeing Billy Wagner be found guilty than people in Columbus who don't have such emotional ties to the case. That I see, and that I don't necessarily disagree with. That's fair, yeah. Yeah. But Billy Wagner, he is expected to go on trial sometime next year after multiple delays, the most recent of which occurred just a week ago. The Pike County judge has pushed back the murder trial of Billy Wagner to next year. Wagner is accused in the Pike County massacre of eight members of the Rodin family more than

seven years ago. His trial had been set for this May. It is now scheduled for January 6, 2025. Wagner's attorney, Mark Collins, says the defense needs more time to prepare, saying they only recently received 16,000 pages of transcripts related to the case. Collins also says another defense attorney had a knee replacement and a third attorney just had a baby. Prosecutors objected, saying the state is ready to proceed and the postponement delays justice for other members of the Rodin family. Governor Mike DeWine has called the trial of George Wagner one of the longest, if not the longest, in Ohio history. And so far, the investigation and the trials have cost taxpayers $4 million.

And remember, this is a not wealthy area of Ohio. So this is what they're putting out money-wise, taxpayer-wise for these murderers to get their trial and their day in court and to just run everybody around. It ain't cheap. It ain't cheap. You got to pay everybody that's in that room from the judge down to the sheriff. They're all making an hourly rate or salaries, whatever it might be. There's a lot of people in that room, a lot of moving parts. And you still paying their lawyers, right? So it's like, well, what's happening here? I know there's other expenses and I get it, but that seems ludicrous. $4 million seems absolutely ludicrous, but it makes sense. I mean, they're going to Montana, they're doing wiretaps. The investigation itself probably cost a ton of money, and in that I can see where the money was spent. But these trials should not be that expensive. But in August of 2023, a civil wrongful death lawsuit was filed by Tony Rodin. This is Chris Rodin Sr.'s brother. The lawsuit was seeking damages against members of the Wagner family, including Frederica, Billy's mother and the owner of Flying W Farms. Frederica's property,

just south of Pike County, is estimated to be worth $5 million. And civil lawsuits in Ohio require the plaintiff to ask for an amount above $25,000. And Brian Duncan, who's the Roden family attorney, he said, quote, in this situation, given the nature, the heinous nature of these actions, it would far exceed that. I mean, it arguably would be upwards of a million, I would assume, end quote. Frederica's lawyer insisted that the Wagner family matriarch is completely innocent. Not only that, but she believed her family was completely innocent, and she was stunned when her grandson Jake entered a guilty plea. This lawyer said, quote, Frederica is in her 80s, and we need to get closure on this case.

The plaintiff has no evidence presented that she was involved in any way, shape, or form, end quote. Frederica's attorney insisted also that she had no idea Jake had put the murder weapons in the pond on her property. However, during Angela Wagner's testimony, Angela did mention that after the murders, Frederica had offered to get rid of the Walmart shoes that Jake and George had worn on that night. So once again, I think there is a little bit more to Frederica than meets the eye.

Well, you mentioned this before too, because didn't you say in a previous episode that you weren't completely sure if Frederica knew about it prior to the event occurring and that maybe she came in after the fact. Do you still stand behind that where there's a world, she wasn't involved in the planning of it, But once she learned what had happened as a loyal family member, she was willing to help keep her family members out of prison. I think that's what happened. I don't think she knew about the planning of it. Absolutely not. I don't think they would tell her that. But once she figured out or was brought into the fold, then yes, she was willing to lend a hand. Lend a hand.

I mean, it makes sense. And I think we had a similar, and I get confused with the names, but Dan Markell, Charlie, what was Charlie's last name? Charlie Adelson. Charlie Adelson. What was his dad's name? Was it Harry Adelson? Charlie Adelson, Harvey. Harvey, thank you. Harvey Adelson, I think a very similar situation there where after the fact, more than likely, Harvey was brought into the fold, hearing what had happened and they couldn't avoid it anymore. The walls were closing in on him and Harry tried to help out.

I think it could be a similar situation here. Harvey. Harvey. Oh, what did I say? Harry. Harry. Harvey. Harvey.

Good old Harvey. Totally. Totally. Yeah. But the only thing about Frederica is this, I don't know, this family just seems a little bit more tight knit and I don't know. I mean, do you have enough to prove it in a court of law? No. Probably not. But if I were a betting man and we had access to the closed CCTV of the, of the Wagner property. Why do you say if I were a betting man when you and I both know very well you are?

I do like to bet once in a while, but I don't like to take bets unless I know I'm going to win. I'd rather bet on myself. So you want to make a good bet? I mean, listen, I went on Big Brother because I was betting on myself. But when it goes to the casinos and stuff,

I mean, I know the game. It's the house. There's a reason why casinos make- I've seen you have a lot of fun in casinos. But it's usually when I don't care and I never win. I'm the luckiest unlucky person on the planet. Honestly, I never win.

But I think if we had access to everything, we might find that Federica was a little bit more involved and maybe just chose not to participate even though she was overhearing things. But at this point, it really doesn't matter. Or like when the murders happened, she was like, hmm. Yeah. Oh, she knew immediately. Yeah. Just like when the murders happened, she was like, hmm. Yeah. Oh, she knew immediately. Yeah. Just like Wendy Adelson more than likely knew, in my opinion. Yeah.

Well, in September, the Rodin family actually dropped the wrongful death lawsuit, but they filed a notice of voluntary dismissal without prejudice, meaning they reserve the right to refile the same lawsuit at a later date. And Brian Duncan says they plan to do this, stating, quote, plaintiffs have every intention of refiling this action within the applicable time frame afforded by and through the laws of the state of Ohio. The parties in the criminal cases, inclusive of the prosecutors, are essentially prohibited from speaking and or otherwise sharing any information with us by virtue of the gag orders. Thus, we are unable to complete our own investigation until the gag orders are lifted and or criminal cases are finalized, end quote. And this makes sense because they are currently in the middle of all these trials. Billy hasn't even gone to trial yet. So in these cases, there's going to be people who, like he said, including the

prosecutors, who are not allowed to speak about the case as it's going on. So they want to wait until after everything is settled and then they're going to refile. And I think that's a great idea because I would love to find out what they find out in discovery about Miss Frederica Wagner. about it before, with the threshold required for a civil trial as opposed to a criminal trial, the threshold's much lower. So as far as what you need to prove to have the lawsuit or the trial go in your favor, it's much more likely in a civil trial with the preponderance of evidence being the ultimate threshold you have to get over. And why wouldn't you wait until all of the criminal trials are adjudicated so that you have everything that was presented there and you can use that testimony in the civil trial if needed, right? Especially if you get convictions when the threshold is much higher, proof beyond a reasonable doubt, then you can use that testimony in your civil trial, which to double

dip and not only get the people who have already been convicted, but maybe get the other people where there wasn't enough evidence to get them convicted of the same crime. So it makes sense to pull back, wait for everything to come out, and then base your charges or your allegations on the full story, the full picture. As they mentioned, once the gag orders are lifted, they have all the evidence. They'll find it all in discovery once they're able to speak with people who can't currently speak under the gag order and develop a complete case and know that regardless of the outcome, they had all the ammo. They had all the ammo and wherever the chips fall, they fall. But it's a fascinating case. I'm glad we

covered it. It was a lot and you did a great job with it because trying to follow it was difficult at first. Once we started to know all the players, it became much more clear for me. Yeah, I agree. And honestly, the map, I had the map up the entire time and then I had my notes here. If you're watching on YouTube, it was a lot, but I feel like it was a good case for us to cover. It's a lot different than cases we would cover. And you and I spoke about this because this was very different than what we normally do on Crime Weekly, because a lot of the times you'll go into it and we don't give the ending away so

much later where this one, and we talked about it off camera, you went into it kind we don't give the ending away till much later where this one, and we talked about it off camera, you went into it kind of giving us the ending, but then filled in all the middle section of this story throughout the series, which is cool. It's a change up and I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say, whether you're on audio or video after the fact, what do you like about the series? Did you enjoy it? Do you want to see us do more series like this where you get the overall picture in episode one and two, and then we go and break down all the evidence? I feel like I have done that before.

You definitely have, but it's not often. It's not often. I feel like you did it with Dan Markell. I think I did, yeah, because it's just a crazy thing, and you want to build up. You want people to know so that while they're hearing about the Adelson family or while they're hearing about the Wagner family, they have it in mind like, OK, I know where this is going. And I'm being cognizant of the details that sort of line up with what these people will eventually do, because some of it was subtle, you really gave a lot away in episode one, though. And even Markel, like we didn't get exposed to the hit man, the hit men. There was a couple of players that you didn't mention at all until like episode two or three. So, yeah, similar. But I felt like this one. I said it to you. Remember we were talking. I was like, okay, let's do that. So my final words on it, because I mean, we know the outcome of this case is we didn't mention them a lot. We talked about the Wagners a lot throughout this series, because we were really trying to break

down how they planned this whole thing and how they were ultimately apprehended. But just to bring it back home to the people that really matter, Christopher Roden, Gary Roden, Frankie Roden, Hannah Gilley, Kenneth Roden, Dana Roden, Hannah Mae Roden, and Christopher Roden. Eight lives taken for no reason whatsoever. No longer with us. All for the most part. I mean, 16, 20 years old, 20 years old. And then you have two young children that are without their mother and

fortunately their father, but without their mother, just a really terrible situation. I mean, you've got three, three, because Hannah Gilley's son was sleeping on the couch, remember? And then her baby was sleeping between her and then Kylie. And then the other daughter, you're right. Yeah. So you got three children, now motherless and fatherless. Although one of the children has a father. Has the father, you might have, I think you mentioned already, has the other father come in and helped out with the children or? Yeah, like, yeah, of Hannah Gilley's older child? Yes, yes. The one that Jake thought was his, but wasn't. No, no, that was Hannah Roden's child. Okay, got it. Got it. So the father of Hannah Roden's daughter daughter kylie who's a few four days old

that's who jake thought was his child and it was it was charlie gilly's child who was hannah gilly's brother we went over that now it's coming back to me yeah that's a whole different we won't even open pandora's box there but but yeah, I'm thinking about their family, an entire generation basically, you know, changed forever and half of them, more than half of them wiped out. And I think it's good to come back to them and make it about the victims of this case. And the good news here is they got some justice. The people responsible for this, for the most part, have been held accountable for what they did. And most of them will never see the light of day again. They'll die in prison. So, and if they do get out, it's going to be hopefully-

If they do get out, their parole officer hasn't even been born yet. Right, exactly. So justice served, although it doesn't really mean anything to them, but at least people have answered for what they did. So great series and looking forward to the next one. Any final words from you? You know, great case. I feel terrible about it. I was doing a lot of kind of reading about the victims throughout this whole kind of case. And, you know, I talked about them in the beginning, but I think they were a great family.

You got Chris Sr. and his wife, Dana. They were divorced, but they were still great family. You got Chris Sr. and his wife Dana. They were divorced, but they were still best friends. They still knew that overall keeping their family together, working together, being good parents, good co-parents, and good friends still was important to the overall happiness and well-adjustment of their children, even though their children were older. And they could have been like, well, screw you, Dana. Screw you, Chris. We don't like each other anymore. They stuck together. They stuck together as a family. They took care of each other, which is exactly why the Wagners were terrified of them as a whole. Because even though the Wagners are out here with their money

and their reputation, and they think that they're the big men on campus strolling around this town like they own it, literally. The Rodens had something the Wagners never had, and that was true loyalty and true love for each other. And that's what kept them solid. That's what kept them together. And that's what made them an indomitable force to anybody who would come against them. And the Wagners were threatened by them. And that's why they took them all out. And at the end of the day, that's more a testament to the rodents and their strength and their loyalty and love for each other than it is to anything else. Very well said. Final word from me, and I don't think I've ever done this in two years. I will say, because we get a lot of complaints about ads sometimes where it's a

two-hour episode and people are upset that there's four or five ads, which when you break it down is not bad. This episode was a little shorter because we had to wrap up this case. So I do apologize that the episodes are a little bit more on top of each other. We were around 10 to 12 minutes per break, which is still not bad when you look at other podcasts. But I know there will be some people going, oh my God, there were so many ads. There was the same amount of ads, just a little bit quicker, but we're conscious of your time, but we got to keep the lights on. So that's how we're doing it. We hope you guys appreciate it. We hope you guys liked the episode. Everyone stay safe out there. We will see you next week with a new Crime Weekly News

and a new series. Be safe out there. Have a good night. Bye.