Crime Weekly - S3 Ep198: Leah Roberts: Desolation Peak (Part 2)

Episode Date: April 12, 2024

 Leah Roberts was five foot, three inches with short dark hair and a beauty mark above the right side of her lips. Leah’s life took a pretty standard path, starting with a happy childhood in Durham..., North Carolina where she lived with her parents and two older siblings, sister Kara and brother Heath, until she began attending college at North Carolina State University in nearby Raleigh. Because of unexpected events and tragedies, Leah would change direction in her early 20’s and begin a journey of self exploration that would take her on an impromptu road trip. On March 9th, 2000, Leah Roberts left her Durham, North Carolina and began driving West. Nine days later, her white Jeep Cherokee was found wrecked and abandoned at the base of the Cascade Mountains, 80 miles north of Seattle, Washington. Leah was not inside the Jeep, and to this day she still has not been found, but a later examination of the vehicle would show the engine had been tampered with and maybe someone had targeted Leah Roberts as she was out in the world, trying to find herself. Use code CRIMEWEEKLY at www.CrimeCon.com for a discount on your CrimeCon 2024 Nashville tickets! Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. DailyHarvest.com/CrimeWeekly - Get $30 off your first box and FREE shipping! 2. ZipRecruiter.com/CrimeWeekly - Try Ziprecruiter for FREE! 3. Smalls.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 50% off your first order and FREE shipping! 4. SkylightFrame.com/Weekly - Get 15% off your purchase! 5. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!

Transcript
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Starting point is 00:00:00 Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So we're diving into the second and final part of the Leah Roberts disappearance case. And unless you have something to talk about at the top of the show, we can dive right in. Just in regards to it being the last part, this is a shorter series as well. And we've been doing, we did a one-off, we did a two-parter. We do have some plans for you guys. We're going to go back to the Crime Weekly roots. We're going to have some big deep dives coming up very soon.
Starting point is 00:00:45 And we think when you learn the case that we're working on, it is one that most of you will be familiar with on the surface, but just like some of the other cases that we've done where you know the name, but you don't know all the details. And that's what we're going to do. We're really going to break this case down. I obviously know the headline of it, but I've never researched the details of it. So we're going to go back to the roots of Crime Weekly and really get into one. And it's been a few weeks since we had a deep, deep dive. And this is a case that's been requested by some of you and it was a big undertaking and Stephanie
Starting point is 00:01:19 was looking for the right time to do it. And we think that time is now. So I'm excited for you guys to learn about it. You told me in a text message when I was like, oh, okay, all right, it's happening. And you're like, it's happening. I'm like, okay, let's do it. So that's coming around. We won't spoil it for you tonight. We'll talk about it next week.
Starting point is 00:01:41 But after this episode, we'll finish out this series. We'll be diving into a deeper series, a complete 360 degree look at this case. And it'll be fun. It'll be good to get into. Yeah, I'm actually very excited because this is a case I was always invested in, even before I started doing true crime. It's one of those cases. And you've never covered it.
Starting point is 00:02:02 Never. I've never covered it. I've been on YouTube. That's the crazy part because it is a very well-known case. So look forward to that. But that's all I had. This was a fascinating case, Leah Roberts, as far as where we left last week with, you know, the car being found right side up, but clearly damaged on multiple sides, suggesting that it was in a rollover. As you had said, no sign of Leah anywhere,
Starting point is 00:02:26 no sign of the cat anywhere. So some questions, but it did appear that maybe the pillow was up in the window. And we went over a lot of scenarios as far as, you know, could someone have been in the car with her? Was it staged to look this way? So I left with a lot more questions than answers after part one. So I'm looking to see where this goes now. Yeah. I'm excited to dive in because there's more that you're not going to expect. I figured based on the way you were saying it last week, I figured there's going to be more developments in this one that may shed some light or may actually just create more questions than answers. That does happen too, where you're like, I thought I had it. And then you hit me with this curve ball. So
Starting point is 00:03:08 I'm looking forward to it, but at the same time, I'm not, if that makes sense. Yes. And I think I'm coming down with a cold, so I'm a little sniffly, a little congested. So if I sound a bit different, that is why. But let's get started. So I kind of want to talk really quickly about the summer of 1956, when author Jack Kerouac spent 63 days as a U.S. Forest Service fire lookout at Desolation Peaks lookout station in the North Cascade Mountains of Whatcom County in Washington state. Now, his time there resulted in his three-part work, Desolation Angels, which read more like a journal than a novel. Kerouac also talked about this area in another novel,
Starting point is 00:03:53 The Dharma Bums, where he described his surroundings in such an attractive and appealing way it's no surprise other free spirits would want to follow in his footsteps. He wrote, quote, It was miles and miles of unbelievable mountains on all horizons in the wild broken clouds, Mount Olympus and Mount Baker, a giant orange sash in the gloom over the Pacific ward skies. Now I was beginning to see the cascades on the northeast horizon, unbelievable jags, and twisted rock and snow covered immensities, enough to make you gulp, end quote. Western Washington University professor Christopher Wise talks about how there's even a belief that Jack Kerouac spent time in Bellingham, Washington, and he said, quote,
Starting point is 00:04:34 when Kerouac was in Whatcom County, he had an encounter with a culture, with an experience of nature that he had never had before, end quote. When Leah Roberts went missing, Detective Mark Joseph, who was leading the investigation at that time, he told the media that he was trying to find out if Kerouac had mentioned any specific places in Whatcom County, hoping to figure out what Leah had been trying to communicate in that kind of cryptic letter that she left behind, and also hoping to get some insight into where Leah had been heading that fateful day. Leah's Jeep was found in a ravine off of Mount Baker, and the Desolation Peak fire lookout is also on Mount Baker, about 100 miles from where the vehicle was located. Desolation Peak is known as one of the tougher lookouts to
Starting point is 00:05:17 reach, but it is worth it due to its incredible view and because it's known as a place that heavily inspired Jack Kerouac. Now, Leah's coffee shop friend, Janine Quiller, said, quote, she was talking about wanting to go up on Desolation Peak and how she really wanted to go off by herself and figure a lot of things out and figure out what kind of person she wanted to be because she really didn't know anymore, end quote. Real quick, I will say, hearing all this, it really does start to solidify the idea that for the most part, up until very close to the end of this story, she more than likely was in control of what she was doing, the behavior, the direction she was going.
Starting point is 00:05:57 Because this does line up with what not only we're speculating based on her love for Jack Kerouac, but also what friends are telling us as well. Like to the detail that you just mentioned, like she wanted to go to this, what'd you call it? Destillation Peak. Am I saying that right? And we're right there. We're right. We're close by to it. So a hundred miles, you said, I mean, that's not like right around the corner. Obviously it's still a little relative. It's still a distance, but it could have been on her way there. Yeah, correct. It's still in the general vicinity of where she's heading, which is in line with everything we've heard in this story. So and to the details you said, as far as like wanting to go alone, right, wanting to experience it by herself, which is more suggestive that she wasn't necessarily meeting someone there or going on this road trip with someone else.
Starting point is 00:06:44 Is there another party that we're not aware of that was with her the entire time necessarily meeting someone there or going on this road trip with someone else? Like, is there another party that we're not aware of that was with her the entire time who may be responsible for what happened to her? Not only does it not align with what she was telling friends as far as what she wanted to do, but we also have some indisputable evidence with the video footage, seeing her by herself. So you couple those two factors together, what friends and family are telling you, and then also what you have right in front of you with the video. And it does start to formulate a picture of Leah was by herself. She was on this journey alone. And more than likely, if there's foul play involved here,
Starting point is 00:07:21 which it does appear to be the case, it was someone who wasn't intended to be part of this journey originally. Yeah, because Janine Quiller said she wanted to go up there alone. And that does seem like kind of if you're trying to find yourself, if you're trying to figure out who you are because you don't know anymore, it's probably not a companion type expedition, right? Yeah. No, I mean, I actually, as we're talking about this story, you hear about these individuals that go out to the mountains and the desert by themselves. I consider myself someone who's, you know, will go into something that may, some people wouldn't do. I've definitely been experiencing things where people think I'm crazy
Starting point is 00:07:58 for, you know, the profession I was in, but going up a mountain or going out into the desert alone like that, not something that I've ever dreamed or thought of doing personally. So I wouldn't, I'd want to, right? Shocker. It sounds- Surprise to no one. It sounds like a very-
Starting point is 00:08:17 Cathartic? Yeah, cathartic sort of activity, like go up to this huge peak and go to a place where one of your favorite authors found themselves and hope to find yourself. But overall, I wouldn't go up there alone just because first of all, I'm not a hiker. And I've tried to hike. I've tried to hike to places by myself before, and I always got lost and then scared. And I just think that it's not something I would do because of how paranoid I am. But she's what, 22 years old. She's not a true crime podcaster or YouTuber. She doesn't really maybe recognize the dangers. It's also the year 2000. You know, it's not as prevalent, I think, as it is now, 24 years later. So as a 22 year old in her position at that time, would I have done that alone? Maybe. Yeah, maybe. So before we continue, just a quick question.
Starting point is 00:09:08 I know it's always hard for you because you know the arc of the story where you're taking us. But is it fair to say that based on what you know, without going into the details of it right now, that more than likely for most of this journey, the idea that someone was with her the entire time that could be involved, that we're looking for, that unknown person, that theory is becoming less and less likely. I agree that it's becoming less and less likely that she went there with somebody or that she, in my opinion, it's not likely that she went there to meet somebody. Okay. Okay. And that was something that we were dabbling in and considering last episode. So, OK. And that was something that we were dabbling in and considering last episode., they didn't know these new friends she was making and she had no problem telling them about these new friends. So why would she not say, oh, yeah, actually, I'm meeting a new friend out
Starting point is 00:10:13 in Washington state? You know, I don't think that she was somebody who would purposely hide what she was doing because she didn't seem to think that she owed anybody an explanation or that she was doing anything wrong by doing this. However, if her friends and her sister and things had given her shit before or been like, Leah, you've got to be more careful. You can't just meet up with strangers that you don't really know. Maybe then she would have held left everything as it was. And all of those things would have been found after her disappearance, but they weren't. Exactly. And I'm glad you brought that up because that's where my head's at. We got to think about 2000. We talked about it last episode. She's not walking around with an iPhone at this point, more than likely, but digital communications before and during this event. Was she communicating
Starting point is 00:11:23 with anybody beforehand making these plans? Doesn't appear that way. Whether it was email or cell phone text, doesn't appear that way. Pager, whatever it is, wasn't happening. And then I think you mentioned it last episode that she really didn't use her phone at all during the trip. So if she were meeting someone, I think common sense, which in a lot of these investigations is what you have to do, just look at it from a, was definitely no indications of it during her trip because if there were, law enforcement would know about it. Yes. They would have found something, right? This is not somebody who's like, I mean, as far as we know, right, because this is one of the theories,
Starting point is 00:12:17 maybe she went out there and purposely disappeared. From what we know, this isn't somebody who went out and purposely disappeared. Therefore, why would she be covering her tracks to hide those things, not knowing that law enforcement or her friends and family are going to be looking for signs of where she went to? Yeah. And from what I know, just surface level, and we could talk about that theory more. It doesn't seem like Leah was the type that would go to this extent to fake her death. If she was thinking about something like that, it would probably be pretty obvious to everyone. She'd just do it, you know, she'd just do it and disappear. And then one day she'd show back up. I agree. I agree. So when law enforcement found Leah's white
Starting point is 00:12:54 1993 Jeep Cherokee, they determined that because of the speed the vehicle was traveling when it plunged over the embankment, along with the extensive damage to the Jeep, the person inside would have certainly been injured since no blood was found in the vehicle or in the surrounding area and no contact damage was found inside, police theorized that the Jeep had been unoccupied at the time of the crash. However, this was not an ironclad theory. Sergeant Kevin McFadden from the Whatcom County Sheriff's Office said, quote, there's nothing to indicate that the wheel was tied and that it was pushed off the road. We couldn't find any marks on the back to indicate that anyone had pushed it to where it was. If you had somebody driving the vehicle and they jumped
Starting point is 00:13:33 out, you'd have taken your life into your own hands trying to jump out of the vehicle at that speed, end quote. So this contradicting evidence confused law enforcement because they were left with, you know, very conflicting conclusions. Someone had to be driving the Jeep when it went over the embankment, but nobody could have done that without being seriously injured and leaving some sign that they'd been in the vehicle. Yeah, it's troubling. And this goes back to Daniel Robinson, right? It's a very similar case in that sense where it doesn't appear that a person who was in that vehicle would be able to walk away from it
Starting point is 00:14:05 under their own power. And yet we have seen miracles happen before. We don't know what the extent of the injuries would be exactly. A biomechanical engineer would probably be better equipped to dive into that. But again, a lot of variables could, you could have a miracle situation where they walk away from it unscathed for the most part, or it could be a concussion where she's disoriented as she's exiting the vehicle and maybe she's going the wrong direction instead of towards the road. There's so many different scenarios that you could play out in your head, but it is interesting to think that this vehicle at the time when it went over, you did hint last episode, we won't go there now, that there might have
Starting point is 00:14:45 been some tampering with the vehicle, which is very concerning and even more suggestive of an outside party being involved. But just at this point, I do appreciate that law enforcement is saying, yeah, we know what it looks like, but we're not willing to say. And I think I said this last episode, there is a world where she was in the car and she got thrown from the vehicle and you can get thrown a hundred, 150 feet from the vehicle. Could she have sustained serious injuries and then do some type of animal activity? There's not much left behind. I don't want to be morbid. I don't want to be disrespectful, but nobody can sit here and tell me definitively that couldn't have happened. That is absolutely a possibility. I'm not saying it's the strongest
Starting point is 00:15:29 possibility, but it's an option and we have to explore all options. So I'm glad law enforcement is pointing out the fact, hey, listen, guys, we see how this looks. We see what it suggests, but it is some stuff that's about it that's confusing to us because you would expect to see other things if it were one particular type of crime. We're not seeing all those elements. So either someone did a crappy job of covering their tracks, or this is a situation where it was a one out of a hundred chance for it to happen this way. It's a freak accident, and we're just missing the last piece of this puzzle to find Leah. But here's the thing. If she'd been in the car, in the Jeep,
Starting point is 00:16:09 when it went over the embankment and she wasn't horribly injured, you'd assume based on the multiple rollovers that she was wearing her seatbelt, right? She could have been ejected right away after the first toss. then not wearing her seatbelt. Yeah Yeah, i've seen it. Yeah Like the first rollover your body get you get thrown out the window And the truck goes through this massive rollover four or five more times And and you're on the ground somewhere, I guess I I Really the first rollover think about it. Think about centrifugal force, right?
Starting point is 00:16:46 Like your body is going in the same motion. I'm going to think about centrifugal force. I've heard the term. I have no idea what it means, by the way. Well, I mean, like your body is going to be sucked into like you ever see that arcade, you know, not the arcade, but that circus ride where it's like this big circular thing where you put your back to it. The carnival ride. It starts to spin really fast. Ours is called the UFO.
Starting point is 00:17:08 Right. And that's centrifugal force where you're not tied in or strapped in anyway. Right. Yeah. But your body doesn't move even if you wanted it to. Right. So if the force as you're turning diverts towards the window direction, your body is going to be sucked out.
Starting point is 00:17:23 Like because that's the way your body wants to go naturally. You can't fight it. And almost like a vacuum motion where the car is spinning, the centrifugal force, the direction goes towards the window. Nah, but the windows, the windows were broken during the rollovers. Exactly. So it wouldn't have been broken during the first rollover enough for her to go through and not leave any blood.
Starting point is 00:17:42 She could have broke it. And not leave any blood on the window? No, actually, it wouldn't leave any blood. More than likely, it wouldn't, especially if she had clothing on. It's possible it wouldn't leave any blood, especially if it was her back. Again, we're throwing out theories, which I love, by the way. This is what you have to do. And I promise you, this is what detectives are doing around the table.
Starting point is 00:18:01 They're throwing out these ideas and they're trying to dispute those ideas and discredit them to say, listen, based on the evidence, that's not possible what you're saying, Derek. But I don't think based on what we've talked about so far, if I were to go in there and say, based on the force of that rollover, she could have been punched right out that window and got thrown in a direction where she might've been seriously injured fatally. And she might've been out there for a little bit and the animals picked up her scent and dragged her off somewhere. Now you would expect to find blood. I can't argue that, but it's just because you expect it doesn't mean it has to be present.
Starting point is 00:18:39 It could have, it could be a situation where there's, they either didn't find the location where she was was dragged from or there wasn't as much blood as you would suspect. Could be internal injuries. Yeah. I mean, I figure if you're like rolling over in the car, you don't have a seatbelt on, you go through the window and you break it, you're going to leave some sort of blood, DNA, tissue, something on the window. You would think so. You would think so. Listen, I'm throwing it out there because we got to keep all options open. There's a reason why we haven't solved this case. All right, let's take
Starting point is 00:19:08 our first break and we'll be right back to discuss this further. Okay, so the sheriff's office brought in sniffer dogs. They also brought in search and rescue teams and they did a complete grid search of the area. Two weeks were spent carefully looking through a large radius of dense forest around the crash site and crews searched up and down Canyon Creek Road, but they never found any evidence that anyone had left the Jeep and walked away, and they never found any sign of Leah Roberts. So the sheriff's office claimed, quote, they don't have any indication that she went further into the wood line than the vehicle. Whoever left the vehicle must have walked back towards the road where the vehicle went in.
Starting point is 00:19:52 And from there, there's no indication of which way they went, end quote. Also remember that there was clothes, CDs, shoes and a guitar strewn about the accident site. But there were still blankets hung up in the broken and blown out windows of the Jeep almost as if they'd been placed there after the crash. Whatcom County Sheriff's Office deputies contacted the police department in Raleigh, North Carolina, and they gave them the Jeep's license plate number, and this is when the crashed vehicle
Starting point is 00:20:19 became a missing persons case, and Leah's siblings were informed that her Jeep had been located. Kara and Heath, which is Leah's sister and brother, they obviously immediately made travel plans to get to Washington state so they could be on the spot to help look for their sister and be close if law enforcement had any news. After local police examined the Jeep, the FBI became involved because the accident had occurred on national forest land. Under a floor mat inside the vehicle, Leah's mother's engagement ring was found, and everyone who knew her said that Leah always wore that ring.
Starting point is 00:20:51 She never took it off. She would never take it off willingly. She treasured it above most other things based on its connection to her late parents and their loving marriage. Leah's friends and family insisted she would never take that ring off voluntarily, yet it was found under the floor mat. Once again, the Jeep was processed for hair, fibers, and blood, but nothing was found that suggested foul play. You have to take the family at their word because they knew her better than the investigators ever will. However, is it possible she took it off because she was driving for a long period of time and the circulation was bothering her, so she took it off and put it in the cup holder? No.
Starting point is 00:21:37 Listen, here's what I'll say. You say no, but this is also a woman who, without telling anyone, hopped into her car and drove her across the country. Not something that her family members and friends expected. Fair? Yes. Well, no, no, they did kind of expect. I mean, they don't expect they don't expect anything from her. Most of her friends and family were like, we weren't surprised when she picked up and
Starting point is 00:21:59 went on this impromptu road trip. So, no, I wouldn't say that it was unexpected or that anybody was like, oh, this is so unlike Leah. So no. And I mean, like rings don't cut off your circulation like that. I mean, I've had a watch or something where I have definitely taken it off because it was uncomfortable and I was writing for a long period of time or typing on the computer and it was clacking off the computer. Yeah, that's a little different because your ring's not going to clack off the computer and it's not going to be like in the way of anything. It's on your finger. What I would say is this, no one can tell me or anyone with 100% certainty that she didn't take that ring off herself. Now that said, if it was something of foul play, I would expect two things
Starting point is 00:22:42 based on what you said there. I would expect to potentially find DNA from an unknown party, something in that vehicle that would suggest someone else was in that vehicle with her. And if there was some form of assault or an attack or just someone else who took her, I would expect that ring, if she had never taken it off, to be with her at the time of the incident. And then whatever happened to her, that's where the ring would be disposed, not inside the vehicle. One more thing. And I know you're, I got, you've got your finger up. One other thing I wanted to point out that we haven't really talked about, which wouldn't align with the ring, but we've talked about the idea that this was a
Starting point is 00:23:19 tragic accident. She went down the embankment and fell out of, you know, was thrown from the vehicle. We talked about the idea that it was staged and that she was thrown down. You know, the vehicle was thrown down into that ditch, into that area to make it seem like it was a tragic accident. The another scenario is if she was in the car, which you would expect to see the seatbelt, all that stuff we've talked about. It won't be the dead horse. What if she did survive the crash, was relatively unscathed, unharmed, a little, you know, a little bit disoriented, but was able to make it back to the road. And that's when she eventually met her attacker who happened to be driving by. So check this out. What if she gets in this crash?
Starting point is 00:24:00 She is unscathed. And she's like, oh, I'm going to go and, you know, I guess try to get out of here. And maybe she takes the ring off and hides it under the floor mat, hoping to come back for it just in case she meets somebody who tries to rob her. I don't know. But she never takes the ring off, Stephanie. You get what I'm saying? I get it.
Starting point is 00:24:21 And also something you said, and I've been, I think it's a nice reminder. I keep thinking like National Park, like this is an open area to rain with like rocks and dirt. This was a wooded area. This is Washington state. As well as we search an area, we can miss things. Now you have the dogs, you have law enforcement, you have personnel, you got a lot of people involved. So the likelihood that they missed her, slim to none, but it is possible. Yeah, but there's no blood or anything. Like they look. I know, but she got thrown into the tree line.
Starting point is 00:24:54 They brought sniffer dogs and they checked the tree line. They checked. They said they checked it as best as they could is the way you worded it in there. No, I said it was very dense and they did a very thorough search for two weeks. I didn't say as best they could. I never said that. I'm throwing words in there. It sounded like. So, but even I've tried my best at things. I, when I was in narcotics, I was in narcotics for almost six years. I would rip houses apart to find the drugs and I would search a room and I prided myself on and finding anything that was in there. There have been times where I'd search a room and go, yeah, this room's clear. We usually have a secondary guy go in there, just do a, you know, another search. There were times where someone else would go, Hey, got something.
Starting point is 00:25:32 You know, I just have, I didn't try to miss it. I just did. But the ring is an interesting little tidbit of information here because it makes you think a couple of different angles. We know what she attacked somewhere else. And during that attack, the ring was taken off and her accused, her offender put the ring and other items in the car to make it look like she was in there, not knowing that she would never take the ring off because they wouldn't know that behavior about her. So that could be suggestive that the car was,
Starting point is 00:26:00 you know, this was done after the fact and the car was staged to look like this. And the offender, not knowing her patterns of behavior, place was done after the fact and the car was staged to look like this and the offender not knowing her patterns of behavior, placed the ring in the vehicle to give the impression that she was there. I mean, it's her vehicle. Why would you need to give the impression she was there? All her belongings are in it. Don't you think they would take that to make it look like it was a robbery so that nobody's looking in the right direction? Not saying these guys are smart, but overall they could have placed that ring in the car thinking it would solidify what they were trying to accomplish. And in reality, that little piece of that nugget of information was the thing that told her family something's not right here because she wouldn't do that.
Starting point is 00:26:38 You know, they wouldn't know that, though. Yes. I don't know. It's so clear. That's what I'm saying. Like, it doesn't really add up. Like, we can come up with all these theories and we can be like, well, maybe she, I was even thinking like maybe she's carjacked and they're like drive and she takes the ring off and puts it under the floor mat knowing that her friends and family know she would never take it off. So it would give them some indication that she was in danger. You know, like her trying to sign, send a sign of any kind to let people know, like, I did not disappear of my own volition. A lot of scenarios with this one. That's why it's so mysterious.
Starting point is 00:27:07 At this point, all law enforcement really has to go on is that ticket stub. Remember, they found this ticket stub in this, like, memory box in her car. And that ticket stub was for the 2.10 p.m. showing of American Beauty at the Bellas Fair Mall in Bellingham, Washington, five days prior to her Jeep being found. This ticket stub at least showed where Leah had been, and so the police, along with Leah's siblings, Kara and Heath, they went to Bellingham to find out if anyone had seen Leah before she got in her car and headed to the mountains. Missing persons flyers were printed out, and Kara and Heath began putting them all over town, including at the mall. Now, no one at the movie theater remembered seeing Leah.
Starting point is 00:27:45 So her sister, Kara, decided to walk over to the food court, thinking that Leah may have gotten some lunch before or after the movie. Now, Leah was a vegetarian. The majority of the options at the food court, obviously, we know they're fast food. You know, I could name a couple. Taco Bell, Sbarro, McDonald's, Burger King. You know, not places of vegetarian. Stop, you're getting me hungry.
Starting point is 00:28:04 I know, right? I would love some McDonald's french fries right now. It's, Burger King. You know, not places of vegetarian. Stop, you're getting me hungry. I know, right? I would love some McDonald's french fries right now. It's late right now. And this would be, I'm about to door dash some McDonald's here right now. I'm about to door dash some McDonald's too, man. So obviously really none of these places are going to be adequate for a vegetarian to eat at.
Starting point is 00:28:19 You know, it's very, you got to make sure even the oil that they're being cooked in hasn't had oil. Like if you go to McDonald's and order French fries, they're cooking the French fries maybe sometimes in the same oil that they're cooking the chicken nuggets. So you can't, as a vegetarian, eat at these places. So Kara was looking around. She sees all these fast food places, places her sister's not going to eat at with the exception of one sit-down restaurant in the mall, and it's called Elephant and Castle. So she goes there, and she starts talking to people. Now, staff members at the restaurant, they remembered Leah, and they told Kara that Leah had come in on the afternoon of
Starting point is 00:28:55 the 13th, the same day as the movie, and she'd sat at the bar for lunch. She sat between two men, men she didn't know and who didn't know each other, and she struck up a conversation with both of these men. This is interesting. And we talked about this with the movie ticket, the last episode, where it's one of those situations. This is probably the last. We have the gas station. We have this. This was after the gas station, correct?
Starting point is 00:29:23 Or was this before gas station? This would have been after the gas station, correct? Or was this before a gas station? This would have been after the gas station. Okay. So this is our last known place where she stopped, where she would have had potential interactions with individuals that were not personally known to her, individuals who could portray themselves as friendly people and just being nice. But in reality, they have ulterior motives that she's unaware of. And remember, Leah talks to everybody, right? Leah talks to everyone, her coffee shop friends.
Starting point is 00:29:52 She would engage in a conversation, probably tell these individuals not only who she was, but that she's alone, you know, that she's where she's heading, where she's from. No, she has no friends out here. She's doing this trip by herself. Yes, because she would tell people that. Right. And these are all things that as we're going through this case, things that you guys have to be aware of. If someone ever approaches you like this and you are alone, it's okay to lie.
Starting point is 00:30:20 It's okay to lie and say your friend is out in the car waiting for you and that you know you're just grabbing a couple quick things and you're you're some you're so-and-so your significant other is right out and you know in the other aisle grabbing some milk yeah uh whatever you have to do and there's even apps now where you can have fake uh facetime calls and things brought up where it could be a significant other asking what time you're going to be home they have those yeah they have those absolutely and there's even like youtube videos where the person will say, Hey babe, are you coming home soon? And then on that screen, it tells you what to say. So you say that back to him and then it aligns with the script. And you could be doing that in
Starting point is 00:30:56 the back of an Uber to give the Uber driver or the Lyft driver, the impression that someone is waiting for you to arrive at the destination. So any deviance from that or any type of deviation from where you're supposed to be going, this person would be aware of it and be on top of it. So it could serve as a deterrent. That's what I'm saying here, where if you're at a bar or a restaurant, they more than likely are friendly people just engaging in a conversation, but you never know. And it doesn't hurt to at least give the impression that you're waiting for someone or someone's already there or you're meeting someone so that this individual does not know that you're alone. Now, we don't know if she did that for sure. Well, we don't know if she talked So I'm not sitting here saying without a shadow of a doubt that that's exactly what Leah did, where she kind of
Starting point is 00:31:48 diarrhea of the mouth told them everything. But I do think it's a lesson that we can all learn from whether she did it or not, because if this is the last time that she stopped before whatever happened, happened, then it's, it's a strong possibility that someone approached her or was watching from a distance, maybe overheard some conversations and decided to, what do I always say? What's the phrase? Victim of opportunity, right? Someone who could be at that cafe or that food court who doesn't know that Lee is about to walk into their life, but they've had these urges, these thoughts over the past couple of months or years, and they've had these urges, these thoughts over the past couple of months or years, and they see someone walk in and they overhear a conversation and think to
Starting point is 00:32:30 themselves, this person's not from here. Nobody's going to even know they're gone. This is an opportunity for me. Or even one of these guys that she's talking to, right? Or one of these guys that she's talking to. That's the more obvious choice, right? I'm even thinking second or third degree situations where someone that wasn't seen by a witness could have overheard that conversation. And that's why we haven't identified them because they were just an outsider lurking in the distance. But yeah, I'm actually interested to hear about these two individuals because now this is the first time we're hearing about someone else
Starting point is 00:33:05 being with or at least conversating with with leah basically what three days before how many days before this all went down well we don't know when it went down right because we know when her car was found the 18th but the 13th which is this day the ticket was is when the ticket was and it's the last known location of Leah. So it's most likely that she went out to the mountains that day. Her car just wasn't found until several days later. Gotcha. Her car was found on the 18th.
Starting point is 00:33:33 So it's very possible, as you're laying it out here, the whole ordeal happened that same day for all we know. So really interested. Want to hear more about these two individuals. I'm hoping they were able to track them down. I'm hoping they were able to speak with them. they admitted that they had seen and spoken to Leah that day. They said she talked to them about Jack Kerouac and her planned road trip. However, one of these men remembered something that the other didn't. In fact, he remembered something that no one else who was present in the restaurant that afternoon remembered. So one of the men actually reached out to the police when he heard they were looking for anyone who'd seen Leah during her time in Bellingham. And he said Leah was
Starting point is 00:34:28 a warm and talkative person. She was willing to open up and share details about her life. And this caller let the police know that there was another man there on her other side. So on the other side of Leah. And this other man was contacted by the police. And he said, yeah, I was there. I talked to her. I saw the dude you're talking about and you've already talked to. But actually, there was a third man present that day. And Leah had not only spoken to this guy who the customer remembered Leah referring to as Barry, but Leah and Barry left the restaurant together, according to this second man. Now, keep in mind, the first man who called the police and actually was like, hey, I saw her. He didn't remember a third man being there. No other customers or staff remembered a third man being there. But yet the second man does say that he saw this third man, Barry, there with Leah, and they left together. And this second man was able to give such a detailed description of Barry that a police sketch artist was brought in
Starting point is 00:35:32 and a composite sketch was created. Additionally, a few days after Leah's Jeep was found crashed, a man called the Whatcom County Sheriff's Office to report that his wife had seen Leah Roberts disoriented and confused, not remembering who she was, walking around a gas station in Everett, Washington, which is close to Seattle. Now, after disclosing this tiny piece of information, the male caller seemed to get anxious and panicky, and he hung up before giving his name. And according to the authorities, they believe his report was genuine, but they weren't sure why he'd gotten so spooked. I don't know why they think it's genuine. If they also don't know who this dude is or why he called, gave this information and hung up. He said it was a Sunoco station. I would assume police could go into the Sunoco stations in Everett, Washington and pull surveillance and see if Leo was there.
Starting point is 00:36:20 If they had cameras. But why would they think it was genuine? Why would they think his sighting was genuine what would give them that belief would this gas station be in close proximity to the crash site no it's everett washington how far is everett from from where she was located all right so uh 61 miles an hour drive so i guess not I guess not super far though. But could you, again, disoriented and confused. She wasn't known to be someone who was using drugs. I mean, not that we know of, yeah. Not that we know of, but the disorientation is suggestive of someone who may have just been in a car accident, right? Based on what we know, sounds like someone who could have been in a situation where they
Starting point is 00:37:08 had a possible head injury. The question then, if we're thinking 60 miles and we don't know exactly where this gas station was, how did she get there? How did she get to this location to be seen by this other witness? And then there's so many questions. How did she get there without her Jeep? Yeah. I'm going to try to stay focused here because now you're telling us a lot in a very short period of time. And all these points that I'm writing down, they're all important.
Starting point is 00:37:35 So let's first kind of go chronological here because you touched on a lot. Two guys that we know of, multiple people confirming it in this restaurant slash bar, whatever it was, right? And they're kind of saying the same story. They saw each other, right? But one of the parties is saying, not so fast, there was another individual and that's who she left with. Well, obviously, that's an extremely important, critical piece of information. If it's true. If it's true. So there's one of two scenarios here because it's so descriptive and he's giving, he's giving an actual sketch, like, you know, a description
Starting point is 00:38:10 that can be, that can be drawn out. There's only two options here. He didn't misremember that unless it's another woman. I mean, if he conversated with, with Leah, I would assume he would know if it were her that left with this other gentleman, right? So here's a situation, one of two scenarios. He's telling the truth and he just has a better memory and a better recollection of what happened because maybe he was slightly interested in Leah a little bit more than the others, or he's lying and he's buried.
Starting point is 00:38:39 Yes, right. That's the other scenario. And now that he knows he's on law enforcement's radar, he has to distract and he has to divert and deflect them from the truth by creating this fictitious person who could have potentially been the individual who left with her. And it's not him. It's, of course, not him. And as far as being detailed about the sketch, he could be pulling it out of his you-know-what. So that's that element of it. Because no other customer saw it. That first guy didn't see it. That's a problem. This is the only thing that doesn't add up, right, is this very small information about Leah's final days and hours,
Starting point is 00:39:18 that sighting of her leaving the Bellas Fair Mall restaurant with a man named Barry. The police just could not confirm this sighting in any way, shape, or form. Nobody saw it except for that second dude who gave this very detailed description of this guy. And then they make this composite sketch that ends up looking like Israel Keys. Very much like Israel Keys, but I checked where he was at that time and he was not even in the country.
Starting point is 00:39:44 Even though Washington State was, you know, kind of a hunting ground area for Israel Keyes, apparently he wasn't in the country at the time. I believe he was in the military and he was in a different country, but he, the police said he did come home on leave sometimes. They just don't know if he was there at the time that Leah was there, but still. Either way, if this witness is telling the truth, this could be a different Israel Keyes, right? This could be a person who wasn't identified by police. A different serial killer, you mean? Exactly is what I'm saying.
Starting point is 00:40:15 Yes, it could be another person. I was like, there's another dude out there named Israel Keyes. No, not Israel Keyes, not literally, but another person like him with a similar intention and motive. So that could be a situation there where that, that, you know, if you only had that, I would say, okay, there could be some truth to that. Either this witness is the Barry or he did see a Barry and then she, they're, they're maybe driving together or something's happening in the car. There could have been an assault that was taking place while driving and they go over the edge together, but then you would expect to see some DNA from him left behind and maybe some injuries on his, on his persons
Starting point is 00:40:48 that would suggest he was in an accident recently. So all of that is a little confusing to me, but it could be a situation where if he takes her outside of this establishment, something happens to her, then he disposes of the vehicle later. That is obviously an option. But then when I'm going that direction, you throw a complete curve ball at me. And this curve ball is, I don't know, because we don't know if this would have happened before or after the accident, right? This could be a situation where she appeared to be disoriented to this witness. But as I've said to you guys before, witnesses aren't always accurate.
Starting point is 00:41:25 And this could be a false positive if they didn't confirm it through video surveillance. This could be someone saying, yeah, I saw her, but in reality, she saw someone that looked like her. So it could just be, it could be a red herring. It could be throwing us off. And I will tell you on the surface, I don't know how they would be sure that this information was. Right. Because like you said, they weren't able to establish the validity of the source. They weren't able to establish the validity of the existence of Barry. Correct.
Starting point is 00:41:56 How are they able to establish the validity of this random person who's calling in and saying they see her at a gas station, right? So I'm almost like, is the dude at the bar who saw, claimed he saw her leave with this guy named Barry? Is he Barry? And is he also the dude who called 911 and sent them to Everett, Washington, where she is not? You know, because he gets spooked and hangs up. Or is there a Barry in this Barry called? I don't think there's a Barry, man. I don't think there's a barry i think they're one in the same ain't nobody saw barry but that one dude yeah you know that's kind of a problem we don't know how how busy was the place i don't know the staff remembered leah they remembered her sitting and talking to two
Starting point is 00:42:39 guys but nobody remembers barry and seeing her leave with with said Barry? I wonder if they remembered her seeing her leave at all, right? Like that would help me out. If they remembered her leaving and saying, no, I saw her leave. She left alone. Or no, she left with that guy who was sitting next to her. That would help. I have a feeling that when they asked, did you see her leave? The people working there may have been busy and said, no, I'm sorry. She was here one minute and she was gone. Because they don't know that what they saw is going to be important later. That's not how we operate as human beings. That's why a lot of the times detectives struggle to get people to come forward with information that's helpful because they're not walking around thinking, I'm going to be the witness to a potential murder.
Starting point is 00:43:24 Or a disappearance. Yeah, we don't know. Or a disappearance, a potential murder or disappearance. Exactly. So interesting here. This is not just a head scratcher. There is some evidence here that could be followed up on and could be traced down and could lead to more information about her. And it's surprising that they were able to track these two gentlemen down, but it doesn't seem... I think they used their credit card information, from what I can tell. Yeah, I mean, it's good police work.
Starting point is 00:43:52 So was there anybody named Barry who ate at the restaurant that day? Because otherwise he was just there to see Leah. And in that case, that it would mean she was meeting somebody there. And in that case, it's somebody that nobody was meeting somebody there. And in that case, it's somebody that nobody knew about. Like, I don't believe, I don't believe in Barry. Okay. Barry's a ghost. Barry doesn't exist. In my opinion, allegedly don't come from me. Barry don't exist. It's possible. And it is possible that this disorientation that this other person's describing is, is like I said, it's just an outlier. It's a red herring. And,
Starting point is 00:44:24 and then it is exactly what we think it could be where she leaves with this gentleman. And I call him a gentleman. I'm saying that lightly, obviously, but she leaves with a male party and something happens after that. But really interesting, really interesting piece of information where we are with this one, because now we know of other individuals who have interacted with her that she wasn't familiar with. And as we suspected before the break, she was very open about who she was, what her plans were, and that she was more than likely alone. And this would be known to anybody in that immediate area, both people who are friendly and people who may have other intentions.
Starting point is 00:45:06 Yeah. And she's so open. You know, this this one guy says she's a warm person. She's giving details about her life. You know, she is in this place where she's like trying to find herself. So she's open. She's open to new experiences. She's open to anything. The universe, any energy the universe wants to send her. That means she's going to be open to new people, right? Because she's going to see this as a way to just find herself further, talk to people, hear different people's experiences, make connections, you know, and she's not thinking in a way of being closed off in the way that you have to be as a young woman in public because she wants to be open. She's trying to find herself. She's trying to figure it out.
Starting point is 00:45:46 And she's not going to be careful with the details she's giving. So she's going to say, hey, I actually live in North Carolina and I didn't even tell anybody where I was going. I just got, isn't that cool? I'm on Jack Carroll X path. Nobody even knows I'm gone yet.
Starting point is 00:46:00 Nobody even knows where I am. They have no clue where I'm going. They may know I'm gone, but they don't know where I'm going. Isn't this insane? Like I'm crazy right now. I'm just like, that's knows where I am they may know I'm gone but they don't know where I'm going isn't this insane like I'm crazy right now you know I'm just like that's how dedicated I am to figuring out what this whole crazy life is about and who I am and I'm completely isolated and alone I didn't even bring my cell phone you know she may be saying things like that and what what she thinks she's doing is trying to connect to other humans. But what she's really doing is making herself not only an easy target, but a future victim, you know, unintentionally, obviously. She's not thinking in this way. She's not this careful person that knows the world is a scary place. She's thinking, I don't know what the world is and I don't know who I am. And that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to figure that stuff out. Yeah, very possible. She's giving the intelligence that someone would need
Starting point is 00:46:47 to take advantage of the situation. Let's take a break. We'll be right back. In 2006, Leah's Jeep was re-examined after the original detective turned the case over to new detectives, Jamie Collins and Alan Smith. Now, these two men found out that parts of Leah's vehicle had not been fully examined. Collins realized that no one had ever even opened the hood. So that's exactly what they did. And that's when they figured out that it appeared the Jeep had been tampered with. The cover on the starter relay had been removed, which would have made it possible for someone to turn the key on, push the starter relay had been removed, which would have made it possible for someone to turn the key on, push the starter relay, and have the Jeep accelerate on its own. Now, this provided a
Starting point is 00:47:30 technical explanation for how someone could have sent the Jeep careening into that ravine without a driver at the wheel, and this would have taken some automotive know-how. So the starter relay does exactly what it sounds like. It's a relay. It acts as a controller to the connection between the battery, the ignition, and the starter. And additionally, they found a set of fingerprints under the inner part of the hood. This is when police remembered a person connected to the case who had not only seen Leah before she disappeared on the day that she disappeared, but who also happened to work as a car mechanic. And this was the man from the restaurant who had sat next to Leah at the counter. And the same man had claimed that she'd left with another man named Barry. So police found out that this man, technically the second man. So remember, the first man's the one who called the police. The second man's the one who the first man was like, yeah, there was another dude on the other side of her. And then the third man unofficially would be Barry, who I don't believe exists.
Starting point is 00:48:29 So this second man was living in Canada at the time. And so they requested Canadian authorities to fingerprint the man and get a sample of his DNA. This then led detectives to go back through the items found inside and outside of Leah's car to see if any DNA could be found in her clothes that might match the car mechanic living in Canada, or anyone else for that matter. Now, the man in Canada apparently, allegedly, reportedly, I don't know for sure, but he was not super cooperative. They were not able to get his DNA and fingerprints for two years. And when they finally did, they found out that his prints were not a match for the ones found under the hood of Leah's Jeep. However, they did find male DNA on an item of clothing that was in Leah's car.
Starting point is 00:49:10 And in the spring of 2010, police got to work creating a DNA profile that would be able to be compared to the suspect in Canada or anyone else for that matter. Now, the true crime television show Disappeared did a segment on Leah on the 13th anniversary of her disappearance. And this man, let's just call him Mark for now because I'm sick of calling him this man. Mark said, allegedly, he posted on Reddit under a Leah Roberts thread. And he said he feels that his involvement was misrepresented on the show by the two detectives who were talking about it. He has allegedly posted comments on this Reddit thread about Leah's case saying, quote, I have asked for a letter stating that my DNA and prints be destroyed as per the court order. This was to be done as soon as they tested me against their evidence. This was in 2007. The Whatcom Sheriff's Department have been narrow-sighted and not very honest in their dealings. They continue to play games and the level of their incompetence is overwhelming. Detective Jamie Collins has not even had the guts to return any of my phone calls,
Starting point is 00:50:14 yet he will go on TV and tell his version of how they had to wait two years to get my DNA. The truth is, I was never even asked to provide it. They just got a judge in Canada to sign a warrant for this and it was obtained at gunpoint end quote do you think he actually means gunpoint or do you think he just means like against his will like he didn't want to do it you don't think that they actually like came in with guns and they were like give it to us right now it wouldn't surprise me it could have happened that way but i think he's i think he's more talking in like figuratively i think okay yeah i mean he should be careful then because police have guns he shouldn't be providing inaccurate information or maybe they were
Starting point is 00:50:51 maybe they did maybe it was you know yeah that i mean it's canada so does that sound like something canadians would do the royal canadian mounted police or i don't know. I don't know. The RCMP. Yeah. No, they ain't like getting stuff at gunpoint. Anyways, Mark, he claims he's been harassed because of what detectives said about him on the show, even though his name was never mentioned. And Mark also talked about the afternoon he met Leah saying, quote, When I was at the bar and Leah was sitting next to me, I was eating and a man called her and I turned and saw this fellow walking by the door. Leah called his name and I thought nothing of it. This is the man that I told police about and spent 12 hours in that place, two lie detectors and everything you can imagine.
Starting point is 00:51:38 They finally released the photo. You have to remember this was three weeks after she disappeared. They came to my place and had tracked me by my credit card receipt from the restaurant. End quote. So what do you think about this? Do you think there is a person named Barry and maybe he and Leah, I don't know how they, how the hell they would be communicating without a phone unless she had gotten like a prepaid phone or like a burner phone and she had it on her person when she went missing. But maybe he was like, yeah, meet me at the Bellas Fair Mall. And she's like, well, I'm already in Bellingham. I got nothing to
Starting point is 00:52:08 do. So I'm just going to watch a movie and kill some time and then let's meet in the restaurant at the mall. Like, what do you think? Well, first off, this is part of the reason that some people, and I'm not saying that's the case here, but some people are hesitant to come forward with information to try to help solve the case. Because when you do that, you do run the risk. And I'm not saying again, that's the case here, but you run the risk of becoming a suspect yourself. Because if they can't verify your story, then they start to question it. And now you go from being their best witness to the person of interest to a potential suspect. So this serves as a deterrent for some people to come forward.
Starting point is 00:52:47 But we have to remember, he didn't come forward. He was tracked down. Right. That's what I'm saying. He did not come forward. So it's not apples for apples here. But as far as what he's saying, on the surface, again, based on what we're going off with the electronic, the lack of electronic communications, the lack of her having any interactions with anyone prior to leaving for Washington, the fact that she voiced to numerous people that she wanted to experience
Starting point is 00:53:16 this by herself, it doesn't point to her meeting someone. And from what we know, she didn't have any acquaintances or friends or family out in the Washington state area, especially someone named Barry, or we would know about it. So to think that she would be meeting someone there with this little communication that we have for her, as far as her trace throughout this process, it doesn't seem likely. I can't 100% rule out the possibility that during her travels and her time in that area that she had potentially met a man by the name of Barry somewhere else that we don't know about. And they became acquaintances. They became friends and maybe said, we'll meet later that day here. That is a possibility. The fact that this gentleman has come out and spoken on his behalf, I think you could go either way with it. You could say this is someone who's directly involved and is trying to get in front of this and is trying to come out and speak publicly about it because he wants to give the impression that he's not involved in any way, or it could be a situation where he doesn't have anything to hide. And that's why he's calling the very people out that can arrest him.
Starting point is 00:54:33 It's not wise if you are the guy to, to insult the investigators working the case, unless you know you're innocent. Here's the thing. Like ain't nobody would have known who he was and i i still don't think anybody knows who he is if he wasn't talking about it they didn't say his name you would he's a nameless faceless person so does it seem weird that he's like super defensive when he's anonymous i think it's a situation where if we're approaching it from the angle that he's innocent there are people people that he's worried that it's going to connect back to him,
Starting point is 00:55:08 especially with the world of the internet and who the detectives are telling about this. I mean, it's obviously gotten back to him. He probably feels like people are putting two and two together that it's him. And now he's in, he's concerned that individuals in his immediate circle are going to assume that he killed this girl. And so he's, he's trying to speak on his behalf. Listen, if the guy's innocent, I think we can all understand his frustration. You know, he, he, he wasn't aware, or he decided not to come forward when police were looking for, for help. He was tracked down through his credit card. He may have had the unfortunate circumstance of meeting Leah right before whatever happened to her happened. And we could be talking about a guy who's completely innocent of any crime. He might never have saw Leah Roberts again. He may be telling the truth about this Barry. Only he knows. Um, so I'm torn on this one because if I knew what happened, I'd, I'd, I'd be the best detective in the world, right?
Starting point is 00:56:07 If I could just tell you from listening to what you're saying, saying, Hey, yeah, this is what happened. He's lying or he's telling the truth. We don't know. He's either your best witness or he's your main suspect. You choose. That's hard. That's a hard one.
Starting point is 00:56:21 There you go. So a decade after Leo went missing, police returned to the area with cadaver dogs and metal detectors, hoping they might be able to find the metal rod that had been surgically placed in Leah's leg. Remember to help her femur heal after that bad car accident. But because these types of medical equipment are all marked with serial numbers, which lead back to their owners, police hoped if they located something like that metal rod, obviously, because if there was a body, it would have been decomposed by then. Wildlife would have made off with it, but not the metal in her leg. That's true. It's a great point. If the predation takes place, that is one thing they're not going to eat.
Starting point is 00:56:59 Yes. So they were trying to find that with the metal detector. And then they said if there's a serial number on it, they might at least know what happened to Leah, as in she was no longer alive. Right. And they didn't find anything at that time. But in 2014, a mummified body had been found in the same area that Leah went missing from. And this body did have a metal rod in the same leg, the same leg that Leah had hers implanted in. But the lot number of the metal rod found in this body was traced, and it was discovered that the batch the rod had been shipped out in had been sent out in the fall of 1998, which was the exact same time that Leah Roberts had her surgery. This unidentified body was roughly the same height as Leah, 5'5". It had turned up in the same area Leah was known to have last been seen and had the same surgery in the same leg at the same time as Leah. The only issue was authorities identified the corpse as belonging to a male between the ages of 33 and 55, even though the body was reportedly unrecognizable from intense decomposition.
Starting point is 00:58:06 The Whatcom County John Doe profile had been placed into NamUs, but then in or before April of 2022, it was removed and has not been reestablished. And this is usually indicating that the body was identified. However, there's no information available as to what his identity was. And you know what this made me think of? Preble Penny? Yes, Preble Pete. Because sometimes bodies are misidentified for whatever reason.
Starting point is 00:58:36 Could this have been the case? What are the chances, Stephanie? Right. I know. What are the chances? Are you asking me statistically like statistically or like what are the chances? What are the chances that a body is going to be found with a rod in the same leg that was manufactured around the same time as Leah's surgery? I mean, damn, talk about coincidence if it's the case.
Starting point is 00:59:04 Real quick, before you even answer that, I want to recognize something because I think it's important for this case, but important for cases in general. And I talk about it on Detective Perspective all the time. We don't have a resolution in this case, but I want to give credit where credit's due to these detectives. What were their names again? Jamie Collins, Alan Smith. Jamie Collins and Alan Smith. Credit to them because we found out more about Leah's case since they've taken over than we did in the entire investigation. And clearly, it was not a thorough investigation in some points. Not opening the engine bay of the vehicle and finding these fingerprints that may or may not belong to Leah's offender.
Starting point is 00:59:42 Just finding the engine had been tampered with. Like, why wouldn't you look at that? The car like took a trip at 40 miles per hour off the side of the road into a ravine and you're not going to check to see if there's something wrong with the engine? I don't understand. Well, this is why I've always said in all the cases that we cover and now on DP, they have to allow people to come in and look at these cases after the fact, regardless of what the original investigators think about the job that they did. Because something so simple as, hey, did anybody check under the hood? Actually, no, nobody did.
Starting point is 01:00:19 And they go do that and it leads down another path. And now it's connected to this potential mechanic from Canada. Not only that, they went back out to the crime scene. They went back out to the area with the cadaver dogs. Now, it doesn't sound like this body was found at that time. It was found later. Yeah. So they did it.
Starting point is 01:00:36 I believe they did the search for Leah in 2010 and the body, Watcom County, Jando was found in 2014. Right. But the rationale behind it, hey, listen, she had a metal rod in her leg. If animals got a hold of her, they're not going to eat the metal rod. Maybe we find that metal rod. We may not know exactly what happened, but at least we know the current status of Leah. She's not missing anymore. It'll give some answers to the family. And if we do find her, depending on where we find her or find the rod, it may give us some answers as to what potentially happened.
Starting point is 01:01:10 She may have been thrown from the vehicle and just missed. So, again, hats off to them for doing that and to give us some more details about this case that we originally didn't have. And that's why it's so important for these agencies to allow other investigators, not only within their department, but also outside investigators, whether that's private or other agencies in the surrounding area, develop a mutual aid task force where other officers from different jurisdictions can come in and yes, second guess your work. That's how we ensure that we check all the boxes and make sure that every stone is overturned and looked under before we put this case back in the box and on the shelf. But as far as this metal rod, back to this whole thing, we don't know all the details. We have experienced a case where for 50 years,
Starting point is 01:02:06 the investigators worked under the assumption that the person that they had found, the body they had found was that of a female. 50 years over that, they were looking because of a forensic anthropologist who misidentified Preble P, who was originally known as Preble Penny. And it wasn't until Criminal Coffee and Intermountain Forensics and Moxie Forensics got involved where we did DNA testing that we learned not only was it not a female, but it was an individual by the name of Albert Frost, a male. So could that be the case here? Possibly. Especially because they said the body was mummified, right?
Starting point is 01:02:46 Right. I would love to know how they identified him. I would love to know how they identified him. Was it through a forensic anthropologist? Well, maybe they got the metal rod and traced it back to a serial number. But why wouldn't they just say that? And not only that, here's the thing. Do I think this person was Leah?
Starting point is 01:03:05 No, I don't. Because more than likely, they were able to take some type of DNA swab from the rod or from the mummified body and compare it through familial DNA to Leah's relatives to confirm or rule out the possibility of a connection. I don't think they just had someone walk up to this body and go, yep, looks like a guy to me. Right. I'm sure they vetted it thoroughly. And unfortunately, it did not match.
Starting point is 01:03:31 It did not match Leo, which is why it was entered into the system. I would like to think that it was fully vetted before doing so. I hope so. And they did remove the profile from NamUs. Correct. Meaning it was from NamUs. Correct. Meaning it was matched to someone. Correct. But why, if you have people out here speculating that it could be Leah Roberts, like, why not
Starting point is 01:03:51 just clear it up and be like, no, this is, we identified this person. Even if you don't say who, what their name is, like, just say you've identified them to clear it up. It's weird. I don't know. I honestly don't know. I don't know why they wouldn't come out and say, I think there's sometimes a rationale within law enforcement where they're like, Hey,
Starting point is 01:04:10 all we have to do is tell the family. We don't owe an answer to the public. Now other departments feel differently. Right? So it might be something where they're like, Hey, this is an open investigation. We're not going to let the, if we, if they think she was killed, they're not going to let the, if they think she was killed, they're not going to let the suspect know where their failures are. They're not going to do that. So there is a rationale to it. I'm not saying I agree with it or disagree with it, but that could be why they're just keeping things close to the vest so that the outside people, including a potential offender, isn't aware of what they're up to. Okay. Well, let's take our last break. We'll be right back. A few details before we give our final thoughts. Many people have speculated that it seemed as if Leah had purposely hidden her mother's ring under the car floor mat,
Starting point is 01:04:59 or it would have been on her finger. Like, she wouldn't have taken it off. So why would she have done that? We don't know. Additionally, Leah had withdrawn $2,500 from the ATM before beginning her trip to Washington state. And inside the pocket of a pair of pants that was found inside of Leah's Jeep, police recovered $2,400 in cash, which meant Leah had only spent $100 between North Carolina and Bellingham, Washington. But once again, this is weird because it's like there was a pair of pants in the Jeep with $2,400 of cash in the pocket.
Starting point is 01:05:33 Why wasn't she wearing those pants? Or was she wearing those pants, but she wasn't wearing them when she left? Was she wearing pants when she left? Why would you have $2,400 in the pocket of a pair of pants you do not currently have on? So again, it's all speculative, but it kind of speaks to what you were saying in part one, which is that the car was kind of set up like someone was taking a nap or was sleeping and had window pillows in the windows. And I had suggested in the first part that maybe you could be looking at a situation where she was trying to conserve money. Clearly she still had 2,400 out of the $2,500 that she had originally taken of the money we know of where she might've been sleeping in rest areas or whatever, taking power naps because she wanted to get there efficiently, effectively. And she only did the one hotel.
Starting point is 01:06:24 She wanted to sleep into the, in the truck, felt like she would be safe. Could you be looking at a situation where she's in her truck before going to bed? She takes off her ring, she takes off her pants, she gets comfortable, and she goes to sleep. And someone approaches her vehicle and catches her off guard. Is it possible? It would explain the ring. It would explain the pants. And it would explain the pillows being in the windows. But then they drove her out to the place they knew she was going. How would they know she was going there if she hadn't told them she was going there?
Starting point is 01:06:56 How do we know she wasn't parked nearby sleeping? Why would she be? You wouldn't go up there and park. It's like scary. Doesn't seem like she's too scared of things. Could she have pulled over to take a nap because she was just falling asleep behind the wheel? She's got $2,400. Why wouldn't you just get like spend 80 of that and get a hotel room? Again, we're trying to put ourselves in the mind of someone who decided to drive across the country
Starting point is 01:07:18 without really telling anyone. She just, she kind of just does things what she, what she feels. She was a free spirspirited person. It would not surprise me if being responsible, you know, she got there very quickly. We've talked about that in part one a lot. The time that she made it all the way across the country was very impressive for one person. Yes. And I don't know. See, she must have been taking power naps along the way. Or not sleeping at all, like in some manic state.
Starting point is 01:07:44 It's possible. But she could have gotten to a point where maybe she goes to that restaurant earlier in the way. Or not sleeping at all, like in some manic state. It's possible, but she could have gotten to a point where maybe she goes to that restaurant earlier in the day. She's driving later that night. We don't know what time this all went down. She could have been driving overnight, got really tired, couldn't see much, and decided to pull over. And again, when we think about the pieces of information that we do have concretely, the ring was something big that we talked about tonight. You know, a time when people would take off their rings. The only time I take off my ring is when I'm putting my skincare on. Cause I don't want my lotion and stuff to get into it. Let's take a poll tonight in here in the chat. You guys let
Starting point is 01:08:17 us know if you're on YouTube, how many of you guys take off your rings before going to sleep? Maybe I'm just crazy. Did you take off? Like, I never wore my ring ever. Ever? Ever. Always wore it on a necklace or whatever. I was a police officer. I didn't wear my ring. So I mean, are you the best person to talk about ring wearing habits? I feel like Leah probably took off this ring more than the family said. That's my impression. Really? Yeah. I think it'd be reasonable to say, especially because the ring wasn't found on her, that more than likely she had taken it off. But just roll with me here. We're talking about individual pieces of evidence and you can pick them apart one by one. But in totality, it does potentially paint a picture
Starting point is 01:09:02 of someone. You asked the question, why would this person take their ring off? Why would this person have their pants off with their money in it? And individually, it seems you could really sit there and talk about it for 20 minutes, but you start to put it together. Now you have the ring, the pants and the pillows in the window and a sign of tampering. It could have been something where when she was approached or attacked, she was unsuspecting. She was half asleep. And this person got the drop on her while she was sleeping. This person for all we know could have been following her from the bar, right? They get the drop on her, they attack her. And then to throw people off,
Starting point is 01:09:42 she might've been parked close by. They hit that relay under the hood and they drive the truck off the embankment and Leah was never in the car, which is why we haven't found her. But her ring and pants were because they were off when she was attacked. That's actually very interesting, especially like not so much with the ring thing.
Starting point is 01:10:03 Yeah, you hate the ring thing. Well, because I would never take off my rings like because I lose things, you know, so if I take it off, I'm going to lose it. So you never take it off and I never wore it. We're basically canceling each other out. So we're going to leave it up to the masses. Well, I took it off when I took it off when I would wash my face and sometimes I would forget to put it back on, but it would always be like where I left it so I knew where it was but other than those that instance I would never take
Starting point is 01:10:29 it off because if I did I would not know where I had put it and and I wouldn't be able to find it so that's that's the only reason I didn't take them off and and also it doesn't feel like anything you know having a ring on it's not like a bracelet or a watch or like even a necklace. It's very non-problematic. But the pants being off with the money in it, that would make sense that she was sleeping. So I'm going to tell you this interesting post I found on Reddit, and it's going to give us a little bit more context into the area. And then I'm going to pose another theory to you that might work with what you just said. So this post on Reddit is from a user called Sarah Perhaps. She said, quote, the drive out to Mount Baker is pretty much a straight shot east. Once you're out of Bellingham, it very quickly turns into farmland and then forest. The towns between
Starting point is 01:11:14 Bellingham and Mount Baker are tiny and primarily residential, again, farms and forest. The town of Glacier is the last stop before getting to the mountain. And there are small shops and restaurants where people can stock up before going into the mountain. Something that stuck out to me is that Canyon Creek Road, the road where Leah's car was found, is easy to miss. Leah definitely did not accidentally turn onto it, assuming that she was alive and driving her car towards Baker. Her car was intentionally dumped there because it is off the main road and not a place where someone would be easily spotted. Canyon Creek Road is also easier to spot on the way back from Baker, which makes me think it's possible Leah actually did make it
Starting point is 01:11:50 past the glacier. There is, however, a campsite very close to Canyon Creek Road called Douglas Fork Campground. It would have been closed in March, so I don't think Leah would have been able to camp there, again, assuming she was alive and made it out of Bellingham. However, given that it would have been empty, it may have been a convenient place to bury a body. It might not be the smartest idea to dispose of a body so close to where the car was dumped, but it's possible where any of the nearby campgrounds ever searched with dogs, end quote. So here's a couple of things I'm thinking of. What if Leah made it to Desolation Peak and she was on her way back. And she had met somebody between the restaurant
Starting point is 01:12:28 and leaving Desolation Peak, who she once again confided in, and they followed her. Maybe after leaving Desolation Peak, she stopped in Glacier to sleep for the night before heading back to Bellingham, and they followed her there. Now, the trunk or the hood release to see the engine is inside the Jeep. So maybe they come across her in the Jeep. They take her, do whatever they do to her, and her pants are off because, like you said, she's sleeping. Her ring's off because she's sleeping. They take her. I think it was more than one person, if I'm being honest. But they take her. They put her in another vehicle. Then they take her car to this area where it was dumped. They open the hood.
Starting point is 01:13:11 They mess with the starter relay, whatever, the cover of the starter relay. And then they throw the Jeep over the ravine and they take Leah and they go. Does that sound like something that might be possible? Sounds like you're spot on to me. Sounds like it's a very likely scenario. We can't do absolutes here because this case isn't solved, but again, you take individual puzzle pieces and you have them in your hand
Starting point is 01:13:38 and then you start to put them together and it starts to show you a picture. And these little pieces individually don't make a lot of sense, but when you put them together, you can create a narrative like that where it starts to become more and more possible. Also, it is possible maybe she's in the Jeep, right, when it goes over and she survives, but then she gets back to the road and maybe she hitches a ride with a passing motorist with no pants on well i know but maybe another pair of pants well maybe she wore those
Starting point is 01:14:11 pants the day before slept in them took them off put new pants on but because she was going to hike up to desolation peak she's like what am i gonna need cash for so she didn't really think about that and then she goes hitches a ride Maybe it's the same person who messed with her car and they made sure that they would be in the area so they could pick her up. Or maybe she crashes. She's not like badly hurt, but maybe she she's like, well, you know, whatever. This is part of the road of life. I'm going to continue hiking to Desolation Peak, not knowing that she was a hundred miles away. So I'm with you, but don't back off of your thought process on the rink because you are right, even though we're debating it. I don't see a scenario based on what family and friends believe. I gave an option, but I don't necessarily believe it. I'm just playing
Starting point is 01:14:59 devil's advocate. If she's conscious and she's driving, the ring's on her finger. The ring's on her finger if she goes over that edge. But as you said, this is not on the path of where you would be if you went over the edge accidentally. That car was dumped there. And the fact that her ring was off tells me that she wasn't in the car when it went over. The ring was off for another reason. If she was attacked while she was coherent, she more than likely would have had the ring on and that ring would be with her wherever she is. What we're talking about, again, individually doesn't make a ton of sense. You could pick it all apart, but when you put it together, it sounds like someone who was sleeping near a campsite or
Starting point is 01:15:43 maybe even at a campsite because they were tired. Again, we don't know the window in which this all happened. For all we know, this all went down at two o'clock in the morning. Right. Well, you know, we're thinking it's broad daylight. It could have been the middle of the night. We don't know. And she's driving on a dark road by herself and she's been doing it for days and she has to pull over and go to sleep.
Starting point is 01:16:04 So she puts the pillows up. She gets comfortable. For all we know, someone knocks on the door. Maybe she locks the doors with someone knocks. She opens it and that's it. That's the game over right there. Okay, so could the Jeep have been tampered with by someone when Lee was in the movie theater
Starting point is 01:16:20 or having lunch at the restaurant, right? Some of you guys make fun of me. Is it possible? Yes. I don't think that's the case. I think the car was tampered with before it went over the edge. I think the car was tampered with right before it went over the edge. Right, went over the edge or to make it go over the edge, right?
Starting point is 01:16:35 It was in drive. It had some acceleration going to it to make it look like someone was stepping on the pedal when it went over the edge to create that rollover effect, you know, to make it look like there was a high rate of speed occurring right before the accident. All right. So check this out. Barry, let's say Barry's real. Now, Leah was in Bellingham for that whole day. Like we assume because it was only, I think, a four hour drive from where she was getting gas to Bellingham and she was getting gas, you know, very early in the morning. So she probably got there very early in the morning at Bellingham. Maybe she goes to a coffee shop. She meets new friends, including somebody named Barry.
Starting point is 01:17:13 And she's like, hey, I'm going to Desolation Peak. And like, you know, I want to be alone and stuff. But like, who wants to come along? If you guys want to come along, we can all have our own separate, solitary, finding-ourself kind of experience. And, you know, you can drive up there with me. Or maybe locals who had nefarious tensions were like, oh, yeah, we know exactly where that is. Yeah, we know about Jack Kerouac. Yeah, we would love to go.
Starting point is 01:17:36 We'll show you exactly where it is. We'll get you there, you know, and then we'll give you your space so you can have your time. And then she brings them along with her on her trip to the mountains. And then maybe these people harm Leah and then tamper with her vehicle to make sure it would be a while before it was found and to make sure it would look like Leah had, you know, died in this car crash.
Starting point is 01:17:56 So there were pry marks found on the outside of Leah's car door that police suspected could have been the result of someone tampering with her vehicle. And I suppose it's possible, or those pry marks could have just been, you know, from the accident. They could have been there result of someone tampering with her vehicle. And I suppose it's possible. Or those pry marks could have just been, you know, from the accident. They could have been there from something else, but they could absolutely be part of this.
Starting point is 01:18:11 Of course. Minor marks could be a big deal in this case, for sure, to show some type of attempted forced entry. Or did Leah survive the horrible crash? She was able to walk away. She got lost in the vast and dense wilderness of the North Cascade Mountains. Stephanie, let me throw this at you. Okay. We're talking about broken windows. How do we know that window wasn't broken out by her offender while she was sleeping? And not during a rollover, but before the rollover. I mean, all the windows,
Starting point is 01:18:36 it looks like all the windows were broken. Well, the other windows could have been broken out during the rollover, but we have no way of knowing if that window was broken before she went, that car went over the edge, right? Yeah. No way of knowing. How do we know someone doesn't walk up to that car with a pry bar, tries to pry the door open, can't do it, smashes the window, unlocks the door, and now they're in? Which I, and that's the thing.
Starting point is 01:18:55 That's why I've never gotten this whole van life thing. It's terrifying to me, okay? It's scary because a lot of these van life people, they just be pulling over on the side of the road going to sleep. Okay. All this between you and the outside world is a car door, which we all know with the coat hanger. Yeah, not me. No, not you.
Starting point is 01:19:15 I could see Leah enjoying that. Sleeping out in the wilderness. I wouldn't be able to sleep. Sometimes I can barely sleep in my house. I hear a noise outside. It's over. I'm done for the next four hours, you know? So it's
Starting point is 01:19:25 not safe to do this. It's not safe to do this, especially when you're a young girl by yourself and somebody with a coat hanger can figure out how to get inside of your car and get to you. There's also a possibility similar to Daniel Robinson. Many people have wondered if Leah had some sort of mental break or a manic episode, and this led to death by misadventure, you know, that she maybe had purposely made her car go over the side. Although, like I said, I don't know what a starter cover is and what it would do, a starter relay cover. I don't know how she would know. That's less likely to me. Others have asked, is it possible
Starting point is 01:20:05 that Leah just wanted to start over somewhere new with a new name, a blank page to start writing the story of her life on? I once again find that less likely because her parents were dead. She had a really good, strong set of friends in Raleigh, North Carolina. She had her coffee shop friends and she had her lifelong friends and she had a very close relationship with her siblings, Heath and Kara, who also lost their parents. Would Leah just up and abandon them too after they lost their mother and father?
Starting point is 01:20:35 I don't see that happening. It just doesn't seem to be in her character. And if it was gonna happen, she'd tell them. She'd be like, hey, I'm going off to start a new life somewhere. I'll be in touch, all right. And I'll come back and visit. But for a few years, I just want to see what it's like to live someplace else. And Kara, her sister, even said that Leah had told her, yeah, I'm going to travel. I'll go where I go. But Raleigh will always be my home. I'll always come back here.
Starting point is 01:20:58 She loved it there. So she wanted to kind of have a home base to go off from, but she would always return. So I find that less likely. Yeah. So a lot of different possible scenarios that you laid out there. I could sit here and try to discredit them. I think they all have some possibility of being true. I don't think she took her own life. I don't think she was doing this to get away and she wanted to start something new.
Starting point is 01:21:24 I think that Leah was attacked. I think that Leah was attacked. I don't think she went over the edge while she was driving. It just doesn't line up to me. Not to be redundant here, but no ring, no pants, money still inside the pockets, which suggest this this if this was a crime it wasn't financially motivated this was probably sexual in nature if anything again young woman by herself there are people in the area that now know that uh going into this she could have been with someone they could have been following her it could have been someone completely different the windows being smashed out could be from the rollover, could be from the prior attack. You have no body being found at the site if this was an accident or if she was left in
Starting point is 01:22:11 the car to make it staged to look like an accident. She's nowhere to be found. As we've already said, the vehicle was nowhere near the road where it would be. Locals have said this was off the path of someone who would know that it would be harder to find this vehicle if finding it at all. Maybe they were hoping nobody would ever find it. It was a very isolated area. Like that poster said, it wasn't as if this was a well-traveled path that people would take. They were dumping it. They were dumping it. They were trying to get rid of it. They weren't necessarily trying to stage
Starting point is 01:22:37 an accident. They were trying to get rid of the evidence. And then finally, you have these new detectives learning, based on what they've told told us that the vehicle was tampered with. And as you said, start a cap. I know what it is, but I wouldn't know to do that either. So you could be looking at a potential suspect. So based on everything we have, I do think that more than likely she was probably sleeping because she can't really drive with pillows up in the windows. So the pillows being up in the windows would suggest that she wasn't in motion. That's so true.
Starting point is 01:23:09 Yeah. That is so true. The pillows would not be up if she was in motion and they would be up if she was stationary. The pants being off is something that we would all do to be more comfortable while we sleep. I do think we're going to have a lot of people say, yeah, I'm not someone who normally takes my ring off, but when sleeping, I sometimes take my jewelry off to be more comfortable and not to scratch myself or something. And then the fact, like I said, $2,500 worth of money was left behind. I feel like she was attacked and more than likely the person got the drop on her because
Starting point is 01:23:38 they were following her or they came up on the vehicle maybe two, three, four o'clock in the morning. And that's why we have not found Leah Roberts to this day. I think, well, I mean, I've always felt that she was attacked from the beginning, especially with that metal rod in her leg. Like if she had just decomposed somewhere in that general area, that metal rod would have been found. So, yeah, it's hard to, and I guarantee you that either they left the cat in the car
Starting point is 01:24:04 or they allowed her to take her little cat B with her to give her some sort of feeling of comfort knowing what they were going to do to her, but just to get her to calm down and not scream and freak out. Yeah. I don't think whatever happened to her happened in the car. No, they took her. They took her. You would have evidence of that being left behind. And I think it was more than one person, by the way. You could be right.
Starting point is 01:24:24 Do you think? What do you feel? What's your instinct on that? It'd be easier. It'd be it was more than one person, by the way. I don't, you could be right. Do you think, what do you feel like? What's your instinct? It'd be easier. It'd be way easier. It'd be easier for sure. It'd be easier, but it's not impossible.
Starting point is 01:24:30 She's a, she's a small girl. It's not impossible. Yeah. She's half asleep possibly, um, depending on the size and stature of this person. And again,
Starting point is 01:24:38 catching her. She's trusting. She's trusting. This guy could have approached her and said, Hey, I just need a jumpstart. My car's, you know, it's not, something not going right or I need some gas or I need something. We don't know.
Starting point is 01:24:50 This person could have pretended they were a park ranger or authority figure, a police officer. So many angles where she gets out of the car disoriented and now he has her. And this could have been somebody who's done this before. You know, this could be some sort of trafficking organization. This could be some sort of serial killers. Predatory behavior just in the area, knowing that you can, there's a lot of places to hide. Yeah. A lot of scenarios.
Starting point is 01:25:11 The window could have been smashed out before it was dumped, which is why another reason they wanted to dump it to make it look like it was part of the accident. So many things. But, you know, I always like to say, I'm not, I don't believe in saying a hundred percent this is what happened because there's family members and friends out there still hoping that they will get answers to this. And maybe one of those scenarios is Leah's okay. And she's out there somewhere living her life. And that is also a possibility. So I hope for their sake, that is the case. That's not really that big
Starting point is 01:25:38 of a possibility, I don't think. It's not a big possibility, but it's still a possibility. And we're in no position to say it's not because we don't have anything that can definitively say that. But the likelihood of that is not looking great based on the fact that everything she cared about, including her rings and what she would need to function, her money. All her belongings. Yeah, all her belongings. Her guitar. Yep. Everything was left behind. Her cat. Yep. Everything was left behind. Her cat. Yeah. Which is not what you would expect if a person left voluntarily. And if she had made it to the road and made it to that gas station with that call that came in, that anonymous call, we would have more information.
Starting point is 01:26:16 That call, to just put a pin in that, I feel like it was either someone deliberately misleading the police. I agree. Or they accidentally misidentified Leah as someone else that they saw that day. Yeah. Yeah. Or like the guys on the phone with the police. And he's like, my wife thinks that she saw Leah Roberts. And then his wife's like, Harold, I told you, don't say that.
Starting point is 01:26:36 That girl had black hair. It's not Leah Roberts. And he was like, and then he hung up, you know, something going on like that. Yeah. If it wasn't something like that, it was definitely nefarious. 60 miles away? Yeah, an hour. Yeah, an hour and a half.
Starting point is 01:26:48 That one's hard to grasp. I mean, obviously, it's just sad because if you look at Leah's siblings, Kara and Heath, they just lost their mother. They just lost their father. Now they lose their sister, all in the space of just a few years. And so, you know, we're talking about Leah as the victim and she is, but we also have Karen Heath who basically lost everybody in their immediate family, everyone they loved in the, it's such a short time span that, that does not leave you. That's, that's like the worst. It's,
Starting point is 01:27:19 you gotta be sitting there like, why am I locked right now? You know, why is this continually happening to me? Is there anybody else to torture right now, God? You know, is it just me? Can I say one more thing before you give your final words here? Yeah. Just playing detective for one more second. I don't know if it was done. I hope that it was.
Starting point is 01:27:35 Probably wasn't, if I'm being honest with you guys. But we should have checked the area, the roadway, miles up and down. Patrolman should have been out there looking for any signs of a disturbance on the side, the roadway, miles up and down. Patrolman should have been out there looking for any signs of a disturbance on the side of the road, any signs of potential glass being broken, or more importantly, taking tire impressions of her vehicle and then looking to see if there were any tire impressions along the side of the road that would suggest she had pulled over and she was stationary for a period of time. And if you found that location, you may find a second set of tire prints or a second set of footprints that may implicate someone or their vehicle. Do I think this was done? No,
Starting point is 01:28:15 probably not. Would it have been hard to do needle in a haystack, if you will? Probably, but sometimes we get lucky and they should have checked that roadway, maybe 20 miles up, 20 miles back. That's a big area, maybe 10 miles up, 10 miles back, just to see if anyone, while driving very slowly in a patrol car, if you saw any tire tracks, fresh tire tracks, that would be similar to her SUV. And if so, you might be able to put the story together, maybe get a new lead to follow I was even thinking like at the bellis fair mall, right? We know she's at the movie theater We know she's at the restaurant
Starting point is 01:28:50 But they should have pulled any surveillance cameras they had in that entire mall to see if she was anywhere else Was she talking to somebody was she like looking at shoes at journeys and then she walked out and then she's in the hallway of the Mall like speaking to somebody Anything like that? I somebody, anything like that. I'm sure they did that. I mean, I'm not sure. I hope they did that. But if they did, there's there's no, you know, we don't know.
Starting point is 01:29:13 We don't know. We don't have the whole puzzle, which would be nice to have the folder right here in front of us and rip it apart and see what we can find. Because you never know. It could be anybody who solves this one. Well, I will finish with a quote from American Beauty, which is the movie that Leah watched on the day she disappeared into thin air. And this quote is, remember those posters that said today is the first day of the rest of your life? Well, that's true of every day except one, the day you die. And that was Lester Burnham from American Beauty. It's Kevin Spacey's character. Really good movie. Bizarre, sort of
Starting point is 01:29:45 different kind of movie to see on the day you vanish. It's not like she went to go see, you know, Love Actually or, I don't know, Wedding Crashers. It was American Beauty, which is this very, you know, like, I don't know, what would you call it? Just sort of abstract, looking inward. What's life about? What's the meaning of life kind of movie? And you see that and then you're going to go out into the mountains where Jack Kerouac found himself and this is what your last day looks like. It's just so bizarre. And I guess at the end of the day, we just will probably never know what happened to Leah Roberts. Very possible, unfortunately. And I think the theme to take away from this one, and I'll say it till the day I die, it shouldn't be this way. Man, woman, big, tall, short, fat, I don't care what you are. Travel with impairs at minimum. Yeah. I always do. You have to try. I know that we want our privacy and we want to be able to go out and do things and you should be able to do that. But not only does it allow for you to have someone else with
Starting point is 01:30:56 you to, to, you know, potentially describe what happened to you before it did, you know, give more details. We talk about victim of opportunity. I can tell you right now that when an offender sees you with another person, that's now two people they have to control at once. That serves as a deterrent to the offenders. So travel in pairs. So Derek, a couple weekends ago or a couple weeks ago, I was talking to you and I was, I had met a new friend and she invited me to go to a concert in Toronto and I wanted to, and what did I say? I called you and I was like, would you go with us? Because I'm not going alone. I'm not going alone to a different country, to a big city. I feel like, I feel like a little girl, like a big city. I'm not going to a big
Starting point is 01:31:39 city by myself with just me and, you know, another girl,, I'm inviting trouble because I know if I have a big, strong, tall man like Derek with me, I'm less likely to be messed with. So I'm just increasing my odds of remaining safe. And this isn't like I'm not a feminist or I'm not independent or I don't think I can handle myself. In a perfect world, yes, I could handle myself. I can get from point A to point B. Well, maybe not. But I can do things if I have to. But as far as external forces, like what other people are going to do to me, yes, I'm less likely able to protect myself from a man that's 100 pounds heavier than me,
Starting point is 01:32:23 taller than me, stronger than me, unless I have another man with me, which is going to deter this man from even approaching me to begin with. Yeah. And there's no guarantees they could still look at anybody and be like, yeah, I don't care, but it does decrease the likelihood. Who are they going to choose? The woman who's alone by themselves, doesn't appear to have any friends or family with them. They're just kind of wandering around aimlessly. Or the group of individuals that are together and appear to be friends and know each other and will protect each other more than likely if someone comes into that circle. So we don't know exactly what happened here, but what I think we can take away from it is that if Leah had gone with someone else, maybe we're not talking about her in this way today. Maybe there's a different outcome. That's my takeaway from the case. And I
Starting point is 01:33:12 hope with the potential leads that we do have, there are players in this game. We have identified some individuals. Maybe it leads somewhere. Science technology is always evolving. We talked about the mummified remains. We've seen what's happened in cases similar to that. I don't know where this case is going to go, but if there is a break in it, if something changes, we will absolutely update you guys and let you know as soon as that happens. Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. And we will see you next week with a new multi-part deep dive series. So for those of you who like the cases
Starting point is 01:33:47 where there's one or two or three episodes, you got a couple of those. For those of you who like the deep, deep dives, well, one's coming. Buckle up. Buckle up, buttercup. Yeah. Stay safe out there, guys.
Starting point is 01:34:00 Good night. Bye.

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