Crime Weekly - S3 Ep210: The Menendez Brothers: Dr. Oziel (Part 6)

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

Beverly Hills, located just southwest of the Hollywood Hills, was and still is a place that the rich, famous and glamorous choose to make their homes. Known for its opulence and luxury, the homes in Beverly Hills are some of the most expensive in the United States, with some properties worth tens of millions of dollars. But behind the country clubs, cocktail hours and shopping trips, there was something much darker brewing in a high end Beverly Hills neighborhood. On August 20th, 1989, business executive Jose Menendez and his wife Kitty were brutally murdered while sitting in the living room of their sprawling Mediterranean style mansion, and what seemingly made this tragedy worse was the fact that their two son’s, Lyle and Erik, were the ones to make the gruesome discovery of their bodies. Suddenly orphaned, the Menendez brothers were initially looked at with sympathy, but soon they would be on trial for the murder of their parents. Lyle and Erik didn’t deny that they had taken their parents' lives, but according to them it was because they were scared and broken down after a lifetime of abuse. At the time, most people believed this was a fabricated excuse, and the prosecution gave greed and money as the true motive. A tragedy and trial played out for the world on television, ending with both Erik and Lyle confined at the Richard Donovan Correctional Facility in San Diego for life, with no chance of parole. Recently, newly discovered evidence and testimony has raised questions of whether Erik and Lyle were being honest about the constant state of stress and fear their parents forced them to live under. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. SimpliSafe.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 20% off any new SimpliSafe system when you sign up for Fast Protect Monitoring! 2. 3DayBlinds.com/CrimeWeekly - Buy one, get one 50% off on custom blinds, shades, shutters, and drapery! 3. MagicSpoon.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout to save $5 off your order! 4. HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get up to 30% off ALL mattress orders and two FREE pillows! 5. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and FREE shipping!

Lowe's knows you want the best for dad. This Father's Day, help him take on any project with big deals on DEWALT. Right now, get a free XR 8 amp hour battery when you buy select DEWALT tools. That's not all, get up to two free select tools when you buy a select DEWALT 20 volt max battery kit. Maximum initial battery voltage measured without a workload is 20 volts. Nominal voltage is 18. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly.

I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So we are going to dive into part six of the Menendez murders. But first, I want to say something, and that is, Derek, did you know that we've been nominated for the Clue Awards at CrimeCon again this year? I might have heard something. Crime Weekly is nominated for Content Creator of the Year. And we're so proud and we're so thankful because the people who decide who gets nominated are the viewers and the listeners. So you guys and whoever's attending CrimeCon gets to vote. And y'all kind of thought we deserved it.

And that makes us feel very good and very pleased, even though we didn't win last year. And it literally broke Derek's cold, cold heart. I like to win. I like to win. I like to win. No, it's a big honor. It's a big honor. There's a lot of people that attend this event, podcasters specifically. There's many shows there. And from what we understand, it's voted on by the people attending CrimeCon. This year, there's over 6,000 people. So to be nominated amongst the other four podcasters, it's The Prosecutors, Date with Dateline, True Crime Garage, and Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. These are big shows.

And to be in that category with those people is an honor and a privilege. And we don't take it for granted. You guys have a lot of different shows to choose from. And yet you come here every week and you support us in all of our endeavors. And we appreciate it. So thank you. And if we win or if we don't win, whoever goes to CrimeCon, meet us at the hotel bar for a drink after, because we're going to be doing that regardless. Yeah, because we lost last time and Derek had a

couple extra drinks. He really did. I really did. All right. So let's dive in because we have a little bit of a longer episode tonight. We're kind of diving into part six, but we're going to go back a little bit because remember that Eric and Lyle, a few years prior to their parents' murders, had been involved in some home invasions in the Calabasas area. And when they got caught for this, they were sent to see Beverly Hills psychologist Dr. Jerome Ozeal in the fall of 1988. Now, on Monday, October 30th, 1989, Eric Menendez called to make another appointment with Dr. Ozeal at the urging of his cousin Henry, who felt that Eric was emotionally struggling in the wake of his parents' murders. Eric told Dr. Ozeal he needed to see him as soon as possible, and they made an appointment for the following day. But Eric insisted on taking Dr. Ozeal's last available time slot so that he would be the final patient of the day. Now, keep in mind that it's not as if Eric and Dr. Ozeal haven't seen or spoken to each other since Eric went to see him in 1988.

Ozeal, since he read about Kitty and Jose's murders in the papers, had kind of reintegrated himself with the Menendez brothers. He had gone to the memorial. He had sort of been offering his support, his emotional support, and just sort of like letting Eric and Lyle know that he was there for them. So Eric obviously calls him up and he's like, hey, I need to see you. I need to talk about this. Now, at the time Eric and Lyle Menendez came into his life, Dr. Oziel pretty much had it all. He and his wife, fellow psychologist Dr. Laurel Ozeal, lived with their two young daughters in a 6,000-square-foot house in upscale Sherman Oaks, California.

Ozeal had received his doctorate in clinical psychology from Arizona State University in 1972. He'd lived in South Carolina for two years before opening a private practice in Beverly Hills, where he charged $160 an hour and had a lengthy waiting list of potential clients. He created quite a reputation for himself pretty early on. It actually was $160 for 45 minutes, which makes it worse because that's quite expensive. Dr. Ozeal specialized in phobias, and he was quoted often in the media after a 1987 earthquake where he provided therapy to traumatized children. Oziel was also allegedly a certified sex therapist and sex educator, and he'd been featured on multiple shows such as Dateline when they brought him in as a psychology expert.

So when he got the call from Eric, Dr. Oziel claimed that he felt Eric might want to get something off of his chest. The psychologist had spent some time with the brothers after the murders of their parents, and he claimed he already had suspicions that they may have been involved, although he didn't want to believe it. Eric came in and he was he was extremely agitated and extremely depressed and he began talking with me about the fact that his parents had been murdered and that he felt very isolated and very alienated and he'd lost a lot of weight. He had had some suicidal ideation and he just began disclosing a lot of things that had to do with feeling depressed and feeling lost. He talked about having some nightmares that were very vivid images of his parents being dead and having images of the scene of having seen them dead.

After telling me a lot of detail about his depression and his feelings of despair, at some point in the session he asked me to take a walk with him and to leave the actual physical office that we were in. So we did take a walk. And at some point in the session, as we were sitting in the park, we just discussed going back to the office. And we headed back to the office and we headed back to the office and right before we entered the front door of the office building in which I had my office he leaned back against as I recall a parking meter that was in front of the office door and said we did it and he said we killed our parents but I asked him you mean you killed your parents?

He said yes and from that point we went back up into the office. Well from that point on Eric began describing in pretty elaborate detail exactly what happened. And what did he say in that regard? Well he told me that it began with a... the plan to kill the parents actually began in a situation where Eric was

watching a BBC television show or movie, I'm not sure which it was, that had to do with the theme of the person in the film killing their father. And at some point in the watching of it, Eric called Lyle in the room and shared with him what the content was of the movie. And as I recall, Eric said it began with sort of a casual conversation between the two of them. They started discussing what would happen or how it would be if the person who was a dominating force and a negative force

and a very controlling person in their life wasn't there anymore and at that point it evolved into a discussion about killing the parents most particularly the father first and then the parents in describing Why Eric Menendez was upset with his father,

you had stated that they had planned to kill the father but also the mother. Did you ask Eric Menendez why he included the mother in this plan? At this point, I believe I did. And the reason that the mother was included in the plan was basically that they couldn't find a way not to include her in the plan. And they also began to see the mother as somebody who was very victimized by the father. She had apparently been suicidal before and they couldn't find a way to accomplish the end of killing the father without also killing the mother. The reason being that

the mother would have been a witness, number one, and would have reported them. Number two, they didn't believe that the mother could have survived emotionally anyway without the father. And three, they thought the mother was so miserable that it was, and this is not Eric's words, sort of like a euthanasia situation. Eric said that he entered the room first and I believe that he was shooting at his father. And then Lyle followed after him and basically, quote, Lyle finished off the job. It's not clear to me entirely who was primarily responsible for shooting the mother and who's primarily responsible for shooting the father. Eric told me that his

father said something like, no, no, and turned away and was shot as he was saying that. And the mother was, I I think shot second and I guess began to stand or something of that nature and and was shot and then fell to the ground and he relayed to me that the father as I recall it died first and the mother did not die with the first shots that were fired at her. And that what happened at that point is that both Eric and Lyle went outside to get some more cartridges and reloaded the shotguns. And went in and Lyle, I believe, finished murdering their mother.

Did Eric Menendez describe for you what his mother was doing on the floor that necessitated them having to reload the shotguns? Yes, he did. What did he say to you? He said that she was moaning and trying to crawl. Wow. What a scene, right? Your mother, regardless of what happened, crawling across the floor and you kill her, you shoot her again. We have a few things to talk about here because most of what he discussed is in line with the ballistics, is in line with what we've already talked about. So

we don't have to re-go over all that, but there was something. But there is something specifically, which is basically the way Dr. Oziel claims Eric recounted it to him is his parents were sitting down. Whereas Eric and Lyle told the police that their parents were standing up, which is why they thought they could potentially be attacked because their parents were in this like standing up prepared position. But the ballistics and Dr. Ozeal suggest that Kitty and Jose were sitting on the couch next to each other watching TV. Didn't he say right there, though, that his mom might have stood up? His mom was starting to stand up. So they're both sitting down when the boys enter the room and then they start shooting. So and obviously both are going to rise at that point. But the way Eric and Lyle had made it seem as they entered the room and then they start shooting. So, and obviously both are going to rise at that point. But the way Eric and Lyle had made it seem as they entered the room and their parents were standing,

like loading their own guns or in position to attack them. According to what he told the psychologist, his father said, no, no, like don't shoot us. Yes. But they told the police, remember from, I think it was Lyle's testimony, that neither of their parents had said anything. So I want to, I want to touch on one thing here because we talked a lot last week about motive. And I had mentioned that when it comes to the actual sentencing that comes to the actual charges, the sentencing, it could play a fact, but when it comes to the charges, the motive is just identifying who could potentially have killed the parents, right?

Once they do that, motive is still important as far as building the case, but it's not the number one thing. It's the how, it's the who, that's the main thing here. The why is a factor, but not the whole thing. having said that, something I did find interesting because I've said throughout this episode and throughout this last episode that I do think financial elements of this were a factor. And it seems to me like Eric is being very forthright, very honest with this doctor. And so I tend to believe what he's telling him because let's be honest, if Eric was trying to paint a narrative that he didn't do it, he wouldn't have told the doctor in the first place. Yes. And I think it's also interesting that he wanted to leave the office and go on a walk.

Right. Well, in case there was recordings. In case there was recordings. Yes. would contradict the idea that this was at least financial for Eric is something he said as far as I needed to do this sooner than later so I wouldn't lose the emotion that I felt in order to carry this out. Well, that emotion is not going to be tied to money. That's going to be tied to the hurt and the pain and the suffering and the anger you have towards this individual to conjure up the confidence to kill your offender. Right. So that was very interesting.

The emotion tied to the money isn't going to go away as long as that money still exists. Right. So to me, it sounds like he really was doing this because he just hated his father for what he did. And I don't know about whether he thought he was going to kill them, but overall there is some truth there. And I found that interesting and something I didn't mention last week, but after rewatching this episode that we just did, and I thought was worth pointing out, and maybe my opinion will change as we go through this episode or the next episode. But it does seem like to me that Lyle was the head of the snake here and he was really pushing this narrative. He was really the facilitator. He was really the planner. He was the motivator, right? Because Eric's kind of, and everybody said Eric was a mess afterwards and Lyle was fine. He was fine. And so he's planning all this. He's kind of conjuring up the

methodology in which they're going to carry this out. And I feel like Eric was, obviously, he played off Eric's emotion and Eric's anger for his father. But also, I think something that's important, and I was looking at something, I don't know the numbers. We were talking about finances, but it seems like Lyle spent substantially more money than Eric, like a lot more, like hundreds of thousands. And then Eric was like under like 10, 20 grand. No, no, they both bought condos and they both bought new vehicles. And Eric paid for the tennis coach at 60K a year. And Eric was flying all over going into tennis tournaments and things like that. I think they spent equally the same amount of money. But here's something that I thought of. There's uneven power dynamics between Eric and Lyle.

Clearly. power dynamics between Eric and Lyle. If what Lyle testified to is true, that he sexually abused his brother when Eric was young, in a way he would have become a figure to Eric like Jose, this almost Stockholm syndrome thing. Like this is a person who I love and who protects me, but also a person that has hurt me. And there's going to be, maybe when it comes down to Eric looking at

Jose and Lyle, he's going to have to weigh a cost benefit analysis of like, well, who's hurt me more and who continues to hurt me or who's done me the most wrong based on who I follow, right? Who am I being loyal to? Both of these men have some sort of hold over him from childhood, some sort of uneven power dynamic, this authority figure, this powerful figure in his life. And he's got to decide which one's he going to follow. And he chose Lyle. Yeah. No, it's interesting. And overall, the final take on this small piece that we just watched, very damaging for Eric and Lyle. I mean, as a jury's hearing this and the way it's being described by the psychologist, one, it's admitting that they killed their parents, which they're not denying that. So that's fine.

But the manner in which it occurred, Jose saying no, no, no, the mother moaning and crawling away as they're shooting her, optically, obviously, it does not look good. Does not look great, no matter what their motive was at the end of the day so after hearing this from eric dr ozeal said he was extremely concerned and he asked eric you know does your brother know that you're talking to me about this does your brother know that you're telling me this because this obviously concerns lyle as well as eric and eric was like no lyle does know. But he was afraid that if his brother did know what he was doing there, Lyle would kill him. So Dr. Ozeal asked for Eric's

permission to bring Lyle into the session. And this is the October 31st session, the first session where Eric confesses to Dr. Ozeal what he and Lyle did to Kitty and Jose, Dr. Ozeal's like, hey, why don't you bring Lyle in right now? Can I call him and ask him to come in? And the reason that Dr. Ozeal will later say he did this was because he was afraid of Lyle. He didn't want Eric to leave that office, go home and tell Lyle, I confess to Dr. Ozeal in session today. And then to have Lyle and Eric or Lyle influence Eric and be like, well, we have to take care of him now. We got to tie up that loose end. That's what Dr. Ozil said. So he asked Eric, could I call your brother and have him come in? And Eric said yes.

And when you had the telephone call with Lyle Menendez, what did you tell him and what did he reply? I told him words to the effect, your brother has told me everything. And his response was something like, what do you mean by everything? And I said something about needing to be circumspect and I thought he would know what I meant and he said he would be right over. At the time that you made the telephone call to Lyle Menendez, was Eric Menendez in the office with you? Yes, he was. And could you please describe his demeanor

when he came into the office where you and Eric were? He was extremely upset, threatened, threatening, menacing. He was just extremely, I think, threatened and threatening. Did he express his anger verbally by saying anything to his brother, Eric? Yes, he did. He got into a major argument with Eric about how could he have done something like this? How could he possibly have told me what they did and confessed all this to me and how could he have done it without having first told Lyle that he was going to do it? What kind of loyalty did Eric have as a brother? All right. And what was Eric's explanation for Lyle?

Well, his explanation was that he needed to confess to somebody and he needed to confess to somebody and he he needed to confess to me. And he knew that if he had told Lyle about it ahead of time that that Lyle would have said, no, absolutely not. And then Eric would have confessed Dr. Ozeal, Lyle's not happy that Eric told Dr. Ozeal what they had done, and he's mad at Eric. And then he's kind of a little bit not super happy with Dr. Ozeal himself. Now, Ozeal's notes from this session stated that Lyle was very unhappy, and the psychologist had the distinct impression that Lyle might want to kill him, and Eric might feel the same way. Therefore, Dr. Ozeal made certain arrangements to keep himself and his family safe. At least, that's what he would later claim. He had placed his notes from the October 31st session into different safety deposit boxes. And on November 2nd, Eric and Lyle met with Dr. Oziel again. And this meeting went a bit differently because Lyle was prepared now.

He wasn't blindsided. And Dr. Oziel kind of let him know, listen, I've taken precautions so that, you know, hopefully I'll stay safe. And Dr. Ozeal also, I think for his own benefit, made a suggestion to Lyle. And he was like, listen, I know you're not happy about this. I know this isn't ideal for you. However, I might be able to help you. I might be able to help you at a later time if you possibly have to go to trial for this. I said that, you know, at least it might have been some benefit because I was a therapist and might be able to help them and potentially there might be some confidentiality with respect to that. And during

this conversation, what did you tell them about what you might be able to do for them in the event that they were ever brought to trial for their parents' murders? Just basically put together some of the factors that had been going on in their family that specifically the hatred and the emotional abuse that they'd had with respect to the relationship with their father in particular that could have led to the murder taking place. At that point, did Lyle mention to you that he hadn't thought of your possession of this information in that particular way, that it could be of use? That's correct. So in a way, it might seem like Dr. Ozeal was trying to say, like, don't kill me yet because I can still be of help to you. I can do something for you. I can tell the court and the jury and the judge that you did this,

but there was these mitigating circumstances. There was these things that happened that drove you to do this. So I can put together a personality profile as a licensed psychologist, that will be in your favor. You know, even though that technically might not even work out, considering that Dr. Ozeal would have so much knowledge about Eric and Lyle. And when he talks about confidentiality, he's referring to doctor-patient privilege, which means, you know, if you can say something to your psychiatrist or your psychologist, then they can't tell other people, they shouldn't be. But in certain situations, like when somebody confesses to having committed a crime like murder, that's usually not applying. Are you kind of familiar with that? Well, from my understanding, it's not like attorney-client privilege, where if someone in

this capacity as in a therapist role is informed of a murder that took place, the patient is not protected the same way they would be with an attorney-client privilege. That's my understanding of it. But I've never had a case where- That is what I was going to ask you. Have you had a case where a mental health professional came to the police and they were like, hey, my patient confessed to killing somebody? No, never. Never. I don't know if they... It's a gray area for me because I don't know if HIPAA would apply there. So you're going to have your doctor-patient privilege, but if you confess to committing a violent crime, that goes out the window. It's not. I would imagine so. I mean, some people,

me personally, even with an attorney, I feel, again, this is the cop side of me, but if an attorney is consulting with a client and the client says, I killed this person, I need you to help me defend it. I think the attorney should have an obligation to report that, but they don't. I don't think they do. Yeah. They don't. They definitely, well, it's an interesting question. If they're already signed up with them, maybe they don't, they don't have to, but if they're just consulting with them, maybe they do. I don't know. Yeah. I would say you'd have to pay a retainer first. Yeah. There has to be, exactly. There has to be a retainer in there.

He's like, I'm not covering up your crimes for free, man. Because it's just like a priest too, right? That's what I was going to say. A lot of people confess murder to priests, not really thinking that. And they can tell, but that's not a medical situation. So that's why I'm not sure if it applies or not, but I would think it wouldn't. I would think in this situation it would not apply. What happens now is Dr. Ozeal is going to tell Eric and Lyle, hey, I've set up this

like dead man switch. You know, I've got everything hidden away in safety deposit boxes. If anything happens to me, people are going to know to look at you. And then Lyle tells him something that sort of, according to Dr. Ozeal, scared him even more. And did you tell Lyle and Eric Menendez why you had taken this precaution? Yes, I did. What was your reasoning that you told them? Because I felt in the prior session that there was a strong threat to my life.

Now, at that point, did Lyle Menendez respond to you? And I'm referring now to page 9, the last third of the page. Did Lyle Menendez respond to you after you said that you had felt threatened after October the 31st? Yes, he did. And what did he say to you about that? Well, he laughed and he said that I should have felt threatened because immediately after the session He and Eric had sat in Eric's new Jeep and the first statement that

Lyle had made to Eric when he got in to the Jeep was now how do we kill Ozil and He continued to relate that that Eric said in this course of this conversation that he wasn't up to killing anybody else right now and that if Lyle wanted to kill me that he should go ahead and kill me. He asked me if I was frightened about what he had just told me. And I said that I really didn't choose to live in fear ordinarily. It wasn't how I really chose to live my life.

And what did he respond to you when you said that you did not choose to live your life in fear? He said, neither did my father. In California, the law protecting the patient-therapist privilege is established and remains in effect even in situations where a killer confesses to his therapist that he murdered someone. So it's like under the hippo. I mean, you can't. It's a medical thing that you can't disclose.

Wow. Even in that situation, the privilege guarantees the therapist cannot go to the police. If the therapist does go to the police, he can be sued for malpractice. Now, the reason that the privilege is so strong is because the legislature recognizes that in order for psychotherapy to work, a patient must be free to reveal the most intimate details of their life. This makes a lot of sense. There is an exception to that. There is an exception to that. And we're going to talk about that in a little bit. But basically.

I really want to know what that exception is because my wheels are turning right now. But OK. There's an exception. But it's so it's so subjective that it really. And, you know, when this was being discussed in court and they were thinking about what what they could and could not admit to evidence. There was a lot of back and forth between Dr. Ozeal and the Menendez brothers and the prosecution, where the prosecution obviously wants these notes and these things included into the testimony. And the defense and Dr. Ozeal himself do not want them included. And it went back and forth a lot. So it was never an issue of, did Eric and Lyle say these things? Did they confess to killing their parents? We all knew that they had confessed to Dr. Ozeal, but it was really debated back and forth hotly. And I mean, it went to the Supreme Court and everything. Should the notes and what we're going to find out is

that there was tapes made. Should they be allowed into the trial? And eventually it was decided that they would be because of this exception. Okay. So I don't know what the exception is. I have a feeling I know what it is. And I'm going to lay out an example here. If you have someone come into your office and they say, Derek, I've killed two people and I had gratification from it. I can't help myself. I don't know if I'm going to kill again. I think it should be the responsibility of that doctor to report if there's a chance that further life could be lost.

If this person can prevent the loss of life, there should be an obligation that supersedes any medical privilege that's there as far as confidentiality. I don't know if that's what's in effect here, but you can get to that when you get to it. Now, back to what was said there, because this is another thing that I've heard a lot about, which is a reason, because I'm going through these questions. The questions for me, just to repeat, is did they kill their parents? We already have the answer to that. Why they killed their parents? Is it first degree murder? Is it manslaughter? And finally, was the sentencing fair as far as the overall? Those are the main questions that I'm looking at, four or five questions. And some of the things that I've heard is arguments for the Menendez brothers as far

as why they should be back out now and they've served their time. And I'm sure you've heard it as well, is that these individuals, Eric and Lyle, wouldn't kill anybody else. This was an isolated incident. They were not in a position where they would kill others. But here, if you're to believe Dr. Ozel, Lyle is very willing to kill more people to cover his tracks he's very willing to take this guy out and I would even go as far as saying if not for Eric he would be dead I think Eric saved his life I think I think Lyle wanted to do it and tried to potentially manipulate Eric again and Eric put his foot down and said no I'm not killing anybody else I can't do it I can't do it Eric basically said like it's I don't have it in me.

Yeah. If you want to do it, you go ahead. You're free to do it. If you want. That's my point. He was trying to, because guess what?

Who was the first one to go in and shoot the parents? Eric, Eric was. So trust me, there's something there. There's something there where Lyle's like pushing them, you know, pushing him first.

You, you take the first leap, then I'll follow. And it sounded like that he was trying to do that again here. And like I said, I think Eric saved Dr. Ozel's life. And Lyle, even the threat at the end, you know, Jose, my father wasn't in fear of death either or whatever the exact quote was. So clearly Lyle, I think it would be foolish to not at least acknowledge that whatever side of the aisle you're on,

that when a judge is considering, are these individuals a danger to society? Well, first you have to decide whether or not you believe the doctor. And then secondly, if you do, then you would probably feel a certain way. And if you didn't, then you'd probably feel another way.

But again, all factors- Well, we do believe him because this is on tape pretty much. And I mean. Yeah, it sounds pretty convincing and it sounds pretty detailed to be a flat out lie. And it wouldn't really be much of a reason for that element to it. Now he'd be more focusing on the murders themselves, not necessarily this, but to bring it back to sentencing, when you have one of these individuals basically threatening to take out a witness just because they know too much, Dr. Ozel never did nothing to Lyle. He never abused Lyle, and yet he's willing to kill him just as easily as he killed the parents. So that's concerning when you're thinking about rehabilitation and how much time should this person be in prison for the crime they committed? Can they be rehabilitated? Are they a danger to the people out there in our society? Those are questions that are left in the hands of a judge when determining a sentence, and all these things are factors in that. Lyle driving the bus with Eric on it, but pretty much having Eric take the lead is spot on because

I think that Lyle probably doesn't and didn't trust anybody. And his brother was the closest person that he thought he could trust because it was like they had a common enemy. You know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but also kind of like a two can keep a secret if one of them is dead sort of thing where Lyle wasn't going to do anything unless not that Eric was with him, but that Eric was equally implicated. So Eric had equal, you know, something to lose, but it didn't even work because he went, he went and talked Dr. Oziel about it. Have you ever seen the movie training day? Of course. Denzel Washington. Not everybody has. Okay. So if you haven't seen that movie, Day? Of course. Denzel Washington, you know. Not everybody has.

Okay. So if you haven't seen that movie, just a quick version here. Obviously, Denzel Washington's the leader of the narcotics group. They're a corrupt group. They're stealing money from drug dealers. So in this particular scene, and I'm sure this has happened in reality. I know it has. They robbed this drug dealer, this prominent drug dealer for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And Ethan Hawke, who plays like the rookie cop, who's the good guy, they're passing out the money that they just killed this guy. They're going to take his money. And Ethan Hawke is refusing to take the money. And the other guys are like, we got to kill him too then. You got to take the money. You got to get your hands dirty. To me, this reminds me of that. This whole situation where Lyle was like, I need to tie him up in this. So I have him locked in where he doesn't wrap me out later. And because I know he's maybe not completely sure about doing this right now and I've convinced him to, and I'm going to make sure he pulls the trigger first, literally so that there's no backing out. And that's, and that's what happened. And it sounds

like that's what would have happened here as well. I agree. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. So Dr. Ozeal would later testify that he brings Lyle in on October 31st, brings him in again on November 2nd, and he's telling Lyle, listen, you know, we should have regular therapy sessions. We should work through the stuff. You're going to need to work through the stuff. Clearly, your brother does. You know, you've got stuff inside of you, too. We all handle things differently. And Lyle told him, I've got nothing to work on because the people who caused my problems

are gone. Dr. Ozeal asked Lyle if he felt guilty, if he felt as guilty as his brother seemed to feel. And did he feel bad about using money from his parents' estate? And Lyle laughed and he said he didn't feel bad, but the murders had not been committed for the money. Now, this is very important because no matter who they're talking to, no matter what they're saying, no matter what defense they're using,

Lyle and Eric have remained consistent. They did not kill their parents for the money. And they're talking to Dr. Ozeal, not thinking that what they're saying is ever going to be heard. Yeah, see the light of day. Yeah. And I mean, obviously, Lyle feels free and safe enough to basically threaten this man's life more than once and to sort of toy with him like a cat and mouse thing and scare him. So why wouldn't he just be like, yeah, actually, you know, even to say something like,

you know, we killed them because they were assholes, but the money was a good benefit. No, he makes it very clear. Money didn't hurt, you know, some type of passive comment. Yeah. Makes it very clear it was not about the money. And I think that's kind of like, it's bringing us to the place where I think we can both admit money, although it may have played a factor, was not their main motive. I'm with you. We're in episode six here and I'm definitely leaning

that way, especially with what I just said about Eric a few minutes ago, that he needed to build, have that emotion to do this. And even for Lyle, right? It's two different things here. Would Lyle kill again? And why did Lyle kill the first time? It's two different things. I think Lyle may have killed again. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I can answer yes to that question, but also agree with you that it is starting to appear more that this was based on the habitual abuse that they experienced and what they thought could happen going forward. And like you said, the money was probably an added benefit, but I want to reiterate to everyone, motive is not a requirement for first degree murder, right? It could be for anything. It could be because Jose looked at him wrong. It could be even though the crime that was committed

against them was heinous. And Stephanie and I can probably tell you that we were not crying any tears for Jose, but still, if we're going objectively based off the law, the motive is not, it's irrelevant as far as why they killed them. If they did it, they did it. And it's the matter of how they did it that really matters. Was it premeditated? Was it not? Was it self-defense? Was it not? Now, where the why could come into play is the sentencing as a human being, like a judge, is evaluating everything. That's where it can have a factor. So if we're going along that vein, then yes, if you're someone who says they did their time, they should have had a chance to get out because this was not financially motivated. This was for a specific reason where a lot of people, given the same situation, if they had experienced and endured what they had went through, they might do the same thing.

If that's the argument you're making, it's a pretty good argument. It's a pretty good argument. Yeah, honestly. And Lyle, you know, like Derek just said, too, we feel bad for Eric and Lyle. No doubt. No doubt. We don't discount what happened to them. We don't try to minimize it at all. But I do get the impression that Eric and Lyle were both a little bit spoiled, a little bit entitled, and a little bit lazy as far as achieving things in life.

So Lyle strikes me as the kind of person who would get away with the murder of his parents, benefit from it in whatever way, and kind of take that with him into life and be like, wow, it's actually not that hard to kill somebody. And maybe down the road when he faces another roadblock, he chooses that same solution. Yeah, these are factors that a judge has to consider because he would be or she would be responsible for that. Judges are responsible for nothing, don't you know? They make bad calls all day long, all day, every day. And it never comes back to bite them. We say it all the time. And I know that it's not going to appease everyone. And I'm glad you said it again. We've said it probably four or five times throughout the

series. We definitely believe the Menendez brothers. We feel bad for them. I have said, I think in one of the episodes that if it were my daughter, one of my daughters, I'd be in prison. No doubt about it. If it was Jose, I don't mind saying that. I'm not recommending that you do that, but I'm saying that's what I would do. And I feel like I know Stephanie enough to say that she would probably be as right in the cell next to me. So there are two different things though. That's what we're saying here. It's they're making the defense that this was for that reason and solely for that reason and that they are no longer a danger to society now that those individuals are gone. That's what we're trying to figure out here because I think most people agree that this was a premeditated murder, although there are people in the comments who say no.

But I think you really have to look at the requirements for the different statutes and you will see that this pretty much lines up exactly with first degree murder, not manslaughter. Yeah, it's premeditated. It's premeditated. But that said, we have a lot more to go. We're going to get there. But we feel for them, but we still have to look at what's in front of us and listen to what we're hearing. So Dr. Ozeal said, quote, the boys acknowledged that they didn't think they would ever commit any more crimes, but they had always known that they hated their father

and they felt they had to kill him due to the fact that he totally controlled them, made them feel inadequate and inferior, and dominate them, end quote. Allegedly, they had killed Kitty because she had been so thoroughly abused by Jose, she'd reached the point of no return, and they basically put her out of her misery. They sort of described it in the way of being a mercy kill. She was so wrapped up in Jose. She was so depressed, so beaten down, so completely diminished that she wouldn't be able to live with him or without him. And she'd probably turn on her sons because she was so under Jose's thumb. And Eric and Lyle both expressed feeling badly about what had happened to Kitty. And it was also said that Eric and Lyle

had never used the word love when talking about their father. It was more that they admired him and they were in awe of him. But there were no warm feelings of love for Jose, even though the brothers did seem to have some for Kitty, although they weren't, you know, an intense feeling of love. Then, as Dr. Ozeal was describing different patterns of killing, something was said that chilled him to his very core. I described one pattern of killing that related to certain characteristics that had to do with being premeditated, involving sort of a plan, a job that needed to be accomplished, where the killing was in fact something that was like a job that had to get done and get accomplished. That feelings were, there really weren't many feelings about it,

or whatever feelings that there were really didn't get in the way of it. Did you contrast that kind of killing with another kind? Yes, I did. And what was the other kind that you described to the two defendants? The other kind of killing that I described was a killing, if you will, out of intense emotion, something that occurred, a crime of passion type of killing, where there wasn't any premeditation, and it wasn't a logical, rational plan to murder someone. It was just coming in, for example, to find something very

emotional happening in one's life and grabbing the nearest knife or pistol or something and in the heat of the moment shooting someone. So a lack of premeditation and something arising primarily out of emotion, not out of thought and rationale and plan and logic. Did each of the two defendants acknowledge to you, after you described these two kinds of killings, which one was more applicable to their situation? MR. Yes, they did. MS. And as to the defendants, what did they indicate? MR. They indicated that the former pattern, the logical, rational, thought-out pattern, was in fact the one that

characterized their acts in relationship to the murder. So you don't hear Dr. Oziel say it in this clip, but in the interview with Eric and Lyle, he had said to Eric and Lyle, you know, this first step of killing, this premeditated killing where there's little to no feeling, and if there is feeling, you don't let it get in the way. That's more associated with like what a sociopath would do, as opposed to this crime of passion, where you walk in on something emotional, you just grab the first, you know, knife or heavy thing available and you act out in the moment because of this emotion. And Eric and Lyle both said, oh, we we kind of connect with the first type more. We thought this out.

Yeah, pretty simple, right? And I didn't know this was the next clip, but we were just talking about this. So what a segue, right? Right into it. But yeah, I mean, there's the two types of killings. Pretty simple. If you were a husband or a wife and you walk in on your husband or wife cheating on you and you grab a knife and you stab your husband or wife because they were cheating on you, that's a crime of passion.

It's in the moment. If you plan it out, whether it's for 20 minutes or 20 days, if it was thought out before carrying it out with some level of logic and planning, then it is without a doubt, first degree murder. It's premeditated murder. And so this is going to be a hard charge to beat because then if you're to believe the doctor, which you're saying there's tapes of, they're admitting unbeknownst to them that they planned this out well in advance. Correct. And in his notes from that session, Dr. Ozeal wrote, quote, It struck me throughout the session that Lyle was almost a complete sociopath with no evidence of remorse

whatsoever that I could detect and that he had even considered killing Eric after Eric had confessed the murders to me. Eric seemed to be much less capable of committing such an act without Lyle and was clearly overwrought by the scope of what he had done to his own parents. End quote. Remember when you said when we were watching all the testimony of Eric and Lyle in the first few episodes and you were like, oh, Lyle seems way nicer and way more like relatable and Eric is, you know, more cold and kind of like it seems that it was the opposite. So it could be that Lyle does have a little bit of a sociopathic tendency because he's got that superficial charm and he's able to really make

you feel for him in the way that you did and so many others have. I mean, not even feel for him, just more believable, but that goes two ways, right? He comes off as a better speaker, more polished, more calculated, more measured, more articulate. What that tells me, he's the leader. He's the leader and Eric's the follower. He's the younger brother. He's just following his big brother, probably looks up to him. And Lyle is definitely more polished and more refined than Eric in that way. And I would even argue cooler under pressure, right? He's able to play up that role, that narrative. He's the one who made the call to 911. He's the face of this all. He's the one. He's the spokesperson. And there's a reason for that. He doesn't trust

his brother to do that role. And so he's- Yeah, he's giving the eulogy. He's speaking at the memorial service. He's the puppeteer. So what it tells me with my observations is that he's good at what he does. He's good at what he does. their parents a few times during these sessions as the perfect crime. And Lyle was worried that Oziel was going to spill the beans. Once again, in his notes following that November 2nd session, Dr. Oziel said, quote, I did not remain convinced that I was in anything but danger with respect to these two boys in terms of their plans for me. I only ended the session feeling that they weren't going to necessarily kill me at any time in the near future, although I did not trust this conclusion strongly. End quote. See, even Dr. O'Neill is referring to them as boys. And we talked about that, I don't know, last episode or the one before where I thought it was very strange that the lawyers on both sides and witnesses, they would keep calling Eric and Lyle boys when they're 18 and 21 at that point.

Yeah. I think a lot of people, including myself sometimes, you still see them as those little boys that were abused for all those years and you can't help but feel bad for them. You can see it in them. Yeah. You can see the maturity. It's just they do. They're grown men.

They're young men, but they're grown men. But whenever you listen to them, you just can't help but go back to their childhood. Even just their faces, there's this very childlike brokenness in their eyes that really does kind of hit you. And you know, these kids didn't emotionally develop properly. You know, they didn't mentally develop properly. So as I had mentioned before, Dr. Jerome Ozeal had a loving wife, two healthy and happy children, a beautiful home, and a thriving career. But he also had a girlfriend on the side, and their romance didn't start in the most professional way. Did you, in fact, first meet Dr. Ozeal in June of 1989? June 28th of 1989. And could you just very briefly describe the circumstances in which

you met Dr. Ozeo? I had some tapes from a seminar which I had listened to and I was interested in taking some of those seminars. And on the end of the tape, it said to call the Phobia Institute of Beverly Hills and call for information. The phone number I received was the phone number for Dr. Ozeal. And I left a message and he called me back and talked me out of the seminars and into the idea that I needed one-on-one therapy. And after that first contact with him, was your initial relationship with him a business relationship? No, not at all. What was the standard nature of the relationship that you had with him in the very beginning? It would flip-flop between therapy

and his idea that he was my ideal person. Ideal person romantically? Romantically. All right, and when did that patient-therapist relationship begin? Technically, I guess it would be that it started in June of 89. And how long did it continue?

Up to the day that I escaped. Which was what date? June. It was Sunday, March, I think, 4th. When you say escaped, are you referring to leaving Dr. Ozeal's house? Yes. Because for a certain period of time, you lived in Dr. Ozeal's house? Yes. a certain period of time you lived in dr ozeal's house yes and when did you first begin to live in his house and when did you leave he took me there in mid december mid to late december around the 19th the exact date i'm not positive without i'm not positive of the exact date, but mid to late December of 89 until I think it was March 4th of 90. So who you heard speaking, that was Judelon Smith. And to describe who she was and who she was to Dr. Ozel, I will read from a March 1991 article found in Playboy magazine, quote, Judelon Smith was born in Seattle, but grew up in Yokohama, Japan,

where she claimed to have made a fortune as a teenage soap opera star. She also claimed to have been abused by her mother, who she said once held her by her hair from a second-story balcony. Her first husband died young after a plane crash, leaving her, she said, a $475 a month pension. Her next romance placed her on the L.A. fast track. In 1974, she moved in with Kenneth Moss, a one-time Wall Street whiz kid who claimed to have made $1.5 million in the stock market before opting for early retirement at 26. Moss' retirement was spent throwing lavish parties

for his show business friends in L.A., and he was indicted for murder when, at one of those parties, his stash of cocaine turned out to be heroin, killing Robbie McIntosh, leader of the rock group Average White Band. Moss went to jail after pleading guilty to involuntary manslaughter. His attorney has said that Smith may have been a grand jury witness against him. She later told a friend she hated being in the middle of a high-profile murder case where TV news crews chased her down the street. Smith then married Mark Roy, the owner of L.A.'s premier massage parlor, Circus Maximus.

She joked with friends that she wore an off-white dress at her wedding because she was saving white for the right man. Still, she thought highly enough of Roy to give him as a birthday present a sexual fantasy tape she had recorded, complete with color slides of her masturbating. Roy had agreed to an open marriage but became angry when faced with her actual infidelities. An acrimonious divorce followed after three years. Smith, according to Roy, enlisted another of his ex-wives in a campaign to get him in trouble with the IRS. They even searched through his garbage for evidence. She's an emotional killer, he says now. She lives in a fantasy world, out of touch with reality. Her life is full of deceit. Another ex-boyfriend of Smith's tells a similar tale of vengeance, though not for attribution. After a breakup, Smith became furious, he said, and

sought revenge by calling friends and business associates with outrageous stories and accusations. One woman who knew her says Smith appeared to be a regular person until she broke up with a boyfriend. Then she started talking about suicide, saying she was desperate to find somebody and settle down before she turned 40. Another of her friends claim that she often exaggerated her modest business accomplishments. It was a big deal when her picture was in the paper holding one of her favorite dolls at a Barbie doll collector's convention. Smith was a woman who yearned to be a celebrity but lacked discernible talent to celebrate. Her previous pattern of obsessive love, followed by violent outbursts and vengeful

denunciations, played itself out with Ozeal too, end quote. So it's complicated because both Judelon Smith and Dr. Jerome Ozeal tell the same story, but about the other person. So Judelon is going to say that she was manipulated, brainwashed. And it does kind of seem like that. He kind of brought her in. He was like, oh, you need therapy, but I'm not going to give you therapy that you pay for. I'm going to go to your house and give you therapy. I'm going to spend hours with you on the phone. I'm going to tell you I'm the perfect person for you. And there's plenty of evidence that he did this. And he says that she's crazy. She became obsessed with him. She wouldn't leave him alone, etc. But you did hear correctly. Judelon Smith lived in Dr. Ozell's house with him and his wife for several months. And I'm going to get into more details about that in a minute.

But Judelon first met Dr. Jerome Ozzeal in June of 1989. Within no time, the two were lovers. And by September of 1989, Judelon was writing to Dr. Ozeal, quote, My heart is with you. I function when we are apart, but I live when we are together, end quote. On March 6th, 1999, Judelon Smith would sit down with lead detective Les Oller for six hours. She claimed and described in detail about overhearing Eric and Lyle confessing to the murders of their parents in Dr. Ozeal's office. Not only had she heard this, Judelon claimed, but she said there were tapes in Ozeal's safe and she knew where the guns that had been used to kill Jose and Kitty had been purchased. And at this time, the cops hadn't figured that out yet.

They'd been looking at gun stores around Beverly Hills. They had some indication that Eric and Lyle had gone into a gun store in Beverly Hills and talked to somebody. But there was a waiting. They had to wait 48 hours and they had to do a background check and all of that, which is why they ended up driving to San Diego. The police most likely would not have tracked down and found where Eric and Lyle purchased these guns if Judilon Smith had not told them. The day after they talked to Judilon, the Beverly Hills Police Department opened Dr. Ozeal's safe deposit box and found several audio tapes along with files, documents, and diaries. And this is going to be eventually the catalyst that gets Eric and Lyle arrested. Question, was she brought in as a

witness for the defense or prosecution? Because I'm a little confused. She was brought in as a witness for the defense. Okay. That makes sense because she's obviously, Ozeal's a key witness for prosecution. She's coming in to discredit his credibility. Ozeal really, I don't know if he was a witness for the prosecution. He was an unwilling witness. Okay. If anything, yes.

Either way, defense brought her in to discredit Ozeal's testimony to say, look, jury, considered the source when you're listening to this information. But that all being said, what she's saying does have some credibility if it's true that her testimony or her statement to police confidentially initially led to the guns. Clearly, she didn't guess that right. Exactly.

So if she told police, hey, I overheard them saying that the guns were at this place in San Diego, they go to the place in San Diego and the gun's there, that right. Exactly. So she told police, hey, I overheard them saying that the guns were at this place in San Diego. They go to the place in San Diego and the guns there. That gives her a lot of credibility as far as what she heard, what she saw. And then she also said there's tapes in the safe. And sure enough, there's tapes in the safe. So very interesting. And we know and I know where they bought the guns.

And I know where they bought the guns. So, yeah, she's got some things there that were corroborated to show that she does know a little bit about what she's talking about. The question for me, as we go into this next break, is because Ozeal didn't willingly come forward, then therefore he's not violating that patient confidentiality. If police get a search warrant and find said tapes through a witness, not the doctor, right? A different witness who doesn't have that same accountability to the client to not say anything. Well, then technically that could be a way of getting around the confidentiality clause. But let's do on that one for a minute. Let's take a break. We'll be right back. I want to refer to something you said right before break, which is that Dr. Ozeal did not break privilege because he wasn't the one who went to the cops. This is true. But what the lawyer in this case, which I believe she was Eric's lawyer, was Leslie Abramson, she wanted to discredit Dr. Ozeal in every way possible. And it turns out it wasn't that hard to do. But basically, she wanted to

show that this is not a person that can be trusted. This is a person that takes advantage of his female clients. This is a person who uses people to his own benefit. He has multiple sketchy companies that he's starting. He's talking about starting companies and businesses with Judalon. He's got multiple women on the side. They're all writing him these sappy romance letters on the regular.

And Leslie Abramson is like, you're clearly some kind of sort of cult leader here, like sex cult leader. And you just collect these women and psychologically brainwash them into becoming so attached and dependent on you to stroke your ego. And you're not really somebody that can be trusted. And you did record the Menendez brothers in their sessions. And yes, one of the sessions, one of the last sessions was recorded with Eric and Lyle's permission, as well as the permission and knowledge of their attorney at the time.

Which I don't understand. But either way, not only was Dr. Oziel doing that stuff in his sessions, but he was talking to Judelon and his wife, Laurel, and some other colleagues about what Eric and Lyle were seeing in these sessions. So in that way, the defense was trying to show that he had broken privilege, that he just wasn't a moral mental health provider who followed the rules, because it wasn't just Eric and Lyle that he talked about with Judilon. It was many of his patients. That's fair. I mean, how do you argue with that? So Judalon would testify that on October 31st, Dr. Ozeal had asked her to be present at the session with Eric because he was afraid. He was afraid that Eric and Lyle had killed their parents. It was going to be confessed to him and then he would be in danger. So even before Eric came in and even before Lyle came in,

Dr. Ozeo called you on. He's like, oh, Eric wants an appointment with me. I know he's going to confess to killing his parents and then my life's going to be in danger. Why would you just not take the meeting then? Why would you be like, oh, Eric, I'm sorry. You know, I'm really slammed. Find someone else. Like if you literally,

before that man walked into your office, thought he was going to confess to killing his parents and I'm going to be in danger. Why wouldn't you just make up an excuse and say you couldn't see him and refer him to somebody else? And the whole point is Leslie Abramson and even Judelon Smith are going to try to paint this picture that Dr. O'Ziel had nefarious motives. He had nefarious intentions. He had underlying reasons for why he wanted Eric and Lyle to confess to him so that he could in turn control them and then use them as his puppets, as he did with Judelon and other female patients. Before you went to Arizona, did you have some information that Dr. Oziel was picked up his messages from his wife Laurel and

learned that Eric Menendez wanted to talk with him. And so from my house he called Eric and spoke with him and set up an appointment. And did he indicate to you what the nature of the meeting was going to be or anything at all about Eric Hernandez? Yes. What did he indicate to you? When he hung up the phone, he said that he hoped he wasn't gonna hear what he thought he was gonna hear.

And when I asked him what he thought he was going to hear, he said that they killed his parents. Was it unusual for Dr. Ozeal to be talking to you about his other patients? No. And he asked me to go and be there for him, that this was like the one last thing I could do and that if I did this that it would show that that all this work that he had put in on me wasn't for for nothing that if I you know did this that it would show that I had like learned something and when you say this, what was he asking you to do in relation to the conversation he had with Eric Menendez? He was asking me to come

and be there in case something happened to him so I could call the police or call an ambulance. Did you in fact go to his office on October 31st? Yes, I did. What time did you arrive there? A little after 5. Now Dr. Oziel testified he didn't recall you being there on the 31st and he also said that after he had the session with Eric Menendez and Lyle Menendez, he drove to your house and told you about the sessions for the first time.

Was that true testimony? It's an outright lie. Ozeal came and stuck his head out the door and said that it was as he suspected. Why did you take that to mean? I took that to mean that they had killed their parents. I believe he went back and then Lyle came out and then Oziel was following Lyle and they went to the elevator. What was the conversation you heard at that time? Lyle said something about well i can understand you know why i can understand

that he needed to or something and and then ozeal was saying well you you really should stay and come back in my office and you have to understand about confidentiality or something and and lyle was just wanting to leave and go tend to his brother did dr ozeal say anything about being threatened that he felt threatened his perceptions were that he was threatened at the elevator yes he said to lyle he said are you threatening me is that a a direct threat? And that was said in response to what? What did Lyle Menendez said? Good luck. He came back and he locked the door to the waiting room. Then he locked the door between the waiting room and the hall. Then we went into his office and he locked the door to his office.

Then he said that they had killed their parents and that they had threatened him and everyone connected to him and that it wasn't safe and that he needed to have Laurel get out of the house and get the kids out of the house. And then he started making phone calls. And did he say that you were in danger? Yes. Did he say why you were in danger? Just because I was there and because I was connected to him. And were you afraid as a result of what he told you?

Yes. Did you think at that point that you needed Dr. Ozeal in any way because of the danger that he was making you feel? Yes. That he could maybe help you out of the danger you felt? I felt he was my only chance. All right. So that night, according to Judilon, she and Ozil went to his house to pick up a suitcase so they could stay at Judelon's place because allegedly Dr. Ozil didn't feel safe at home. Dr. Ozil also called his wife, Laurel, and told her to take the children and leave. He said she should tell the kids that there was a gas leak and they

had to stay at a hotel. And he also told her, I'm going to stay someplace else tonight. Pack me a suitcase. So like I said, the suitcase was already packed on the front porch because Dr. Ozeal had his wife pack it for him so he could stay with his girlfriend that night. Now, Laura was well aware of Judelon Smith's existence, as she would later say. She said she thought that her husband's girlfriend was a passing fancy and it would kind of just move on as it had in the past. Now, Judilon would claim that the relationship between herself and Dr. Ozeal had been manufactured and manipulated by him.

She said she had tried to get out multiple times. In fact, they'd taken a trip to Arizona together right before Dr. Ozeal's session with Eric and Lyle. And before they took the trip, she had told him, it's over, I don't wanna do this anymore. And he showed up to her workplace and made this big dramatic thing and was like, oh, please still go on the trip with me, and we can work on things and we can talk at least.

If you want to be done, you can be done. And during the trip, he had sort of convinced her that they should be together, but she was still pushing back, and he maybe even used the perceived threat of both of them being in danger by their connection to the Menendez brothers to align Judilon with him, to make Judilon feel that she needed Dr. Ozil to keep her safe. Now, Judilon alleges that Dr. Ozil beat her, drugged her, and raped her, and she filed a lawsuit stating this. In a countersuit, Ozeal claimed that Judilon was a disturbed woman who came into the lives of he and his wife and held

them hostage with threats that included self-harm. To read from that Playboy article again, quote, according to Ozeal, his relationship with Smith became intense when she started camping out in his waiting room by the hour in order to see him. When Smith describes their relationship as timeless love that occurs and reoccurs from lifetime to lifetime, Ozil speaks in milder terms, quote, over time, our business relationship evolved to include a social relationship, end quote. He also admits, quote, I was involved in an emotional entanglement. Ozil claims that in mid-October, after he tried to extricate himself from this entanglement, he walked into Smith's apartment and found her groggy from a suicide attempt. A note on the table said she couldn't live without him. The couple's affair continued. It was after her suicide attempt, she saysilon to sit in the waiting room and listen to that session with Eric or any session. She had just done so because she was very attached to him and she just kind of developed a habit of sitting in his waiting room and waiting for him to be done with sessions. Ozeal would also say that he was genuinely interested in helping Eric and Lyle, even though he was afraid of them.

And he decided that his best bet was to be a friend and ally to them. But Judilon claims that Dr. Ozeal had darker and more nefarious motives. that Kitty and Jose Menendez were dead, then he told me that the Menendez's were his best friends. The Menendez's parents were his best friends? Yes, that they were his best friends, and that the reason why he was going to calling the boys and going to the memorial service and all these things was because jose was his best friend and if this had happened to him that jose would do this for his daughters

and did he mention anything about money or about how much the estate was worth or how much the boys were worth or anything along those yes when did he first mention that topic? Shortly after the parents had the memorial service. And what did he say about that? He said that they were worth $14 million and that these boys were going to inherit $14 million and that they were going to need his guidance and his assistance to invest the money properly and to find the right accountants and the right lawyers. Did he indicate how he was going to be of assistance other than providing

lawyers? Did he have any specific business proposals in mind that he discussed with you? He said that if we needed any money to start anything that he could persuade them to put up the money. If you and Dr. Oziel needed any money to start any of your joint business ventures, he would persuade them to put up the money? Correct. From the night of October 31st up to this point, he kept making a big issue about needing to get control of them. Did he say how he wanted to get control of them? Well, he wanted me to bug his office so that he could tape record them without them knowing it but i told him that's not that's not what i know how to do and when did he first make that suggestion to you that he wanted you to bug his office the night of october 31st did you know how to bug an office no did you said something about control

he wanted to get control when did he make that statement? He made that statement many times. I don't recall if he was giving a reason. He was just saying that he had to get control of them. And on November 2nd, did he indicate to you anything about tape recording the session on that date? He wasn't going to, I mean, he was going to try, he was going to start working on them to make them agreeable to making a tape. So I do want to talk about a theory I have about why Dr. Ozil actually wanted to get close to the Menendez brothers. But let's take our last break first and we'll be right back. My opinion, you look at something, someone like Dr. Ozil, and he's sort of got this reputation in Beverly Hills for being the therapist to see.

He's been on TV shows. He's in the newspaper. He's sort of looked at as an expert on a bunch of different things. His reasoning for wanting to get close to Eric and Lyle was not even so much about the money that he thought they were going to inherit and helping them invest it and maybe even getting some for potential business ventures. But I guarantee you this guy thought, like, I can write a book about this one day. Like, if they get arrested, if they go to trial, I can write a book or I can go on all of these shows I'll be highly sought after. It's only going to help my career. Listen, this isn't only for psychologists or psychiatrists or lawyers. It's for everybody in the field. It's not every single person, but from detectives to lawyers to forensic experts, ballistic experts, they all want to be tied to these cases because it puts

them on the map and it ultimately results in dollars. I've talked about it before, but with these experts that travel the country for these court cases, they can make hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars a year, just testifying as an expert witness. So if they can establish themselves with one of these more high profile cases, and a lot of the ways you do that is not only through experience, but a book or something like that, you can make a whole different career out of it. Just going around, weighing in on your opinions of specific high profile cases, which increased notoriety, which ultimately would increase prices at his practice when he did charge patients to come see him. So overall, it's not just him.

This is something where even on a much lower scale, I've worked cases where, not even my case, but just a case where I've seen one of my colleagues work a case that we knew behind closed doors was going to be a good positive outcome and maybe get some media attention. And there were always like certain guys who somehow found a way to be part of that case. You know what I mean? They just, all of a sudden they had something that they could contribute to it, whether it was they knew a witness or something, or they processed the scene because they wanted to be in the, in the article or the newspaper where they were standing up there at the press conference, being able to take a claim for being responsible for solving this case when nobody had seen them the entire time. So absolutely true what you're saying. I can tell you firsthand, I've seen it happen.

And again, at these much higher scales, we've talked about it before where it's like the battle of the experts, right? Because they get up there and there's hundreds of thousands of dollars being thrown around to have these people testify. So I would think that what you're saying without having proof of it based on this testimony is very, very plausible. But in my opinion, and this is solely my opinion, Dr. O'Ziel is kind of a sketchy character to begin with, because it wasn't just as in he was treating them and they made this unprompted confession. He had treated them prior. He made sure to make contact with them in the days after their parents were murdered, stating that he suspected they could have been responsible. He went to the memorial service, and I have no doubt that during any of these meetings, he went up to Eric and Lyle or both and was like, hey, you know, if you need someone to talk to, if you want to get something off your chest, just call me, make an appointment. I'll get you in when I know you need something. So he's sort of setting it up. He suspects they have something to do with it. He wants to get them into his office so that they can confess. He wants to get it tape recorded. And he says it's for his protection. But if it was for his protection, he never would have opened that door and invited them to come to begin

with. And he would have made an excuse about not wanting to see them if he truly was worried about them killing him. So it really does seem a little bit more calculated and a little bit more, you know, just nefarious and sketchy when you think about it. Because it's not just he's a psychologist and they walk into his office and like, oh, by the way, we killed our parents. And he's like, oh man, right time, right place kind of thing. He's sort of premeditated this and set it up. Well, not only do you have a big chink in the armor of his, of his credibility, but also you have a potential defense down the road. And you kind of alluded to this, but I'll even hammer it home more. When we're talking about sentencing down the road,

and I had mentioned earlier the idea that these conversations would indicate that maybe Lyle, if anybody, was capable of killing others down the road. Well, the defense could say here, listen, don't listen to what Azil's saying. This doesn't happen the way he's portraying it. He's trying to embellish the story. If he was truly in fear that Lyle was capable, this is an expert in this field. If he really believed that Lyle was capable of killing him, he wouldn't be chasing after him. He wouldn't be trying to blackmail him in a passive way. He wouldn't do chasing after him. He wouldn't be trying to blackmail him in a passive way. He wouldn't do all this if he really thought he was sitting in front of a killer. So even if

it's not going to get them off on the charges, what the defense could be doing here is saying, listen, these kids did what they did. We get that. But don't believe this narrative that these are just these hardened cold killers out there that will just take out anybody in their path. These are good kids who went through a traumatic situation. And you had this guy who's he's an opportunist. And they confessed to somebody they thought they could trust. Yeah, he's an opportunist. He proved like everyone, every other adult figure in their life that they couldn't trust him, that he was there to use them to whatever ends he felt was necessary. This is the angles. We're giving you both sides of it. This is how it's going to be portrayed.

If you're on the prosecution side, you're going to say here, it shows the premeditation. Here, it shows that these guys are cold-blooded killers. Defense will spin it another way with what they're getting out of everybody now as far as how these conversations occurred. Well, Judelon Smith, we're not done with her because she may not have known how to bug an office, but she did know how to record phone calls because she recorded multiple phone calls between herself and her psychologist boyfriend. Now, she would later claim during the trial she hadn't intentionally recorded these calls. She said her answering machine just randomly recorded calls sometimes. But in one call specifically that stuck out to me, that kind of shows how sketchy Dr. Oziel is. He's telling Judilon that his wife, Laurel, didn't seem to think the Menendez brothers were a threat

any longer. And so he suggested that Judilon help keep Laurel in fear. He said, quote, I think you should call her up and you should use one of your disguise voices and say, hello, Laurel, this is Eric. You're in trouble. I'm going to kill you, end quote. And it kind of does show you that this is a person who doesn't mind playing mind games because we're talking about his own wife, the mother of his children. And she's like, you know, I don't really know if I believe you about the Menendez brothers being this huge threat and they're going to come kill us. It's been weeks and nothing's happened. And Ozil's like, I can't have that because having Laurel afraid and staying in a different place with the kids, it allows me to just be with Judalon whenever I want and to keep Judalon on

the hook. And it's almost like he's using the Menendez brothers for multiple different things that will benefit his life. Yeah. And remember the narrative he's painting too, right? I'm not afraid of anyone. It's very manipulative. Yes. So on December 9th, 1989, Dr. Jerome Oziel claimed that he received a call from Judalon's father telling him that she had fainted. When he arrived, Judalon seemed disoriented and out of it, so he took her to the hospital. Ozeal said, quote, I took Judilon there not as a psychologist, but as a friend, helping someone who could have been medically ill. While she was there, she talked about depression, which a doctor determined made her possibly suicidal. She felt insecure about the hospital

thing and couldn't stay with a friend. She wanted to be close to me. She was dysfunctional and begged to come over, end quote. So Ozil claimed that he and his wife pitied Judalon and invited her to stay in their spare bedroom for a few days. But the days turned into weeks and then months as allegedly Judalon continued threatening to take her own life and also to tell the police what she knew about the Menendez brothers. On the other hand, Judilon claims that Ozil kept her hostage in his house, telling her that she was mentally ill and if she left, he would have her committed. Both Jerome and his wife, Laura Ozil, have denied this. They said they believed that Judilon enjoyed the warmth and consistency of their family life and so she threatened them in order to stay now in January of 1990 Judilon borrowed five thousand dollars from Dr oziel and in early February Judilon wrote oziel a letter saying quote as strong and as well

as you're handling all of this I can see that you need some taking care of as well thank you for loving me and protecting me and sharing your home and family end quote so basically Dr oziel So basically, Dr. Ozeal and his wife are trying to make it seem like this is just a poor girl that was staying with them. There was no relationship going on. There had been a relationship, but when Judalon was living with them, because she was so mentally disturbed, there was no relationship. But Ozeal's own daughters, at least one of them, had walked in on their father and Judalon in her bedroom getting fresh. And so it's me. Why did she write those things if she was being held captive? As she had alleged, Judilon claimed that Dr. Ozeal had forced her to write him a love letter every day, and if she didn't, he would hit her. In mid-February, Judilon rearranged the furniture in the Ozeal home, and when Jerome returned, there was an argument. Now, Dr. Ozeal said that Judilon went crazy and demanded that Laurel and

the children leave so that she could have him all to herself. She claimed that he became angry, he attempted to choke her, and he pulled her hair before forcing her to have unconsensual sexual intercourse with him. In early March of 1990, Dr. Ozeal found out from his 13-year-old daughter that Judilon had been telling her that she was having a relationship with her father and that she might be replacing her mother. But the girl should not tell mommy and daddy because it was their little secret. At that point, Oziel became angry and demanded that Judalon leave the house. And that was when she went to the police with what she knew. So that kind of goes back to what previous people had said about Judalon, that she seemed perfectly normal until a breakup happened.

And then she sort of became vindictive and did whatever she could to hurt the person who had hurt her. And you could say that this is kind of what happened here. That doesn't mean that it wasn't true though. Oh no. Yeah. For sure. I think both, that's the funny thing. As I'm sitting here digesting everything you're saying for the first time, I'm feeling like 95% of what she's saying is true and 95% of what he's saying is true. Although they're coming from different perspectives and they're both omitting certain things that would make them look bad. Right. So they're just kind of like, they're curving the truth to fit their narrative and make them look like the victim. But I definitely think this is a situation where none of this happens. If Ozeal doesn't abuse his privilege as a as a doctor and take advantage of this woman who if he's as good as he thinks he is, would have known there was some undertone there. There's some things going on and she was looking for help, not a relationship.

And he took advantage of that. He's the he's in the wrong here. And she was looking for help, not a relationship. And he took advantage of that. He did. He's in the wrong here. And then once he did, now he takes on this woman who he shouldn't have in the first place. And once he decides he's over it and not with it anymore, now he's dealing with the ramifications of that, which he should have picked up on in the first place. So you reap what you sow, man. He kind of walked into this. But yes, absolutely. Even this one comment you just said about Judelon saying to Ozeal's daughter, like,

I'm going to replace your mommy. I definitely think that's true. I definitely think she was saying that stuff. But he was leading her to believe that because there's tons of phone conversations she recorded where Ozeal's like, you know, I'm going to leave my wife. Like, she already knows it's going to happen. Like Like we're going to have, you know, all this future faking where I have this life, we're going to go this place. He was making her this, these promises. Yeah. She's, this is a product of his environment for sure. He's, he's definitely,

this is one of those situations where it's clear. None of this other stuff happens if he doesn't do what he did initially. But still, you can look at it separately and say, yeah, she was doing some things too that we don't personally agree with. And so on March 8th, 1990, the Beverly Hills Police Department showed up to the Ozeal home with a warrant for six audio tapes related to the commission of a felony. Did you analyze the entire transcript and the entire tape to see who, if there is just one person, keeps bringing up the killing?

Yes, I did. And who keeps bringing it up? Dr. Ozeal. Does he bring it up in context or does he bring it up out of context? He brings it up out of context. And then does Dr. Ozeal do something inappropriate starting at line 16?

Yes. And how would you characterize what he's doing here? What he is doing here, he starts arguing now with him and he brings in his own theory. He says because you've never really lived with him anyway, he doesn't in any way explore what Lyle Menendez has just said and starts trying to interject his theory on this father-son closeness, this bond, this earlier statement that goes back to the earlier pages of the tape. Where Lyle is talking about how he thought he was the ideal father?

Yes. And Dr. Ozil is trying to discount that? Yes, he is. And does Lyle Menendez agree with him? Lyle Menendez does, yes, on line 21. He first agrees where he says, yeah, exactly, I mean. Then we have a statement where Eric Menendez comes in and then Lyle comes back again and disagrees saying, I felt the bond though.

So Dr. Oziel is trying to say that there was no bond, there was nothing between you and your father, and basically Lau rejects that and says, I felt a bond with my father. Yes. Based on the tone of voice and the way that Dr. Ozeal was following up on statements made by the brothers, was he doing something vis-à-vis the fact of the homicide that you thought was highly inappropriate?

Yes. What was he doing that for a therapist you would consider highly inappropriate? What he was doing was to encourage the talk, really was encouraging that two things. One, that it not be fully explored. And second of all, he was approving in a certain way. He was approving of homicide? Yes.

Is that appropriate for a therapist? No, it's not. In your training and the training that you give to your students, in a circumstance like this where you're faced with patients who have done something bad, I suppose is as good a word as any. Yes. And there's expressions of regret and guilt and remorse. What is the appropriate goal of the therapy?

Appropriate goal of the therapist would be to get the patient to come to grips with that and what the next step is going to be in terms of the guilt and the remorse and to move forward with this, not to keep it covered up. What is the appropriate next step, the ethical appropriate next step for a therapist to be working with a patient like this? The next step is to come forward with this to the police. For the patient to come forward? Yes.

To encourage the patient to come forward? With the therapist to come. Yes. To encourage the patient to come forward with the therapist support. Is there anything in here that shows that Dr. Ozil was making any efforts to ready Lyle and Eric Menendez to come forward with this thing that they were feeling guilty about? No. Is there an indication in here that he is supporting a cover up? Yes, he is. It would eventually become quite the issue that Dr. Ozeal had not only taped these conversations, but that he had not come forward and gone to the police with what he had learned. Now, the prosecution wanted to include the tapes and Dr. Ozeal's notes in the trial, but the Menendez brothers and even Dr. Ozeal wanted them excluded from evidence

on the grounds that they contained privileged client-therapist communications. After conducting in-camera hearings on the issue, the Superior Court ruled that all the communications were intended by the brothers to be confidential. However, they had lost their patient-doctor privilege because Dr. Ozil reasonably concluded that disclosure was necessary to warn third parties of the dangers posed. Meaning, because Dr. Ozil had felt it was necessary to warn his wife and his girlfriend, you know, about this possibility that Eric and Lyle could murder Dr. Ozil or Judilon or Laurel, everything said during the sessions fell under the dangerous patient exception in the privilege rules. Additionally, once the brothers had threatened their therapist's life,

any sessions afterwards would no longer be considered therapeutic. So basically, from that October 31st date where Lyle had made Dr. Ozeal feel as if he was in danger, the sessions that happened afterwards were not considered therapy sessions. They were pretty much just people sitting down and talking. Now, according to Dr. Jerome Ozeal, he never confided in Judilon about what the brothers had told him during their sessions, and he never asked her to spy on or record these sessions. But he also can't really explain how she knew so much, like, you know, about the tape recordings in the safe about where the brothers had bought the guns, etc. He speculated, quote, she might have gotten some information from other sources and then tried to place herself center stage as the person who held the truth about this matter and was a critical

witness. So many of the things she is alleged to have heard are absolutely false in relation to what any patient ever said to me in any session. Throughout the time I knew her, she never claimed to have overheard anything. Only when this became public, all of a sudden she overheard everything, end quote. Which is funny because I feel like Dr. Ozeal had said that after Dudalon moved in, she threatened to kill herself

and then threatened to go to the police with what she knew about the Menendez brothers, which means that she had revealed to him that she'd heard or knew something about the Menendez brothers. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's no doubt about it. He's definitely got himself.

Yeah, he's got himself. I mean, at this point, I'm surprised any of his testimony, actually, the judge didn't say, hey, listen, we can't even. This guy's perjuring himself left and right on the stand. So he did testify during the first trial. The second trial. Nah, they did, they didn't bring him back. Can we go back to this exception? Because I don't want to skip over this. I didn't

want to cut you in the middle of it, but it's something we talked about heavily at the beginning of the episode and here you go. And this does make sense to me where I had given the example that if the doctor feels that someone else's life is in jeopardy, whether it's theirs or someone else in the community, they can then break that clause and that confidentiality agreement and go tell law enforcement. So that's at least good. I'm glad to hear that upheld and that stuck because absolutely, if they have the ability to prevent another loss of life, they should be able to come forward. I still feel like if someone's admitting to you that they killed someone, even though they're not confessing to others, there could be more and they may do it again. And so it's still for me, I don't know, I know I'm

biased, but it's still for me an area where you would like to think that if it's concrete that this person killed someone before, even if they're like, I killed this person, I won't do it again. I would think that the doctor would be able to come out and tell law enforcement that, but here we are. They can't. They can't. It is what it is, but at least there's something there. I don't love it, but at least there's something where they can't just hold onto that information if they feel this person may go on to shoot up a school. Doesn't it almost feel like a loophole kind of like, oh, well, the therapist could just say, well, you know, I felt threatened. Of course.

That's what you mean by the subjectivity. Yeah, it's so subjective. Well, I think that would be a way, whether you agree with it or not. Let's say a patient comes in and gives the scenario, you know, we killed someone behind a schoolyard one time. It was a young student walking home. Nobody was around. I grabbed her and I killed her. Could that doctor say, listen, based on my analysis, it sounds like this person could do it again. It looks like they have this predatory behavior where they're looking for another victim. Would that hold up? I don't know. No, you don't think so. I think it's again, subjective. I think it could, I think law enforcement would try. Yeah, I guess if, but I think you'd have to have

a specific third party that you were concerned about. So if this person said, I killed X person three years ago, and now I'm thinking about killing Y person. Now you can go and say something because you know of a third party that's potentially in danger. I wonder if they just said, I still drive by the schools after hours and when kids are getting out and I look and I think about it. Probably not because especially with something like that, because they consider that type of behavior to be a mental illness. How is a person like that supposed to get help and get better if they can't be honest about the urges that they're having? That person, if they killed a young kid, they should be in prison. They don't need help. I agree with you.

I know, I know, I know. I'm debating you like you're defending them. You're preaching to the choir. At that point, it's out. The jury's out, man. Yeah. I wonder if once the patient who's confessed passes away, can the therapist or the psychologist then? Ah, interesting. Because if it's an unsolved case, like you were saying, like maybe an 11-year-old girl gets kidnapped and this doctor is sitting here like, I know what happened. This is an unsolved case. I'm seeing it on TV. I know what happened.

And then the person dies and can they finally come out and say something? Like does the death of the patient trump that privilege? I don't know. I'm sure if the doctor really wanted to, they'll find that loophole. They will find that loophole

to disclose what they've learned. Yeah, I wouldn't hold on to that information. This is why I can't do it. I can't do it. Yeah, I think so. And it's a very tough position to be in. I'd be sending anonymous on to that information. This is why I can't do it. I can't do it. Yeah, I think so. And it's a very tough position to be in. I'd be sending anonymous letters to the police. Yeah, smoke signals.

Yeah, something, anything, right? Like some Zodiac killer, like newspaper posted letters just sending in. Yeah, you'd be like, sir, detective, can you come by to my office? And all around the office is picture frames saying, I know who killed so-and-so. But you don't say, you're like, this is just my artwork. Or like picture frames of that one patient and the detective. And you're like, listen, I have a patient. And they've confessed to me, but I can't say who it is.

And you kind of like look at the pictures like, can't say, dude. Something. You got to do something. Got to do something. But anyways, it wasn't just Judelon who alleged that Dr. Ozel had an inappropriate relationship with her. Two former nannies of the Oziel family also claimed they had intimate activities with him during the 1980s. I know, so weird. And there were multiple other women that he had brought under his wing,

and he would receive love letters from these women and then show these letters to his other girlfriends. You had an entire bag or bags of love letters in your house from a variety of women at that time. Isn't that true? No, it isn't true. Didn't you, in fact, show love letters from other women to Judelon? I don't recall that. And if so, I don't don't believe that they were in my house. And didn't you show similar love letters from other women to Alexandra Corey

when she was your girlfriend? Yeah, don't recall that. How about Cynthia McPhee? Didn't you show her letters from other women that you kept for years in your house? I'm honestly surprised this guy wasn't on trial after all this. Yes, well, he would eventually get his license revoked. Shocker.

Yeah. I would hope so. He already did. Even at the point that this happened, he already had some allegations against him that had kind of put him on a probationary sort of thing. Oh, I'm sure he had some civil cases. He was probably testifying again, just not in this trial anymore. But it kind of does give credence to what Judelon Smith said,

where Dr. Ozeal forced her or basically coerced her to write him a love letter every single day. Because why is this one average looking medium ugly man who really doesn't have much to offer besides his ability to manipulate people because he's familiar with the human brain why is he getting all these love letters from all these women why are all these women head over heels well because he's finding women in weak and vulnerable positions and then basically reforming them as if he was a cult leader yeah yeah very similar finding people who are have lost their way need help and he's exactly he's taking advantage of it absolutely we got a little beverly hills charles manson over here but because of dr ozeal and mainly judel and smith

eric and lyle menendez were arrested and history was made as news crews from around the country descended on the quiet and upscale neighborhoods of bever Hills, changing them forever. Because I mean, this was a huge case. Jose and Kitty being murdered, people thinking it was the mob, pictures of Eric and Lyle looking just devastated in their pastel sweater sets. You know, just this whole, and everyone was, oh, I feel so bad for them,

these poor kids. And now all of a sudden it comes out, oh, these poor kids killed their parents. It was huge. It was a scandal. It blew up. And that's where we're going to pick up with in our final episode. Yeah, as I'm looking back at this episode, I can see here on the script that it says Dr. Ozeal is what we're going to name the episode, which we had in the script, which

is fitting. We talk a lot about Dr. Ozeal, but when you really think about this case and why we are where we are today, it sounds to me like we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for Judelon Smith, because ultimately she was the one who led law enforcement to the guns. She was the one who started them on the trail of there being tapes inside the safe. So overall, she's really the key to this case. Yeah. Dr. Ozeal never would have said a word if he benefited from it. Yeah. I was thinking of naming the episode confidentiality. No, I think Dr. Ozeal's fitting because he brought Judelon into it. Yeah, he's the catalyst.

He brought Judelon into this as well. So, you know. Not according to him. He just showed up in his waiting room. Who believes him at this point? Jesus. Not me. So that is really fascinating.

I did not see this going this way. I didn't think that you were going to tell me by episode six that the psychologist's mistress who was living with him for a short period of time was the reason that the Menendez brothers were caught. Yeah. Living with him and his wife. I did not see. That was not on my bingo card. I don't think it was on Dr. Oziel's bingo card either. He's good at seeing things for what they are.

He missed that one. He didn't predict that one. No. That's all I got. I mean, I know we have probably, we still have more to go, a couple more episodes, but I do feel as far as the Menendez brothers in this episode taking away everything we just said,

I can see the shift in the motive being more related to the pain and suffering that they endured at the hands of Jose and Kitty, as opposed to them killing Jose and Kitty for the money. Which, when we get into the final question, which will be, was the sentencing accurate and was it fair? That could be a big contributing factor to that. So we will get there. This is a long one, but I think it's worth it. There's a lot to cover. We're going into all the details and we will be back next week. You don't have anything else, right? We can wrap this up. Let's wrap it up.

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