Crime Weekly - S3 Ep206: The Menendez Brothers: Double Homicide (Part 4)

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

Beverly Hills, located just southwest of the Hollywood Hills, was and still is a place that the rich, famous and glamorous choose to make their homes. Known for its opulence and luxury, the homes in Beverly Hills are some of the most expensive in the United States, with some properties worth tens of millions of dollars. But behind the country clubs, cocktail hours and shopping trips, there was something much darker brewing in a high end Beverly Hills neighborhood. On August 20th, 1989, business executive Jose Menendez and his wife Kitty were brutally murdered while sitting in the living room of their sprawling Mediterranean style mansion, and what seemingly made this tragedy worse was the fact that their two son’s, Lyle and Erik, were the ones to make the gruesome discovery of their bodies. Suddenly orphaned, the Menendez brothers were initially looked at with sympathy, but soon they would be on trial for the murder of their parents. Lyle and Erik didn’t deny that they had taken their parents' lives, but according to them it was because they were scared and broken down after a lifetime of abuse. At the time, most people believed this was a fabricated excuse, and the prosecution gave greed and money as the true motive. A tragedy and trial played out for the world on television, ending with both Erik and Lyle confined at the Richard Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego for life, with no chance of parole. Recently, newly discovered evidence and testimony has raised questions of whether Erik and Lyle were being honest about the constant state of stress and fear their parents forced them to live under. Use code CRIMEWEEKLY at www.CrimeCon.com for a discount on your CrimeCon 2024 Nashville tickets! Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. ZipRecruiter.com/CrimeWeekly - Try ZipRecruiter for FREE! 2. DailyHarvest.com/CrimeWeekly - Get $30 off your first box and FREE shipping! 3. AloMoves.com - Use code CRIMEVIP for a FREE 30-day trial and 20% off an annual membership! 4. Smalls.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY to get 50% off your first order and FREE shipping! 5. EatIQBAR.com - Text "WEEKLY" to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!

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Price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer. Single item at regular price. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're diving into part four of the Menendez murders, and we're getting into the actual murders today, which are quite graphic.

But before we do, I know that Derek would like to address something. Yes, please. Thank you. I'm going to try to go as quick as I can, but I won't lie to you. This may be lengthy. So just bear with me. Last week, I made some comments on the episode and it definitely upset a lot of people. Understandably so. Looking back at it, going and watching the video and listening to it, it was very poorly worded and I could see how some people took it the wrong way and were really hurt by what I said. So I initially put up a comment on YouTube to explain what I was talking about, which was the testimony of Eric at that point, the video. And I think for the most part, a lot of people got the clarification, but there were still some people who were upset by it. Understandably, again, I get it,

but I wanted to address it on here because one, not everyone goes to the comments after they watch the video and on audio, you may not come over. So there's a lot of people, there's hundreds of thousands of people who listen to the audio version. And I can only imagine that there were some people upset over, like some people will say, nope, we still don't agree with what you were trying to say. Or some people will say I'm backtracking. I think my record speaks for itself. There's a lot of things that I say on this channel where I have a certain opinion. Many of you don't agree with it. And I'm okay with that as long as you're understanding what I'm trying to say. I think this is a case where I just really didn't say it the right way and it wasn't taken that way.

So I have to readdress it, which is what I'm going to do right now. So first off, when we're doing these episodes, I think most of you know by now, Stephanie is the storyteller. She will cover a lot of different things. She'll talk about different individuals, different topics. She'll cut to an image, a video, and I'm just sitting there making bullet points, waiting for my opportunity to kind of chime in without interrupting her and breaking up the story. And in some cases, I'll have like four or five different points to make about things

that aren't necessarily connected. So in this particular circumstance, and I went back and watched the first, you know, the whole first 25 minutes, it's really around five minutes, around the 20 minute mark where Stephanie mentions for the first time that the Menendez brothers accused both parents of sexually abusing them, which was a big, you know, reveal. And then she alludes to the fact that Jose was taking pictures of them. And then immediately after that, it cuts to the video of Eric. Now in the video of Eric, there's the first line is, you know, when did you learn about the photo? And he says, you know, I was in prison, but then 97% of that

video is about what he endured with Jose and how he gave names to those experiences that he had, those graphic, terrible experiences that he had. So I'm sitting there and I'm getting fired up, listening to this testimony and I'm writing bullet points and I'm ready to respond to that. And a lot of the times it's not like a format, but a lot of the times I will react to that first when we come out of the video, because Stephanie is the one cutting all the B roll together. So she knows she already has seen what we're watching. So a lot of the times I'll respond first, but in this case, rightfully so Stephanie came back from the video and elaborated on the photos themselves and talked about how Eric and Lyle are victims in this

case. And they are being re-victimized by these photos being out there everywhere. And she's a hundred percent right. And it was a hundred percent warranted to bring that up one more time. And she ended it by saying, you know, now everybody knows everything. And that's kind of the last thing I heard because I'm gearing up to kind of weigh in on the video. So right after she finishes what she's saying, I say, you know, yeah, I complete with you. I agree with you a hundred percent. And, you know, it's really hard to watch and we're going to talk about the video because it's the first time I'm seeing it. So that's what I'm really focused on is the video and the testimony that Eric is having to give. But the first mistake I make is right after saying that I say, none of that would be out there if it wasn't for them murdering their parents. None of that is too vague. None of that after what

Stephanie just said can be interpreted as all-encompassing. The photos being out there, the testimony, the trial, everything, none of that would be out there if they didn't do what they did. That's not true. The photos were taken by Jose. That is not the Menendez brothers' fault. They did nothing wrong. I'm not victim blaming. What I'm referring to when I say that is the fact that they're now on trial testifying about what they endured because it's part of their defense. And that's what I meant. So that was mistake number one. Then I say they're in the position they're in because of their own actions. Well, I agree with that sentiment, but again, they're in this position is too vague. Again, it could be perceived as all encompassing. And I still agree with the

sentiment as far as where we are today. I'm going to come back to that because I want to address one more mistake I made, which is probably the biggest one as far as wording, where I said, now they're out there for everybody to see. Again, saying that in that context, after what Stephanie just said, easily interpreted as photos, testimony, everything that they're experiencing. That's on me. I should have been more specific. I apologize for that as well. I should have done that. I should have said specifically they wouldn't be up there reliving what they went through as far as the abuse on trial if they hadn't murdered their parents. I should have been more specific. But to go back to, they're up there because of their own actions.

I've worked a lot of sexual assault cases, unfortunately. And in many instances, the victims do not go on to kill their offenders. And some of you may agree with that. Some of you may not. But we do everything we can to put them in a position to have it be as least traumatizing as possible, whether that's interviewing them in their home with a friend or family member, having their favorite food around. We try to do the interview all in one take on video if they're cool with it because we don't want to keep having them relive those moments. And in many instances, if it goes to trial, the video can be submitted as their testimony. The judge will usually not make them testify again, especially children. So that's an option. And what I mean by they're there because of their own actions, the brothers, is they had options as well. And they had the option of running away

and trying to start a new life. They had the option of going to law enforcement. They chose to brutally murder, which we're going to talk about tonight, their two offenders. And ultimately, the reason this was covered so heavily is because of the salaciousness of it, the way they killed their parents, the story behind it. And now the trial's being covered on a national platform and they're having to talk about their abuse because it's part of their defense. It's their reasoning behind doing it. So now they're having to say that all in front of the whole world to see. So that's what I meant by that. We would know about this case maybe because Jose was a big

figure at the record company and all that, but it wouldn't be to this level. The reason that it was at this level, again, just to reiterate, as far as their testimony in a public forum like that if they hadn't killed their parents. I stand by that, but I do owe you guys an apology for the wording. I want to reemphasize that they're not at fault for those photos initially being taken. That's Jose. He did that. He is in the wrong and they should not have those photos at court and they should not have those photos online. And just to reiterate what Stephanie originally said, every time those photos at court and they should not have those photos online. And just to reiterate what Stephanie originally said, every time those photos are shown, even to this day, they are being re-victimized. And regardless of what they did, they do not deserve that because they were little boys when that happened. Nobody deserves that, especially not a child. And that's why we didn't show the photos here. And that's why I've never seen the photos to this day and never will, because as a father, I don't need

to see them. And as a professional, I've seen enough of that in my lifetime as a police officer to see any more of it. I don't need it for this case, but overall, I'm sorry for everybody I hurt by not being more specific. I'm human. I make mistakes. I will obviously learn from this and try to do better. And I hope that whether you agree with me or not, you at least know where I was coming from now and we can move on from it and continue this case because tonight is going to be just as hard. And I think it's important to stay on focus, but I wanted to make sure that I addressed this so everyone is on the same page. That's all I got. All right. So let's try to move on now because-

Let's try to move on. I mean, I think that if you're a viewer of Crime Weekly or a listener of Crime Weekly, and you've been with us for a while, you may be... And I understand that this is a sensitive subject. I mean, it was very sensitive for me. That's why when I saw those pictures in court, I was shocked. And I was very upset. I was very upset. And I felt very bad. Just trying to, you know, I don't even have to try to put myself in their shoes. It's like it just automatically happens. And it's horrific. But I think if you've been watching and listening to us long enough,

you'll know that we are very empathetic people and we are very victim focused. And Derek probably could have used just a little bit more grace because although it is, it can be triggering and it can be. And I've been there where somebody said something, even if it's somebody close to me who I know is well-intentioned and I'll just get immediately upset because of my personal experience or because of how close I am to the topic. But I think in hindsight, we can give Derek a little grace because we know where his heart is and we know that he's well-intentioned and we know he's a good person who supports victims. I mean, I don't that for a million percent, sure. And that's why i kind of didn't i didn't act you know shocked or anything when he said it because you just kind of know people and you you know that they don't mean

even what it might sound like and you kind of learn to speak their language and you figure out what they mean but i was definitely guilty of re-watching it or listening to it before it went live and understanding what i meant by it because because I was in my head. But when you hear from people, and it was especially the people who are victims themselves, they were really concerned that I was saying the photos were their fault. And by no way, shape or form was I ever insinuating that at all, not even a chance. But again, the fact that I opened that door by my wording, that's why I'm doing this. That's why I'm clearing it up. And it's specifically for, uh, the people who were, who genuinely hurt by it because

they're victims themselves of maybe having a photo or something of them taken. Um, and, and I just wanted to make sure that they knew where I stood. And again, like I said, it will, it will, uh, most people will get it. Some won't. And I, I respect that some will understand completely what I meant and still not agree with me. And that's perfectly fine. So, uh, we'll keep it rolling and I'll, and I'll keep growing and, and it probably won't be the last mistake I ever make in my life, but, um, it's a learning experience and I,

I two pages of notes on it. I criticized the hell out of myself, watching it multiple times, had a couple eye rolls in there as I was saying it, because I'm like, Derek, in hindsight, like that sound, especially after what Stephanie said, it just, it's a bad look. And so that's all I got. And I know, I thank you for giving me the time to talk about it. Cause I know we're at the 12 minute mark, but maybe people who don't like us not getting right into the story will give me some grace here because it's still part of the story technically. So I got you there.

I mean, we can always put a timestamp, but okay. So we're going to dive in and we're going to start off with Friday, August 18th, 1989, a hundred miles away from the Menendez's Beverly Hills mansion, two Mossberg 12 gauge shotguns were purchased from the Big M's sporting goods store in San Diego, California. Sales clerk Amanda Greer said the purchase took place at around 8 p.m. that evening, and her two young male customers had pointed at the weapons they wanted, told her that's what they wanted, filled out the form, paid for the shotguns in cash, and then left the store. At that time, under federal law, anyone who purchased a firearm would have to fill out a 4473 form or a firearms transaction form. It's pretty standard. Fill out the model of the gun, the serial number, caliber, or gauge. Then you enter the identifying information of the person who's purchasing the gun, name, address, date of birth, social security number, driver's license, etc. Based on the handwriting on the form for that

August 18th purchase, it's believed that Lyle Menendez filled out the form, but he did not enter his information. Instead, he carefully penned in the name Donovan Goudreau, the old friend and roommate that had betrayed him and been removed from his dorm room not long before, just a few months before. If you remember Donovan Goudreau, he was the one who Lyle met through Lyle's girlfriend. And then Donovan was pretending he was going to Princeton. He was basically kind of like a little mini con artist. And then once Lyle figured out that he wasn't a Princeton student, he felt betrayed. He asked him to leave. Donovan left. But it looks like Lyle kept something of Donovan's. In the aftermath of the Menendez murders, law enforcement had a hard time tracking down the purchase of the Mossberg shotguns,

but eventually they did locate the San Diego shop and they were able to see the 4473 form with Goudreau's name on it. Obviously, police would speak to Donovan Goudreau, who was able to prove that at the time of the murders, he was thousands of miles away in New York City working at a restaurant that entire weekend. They looked at his time card, all of that jazz. And when Donovan had left Princeton University, he'd driven straight to New York, and during his drive, that's when he realized he didn't have his wallet with him even though he searched through all of his bags and he says in his testimony he didn't pack his bags right because he was kicked out so Lyle Menendez and a few of Lyle's friends and and fellow Princeton students basically packed all of

Donovan's stuff up threw it in bags and then like threw those bags outside the dorm room and then when Donovan showed back up Lyle was like you, you need to go. Donovan grabbed his stuff, got in the car, leaves. He's driving to New York. He needs to get gas or whatever. And he's looking for his wallet, nowhere to be found, not in any of those bags. And Donovan's California driver's license, as well as his bank card and social security card, had been inside of that wallet. So we obviously know what kind of identification was used to purchase these murder weapons. And so here we are, obviously very important as we're talking about premeditation, these shotguns, because this was a question I had going into it. I didn't ask you off camera. I didn't ask you off record. I was wondering if these shotguns were

owned by friends, if they were Jose's shotguns, if they were Eric and Lyle's from a hunting trip or something, or if these shotguns were purchased for the purpose of killing two people. And based on what you just laid out, which is by far the first time I'm hearing it, they knew what they were going to do with these guns. They purchased them under a false pretense to try to cover their tracks, in my opinion. And they went there with the intention on buying these guns in the hope that in the aftermath, law enforcement wouldn't be able to trace these guns back to them. So this is already not a good look as far as was this planned? Was this in the crime of passion?

It does look like there's some premeditation here initially. But you seem like you want something that you might have a little tidbit to add. So the prosecution's obviously going to go into these trials saying this was premeditated and using the purchase of the guns as evidence of how it was premeditated. Right. That's my cop brain right now. That's where I'm at. Right. Of course. Now the defense and the Menendez brothers themselves, they're going to say, no, no, no, we did not buy those guns with the intention to murder our parents. We bought those guns because we thought our parents were going to murder us and we wanted them for self-defense. And so Lyle's going to testify that for the majority of the time, I mean, they only had the guns for a couple of days before

the murders, right? They get them. Yeah. They get them on Friday. They murder their parents on Sunday. But Lyle's going to say, you know, we had the guns inside the guest house where we lived. I kept my gun in my closet during the day. And then at night when I went to bed, I put the gun in the bed with me to sleep with it for protection. They said that those shotguns were purchased for the reasons of self-defense. Yeah. So here's what I would say as Detective Levasseur, let's pretend you're Eric or Lyle, right? You just tell me that story. I'm going to come back to you and say, Eric or Lyle, I'm going to say, okay, I actually buy that. I'm with you. I follow you. Self-defense. So why the need to purchase them under a false name? Why the need to purchase them under a false identity? Because here's the thing, Jose doesn't have the reach to track down that you just purchased those guns. The only reason you would want them in a different name is that so that some government entity can't trace those guns back to you. And the only reason the government

entity would want to do that in most cases is if one of those firearms were using the commission of a crime. So that's what I would ask him. And I'm not saying you're a defender of Eric or Lyle, but that's a question they would have to answer. And I don't know if they were questioned about that, which is why I'm asking you. So what I would also point out is that initially, Eric and Lyle had told the police, you know, when they finally admitted to being the ones.

You got us. Yeah. They had said, oh, we bought them in in Santa Monica, which is obviously a lot closer to Beverly Hills than San Diego. So they said they bought him in Santa Monica. And during the trial, the prosecution is questioning, I believe it was Eric. And he's like, Eric, did you know that you haven't been able to buy a gun in Santa Monica for the past three years? And Eric was like, oh, I did not know that. They had guns. We saw them there. They were there. And the prosecution's like, well, you couldn't buy one. So you didn't buy it from Santa Monica, did you? And that's when it kind of gets into the also you went all the way to San Diego to purchase these guns. That's correct.

And that's why the cops had such a hard time tracking down the purchase, because not only can say on one hand, officers, your honor, we did this because we wanted to protect ourselves. But the fact that they went so far away, the fact that they bought them under a false name, and the fact that they lied to law enforcement about where they purchased the guns tells a different story. It's that simple. Because if the answer is the truth, you just say simply, officer so-and-so, yeah, those guns are ours. We bought them legally. We bought them right over here. And we bought them after we thought that he was going to kill us. And we're in our right to own a firearm. It's our constitutional right. The fact that they tried to mislead law enforcement, who would therefore not be able to connect the guns no matter where they went. So they could easily say, we didn't buy the guns under our name and we didn't buy them close to home because our father has eyes everywhere. He's got people everywhere. He always

seems to know everything, you know? So because of the abuse, because of the trauma bond, we didn't know whether or not he would be able to figure out that we've done this. And that's what I'm saying. I'm fine with that as a law enforcement officer. Tell me that. Don't make me figure it out and call you out after the fact. Again, I'm going to say this phrase a lot, consciousness of guilt. After the fact, everything you just said, if you go into the, when you're being interviewed and you go into the detective and say, listen, we purchased them out here. I'll show you where we got them. We did it under a false name. We went this far away because we were afraid our father was going to find out. That's why we did it. I may not necessarily still completely believe you if I've

definitely already put all the puzzle pieces together and you're just now admitting to it, but it's you, you made me do the work. I figured it out. You didn't lead me down that path. Why are you lying to me about where you purchased the guns? If I'm not the one you're afraid of. So that's where, to me, their, their story falls a little bit of a part as far as premeditation. But again, this is, they're trying to defend themselves. They, they, they obviously are going to lie multiple times throughout this trial.

And so you expect this type of stuff. But I will say these are things that, you know, we talked a lot about the abuse and all this stuff, and that can all be true. It can also be true that they're lying about why or how they killed their parents. So, and that's where they're going to kind of lose me here, right? Because up until now, I do. You're on Team Menendez. And I, yeah. Well, not Team Jose and Kitty, but Team Eric and Lyle as far as. Fair, fair.

Good clarification. We got to clarify things. We got to clarify now. Don't pull a Derek. No, I've done it. Yes. Facts. True.

That is true. In fact, I think you pulled a Stephanie. Yes. You know what? Touche. You pulled a Harlow Yes. You know what? Touche. You pulled a Harlow, but. Touche. What I will say, it's not like I'm on their side as in like, I totally understand why

you killed them, but I understand why you wanted to. Okay. I do. As do I, by the way. As do I. But going into a trial sort of environment, yes, we can definitely understand why Eric and Lyle would prefer that their crime be seen more as a crime of passion than something premeditated. Why? Because the sentencing is going to be different, right?

Premeditation is always going to carry a heavier sentence because you had time to plan. You also had time to change your mind. You had time to think about the implications. You also had time to escape. You had time to escape. You had time to think about the implications. And that's when we talk about these self-defense cases, right, all the time. What was the one with the woman and her husband?

They were in the kitchen. Danielle Redlich. Danielle Redlich. I knew it was danielle but um and then you know we kind of had gone back and forth is this self-defense did she have a chance to do anything else besides kill him right and that's a great example because that's one where we decided she probably didn't if what she's saying is true is right on the counter she's bent over the counter she thinks she's going to die in that moment. And she stabbed him. So

two different ends of the spectrum when it comes to the Menendez and here where you have a situation where there was some, think about it. There was some thought that went into this. Hey, we're going to go all the way out here. We're going to buy them under a different name. We're going to do all this. We're going to try to cover our tracks to make sure there's no connection, no ties to the guns to us. And even after the fact, when law enforcement asked them about it, they lie about it again there. So not good optically. I totally understand a premeditative kind of plan because you figured out now that even though you're above the age of 18, even though you're going away to college, your life is still not your own. This realization has sunk in and now you feel like you have to figure out an escape plan. You've got to figure out what to do next. It definitely, in my opinion, 100 million percent was premeditated and they purchased those guns on Friday knowing what they were going to do with them on Sunday.

Clearly. I only think the Menendez sympathizers, for the most part, if they're looking at this objectively, would listen to what you just said and say, well, I can see a version where, no, I think most people are pretty astute to true crime at this point and the different cases we've covered. And you don't have to be a detective to read that or hear that or see that and think, yeah, no, there was some planning that went on with this. So when we're going to get into some testimony today, though, where Eric and Lyle are going to sort of explain to you why it's not premeditated. I'm sure. So then you let me know from there. But let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. On Saturday, August 19th, one day before the murders, Jose Menendez, who had reportedly just closed a big deal, he decided to celebrate by chartering a boat to take his wife and his sons shark fishing.

When Eric and Lyle heard about this planned family activity, they were like, what? What is happening? Right. They were like, the things have been so tense. We've been arguing with our parents. They hate us. Why are we going out deep sea fishing with them? And they said their first thought was that their parents were bringing them out into the deep ocean to kill them. Eric Menendez said, quote, I remember the drive down to the marina. It was complete silence the entire way there. I swear to God, it felt like I was being driven to my grave. I remember seeing the boats and feeling just dread. Part of me just wanted to run. The idea of being alone on the ocean with nobody around. I was nervous and paranoid for a good reason.

Everything that mom and dad had told me had programmed into my head that I was in grave danger if I ever told Lyle. All of my life had come true. End quote. The captain of the boat, his name is Bob Anderson, he testified that as soon as the family boarded, he could tell there was a weird vibe. The boys immediately went to the bow of the boat and Kitty and Jose went down into the cabin. Eric said that nothing about the trip made sense and with everything else going on between them as a family, they should not have been out there. Bob Anderson said, quote, we actually took a wake over the bow and it got the boys soaked and the boys just sat there. They didn't bother going back to get a towel or anything to go warm up with. They sat out there in the cold breeze almost the whole trip, end quote.

Eric also said he doesn't even remember any fishing happening. And he and Lyle felt that the whole trip was a pretense and they knew they were there for another reason. Bob Anderson supported this, stating that he and the deckhand did everything, and none of the four Menendez family members, who were acting strange the whole time, ever came back and took part in any of the fishing activities. And Bob Anderson said that Jose Menendez had told him, hey, listen, like, I want to kind of see what the process is, like, how do you catch these sharks and then once you get them you know what do you what do you do with them and the whole process of i guess what do you do once you catch a fish you like gut it and stuff i don't know it's awful i don't go fishing gut it fillet it yeah jose wanted him to know the whole thing of course he did but then he wasn't actually there to watch

or take part in anything and bob anderson captain, he thought this was very strange. Once they docked, the family drove back to their mansion. The parents went inside. Eric and Lyle went to the guest house to their rooms. And then Eric said, quote, my dad was pounding on my door telling me to open the door of my bedroom. I remember holding the gun, sitting on my bed, waiting to see if he was going to break down the door. There was this terror coursing through me that this was it. It was all going to happen now. For the first time, I was going to confront my dad and not back down. The idea

was paralyzing. In my mind, it didn't even matter that I was holding this gun. I felt like as soon as my dad broke through the door, I was going to die, but I didn't care because I was never going to let my dad come in my room and do that again. End quote. So what do you make of this? Do you believe it? Do you not believe it? Because here's the thing, before you weigh in on it, we have to start, the abuse can all be true. We're past that point right now in this story, but we have to remember- We have to start looking critically at Eric and Lyle. We have, thank you. We have to start looking critically at Eric and Lyle. Thank you. We have to start looking critically and understanding that they are on trial for murder. So it would be in their best interest to embellish certain stories.

To make themselves as little culpable as possible. Correct. So what, so that said, what is, what's your gut reaction on these stories where there's no way to verify them at this point because Jose's deceased, but what's your, just your gut reaction when you were researching this and you read it and obviously writing it into the script? It's so difficult because my gut reaction is this whole, oh, they took us out to this fishing trip to kill us. It doesn't ring true to me. However, it's so difficult to say what the victims of long-term abuse are thinking in their head, because when you're in a situation, which I have been, of long-term abuse, you're not thinking in realistic terms always. You're conditioned to be paranoid. You're conditioned to feel afraid. You're conditioned to always be kept in check. And so you really

just don't. And I think, you know, Derek, I've been there and I've talked to you about these things like certain trips. You know, I'm like, well, I can't go on a trip with this person. I'm afraid that something's going to happen. Now, would something have happened? I don't know. But all I know is in my heart, in my gut, I felt like it was a bad idea. And I felt like when Eric said I felt like I was being driven to my grave, I felt that. But also that's my perception as somebody who's been in a similar situation. So is it valid?

And everything is so subjective. They could have genuinely felt that they were being brought on this fishing trip to be murdered by their parents. I don't know how they're going to do that when there's a ship captain and a deckhand. What's going to happen? You're going to toss your sons into the ocean and then tell Bob Anderson like, oh, Eric and Lyle took a dinghy back. What are you going to say? But also, once again, when you're. That's why this is difficult for, I think, anybody to wrap their heads around. And that's why, like you said, it's a mindset. It's an opinion. It's a feeling.

Can we disprove it or prove it? Not really. No, we can't. All we can do is evaluate their behavior before, during, and after our interactions with them. And as I said in part one, two, and three, I believe the abuse stories that they relayed to the court are true. To me, I said it in the episodes, I just, I believe them. I think they're very too descriptive and very embarrassing and tough to talk about and the detail that they had and the corroboration. I just, I believe them. But we do know they are capable of lying and that they are willing to lie in order to avoid some type of detection. We have that proof with the guns. So with these stories where, you know, they're willing to lie about something that can be unraveled, right? That can be retraced and found to be not credible. This is a story that there's,

again, it's a perception, it's a feeling they had. So even if you had video from that day, we don't know how they were feeling in that moment and we can't dispute it. But I do have some speculation as far as these stories and the possession of the gun and how he was feeling in that moment. And the only reason is because I now have some insight that they are willing to embellish or flat out lie in order to make themselves look a certain way. And so that's something that critically thinking I'm evaluating in conjunction with everything else as we go forward. Yeah. It's just, it's so difficult, but do I feel like, if you ask me what my gut is, do I feel like they're embellishing? I do. But also, I know that in similar situations, I've done things or thought things that in a normal level-headed, non-delusional mindset, I would not have. So it's just very difficult.

But you're not on trial for murder. That's true. And I never will be. Good point. So the following morning, which was Sunday, August 20th, this is the day Kitty and Jose are murdered. Eric claimed that he knew the best thing for him that day was to just stay out of the house because Lyle was going to once again try to talk to their parents, kind of get the temperature of where they were at. And Eric just didn't want to be around. So he said the tension was palpable as he left the home, got into his car, and he drove to Santa Monica.

And he said he kind of went to a church, he hung out at a church for a few hours, and then he went to the beach in Santa Monica, watched the sunset, and he stayed out way longer than he should have. Lyle had wanted him back earlier, but Eric just couldn't bring himself to go back. The brothers felt that it was better to be apart that day as much as possible, because if their parents were going to attack, it would be when they were together.

I'm going to talk about this, how I think that's stupid. But they also said it was smart to have one of them remain home so that Jose and Kitty didn't think they were, you know, filing a report at the police station together or telling somebody or running away or something like that. Now, I don't even get this whole, we thought it was better for Lyle to be home, but Eric to be gone, because if their parents were going to murder them, they would do it when they were together. That's not true, right? Why would you want to kill two people while they're together when they have a better chance of ganging up on you, when your odds are less likely that you can overpower them? What the hell's Kitty going to do, right? And you got Jose, is he going to take out

both Eric and Lyle at the same time? They're younger than him. They're strong. They're in good shape. They could overpower him. So why wouldn't Kitty and Jose just kill Lyle while Eric's out? And then when Eric gets home, they kill Eric. Exactly. It's the same thing. You're doing it out of sight of the public. You're not in a fishing boat where you have to explain to Bob Anderson where the hell your sons went in the middle of the ocean. You kill Lyle, Eric comes home, and then you get him. So this is what I'm saying.

This is where their story starts to fall apart because I don't disagree that they had a reason to want their parents dead, but it wasn't this thing where it was like, oh, we felt we had no choice. We felt they were going to kill us that weekend. Yeah. It's very contradicting in a lot of ways where it's like they built this case up to this point where everybody, for the most part, is behind them saying, yeah, based on what you're relaying to us, we all understand why you would want to kill them. But now they're saying, but, you know, we didn't plan it. We just were defending ourselves.

We have every reason to want to kill them, but we didn't still, with all this being said, we didn't want to. We were only doing it to protect ourselves because we didn't want to be abused anymore. But choosing to stay there, at least one of them,

because that's, you know, some people were in the comments too, where it's, Eric was obviously still living there. Lyle was not, correct? Correct. Well, I mean, it's still his home, where it's Eric was obviously still living there. Lyle was not. Correct. Correct. Well, I mean, it's still his home.

Right. Just like when you go to college. Yeah. When you go away to college, you don't just stop living at your parents. But he wasn't living there on a daily basis like Eric was. Well, he was home for the summer. For the summer. Yeah. So, yeah, it's one of those things where you build this case that everyone would understand why you would want to do this to your offenders.

But at the same time, you're trying to paint this picture that you didn't want to. It was just more of a defensive thing. So, yeah, it is very contradictory at this point. So according to Lyle, he did attempt to talk to his parents that day, but they seemed uninterested. He said it was like he was a ghost, like he was already dead. They acted as if he wasn't even there. So Jose and Kitty are in the living room or the den or whatever they call it. They're watching TV. They're just kind of hanging out.

And Lyle said he comes in and he's sort of, once again, just trying to like check their temperature, just kind of bring up little things, see how they react to it, which is once again, something I do understand when you're dealing with somebody who's abusive to you, you do that. You kind of start random, small talky conversations just to see what type of mood they're in that day. Like, how is my day going to go today? I've got to figure out where this person's head is at so that I can let my guard down a little bit or protect myself and remain vigilant. So Lyle says he comes in and he asked his father about a tennis camp that he was planning to attend that that month that summer and he said

that Jose sighed and replied it doesn't matter anymore and Lyle said this scared him almost as in like well it doesn't matter about this tennis camp like you're going to be dead so you're not you're not going to go to the tennis camp. So like, why are we even talking about it? And that was kind of the only response that Jose had. And then Lyle was like, holy shit. This is a huge indicator that something's going to go down like today. Right.

Once again, I don't, you could take that so many ways. Jose could just be pissed because yeah like our relationship's dead yeah you um have you and your brother are now talking about me and what i've done to you and we're we're gonna be estranged i feel like we're gonna be estranged and i don't want to have anything to do with you you don't have anything to do with me it doesn't matter i don't care do whatever you want right we. We're talking about perception again, right? Like we can't disprove that they believed that in the moment, but as you're laying out right now, there's a real chance that that's not what Jose Menendez senior meant by

it. He could, he could, he could, like you just said, he could have been meaning a lot of things. So yeah, like, I don't care what the hell you do, man. We're fighting. I'm mad at you. Even though I just brought you deep sea fishing for sharks. I don't know. Right. And this is important because, as in a lot of cases, especially if we have someone who's mentally unwell, they may perceive something that's not actually happening and carry out a behavior, kill someone, hurt someone, and they don't just get to walk away scot-free for it.

So in this example, which is not as extreme, even if we were to take what Lyle's saying at face value and that he really interpreted these words as, oh, they're going to take us out, you still can't beat them to the punch and kill them first. It's not going to justify the homicide. So one, the question is, did they actually perceive this? Did they actually believe this is what he meant? And secondly, even if they did, it still doesn't justify you killing them. It just, that's the, that's, that's the law. Yes. And I don't know. It just seems like a weird, it's not like Jose was like, well, you're going to, you're going to be dead or you're not going to, you know, uh, dead men can't attend tennis camps. Like that would be obviously more overt.

Right. Or pull out a gun and point it at them and say, you might not be here tomorrow. It's something just to, without a doubt. Or like tennis camps are the least of your problems, son. Right, right, right. I agree. I agree with your opinion.

Analysis. Yeah, your analysis. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back around 1 p.m that afternoon Lyle left a message on the answering machine of a man named Perry Berman Perry Berman had been Eric's tennis coach and then when he stopped coaching Eric he sort of became like a family friend so he became close to Lyle he became close coaching Eric, he sort of became like a family friend. So he became close to Lyle. He became close to Eric. And he was also, you know, on pretty good terms with Jose Menendez.

It was a call from Lyle. I returned the call, spoke to Mr. Menendez. He told me that Lyle was with Eric and he believed they were at the Beverly Center shopping. And approximately what time was that call made to Mr. Menendez? It was right after I received the message from Lyle, so it was around 1 o'clock in the afternoon. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Menendez on that day? Yes. Basically, I was speaking to Mr. Menendez. At that point, I was in the advertising industry and I wanted to make a career move into film distribution. And the fact that Mr. Menendez was CEO of Live Entertainment, which is a film distribution company, I felt that he could give me some really, really good advice regarding the industry

and maybe some contacts in the business as well. And he said that he was going on a business trip in the morning, and when he returned, he would call me, and we would get together one evening. You had that much of a rapport with him that you could contact him in that way? Yes. Some time later, did you get a call from Lyle Menendez? Yes, it was between 4 and 5 o'clock, I believe, in the afternoon. And what was the nature of that conversation?

That Lyle wanted to get together that evening, and I told him that I had plans to go to the Taste of L.A., which is a food festival at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium. and I was going with a friend of mine and then he was more than welcome to join us. We know with Eric of course. And how did he respond to that? He said that he had plans with Eric to go to see Batman, the movie Batman. And did you agree to meet sometime later? Oh yes. Lyle said that he would come after the movie was over, that the two boys, Lyle and Eric, would go to the Taste of LA around 9.30 that evening. And I stayed until about 10.15. It was a Sunday evening. They were basically closing up all the concessions. A lot of people were leaving, and my friend Todd and I just basically left. We couldn't find them. We left, came back to my place. Todd went home from there. Well, you waited at the Taste of L.A. in Santa Monica until about 10, 15 at night?

And you're with your friend Todd, Paul? That is correct. Okay, and you didn't see Lyle Menendez or his brother Eric that whole night at the Taste of L.A.? No. You didn't see Lyle Menendez or his brother Eric that whole night at the Taste of LA? Sometime later, you arrived home. How long did it take you to get home from Santa Monica? About half an hour. And the Taste of LA and Santa Monica, was that at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium? Civic Auditorium, yes.

Now, Lyle would later testify that Jose had lied to Perry on the phone about Lyle not being home when Perry had returned the call. And that was one of the reasons that Lyle had been so nervous that something was going to happen later that night because it was clear that Jose did not want he, Lyle, and Eric to go out that night with Perry Berman. Although Eric stayed away from the house most of the day, Lyle said he never left. So they were not at the Beverly Center together shopping that day. Lyle and Eric would later tell the police what they had done that night. They said they'd left home at around 8 p.m. So Eric had come home from being at the church and watching the sunset and he'd gotten home late. And he said

Lyle was mad at him because he got home later than he was supposed to. And then they left home around 8 p.m. They headed to Westwood Village to get tickets to the movie License to Kill, ironically. And according to the brother, the lines were too long to that movie. So they switched their plans and they went to Century City where they saw Batman, which was a movie they'd already seen. Now, at around 10 p.m. that night, Jose and Kitty were sitting on the couch in the den watching a movie. It was The Spy Who Loved Me, when two figures burst into the room armed with 12-gauge Mossberg shotguns. The gunmen were the couple's own sons. According to Eric and Lyle, the tension in the house had continued to rise all week, which is why they purchased the guns along with a box of bird shots.

Now, the brothers would also later testify that the following day they realized that the bird shot was probably not the best thing to use on people, even though they'd already loaded the gun with the bird shot shells. So they went to another store and they were questioning the clerk about what ammunition would be good for home defense and self-defense. And that's when they purchased a box of buckshot ammo. Now, for anybody who's not familiar, birdshot. So buckshot and birdshot both come in shells. But basically, birdshot are just these little pellets, very tiny pellets, and they go in the shells so that when you shoot the shell, it comes out instead of one single larger bullet,

just tons and tons of extremely fast moving, tiny little metal pellets, which, you know, if you're hunting birds, which once again, I don't fish, I don't hunt, I'm uncomfortable with all of it. But if you were hunting birds, and you were shooting at like a flock of geese, the birdshot would be good, because the geese are small, they're high up, and the birdshot's going to go in multiple different directions and you have a better chance of hitting your target or more than one of your targets. Buckshot is going to be something that's better used for, as it kind of suggests, bucks, deer, things like that. So still pellets, but bigger pellets. That's correct.

In a shell. Yeah. Yeah. Shell, the best way to describe it as birdshot, it's going to be 30 to 40 little BBs right in there. And describe the way you just did. It's going to spread out. It's going to make a bigger pattern, hit more of a larger area and not as much stopping power needed to take down what you're trying to take down. Buckshot, same thing. Still BBs, but much bigger BBs. Maybe 8 to 12 little BBs or pellets in there. And yes, not as much of a spread pattern.

Not needed because the target is much bigger. And then you also have slug, which we're not talking about here. But slug is one big round piece of lead or brass or whatever it is inside there. And it's just one, it's, it's, that's the biggest form of stopping power with the shotgun. And understand that something, a birdshot and buckshot, it's going to do a lot of damage to a human body. As soon as you said it, I said, yikes, because it's not pleasant and it won't necessarily kill you.

Yeah. I was just going to say that. It's not going to kill you right away. It's going to go in your body. It's going to do a lot of internal damage. It's going to be a slow and painful sort of death. Oh, yeah. If you've seen a BB gun, imagine 30 BBs hitting you at once. Very fast with a lot of power behind them.

Yeah. So you're saying they used BB or they used birdshot or buck in this incident? Both. Both. Okay. Thank you. Because they, because they reloaded, right? Yep.

They reloaded. Got it. Okay. Okay. I'm going to follow you. So they put, so they, they get the guns, they loaded the, they loaded them with the birdshot. Yep. And then the guns and the ammo, both types of ammo are in Lyle's Ford Escort, which is parked outside the front of the Menendez home.

So that night when Eric finally got home and he and Lyle were preparing to go out for the night with Perry Berman, the brothers alleged that their parents came out and they were like, you're not leaving. You're not going anywhere tonight. You cannot leave the house. And they left anyways, right? Because they were scared. So they leave, they drive away. And that's when they knew for sure that it was going down that evening, you know, with the weird things that Jose had said earlier. And then Jose lying to Perry and saying that Lyle and Eric weren't home.

So, you know, they couldn't make plans to go out with him that night. Now they knew for sure. Eric and Lyle said that when their parents told them, you can't leave, they left the house, but they didn't get in their car and drive away to meet Perry Berman or to go to the movie, License to Kill or Batman at that eight o'clock time. They went out to the Ford Escort, which was parked outside. They got the guns and they tried to remove the birdshot shells and replace them with the buckshot shells. And it looks like they did initially take the birdshot out, put the buckshot

in, and then they went inside to find their parents. Okay. I'm sorry to do this. I want to go back just like 30 seconds because I want to make sure I'm clear on this. We're getting into stuff that's really important. You had said earlier in the story that Lyle had described an incident where he had the gun in bed with him, and he was just hoping Jose couldn't get through the door to get to him. That was Eric. That was Eric, okay. Oh, but they both, so Lyle said he would keep the gun in his closet during the day,

but then at night when he got in bed, he'd put it in bed with him. And then Eric said on that Saturday night when he got home, his dad was pounding on his door and he was holding his gun thinking like, if he comes through the door, I'm going to shoot him. And we talked about that, that story at length and what we thought about it. So let me ask you this, when we're thinking about self-defense, why are the guns in the car? If you're so concerned about self-defense and having those guns at the ready, if Jose decides to attack at any moment, you want to have those guns near you. Having them out at the car is not going to help you in a self-defense situation. So again, that's just something that

I'm thinking about. It kind of seems like earlier in that day- They moved them. They had moved them to the car. Yes. You follow what I'm saying here? And then parked the car directly in front of the house, not in front of the guest house where Eric and Lyle had their quarters, their living quarters, in front of the mansion, the main house where Jose and Kitty lived. So just something that I'm bringing up as I'm going through these stories and trying to verify and check the validity of what they're saying from my experience and self-defense, the best place to put guns that you may have to use in a moment, especially at this heightened alert that they're allegedly at, you would want those guns as close as

possible, not outside the mansion in the escort. That's just my observation, but I didn't want to get you too far off track. It was just something that you said as far as the escort that I thought was very important. I also think it's interesting that Lyle said he didn't leave all day long and yet the car was strategically parked in front of the mansion with the guns in it. So if you didn't leave, it's not like you left and said, oh, let me bring the guns in case my father pursues me. I'll have them with me wherever I am.

They were placed there and they were loaded. So that, and that's what I'm saying. So optically, if you're presenting to the jury and you're presenting to law enforcement that you're in fear of your life, and at any moment, you're in fear that your father could come up to your room and murder you, you would more than likely want to have that firearm inside with you in case that happens. It would be with you, wherever you were. Yeah. Correct. So you can't in one breath say, I was in fear of my life. I had the gun with me because I was concerned

he was going to attack me, but then be in that house all day long with the gun nowhere near in arm's reach. So just again, that's what I'm thinking about from an investigator's perspective. Yeah, I do think it speaks to premeditation, which once again is fine. I mean-

Not only premeditation, but also kind of contradicts the idea that you were in fear that they were going to kill you at any moment because you were in the house all day without the gun. So it does two things and both are equally important. I don't know all day, but he was there without the gun that he had purchased allegedly. Well, it was in the, it was in the car, in the car, but we don't know when it, we don't know when it got in the car. He could have gotten in the car when when Eric got home and they were planning to go out. And then the parents were like, no, you can't go out. But they already put the guns in the car. Who knows? Either way, I don't think that's what happened. I think the guns were put But either way, these are things that I would be asking as I'm doing the investigation.

You were in fear. You had it on you. But now it's out in the car. Why is that? These are the questions that I would have. So I'm going to play you a clip. And this is Lyle talking about what happened that night. Now, your brother went into the room before you.

Is that correct? Right. Who fired first, you, your brother or you? I really don't know. I fired right away. As soon as you got through the door, you started firing? Right. Okay. And you have no idea what your parents were doing right before you started firing, is that correct? I don't have any idea. I thought they were in the process of looking for us.

Well, if they were in the process of looking for you, why would they be locked up in the den? I didn't know where they were. All I knew was they had been waiting for my brother to get home also. My brother was now home. We were not supposed to leave. And my brother was supposedly, my dad was probably thinking, waiting upstairs. And he had closed the doors, and they were now going to do it. And that was all that I was thinking, and I was going to burst through the doors and start firing.

With guns blazing, right? Right. Now, you've had an opportunity to look at the crime scene photographs, haven't you? No, except when they were here. Well, yes, in court. Have you had an opportunity to look at them in court? I looked at some of them, yes. You're aware of the fact that there were two misses through the French doors that lead out into the backyard? There may have been.

All the other shots hit the targets, didn't they? I have no idea. The room was dark. As soon as you fired, there was smoke. And we were firing. I remember glass shattering and I remember that there were huge noises that seemed all around me and I was just firing as many times as I could. Okay, so you came in through the French doors and you just started to fire. Is that correct? When I saw something move toward me, I fired at it. And when that thing moved toward you, it wasn't armed with any kind of weapon, was it? Well, it was my dad, and I don't... I didn't know that. I thought that they were armed.

With what? Guns. From where? I thought they were in the process of killing us. I thought that they had had guns. We assumed they had planned this in advance. You came in through the French doors, preceded by your brother, right? My brother in front of me, right. Right, okay. And your father was off to your right, and it's your testimony that he was rising. I don't know if he was, no, I just saw, I couldn't see his body that well. All I could see was that there was somebody there and that was coming for me.

Now, right before you came into this room, had you been in darkness? In other words, had you been outdoors, right, loading the gun? Right. And it was dark outside? Yes. Okay, and when you came in through the house, was the house dark? No, the foyer was lit. All right, and then when you came into this room, it was dark again? Yes. Okay and when you came in through the house was the house dark? No the foyer was lit. All right and then when you came into this room it was dark again? Right. But the television set was on wasn't it? I saw later that it was on

yes. And there was light coming from the television set when you went into the room? Yes there was. Were there lights on in the kitchen at that time? I don't remember. Right, and it's your testimony now today that when you got into the room you couldn't see very well. Is that correct? Right, you couldn't see very well at all. Now, you started shooting at your father. By the way, did anyone make any noise? Did your parents make any noise as they were being killed? They may have. I didn't hear any noise. All I could hear was the booming noises from the guns. Now the wound to your father's leg, which starts on the inside of his thigh and goes to the outside,

how did he get that? I have no idea. Well, if he was on the sofa, someone would have had to be either behind the sofa or over in this area in order to have inflicted the wound on his thigh. Objection argumentative. Would they have? Well I don't think he was on the sofa. I think he was standing right around like in front of that coffee table which I don't remember

being in the position that it is there. It was straight and he was standing in front of it like on this side of it. All right and do you remember where on his body you shot him the first time you shot him? No. Do you know where your mother was when you started shooting your father? Somewhere to his right. Could you see her when you started shooting your father? I could see someone over to the right, yes. Where was your brother when you started shooting your father? I could see someone over to the right, yes. Where was your brother when you started shooting your father?

Somewhere in that part of the room. He had run into that part of the room. When you say in that part of the room, near the coffee table? Like in front of the television set. I don't know. He was off to my left. I wasn't thinking about my brother. I was just thinking about firing.

Wow. Yeah, that's all I can really say. To me, there's a lot. I mean, I was just thinking about firing. Wow. Yeah. That's, that's all I can really say to me. There's a lot. I mean, I guess I can say more. There's a lot to unpack there. Obviously the room was pretty well lit. We've all been in a dark room with a TV on. It lights up the room, the room pretty bright. They clearly knew who they were shooting at, where they were in the room, what they were doing. And they're presenting it as, again, I'm just taking them at their word. They kick open the doors, they swing open the doors and they run into the room with shotguns. Even if Jose stood up in that moment or a lunge towards them,

that's something that I would think I would do if I had two men run into the room with guns, even if it takes me a second to process who they are. Even if he did process who they were and realized it was his sons, his reaction may had been to lunge towards them because he knew what was about to go down. But the idea that what Eric was saying there that, oh, you know, we were under the impression they were behind closed doors plotting our murders as we were loading up the guns. And the prosecutor, I'm assuming that was a prosecutor there said, well, what, what guns would, where would these guns come from? Because it seems like they didn't own firearms as far as anybody knew. So she's calling them out saying they never owned guns. Did you think they went out and bought guns just like you did? And this was going to be a shootout in the middle of the mansion right in that moment. So she's trying to poke holes in

the story, basically saying, listen, you guys loaded up the guns. Your poor parents are sitting on the couch watching TV. You and your brother ran into the room, surrounded them and blew them away. Just firing rapidly with 12 gauge shotguns. That's what she's saying. And then there's evidence that the way Lyle and Eric said it went down is the way it went down as far as the mechanics of it. Yeah, the ballistics and stuff. They busted in the room. They started shooting. Most of the wounds to Kitty and Jose were distance shots, with the exception of the fatal wounds, which we're going to talk about in a second.

Right. And they would end up on the couch even if they weren't sitting when they got shot because the force, the sheer force of being shot, could have knocked them back into the seats. They were 100% sitting on the couch when it happened. But the idea that maybe Jose had stood up to say, what are you doing? I don't think so. I mean, I'm just, I'm throwing it out there as a possibility. So what it is, it's like a sectional kind of, right? So it's like shaped like an L.

So there's the long part and then the shorter part that kind of comes out making the smaller part of the L. Jose is right at the end of the longer part, still seated. And we're going to talk about where Kitty was in a minute because there were things that happened between Jose and Kitty being killed. But Jose was still in that seated position on the couch. And the fatal wound that killed him came from behind. And we're going to talk about that in a second, but let's go to a break. We'll be right back. So later, Lyle kind of had an interview and he said this. He said, quote, we were running in and the room was dark,

obviously. So the TV was on and there were like shadows and some shadow moved toward me. I started blasting and my brother started firing. We continued to fire and there was still movement. Somebody was scrambling around the coffee table is all I could barely see because the room was so smoky. The room was smoky because of what? The gunfire.

That's fair. Yeah. All I could feel was lots of shots going around the room was so smoky. The room was smoky because of what? The gunfire. Yep, that's fair. Yeah. All I could feel was lots of shots going around the room and the pellets bouncing off from the shotgun. I didn't know what was going on. I just ran out of the room and got another shell and ran back in the room. And it was dark and smoky and fired again at the person I had seen at the coffee table. I was in a crazed state. I came back in the room and shot a final time.

Turned out to be my mother, which is a great unfortunate thing for me. But I didn't think about it at the time. And I just dropped my gun and went into the foyer and waited. I just slumped against the wall. I was exhausted from the event. And my brother was there, I guess, in the room too. I waited in the foyer for the police to come. I figured, all right, I guess I'm going to jail, but at least I'm going to give it my best shot to explain to them what happened. And they never showed up. Nobody ever called. Whatever it is, 12 shots in the middle of Beverly Hills, nobody called. Everybody in the neighborhood heard it too, because they got about 10 people coming in to testify at trial saying they heard the shots, but nobody called. They just figured, oh, it's Beverly Hills. It can't be. So we waited. I must've waited there 10 minutes. And finally, my brother and I kind of like snapped to it and said, listen, let's get the fuck out of here. And maybe we can come up with an alibi or something. I'm sure as hell not going to call the police and turn myself in. And so that's what I did. I left, end quote. All right. So let's talk about this for a second. Yeah, I think it's it's a strange statement. He's he he acts like he didn't even know who was in the room. You know, like I just saw shadows and one of the shadows moved towards me. And then I reloaded and I came back in and shot at the shadow moving and it turned out to be my mother. Who else the hell would it be? You know, your father and your mother are the only two people in the room. Yeah. And it wouldn't be shadowy if they're watching TV.

I mean, everyone here- So when you say shadows, you mean your father and your mother. Right. You know who's there. It's depersonalizing sort of language. I just saw shadows. Could have been anybody. Yeah.

I also think they're arguing like, oh, we don't know. I think it could be the intention behind that is I couldn't really make him out. Did he have a gun in his hand too? Yes, exactly. We didn't know what the situation was. We just started firing. Yep. We didn't know what it was. We didn't know if he had a gun he was about to pull out. I could barely see. I just was defending myself. That's the narrative you're trying to paint. And he does a lot of this during the trial where she's like, well, who shot first? Well,

I can't really remember. Well, did anybody say anything when you were shooting? Like, did your parents say, I can't really remember. I can't really remember anything. Like, I was just so out of it. You know purchased the guns for protection, but on that night, they were so sure they were going to be attacked and killed by their parents. So it was really an us or them kind of situation. They also claimed that they originally had no plans of getting away with anything. They assumed somebody would call the police and then the police would come and arrest them and then they would tell them what happened. But only when that did not happen, when the police did not show up, when nobody called, did they decide to try and come up with an alibi for their whereabouts that evening. Only then did they decide to try and get away with it. At that point, when we decided that we were going to try

and avoid them knowing it was us, that they might still show up somehow. Maybe they were just, I just had this sense that now that we'd made this decision, now they might still show up somehow maybe they were just i just had this sense that now that we've made this decision now they might show up and so i wanted to get out of the house fast um and at some point i had uh reached the idea that i wanted to pick up the shells or one of us did i really don't know who it was and so we decided to do that first but i was very concerned about getting out of the house so we didn't stay there decide what we were going to tell them and all that we just wanted to leave first

So after we picked up the shells we got in the car, and then that's when we started discussing That we would say we were at the movies So when you made the decision to pick up the shells was that something you discussed with your brother or something that you? Decision you made on your own? I really don't remember. But it was your state of mind at the time that you needed to pick up the shells because of fingerprints. Right. And before you loaded the gun and went in the house, did you think about the fingerprints? Or was it after you killed your parents that the idea was?

No, it was, sorry. After the idea of, after you killed your parents that the idea came to you? Right. It was afterwards? It was after. Okay. And you were very upset at that time, correct? No, I was feeling numb and exhausted and very, very in shock of what had happened. And, I mean, it's hard to describe what I was feeling because I was sort of numb but uh

certainly at that point this is now this new thing that something bad was going to happen um with the police and to get out of there would you say that you were thinking clearly during the time that you made the decision to pick up the shotgun shells? No. That's why not. Were you confused? Yes. Were you frightened? Yes. And yet you still had the presence of mind, did you not, to think about fingerprints? The thought came to me about fingerprints and so I picked up the shells.

How many shells did you pick up? Well, we ended up picking up all of them but i really didn't know at the time we just were sort of i don't remember that well and i i do remember being very surprised that we had picked up all of them because we there was no attempt that i remember to search carefully or anything of that sort just the ones that were in plain view and what lighting did you use to pick up the shotgun shells we turned on the lights were you at all concerned that by turning on the lights you might observe anybody you might cause someone to notice that a light had gone on in the house after all these loud noises had

gone on well we really we weren these loud noises had gone on? Well, we really, we weren't thinking. I didn't think that at all. You weren't thinking? No. But you were thinking about fingerprints which could incriminate you and cause you to be arrested, right? Right. And you were thinking very clearly that you did not want to be arrested, correct? Yeah, not clearly, but that I did not want to have to explain what happened and that I did not want to be arrested.

And a lot of the things, the decisions don't make sense, but I just wasn't thinking clearly. But you were thinking clearly about the fingerprints, right? Not really, but it was a thought that I had no thought before all this happened about somebody finding out and so on. It just wasn't in my mind. And so suddenly I was having to think about the police and whether they could figure out that we were involved. And then that's when these things started coming to me about fingerprints and having to say that we were someplace and getting rid of the guns and things like that. Did you go over to either one of your parents when you went to recover the shells and check to see if they still had a pulse? No.

Were you fairly confident that they were both dead? Yes. And you knew that because you'd inflicted a contact wound to the back of your father's head, correct? I really wasn't thinking about that at the time. I just knew that they were dead. You were sure of that, is that correct? Yes. Now, when you went to pick up the shells, did your brother help you? Yes.

And were any of the shells, did any of the shells have blood on them or any kind of tissue on them that you can recall? I don't remember. Did you have to go into the area where your parents were found, that is, between the coffee table and the sofa, did you have to go into there to get any of the shells? I don't believe that I did. Again, I just remember picking up the ones that were in plain view. But maybe my brother did, but I don't have any memory of it.

So, yeah, we're going to talk about the shells in a minute. But basically, they grabbed every single shell almost. They were very thorough. Yeah. And he makes it seem like we didn't really search for these shells. We just grabbed the ones that were in plain view because it's going to seem weird if you sort of picked around the bodies of your parents to grab these shells. And to be fair, because they're birdshot and buckshot, there's not a ton of shells to grab. It's not like they shot, you know, a hundred bullets and they got to grab a hundred shells. It's not like they're a,

what was that case we did with the family and they just had grab a hundred shells it's not like they're uh what was that case we did with the family and they just had piked in piked in yeah they just had a ton of the rodent family massacre and uh they just had a ton of shells sitting in their yard yeah there would have been you know tops 20 shells to grab but still you would have had to do some searching you know and they said they turned the lights on now so like your parents bloodied and destroyed bodies are just in plain view now. And you're looking around for shells. You're going to see their bodies. And, you know, if you were numb and if you were, you know, in shock and things, how would you be able to do that? But yeah, well, you could tell what the prosecutor is doing there. And I'm not saying

you have to agree with it or not, but the prosecutor did a pretty good number on lyle on that one because you can tell he's trying to steer the narrative toward oh we this was like a crime of passion fight or flight situation we was in the moment we weren't thinking clearly we just acted right and she's saying but you had the you had the know-how to pick up all the shells you were able to to collect yourself enough. Yeah, not only pick up the shells, but for the reason of forensics. And you turned on the lights and you made sure you didn't miss a single one. But you want us to believe

that you did this just in the moment where you weren't really thinking clearly and it was just something that you did. They did it in the moment and then they were like fully anticipating being arrested for it. They were like, we're going to take our medicine. Right.

But then when the police didn't show up, they're like, okay, now, that's when we can get away with it. Fingerprints. They're trying to show we didn't premeditate this because we didn't, you know, plan all this stuff ahead of time to get away with it. We only decided to get away with it after the murders. Therefore, how could it be premeditation? That's postmeditation.

Yeah. Yeah, postmeditation. Yeah, no. So it's. We should name this episode postmeditation. Yeah. Yeah. Postmeditation. Yeah. No. So it's. We should name this episode postmeditation. Postmeditation. Yeah, exactly. No, it's, she did a good job there of showing you guys were aware and cognizant of what you just did. And immediately after murdering your parents, you still had, you were still collected enough to say, hey, you know what, let's pick up all the rounds because that's how the police could tie it to us. Make sure we get all the shell casings. So that's one less thing they have to connect us to it. Because if we catch all the shotgun shells, well, now they can't connect

it to a gun that was used. And if we get rid of the guns as well, now they really don't have the murder weapons, which makes it harder to track it back to us, which by the way, we purchased those guns under a fictitious name. So we're doing a really great job here. We might get away with this one. We didn't premeditate this, but it just all fell into place. It's a pretty good spontaneous murder. It's a pretty good job. But not premeditated. But not premeditated. So and remember, after their parents were killed, before they they'd admitted to being the ones doing the killing, they told the cops, oh, we weren't even home. We went to the movies and and then we went to, you know, meet our friend Perry Berman at the Taste of LA Festival.

And then we came home and that's when they left the house and they drove to the AMC in the Century City shopping mall to buy tickets to the 8.15 p.m. screening of License to Kill. Even though by that time it was already 10.30. So they figured if they bought tickets to a movie that had a start time before their parents had been killed and had an end time after their parents had been killed, this would provide them a solid alibi. However, there was no tickets left to that show. And it wouldn't have mattered anyways, because the brothers were told that they could only be sold tickets to a movie up to 20 minutes after the start time, which is what they found out when they tried to buy tickets for Batman, also a movie that had started, I believe it started at like nine o'clock or something. So it still would have put them in that window of

being at the movies when their parents were killed. If they'd been smart, they would have bought the tickets ahead of time, which would suggest premeditation, but they didn't. So I guess in that case, that's evidence of their post-meditation claim. Yeah, that's fair. I'll give him that. However, I will go back and say that Lyle had called Perry Berman earlier and been like, yo, what are you up to tonight, dude? And Perry was like, I'm going to go to the Taste of LA Festival. And Lyle was like, oh, me and Eric will meet you there.

So that would suggest premeditation, which they were making plans to meet up with somebody that night who could say, yeah, oh, they were planning to meet up with me. They just didn't get there in time. Yeah. You know, we're still really early in this, but my initial gut reaction is there's a world where they think, hey, we're going to kill them and law enforcement might show up. And if they do, we're going to say that they attacked us. We had to defend ourselves. And, you know, that's what happened. They were lunging at us. They were trying to hurt us. We defended ourselves. We killed them. That's what happened. Here we are. That's it. But when

they felt like there was an opportunity to get away and maybe completely remove themselves from the situation where they wouldn't have to even justify self-defense, they decided to go that route. Maybe they had weighed out both sides saying, hey, law enforcement shows up, we say self-defense. If they don't, we try to separate ourself from the crime completely. That might've been the plan going into it. And so now Eric and Lila are at this movie theater

and they're like, oh shit. So they bought tickets to the next showing of Batman, which started like, I think at 10.50 or something. And they were just hoping that the tickets didn't show the time of the movie, but then they got the tickets and it did show the time of the movie and they were like, ah, shit.

And then they threw the tickets out and they left the movie theater. And then they then went to Coldwater Canyon Drive. Coldwater Canyon Drive connects Beverly Hills to Studio City in the San Fernando Valley. So they could throw the guns over the road into the canyon. And then the brothers drove to Santa Monica to meet Perry Berman at the Taste of LA Food Festival. But first they changed in the backseat of Lyle's car.

Now, once again, they didn't have extra clothes on them, which would suggest a post-meditation defense because they just had like tennis clothes that were in a gym bag that was in Lyle's car. So they kind of put on like tennis clothes and got rid of their bloody clothes, which, you know, would be pretty bloody. So that would kind of suggest that they hadn't planned it because they had the guns in the car, but they didn't have like changes of clothes or anything like that. But by the time they got to the Taste of L.A. Food Festival, the festival was early. They'd arrived too late. All the vendors were closing up. So they called Perry Berman from a payphone and they still wanted to make plans to meet with Perry. And here's what I think. I think they wanted Perry to meet them at the Beverly Hills mansion so that Perry could be with them when they discovered the bodies. Because Eric and Lyle are like, hey, Perry, meet us at the Cheesecake Factory. Perry's already done been home in bed.

And he's like, I really don't want to. I'm like home in bed. And they're like, no, no, we really want to meet. Like, we really want to hang out tonight. So he's like, fine. I'll meet you at the Cheesecake Factory. And Lyle was like, well, can you meet us at home? Because Eric wants to get his fake ID so that, you know, he can get a couple drinks and he can have some drinks with us tonight. And Perry was like, no, I'm not meeting you at your goddamn house, man. I'm in bed. He's like, I'll meet you at the Cheesecake Factory. Perry Berman goes to the Cheesecake Factory.

They're closing up because of this time. It's like pushing 11 o'clock, right? They're closing up. He waits in the parking lot for Eric and Lyle because he doesn't see their car. They never show up. So he goes inside the restaurant and the waiters are like wiping down tables, putting chairs up so they can vacuum. And he's like, hey, did you see these two young brothers? Like they look like this. You know, they're about this age. And the people in the Cheesecake Factory are like, no, nobody like that's ever hasn't come in here tonight. And so Perry's like, what the heck? He goes back out to the parking lot, gets in his car and he hears sirens.

And he's like, hmm, because he's right around the corner, actually, from the Menendez home. And he's like, what's going on? And they're headed in the direction of the Menendez home. And something in him tells him he should go to Jose Menendez's Beverly Hills mansion and see what's up. So he goes there. Now, they definitely wanted Perry to meet them at the mansion so that he could be with them when they discovered the bodies. So that they could say like, oh, we were with him tonight. That's right. Even though I feel like Perry would have been like, yeah, they've been with me for five

minutes. But anyways, so Eric and Lyle are not going to meet Perry Berman at the mansion. He's like, no, I'll be at the Cheesecake Factory. They go home allegedly to get Eric's fake ID, but they're not. They're going back to the murder scene they just left like an hour

earlier. And that's when they found their parents' dead bodies. And that's when they found their parents' dead bodies. And that's Sorry to kill my parents. What? Who? Are they still there? Yes. The people? No, no, no. Were they shot? Yes, Matthew.

Were they shot? Yes. They were shot? Yes. What happened? What happened? Stay down! I have a hysterical person on. I'm trying to get to him further. I don't even know if he's funny. Is the person still there? What happened?

We have you meet your own. What happened? I don't know. Who shot who? You came home and found who shot Let me talk to Eric Who is the person that was shot? My mom and my dad. Your mom and dad?

My mom and my dad. Okay, hold on a second. Okay, we're on our way over there with an ambulance. Okay, I gotta go. Okay, I'm going to throw us to our last break. But first, but first. Yeah. The end of the call.

Okay, I gotta go. I couldn't take it. Every time I hear it, like... Yeah, take us to our last break. Break? We gotta discuss this. Oh, yeah. We'll be back last break.

I've heard this 911 call before. I have never. But hearing it after seeing them testify during the trial and knowing what they had just done, you know, an hour before or an hour or two before, it's like, so, I mean, obviously, if you killed your parents one way or the other it's going to be a traumatic event and you're going to be upset but they were able to call perry berman from a pay phone and not be sobbing so they were able to turn on the the the tragedy and the sorrow and the you know soul crushing sobs when they called 911. So. Yeah, this is damaging in a lot of ways. This is damaging in a lot of ways.

And here's my opinion on why. A judge is sitting there listening to all of this. Was this a judge trial or was this a jury trial as well? Both. Okay. So a jury is sitting here as well. And as I've said from episode number one, they are trying to evaluate the statements and the credibility of those statements of Eric and Lyle this entire time. And that includes everything.

That includes the abuse. That includes the premeditation versus not premeditated. Every single thing that they're getting up there and conveying to the prosecutor, to the defense attorney, the jury is sitting there trying to decide, are they lying to us? They don't know these individuals. This is the first time they're meeting them. And if I didn't know what I knew as far as them killing their parents, and I'm a former detective i found that call other than the last part of it okay i gotta go very believable very believable very believable and now take that and he's like eric get away from them yeah it's it's very believable but now a jury is watching

that knowing that the man who's they're hearing on that call is admitting on the stand in front of them that he shot his parents from 10 feet away, multiple times without a care in the world. And it, what it does is it not only brings into question the murder and the pre meditation verse, not it brings into question everything because now you don't know if you can trust this guy. Now you don't know if everything

he's told you up to this point is true. It's the boy that cried wolf, right? It's like- This guy's good. We talked in, I think it was episode maybe two or three, that he's not an actor or anything. I'll tell you what- Could have been. Damn. Could have been. Not that we're saying they're acting because I do know that when you have that much pain inside of you, you kind of learn to turn it on and off because you can't just be walking around all day long sobbing and crying. So you can you can release it. You can open that valve and release it. But you mostly learn how to

kind of keep it contained when you need to. So not that they're necessarily acting, but. Listen, yeah, no, they're there.'re and by the way i'm not saying whether i believe them or not but this is what a jury and a judge is thinking i'll tell you this i still believe the abuse i still believe everything they said i still believe all that to me it still holds true but you can't sit there as a human being and not think that now the jury's listening to this video recording and saying, wow, this guy is a sociopath. He's a liar. And what else is he lying about? If he's lying about this, what else has he misled us on during this trial? And it's something to think about when

we're talking about what ends up happening to the Menendez brothers as far as this trial and as far as the sentencing. If you don't think this stuff right here matters, you're wrong. It definitely does. Yeah. So let's talk about the crime scene a little bit in the state of Jose and Kitty Menendez's bodies. There was so much blood in the den of that Beverly Hills mansion that the forensic crime scene investigator, Carl Fogg, he claimed it was the only crime scene he had attended where he needed an umbrella to walk into. Jose Menendez, he was found on the couch. He'd suffered multiple gunshot wounds to his head, body, extremities. But the fatal shot had happened when Lyle put the gun to the back

of his father's head and fired. The autopsy report stated, quote, death is attributed to multiple shotgun wounds. A total number of five are identified. A shotgun pellet wound of the chest wall appears related to one of the shotgun wounds of the upper right extremity. There was evidence of close range firing with the shotgun wound of the head identified as a contact type wound. There was no other evidence of close range firing and no soot deposit of gunpowder stippling on any of the other entrance wounds, end quote. Which means that, like I said, the majority of the shots were far. But the fatal shot was when Lyle put the gun directly to the back of his father's head and shot.

Executed him. The back of his. Yep. The back of his father's head. Without a doubt, executed him. So was Jose Menendez standing up? No, he was sitting on the couch. No, no, no. What I'm saying is, I still think what I said could be true. If Jose sitting on the couch and two gunmen storm into the room, it could have been Jose's reaction to at least stand

up off the couch and go, oh, what are you guys doing? Or, you know, Eric Lyle, what's the guns for? Just anything, just standing up. As soon as they start shooting, he could fall right back into his seat. So there was some questions by the prosecutor where she wasn't sure. And even Lyle himself said, no, when we started shooting, my dad was standing near the coffee table. That could be true. He was sitting in a seat. He stands up. Now he's between the coffee table and the couch. Just the mere force of that shotgun shell is going to knock him back into his seat. So the first shot blows him back into his seat. And then he's obviously half dead or already deceased. Incapacitated, yeah.

Incapacitated at least. And that's when he walks around and executes him to ensure that he's dead, which is cold-blooded because- Well, he wasn't dead when that shot. That was the shot that killed him. Yeah. So they still think he was breathing. Because remember, they're using birdshot, they're using buckshot. It's going to tear through a body, but it's going to take a little bit longer. It's going to do damage to the internal organs. You're going to have to bleed out from something like that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Depending on how many seconds it took, I guess he could still be breathing. So you might consider the shot to the back of the head a

mercy at that point if that buckshot hits him in the heart in the chest man he'd bleed out pretty quick but still it would take longer than a few seconds a slug yeah yeah so uh kitty she was found on the floor between the couch and the coffee table she was lying on her right side she had been shot multiple times in the head and face area, as well as her arms and legs. In Carl Fogg's book, Beverly Hills Confidential, he writes, quote, Jose was shot six times, slumped over body, still in macabre seated position on the couch in their family room. His wife, Kitty, had fallen between the couch and coffee table. She'd been shot 10 times.

Half of her face was torn off by bullets. Her right thumb was almost completely severed, and her left leg had a large bullet wound in the knee. It was also broken and bent at a 45-degree angle. Perhaps nothing drives home the gruesome nature of the attack more than this fact that never made the news. As a group of investigators prepared to bag up Mr. Menendez's bullet-ridden body, his brain detached from his skull and slid across the marble floor. Even the most hardened professionals had to leave the room, end quote.

So what happened is they come in the room and I read a quote. I can't remember where it was from now, but it stuck with me. But I can't remember because I went through newspapers.com. I read tons of articles. I read a book and I listened to all the testimony.

I can't remember where this quote was from, but it said, Eric shot first, but Lyle shot best. It was Lyle who was responsible for both the fatal shots to his mother and to his father. So Kitty had a close range shot to her face as well. And Jose did to the back of his head. And it was Lyle who was the giver of both of those fatal shots. So obviously there's birdshot and buckshot pellets everywhere, gun smoke hanging in the air, thick and ominous. There's blood covering the couch, the walls, the floors. Kitty and Jose were both dressed in sweatpants and sweatshirts, completely soaked in blood, holes in their clothes. Police Sergeant Mo Angel, who was one of the first law enforcement personnel on the scene, would describe the crime scene as completely horrific. Sitting amongst the carnage

were gleaming tennis trophies bearing Eric and Lyle's names carefully placed on bookshelves and a UCLA application that Kitty had been working on for Eric sat on the coffee table by her almost unrecognizable body. As I said, the majority of the shots fired at the couple were distance shots, meaning that Eric and Lyle had, true to their words, started firing as soon as they entered the room. And this is indicated by the presence of spread out bullet wounds on the bodies, with the exception of the two contact wounds where the pellets and gunpowder entered all together in that one compact wound. There were 20 shots fired in all, with Jose sustaining six and Kitty sustaining 10. All but two wounds were buckshot because once they had come in, started, you know, basically just shooting bullets everywhere. Lyle then kills his father with that shot to the back of the head. Kitty's been shot. She's fallen off the couch, but she's still alive. They went back out to the car and reloaded. And that's when they put the birdshot in.

And then they came back and killed their mother. And that's when they realized they'd accidentally reloaded with the birdshot. But at that point, it didn't matter because a close enough wound, even with birdshot, is extent to make sure that they accomplished what they were intending to do. And like you said, the reloading of the bullets, man, it takes a cold-blooded person to do that. It really does. I don't care what they've done to you. And now we could have this conversation now. We don't have to. You and I have talked about it before. If someone had done something like what they're accused of doing to one of our children, uh, what we would do. And we never condone violence. We were in a, we have a big platform. We can't sit up here ethically and professionally and say, Hey, if this happens to you, you should go kill the person. We're only talking about what we would do. But regardless of that,

Eric and Lyle, they set their minds on this. We don't know what the motive was behind it, but there's no doubt in anyone's mind at this point that regardless of motive, their intention was clear. They were going to kill their parents and they were going to make sure that they were dead before they left that house. I want to throw one more thing at you. And it's a little bit out of left field, but ballistically, there's nothing to dispute it at this point. I want to throw it out there. Maybe it's% factual based on ballistics. What ballistics cannot determine is the timing of when those shootings occurred. They can tell the sequence maybe, but not when they started firing. And why I bring that up is this, something that I believe Lyle said that was very interesting to me was after seeing the layout of the room, that diagram, it looks like there's

the main foyer entry, right? The big double doors. But then there's also another exit towards the kitchen because the prosecutor had said in another clip, oh, were the lights from the kitchen on, right? So technically, if they had came into the room and stayed to the right of that foyer door, there was a potential that Jose or Kitty could run out of the room and stayed to the right of that foyer door, there was a potential that Jose or Kitty could run out of the room and escape, right? But Lyle said that when he went in the room, Eric went in front of the TV. He went over to the left near the TV, which is also in the path of the kitchen exit, right? To get out to the kitchen. So just a little theory, never be able to prove it, but you could have had a situation where Eric and Lyle storm into the room.

Eric stays to the left to block off the manner of escape to the kitchen and Lyle standing in front of the foyer doors. And maybe Jose stands up and maybe there's a brief conversation because we don't know how long this took place, right? They said they came in, they did what they did, but for all we know, there was a conversation that took place in that moment. And considering what was done to them and how much resentment and anger they had towards Jose and Kitty, do I think it's possible that before killing them, there was an exchange of words and a conversation where they said, you know why this is happening. You know what you did to us and you stood by and watched it and Jose pushed back or

whatever. Now he's standing and they're arguing. And as that, that arguments escalating, that's when they both start firing. So again, they're telling, we only have one version of this narrative and it's from someone who was crying on the phone to law enforcement and we know that was a lie. So is it possible that they ran in there and started shooting without saying a word? Maybe. Based on everything we know and what was done to them and what we believe was done to them

and all the other conversations that had led up to this that we believe happened, I would be very surprised if there wasn't a brief altercation or conversation between them where they said, you know what you did to us and you deserve this. Just throwing that out to you. I agree because this is a situation that you would want to- Confront your accuser. Confront your accuser, yeah.

You're about to meet your maker and here's why exactly now you can answer to them now you can answer to them but of course yeah of course i mean yeah i mean even if you think about they they shot and then they had to go back out and reload to get kitty like she didn't say anything she wasn't crying out she wasn't i i find it hard to believe i think there was to believe. I think there was probably some conversation. I think there was probably something that was said, maybe, who knows, who knows? I'm not going to even speculate, but I find it hard to believe that they ran in their SWAT style and kind of, but when he said, oh, Eric was off to my, he was over near

their TV. Well, if you just ran it, like when we go into a house for a SWAT team, when we enter a house, what we'll do from a tactical standpoint is we will go left to right, left to right. And we'll run in different directions as we enter the room, because what it does is it confuses the attacker, the person in the room, if they have a gun, because now you have subjects running left to right. But that's something we train for all the time to go in and then kind of divert multiple directions to confuse anybody that's in the room and potentially in and then kind of divert multiple directions to confuse anybody that's in the room and potentially in possession of a firearm.

I don't think Eric and Lyle were tactically trained like that. So to me, it's something where they didn't want a situation where they run in and Jose or Kitty run out of the room the opposite way as they're standing off to the right. So maybe they went in and spread out wide to block both exits. And that's when the altercation occurred. It just makes sense. And I don't know if he meant to say that, but he said it and it made sense that, oh, that was planned to block that exit. So there was nowhere for them to go. And you're going to find that Eric and Lyle, once they're interviewed by police, initially, they're going to say, oh, we think it was a mafia hit, you know.

And they they had allegedly, according to the prosecution, sort of shot their parents in a way to make it look like that, like hit their legs first, you know, like maybe a mafia gang would do or whatever. But they were in the early reporting of this case, you can see that they're actually the papers are going with this theory like, oh, yeah, there is, you know, known mafia ties to this company that Jose worked like they're exploring this angle because everyone found it impossible to believe that these two clean cut pastel sweater wearing boys would have done this to their parents. Right. Fair. And if you just watch this trial and didn't know anything and they weren't admitting to it, they come off pretty credible to a certain to a certain degree. That's what's so hard about these cases. We know what they did. But imagine if we didn't. There would be a lot of people believing, I don't think they killed them.

100%. Well, you're going to find out even the police didn't entertain that possibility. Exactly. At 11.49 p.m., Beverly Hills Patrol Officer Mike Budkis and his partner, John Zarnacki, received an urgent dispatch of a reported shooting at the Menendez residence. They were warned to approach with extreme caution as the killer or killers could still be on the property. A minute, minute and a half went by when I heard some screaming from the front of 722 North Elm. It was coming from the front door of the house, 722.

The entire area was nighttime, obviously. It was very dark. The street lights were the only illumination and the house was not illuminated in any way, any other light type of lighting. So it was very dark. And what happened after you heard the screaming? Then two individuals came running from the front door of that house towards the curb where I was positioned. And at that time did you make contact with those two individuals? I made contact with two individuals. Together, they came running out towards the front of the house where I was positioned,

still yelling and screaming, and they made their way to the curb where I was, at which time I told them, I believe I had a weapon drawn possibly, telling them to get down on the ground, both of them, at which time they both complied. They both went down onto all fours and then later into a sitting position. I guess you could call that proning out on the curb area there, yes. Could you tell the jury what proning out is? It's when you ask a subject to get down on the ground, you're proning them out, meaning lay down on the ground with your belly on the ground and your hands and legs also on the ground you're proning them out meaning lay down on the ground with your belly on the ground and your hands and legs also on the ground and hopefully with the face down okay did they did they in fact do that for a moment yes after that happened what did they do

uh they got into a seated type of position where i tried to ask them questions to decipher what was going on so you asked them questions is that correct yes i did what kinds of questions did you ask uh... i wanted to find out what was going on inside if someone had been shot if there was a suspect still inside the house and what did you find out

uh... at the time they were very distraught and uh and for my they were uncooperative in giving any type of answers to that. They just kept saying the same old phrases over and over. And what was the phrase? Oh my god, oh my god. And this continued for a while, approximately one or two minutes, where I continued to ask the same questions over and over, at which point they were still moving from a seated position back to all fours on the ground position, banging their fists on the ground. And I don't recall which defendant took his hand and pointed towards the house and continually kept saying, just go inside and see, just go see. That was the only type of response I got from them.

So police testified that Eric was out of his mind when they left the house, when Eric and Lyle left the house. He was running around, crying, sobbing, freaking out. David said he was like hitting his head on a tree. And Lyle was attempting to calm his brother down. Even though the brothers were the only people present at the crime scene, they were not initially treated as suspects or even persons of interest. In April of 2016, it was reported that, quote, during initial questioning by detectives, Lyle noticed that they had missed one of the expended shot shells in their careful cleanup. He could see it just under the chair of the detective was sitting on. He managed to pick it up minutes later. They shouldn't have even been inside the secure crime scene to begin with. Most basic oversights was the failure to test the boys for gunshot residue, a routine which would be done just to eliminate them from the list of possibilities, even if not seen as

suspects. After the expenditure of at least 20 shotgun shells, they would have been literally covered with powder residue to say nothing of possible blood spatter, end quote. Not only that, but if the police had bothered to check Lyle's Ford Escort, they would have found those 20 expended shells. And they would have found a ton of evidence. Probably gunshot residue would have been in that car from them getting in the car. But the shells were in the car. Well, I mean, that was something that I was thinking of when you were talking. I'm saying to myself, well, GSR is going to probably come into this. I mean, if the police are trying to rule out people and they do a GSR test on them,

that's going to, that's the jigs up right there. Maybe that's when the cookie started to crumble for them, but it does show you how- They tested Kitty. They tested Kitty for gunshot residue. They tested her hands. To see maybe if it was like a murder- To see if it was a murder-suicide, because people were saying, you know, Kitty's off the deep end. She hasn't been doing well mentally.

She's been talking about ending her own life. But I don't even see how, given her wounds, that would have even been a possibility. So it's so ridiculous that the police, I mean, it's the Beverly Hills Police Department. It's not like they probably had this kind of crime every single day. But how in the world are they not going to test Lyle and Eric, but they're going to test Kitty given her wounds? No, I mean, not testing Lyle and Eric was a mistake, but it does go to show how convincing they really were. But I will say, regardless of how convincing they were, what the hell are you doing having anyone in your crime scene? Once

they're out of the property, if you don't believe that they're responsible for it, you don't want any more contamination. The fact that he was able to go in there and get a shell casing that was left behind in the crime scene after law enforcement arrived is embarrassing to say the least for law enforcement. And I'm sure when they found out this after the fact, someone got their ass chewed out in the Homicide Division office. I can promise you that. That's a very embarrassing thing to happen. So basically, it did seem, given the actions of the police, that they were not suspicious of Eric and Lyle initially. However, Carl Fogg, which, by the way, I don't believe that's his name. I think I've been saying Carl Fogg the whole time, but I think his name's Clark Fogg. OK, Clark. Shout out, Clark. It's

Clark. He's the forensic investigator that he said he had to use an umbrella when he came in the crime scene. But in the book, Beverly Hills Confidential, it says, quote, An odd question was one of the first clues that the sons may have been involved. While Fogg was escorting Lyle Menendez to his father's office to get elimination fingerprints, the oldest son nodded his head in the direction of the den where his parents' dead bodies lay. Is that the room it happened in, he asked. As Fogg points out, Lyle knew the answer to that question. He and his brother had already discovered the bodies and called the police. It's a red flag when someone asks a question

they already know the answer to, end quote. And Clark Fogg in this book, Beverly Hills Confidential, says, quote, We actually had our suspicions that Eric and Lyle were involved shortly after we arrived at the scene. Here's why. The boys came in and told us they thought the mob was behind the murders. That seemed odd to us because so many shots had been fired. A hit doesn't require that many shotgun blasts. The two also made several trips in and out of the house that night to gather personal items, usually grieving family members don't want to go into the scene of the crime right away. End quote. So we've got Clark Fogg saying, oh yeah, we kind of suspected them that

night. But the rest of the police officers and in general, their actions that night would suggest that they didn't suspect them of anything. Or if they did, why didn't they test them for GSR? Why didn't they check their vehicle? Why did they allow them back into the crime scene? Why did they allow them back in and out of the crime scene? Right. So it just it seems odd. Now, the police did not find any shells, but they did find some wadding. For anybody who doesn't know, wadding is what's going to go inside the shell to sort of hold the pellets sort of tight so that they come out with like the velocity that you would want them to. That's right.

And it's also like a wrapper almost kind of like it's, yeah, keeps them together for the first couple seconds so they don't immediately spray when they come out. So they found some wadding, 13 pieces of wadding to be exact. And pieces of wadding were also removed from Jose and Kitty's bodies during their autopsies, which also suggests those two fatal contact wounds, one to Jose and one to Kitty. Now, even if the detectives on scene did not initially suspect Eric and Lyle, over the course of the following weeks after their parents' murders, the brothers would do many things that would turn any hunch or any slight indication that they might have been involved into full-blown suspicion. And that is where we're going to pick up next time.

Yeah, no, it's a fascinating episode that we had here. And let me just say, nothing that we're talking about tonight changes opinions for the first three episodes. As I've said already this episode, two things can be true. We can believe that Lyle and Eric were habitually, sexually, and physically abused since the age of six years old and also have opinions about this incident. So you have to compartmentalize everything and you have to look at them separately. We're not talking about motive yet. We're talking about the who, what, where, when. We're not talking about the why right now. So when it comes to the action part of this, on the surface, it does appear to be a premeditated murder that was graphic, violent, deliberate, and personal and not a very great job of either pre or post meditation as you described

it as far as trying to cover it up. Why that is, could it be just poor planning or could it be what they're describing, which is overall we thought that the police were going to show up right away. They didn't. And then we just kind of made it up as we went. But for me, the biggest takeaway for this is, because again, I'm going back to the original question when we started episode one and where we're going to end this series eventually, which is why were they found guilty and why was the sentencing so severe? And these are the types of things that will start to give you some insight as to why the judge gave the sentence that he did as far as life in prison without parole. Clearly, our opinions aside, he's looking at this and saying, I don't know if I believe what they've said about the abuse.

I can't believe anything these guys say because they're pathological liars. They lied the whole time about the murder. They haven't been truthful. They didn't come out and say, yeah, our parents were sexually and physically abusing us. We felt like we couldn't escape. We felt like they were going to kill us. And then the moment of an argument, we shot and killed them in self defense. No, they're making up all these stories. They're covering it up. They're covering up where they bought the guns. They're giving the police potential, you know, other scenarios. They're doing a lot. They're doing a lot for

two guys who were certain that they had to do this to protect themselves because they were in fear of their own lives being taken. So again, this is everything that the judge and the jury are considering when evaluating the credibility and the validity of their stories. And even though everything up to this point, they may have believed, then they start to hear this and it brings it all back into question. So I really do think this is where the tide may have turned. And I know we have two different trials that we're going back and forth on, but yeah, this was not a good episode for the Menendez brothers as far as their story and their credibility. No, I mean, it would be one thing if they were like, yeah, we did plan to kill them because we were done with it and we knew we would never be able to get away and we'd never

be able to live our lives. But the fact that they- We had to do this. Yeah. It's like you can't be honest about some things and convoluted about other things and then be expected to be viewed as this authentic, 100% genuine person. You're going to be doubted when some of your story seems fabricated in order to protect yourself and get out of a harsh sentence. Yeah. I mean, a really basic example would be if you own a convenience store

and I'm an employee and for a year things are going missing, right? And I always tell you, look at me, Stephanie, I didn't do it. And you look me in the eyes and you go, I believe you, you didn't do it. And I tell you what I think happened and all this, and you believe everything. But then you eventually install security cameras without my knowledge. And you see me on camera, take whatever that is missing. And then you ask me about it again. And the same way I've always looked at you, I look at you again and go, Stephanie, I didn't

take it. And you look at me and you believe me, but you have the camera to dispute what I'm saying. You have the video footage that shows I'm lying. So you not only have me dead to rights there, but what is that going to do? It's going to make me know that you're capable of lying to my face. It's going to make you question every other incident that you've ever asked me about or I've ever given you a story about. Even if I'm not intentionally or consciously doing that.

It's human nature. Yes. So that's what we're dealing with here. That's what we're dealing with. And we're starting to get closer to the question because it sounds like the judge didn't believe much of what the Menendez brothers had to say. And that might have contributed to the sentencing. But we will get there eventually. It was a great episode, lot to go over there. And these episodes are always fascinating for me.

And I'm looking forward to part five. Yeah, me too. And actually I think it's not going to be a good episode for the Menendez brothers next time either. I feel like that's, we kind of knew this though, right? Like we built the foundation, which none of us are fans of Jose or Kitty. None of us, even knowing what happened to them, none of us are fans of the Menendez brothers should be free right now. They shouldn't even be in prison. And we're trying to understand, I'm trying to understand why you feel that way. So I'm watching the, you know, the trial footage, I'm listening to Stephanie and I'm coming to my own opinion. And we will see when we get to the end of this, this thing where we end up final words from you. No, I'm just thinking like, when you can talk another, we could talk another hour about this one yeah when you said i'm ready for power five right now that think like they shouldn't be in

prison anymore and i'm kind of with them i'm with those people i know you are i know because i don't i don't think they would kill anybody else you know that's kind of where i'm at and i think that i think that and i think we agree the abuse is real. It happened. I see why this happened. But also you tried to escape accountability and you tried to cover it up. So that shows that you knew it was wrong. And that's kind of where I'm stuck. You know, that's where I'm stuck. So we will we will discuss this more next time. We will.

But I will just say one thing. Right. The reason you feel that way, and stop me if I'm putting words in your mouth, the reason you feel that they shouldn't be out any longer is because you believe Eric and Lyle about their habitual abuse over the years. Is that fair? Yes. Right. And I do too, by the way. I do too. But what if you're the judge and because of all this, you are now questioning that abuse if it ever happened at all? I'm not saying that's what the judge did.

I don't know him, but that could have contributed to his plenty of evidence. I agree. We're going to talk more about this evidence, too, because, you know, a lot of people in the comments. Why don't you talk about the cousins and what they said? I'm getting there, man. Let me tell the story. And we also have to look up. And when we get to the final part, what do we think? We

have two more parts. What are you thinking? Three. Okay. Three more parts. We definitely have to cover at some point California penal code as far as minimum sentencing when it comes to first degree murder, because there may have been some restrictions for the judge as well, where he was within certain parameters that he could apply. Like we're sitting here saying, judge, judge, judge, you know, was that if you're found guilty of premeditated murder, is that the minimum sentence where it's 25 to life without the possibility of parole? We have to, we have to make sure we know that because we're assuming that he had leverage, he had leeway, but maybe he was bound by the laws and the way the legislation, the way it's written. So we have to, we have to confirm that as well. And by the way, if there's any attorneys in the, uh, the chat or

in the, in the watching the video or people want to look it up, go ahead, throw it down there, have some conversations because again, the judge's hands may have been tied based on the, the sentencing and the conviction of first degree murder. So we'll get to all that lot to cover next week. Everyone stay safe out there. Have a good night. Bye.