Crime Weekly - S3 Ep237: Gainsville Ripper: The “Maximum Man" (Part 4)

Episode Date: August 30, 2024

In late August 1990, Gainesville, Florida, was bustling with the excitement of college students returning to the University of Florida for the Fall semester. However, the anticipation of a new school year quickly turned to horror on August 26, when two students, Christi Powell and Sonja Larson, were discovered brutally murdered in their off-campus apartment. This gruesome discovery was only the beginning. Within two days, three more students were viciously killed in their own apartments. The once vibrant town was now gripped by fear, as students worried they’d be the next victim of the serial killer nicknamed the Gainesville Ripper. Try our coffee!! - www.CriminalCoffeeCo.com Become a Patreon member -- > https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeekly Shop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shop Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcast Website: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.com Instagram: @CrimeWeeklyPod Twitter: @CrimeWeeklyPod Facebook: @CrimeWeeklyPod ADS: 1. FreshDirect.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY and get $50 off your first order! 2. SKIMS.com/CrimeWeekly - Check out SKIMS, available in sizes XXS - 4X! Select our podcast in the survey and let them know we sent you! 3. HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 25% off all mattresses and two FREE pillows! 4. Prose.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 50% off your first subscription order and a FREE in-depth hair consultation today! 5. MintMobile.com/CrimeWeekly - Get a 3-month premium plan for just $15 a month!

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off, plus a free four-year warranty. Tonal.com. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow. And I'm Derek Levasseur. So today we're diving into part four of the Gainesville Ripper case, and it's heating up. I'm just going to say that. I don't want to go to—I want to dive right in because this is a good episode. It's heating up. So after Danny Rowling, who we know-know is the Gainesville Ripper, after he was sent to Florida State Prison to serve life sentences for the string of robberies and burglaries that he committed in August and September of 1990, he befriended two inmates, Bobby Lewis and Russell Binstead. saw an opportunity to exploit Danny's notoriety and eventually convinced him to share details of the Gainesville Ripper murders with the police, which we remember Bobby and Danny sat down with the police for the most part, especially in the beginning. Bobby was sort of Danny's mouthpiece,

but then as they kind of went forward and as they spent hours together, Danny started speaking for himself. So on January 31st and February 4th, 1993, this is when Danny with Bobby by his side sat down with FDLE agents, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and they revealed chilling, detailed confessions about the murders of Sonia Larson, Christy Powell, Krista Hoyt, Manny Tabata, and Tracy Paules. Now, also remember that Danny had become engaged to a freelance journalist, Sondra London, who he met through Bobby, because Bobby and Sondra were sort of talking about maybe writing a book, maybe figuring out some way to capitalize on the Gainesville Ripper story. So on February 5th, just one day after meeting with FDLE agents, Danny's fiancée, freelance journalist Sondra London,

was allowed to visit him in prison for the first time. And this was one of the reasons that Danny had agreed to talk to law enforcement was because he wanted to be able to meet the love of his life and spend time with her in person. So Sondra later recounted their visit, saying, quote, I approached my meeting with Danny thinking I was prepared for anything, but there was one thing I was not prepared for. I had no idea what a fine-looking man he is today.

Instead of the broken and dejected loser I'd seen on TV, standing before my hungry eyes was one gorgeous hunk of man. I'm sorry, folks, but it's the truth. My maximum man stands an imposing six foot two inches with muscles out to here. His color is bright. His youthful skin is glowing. His hazel eyes are clear. And so is his head.

The news footage publicized the courtroom image of him stumbling about awkwardly, stupefied by Thorazine and seemingly lost in his own body. But now my dangerous pussycat strides across the floor with a languid power and instinctive grace that makes me highly aware that I am a woman and this is a man. End quote. You included this quote just to make me gag. I mean, I included it because I had to. We always hear about these women who like flock to serial killers or violent men who are in prison. Ted Bundy had them. Chris Watts had them.

Every everyone has them. Even women. Scott Peterson. Even women who go to prison for like violent crimes. They attract weirdos. And am I saying Sondra London is a weirdo? Yep. Yeah. Scott Peterson. sexually assaulted them before and after death, decapitated one of them. And this is my dangerous pussycat? Bitch, you're crazy. Okay?

You belong in prison with him. You're a crazy weirdo. Yep, you're weird. That's all I'm going to say about that. And you know where these people come from, even the killers themselves, but also I think their associates like Asandra. Their admirers? Their admirers, but I think they come from it where you had said last episode,

what was the reasoning behind five people being killed? What was the justification that he gave for the five years he was served in prison? Yeah, allegedly. That's what he said. I'm not saying we agree with it or whatever, but there's always a story behind it. In some cases, it's just, I had a bad childhood. I was traumatized. And so this was my way of- Somebody hurt me, so I hurt- Yes. So I hurt someone. And in this case, it's, well, I served five years in prison wrongfully. So this was my retaliation.

Not wrongfully. He just didn't like the way he was treated in prison. Correct. Because it's supposed to be a fun experience apparently, I guess. Right. Yeah. So this is the way these guys justify this. And in some cases you have associates who buy into that as well, which makes it even worse. And you have to, because now they're thinking, right? Danny's thinking, oh, I'm not like a leper of society. I'm not an outcast. There's people who accept me for my murderous, my murderous thoughts, my murderous actions. What did she what did she call him? My maximum man, meaning like maximum security prison, by the way.

This is a fetish. This is weird. This is not, I'm not normally saying that people's sexual fetishes are weird. You do what you got to do. If it's consensual, if you're having a good time, if you enjoy it, I don't care what people do in the privacy of their own bedrooms. But fetishizing a serial killer to the point where you're like acting like this is the first real man you've ever met this is twisted you need mental health help you probably deserve to be behind bars Sandra London okay I'm just debating if I'm naming this episode maximum man or dangerous my dangerous maximum man or dangerous pussycat Jesus this woman is uh it's you're part of the problem okay

you are proud and then i like how she's like his hazel his hazel eyes are clear and so is his head no it's not no it's not i guarantee you his head is uh anything but clear it's a it's a dark twisted web of chaos and uh yeah this man does not have a clear head. OK, we've heard him talk. He's not right. And you're not right because you're getting off on this. Anyways, we think Sandra's crazy. Yeah, we don't have a lot of confidence in Sandra. No, she's not the most reliable narrator. Let's just say that. So following her first in-person meeting with Danny, Sandra publicly announced that she had secured exclusive rights to all felt that they were accepted, it's very powerful. So for Sandra to come in and be like, Danny, I don't care that you killed five people. I don't care that you shot your father. I don't care that you have done horrible, terrible things. I accept you exactly as you are. Nay, I love you and want you because of who you are. That's going to be

such a powerful motivation for him to do whatever the hell Sandra London wants, by the way. She's manipulating him, I think, because there's no possible way, unless she's literally like off her rocker as much as he is, there's no possible way that she's as into him as she's pretending to be. I think she just wanted, I think she wanted his story so she could get famous off of it, get famous and rich off of it yeah i agree i agree completely i i said it last episode i feel like the whole thing is set up where danny not trying to make him look like he's somehow a victim in this by any stretch so i hope i'm not going there but to me it felt like a collaborative effort between bob and Sandra to get Danny to open up to them and to utilize his story to benefit them.

For Bobby, it was a lesser sentence, getting out of prison early. And for Sandra, it was the notoriety that would come from this case. The notoriety, the money, because remember last episode, we talked about how I was trying to look it up to see this guy's name, but we talked about how she had been dating somebody and this guy ended up committing some murders. And she became a journalist when she wrote about him, this dude she was dating who was a murderer. So she's got a pattern. I mean, that formula worked for her the first time. Why wouldn't it work the second time? Yeah.

She got a type. But I agree. I think there's an agenda for sure. And maybe she did develop feelings for him. I don't know. But there's definitely a reason behind all of this. And I think right here, her behavior shows that. She's trying to capitalize and monetize these tragedies.

There's no doubt about it. And so she's, you know, she's announcing this. She thinks it's some flex, but this announcement backfired because prison officials banned her from any further visits. Now, when officers were asked why they made this decision, they claimed that Sandra had misrepresented herself in order to gain access to Danny. They implied that she wasn't truly in love with Danny and that her And listen, we just said that. We agree. I don't – I can't possibly think that she literally meets him and she's like, oh, my God, that's my man.

That's my man, my man, my man, my maximum man. No. You're not buying it. No. You're not buying it. No. So Danny, of course, because he's DeLulu, he fought back against these claims. And he wrote a letter to the media, which read in part, quote, My relationship with Sandra runs as deep as the Amazon River and just as wild. She is an extremely exciting woman.

Just the mention of her name sends my heart racing to her. She is without a doubt my soulmate, and I thank God above for sending her my way. End quote. Danny went on to express his frustration about not being able to physically touch Sandra during their one and only visit. He stated, quote, We are desperately reaching for each other daily across miles of red tape cast before us by faceless foes.

We are denied even the simplest of human rights to just hold hands and speak to each other during a simple visit. End quote. You know what I think? Because this does not sound like Danny Rowling to me. This sounds like Sandra's flowery, dramatic writing. I bet you she wrote this statement for the media for him. And she was like, here, Danny, I took care of this for you. You don't think Danny the singer could have came up with like, here, Danny, I took care of this for you. My love.

You don't think Danny the singer could have came up with this? No, dude. I mean, come on. Give him a little credit. No. This is Sandra London all day. My relationship with Sandra runs as deep as the Amazon River and just as wild. Stop it.

I think there are two peas in a pod. I'm calling Danny did write this. I think they get off on each other's writings. Yeah, they're like. Oh, yeah. This is like poetry to each other. They're like Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Oh, no. Let us know what you guys think right now. Pause the video. Did Danny write this? I think this is his love letter back to her. He knows she's going to read it. We are desperately reaching for each other daily across miles of red tape cast before us by faceless foes. She wrote this. They can write letters to each other in prison all day, any day. He doesn't care if she sees this or not.

They're writing to each other. She's not banned from writing to him or having calls with him. Danny's going to not be happy with you. Well, Danny- He wants his credit. He wants his flowers. I hope that Danny went on to write a moving book of poetry with all of this flowery writing that he apparently is capable of out of nowhere for absolutely no reason. So he can get his flowers. OK. He is an artiste.

Shots fired. So with both Danny and Sandra or Sandra and Sandra speaking to the media about their relationship, it quickly turned into a spectacle, of course, with numerous outlets reporting on their romance. However, despite Danny and Sandra's insistences that they were madly in love, most people didn't believe them because most people have two brain cells to rub together to make a spark. So many suspected that Sandra was more of a serial killer groupie using Danny for a story. And when Danny heard about these allegations, he requested an interview with Channel 9 News to set the record straight. Surprisingly, prison officials agreed to this and allowed Danny to meet with a journalist in a room lined with armed guards. I'm not sure why they agreed to this. Why is the prison kind of leaning

into the spectacle of this romance between Danny and Sandra when you have five people who are dead, potentially an entire family in Louisiana that's dead, right? That Danny Rawlings is responsible for and you're like leaning into this whole romance aspect. But they did. They let these journalists come in and meet with Danny. And as cameras rolled, Danny sat across the table from the journalist and read a prepared statement defending Sandra. I wonder who prepared the statement for him, Derek. Oh, man. Let Danny live. Let Danny live. I don't think he's alive anymore.

Well, in this moment, we're talking in past tense, I guess. I 100% do not want to let him live. That's fair. And it's like, you're right, though. If this chick's manipulating him, he deserves it. I hope that he. Oh, I mean, listen, I don't feel bad for the guy. No, I hope he legitimately felt like he was loved and then he realized that she was just using him and it crushed his very soul.

I hope that happened. So we actually have a few clips from his statement that that we're going to play for you. Yes, we do. We're going to play them right now. Sondra London is a colorful and bright woman, intelligent, talented. And it's a shame the way the media has bashed her as of late. She hasn't done anything to deserve that. Sondra is a worthy soul who only tries to bring the very best out of all she does. Sandra London is not, I repeat, not using me, period. No one is using me. Over the past 180 days, Sandra and myself have tried by protocol and through proper channels to get her approved to

visit me, and she was allowed to visit me behind the glass once. Miss London represents me as editor, agent and media go-between. From this point on, I shall make no further statements to the press unless Sondra London arranges it. If you wish to speak to me, speak to Miss London. We're going to take our first break and then we're going to come back and we have a few more clips to play you, but we're also going to discuss what this prepared statement by Danny was. Okay, we're back. So while reading his prepared statement, Danny also made sure to mention that everything he and Bobby Lewis told the police was said without coercion and without a deal, which was a great thing.

Maybe that's why prison officials were like, yeah, come in, record this dude. He never stops talking. This is big time, right? Because no coercion, no deal. This is awesome. No duress. He's doing this under his own volition. So we're going to play these clips right now. Any and all parties involved in the investigation underway concerning the Gainesville murders have been and will be dealt with in an honorable fashion. The wheels of justice may turn slow, but they do turn. You don't ask of justice, it asks of you. The prison officials here at FSP have not made any deals with me, period, nor have they made any promises to Bobby Lewis or myself, period. I've not been coerced into making any statements, period. So after reading the statement, Danny stood up and said he couldn't answer any other questions.

Now, I want to talk about the statement really quickly. We'll go back to his talking about Sondra London. You know, she's a colorful, bright woman. She's intelligent, talented. It's a shame the way the media has treated her. She hasn't done anything to deserve this. She's a worthy soul. She's a victim. She's completely innocent. She's only trying to help everybody. He says, she is not, and I repeat, not using me, period. He discusses the fact that he was only allowed to visit with Sandra once and there was glass between them and that she is not only the love of his life, his soulmate, and the most amazing person who ever walked the face of the earth, but she is his editor, his agent, and his media go-between, his spokesperson.

And from this point on, he will make no further statements to the media, to the press, without Sondra London arranging it. So he's now tying them together. If you want to get to me, you have to go through her. And that means I have to keep her in my life. She stays inville Ripper murders and how nothing was coerced and there was no deal. He says the wheels of justice may turn slow, but they do turn. You don't ask of justice. It asks of you. Wow, this is very deep.

He says they haven't made any promises to me. They haven't made any promises to Bobby Lewis. I have not been coerced into making any statements to me. They haven't made any promises to Bobby Lewis. I have not been coerced into making any statements, period. As the investigators are sitting on the side of this press, like just smiling or trying not to smile. Like, thank you. That's what we needed. But I also feel like in the same breath, you said, period, Sandra London's not using me, period. But she definitely is. So like, are you the best judge of what's real and what's not? I don't know. I don't know.

No, I will. We don't have confirmation, but I think this last little, that last little paragraph that you just read there, there might've been something where law enforcement officials did say, we'll allow you to do this, but if you do it, you have to put out publicly that we didn't, we didn't coerce you into doing this or making any statements. We want to have a qualifier in there because that does sound like something a detective or a lawyer would write for him to say, hey, we need you to say this or it's not going to go out. Yeah, that may have happened. Yeah, that may have been one of the reasons that they allowed him to do that if he was able to do it. Well, wouldn't that be considered making a deal with him then? Like you can't get what you want unless

you say what we want. Yeah, no, it's not a deal. There's no promises we want. We're not making any promises, Danny. We're not making any promises, Bobby or Sandra, but, and we want you to say that publicly. And if you do, we'll allow it all to go out. But we want you to say to all the media outlets that you're not doing this because we're forcing you to. As long as you do that, you can say whatever you want to say. Because to them, as long as he makes that statement, he's not going to be able to use it later as a defense. Now, just to counteract that, there have been times where in my own experience and in just other cases that I've researched and worked where there's been a statement given with right in the written statement after the person signs it, where it says you've not been

coerced or threatened to make any of these statements. Right. And you sign it and they still come back and say, well, yeah, no, they threatened me and made me sign that. And then, oh, they threatened me and made me say that. So nothing is ironclad, but it does help. As long as you have it out there, it does help. But there are situations where it can still be overturned because if they can convince whoever that indirectly they were being threatened to sign this or say that, then it could still be inadmissible. I wanted to talk a little bit about Sondra London, just to sort of support what Derek and I both believe to be true is that this was a pattern for her. She was in a documentary a while ago, and she talked about how she was first

inspired to write about crime after she reached a plateau in her career as a technical writer. So that is when she contacted the incarcerated serial killer, G.J. Schaefer, who was actually an ex-police officer doing two life sentences for murder. She had dated him in high school, and then he went on. They lived separate lives. He killed a bunch of people, and then he went to prison. And so she contacts him. She reaches back out to him. And during this time period, the former deputy sheriff became obsessed with Sondra London, and he started revealing things about his crimes while they were having these prison visits together, and he would reveal things in letters to her. And London terminated the professional relationship with Schaefer after he threatened her life if she were ever to show authorities his incriminating letters. London went on to file these written threats and confessions with the court in defense of a lawsuit by Schaefer, charging her with falsely stating Schaefer was a serial killer. Upon reading 500 pages of Schaefer's

handwritten statements attached to London's response, the judge threw Schaefer's lawsuit out. Now, after his death, Sondra London's sworn testimony was used to close two cold case murders of Schaefer in the Osala National Forest. So there's actually some, she actually benefited some people, some victims here, right? Maybe even unintentionally. But she did seek him out knowing he was a serial killer and sort of warming her way into his heart in order to get details about his crimes that he hadn't divulged to anybody else before. Then she collaborates with serial killer Danny Rowling. They go on to write this book together, The Making of a Serial Killer, The Real Story of the Gainesville Murders, a psychological memoir,

which included Rowling's confessions to five murders, along with other capital crimes for which he had not been charged. And this book was published by a publishing company called Feral House. It was also illustrated by 50 pictures hand-drawn by Danny Rowling in prison. She's been on many documentaries. She was on Larry King Live. She's been on Dateline. So it's not Geraldo Rivera, A Current Affair, Court TV, Channel 4, BBC. She's been all over, right? So she's not a figure that people don't take seriously, I suppose. It's just that I believe she literally has a pattern where she uses these men to get information and she tells them she's in love with them.

And so then she has to tell everybody else that she's in love with them so that they believe it because she can't tell them she's in love with them and then go out to the world and be like i'm not really in love with them i'm just using him to get this info so it's this act she has to put on in this game she has to play but this is this is not something that accidentally happened once and you just fell in love with a serial killer you you fell in love allegedly with two serial killers and then used what they told you to benefit financially, professionally, whatever. Well, let me just counter that. Is it possible she is using this as a professional tactic? I, as an undercover detective, have convinced multiple people, hundreds of people in my career that I was really their friend. There were even times where it didn't get too far, but convinced them that there was some type of romantic interest on my part to get people to open up to me and tell me things that would ultimately be used against them or people in their circle later.

So did I fall in love with all these drug dealers or did I actually have? I don't know. Did you, Derek? I mean, listen, sometimes, sometimes. It's got to be real, right? They told me they loved me. It was real for me. If the case, any of them are watching. Yeah. It was real for me. Oh, you got to keep that going. Now you're, now you're going to have some like jilted ex lover slash drug slash drug dealer who listens to this. And she's like, wait, Derek really wasn't in love with me. That's it. It's over for you now. It's over for you. You just, you exposed yourself. I definitely had some people pissed off. Not women. I don't want to go there, but I definitely had some people pissed off. You should have, you should have like recorded this

because I would love to hear some of these interactions. I have a couple of them. I don't know what I can play. I have recordings from, so we used to use a key fob that had a camera in it and I would record some of them. You know what? I think I have some of them. I have to see if I can get clearance, but I know I have some of them and maybe if I can get the clearance for it, because the cases are adjudicated and we blur out and kind of alter the voices of the suspects. I wonder if I could play a couple of them. They're pretty cool. Serious note, there is a world. Is Sandra still around? Yes. Okay. So Sandra's still around. She may hear this. She may hear this episode. She may watch it. I would think she probably would say, I did this to get the story. I did this to get the information.

And by the way, what I did is the reason you have closure in these cases. But she didn't do it. That's the difference for me. It's not like you're a police officer. And the only reason you're lying and manipulating another human being is so that you can bring closure to their family members. So you can bring closure to a legal court case. She's doing it so she can benefit financially and professionally herself. So is there a fine

line for me? And if some of the stuff she got, especially from her first serial killer boyfriend, ended up helping to close out some of these cold cases, that's great. But I don't believe that was her initial intention. And so intention really matters in things like this. Like are you manipulating and lying to people to gain personal benefit to get to further yourself? If so, then you're just – I don't think that people who do that are good people and have good intentions. Not like a police officer, an undercover person who's just trying to like put the bad guys away and he's not benefiting financially from it himself. It's just like, that's my job and I'm helping like protecting and serving. Whereas she's like, how can I benefit myself and make money off of other people's deaths and other people's crimes? So you, in a way, you're not any better than a serial killer that

publishes their own memoir and makes money off of their crimes. You know, that's where I'm at. I'm with you. And this might be a surprise to some of you, but I would I could also say that for detectives. There are some detectives who may their incentive behind doing such a good job may be for accolades or promotion. So you could I'm not I don't know, Sandra. I'm just throwing it out there. There is a world where Sandra was doing this for the betterment of society. She was getting close to these monsters to try and get them to open up and eventually

confess to what they did. And I do have to pose the question, if not for Sandra, does Danny Rawlings come out and ever admit to any of this? I don't know. Right? I don't know. Think about it. Just putting that out there. Team Sondra?

Are we Team Sondra now? I'm definitely not going to say that. Not there yet? No. We're not there yet? No, not for her maximum man. No, that's overkill, man. Not for the maximum man.

She did go a little bit above and beyond. I'll give you that. That's overkill. man. Not for the maximum. And she did go a little bit above and beyond. I'll give you that. That's overkill. That's too much. You're doing too much. So anyways, Danny tells the reporters, listen, this is the last thing I'm saying. Anything else is going through my boo, Sandra. And after reading the statement, Danny stood up.

He was like, I'm not answering any more questions. Now, the journalist, she tried to ask Danny a few questions. Anyways, he ignored her. He was like, I said what I said, and I meant it. Now, following the Channel 9 interview, the media circus continued. And at some point, Sandra collaborated with a jeweler to create a custom engagement ring based on a design that Danny had made. Now, Sandra actually paid for the ring by trading some of Danny's artwork to the jeweler. In the end, the ring featured five

stones, one diamond and four rubies. And Sandra proudly displayed the ring to the media and hinted that the design was intentional. Now, what would be intentional about five stones, one diamond and four rubies? What would be intentional? I don't want to. I don't. I as soon as you said it, when you said five, not good. And I, then I asked the question, like, why, why the rubies in one diamond? What's the one diamond? I hope it's not what I think it is. That's all I'm saying. I believe it is what you think it is. Well, she didn't, she didn't elaborate, right? I can see that in the script here. She didn't elaborate further. She just said it was intentional and she left it at that. Did she ever expand upon the meaning behind it? I mean, gonna go ahead and um you know she she didn't

elaborate but you know she suggested that there was some meaning behind it correct yeah so what what meaning would there be behind it now there's a um a U.S. Sun article that Sondra London was interviewed for when she was 74. And she talks a little bit about being engaged to Danny Rawlings. She talks a little bit about the engagement ring was what we think it was, if it if it symbolized what we believe it symbolized, then we're not Team Sandra. Right. We're not. I would say this is going above and beyond the call of duty. Even in her 70s, though, Sandra's not saying I was just using this guy. She's saying, no, I did develop feelings for

him. She said that he professed his love for her in a letter, and he would often send her poems gushing about the way she made him feel. And she said, while the feelings were mutual, her priority was not pursuing a romantic relationship with him, but instead her priority was writing a book about the crimes he'd committed but hadn't confessed to yet. And I think she's kind of playing both sides here. She's like, no, I did love him. I did have mutual feelings for him. However, I was still focused on writing the book. Like that was what my interest was. And that was what I was there for. She had an interview in 1994 with ABC6, and she told the host, John Donovan, quote, when I was brought into the prison and introduced to Danny behind glass,

all of a sudden I found myself responding to him in a physical way, and I was not prepared for that. My ears went red. It's a physiological response, and this is why I had to admit that I love him, end quote. So yes, if the engagement ring with the four rubies and the one diamond, the five stones, represents what Derek and I both think it represents, we are not team Sandra. Okay? Just going to say that. Yeah. Yeah. And for anyone who's not picking up on what we're throwing down, we're saying one stone for each victim. And just to go back to what you

just said to not skip over it on my end, I'm playing devil's advocate with Sandra, but just from what you're conveying here, I think the theme, I think most people would agree with, is anything that Sandra does is for Sandra. Whether it's falling in love with Danny, whether it's writing the book, it's for self-serving purposes. I was giving her an out, basically hoping that she would write something or come out later and say,

listen, sometimes you got to get in the mud if you want to get to the end result that we're all looking for. I sacrificed a lot and I did a lot in order to get this man to confess. That's not what she's saying. Even later in life, she's saying, yeah, I actually did have feelings for him and I acted on him. And yeah, I did want him to tell me what happened because I wanted to write a book about it, which you would, which he would monet, you know, monetarily benefit from. So this is all about Sandra. And so I'm joking, but not joking when I say, are we team Sandra? But she's telling you exactly why she

did it. And you got to give her credit for that. At least she's honest. The media frenzy surrounding Danny and Sandra's relationship, it kept building, reaching an all-time high in September of 1993 when Danny had a resentencing hearing for the Winn-Dixie robberytime high in September of 1993 when Danny had a resentencing hearing for the Winn-Dixie robbery he committed in September of 1990. His original life sentence had been overturned by an appeals court, which ruled that Danny had not been informed before entering his guilty plea that he faced a life sentence as a habitual offender. So he had to be resentenced, and we're going to talk about that in a minute, but first we're going to take a quick break. All right.

So at the resentencing hearing, Danny was asked if he wanted to address the court. With a smile, Danny stood up and said that he did want to address the court. Then he turned his attention to the love of his life, Sandra, and he said, quote, they might keep you from me, but I want you to know they can't stamp out the love and affection that I have for you in my heart, end quote. After that, he began singing a song, a Danny Rowling original song. I recall the day I first saw you. I reached out to say I love you, but it was hard to say I couldn't touch you. So tell me baby, what were my words? All my tears run together. What were my words? All my tears run together. What were my words? All my tears run together, baby Just like rain Someone said to me

You can't run from your shadow And all you want to be Deep or shallow Down the path you choose to follow. So you see? Yeah, I know you're right. I'm thinking that. I know, he's a poet.

Okay. Can we give Danny some love? Can we show him some, can we give him some kudos here? I think he wrote, I think that people in the comments are going to agree with me. I think he wrote these, I think he wrote those initial statements. Maybe he did, man. And then he met Sandra. There we go, I convinced you. And then he met Sandra and she's got all of this like annoying, gushy, like, oh, this kind of like talk, by the way, makes me so uncomfortable when

people talk to each other like this. I don't know why, but I'm not into it. But he was like, oh, here's somebody who can love bomb just as good as me. Like is true love and on a serious note i know i'm joking a little bit about danny being a a writer forget this guy and by the way danny you're not you're no longer here from what stephanie's telling me but you suck as a singer so i'm not i don't i don't give you any credit at all you're you're a loser yeah you also suck as a person but as a hundred percent that's why i don't want to make light of a situation. He did kill five people. No, no.

He didn't have a career in singing. We'll put it that way. No, and it reminds me a lot of Charles Manson because Charles Manson did the same kind of stuff. He should have stuck to writing. He should have stuck to just putting his words on paper. But you know who did like this song, allegedly? Oh, let me guess.

It was Sandra. Your girl, Sandra. That's your girl, Sandra. Your girl, Sandra. So as Danny sang, and in an open courtroom while there's people there, you know, I'm so uncomfortable, Sandra bit her bottom lip and stared lustfully at him while playing with a chain around her neck that held a wedding ring meant for Danny. I just, I feel like I would just, I'm cringing for them. I'm cringing for everybody who had to see it. I would have just gotten up and left. I would have been like, I'm all set. I can't take,

I'm going to throw up. This is awful. Now the judge, thank God, eventually ordered Danny to stop singing and reminded him that they were there for a sentencing hearing, not for Danny to sing to Sandra. The judge then resentenced him to life in prison for the robbery. There you go. Congratulations. Great job. He's like, your song did not sway me. It made me feel that you belong behind bars so nobody has to be subjected.

After you sang, I was considering it. I was going to give you 15 to 30 years, but now you're getting life in prison again. For that tragedy, you're gone. It's over. So the media continued reporting on Sandra and Danny's romance. The prosecution and defense were preparing for the Ripper murders trial, which was scheduled to begin in February of 1994. In the same month as the robbery resentencing hearing, Danny's defense team went to the Florida State Prison to speak to Russell Binstead. Now, if you recall from the last part of the series, Danny met Russell around the same time that he met Bobby Lewis, you know, right after he was sent to FSP.

Russell and Bobby Lewis became Danny's confidants and even helped Danny fake a suicide attempt so that he could stay in that same ward that they were in and so they could continue having access to him because they were using him too. Now, after Danny underwent mental health testing at another prison, he was sent back to FSP where he was placed in the same wing as Bobby, and Bobby had sort of arranged this with the prison officials. When meeting with Danny's defense team, Russell explained that after Danny was transferred back to FSP, he mostly kept to himself talking only to Bobby, who had become his best friend. Bobby convinced Danny to talk to the police, which they did on January 31st and February 4th, 1993. But within just a few days of that second meeting, Bobby was moved out of the same wing as Danny. Prison officials explained to Danny's

defense that the move was right. It was for Bobby's own protection. They were concerned other inmates might want to harm him. In fact, they felt that there was three groups of inmates who posed a threat. One, friends of Danny who thought Bobby was a snitch. Two, inmates who disliked Danny and believed Bobby was his best friend. And three, inmates who feared Bobby might snitch on them too because he was known to be a police informant. He was known to work with the police and kind of do this. Based on these threats, prison officials recommended that Bobby be placed in a wing

with no inmate contact and that he be considered for an interstate transfer, quote, due to the extraordinary circumstances in this case. Now, Russell told Danny's defense team thatandy was distraught over Bobby's removal, and he felt betrayed by Bobby for leaving the wing without telling him. In response, Dandy began sharing information about the Ripper murders with Russell, hoping that Russell might get a deal instead of Bobby. So Dandy is, his loyalties are not strong. He's like, oh, I feel like you're betraying me.

I'm going to show you. It's like cheating on your girlfriend with someone else. He's going to dilute the information that Bobby has, making him less valuable. Now, over the course of the next six months, Danny spoke to Russell every single day, sharing details about the Ripper murders, which he had never revealed to Bobby or the police.

Russell went on to tell Danny's defense team what Danny had told him. Danny said he was under the influence of cocaine and alcohol at the time of the murders and that he purposely used the K-bar knife because it was designed for killing. It was heavy, sturdy, and had a broad blade with a bloodline down the middle, which Danny described as a groove that runs the length of the blade, allowing for easier penetration and removal from a body. Danny told Russell that the knife, quote, went in like butter, came out like butter, and stabbed through bone, end quote. Danny said that when he murdered Sonia Larson and Christy Powell, he entered their apartment and found Christy sleeping on the couch. Before he did anything, he noticed some stairs, so he followed those and he found Sonia sleeping in bed. At that

moment, Danny had decided which girl he wanted to rape. Whichever girl he didn't choose, he had to murder first. Danny made the quick decision to kill Sonia because he was already in her room. Then he went back downstairs and he forced Christy to perform oral sex on him. Russell asked Danny if he was concerned about Christy biting his penis and Danny said no. She was terrified and would have done anything he said

hoping that he would let her live. Danny added that he had Sonia's blood all over him which only made Christy more scared. In my opinion, this would only make me want to bite his dick off even more because I know you already killed my friend and I know you're probably also going to kill me because if you've already killed my friend, you're going to kill me. So anything I can do at this point to get some sort of edge in the situation and distract you

long enough for me to like run away because they're on the first floor now, right? The entrance door, the exit door is right there. I'm biting it off. I'm biting as hard as I possibly can. Okay. Yeah. It's unimaginable to be in that situation. I just, I don't know what the, I give a lot of advice here. I don't, I don't know what, I don't know what the play is. I don't, I don't know. You're in a real, you're really in a lose-lose situation, honestly. I think there's just hope. I mean, at that point, like I said, if you know that he killed my friend, he's not going to let me see his face, kill my friend, rape me and leave and think that I'm not going to go to the police. I know you're going to kill me. So at that point, it's a survival situation. Whatever you got to do, you're going to die either way.

If you can try to get out of it in any way you possibly can. And also, I wouldn't want this asshole to think like, oh, I have her so scared she's going to do whatever I want. There would be, it would anger me so much that he would think that like, oh, she's not going to fight back because she's so scared. And you're planning on killing me anyways, you asshole. Like, no, I'm going to take your penis with me. It's going with me. So you can't do this to anybody else ever again. Maybe there's a small hope that sociopath, he would find a way for some reason to

justify leaving me alive because of this. I don't know. I don't know. It's a loose, it's a terrible situation. I got nothing. Well, Danny further shared with his prison buddy, Russell, that when he raped Christy, she told him that he was hurting her. And he said to her, quote, take the pain, bitch, end quote. Danny also talked to Russell about Krista Hoyt's murder, claiming that he beheaded her and posed her body in the way he did for two reasons, to leave Gainesville with something to think about and to invoke terror. In addition to telling Russell about Krista's murder, Danny also wrote a full confession letter, which read, quote, I, Danny Rowling, used a screwdriver to pry open the double glass doors and entered her bedroom. The time was approximately 10 o'clock p.m. I waited until Ms. Hoyt returned. She had apparently been playing tennis. She was dressed in athletic t-shirt and shorts and tennis shoes. I watched her approach across the green lawn. She opened the door to her apartment and entered, closing the door behind

her. It was dark and I had moved a bookcase to her bedroom earlier to have a place to hide in the corner by the front door. She placed the tennis balls and racket on the kitchen table. Her back was to me, but she heard me moving towards her. She turned just as I grabbed her. There was a brief struggle and we went to the floor. I then duct taped her mouth closed and taped her hands behind her back. Then I moved her to her bedroom.

She was placed on the waterbed and her clothing was removed. I raped her. Afterwards, I turned her on her back and stabbed her once over the heart, through the back, on the right side. She died quickly, eight to ten seconds, and it was over. I then turned her over on her back, end quote. Danny went on to detail how he mutilated Christy's body with his K-bar knife. Then he wrote, quote, after I left, I discovered I had lost my wallet. So I returned to Miss Hoyt's apartment to look for it. It was nowhere to be found. End quote.

Danny said that as he was leaving Krista's, he decided to behead her body. Because remember, he forgot his wallet. He came back. And when he came back, that's when he decided to behead Krista. Danny then continued on with his confession, writing, quote, Then I sat up Miss Hoyt's body. So I was sitting on the edge of the waterbed with its arms resting on its knees. A stream of blood poured and pooled at its feet.

Then I left that way, sitting up, end quote. This guy's, he's the worst. He's the absolute worst. And that's why I said what I said earlier. Just an absolute monster, sociopath, no empathy, nothing. He feels nothing. He just, he wants what he wants. And I do think there's information in here that he didn't provide the first time with Bobby, which makes his confession that much more compelling. He's given guilt knowledge. He's given details about the case that at that point were probably

only known to law enforcement, the means in which he carried out these crimes. There's certain details that have been released, but when he starts describing the screwdriver and the different methodologies that were in place to carry out this crime. The details of the sexual assaults, which are terrifying and horrifying. The details of the sexual assault, absolutely. But even the moving of the bookcase and things like that, where they go into a crime scene, I'm talking about detectives here, they're taking photos and videos of everything. And in the moment, because the people who live there are deceased- You don't know if that's the way it was set up.

It could be the way it was set up. The bookshelf was moved over here because they were trying to do something behind it. Who knows? There's a million explanations, but it would be something that a good detective would notice and make note of to say, huh, this seems like it's kind of out of place. I don't know what it means. It may mean nothing, but I'm going to write it down or I'm going to take a photo of it just so I have it. Maybe there's some scratch marks on the floor from the bookshelf being moved. There could be a million different things that would hopefully stand out to the investigator and there would be a running log, a running log both written but also would be backed up by photos supporting whatever notations were made. Now you have this person come forward and they start to describe what they did. And out of nowhere,

they mentioned this bookshelf and the fact that they moved it, something that no one other than people who lived at that apartment would know about. It's not describing the actual murder, but it's also almost more important than the murder itself because it's describing something that you wouldn't normally find in a household. This was specific to this apartment. And you couldn't just sort of guess. Yeah, you couldn't guess. Right. It's not like you can say, oh, you know what? They hung the TV on the wall in the living room. No shit. Everybody does. This is something that was probably only in their apartment at the time. Not many people just have a random bookshelf floating in their living room. So that to me, as I'm hearing this statement, that's the piece of

information that stands out to me almost the most. That and the use of the screwdriver, because you'll probably have some type of tooling impression that I don't know if it was done, but we as investigators have the ability to actually take a mold of that impression. So let's say it's a flathead screwdriver and you wiggle it back and forth. You'll actually leave an indentation from that flathead screwdriver in the molding of the door. What we can do, it's almost like a silicone, like a gel, like a paste. You put it on there, you rub it in, it dries relatively quickly, and then you can peel it off. And on the backside of it, it leaves a reverse mold impression of that tooling so that if

you happen to find the screwdriver later, let's say Danny Rowling had his kill kit and you find it, you could take that screwdriver and literally lay it in the impression that you took to see if it matches. So I don't know if they did that, but even him saying it, if they had taken photos of the tooling impressions on the doors before leaving the crime scene, that is again, something you can use to verify and validate what Danny Rawling is saying. And I think that they can even verify and validate that Danny Rawling is saying. And I think that they can even verify and validate that the bookshelf was moved from the living room to her room because there's going to be like marks left, you know, certain scratches on the floor.

Yeah, exactly. So so they can prove this. Yeah. But that could have been something that was done by the victims prior because they were considering moving it. But when he points it out, that's when it's game over. That's a smoking gun to me. That to me is very compelling. And yes, the description of what he actually did to the victims is equally important. Describing where he stabbed her, all these things. But that bookshelf, that's one of a kind right there. Yeah. If the,

if the victim was stabbed, most people in the community can probably guess where she was stabbed, but the bookshelf that's, that's a good one. It's weird though, that she didn't notice the bookshelf was moved. You know, you walk into your apartment, we've all done it. You walk into your apartment, you have roommates. Maybe she did notice it. Maybe she's like, what the hell is going on with that? And not knowing that it was enough. You don't think, oh, maybe someone broke into my apartment and moved it. Yeah. You're thinking like how, and you're starting to wonder like, when did I move this? And so you're thinking about when you could have possibly moved it. Cause your first thought is not somebody moved, somebody broke

in, moved the bookshelf so they could hide behind it and surprise me. Exactly, you're right. But this is all happening in probably under 15 seconds. So there's not a lot of time to process. Well, we're going to take a quick break and we're going to come back and talk more about what Danny told Russell.

So Russell told Danny's defense team that Danny also spoke about the night he broke into Manny Taboda and Tracy Paula's apartment with the goal of raping and killing Tracy. Danny said when he got inside, he found two bedrooms. In the first bedroom he went into, he saw Manny sleeping in bed. After seeing a man in there, Danny hesitated to go through with his plan to attack Tracy because now he'd have to fight with a man. But Danny really wanted to rape Tracy, so he decided to go through with it and stab Manny. As Danny plunged the knife into Manny, he woke up and fought back, at one point nearly overpowering Danny. But in the end, Danny managed to kill him. Afterward, Danny went into the hallway and found Tracy standing there with something in her hand. She then ran back to her room and shut the door. Danny thought she had a

weapon in her hand, so he got nervous. He kicked Tracy's door in and realized that she was holding a curling iron, not a weapon, which made him feel better. Tracy then looked at him and said, you're the one. And Danny responded, yeah, I'm the one. He then followed through with his plan to rape and kill her. So I believe he, when she said you're the one, she meant like the Gainesville Ripper, right? Because this is, there's already been three victims. It's all in the same area. Yeah, they're aware. Now, in addition to sharing details about the Ripper murders, Danny also told Russell he had been visited by demons. He described a specific incident where a demon went up the wall and around a curtain, bringing a rush of cold air with it. Danny said he was Yenrad, that's Danny backwards, when he committed robberies.

Because remember, he's got multiple personalities. And he was Gemini when he committed the murders. Danny also gave Russell a poem entitled Gemini, which read, quote, The moan, the groan, the silver moon shone, the whisper, the cry, dead leaves fly. Through the haze it smells your fears, then it appears, your nightmare come to life. A maniac with a knife, the moan, the groan, the silver moon shone, the whisper, End quote. The silver moon shone. The whisper, the cry. Into the night comes Gemini. And tonight you die. End quote. I think a lot of killers try to do this, by the way.

They try to make their crimes, their murders, their desire to kill for the sake of just killing because they're horrible people. They're evil. They try to make it seem deeper, like more complex, like more poetic like this. You know, oh, it's my multiple personalities and there's demons and the silver moon shone and tonight in Gemini's arms you die. Like almost this like fictional Hollywood version of what a killer is because it's more scary than if it's something supernatural, if it's something that it's like, oh, this is just the fate and this is what it should be and kind of like Zodiac Killer and Mysterious Clues and all of these like weird little things that kind of make it almost, I guess, fictional seeming. You know, they try to make themselves seem more important, more scary, more big. When in reality, it's not poetic. It's not like, oh, the silver moon and the dead leaves flying and victims turned red and close your eyes, my dear, and sleep.

You aren't this cloaked figure floating through the night with Satan at your feet. You're a mentally ill, demented asshole who takes people's lives for no other reason than your own short-term gratification. It's not fancy. It's not poetic. It's not mysterious at all. It's just you're a horrible person. You're a shitty asshole person who kills people because you just feel like it. And you have mental health problems.

There's nothing poetic or mysterious about that. But do you see what I mean? They try to make themselves seem more like interesting, more like, oh, I'm this figure that comes in the night and you'll never know when I'm coming and then I disappear as quickly as I showed up. You're not. You're not some supernatural enigmatic figure

born from the night. You're an asshole. That's it. You know what I mean? Have you ever seen the movie Joker with Joaquin? Of course. Of course. Yeah.

I feel, and this is before Joker, but I feel like a lot of these guys, they're the main character in their own story. They're the villain. This is their origin story. And it's kind of like the movie joker if you guys get that reference where in in these guys minds they are this the main character of their whole life and they're writing the script as they go and so it's important for them to create not only the side quests but also the narrative and the backstory behind it to add flair.

Romanticize it a little bit. And so they are living this life and in their head, it's a movie. And like I said, they're the villain, but they're the main character. And there are movies like Joker where you almost find yourself in a weird way, rooting for the bad guy, right? Isn't that weird how that happens? Because it's a movie and you know it's a movie and you know it's not real, right?

No, but think about Joker for a second. Why do we, besides the fact that it's a movie, right? And I hope people, most people have seen this movie. If you haven't, it's incredible. You have to watch it. There's another one coming out. You saw that? There's another one coming out.

But this origin story of Joker, I found myself as a law enforcement officer and he's a bad guy but because of what he went through there's a small part of you or i should say me that was rooting for him in a way this weird way and it's incredible how the director and joaquin and everyone involved is is it Joaquin or Joaquin? Joaquin. Joaquin with an N almost at the end, right? So it's amazing and it's a testament to them, but you found yourself with this horrible

person killing innocent people and yet you felt for him in a way. And I say all this to say, this is how these people view themselves. They are the victim. And in their minds, they're only serving justice for how they were wronged. And I think that Joker is a very good example of how that emotion, even though you know what you're watching is wrong, you have found a way to empathize or sympathize with them and feel sorry for them because they feel sorry for themselves. Well, that's because media, like many art forms, has that unique ability because you understand what you're watching is fiction and media can show you a real life person, right? Nobody's 100% good.

Nobody's 100% bad. This shows you the gray areas, the different contrasts in every one of us, right? None of us are 100% good. None of us are 100% bad. And obviously- Speak for yourself. It's, yeah, okay. Pure.

It's exaggerated. Pure over here on this end of the screen. Pure hero. Hundo P. Okay. I do the holy water before I walk into the studio. Yeah. Bless you, my son. And you got to kiss it.

Speak for yourself. So anyways, it's exacerbated and exaggerated in films where it's like this horrible, this joke or a horrible, but it makes people feel seen and heard because they're like, okay, yes, I want to go into a film, not really knowing who's the good guy and who's the bad guy because everybody has shades of gray and everybody has various levels of good and bad in them. And I find myself oftentimes rooting for the villain because as a human, I think we can all relate to that kind of character a little bit, you know, especially in today's society where it's all very black and white. Like if you make any mistakes, you're going to be destroyed for it. You're going to be, it's going to be talked about forever. That's what's going to,

that's what's going to stick with you. Whereas humans in general, they make mistakes, they do bad things, but they also do good things. So I think that art and media gives us a chance to experience these kinds of things safely, knowing that they're absolutely fictional but you don't watch a true crime story right that knowing that there's there's a real person on the end of it knowing that there's real victims you don't find yourself empathizing with danny rolling right and there there lies the very distinctive and important difference danny rolling can go yeah he can i do think that when he's telling these stories and he's writing these poems, it's for everyone to be immersed in his movie. His narrative.

He wants everyone to see himself the way he sees himself, which is this glorified version of some dark antihero where you're just a mentally ill loser that took your pain out on others. There's nothing special, unique or, you know, stand out about you. You're a loser. You're an asshole. That's it. And nobody wants to look at themselves like that, right? He's taking you along this arc. In his mind, he's the hero. To everyone else, he's the villain. That's the disconnect that he's not finding. Because he's talking about himself through the haze. It smells your fears. Then it appears your nightmare come to life. A maniac with a knife like he's thinking of himself.

I can smell your fear. No, you can't. You walk around peeping in people's windows until you see a cute girl that you could never get in real life. And you're going to take her for yourself. And then you break in. That's it. You're a common break-in murdering asshole. You're not like, I can smell your fear. No, dude. No, you cannot. Stop it. Stop it. So yeah, he's stupid. After talking to Danny's defense team about all the things Danny told him, Russell went back to his cell and grabbed writings that Danny

had given him. He then handed everything over to the defense team. Over the next few months, Danny's attorneys continued building their defense for trial, which was fast approaching, with the jury selection scheduled to begin February 15, 1994, in Alchua County, which is home to Gainesville. Surprisingly, the defense did not request a change of venue. They explained to the media that they didn't make this request because there had been so much publicity around the case. They didn't think they'd find a jury anywhere in the state that hadn't heard about the Gainesville Ripper murders, which is refreshing to hear because a lot of defense teams are like, oh, let's change the, you know, Scott Peterson's defense team did that. Like, oh, we got to change

the, you know, the venue of the trial. And it's like, it's the Peterson case. It's Lacey Peterson. Everyone's in California has heard about it. There's no place safe for you to go. There's no place safe for your client to go. Lewis and the police banned from the trial, but of course, because the police did their due diligence in this, and at least this portion of the investigation, they were unsuccessful in getting these motions to go through. So the defense decided to focus on highlighting as much reasonable doubt in the prosecution's case as possible. Their strategy was to argue to the jury that the prosecution's case was purely circumstantial. There were no eyewitnesses, and it took detectives four months before they even considered Danny a suspect. The defense planned to tell the jury that Bobby and Danny did speak to the police,

but it was Bobby who did most of the talking, and Bobby couldn't be trusted. He was a convicted killer who thought he was getting a deal. The defense also had plans to argue that some of the evidence found at the murder scene had never been definitively linked to Danny, and while his semen was allegedly found

at some of the scenes, DNA testing was new and couldn't be trusted. Here's my question. Why is Danny getting these defense teams and these lawyers and now having them try to get him out of these things that he eagerly, willingly and multiple times confessed to? Why wouldn't you just take the sentence at this point? Like you did it. You told everybody you did it. What's the deal? When you can't discredit the evidence and you can't discredit the actual confession, you go after how the confession was obtained. But why would Danny willingly give this confession to Bobby, to the police, to this other dude? They're going to make a defense for it. They're going to say it was under duress.

It was under false. It was, he wasn't in the right mental state. They're going to try everything under the sun. We talk about it in all these cases where when the evidence is ironclad, like if it's a physical piece of evidence that police find, the defense will go after how that evidence was obtained up. You didn't have the right will go after how that evidence was obtained up. You didn't have the right to go there. Illegal search and seizure. Yeah. You found a knife that had a note with it that said, Hey, Derek Levasseur killed this person. However, you got the knife out of a car. You didn't have a search warrant for, and I'm not saying that they're wrong. I'm not demonizing the defense team for doing that. That's their job.

And we don't want detectives or investigators in general going beyond the scope of the constitution in order to justify, you know, what they're doing, right? We don't want to get into the practice of law enforcement, violating your rights in order because they feel you're guilty of something. Because in some instances, and not all of them, but some, they're wrong. And so by manipulating the facts to get what they want, the end doesn't justify the means. So this is what the defense's job is. They don't care what you have. You got confessions, you got evidence. We're going to start to go after the evidence itself. And we're going to start to go after the evidence itself.

And we're going to start to say that the confession is invalid because of X, Y, and Z. I didn't even know it was going to go there. But when you were saying it earlier, I had a feeling. I had a feeling that this would come up and it does happen. I understand it. I know it's cliche, but it's part of the game. It just feels like somebody who wants to talk so openly and readily about their crimes wouldn't even, when the lawyers were like, oh, we're going to get you out of this. He'd kind of be like, why?

Like, this is my life now. Like, I'm the Gainesville Ripper, you know? But he's hoping he can say what he wanted to say and still be a free man one day. Imagine that. You know, hey, I confess to it and I'm walking around. That's the ultimate. That's the goal. He's in the courtroom and he's looking at the jury and he's like, I can smell your fear.

OK, dude, let's take our last break and we'll be right back. Now, while the prosecution was putting the finishing touches on their case, they planned to overwhelm the jurors with wave after wave of physical evidence, which pointed to Danny and only Danny as the Gainesville Ripper. Then they were going to put Bobby on the stand to testify about Danny's confession. The prosecution told the media they felt very confident in the case they had built. One of their only concerns was the jury, who would have to see 17 crime scene photos of the victims. The prosecution was worried the jurors might need counseling after the trial, noting that the grand jurors who had indicted Danny, they definitely did have to go to counseling after seeing the photos. By the start of February 1994, the courthouse was preparing for the trial, which was expected to

last at least 10 weeks and receive a ton of media attention. Almost every major national news outlet planned to be there, and the TV show A Current Affair even made the tasteful decision to hire Sondra London to be their courtroom correspondent. To prepare for the trial, highly sensitive metal detectors were installed at the courthouse's main entrance, and extra security was hired for the days that court was in session. They also made plans for Danny to wear a bulletproof vest under his suit. Finally, the morning of February 15th arrived and jury selection in Danny's trial was scheduled to begin. Now, Tracy Paul, as his father, told the media that he'd been dreading the day since the moment Tracy was found brutally

murdered. However, he was relieved that the trial had finally come. He said, quote, deep down inside, I want people to know what happened to Tracy. I'm not ashamed of what happened to her. She did nothing wrong. People have to know what Rowling has done. They have to know that, end quote. But I completely understand what he's saying because as the parent of these victims, as Tracy's father, you're going to want to be in the courtroom to represent her, to show your support for her and for her fellow victims. But now you have to listen in great detail to what happened to her, which, as we know already, is horrendous.

No parent wants that to happen to their child, and parent wants to hear maybe from the mouth of the killer himself what exactly happened to your child at the hands of such a brutally violent, horrible individual. So I can understand that you would be dreading that. I don't know how I would do it. I don't know. I'd want to be there, but I might have to put headphones in or something when that portion of the trial was happening because I just don't know how you would ever be the same or how you could ever really like feel an ounce of happiness in life after that ever again. I just don't know. Stephanie, we're sitting here talking about a paragraph or so ago. Yeah.

We're talking about the specifics of what happened. Yeah. Okay. It's not even my relative. I know. And my stomach's turning. Yeah. Okay. It's not even my relative. I know. And my stomach's turning. Exactly. Okay. So, and I think I speak for everyone who's watching or listening to this right now. I, I, I concur with everything you said. I'm not even a go where my brain is going with it, how I feel about it, you know? Yeah. How I feel about it is like, why are we putting extra security in metal detectors and giving this guy a bulletproof vest? I hope he dies.

I mean. I'm like, this is taxpayer money going to all these extremes to keep this guy safe. When he raped this girl, she said, you're hurting me. And he said, take the pain, bitch. Die, bitch. I hope someone does shoot you. I hope they're shot. You know, you got a bulletproof vest on, but your head's still there.

You know, that's the way I'm looking at it. That's how I feel about these people. So, yeah, I'll never forget those things that he said to his victims. Like I will not forget that. So how is Tracy's father ever going to forget it or find a moment of peace again in his life? We're not condoning anything. I have to say that for legal reasons, but I can't, I can never pronounce the guy's name. It's Gary Plouch or Plotch. I can't, I can never pronounce it, but it's that video where there's a rapist. He molested his, his, a child and the father hides by the pay phones. This is an old video. And as they're walking by the father turns around and shoots the rapist in the head. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. You you know that's all i'll say what am i

supposed to do am i supposed to feel bad am i supposed to like cry a tear no i mean it's like to bring it back to earth you don't know how you would react in these situations until you're in them and i think at this point i know i know how you'd react in that situation i think i do too i think i do too but you never know i've seen a time to kill or law abiding citizen is another one, but, uh, but it's one of those things where taken, even we talk, what is it taken? I think we're just going to keep naming the movies. Yeah, no, but yeah, pretty much. I think about my shooting that we talked about last week or the week, whatever week it was, maybe it was last week where you don't know how you're going to react until you put in your, how your, what your mind's going to do in those moments. So I think for these parents, you'd have to listen

to them, but I even saw something from Gabby Petito, Joe Petito's father today. He put out, it's the three-year anniversary today. I think at that moment you die and then you become something else where you're no longer living to enjoy life, but you're living with a purpose and that purpose is for your loved one. Your first thought is to get your family member justice. And then once you do that, it's to get justice for others. But you're never alive again. I don't know if you're ever happy.

I don't know if you're ever truly yourself, but you just become a shell of who you were. You go there, you go through the motions. You want to see this person held accountable. I'm sure they're having a lot of the thoughts that we're kind of describing here. And yet they don't act on it for one reason or another. What, why that is God only knows God only knows,

but I give more credit than, than I don't, cause I don't know if I could do it. This has never happened to me, obviously. And God willing, it never will. Right. But if anybody's do it. This has never happened to me, obviously, and God willing, it never will. Right.

But if anybody's ever been through anything like very traumatic to the point where you do feel like all the joy and all the light has gone out of the world, you'll know that some some mornings you'll wake up and there'll be like a 12 second period where you forget what happened, where you wake up and you think everything is as it was. You're happy, everything's good. And then the realization of the reality that you now live in hits you. And that hits you like a ton of bricks. It's almost like that piece coming back for just a few seconds while you're still like on the cusp of sleep and waking and everything's good and your life is good again. And then all of a sudden you're hit with the reality of what life actually is. And it feels like you just got smashed with it all over again. So to all of the people, all the parents it's so brave that they go to these court cases. They go to these trials. They listen to these details because that's how they show their support, and that's how they show that their loved one is still this important person that deserves justice.

And I just don't know how. I don't know how they do it. They're living for them. Yes, they are. They are living for them. So they're going to get this trial going. Everything's ready. The parents of these victims are most likely dreading everything, but also knowing that this is the next natural step to getting justice, having this person face some consequences.

But then just before jury selection officially got underway, Danny asked to address the court. He then stood and stated, quote, Your Honor, I've been running from first one thing and then another all my life, but there are some things that you just can't run from, and this being one of those, end quote. Good for him. Good for him. Danny then made a shocking move and pleaded guilty to all charges, and the judge accepted his pleas. And just like that, the prosecution and the defense no longer had to argue their cases. And I will say, this guy's a piece of shit. He sucks. He doesn't deserve ever to have breathed any air. But I do have respect for him for this.

Because there's so many other killers that don't ever do this. That they make these parents and these victims and these family members and community members and taxpayers go through this whole extensive long trial when they know what they did. And so I have respect for him to stand up and say, this is one of those things you can't run from. I plead guilty to all charges. This is this is this is respectable, at least. Kohlberger. Sorry. Right.

Exactly. Kohlberger, like Brian Laundrie, who, you know, killed himself and still in the note he left behind insisted he had done nothing wrong to Gabby Petito and that she had hurt herself. And then she, you know, asked him to end her life. You know, people who do horrible things and then still can't take accountability, even when they know that there's tons of evidence stacked up against them. So I do have a little bit of respect for this. What's your take on it? Do you kind of think like it was it was the right move? And at least, you know, you did a lot of bad things, but you did one right thing to try to make it better, I guess. All you have left to offer is an answer for the family. That's it.

And so it's a weird thing to give this guy credit. But yeah, I completely agree. That's why I mentioned Kohlberger. And for the record, for all the lawyers out there, he's innocent right now until proven guilty in a court of law. But there's opportunities where you can avoid making the families of these victims go relive everything for your own self-serving purposes. And if you did it and you know you did it and it's pretty damn near certain you did it through the evidence, why not just give them something? But you're asking someone who is willing to commit something like this to have some sense of sympathy for the family, you know, and they just they don't.

They don't. They're a sociopath for the reason they don't feel they don't have empathy. So that's why they will go forward and not only do what they do, but then try to get away with it. So yeah, on one hand, I give him credit, but it is at this point, I would rather him just not do it altogether. Well, so now, yeah, obviously, but then now the prosecution to defense, they no longer have to argue these cases that they'd spent literally years preparing for. However, Danny's trial wasn't over yet, they still needed to go through the penalty phase where the jury would determine whether he would receive the death penalty or life in prison. And so now saying it that way, I wonder if he's hoping that his

admission of guilt will save him from the death penalty. Like, look, I did the right thing. You know, I made a lot of mistakes. I was a horrible person, but at least at the end, I did do the right thing. And I confess to this, will you save me from death? You know, maybe, maybe that was what he was hoping. Makes sense again, self-serving reason. Right, exactly. And you just never know, you know, it was the right move for the families, but was it also a move that would benefit him in some way? The jury selection process ended up taking weeks because the judge wanted to make sure the final jurors were, quote, without a doubt, impartial and unbiased, end quote. They didn't want to have to go through this again.

The state had already spent $6 million and three and a half years investigating the murders. So after a few weeks, the jury was seated and opening statements in the penalty phase began. In case you need a refresher on what the penalty phase is, this is where the prosecution and the defense try to convince the jury of what Danny's sentence should be. The prosecution would put forth evidence of aggravating factors, which they believed proved he needed the death penalty, while the defense would present evidence of mitigating factors, which they believed showed Danny needed mercy and should get life in prison instead of the death penalty. So after the prosecution and defense presented their arguments, the jury would decide

if the mitigating factors outweighed the aggravating factors. If they didn't, then Danny would get the death penalty. Now, the prosecution told the jury that they had identified four aggravating factors to prove Danny deserved the death penalty. The first factor was that the murders of Christy, Sonia, Krista, Manny, and Tracy were committed in conjunction with another felony, armed burglary, and in the cases of Christy, Krista, and Tracy, also rape. The second aggravating factor was that the murders were heinous, atrocious, and cruel. The third was that each of the murders was committed in a cold, calculated, and premeditated manner. And the fourth was that Danny had 12 prior violent felonies spanning 15 years in six different jurisdictions, making him a felon with a violent history.

The prosecution told the jury that no matter what mitigating factors the defense brought up, nothing would outweigh these four aggravating factors. And now talking about that, too, I wonder if Danny was like, know, torturing and murdering them, maybe it's going to be less likely that they think I deserve life in prison rather than the death penalty. So I don't want the details of my heinous acts read aloud in court. I kind of want to just brush over that for a little bit. Now, during the defense's opening statement, they acknowledged that Danny was guilty of the armed burglaries and murders of Christy, Sonia, Krista, Tracy, and Manny, as well as the rapes of Christy, Krista, and Tracy. However, they argued this didn't automatically mean Danny deserved the death penalty. There were mitigating

factors that they believed proved Danny should receive life in prison instead. Factors like how Danny had the emotional age of a 15-year-old and that contributed to his mental condition at the time of the offenses. The defense argued that all of these factors would outweigh the aggravating factors that the prosecution put forth and proved that Danny should get a life sentence instead of a death penalty. That was the best they had. Like, no, absolutely not. These are not even great mitigating circumstances. So once the opening statements were over, it was time for the prosecution and the defense to fully present their cases to the jury. And when they were done,

the jury would officially have to decide if Danny Rowling would live or die. And we're going to have to save that for part five, which is going to conclude our deep dive into the Gainesville Ripper case. And trust me, it's not over. There are still things that are going to pop up that are going to surprise you. There's still things that Danny Rowling is going to slip in and get under there before this story comes to an end. But as of now, what are you thinking? Do you think that these mitigating circumstances that the defense brought up outweigh the aggravating circumstances in any way, shape or form? No, of course not. It's just ridiculous. But I do think now hearing this, it gives more credence to what you had suggested, that this wasn't just some guy who was coming forward

to prevent the family from having to sit through a trial where they would have to relive what their loved ones went through. He wasn't doing this for them. He was doing it for himself. And now with the defense going the way they're going, trying to avoid the death penalty, maybe this was a conversation that was had amongst him and his legal team where they said, if you really want to confess, that's the route you want to go. It could benefit you in a certain way where if you agree to plead guilty to everything, maybe we can keep you in prison for the rest of your life instead of getting the death penalty. So maybe that was a strategic move. This wasn't just some spontaneous confession that he decided to do without the support of his team.

I definitely agree. If he did that, his lawyers knew he was going to do that. Yeah. I think it's interesting. They say he has an emotional age of 15. He has the emotional age of a 15-year-old. Do they mean like he has the IQ of a 15-year-old or like the emotional state of a 15-year-old? Do they mean like he has the IQ of a 15-year-old or like the emotional state of a 15-year-old? Because I don't really see how that makes a difference. The way he wrote his poetry, the way he was so vulnerable and open with his feelings for Sondra London, he seems to be emotionally aware, right? He seems to feel emotions and be able to express them quite well. So what is this emotional age? They're not saying the intelligence level of a 15-year-old. They're not saying the mental state of a 15-year-old. They're saying the emotional age of a 15-year-old. Do 15-year-olds go out and rape and murder people all the time? Well, that's just it, right? Right.

That's just it. He had the ability to carry out five murders without being apprehended immediately afterwards. So I think he's, I think he's suitable for whatever penalty he's given here. I mean, they could mean that he has, he doesn't have great impulse control, right? Great. But perfect. More of a reason to, so basically what you're saying is there's no rehabilitation he can't he can't go back out there yeah no so we all we all agree then right that settles it that's the end of it you know they're also saying like oh he feels remorseful for his actions um and his family has a history of mental illness and his ability to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law was impaired because of his mental illness. But they never actually really say like what his

mental illness is. Like, was he diagnosed with a an actual mental illness? Was he examined by a psychiatrist? And the psychiatrist was like, oh, he's got, you know, antisocial personality disorder or this, this or that. Not really. They're just kind of saying like, oh, he was in a high emotional state and he had like trauma. And, you know, because of this, this mental illness, he wasn't able to conform to the requirements of society and the law. So I don't, yeah, it just honestly, it sounds like they're on the side of the prosecution at this point. So I don't, yeah, it just, honestly, it sounds like they're, they're on the side of the prosecution at this point. So I don't know, but yeah, we will see what happens next time. Final part next week, right? Yeah. You have final thoughts about this part?

No, I mean, overall it's, it's one of these things where we're going through the progression. It sounds like this guy was trying to get a deal for people he cared about, and his plan all along was to ultimately confess to it, to hopefully avoid the death penalty. Think about it. He confesses. He does it through the conduit of his loved one, and so they benefit off it financially,

which he can't benefit from because he's in prison. But then once they get their, you know, their take on this whole situation, he can confess publicly in a court of law and hopefully avoid the death penalty, which would allow him to at least spend the rest of his life in prison, but with his loved one coming to visit him frequently, you know, one of those things where they both benefit. And his and his loved one being his his loved one being his fiancee, who will theoretically become his wife. And then whatever money she makes from the sale of the book will then legally be his as well. Technically, yeah, technically. So it sounds to me like a more calculated play here. When you read it quickly, it sounds like a guy who's just impulsive and just can't

shut his mouth. But I feel like this whole thing was very methodical. That seems that way. Like he knew from the beginning what way he was going to go with this. It sounds like it. And I think that's not a stretch when you consider how methodical he was about these killings as well. Yes, they were impulsive in the moment when he did them, but he took measures to avoid apprehension and to also get the drop on his victims. So this is someone who definitely thinks about his actions before doing them, even though it may not be a long thinking process. And the more and more I hear, the more and more I believe that Danny Rowling was planning this all along. This was the outcome. He met Sandra. He wanted to make sure she was taken care of, make sure the money filtered back into him through marriage and

hook up his boy, Bobby. Initially, obviously that kind of fizzled. And then by confessing and being the quote unquote hero, you know, by, by not causing the family to have to listen to what he actually did to them, to did to the victims, then he also benefits from that as well by being allowed to stay alive. So it's all about Danny Rowling, no one else. And it started that way and it looks like it's going to end that way. And I'm looking forward to hearing the end of it

and seeing how this all plays out. You kind of gave away a little bit there that he's dead. I don't know if he died because of the death penalty or he died due to natural causes in prison, but I'm interested to see how it all plays out. I'm also interested to see if we find out more about Sandra as well, how she made out in this whole situation, because I do think a lot of people are curious about that. I know I am. Yes, we will. And I think that a lot of the questions that I sort of posed just now where I was like, well, did a psychiatrist examine him and come up with this legitimate mental health disorder, et cetera, et cetera? Like what kind of things happened to him in his childhood that would be considered mitigating?

Those are going to be answered in the fifth and final episode. So everybody stay tuned. Make sure you tune in for that because a lot of – yeah, it's going to be kind of wrapped up and we're. So everybody stay tuned. Make sure you tune in for that because a lot of, yeah, it's going to be kind of wrapped up and we're going to have better understanding of what happened and why, yes, the jury did maybe struggle a little bit

deciding whether or not to give Danny Rawlings the death penalty. Yep. We will be back next week. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. Oh, real quick. Real, real, real, real quick. We get a lot of fan mail and I just happened to be opening one before we

started. Shout out to Candace Bryant. She sent us a bunch of bracelets. If you're watching on YouTube, they're all our different sayings and some of them are like pineapples and stuff. Yo, is that the same?

There was a girl at crime con. They gave me a bunch of bracelets. I don't know. on them they were so awesome i still have them it's the same one yeah this is awesome i love you guys can see on my camera might be a little blurry because it's out of focus but this one has pineapples but um but yeah that's all our sayings and stuff so thank you candace bryant a lot of you guys send us stuff we don't always promote it on the on. It's a lot. Some of it's personal. But just to put it out there, we always are very appreciative of everybody who sends these things and takes the time to make them.

And there's usually these nice notes that go along with it, which was the case here as well. So shout out to Candice Bryant for sending those over to us. Thank you. We really do appreciate it. I love some friendship bracelets, man. We got you covered. We got you covered. Thank you so much. There's your shout out. We really do appreciate it. I love some friendship bracelets, man. We got you covered. We got you covered. Thank you so much.

There's your shout out. We will be back next week. Like Stephanie said, final part of the Gainesville Ripper. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon. Bye.